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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM

Title: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM
I thought this might be an interesting topic-- thinking of any thoughts you have on DT songs or albums that you think will spark mass debate and not sit well with the general crowd.

For me, I have never liked the Glass Prison much at all, and it probably doesn't rank in the top 40 for me. I think Octavarium (the song) is leagues above A Change of Seasons. I think Octavarium is a fantastic album (way better than Awake). I also love the Shattered Fortress, The Dark Eternal Night, This is the Life, and Far From Heaven. And probably the major one is that Awake is one of my least favorite DT albums. It has  a couple good songs, but most of it is bland and a drag to sit through. The songs on Awake are by far my least listened to DT songs, sans WDaDU.

Forgive me if a thread like this has already been created, but otherwise I think this should be pretty interesting. Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 17, 2012, 08:29:41 PM
Metropolis is one of the weaker tracks on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
I agree that Octavarium is leagues above A Change Of Seasons. :tup

I also think that SFAM, while a good album, is horribly overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

YES.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 17, 2012, 08:51:30 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

Looking over my top 50, it looks like it's 2nd best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:52:50 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

YES.
I think I Walk Beside You is my least favorite Octavarium song (I don't get why people don't like Never Enough, even if it is Musey). But I do like The Answer Lies Within a lot, and I think it's their best done poppy song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- In The Name of God is bad.
- Innocence Faded is without a doubt a top 10 DT song.
- So is The Great Debate.
- DT needs a return to form and stop this stream of bad albums since SDOIT.
- Falling into Infinity is a top 5 DT album.
- The majority of DT's songs get boring when you've heard them a lot.

That enough for you? Yes, I specifically pointed them out as facts, though they're all my opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 09:00:38 PM
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- In The Name of God is bad.
- Innocence Faded is without a doubt a top 10 DT song.
- So is The Great Debate.
- DT needs a return to form and stop this stream of bad albums since SDOIT.
- Falling into Infinity is a top 5 DT album.
- The majority of DT's songs get boring when you've heard them a lot.

 :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 09:04:28 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

I can't stand Constant Motion, it doesn't even come close to DT par for me. Interestingly enough, I don't like metal all too much, but Raw Dog really gets my motor running. I love the weird scales and chords they use, and the use of harpejji in particular. They should've released it as a single or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: senecadawg2 on December 17, 2012, 09:05:26 PM
SDOIT, the song, is long/tiresome and kind of a bore.
Octavarium is an all around disappointment, with even the title team unworthy of a place in my top 10.
The count of Tuscany is goofy, but its also a hell of a lot better than bother of the aforementioned epics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2012, 09:06:28 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Constant Motion is great. :tup I'm not really a fan of Raw Dog, but it's definitely nowhere near as bad as the reputation it seems to have here. It's a bit repetitive, but not bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Heretic on December 17, 2012, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- So is The Great Debate. (Top 10)
- The majority of DT's songs get boring when you've heard them a lot.

These. I haven't listened to a full DT album in about 8 months.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: Heretic on December 17, 2012, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- So is The Great Debate. (Top 10)
- The majority of DT's songs get boring when you've heard them a lot.

These. I haven't listened to a full DT album in about 8 months.

Heretic!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ħ on December 17, 2012, 09:25:23 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it
Yep, both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ytsejammin on December 17, 2012, 09:27:48 PM
Scenes is a great album , but the storyline is a little corny. I also have trouble sometimes relating to the spiritual afterlife theme of the album.   

M:2000 DVD is an absolute classic concert , but the concept footage leaves a bit to be desired. They should have used more stills instead of the footage.

On the ToT tour in San Francisco , "Finally Free" was arguably a set - eater. The place would have gone crazy if they'd have done "Home" or something else in that space. Still , I liked their rotating setlist policy from the time.

There are other performances edited in on certain songs for the purpose of repair work on various Ytsejam Bootleg releases. I challenge anybody to watch WHen Dream and Day Reunite and not notice repair work sticking out like a sore thumb. On Bucharest 2002 their is a funny edit on LITS. It's not on the original bootleg.

Alot of the vocals on SCORE are from a studio in Canada.

In spite of everything , I still love this artist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 17, 2012, 09:28:50 PM
Quote from: Ytsejammin on December 17, 2012, 09:27:48 PM
Alot of the vocals on SCORE are from a studio in Canada.

 ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ħ on December 17, 2012, 09:29:46 PM
Quote from: Ytsejammin on December 17, 2012, 09:27:48 PM
Alot of the vocals on SCORE are from a studio in Canada.
Um...no? And lol that's not even an opinion, that's just a false fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 17, 2012, 09:34:34 PM
I hope this thread won't turn into Score's vocals were dubbed or not debate. It's really getting annoying. James himself confirmed that, expect some small touches vocals were not dubbed on Score. Any further debate about this matter is just baseless and false.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Glass Moonlight on December 17, 2012, 09:45:34 PM
Awake is their best album
When Dream and Day Unite is awesome
Falling Into Infinity is a top 4 album
Images and Words is somewhat overrated
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Unlegit on December 17, 2012, 09:47:20 PM
This Dying Soul is amazing.

I dunno, that's all I can think of, and that's not even that "controversial".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: manticore999 on December 17, 2012, 09:54:26 PM
ACOS is awful and I just can't listen to it.  8vm is even worse.  Not a good song on it.  And don't get me started on TOT and SC.  Let's just forget they even exist.  Not hard, co sidering howbad they are. 

Oh yeah, and I'm not being facetious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dacling on December 17, 2012, 10:36:02 PM
The Great Debate is top 20 for me.

FII is by far the worst sounding album despite it's good songs it's even worse than SC excluding Anna Lee and Hell's Kitchen.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is a full song. Don't care what anyone says.

Lie on Once In a LIVEtime is awful and it is by far the worst version of the song I have ever heard.

The Dark Eternal Night off Chaos in Motion is good.

My friend likes A Rite of Passage and I am not ok with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on December 17, 2012, 10:47:52 PM
Quote from: Dacling on December 17, 2012, 10:36:02 PM
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is a full song. Don't care what anyone says.

That's not even an opinion, it's a fact. It's presented as one on Score, and MP said explicitly that it is a song. The correct term isn't song, though when people say "song", they often mean "piece" which is correct. It would fall closer to a symphony or suite if I'm not mistaken.

Ontopic, The Great Debate is top 20. ADTOE is in my top 3. You Not Me is actually kind of enjoyable, despite it being one of my least favourite DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 17, 2012, 11:10:23 PM
Prophets of War is amazing. I blast it when it comes on when I'm driving. Hell I blast all of SC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 17, 2012, 11:22:18 PM
Here's a bunch of really controversial ones.

JP's best solo is the outro of The Best of Times, which is a top 10 DT song along with The Ministry of Lost Souls.
ADTOE was a step back for the band in terms of both arrangements and memorability of songs. In fact, BMUBMD is the most memorable track on the album (not the best, just the most memorable).
Chris Collins was better than Charlie Dominici.
Burning My Soul '96 was better than the split-song final product.
SC and ToT are in the top half of DT albums, and better than Awake and SDOIT.
Never Enough is the second-best song on Octavarium.
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 is significantly better than Part 1. The Slaughter of the Damned is the best part of the song.
The LATM version of The Killing Hand is a top 5 song.
Portnoy's backing vocals added more to DT than they detracted.
The Beautiful Agony section is the worst part of A Nightmare To Remember.
The Lost Not Forgotten tickle section is annoying.

I think that's all I've got.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 18, 2012, 01:54:30 AM
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- Innocence Faded is without a doubt a top 10 DT song.
Agreed. It's the best moment of LaBrie and also one of my favorite Petrucci solos.

Here's one I doubt anyone agrees with, but I actually like "Day after day...". Mike was right, that part needed that heaviness, it fires me up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on December 18, 2012, 02:04:17 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 17, 2012, 11:22:18 PM
In The Presence of Enemies Part 2 is significantly better than Part 1. The Slaughter of the Damned is the best part of the song.
Out of those head-scratchers ( :P) This one I agree with completely
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 18, 2012, 02:39:45 AM
-Octavarium and Six Degrees are the most overrated DT songs, I even have trouble calling the latter a song
-WDADU > Degrees-BC&SL era albums and FII
-ADTOE > Scenes
-The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun is one of the best DT songs ever
-Forsaken is actually good and probably the best song on SC
-Honor Thy Father is a good song
-Burning My Soul isn't half as bad as people say it is, it beats Anna Lee and New Millennium easily
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 18, 2012, 04:36:24 AM
Quote from: ? on December 18, 2012, 02:39:45 AM
-Octavarium and Six Degrees are the most overrated DT songs

Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- Innocence Faded is without a doubt a top 10 DT song.

 :tup

-Never Enough is the best song on Octavarium
-Prophets of War is great
-Repentance is not too long
-WDADU is a top 5 album
-As I Am is rubbish
-Falling Into Infinity is a top 5 album as well
-Burning My Soul is very good, and so is You Not Me
-Status Seeker is a top 25 song
-A Dramatic Turn of Events isn't very consistent, though it's still massively better than BC&SL
-The Dance of Eternity becomes boring after three and half minutes
-Lie is excellent

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 18, 2012, 04:55:05 AM
Quote from: Ruba on December 18, 2012, 04:36:24 AM
-A Dramatic Turn of Events isn't very consistent, though it's still massively better than BC&SL
I'd be surprised if this were a controversial opinion. The ballads on ADTOE are way too cheesy, the only redeeming value about them -for me- is Jordan's Emerson-like solo on Beneath the Surface. They way they mixed the drums isn't consistent either and I'm also not too fond of James' performance, especially in the choruses, but that's an isolated complaint, as far I as know. Still a masterpiece, though. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on December 18, 2012, 05:06:13 AM
The Ministry of lost souls is my 2nd favorite Dream Theater song.

That might be it.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 18, 2012, 05:08:14 AM
It is received very positively here. I don't really care about This Is the Life or Beneath the Surface. And BMUBMD is the worst DT song ever, period.

The only "Whoa!"-song is OTBOA. Breaking All Illusions has though some brilliant moments, as does Bridges in the Sky, and Outcry has some very emotional parts. I wish the instrumental wouldn't have been The Dance of Eternity 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 18, 2012, 05:45:46 AM
ITPOE Part 2 is better than Part 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 18, 2012, 06:05:57 AM
I&W and Awake aged terribly. I don't listen to much DT anymore but when I do, I never listen to those albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grinch on December 18, 2012, 06:06:23 AM
-I dislike Octavarium (the song), I think it's rubbish.
-I really like The Ministry of Lost Souls.
-I don't like On the Backs of Angels.
-Status Seeker is a really good song.
-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the song) is overrated.
-The Count of Tuscany is a good song.
-Another Day is one of their best songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer81 on December 18, 2012, 06:20:48 AM
-Octavarium is one of the worst album (yes,including the title track)
-SC and BC&SL are awful except for:
  -  The Ministry of Lost Souls
-ADTOE is a top 3 album, if not the best of their discography
-FII is far better than WDADU, 8V, SC and BC&SL

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on December 18, 2012, 07:26:26 AM
James LaBrie's "Octavarium" was better than Dream Theater's "Octavarium"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 18, 2012, 07:51:19 AM
Quote from: goo-goo on December 18, 2012, 07:26:26 AM
James LaBrie's "Octavarium" was better than Dream Theater's "Octavarium"
I didn't like Elements of Persuasion much but the way you worded it gave me a chuckle :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Western Ninja on December 18, 2012, 07:59:04 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 18, 2012, 01:54:30 AM
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- Innocence Faded is without a doubt a top 10 DT song.
Agreed. It's the best moment of LaBrie and also one of my favorite Petrucci solos.

Here's one I doubt anyone agrees with, but I actually like "Day after day...". Mike was right, that part needed that heaviness, it fires me up.

I agree with all of this post. Including what you quoted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on December 18, 2012, 08:00:16 AM
- FII is a VERY GOOD album.
- WDADU is the worst DT album, though Ytse Jam is musical perfection, and surely gets on my top 50
- DT makes you want to listen another musical styles.
- On the Backs of Angels is the best ADTOE song.
- 6DOIT and I&W are at the same level.
- Systematic Chaos is very good if you take out Prophets of War and Ministry of Lost Souls.
- The Best of Times is BORING.
- The first 4 seconds of Beyond This Life are annoying.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 18, 2012, 08:09:36 AM
Quoting for agreement:

Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- Falling into Infinity is a top 5 DT album.
Quote from: Ytsejammin on December 17, 2012, 09:27:48 PM
Scenes is a great album , but the storyline is a little corny. 

M:2000 DVD is an absolute classic concert , but the concept footage leaves a bit to be desired. They should have used more stills instead of the footage.
Quote from: Glass Moonlight on December 17, 2012, 09:45:34 PM
Awake is their best album
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
Lie is awesome.

The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Quote from: Grinch on December 18, 2012, 06:06:23 AM
-I really like The Ministry of Lost Souls.

However, I don't really consider half of these controversial.
Also, lol @ the Score comment. I love the fact that it's just that good so people can't shut up about the fact how various parts are overdubbed :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RoeDent on December 18, 2012, 08:31:47 AM
You Not Me and Burning My Soul are not bad songs.

Anna Lee and This Is the Life are two of the most beautiful DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: namgalsipsclar on December 18, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 17, 2012, 11:22:18 PM
The LATM version of The Killing Hand is a top 5 song.
Agreed
Also, In the name of god sucks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 18, 2012, 08:42:48 AM
ADTOE is very overated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on December 18, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
The Killing Hand is a top 15 song
Metropolis is horribly overrated.
The Silent Man is the third best song on Awake.
I love Take Away My Pain and Just Let Me Breathe
Beyond This Life is the best song by DT.
Never was a huge fan of Finally Free
The Dance Of Eternity is the best instrumental by DT.
The Spirit Carries On is generic.
Misunderstood has an annoying outro.
Goodnight Kiss sucks.
Endless Sacrifice is the a top 5 song.
Stream Of Consciousness is boring.
Sacrificed Sons is the best song on Octavarium.
I love Constant Motion.
Repentance is awesome.
Build Me Up,Break Me Down is the worst song by DT.
Outcry is the best song on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on December 18, 2012, 09:07:25 AM
- I find many fan favourites to be very overrated, like Octavarium, Scarred, Blind Faith, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of Tears.
- Repentance and The Ministry Of Lost Souls bores me to tears.
- Another Day is a Top 3 DT song.
- I love both Take Away My Pain and The Best Of Times.
- Status Seeker is great.
- I Walk Beside You is one of the few highlights on that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on December 18, 2012, 09:13:48 AM
- FII is better than SFAM, even though the latter is more consistent.
- Every part (except maybe for Overture) of 6DOIT is great, but they don't work that well together. Also, Goodnight Kiss is the best them.
- TMOLS rules, as does Prophets of War.
- No song from Awake, SDOIT, Scenes or I&W would make my Top 5 DT songs.
- Octavarium (the song) is overrated, but still good. Sacrificed Sons is superior in every sense, and my favourite off of the album.
- TGP isn't that great. Actually, it's the second worts song of the 12SS, with only TDS being less enjoyable.

Yeah, that's probably it for now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on December 18, 2012, 09:16:33 AM
The Great Debate is a top 10 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Marion Crane on December 18, 2012, 09:35:39 AM
I honestly think Scarred is one of they worst DT songs ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
- Cover My Eyes is a great song.
- So is Where Are You Now
- So is The Way It Used To Be
- New Millennium is crappy after the first 1,5 minute
- Train Of Thought is a bad album
- Octavarium is worse
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 18, 2012, 08:09:36 AM
Quoting for agreement:
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.
Quote from: Elite on December 17, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
- Falling into Infinity is a top 5 DT album.
Quote from: Ytsejammin on December 17, 2012, 09:27:48 PM
Scenes is a great album , but the storyline is a little corny. 

M:2000 DVD is an absolute classic concert , but the concept footage leaves a bit to be desired. They should have used more stills instead of the footage.
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mebert78 on December 18, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
My only controversial opinions of DT are:

1) The Greatest Hits cover art is crap, in my opinion.  Yes, I know it was meant to be a joke.  But DT is a classy band and deserved to put out a classy greatest hits album.  Not an album with a sarcastic title and an illustration of a bird shitting.

2) It's unfortunate that Portnoy chose to trash Kevin Moore in the OSI chapter of the "Lifting Shadows" book and that the DT guys allowed his unclassy comments to be published in the book. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 18, 2012, 09:56:00 AM
Quote from: Mebert78 on December 18, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
My only controversial opinions of DT are:

1) The Greatest Hits cover art is crap, in my opinion.  Yes, I know it was meant to be a joke.  But DT is a classy band and deserved to put out a classy greatest hits album.  Not an album with a sarcastic title and an illustration of a bird shitting.

2) It's unfortunate that Portnoy chose to trash Kevin Moore in the OSI chapter of the "Lifting Shadows" book and that the DT guys allowed his unclassy comments to be published in the book.

I doubt either of those are controversial opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 18, 2012, 10:00:18 AM
Every song could use more ragtime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 18, 2012, 10:01:35 AM
Quote from: Mebert78 on December 18, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
It's unfortunate that Portnoy chose to trash Kevin Moore in the OSI chapter of the "Lifting Shadows" book and that the DT guys allowed his unclassy comments to be published in the book. 

That bugs me too but I don't know if they had a talk about this before publishing it and even they talked I don't think MP had cared what they said if others seemed negative about this chapter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 18, 2012, 10:17:23 AM
The not-so subtle dig at Moore in the foreword of the book is much more offensive and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: phentalmyst on December 18, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
off topic:
-i dont have the book (but hope to with the next release). what was in the foreward?

on topic:
-i can't stand the trackorder of SC. ITPoE part 2 should've opened and TMOLS should've closed (altho the lyrics of the latter are most cringeworthy). ITPoE part 1 shouldn't have been included.
-anna lee and the answer lies within are songs i can't skip over fast enough.
-i listened to raw dog once. once.
-the shattered fortress is probably the worst DT song ever.
-it's hard to grasp that the best of times and the change of seasons were penned by the same guy from a lyrical depth standpoint.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 18, 2012, 10:37:23 AM
- BC&SL and SC are both better than ADToE

- Build Me Up Break Me Down is the worst song by DT since You Not Me

- Octavarium is DT's second worst album (Falling Into Infinity being the worst)

- SDoIT is boring and overrated (the song)

- The Glass Prison is ridiculously overrated on this forum and it drags on way too long.

All my opinions of course  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
The Great Debate doesn't have enough sound clips.
Repentance is actually too short.
The Shattered Fortress is good on it's own.
Disappear has a happier ending than Mass Effect 3.
Systematic Chaos has too much soloing.
DT isn't influenced by Rush enough.
They also need to write a few more Muse and Tool songs.
Myung is too loud in the mix on most of their songs BUMBMD had it just right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 18, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
A few more to my list:
-I find TSCO pretty overrated and cheesy
-Musically Disappear isn't that sad, only the piano intro is notably dark IMO
-I dislike Where Are You Now? with a passion, I'd rather listen to You Not Me, Never Enough or Prophets of War than that song (and that says something!)
-Status Seeker is great
-The Best of Times is too long and boring and the solo is overrated
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: a51502112 on December 18, 2012, 11:04:45 AM
I think the intro guitar solo for " The Spirit Carries On" from the M2000 DVD is embarrassingly tasteless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 18, 2012, 11:06:34 AM
Some more:

Ytse Jam is easily the best DT instrumental. Stream of Consciousness is easily the worst--it probably drags more than any other DT song.
Another Day and Pull Me Under are better than Metropolis.
Goodnight Kiss is the best section of SDOIT the song. The song loses momentum once Solitary Shell starts.
Peruvian Skies and Anna Lee are pretty damn awesome. The former's instrumental section is one of DT's best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 18, 2012, 11:20:23 AM
Quote from: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
The Great Debate doesn't have enough sound clips.
Repentance is actually too short.
The Shattered Fortress is good on it's own.
Disappear has a happier ending than Mass Effect 3.
Systematic Chaos has too much soloing.
DT isn't influenced by Rush enough.
They also need to write a few more Muse and Tool songs.
Myung is too loud in the mix on most of there songs BUMBMD had it just right.
We have a winner :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 11:22:38 AM
Ah! also:

- Disappear and The Great Debate are the best songs of SDOIT (1&2)
- Solitary Shell is not a good song (heresy)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 18, 2012, 11:37:02 AM
Okay, let's try and toss some of my own:

- JP's heaviest riffs are growing more boring, slowly but surely, over time.
- So do JR's orchestral and "dark" patches.
- If any of current DT members become unable to participate in DT anymore, I'd rather have them split up than continue with the band. I would still support them as always, but the current lineup is what DT should be in this day and age, and no other one.
- It's a great thing Kevin left DT.
- There's nothing wrong with 3-minute-instrumental sections.
- Pull Me Under IS overrated among casual fans, and very underrated among us.
- There's nothing wrong with either of the SDOIT discs, and I wouldn't have them any other way.
- I like the fact TSCO is on another live DVD, and I hope it will be on the next tour cycle as well so I could experience it live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 18, 2012, 11:40:05 AM
The album version of Take Away My Pain is the better version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on December 18, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on December 18, 2012, 09:13:48 AM

- No song from Awake, SDOIT, Scenes or I&W would make my Top 5 DT songs.


Holy shit. Those are my 4 favorite albums LOL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on December 18, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
They're all great albums, sure, and SDOIT, I&W and Awake are my favourite, but they don't have any individual tracks that I can rank higher than the highs of DT's other, less consistent albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on December 18, 2012, 12:15:52 PM
You mean songs like This Dying Soul and Sacrificed Sons? Not saying those will be in your list, just giving examples.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on December 18, 2012, 12:20:27 PM
I mean songs that are considerably more awesome than the album that they are on as a whole. Sacrificed Sons fits that bill, though I don't rank it as highly. TDS is probably my second least favourite from ToT, so... no.

But if that's what you meant, yeah. I won't spoil my rankings right now, since it's my turn soon in the Top 50 thread (on the off chance that someone actually cares, but oh well), but if you view TDS and SS as songs such as these, then yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RuRoRul on December 18, 2012, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on December 18, 2012, 09:13:48 AM

- No song from Awake, SDOIT, Scenes or I&W would make my Top 5 DT songs.

I know there's lots of things that have been posted in this thread that are actually pretty common opinions on this forum (or commonly voiced opinions at least), but surely this one isn't all that controversial. Just because they're the most popular DT albums doesn't mean they have the individual songs everyone would rank highest.

Anyway, a few of mine:
- Awake is the worst of the JLB albums.
- Train Of Thought is the best DT album.
- The Dying Soul is a top 10 DT song.
- Honor Thy Father is top 20.
- No song from Awake would make my top 20.
- The Ministry Of Lost Souls is great, particularly its instrumental section (which is one of the best DT instrumental sections).
- The Count Of Tuscany is one of the absolute best DT songs (maybe not too controversial), and its lyrics are good apart from one verse (My brother).
- In The Presence Of Enemies is a top 10 DT song, on the same level as their other popular epics, and Part 2 is the best part of it.
- Take The Time is the best song from Images And Words - and I prefer the Greatest Hits mix of it.
- The Test That Stumped Them All is one of the best parts from SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chwik on December 18, 2012, 12:30:10 PM
JP's solo in "Under A Glass Moon" sucks!









Nah, just kidding!  :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 12:48:12 PM
These opinions almost upset me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on December 18, 2012, 12:56:14 PM
-The instrumental section of The Ministry of Lost Souls fits the rest of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 18, 2012, 01:20:48 PM
Endless Sac.
Ministry
Space Dye

are all probaly top 15 if not top 10 for me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
- BAI, tied with TOT, is the best song DT has ever composed since before I was born.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:35:49 PM
Quote from: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
- BAI, tied with TOT, is the best song DT has ever composed since before I was born.

YES. YES. YES. YES.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:35:49 PM
Quote from: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
- BAI, tied with TOT, is the best song DT has ever composed since before I was born.

YES. YES. YES. YES.

Having just checked your birthday on Facebook, the same cannot be said by you, right?  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:41:13 PM
Eh, I don't know. Those are probably my two favourites, although Metropolis is also pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on December 18, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
Quote from: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 12:48:12 PM
These opinions almost upset me

Agreed. I... I can't even look at this topic anymore. You all disgust me.

But I still love you.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:41:13 PM
Eh, I don't know. Those are probably my two favourites, although Metropolis is also pretty awesome.

Metropolis was written before you were born! :) And ACOS as well. Our birth dates are separated by LTL, TTT, UAGM and DLPM, I believe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:44:00 PM
hehe, Ah good, I'm not ancient yet then. In that case, I am assuming, your favourite is LTL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 18, 2012, 01:45:41 PM
Quote from: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:44:00 PM
hehe, Ah good, I'm not ancient yet then. In that case, I am assuming, your favourite is LTL.

Assumptions, my friend, assumptions. True, perhaps  :-X

- Scarred is a top 10 DT song  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 18, 2012, 01:51:24 PM
Parts I and II Octavarium (Track) is better then III IV and V by a long shot.
Panic Attack may be the worst track DT has ever laid down
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on December 18, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
Well, it looked as if it were going that way. I do very much love that one too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on December 18, 2012, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 18, 2012, 01:51:24 PM
Parts I and II Octavarium (Track) is better then III IV and V by a long shot.

That's not controversial, that's a fact.
- Another Day is EXTREMELY ANNOYING, and by far the worst song on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 18, 2012, 02:10:41 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 18, 2012, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 18, 2012, 01:51:24 PM
Parts I and II Octavarium (Track) is better then III IV and V by a long shot.

That's not controversial, that's a fact.

I'm sure not everyone feels that way.  It's pretty slow, considering. But that's why I like it so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on December 18, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Black Clouds & Silver Linings > A Dramatic Turn of Events
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 18, 2012, 04:46:29 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 18, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Black Clouds & Silver Linings > A Dramatic Turn of Events


YES! YES!

- every album by DT is Better than ADToE.
- one last time is more than a 'filler'
- a rite of passage is go
- 'day after day' part of ANTR is amazing but didn't go with the previous section too well
- Both sides of SDOIT are amazing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 18, 2012, 04:47:41 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 18, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Black Clouds & Silver Linings > A Dramatic Turn of Events

Agreed  :metal it may not be perfect but it just has so much more energy in my opinion. I don't listen to either album much any more, but I'm much more likely to listen to BC&SL than ADToE now. I know I'm in the minority here, but the songs on BC&SL have held my interest longer than ADToE has.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: philmcson on December 18, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
I seldomly listen to the album Metropolis pt.2. Maybe because of the fact that I often don't like things/music/people that are very popular (just as I don't like Maidens' Fear of the Dark)......
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 18, 2012, 05:09:53 PM
You don't listen to Scenes because it's popular? How very hipster of you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: badger on December 18, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
Let's see:

Endless sacrifice=endless long
Sometimes songs seem to be drug out just to fill an album up --alot of BC&SL
"Great debate", "Blind Faith", "Glass prison"....Most of SDOIT awesome--can't get enough, heavy rotation on the itouch.
The intro to "Lost not Forgotten" is a time filler -the rest of the track is the 2nd best part of the album.
After seeing DT live this past summer- I will travel within 400 miles to see them again.
"Through her eyes" is way better than "Spirit Carries On"
I am glad Mangini is in DT instead of MP.

Opinion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on December 18, 2012, 06:29:11 PM
- Although not entirely controversial, Scarred is my favorite song.
- The Mirror is in my top 10
- When Dream and Day Unite is a great album.
- I like the studio version of The Killing Hand a tiny bit more than the Marquee version.
- Octavarium is in my top 3 albums
- Breaking all Illusions is overrated. Good song, but overrated.
- Beneath the Surface is the worst song on ADToE
- I like A Rite of Passage, Prophets of War, Honor Thy Father and Panic Attack. Not top 50, but I like em.
- I prefer Kevin Moore over Jordan Rudess
- Pull me Under is the worst song on Images and Words, though that isn't saying much since all of those songs are phenomenal.

And finally, although this isn't an opinion: Scenes From a Memory is the only album I haven't listened to yet. I will get to it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sfam2112 on December 18, 2012, 06:57:22 PM
In my opinion:
- the song Octavarium is a little overrated. It's definitely not a top 20 or 30 song, for me.
- Burning My Soul is a good song. I don't care much for the original version, though.
- "Breaking All Illusions" is a little too long. However, it did go over better live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MetropolisWatches on December 18, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
I'm one of the few DT fans that actually digs "You Not Me". Also, I've never been in love with "Home" which seems to make many top 10 lists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on December 18, 2012, 07:23:59 PM
Aside from the solo, Under a Glass Moon is kind of boring for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on December 18, 2012, 07:28:28 PM
Speak to Me and Don't Look Past Me are both top 15 DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on December 18, 2012, 08:28:14 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on December 18, 2012, 07:28:28 PM
Speak to Me and Don't Look Past Me are both top 15 DT songs.

The live version of Speak to Me is just amazing. Love it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mike099 on December 18, 2012, 08:30:50 PM
Quote from: 54_diplomats on December 18, 2012, 06:29:11 PM
- Although not entirely controversial, Scarred is my favorite song.
- The Mirror is in my top 10
- When Dream and Day Unite is a great album.
- I like the studio version of The Killing Hand a tiny bit more than the Marquee version.
- Octavarium is in my top 3 albums
- Breaking all Illusions is overrated. Good song, but overrated.
- Beneath the Surface is the worst song on ADToE
- I like A Rite of Passage, Prophets of War, Honor Thy Father and Panic Attack. Not top 50, but I like em.
- I prefer Kevin Moore over Jordan Rudess
- Pull me Under is the worst song on Images and Words, though that isn't saying much since all of those songs are phenomenal.

And finally, although this isn't an opinion: Scenes From a Memory is the only album I haven't listened to yet. I will get to it though.

I am new to DT, but have listened to SFAM several times.  Takes some getting used to, but there are some great songs on the cd. rcenes d
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 18, 2012, 08:34:06 PM
Controversial Dislikes

- Endless Sacrifice is one of my least favorite DT songs.
- I said this before, but I cannot reiterate it enough-- aside from the first minute or so, The Glass Prison is among the worst of the DT catalogue.
- Trial of Tears is way overrated.
- The only songs on Awake that I can sit through are Erotomania, The Mirror, and Space-Dye Vest (which is one of DT's best songs).
- A Change of Seasons has some great parts, but is way overrated.
- I love SFAM, but Through Her Eyes is godawful.
- Outcry is pretty dreadful. Aside from the intro, I can hardly sit through it. Maybe tied for worst on ADTOE with Beneath the Surface and BMUBMD.

Controversial Likes

- DT pulls off Muse and Tool styles very well and in their own unique way.
- The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the 12-Step Suite.
- New Millennium, Peruvian Skies, Anna Lee, and Hell's Kitchen are fantastic songs, every one of them.
- As I Am is an awesome song.
- DT should do more alt-rock songs a la Radiohead (Disappear is pretty much the only one as of now).
- Raw Dog is pretty awesome.
- I like the clips and quotes DT uses, Home included.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: voncorn on December 18, 2012, 08:56:48 PM
-
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 18, 2012, 09:07:00 PM
I'm gonna cheat and give some controversial LTE opinions.

- State of Grace is nice, but generally a skipped song.
- Biaxident is one of the best, if not the best LTE song.
- Chris and Kevin's Excellent Adventure is awesome and I wish they did more groovy experimenting like that in DT.
- Osmosis is amazing.
- The Stretch has some sweet soloing and isn't bad at all.
(basically, the "fillers" on the first LTE are darn good songs on their own)

Quote from: voncorn on December 18, 2012, 08:56:48 PM
- I can overlook the shallow and borderline silly lyrics of Goodnight Kiss because every other aspect of that song is perfect to my ears (especially the guitar solo). The song also happens to be my most listened to DT song according to my last.fm scrobbles.

- I don't see what's so great about A Change of Seasons and I would listen to Octavarium the song over it any day.

Quoted what I agree with. Goodnight Kiss is one of my favorite ever DT songs. The solo is fantastic, and what really seals the deal for me is the sick disco beat soloing at the end. And Octavarium kicks ACoS' butt any day of the week.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on December 18, 2012, 10:06:40 PM
I'm down with:

Quote from: Mebert78 on December 18, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
The Greatest Hits cover art is crap, in my opinion.  Yes, I know it was meant to be a joke.  But DT is a classy band and deserved to put out a classy greatest hits album.  Not an album with a sarcastic title and an illustration of a bird shitting.
Quote from: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
Repentance is actually too short.
Quote from: RuRoRul on December 18, 2012, 12:24:25 PM
The Test That Stumped Them All is one of the best parts from SDOIT.
And add War Inside My Head to that - those two live were just amazingly killer.
Quote from: badger on December 18, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
Sometimes songs seem to be drug out just to fill an album up --alot of BC&SL
I am glad Mangini is in DT instead of MP.
Quote from: Lucidity on December 18, 2012, 08:34:06 PM
As I Am is an awesome song.
Quote from: voncorn on December 18, 2012, 08:56:48 PM
I don't see what's so great about A Change of Seasons and I would listen to Octavarium the song over it any day.

Here's another one of my own:
The only DT song I literally cannot listen to is Sacrificed Sons.  That's not because I hate it - it's a good enough song.  It's the subject matter that makes it so difficult to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dacling on December 18, 2012, 11:27:25 PM
Quote from: voncorn on December 18, 2012, 08:56:48 PM
- I enjoy Charlie Dominici's vocals and prefer the original album to WDADRU, although that DVD is still pretty cool.

The problem with WDADRU is that Labrie wasn't at the top of his game. Some songs are better with Labrie in my opinion and some songs are better with Dominici. The Killing Hand, A Fortune in Lies, Only A Matter of Time are superior with Labrie while Status Seeker is better with Dominici and Afterlife is a Tie. Both are great and I wouldn't be able to say for Light Fuse and Get Away and The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun because I hardly ever listen to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on December 19, 2012, 02:36:45 AM
I can easily side with the OP on many of the statements there. I have a whole bunch of "controversial" DT opinions, but I think the one that sticks out the most, and the one that made my Top 50 list seem like a troll, is the fact that I actually like Your Majesty. Mostly the instrumental, mind you, because the live version with James LaBrie is right up there with LaBrie's worst performances ever, and...y'know...Chris Collins is Chris Collins. But I love the instrumental ver. to death, and I think that it could be a fantastic song if recorded in studio with JLB/done live on a good day with JLB.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trial of Thought on December 19, 2012, 02:54:12 AM
- ADTOE is DT's worst album except for BAI and BTS
- Kevin > Derek > Jordan
- ITPOE Pt.1 is too short
- You Not Me is better than You Or Me
- SDOIT is not a good song except for Solitary Shell and Losing Time/Grand Finale
- LSFNY's version of The Mirror is better than the Album version
- CD is better than CC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on December 19, 2012, 02:57:53 AM
Quote from: Trial of Thought on December 19, 2012, 02:54:12 AM
- CD is better than CC
I don't think that one's so controversial...

Also, I kind of agree about YNM. While I don't care for either of them and both are extremely cheesy, something about the vocal dynamics in the chorus of YNM appeals to me more than YOM. And honestly, between those two versions of such a redundant song, that's a perfectly legit excuse for me to prefer one over the other in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: iamtheeviltwin on December 19, 2012, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 17, 2012, 08:29:41 PM
Metropolis is one of the weaker tracks on I&W.

Haven't wandered through the whole thread, but I agree wholeheartedly with this(and have taken some heat for expressing it before).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
Here's a few off the top of my head:


Derek was their best keyboard player

Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums

Train of Thought is their lamest album

Panic Attack is a good song

The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs

The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

ADTOE is cool and all, but there's just something missing without MP that I can't quite put my finger on
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mike099 on December 19, 2012, 11:55:53 AM
I agree that the drum parts are not as forcefull with MM or ADTOE.

Just listened to SFAM all of the way thru and I cannot figure out how this record did not get nominated  for a grammy when it came out.  Fantastic recording. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 19, 2012, 01:02:33 PM
- The Way It Used To Be is a great song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on December 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

I can agree with this statement
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

I can agree with this statement

Except the stupid horn keyboard sound right? If so then I'll agree
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 19, 2012, 03:41:20 PM
- The Extended Zappa Jam (2004) is better than the rest of Beyond This Life. Way better.

- Score would have benefitted by the absence of SDOIT in the setlist.

- Once In A Lifetime is a treasure of a Live Album!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 03:42:41 PM

Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

I can agree with this statement

Except the stupid horn keyboard sound right? If so then I'll agree

No, that's awesome.  Although admittedly I pay more attention to the groove underneath at that part.  Love that riff that JP & JM play under that solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 03:42:41 PM

Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

I can agree with this statement

Except the stupid horn keyboard sound right? If so then I'll agree

No, that's awesome.  Although admittedly I pay more attention to the groove underneath at that part.  Love that riff that JP & JM play under that solo.

Good rhythm, awful sound
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 19, 2012, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Mladen on December 18, 2012, 05:06:13 AM
The Ministry of lost souls is my 2nd favorite Dream Theater song.

That might be it.  :smiley:

It's not my 2nd favorite, but still a damn a good song that most people just don't seem to get.  The instrumental section doesn't fit or something like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 19, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 03:42:41 PM

Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 10:13:09 AM
The instrumental/jam section in Beyond This Life is the best part of Scenes From a Memory, and one of the best DT moments period

I can agree with this statement

Except the stupid horn keyboard sound right? If so then I'll agree

No, that's awesome.  Although admittedly I pay more attention to the groove underneath at that part.  Love that riff that JP & JM play under that solo.

Good rhythm, awful sound

Beyond this Life actually features some of my favorite Rudess sounds, including the horns. It's his guitar like distorted lead sound that I find awful(e.g. This Dying Soul, not even the wah-wah can help it, if anything, it makes it even worse and the first part of his Budokan solo is also laughable), because what's the point of having keyboards if you make it sound like a guitar? You can have a heavy lead which sounds like keyboards and Jordan got that right on SFAM.

Oh, and yeah, BTL is top 5 material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:58:45 PM
*insert any SFAM song* is top 5 material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 19, 2012, 04:04:36 PM
Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:58:45 PM
*insert any SFAM song* is top 5 material.
But there's more than 5 of them? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on December 19, 2012, 04:08:38 PM
Quote from: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 03:58:45 PM
*insert any SFAM song* is top 5 material.
Hmm, that's a bit strange, I thought a top 5 had only 5 songs in it; and SFAM has more than 5  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 19, 2012, 04:32:48 PM
Only one song is top 5 material on SFAM for me, and that is BTL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 19, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
Besides the intro, the keyboard solo is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on December 19, 2012, 04:45:19 PM
Just saying that any SFAM song is top 5 worthy bit if you are gunna get all pedantic about it...

*insert any SFAM song* is top 12 material
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 05:16:05 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
the keyboard solo is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.

I'm Ryzee and I approve this message.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 19, 2012, 11:08:24 PM
Quote from: Ryzee on December 19, 2012, 05:16:05 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
the keyboard solo is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.

I'm Ryzee and I approve this message.

Thirded. I love The Shattered Fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 20, 2012, 02:59:09 AM
Inspired by the recent posts:
-The horns in BTL sound goddamn awful
-While Scenes is a great album overall, none of the songs from that record would make my top 20
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Fisi on December 20, 2012, 10:35:44 AM
-A Dramatic Turn of Events is the best album Dream Theater has made so far
-JLB's aggressive vocal style on Awake is a bit annoying
-The Bebot solo in A Rite of Passage is amazing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on December 20, 2012, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: Fisi on December 20, 2012, 10:35:44 AM
-The Bebot solo in A Rite of Passage is amazing

You know, I didn't like it  much on the record but for some reason live it was really awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 20, 2012, 11:45:12 AM
So it's controversial to like the instrumental section of BTL? It's definitely one of their coolest moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on December 20, 2012, 01:17:43 PM
the horn patch Jordan uses in BTL sounds awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 04:23:51 PM
Mike Portnoy is a bitch
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 20, 2012, 06:13:05 PM
So much for this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on December 20, 2012, 07:36:59 PM
Quote from: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 04:23:51 PM
Mike Portnoy is a bitch

(https://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/AreYouKiddingMeBlackSS.png)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on December 20, 2012, 09:14:43 PM
train of thought is underrated, SFAM is overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatcrazyKISSfan on December 20, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
SFAM is good, but overrated.  (concept albums in general seem to be overrated, notable exception The Elder by KISS, vastly underrated)

Awake kind of sucks, and I have a feeling I wouldn’t put “kind of” had they left off SDV.

Falling into Infinity is a great album…so is BC&SL(minus AROP and Wither), those 2 down-grade it to a good album.

Jordan Rudess is too technically proficient for his own good.  Take Beneath the Surface…why does he have to use all those effects?  Just play something simple on the piano….I’ve learned to live with what he does in that song, but uggh. 


Also what was said about KM in the book?  I'd find out for myself, but it costs what 300 bucks or something last I checked....since it's out of print...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on December 20, 2012, 09:48:17 PM
things about this thread:
1. so many people say that train of thought sucks that it is no longer a controversial opinion
2. same goes for FII being good
3. why do people hate metropolis, scarred and ADTOE so much?
4. people who don't "get" awake have not listened to it enough or make preconceptions on the outdated sound (stupid snare, stringy keyboards, and terrible mixing overall)
5. Why do people compare octavarium to ACOS? It seems weird that they are different moods, time periods, and ideas yet every single person who has mentioned either of those songs compared it to each other. (PS: they are both amazing songs)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2012, 10:31:08 PM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of the best albums DT has ever done, and definitely THE best since the year 2000.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 10:37:24 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 20, 2012, 07:36:59 PM
Quote from: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 04:23:51 PM
Mike Portnoy is a bitch

(https://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/AreYouKiddingMeBlackSS.png)
Controversial opinion, what this thread is all about. I like Mike Portnoy as a drummer, but as a person he really makes me mad sometimes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 10:39:21 PM
^You should stay away from comments like that, buddy. It's in violation of forum rules. You'd do well to edit your post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 11:43:15 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 10:39:21 PM
^You should stay away from comments like that, buddy. It's in violation of forum rules. You'd do well to edit your post.
Are you serious? I completely respect this forum and if I am out of line here I'm sorry, but isn't that the whole point of this thread?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 11:45:10 PM
No, this thread is for controversial opinions. "Mike Portnoy is a bitch" isn't a controversial opinion, it's a personal attack.

Anyway, I'm not a mod or anything, so it's really none of my business, but I figured I'd let you know since that kind of language isn't tolerated by the higher-ups.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 21, 2012, 12:20:19 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 11:45:10 PM
No, this thread is for controversial opinions. "Mike Portnoy is a bitch" isn't a controversial opinion, it's a personal attack.
This. Besides, MP is a member here so he might see that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Glass Moonlight on December 21, 2012, 01:02:02 AM
Quote from: ? on December 21, 2012, 12:20:19 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 11:45:10 PM
No, this thread is for controversial opinions. "Mike Portnoy is a bitch" isn't a controversial opinion, it's a personal attack.
This. Besides, MP is a member here so he might see that.
After thinking about it, my attack to him wasn't at all just. I have no reason to judge him as a person. Not only that, but my attack at him wasn't justified in my original post. With that said, again, judging him as a person was very wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 21, 2012, 03:28:41 AM
Quote from: Polis on December 20, 2012, 09:48:17 PM
4. people who don't "get" awake have not listened to it enough or make preconceptions on the outdated sound (stupid snare, stringy keyboards, and terrible mixing overall)

No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 21, 2012, 03:38:54 AM
James' writing ability is better than both JP and MP. I wish he wrote more lyrics.

Don't know if it is controversial or not though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 21, 2012, 03:46:28 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 21, 2012, 03:38:54 AM
James' writing ability is better than both JP and MP. I wish he wrote more lyrics.

Don't know if it is controversial or not though.

Well, debatable, surely. His style his unique, even though I am not sure I appreciate his best lyrics over JP's best. Disappear vs. Voices, which one would win?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 21, 2012, 03:51:58 AM
I think Disappear is the best lyric of DT. But yes, you can't simply decide by having just a few lyrics of James. Overall JP has many amazing lyrics but JLB has just a few amazing lyrics because he's already written a few lyrics.  :biggrin:

KM, on the other hand, is the best lyricist, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XJDenton on December 21, 2012, 04:22:03 AM
Quote from: Glass Moonlight on December 20, 2012, 11:43:15 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 20, 2012, 10:39:21 PM
^You should stay away from comments like that, buddy. It's in violation of forum rules. You'd do well to edit your post.
Are you serious? I completely respect this forum and if I am out of line here I'm sorry, but isn't that the whole point of this thread?

All opinions need to be framed in the right way. Calling someone a bitch is not. Consider this a friendly reminder not to do so in the future.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2012, 06:22:22 AM
And please modify your original post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tnphelps on December 21, 2012, 07:25:28 AM
I have never liked The Glass Prison either. Worst song on the CD IMO. Awake is not my least favorite (that honor would go to SC),  but would rank in the bottom half.

Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM
I thought this might be an interesting topic-- thinking of any thoughts you have on DT songs or albums that you think will spark mass debate and not sit well with the general crowd.

For me, I have never liked the Glass Prison much at all, and it probably doesn't rank in the top 40 for me. I think Octavarium (the song) is leagues above A Change of Seasons. I think Octavarium is a fantastic album (way better than Awake). I also love the Shattered Fortress, The Dark Eternal Night, This is the Life, and Far From Heaven. And probably the major one is that Awake is one of my least favorite DT albums. It has  a couple good songs, but most of it is bland and a drag to sit through. The songs on Awake are by far my least listened to DT songs, sans WDaDU.

Forgive me if a thread like this has already been created, but otherwise I think this should be pretty interesting. Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tnphelps on December 21, 2012, 07:40:18 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on December 19, 2012, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Mladen on December 18, 2012, 05:06:13 AM
The Ministry of lost souls is my 2nd favorite Dream Theater song.

That might be it.  :smiley:

It's not my 2nd favorite, but still a damn a good song that most people just don't seem to get.  The instrumental section doesn't fit or something like that.

I agree!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 21, 2012, 10:46:27 AM
Quote from: ThatcrazyKISSfan on December 20, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
Awake kind of sucks, and I have a feeling I wouldn’t put “kind of” had they left off SDV.

Falling into Infinity is a great album…so is BC&SL(minus AROP and Wither), those 2 down-grade it to a good album.

Jordan Rudess is too technically proficient for his own good.  Take Beneath the Surface…why does he have to use all those effects?  Just play something simple on the piano….I’ve learned to live with what he does in that song, but uggh. 

Agree with all of this. I do love lots of Jordan's uber-technical parts, when they fit a song, but he could tone it down for songs that aren't deserving of weird effects and crazy soloing. Also, we need more classical piano in DT.

And here's something that could stir a lot of toruble-- don't get me wrong, DT is my favorite band ever and nothing has every gotten in the way of me loving DT songs, but I want it to be said that DT generally has bad lyrics. Not terrible, and not all of them of bad. They don't stop me from loving their songs, and nearly all of them are bearable (except maybe Count of Tuscany...), but if I ever listen to a song just for the lyrics, it doesn't leave much of an impression on me. I like DT for the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 21, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
I actually don't think Chris Collins is a horrible vocalist.  A large part of the problem was the crappy recording equipment they had with him.  He is no James LaBrie by far but when I listen to the Majesty demos I really don't mind his voice at all. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2012, 11:25:06 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 21, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
I actually don't think Chris Collins is a horrible vocalist.  A large part of the problem was the crappy recording equipment they had with him.  He is no James LaBrie by far but when I listen to the Majesty demos I really don't mind his voice at all.
I agree. I can't speak for right now, his recent stuff I've heard was kind of shit, but back on the Majesty demos, I actually liked his voice better than Dominici's, he definitely had more power.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: philmcson on December 21, 2012, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2012, 10:31:08 PM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of the best albums DT has ever done, and definitely THE best since the year 2000.

Yup, imo it is a great album, but I personally would highlight BCSL from the 2007-2011 period, and from 2000-2007 I like all of their releases "equally"....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ColdFireYYZ on December 21, 2012, 05:57:25 PM
1. Octavarium is a top 5 DT album.
2. Space-Dye Vest is the best song on Awake.
3. Despite number 2, Rudess>Sherinian>Moore.
4. I wish DT used sound clips more often, like in The Great Debate. However, I'm not a big fan of the clips in Home.
5. Octavarium > A Change of Seasons.
6. I love The Big Medley.
7. Forsaken is a good song.
8. I love the "wanking" part of Fatal Tragedy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toro on December 21, 2012, 06:32:23 PM
Got so over Octavarium it suxorz, I never ever get the need to listen to it anymore, the only part I still like is the moog solo. A Change Of Seaons shits all over it, simply because ACOS feels like a natural cohesive song, while 8VM just feels like they tried(like in their last albums with MP.)
 to make an epic song with different ideas thrown in together.

Also TSCO makes me cringe now. The solo is still pretty cool.

Aside from those 2 I still love me some DT.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Yoshi Yogurt on December 21, 2012, 06:39:35 PM
Strange deja vu is the best song on SFAM

Panic Attack is a Top 10 song for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Lots of trololol posts here so i'll contribute.

POW is the best song of SC.
Home in SFAM gives me a woody.
Cowbell action in CIAW is the best part of Awake.
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.
I Walk Beside You should have been a radio top 40 hit.
There's nothing erotic about Erotomania.
A Rite Of Passage is the best song of BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 22, 2012, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: Yoshi Yogurt on December 21, 2012, 06:39:35 PM
Strange deja vu is the best song on SFAM
:tup, especially when paired up with Overture.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 22, 2012, 03:38:05 AM
May have already been said;

-MP's clean backing vocals were very good at times.
-LITS and TofTears are overrated.
-UAGM is the weakest song on I&W.
-Awake is hit or miss sometimes, with Voices being a chief culprit of this.
-Misunderstood's outro can be enjoyable
-8V is overrated as an epic, and ITPOE is more intense than 8V.
-Some of JP's solos are subpar, and ADTOE was a big contributor to solos that miss the mark.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 22, 2012, 07:37:44 AM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM

A Rite Of Passage is the best song of BC&SL.

Yes!  I agree!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 22, 2012, 07:51:47 AM
The last two posts are the definition of controversial. To be honest, I agree with 0% of them (no, actually the MP one fits my view) :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 22, 2012, 09:27:04 AM
Not sure if this is controversial but...

The chorus of I Walk Beside You seems like it would fit perfectly in a cheesy trailer for a chick flick.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 22, 2012, 11:49:00 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2012, 10:31:08 PM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of the best albums DT has ever done, and definitely THE best since the year 2000.

Not one of the best, but I agree with the second part.

Quote from: CableX 1814 on December 22, 2012, 03:38:05 AM
-Misunderstood's outro can be enjoyable
-8V is overrated as an epic, and ITPOE is more intense than 8V.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toro on December 22, 2012, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Lots of trololol posts here so i'll contribute.
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Well, it is a Controversial Opinions thread afterall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: olliemedsy on December 22, 2012, 02:00:32 PM
Quote from: Rattlehead on December 18, 2012, 10:37:23 AM

- The Glass Prison is ridiculously overrated on this forum and it drags on way too long.

All my opinions of course  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on December 22, 2012, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: toro on December 22, 2012, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Lots of trololol posts here so i'll contribute.
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Well, it is a Controversial Opinions thread afterall.

What's not epic about vampires and dark masters?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 22, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.

What.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 22, 2012, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 22, 2012, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: toro on December 22, 2012, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Lots of trololol posts here so i'll contribute.
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Well, it is a Controversial Opinions thread afterall.

What's not epic about vampires and dark masters?  :lol

And your answer is       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti0H-bvMi3I
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTFan0789 on December 22, 2012, 02:53:32 PM
Dream Theater has never released anything bad. Ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on December 22, 2012, 03:24:39 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 22, 2012, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 22, 2012, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: toro on December 22, 2012, 12:23:40 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Lots of trololol posts here so i'll contribute.
Quote from: 1neeto on December 21, 2012, 08:32:25 PM
Forsaken has the best lyrical content of any DT song. In fact, SC is a lyrical masterpiece.
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Well, it is a Controversial Opinions thread afterall.

What's not epic about vampires and dark masters?  :lol

And your answer is       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti0H-bvMi3I

Great movie.  :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 22, 2012, 03:53:33 PM
Catching up on this thread but I wanted to add this:

JP was a much more innovated and interesting guitar player pre-SDOIT. Pretty much when he signed with Ernie Ball I feel his work as a guitar player has been as good as his Ibanez days not saying the guitar had anything to do with it.

When I listen to "Bombay Vindaloo" and the extended "To Live Forever" jam I hear some amazing, creative guitar player. When I hear things like the extended Hollow Years solo or the BTL jam from Budokan I just hear shredding that is pretty forgettable. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on December 22, 2012, 04:41:38 PM
Ok in all seriousness I truly believe that SC is a very under appreciated album. It has some fun to listen songs like TDEK and ITPOE is a great epic. POW though, ranks as my least favorite DT song ever, even worse than SDV from Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tunnel Vision on December 22, 2012, 05:12:38 PM
TDEN's instrumental section may be the best part of the song...It feels very 'fun' to me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 22, 2012, 11:20:14 PM
My least favorite thing about DT's music is when they do long instrumental sections that consist mostly of riffs. I wish they would have more songs where the instrumental sections consisted mostly of solos (either one solo, tradeoffs, or multiple solos throughout the song) then having one mammoth section that is 2/3 a bunch of "establishing riffs" and jamming. Like the first part of the TMOLS instrumental, or the first two minutes of The Reckoning, or all the TDEN stuff. It's not like it never works (a lot of the early stuff used it well), but since ToT I feel like it's become a tired formula to stretch songs out that tends to interrupt the flow of things. I know DT is known for being all jammy and proggy, and I'm as big a pusher of big song lengths as anyone on this forum, but I just wish the instrumental time was used more for playing off the pre-existing feel of a song than taking several minutes to establish a new feel and jam over it for no clear reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on December 23, 2012, 07:53:34 AM
Quote from: Yoshi Yogurt on December 21, 2012, 06:39:35 PM
Strange deja vu is the best song on SFAM
Agreed.

Oh, and Razor's Edge is completely overrated. Full Circle is the best part of the 8vm the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on December 23, 2012, 08:02:33 AM
I agree on the Razor's Edge part, but I actually prefer Intervals. It's a great climax to the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:02:58 AM
Ok, I think I've gathered up the courage to post my list. To keep some balance, I'm making sure to include both positive and negative opinions. I see I'm not the only person to arrange it this way. :tup
Disclaimer - Obviously these are just my opinions, but it's easier to write it this way, and it's what everyone else is doing anyway.

CONTROVERSIALLY NEGATIVE
WDADU is so amateurish and poorly written that I don't count it as a real DT album.
ADTOE is near the bottom of DT's discography, and has the worst mix/production of any DT album besides WDADU.
The last half hour of Awake drags the album down to one of DT's weakest, and Scarred is DT's worst song since WDADU (yep, worse than Lie, YNM, BMS, TAMP, JLMB, IWBY, NE etc)
LTL is the weakest song on IaW, due to its weak vocal melodies and phrasing. (Aside from those flaws, it is otherwise a great song)
I'm going to use the word weak again just to see if anybody's paying attention.
ACOS is overrated (but still a decent song), and Octavarium is the far superior epic, and much more musically cohesive.
OIALT is ruined by DS's poor playing and JLB's voice during that era (but both have managed to improve to excellent in more recent times :tup)
Kevin Moore was an average lyricist, and no better than anyone else in the band.

CONTROVERSIALLY POSITIVE
SC is a great album (even though I don't consider it one of DT's best by any means), and hugely underrated.
TDEN is a top 20 DT song, and has one of DT's best instrumental sections.
IAW's production is awesome, including the '80s triggered snare. ESPECIALLY the triggered snare!
FII is one of DT's best albums (4th for me just behind SDOIT/SFAM/IaW).
MP's harmonies (along with JP's) are one of the best features of modern DT albums that is sorely lacking on ADTOE (bring back more JP backing vocals dangit! And maybe JR too. This would be swell.)
A lot of DT's straight ahead metal songs like As I Am, TROAE, and CM, are top tier DT songs.
SDOIT is DT's best album in every regard, and the title track is a masterpiece, and DT's best long song.
TGP is a top 5 DT song (I rank it 1 or 2, but I'll be lenient and allow up to top 5 before I rage at you :biggrin:). I probably wouldn't have added this one if there weren't so many non-believers in this thread.
Vacant is DT's most emotional ballad.


Deal with it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 23, 2012, 08:12:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:02:58 AM
IAW's production is awesome, including the '80s triggered snare. ESPECIALLY the triggered snare!
Ahh hellyeah!!  :metal We are now BBF Blob-san!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:13:49 AM
Great! Let's go listen to some Firehouse! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 23, 2012, 08:19:16 AM
Yes let's do dat! Baby, don't treat me baaaaaad! Kaffwwwwwwww!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:25:42 AM
I'm much more of a fan of Hold Your Fire.

:slayer: Whoooooaaaa we'll rock you tonight! We're gonna rock you tonight! :slayer:


Inspirational stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*



At least use Dokken. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*



At least use Dokken. :biggrin:

But Dokken wasn't produced by the same guy as IaW, so that doesn't work! :getoffmylawn:


Oh fine. :slayer: We're the dreeeeeeeeeeam warrioooooooors!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 09:04:30 AM
Quote
  Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

I love Mangini as a person and as a drummer - but his solos bore me to death.


I don't like listening to anything where it's primarily about technique rather than just playing a groove with some tasty fills...


In music college - i'd hear guitarists go " Oh that scale worked great over that altered chord ".

It just leaves me cold - i'd rather hear one note being played with 100% feel than some alternate scale simply because the theory behind it is interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 23, 2012, 09:12:50 AM
I agree with the majority of Blob's opinions, except a few, most notably on TGP, which COULD be a top 5 song for me, but there is way too much fat that needs to be trimmed off  :lol In other words it drags on way too long and could benefit from being cleaned up a bit. It's somewhere in my top 20-25 though.

Also... in my opinion 8vm could've been a masterpiece but the full circle part is really weak and James' vocals are cringeworthy. But the rest of the song is awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 23, 2012, 09:16:15 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 09:04:30 AM
Quote
  Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

I love Mangini as a person and as a drummer - but his solos bore me to death.


I don't like listening to anything where it's primarily about technique rather than just playing a groove with some tasty fills...


In music college - i'd hear guitarists go " Oh that scale worked great over that altered chord ".

It just leaves me cold - i'd rather hear one note being played with 100% feel than some alternate scale simply because the theory behind it is interesting.

Really? Because this is one of the most musical and interesting drum solos I've heard in a while. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvH1Y20cJ6M
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 23, 2012, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*



At least use Dokken. :biggrin:

But Dokken wasn't produced by the same guy as IaW, so that doesn't work! :getoffmylawn:


Oh fine. :slayer: We're the dreeeeeeeeeeam warrioooooooors!

Much better! :metal :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 23, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 09:04:30 AM
Quote
  Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

I love Mangini as a person and as a drummer - but his solos bore me to death.


I don't like listening to anything where it's primarily about technique rather than just playing a groove with some tasty fills...


In music college - i'd hear guitarists go " Oh that scale worked great over that altered chord ".

It just leaves me cold - i'd rather hear one note being played with 100% feel than some alternate scale simply because the theory behind it is interesting.
It's not always black and white, good players can incorporate brilliant technic and maintain 100% feel and musicality. Those are the ones i look up to, not just one of each. I will never look down on someone how has brilliant technic no matter what because you can't fake technical stuff even if it sounds a little ruff, it takes alot of practice. Musicality and virtuosity should always go hand and hand and are equally important even if you play the simplest form of music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 23, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*
So I'm too late to say Reach for the skyyyy or I will shoot you down in a blink of an eyeeeee ? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 23, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*
So I'm too late to say Reach for the skyyyy or I will shoot you down in a blink of an eyeeeee ? :biggrin:

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_7076_1354406123.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on December 23, 2012, 10:32:11 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 23, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 23, 2012, 08:45:23 AM
*Evil glare at BVD & MrBoom for the Firehouse reference*
So I'm too late to say Reach for the skyyyy or I will shoot you down in a blink of an eyeeeee ? :biggrin:

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_7076_1354406123.gif)
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_7076_1354406123.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 23, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
I foresee that the Milena reaction will be the 2013 DTF phenomenon.

Anyway, once again, clarify your quotes, dissipate my ignorance :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 23, 2012, 10:51:19 AM
I foresee that the Milena reaction will be the 2013 DTF phenomenon.

Wasn't it already the 2012 DTF phenomenon? :lol It's just so endlessly versatile!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on December 23, 2012, 10:55:57 AM
And so delightful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 01:58:43 PM
The triggered snare sounds kind of weird in spots on IAW (fast rolls in particular), but otherwise I totally agree. I love me some 80s production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 23, 2012, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 01:58:43 PM
The triggered snare sounds kind of weird in spots on IAW (fast rolls in particular), but otherwise I totally agree. I love me some 80s production.


I love how the triggered snare sounds starting with the new riff @ 7:23 during Metropolis Pt. I. All live recordings  of the song make me frown during that riff section because the triggered snare adds fitting power during the riff.

And while on Metropolis Pt. I...
-Minus the live intro with the Score version, the WDADR version is superior to the Score version of Met pt.1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 23, 2012, 04:49:33 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2012, 08:02:58 AM
IAW's production is awesome, including the '80s triggered snare. ESPECIALLY the triggered snare!
FII is one of DT's best albums (4th for me just behind SDOIT/SFAM/IaW).

Those are the only two things you said I agree with (except FII is 4th for me behind Awake/IAW/SFAM). :lol  I do think OIALT is hampered by LaBrie's performance, which isn't a controversial opinion, but Derek's playing is fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 23, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 23, 2012, 04:49:33 PM
Those are the only two things you said I agree with (except FII is 4th for me behind Awake/IAW/SFAM). :lol  I do think OIALT is hampered by LaBrie's performance, which isn't a controversial opinion, but Derek's playing is fine.

Oh, yeah, my controversial opinion is that OYALT is sung quite well, and that the vocal performance doesn't diminish the awesomeness of the record nor the amount of enjoyment on my part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 05:04:20 PM
Dunno how controversial this is but I think FII is better than SC.

New Millenium. Trial of Tears. Lines In The Sand. Hell's Kitchen.

All better than anything on SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 05:04:20 PM
Dunno how controversial this is but I think FII is better than SC.

New Millenium. Trial of Tears. Lines In The Sand. Hell's Kitchen.

All better than anything on SC.

I don't think that's very controversial. I heavily disagree though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 05:05:46 PM
TMOLS-ITPOE2 is the best consecutive 30-minute stretch of music in DT history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
TMOLS is good but drags like a bitch and ITPOE part 2 is just average compared to other DT songs .


I much prefer Sacrificed Sons - Octvarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: alirocker08 on December 23, 2012, 05:56:05 PM
Vacant is my favourite DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 06:23:15 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
TMOLS is good but drags like a bitch and ITPOE part 2 is just average compared to other DT songs .


I much prefer Sacrificed Sons - Octvarium.

I love Octavarium, but SS is very ordinary and like someone else said earlier, the subject matter makes it hard to swallow for me at times. I'd probably take TBOT->TCOT over those two, actually.

Oh, controversy. It's fun.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 23, 2012, 07:48:05 PM
Quote from: alirocker08 on December 23, 2012, 05:56:05 PM
Vacant is my favourite DT song.

Vacant was the very first DT song that I liked, and it's still one of my favorites. I love the celllo. Respect for anyone whose favorite DT song is Vacant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on December 23, 2012, 10:08:59 PM
Six Degrees is a weak album (especially Disc 2)
Octavarium is not a good song. at all. Fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on December 23, 2012, 10:19:26 PM
SFAM is bad.

AMA
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2012, 05:05:44 AM
Quote from: snapple on December 23, 2012, 10:08:59 PM
Six Degrees is a weak album (especially Disc 2)
Octavarium is not a good song. at all. Fact.

Quote from: Polis on December 23, 2012, 10:19:26 PM
SFAM is bad.

AMA

Both of these are sooooooooo wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 24, 2012, 06:20:57 AM
Without Jordan's Moog solo, Octavarium would be mediocre. Because of it, it's top 15 material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 05:05:46 PM
TMOLS-ITPOE2 is the best consecutive 30-minute stretch of music in DT history.


Hell Yes
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2012, 12:39:34 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 05:05:46 PM
TMOLS-ITPOE2 is the best consecutive 30-minute stretch of music in DT history.


Hell Yes

Unless you count their live shows, in which case, I think Learning To Live + A Change of Seasons from LSFNY tops it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 12:44:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2012, 12:39:34 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 23, 2012, 05:05:46 PM
TMOLS-ITPOE2 is the best consecutive 30-minute stretch of music in DT history.


Hell Yes

Unless you count their live shows, in which case, I think Learning To Live + A Change of Seasons from LSFNY tops it.

Good call--that's close. Really wish there was an F# in LTL there though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
I am disappoint at the lack of F# but I respect the fact that he still gave us something instead of not doing anything at all
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on December 24, 2012, 01:36:32 PM
My controversial opinions will be shared when I do my list on the Top 50 DT Songs. That should be sometime between 2014 and 2020.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 24, 2012, 02:20:49 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on December 24, 2012, 01:36:32 PM
My controversial opinions will be shared when I do my list on the Top 50 DT Songs. That should be sometime between 2014 and 2020.

You are pretty optimist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2012, 02:32:52 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 12:44:35 PM
Good call--that's close. Really wish there was an F# in LTL there though.

Yes, but I would say that the extended outro made up for it. I mean, I don't know, maybe that's the outro they play live all the time, they obviously wouldn't fade out live music, but hearing it that way was very cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
I will say I'm glad James didn't go for the C# in Crimson Sunset in LSFNY though. That note doesn't even sound good on record, so it probably would've been painful live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
I will say I'm glad James didn't go for the C# in Crimson Sunset in LSFNY though. That note doesn't even sound good on record, so it probably would've been painful live.

"I will live ooooooooooooooooooon" ... -drum fill-


?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 24, 2012, 03:24:05 PM
I will say I'm glad James didn't go for the C# in Crimson Sunset in LSFNY though. That note doesn't even sound good on record, so it probably would've been painful live.

"I will live ooooooooooooooooooon" ... -drum fill-


?

No, the "offbeaten traaAAAAACK"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 24, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
oooooooooooh ok
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 24, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
-Triggered Snare, among other things, gives Images and Words more of a dark eighties feel. I like that a lot.
-A Dramatic Turn of Events is one of my favorites
-Awake is good, but drags on just a bit.
-Score is awesome, but I think that The Great Debate would have been cool to play with an orchestra. (Six Degrees was a great choice though.
-If I had to see Dream Theater Cover an album that they haven't done yet (and released a bootleg), it would probably be either Moving Pictures or Power Windows.
-John>John :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 24, 2012, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on December 24, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
-John>John :neverusethis:
Since we're talking controversial opinions here, it should be quite obvious which John is which.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BanksD on December 25, 2012, 08:21:17 AM
Some of my controversial opinions

-Octavarium is easily in the top 3 of DT's best work in my book (even above the likes of Awake, ADTOE, and 6 Degrees)
-ADTOE  was a really good album on first impression but has not aged well for me
-Surrounded is DTs best piece lyrically speaking
-most of the albums released since SDOIT (save Octavarium) have all been great collections of songs that just do not work well as full albums (specifically Train of Thought and Systematic Chaos)
-Dream Theater's solos as of late (at least 75% of them) have not felt very impressive or all that innovative and have for the most part been more of the same
-Repentance is by far and away my least favorite DT song but it is probably the only one I refuse to sit through (though I will concede it has it's moments)
-FII has a lot of outright medicore songs but works amazingly as a full album


Most of these are probably not the most controversial of opinions but eh, whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 25, 2012, 08:33:26 AM
Where are you now? Has Dereks best keyboard leads with DT. And is a fantastic gem.

Prophets of War is great and a well written song, MP's spoken word part could've been left off leaving the underline guitar which would've made the song way better.

The Shattered Fortress is the best AA Suite song. It does its job of summarizing and the Inventory lyrics dont bother me at all
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on December 25, 2012, 09:19:28 AM
Quote from: BanksD on December 25, 2012, 08:21:17 AM
-ADTOE  was a really good album on first impression but has not aged well for me

I feel the same about the album... most of it is just bland and uninteresting to me now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on December 25, 2012, 09:43:18 AM
I don't like almost all JR synth solos, as well as his interpretations of older solos (He ruins Take The Time imo with his improvisations)

I think Metropolis Pt.2 would be much more interesting with Derek on keyboards

MP's drumming after FII was just rehashing the same parts over and over again

JP rushes his solos many times during live performances (not so much now with MM)

I liked MP's spoken part during Prophets of War

I like the triggered sound of the drums in I&W

FII has the best production among DT albums

JLB sounds great on OIALT




Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 25, 2012, 08:33:26 AM
Prophets of War is great and a well written song, MP's spoken word part could've been left off leaving the underline guitar which would've made the song way better.

The Shattered Fortress is the best AA Suite song. It does its job of summarizing and the Inventory lyrics dont bother me at all

YES.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 25, 2012, 12:36:22 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 25, 2012, 08:33:26 AM
Prophets of War is great and a well written song, MP's spoken word part could've been left off leaving the underline guitar which would've made the song way better.

The Shattered Fortress is the best AA Suite song. It does its job of summarizing and the Inventory lyrics dont bother me at all

YES.
Third..ed...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on December 25, 2012, 12:46:18 PM
Metropolis Part I is in my top 20 DT songs. As in, not in the top 5, top 10 or top 15. Top 20; And Not as good as the majority of songs in I&W.

I'm ready to die.



Also:
The Ministry of Lost Souls is the best song on SC, and it would be one of the best DT songs ever if it wasn't for the overlong instrumental section
I don't like to listen to Outcry just because of the song's ending. It fits so bad I don't like to hear the entire song because I know how bad it's going to end.
Never Enough would be a good song if it wasn't for the intro and James' Bellamyesque singing in the verses.
ADTOE has aged well after a year, and that's something I can't say about SC or BC&SL.
People should appreciate Bombay Vindaloo and the Another Hand intro to The Killing Hand more.
Eve is a beautiful song, yet I don't feel it would fit in any of DT's albums. Maybe in the ACoS EP. I feel there should be a studio version with the sound samples heard in some of the live versions and the current one without them.
Chaos in Motion is the most unnecessary album/video release in all of DT history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 25, 2012, 01:14:15 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 25, 2012, 12:46:18 PM
Chaos in Motion is the most unnecessary album/video release in all of DT history.
Isn't that, like, mainstream opinion?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 25, 2012, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 25, 2012, 12:46:18 PM
Chaos in Motion is the most unnecessary album/video release in all of music history.

FFY. Yeah, that's a bit harsh but can't even believe DT agreed to present it. Man, there are bootlegs better than this DVD in every way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 25, 2012, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: wasteland on December 23, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
Oh, yeah, my controversial opinion is that OYALT is sung quite well, and that the vocal performance doesn't diminish the awesomeness of the record nor the amount of enjoyment on my part.
Here's an ultimate one: JLB on 5YIALT > JLB on Budokan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 25, 2012, 02:29:04 PM
I've never really compared the two, but I may agree with this (not completely sure). There were 2004 shows where James sounded better than OIALT, that's sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
Here's a nice controversial opinion-- I don't give a flying kazoodle about live albums, and haven't bothered touching one of DT's live albums aside from Score, simply for the orchestra. I mean, concerts are great, and solos and whatnot can be a bit different sometimes, but live albums in general do nothing for me. Studio albums have the same materials in higher quality the exact way the artist meant for them to be. Come at me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 25, 2012, 04:11:38 PM
Well, this is more than a opinion but a personal choice, I guess.

Especially when you are metal/rock band with full instruments your place is the stage. That's where you can understand if they are worth enough to listen or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 25, 2012, 04:12:47 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
Here's a nice controversial opinion-- I don't give a flying kazoodle about live albums, and haven't bothered touching one of DT's live albums aside from Score, simply for the orchestra. I mean, concerts are great, and solos and whatnot can be a bit different sometimes, but live albums in general do nothing for me. Studio albums have the same materials in higher quality the exact way the artist meant for them to be. Come at me.
You just have no idea what you're missing out on :'(
I bet you hear a lot of this so I'll shut up now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 25, 2012, 04:14:09 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
Here's a nice controversial opinion-- I don't give a flying kazoodle about live albums, and haven't bothered touching one of DT's live albums aside from Score, simply for the orchestra. I mean, concerts are great, and solos and whatnot can be a bit different sometimes, but live albums in general do nothing for me. Studio albums have the same materials in higher quality the exact way the artist meant for them to be. Come at me.

As the proud possessor of more than 400 DT recordings, I second Milena but I will too shut up for the same reason. It's your opinion, after all. Respect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 25, 2012, 04:22:33 PM
I think another reason why I don't care for live albums is that I don't like having the same songs on my iPhone twice :3 I know that's an incredibly stupid reason but it's a very strong feeling for me. I know that DT of all bands has some wonderful live shows, but live albums aren't for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 25, 2012, 04:27:37 PM
I really liked Live at the Marquee. The production is great, the setlist is, albeit small, great and enjoyable. Plus, you get "Bombay Vindaloo", which is a great jam track. James LaBrie as absolutely killer too (he had a cold, so there are some overdubs present, but still, it's awesome).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 25, 2012, 04:29:12 PM
I think Live Albums are best experienced if there's video footage to boot. There are certain versions of songs that I enjoy just listening to like Score's 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence, or When Dream And Day Reunite (as opposed to the original), but generally speaking, I won't listen to live songs unless I'm actually watching the concert on DVD/Blu-Ray.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 25, 2012, 04:32:43 PM
Yeah, if ever you change your mind, DT live albums are the place to go ;)

Hey, now that I'm thinking of it, it's not exactly controversial, but I see divided opinions on this: Speaking as a person that holds Space-Dye Vest in the deepest, most precious corner of her heart as a song that made sense of everything that hurt and that was confusing and still keeps making it - meaning, someone who thinks SDV is serious fucking business - Jordan didn't ruin it in Tarrytown. FAR from it. It was just how I imagined he would play it and I liked it, even though different solutions would be equally as good, or better (the original solution being, obviously, the best).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 25, 2012, 04:34:36 PM
I completely agree with you. I only wish he could have played it a little slower. It felt a tad rushed at times, especially during the first verses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 25, 2012, 04:39:02 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 25, 2012, 04:32:43 PM
Hey, now that I'm thinking of it, it's not exactly controversial, but I see divided opinions on this: Speaking as a person that holds Space-Dye Vest in the deepest, most precious corner of her heart as a song that made sense of everything that hurt and that was confusing and still keeps making it - meaning, someone who thinks SDV is serious fucking business - Jordan didn't ruin it in Tarrytown. FAR from it. It was just how I imagined he would play it and I liked it, even though different solutions would be equally as good, or better (the original solution being, obviously, the best).

I really wish that concert was recorded in good quality. Youtube videos taken by fans really don't do it justice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 25, 2012, 07:27:42 PM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on December 25, 2012, 04:27:37 PM
I really liked Live at the Marquee. The production is great, the setlist is, albeit small, great and enjoyable. Plus, you get "Bombay Vindaloo", which is a great jam track. James LaBrie as absolutely killer too (he had a cold, so there are some overdubs present, but still, it's awesome).

I thought LATM was entirely overdubbed? But the vocals are awesome anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 01:44:43 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 25, 2012, 04:34:36 PM
I completely agree with you. I only wish he could have played it a little slower. It felt a tad rushed at times, especially during the first verses.
I am not usually bothered by playing a song faster or slower - in my head, it's always exactly the same song. But yes, it would have been better, because it would have been just far away enough from the original to keep it fresh and interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 02:16:40 AM
I know I've said this before, but I can't think of any DT song that sounds better live than on the album, except some WDADU songs with James singing (note: I love WDADU and I have no problem with Charlie's vocals on that album, but AFIL and TKH on Marquee and Afterlife on Score just gain more power with James' vocals).

And when it comes to the extended intros/solos/jams/whatever, they rarely impress me at all. Some of them can be cool (Another Hand, To Live Forever on Live in Tokyo), but none of them make the songs any better IMO. The worst offenders are Beyond This Life on Budokan (the instrumental section in the studio version is overkill already, but this takes it even further - ugh!), Surrounded on CIM (they managed to turn a beautiful song into a JP/JR wankfest - fortunately they played it in the original form for the upcoming live album) and Hollow Years on Budokan (that solo is SO overrated). I also find the extended intros to TSCO and Octavarium on Score and the beginning of the ToT portion in Schmedley Wilcox on CIM pretty boring. I mean, the intro to Octavarium is pretty long already, but Jordan manages to stretch it for a few minutes more - they could've found time for another song in the setlist had they not made TSCO and Octavarium so damn long!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 02:20:43 AM
I strongly disagree! I can only find 2 or so live extension that weren't good for the song in the whole live catalogue. One of them is what they did to Metropolis in 2009/2010 and the other was the overlong outro of Solitary Shell in the same timeframe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 02:55:06 AM
Well, unfortunately most of these extensions don't add anything to the songs in my eyes. However, I did watch Metropolis from Luna Park before the videos got taken down and the the little jam before James starts singing the last part sounded pretty neat - can't wait to see that on the DVD! But usually I prefer to hear the songs the way they've been written, with some little changes that make them a bit different from the studio versions. Maybe my overall lack of interest in the jams is part of the reason why I like Kevin Moore so much - he is more of a songwriter than an instrumentalist. Hopefully I didn't start yet another keyboardist debate! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 03:04:36 AM
Eh, I don't think the jams are all good or bad. The Take The Time live outro slays whatever the form, Hollow Years with the extended intro and solo and TSM with the full band are pretty awesome as well. Beyond This Life at Budokan was cool--Jordan and Mike's duet thing was pretty great, in particular. And, of course, any of James' vocal alterations pre-accident are incredible. However, Another Hand and the Surrounded flurry of notes detracted from the songs, and the later '96- version of TKH had good stuff (JPs final solo) and bad stuff (Why is Carol of the Bells in there???). So overall, there are some gems and some clunkers. However, I like the concept in general--actually means there's a real chance the version could be superior to the original if the live addition is cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:06:26 AM
There's a buttload of awesome extensions and jams that didn't make official DVDs but I do get what you're saying. It's just that, while Kev was around, they were mostly guitar jams, so it's better for us who love them to have keyboards in there as well, with Jordan and Derek :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 03:21:25 AM
Indeed. ?, why don't you check this awesome video? I uploaded it a while ago to show the world what can happen when the band plays To Live Forever  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VddMqW-I44

As it was said, it's a shame that the 99% of great live extensions/improvisations never made DVDs or even audio official releases. There should be a dedicated compilation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 03:28:32 AM
That TLF jam had some nice moments, but it's way too long. Oh, and I forgot the "electric" version of TSM, that's pretty cool (although not better than the studio version) actually! :tup

Time for another controversial opinion related to the live releases: I think Score is overrated. James is fortunately in top form and he saves the release, but unfortunately the setlist isn't the best possible: there are gems like TROAE, Afterlife and UAGM and it's also cool to hear Another Won in a more polished form and with better vocals, Innocence Faded is nice as well.

But mostly the setlist isn't great: I Walk Beside You is an anticlimax after Root, Raise the Knife is the most overrated of DT's B-sides and the live version didn't change my opinion on it and the extended intro to Spirit isn't that great. The second set isn't much better: they wasted 40 minutes playing Six Degrees (some parts sound nice with the orchestra, but for example in The Test they aren't doing anything - The Glass Prison would've been a much more fitting song for an anniversary show like this, since it's a fan favorite and hadn't been released on any official DVD), TALW is a good choice to be played with an orchestra, but the song itself isn't something I would include in a 20th anniversary setlist, and as said, Octavarium has that overlong intro.

But fortunately James sounds great and the whole band seems to be enjoying the gig a lot - those two factors and some great songs in the setlist save Score from being a lackluster release and obviously it's much better than Chaos in Motion. However, I still think Live in Tokyo is the best DVD DT have put out - awesome setlist, the band plays excellently and while the off-stage footage breaks the flow a bit, it's entertaining to watch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
Luckily for me, I dig all of SDOIT, and it has made Score really awesome for me; I also love concerts based on some sort of a concept so the "counting down" thing was even more awesome for me, especially since I didn't know the setlist before I watched it so it was a cool moment of revelation. I remember being slightly disappointed over the fact they chose to play UAGM, which I didn't like much at the time, but the DVD has improved my opinion of the song. JP's solo was as tight as on the original release and JLB beat his LIT performance of that song, easily.

LIT is an amazing DVD, I agree. I watched it so many times, I know it frame by frame. Doesn't hurt that it has Kevin playing ::) I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95 :hefdaddy (provided he was still interested in playing, of course)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 26, 2012, 03:52:41 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95 :hefdaddy

I would cry with joy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 03:55:42 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95 :hefdaddy
If Kev had stuck around to tour with DT and they had filmed some show(s) in the Awake era, it would be their best live release for sure! :hefdaddy I like Awake in Japan, but it was filmed after James' vocal rupture, there are no WDADU songs (they had been playing TOWHTSTS without keyboards in '94) and of course Kevin isn't there (not to say that Derek is bad).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 03:57:56 AM
I have to agree with regard of the Score setlist, even though I am not bothered at all by the long intros and the inclusion of The Answer Lies Within (it's a cool little song, from the album they were out promoting, worked great with the orchestra, so I'm ok with it making the cut). On the other side, I too think Raise The Knife is overrated (Speak To Me, that was played in the same tour, would have worked just as good and better!) and that the full SDOIT was detrimental to the economy of the show. But I can understand its inclusion. In 2006, SDOIT was still a hoge phenomenon in the DT land, and the suite had not been yet included in its entirety in an official Live Release. The idea of making it the centerpiece of the setlist was I think one of the greatest motives behind the necessity of a live testimnony of the Octavarium tour, besides the chronological imprint of the setlists. And yet, it always felt weak to me.

As for TLF, you are crazy :lol:

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
Luckily for me, I dig all of SDOIT, and it has made Score really awesome for me; I also love concerts based on some sort of a concept so the "counting down" thing was even more awesome for me, especially since I didn't know the setlist before I watched it so it was a cool moment of revelation. I remember being slightly disappointed over the fact they chose to play UAGM, which I didn't like much at the time, but the DVD has improved my opinion of the song. JP's solo was as tight as on the original release and JLB beat his LIT performance of that song, easily.

But... BEAR this honor in my NAAAAAAAAAAAME?  :( (the rest of the performance, especially instrumentally is of course superior in Score, though)

Quote
LIT is an amazing DVD, I agree. I watched it so many times, I know it frame by frame. Doesn't hurt that it has Kevin playing ::) I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95 :hefdaddy

I just wish they had included the whole performance. I'm still puzzled by their decision to leave out the two best songs of the album. You make a DVD of Images And Words Live and you don't include Metropolis and Learning To Live?  :yeahright

The Awake tour setlist wasn't that great, in all fairness. The one in the latter part of the tour imporoved, though. Still, they sticked with a short set, that didn't do justice to any album other than Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 04:02:05 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 03:57:56 AM
But... BEAR this honor in my NAAAAAAAAAAAME?  :( (the rest of the performance, especially instrumentally is of course superior in Score, though)
That's the only part that's better :laugh:

Quote from: ? on December 26, 2012, 03:55:42 AM
If Kev had stuck around to tour with DT and they had filmed some show(s) in the Awake era, it would be their best live release for sure! :hefdaddy I like Awake in Japan, but it was filmed after James' vocal rupture, there are no WDADU songs (they had been playing TOWHTSTS without keyboards in '94) and of course Kevin isn't there (not to say that Derek is bad).
Not just after, but really closely after. I like watching it sometimes for the setlist but mostly it just makes me want to teleport on that stage with tea and hugs for James, the poor thing :sadpanda: and yeah, I love Derek too, and his interpretations of IAW/Awake were both interesting and good, but this premise is SO interesting to me.

Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 26, 2012, 04:10:26 AM
Piano > Continuum

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 04:02:05 AM
Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want :lol

I think that it was a good decision to not play it without Kevin. After all, it is pretty much just Kevin and Kevin (JLB) there. Guitar is basically playing power chords and drums enter very late in the song.

And I don't wanna hear Anna Lee with JR. It is a Derek song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 04:12:22 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 03:57:56 AM
I too think Raise The Knife is overrated (Speak To Me, that was played in the same tour, would have worked just as good and better!) and that the full SDOIT was detrimental to the economy of the show. But I can understand its inclusion. In 2006, SDOIT was still a hoge phenomenon in the DT land, and the suite had not been yet included in its entirety in an official Live Release. The idea of making it the centerpiece of the setlist was I think one of the greatest motives behind the necessity of a live testimnony of the Octavarium tour, besides the chronological imprint of the setlists. And yet, it always felt weak to me.
Yes, Speak to Me is amazing! But obviously MP picked Raise the Knife because it had never been on a live release and Speak to Me was on 5YIALT already. Regarding Six Degrees: in terms of the representation of albums in the setlist, it was unfair to pick a 42-minute piece from Six Degrees and just a 3-minute song from TOT.
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 03:57:56 AM
I just wish they had included the whole performance. I'm still puzzled by their decision to leave out the two best songs of the album. You make a DVD of Images And Words Live and you don't include Metropolis and Learning To Live?  :yeahright
Yeah, LIT would be even better if it included the full concert: Metropolis, Afterlife, Eve and LTL proshot from I&W era would be :drool: :hefdaddy
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 04:02:05 AM
Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want :lol
I find not playing SDV live both understandable and not understandable: of course it's KM's song, but DT have played loads of cover songs, even cover versions of full albums, yet they don't want to play one of their own songs that happens to be written by an ex-member? They played lots of songs mostly written by KevMo on the last tour already: 6:00, Surrounded and most notably Wait for Sleep. Lots of bands play songs that were 100% penned by an ex-member and some of them even have personal lyrics - why can't DT do that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 04:17:30 AM
I once again beg to disagree. As for the Piano/Continuum, it's all a matter of making sense. Either can be perfect or totally out of place. The continuum at the beginning of Octavarium is perfect, and so is the continuum solo at the end of Stargazer. A piano solo, though, is generally more interesting, layered and pleasant than a continuum solo like the one that ended up on CiM, but I'm not sure I would say the same if the latter had been something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrmp2EaVChI .

On the other side, I think that playing SDV and AL wouldn't be neither disrespectful towards their main inspirator nor out of place. Dream Theater is a band with a great present, but also a marvellous past. Why shouldn't it be celebrated? Playing Space Dye Vest live would be a great tribute to Kevin and to his unique contribution to the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 26, 2012, 04:22:06 AM
Hmm yes, I wouldn't like to hear a piano solo at the end of the TDEN  :lol. I just think that Rudess should use more piano.

But I'm not changing my mind with SDV. Unless Kevin comes and plays it onstage with DT. And I don't think it's going to happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 04:38:54 AM
Quote from: ? on December 26, 2012, 03:28:32 AM
Time for another controversial opinion related to the live releases: I think Score is overrated. James is fortunately in top form and he saves the release, but unfortunately the setlist isn't the best possible: there are gems like TROAE, Afterlife and UAGM and it's also cool to hear Another Won in a more polished form and with better vocals, Innocence Faded is nice as well.

But mostly the setlist isn't great: I Walk Beside You is an anticlimax after Root, Raise the Knife is the most overrated of DT's B-sides and the live version didn't change my opinion on it and the extended intro to Spirit isn't that great. The second set isn't much better: they wasted 40 minutes playing Six Degrees (some parts sound nice with the orchestra, but for example in The Test they aren't doing anything - The Glass Prison would've been a much more fitting song for an anniversary show like this, since it's a fan favorite and hadn't been released on any official DVD), TALW is a good choice to be played with an orchestra, but the song itself isn't something I would include in a 20th anniversary setlist, and as said, Octavarium has that overlong intro.

But fortunately James sounds great and the whole band seems to be enjoying the gig a lot - those two factors and some great songs in the setlist save Score from being a lackluster release and obviously it's much better than Chaos in Motion. However, I still think Live in Tokyo is the best DVD DT have put out - awesome setlist, the band plays excellently and while the off-stage footage breaks the flow a bit, it's entertaining to watch.

I pretty much agree with all of this, except I still have Score slightly higher than Live in Tokyo for sound quality and simple length reasons. Also right with wasteland's train of thought on this matter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 04:17:30 AM
... it's all a matter of making sense.
I think these should go down as JLB's most quotable words ever ;D

Quote from: ? on December 26, 2012, 04:12:22 AM
I find not playing SDV live both understandable and not understandable: of course it's KM's song, but DT have played loads of cover songs, even cover versions of full albums, yet they don't want to play one of their own songs that happens to be written by an ex-member? They played lots of songs mostly written by KevMo on the last tour already: 6:00, Surrounded and most notably Wait for Sleep. Lots of bands play songs that were 100% penned by an ex-member and some of them even have personal lyrics - why can't DT do that?
I find it understandable in the MP era, since he didn't want to play it. Now, I think it would be excellent of them if they played it, because there is no harm whatsoever. I really cannot conceive why would that be disrespectful to Kevin. He has moved on from DT in the true sense of that word, so playing the only song off the official albums that didn't get the live, full-band treatment would not be logical, but also welcomed by a lot of us who are fans of that song, or who are not fans of silly arbitrary conventions about which songs are "off limits". There shouldn't be anything off limits. Just like you said, Wait For Sleep is just as much as Kevin's baby as SDV. SDV only received special treatment because someone decided it should have special treatment.

Now if Kevin said "never play this song without me", I would have understood. But from all I've read, it seems that is not the case, not to mention the fact he has rejected to get out on stage with DT to play it. Furthermore, he doesn't appear to be sensitive about the song in any shape or form - he doesn't mind drawing comparisons from that to other songs of his, or discussing the subject matter, and he has said that he is fine with DT putting it on Awake because it gave DT fans a hint of where will he go musically afterwards.

@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song :)

JP also explictly said on the 5YIALT commentary the music isn't all Derek's either. In fact, MP said "the music was mostly Derek" and JP went out of his way to correct him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:47:56 AM
That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 05:50:07 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:47:56 AM
That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.

The most awkward being? The dynamics of that bit remind me of the way the conversation developed when JM mentioned their old writing method/routine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 05:50:07 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:47:56 AM
That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.

The most awkward being? The dynamics of that bit remind me of the way the conversation developed when JM mentioned their old writing method/routine.

At least with the Anna Lee bit MP conceded "maybe."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
I find it understandable in the MP era, since he didn't want to play it. Now, I think it would be excellent of them if they played it, because there is no harm whatsoever. I really cannot conceive why would that be disrespectful to Kevin. He has moved on from DT in the true sense of that word, so playing the only song off the official albums that didn't get the live, full-band treatment would not be logical, but also welcomed by a lot of us who are fans of that song, or who are not fans of silly arbitrary conventions about which songs are "off limits". There shouldn't be anything off limits. Just like you said, Wait For Sleep is just as much as Kevin's baby as SDV. SDV only received special treatment because someone decided it should have special treatment.

Now if Kevin said "never play this song without me", I would have understood. But from all I've read, it seems that is not the case, not to mention the fact he has rejected to get out on stage with DT to play it. Furthermore, he doesn't appear to be sensitive about the song in any shape or form - he doesn't mind drawing comparisons from that to other songs of his, or discussing the subject matter, and he has said that he is fine with DT putting it on Awake because it gave DT fans a hint of where will he go musically afterwards.
Agreed completely. By now it's become perfectly clear that Kevin will never appear on the same stage with Dream Theater again, so if they want to play it at some point, now would be the right time. And if JP and JM don't like the song enough, JLB and JR could perform it as a duo version like they did at that solo show of Jordan's. It would be a nice little breather, especially if they returned to the "evening with" format.

EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 26, 2012, 08:59:49 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song :)

Ahh yeah, that's how it is. I just remember reading from somewhere that somebody claimed it to be Derek song and thus it will not be played live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on December 26, 2012, 09:24:58 AM
Yeah the intro to 8V (song) on Score was too long and whenever I watch it on DVD or hear it I think to myself it's what
caused the band to pay a fine for running long that night. On such an already long song it just seemed unnecessary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 26, 2012, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 05:13:19 AM
@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song :)

JP also explictly said on the 5YIALT commentary the music isn't all Derek's either. In fact, MP said "the music was mostly Derek" and JP went out of his way to correct him.

I noticed that too.  It made me question a lot of Mike's versions of events
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: ? on December 26, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on December 26, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
Case in point: DT @Madison Square Garden, 04/04/03.

Quote
1. As I Am
2. This Dying Soul
3. Beyond This Life
4. Hollow Years
5. The Great Debate
6. Endless Sacrifice
7. Another Day
8. Trial of Tears
---Intermission---
9. A Change of Seasons
10. Caught in a Web
11. Honor Thy Father
12. Vacant
13. Stream of Consciousness
14. Disappear
---Encore---
15. Pull Me Under
16. In the Name of God
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: ? on December 26, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:

You are dead, lady  :rollin


How about:
Quote
   Cleveland, 20.03.2004

band history video (intro tape)
1.  As I Am
2.  This Dying Soul
3.  The Mirror/The Mirror (reprise)
4.  short piano set-up
5.  Through My Words
6.  Fatal Tragedy
7.  Hollow Years (w/ extended guitar solo)
8.  War Inside My Head
9.  The Test That Stumped Them All
10.  A Fortune in Lies
11.  Endless Sacrifice
12.  Finally Free
~~~intermission~~~
13.  Metropolis part 1
14.  Honor Thy Father
15.  keyboard solo
A Mind Beside Itself:
16.  I Erotomania
17.  II Voices (abridged)
18.  III The Silent Man (electric version)
19.  In the Name of God
~~~encore~~~
Dead Poets Society (intro tape)
A Change of Seasons:
20.  I The Crimson Sunrise
21.  II Innocence
22.  III Carpe Diem
23.  IV The Darkest of Winters
24.  V Another World
25.  VI The Inevitable Summer
26.  VII The Crimson Sunset
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 26, 2012, 10:01:38 PM
Quote from: wasteland on December 26, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
How about:
Quote
   Cleveland, 20.03.2004

band history video (intro tape)
1.  As I Am
2.  This Dying Soul
3.  The Mirror/The Mirror (reprise)
4.  short piano set-up
5.  Through My Words
6.  Fatal Tragedy
7.  Hollow Years (w/ extended guitar solo)
8.  War Inside My Head
9.  The Test That Stumped Them All
10.  A Fortune in Lies
11.  Endless Sacrifice
12.  Finally Free
~~~intermission~~~
13.  Metropolis part 1
14.  Honor Thy Father
15.  keyboard solo
A Mind Beside Itself:
16.  I Erotomania
17.  II Voices (abridged)
18.  III The Silent Man (electric version)
19.  In the Name of God
~~~encore~~~
Dead Poets Society (intro tape)
A Change of Seasons:
20.  I The Crimson Sunrise
21.  II Innocence
22.  III Carpe Diem
23.  IV The Darkest of Winters
24.  V Another World
25.  VI The Inevitable Summer
26.  VII The Crimson Sunset

Now THAT's a setlist I'd love to see on a DVD. Maybe swap out some of the TOT material, but that's about all that separates this from perfection in a pre-8V setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, The Great Debate or Caught in a Web?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 01:22:29 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 01:22:29 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 26, 2012, 03:32:31 PM
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 02:02:24 AM
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 02:02:24 AM
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Except that, on that tour, Budokan was one of the nights where he was more tired than usual. He talked about how frustrated he was over the fact he had more or less an off-night on the most important show of the tour, but there was nothing they could do:

Quote
"James:And you were talking about Live at Budokan. Well, unfortunately I would have loved to have gone in and re-sang that whole fuckin’ thing, cause that was one of my worst nights on that whole tour, and it was like, “What do I do? Do I cheat? Do I go into the studio and re-do it? Do I just leave what it is and that’s it?”

Jaime:   That’s the essence, though.

James:    Yeah, I mean, it was really unfortunate, because, usually when a band does something like that, a three-hour show, you usually have a day off before. We were jamming the night before-We did the three-hour show the night before. It was just trying to fit things in. And to a vocalist, it’s just completely unfair. But anyways, whatever…
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
What James said is actually not completely accurate. Unless I am misunderstanding him and they reharsed the whole budokan show the night before the actual gig, they had no show the 25th of April (budokan being recorded the 26th).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 03:14:56 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 03:05:43 AM
What James said is actually not completely accurate. Unless I am misunderstanding him and they reharsed the whole budokan show the night before the actual gig, they had no show the 25th of April (budokan being recorded the 26th).
I think this means they had a full show 24th and rehearsal 25th but my reading comprehension sucks balls :D
Edit: yup, they did have one on the 24th so that miiight be it. And a couple before. And on this one they played a set with ACOS and the entire Number Of The Beast. Ouch. Yeah I can see how that happened to him :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 03:19:41 AM
Yes, they had a show the 24th! And not a light one as they played Number Of The Beast, A Mind Beside Itself and ACOS. And that was the last of a string of three shows in a row.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 03:21:38 AM
Some poor planning, huh? But they had no other choice I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 03:26:07 AM
I guess so. Still playing a whole album meant for another singer and challanging on its own the show before a DVD recording was not the wisest choice. It's a shame that budokan went out like that, as there were some performances from that tour that can even be ranked on par with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 27, 2012, 03:28:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 01:22:29 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Totally agreed - MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums, so it wouldn't have happened anyway. And as said, James wasn't in the best condition during that show, so those versions would've been clearly inferior to the LSFNY ones (not that the LSFNY versions are perfect, either). I also agree that they should've played TGP and TDS back to back - I'm not a huge fan of the latter, but it would've been a great opportunity to play the first 2 parts of the 12-step suite in the same setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 03:35:09 AM
They had the chance to do it twice, as the TGP>TDS segue was played in both the ToT and the Octavarium tour. It's clear, and comprehensible, that MP was hesitating of including 25 minutes of music that he envisioned as a work in progress that should have been properly and officially showcased only upon completion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 05:40:59 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 02:02:24 AM
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Except that, on that tour, Budokan was one of the nights where he was more tired than usual. He talked about how frustrated he was over the fact he had more or less an off-night on the most important show of the tour, but there was nothing they could do:

Quote
"James:And you were talking about Live at Budokan. Well, unfortunately I would have loved to have gone in and re-sang that whole fuckin’ thing, cause that was one of my worst nights on that whole tour, and it was like, “What do I do? Do I cheat? Do I go into the studio and re-do it? Do I just leave what it is and that’s it?”

Jaime:   That’s the essence, though.

James:    Yeah, I mean, it was really unfortunate, because, usually when a band does something like that, a three-hour show, you usually have a day off before. We were jamming the night before-We did the three-hour show the night before. It was just trying to fit things in. And to a vocalist, it’s just completely unfair. But anyways, whatever…

Yeah, I've seen that interview and it's really interesting. Didn't mean to come off like I was bashing James or something--I've seen plenty of footage from that era where he sounds great. I just meant that, regardless of how legitimate the reasons may be, the fact is that he wasn't in good form that night, and thus having great songs included wouldn't necessarily have meant the DVD would be their best or anything. To me, the only really worthwhile Budokan tracks are the ones where they changed something--Hollow Years, Beyond This Life, and ITNOG--the rest just don't outdo the studio versions because the studio versions have better vocals and at-least-as-good musicianship. So they could have thrown LTL, AMBI, ACOS, whatever in there, and it probably still wouldn't have ultimately been a great release despite the great setlist choices.

In the same sense, WDADRU is a great concept that I'm very glad they tried, but he didn't happen to have a good night there either. Again, there's a legitimate reason for that too--it was the second set of a show, so his voice was already somewhat spent, and I'm sure it was right in the middle of a tough schedule (not sure on specifics). But the fact that you can explain James' performance away and that it's no fault of his own doesn't actually make the show better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 06:29:13 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 05:40:59 AM
But the fact that you can explain James' performance away and that it's no fault of his own doesn't actually make the show better.
Yeah, I hear you! I didn't want to say that the better solution would have been to replace Budokan's setlist with some better setlist under the same circumstances, but avoiding those circumstances all together. Luckily, for Score (and for the new DVD!) the situation improved :tup and for Budokan, it is what it is. Not a lot of people even mind James' vocs on that show, otherwise it wouldn't have been heralded as a monster show, as I often hear people call it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.

I think that's a fairly good summary, although I found him to be slightly more pitchy and uncontrolled on LSFNY overall, especially in the upper register. I think after changing vocal coach, he dialed back on the big screams and has sung the upper register with a cleaner, more controlled technique. And I think the really long set of LSFNY is also a factor.
Keep in mind, I said I find Budokan *slightly* better, so I'm kinda splitting hairs here. Both shows had their fair share of strengths and weaknesses vocally, and the wear on JLB's voice is showing by the end of both shows. I just think he's a bit more "on" for Budokan. And I know many people prefer LSFNY, which is also fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:31:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.

I think that's a fairly good summary, although I found him to be slightly more pitchy and uncontrolled on LSFNY overall, especially in the upper register. I think after changing vocal coach, he dialed back on the big screams and has sung the upper register with a cleaner, more controlled technique. And I think the really long set of LSFNY is also a factor.
Keep in mind, I said I find Budokan *slightly* better, so I'm kinda splitting hairs here. Both shows had their fair share of strengths and weaknesses vocally, and the wear on JLB's voice is showing by the end of both shows. I just think he's a bit more "on" for Budokan. And I know many people prefer LSFNY, which is also fine.

Yeah, that's totally fair. Incidentally, you mention him dialing back the big screams around that time (a very true observation), which makes me wonder: what made him bring them back in such full force on the ADTOE tour? Did he just suddenly decide to go back to them after eschewing them for over a decade, or was it some sort of MP-not-wanting-them thing that then got lifted? I've been wondering about this a lot, because I LOVE that he's gone back to that, but I've never really heard any explanation or even speculation as to why.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
He didn't just suddenly bring them back this tour though. He's started using them more gradually over the last few tours, from about the Octavarium tour onwards. I think he's probably just gotten better with his vocal technique and training to the point where he can start using them without straining his voice too much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 10:43:06 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:31:23 AM
Yeah, that's totally fair. Incidentally, you mention him dialing back the big screams around that time (a very true observation), which makes me wonder: what made him bring them back in such full force on the ADTOE tour? Did he just suddenly decide to go back to them after eschewing them for over a decade, or was it some sort of MP-not-wanting-them thing that then got lifted? I've been wondering about this a lot, because I LOVE that he's gone back to that, but I've never really heard any explanation or even speculation as to why.

I can't say that the thought never crossed my mind, but in all fairness, it's not very likely. On the other hand, I think that was a concequence of the split in the way that James too, as with all the other band members, decided to step up to fill the hole left, and more or less intentionally he did such on stage as well as in all the other matters. Or maybe he just felt a greater degree of freedom to tune his live performances by himself, just like he was allowed to do with his studio vocals, which he recorded in Canada on his own, with just a few imputs by the producer.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
He didn't just suddenly bring them back this tour though. He's started using them more gradually over the last few tours, from about the Octavarium tour onwards. I think he's probably just gotten better with his vocal technique and training to the point where he can start using them without straining his voice too much.

True, but the increase was to steep and cospicuous to be casual. In the whole BCSL tour, that I once scanned for impromptu high notes, I could find the totality of ONE high scream (the last line of As I Am), and yet most of his performances were quite strong (albeit not as strong as the best legs of ADTOE). On the Octavarium tour there was some cute screaming (not as raspy and aggressive as in 2012) yes, but in the CiM tour the high notes were more sporadic, and some of them (LITS) were quite cringeworthy :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

Those you listed were the first screams of this tour. The best (and wildest) were introduced later: 6:00, TDEN, Surrounded, PMU, AIA, BMUBMD and so on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

I disagree. I remember quite a few high screams from previous tours, and I don't think it's been a huge change.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

Those you listed were the first screams of this tour. The best (and wildest) were introduced later: 6:00, TDEN, Surrounded, PMU, AIA, BMUBMD and so on.

The man sure has rekindled his relationship with G#5s, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I'm not saying that to criticize, as he has sounded amazing on the last few tours, but I think it is just a consequence of getting older.

Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 11:55:30 AM
James' screams always sounded kind of raspy to me, even back in his heyday. Now, they are a bit raspier and slightly diminished now, but there's still plenty of power there, power that a lot of (rightfully) well-regarded singers would still kill for. But part of the appeal with the screams, at least to me, is that they aren't just these big clear notes--they're really high, but they have balls. And they just explode over the top of the song as a result, in a fashion I haven't heard many singers successfully emulate (whereas a ton of singers, and just about anyone really, can do the big clean notes with some practice).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I think I could have worded it better.  Not being a trained vocalist I am trying to figure out how to convey what I mean. 

For instance, in Under a Glass Moon when he says "Praying for TIME to disappear", nowadays the word "time" is not controlled in the sense that he can control the exact note to hit.  On the ADTOE tour he essentially just screamed the word "time" and it sounded great, don't get me wrong, but sometimes when you scream a word like that instead of sing it, it will sound a million times better than if you were to sing it and hit the wrong note.  There are other examples that I can't think of right now, but I think the screaming that he does sounds awesome but I consider that less controlled as far as pitch and intonation is concerned.  I don't mind it one bit but i think it is an ever so small example of how his age is catching up with him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 12:26:22 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I think I could have worded it better.  Not being a trained vocalist I am trying to figure out how to convey what I mean. 

For instance, in Under a Glass Moon when he says "Praying for TIME to disappear", nowadays the word "time" is not controlled in the sense that he can control the exact note to hit.  On the ADTOE tour he essentially just screamed the word "time" and it sounded great, don't get me wrong, but sometimes when you scream a word like that instead of sing it, it will sound a million times better than if you were to sing it and hit the wrong note.  There are other examples that I can't think of right now, but I think the screaming that he does sounds awesome but I consider that less controlled as far as pitch and intonation is concerned.  I don't mind it one bit but i think it is an ever so small example of how his age is catching up with him.

If I recall correctly, all the "TIME" notes are G#5s, though I wouldn't be surprised if he was off by half a step here or there with some of the performances. I think some of the effect you mention has to do with the fact that a lot of the notes he's screaming now are G#s, As, and even Bbs, whereas back in '93 he was doing a lot of Fs, F#s, and Gs (general statements; obviously there are exceptions). So he's actually doing higher ones nowadays, which is, of course, going to make the note a bit more strained as he approaches his limit (which is probably something like a B or C at this point) compared to the ones from like '93. Listen to how he sounds doing, say, the LTL F# now--it retains a lot more openness than those "TIME" screams (at least on James' good days!).

I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 27, 2012, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 12:26:22 PM
I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.
This was a great discussion (this thread has really went beyond my expectations) and I think this paragraph summarizes it :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 12:58:14 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 27, 2012, 12:26:22 PM
I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.

Yeah, but James actually took the time and effort to take care of his voice, studying with Jamie Vendera and all. And Vendera is like a freaking authority on vocal care, so I'm sure he helped James with placement and daily maintenance and other things, so that whatever James may be doing with his voice right now, doesn't actually hurt or deteriorate his vocal cords.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 27, 2012, 02:36:42 PM
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 27, 2012, 02:36:42 PM
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.

Not only that, but wood, metal, and whatever else modern instruments are made of is all quality check tested and resilient enough to withstand the kinds of punishments it gets. You can't just get "better vocal cords" so all you have to work with is what God gave you and what you've developed. So that makes it that much more difficult, because not everyone can handle the same kind of punishment, or the kind of discipline it takes to maintain their voice. I mean, if a guitar or a drum breaks down, you can always get another. But if a voice breaks down, that's it, so it's that much more crucial to take care of it, and yeah, any vocalist who can manage to do that for as long as James has deserves a damn trophy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 10:33:04 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 27, 2012, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 27, 2012, 02:36:42 PM
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.

Not only that, but wood, metal, and whatever else modern instruments are made of is all quality check tested and resilient enough to withstand the kinds of punishments it gets. You can't just get "better vocal cords" so all you have to work with is what God gave you and what you've developed. So that makes it that much more difficult, because not everyone can handle the same kind of punishment, or the kind of discipline it takes to maintain their voice. I mean, if a guitar or a drum breaks down, you can always get another. But if a voice breaks down, that's it, so it's that much more crucial to take care of it, and yeah, any vocalist who can manage to do that for as long as James has deserves a damn trophy.

Totally agree.  His range is amazing especially given what he has been through.  It's also quite odd that someone that can hit those high notes has such a warmth to his voice.  Some singers that sing that high have a more thin sounding voice.  Not James, which is why he is so perfect in DT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 28, 2012, 01:37:02 AM
I like how this thread has derailed completely! :lol

But yeah, it's amazing how great James still sounds after all he's been through.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 28, 2012, 01:41:30 AM
Quote from: ? on December 28, 2012, 01:37:02 AM
I like how this thread has derailed completely! :lol

Still, this probably the best proper discussion thread we've had in the DT side in a few months!

Quote
But yeah, it's amazing how great James still sounds after all he's been through.

And yeah, the 2012 James is probably his best and most consistent incarnation since 1992-1993  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: slycordinator on December 28, 2012, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless.
On the other hand, listen to some of his live performances with Sabbath. He got into the habit of trying a growly-type voice especially for the somewhat lower registers and to me, it sounds awful; as a youtube commenter put it for one vid, it sounded as if he was gargling with drain cleaner. I seriously wish he had stuck to the style he'd used on the actual records.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 28, 2012, 11:07:24 PM
Quote from: slycordinator on December 28, 2012, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM
Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless.
On the other hand, listen to some of his live performances with Sabbath. He got into the habit of trying a growly-type voice especially for the somewhat lower registers and to me, it sounds awful; as a youtube commenter put it for one vid, it sounded as if he was gargling with drain cleaner. I seriously wish he had stuck to the style he'd used on the actual records.

Thats actually another good example of how his voice suffered towards the end.  He covered for it well because most people couldnt tell, but after being a somewhat obsessive fan of his and hearing various live recordings of his, I was able to compare some and here the parts that he most often altered in a live setting.  The times he did not do that you could see his voice was straining a little bit.  For instance, when he sang the lyrics "I'm the man on the SIIIIILVER Moooooountaaain" he would usually alter it in so the word "silver" was an octave lower.  Not a difficult note to reach by any means, but in the phrasing with the style of his vocals, it actually is difficult.

Like James, Dio is still awesome regardless. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 29, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 28, 2012, 11:07:24 PM
Like James, Dio is still awesome regardless.

Unlike Dio, I hope James lives for a long, long time, and then becomes a head in a jar Futurama style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 29, 2012, 12:53:16 AM
There would be no room for all the hair  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 29, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 29, 2012, 12:53:16 AM
There would be no room for all the hair  :lol

Well at least the back side of his head would be full of hair. :lol


Futurama Ozzy would bite the heads of all the jars live in concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 29, 2012, 05:52:12 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 03:28:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 01:22:29 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Totally agreed - MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums, so it wouldn't have happened anyway.

So Just Let Me Breathe on OIALT and Live Scenes was OK, but ACOS and AMBI weren't? Mike, Mike, Mike...  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 29, 2012, 06:08:09 AM
Quote from: Ruba on December 29, 2012, 05:52:12 AM
So Just Let Me Breathe on OIALT and Live Scenes was OK, but ACOS and AMBI weren't? Mike, Mike, Mike...  :\
JLMB is just a 5½-minute song, ACOS and AMBI are over 20 minutes long, so it's a different case. Besides, JLMB isn't on the DVD version of Live Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 29, 2012, 06:14:02 AM
Quality over length, my friend. I could sacrifice 3-4 mortal Dream Theater songs to have ACOS on DVD.

But in any case, I like the song rotation between live albums. Iron Maiden just keeps playing The Trooper/The Evil That Men Do/The Number of the Beast, even though they've worn me out three live albums ago  :P.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: slycordinator on December 29, 2012, 09:44:29 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 28, 2012, 11:07:24 PM
Thats actually another good example of how his voice suffered towards the end.  He covered for it well because most people couldnt tell, but after being a somewhat obsessive fan of his and hearing various live recordings of his, I was able to compare some and here the parts that he most often altered in a live setting.
Actually, I was referring to stuff he did with Sabbath during his prime, when his voice wasn't actually suffering and he actively chose to do the growling vocals that were just atrocious. There were times where I think he might've thought doing that made them seem "edgier" or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 10:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:44 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 10:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 11:18:17 PM
Another Day >> Metropolis (though Metropolis is still a good song)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 29, 2012, 11:37:05 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:44 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 10:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!


I'll agree greatly on the 1st and 3rd, and disagree highly on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:42:18 PM
Quote from: CableX 1814 on December 29, 2012, 11:37:05 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:44 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 10:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!


I'll agree greatly on the 1st and 3rd, and disagree highly on the 2nd.

Your opinions make baby Petrucci cry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 11:51:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:54:59 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 11:51:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.

I'm not even factoring in production, I'm just factoring in the amateurish songwriting, and very poor melodies and phrasing. Even with their minor faults, TDEN, CM and AROP are very well constructed songs, and there's not even a comparison in how far ahead the songwriting is for them imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 30, 2012, 12:33:21 AM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 12:40:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:54:59 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 11:51:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.

I'm not even factoring in production, I'm just factoring in the amateurish songwriting, and very poor melodies and phrasing. Even with their minor faults, TDEN, CM and AROP are very well constructed songs, and there's not even a comparison in how far ahead the songwriting is for them imo.

The WDADU album as a whole has plenty of amateur moments, and I love SC (my #3 DT album) and BCSL (5 or 6) but I disagree. I think AROP's and TDEN's instrumental sections, in particular, are quite jarring and add nothing and/or detract from the songs. TKH, on the other hand (if you use, say, the Marquee version), might have the most effortless flow of any of DT's "intricate" compositions, with disparate verses and riffs melding together seamlessly. Afterlife also is very well-constructed.

Constant Motion is pretty well-done, though I don't see any obvious reason to think it's better-written than, say, AFIL. The biggest weakness with those songs' original versions is that they were written for the wrong singer, which is immature, but with LaBrie they come together quite well.

I will say that AROP and TDEN are certainly ahead of LFAGA, TOWHTSTS, and OAMOT in terms of maturity. I get where you're coming from. I just don't think WDADU can all be put into that same pot--it's not a uniformly immature album; instead, like many first albums, it shows flashes of maturity of brilliance but does waver in spots.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 30, 2012, 02:00:11 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 30, 2012, 12:33:21 AM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.
QFT. I think the vocal melodies in the verses of both TDEN and AROP are pretty lazy, CM doesn't shine in that department, either. The instrumental section in AROP also feels like it was thrown there just for the sake of making it longer and a bit more complex than an average hit single. And while I guess TDEN is supposed to be chaotic, it feels just random and wanky - even The Dance of Eternity sounds more carefully structured.

Obviously WD&DU has some clunky moments, but they can be excused somehow because the band members were still so young. But Systematic Chaos was the 9th DT album and at that point I think they could've easily come up with better written songs than TDEN, for example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 02:14:44 AM
IMO, the AROP Bebot solo is as immature as just about anything else in DT history, too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 30, 2012, 02:15:08 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 30, 2012, 12:33:21 AM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.

:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 02:27:55 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 30, 2012, 12:33:21 AM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.

Aside from maybe TDEN, there's nothing nu-metal about those songs. Not a metal fan, I take it? Learn your metal.
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.
WDADU largely fails at the most basic levels of songwriting, with clunky and awkward phrasing that could only have been written by a bunch of young amateurs, and tacked together songwriting that even puts AROP's instrumental section to shame. At best WDADU manages passable.

Present DT's "lazy" songwriting is still leagues ahead of early DT's best attempts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 02:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 30, 2012, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 02:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.
The whole song is better-written than any of those. And songs like A Fortune in Lies, Status Seeker and Ytse Jam aren't any worse-structured than, say, The Ministry of Lost Souls.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 04:14:13 AM
The only song of WDADU that I find seriously lacking music and vocally wise (and I'm not taking into account Charlie's vocals, or I would need to downgrade the whole album more than it deserves) is The Ones Who Help To.... There is nothing I would call seriously wrong with the other song, besides a certain quirkiness in the melodies of LFAGA. Songs like A Fortune In Lies, Afterlife and The Killing Hand, on the other hand (no pun intended) can walk proudly among most newere DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 30, 2012, 04:31:20 AM
I love TOWHTSTS! :( I have no problem with the vocal lines in that song at all (except maybe "My melting hands streaked the glass", which sounds a bit awkward), and while there are quite many tempo changes, it doesn't feel like multiple songs glued together, unlike some later DT songs (Octavarium, The Ministry of Lost Souls). However, Light Fuse & Get Away is clearly the weak point of WD&DU in terms of structuring and vocal phrasing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 30, 2012, 04:33:36 AM
I don't mind The Ones... but it's the least memorable song from the album for me (but not the worst).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 04:49:01 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 02:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.

Afterlife does have a really good chorus, and it's definitely one of my favourites off the album (especially for its more conventional structure), but the song still has songwriting issues. It highlights their early problems with the bass fitting the correct register and gelling with the song. The bass behind that thrashy riff really clashes. It's more obvious on Score with a better mix than it is on WDADU though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 04:59:39 AM
I think the question really becomes which issue you take more offense to: an instrument (including vocals) not fitting the song, or a section not fitting the song. WDADU certainly is a worse offender in the former category (AROP Bebot solo aside), but with a few exceptions (the bad "transitions" in LFAGA being the most glaring), most of the sections in WDADU gel better as songs than the latter-day DT stuff, where they've fallen into a habit of pasting in long instrumental sections with different grooves, tempos, and time signatures than are contained in the rest of the song.

So it really depends on what jars you more. For me, I can ignore/compartmentalize out a bass part or some vocal phrasing. I can't ignore an entire section of a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:12:45 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 04:59:39 AM
I think the question really becomes which issue you take more offense to: an instrument (including vocals) not fitting the song, or a section not fitting the song. WDADU certainly is a worse offender in the former category (AROP Bebot solo aside), but with a few exceptions (the bad "transitions" in LFAGA being the most glaring), most of the sections in WDADU gel better as songs than the latter-day DT stuff, where they've fallen into a habit of pasting in long instrumental sections with different grooves, tempos, and time signatures than are contained in the rest of the song.

So it really depends on what jars you more. For me, I can ignore/compartmentalize out a bass part or some vocal phrasing. I can't ignore an entire section of a song.

I don't agree that WDADU gels better than more recent songs. Yeah, newer DT songs do have some jarring transitions, but the issue is overblown in general, and the sections are long enough that a transition here or there doesn't affect the flow that much at all. WDADU switches around more often, and more regularly abandons the tempo and switches on a dime. Not that there aren't several examples of modern DT doing that (such as AROP's pasted in instrumental section), but a lot of the modern transitions that people criticize are a hell of a lot smoother than WDADU. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 05:33:16 AM
I don't think I have very many truly controversial opinions.  6:00 and The Great Debate are each among my least favorite DT songs; I think that's probably about as controversial as I get, really. 

Unless you count my undying love for the JLB version of To Live Forever as controversial. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 05:35:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:12:45 AM
I don't agree that WDADU gels better than more recent songs.

The album as a whole doesn't cohere better, but there are certainly spots/songs that gel better than some of the lower lights on recent albums. The worst song (and worst-written song) by DT since 2007 is worse (and worse-written) than the best song on WDADU.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:12:45 AM
the sections are long enough that a transition here or there doesn't affect the flow that much at all

I think this is also the root of some of this disagreement. The way I see it, the excessive length of these pasted-in sections actually hurts the flow of the song. When it inevitably returns to its original groove for a final verse or chorus, you have that "Oh...yeah...I remember how the song went like this five minutes ago" moment, where you have to quickly re-orient yourself back to where the song was before the instrumental section--see Outcry for a particularly egregious example. Whereas with WDADU, yeah the band was kind of all over the place, but that kind of keeps you alert when you listen to it. The band doesn't settle into a groove for four minutes and then pull the rug out from under you for no apparent reason. That doesn't mean it's fantastically written or anything, but once I heard the better WDADU songs a few times I just got used to the arrangements. On the other hand, the lesser songs from WDADU, and from all eras of DT really (including songs like AROP and TDEN), will always have sections that make me go "Why is this here?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:44:54 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 05:35:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:12:45 AM
I don't agree that WDADU gels better than more recent songs.

The album as a whole doesn't cohere better, but there are certainly spots/songs that gel better than some of the lower lights on recent albums. The worst song (and worst-written song) by DT since 2007 is worse (and worse-written) than the best song on WDADU.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:12:45 AM
the sections are long enough that a transition here or there doesn't affect the flow that much at all

I think this is also the root of some of this disagreement. The way I see it, the excessive length of these pasted-in sections actually hurts the flow of the song. When it inevitably returns to its original groove for a final verse or chorus, you have that "Oh...yeah...I remember how the song went like this five minutes ago" moment, where you have to quickly re-orient yourself back to where the song was before the instrumental section--see Outcry for a particularly egregious example. Whereas with WDADU, yeah the band was kind of all over the place, but that kind of keeps you alert when you listen to it. The band doesn't settle into a groove for four minutes and then pull the rug out from under you for no apparent reason. That doesn't mean it's fantastically written or anything, but once I heard the better WDADU songs a few times I just got used to the arrangements. On the other hand, the lesser songs from WDADU, and from all eras of DT really (including songs like AROP and TDEN), will always have sections that make me go "Why is this here?"

I think that must be the root of the disagreement, because I don't agree with that reasoning. But it's prog, so there's no "right" or "wrong" approach to it, I guess it's just what works for the individual. I'd rather a song have a few larger sections, than have dozens of tiny sections that don't give me a feel for what the song is trying to do, which is why I really don't think much of a song like ACOS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 05:50:42 AM
Well, it's all opinion, of course, but the way I see it, if you have 'dozens of tiny sections' that feel very different from each other, the whole song just feels chaotic, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But if you have a few larger sections that feel very different from each other, it doesn't feel simply 'chaotic' to me, it just feels like it's at odds with itself, spending five minutes building in one direction only to spend three minutes moving in a completely different direction, only to jump back to the original direction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 05:50:42 AM
Well, it's all opinion, of course, but the way I see it, if you have 'dozens of tiny sections' that feel very different from each other, the whole song just feels chaotic, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But if you have a few larger sections that feel very different from each other, it doesn't feel simply 'chaotic' to me, it just feels like it's at odds with itself, spending five minutes building in one direction only to spend three minutes moving in a completely different direction, only to jump back to the original direction.

To me a song with lots of little sections is like a modern day fight sequence in a movie where it switches around so quickly you can't get your bearings and tell what's going on, and it's just a mess.
But with longer sections, it's like different scenes in a movie. They can be totally different, but they're all cohesive within themselves, and you can see how they all fit together to form the larger whole. I don't get that sense when the song doesn't settle on anything long enough for me to get any emotional response from it, and develop a musical idea fully before moving on to a new section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 06:30:52 AM
Well, see, to me, when a song doesn't settle on anything long enough for me to get a musical response from it, that tells me that chaos is the whole point.  Like, you've talked about Metropolis before as an example of a song with crazy jarring transitions, but to me, Metropolis is a song about crazy jarring transitions.  The first time I heard that song I thought it was completely batshit insane.  Luckily it was intriguing enough to make me listen again, and by the fourth or fifth listen I was acclimated to the chaos of it, and nowadays I adore every chaotic moment of it.

It's sort of like spinning around in circles.  Sometimes, spinning around in circles can be very fun.  But if your goal is to get somewhere, then spinning around in circles is just a meaningless waste of time. 

So to me, a song with lots of crazy tiny sections is like spinning around in circles for the fun of it, whereas a cohesive song with one large crazy section pasted in the middle of it feels more like trying to get from point A to point B and randomly stopping to spin in circles on the way there. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:33:12 AM
Reading that post makes me dizzier than spinning in circles would have. :lol

In Metropolis it works, because I do feel like chaos is the point (as I feel it is in TDEN, and I think it works perfectly there too), but on WDADU, it just feels ingrained in the songwiting style regardless of whether it fits the song. Unless the whole album is supposed to be chaos, I don't get the feeling it was supposed to sound like the mess that it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 06:42:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 05:58:12 AM
To me a song with lots of little sections is like a modern day fight sequence in a movie where it switches around so quickly you can't get your bearings and tell what's going on, and it's just a mess.
But with longer sections, it's like different scenes in a movie. They can be totally different, but they're all cohesive within themselves, and you can see how they all fit together to form the larger whole. I don't get that sense when the song doesn't settle on anything long enough for me to get any emotional response from it, and develop a musical idea fully before moving on to a new section.

Where this kind of breaks down for me is when the split is, as it often is with DT, vocal-instrumental-vocal. The 'different scenes' thing works (for me; obviously I'm being subjective) if it's all instrumental or all vocal-based, but there's just something incongruous about having an instrumental section that doesn't go with the lyrics and/or the music put around them. That makes it like scenes from different movies, not one movie, to me. So I can handle even the madness of instrumentals like TDOE or YJ, or all the vocal twists of The Killing Hand, because they're always communicating on the same wavelength despite the turns, but I get annoyed with something like the AROP middle section.

Of course, part of my distaste for that AROP section, the TDEN middle, or The Reckoning is that the music in those sections sounds very tossed-off and the riffs aren't compelling, but that's another totally subjective arena not really worth diving into IMO. I think the style can work, but I much prefer its use on, say, Peruvian Skies--the section transitions smoothly into the guitar solo and then has cool riffs from there, and it also works its way back to the vocals without any real difficulty.

But hey, just my opinion. DT certainly can be enjoyed in all sorts of different ways and by people with all sorts of different tastes (and micro-tastes).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:48:11 AM
This always beings me to the question of how Metropolis' instrumental section fits the song any better than any modern DT song. It's just a random, shreddy, chaotic section with a 200bpm carnival solo in the middle. How does that fit the rest of the song and the lyrics? It doesn't. And the transition into the instrumental section isn't exactly smooth either.
Granted, it's an awesome instrumental section, but the point is this isn't something exclusive to modern DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 06:49:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:33:12 AM
Reading that post makes me dizzier than spinning in circles would have. :lol

Admittedly it got away from me a bit.  For whatever it's worth, what I posted was the most sensible of several attempts.   :lol 

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:33:12 AM
In Metropolis it works, because I do feel like chaos is the point (as I feel it is in TDEN, and I think it works perfectly there too), but on WDADU, it just feels ingrained in the songwiting style regardless of whether it fits the song. Unless the whole album is supposed to be chaos, I don't get the feeling it was supposed to sound like the mess that it is.

Well, of course in the end it's all going to come down to opinions.  I didn't really mean to be defending WDADU, only addressing the issue of 'lots of tiny sections' vs. 'a few larger sections'. 

When it comes to WDADU specifically... I would say that while some songs on SC and BC&SL feel like they're going somewhere and getting lost along the way, some songs on WDADU feel like they have no idea where they're going in the first place. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:48:11 AM
This always beings me to the question of how Metropolis' instrumental section fits the song any better than any modern DT song. It's just a random, shreddy, chaotic section with a 200bpm carnival solo in the middle. How does that fit the rest of the song and the lyrics? It doesn't. And the transition into the instrumental section isn't exactly smooth either.
Granted, it's an awesome instrumental section, but the point is this isn't something exclusive to modern DT.

Yeah, this gets at what I was saying in the second paragraph of my last post. And for the record, I agree with this viewpoint. But there's just some spark behind those I&W sections that isn't always there with the modern stuff. It doesn't sound tossed-off. It does sound oddly placed, but it sounds like the band pored over it for days, deciding every note. Whereas the modern stuff sometimes reflects the whole "We're recording and writing at the same time" thing--there isn't a gestation period for quality control that allows those sections to become interesting journeys of their own a lot of the time.

There's also something about I&W's production that seems to unify the songs better than any album since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 07:01:21 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 06:48:11 AM
This always beings me to the question of how Metropolis' instrumental section fits the song any better than any modern DT song. It's just a random, shreddy, chaotic section with a 200bpm carnival solo in the middle. How does that fit the rest of the song and the lyrics? It doesn't. And the transition into the instrumental section isn't exactly smooth either.
Granted, it's an awesome instrumental section, but the point is this isn't something exclusive to modern DT.

Yeah, this gets at what I was saying in the second paragraph of my last post. And for the record, I agree with this viewpoint. But there's just some spark behind those I&W sections that isn't always there with the modern stuff. It doesn't sound tossed-off. It does sound oddly placed, but it sounds like the band pored over it for days, deciding every note. Whereas the modern stuff sometimes reflects the whole "We're recording and writing at the same time" thing--there isn't a gestation period for quality control that allows those sections to become interesting journeys of their own a lot of the time.

I totally get that, and those IaW instrumental sections are godly.
I've just never liked the specific criticism of modern DT having jarring transitions, when it's always been a part of DT's songwriting, even in many of their most universally loved songs, and I have no problem with them doing it. If people think it's just a matter of quality/preference, then I'm fine with that opinion. But I generally don't have a problem with the way DT do transitions on more recent albums, and I think some of them get a bad wrap when they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 30, 2012, 07:33:34 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 03:28:03 AM
MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums

And some of the latter live albums/DVDs suffered as a result.  Score, in particular, is an extremely weak anniversary set list, and this is because he got too caught up in trying to not repeat songs instead of picking the songs that best represented the band (which is what an anniversary show should be for).  I mean, I Walk Beside You, The Answer Lies Within, Vacant and Innocence Faded make the 20th anniversary set list, but Take the Time, Learning to Live, The Glass Prison and Voices do not?  Okay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 08:07:32 AM
Here's another possibly controversial opinion of mine: JR's use of the continuum is awesome and he should use it more. The continuum solo in ANTR might be my favorite "traditional" JR solo--if it's not, it's close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 08:09:10 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 30, 2012, 07:33:34 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 03:28:03 AM
MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums

And some of the latter live albums/DVDs suffered as a result.  Score, in particular, is an extremely weak anniversary set list, and this is because he got too caught up in trying to not repeat songs instead of picking the songs that best represented the band (which is what an anniversary show should be for).  I mean, I Walk Beside You, The Answer Lies Within, Vacant and Innocence Faded make the 20th anniversary set list, but Take the Time, Learning to Live, The Glass Prison and Voices do not?  Okay.

In three years they will most likely make the 30th anniversary DVD, assuming there will be one!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 30, 2012, 08:19:11 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 08:09:10 AM
In three years they will most likely make the 30th anniversary DVD, assuming there will be one!  :tup
Hopefully we will finally get a version of LTL where James nails the F#5 then!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 30, 2012, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 08:07:32 AM
Here's another possibly controversial opinion of mine: JR's use of the continuum is awesome and he should use it more. The continuum solo in ANTR might be my favorite "traditional" JR solo--if it's not, it's close.

I completely agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 30, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
Quote from: ? on December 30, 2012, 08:19:11 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 08:09:10 AM
In three years they will most likely make the 30th anniversary DVD, assuming there will be one!  :tup
Hopefully we will finally get a version of LTL where James nails the F#5 then!
Oh we have plenty of those, just nothing on the official albums :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 10:05:10 AM
This isn't really a controversial opinion, but rather an unusual thing about me as a Dream Theater fan. I own 5 studio albums by Dream Theater: Images and Words, Awake, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, and a Dramatic Turn of Events.

What's controversial about that? Where's Scenes, or Falling Into Infinity? Why don't I have all of them yet? I'm not really sure why, I have just discovered a lot of music in the last year and a half, and I've been trying to build a balanced library, so Dream Theater has taken a slight backseat when it comes to buying new albums.

I'm sorry if I'm not forming my statements very well, I'm on some medicine recovering from getting my wisdom teeth out and it's making me really tired.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 10:05:10 AM
This isn't really a controversial opinion, but rather an unusual thing about me as a Dream Theater fan. I own 5 studio albums by Dream Theater: Images and Words, Awake, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, and a Dramatic Turn of Events.

You don't have SFAM? At the very least you can't call yourself a DT fan until you have SFAM!

Whatever you're in the middle of doing, drop it and go out and buy it immediately. I don't care if you're in the middle of working, or about to go to sleep, or taking a dump, or hooked up to life support, just get up right now, hop into your car (or if you don't drive, run like hell), and find a copy of SFAM. Don't even bother coming back home tonight unless you're holding a copy of SFAM.
Then crank it, and report back in about 75 minutes or so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
I edited my post to explain why I probably can't get it immediately. I do really want to get it soon though. I'll go to my record store sometime next week probably and order it in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 30, 2012, 10:39:48 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
You don't have SFAM? At the very least you can't call yourself a DT fan until you have SFAM!

Whatever you're in the middle of doing, drop it and go out and buy it immediately. I don't care if you're in the middle of working, or about to go to sleep, or taking a dump, or hooked up to life support, just get up right now, hop into your car (or if you don't drive, run like hell), and find a copy of SFAM. Don't even coming back home tonight unless you're holding a copy of SFAM.
Then crank it, and report back in about 75 minutes or so.

You know, I was actually thinking about buying a second copy of it, just to have a sealed one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 10:43:26 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 30, 2012, 10:39:48 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
You don't have SFAM? At the very least you can't call yourself a DT fan until you have SFAM!

Whatever you're in the middle of doing, drop it and go out and buy it immediately. I don't care if you're in the middle of working, or about to go to sleep, or taking a dump, or hooked up to life support, just get up right now, hop into your car (or if you don't drive, run like hell), and find a copy of SFAM. Don't even coming back home tonight unless you're holding a copy of SFAM.
Then crank it, and report back in about 75 minutes or so.

You know, I was actually thinking about buying a second copy of it, just to have a sealed one.

Couldn't hurt!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 30, 2012, 10:53:37 AM
I wish I kept a sealed version of the live SFAM album when I got it on 9/11.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 11:23:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 10:05:10 AM
This isn't really a controversial opinion, but rather an unusual thing about me as a Dream Theater fan. I own 5 studio albums by Dream Theater: Images and Words, Awake, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, and a Dramatic Turn of Events.

You don't have SFAM? At the very least you can't call yourself a DT fan until you have SFAM!

Whatever you're in the middle of doing, drop it and go out and buy it immediately. I don't care if you're in the middle of working, or about to go to sleep, or taking a dump, or hooked up to life support, just get up right now, hop into your car (or if you don't drive, run like hell), and find a copy of SFAM. Don't even bother coming back home tonight unless you're holding a copy of SFAM.
Then crank it, and report back in about 75 minutes or so.

Why should he bother buying SFAM? He already has the three best DT albums and Six Degrees :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 12:16:28 PM
I'll pick up Scenes as soon as I can. I've listened to it, and as far as I can tell, it's basically a defining album for the "Dream Theater sound".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 12:16:28 PM
I'll pick up Scenes as soon as I can. I've listened to it, and as far as I can tell, it's basically a defining album for the "Dream Theater sound".

Indeed, all jokes aside. Not as much as Images And Words, but it's a crime for a DT fan not to own it! It's basically the second youth of the band, the basin that fueled live shows for the next decade in one way or another, the term of comparison for any concept album in the prog-metal scene. You better buy it, it's a beacon of progressive music! :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 30, 2012, 12:52:26 PM
Well, when you put it that way... :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 30, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
I think Images and Words introduced a new, revolutionary sound and dynamic to Progressive Metal. It has established what Prog Metal would be all through the 90's, and largely beyond. But what Images and Words has invented, I would say Scenes From A Memory has perfected. Personally, I'm the type of person who prefers the perfected and refined, rather than just something new and unique. Of course, Images and Words is awesome enough to follow very closely behind, but still, SFAM is #1 in my book.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 30, 2012, 01:49:57 PM
For me at the time I was missing the heavy progressive music.  Not many bands were heading that way so when I heard the heaviness while still being prog, I had to get it.  Everything was so tinny in the late 80's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Marion Crane on December 30, 2012, 02:28:10 PM
Octavarium is easily my least favorite of the "epics"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on December 30, 2012, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 06:30:52 AM
Well, see, to me, when a song doesn't settle on anything long enough for me to get a musical response from it, that tells me that chaos is the whole point.  Like, you've talked about Metropolis before as an example of a song with crazy jarring transitions, but to me, Metropolis is a song about crazy jarring transitions.  The first time I heard that song I thought it was completely batshit insane.  Luckily it was intriguing enough to make me listen again, and by the fourth or fifth listen I was acclimated to the chaos of it, and nowadays I adore every chaotic moment of it.

It's sort of like spinning around in circles.  Sometimes, spinning around in circles can be very fun.  But if your goal is to get somewhere, then spinning around in circles is just a meaningless waste of time. 

So to me, a song with lots of crazy tiny sections is like spinning around in circles for the fun of it, whereas a cohesive song with one large crazy section pasted in the middle of it feels more like trying to get from point A to point B and randomly stopping to spin in circles on the way there. 

That's some very good analogies. A good piece, that goes somewhere, but also has a crazy instrumental section, would be more like getting from point A to point B, and then randomly spinning in circles while still moving in a straight line. Difficult to do, but if you can do it, you get fun + still getting to point B. For example, Point A is the end of Home, Point B is the beginning of One Last Time. The entire path inbetween is The Dance of Eternity; spinning in circles the whole way through, but still moving forward. It's at least somewhat cohesive and gets somewhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 30, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
I think John Myung talks too fuckin much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 30, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
I think John Myung talks too fuckin much.

You can't be serious  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 30, 2012, 04:22:42 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on December 30, 2012, 03:09:11 PM
That's some very good analogies.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.

Really? The entire album makes me cringe, from the vocals, to the production, to the songwriting.

I AM THE KILLING HAAAAAAAAAAANNDD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 31, 2012, 12:13:21 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 30, 2012, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 30, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
I think John Myung talks too fuckin much.

You can't be serious  :lol
;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on December 31, 2012, 01:42:03 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.

I don't think WDADU is better than SC, but I do think it's better than Black Clouds. WDADU is a pretty good album honestly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on December 31, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
Repentance is by far the best song on Systematic Chaos.

The Answer Lies Within is only worse than Octavarium, Sacrificed Sons, and The Root of All Evil, on Octavarium
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 02:02:13 AM
I never liked These Walls. I have been told I need to amend that, and that is what I will try to do this morning.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 31, 2012, 02:05:14 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 30, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
I think John Myung talks too fuckin much.
Yeah, he always does all the interviews and never lets anyone else say anything, he should learn to shut up sometimes!
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > FII, 6DOIT, TOT, 8V, SC & BCSL
Fixed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.

Really? The entire album makes me cringe, from the vocals, to the production, to the songwriting.

I AM THE KILLING HAAAAAAAAAAANNDD

Yeah while:
"Apocalyptic mind debris
Until we meet again
Uhh!"

"Day after day and night after night..."

"Sucking on his pipe"

And many more, are not cringeworthy at all.

Honestly, i think WDADU is better sounding than the brickwalling and full of bass drum shitty sound of SC.
And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.

Come at me bros.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 03:38:50 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM

And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.

Come at me bros.

I allow everything else you said beside this. Now, you can't be serioud!  :lol

I'm uploading a bootleg for you right now. It's a recollection of WDADU songs performed by James in his prime (1992-1994), and as such is a sort of a vocally (but of course not instrumentally) better version of WDADRU. It's called When Dream And James Unite. If you don't already have it.

Actually no, I will make a compilation myself. I have a wider choice than those who made the CD originally had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:46:30 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.

Really? The entire album makes me cringe, from the vocals, to the production, to the songwriting.

I AM THE KILLING HAAAAAAAAAAANNDD

Yeah while:
"Apocalyptic mind debris
Until we meet again
Uhh!"

"Day after day and night after night..."

"Sucking on his pipe"

And many more, are not cringeworthy at all.

Honestly, i think WDADU is better sounding than the brickwalling and full of bass drum shitty sound of SC.
And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.

Come at me bros.



I never said anything about SC or BCASL, but the complete awfulness of WDADU far exceeds any problems those two albums have, by miles. Charlie's vocals are laughable throughout the entire album, the production is worse than demo quality, and the songwriting is mostly abysmal.


Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 02:05:14 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > FII, 6DOIT, TOT, 8V, SC & BCSL
Fixed.

:rollin Let's not get stupid here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 31, 2012, 03:50:44 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM
And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.
I think James sounds better on A Fortune in Lies, The Killing Hand and Afterlife, but I agree on the rest. I have listened to the versions on WDADRU and some bootlegs, but Charlie's voice simply suits those songs better IMO.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:46:30 AM
Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 02:05:14 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > FII, 6DOIT, TOT, 8V, SC & BCSL
Fixed.

:rollin Let's not get stupid here.
Opinions are opinions :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 03:50:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:46:30 AM
Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 02:05:14 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > FII, 6DOIT, TOT, 8V, SC & BCSL
Fixed.

:rollin Let's not get stupid here.
Opinions are opinions :biggrin:

:lol Hey, if anyone here is familiar with unconventional opinions it's me, but WDADU better than SDOIT? That's just insane, dude. Their worst album vs their best album (respectively). I wouldn't even put it in the ballpark of any of the rest either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on December 31, 2012, 03:55:16 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 03:38:50 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM

And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.

Come at me bros.

I allow everything else you said beside this. Now, you can't be serioud!  :lol

I'm uploading a bootleg for you right now. It's a recollection of WDADU songs performed by James in his prime (1992-1994), and as such is a sort of a vocally (but of course not instrumentally) better version of WDADRU. It's called When Dream And James Unite. If you don't already have it.

Actually no, I will make a compilation myself. I have a wider choice than those who made the CD originally had.
PLS :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 31, 2012, 03:59:47 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:53:25 AM
:lol Hey, if anyone here is familiar with unconventional opinions it's me, but WDADU better than SDOIT? That's just insane, dude. Their worst album vs their best album (respectively). I wouldn't even put it in the ballpark of any of the rest either.
Well, Six Degrees is about as great as WD&DU, but the title-"track" could've been slightly trimmed down. The only weak point of WD&DU is Light Fuse... and the album has a more listener-friendly length, so I get the urge to listen to it in full more often than with 6D. But both albums are great, and Six Degrees obviously has some of the best DT songs ever (Blind Faith, The Great Debate, The Glass Prison).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 31, 2012, 04:01:15 AM
WDADU is better than Octavarium, SC, and Black Clouds. It's not even a contest in the case of the first two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 04:17:40 AM
Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 03:59:47 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 03:53:25 AM
:lol Hey, if anyone here is familiar with unconventional opinions it's me, but WDADU better than SDOIT? That's just insane, dude. Their worst album vs their best album (respectively). I wouldn't even put it in the ballpark of any of the rest either.
Well, Six Degrees is about as great as WD&DU, but the title-"track" could've been slightly trimmed down. The only weak point of WD&DU is Light Fuse... and the album has a more listener-friendly length, so I get the urge to listen to it in full more often than with 6D. But both albums are great, and Six Degrees obviously has some of the best DT songs ever (Blind Faith, The Great Debate, The Glass Prison).

Light Fuse and Get Away, Status Seeker, TOWHTSTS and OAMOT are DT's absolute worst songs imo. Half of the album is terrible, and the other half is still only "ok" at best.
Meanwhile, SDOIT is almost perfect from start to finish, and I'd rank the title track and TGP tied as DT's #1 songs, with the rest being top 10 worthy (except for TGD, which I'd rank a little lower).

Sorry, I find it ridiculous to even mention the two albums in the same sentence, even in a controversial opinion thread. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 04:50:42 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 03:38:50 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 03:21:26 AM

And, i like CD better on the WDADU songs than JLB.

Come at me bros.

I allow everything else you said beside this. Now, you can't be serioud!  :lol

I'm uploading a bootleg for you right now. It's a recollection of WDADU songs performed by James in his prime (1992-1994), and as such is a sort of a vocally (but of course not instrumentally) better version of WDADRU. It's called When Dream And James Unite. If you don't already have it.

Actually no, I will make a compilation myself. I have a wider choice than those who made the CD originally had.

You're a great guy  :hefdaddy

I know some songs are better with JLB from a technical standpoint, but i think (with the exception of the Killing Hand which is better by James 92-93 era) but i think that Charlie is good on other songs. Especially Status Seeker, this might be his best DT performance imo.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 05:13:20 AM
Thanks! And stick around, the mixtape will be available within one hour, and I can tell you that you are in for a lot of pleasant surprises!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on December 31, 2012, 05:42:20 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 05:13:20 AM
Thanks! And stick around, the mixtape will be available within one hour, and I can tell you that you are in for a lot of pleasant surprises!  :tup
Can you send it to me, too? ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 05:57:16 AM
I can kind of understand not liking James more than Charlie on some of those WDADU songs. He's got that really staccato delivery that actually almost kind of works on some of the really wordy bits, or at least it works as well as those lines can work. Whereas James' more naturally resonant voice really shows how awkwardly constructed some of those lines are--diction's never really been among his strengths, after all. That's not really the way I personally look at things, but I can get how someone could get to that point. I actually do prefer WDADU's vocals to those on WDADRU in general, just because it was clearly an off night for James. Those 92-94 performances are the definitive performances of the songs for me, though. AFIL and TKH on LATM (and other performances of the era) just slay, and I forget which bootleg had James put an F# in Afterlife, but that was awesome too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:04:51 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 05:57:16 AM
I can kind of understand not liking James more than Charlie on some of those WDADU songs. He's got that really staccato delivery that actually almost kind of works on some of the really wordy bits, or at least it works as well as those lines can work. Whereas James' more naturally resonant voice really shows how awkwardly constructed some of those lines are--diction's never really been among his strengths, after all. That's not really the way I personally look at things, but I can get how someone could get to that point. I actually do prefer WDADU's vocals to those on WDADRU in general, just because it was clearly an off night for James. Those 92-94 performances are the definitive performances of the songs for me, though. AFIL and TKH on LATM (and other performances of the era) just slay, and I forget which bootleg had James put an F# in Afterlife, but that was awesome too.

He sings the high F# at the end of the 1993-11-15 bootleg I have. Those IaW era performances of WDADU were really the best renditions by far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

Only A Matter Of James (https://sdrv.ms/ZOROp8)
Quote
A Fortune In Lies - 1992.06.08 - NYC
Status Seeker - 1993.07.22 - NYC
To Live Forever - 1993.06.05 - San Fran (the vamp is highly recommended)
The Killing Hand - 1992.10.04 - Deer Park
Light Fuse And Get Away - 1993.01.02 - Deer Park
Afterlife - 1993.11.07 - Stuttgart
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun - 1994.10.29 - NYC
Only A Matter Of Time - 1992.09.27 - NYC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

That level of dedication is admirable! The bootleg I have only has one F#. :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 06:16:09 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

Only A Matter Of James (https://sdrv.ms/ZOROp8)
Quote
A Fortune In Lies - 1992.06.08 - NYC
Status Seeker - 1993.07.22 - NYC
To Live Forever - 1993.06.05 - San Fran (the vamp is highly recommended)
The Killing Hand - 1992.10.04 - Deer Park
Light Fuse And Get Away - 1993.01.02 - Deer Park
Afterlife - 1993.11.07 - Stuttgart
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun - 1994.10.29 - NYC
Only A Matter Of Time - 1992.09.27 - NYC

Thanks!!!I'm downloading right now!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:19:45 AM
And what if I told you that the first, lesser known F# is an exact replica of the Learning To Live one?  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 06:43:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

That level of dedication is admirable! The bootleg I have only has one F#. :(

When all else fails, hit the F#!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 31, 2012, 06:50:07 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 04:17:40 AM
Sorry, I find it ridiculous to even mention the two albums in the same sentence, even in a controversial opinion thread. :lol
I know the feeling, I would react the same way if someone said they prefer SC to Awake! :lol  I just happen to love WD&DU so much that I think it's just as great as Six Degrees, or even a bit better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:50:16 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 06:43:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

That level of dedication is admirable! The bootleg I have only has one F#. :(

When all else fails, hit the F#!

As it's the 1st Jan here, I pledge to make this my new year's resolution. I think this will make it an especially special year indeed.


Quote from: ? on December 31, 2012, 06:50:07 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 04:17:40 AM
Sorry, I find it ridiculous to even mention the two albums in the same sentence, even in a controversial opinion thread. :lol
I know the feeling, I would react the same way if someone said they prefer SC to Awake! :lol  I just happen to love WD&DU so much that I think it's just as great as Six Degrees, or even a bit better.

I actually do prefer SC to Awake, and I would very much expect that reaction. :lol
But I still think the comparison of WDADU to SDOIT is more crazy. I can at least understand why people like Awake even though I'm not a fan of it (and obviously I can see why people would like SC). I honestly can't understand how people even take WDADU seriously, let alone compare it to what I consider DT's peak. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 07:10:30 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:50:16 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 06:43:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 31, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
He hits two separate F#s in the Afterlife I included in the compilation!

That level of dedication is admirable! The bootleg I have only has one F#. :(

When all else fails, hit the F#!

As it's the 1st Jan here, I pledge to make this my new year's resolution. I think this will make it an especially special year indeed.

As I'm spending my holidays in Cuba, I'm just making sure I don't rupture my vocal chords.  ;)

Seriously though, I love how James can just randomly pull those F#5s out. My favorite is the version of Another Day in Korea in '99, where he's having an absolutely abysmal night, totally cracking on everything above like a B4...and then he randomly busts out this huge F# at the end of the song. What a guy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on December 31, 2012, 07:18:56 AM
I feel like MM's kit is excessive. Dont know if he uses it all. Saw him twice in this ADTOE tour and it seemed he only played half of it. I could be wrong though. Also think that the octobans look a bit ridiculous on the top (imo).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 31, 2012, 09:56:21 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 30, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
WDADU > SC & BCSL

Why? Because there is nothing on WDADU that makes me roll my eyes or cringe.

 :tup

It doesn't matter to me, whether the transitions on WDADU are less smoother than on later albums. It is an album from a band, which is full of enthusiasm and talent, but not really experience. What do you expect? It couldn't be Images and Words yet, but it is When Dream and Day Unite and it is a fun album to listen every then and now.

That being said, I like SC very much. Probably my 6th favourite studio album.

Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on December 31, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
Repentance is by far the best song on Systematic Chaos.

After ITPOE (I consider it as a one song) and Prophets of War.





Talk about controversial? Ha!

Quote from: nikatapi on December 31, 2012, 04:50:42 AM
I know some songs are better with JLB from a technical standpoint, but i think (with the exception of the Killing Hand which is better by James 92-93 era) but i think that Charlie is good on other songs. Especially Status Seeker, this might be his best DT performance imo.

YOU ARE... correct. I should look for live versions of WDADU songs from 90s. The Killing Hand from LATM would be a top 3 song, and I love James's vocals in AFIL, from the same album.

But when it comes to WDARU, I prefer Charlie (expect those two). James's voice just doesn't suit Light Fuse and Get Away as well as Charlie's.

And yes, I love the vocals in Status Seeker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on December 31, 2012, 10:39:41 AM
I don't think it's a coincidence that the two WDADU songs where Charlie sounds solid are Status Seeker and Afterlife, which are the only two he had a hand in writing. If you listen to his solo stuff it's actually pretty decently executed vocally too. He's not a great singer by any stretch, but DT could've framed his voice a lot better than they did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 31, 2012, 11:36:34 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 31, 2012, 04:01:15 AM
WDADU is better than Octavarium, SC, and Black Clouds. It's not even a contest in the case of the first two.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on December 31, 2012, 12:26:25 PM
I also think that Awake is one of their most overrated albums. I can't see why many put that album on their top 3 or even the number 1 spot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
I prefer the Mullmuzzler vocals over Scenes'. Especially if he sung him now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheSilentHam on December 31, 2012, 05:07:27 PM
Apparently controversial:  I enjoy all DT albums equally enough that I can't rank them.  I still listen to them all about equally (except Octavarium because it skips in my car cd player).  I don't skip any tracks, and I don't get bored while listening. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: TheSilentHam on December 31, 2012, 05:07:27 PM
Apparently controversial:  I enjoy all DT albums equally enough that I can't rank them.  I still listen to them all about equally (except Octavarium because it skips in my car cd player).  I don't skip any tracks, and I don't get bored while listening.

I play them all as well
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on December 31, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
I prefer the Mullmuzzler vocals over Scenes'.

I think Mullmuzzler 2 has some of James' best performances. But I also think his vocals on SFAM are fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 31, 2012, 06:06:19 PM
1. Images And Words
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Awake
4. Scenes from a Memory
5. Train Of Thought
6. Octavarium
7. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
8. When Dream And Day Unite
9. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

That's where I'd put WDADU. I hardly ever listen to it, and some songs from the bottom three have gotten way more plays than the album or songs themselves, but as I said before, none of the songs on WDADU are bad or make me want to facepalm. And Never Enough isn't so bad, but I'll still only listen to it when I listen to the whole album, so that's why 8VM is so high.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2012, 07:22:21 PM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 31, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 31, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
I prefer the Mullmuzzler vocals over Scenes'.

I think Mullmuzzler 2 has some of James' best performances. But I also think his vocals on SFAM are fantastic.

I also prefer that music style especially the keys, it doesnt sound like metal DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 01, 2013, 12:40:31 AM
I'd like to thank the awesomeness that is mr. Wasteland, the compilation he made is f@cking great. Thanks! (I still like CD in WDADU though  :P )
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 01, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
You're welcome nika  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dellers on January 01, 2013, 04:36:44 AM
Awake is somewhat boring.
New Millennium is a top 2 song from FII.
You Not Me isn't particularly bad.
Burning My Soul is one of the worst songs ever made - regardless of artist/band.
The Glass Prison is the only bad song on SDOIT. The song is like everything from Metallica for me - extremely boring after a minute or two (the intro is cool). It's tiring as well with its stressy tempo and what not.
The best song on Systematic Chaos is Prophets Of War.
The least good song on BC&SL is The Count Of Tuscany.
Bridges In The Sky is my favorite DT song (well, that one may not be very controversial). I really wish the mix sounded a little heavier though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 01, 2013, 06:28:07 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 31, 2012, 05:52:21 PM
I think Mullmuzzler 2 has some of James' best performances. But I also think his vocals on SFAM are fantastic.
:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 01, 2013, 10:54:35 AM
Dellers I agree...followed closely by ITPOEpt 1 and Repentance
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:17:25 AM
This is definitely a controversial opinion, though I'm not sure if it is on this particular forum or not, but I think that DT's covers of Diary of a Madman, and most of Number of the Beast album, are superior to the originals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think DT's cover of Stargazer is better than the original, and one of James' best performances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think DT's cover of Stargazer is better than the original, and one of James' best performances.

Agreed. But the two versions are very different. When I listen to DT's version, it doesn't sound like an old song. If I'd never heard the original, and didn't know it was a cover, I would've guessed that it was written during the BCSL era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 01, 2013, 11:58:55 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think DT's cover of Stargazer is better than the original, and one of James' best performances.

Agreed. But the two versions are very different. When I listen to DT's version, it doesn't sound like an old song. If I'd never heard the original, and didn't know it was a cover, I would've guessed that it was written during the BCSL era.
... the parts in bold confuse the hell outta me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 01, 2013, 12:11:45 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:17:25 AM
This is definitely a controversial opinion, though I'm not sure if it is on this particular forum or not, but I think that DT's covers of Diary of a Madman, and most of Number of the Beast album, are superior to the originals.

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think DT's cover of Stargazer is better than the original, and one of James' best performances.

You guys are horrible human beings!!!!

Ok, I've calmed down.  I think the originals are sacred and will never be topped (except Number of the Beast...I like it but was never a *huge* Maiden fan)

Diary and Stargazer are classics and no one will ever top them!!!!!   Ok, I've calmed down again.  Both covers are indeed near the original greatness at the very least. 

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 01, 2013, 11:58:55 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
I think DT's cover of Stargazer is better than the original, and one of James' best performances.

Agreed. But the two versions are very different. When I listen to DT's version, it doesn't sound like an old song. If I'd never heard the original, and didn't know it was a cover, I would've guessed that it was written during the BCSL era.
... the parts in bold confuse the hell outta me.

I think he means that it sounds really fresh, as if it could have been written only a few years ago. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 01, 2013, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on January 01, 2013, 12:11:45 PM
I think he means that it sounds really fresh, as if it could have been written only a few years ago.
Oh I didn't mean it like that :D I meant, "damn guys how come that's your opinion?" I do understand tastes are different, these were just too weird for me to comprehend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on January 01, 2013, 12:11:45 PM
You guys are horrible human beings!!!!

You know, there must have been a dozen times I wanted to say this to someone in this thread. Then I remember the actual thread title and was forced to suck it up.

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 01, 2013, 12:32:12 PM
Oh I didn't mean it like that :D I meant, "damn guys how come that's your opinion?" I do understand tastes are different, these were just too weird for me to comprehend.

That wasn't even supposed to be the controversial part...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on January 01, 2013, 12:44:29 PM
Yeah, the Stargazer cover does sound fresh--almost strikingly so. It actually took me several listens before I could get into it, because I was so struck by how different the song was from the original--and also how DT sounded different than normal, especially James. But then once I kind of got past how different it was I realized how awesome it was.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on January 01, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: goo-goo on December 31, 2012, 07:18:56 AM
I feel like MM's kit is excessive. Dont know if he uses it all. Saw him twice in this ADTOE tour and it seemed he only played half of it. I could be wrong though. Also think that the octobans look a bit ridiculous on the top (imo).

I don't know if he uses it all either but I never liked the octobans sitting up there, everything looks too over the top for me, kinda like jordans keytar.

From a pure aesthetic standpoint I think MP had better looking kits. His SDOIT kit was just awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 01:00:26 PM
The only thing I don't like about MM's kit is that you can barely see him. He looks like he's sitting in a little booth, isolated from everyone else. It probably feels different on the actual stage, but from the audience standpoint, he feels really disconnected. That frame almost gives him an "on screen" kind of feel, like he's not really there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 01, 2013, 05:52:24 PM
Quote from: Dellers on January 01, 2013, 04:36:44 AM
Awake is somewhat boring.
New Millennium is a top 2 song from FII.
You Not Me isn't particularly bad.
The Glass Prison is the only bad song on SDOIT. The song is like everything from Metallica for me - extremely boring after a minute or two (the intro is cool). It's tiring as well with its stressy tempo and what not.

Quoted what I agree with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 01, 2013, 10:03:48 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2013, 11:17:25 AM
This is definitely a controversial opinion, though I'm not sure if it is on this particular forum or not, but I think that DT's covers of Diary of a Madman, and most of Number of the Beast album, are superior to the originals.

The TNOTB covers are very good, although I don't think their cover of Diary was quite as good as the original. The outro is much more powerful and layered in the original, especially with the real strings and choir.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 02, 2013, 03:06:56 AM
I would choose Eve over any other Kevin Moore lyrics'd song which is not called Surrounded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on January 02, 2013, 06:13:36 AM
I don't think Awake is all that good. Sure it has awesome moments on it, but it's probably in my bottom 2/3 albums by Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 02, 2013, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
I came to post that :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:56:07 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 02, 2013, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
I came to post that :biggrin:

:biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on January 02, 2013, 07:05:26 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 02, 2013, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
I came to post that :biggrin:

Aaaaand thirded, in case of being favourite!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on January 02, 2013, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: Ruba on January 02, 2013, 07:05:26 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 02, 2013, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
I came to post that :biggrin:

Aaaaand thirded, in case of being favourite!
It's probably my favorite album ever ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on January 02, 2013, 07:12:24 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on January 02, 2013, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: Ruba on January 02, 2013, 07:05:26 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 02, 2013, 06:55:08 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 02, 2013, 06:53:25 AM
So many people have negative opinions of Awake, that I'm starting to think it's controversial that I rank Awake as my #1 DT album.
I came to post that :biggrin:

Aaaaand thirded, in case of being favourite!
It's probably my favorite album ever ;)

People who are Awake arise!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 02, 2013, 07:14:38 AM
I never liked Awake until long, long after it was released.  In fact, I didn't really revisit Awake until Dream Theater started making mediocre albums around the time that Train of Thought came out.  I thought Train of Thought was OK, but a bit one-dimensional.  I had hoped they would move back in more of a Six Degrees direction and instead we got Octavarium, an album with about 3 good tracks on it and the rest being basically crap.  Dream Theater trying to be Muse.  ugh.  Then it got worse with Systematic Chaos.   It was around that time that I went back and started listening more to Awake, mostly out of a sense of desperation for some GOOD Dream Theater music.  And it actually clicked for me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 02, 2013, 07:20:31 AM
I didn't like Awake until my second year of DT fandom. It's not the easiest album to get into, definitly. It's more of a grower, rather than a striker like Images.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 02, 2013, 07:37:46 AM
Awake is the best album.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on January 02, 2013, 08:09:38 AM
I've been listening to it for as long as I've loved DT, so about 8 years, and it has just never clicked with me. Some of the songs are great, but very few of them have any emotional draw for me and that tends to be what I look for in music the most. Space Dye Vest is one of my favourite songs of theirs and I often go through phases of listening to it really deeply for a day or two, but on the whole it all just feels very medicore and uninspired :P

I thought it was almost unanimously thought of as one of the best DT albums, so I'm surprised to see people say they've seen it around a lot that Awake isn't too great. Maybe someday my mind will change, that definitely happened with 6DOIT after six years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 02, 2013, 08:17:48 AM
I belong to the club of Awake fans - my favorite DT album too! :tup
Quote from: wasteland on January 02, 2013, 03:06:56 AM
I would choose Eve over any other Kevin Moore lyrics'd song which is not called Surrounded.
Eve is better than Surrounded, and there are a couple of better KM-penned songs than those 2, so I disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 03, 2013, 02:04:29 PM
I absolutely hate the demo and live version of Take Away My Pain but love the album version. 

The demo just sounds sort of generic.  The album version, despite MP's vocal hatred, sounds like an otherworldly and positive look at a painful situation.  It really captures the sorrow yet glimmer of hope of losing a loved one.  Since the lyrics have moments where they finally come to grips that the end is near and they will have to deal with it it remains a positive and melancholic song. 

MP says it is a cheesy ride through Disneyworld but I think it is a hopeful ride through a terribly tragic situation. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on January 03, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on January 02, 2013, 07:37:46 AM
Awake is the best album.  :hat

I'm with this guy. Awake is my favorite album of all time. I'm scared to know how much I've listened to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 03, 2013, 02:29:05 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 03, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on January 02, 2013, 07:37:46 AM
Awake is the best album.  :hat

I'm with this guy. Awake is my favorite album of all time. I'm scared to know how much I've listened to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 02:44:50 PM
It's my second-borderline-third favourite album. I hold with those who favor Images, but I think I know enough of me to say that as an album Awake is also great, and would suffice. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 03, 2013, 03:57:23 PM
It's one song off the album.
And I love it AND YOU CAN TELL YOUR STEPFATHER I SAID SO!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 04:01:02 PM
Why is the camera constantly flying into some trucks  :rollin

Also, they cut the best part of the song, damn.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 03, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 04:01:02 PM
Why is the camera constantly flying into some trucks  :rollin

Also, they cut the best part of the song, damn.
Because JP is angry. So angry he needs to wear shades so you do not see the anger in his eyes. Hey, they're better than JLB's :facepalm:

Yeah that kind of sucks - that part "justifies" the song. I wish I could express myself better :lol

Would like to hear that demo of Kevin singing it MP talked about if it exists still somewhere. I know it doesn't because the world hates me. :mora:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 03, 2013, 04:10:13 PM
Milena, you know better than me that MP wastes nothing. The demos is there, in his vault, in our wishes...  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on January 03, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:

it's almost the worst song on the album. Like that means anything; Awake is still a top 10 album ever for me and the last very good one they did.

this thread was for controversial opinions right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 03, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
I always wondered if this is controversial or not: all of DT's earlier album covers (up until SFAM, which is great) are cheesy and/or downright ugly. Those that come after SFAM are nothing to write home about either, which is a shame, considering how many great album covers the prog genre produced over the decades.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Lie is a great song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.

Not sure if serious.

Quote from: Elite on January 03, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:

it's almost the worst song on the album. Like that means anything; Awake is still a top 10 album ever for me and the last very good one they did.

this thread was for controversial opinions right?

There's two problems with Awake:
Lie
SDV

Great moments are definitely Erotomania and 6:00. And there's a cowbell moment in CIAW. More cowbell please. Other than that, it's an average album at best with JLB just screaming most of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toro on January 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.

Not sure if serious.

Completely serious. But I guess people with the "EPIC LONG SONGS AND TIME SIGNATURES CHANGES" or "Metal" mentality are always against the relative simplicity, and the metal/not so metal approach of Awake.

Awake is most definetly their hardest album to get into, but once you do. You get to love it. Awake and I&W were the first DT albums I got and I hated Awake at first, i felt like Scarred was akward and SDV was bad. But now, Awake is almost the only DT album I listen religously and Scarred is a top 3 song for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2013, 10:32:10 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Completely serious. But I guess people with the "EPIC LONG SONGS AND TIME SIGNATURES CHANGES" or "Metal" mentality are always against the relative simplicity, and the metal/not so metal approach of Awake.

Yeah, but at the same time, hating on long songs and time signature changes just for the sake of principle, or because the fans of those songs might be a little overzealous isn't right either.

But Lie is awesome, and the music video is actually pretty damn cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.

Not sure if serious.

Completely serious. But I guess people with the "EPIC LONG SONGS AND TIME SIGNATURES CHANGES" or "Metal" mentality are always against the relative simplicity, and the metal/not so metal approach of Awake.

Awake is most definetly their hardest album to get into, but once you do. You get to love it. Awake and I&W were the first DT albums I got and I hated Awake at first, i felt like Scarred was akward and SDV was bad. But now, Awake is almost the only DT album I listen religously and Scarred is a top 3 song for me.

Come on man, saying that Lie is better than anything from those albums is quite the stretch. And BTW some of my favorite DT songs are the more straight forward ones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 03, 2013, 10:45:51 PM
You guys are gonna love where Lie ends up on my Top 50. Hint: (spoilerz) I like it more than any song from Octavarium, Systematic Chaos, and Black Clouds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
They say a picture says 1000 words, so I'll go with that-

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/themirrorvslie.jpg)

The Mirror is a healthy human being, and Lie is a chestburster that pops out of nowhere and completely kills it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on January 04, 2013, 12:09:59 AM
 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 04, 2013, 01:19:18 AM
Oh yeah, Lie is better than The Mirror too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 04, 2013, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.

Not sure if serious.

Quote from: Elite on January 03, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:

it's almost the worst song on the album. Like that means anything; Awake is still a top 10 album ever for me and the last very good one they did.

this thread was for controversial opinions right?

There's two problems with Awake:
Lie
SDV

Great moments are definitely Erotomania and 6:00. And there's a cowbell moment in CIAW. More cowbell please. Other than that, it's an average album at best with JLB just screaming most of the time.
I... I... don't know what to say...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 04, 2013, 03:20:34 AM
Yes... I don't understand. Does the performance on Voices, The Silent Man, Space Dye Vest look like screaming to you?  :o

I'm sorry if I come out as a bit blunt, but I thought that there was a general consensus that Awake showcases the best studio performance by James.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 04, 2013, 03:28:51 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 04, 2013, 03:20:34 AM
Yes... I don't understand. Does the performance on Voices, The Silent Man, Space Dye Vest look like screaming to you?  :o

I'm sorry if I come out as a bit blunt, but I thought that there was a general consensus that Awake showcases the best studio performance by James.

Not to mention Innocence Faded, which is my personal favorite of all his performances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on January 04, 2013, 03:52:03 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 04, 2013, 03:28:51 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 04, 2013, 03:20:34 AM
Yes... I don't understand. Does the performance on Voices, The Silent Man, Space Dye Vest look like screaming to you?  :o

I'm sorry if I come out as a bit blunt, but I thought that there was a general consensus that Awake showcases the best studio performance by James.

Not to mention Innocence Faded, which is my personal favorite of all his performances.

And a top 10 DT song at that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on January 04, 2013, 06:40:33 AM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:

Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that before. Lie is a top 3 HEAVY DT song for me.

Milena, gif from 4:16-4:17. Please now  :smiley:.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 04, 2013, 06:50:00 AM
Quote from: Ruba on January 04, 2013, 06:40:33 AM
Milena, gif from 4:16-4:17. Please now  :smiley:.
It's on the list :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toro on January 04, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2013, 10:32:10 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Completely serious. But I guess people with the "EPIC LONG SONGS AND TIME SIGNATURES CHANGES" or "Metal" mentality are always against the relative simplicity, and the metal/not so metal approach of Awake.

Yeah, but at the same time, hating on long songs and time signature changes just for the sake of principle, or because the fans of those songs might be a little overzealous isn't right either.

Where did I say that I hate long songs? I even professed my love for ACOS in this same thread. I just don't like when songs are made long for the sake of being long like ANTR and TMOLS.
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Come on man, saying that Lie is better than anything from those albums is quite the stretch.
BADASS =/= GOOD

Hey you said badass. But yes, Lie is definetly more badass than songs about, Vampires, Dark Masters, MUH FANS SAID THINGS, a car crash were everyone survived and a Count.

And Lie is at least better than all of the singles from those 3 albums.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
They say a picture says 1000 words, so I'll go with that-

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/themirrorvslie.jpg)

The Mirror is a healthy human being, and Lie is a chestburster that pops out of nowhere and completely kills it.
BUT BUT BUT.... THE REPRISE OF THE MIRROR AND THE ENDING ARE AMAZING.
RIGHT GUYS?
RIGHT? 
:-[
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 04, 2013, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on January 03, 2013, 02:04:29 PM
I absolutely hate the demo and live version of Take Away My Pain but love the album version. 

The demo just sounds sort of generic.  The album version, despite MP's vocal hatred, sounds like an otherworldly and positive look at a painful situation.  It really captures the sorrow yet glimmer of hope of losing a loved one.  Since the lyrics have moments where they finally come to grips that the end is near and they will have to deal with it it remains a positive and melancholic song. 

MP says it is a cheesy ride through Disneyworld but I think it is a hopeful ride through a terribly tragic situation.

Agreed, for the most part.  I don't hate the demo or live versions, but I do agree that they are vastly inferior to the album version, especially the demo, which plods along in a painfully slow manner.  I was flabbergasted when I first heard that Portnoy hated the album version, but it quickly became apparent that he doesn't like any version on FII that didn't end up the way he wanted it.  How dare someone else know better?! :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 04, 2013, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
They say a picture says 1000 words, so I'll go with that-

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/themirrorvslie.jpg)

The Mirror is a healthy human being, and Lie is a chestburster that pops out of nowhere and completely kills it.

I get what you're going for, here, but chestbursters are fucking awesome, and so is Lie. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: toro on January 04, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
Where did I say that I hate long songs? I even professed my love for ACOS in this same thread. I just don't like when songs are made long for the sake of being long like ANTR and TMOLS.
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Come on man, saying that Lie is better than anything from those albums is quite the stretch.
BADASS =/= GOOD

Hey you said badass. But yes, Lie is definetly more badass than songs about, Vampires, Dark Masters, MUH FANS SAID THINGS, a car crash were everyone survived and a Count.

And Lie is at least better than all of the singles from those 3 albums.


Well, since we're doing controversial opinions, I happen to disagree about that last statement.

Forsaken > Lie
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 04, 2013, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
They say a picture says 1000 words, so I'll go with that-

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/themirrorvslie.jpg)

The Mirror is a healthy human being, and Lie is a chestburster that pops out of nowhere and completely kills it.

I get what you're going for, here, but chestbursters are fucking awesome, and so is Lie. 

That is true. But it's a metaphor, so just think of the effect, rather than the badassery of a little alien dude popping out of a dude's torso and ripping him to shreds with blood spray.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 04, 2013, 11:23:28 AM
I'll try, Blob, I'll try.

And I'll probably watch Alien later.

Then possibly Spaceballs. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2013, 12:26:46 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 11:21:31 AM

That is true. But it's a metaphor, so just think of the effect, rather than the badassery of a little alien dude popping out of a dude's torso and ripping him to shreds with blood spray.

Sorry, but the only metaphor I see in that picture is that The Mirror was something boring and ordinary, and Lie made it awesome.

Which isn't true, mind you. I think The Mirror is pretty awesome. But Lie does nothing to diminish it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 04, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
The Mirror and Lie being back to back only makes both songs that much better.  Both are damn good songs already, but the musical link between them is great, and just adds to the overall awesomeness of Awake. :tup :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kirksnosehair on January 04, 2013, 01:15:01 PM
^that's not a very controversial opinion, bro  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 04, 2013, 03:06:46 PM
The Mirror and Lie are both the best pair, especially live. Close behind, Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live.

And I really don't like One Last Time - The Dance Of Eternity pair. Don't care TDOE but OLT works so well alone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2013, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on January 04, 2013, 03:06:46 PM
Don't care TDOE

As far as I'm concerned, that's a damn controversial opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 04, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
Good. It seems I use this thread to good advantage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 05, 2013, 03:28:09 PM
Quote from: toro on January 04, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
They say a picture says 1000 words, so I'll go with that-

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/themirrorvslie.jpg)

The Mirror is a healthy human being, and Lie is a chestburster that pops out of nowhere and completely kills it.
BUT BUT BUT.... THE REPRISE OF THE MIRROR AND THE ENDING ARE AMAZING.
RIGHT GUYS?
RIGHT? 
:-[
So, it's kind of like a reverse chestburster. :justjen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 06, 2013, 12:25:19 AM
The Mirror and Lie together = :2metal: :2metal: :2metal: :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

The Dance of Eternity is one of those DT songs that is cool at first, but gets boring after you've heard it multiple times.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 03, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
Would like to hear that demo of Kevin singing it MP talked about if it exists still somewhere. I know it doesn't because the world hates me. :mora:
Me too! The vocal melodies are very Kevin-ish, and I could imagine his voice fitting this song, but obviously only if he sang the chorus, the second verse and other high parts an octave lower.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 06, 2013, 12:59:32 AM
Quote from: kirksnosehair on January 04, 2013, 01:15:01 PM
^that's not a very controversial opinion, bro  :)
Well, I usually skip both of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 06, 2013, 04:02:41 AM
Quote from: ? on January 06, 2013, 12:25:19 AM
The Mirror and Lie together = :2metal: :2metal: :2metal: :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

The Dance of Eternity is one of those DT songs that is cool at first, but gets boring after you've heard it multiple times.
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 03, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
Would like to hear that demo of Kevin singing it MP talked about if it exists still somewhere. I know it doesn't because the world hates me. :mora:
Me too! The vocal melodies are very Kevin-ish, and I could imagine his voice fitting this song, but obviously only if he sang the chorus, the second verse and other high parts an octave lower.
Quoted for absolute agreement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 07, 2013, 09:58:37 AM
The Answer Lies Within is a dreadful for song and would be for any band

BC&SL is DTs worst album - but Nightmare to remember is still a cool song up to the MP growly bit

FII is an awesome album and I prefer the songs on it to the demo versions - I also think it sounds immense mixwise

I cant watch Scenes from New York anymore as the graphics date it horrendously and I think its flat soundwise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 07, 2013, 10:13:28 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 07, 2013, 09:58:37 AM
I cant watch Scenes from New York anymore as the graphics date it horrendously.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 07, 2013, 10:15:05 AM
I still watch it and love it. I chuckle at the Mexican carpet graphics though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 07, 2013, 10:16:24 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 07, 2013, 09:58:37 AM
FII is an awesome album and I prefer the songs on it to the demo versions - I also think it sounds immense mixwise


Most would say the same thing about the mix. It's still awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 07, 2013, 10:20:20 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 07, 2013, 10:15:05 AM
I still watch it and love it. I chuckle at the Mexican carpet graphics though.

That is an insult to Mexican carpets everywhere.

Unless it's a Mexican carpet laced with heroin. Then it's probably about right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 07, 2013, 11:37:05 AM
1. Images And Words
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Awake
4. Scenes from a Memory
5. Train Of Thought
6. Octavarium
7. When Dream And Day Unite
8. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
9. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

Just an update. WDADU moved up again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on January 07, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Images is definitely in the lower half of their albums quality-wise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on January 07, 2013, 04:50:14 PM
;_;
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 07, 2013, 05:45:12 PM
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on January 07, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Images is definitely in the lower half of their albums quality-wise.

That's a new one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on January 07, 2013, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 07:26:16 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: toro on January 03, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1neeto on January 03, 2013, 03:44:23 PM
For all you Awake fans. Bad ass right... right  :facepalm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD7OdyY1js4

:barf:
More badass than anything they did on 8VM, SC and BC&SL.

Not sure if serious.

Completely serious. But I guess people with the "EPIC LONG SONGS AND TIME SIGNATURES CHANGES" or "Metal" mentality are always against the relative simplicity, and the metal/not so metal approach of Awake.

Awake is most definetly their hardest album to get into, but once you do. You get to love it. Awake and I&W were the first DT albums I got and I hated Awake at first, i felt like Scarred was akward and SDV was bad. But now, Awake is almost the only DT album I listen religously and Scarred is a top 3 song for me.
Haha, funny case for me. I heard Awake second last (WDADU being last, not including AtDoE) out of all of their albums and it was my favourite from first listen. :lol My rankings have change drastically since then, but it's still probably like second favourite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 07, 2013, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 07, 2013, 10:13:28 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 07, 2013, 09:58:37 AM
I cant watch Scenes from New York anymore as the graphics date it horrendously.

I thought it looked relatively amateurish when it was first released in 2001.  I never have really minded it though.  With anything, movies, concert dvds, etc...they are like a time capsule and i can almost always look past that stuff. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

But I'd like to explore DT further.
And to throw in something more controversial: Under a Glass Moon sucks and is very boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 08, 2013, 05:39:56 PM
What just happened?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 08, 2013, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

But I'd like to explore DT further.
And to throw in something more controversial: Under a Glass Moon sucks and is very boring.

Can't go wrong with most of their albums, although I've particularly enjoyed Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and A Dramatic Turn of Events. (I'd shamelessly plug Scenes from a Memory as well, but I don't have that one.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 09, 2013, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on January 07, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Images is definitely in the lower half of their albums quality-wise.
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

But I'd like to explore DT further.
And to throw in something more controversial: Under a Glass Moon sucks and is very boring.
I think we can already declare this the most controversial page of the thread!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 09, 2013, 08:14:21 AM
Erg: If you're looking for something a little different, try Falling Into Infinity. It gets a lot of flak because Mike Portnoy doesn't like it, but it's a very good album, and in many places DT have reigned themselves in on the album and practiced some restraint, which works pretty good. It's certainly a very enjoyable album (albeit with some duds, namely New Millenium, You Not Me and Just Let Me Breathe).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Man-Erg on January 09, 2013, 08:16:49 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, I think I'll just work my way up from Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 09, 2013, 08:19:50 AM
You would do well to go directly into Awake. It's their third album, and it's very interesting to reflect on the evolution of the sound as well as the lyrical and musical identity of the band. Plus, it's definitely a great album, widely considered among the three best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 09, 2013, 08:51:08 AM
Yeah, you can't go wrong with Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 09, 2013, 08:58:03 AM
Awake is definitely the next CD you should check out.  Voices and Lifting Shadows off a Dream are lyrically astounding.  All of the lyrics are brilliant but the aforementioned always impressed me most.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 09:36:15 AM
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

I don't like Dream Theater that much, but they have a forum and a community, so what the fuck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 09, 2013, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 09:36:15 AM
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

I don't like Dream Theater that much, but they have a forum and a community, so what the fuck.

(https://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/126/84959143.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 09, 2013, 10:17:29 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 09, 2013, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 09:36:15 AM
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 08, 2013, 05:29:25 PM
Ok, here's one, though it's more of a fact:
I really have only listened to WtDaDU (I detest it) and I&W (4/5 stars) and I'm not really DT fan... I've joined mainly because of the awesome community.

I don't like Dream Theater that much, but they have a forum and a community, so what the fuck.

(https://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/126/84959143.gif)
Should I siggie that one so that you can siggie quote me as well? :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nekov on January 09, 2013, 10:58:22 AM
JLB has always been the weakest member in the band and is very much overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 09, 2013, 11:07:23 AM
Rage.

:neverusethis:

But seriously, I'd say he's underrated. A lot of casual fans and non-fans pretty much hate his guts. I'd say this forum has a fair assessment of him at least 80% of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 09, 2013, 11:14:02 AM
WRATH

:neverusethis: (my first reaction was RAGE, but Milena stole it :D )


I agree with that she said. Outside this community there is not a lot of people who is really in love with him, and to a certain extent I can understand them, as casual fans don't really have access to his best live performances (which are of course not the one that were officially recorded).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 09, 2013, 11:36:43 AM
Overall, I'd say JLB is just the right amount of rated here. We get the occasional person who thinks he's a God, and we get the occasional person who thinks he's awful, neither of which I believe is true, but overall I think most people are pretty honest about his strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 11:38:34 AM
It seems like most people besides diehard DT fans don't like him. It makes me sad to see so much hate thrown his way, because he's one of my favorite singers (probably 2nd favorite, behind Steve Walsh).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 09, 2013, 12:09:31 PM
It is true that non DT fans dislike him...

However I think this is mostly due to them following a trend of hating on LaBrie as it automatically comes up whenever DT is mentioned.

I've never had a problem with LaBries voice.

It doesnt sound like your typical metal singer and THATS why I like it,

It doesnt sound like some 6ft 6 body builder with hair down to his knees with one foot on the monitor giving the crowd the middle finger and saying fuck every other word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 09, 2013, 12:48:55 PM
I like that about him. He's not a traditional metal singer. He presents himself with a great deal more class and finesse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 09, 2013, 02:53:40 PM
And you don't get the feeling that it's all machismo and front.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 09, 2013, 04:10:16 PM
Exactly.

o/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 09, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Some of listeners are definitely precarious when JLB and his voice matter. When they watch his performances from 1990-94 era they fall in love right away. They think he is God in that era but some unfortunate circumstances happened and changed JLB's life in some extent. This include his voice. True that his voice has never sounded same, that wild and rough. But he is still James LaBrie. And when some of fans consider his actual voice (including 95-02 era) they turn into vocal expert and criticize him unfairly like his is the weakest link of the band, he always sounds awful.. ect. Well I'm the one, thinks that his 2010-2012 era is his best in this condition.

The thing is about him not the wild voice or random screams which he used to do. His timbre is unique. That's why I love him and I'm sure most of you love him for that reason. There is no James LaBrie out there. He can have off nights but who doesn't? Saying that he is not my cup of tea is completely understandable but saying that he is not a good singer is somewhat odd knocking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 09, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on January 09, 2013, 04:41:02 PM


The thing is about him not the wild voice or random screams which he used to do. His timbre is unique. That's why I love him and I'm sure most of you love him for that reason. There is no James LaBrie out there. He can have off nights but who doesn't? Saying that he is not my cup of tea is completely understandable but saying that he is not a good singer is somewhat odd knocking.


There is no spoon?


FWIW I don't find too many flaws in his voice.  Though I think his work on Images in Words (Another Day specifically) really shines. I don't recall many other tracks SFAM and onward with the range he sings in Another Day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on January 09, 2013, 04:56:45 PM
My only controversial opinion with LaBrie, and it's a big one, is that he looks like he'd rather be anywhere else than on stage.

He looks soooooooo bored and uninterested.  He's the fucking Front Man and he needs to fucking OWN the stage and the crowd.  Without actually saying it, he needs to say to the crowd "we're fucking Dream Theater and we're gonna fucking OWN you tonight".  Instead he finishes his lyric, looks down and walks off stage, then comes back looking like he just woke up from a nap or something.  He's the only one who has true freedom on stage to go anywhere and do anything while performing.  He's not bad for the first few songs then he just starts slowly strolling around and zzzzzzzzzzz....

I'm not saying for him to be a Jon Bon Jovi or a Freddie Mercury, but come on, we're excited to be here and for a lot of people it's their first DT show or maybe they only see DT once every few years.  OWN ME, JAMES, ROX MY SOX OFF!

I was hoping with pseudo-Front Man MP gone he'd step up but he really didn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 09, 2013, 04:58:01 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 09, 2013, 04:56:45 PM


I'm not saying for him to be a Jon Bon Jovi

So you want him to suck even more?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 09, 2013, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 09, 2013, 04:56:45 PM
I'm not saying for him to be a Jon Bon Jovi or a Freddie Mercury, but come on, we're excited to be here and for a lot of people it's their first DT show or maybe they only see DT once every few years. 

For what it's worth, I saw DT for the first time on the ADToE tour, and I thought James was fine.  Certainly not the most engaging frontman in history, but not boring, either. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 09, 2013, 05:02:28 PM
PetFish, yes I agree some of your points.

But this more than he names himself as a fucking frotman and I'm sure he knows that but you know this band has been had 2 frotmen for years. I believe this case limited his freedom on the stage, even from the beginning. I've never seen him completely free frontman until 2011-12 era.

From what I watch on youtube or read comments about the recent performances he fucking owned the stage and crowd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 05:04:36 PM
Here's my controversial opinion: stage presence is overrated. For me, the music is the important part. I don't care if the guys on stage are sorta boring as long as they play well. Robert Fripp plays sitting down and looks like an old grump, but he's a phenomenal musician. Would I prefer engaging performers? Of course, but it's not that big a deal.

But anyway, James does fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on January 09, 2013, 05:05:06 PM
I do wish JLB would spend some more time on stage. But there really isn't a whole lot he can do, but maybe engage the audience some more before walking off
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nekov on January 09, 2013, 05:08:33 PM
Don't get me wrong, I realize that he is a very good singer but I'd love to hear him sing low tones a lot more. I just feel like the guy knows he's really good at something and just sticks to it instead of trying to go for new horizons
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on January 09, 2013, 07:53:03 PM
Quote from: Man-Erg on January 09, 2013, 08:16:49 AM
Thanks for the suggestions, I think I'll just work my way up from Images and Words.
Neat username. VdGG used to be my favourite band back when I was a prog nerd. My tastes branched out a lot, but I still love them to death. :heart :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
Quote from: Nekov on January 09, 2013, 05:08:33 PM
Don't get me wrong, I realize that he is a very good singer but I'd love to hear him sing low tones a lot more. I just feel like the guy knows he's really good at something and just sticks to it instead of trying to go for new horizons

Seriously? I feel like on ADTOE, there were by far not enough high parts from him. He just stayed in a relatively comfortable mid-range. I wanted to hear more high vocals like at the end of This Is The Life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 10, 2013, 01:23:13 AM
About frontmanship - I'm pretty sure not even Bruce Dickinson would stay on stage stomping around if Maiden were playing five minute solos :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 10, 2013, 02:18:39 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 10, 2013, 01:23:13 AM
About frontmanship - I'm pretty sure not even Bruce Dickinson would stay on stage stomping around if Maiden were playing five minute solos :lol
I think he remains mainly stationary because, as we all know, he is very into professionalism, and as far as properly breathing while singing is concerned, you can't exactly do that while running and jumping around on stage while you're trying to sing. I think he just remains stationary because he wants to give his best performance vocally. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 10, 2013, 04:04:41 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 09, 2013, 05:04:36 PM
Here's my controversial opinion: stage presence is overrated.
Would I prefer engaging performers? Of course, but it's not that big a deal.
Agreed. I'd rather see a band with an excellent singer who stands still for 1,5 hours instead of a band with a shitty vocalist who runs around the stage all the time. However, connecting with the crowd is an important thing IMO - not necessarily moving on the stage, but interacting with the audience and paying attention to them.

Also, if James' stage presence isn't good enough, then what should he do during the instrumental section of Metropolis or Outcry - do the court jester dance for 5 minutes?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 10, 2013, 07:10:02 AM
He should get a team of backup dancers and shuffle, jerk, dougie, and gangnam style for five minutes in 13/8.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 10, 2013, 07:14:08 AM
His stage presence is underrated. Wait for the DVD and see what he brings. Of course you can't expect him to yell "Sing for me, Buenos Aires" in the middle of Wait For Sleep!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 10, 2013, 07:25:46 AM
And with the ASHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!! *G5*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 09, 2013, 04:56:45 PM
My only controversial opinion with LaBrie, and it's a big one, is that he looks like he'd rather be anywhere else than on stage.

He looks soooooooo bored and uninterested.  He's the fucking Front Man and he needs to fucking OWN the stage and the crowd.  Without actually saying it, he needs to say to the crowd "we're fucking Dream Theater and we're gonna fucking OWN you tonight".  Instead he finishes his lyric, looks down and walks off stage, then comes back looking like he just woke up from a nap or something.  He's the only one who has true freedom on stage to go anywhere and do anything while performing.  He's not bad for the first few songs then he just starts slowly strolling around and zzzzzzzzzzz....

I'm not saying for him to be a Jon Bon Jovi or a Freddie Mercury, but come on, we're excited to be here and for a lot of people it's their first DT show or maybe they only see DT once every few years.  OWN ME, JAMES, ROX MY SOX OFF!

I was hoping with pseudo-Front Man MP gone he'd step up but he really didn't.

I completely disagree with you. Everytime I've seen DT live (5 times), he's been energetic every time. Sure, he's no Bruce Dickinson in terms of energy, but that's not his thing. JLB focuses on giving people a good show, and that's what he does.

As for my "controversial" opinion in regards to DT, I would have to say that they really need an outside producer this time around. I believe they need someone to give them a different perspective. However, hopefully with MM now in the writing fold, that will happen. I think the main detriment to their writing process since SDOIT, was the formula they operated within. The whole go into the studio and write with no pre determined ideas or riffs.

Also, I think they shouldn't be afraid to go against the grain again. ADTOE was a step in right direction after the abomination of BCSL, but I think they should write together more. I remember a quote from JP stating that he was upset when he couldn't write all the lyrics to an album. Which is kind of weird. I think a band should be inspired by each other's ideas.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 17, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Also, I think they shouldn't be afraid to go against the grain again. ADTOE was a step in right direction after the abomination of BCSL

I don't understand this.  I personally prefer ADToE, but I would say between the two of them, BC&SL was the one that went against the grain. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:39:05 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 17, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Also, I think they shouldn't be afraid to go against the grain again. ADTOE was a step in right direction after the abomination of BCSL

I don't understand this.  I personally prefer ADToE, but I would say between the two of them, BC&SL was the one that went against the grain.

Fair enough. BCSL to me was just kind of "eh" and uninteresting. The lyrics were very uninteresting and uninspired IMO. But that's just me. Everyone's tastes are subjective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2013, 07:49:37 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 17, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
Also, I think they shouldn't be afraid to go against the grain again. ADTOE was a step in right direction after the abomination of BCSL

I don't understand this.  I personally prefer ADToE, but I would say between the two of them, BC&SL was the one that went against the grain. 

So very true. ADTOE is the least "going against the grain" album they've probably ever written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer81 on January 18, 2013, 09:51:02 AM
ADTOE was definitely a step in the right direction, SC and BC&SL were soooo disappointing..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 18, 2013, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: Dreamer81 on January 18, 2013, 09:51:02 AM
ADTOE was definitely a step in the right direction, SC and BC&SL were soooo disappointing..

Funny. I think SC is the last interesting disc they put out.  Never could get into BC&SL or ADToE!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on January 18, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
I remember a quote from JP stating that he was upset when he couldn't write all the lyrics to an album. Which is kind of weird.
I remember JLB saying that he had a few other lyrics for ADTOE but they were rejected. I don't remember JP saying that though
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 18, 2013, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: SystematicThought on January 18, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
I remember a quote from JP stating that he was upset when he couldn't write all the lyrics to an album. Which is kind of weird.
I remember JLB saying that he had a few other lyrics for ADTOE but they were rejected. I don't remember JP saying that though

Yes, it's the first time I hear of that myself. Ah, I seem to remember that James submitted lyrics for Outcry. Can anyone confirm this or is it a fake memory of mine?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 18, 2013, 10:18:56 AM
Quote from: Mindflux on January 18, 2013, 09:59:19 AM
Funny. I think SC is the last interesting disc they put out.  Never could get into BC&SL or ADToE!

Well, that's certainly a controversial opinion. But not for me. SC rules!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: marlencrabapple on January 18, 2013, 11:50:48 AM
I think that BC&SL had the best overall vocals since Awake, and ADTOE was a huge step back. It was the way that he pronounced words and put emphasis on certain things on BC&SL that made me like it so much. That was something that was missing from most of their post-Awake albums.

And on the front man matter: James should just start dancing again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jdprsaga on January 18, 2013, 01:27:11 PM
first ... I have to jump in into the jlb controversy wagon..

not that i don't like it at all, but all my friends (non are prog fans) say they can't listen to dream theater cause labrie voice is too annoying, specially live.

Second,  i would like one album with less epic, metal, wankery. more hard rock oriented prog  a la FII lines in the sand/trial of tears. getting tire of the wankery, we all know they can wank all day long so epicly, fast and energetic that they can go back in time creating parallel universes with new versions of wankery.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 18, 2013, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: SystematicThought on January 18, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
I remember a quote from JP stating that he was upset when he couldn't write all the lyrics to an album. Which is kind of weird.
I remember JLB saying that he had a few other lyrics for ADTOE but they were rejected. I don't remember JP saying that though

Yes, it's the first time I hear of that myself. Ah, I seem to remember that James submitted lyrics for Outcry. Can anyone confirm this or is it a fake memory of mine?
I definitely saw this interview. It wasn't a control freak type thing though. He just simply said he would love to be able to write lyrics to every song on an album one day. He said every album he thinks he'll be able to but then someone will say they want to do lyrics for a song and he'll be like "damn". haha. I can tell he just wants to do it for the self satisfaction. As a musician, I totally understand that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 18, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
He just simply said he would love to be able to write lyrics to every song on an album one day. He said every album he thinks he'll be able to but then someone will say they want to do lyrics for a song and he'll be like "damn".
We need a Polite Pirate James meme :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 18, 2013, 01:51:16 PM
Well, if he has a coherent story to develope through the songs, or otherwise interwoven lyrics, I think the other would be glad to step down for an album, right? I would for sure. But if that's not the case I would rather have the others contribute as well, and actually step up to even up the lyrics count within each album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 18, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
He just simply said he would love to be able to write lyrics to every song on an album one day. He said every album he thinks he'll be able to but then someone will say they want to do lyrics for a song and he'll be like "damn".
We need a Polite Pirate James meme :lol :lol
I was actually talking about JP. hahaha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 18, 2013, 05:44:05 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 18, 2013, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: SystematicThought on January 18, 2013, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: Scotto123 on January 17, 2013, 08:28:28 PM
I remember a quote from JP stating that he was upset when he couldn't write all the lyrics to an album. Which is kind of weird.
I remember JLB saying that he had a few other lyrics for ADTOE but they were rejected. I don't remember JP saying that though

Yes, it's the first time I hear of that myself. Ah, I seem to remember that James submitted lyrics for Outcry. Can anyone confirm this or is it a fake memory of mine?

I heard James had submitted lyrics for possibly 3 other songs but that was from a guy that read it in a foreign interview and I never did get to confirm that myself.  Thats kind of disappointing if its true. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 19, 2013, 01:16:23 AM
JM will probably continue the tradition of writing lyrics for one song per album, but I hope James will get to write more to make things more varied.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 19, 2013, 01:56:40 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 18, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
He just simply said he would love to be able to write lyrics to every song on an album one day. He said every album he thinks he'll be able to but then someone will say they want to do lyrics for a song and he'll be like "damn".
We need a Polite Pirate James meme :lol :lol
I was actually talking about JP. hahaha.
* WE NEED A POLITE BEAR JOHN MEME. THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 19, 2013, 02:10:32 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 19, 2013, 01:56:40 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 18, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 18, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
He just simply said he would love to be able to write lyrics to every song on an album one day. He said every album he thinks he'll be able to but then someone will say they want to do lyrics for a song and he'll be like "damn".
We need a Polite Pirate James meme :lol :lol
I was actually talking about JP. hahaha.
* WE NEED A POLITE BEAR JOHN MEME. THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS.

(https://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on January 19, 2013, 05:21:00 AM
OTBOA/BAI are the best DT songs since 2005.
Constant Motion is AWESOME, so is Dark Eternal Night.
Shattered Fortress is a GOOD song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on January 19, 2013, 06:00:59 AM
Quote from: jdprsaga on January 18, 2013, 01:27:11 PM
first ... I have to jump in into the jlb controversy wagon..

not that i don't like it at all, but all my friends (non are prog fans) say they can't listen to dream theater cause labrie voice is too annoying, specially live.


I was the same way for a while but then JLB's voice grew on me and it wasn't so bad, until I saw him live. I saw him live the first time during the QR and DT tour in 2003 and man, I thought I was listening to a chipmunk, and it felt like I was the only one, like I was taking crazy pills or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 19, 2013, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on January 19, 2013, 06:00:59 AM
Quote from: jdprsaga on January 18, 2013, 01:27:11 PM
first ... I have to jump in into the jlb controversy wagon..

not that i don't like it at all, but all my friends (non are prog fans) say they can't listen to dream theater cause labrie voice is too annoying, specially live.


I was the same way for a while but then JLB's voice grew on me and it wasn't so bad, until I saw him live. I saw him live the first time during the QR and DT tour in 2003 and man, I thought I was listening to a chipmunk, and it felt like I was the only one, like I was taking crazy pills or something.

2003 had many quite iffy performances, but you have to understand him, he had just started his vocal restyle that ultimately succeeded in saving his career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Yazman on January 19, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
I guess my one controversial DT opinion is that Pull Me Under really isn't that great. While I can't say there are any DT songs I don't like, Pull Me Under is one of my least liked ones. It's cool and all but I don't get what the big fuss is. It's nothing special.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 19, 2013, 06:45:50 AM
Quote from: Yazman on January 19, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
I guess my one controversial DT opinion is that Pull Me Under really isn't that great. While I can't say there are any DT songs I don't like, Pull Me Under is one of my least liked ones. It's cool and all but I don't get what the big fuss is. It's nothing special.

I think the big fuss is mostly that it happened to be the "hit" of the album, and is a more accessible song for the average listener.
I don't think it's overrated here compared to other songs from IaW though. I think it's a great song, but I'd only rank it middle or lower half of the album (which is no shame for such a consistently good album), and I'm sure a lot of people here feel the same. Metropolis and LTL are consistently much more highly regarded, as are probably other songs on the album like TTT and UAGM.
I don't know, it can be hard to gauge with IaW, since every song seems to get its fair share of love.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on January 19, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
There's no bad song on Images & Words, just the least great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 19, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
Quote from: Yazman on January 19, 2013, 06:38:49 AM
I guess my one controversial DT opinion is that Pull Me Under really isn't that great. While I can't say there are any DT songs I don't like, Pull Me Under is one of my least liked ones. It's cool and all but I don't get what the big fuss is. It's nothing special.

I get what you are saying.  I, too, think it is probably one of their most overplayed live songs (there are some other great songs I'd love to see them dig out for the next tour).  However for me, it is more about nostalgia and appreciating the song that got me and probably a lot of other fans here in Dream Theater in the first place.  I remember hearing it on a local radio station back in 1992 and immediately wanting to hear more from this band.  That is just my take on it.  The lyrics are still great to listen to even 20 years later also.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 19, 2013, 07:23:04 AM
It's funny but being from that era, PMU is what got me into DT, like Prog Snob has said, I heard it on the radio and was searching for something heavier that was proggy and lucky for me DT came along so I have much love for PMU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirzekDT on January 19, 2013, 08:33:35 AM
Quote from: jhonvictor on January 19, 2013, 05:21:00 AM
Shattered Fortress is a GOOD song.

WTF is controversial about this??? It's awesome song, probably my favorite from BC&SL, the second favorite at least. Now my opinion may be controversial for some people but that it's a GOOD song? Does really everybody hate it so much? Sorry, I just enjoy The Shattered Fortress too much :)

BTW The Shattered Fortress is much better than The Glass Prison if you want some controversial opinion. And don't worry I really like The Glass Prison but it's definitely my least favorite from Six Degrees even though every song is very good on Six Degrees...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 19, 2013, 09:06:10 AM
Quote from: MirzekDT on January 19, 2013, 08:33:35 AM
Quote from: jhonvictor on January 19, 2013, 05:21:00 AM
Shattered Fortress is a GOOD song.

WTF is controversial about this??? It's awesome song, probably my favorite from BC&SL, the second favorite at least. Now my opinion may be controversial for some people but that it's a GOOD song? Does really everybody hate it so much? Sorry, I just enjoy The Shattered Fortress too much :)


I think with most people, me included, that don't like the song think that it is just a bunch of recycled riffs that don't seem to fit that seamlessly. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on January 19, 2013, 09:15:06 AM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on January 19, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
There's no bad song on Images & Words, just the least great.

Not many people are going to argue with you on that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 19, 2013, 09:50:12 AM
Ministry of Lost Souls is a top 15 song

These Walls and Endless Sacrifice are top 10
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jhonvictor on January 20, 2013, 04:33:33 AM
Outcry sucks compared to the rest of the album.
As I Am is the 2nd best of the album, and for sure a top 30 song. (idk why it gets so much hate)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 20, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
As I Am's chorus is pretty lackluster, especially after the rockin' verses. I don't mind the lyrics, it's just the chorus that brings it down for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 20, 2013, 08:05:04 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 20, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
As I Am's chorus is pretty lackluster, especially after the rockin' verses. I don't mind the lyrics, it's just the chorus that brings it down for me.

This is exactly how I feel too! The first verse is actually quite to very cool! :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 20, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
As I Am is a pretty cool rocker and one of DT's better straightforward metal songs, but I think it could've been really awesome if they had built the whole song around the slow beginning part, as I love doom metal! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaotic_ripper on January 20, 2013, 10:10:47 AM
I actually like Raw Dog.  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 20, 2013, 10:16:36 AM
Raw Dog isn't bad at all, but not something I want to listen to all the time. Maybe once a year or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on January 20, 2013, 10:19:51 AM
Quote from: jhonvictor on January 20, 2013, 04:33:33 AM
Outcry sucks compared to the rest of the album.
I agree. Well, a bit. I don't like the lyrics (subject is good, but way too cheesy) and I am indifferent towards the instrumental parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 20, 2013, 10:29:09 AM
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I'm not really focused on lyrics all that much so it doesn't really bother me when the song comes up, but when I actively focus on the lyrics, I'm always thinking that it's a very direct lyrical approach, perhaps too direct to have the effect that it could have had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 20, 2013, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on January 19, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
There's no bad song on Images & Words, just the least great.


Except Surrounded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 20, 2013, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on January 20, 2013, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on January 19, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
There's no bad song on Images & Words, just the least great.


Except Surrounded.
(https://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn431/Moriel_Alcaril/reaction/tumblr_inline_mft6mhKoQ01r9vdbu.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 20, 2013, 12:44:45 PM
lol


I have to be in a certain mood to listen to Surrounded. It's also one of the few songs in DT's discography I will skip when it comes on in the context of the album. It was amazing live though... like I said... I have to be in the mood to listen to  it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 20, 2013, 12:51:48 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 20, 2013, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on January 20, 2013, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on January 19, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
There's no bad song on Images & Words, just the least great.


Except Surrounded.
(https://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn431/Moriel_Alcaril/reaction/tumblr_inline_mft6mhKoQ01r9vdbu.jpg)
Quoted for both truth and image hilarity. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on January 20, 2013, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 20, 2013, 10:29:09 AM
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I'm not really focused on lyrics all that much so it doesn't really bother me when the song comes up, but when I actively focus on the lyrics, I'm always thinking that it's a very direct lyrical approach, perhaps too direct to have the effect that it could have had.
Hell, I even like the lyrics to Count of Tuscany better. I mean, the Arabian spring was really, well, a big event, and it's not a bad thing to write lyrics about that. But things like "Freedom has a price, the cost is buried in the ground" are just so incredibly cheesy. JP could've written better lyrics and still be direct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on January 20, 2013, 01:53:30 PM
Here's a new one.

The Silent Man is the best song off Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 20, 2013, 02:52:26 PM
Here's one.

I actually think Dream Theater sucks, but they had a forum and some threads, so what the fuck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 20, 2013, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: Lolzeez on January 20, 2013, 01:53:30 PM
Here's a new one.

The Silent Man is the best song off Awake.

It's one my favourites off the album as well. The Mirror and Caught in a Web tie with it, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 20, 2013, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 20, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
As I Am's chorus is pretty lackluster, especially after the rockin' verses. I don't mind the lyrics, it's just the chorus that brings it down for me.

I do not like green eggs and ham.  Sam I am.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 20, 2013, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 20, 2013, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 20, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
As I Am's chorus is pretty lackluster, especially after the rockin' verses. I don't mind the lyrics, it's just the chorus that brings it down for me.

I do not like them Sam I am. I do not like green eggs and ham.

Could you would you in a boat?

Would you could you with a goat?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 20, 2013, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yes, no, no, yes, yes. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 20, 2013, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yes, no, no, yes, yes.
ADTOE < Everything other than WDADU
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 20, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
Quote from: Lolzeez on January 20, 2013, 01:53:30 PM
Here's a new one.

The Silent Man is the best song off Awake.

It's definitely one of my favourites off the album, so I'm ok with this.


Quote from: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 20, 2013, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yes, no, no, yes, yes.
ADTOE < Everything other than WDADU

Well at least we can agree on something today. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 20, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
Well at least we can agree on something today. :P
Word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on January 21, 2013, 11:20:57 AM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

I made a mistake. I posted this in an opinions thread when it is clearly fact. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 20, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 20, 2013, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yes, no, no, yes, yes.
ADTOE < Everything other than WDADU

Well at least we can agree on something today. :P

You like Awake more than WDADU (not baiting, genuinely curious)?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 21, 2013, 11:56:26 AM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL
I might put 6 Degrees on the same level as A Dramatic Turn of Events, otherwise, yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 21, 2013, 02:05:01 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 20, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 20, 2013, 06:23:56 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yes, no, no, yes, yes.
ADTOE < Everything other than WDADU

Well at least we can agree on something today. :P

You like Awake more than WDADU (not baiting, genuinely curious)?

I probably shouldn't speak for Blob, but yes, I'm pretty sure he likes Awake better than WDADU.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Derp. I meant ADTOE.

So Blob, do you like Awake more than ADTOE?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on January 21, 2013, 04:32:02 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on January 20, 2013, 07:04:12 PM
ADTOE < Everything other than WDADU, FII and 8vm

FTFM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 21, 2013, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: snapple on January 20, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
ADToE>8vm, 6DOIT, ToT, SC, BC&SL

Yup. It's better than WDADU too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Derp. I meant ADTOE.

So Blob, do you like Awake more than ADTOE?

They're actually both at the bottom for me, so that's a toughy. As an album ADTOE is more consistent, but up until Lie, Awake is a very good album.
I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with Awake, but lop off everything from Lie onwards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 21, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Derp. I meant ADTOE.

So Blob, do you like Awake more than ADTOE?

They're actually both at the bottom for me, so that's a toughy. As an album ADTOE is more consistent, but up until Lie, Awake is a very good album.
I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with Awake, but lop off everything from Lie onwards.

Wow...so Lifting Shadows doesn't do anything for you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 08:05:27 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 21, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Derp. I meant ADTOE.

So Blob, do you like Awake more than ADTOE?

They're actually both at the bottom for me, so that's a toughy. As an album ADTOE is more consistent, but up until Lie, Awake is a very good album.
I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with Awake, but lop off everything from Lie onwards.

Wow...so Lifting Shadows doesn't do anything for you?

I don't hate it, but "does nothing for me" would be an accurate description.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 21, 2013, 08:08:34 PM
It's not cheesy and 80s enough. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 08:10:46 PM
Yes, because every other DT song I listen to is cheesy and 80s.  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 21, 2013, 08:15:05 PM
Go to bed, Blob.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 21, 2013, 08:15:38 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 08:05:27 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 21, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 21, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
Derp. I meant ADTOE.

So Blob, do you like Awake more than ADTOE?

They're actually both at the bottom for me, so that's a toughy. As an album ADTOE is more consistent, but up until Lie, Awake is a very good album.
I guess if I had to choose, I'd go with Awake, but lop off everything from Lie onwards.

Wow...so Lifting Shadows doesn't do anything for you?

I don't hate it, but "does nothing for me" would be an accurate description.

For me, if they had started the CD at Innocence Faded I'd be perfectly content.  Not that 6:00 and CiaW are horrible songs, but I don't always look forward to hearing them live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 21, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
I used to think the same way, but then I heard 6:00 live...  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 21, 2013, 11:58:29 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 21, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
I used to think the same way, but then I heard 6:00 live...  ::)


I used to be indifferent towards 6:00. That was until I hear it live :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 22, 2013, 12:00:05 AM
I saw it live before I heard the studio version. I think that both are awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 22, 2013, 12:16:14 AM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on January 22, 2013, 12:00:05 AM
I saw it live before I heard the studio version. I think that both are awesome!

how is that possible?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 22, 2013, 04:05:14 AM
YouTube video, perhaps?

Anyway, my opinions on Awake form a sort-of reverse-Blob: if the first three tracks were cut, the album would be then best DT disc by a long shot. Not that they are bad, and Awake is still my third favourite DT album, but the other tracks are really, really awesome and on a whole different level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 22, 2013, 06:24:55 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on January 22, 2013, 12:16:14 AM
Quote from: Cedar redaC on January 22, 2013, 12:00:05 AM
I saw it live before I heard the studio version. I think that both are awesome!

how is that possible?

Maybe he hadn't gotten into their full discography yet, but he enough of a fan to wish to check them out live already. I think he will tell us the truth quite soon :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 22, 2013, 06:28:55 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 22, 2013, 06:24:55 AM
Maybe he hadn't gotten into their full discography yet, but he enough of a fan to wish to check them out live already. I think he will tell us the truth quite soon :D
Yeah, I think this is the case. I might remember wrong, but hasn't he not heard Scenes in full yet (or maybe I'm thinking of someone else)?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 22, 2013, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: ? on January 22, 2013, 06:28:55 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 22, 2013, 06:24:55 AM
Maybe he hadn't gotten into their full discography yet, but he enough of a fan to wish to check them out live already. I think he will tell us the truth quite soon :D
Yeah, I think this is the case. I might remember wrong, but hasn't he not heard Scenes in full yet (or maybe I'm thinking of someone else)?

Yes, he is still a pretty new DT fan... and we already corrupted him!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 22, 2013, 09:08:55 AM
Ok everyone, here's the story: I got into Dream Theater in the fall of 2011, around the time of the release of A Dramatic Turn of Events. I really got into their music and wanted to see them live. At this time, I only had A Dramatic Turn of Events and Images and Words on CD. When I saw them live, they played 6:00 after Bridges in the Sky (this was the North American Summer 2012 leg of the tour) and I knew that I had to have it on CD. Pretty soon I had bought Awake, Six Degrees, and Octavarium.

Quote from: ? on January 22, 2013, 06:28:55 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 22, 2013, 06:24:55 AM
Maybe he hadn't gotten into their full discography yet, but he enough of a fan to wish to check them out live already. I think he will tell us the truth quite soon :D
Yeah, I think this is the case. I might remember wrong, but hasn't he not heard Scenes in full yet (or maybe I'm thinking of someone else)?

I have heard Scenes on Grooveshark, but I haven't got the album on CD yet.

I would buy more of their stuff, but I've been discovering so much great music lately that I haven't been able to focus on completing any discographies yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 22, 2013, 01:30:52 PM
It's all good
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 22, 2013, 05:23:04 PM
Here's one: Octavarium is a fantastic album, and is better than Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Meatrose on January 23, 2013, 12:17:21 PM
How about this: Pull Me Under is by far the weakest track on Images And Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 23, 2013, 01:21:24 PM
Quote from: Meatrose on January 23, 2013, 12:17:21 PM
How about this: Pull Me Under is by far the weakest track on Images And Words.

I think that's generally agreed on :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 23, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

That being said, I absolutely love JMX and I think he is absolutely incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 23, 2013, 01:45:33 PM
Trial of Tears would like to have with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 23, 2013, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on January 23, 2013, 01:45:33 PM
Trial of Tears would like to have with you.

Have what with him?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on January 23, 2013, 03:03:55 PM
A word. Just like my fingers would like to have a word with my brain before typing. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on January 23, 2013, 03:06:24 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 23, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

I think why people like JM lyrics is cuz he writes "cryptic" lyrics in that they give the listener breathing room to interpret them how they want.  Kevin Moore wrote the same way.  Most of the other guys write "literal" lyrics that are just so obvious what the song is about and it really stifles any opportunity for the listener to have a personal connection unless they can directly relate to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 23, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
Well, I wouldn't call the lyrics in OTBOA literal at all... I think we don't know yet what precisely they are about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 23, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
Not to mention stuff like Scarred from the earlier days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 23, 2013, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 23, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
Not to mention stuff like Scarred from the earlier days.

Or UAGM. I named OTBOA to prevent people from saying: "Yeah, JP used to write metaphorically rich lyrics in his youth, now he just writes of persians, shamans, pipes and zombie pharaos"

Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

You better be fast.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 23, 2013, 03:35:25 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 23, 2013, 03:19:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 23, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
Not to mention stuff like Scarred from the earlier days.

Or UAGM. I named OTBOA to prevent people from saying: "Yeah, JP used to write metaphorically rich lyrics in his youth, now he just writes of persians, shamans, pipes and zombie pharaos"

Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

You better be fast.
(https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb0hfltCAF1rsw1yf.gif)
On my way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pols Voice on January 23, 2013, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

You're right. It's not good...


























...it's phenomenal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2013, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

I'm ok with this. :tup

Well actually, even I would still call it good (for the most part), I just wouldn't call it one of DT's better albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 08:49:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2013, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

I'm ok with this. :tup

Well actually, even I would still call it good (for the most part), I just wouldn't call it one of DT's better albums.
Er, yeah, I mean it's tolerable. But it's significantly worse than DT's best material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 24, 2013, 12:33:45 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on January 23, 2013, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Ħ on January 23, 2013, 03:18:02 PM
Here's a controversial opinion: Awake is not a good album. *runs*

You're right. It's not good...


























...it's phenomenal.

And now, imagine that James said it to your ears: phenomenal!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 24, 2013, 03:16:08 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 23, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote.
JM has always had someone to help him shape the lyrics into their final form (https://faq.dtnorway.com/question?questionid=1058), but it wasn't until now that JP got credited for that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on January 24, 2013, 03:58:14 AM
This Dying Soul is DT's best song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 24, 2013, 07:20:04 AM
Quote from: wolfking on January 24, 2013, 03:58:14 AM
This Dying Soul is DT's best song.

...

We have a winner. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer81 on January 24, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
Quote from: wolfking on January 24, 2013, 03:58:14 AM
Bridges in the Sky is DT's best song.


Fixed!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on January 24, 2013, 12:29:32 PM
Awake has more highlights than I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 24, 2013, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: ? on January 24, 2013, 03:16:08 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 23, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote.
JM has always had someone to help him shape the lyrics into their final form (https://faq.dtnorway.com/question?questionid=1058), but it wasn't until now that JP got credited for that.
I was already aware of that, but they were saying that BAI was cowritten by JP. So I just figured JP cowriting the song with him, and JP shape the lyrics would have been a little different. But maybe that's what happened? I'm not sure. I guess we'll never know.


But I think DT is the greatest group of musicians ever assembled. I'm sure that statement might be a bit controversial to some people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 24, 2013, 06:07:53 PM
Breaking All Illusions has never clicked for me.

It has some nice sections but overall It doesn't do anything for me.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on January 24, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 23, 2013, 03:06:24 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 23, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

I think why people like JM lyrics is cuz he writes "cryptic" lyrics in that they give the listener breathing room to interpret them how they want.  Kevin Moore wrote the same way.  Most of the other guys write "literal" lyrics that are just so obvious what the song is about and it really stifles any opportunity for the listener to have a personal connection unless they can directly relate to them.
I broadly agree with Lord of the Strings, but I do like it when JM contributes simply because it adds another voice to the band.

I do think John's lyrics are a little samey, though, and they threaten to become word salad in places. They've got pleasant imagery, and they're broadly uplifting, but I think he's a good lyricist with his own strengths and flaws just like any of the others. I also think that as he writes so sparingly, we don't see as much of the weakness or the repetition as we have and do with other lyricists. If Myung was writing seven songs per album and Petrucci was writing one every four years(ish) I don't think the band's lyrics would be any better. Again, just different strengths and weaknesses. Same goes for Kev! Perfectly good writer, interesting stuff to say and he expresses it well, but he's not exceptional.

Honestly, my least favourite DT lyricist? Early-90s Petrucci. It's pleasant, but it's... just nonsense, isn't it? Even he couldn't tell you what Under a Glass Moon is about. Much better nowadays. Misunderstood is, in my (possibly controversial, possibly not!) opinion, the band's finest lyrical moment. It's the balance. It's evocative, plenty of images, parallels, but it's also close enough to be relatable. Makes you feel something. "Never use a long word when a short one will do" - George Orwell! Wrapping your point in layer upon layer of abstract imagery and metaphor isn't a good way to connect to your listener. UaGM sounds pretty enough, but I couldn't be more disconnected if I tried.

This also goes for a lot of fan favourites - Voices, Scarred. I'm glad someone else is getting something from them. That's grand, I'm glad they're as popular as they are, and it's clearly me who's missing out. But I am missing out. I'm just getting a list of metaphors. Not cogent, there's no connection - Voices goes from a spider to an angel to an old man to a newsstand. It doesn't take me anywhere. I mean, yes, it takes me to a pool, and a window, and a newsagents, but that's not a journey, that's a slideshow. There's no comment, it's just "look at this spider." Erratic. Whatever it's alluding to, whatever statement it's making, it's not made within the song. I find it a bit - whisper it - dull!

Not that I'm saying diverse imagery can't work. Petrucci sticks with the disparate image thing for pretty much his whole career, but it's fair to say he improves as he goes along. Images feel connected in later songs. "Playing a lion being led to a cage, I turn from a thief to a beggar, from a god to God, save me," not only have you got a strong biblical imagery, but there's a very clear vein of strength-to-weakness. I'm sure there's something like that in Voices, too, but you have to dig pretty deep, and possibly double check in an encyclopedia. The song's not making the statement.

Right, now, someone say something more controversial so nobody reads this! Bring back Mike Portnoy! John Myung looks better in white! David Prater was the only man who ever understood what Dream Theater really means!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 24, 2013, 06:54:38 PM
Mike Mangini's drum solos are actually dull as fuck and no sodding drummer needs FOUR bass drums.

 :facepalm: Two is plenty Mangini. Stop over-compensating.


I used to love Jordan when I forst got into DT about 5 years ago but I found his playing on SC and BC&SL far too showboaty and came to appreciate Derek's sounds and playing more.

Also - JR has that annoying habit of posting pictures or video clips online with a godawful stupid effect or filter on which kinda makes it look like he has no idea what he's doing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 24, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
Now..

Rob..

That's that done..

Would you care to chat a while ? :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on January 24, 2013, 07:07:28 PM
Oh! Actually! One more thing!
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings
Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote.
I belieeeeve JP (or MP or KM) helped write all of them. The stuff we all know - John Myung would give them the lyrics in a more freeform style, and his bandmates rewrote them into a shape that fit the song. That's quite a heavy duty operation, so they stopped after a while.

I've got a hunch that, rather than John Myung changing his working style, they rather agreed that his cohorts would receive a credit for their rewrites. Which is fair. Not only is a co-credit acknowledgment for a service that would've otherwise been invisible, but editing something and putting words they didn't say into an author's mouth can feel a bit like vandalism at times. What if you're making it worse, or detracting from the point they were trying to make?! Add your name to the credits, and you take joint responsibility.

Hunch! But I'd put a small amount of money on being right. I suppose that's true of any hunch, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 24, 2013, 07:08:48 PM
I actually just agree with all of this. I always say that JMX lyrics are precious because they map where he is as an artist at a certain point; if there were more of them, they would all be about the same thing. Except for the fact I don't think JP's much better now, because his strength is in the imagery, as opposed to telling a story - The Killing Hand and The Dark Eternal Night wouldn't be captivating in prose at all.

But when he depicts... I dunno, a measure of whether the lyric is good for me is whether I can proudly and unironically sing along to it without feeling silly, lots of bonus points if it's relatable. Even though UAGM and Voices are not about anything in particular, they are still so beautifully written I don't mind, and that's a rare occurrence for me. They are just overly sparkly, those words, and seemingly jumbled, just like their music, but so beautiful and beautifully put together, and beauty doesn't have to be about anything. They just fit into the early DT aesthetic as well - a group of thoughtful young men who all had such a visible spark and individuality to them, but they weren't dreadfully serious beyond their age or pompous, but just poetic and like flamboyant romantics I guess. Even the visuals - huge fluffy shirts, ridiculously long hair, brightly colored detailed covers, all in the era of plaid and Doc Martens! They were just boldly out there and those JP lyrics just fit the aesthetic. A little silly but just a little. Five percent silly and "outdated", ninety five percent brilliant is how you could call early DT in everything.

Misunderstood is just between those two - a beautiful but simple and non-cryptical depiction of a real point in a storyline but without elaborating too much about the before and after. Definitely the best JP approach and lyric, we agree. Holy fuck they went all guns blazing on that album, him with that, MP with TGP, JLB with Disappear and Blind Faith... wow. But even not "hey wait a minute man" isn't worse than many other lyrics I've heard, from people who have routinely been writing them for more than 20 years, and for 20 minute epics, no less. The only reason why I sometimes tease JP for his lyrics is because there's really nothing else to tease him for, the man's a total wonder and he's the cornerstone of this band I love so much :lol

Controversial opinions... uhm... the rotating setlists were a bad idea? They should have picked Lars Ulrich? JP should have kept the 2005 image? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 24, 2013, 07:27:15 PM
^ JP does look better with short hair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on January 24, 2013, 07:38:56 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on January 24, 2013, 07:27:15 PM
^ JP does look better with short hair.

No.

Also the straps and crap he wore as part of his 'outfit' in 2005... jesus christ leave the ridiculous shit to Slipknot or SOAD or some shit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 24, 2013, 08:13:10 PM
Quote from: robwebster on January 24, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Honestly, my least favourite DT lyricist? Early-90s Petrucci. It's pleasant, but it's... just nonsense, isn't it? Even he couldn't tell you what Under a Glass Moon is about.

I’m just going to quote myself here.  From my Top 50 list:

Quote from: Jaffa on April 13, 2012, 07:34:37 AM
09. Under a Glass Moon
I’m a sucker for these types of lyrics.  I love the cryptic, the enigmatic, the shamelessly poetic.  Sometimes people throw the phrase ‘word salad’ around like it’s a bad thing, but for me, a word salad can be damn tasty.  This song’s lyrics are one hell of a word salad, drenched in bleu cheese dressing and served alongside a big juicy steak.  YUM. 

But that’s just me. 


Quote from: robwebster on January 24, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Misunderstood is, in my (possibly controversial, possibly not!) opinion, the band's finest lyrical moment.

Here I agree wholeheartedly.  I’m going to quote myself again, just because ironically, I talked about Misunderstood in the exact same post as the one I just quoted about UaGM:

Quote from: Jaffa on April 13, 2012, 07:34:37 AM
10. Misunderstood
Rounding out my top ten is Misunderstood, a song often cited for its experimental nature.  This song wouldn’t be as high on my list except that lyrically, it’s probably my very favorite Dream Theater song.

 :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
I&W is junk, along with Awake
Systematic Chaos is their best album, Forsaken the best song
Erotomania is their worst instrumental, SOC being the best
New Millenium and You Not Me are the best from FII
TDEN lyrics rocks
Repentance is the best song from the 12 step suite
SFAM doesnt catch my attention
Octavarium is better than ACOS
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 24, 2013, 09:46:48 PM
Welcome to the forums dude!

Some very controversial opinions indeed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 24, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
While I agree with two of those (Octavarium is better than ACOS, and TDEN's lyrics do rock), that's gotta be trolling. Just too many polar opposite opinions. And that says a lot coming from me of all people. :lol

Welcome to the forum though. No offense intended with my comments!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:58:09 PM
hahahaha maybe I was a little bit harsh

I&W is not really junk, but it doesnt click me, same thing with awake
Octaravarium WAS the song that got me into DT so I have that connection with it. ACOS is awesome BTW.
I would have chosen ACOS album as my favourite, but just for the song. The covers kill it IMO.
And TDEN lyrics... Idk, I find them somewhat nonsensical but awesome, lulz. But speaking about serious lyrics, BAI.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 25, 2013, 11:58:06 AM
Quote from: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM

Octavarium is better than ACOS

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 24, 2013, 07:08:48 PM
I actually just agree with all of this. I always say that JMX lyrics are precious because they map where he is as an artist at a certain point; if there were more of them, they would all be about the same thing. Except for the fact I don't think JP's much better now, because his strength is in the imagery, as opposed to telling a story - The Killing Hand and The Dark Eternal Night wouldn't be captivating in prose at all.

But when he depicts... I dunno, a measure of whether the lyric is good for me is whether I can proudly and unironically sing along to it without feeling silly, lots of bonus points if it's relatable. Even though UAGM and Voices are not about anything in particular, they are still so beautifully written I don't mind, and that's a rare occurrence for me. They are just overly sparkly, those words, and seemingly jumbled, just like their music, but so beautiful and beautifully put together, and beauty doesn't have to be about anything. They just fit into the early DT aesthetic as well - a group of thoughtful young men who all had such a visible spark and individuality to them, but they weren't dreadfully serious beyond their age or pompous, but just poetic and like flamboyant romantics I guess. Even the visuals - huge fluffy shirts, ridiculously long hair, brightly colored detailed covers, all in the era of plaid and Doc Martens! They were just boldly out there and those JP lyrics just fit the aesthetic. A little silly but just a little. Five percent silly and "outdated", ninety five percent brilliant is how you could call early DT in everything.

Misunderstood is just between those two - a beautiful but simple and non-cryptical depiction of a real point in a storyline but without elaborating too much about the before and after. Definitely the best JP approach and lyric, we agree. Holy fuck they went all guns blazing on that album, him with that, MP with TGP, JLB with Disappear and Blind Faith... wow. But even not "hey wait a minute man" isn't worse than many other lyrics I've heard, from people who have routinely been writing them for more than 20 years, and for 20 minute epics, no less. The only reason why I sometimes tease JP for his lyrics is because there's really nothing else to tease him for, the man's a total wonder and he's the cornerstone of this band I love so much :lol

Controversial opinions... uhm... the rotating setlists were a bad idea? They should have picked Lars Ulrich? JP should have kept the 2005 image? :lol

This post.






I love this post.






I love you. :heart







 :biggrin: Bonus points that I agree with these points, pun intended, but that post was so amazingly written. That's like rob level there. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
That's like rob level there. :tup
I don't think I've ever received a compliment on par with that :lol

Honestly no one can touch rob-level but we can try. Thank you :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 25, 2013, 06:32:11 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
That's like rob level there. :tup
I don't think I've ever received a compliment on par with that :lol

Honestly no one can touch rob-level but we can try. Thank you :heart

Shush, that's entirely roblevel! Just wait for him to came and award you the Webster Award For Outstanding Post Writings and Topic Awareness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:35:06 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 25, 2013, 06:32:11 PM
Shush, that's entirely roblevel! Just wait for him to came and award you the Webster Award For Outstanding Post Writings and Topic Awareness.
You're so dead :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on January 25, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:35:06 PM
Quote from: wasteland on January 25, 2013, 06:32:11 PM
Shush, that's entirely roblevel! Just wait for him to came and award you the Webster Award For Outstanding Post Writings and Topic Awareness.
You're so dead :rollin
No awards, but how would you like to become my official sidekick? It's a great job, we wear shit costumes as we swing from website to website, saving the internet from the tyranny of concise posts.

Wages are abysmal, but there are plenty of promotion opportunities.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:47:36 PM
Quote from: robwebster on January 25, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
No awards, but how would you like to become my official sidekick? It's a great job, we wear shit costumes as we swing from website to website, saving the internet from the tyranny of concise posts.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_7076_1354406123.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on January 25, 2013, 06:49:09 PM
It's settled. Your leotard is in the post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
:rollin You guys.

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
That's like rob level there. :tup
I don't think I've ever received a compliment on par with that :lol

Honestly no one can touch rob-level but we can try. Thank you :heart

If no-one can touch rob level, how does rob reach rob level? :o

I think rob is an alien. Not alien as in a banana in a grape factory, but alien like an unknown fruit from another planet in a grape factory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on January 25, 2013, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
:rollin You guys.

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on January 25, 2013, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
That's like rob level there. :tup
I don't think I've ever received a compliment on par with that :lol

Honestly no one can touch rob-level but we can try. Thank you :heart

If no-one can touch rob level, how does rob reach rob level? :o
No one can touch rob-level. I'm two people. My real names are Miranda and Clive. Hello!

No, honestly, it's a surprisingly tangible level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on January 26, 2013, 01:46:48 AM
I think you just need to be underslept and slightly drunk to get to the levels of posting awesomeness rob can attein while sober at 11AM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 26, 2013, 03:35:55 AM
Quote from: wasteland on January 26, 2013, 01:46:48 AM
I think you just need to be underslept and slightly drunk to get to the levels of posting awesomeness rob can attein while sober at 11AM.

Does anyone want to pitch money for a texas mickey and stay up all night on DTF? :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on January 26, 2013, 06:53:58 AM
Octavarium is a forgettable song/album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 26, 2013, 08:06:08 AM
You're a forgettable song/album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonnybaxy on January 26, 2013, 10:48:12 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 26, 2013, 08:06:08 AM
You're a forgettable song/album.

Oooohhh burn!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on January 26, 2013, 11:39:41 AM
Quote from: snapple on January 26, 2013, 06:53:58 AM
Octavarium is a forgettable song/album.
Agree about the album in general. The song is magic though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on January 26, 2013, 11:52:56 AM
The Jews are evi..... oh opinions on Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 26, 2013, 01:32:37 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on January 26, 2013, 11:52:56 AM
The Jews are evi..... oh opinions on Dream Theater.
You could maybe make a case for Portnoy, but Jordan's a sweetheart.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 13, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
Bumping this in case someone has controversial opinions to share.

I know I said I love TOWHTSTS already, but now that my list is over, I can say more precisely that it's a top 20 song for me. And since there's a lot of discussion on Six Degrees going on in the "DT in the studio again" thread, I once again have to say that in my opinion WDADU > SDOIT :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 13, 2013, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: ? on April 13, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
Bumping this in case someone has controversial opinions to share.

I know I said I love TOWHTSTS already, but now that my list is over, I can say more precisely that it's a top 20 song for me. And since there's a lot of discussion on Six Degrees going on in the "DT in the studio again" thread, I once again have to say that in my opinion WDADU > SDOIT :)
For me, it's the exact opposite. SDOIT is my favourite DT album where WDADU is my least favourite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 13, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
WDADU is DT's only truly awful album. SDOIT and WDADU are literally the complete opposite ends of DT's best/worst albums for me.


We're in the controversial opinion thread, so I'm covered for that for the 3 people that like WDADU. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 13, 2013, 10:27:17 AM
I know no-one will agree with me :lol It's not a huge difference in quality and Six Degrees has some absolutely amazing stuff, but I find it easier to sit through WDADU than to listen to 6D in full.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: champbassist on April 13, 2013, 12:00:51 PM
I find the complicated bombast of SFAM too difficult to penetrate. It's my least favorite DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: legenden1 on April 13, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
I have always thought it was incredible that You not me gets so much hate. I think it´s one of the best songs on FII and easily better than songs like Ytse jam, Blind faith, Just let me breathe, Dance of Eternity, The count of Tuscany and especially better than the demo version You or me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SuperTaco on April 13, 2013, 12:48:00 PM
WDADU is my favorite album.
Octavarium is my favorite song.
FII is my least favorite album.
I think Prophets Of War is a great song.
Other than Repentance and TMOLS being too long, I think SC is a good album.
I probably like DT instrumentals more than most people. I would put Hell's Kitchen and SOC in my top 20.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on April 13, 2013, 01:07:48 PM
A Rite of Passage is a good song and would be somewhere in my top 40.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 13, 2013, 05:39:33 PM
Elements Of Persuasions vocals are better than both SC and BC&SL. Plus, EoP's guitar playing is much more inspiring and creative than both SC and BC&SL or maybe even Octavarium. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on April 13, 2013, 06:44:33 PM
Quote from: legenden1 on April 13, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
I have always thought it was incredible that You not me gets so much hate. I think it´s one of the best songs on FII and easily better than songs like Ytse jam, Blind faith, Just let me breathe, Dance of Eternity, The count of Tuscany and especially better than the demo version You or me.

You Not Me is a better song than any song on BC&SL, save Wither.

Yeah, go ahead, rape me, or whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 13, 2013, 07:55:29 PM
If you say Just Let Me Breathe or Burning My Soul instead of You Not Me I would gladly agree, save TCOT but like this: no way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 12:27:18 AM
Overture 1928 is by far the best DT instrumental.
Endless Sacrifice is a Top 5 song.
SDV is the best song on Awake. (Although the Mirror comes close).


Quote from: ? on April 13, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
Bumping this in case someone has controversial opinions to share.

I know I said I love TOWHTSTS already, but now that my list is over, I can say more precisely that it's a top 20 song for me. And since there's a lot of discussion on Six Degrees going on in the "DT in the studio again" thread, I once again have to say that in my opinion WDADU > SDOIT :)

SFAM > TOT > Awake > ADTOE > 8VM > SDOIT :)

SDOIT is not bad,  but not amazing either. IMO. ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 14, 2013, 12:30:59 AM
SFAM Alternate mix > Release mix
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 12:43:53 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 13, 2013, 05:39:33 PM
Elements Of Persuasions vocals are better than both SC and BC&SL. Plus, EoP's guitar playing is much more inspiring and creative than both SC and BC&SL or maybe even Octavarium. 

I Love EoP, and I love the gritty vocals, but they're really pitchy. JLB's vocals always sound really rough to me outside of DT projects, like he can't quite control his voice when he's given complete freedom to let loose. SC and BCASL both have better vocals imo. ITPOE and ANTR are both good examples of JLB singing controlled and melodic gritty vocals better than EoP.
And the guitar playing on EoP is just generic riffing in B, while SC and especially BCASL have some of JP's best guitar work. EoP does have some pretty good solos, but the keyboard solos are usually better. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 14, 2013, 01:09:11 AM
Quote from: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
Octavarium is better than ACOS

I'm definitely on board this train.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 02:27:42 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 14, 2013, 01:09:11 AM
Quote from: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
Octavarium is better than ACOS

I'm definitely on board this train.
Agreed
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 02:45:09 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 12:27:18 AM
SDV is the best song on Awake.
:tup

All this love for Octavarium makes it seem like ACOS > 8V is a controversial opinion :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 14, 2013, 02:55:14 AM
Quote from: ? on April 13, 2013, 10:27:17 AM
I know no-one will agree with me :lol It's not a huge difference in quality and Six Degrees has some absolutely amazing stuff, but I find it easier to sit through WDADU than to listen to 6D in full.

WDADU = no weak songs
SDOIT = Disappear has grown on me, but still it's only decent at best. SDOIT has enough good material for ~20 minutes, not for 42.

So yeah, I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 03:03:57 AM
I don't like LF&GA, but otherwise I completely agree with you! :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
No weak songs on WDADU? How can anyone say that with a straight face? :lol The best of WDADU doesn't even come close to the worst from SDOIT.
My controversial opinion is that WDADU should never have been released. It's an embarrassing album, especially when IaW could have made one of the best debut albums of all time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
No weak songs on WDADU? How can anyone say that with a straight face? :lol The best of WDADU doesn't even come close to the worst from SDOIT.
My controversial opinion is that WDADU should never have been released. It's an embarrassing album, especially when IaW could have made one of the best debut albums of all time.

Do you mean that they should have held those songs back instead of releasing them? Because there is no way in hell that they could have written IAW without the musical growth that they experienced in the WDADU era!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 03:19:33 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM
Do you mean that they should have held those songs back instead of releasing them? Because there is no way in hell that they could have written IAW without the musical growth that they experienced in the WDADU era!
This. Like it or not, WDADU was a necessary step towards I&W. And had they not released an album with Charlie, they wouldn't have realized that he wasn't the right singer for them and hired James after that. And even if they had started looking for a new singer, James was still the frontman for Winter Rose at the time and probably wouldn't have auditioned.

I think WDADU is really good for a first album and better than a lot of other debuts I've heard. Some of the songs have become classics, and the fact that DT played songs from this album more often than material from some other albums on the ADTOE tour says something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 14, 2013, 03:22:01 AM
Quote from: Elite on April 13, 2013, 06:44:33 PM
Quote from: legenden1 on April 13, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
I have always thought it was incredible that You not me gets so much hate. I think it´s one of the best songs on FII and easily better than songs like Ytse jam, Blind faith, Just let me breathe, Dance of Eternity, The count of Tuscany and especially better than the demo version You or me.

You Not Me is a better song than any song on BC&SL, save Wither.

Yeah, go ahead, rape me, or whatever.
You're dead.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
You Not Me is better than The Count? Explain.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 03:25:49 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
You Not Me is better than Blind Faith and The Count? Explain.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:35:57 AM
Quote from: ? on April 14, 2013, 03:25:49 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
You Not Me is better than Blind Faith and The Count? Explain.

Yes, of course. And also, how can it be better than the demo? ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 03:36:32 AM
Misunderstood and Blind Faith are BY FAR the weakest songs from SDOIT.

Misunderstood is a bottom 20 DT song.

Kill me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:06:42 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
No weak songs on WDADU? How can anyone say that with a straight face? :lol The best of WDADU doesn't even come close to the worst from SDOIT.
My controversial opinion is that WDADU should never have been released. It's an embarrassing album, especially when IaW could have made one of the best debut albums of all time.

Do you mean that they should have held those songs back instead of releasing them? Because there is no way in hell that they could have written IAW without the musical growth that they experienced in the WDADU era!

They should have just been like the Majesty demos, and not recorded for a proper studio album. Obviously you aren't born writing Metropolises, but that doesn't mean you have to release everything along the way while you learn. So yes, they should have held them back.

And being the first album is no excuse. A lot of bands release excellent albums for their first release. As they say, you have all the time in the world to write your first album. So many bands have released debut albums universally considered great, and DT's debut isn't even highly regarded among their own fanbase.
Then only a few years later they manage IaW, which is universally loved among the fans. What a huge difference those few years made!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:10:50 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.

Status Seeker, Light Fuse and Get Away, The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun and Only a Matter of Time are DT's absolute worst songs imo. Completely amateurish. The rest range from passable to good. I would not consider anything from that album close to great though. I'd say it is that bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:12:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:10:50 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.

Status Seeker, Light Fuse and Get Away, The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun and Only a Matter of Time are DT's absolute worst songs imo. Completely amateurish. The rest range from passable to good. I would not consider anything from that album close to great though. I'd say it is that bad.
Then I guess my opinion about WDADU is controversial ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 04:15:30 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.
I've been here for 3½ years and he has always disliked WDADU and the last few songs on Awake, so don't expect him to change his mind anytime soon! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:15:36 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:12:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:10:50 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.

Status Seeker, Light Fuse and Get Away, The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun and Only a Matter of Time are DT's absolute worst songs imo. Completely amateurish. The rest range from passable to good. I would not consider anything from that album close to great though. I'd say it is that bad.
Then I guess my opinion about WDADU is controversial ;D

We're in the controversial opinion thread, so that's what we're here for! Which is why I'm feeling a bit more open to being a bit more brutally honest about how I feel about the album. I don't think there's anything controversial about liking or disliking the album, but I think we're both comparing the extremes here, so some controversy from both ends perhaps? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
You should also consider that IAW would have hardly received an equivalent production / eingineering had the band come without the relative success that WDADU had been in 1989.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:19:28 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
You should also consider that IAW would have hardly received an equivalent production / eingineering had the band come without the relative success that WDADU had been in 1989.

I'd like to know by which relative measurement that WDADU was considered a success. How many copies did that sell before IaW was released?
Maybe having those recordings helped them secure the opportunity to record the IaW demos and get their record contract, but I'm not convinced they couldn't have done so otherwise either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2013, 04:28:22 AM
Why I have a hard time listening to WDADU is Charlie's vocals.  I can't get buy it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:30:44 AM
True, nothing is controversial here ;D

-TMOSL is great
-Status Seeker is catchy and good song
-song SDOIT is overrated
-Honor thy Father is great
-Repentance doesn't get praise it deserves
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 14, 2013, 04:43:34 AM
For those who are too lazy to check the first pages of this thread, here's a bunch of my controversial opinions:
Quote from: ? on December 18, 2012, 02:39:45 AM
-Octavarium and Six Degrees are the most overrated DT songs, I even have trouble calling the latter a song
-WDADU > Degrees-BC&SL era albums and FII
-ADTOE > Scenes
-The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun is one of the best DT songs ever
-Forsaken is actually good and probably the best song on SC
-Honor Thy Father is a good song
-Burning My Soul isn't half as bad as people say it is, it beats Anna Lee and New Millennium easily
Quote from: ? on December 18, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
A few more to my list:
-I find TSCO pretty overrated and cheesy
-Musically Disappear isn't that sad, only the piano intro is notably dark IMO
-I dislike Where Are You Now? with a passion, I'd rather listen to You Not Me, Never Enough or Prophets of War than that song (and that says something!)
-Status Seeker is great
-The Best of Times is too long and boring and the solo is overrated
Ok, maybe I wouldn't talk about TSCO that way nowadays, but I'm still surprised it's so popular, because I can't see what's so special about it. And I'm not saying Disappear isn't sad at all, but I've heard loads of darker and more melancholic songs, even by DT themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: farizfariz on April 14, 2013, 09:46:35 AM
May i join ?

That's my tiny bits.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on April 14, 2013, 09:52:22 AM
TCoT has a couple of cool parts but it's overall pretty terrible. It's basically a microcosm of BC&SL. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 14, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
No weak songs on WDADU? How can anyone say that with a straight face? :lol The best of WDADU doesn't even come close to the worst from SDOIT.
My controversial opinion is that WDADU should never have been released. It's an embarrassing album, especially when IaW could have made one of the best debut albums of all time.

Do you mean that they should have held those songs back instead of releasing them? Because there is no way in hell that they could have written IAW without the musical growth that they experienced in the WDADU era!

Exactly.  It's not like a chef makes a perfect meal on his first try out; sometimes you have to break a few eggs first.  And doing so enables you to grow and get more confident and do better the next time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 14, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 03:10:59 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 03:04:58 AM
No weak songs on WDADU? How can anyone say that with a straight face? :lol The best of WDADU doesn't even come close to the worst from SDOIT.
My controversial opinion is that WDADU should never have been released. It's an embarrassing album, especially when IaW could have made one of the best debut albums of all time.

Do you mean that they should have held those songs back instead of releasing them? Because there is no way in hell that they could have written IAW without the musical growth that they experienced in the WDADU era!

Exactly.  It's not like a chef makes a perfect meal on his first try out; sometimes you have to break a few eggs first.  And doing so enables you to grow and get more confident and do better the next time.

But a restaurant won't hire the chef who's just starting out to cook their good meals. The chef has to learn to make the meals, and then once he's good enough, he can work his way up, and only then is he good enough to cook for others.

I'm not suggesting the chef should instantly know how to cook a great meal, I'm just saying he shouldn't make strangers suffer his meals until he knows what he's doing. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:29:02 AM
But a restaurant won't hire the chef who's just starting out to cook their good meals. The chef has to learn to make the meals, and then once he's good enough, he can work his way up, and only then is he good enough to cook for others.

I'm not suggesting the chef should instantly know how to cook a great meal, I'm just saying he shouldn't make strangers suffer his meals until he knows what he's doing. :biggrin:

Let's use a different example: should a football player train alone in his courtyard until he gets to a first league level? Or should he rather join a minor team, prove his worth, fall, get back on his feet, improve, improve, improve until the first league team sees him fit to hire him? :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:29:02 AM
But a restaurant won't hire the chef who's just starting out to cook their good meals. The chef has to learn to make the meals, and then once he's good enough, he can work his way up, and only then is he good enough to cook for others.

I'm not suggesting the chef should instantly know how to cook a great meal, I'm just saying he shouldn't make strangers suffer his meals until he knows what he's doing. :biggrin:

Let's use a different example: should a football player train alone in his courtyard until he gets to a first league level? Or should he rather join a minor team, prove his worth, fall, get back on his feet, improve, improve, improve until the first league team sees him fit to hire him? :)

What would joining a minor team be in this analogy? Releasing an album on a small label like WDADU was?
The analogy doesn't work, because a football player can't practice a full game of football alone without teams, and his ability to improve is dependent on the skill of the players he's against/with.
That's not analogous, because DT can learn to write songs and improve without needing to release all of their stumbling blocks. They didn't release the Majesty demos as an album at the time, and yet they still got past that.
Getting WDADU released may have played a part in them getting the record contract (and maybe in getting with JLB), but releasing the album isn't what improved their songwriting skill. Just the band process of writing it is what improved their songwriting skill.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
Getting WDADU released may have played a part in them getting the record contract (and maybe in getting with JLB), but releasing the album isn't what improved their songwriting skill. Just the band process of writing it is what improved their songwriting skill.

That's what I meant. Without the first album released, the band would have gotten a label deal for IAW similar to that they received for WDADU, which means no real tour, no videos and marginal promotion, not to mention the flaws in the recording process and in the post-production.

Which is why I say that releasing what they felt was good material (they didn't release all the songs they had at the time, so they indeed had a choice) was a good move. As far as I remember they got good reactions from sector critics and were featured on a few magazines. This was more than enough to secure a far better deal for the making of Images And Words years later. So releasing an album that was rather well-received objectively had positive consequences on their later career, and pepared the soil for their breakthrough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 14, 2013, 11:05:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
Getting WDADU released may have played a part in them getting the record contract (and maybe in getting with JLB), but releasing the album isn't what improved their songwriting skill. Just the band process of writing it is what improved their songwriting skill.

That's what I meant. Without the first album released, the band would have gotten a label deal for IAW similar to that they received for WDADU, which means no real tour, no videos and marginal promotion, not to mention the flaws in the recording process and in the post-production.

Which is why I say that releasing what they felt was good material (they didn't release all the songs they had at the time, so they indeed had a choice) was a good move. As far as I remember they got good reactions from sector critics and were featured on a few magazines. This was more than enough to secure a far better deal for the making of Images And Words years later. So releasing an album that was rather well-received objectively had positive consequences on their later career, and pepared the soil for their breakthrough.

We're approaching it from slightly different angles.
I'm only talking musically here that I don't think DT should have released WDADU, because I feel it's just not good enough to have deserved a release (and the hypothetical scenarios were generally speaking).

Of course historically speaking, I couldn't just hop back in my Delorean time machine and erase WDADU from memory and expect their future from then to have turned out the same. Maybe they still would have gotten the big record deal, maybe they would have even been more successful, who knows, but it wouldn't have led down the exact path that has given us DT releasing IaW as we know it in 1992, Awake in 1994, FII in 1997, etc etc (considering how nothing WDADU was though, I think they would have been just fine in one form or another though)
Our present day situation is a product of everything that came before it, so WDADU is part of what brought us to this point, but I don't believe that validates it musically as a good album.


And believe me, it pains me knowing that once I get my flux capacitor working, that I couldn't go and erase WDADU from history. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on April 14, 2013, 01:07:39 PM
Can we all just agree that releasing WDADU is more like a game of badminton?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2013, 01:32:18 PM
No more clunker ballads.  FFH & BTS on ADTOE definitely lived up to their titles.  The only two songs that kept it from being a highly consistent album.  I skip them every time.  The album ends with a whimper on BTS, not a bang.  If they want to slow things down fine, but do it within a longer more progressive song.  The stand alone ballads are getting old.  I hope they do away with them on this next album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 01:52:39 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2013, 01:32:18 PM
No more clunker ballads.  FFH & BTS on ADTOE definitely lived up to their titles.  The only two songs that kept it from being a highly consistent album.  I skip them every time.  The album ends with a whimper on BTS, not a bang.  If they want to slow things down fine, but do it within a longer more progressive song.  The stand alone ballads are getting old.  I hope they do away with them on this next album.

I actually think BTS is one of the greatest songs on the record together with BITS and BAI.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 14, 2013, 02:34:33 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 01:52:39 PM
I actually think BTS is one of the greatest songs on the record together with BITS and BAI.
And you are right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2013, 02:35:12 PM
I agree with 2/3 of your post.  BITS & BAI are far better than BTS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 14, 2013, 02:50:17 PM
Better: yes maybe
Far better: no
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 14, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
Besides the production and Charlie not being the best vocalist, there really isn't much to complain about on WDADU. I think Blob is exaggerating for effect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on April 14, 2013, 03:08:09 PM
I find BAI to be amongst the weaker songs on ADToE, well at least not as good as BITS, LNF, OtBoA and FFH.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on April 14, 2013, 07:12:45 PM
BTS was a bit anti-climactic for a closer.  Not that a ballad can't wrap up and put a beautiful finishing touch to an album, but it has to be a "special" song.  See Rush "The Garden" for more details.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on April 14, 2013, 10:03:44 PM
Quote from: AngelBack on April 14, 2013, 07:12:45 PM
BTS was a bit anti-climactic for a closer.  Not that a ballad can't wrap up and put a beautiful finishing touch to an album, but it has to be a "special" song.  See Rush "The Garden" for more details.

I thought BTS was a great closer, and it's a nice refresher from having the epic moment be the ending to every album since SDOIT. Granted, all of those endings were awesome except maybe ITPOE pt. 2 which I felt lacked a good album ending.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 15, 2013, 02:24:31 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2013, 01:32:18 PM
No more clunker ballads.  FFH & BTS on ADTOE definitely lived up to their titles.  The only two songs that kept it from being a highly consistent album.  I skip them every time.  The album ends with a whimper on BTS, not a bang.  If they want to slow things down fine, but do it within a longer more progressive song.  The stand alone ballads are getting old.  I hope they do away with them on this next album.

THANK YOU. It's a fizzle ending. I don't mind FFH though. I think that one had some emotion to it, and was a nice song. Not as good as older stuff like Vacant or Disappear though.
I actually love the ballads, although I don't like their recent major key stuff from Octavarium onwards.


Quote from: Zook on April 14, 2013, 02:52:09 PM
Besides the production and Charlie not being the best vocalist, there really isn't much to complain about on WDADU. I think Blob is exaggerating for effect.

The badness of WDADU needs no embellishment or exaggerating. There is plenty to complain about on WDADU musically speaking, from the poorly thought out vocal phrasing that's impossible to sing effectively, to the amateurish melodies that are all over the place, to the inability to arrange a song for their instruments resulting in clashing instruments that sounds like complete mud. It is amateur on every single level, and it's a stain on DT's otherwise very strong discography.
I'm not saying it's a complete lost cause, but literally half of the album is irredeemably bad, and the other half is still flawed to the point of not being really worth listening to anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 15, 2013, 05:28:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2013, 04:10:50 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 14, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Come on, WDADU is not that bad. It's not fantastic album but IMO there is no bad songs.

Status Seeker, Light Fuse and Get Away, The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun and Only a Matter of Time are DT's absolute worst songs imo.

IMO, they are among the best. :biggrin: I didn't like LFAGA for some time, but last time I spun WDADU, I enjoyed it a lot.

Yeah, and:

Quote from: Onno on April 14, 2013, 03:22:01 AM
You Not Me is a better song than any song on BC&SL.

E:Sorry Onno, forgot FTFM  ;).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 15, 2013, 05:35:11 AM
That's not my quote!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 15, 2013, 06:56:35 AM
While YNM isn't as bad as everyone says (it's far too mediocre to warrant such hate), everything on BCASL is still miles better. Let's not get silly here!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 15, 2013, 08:06:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 15, 2013, 06:56:35 AM
Because YNM is as bad as everyone says (pretty listenable except for the chorus, which is garbage), everything on BCASL is still miles better. Let's not get silly here!
FTFM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on April 15, 2013, 08:10:06 AM
Yeah, even the worst song on BC&SL is miles better than YNM in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 15, 2013, 08:24:06 AM
I think I might prefer YNM to AROP...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on April 15, 2013, 09:01:14 AM
I'll take You Not Me over A Rite of Passage, The Shattered Fortress, or The Best of Times any day.

I often wonder if YNM would get anywhere near enough hate if people didn't know it was rewritten with an outside writer under orders from the interfering record company, or know of the existence of Your Or Me (though one of my controversial opinions is that YNM is better than YOM anyway). I think it still wouldn't be a universally loved song at all, but I don't think it would see quit as much hate as it gets, if not for that knowledge.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 15, 2013, 09:07:24 AM
Quote from: Bolsters on April 15, 2013, 09:01:14 AM
I often wonder if YNM would get anywhere near enough hate if people didn't know it was rewritten with an outside writer under orders from the interfering record company, or know of the existence of Your Or Me (though one of my controversial opinions is that YNM is better than YOM anyway). I think it still wouldn't be a universally loved song at all, but I don't think it would see quit as much hate as it gets, if not for that knowledge.

I think that's probably part of the hate for some people, although I couldn't care less about that, and the song is still not very good to me, so it would still be considered one of DT's lesser songs imo. But it's not completely terrible. There are still worse DT songs. I mean, there's always WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 09:13:55 AM
Isn't it funny how Rule number 12 is basically thrown out the window in this thread? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Big Hath on April 15, 2013, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 15, 2013, 02:24:31 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2013, 01:32:18 PM
No more clunker ballads.  FFH & BTS on ADTOE definitely lived up to their titles.  The only two songs that kept it from being a highly consistent album.  I skip them every time.  The album ends with a whimper on BTS, not a bang.  If they want to slow things down fine, but do it within a longer more progressive song.  The stand alone ballads are getting old.  I hope they do away with them on this next album.

THANK YOU. It's a fizzle ending. I don't mind FFH though. I think that one had some emotion to it, and was a nice song. Not as good as older stuff like Vacant or Disappear though.

I sort of agree on BTS.  But I am not a fan of Disappear at all.  I almost always skip that track or hit eject to put in disc 2 if I'm in the car.  And for me, about the only redeeming quality for Vacant is it's introduction to Stream of Consciousness.

If I'm listening to 6DOIT (disc 1) and TOT, it's because I want my face melted with awesome heaviness.  Those two tracks seem really out of place for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
I'd take You Not Me over Innocence Faded, The Great Debate and New Millennium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 15, 2013, 11:39:59 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
I'd take You Not Me over Innocence Faded
I'd take any guy over the guy who takes YNM over IF.


Bit of a joke BUT WHY. IF is the ultimate "young JLB is awesome" song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 15, 2013, 11:53:02 AM
Looks like YNM is experiencing an unexpected surge of popularity. I am not that fond of IF, but come on!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 15, 2013, 11:39:59 AM
Bit of a joke BUT WHY. IF is the ultimate "young JLB is awesome" song.

How's that? He takes his vocals further on many other songs on the album, not the least of which are Scarred and Voices. What makes IF the 'ultimate' in that department?

Also, I do like IF better than Erotomania. So on that note, I'd take YNM over Erotomania.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on April 15, 2013, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
I'd take You Not Me over Innocence Faded, The Great Debate and New Millennium.

I have never seen more fail in a single sentence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 15, 2013, 12:00:34 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:56:02 AM
What makes IF the 'ultimate' in that department?
It's not about how far they're taken, it's just his tone there, and the way that the whole vocaled-section of the song is completely built on him, and it just goes more and more spectacular, and then when the lyrics are over, that solo-section comes on, like it says "oh yeah and this is the awesome instrumental stuff we didn't cram in there because it would be overshadowed otherwise" :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 15, 2013, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
I'd take You Not Me over Innocence Faded, The Great Debate and New Millennium.
YNM is better than New Millennium, but TGD and IF - seriously?! :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:01:38 PM
This thread is just proof that every imaginable opinion is held by some fan out there.  I am waiting for the "I like You Not Me more than Metropolis" post from someone. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on April 15, 2013, 12:02:19 PM
I mean, You Not Me is better Metropolis, but that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:03:15 PM
Cute.  :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 15, 2013, 12:00:34 PM
It's not about how far they're taken, it's just his tone there, and the way that the whole vocaled-section of the song is completely built on him, and it just goes more and more spectacular, and then when the lyrics are over, that solo-section comes on, like it says "oh yeah and this is the awesome instrumental stuff we didn't cram in there because it would be overshadowed otherwise" :biggrin:

The whole reason IF lacks any kind of impact on me, is because honestly, to me it sounds almost like a straight up Rush song. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if I want to hear a Rush song, I'll listen to Rush.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
You not me = Misunderstood quality wise
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:11:01 PM
Innocence Faded doesn't sound like Rush.  At all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:14:46 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
You not me = Misunderstood quality wise

I don't know what that means, but Misunderstood is amazing.

Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:11:01 PM
Innocence Faded doesn't sound like Rush.  At all.

I think it does. Honestly, I think it sounds more "Rushy" than any other Dream Theater song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:16:01 PM
Rush fan for 22 years now, DT for 20, and I have never listened to Innocence Faded and thought, "This sounds like Rush."  I think you need new ears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:16:50 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:16:01 PM
Rush fan for 22 years now, DT for 20, and I have never listened to Innocence Faded and thought, "This sounds like Rush."  I think you need new ears.

Yeah, well the jerk store called, they're runnin' outa YOU!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:17:55 PM
What's the difference?  You're their all-time best seller.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:17:55 PM
What's the difference?  You're their all-time best seller.
Well, I had sex with your wife!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:19:44 PM
I love how confused non-Seinfeld fans have to be right now. :lol :lol :biggrin: :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:22:24 PM
 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on April 15, 2013, 12:30:48 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:17:55 PM
What's the difference?  You're their all-time best seller.
Well, I had sex with your wife!

His wife's in a coma...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Big Hath on April 15, 2013, 12:42:33 PM
Quote from: Podaar on April 15, 2013, 12:30:48 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2013, 12:17:55 PM
What's the difference?  You're their all-time best seller.
Well, I had sex with your wife!

His wife's in a coma...

oh geeeez, I'm rolling!!!   :rollin

that episode is so awesome
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:14:46 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
You not me = Misunderstood quality wise

I don't know what that means, but Misunderstood is amazing.

I wanted to say that IMO Misunderstood sucks as hard as YNM does  :smiley:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:45:52 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 12:14:46 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
You not me = Misunderstood quality wise

I don't know what that means, but Misunderstood is amazing.

I wanted to say that IMO Misunderstood sucks as hard as YNM does  :smiley:

Well, if you have a bunch of people talking about how YNM isn't that bad, or people like me who actually quite like it, you can understand how that statement can be a little confusing. I was like, "Sure, I guess... Does that mean he likes it or hates it?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 15, 2013, 12:47:38 PM
I realised that too after your statement. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on April 15, 2013, 01:05:01 PM
The 1993 version of ACOS is better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: Lolzeez on April 15, 2013, 01:05:01 PM
The 1993 version of ACOS is better.

I think some of the lyrics were definitely better. I mean, it just kills me every time MP repeats a word to force a rhyme:

"Look around, hear the sound, cherish your life while you're still around"

As opposed to the original,

"Look around, and hear the sound, another time like this can't be found"

Yeah, it's not quite as poetic, but it still gets the message across, and it doesn't freakin' repeat a word to make it rhyme!

Although to be fair, I do enjoy the lyrics in Another World better in the 1995 version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on April 15, 2013, 04:16:06 PM
^ Found rhymes with Around, doesn't it? I don't think he would've changed that part for that reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on April 15, 2013, 04:16:06 PM
^ Found rhymes with Around, doesn't it? I don't think he would've changed that part for that reason.

It does, but I just think the whole wording of that phrase, "another time like this can't be found" doesn't flow with the music as well as, "Cherish your life.."... Actually, that's the main problem with all the original lyrics that were changed, was that they just flowed really weird with the music. But still, rhyming the same word with itself is something bad rappers do, I think MP is better than that, ESPECIALLY if he already had something else.

But I might be one of the only ones who has a problem with this. Just like I have a problem with him rhyming "Open" three times at the end of Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on April 16, 2013, 12:34:09 AM
Quote from: farizfariz on April 14, 2013, 09:46:35 AM
  • Derek Sherinian is better than JR.
I'm sorry, but your opinion is just.. wrong.











And that's my controversial opinion.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 16, 2013, 11:06:55 AM
I like Blind Faith's chorus. It's quite good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseJamittaja on April 16, 2013, 12:37:04 PM
I never found Metropolis pt. 2 so interesting and awesome than others. I think it's one of the weakest albums by DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 16, 2013, 12:51:56 PM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on April 16, 2013, 12:37:04 PM
I never found Metropolis pt. 2 so interesting and awesome than others. I think it's one of the weakest albums by DT.

The power of Christ compels you! The power of Christ compels you!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 16, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 11:06:55 AM
I like Blind Faith's chorus. It's quite good.
Exactly!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: Lolzeez on April 15, 2013, 01:05:01 PM
The 1993 version of ACOS is better.

Is that the mercy fuck version?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 01:48:56 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: Lolzeez on April 15, 2013, 01:05:01 PM
The 1993 version of ACOS is better.

Is that the mercy fuck version?

Nah that's the version on the New York '93 Official Boot with Kevin. The original version. I think that Mercy Fuck was only said in like one show during the SFAM tour?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 01:59:32 PM
I'd have to ask Wey, but I think it was done more than once.  I could be completely wrong, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 02:10:14 PM
He would know. I think it was done on the last show of the Metrolpolis 2000 (10/21/2000  London, England). That's all I know.


personally I think it should have been kept in in the first place :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 02:11:19 PM
Oh, I totally agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Weymolith on April 16, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
The "Mercy Fuck" ACOS was actually 6/9/1995 if memory serves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 16, 2013, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 15, 2013, 07:10:25 PM
rhyming the same word with itself is something bad rappers do, I think MP is better than that,
Why do you think he's better than that?  He's done it more than once.  I see no reason to think he's better than that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: Weymolith on April 16, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
The "Mercy Fuck" ACOS was actually 6/9/1995 if memory serves.

We are both right

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=298

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=589

:dangerwillrobinson:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on April 16, 2013, 02:38:52 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.
I'm with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 02:46:24 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: Weymolith on April 16, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
The "Mercy Fuck" ACOS was actually 6/9/1995 if memory serves.

We are both right

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=298 (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=298)

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=589 (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=589)

:dangerwillrobinson:

Aha!  So it WAS done more than once. :hat

Quote from: Lolzeez on April 16, 2013, 02:38:52 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.
I'm with you.
:(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 02:57:49 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 16, 2013, 02:46:24 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: Weymolith on April 16, 2013, 02:13:09 PM
The "Mercy Fuck" ACOS was actually 6/9/1995 if memory serves.

We are both right

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=298 (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=298)

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=589 (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=589)

:dangerwillrobinson:

Aha!  So it WAS done more than once. :hat




 Well in my dedence.. I remember reading about it in the tourography on MP.com (I used to study it extensively when bored) and I remember a note saying it was the ONLY time it was done. But I also know it was included in the outtakes from the Metropolis tour.


EVERYONE SURVIVED WINS!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Ah, yeah, I have both performances! I'm not sure it is controversial, but the mercy fuck would have been quite out of place in the lyrics, IMO.

Plus, I like BMUBMD.  :blush
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 03:03:06 PM
Quote from: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Plus, I like BMUBMD.  :blush

BMUBMD IS A GREAT SONG DON'T BE EMBARASSED

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:14:02 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 03:03:06 PM
Quote from: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Plus, I like BMUBMD.  :blush

BMUBMD IS A GREAT SONG DON'T BE EMBARASSED

Tell it to the serbian girl!  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 03:41:25 PM
No, DON'T tell it to me Jay :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 16, 2013, 03:49:37 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 03:41:25 PM
No, DON'T tell it to me Jay :D

I don't hear anything :JayOctavarium:


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Penguins can't hear a thing when they flap their wings frantically for the purpose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Burning My Soul is actually pretty decent, as is Just Let Me Breathe. Ok, all the goofy songs on Falling into Infinity are pretty decent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JoeG on April 16, 2013, 07:11:44 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Burning My Soul is actually pretty decent, as is Just Let Me Breathe. Ok, all the goofy songs on Falling into Infinity are pretty decent.

Agreed. Falling into Infinity is my #3 DT album. Anna Lee and You not Me are the only songs on it that are merely passable, everything else ranges from good to fantastic. Most of the B-sides are quite good too.

Other controversial opinions:

Sacrificed Sons is the best song on Octavarium.
The Best of Times is the best song on BC&SL and is a top 10 DT song.
The Glass Prison and the title track are two of the weaker points of SDOIT.
ACOS is massively overrated.
"The Reckoning" is one of the better parts of ITPOE, which is overall a very strong song.
Every Live at Budokan performance of a Train of Thought song is superior to the album version.
Only a Matter of Time is a top 20 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on April 16, 2013, 07:28:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 11:06:55 AM
I like Blind Faith's chorus. It's quite good.

It's not so much the chorus as the complete 180 jump into it. Even the pre-chorus doesn't really set it up right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 16, 2013, 07:33:40 PM
Sounds like a build up to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 16, 2013, 09:10:41 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 07:33:40 PM
Sounds like a build up to me.

I agree. I think there's a clear build-up there.
I can see the complaints about BF's chorus, as the pre-chorus and chorus were always one of the weaker parts of the song for me stopping me from getting into it, but I don't think the build-up is the problem there.

Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Burning My Soul is actually pretty decent, as is Just Let Me Breathe. Ok, all the goofy songs on Falling into Infinity are pretty decent.

I agree. BMS is cheesy, but I like it in a bonehead metal kind of way. And I really like JLMB too. The only songs I don't like on the album are YNM and TAMP, and I find both at least tolerable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 16, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
TAMP is one of the best on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 16, 2013, 09:25:48 PM
My problem with TAMP is mostly the vibe of it. KILLER guitar solo though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on April 16, 2013, 10:30:13 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 16, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
Burning My Soul is actually pretty decent, as is Just Let Me Breathe. Ok, all the goofy songs on Falling into Infinity are pretty decent.

I really like both those songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 16, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.

I totally agree.  Mercy fuck would have sounded stupid in the studio version.  THANK GOD it was changed to sympathy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 16, 2013, 10:59:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 16, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.

I totally agree.  Mercy fuck would have sounded stupid in the studio version.  THANK GOD it was changed to sympathy.
Yeah, this.
Quote from: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Plus, I like BMUBMD.  :blush
It is a good song, although my least favorite on ADTOE. I still can't believe it was beaten by Never Enough in the league... :facepalm: I also agree with those who don't mind Burning My Soul - it's not overtly great, but I think there are 5 weaker songs on FII. Oh, and the Blind Faith chorus rules!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseJamittaja on April 17, 2013, 12:59:23 AM
Burning My Soul's has one of DT's most badass intros ever. Blind Faith chorus is good in studio version but oh gosh, how awful CIM version is.......

Also,
I like much more BC&SL mixing than ADTOE's. Latest's mix is much too weak and cold.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 17, 2013, 01:18:13 AM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on April 17, 2013, 12:59:23 AM
Burning My Soul's has one of DT's most badass intros ever. Blind Faith chorus is good in studio version but oh gosh, how awful CIM version is.......

How true! I liked the original version of BMS with Hell's Kitchen inside, but without it... Not so much  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 17, 2013, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 16, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Plus, I like BMUBMD.  :blush

Get. Out.

 :biggrin:

Quote from: JoeG on April 16, 2013, 07:11:44 PM
Only a Matter of Time is a top 20 DT song.

The most definately, YES!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sylvinception on April 17, 2013, 03:30:55 AM
I definitely LOVE "You not me" on the FII album!!
The chorus is awesome!!

Do I have to get out ?? :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 17, 2013, 03:34:06 AM
Hey, this is the controversial thread! Nobody has to get our for a controversial opinion of his/hers!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sylvinception on April 17, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
Of course!! ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on April 17, 2013, 04:27:12 AM
A controversial opinion:........um.......there is no dvd!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 17, 2013, 04:31:48 AM
I think that's a controversial fact...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on April 17, 2013, 04:33:37 AM
"Thanks to Over The Edge for all the controversy!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on April 17, 2013, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: ? on April 17, 2013, 04:31:48 AM
I think that's a controversial fact...

I don't care.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Full Speed on April 17, 2013, 06:55:03 AM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on April 16, 2013, 12:37:04 PM
I never found Metropolis pt. 2 so interesting and awesome than others. I think it's one of the weakest albums by DT.

Same. It was the first DT album I got into but it didn't do a whole lot for me. When SDOIT came out is when I really got into DT and got into their past material (most of which I prefer to SFAM).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tuto on April 17, 2013, 02:11:45 PM
I absolutely LOVE New Millennium, and I mean FUCKING LOVE IT  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on April 17, 2013, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 16, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
I agree with the so-far nonexistent people who think "mercy fuck" is worse than "sympathy" there.

I totally agree.  Mercy fuck would have sounded stupid in the studio version.  THANK GOD it was changed to sympathy.
Yeah. Then I'd have a new least favourite DT lyric and it'd beat out:
"So I hurt your feelings
Well I'm really sorry
But I don't give a shit
NOOOOO"

Okay, maybe it wouldn't beat it. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on April 17, 2013, 06:16:32 PM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on April 17, 2013, 12:59:23 AM

Also,
I like much more BC&SL mixing than ADTOE's. Latest's mix is much too weak and cold.

That's exactly what I thought when I first listened to the album. The sound doesn't appeal to me at all, it's lifeless and flat. The strongest moment when it comes to mixing is when Jordan's electronic beat in Outcry comes in. Wallace mixed that in really loud, and it shows. It's an electronic sound, and it has more life to it than the entire record, sound-wise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 17, 2013, 07:16:37 PM
My controversial Opinion (theory) on DT:

  Had Portnoy not began writing his AA saga....which subsequently led to taking multiple albums to complete....he would have left DT years ago. I think that MP's desire to be a perfectionist with his music and ideas wouldn't allow him to leave that unfinished and that was a major contributor keeping him around. I have no evidence other than observation and reading interviews/stories... how he's handled himself, what's been said by he and DT members.....how it all went down......I just really think that he'd have left years ago had he not began that AA suite.



I know MP is around these parts every now and then so if he (you) happen to read.....not trying to be mean MP.....just a controversial opinion of mine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 17, 2013, 07:21:11 PM
I think technically, that would make it a controversial hypothesis. But very interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 17, 2013, 07:22:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 17, 2013, 07:21:11 PM
I think technically, that would make it a controversial hypothesis. But very interesting.
Dang it! :( :censored I'm always getting caught on technicalities.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on April 17, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Train of Thought is a flat out bad album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 17, 2013, 10:04:44 PM
Your face etc, etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on April 17, 2013, 11:31:16 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on April 17, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Train of Thought is a flat out badass album.

Fixed. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 17, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on April 17, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Train of Thought is a flat out bad album.

Almost true for me. There are a few redeemimg moments, though  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 18, 2013, 03:24:09 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on April 17, 2013, 11:31:16 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on April 17, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Train of Thought is a flat out badass album.

Fixed. :metal
:metal :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 07:19:12 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on April 18, 2013, 03:24:09 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on April 17, 2013, 11:31:16 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on April 17, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Train of Thought is a flat out badass album.

Fixed. :metal
:metal :metal

 :metal :metal  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on April 18, 2013, 08:47:16 AM
BMU BMD is my least fav song by DT. Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 18, 2013, 08:52:03 AM
That's not controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 18, 2013, 09:20:48 AM
I guess this is controversial depending on one's opinion, but IMO Train of Thought > Falling into Infinity
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 18, 2013, 09:36:51 AM
Quote from: ? on April 18, 2013, 09:20:48 AM
I guess this is controversial depending on one's opinion, but IMO Train of Thought > Falling into Infinity
:metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 18, 2013, 09:39:47 AM
Quote from: ? on April 18, 2013, 09:20:48 AM
I guess this is controversial depending on one's opinion, but IMO Train of Thought > Falling into Infinity
That's not controversial; at least not for me :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 18, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: ? on April 18, 2013, 09:20:48 AM
I guess this is controversial depending on one's opinion, but IMO Train of Thought > Falling into Infinity

I think both have their fair share of lovers and haters for that not to be too controversial. I personally prefer FII, but ToT is a solid metal album with some of my favourite DT songs. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 18, 2013, 09:52:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 18, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
I think both have their fair share of lovers and haters for that not to be too controversial.
Yeah, I thought it might be controversial at least for some people, because both albums seem to be loved and hated almost equally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on April 18, 2013, 10:48:48 AM
Quote from: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.

Hell to the fucking no. Train of Thought isn't bad, but Awake is a masterpiece.

To bring some controversy from my side:

1. Falling into Infinity > Scenes from a Memory
2. Everything > Octavarium
3. I actually don't mind You Not Me. It's better than New Millenium.
4. I enjoy Prophets of War from time to time.

The following aren't really controversial, but more like things that have recently changed and would definitely be noticed by people familiar with my taste:

1. The Glass Prison has grown on me quite a while. For a long time, it was too one-dimensional and samey throughout, but I'm really starting to enjoy the relentless assault that it offers. Still my least favourite on SDOIT, but that's my favourite album, so that doesn't really mean a lot.
2. Six Degrees is actually quite cool as a song, though the Overture still bores me to tears. After that, though, every second is pretty damn awesome.
3. Panic Attack is actually pretty fun and has recently revealed itself as one of the four saving graces on Octavarium. The rest ranges from decent but boring (the title track) to downright awful (the rest).
4. Afterlife has really climbed my ranking, while TKH has dropped. In fact, I'd consider it my favourite off of WDADU right now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 18, 2013, 10:54:39 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on April 18, 2013, 10:48:48 AM
Quote from: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.

Hell to the fucking no. Train of Thought isn't bad, but Awake is a masterpiece.
This. I also agree that YNM > NM and Afterlife is the best song on WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 18, 2013, 10:56:28 AM
Quote from: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.

Hell to the fucking yes. ITNOG alone >>>>> Awake.




Oh come on. Like you didn't all know I'd be agreeing with this one. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on April 18, 2013, 10:48:48 AM
Quote from: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.

Hell to the fucking no. Train of Thought isn't bad, but Awake is a masterpiece.


humm what? dont think so!  :hat

You know what?

Octavarium > Awake.

Even the tittle sucks. :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 18, 2013, 10:56:28 AM
Quote from: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
YOU KNOW WHAT?

ToT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Awake.

Hell to the fucking yes. ITNOG alone >>>>> Awake.




Oh come on. Like you didn't all know I'd be agreeing with this one. :lol

My all time DT fav song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is. And Octavarium on the whole, gives a much better (probably the best) representation of just what incredible range Dream Theater has in terms of music.

Also, the title track is better than ACOS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 18, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Awake>>>>>everything else
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 18, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Awake>>>>>everything else Metallica has ever done.

Fixed  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 18, 2013, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is. And Octavarium on the whole, gives a much better (probably the best) representation of just what incredible range Dream Theater has in terms of music.

Also, the title track is better than ACOS.

Amen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 18, 2013, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
Also, the title track is better than ACOS.

Ayup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 18, 2013, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is. And Octavarium on the whole, gives a much better (probably the best) representation of just what incredible range Dream Theater has in terms of music.

Also, the title track is better than ACOS.
:heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on April 18, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 18, 2013, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
Also, the title track is better than ACOS.

Ayup.

Mmmhmm.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on April 18, 2013, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: ? on April 16, 2013, 10:59:44 PM
Oh, and the Blind Faith chorus rules!
This! It's the first thing that really grabbed me while listening to the song the first few times. I think that, along with Jordan's solos, it's the highlight of the song. Definitely one of my favorite choruses ever and it never fails to make me spread my arms while singing it facing the ceiling. The live version is a different story, of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on April 18, 2013, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 18, 2013, 12:18:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
Also, the title track is better than ACOS.

Ayup.

I also agree! It's not by a WHOLE lot, but 8V definitely sparks more of an emotional reaction from me than ACOS does. ACOS is awesome though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on April 18, 2013, 08:05:13 PM
Quote from: tuto on April 17, 2013, 02:11:45 PM
I absolutely LOVE New Millennium, and I mean FUCKING LOVE IT  :metal

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 09:59:14 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on April 18, 2013, 08:05:13 PM
Quote from: tuto on April 17, 2013, 02:11:45 PM
I absolutely LOVE New Millennium, and I mean FUCKING LOVE IT  :metal

Agreed.

I don't. But I dunno, I think it has a big enough following not to consider that very controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 02:56:33 AM
Everything on Awake > ITNOG.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseJamittaja on April 19, 2013, 04:12:49 AM
Endless Sacrifice is my top5 DT songs. Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on April 19, 2013, 04:40:41 AM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on April 19, 2013, 04:12:49 AM
Endless Sacrifice is my top5 DT songs. Haters gonna hate.
I'm with you!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 19, 2013, 05:16:28 AM
Quote from: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 02:56:33 AM
Everything on Awake < ITNOG.

I agree  :biggrin:  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 19, 2013, 05:29:53 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 18, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Awake>>>>>everything else
This man knows what's up! :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 19, 2013, 05:50:46 AM
Quote from: ? on April 19, 2013, 05:29:53 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 18, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Awake>>>>>everything else
This man knows what's up! :tup
"Everything else" = "universe", yes.

I am just completely serious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:07:55 AM
Quote from: ? on April 19, 2013, 05:29:53 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on April 18, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
Awake>>>>>everything else
This man knows what's up! :tup

I can accept the > sign (I disagree, but not by far), but >>>>>>>> ? No way!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 19, 2013, 06:15:29 AM
It's just a more extreme way of saying that Awake is easily the best, which is something I wholeheartedly agree with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:28:59 AM
You know my opinion about it, I guess.

So, what are the reasons of those who hate Innocence Faded? Anyone here?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on April 19, 2013, 06:36:26 AM
Here's my controversial opinion -

Something is wrong in DT land.

If the Luna Park DVD is coming out in May (or anytime soon) we should have had a release date by now.

If the new album / tour routine is on schedule, we should have had the first European dates announced by now.

Nothing but silence from DT. Something is wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 19, 2013, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on April 19, 2013, 06:36:26 AM
Here's my controversial opinion -

Something is wrong in DT land.

If the Luna Park DVD is coming out in May (or anytime soon) we should have had a release date by now.

If the new album / tour routine is on schedule, we should have had the first European dates announced by now.

Nothing but silence from DT. Something is wrong.

Noup, just think about it.

Pre, production and post on new album
Pre on new tour.
Post on DVD.

That's a shit load of work to do... is pretty normal some silence while doing all this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 19, 2013, 09:20:35 AM
Quote from: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 02:56:33 AM
Everything on Awake > ITNOG.

Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lie, Scarred, and Space Dye Vest.

Not even exaggerating. I'll take YNM on repeat before any of those. As bad as it is, it's at least bearable.


COME AT ME BROS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is.
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on April 19, 2013, 09:33:43 AM
Blob, what would you consider to be DT's single worst song?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 19, 2013, 09:43:35 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is.
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.

What? Hef, go home, you're drunk... hahahahah.. i love this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 19, 2013, 09:55:53 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 19, 2013, 09:20:35 AM
Quote from: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 02:56:33 AM
Everything on Awake > ITNOG.

Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lie, Scarred, and Space Dye Vest.

Not even exaggerating. I'll take YNM on repeat before any of those. As bad as it is, it's at least bearable.


COME AT ME BROS.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
I think both ToT and Octavarium are much more consistent albums than Awake is.
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.


These posts shock me  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 19, 2013, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.
Me neither.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 19, 2013, 10:04:32 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on April 19, 2013, 09:33:43 AM
Blob, what would you consider to be DT's single worst song?

Below a certain threshold, it's hard for me to compare them and choose one over another, because I simply can't even listen to them. There are very few DT songs I put in that category though, as I don't mind a lot of the songs that others dislike, and for me DT have the highest hit ratio of any band I listen to.

The legitimate contenders for what I consider DT's worst song would include Status Seeker, Light Fuse and Get Away, The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun, Scarred, and Only a Matter of Time. But in all honesty, I'd probably place Only a Matter of Time slightly above them, because it's listenable despite being a flawed song from start to finish, and has some good ideas in there, and maybe Scarred too, because it has a decent enough intro up until the heavy section, or maybe even up till the chorus (which I honestly consider the worst "chorus" DT has ever written, excluding a couple of WDADU songs where I don't even know how the chorus goes).
I really do consider Scarred to be DT's worst song this side of WDADU. The only other song I'd consider a contender is Never Enough, but there's much more of that song I can enjoy, and when Octavarium came out, I listened to it. There are a few other DT songs that I consider to be on the bad side, but can still listen to occasionally and enjoy.

There are only a very small number of other DT songs I'd say I strongly dislike, but I don't put them anywhere near the bottom ones just mentioned. There are other songs I'm notorious for hating on, but my issues with those are much more minor compared to the ones mentioned, even songs like Lie or SDV. Lie is one of those songs that I can occasionally enjoy, and I'm more indifferent to SDV than anything else.

I hope that post doesn't come across as too "bashy", because I'm just trying to be clear with how I feel about certain songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:28:59 AM
So, what are the reasons of those who hate Innocence Faded? Anyone here?

No one hates Innocence Faded!

*sticks fingers in ears and sings Twinkle Twinkle little star very loud*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on April 19, 2013, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:28:59 AM
So, what are the reasons of those who hate Innocence Faded? Anyone here?

No one hates Innocence Faded!

*sticks fingers in ears and sings Twinkle Twinkle little star very loud*
:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 19, 2013, 11:45:36 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:28:59 AM
So, what are the reasons of those who hate Innocence Faded? Anyone here?
I don't hate it. in the grand scheme of music, I quite like it, but I still think that it, along with Lifting Shadows Off a Dream, are two of the least interesting songs on Awake, and among some of the least interesting songs in DT's entire catalog. There's nothing wrong with having a straight forward shorter song, lord knows DT's had its share, but IF just feels so... Wishy washy. I don't know. I'm not going to dissect it, to try and figure out specifically what I don't like about it. But as far as DT goes, the song has some nice melodies and that's it, everything else about it is a tad dull.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 19, 2013, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: Ruba on April 19, 2013, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 06:28:59 AM
So, what are the reasons of those who hate Innocence Faded? Anyone here?

No one hates Innocence Faded!

*sticks fingers in ears and sings Twinkle Twinkle little star very loud*

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 19, 2013, 12:34:27 PM
I still don't get Blob's hate for Scarred. It's heavy, intense, sung kickassedly by JLB, has a beautiful melodic section in the middle, a kick ass solo and outro. And LSOAD is a beautiful ballad. Space Dye Vest is just OK, but the other songs are amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 03:25:58 PM
I've given up understanding the hatred for Scarred. I will just never get it, and I was explained the reason for it by prominent haters (blob, zy) multiple times.  :millahhhh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 19, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
I forgot to mention that it's fun as hell to sing along to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 19, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 19, 2013, 07:13:37 PM
I forgot to mention that it's fun as hell to sing along to.

That it is. And JLB agrees.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 20, 2013, 01:40:44 AM
Yeah! He recently stated that it is his favourite song to sing on stage!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RandalGraves on April 20, 2013, 06:31:15 AM
I'm happy Storm won't be doing the new album cover.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 20, 2013, 06:33:28 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 19, 2013, 03:25:58 PM
I've given up understanding the hatred for Scarred. I will just never get it, and I was explained the reason for it by prominent haters (blob, zy) multiple times.  :millahhhh
Same here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 20, 2013, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: RandalGraves on April 20, 2013, 06:31:15 AM
I'm happy Storm won't be doing the new album cover.
(https://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn431/Moriel_Alcaril/reaction/tumblr_m9jd48jgS51qjivys_zps0afd9595.png)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 20, 2013, 06:46:47 AM
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done the new cover anyway...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 20, 2013, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: Zook on April 19, 2013, 12:34:27 PM
I still don't get Blob's hate for Scarred. It's heavy, intense, sung kickassedly by JLB, has a beautiful melodic section in the middle, a kick ass solo and outro. And LSOAD is a beautiful ballad. Space Dye Vest is just OK, but the other songs are amazing.

The chorus melody is so poor that it sounds like they just randomly went up and down the scale to write it, and the first phrase ends on a complete nowhere note that doesn't do anything. It's completely careless. And those church bells sound so misplaced and confused. It makes me wince every time I attempt to listen to it, like nails on a chalkboard to me.
And the outro is out of nowhere tacked on, and completely unnecessary, and tries to be all proggy for the sake of it, and loses all sense of melody and rhythm in the process.

I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces.


Quote from: ? on April 20, 2013, 06:46:47 AM
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done the new cover anyway...

I agree. I really don't see them switching from Hugh Syme. He just recently did the Luna Park cover, so I'd be pretty sure he'll do DT12 too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 20, 2013, 07:06:39 AM
I really like it that people hate Scarred because every time I see someone criticizing it, I feel the need to play it again and then I rock out like nobody's business :metal :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 20, 2013, 07:12:28 AM
Yes, it's really a good time to give it a spin and loving it :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 20, 2013, 07:15:16 AM
"it calms me to know that I WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON'T" :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 20, 2013, 07:20:34 AM
Quote from: RandalGraves on April 20, 2013, 06:31:15 AM
I'm happy Storm won't be doing the new album cover.

What!?!?! I always thought Storm would do an awesome cover if his was given half a chance.

I'm so tired of Hugh Syme's work on DT albums, it's so uninspired and comes off really lazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 20, 2013, 02:37:06 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 20, 2013, 07:03:25 AM
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces.
.

Even though your opinion is wrong I do not agree with you... this is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2013, 06:23:46 PM
Although a lot of people actually like scarred, so having a ton of people defending it isn't exactly controversial.

It took a long, long, long time for Scarred to grow on me, so I can understand why some people don't like it. And why some do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 21, 2013, 08:03:45 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 20, 2013, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: RandalGraves on April 20, 2013, 06:31:15 AM
I'm happy Storm won't be doing the new album cover.
(https://i322.photobucket.com/albums/nn431/Moriel_Alcaril/reaction/tumblr_m9jd48jgS51qjivys_zps0afd9595.png)

No shit.

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 20, 2013, 07:15:16 AM
"it calms me to know that I WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON'T" :heart

:hearts:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nekov on April 22, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
Quote from: ? on April 19, 2013, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.
Me neither.

I beg to differ. No matter how many times you listen to it, Octavarium will always suck. That's consistent
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 22, 2013, 07:41:28 AM
Quote from: Nekov on April 22, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
Quote from: ? on April 19, 2013, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.
Me neither.

I beg to differ. No matter how many times you listen to it, Octavarium will always suck. That's consistent
:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 22, 2013, 07:45:21 AM
Quote from: Nekov on April 22, 2013, 07:25:49 AM
Quote from: ? on April 19, 2013, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:50 AM
Regardless of comparisons to other albums, I don't see anything consistent about Octavarium.
Me neither.

I beg to differ. No matter how many times you listen to it, Octavarium will always suck. That's consistent

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/trollavarium.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: eric42434224 on April 22, 2013, 11:19:08 AM
I have always wondered what DT would have been like with a different style singer.
Maybe a singer that can play some rhythm guitar as well to fill in certain areas.
I have always felt that JLB and his style, even though he is great at what he does, has been a factor in their commercial success.
I had a dream Chris Cornell joined DT.  It was a good dream.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 23, 2013, 12:22:46 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 22, 2013, 07:45:21 AM
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/trollavarium.jpg)

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
(Most likely the most controversial post in the thread)

Octavarium is their best album (title track is their best song)

Stream of Consciousness is their best instrumental

BC&SL is better than SDOIT

The unreleased album will be better than the greatness of ADToE, BC&SL, and SC combined

The Root of All Evil is the best of the 12 step suite

Luna Park will be their greatest live DVD

Under A Glass Moon is the best song off I&W

FII is more listenable than ToT

The Killing Hand and Only A Matter of Time are amazing.

Hell's Kitchen is probably their 3rd-best instrumental. (dance of eternity is second)

6:00 is the best song on Awake

Hell's Kitchen/Trial of Tears are the best songs off FII

Breaking All Illusions is the best song off ADToE (and has the second most time signature changes in a DT song)

The unreleased album's instrumental will be the best one they've created

The unreleased album will be the best they've ever created
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 24, 2013, 08:07:18 PM
Claiming controversial opinions on things that haven't happened yet is kind of silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:12:32 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 24, 2013, 08:07:18 PM
Claiming controversial opinions on things that haven't happened yet is kind of silly.

Controversial prediction?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 24, 2013, 08:22:41 PM
It still doesn't make much sense. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 24, 2013, 10:28:00 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 24, 2013, 08:07:18 PM
Claiming controversial opinions on things that haven't happened yet is kind of silly.

Yeah, it's not really an "opinion" as such when it's not based on something.

Not to mention that the last prediction would be pretty much impossible anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 25, 2013, 12:38:53 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
Stream of Consciousness is their best instrumental

FII is more listenable than ToT

The Killing Hand and Only A Matter of Time are amazing.

These ones are true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 25, 2013, 04:08:16 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
The Root of All Evil is the best of the 12 step suite

The Killing Hand and Only A Matter of Time are amazing.

Hell's Kitchen/Trial of Tears are the best songs off FII
I would add Lines in the Sand to the list of best songs on FII, but otherwise I agree with these points.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 25, 2013, 04:45:48 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
Stream of Consciousness is their best instrumental
I would agree if Overture 1928 didn't exist.


Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
BC&SL is better than SDOIT
As a whole, possibly yes. As for individual songs, both have some amazing stuff, both have some pretty shitty stuff. So I'm not sure.


Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
Breaking All Illusions is the best song off ADToE
Tied with BITS, but yes.


Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
6:00 is the best song on Awake
I wouldn't say #1, but definitely one of the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 25, 2013, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM

BC&SL is better than SDOIT


I think if you started a poll with those two albums to see which is better, SDOIT would win by a landslide.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 25, 2013, 11:45:45 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM

Under A Glass Moon is the best song off I&W

6:00 is the best song on Awake


Why is Under a Glass Moon OFF Images and Words, but 6:00 is ON Awake? ??? ???



 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 25, 2013, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 25, 2013, 11:35:27 AM
Quote from: Lucien on April 24, 2013, 08:01:01 PM

BC&SL is better than SDOIT


I think if you started a poll with those two albums to see which is better, SDOIT would win by a landslide.
Yeah - ADTOE got 90% of the votes in the "ADTOE vs BC&SL" poll, so I bet Six Degrees would do just as well, if not better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 11:54:31 AM
Because 6:00 is ON ON ON like a bad bad thing :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
Here's two new ones from me:

SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.

Oh, and the orgasm samples in Home just kill it for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 25, 2013, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
Here's two new ones from me:

SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.

Oh, and the orgasm samples in Home just kill it for me.

SFAM is my second favourite DT album, and I don't find either of these too controversial.

But I love corn. Well, musical corn, not regular corn. It's like wtf, why am I seeing you again? Don't you even digest?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:22:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 25, 2013, 12:20:08 PM
But I love corn. Well, musical corn, not regular corn. It's like wtf, why am I seeing you again? Don't you even digest?

Right?! :o ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 25, 2013, 01:11:09 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.
Agreed, although it's my 4th favorite album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.

Enumerate, please!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on April 25, 2013, 03:30:42 PM
Quote from: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.

Enumerate, please!


Ragtime = Corny/Cheesy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
It used to be one of my favourite moments in the DT catalogue in my first years of fandom" :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on April 25, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
Quote from: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:17:28 PM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on April 25, 2013, 12:11:48 PM
SFAM, while it has some really good songs, is REALLY corny in spots.

Enumerate, please!
Through Her Eyes, especially because of the drum machine. It almost sounds like soft porn music, which is kinda appropriate I guess, but I digress. Theresa's contribution also adds to the cheesiness. Same goes for TSCO, which I really like, in spite of it being one of the most kitschy DT songs ever, besides Hollow Years.

Quote from: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
It used to be one of my favourite moments in the DT catalogue in my first years of fandom" :D
Same here, it actually was my ringtone for a year.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 03:38:20 PM
Nah, TSCO is just a great song. And there's nothing wrong wrong with Theresa's contribution.  :laugh: YOU HEARD MY CONTRO-CONTROVERSIAL OPINION
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on April 25, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
It almost sounds like soft porn music
Could anyone please be so kind to explain me some examples of porn music since I really don't know how it sounds like and I get comments like that on my music all the time :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Aythesryche on April 25, 2013, 04:30:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on April 25, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
It almost sounds like soft porn music
Could anyone please be so kind to explain me some examples of porn music since I really don't know how it sounds like and I get comments like that on my music all the time :lol

The only porn music you'll ever need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1kApnsayeQ&sns=em
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
Quote from: Aythesryche on April 25, 2013, 04:30:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on April 25, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
It almost sounds like soft porn music
Could anyone please be so kind to explain me some examples of porn music since I really don't know how it sounds like and I get comments like that on my music all the time :lol

The only porn music you'll ever need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1kApnsayeQ&sns=em
Thank you, this will entertain me. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 25, 2013, 04:39:03 PM
Quote from: Aythesryche on April 25, 2013, 04:30:12 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on April 25, 2013, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on April 25, 2013, 03:35:40 PM
It almost sounds like soft porn music
Could anyone please be so kind to explain me some examples of porn music since I really don't know how it sounds like and I get comments like that on my music all the time :lol

The only porn music you'll ever need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1kApnsayeQ&sns=em

This comment just won the entire Galaxy  :lol

PascimanArc23 6 days ago

Dude!
This girl's pretty hot
take her to the spot
lifted
her skit
found out she's a...


And the music itself is looped so well that it's completely hypnotizing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Aythesryche on April 25, 2013, 05:00:00 PM
There is a 10 hour version on there if you're feeling especially romantic. If you find yourself in need of a lover, all you need to do is drive around until you spot someone, blast this loop, roll down the window, suck in your cheeks Yngwie Malmsteen style and just sharply look at the person and he/she will just get in the car. Works eeeeevery time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 25, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
And if you really want to swoon them, play this:

https://soundcloud.com/krotchraut/epic-majesty-guy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Aythesryche on April 25, 2013, 07:06:27 PM
Yeeeeeeeeees! I had no idea those two would blend so well. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 26, 2013, 03:10:48 AM
Daaaaaaaaaaaim.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 26, 2013, 03:20:09 AM
That's so... hypnotic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JRuivo on April 26, 2013, 04:26:32 AM
There are several DT songs that I don't really care about, such as Space Dye Vest, Finally Free, Sacrificed Sons, The Great Debate, Forsaken, Endless Sacrifice and all of the songs on WDADU (except maybe for Ytse Jam). I simply don't feel the need to listen to any of those songs, that are among the worst (or least good  ::) ) DT songs. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on April 26, 2013, 05:44:46 AM
Quote from: JRuivo on April 26, 2013, 04:26:32 AM
There are several DT songs that I don't really care about, such as Space Dye Vest, Finally Free, Sacrificed Sons, The Great Debate, Forsaken, Endless Sacrifice and all of the songs on WDADU (except maybe for Ytse Jam). I simply don't feel the need to listen to any of those songs, that are among the worst (or least good  ::) ) DT songs.
What. The. Hell.

Speaking about Endless Sacrifice: it's my #1 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on April 26, 2013, 09:18:25 AM
Quote from: JRuivo on April 26, 2013, 04:26:32 AM
There are several DT songs that I don't really care about, such as Space Dye Vest, Finally Free, Sacrificed Sons, The Great Debate, Forsaken, Endless Sacrifice and all of the songs on WDADU (except maybe for Ytse Jam). I simply don't feel the need to listen to any of those songs, that are among the worst (or least good  ::) ) DT songs.

I used to pretty much feel the same way about The Great Debate, it took a long time to grow on me. Sometimes I just fast forward the first few minutes when I want to listen to it, but then again I guess that doesn't really say anything good about the song.  :lol The chorus is awesome though, I think James' vocals are the highlight of the song  :tup Portnoy does a decent Danny Carey impression as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 26, 2013, 10:04:16 AM
Quote from: Rattlehead on April 26, 2013, 09:18:25 AM
I used to pretty much feel the same way about The Great Debate, it took a long time to grow on me. Sometimes I just fast forward the first few minutes when I want to listen to it, but then again I guess that doesn't really say anything good about the song.  :lol The chorus is awesome though, I think James' vocals are the highlight of the song  :tup Portnoy does a decent Danny Carey impression as well.

It's a good song, but even if it weren't for the lengthy intro, I'd still consider it the weakest track on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 26, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
It's the second strongest for me, and the lenghty intro is an absolute album highlight  :omg:

Is this something highly controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 26, 2013, 10:17:00 AM
Quote from: wasteland on April 26, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
It's the second strongest for me, and the lenghty intro is an absolute album highlight  :omg:

Is this something highly controversial?

That is a tough one. I heard plenty of people who'd agree with you. But personally, I think they're crazy! Victims of inner turbulence, clearly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cedar redaC on April 26, 2013, 11:45:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxopViU98Xo
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on April 26, 2013, 12:43:01 PM
Quote from: wasteland on April 26, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
It's the second strongest for me, and the lenghty intro is an absolute album highlight  :omg:

Is this something highly controversial?

I wouldn't go as far as saying an album highlight, but when I'm in the mood for it, the intro is awesome and sets the song up very nicely. Sometimes I don't have the patience to sit through it though  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JRuivo on April 27, 2013, 11:07:20 AM
Quote from: Rattlehead on April 26, 2013, 09:18:25 AM
Quote from: JRuivo on April 26, 2013, 04:26:32 AM
There are several DT songs that I don't really care about, such as Space Dye Vest, Finally Free, Sacrificed Sons, The Great Debate, Forsaken, Endless Sacrifice and all of the songs on WDADU (except maybe for Ytse Jam). I simply don't feel the need to listen to any of those songs, that are among the worst (or least good  ::) ) DT songs.

I used to pretty much feel the same way about The Great Debate, it took a long time to grow on me. Sometimes I just fast forward the first few minutes when I want to listen to it, but then again I guess that doesn't really say anything good about the song.  :lol The chorus is awesome though, I think James' vocals are the highlight of the song  :tup Portnoy does a decent Danny Carey impression as well.

I like it when I'm listening to the cd as a whole, but that's just one of those songs I wouldn't play for the sole purpose of jamming to it like I would with the other DT songs. Strangely enough, Awake, SFAM and SDOIT are my top#3 DT albums, and I included one song of each on the "meh" songs list  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 27, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
Hey Flexo, where's your goatee?! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JRuivo on April 27, 2013, 11:54:51 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 27, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
Hey Flexo, where's your goatee?! :lol

I am the true Bender!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 27, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
 :lol

Looks at post count.  Then at a hot Robot DTF member.........
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on April 28, 2013, 04:32:41 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 27, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
Hey Flexo, where's your goatee?! :lol

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 03:21:07 PM
This is probably a horrible way to have a first post, but here are my apparently very controversial opinions, which will probably become worse as I get older and nostalgia sets in:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 07, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 03:21:07 PM
This is probably a horrible way to have a first post, but here are my apparently very controversial opinions, which will probably become worse as I get older and nostalgia sets in:
    I love Black Clouds and Silver Linings
    A Dramatic Turn of Events has to be one of my least favorite albums
    Petrucci is way too loud live, at least in my experience (the two shows that make me believe this are the Palladium show on July 10, 2010, and the Paramount show on July 19, 2012)
    Jordan's solos, especially in more recent years, need more rhyme and reason. They are starting to sound very random and noisy
    Most Portnoy hate is unwarranted
Dominici completely ruins When Dream and Day Unite. It's a damn shame too, because the music that I've been able to stomach is quite awesome.MOST of Awake bores me
John Petrucci can't sing whatsoever. (See: Sacrificed Sons on Score)
[/list]


WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :JayOctavarium:

You and I are now mortal enemies...










jk
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 07, 2013, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 03:21:07 PM
This is probably a horrible way to have a first post, but here are my apparently very controversial opinions, which will probably become worse as I get older and nostalgia sets in:
    I love Black Clouds and Silver Linings
    A Dramatic Turn of Events has to be one of my least favorite albums
    Petrucci is way too loud live, at least in my experience (the two shows that make me believe this are the Palladium show on July 10, 2010, and the Paramount show on July 19, 2012)
    Jordan's solos, especially in more recent years, need more rhyme and reason. They are starting to sound very random and noisy
    Most Portnoy hate is unwarranted
    Dominici completely ruins When Dream and Day Unite. It's a damn shame too, because the music that I've been able to stomach is quite awesome.
    MOST of Awake bores me
    John Petrucci can't sing whatsoever. (See: Sacrificed Sons on Score)

I love Black Clouds too. Of course, I also love ADTOE....

Dominici's pretty good. He's no LaBrie, but overall his performance was quite good, in my opinion.

Awake is awesome. Though not at first. It takes a while to open up.

I see what you're saying about Jordan's solos, but I still like 'em.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on May 07, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
Lol John definitely cannot sing (Wither JP vocal demo had AUTOTUNING.  :facepalm:)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Well, isn't the main idea of a vocal demo to be a guideline to tell James what to do? (Except for Best of Times, obviously, where the vocal demo served a second important purpose.) How can James know what note to sing (well, besides sheet music and common sense) if John is singing it wrong?
But then there's the question of why RRR decided to release the vocal demo. Wither wasn't even single worthy to begin with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 07, 2013, 04:42:30 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 07, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
Lol John definitely cannot sing (Wither JP vocal demo had AUTOTUNING.  :facepalm:)

Well, he's not a lead singer, that's for sure. He doesn't have a particularly strong voice, or exceptional range.

However, saying he can't sing is just not true. He's sang (sung?) backup for a long time, and he's done a good job with it. The Wither demo was just made to give James a feel for how the song was supposed to be sung. If they had planned on releasing it with JP singing, I think he would made more of an effort to hit all the notes right. But for what it was, there was nothing wrong it.

Also, LOTS of singers use autotune. James uses it sometimes. Occasionally it's just easier to repair that one little mistake with autotune than it is to sing the whole thing again.

Well, that's my opinion. Free, and most likely worth what it costs.   ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 07, 2013, 04:43:12 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Well, isn't the main idea of a vocal demo to be a guideline to tell James what to do? (Except for Best of Times, obviously, where the vocal demo served a second important purpose.) How can James know what note to sing (well, besides sheet music and common sense) if John is singing it wrong?
But then there's the question of why RRR decided to release the vocal demo. Wither wasn't even single worthy to begin with.

Man, you ninja'd me. I type too slow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 07, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 03:21:07 PM
Dominici completely ruins When Dream and Day Unite. It's a damn shame too, because the music that I've been able to stomach is quite awesome.

Personally, I don't think it's Dominici himself that ruins it, it's just that most of the vocal melodies on WDADU aren't that good. It's not so much a problem with his ability as a singer, as it is with the actual compositions. I know these days, JP, and whoever writes the music, they come up with the vocal melodies too, which is why we have things like "JP Vocal Demo", but WDADU really seemed like Charlie just kind of winged the vocal melodies, and most of the time, they just didn't fit that well. And that's why even James can't really salvage a lot of those songs, like The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 07:59:01 PM
I just find it difficult to listen past his voice. It's a problem I have with Geddy Lee too, but not as much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 08, 2013, 06:32:07 AM
Quote from: Grizz on May 07, 2013, 07:59:01 PM
I just find it difficult to listen past his voice. It's a problem I have with Geddy Lee too, but not as much.

Well, I'm sure if the vocal melodies were better written, and more suitable for his range, he'd sound much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 08, 2013, 12:24:01 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 07, 2013, 04:42:30 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 07, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
Lol John definitely cannot sing (Wither JP vocal demo had AUTOTUNING.  :facepalm: )

Well, he's not a lead singer, that's for sure. He doesn't have a particularly strong voice, or exceptional range.

However, saying he can't sing is just not true. He's sang (sung?) backup for a long time, and he's done a good job with it. The Wither demo was just made to give James a feel for how the song was supposed to be sung. If they had planned on releasing it with JP singing, I think he would made more of an effort to hit all the notes right. But for what it was, there was nothing wrong it.

Also, LOTS of singers use autotune. James uses it sometimes. Occasionally it's just easier to repair that one little mistake with autotune than it is to sing the whole thing again.

Well, that's my opinion. Free, and most likely worth what it costs.   ;)


The truth is, pitch correction software is used on practically every modern album to fix imperfections in both lead and backing vocals.   Recording budgets are not what the used to be and you are exactly right that repairing -as opposed to redoing- an otherwise acceptable performance is now pretty much standard operating procedure in most studios. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 08, 2013, 12:27:14 PM
Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 08, 2013, 12:24:01 PM
The truth is, pitch correction software is used on practically every modern album to fix imperfections in both lead and backing vocals.   Recording budgets are not what the used to be and you are exactly right that repairing -as opposed to redoing- an otherwise acceptable performance is now pretty much standard operating procedure in most studios.

Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on May 08, 2013, 02:22:36 PM
When I say autotune I mean really obvious autotune. As obvious as Friday, for instance (yep, I said it.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 08, 2013, 02:33:17 PM
Again, the vocal demos are not meant for public ears. The Wither single should never have existed anyway.
John without autotune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEhY420yUJ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEhY420yUJ0)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 08, 2013, 02:36:21 PM
 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on May 08, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Hey, that's not the way you react to a top 10 all time DT moment!  :borlag:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 08, 2013, 02:46:25 PM
Well, I admit, that's pretty bad. He was obviously aware of that, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: perfey on May 08, 2013, 02:47:04 PM
 :rollin Love the laughs :P.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 08, 2013, 02:57:49 PM
Quote from: wasteland on May 08, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Hey, that's not the way you react to a top 10 all time DT moment!  :borlag:

was that directed towards me?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 08, 2013, 03:01:15 PM
I love James at 2:20-something saying "and you said John couldn't sing".

1000 of my comments start with "I love James".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on May 09, 2013, 02:25:05 AM
Quote from: Grizz on May 08, 2013, 02:33:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEhY420yUJ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEhY420yUJ0)

 :rollin :rollin :rollin

Quote from: perfey on May 08, 2013, 02:47:04 PM
:rollin Love the laughs :P .

Me too. :lol

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 08, 2013, 03:01:15 PM
I love James at 2:20-something saying "and you said John couldn't sing".

1000 of my comments start with "I love James".

James is the bee's fucking KNEES, people. :hearts:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on May 09, 2013, 10:46:10 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on May 09, 2013, 02:25:05 AM
James is the bee's fucking KNEES, people. :hearts:

Knees do that? :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on May 10, 2013, 02:02:14 AM
Sure, why not? :lol :eyebrows:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Great King Rat on August 05, 2013, 12:33:39 PM
Found this thread and wanted to add a few things (maybe they've been mentioned already):

- based on what I've heard James is mostly a very mediocre live vocalist and their official live albums sound way to polished. Related to this:
- their Metallica tribute where they played the MoP album is one of the worst musical monstrosities evah! After about two songs in they should have thought "nope, we're not gonna continue with this"
- Goodnight kiss is one of their best songs evah! Gives me shivers everytime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 05, 2013, 01:25:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is probably their best heavy song. (over The Glass Prison.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 05, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
I do not like the chorus for LITS.

Or Doug Pinnick's backing vocals.



At all.



Like, not even a little bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 05, 2013, 01:40:24 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 05, 2013, 01:25:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is probably their best heavy song. (over The Glass Prison.)

Ehm not really ;)
I love it, but rating it above Endless Sacrifice, ITNOG, BITS, Panic Attack, This Dying Soul, Honor Thy Father, The Glass Prison, The Mirror and even TDEN feels kind of strange to me. But that's what this thread is for :tup



Quote from: Joshin U on August 05, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
I do not like the chorus for LITS.

Or Doug Pinnick's backing vocals.



At all.



Like, not even a little bit.

I agree with this. The weakest part of the song for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aXygnus on August 05, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is in the top 10 of songs, maybe even top 5 for me.

The instrumental is their best besides maybe Bridges in the Sky (it just flows so smoothly for me) and the outro is quite possibly their best besides Losing Time/Grand Finale, The Best of Times and Finally Free.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 05, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Sign me up for the TMOLS lovers club as well :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on August 05, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
I'll have to agree with my countryman there as well. TMOLS is awesome, my favourite track from SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 05, 2013, 01:52:11 PM
:-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on August 05, 2013, 01:57:43 PM
Back atcha buddy. :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MadImmortalMan on August 05, 2013, 03:14:52 PM
Here's some of mine, though generally I don't have too many left-field opinions about DT.

- Another Day is one of DT's best songs.
- So is ITNOG. (contrast!)
- The only song I really care for at all on SC is TDEN
- The rapping in HTF is really edgy in a good way
- I'm not to impressed by the longer songs on ADTOE, the shorter songs/ballads are great though
- KM was their best lyricist by a few nautical miles.
- I miss the rotating setlists...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 05, 2013, 03:17:10 PM
I agree about Another Day and Kevin Moore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 05, 2013, 03:53:16 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 05, 2013, 03:14:52 PM
Here's some of mine, though generally I don't have too many left-field opinions about DT.

- Another Day is one of DT's best songs.
- So is ITNOG. (contrast!)
- The rapping in HTF is really edgy in a good way
- I miss the rotating setlists...
I agree with these, and the others I haven't really looked into, as I rarely listen to those albums and haven't really looked into the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 05, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: aXygnus on August 05, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is in the top 10 of songs, maybe even top 5 for me.

The instrumental is their best besides maybe Bridges in the Sky (it just flows so smoothly for me) and the outro is quite possibly their best besides Losing Time/Grand Finale, The Best of Times and Finally Free.

Quote from: aprilethereal on August 05, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
Sign me up for the TMOLS lovers club as well :heart

Quote from: Scorpion on August 05, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
I'll have to agree with my countryman there as well. TMOLS is awesome, my favourite track from SC.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fibreoptix on August 07, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
I rate Falling Into Infinity higher than Images and Words.

That's right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on August 07, 2013, 08:25:44 AM
Quote from: fibreoptix on August 07, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
I rate Falling Into Infinity higher than Images and Words.

That's right.

:hifive:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 07, 2013, 08:37:32 AM
I also think the chorus for Blind Faith is one of the poorest that DT has done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on August 07, 2013, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 07, 2013, 08:37:32 AM
I also think the chorus for Blind Faith is one of the poorest that DT has done.
I think it's one of their best, the studio version, that is. The buildup is great, they nailed James' tone perfectly and Mike's answers work really well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 07, 2013, 09:06:30 AM
I rate SC over TOT.    :omg: Now i run for cover.


Add me to the TMOLS lovers club.

Hate Blind Faith, most of The Glass Prison, Disappear. Basically apart from Misunderstood and parts of TGP and TGD i hate SDOIT first disc.  :omg: I rate SC over SDOIT disc 1, now i'm doomed here.

Love ACOS but i find it overrated and the production sucks (snare = :puke:)




Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on August 07, 2013, 09:08:01 AM
Well... you like TMOLS, that's a plus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 07, 2013, 09:25:34 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on August 07, 2013, 09:01:31 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 07, 2013, 08:37:32 AM
I also think the chorus for Blind Faith is one of the poorest that DT has done.
I think it's one of their best, the studio version, that is. The buildup is great, they nailed James' tone perfectly and Mike's answers work really well.

See, my main problem is that its buildup IS so fantastic, and then the chorus has no payoff.  It's just so... flat.  And I also hate Mike's answers because they deflate the chorus so completely.  I wish I could enjoy it, because the rest of the song is incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 07, 2013, 09:54:34 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 17, 2012, 09:34:34 PM
I hope this thread won't turn into Score's vocals were dubbed or not debate. It's really getting annoying. James himself confirmed that, expect some small touches vocals were not dubbed on Score. Any further debate about this matter is just baseless and false.

I saw the show live with my naked steaming ears, and James was so fucking good that night.

As far a controversial opinions: DT is not DT without Mike Portnoy, love mangini's skills but MP was and still is the heart of the band, and I can only hope for a reunion down the road.
 The dt cover album from BCSL is better than their original tunes on that album. Run with it...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 07, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 07, 2013, 09:54:34 AM
The dt cover album from BCSL is better than their original tunes on that album. Run with it...

Agreed. And personally, I think that the covers on that CD are better than the originals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 07, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
No way. Nothing beats the original Stargazer. Those covers are good but don't even come close to the originals IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on August 07, 2013, 03:06:56 PM
Metropolis is one of my least favorite Images and Words songs. Not that I dislike it, it's great, but the majority of the other tracks are stronger.


HERETIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 07, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
No way. Nothing beats the original Stargazer. Those covers are good but don't even come close to the originals IMO.

Hence why the opinion would be controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 08, 2013, 03:03:31 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on August 07, 2013, 03:06:56 PM
Metropolis is one of my least favorite Images and Words songs. Not that I dislike it, it's great, but the majority of the other tracks are stronger.


HERETIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC
Agreed. At least LTL, TTT, S and UAGM are better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 08, 2013, 04:30:22 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on August 07, 2013, 09:08:01 AM
Well... you like TMOLS, that's a plus.

Yes!


Quote from: serrano on August 07, 2013, 09:06:30 AM
I rate SC over SDOIT disc 1, now i'm doomed here.

I rate SC over SDOIT in general. :tup

SDOIT is easily in my bottom 3 together with BC&SL and WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is their best album. Followed by Awake and SFAM.
- DT's "Roadrunner albums" are nowhere near their earlier ones.
- Portnoy had a fair point when he asked for a hiatus/break to recharge batteries and maybe get the creativity flowing again. I wish the rest of the guys had agreed to that.
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on August 08, 2013, 05:38:17 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is their best album. Followed by Awake and SFAM.
- DT's "Roadrunner albums" are nowhere near their earlier ones.
- Portnoy had a fair point when he asked for a hiatus/break to recharge batteries and maybe get the creativity flowing again. I wish the rest of the guys had agreed to that.
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.

Nice, short summary of your feelings toward this. I agree on all accounts, but I think I&W qualifies as a 'best album' as well.

EDIT: I misread, I don't quite agree on the last part. Actually, maybe that would've been great, we don't know. All I know is that I love Jordan Rudess's work on DT's pre Roadrunner albums, as well as Derek's work on ACOS and FII.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on August 08, 2013, 05:42:16 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is their best album. Followed by Awake and SFAM.
- DT's "Roadrunner albums" are nowhere near their earlier ones.
- Portnoy had a fair point when he asked for a hiatus/break to recharge batteries and maybe get the creativity flowing again. I wish the rest of the guys had agreed to that.
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.
I don't think the first three are controversial at all, really. The last isn't really that bad either. These are probably some of the least controversial opinions posted in the topic really. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 08, 2013, 05:43:59 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is their best album. Followed by Awake and SFAM.
- DT's "Roadrunner albums" are nowhere near their earlier ones.
- Portnoy had a fair point when he asked for a hiatus/break to recharge batteries and maybe get the creativity flowing again. I wish the rest of the guys had agreed to that.
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.

I disagree with all of this
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Full Speed on August 08, 2013, 05:48:07 AM
I love POW and You Not Me (which I prefer to You Or Me).

I do not like any of the AA suite besides TROAE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 08, 2013, 05:53:42 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 08, 2013, 05:43:59 AM
I disagree with all of this
I agree to disagree
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 08, 2013, 05:58:29 AM
Great topic!  So here goes;

- I Walk Beside You  is the best song from Dream Theater.

- I've never liked JR's performance in Dream Theater . He is amazing player and seems to be great guy.  But still I think that Dream Theater has become his playground in testing all those wacky sounds from his keyboard.   

- Falling Into Infinity is by FAR  their best albums.  Great songwriting!

Well, that was fun!  :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 08, 2013, 06:05:29 AM
Quote from: Full Speed on August 08, 2013, 05:48:07 AM
I love POW and You Not Me (which I prefer to You Or Me).

I do not like any of the AA suite besides TROAE.

Most of the AA suite are skippers for me. TGP skip after firts verse, TDS skip after JP's lead, TROAE is ok, Repetance skip before it starts, TSF, this one should have been in SDOIT disc 1 as beginning and end of the suite (now, this is really controversial!)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on August 08, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

It comes so naturally to him, and sometimes forgets about the listener. Though one of my favorite JR moments is how he ends In The Name of God. I love that little piano outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on August 08, 2013, 06:16:18 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.
Agreed. I listened to this album he released "Notes on a Dream", he does piano versions of DT songs. I think he almost ruined them with all those notes ...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 08, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

Less is More .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2013, 06:19:43 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 08, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

Less is More .

Rudess is More. More betterer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 08, 2013, 06:48:28 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 08, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Less is More .
Less is less, more is more; both less and more can be bad or good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 08, 2013, 06:58:57 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

You never saw him playing with artistic restraint? Oh, that's a shame, because you are missing a lot. There you go, it's not two days old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtWQ0ps19YQ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 08, 2013, 07:19:50 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 08, 2013, 06:58:57 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

You never saw him playing with artistic restraint? Oh, that's a shame, because you are missing a lot. There you go, it's not two days old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtWQ0ps19YQ

That was great !!!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
I could never get into all of Awake (Though some great tracks off it)
I have never listened to all of FII in one sitting
I love the all the long epics
I like wankery (not in every song though)
Great Debate sucks
BC&SL had too many epics. Needed a few more shorter songs for breathing room
I love cheesy lyrics, they go well with my nachos
ADTOE was a great album. Better that 8v, SC, BC&SL, maybe ToT
Rudess needs more piano solos (not synth solos)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 08, 2013, 08:07:53 AM
Quote from: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
I I have never listened to all of FII in one sitting

Do it. You're really missing out.


Quote from: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
BC&SL had too many epics. Needed a few more shorter songs for breathing room

ADTOE was a great album. Better that 8v, SC, BC&SL, maybe ToT

These are pretty much common opinions (although I disagree with ADTOE being better than 8VM and TOT, but it's still a Top 5 DT album for me).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on August 08, 2013, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
I could never get into all of Awake (Though some great tracks off it)
I have never listened to all of FII in one sitting
I love the all the long epics
I like wankery (not in every song though)
I don't like Great Debate, like, at all.
BC&SL had too many epics. Needed a few more shorter songs for breathing room
I love cheesy lyrics, they go well with my nachos
ADTOE was a great album. Better that 8v, SC, BC&SL, maybe ToT
Rudess needs more piano solos (not synth solos)

FTFY.

Just trying to be helpful. Bashing is heavily frowned on around here. You may want to forget that certain words like 'sucks' even exist.  :)

Oh and The Great Debate is an awesome song just for MP's drum choices and playing alone even if you don't like anything else about it. Personally, I love all of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 08, 2013, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
I could never get into all of Awake (Though some great tracks off it)
I have never listened to all of FII in one sitting
I love the all the long epics
I like wankery (not in every song though)
Great Debate sucks
BC&SL had too many epics. Needed a few more shorter songs for breathing room
I love cheesy lyrics, they go well with my nachos
ADTOE was a great album. Better that 8v, SC, BC&SL, maybe ToT
Rudess needs more piano solos (not synth solos)

Nothing really shocking here.

When i listen to FII there are a couple of songs where my finger seems to think by itself and searches for the skip key.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on August 08, 2013, 08:13:58 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 07, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 07, 2013, 09:54:34 AM
The dt cover album from BCSL is better than their original tunes on that album. Run with it...

Agreed. And personally, I think that the covers on that CD are better than the originals.

Aside from the Queen tracks surely?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on August 08, 2013, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on August 08, 2013, 08:13:58 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 07, 2013, 11:21:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 07, 2013, 09:54:34 AM
The dt cover album from BCSL is better than their original tunes on that album. Run with it...

Agreed. And personally, I think that the covers on that CD are better than the originals.

Aside from the Queen tracks surely?

 ??? The Queen cover is the highlight of the covers CD. So I'm sure that's what he's saying. (see bold text)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 08, 2013, 08:19:56 AM
The queen covers are great, even Brian May was asked in an interview and was amazed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on August 08, 2013, 10:15:37 AM
OK to clarify:

The notion that the covers CD is better than the main BCaSL disc is one that I don't wholly disagree with.

The notion that the covers themselves are better than the original songs that are being covered.....again, I think there may be merit in that.

Brian May and Roger Taylor did indeed say how impressed they were with the covers. They are fantastic tributes and covers of Queen songs. However, I don't see that DTs version of said Queen songs can be better. My opinion of course, but they are 3 (in 1) songs that are Queen fan favorites and epitomise that early Queen sound. They original Queen songs are much heavier and bigger sounding.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on August 08, 2013, 10:40:17 AM
I am really hard pressed to find any opinion of mine that could be considered controversial. I like everything from DT. Maybe that's controversial. Or that I would love to see Mike Portnoy back in DT, I know that's not the majority here according to the poll.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 08, 2013, 06:58:57 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.


To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

You never saw him playing with artistic restraint? Oh, that's a shame, because you are missing a lot. There you go, it's not two days old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtWQ0ps19YQ

That piece was wonderful, too bad it doesn't get put into DT's music more often.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 11:19:36 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 08, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

Less is Moore .

TFTY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 11:24:06 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 11:19:36 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 08, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 08, 2013, 06:05:36 AM
To further expand on this Jordan, (at least to me) is a little too good. I never see any restraint from him when playing, slow pieces will go into a flurry of notes. That is where I lose him most of the time.

Moore is Less.

TFTY

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonny108 on August 08, 2013, 04:38:27 PM
New Millennium is the best song on FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 08, 2013, 04:46:08 PM
Haven't been reading this thread, but I just posted in another thread that lotsa peoples prolly disagree with :D

I think LaBrie's two equally best moments on studio albums are Goodnight Kiss and Through Her Eyes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Quote from: jonny108 on August 08, 2013, 04:38:27 PM
New Millennium is the best song on FII.


 :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 04:51:49 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 21, 2013, 06:43:47 PM
wait.....








                     no...








         


                                                      No.











                                                                               NO!














             

                NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: jonny108 on August 08, 2013, 04:38:27 PM
New Millennium is the best song on FII.

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on August 08, 2013, 04:58:49 PM
Quote from: jonny108 on August 08, 2013, 04:38:27 PM
New Millennium is the best song on FII.

While I enjoy ToT and LITS, I agree that its one of the best on the album  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 08, 2013, 04:59:54 PM
New Millennium is a fantastic song, and is better sonically and structurally than many DT songs. Not a lot of their songs are nearly as groovy as New Millennium, and few have as many wonderfully coherent musical ideas. I'd love to see more songs like it. But still not better than Trial of Tears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

 :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 08, 2013, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

 :huh:

It's obviously just a typo..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

 :huh:

I was gonna make some sort of "Myung yodel ending" joke, but I realized it's kind of played out. Alas.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 05:45:14 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

 :huh:

It's a hidden bonus track. It's so hidden, that it took people 7 years to find it, on a different disc in a different package.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 06:12:11 PM
Quote from: Podaar on August 08, 2013, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: maximumrocker on August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
I could never get into all of Awake (Though some great tracks off it)
I have never listened to all of FII in one sitting
I love the all the long epics
I like wankery (not in every song though)
I don't like Great Debate, like, at all.
BC&SL had too many epics. Needed a few more shorter songs for breathing room
I love cheesy lyrics, they go well with my nachos
ADTOE was a great album. Better that 8v, SC, BC&SL, maybe ToT
Rudess needs more piano solos (not synth solos)

FTFY.

Just trying to be helpful. Bashing is heavily frowned on around here. You may want to forget that certain words like 'sucks' even exist.  :)

Oh and The Great Debate is an awesome song just for MP's drum choices and playing alone even if you don't like anything else about it. Personally, I love all of it.

My bad dude! Thanks for the heads up. Ill keep it in mind

Another two I'll add to my list. Though I enjoy from time to time - Learning to Live is awesome some days, and other days I just can't get into it...
I havn't listened to all of WDADU...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 06:16:02 PM
Do it. WDADU is awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on August 08, 2013, 06:23:03 PM
TMOLS is a top 15 song for me.......really.......no joke
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MadImmortalMan on August 08, 2013, 09:37:27 PM
Glad to know everyone else enjoys it. TMOLS is probably...bottom 3 for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 09:43:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 08, 2013, 09:37:27 PM
Glad to know everyone else enjoys it. TMOLS is probably...bottom 3 for me.

That's not very controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MadImmortalMan on August 08, 2013, 09:50:14 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 09:43:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 08, 2013, 09:37:27 PM
Glad to know everyone else enjoys it. TMOLS is probably...bottom 3 for me.

That's not very controversial.

I know, I was just responding to the number of posts praising the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 08, 2013, 09:56:02 PM
Count me among the TMOLS lovers. I've been getting the impression that there are more of us than it seems like and the people who don't like the song just talk about it more.

I'm not sure how many controversial opinions I have. I think there are a lot of songs I like that others don't, which is normal for me. When I fall in love with a band, I tend to like most of what they've done. It's not like I blind myself to anything negative, I just typically find myself liking most of the things the artist created.

I guess I'll list a few unpopular songs/sections of songs that I like more than most, and then I'll see if I come up with any negative opinions.


Wow, I actually came up with a lot there. Wasn't planning on that. Well, here you go DTF.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 10:06:50 PM
Quote from: 425 on August 08, 2013, 09:56:02 PM

  • Constant Motion - I really love this song. Vocally, musically, lyrically. Same with TDEN but that's become so commonly stated lately that I don't think it qualifies as controversial anymore. It's high time CM got the same level of love (maybe not quite as much but still).
  • A Nightmare to Remember - Mike's vocal passage fits just fine with the lyrics and I'm glad he did it.

Regarding all that, while I didn't mind his rap on A Nightmare to Remember, the backing screams he did on the other songs on BC&SL, such as on AROP, TCOT, etc, really were a detriment to those songs, and the songs would've been much better without that. Of course, a lot of people would agree with me, so that's not really controversial. BUT! Having said that, I honestly really like the vocal contributions he provided for Systematic Chaos. His back and forth rap on Constant Motion was awesome, his rap and Queen harmonies in Prophets of War were pretty awesome as well. I felt like it undermined JLB's part in the band a little bit, but sonically, I enjoyed it very much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 08, 2013, 10:16:36 PM
My controversial opinion: I think DT is slowly entering Rush territory, where the excitement for their new stuff kinda simmers at a low level, and most people show up at concerts to just hear the old stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2013, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 06:16:02 PM
Do it. WDADU is awesome.

This is the most controversial post so far! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on August 08, 2013, 10:29:33 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 08, 2013, 10:16:36 PM
My controversial opinion: I think DT is slowly entering Rush territory, where the excitement for their new stuff kinda simmers at a low level, and most people show up at concerts to just hear the old stuff.
That could be said for almost any older band to a certain extent, but I think DT is doing better in that department than most. Their popularity is still on the rise and they really don't have a single song which they absolutely have to play on every concert. So good luck going in there just for PMU. Also, they play the majority of their latest album on tour, not just 1-2 songs. Personally, I am way more excited to hear the ADTOE songs on Luna Park than anything else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2013, 10:32:35 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on August 08, 2013, 10:29:33 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 08, 2013, 10:16:36 PM
My controversial opinion: I think DT is slowly entering Rush territory, where the excitement for their new stuff kinda simmers at a low level, and most people show up at concerts to just hear the old stuff.
That could be said for almost any older band to a certain extent, but I think DT is doing better in that department than most. Their popularity is still on the rise and they really don't have a single song which they absolutely have to play on every concert. So good luck going in there just for PMU. Also, they play the majority of their latest album on tour, not just 1-2 songs. Personally, I am way more excited to hear the ADTOE songs on Luna Park than anything else.

I'm pretty sure that once they started touring after ADTOE came out, everyone was psyched to hear at least a couple of the songs they played from ADTOE. They had created such a perfect balance of their old and new stuff that tour. Especially Setlist C.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on August 08, 2013, 10:59:35 PM
SDOIT is one of my least favorite songs by DT. It's just never done anything for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 09, 2013, 01:12:08 AM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do

Me neither. Metropolis and UAGM are fantastic, LTL and WFS are great, but the entire first half of the album does absolutely nothing to me. Another Day is one of the worst DT songs ever.



Quote from: AngelBack on August 08, 2013, 06:23:03 PM
TMOLS is a top 15 song for me.......really.......no joke

:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 09, 2013, 08:29:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2013, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 06:16:02 PM
Do it. WDADU is awesome.

This is the most controversial post so far! :lol
:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 09, 2013, 08:34:33 AM
I don't think Take the Time or Another Day are very good songs. Another Day is very poppy and generic, and with Take the Time I hate the structure and how inane it feels to listen to, with no unifying themes or strong recurring melodies; it feels very stitched together to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 09, 2013, 08:35:56 AM
 :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 09, 2013, 09:18:28 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 09, 2013, 08:34:33 AM
I don't think Take the Time or Another Day are very good songs. Another Day is very poppy and generic, and with Take the Time I hate the structure and how inane it feels to listen to, with no unifying themes or strong recurring melodies; it feels very stitched together to me.

Nothing wrong with a song being "poppy", but I agree, Another Day is my least favourite from I&W and TTT is in the bottom half as well (either second or third least favourite).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 09, 2013, 09:31:02 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 09, 2013, 08:34:33 AM
I don't think Take the Time or Another Day are very good songs. Another Day is very poppy and generic, and with Take the Time I hate the structure and how inane it feels to listen to, with no unifying themes or strong recurring melodies; it feels very stitched together to me.

I would tend to agree about Another Day, it never really clicked for me, but I do like TtT!

Quote from: Sycsa on August 08, 2013, 10:29:33 PM
That could be said for almost any older band to a certain extent, but I think DT is doing better in that department than most. Their popularity is still on the rise and they really don't have a single song which they absolutely have to play on every concert. So good luck going in there just for PMU. Also, they play the majority of their latest album on tour, not just 1-2 songs. Personally, I am way more excited to hear the ADTOE songs on Luna Park than anything else.

Yes this completely... DT has managed to avoid the normal trap bands who have been around a long time fall into.  When they tour, they tend to focus on new material, and usually play different songs from their back catalog from what they played the previous few album tours. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 09, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2013, 06:16:02 PM
WDADU is awesome.
QFT :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 09, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
Portnoy just has stayed in DT for this long because he wanted to finish the Twelve-step Suite. As soon as it was done, he did a tour and then the band should call it's day (this part did not work out). Nothing else to say and all that.

Second part of the controversial opinion: five years later he would regroup the band to do a worldwide tour to play just the Twelve-step Suite (and 2 or 3 other songs), and release a live album. Or maybe a "best of" - with just the songs from the suite.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dragonmaster715 on August 10, 2013, 09:13:07 AM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 08, 2013, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 08, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: dragonmaster715 on August 08, 2013, 05:41:23 PM
ive got a phew things

SC is underrated, one of my favorite DT albums, SC>IAW
i dont like IAW nearly as much as most people do, the only songs on it i really like are pull me under and metropolis pt 2
pull me under is good but not nearly DT's best song
the ministry of lost souls is one of my fav DT songs, top 10

 :huh:

It's obviously just a typo..

Correct, just a typo lol, i meant metropolis pt 1
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 09, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
Portnoy just has stayed in DT for this long because he wanted to finish the Twelve-step Suite. As soon as it was done, he did a tour and then the band should call it's day (this part did not work out). Nothing else to say and all that.

Second part of the controversial opinion: five years later he would regroup the band to do a worldwide tour to play just the Twelve-step Suite (and 2 or 3 other songs), and release a live album. Or maybe a "best of" - with just the songs from the suite.

I don't agree with any of this.

But you have a Chroma Key avatar. What to do, what to do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2013, 09:17:51 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 09, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
Portnoy just has stayed in DT for this long because he wanted to finish the Twelve-step Suite. As soon as it was done, he did a tour and then the band should call it's day (this part did not work out). Nothing else to say and all that.

Second part of the controversial opinion: five years later he would regroup the band to do a worldwide tour to play just the Twelve-step Suite (and 2 or 3 other songs), and release a live album. Or maybe a "best of" - with just the songs from the suite.

Technically, it's more of a theory than an opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 10, 2013, 10:32:03 AM
I agree the second part is quite stupid...  ;D (but possible)

But I believe in the first part!  :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 10, 2013, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 10, 2013, 10:32:03 AM
I agree the second part is quite stupid...  ;D (but possible)

But I believe in the first part!  :corn

I disagree with the first theory and I think the second is utter madness, but the reason behind this post of mine is complimenting you on your very good avatar  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 10, 2013, 10:44:40 AM
Saved by Moore! Again!  :hefdaddy

But aren't the most incrongruous opinions the funniest?  :biggrin:

EDIT:

So let me give you some controversial OPINION, and not some paranoic theory:

Charlie Dominici first album - 03 trilogy part one - is amazing, it is better than WDADU, SC, 8VM, 6DoIT, etc.

 :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 10, 2013, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 10, 2013, 10:44:40 AM
Saved by Moore! Again!  :hefdaddy
Well, he offered everyone Salvation on Graveyard Mountain Home :D

(your avatar rules! :tup)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 10:59:48 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 10, 2013, 10:44:40 AM
So let me give you some controversial OPINION, and not some paranoic theory:

Charlie Dominici first album - 03 trilogy part one - is amazing, it is better than WDADU, SC, 8VM, 6DoIT, etc.

Hmm, I've only heard Part 3, but it's really good. Not sure that I'd rank it over many DT albums though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 10, 2013, 11:19:59 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 10:59:48 AM
Hmm, I've only heard Part 3, but it's really good. Not sure that I'd rank it over many DT albums though.

It is good, isn't it? I was really impressed! It seems everyone who spent some time at DTLand has some magic in him.

The first album is just vocal + acoustic guitar, but it has some very good lyrics (better than part 2 or 3), and he is quite good playing. The album reminds me something of Springsteen's Nebraska.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on August 10, 2013, 04:29:05 PM
Panic Attack and This Dying Soul are top tier DT metal songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 04:29:59 PM
I do not disagree with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on August 10, 2013, 04:59:04 PM
I agree with TDS, but not PA at all. I thought it was more controversial to dislike PA than it is to like it personally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 04:59:57 PM
A lot of people seem to dislike Panic Attack. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on August 10, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
I find SFAM very difficult to listen to now. I used to be obsessed with it, like most of you guys.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on August 10, 2013, 10:11:46 PM
Quote from: FourthHorseman on August 10, 2013, 04:29:05 PM
Panic Attack and This Dying Soul are top tier DT metal songs.
Yeah, they're both awesome. :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolven74 on August 10, 2013, 10:24:23 PM
The more I hear it, the more I realize that TEI has absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on August 10, 2013, 10:36:28 PM
Quote from: Polis on August 10, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
I find SFAM very difficult to listen to now. I used to be obsessed with it, like most of you guys.

The lyrics almost ruin it for me, save Home and The Spirit Carries On.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Yoshi Yogurt on August 10, 2013, 10:45:58 PM
Quote from: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
I&W is junk, along with Awake
Systematic Chaos is their best album, Forsaken the best song
Erotomania is their worst instrumental, SOC being the best
New Millenium and You Not Me are the best from FII
TDEN lyrics rocks
Repentance is the best song from the 12 step suite
SFAM doesnt catch my attention
Octavarium is better than ACOS

Dear God... :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 11, 2013, 12:57:14 AM
I agree with the Erotomania comment. And the Octavarium comment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 11, 2013, 01:49:33 AM
Yes. Octavarium is so superior to A Change Of Seasons it's not funny.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 11, 2013, 01:50:49 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2013, 04:59:57 PM
A lot of people seem to dislike Panic Attack. :dunno:

I like it.  Never Enough is worse. I'm surprised LaBrie didn't gasp between every line to really seal the deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 11, 2013, 04:33:51 AM
Never Enough is great, the instrumental section is plain awesome. And I like the lyrics.

After two years of SFAM obsession, Finally Free might be my new favourite from that album, superseding Home (not sure if that's controversial at all).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on August 11, 2013, 06:53:27 AM
Quote from: bongomaster7000 on January 24, 2013, 09:43:02 PM

Erotomania is their worst instrumental, SOC being the best
New Millennium and You Not Me are the best from FII



I'll take these two things. I never got what is so great about Erotomania. I thought I heard SOC repeats too much; Erotomania does that to me; the chromatic riff does not a whole lot for me.

NM was the song that really got me into DT. Thus, it is prob my fav from FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on August 11, 2013, 10:08:02 AM
The Enemy Inside's mix and master is perfectly fine.

 :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 11, 2013, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 11, 2013, 04:33:51 AM
Never Enough is great, the instrumental section is plain awesome. And I like the lyrics.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 11, 2013, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 11, 2013, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 11, 2013, 04:33:51 AM
Never Enough is great, the instrumental section is plain awesome. And I like the lyrics.

 :tup

Yes! Thank you!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 11, 2013, 11:38:01 AM
:hifive:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
I have a lot of them:

-WDADU is full of amazing songs that are almost unlistenable due to the production
-SC is an amazing album, Constant Motion and Prophets of War are both amazing songs
-BC&SL is an amazing album as well, with no bad songs, and the 2 epics are both in contention for best DT songs
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs
-Probably not controversial, but ADTOE is a perfect album, every song is legendary, and it MAY eventually pass I&W as my #1 DT album
-TEI is a VERY average song, and is infinitely inferior to OTBOA, which may be DT's best single ever
-Awake is an average album with a lot of songs I don't like, and not a single song I would consider a DT classic

I don't fit in here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 11, 2013, 07:43:55 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
I have a lot of them:

-WDADU is full of amazing songs that are almost unlistenable due to the production
-SC is an amazing album, Constant Motion and Prophets of War are both amazing songs
-BC&SL is an amazing album as well, with no bad songs, and the 2 epics are both in contention for best DT songs
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs
-Probably not controversial, but ADTOE is a perfect album, every song is legendary, and it MAY eventually pass I&W as my #1 DT album
-TEI is a VERY average song, and is infinitely inferior to OTBOA, which may be DT's best single ever
-Awake is an average album with a lot of songs I don't like, and not a single song I would consider a DT classic

I don't fit in here.

These are the ones I violently disagree with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 11, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
-WDADU is full of amazing songs that are almost unlistenable due to the production
-SC is an amazing album, Constant Motion and Prophets of War are both amazing songs
-BC&SL is an amazing album as well, with no bad songs, and the 2 epics are both in contention for best DT songs
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs
-Probably not controversial, but ADTOE is a perfect album, every song is legendary, and it MAY eventually pass I&W as my #1 DT album
-TEI is a VERY average song, and is infinitely inferior to OTBOA, which may be DT's best single ever
-Awake is an average album with a lot of songs I don't like, and not a single song I would consider a DT classic

I don't fit in here.
Maybe Half Yes No No Yes Half Nobody does
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 11, 2013, 08:23:23 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs

 :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 11, 2013, 08:24:08 PM
^ This is the correct response.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolven74 on August 11, 2013, 09:06:00 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 11, 2013, 08:23:23 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs

 :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored :censored
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 10:55:50 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 07, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
No way. Nothing beats the original Stargazer. Those covers are good but don't even come close to the originals IMO.

I was referring to the Originals on BC&SL. The cover album is better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 10:58:45 PM
Quote from: JLa on August 08, 2013, 05:33:15 AM
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is their best album. Followed by Awake and SFAM.
- DT's "Roadrunner albums" are nowhere near their earlier ones.
- Portnoy had a fair point when he asked for a hiatus/break to recharge batteries and maybe get the creativity flowing again. I wish the rest of the guys had agreed to that.
- Jordan is an amazing player and seems like a great guy, but I'm not a fan of his playing style. Kevin obviously didn't want to be part of the band anymore, but I wish they had kept Derek.
Some good points, and I agree at times Derek's tone choices I favor of Jordan's. Although Jordan is a much better musician over all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
Now for the band look, it is past time for JP to cut his hair and face the fact he is going bald, James should stop trimming his eyebrows so thin. Look back at the Marque documentary and see how they used to look. John should go back the Ibanez, or at least his old sound. Jordan should use the hammond B-3 organ sound way more than he does, and stop with the pop pop pop doodle pop he seems to love. Mike Mangini need to stop ironing his hair straight it looks awful.
We need to hear some songs that MP had more of a hand in on this tour whether it was lyric writing or backup singing. JP enough with the weights already or change your diet so you get some definition of your muscle tone. You are just starting to look weird and did I mention you hair needs help.
Also will you ever an acoustic guitar in concert like Alex in Rush does. It would be a nice change.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 11, 2013, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
Now for the band look, it is past time for JP to cut his hair and face the fact he is going bald, James should stop trimming his eyebrows so thin. Look back at the Marque documentary and see how they used to look. John should go back the Ibanez, or at least his old sound. Jordan should use the hammond B-3 organ sound way more than he does, and stop with the pop pop pop doodle pop he seems to love. Mike Mangini need to stop ironing his hair straight it looks awful.
We need to hear some songs that MP had more of a hand in on this tour whether it was lyric writing or backup singing. JP enough with the weights already or change your diet so you get some definition of your muscle tone. You are just starting to look weird and did I mention you hair needs help.
Also will you ever an acoustic guitar in concert like Alex in Rush does. It would be a nice change.

Dude o.o stop messing with Petrucci's hair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 01:20:12 AM
-1. That Images and Words is sounding very dated, and many rave about it because of popular opinion, but not because they listen to it that much anymore ;

and

-2. That John Myung isn't actually a Ninja, but in fact a combination of Chuck Norris' skills, Kevin Sorbo's swordplay, Hasselhoffs charm, and Steven Segals hair, all wrapped into one - making him an uber-human...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2013, 01:24:10 AM
Quote from: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 01:20:12 AM
-1. That Images and Words is sounding very dated, and many rave about it because of popular opinion, but not because they listen to it that much anymore ;

Well, there are certain elements about it that sound very 90s, sure, but that doesn't mean it's not genuinely enjoyable in spite, or even because of them. I listen to it on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 01:31:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2013, 01:24:10 AM
Quote from: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 01:20:12 AM
-1. That Images and Words is sounding very dated, and many rave about it because of popular opinion, but not because they listen to it that much anymore ;

Well, there are certain elements about it that sound very 90s, sure, but that doesn't mean it's not genuinely enjoyable in spite, or even because of them. I listen to it on a regular basis.

Hence a 'controversial opinion' :yarr Awesome bud, glad you still enjoy it  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 12, 2013, 04:07:34 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
Mike Mangini need to stop ironing his hair straight it looks awful.

This.



Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
Also will you ever an acoustic guitar in concert like Alex in Rush does. It would be a nice change.

He did last tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on August 12, 2013, 04:11:15 AM
Quote from: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 01:20:12 AM
-1. That Images and Words is sounding very dated, and many rave about it because of popular opinion, but not because they listen to it that much anymore ;
It's probably the DT album that gets most frequently played by me. But I barely listen to DT anymore so whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikemangioy on August 12, 2013, 04:55:57 AM
I like Octavarium, TOT and 6DOIT more than I&W. I don't enjoy listening to ACOS, and I think it's the 20 min song I like the least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 12, 2013, 05:13:03 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
-WDADU is full of amazing songs that are almost unlistenable due to the production

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 12, 2013, 06:15:37 AM
What are you trying to deny that WDADU is the sonic equivalent of a turd? Good luck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 12, 2013, 06:18:04 AM
Quote from: Grizz on August 12, 2013, 06:15:37 AM
What are you trying to deny that WDADU is the sonic equivalent of a turd? Good luck.

I admit that the production sucks, but it doesn't make the songs unlistenable. It's not THAT bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 12, 2013, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
John should go back the Ibanez,

When he was with Ibanez, his playing was more interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRX_5o2YD8
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 12, 2013, 07:53:29 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 12, 2013, 06:18:04 AM
Quote from: Grizz on August 12, 2013, 06:15:37 AM
What are you trying to deny that WDADU is the sonic equivalent of a turd? Good luck.
I admit that the production sucks, but it doesn't make the songs unlistenable. It's not THAT bad.
Agreed. Good music is good music even if the sound quality ain't great.
Quote from: XB0BX on August 11, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
-Surrounded is a terrible song with no redeeming qualities, one of my least favorite DT songs
-Awake is an average album with a lot of songs I don't like, and not a single song I would consider a DT classic
:(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on August 12, 2013, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 12, 2013, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
John should go back the Ibanez,

When he was with Ibanez, his playing was more interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRX_5o2YD8
:hefdaddy to JPs playing in that vid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 12, 2013, 12:49:41 PM
JP's hair looks best when it's short. There, I said it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 12, 2013, 01:00:52 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 12, 2013, 12:49:41 PM
JP's hair looks best when it's short. There, I said it.

Haha! I wouldn't say it looks best short, but I am a fan of this look for sure:
(https://gunshyassassin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/john.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 12, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
Can someone explain to me what exactly is so amazing about Awake? The only "classic" DT song on that album is SDV. Strangely enough, I also think Scarred is my favorite song from that album, and a lot of you people seem to hate it for some incomprehensible reason. Scarred is probably the catchiest "long" song on that album, and how can you not love the drumming near the end of the song? And that bass intro? I don't get DTF's opinions on this album as a whole. Really, guys?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 12, 2013, 07:30:10 PM
Awake is amazing!  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

But some days I wake up thinking I&W is the best...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 12, 2013, 07:33:25 PM
First three songs on Awake :  :tup

Everything after that :  :\


( my opinion ) .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on August 12, 2013, 07:37:20 PM
These Walls is one of my least favorite DT songs. Don't dislike it, but it really never did much for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jayvee3 on August 12, 2013, 09:31:45 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 12, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
Can someone explain to me what exactly is so amazing about Awake? The only "classic" DT song on that album is SDV. Strangely enough, I also think Scarred is my favorite song from that album, and a lot of you people seem to hate it for some incomprehensible reason. Scarred is probably the catchiest "long" song on that album, and how can you not love the drumming near the end of the song? And that bass intro? I don't get DTF's opinions on this album as a whole. Really, guys?

I enjoy these types of opinions, as they really show the diversity of the music, and the fans reactions. I really enjoy awake, but for me, I think Space Dye Vest is one of the worst things they have done, yet love a great deal of the other material like The Mirror, Lie (particularly that ending solo), Innocence Faded, Voices, and my very fave, and one you already touched on - Scarred. But as much as I dislike SDV, the theme in that song, and how it is used in different tones in some of the other songs, is quite brilliant, and adds some really good cohesion. Not to mention, it sets a more dark and heavy tone following I&W, so it was very fresh sounding at the time, and could possibly resonate more with the fans who like the heavier stuff. So you likely aren't alone in your opinion (in fact, I feel the same way about I&W), but thats at least a little insight to why I at least really enjoy that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Buddyhunter1 on August 12, 2013, 09:34:53 PM
Awake might be my 2nd-least favorite DT album, to be honest. It's nowhere near bad, but the only songs on it I really like are 6:00 and The Mirror, the rest ranges from subpar to okay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 12, 2013, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jsem on August 12, 2013, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 12, 2013, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
John should go back the Ibanez,

When he was with Ibanez, his playing was more interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRX_5o2YD8
:hefdaddy to JPs playing in that vid.

Whoa.. This is just amazing. Why doesn't have play anymore with this kind of groove? :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 12, 2013, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 12, 2013, 07:37:20 PM
These Walls is one of my least favorite DT songs. Don't dislike it, but it really never did much for me.

And my controversial opinion is that it is one of my all-time favorites. For most, I guess it's just a mid-tier song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 12, 2013, 11:00:20 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 12, 2013, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 12, 2013, 07:37:20 PM
These Walls is one of my least favorite DT songs. Don't dislike it, but it really never did much for me.

And my controversial opinion is that it is one of my all-time favorites. For most, I guess it's just a mid-tier song.

One of my favourites too! 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 12, 2013, 11:26:56 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 10:55:50 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 07, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
No way. Nothing beats the original Stargazer. Those covers are good but don't even come close to the originals IMO.

I was referring to the Originals on BC&SL. The cover album is better.
My reply was to TGP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 13, 2013, 12:36:01 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 12, 2013, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 12, 2013, 07:37:20 PM
These Walls is one of my least favorite DT songs. Don't dislike it, but it really never did much for me.

And my controversial opinion is that it is one of my all-time favorites. For most, I guess it's just a mid-tier song.

Likewise, maybe even top 20 for me. It's possibly my favourite song on Octavarium, maybe more than the title track. Such beautiful melodies, a great lead line from JR, and a perfect use of changing time sigs that doesn't stick out. And it's one of their most tasteful songs. JP's solo has no shred at all. It's just a nice melody, that then repeats similarly over the final chorus.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on August 12, 2013, 09:34:53 PM
Awake might be my 2nd-least favorite DT album, to be honest. It's nowhere near bad, but the only songs on it I really like are 6:00 and The Mirror, the rest ranges from subpar to okay.

It's one of my least favourite albums too, although I actually like the whole album up until Lie, and then dislike everything after that. We're in the controversial opinion thread, so I'm allowed to say that today!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:37:19 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 12, 2013, 11:26:56 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 10:55:50 PM
I was referring to the Originals on BC&SL. The cover album is better.
My reply was to TGP.

He mans me. Not The Glass Prison.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 3xodus on August 13, 2013, 03:15:55 AM
James Labrie's last two albums were better than Dream Theaters last two albums. This new one is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 13, 2013, 04:36:38 AM
SDV is my #5 DT song. Voices however is easily my least favourite Awake tune.

And :tup for the These Walls love here!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
I don't know if these are controversial, I just needed to write it after reading some posts here:

Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

I've never been able to love Scarred, although intro and outro are one of their best.

I often think that Take The Time is the best song ever done, it's so fresh, powerful, catchy and varied.

The only enjoyable thing of The Glass Prison might be the intro.

Rudess's lead solos have not been good for years, too much wankery . His piano/synth playing is way better.

The Mirror's intro and outro are simply genius.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 13, 2013, 05:49:20 AM
not even close; I love it; no; no; yes; great, but there are better parts in the song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 13, 2013, 06:26:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 13, 2013, 12:36:01 AM


It's one of my least favourite albums too, although I actually like the whole album up until Lie, and then dislike everything after that. We're in the controversial opinion thread, so I'm allowed to say that today!

I'm not overly keen on Awake. I love the opening three tracks but then it bores me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 13, 2013, 06:39:42 AM
Quote from: krieger on August 12, 2013, 07:30:10 PM
Awake is amazing!  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

But some days I wake up thinking I&W is the best...

I used to love Awake, when I first got into DT all I listened to was SDOIT and Awake. SDOIT is still good whereas I haven't been able to get through awake in one sitting in many, many years
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: thosava on August 13, 2013, 08:10:23 AM
Quote from: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.

Same for me, number 5 on my list  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on August 13, 2013, 08:17:26 AM
It's going to be tough for DT12 to beat Impermanent Resonance based on what we've heard (single) and seen (interviews) so far.


Does that count?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 13, 2013, 08:19:03 AM
 :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 13, 2013, 08:37:15 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on December 23, 2012, 09:04:30 AM
Quote
  Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

I love Mangini as a person and as a drummer - but his solos bore me to death.


I don't like listening to anything where it's primarily about technique rather than just playing a groove with some tasty fills...


In music college - i'd hear guitarists go " Oh that scale worked great over that altered chord ".



It just leaves me cold - i'd rather hear one note being played with 100% feel than some alternate scale simply because the theory behind it is interesting.

so you miss MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 13, 2013, 09:03:52 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 12, 2013, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jsem on August 12, 2013, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 12, 2013, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
John should go back the Ibanez,

When he was with Ibanez, his playing was more interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRX_5o2YD8
:hefdaddy to JPs playing in that vid.

Whoa.. This is just amazing. Why doesn't have play anymore with this kind of groove? :p

Some more killer Ibanez playing with feeling.https://youtu.be/DynYO_-MxZk
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on August 13, 2013, 10:31:03 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
I often think that Take The Time is the best song always done, it's so fresh, powerful, catchy and varied.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nekov on August 13, 2013, 10:48:24 AM
Quote from: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.

#4 in my list  :tup

Quote from: ReaperKK on August 12, 2013, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
John should go back the Ibanez,

When he was with Ibanez, his playing was more interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNRX_5o2YD8

Not sure is has to do with the guitar but yeah, back in the day JP blew my mind a lot more than he does nowadays. He's lost his groovynes in favor of a more technical/fast way of playing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on August 13, 2013, 11:01:15 AM
A Dramatic Turn of Events was a pretty terrible album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I usually forget that WDADU is DT's first album... Am I doing it right...? :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 13, 2013, 12:20:29 PM
I try to forget that WDaDU is DT's first album...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I usually forget that WDADU is DT's first album... Am I doing it right...? :neverusethis:

There are quite a few bands where I'd be much happier not counting their debut albums. Not that WDADU is that terrible, but it just kills the consistency of what I'd say an otherwise near perfect discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 12, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
Can someone explain to me what exactly is so amazing about Awake? The only "classic" DT song on that album is SDV. Strangely enough, I also think Scarred is my favorite song from that album, and a lot of you people seem to hate it for some incomprehensible reason. Scarred is probably the catchiest "long" song on that album, and how can you not love the drumming near the end of the song? And that bass intro? I don't get DTF's opinions on this album as a whole. Really, guys?

I really love Scarred as well, so agree there! :tup However, I pretty much love All of Awake, come to think of it. SDV might be my least favorite song on the album, but it's still a great track. The only reason it's least favorite is cause I generally listen to that album for heavier stuff, and then SDV happens and I'm like Oh. Haha.

Does no one else share my absolute eternal love for Caught in a Web?? It's easily my favorite from Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 12:26:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I usually forget that WDADU is DT's first album... Am I doing it right...? :neverusethis:

There are quite a few bands where I'd be much happier not counting their debut albums. Not that WDADU is that terrible, but it just kills the consistency of what I'd say an otherwise near perfect discography.

Totally agreed. Some of the songs are great...but I'd love it if they went back into the studio or something for those (yes, not going to happen and I know of WDADRU). "Kills the consistency" is the nicest way to put it  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:28:07 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
Does no one else share my absolute eternal love for Caught in a Web?? It's easily my favorite from Awake.

I love Caught In A Web. Maybe not my absolute favorite on the album, but close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 13, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I usually forget that WDADU is DT's first album... Am I doing it right...? :neverusethis:

There are quite a few bands where I'd be much happier not counting their debut albums. Not that WDADU is that terrible, but it just kills the consistency of what I'd say an otherwise near perfect discography.

Like Rush? That's the first band that comes to my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 13, 2013, 12:33:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:28:07 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
Does no one else share my absolute eternal love for Caught in a Web?? It's easily my favorite from Awake.

I love Caught In A Web. Maybe not my absolute favorite on the album, but close.

Yes! I wish DT wrote more shorter songs like this; very compact, strong, and proggy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:38:12 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 13, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
I usually forget that WDADU is DT's first album... Am I doing it right...? :neverusethis:

There are quite a few bands where I'd be much happier not counting their debut albums. Not that WDADU is that terrible, but it just kills the consistency of what I'd say an otherwise near perfect discography.

Like Rush? That's the first band that comes to my mind.

I haven't really listened to Rush's discography in full. But oftentimes, the problem is that any given band that has those elements that make them great, or make them unique, still haven't actually found their sound by the time they record their first album. By the second album, they usually know, and from there on out, you get a discography of tight, well written songs. Then you go back to the first one, and it just sounds like a mish mash of ideas that sound a little amateurish.

I wish WDADU was released BEFORE they had to change their band name. Then it could be considered the one and only Majesty album, and not 'Dream Theater'.

Quote from: Lucidity on August 13, 2013, 12:33:18 PM

Yes! I wish DT wrote more shorter songs like this; very compact, strong, and proggy.

Proggy? Are we listening to the same song? I mean, yes, it has its prog elements, but there are other songs on the album that are compact, strong and proggy. CIAW, IMO, stands out because of its badass guitar riffage.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 13, 2013, 12:40:26 PM
Well, I guess what I meant was that, despite the compact structure and short length, it is still thoroughly a DT song and not just a generic rocker. I think the heavy and proggy elements are blended very well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 12:42:43 PM
Ah yes. That makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
STOP AGREEING ON STUFF. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.  :censored :censored :censored




LSOAD is my least favorite song from Awake and is in my bottom 10 songs from DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 01:29:20 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
STOP AGREEING ON STUFF. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.  :censored :censored :censored




LSOAD is my least favorite song from Awake and is in my bottom 10 songs from DT.

:lol

LSOAD used to be pretty boring for me, but then I discovered the dissonance+resolution in the harmonies on the last chorus and I was like :dangerwillrobinson: THIS IS AMAZING. Literally changed the entire song just because of that one moment in the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lyfeternl on August 13, 2013, 01:33:03 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
STOP AGREEING ON STUFF. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.  :censored :censored :censored

Agreed.










...oh wait...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
STOP AGREEING ON STUFF. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.  :censored :censored :censored




LSOAD is my least favorite song from Awake and is in my bottom 10 songs from DT.

I agree.  :lol



Seriously, no, I don't have anything against LSOAD, but I prefer ballads like Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, and Through Her Eyes.

It's funny though, DT has always gone on record saying that LSOAD was inspired by bands like U2. People still love it, but then they hear stuff on Octavarium and be like, "Man, that sounds like something U2 would do! If I wanted to hear U2 I'd listen to U2!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 01:49:53 PM
Is it controversial that I hate Hollow Years? I made a big rant about it in another thread...I feel like the only times people mention it is to say they like it. I seriously might be able to say it's the only DT song I might actually hate...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 01:49:53 PM
Is it controversial that I hate Hollow Years? I made a big rant about it in another thread...I feel like the only times people mention it is to say they like it. I seriously might be able to say it's the only DT song I might actually hate...

That probably IS controversial for the majority, but I agree to an extent.  I don't HATE it, but I probably have listened to every other song on FII more than it, and that's saying something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 13, 2013, 01:55:30 PM
The Enemy Inside is incredibly catchy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 13, 2013, 01:57:22 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 13, 2013, 01:55:30 PM
The Enemy Inside is incredibly catchy.
That's not really controversial... seeing as a majority (including myself) really like it :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 02:03:48 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:54:37 PM
That probably IS controversial for the majority, but I agree to an extent.  I don't HATE it, but I probably have listened to every other song on FII more than it, and that's saying something.

Yeah, FII is the only album I struggle to listen to all the way through. And it's not 100% because of the songwriting, but I also feel like JLB sounds his worst on that album and it bugs me to all hell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 13, 2013, 02:23:10 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 01:49:53 PM
Is it controversial that I hate Hollow Years? I made a big rant about it in another thread...I feel like the only times people mention it is to say they like it. I seriously might be able to say it's the only DT song I might actually hate...

Studio version or LaB? The live version on LaB is fantastic, dat solo!!! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 02:33:58 PM
Oh, I haven't watched my LaB DVD yet....  :-[ Got it as a gift last November and...well, there are several reasons I haven't watched it yet. But they're dumb reasons. Perhaps I will tonight! Oh, but video games....Doctor Who.... D:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 13, 2013, 02:49:19 PM
I want to go back on why I dislike the Awake album and don't understand the love it gets. To me, I&W is DT's best album, because all of the songs have a definite memorable quality that makes all the songs distinct. I can hear a single second of any of the songs and immediately pinpoint which song it is. Even with songs that are constantly changing and that involve a million riffs and solos, I feel like all the songs on I&W have a strong continuity, where every melody is perfectly logical for its place in the song, and every melody fits in with the preceding melody.

Awake, to my ears, sounds like a lot of generic heavy metal riffs thrown together haphazardly. Some of the riffs are good, but it doesn't change the fact that, in my opinion, the melodies on Awake just don't flow together. Every moment on that album has an intangible quality of just... blandness, and blandness that doesn't fit with the blandness that preceded it. It just doesn't click with me.

Now, Awake isn't a bad album, by any means, and every song has at least something likeable about it, but the point I'm trying to make is, according to my ears, the riffs feel thrown together, unlike the perfectly constructed I&W, and many of the melodies seem subpar, while the I&W melodies were all sublime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on August 13, 2013, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 13, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
Does no one else share my absolute eternal love for Caught in a Web?? It's easily my favorite from Awake.

It's a top ten Dream Theater song for me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheSilentHam on August 13, 2013, 03:15:18 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on August 13, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
STOP AGREEING ON STUFF. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONTROVERSIAL.  :censored :censored :censored


It IS controversial for two DTFers to agree on anything  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 13, 2013, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.

Top 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 13, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 13, 2013, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.

Top 1.

Surrounded is pure gold.  :hefdaddy Controversial would be something like "Anna Lee is Top 5, best lyrics ever, best piano lines ever, they should just make that kind of music."  :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 13, 2013, 09:13:01 PM
Quote from: krieger on August 13, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 13, 2013, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: Zydar on August 13, 2013, 06:40:26 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 13, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
Surrounded is easily a top 10 DT song.

Top 5 for me, even.

Top 1.

Surrounded is pure gold.  :hefdaddy Controversial would be something like "Anna Lee is Top 5, best lyrics ever, best piano lines ever, they should just make that kind of music."  :loser:

The song makes me want to shoot an elephant and carve a tower out of one of its tusks.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 13, 2013, 09:13:49 PM
That's pretty damn metal Gmiller, I'm going to have to write that down  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: krieger on August 13, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
Controversial would be something like "Anna Lee is Top 5, best lyrics ever, best piano lines ever, they should just make that kind of music."  :loser:

Still better than The Great Debate or New Millennium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on August 13, 2013, 09:25:38 PM
I'm not crazy about Surrounded.

Also, Raw Dog is a Top 10 song for me. I'm being sincere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 13, 2013, 09:26:22 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 13, 2013, 09:13:49 PM
That's pretty damn metal Gmiller, I'm going to have to write that down  :lol


That's just the way I roll......:saywhen:     


      :lol


But seriously, the lyrics alone in Surrounded are awesome. What I like about them is that they can mean different things to many different people. Then there's the music  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 03:12:33 AM
Anna Lee is one of the best FII songs. And FII contains lots of amazing stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 14, 2013, 03:23:41 AM
Anna Lee is a great song, one of the highlights of FII for me, there is sure some great songs in FII but there is also a lot of skippers. When i think of FII i remember when it came out, i had a lot of expectations and it was underwhelming. The gig at the biskuithalle in Bonn was also far from the performances in the last tours. Then since SFAM, FII has been pretty forgettable for a long time. Fair enough it has aged good for me since i never listened to it so intensively.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 14, 2013, 09:17:38 AM
Anna Lee is very good. Not the most memorable song, but I still prefer it to everything on BC&SL, or maybe not The Count of Tuscany.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 14, 2013, 09:54:53 AM
My controversial opinion of the day: MM's hair looks really weird
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2013, 10:02:19 AM
Quote from: rumborak on August 14, 2013, 09:54:53 AM
My controversial opinion of the day: MM's hair looks really weird

I've seen many others mention that one in other threads, so I don't think that's too controversial. He must have found JP's hair straightener.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 14, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Learning to Live is the best I&W song.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 14, 2013, 10:05:04 AM
Why is it number five then?  :biggrin:

E: I missed the I&W part  :facepalm:.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 14, 2013, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 14, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Learning to Live is the best I&W song.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278

Not really controversial but I couldn't agree more
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 14, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Learning to Live is the best I&W song.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278

That's not controversial. A lot of people consider LTL the best song on IaW.


What's controversial is that I don't even consider LTL a top 5 on IaW, let alone a top 5 for DT. Come at me!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
Eh. I've always found most of Images to be better than Learning To Live. Of course, I'm not knocking on the song because everything on I&W is fantastic.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 14, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Learning to Live is the best I&W song.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278

That's not controversial. A lot of people consider LTL the best song on IaW.


What's controversial is that I don't even consider LTL a top 5 on IaW, let alone a top 5 for DT. Come at me!

\o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2013, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
Eh. I've always found most of Images to be better than Learning To Live. Of course, I'm not knocking on the song because everything on I&W is fantastic.

Being the weakest song on IaW is like being the slowest runner in the Olympic 100m final. You'd still kick everyone else's ass in a race.

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
\o

o/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 10:51:24 AM
LTL is my third favourite on I&W, and probably wouldn't make my top 50 if I made one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 14, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: krieger on August 13, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
Controversial would be something like "Anna Lee is Top 5, best lyrics ever, best piano lines ever, they should just make that kind of music."  :loser:
Still better than The Great Debate or New Millennium.

Fact.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:02:14 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 14, 2013, 10:04:13 AM
Learning to Live is the best I&W song.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278

That's not controversial. A lot of people consider LTL the best song on IaW.


What's controversial is that I don't even consider LTL a top 5 on IaW, let alone a top 5 for DT. Come at me!

But....but...But F#! Whoa, whoa.....whoa?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Well, to that I say, F# your opinion!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Well, to that I say, F# your opinion!  :biggrin:

:clap:

For me, the whole song builds to it. It's the climactic moment, and I love it, and then JP's tremendously beautiful guitar solo starts to slowly bring us back down from that peak. It's amazingly well structured and executed, imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on August 14, 2013, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Because Take the Time is :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:11:14 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 12:05:26 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Well, to that I say, F# your opinion!  :biggrin:

:clap:

For me, the whole song builds to it. It's the climactic moment, and I love it, and then JP's tremendously beautiful guitar solo starts to slowly bring us back down from that peak. It's amazingly well structured and executed, imo.
The guitar solo is great. The F# is just a high note. If I just wanted high notes, I'd go listen to power metal. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:11:14 PM
The guitar solo is great. The F# is just a high note. If I just wanted high notes, I'd go listen to power metal. :P

:facepalm: To call an F#5, sung by a male, with excellent technique, beautiful tone, and stellar placement within the structure of the song, just a high note, is.....sigh. Haha it's ok, it doesn't have to be your favorite thing :P But there's a reason most power metal is so boring compared to DT. When that's the highest note sung on the album (or indeed, on any studio album until Octavarium), and it is placed at (what I consider to be) the biggest climax and structural resolution of the piece, that's what makes it so good. It isn't just a high note. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:23:49 PM
Eh.












:P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Hey if the rest of the band is allowed to go all wankery-style on us whenever they want, then so should James be able to (not that he really can anymore...hahaha)! High notes are a singer's (or, tenor's, more accurately) wankery. Well, one form of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 14, 2013, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Because Take the Time Metropolis is :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on August 14, 2013, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:03:39 PM
The F# is not even close to being the best part of I&W. Or even Learning To Live, for that matter.

Because Take the Time Metropolis Under a Glass Moon's high E in the chorus is :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:41:50 PM
:lol  UAGM is probably my least favorite track from Images And Words. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 14, 2013, 12:43:15 PM
I've never listened to When Dream And Day Unite - and i've no intention of listening to it.


Does anyone else think it's a bit mad that there's only 2 of the WDADU line up still in the band ?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:44:07 PM
Listen to WDADU.











Do it.









DO IT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 12:45:37 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 14, 2013, 12:43:15 PM
Does anyone else think it's a bit mad that there's only 2 of the WDADU line up still in the band ?

If by mad you mean crazy, yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 14, 2013, 12:43:15 PM
I've never listened to When Dream And Day Unite - and i've no intention of listening to it.


Does anyone else think it's a bit mad that there's only 2 of the WDADU line up still in the band ?

Since I'm an Opeth fan, nah, not that weird :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:52:59 PM
:lol

Same for me + I'm also a Megadeth fan :lol

And there are some great songs on WDADU
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 12:54:03 PM
The Spirit Carries On is the best song on SFAM.

....

Am I doing this right? :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:54:44 PM
I almost agree with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 12:55:53 PM
I'm a huge fan of their "cheesier" songs. Maybe it's the pop sensibilities in me that still gravitate towards their cheesy ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:56:30 PM
Well, I'm a power metal fan at heart, so I have no problems with cheesiness. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 12:57:15 PM
I was going to agree with that, but then The Dance Of Eternity came up to me and punched me in the face with its rag time solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:57:39 PM
:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:52:59 PM
:lol

Same for me + I'm also a Megadeth fan :lol

And there are some great songs on WDADU

There certainly are! I go with Ninja's assertion. LISTEN TO WDADU. NAO.   :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
Yeah, even if you don't like it, it's only about an hour out of your day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
IN THE AAAFTERLIIFE :metal


Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
Yeah, even if you don't like it, it's only about an hour out of your day.

*insert random "dream and day" joke here*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 12:56:30 PM
Well, I'm a power metal fan at heart, so I have no problems with cheesiness. :lol

 :tup

It's also really uplifting and emotional, and it delivers after such an emotional build-up.

Similarly, Octavarium is a fucking incredible song, and Intervals --> Razor's Edge is one of the most perfect pieces of music DT has ever penned.

Edit: In my opinion. I sound really big-headed in these posts. xD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 01:07:03 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:52:59 PM
:lol

Same for me + I'm also a Megadeth fan :lol

And there are some great songs on WDADU

There certainly are! I go with Ninja's assertion. LISTEN TO WDADU. NAO.   :metal

Although, if he listened to Live at the Marquee, Live at Budokan and Score, he's heard the bare essentials of WDADU anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:07:53 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 01:07:03 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:52:59 PM
:lol

Same for me + I'm also a Megadeth fan :lol

And there are some great songs on WDADU

There certainly are! I go with Ninja's assertion. LISTEN TO WDADU. NAO.   :metal

Although, if he listened to Live at the Marquee, Live at Budokan and Score, he's heard the bare essentials of WDADU anyway.

Sorry to commandeer the conversation, but I have a question. If I've already listened to Score, which of the WDADU songs should I still listen to?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 01:12:40 PM
All of them. But The Killing Hand is my favorite, Charlie's weak high note at the end notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 01:07:03 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 14, 2013, 12:52:59 PM
:lol

Same for me + I'm also a Megadeth fan :lol

And there are some great songs on WDADU

There certainly are! I go with Ninja's assertion. LISTEN TO WDADU. NAO.   :metal

Although, if he listened to Live at the Marquee, Live at Budokan and Score, he's heard the bare essentials of WDADU anyway.

Good point! The recordings on Marquee are freaking AMAZING imo, James is at his height of prowess. There's a couple funky ornamentations he does that really don't fit (like trying to make TKH change to major before it is supposed to....wtf, man?? :lol ), but his voice is stellar.

Someone confirm for me cause I can't check right now, but aren't JLB's ridiculous high screams throughout TKH high G's?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 01:46:14 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:07:53 PM
Sorry to commandeer the conversation, but I have a question. If I've already listened to Score, which of the WDADU songs should I still listen to?

Well, Score had Afterlife. Personally, I'd say if you listen to "The Killing Hand", "Ytsejam", "A Fortune In Lies" and "Only A Matter Of Time" (in that order of priority) you've heard all that's really worth hearing on the album. Then maybe "Status Seeker" but the other 2 are kind of neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:51:56 PM
Thanks, TGP. I'll check out the others out then! I'd assume that listening to the versions from WDADU would be better than any live performances or anything I might stumble across?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
Well, personally, like someone mentioned, the best version of The Killing Hand is probably on Live at the Marquee album. I mean, personally, I enjoy listening to JLB versions more in general. And WDADU wasn't that well recorded anyway, so it's not like you'll get full on super high studio quality out of it.
If you just wanted to hear all the songs from the album, I'd say just go for When Dream And Day Reunite for convenience sake.

Plus I'm sure there's gonna be a few people here who'd say, "What? You can you leave out the other two songs! They're my favorite! TGP is wrong!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:51:56 PM
Thanks, TGP. I'll check out the others out then! I'd assume that listening to the versions from WDADU would be better than any live performances or anything I might stumble across?

Imo, the live performances on Marquee are much better than the WDADU versions. Marquee only has A Fortune in Lies and Killing Hand, though. I've heard some people say that they think Dominici sings A Fortune in Lies better because he has more finesse than JLB. I can see where they're coming from, because on Marquee JLB is kinda just balls to the walls on most everything! But I like it that way, and I honestly like the sound of all the instruments and the mix from Marquee better than WDADU. I agree Killing Hand is the best of the album, though.

While I prefer JLB's recordings on Marquee, I actually prefer listening to Dominici on WDADU rather than JLB on WDADRU because JLB just... :/ It's a little sad. It was recorded at probably the worst point for him, vocally.

You should listen to the entire original album, if you want the right to say you're a true DT fan :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:20:58 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
While I prefer JLB's recordings on Marquee, I actually prefer listening to Dominici on WDADU rather than JLB on WDADRU because JLB just... :/ It's a little sad. It was recorded at probably the worst point for him, vocally.

It's not that bad, and I highly doubt it was the worst point for him. I'd imagine the worst point would be right after the accident, when he constantly had on and off days.

On WDADRU his voice didn't crack or anything, so it was a good day for him. Of course, it was the end of an otherwise typical 3 hour set, but he sounds just fine, IMO.

If you really want to hear him at his worst, just listen to this performance of Another Day, from 1999. God, it hurts my throat just listening to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BzBdALjpS8c&t=2117

BTW, if I'm not allowed to post that particular concert on here, feel free to edit it out, mods. But I'm pretty sure this isn't from any official release or official bootleg or anything, so it's okay, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 01:51:56 PM
Thanks, TGP. I'll check out the others out then! I'd assume that listening to the versions from WDADU would be better than any live performances or anything I might stumble across?

Imo, the live performances on Marquee are much better than the WDADU versions. Marquee only has A Fortune in Lies and Killing Hand, though. I've heard some people say that they think Dominici sings A Fortune in Lies better because he has more finesse than JLB. I can see where they're coming from, because on Marquee JLB is kinda just balls to the walls on most everything! But I like it that way, and I honestly like the sound of all the instruments and the mix from Marquee better than WDADU. I agree Killing Hand is the best of the album, though.

While I prefer JLB's recordings on Marquee, I actually prefer listening to Dominici on WDADU rather than JLB on WDADRU because JLB just... :/ It's a little sad. It was recorded at probably the worst point for him, vocally.

You should listen to the entire original album, if you want the right to say you're a true DT fan :biggrin:

That's sold it for me then. I'll have to get ahold of it to listen to it, even though my JLB fangirl heart will be saddened by not hearing his vocals. :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:22:39 PM
WDADRU was not James' worst show by far, but it isn't his best either. His vocals have gotten a lot better since then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
That's sold it for me then. I'll have to get ahold of it to listen to it, even though my JLB fangirl heart will be saddened by not hearing his vocals. :\

Well, after listening to it, nobody's stopping you from listening to it again from JLB on the Reunite performance, or other WDADU performances from various live shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Solitary Shell is really, really great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Solitary Shell is really, really great.

But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say 'the best'. So definitely controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:29:53 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
That's sold it for me then. I'll have to get ahold of it to listen to it, even though my JLB fangirl heart will be saddened by not hearing his vocals. :\

Think of it this way: If you discover all the songs from WDADU from the original recording, listen a few times, pick some favorites, and then RE-discover how amazing those songs become when you find a better recording of JLB doing it, it'll be an amazing experience! :)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Solitary Shell is really, really great.

But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say 'the best'. So definitely controversial.
Well, I consider 6DOIT as being one song, and Solitary Shell is definitely one of the best parts of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:34:12 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.

:tup !!! Yeah! That's like one of those hidden favorites in the back of my head! It's one of the only Dream Theater songs that I absolutely cannot resist singing along to EVERY time I hear it :) And even though the song isn't exactly happy and positive in it's lyrical content, the music is sooooo uplifting for me. Will bring me out of almost any slump :)

And just to say it, with my classical background, SDOIT is a single piece of music, with 8 movements. Song is actually a specific form of music, so it's not technically correct, but I tend to use song and movement interchangeably with those such as Solitary Shell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:34:41 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Well, I consider 6DOIT as being one song, and Solitary Shell is definitely one of the best parts of the song.

I'm not denying that.

Of course, it follows Test That Stumped Them All, and Goodnight Kiss, which I think are the low points of the suite, so Solitary Shell really shines after sitting through those two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:20:58 PM
It's not that bad, and I highly doubt it was the worst point for him. I'd imagine the worst point would be right after the accident, when he constantly had on and off days.

On WDADRU his voice didn't crack or anything, so it was a good day for him. Of course, it was the end of an otherwise typical 3 hour set, but he sounds just fine, IMO.

If you really want to hear him at his worst, just listen to this performance of Another Day, from 1999. God, it hurts my throat just listening to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BzBdALjpS8c&t=2117

BTW, if I'm not allowed to post that particular concert on here, feel free to edit it out, mods. But I'm pretty sure this isn't from any official release or official bootleg or anything, so it's okay, right?

His voice definitely cracks at several points in WDADRU. Definitely not as bad as those cracks in that recording of Another Day, but they are cracks. But the worse part on WDADRU is that he's out of tune so much. The melodies that worked decently for Charlie's voice don't work so well in James' voice, especially when he's not at the top of his game. I wanted to like WDADRU more than the original, so much, but every time I try to listen to it in the original's place, I just can't do it. Maybe I need to make an amalgam collection of the ones from Marquee, Score, WDADRU, and WDADU, picking the very best overall version of each song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 14, 2013, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Solitary Shell is really, really great.

My friend who loves Peter Gabriel said it's just a copy of Solsbury Hill. So I had a listen and honestly - I prefer Solitary Shell. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 02:40:16 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:20:58 PM
It's not that bad, and I highly doubt it was the worst point for him. I'd imagine the worst point would be right after the accident, when he constantly had on and off days.

On WDADRU his voice didn't crack or anything, so it was a good day for him. Of course, it was the end of an otherwise typical 3 hour set, but he sounds just fine, IMO.

If you really want to hear him at his worst, just listen to this performance of Another Day, from 1999. God, it hurts my throat just listening to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BzBdALjpS8c&t=2117

BTW, if I'm not allowed to post that particular concert on here, feel free to edit it out, mods. But I'm pretty sure this isn't from any official release or official bootleg or anything, so it's okay, right?

His voice definitely cracks at several points in WDADRU. Definitely not as bad as those cracks in that recording of Another Day, but they are cracks. But the worse part on WDADRU is that he's out of tune so much. The melodies that worked decently for Charlie's voice don't work so well in James' voice, especially when he's not at the top of his game. I wanted to like WDADRU more than the original, so much, but every time I try to listen to it in the original's place, I just can't do it. Maybe I need to make an amalgam collection of the ones from Marquee, Score, WDADRU, and WDADU, picking the very best overall version of each song.

Charlie was amazing on WDADRU, though. At least the few parts he sang.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
The melodies that worked decently for Charlie's voice don't work so well in James' voice, especially when he's not at the top of his game.

Well, I think the main problem is that for the most part, the vocal melodies on WDADU weren't very well written. It's by far the most amateurish sounding aspect of the entire album. If they had better vocal melodies and a singer whose voice better fit the kind of notes they wanted to hit, the whole album would have sounded so much better.
Nothing against Charlie's voice, but I completely agree with MP when he said that Charlie's range doesn't suit this genre of music. I'd love to hear Charlie do a Jazz album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:46:18 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.

I don't know if I'd say one of the best EVER, but it's certainly one of my favorites. :biggrin:

Quote from: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 02:29:53 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
That's sold it for me then. I'll have to get ahold of it to listen to it, even though my JLB fangirl heart will be saddened by not hearing his vocals. :\

Think of it this way: If you discover all the songs from WDADU from the original recording, listen a few times, pick some favorites, and then RE-discover how amazing those songs become when you find a better recording of JLB doing it, it'll be an amazing experience! :)

Ooh, I like that plan! :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 02:50:59 PM
You should get a copy of "When Dream And James Unite". Just sayin'  :tup

Quite easy to obtain, but if you have any trouble with it, request it in the bootleg thread and it will be uploaded. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:57:26 PM
Quote from: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 02:50:59 PM
You should get a copy of "When Dream And James Unite". Just sayin'  :tup

Quite easy to obtain, but if you have any trouble with it, request it in the bootleg thread and it will be uploaded. :)
That sounds really cool. I've just searched for it but other than a few bootleg info sites, I can't find the bootleg itself. I might just request it there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
Quote from: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 02:50:59 PM
You should get a copy of "When Dream And James Unite". Just sayin'  :tup

Quite easy to obtain, but if you have any trouble with it, request it in the bootleg thread and it will be uploaded. :)

What is this?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 14, 2013, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 02:59:12 PM
Quote from: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 02:50:59 PM
You should get a copy of "When Dream And James Unite". Just sayin'  :tup

Quite easy to obtain, but if you have any trouble with it, request it in the bootleg thread and it will be uploaded. :)

What is this?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 14, 2013, 03:55:55 PM
It's a bootleg, I believe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 04:03:02 PM
Yeah, it's a recollection of live performances of the WDADU songs by JLB from the early days (that is 92-93 with a single one from 94), plus some other 92 goodies. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
How's the quality?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 04:14:27 PM
Ranges from good to not so good. But good for the most. Keep in mind that it's audience recordings from 93, you can't expect LATM quality.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 04:15:25 PM
Quote from: wasteland on August 14, 2013, 04:14:27 PM
Ranges from good to not so good. But good for the most. Keep in mind that it's audience recordings from 93, you can't expect LATM quality.

Right... So I don't think I'll bother.   :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on August 14, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
My favorite dt song is anna lee.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 14, 2013, 05:28:31 PM
Quote from: Polis on August 14, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
My favorite dt song is anna lee.

Can someone explain to me why this is so controversial? I mean, it isn't my favorite song by any stretch, but the amount of hate I see for this song seems disproportionate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on August 14, 2013, 05:44:05 PM
I don't know that I've really seen all that much hate for Anna Lee.  I've seen some hate, but I think most people are more indifferent to it than hateful of it. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: johncal on August 14, 2013, 06:04:07 PM
Ok, here's the deal. I got into DT in the Rudess years starting with SDOIT. Even though I went back and listened to the older stuff, Images and words, etc., (although I like the old stuff), I really prefer the newer stuff much more. It just suits my listening preferences a lot more. I guess if I had started with the really old stuff, I would like it more, but I don't.

To me the new stuff, ADTOE in particular is MUCH better than any of the older stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on August 15, 2013, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Correct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ArchVile on August 15, 2013, 05:18:47 AM
anally
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on August 15, 2013, 08:28:05 AM
Quote from: ArchVile on August 15, 2013, 05:18:47 AM
anally

Quality comment, bro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: docsp76 on August 15, 2013, 12:40:27 PM
Six Degrees, TOT, Oct are my favorite albums they've put out. I can't really listen to SFAM back anymore. They just haven't aged well for me. Six Degrees and BC&SL have my favorite heavy guitar tones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JohnnyLayne on August 16, 2013, 12:34:17 AM
I know DT has been criticized in the past for the obvious influences in some songs (Never Enough), but what about DT being in the inspiration corner for other bands.

Just a few minutes ago, I stumbled upon this song from brazillian band Oficina G3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96j3foSEZ5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96j3foSEZ5Q)

 :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 16, 2013, 01:51:01 AM
Quote from: jsem on August 15, 2013, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Correct.

It's not a song, it's a movement!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 16, 2013, 01:51:01 AM
It's not a song, it's a movement!

Unless you count (of tuscany) Solitary Shell (Single Edit) from the Greatest Hit compilation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 16, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
At least we can agree that it's a track  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 16, 2013, 03:05:55 AM
Quote from: serrano on August 16, 2013, 03:00:43 AM
At least we can agree that it's a track ;)

:itsatrap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 16, 2013, 03:11:21 AM
 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on August 16, 2013, 03:14:59 AM
This is our track. It's a track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 16, 2013, 03:57:58 AM
Agreed with SS, disagreed with GK being a weak point. For me, those weak points are WIMH, TTTSTA and LT. Both ATCs and SS are truly masterpieces.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 16, 2013, 04:05:55 AM
IMO the only weakness of SDOIT is THE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BOW DOWN TO ITS ALMIGHTY PERFECTION. :mtmte:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 16, 2013, 04:25:30 AM
Without even mentioning disc 1, the weak points of SDOIT for me are the Overture (:facepalm:), WIMH, TTTSTA and Losing Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on August 16, 2013, 05:39:51 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 16, 2013, 01:51:01 AM
Quote from: jsem on August 15, 2013, 05:16:30 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Correct.

It's not a song, it's a movement!
I know it's a movement within SDOIT, but it can be seen as a song and be judged by its own merit. Once done that way, I'd put it as a top 5 song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 16, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I also think Overture is one of the best things DT have ever composed. Maybe not above top 20 or so for me, but from a songwriting/musical perspective, it is just fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2013, 09:48:04 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 16, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I also think Overture is one of the best things DT have ever composed. Maybe not above top 20 or so for me, but from a songwriting/musical perspective, it is just fantastic.

I think it's a hell of a lot better when performed by a real orchestra. But yes, it's a great piece of composition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on August 16, 2013, 10:08:01 PM
I don't think so. I was not as blown away when I heard it performed by only the orchestra in NY. Would've been cooler if the band  was playing along with them.  It needs to sound more like the studio version basically!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2013, 01:44:11 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 16, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I also think Overture is one of the best things DT have ever composed. Maybe not above top 20 or so for me, but from a songwriting/musical perspective, it is just fantastic.

:tup I concur. I think of SDOIT overall as their "melodic" epic, with ACOS being more of their modern prog epic, Octavarium more like their classic prog epic, and ITPOE as the metal epic. And Illumination Theory might be the cinematic epic, I guess?
But back to SDOIT, the melodies and songwriting are among DT's best, which is why SDOIT is perhaps my favourite DT song. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 17, 2013, 02:16:14 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2013, 09:48:04 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 16, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I also think Overture is one of the best things DT have ever composed. Maybe not above top 20 or so for me, but from a songwriting/musical perspective, it is just fantastic.

I think it's a hell of a lot better when performed by a real orchestra. But yes, it's a great piece of composition.

I think it would sound a hell of a lot better if it were performed by a better sounding real orchestra  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pocket Fulla Shells on August 18, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Images and Words is their weakest album to date - it lacks a truly great song in my eyes and Metropolis is horribly overrated. If anything, James LaBrie is the star of that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 18, 2013, 09:44:10 AM
I've been a DT fan for 4 years and have never seen anyone call I&W the weakest album before :omg: Well, there's a first time for everything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 18, 2013, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: Pocket Fulla Shells on August 18, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Images and Words is their weakest album to date - it lacks a truly great song in my eyes and Metropolis is horribly overrated. If anything, James LaBrie is the star of that song.

And we have a winner, people! :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 18, 2013, 10:01:46 AM
Not the weakest, but definitely the fourth weakest. And if it wasn't for   Metropolis and UAGM, it would be the third weakest for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 18, 2013, 10:05:48 AM
IaW wasn't even the weakest DT album by the time it was released. :lol


I just don't understand.




I just don't understand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 18, 2013, 10:10:42 AM
But it already was the second weakest ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 18, 2013, 10:25:02 AM
I haven't heard the debut - but Awake is pretty much the only album I can't listen to all the way through.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 18, 2013, 10:26:08 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 18, 2013, 10:10:42 AM
But it already was a top 2 album :)
Fixed ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 18, 2013, 10:28:53 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 18, 2013, 10:25:02 AM
I haven't heard the debut - but Awake is pretty much the only album I can't listen to all the way through.

You have never listened to When Dream And  Day Unite?  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 18, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
Never. I always put a song on then the production and singing just kills it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 18, 2013, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 18, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
Never. I always put a song on then the production and singing just kills it.

Oh, but you know the songs, right? If that's so, then I'm alright with that, I never listen to the original disc either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 18, 2013, 10:42:44 AM
I am aware of their existence and place in the overall DreamTheater canon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 18, 2013, 11:19:51 AM
You can't listen to Awake all the way through? :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Boomr on August 18, 2013, 11:59:25 AM
Quote from: Pocket Fulla Shells on August 18, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Images and Words is their weakest album to date - it lacks a truly great song in my eyes and Metropolis is horribly overrated. If anything, James LaBrie is the star of that song.

But, but...Swimming in a lake of fire! ..... ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 18, 2013, 12:40:13 PM
Quote from: The Boomr on August 18, 2013, 11:59:25 AM
Quote from: Pocket Fulla Shells on August 18, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Images and Words is their weakest album to date - it lacks a truly great song in my eyes and Metropolis is horribly overrated. If anything, James LaBrie is the star of that song.

But, but...Swimming in a lake of fire! ..... ???

He likes Rage Against the Machine. What do you expect? :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 19, 2013, 01:17:04 AM
Thought I didn't have many at first, but looking back... Well, here we go.

Dominici sounds good on Afterlife, and actually a large portion of WDADU. I just don't think he sounds good live.

Which brings me to another point, I've never listened to WDADU from beginning to end.

These Walls is overrated.

Space Dye Vest is overrated. Slightly.

SFAM I feel loses it's shine quickly compared to other DT albums, but each individual song is great.

Train of Thought as a whole is cumbersome and a bit boring, despite being on the shorter side. Again, I like each individual song.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 19, 2013, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 19, 2013, 01:17:04 AM
Thought I didn't have many at first, but looking back... Well, here we go.

Dominici sounds good on Afterlife, and actually a large portion of WDADU. I just don't think he sounds good live.

Which brings me to another point, I've never listened to WDADU in full.

These Walls is overrated.

Space Dye Vest is overrated. Slightly.

SFAM is great for the first couple of listens, but VERY quickly loses it's shine as a whole. Almost more so than any other DT album. I think the songs individually are great though.

Train of Thought as a whole is cumbersome and a bit boring, despite being on the shorter side. Again, I like each individual song.

 :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 09:10:18 AM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 19, 2013, 01:17:04 AM
Thought I didn't have many at first, but looking back... Well, here we go.

Dominici sounds good on Afterlife, and actually a large portion of WDADU. I just don't think he sounds good live.

Which brings me to another point, I've never listened to WDADU in full.

These Walls is overrated.

Space Dye Vest is overrated. Slightly.

SFAM is great for the first couple of listens, but VERY quickly loses it's shine as a whole. Almost more so than any other DT album. I think the songs individually are great though.

Train of Thought as a whole is cumbersome and a bit boring, despite being on the shorter side. Again, I like each individual song.

Disagreed with all of this. Apart from the Dominici statement and me loving the individual songs as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 19, 2013, 09:19:03 AM
I might listen to individual songs from the latter albums more, but as a whole, When Dream and Day Unite is better than Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on August 19, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
Quote from: Zook on August 19, 2013, 09:19:03 AM
I might listen to individual songs from the latter albums more, but as a whole, When Dream and Day Unite is better than Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds & Silver Linings.


I agree 100% with this statement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on August 19, 2013, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 18, 2013, 09:44:32 AM
Quote from: Pocket Fulla Shells on August 18, 2013, 09:39:58 AM
Images and Words is their weakest album to date - it lacks a truly great song in my eyes and Metropolis is horribly overrated. If anything, James LaBrie is the star of that song.

And we have a winner, people! :D

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on August 19, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

YES.

No
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 12:16:52 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 19, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

YES.

No

Yes
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
SFAM is way too concept-y and is one of their worst albums.  Reminds me of Tales of Topographic Oceans by Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Blackfield on August 19, 2013, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
SFAM is way too concept-y and is one of their worst albums.  Reminds me of Tales of Topographic Oceans by Yes.

Sometimes I think freedom of speech is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 01:27:14 PM
You asked for controversy...I'll give you controversy.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 19, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: Blackfield on August 19, 2013, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
SFAM is way too concept-y and is one of their worst albums.  Reminds me of Tales of Topographic Oceans by Yes.

Sometimes I think freedom of speech is a bad idea.
:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 19, 2013, 01:45:24 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 19, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.
YES.
No
IWBY isn't that bad, it's probably my favorite U2 song :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 19, 2013, 02:09:07 PM
Quote from: ? on August 19, 2013, 01:45:24 PM
IWBY isn't that bad, it's probably my favorite U2 song :neverusethis:

Oh come on, now. I Walk Beside You is better than any song U2 ever put out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aXygnus on August 19, 2013, 02:34:07 PM
The Answer Lies Within is my favorite song off Octavarium other than the title-track itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 19, 2013, 02:35:30 PM
These Walls is my favorite Dream Theater song. Ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 19, 2013, 02:39:46 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 19, 2013, 02:35:30 PM
These Walls is my favorite Dream Theater song. Ever.

Mine is either Octavarium or Lines In The Sand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 19, 2013, 02:56:15 PM
Quote from: aXygnus on August 19, 2013, 02:34:07 PM
The Answer Lies Within is my favorite song off Octavarium other than the title-track itself.

Yesyesyes. Such a great song. So underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 03:51:42 PM
Quote from: Blackfield on August 19, 2013, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
SFAM is way too concept-y and is one of their worst albums.  Reminds me of Tales of Topographic Oceans by Yes.

Sometimes I think freedom of speech is a bad idea.

Sometimes I agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on August 19, 2013, 04:01:31 PM
Yeah Yeah, and SDOIT really reminds me of Relayer!

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Quote from: FourthHorseman on August 19, 2013, 04:01:31 PM
Yeah Yeah, and SDOIT really reminds me of Relayer!

 :facepalm:

Gates of Delirium is awesome!  Topographic Oceans, on the other hand, seems to just meander aimlessly through a nebulous idea that was never fully developed.  It sounds like they didn't have a plan and just started jamming.  With SFAM, all the songs just seem to blend together as one--but not in a good way like the title track of SDOIT.  They blend together because they're all of the same narrow tone/mood/sound/whatever and there's little dynamism in this area, and there's not enough hook-based parts to give it some shape.  There has to be a balance between having a hook/riff and jamming/meandering in between.  Close to the Edge is perfect in this balance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on August 19, 2013, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Quote from: FourthHorseman on August 19, 2013, 04:01:31 PM
Yeah Yeah, and SDOIT really reminds me of Relayer!

 :facepalm:

Gates of Delirium is awesome!  Topographic Oceans, on the other hand, seems to just meander aimlessly through a nebulous idea that was never fully developed.  It sounds like they didn't have a plan and just started jamming.  With SFAM, all the songs just seem to blend together as one--but not in a good way like the title track of SDOIT.  They blend together because they're all of the same narrow tone/mood/sound/whatever and there's little dynamism in this area, and there's not enough hook-based parts to give it some shape.  There has to be a balance between having a hook/riff and jamming/meandering in between.  Close to the Edge is perfect in this balance.


Okay, I see what you're getting at.

For me, SFAM has the hooks, and is very dynamic. But for some reason I find it very unlistenable.

Close to the Edge is the essence of life and nature itself put into music over 40 minutes. The only thing that DT has done that I compare to CTTE is Images and Words. Maybe.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily controversial, but Breaking All Illusions is a top 5 song for me. Probably #4 behind LTL, ACOS, and 8VM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 19, 2013, 11:19:43 PM
Quote from: Blackfield on August 19, 2013, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: jsbru on August 19, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
SFAM is way too concept-y and is one of their worst albums.  Reminds me of Tales of Topographic Oceans by Yes.

Sometimes I think freedom of speech is a bad idea.

:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 20, 2013, 12:04:37 AM
Quote from: FourthHorseman on August 19, 2013, 09:59:45 PM
Okay, I see what you're getting at.

For me, SFAM has the hooks, and is very dynamic. But for some reason I find it very unlistenable.

Close to the Edge is the essence of life and nature itself put into music over 40 minutes. The only thing that DT has done that I compare to CTTE is Images and Words. Maybe.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily controversial, but Breaking All Illusions is a top 5 song for me. Probably #4 behind LTL, ACOS, and 8VM.

Yeah, there are some hooks, etc.  But it's more that both albums (Tales, SFAM) were both based entirely on one idea (Tales on four tenants of Buddhism, SFAM on one song).  Both bands had a much smaller amount of material and tried to stretch it out into an epic album (Rick Wakeman pretty much temporarily quit the band he was so frustrated with TOTO, saying that there was a few good parts, but there was so much filler in between that they just put in to make it longer, and Metropolis part 2 was based on a 20-minute song they basically turned into an album).  There's good parts of each album, to be sure, but the filler in between seems to drag on and not be very creative or interesting.

I don't actually think SFAM is their worst album.  SC or BC&SL probably are.  But I think it's down there for me.  I would have rather they stuck with Metropolis Part 2 as just a 20-minute song and then added in some other unreleased material or composed totally different songs stylistically.  I'm not a fan of concept albums in general, as I think they just limit (rather than enhance) the band's creativity.  If you have 1:20:00 minutes of music based on the same concept, it just starts to drag on and on and isn't very dynamic or stylistically diverse.  Although I am a pretty big fan of the SDOIT title track, so it can be done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 20, 2013, 02:27:36 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 19, 2013, 02:09:07 PM
Quote from: ? on August 19, 2013, 01:45:24 PM
IWBY isn't that bad, it's probably my favorite U2 song :neverusethis:

Oh come on, now. I Walk Beside You is better than any song U2 ever put out.

No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 20, 2013, 02:58:12 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 12:16:52 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on August 19, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: DebraKadabra on December 17, 2012, 08:41:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 17, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
I Walk Beside You is one of the best songs on Octavarium.

YES.

No

Yes

Not just the best song from 8V  but best song from the whole band!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 03:04:40 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 20, 2013, 02:58:12 AM

Not just the best song from 8V  but best song from the whole band!

Let's not get carried away, now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 04:20:37 AM
There is not a single second on SFAM that I would consider to be filler. Okay, maybe the samples/noises outro of Finally Free could be a little shorter, but the actual music? No.



Quote from: adastra
link=topic=35056.msg1652178#msg1652178 date=1376989092
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 12:16:52 PM
*quote pyramid*

Not just the best song from 8V  but best song from the whole band!

No
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 20, 2013, 05:45:57 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 04:20:37 AM
There is not a single second on SFAM that I would consider to be filler. Okay, maybe the samples/noises outro of Finally Free could be a little shorter, but the actual music? No.



Quote from: adastra
link=topic=35056.msg1652178#msg1652178 date=1376989092
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 19, 2013, 12:16:52 PM
*quote pyramid*

Not just the best song from 8V  but best song from the whole band!

No

Umm.. yes? Go somewhere else with your wrong opinions  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 05:51:56 AM
A song that is the fourth best on its album can't possibly be the best by the band ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 20, 2013, 05:56:41 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 03:04:40 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 20, 2013, 02:58:12 AM

Not just the best song from 8V  but best song from the whole band!

Let's not get carried away, now.

I like it but there's just no way that it beats the title track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 20, 2013, 06:03:25 AM
Actually this is the thread for the "wrong" opinions.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 20, 2013, 06:10:10 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 05:51:56 AM
A song that is the fourth best on its album can't possibly be the best by the band ;)

I guess I'm the only who thinks its the best ._.

Quote from: serrano on August 20, 2013, 06:03:25 AM
Actually this is the thread for the "wrong" opinions.  :biggrin:

Haha  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
I like As I Am, more than The Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 20, 2013, 08:55:55 AM
I kinda agree with you chaotic, The Glass prison is a bit too long for my tastes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:17:40 AM
TGP used to be my #1 DT song, now I'm not sure if it's even in my top 20 anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on August 20, 2013, 09:19:20 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:17:40 AM
TGP used to be my #1 DT song, now I'm not sure if it's even in my top 20 anymore.

TGP used to be a top 10 DT song for me as well, but it has since fallen out of my top 20 as I feel it drags on too long; I hardly ever have the urge to listen to it any more  :-\ I'll throw in a controversial opinion in while I'm at it: I'd rather listen to TMoLS at this point and would also rank it higher. I realize the song is longer, but for some reason it just doesn't feel as tiresome to me to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
Me too.

And since we had some I Walk Beside You discussion earlier: I'd rather listen to IWBY instead of TGP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2013, 09:22:23 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
Me too.

And since we had some I Walk Beside You discussion earlier: I'd rather listen to IWBY at this point.

Well now you're just being silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 20, 2013, 09:33:47 AM
I don't even like TGP that much. In fact, it's my least favorite of SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2013, 09:34:30 AM
I thought this was the controversial opinion thread, not the wrong opinion thread. :neverusethis:

TGP is DT's best metal song, easily.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: efx on August 20, 2013, 10:22:10 AM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.

I kind of agree with that.

My own personal "controversial opinion": I just can't get into SFAM. Bought it on release in 99, met the band the same day on LI for a signing. Ended up front row at the Roseland ballroom show for the DVD and still it never clicked with me. I can think of a few reasons why but considering all that I got to experience relating to that album it is a bit strange that it's at the bottom of the albums I listen to from them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 20, 2013, 10:22:54 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 04:20:37 AM
There is not a single second on SFAM that I would consider to be filler. Okay, maybe the samples/noises outro of Finally Free could be a little shorter, but the actual music?

In my opinion, you could lop off the entire first 20 minutes of the album, and dramatically shorten Beyond This Life.  Also, I really do not like The Spirit Carries On.  It seems too much like a color-by-numbers power ballad--of which DT seems to have a few too many in the two albums post-Moore.  I miss ballads like Surrounded and Space Dye Vest.  They're more than just a reverb-y acoustic guitar, a reverb-y piano, and some heartfelt vocals.

For me, the album gets good once Through Her Eyes starts, and crecendos with Home.  At least home uses some different scales and at parts is driven by synth/bass instead of just a distorted guitar, and the female vocals on THE are a sound not yet heard with DT (and a very good idea).  Since Moore left, the band's sound has progressively been getting narrower and narrower, and this album has few exceptions.  Nearly every song after this album is either 1) distorted guitar-driven in a minor scale that changes to diminished during the jam session 2) a reverb-y power ballad with acoustic guitar and piano, or 3) a rock opera composed of the intermixing of both.  I&W and Awake have a number of songs mixed in driven by synth and/or bass: Surrounded, LSOAD, the majority of Scarred, SDV, 6:00, LTL, and parts of TTT.  Post-Moore, the synth and bass have basically moved into a supporting role beefing up a distorted guitar riff, less a few times where they pop their heads out for a cool bass lick or a ragtime solo.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2013, 10:28:11 AM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.

 :\

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 20, 2013, 10:37:41 AM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.

I don't think this is too far off.  Derek had more of a jazzy/bluesy style.  Moore is just all over the place, but his tones definitely stood out more and were more exotic.  Rudess seems to just blend in.  I think the conflict in styles between the keyboard and the band actually adds more to the music rather than less.  They picked JR because he was easy to work with based on LTE, but that's part of the problem.  If everybody in the room is "easy to work with," you start becoming a victim of groupthink, and fall into a creative rut.  A manageable amount of personality/style clashing is good, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nicbor87 on August 20, 2013, 10:48:42 AM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.

Petrucci plays keys?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 20, 2013, 11:06:48 AM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared iOS.
I don't agree with your opinion, but FTFY.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2013, 09:22:23 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
Me too.

And since we had some I Walk Beside You discussion earlier: I'd rather listen to IWBY at this point.

Well now you're just being silly.

I really don't think we will ever agree on anything DT related. TGP is great, but I think it's a bit too long, and for what it is, IWBY is absolutely perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:15:49 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 19, 2013, 08:59:34 AM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 19, 2013, 01:17:04 AM
Thought I didn't have many at first, but looking back... Well, here we go.

Dominici sounds good on Afterlife, and actually a large portion of WDADU. I just don't think he sounds good live.

Which brings me to another point, I've never listened to WDADU in full.

These Walls is overrated.

Space Dye Vest is overrated. Slightly.

SFAM is great for the first couple of listens, but VERY quickly loses it's shine as a whole. Almost more so than any other DT album. I think the songs individually are great though.

Train of Thought as a whole is cumbersome and a bit boring, despite being on the shorter side. Again, I like each individual song.

 :huh:

Sorry Lucien, I know this was your #1  ;D I think it's a great song, and I see why people like it (the chorus is nice), but to me it just sounds kind of generic among the rest of the album. It just never got ahold of me, there's a good number of other DT songs that I haven't caught on either however. Maybe it will grow on me in time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 20, 2013, 12:18:00 PM
Well, I think A Change of Seasons is overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:21:32 PM
I think I have to agree
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
Also, I think TGD is a bit underrated, but I don't really know if that's highly controversial.





 :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
I like As I Am, more than The Glass Prison.

I like The Shattered Fortress more than The Glass Prison.

Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
Also, I think TGD is a bit underrated, but I don't really know if that's highly controversial.
I think its OVERrated. I constantly see people singing praises to it, so I really wouldn't call it underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 20, 2013, 12:29:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
I like As I Am, more than The Glass Prison.
I like The Shattered Fortress more than The Glass Prison.

I like The Root of All Evil more than either of those.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 12:33:11 PM
IMO the twelve step suite got weaker with every song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
Also, I think TGD is a bit underrated, but I don't really know if that's highly controversial.
I think its OVERrated. I constantly see people singing praises to it, so I really wouldn't call it underrated.

But.... But... That intro chord progression!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
But.... But... That intro chord progression!  :metal
Yes, and I'm sure a ton of people here LOVE that chord progression. So the song isn't underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 12:45:41 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
Also, I think TGD is a bit underrated, but I don't really know if that's highly controversial.
I think its OVERrated. I constantly see people singing praises to it, so I really wouldn't call it underrated.

But.... But... That intro chord progression!  :metal

"Being underrated" doesn't mean "being bad" :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 12:45:41 PM
"Being underrated" doesn't mean "being bad" :P

Or overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
Okay, I fucked this up :D

I wanted to write overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 01:08:17 PM
Twas a bit of a jest ::)
 I probably haven't seen all the praise and recognition of this song that others have seen, so until then I feel like it's underrated.
In fact most I've seen is people saying it's overrated, so I think to me it's one of those "so overrated it's underrated" types of deals ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 01:10:55 PM
Twas a bit of a jest ::)
 I probably haven't seen all the praise and recognition of this song that others have seen, so until then I feel like it's underrated.
In fact most I've seen is people saying it's overrated, so I think to me it's one of those "so overrated it's underrated" types of deals ;D

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 20, 2013, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
But.... But... That intro chord progression!  :metal
Yes, and I'm sure a ton of people here LOVE that chord progression. So the song isn't underrated.

Well it's called a controversial opinion for a reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Ytse Jam is my fav DT instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 20, 2013, 10:47:43 PM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Ytse Jam is my fav DT instrumental.

(https://www.gifcrap.com/g2data/albums/Forum/Jeremiah%20Johnson%20nod.gif)

Ytse Jam or SoC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 21, 2013, 12:16:47 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 20, 2013, 09:17:40 AM
TGP used to be my #1 DT song, now I'm not sure if it's even in my top 20 anymore.

Ditto, though I'm sure it doesn't make my top 20, let alone top 50.

Quote from: Nearmyth on August 20, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
Also, I think TGD is a bit underrated.





 :hat

It most definately is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nicbor87 on August 21, 2013, 03:58:21 AM
Here are some opinions:
-SFAM would have been mediocre if they had kept Derek
-ACOS and Razor's Edge are ridiculously overrated
-Count of Tuscany has great lyrics and -BCSL is their second best album to date
-One Last Time > Through Her Eyes > The Spirit Carries On
-Ministry of Lost Souls is too short..........nah, just kidding  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 04:03:09 AM
Quote
-Count of Tuscany has great lyrics and -BCSL is their second best album to date

The Count of Tuscany is nowhere near Octavarium's levels.

A Rite Of Passage is really mediocre.

A Nightmare To Remember is far too long.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 21, 2013, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.

 :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 21, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.


I think their work ethic and their reason to get right out there even when MP wanted to "take a break" will prove you wrong.  They love to make albums and tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Orthogonal on August 21, 2013, 04:36:07 PM
I can see them changing their style over the next decade as they age and are no longer able to perform certain songs at the same level, but to call it quits after 2 more albums? That's a pretty bold prediction. I imagine they are all doing well financially, but probably not to the point that they can retire and live on royalties for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 21, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
I think they're going to do WWRD and just keep going until they physically can't. The only one even close to that age would probably be Jordan, but is keyboard playing really as strenuous as the others?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on August 21, 2013, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 21, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
I think they're going to do WWRD and just keep going until they physically can't. The only one even close to that age would probably be Jordan, but is keyboard playing really as strenuous as the others?

Not to mention, not even he is showing any signs of slowing down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 21, 2013, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Lucien on August 21, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
The only one even close to that age would probably be Jordan, but is keyboard playing really as strenuous as the others?
I don't think it is, there are a lot of famous pianists who pretty much just kept going until they were dead.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 06:21:10 PM
Quote from: YtseBitsySpider on August 20, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
My contraversial opinion (not truth but opinion)

Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT had, followed by Kevin, and finally the beared android.

I definitely prefer Derek to Kevin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 21, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.


I think their work ethic and their reason to get right out there even when MP wanted to "take a break" will prove you wrong.  They love to make albums and tour.

Another two albums = 4 years.  Petrucci & Myung won't even be 50 by then. The rest of them will be mid 50's at most apart from Jordan who will be pushing 60.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on August 21, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
One can only hope Jordan hangs up the cleats and Kevin Moore gets sick of OCI and comes back now that Portnoy's gone.  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 06:25:40 PM
I'd rather Derek came back before Kevin. Much preferred his style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 21, 2013, 06:31:10 PM
Kevin>>>>>Derick
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 21, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.


I think their work ethic and their reason to get right out there even when MP wanted to "take a break" will prove you wrong.  They love to make albums and tour.

Another two albums = 4 years.  Petrucci & Myung won't even be 50 by then. The rest of them will be mid 50's at most apart from Jordan who will be pushing 60.

I don't think age will be the issue necessarily. Then again, remember that video snippet a few years back where JP had to put on some heat braces for his arms, and MP needing massages every day to be able to play? I don't think you can assume the guys are all in perfect health just because we don't hear anything.
But, I think the real reason to stop would be lack of interest from the public. And that I think is realistic 2 albums from now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 21, 2013, 11:15:12 PM
Derek had amazing groove!  Now that Derek is gone from dream theater, So is the groove. and that's a fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 21, 2013, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: adastra on August 21, 2013, 11:15:12 PM
Derek had amazing groove!  Now that Derek is gone from dream theater, So is the groove. and that's a fact.

Um no, still just opinion.


Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 21, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 21, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: 2 more albums after this new one. I'm calling it.


I think their work ethic and their reason to get right out there even when MP wanted to "take a break" will prove you wrong.  They love to make albums and tour.

Another two albums = 4 years.  Petrucci & Myung won't even be 50 by then. The rest of them will be mid 50's at most apart from Jordan who will be pushing 60.

I don't think age will be the issue necessarily. Then again, remember that video snippet a few years back where JP had to put on some heat braces for his arms, and MP needing massages every day to be able to play? I don't think you can assume the guys are all in perfect health just because we don't hear anything.
But, I think the real reason to stop would be lack of interest from the public. And that I think is realistic 2 albums from now.

I think you're mixing up own opinion with public opinion here. DT appears to be remaining very steady in terms of popularity, so I don't think lack of interest will be any reason to stop.
Age or lineup will be the most likely reason, and while their demanding music does have its issues as you've mentioned, I think they'll just start easing up on the balls to the wall stuff, and maybe go lighter on touring and recording, rather than sticking to the 2 year schedule.

And when did this thread turn from controversial opinions to controversial theories anyway?! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 21, 2013, 11:34:48 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 21, 2013, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: adastra on August 21, 2013, 11:15:12 PM
Derek had amazing groove!  Now that Derek is gone from dream theater, So is the groove. and that's a fact.

Um no, still just opinion.


But Someone who knows more than others told me that it is a fact  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Orthogonal on August 22, 2013, 12:17:04 AM
Quote from: rumborak on August 21, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
I don't think age will be the issue necessarily. Then again, remember that video snippet a few years back where JP had to put on some heat braces for his arms, and MP needing massages every day to be able to play? I don't think you can assume the guys are all in perfect health just because we don't hear anything.
But, I think the real reason to stop would be lack of interest from the public. And that I think is realistic 2 albums from now.

Lack of interest? You mean people stop going to concerts and buying the albums? Maybe I'm wrong here, but I thought they were as big as ever right now in terms of fanbase. I don't see that collapsing in the next ~5 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 22, 2013, 07:52:27 AM
After reading some comments in TEI thread, this might be a controversial opinion: I think OTBOA is the best song on ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krieger on August 22, 2013, 08:14:19 AM
Quote from: jsbru on August 21, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
One can only hope Jordan hangs up the cleats and Kevin Moore gets sick of OCI and comes back now that Portnoy's gone.  :D

Altough I love the music KM makes, I really doubt he would return. Besides, I can't see him playing any solo for the rest of his life. Every solo from DT would be removed in the live shows!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 22, 2013, 08:53:43 AM
Quote from: jsbru on August 21, 2013, 06:24:17 PM
One can only hope Jordan hangs up the cleats and Kevin Moore gets sick of OCI and comes back now that Portnoy's gone.  :D
JM will cut his hair before that happens (read: it's impossible) :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 22, 2013, 11:16:13 AM
It still feels to me like DT are still climbing in popularity. This new album may well welcome on board a lot of new fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on August 22, 2013, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

No controversy from me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 22, 2013, 11:30:08 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on August 22, 2013, 11:16:13 AM
It still feels to me like DT are still climbing in popularity. This new album may well welcome on board a lot of new fans.

I agree, and that's awesome :tup
(well not that I agree, but what you mentioned)



Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

Technically, yes. Otherwise? Not sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 22, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: Podaar on August 22, 2013, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

No controversy from me.

Same.
Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 22, 2013, 11:34:41 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 22, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).

I totally agree with this! Imagine trying to find a replacement for JR.... That would certainly be hard!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 22, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 22, 2013, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: Podaar on August 22, 2013, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

No controversy from me.

Same.
Firing Derek for Jordan was the best decision the band ever made (and it worked out best for both parties).
I hold Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess up equally, while Images and Words is my favorite DT album and KM shines and dazzles on it, JR has a shit ton of moments that are just as breathtaking.

DT's never had a shortage of amazing keyboards  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 22, 2013, 11:48:03 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

I agree with this too. Which is why they can never ever capture that same sound again. And a reason why I can appreciate DT for what they are now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 22, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

I think their sound changed quite a bit with Jordan Rudess, but that being said, they sure as hell acquired a whole new signature sound with JR, and it's impossible not to recognize it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on August 22, 2013, 01:07:29 PM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on August 20, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Ytse Jam is my fav DT instrumental.
If it weren't for Eve, I'd agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 22, 2013, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 22, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

I think their sound changed quite a bit with Jordan Rudess, but that being said, they sure as hell acquired a whole new signature sound with JR, and it's impossible not to recognize it.

Exactly. And they have accomplished to change their sound, but still sound like DT. They are recognisable as themselves, whether you listen to I&W or SC or whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
The masterplan was dump Rudess after Six Degrees, get another keyboardist, make two albums, dump the new keyboardist then repeat until forever :rollin

Just joking
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 01:44:45 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
The (dark)masterplan was dump Rudess after Six Degrees, get another keyboardist, make two albums, dump the new keyboardist then repeat until forever :rollin

Just joking

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 23, 2013, 12:35:45 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.

It would be cool to hear where their sound would have evolved to if Derek wasn't fired :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
It would be cool. Considering the kind of stuff Derek did with Planet X, it would have been cool to see him bring that kind of keyboard rockin' to DT. But ah well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 01:45:41 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 12:23:59 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 11:42:08 AM
Quote from: lyfeternl on August 22, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
JR is the best keyboard player DT has had and could not be replaced *raises flameshield for the KM lovers*

I've always thought that when they had Kevin Moore, they had kind of a signature sound (Images, Awake) that they lost and never found again  :'(

But they gained a signature sound with Rudess, and one that I personally much prefer. SFAM and SDOIT are DT's 2 best albums imo, for that very reason.

The two are my favorites DT albums too, but i think the older signature sound was stronger (even FII) and had more emotion and honesty in it, i can't explain it right with words...  :facepalm:
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 01:45:41 AM
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting  :-\

You say that like it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:03:52 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 01:45:41 AM
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting  :-\

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  ::) I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 23, 2013, 02:06:11 AM
That keyboardist matter has been discussed for years without a clear winner. IMO, we should see it separating our opinions in some keyboard fields, for example:

-Soloing: KM
-Atmosphere: KM
-Cool new sounds (also bad new ones): JR
-Technique: JR

Anyway, my opinion is that JR could become better than KM if he stopped his wankery (even when playing piano), specially when soloing. However, he has done some great solos, and also brought that kind of special or different moments that didn't exist with KM: honkytonks, some strange progressions, cool new different sounds and moments... However, KM had always that sound that fitted perfectly in DT. It was not necessarily complex, but was perfect. Also, his soloing was more melodic and less wankery.

In summary, JR has a lot more potential, but KM used his abilities better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:03:52 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 01:45:41 AM
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting  :-\

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  ::) I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does! :lol
Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. :tup It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.
If I wanted to not be listening to "wankery" I'd not listen to DT. :P

And-
-Soloing: JR
-Atmosphere: JR by miles
-Cool new sounds: JR by miles (the others stuck to basic sounds)
-Technique: JR
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:12:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does! :lol
My main issue with that intro isn't that it's wanky, I just don't like the dissonance of it. It's too all over the place, and I guess my ears are just confused by it.
But after seeing JR play it (in his YouTube practice video) I have a hell of a lot more appreciation for it. It's definitely anything but lazy.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. :tup It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.

Amen.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:18:08 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:12:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does! :lol
My main issue with that intro isn't that it's wanky, I just don't like the dissonance of it. It's too all over the place, and I guess my ears are just confused by it.
But after seeing JR play it (in his YouTube practice video) I have a hell of a lot more appreciation for it. It's definitely anything but lazy.


That's fair enough. I don't have a problem with dissonance as long as it sounds good to me, and that one sounds good to me. If they were being lazy, they would be more likely to stick to scales/modes and just play familiar arpeggiated patterns, so dissonance can take more work to write to sound good, because it's not as "safe".

Look at JP's first shred solo in BTL. I recall reading that he wrote that solo to intentionally to not use any notes in key, so it's entirely dissonant, and then play it fast so it works. And to me that does work. It serves the intent of the song, and sounds chaotic in a pleasing way to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:26:55 AM
Other thing i wanna say is, when you heard a classic song, you generally think: "This song is so perfect, i would not change anything in it"
Let me see, pick Under a Glass Moon... i would not change anything in it... It's a perfect song!
The point is, since 8varium, i don't see Dream Theater being able to write "perfect songs" (not all of them, there's some exceptions of course).
Hearing the songs, i have the feeling that something is missing or some section is out-of-place("They could have done better than this")
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:33:36 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:26:55 AM
Other thing i wanna say is, when you heard a classic song, you generally think: "This song is so perfect, i would not change anything in it"
Let me see, pick Under a Glass Moon... i would not change anything in it... It's a perfect song!
The point is, since 8varium, i don't see Dream Theater being able to write "perfect songs" (not all of them, there's some exceptions of course).
Hearing the songs, i have the feeling that something is missing or some section is out-of-place("They could have done better than this")

Well that's just like, your opinion, man!
I'd consider IaW near perfect in that regard (aside from LTL which I have some major issues with), but I'd change almost everything about WDADU, and a lot about Awake too. So still very hit and miss for that era to me.
I wouldn't change a note on SFAM, or SDOIT, and there are plenty of songs on Octavarium onwards I wouldn't change at all either. And when I would, it doesn't have anything to do with JR. I think "I wish this had more JR" a lot more than I've ever thought "I wish this had less JR" (which is extremely rarely).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:35:27 AM
And I personally think they've written plenty of those 'perfect' songs since the 8VM era. In that particular sense of perfect anyway, there have been plenty of songs where I didn't for a second feel like something was missing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:36:43 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:03:52 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 01:47:11 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 01:45:41 AM
After Rudess, there's much more wankery coming along in the songwriting  :-\

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Well, generally, it's lazy... Seems to me like: "don't know what do do in this part, just gonna play a super fast solo"
Of course, there are "exceptions" like, the unison in Blind Faith  ::) I'ts well thought of and not just random notes like the section after the intro of Lost Not Forgotten...

Fast doesn't mean lazy. Personally, I love the intro of LNF, and I've never understood what the fuss is about. I sometimes wonder if people are listening to the same band, because that's what DT does! :lol
Whatever "wankery" SFAM has, I wish they'd do more of that, because to me that album is exactly what I want DT to be doing instrumentally. :tup It's fast, it's fun, it's memorable, and it's distinctively DT.
If I wanted to not be listening to "wankery" I'd not listen to DT. :P

And-
-Soloing: JR
-Atmosphere: JR by miles
-Cool new sounds: JR by miles (the others stuck to basic sounds)
-Technique: JR

Well, the "wankery" in SFAM was Blind Faith level, like, it was not lazy at all, it was carefully written...
I already said that SFAM and SDOIT are my 2 favorites...My beef is with things post-SDOIT... Pick This Dying Soul ending for example... I like that section, upbeat, bass driving it but is all that wankery necessary?

Edit: Petrucci could have written a great solo for that ending
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:33:36 AM
Well that's just like, your opinion, man!

LOL Blob, of course it's my opinion, i'm not stating facts here  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:50:11 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:33:36 AM
Well that's just like, your opinion, man!

LOL Blob, of course it's my opinion, i'm not stating facts here  :lol


It's just a common phrase. Haven't you seen that one before? :lol


Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:36:43 AM
Well, the "wankery" in SFAM was Blind Faith level, like, it was not lazy at all, it was carefully written...
I already said that SFAM and SDOIT are my 2 favorites...My beef is with things post-SDOIT... Pick This Dying Soul ending for example... I like that section, upbeat, bass driving it but is all that wankery necessary?

That last minute? Definitely "no" in that case. :lol
But that was the shred album, so that particular album was intentionally over the top. I can live with that. And I didn't find anything in other songs like ITNOG excessively wanky, though some others do.
Then with Octavarium, they balanced that out. Look at a song like These Walls. That was an extremely tasteful song, with not a single note of excess, and it didn't become overly simple or poppy in the process. Plenty of other examples too, as you'll find examples you'd call excessive. A lot of it just comes down to personal taste.
To me, it's a defining characteristic of DT. Non prog/DT fans might consider a random synth unison in the middle of Metropolis too wanky too. Personally, I don't care. I likes it for what it is! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:56:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

There's no alternate ending, so there's no way of knowing if that section could be improved or not.
I like that ending too, but i imagine, if done differently, they could do even better?
Pick Razor's Edge solo, i can't see a way of improve it, i think it's perfect
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 02:58:14 AM
Ow f*ck, i forgot, Big Lebowski  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 03:07:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 02:33:36 AM

That last minute? Definitely "no" in that case. :lol
But that was the shred album, so that particular album was intentionally over the top. I can live with that. And I didn't find anything in other songs like ITNOG excessively wanky, though some others do.
Then with Octavarium, they balanced that out. Look at a song like These Walls. That was an extremely tasteful song, with not a single note of excess, and it didn't become overly simple or poppy in the process. Plenty of other examples too, as you'll find examples you'd call excessive. A lot of it just comes down to personal taste.
To me, it's a defining characteristic of DT. Non prog/DT fans might consider a random synth unison in the middle of Metropolis too wanky too. Personally, I don't care. I likes it for what it is! :lol

When i said "since 8varium", i meant "post-8varium"
These Walls is very good indeed  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 23, 2013, 03:13:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
I think the ending of TDS is hella fun. They set out to create a fast, intense, heavy balls to the wall album, and that section exemplifies that they achieved what they were going for. Yes, he could have written a great solo, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

This. The ending works perfectly for the song.


And on the subject of TOT: I think that album contains some of the best and most memorable instrumental sections in DT history, despite being full of wankery: Endless Sacrifice, ITNOG, Honor Thy Father (not really much wankery here, but amazing instrumental section nonetheless).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 03:34:27 AM
Except for Vacant. Too much wankery in that one.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2013, 03:39:42 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 23, 2013, 03:07:01 AM
When i said "since 8varium", i meant "post-8varium"
These Walls is very good indeed  :tup

I know, i was just using it as an example of the JR era in general. I also could have said the same thing about Wither, although the album in general is not exactly the best example of DT's restraint.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 23, 2013, 03:44:13 AM
-Soloing: DS
-Atmosphere: KM
-Cool new sounds: JR . I guess he is the only one experimenting with new sounds.
-Technique: JR
-Overall: DS by miles.

WOO-HOOO!  Case closed!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on August 23, 2013, 04:13:46 AM
I loved KevMo more for his songwriting than his keyboard playing. He brought a very different melodic edge to the DT sound, and the band have never been as strong on the songwriting since.

I loved Derek for the fun rock n'roll vibe he brought to DT, kind of like Billy Powell from Lynyrd Skynyrd. Stopped DT from being too pompous and disappearing up their own rear-end (which they sometimes can be in danger of doing).

I love Jordan for his technical virtuosity, and some of the cool new keyboard sounds and arrangements he's brought to DT. I love his "xylophone" sound on the heavy sections, and that "squeaking penguin" sound he uses (how the hell do you describe these noises?) He's also probably the best "fit" for DT.

So in conclusion, all three of them were the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 04:25:43 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on August 23, 2013, 04:13:46 AM
I loved KevMo more for his lyric writing than his keyboard playing.

FTFM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 23, 2013, 04:27:59 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on August 23, 2013, 04:13:46 AM
I loved KevMo more for his songwriting than his keyboard playing. He brought a very different melodic edge to the DT sound, and the band have never been as strong on the songwriting since.

I loved Derek for the fun rock n'roll vibe he brought to DT, kind of like Billy Powell from Lynyrd Skynyrd. Stopped DT from being too pompous and disappearing up their own rear-end (which they sometimes can be in danger of doing).

I love Jordan for his technical virtuosity, and some of the cool new keyboard sounds and arrangements he's brought to DT. I love his "xylophone" sound on the heavy sections, and that "squeaking penguin" sound he uses (how the hell do you describe these noises?) He's also probably the best "fit" for DT.

So in conclusion, all three of them were the best.

This could have been written by me!  I agree on everything except that I don't know what the hell is squeaking penguin sound  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 23, 2013, 05:57:45 AM
Snarling pig?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on August 23, 2013, 06:43:01 AM
I'm at work at the mo - he uses it in Beyond This Life, a kind of staccatto squeak that sort of sound like a stuttering duck. I honestly can't describe it better than that!

And btw I meant KevMo's songwriting not just his lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 23, 2013, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 23, 2013, 05:57:45 AM
Snarling pig?

it's also the intro to Never Enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 23, 2013, 07:13:37 AM
I know what the snarling pig is, I just guessed that's what he meant by "squeaking penguin" :smiley:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 23, 2013, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: adastra on August 23, 2013, 03:44:13 AM
-Soloing: DS
-Atmosphere: KM
-Cool new sounds: JR . I guess he is the only one experimenting with new sounds.
-Technique: JR
-Hair: KM
-Beard: JR
-Overall: DS KM by miles.

This is how I see it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on August 23, 2013, 10:45:27 AM
Here's a semi controversial one...


I wish UAGM and PMU (mainly PMU) sounded heavier on the album. Like they do live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lolzeez on August 23, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I prefer ice cream over cake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 23, 2013, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: Lolzeez on August 23, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
I prefer ice cream over cake.
Sick bastard.
I've never been a real big fan of Ice Cream.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2013, 12:54:17 PM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on August 23, 2013, 06:43:01 AM
I'm at work at the mo - he uses it in Beyond This Life, a kind of staccatto squeak that sort of sound like a stuttering duck. I honestly can't describe it better than that!

And btw I meant KevMo's songwriting not just his lyrics.


I know, that's why I fixed that for ME.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on August 27, 2013, 07:49:17 AM
This really shouldn't be controversial, BUT . . . . WDADU is one of the best albums the band has done. It has JM's best basslines, tons of Petrucci's best riffs and some of MP's best drumming. My favorite review of WDADU, copy/pasted from The Metal Archives:

Now here's an album for which my appreciation grows every day. Look beyond the strange, malnourished production (which I might add, sounds great when you crank it) and the emphatically un-James singer and you'll find one of the coolest damn debuts in metal history. This is insane, intricate, thoughtful, and theatrical power metal of the highest order, a progged-out feast for the ears and mind as these hyperspeed technicians bounce around the studio totally unencumbered by such concerns as restraint and maturity. Unlike later overburdened and underthought platters like Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and Train of Thought, When Dream and Day Unite combines bohemian wankfest excess with structures that support, nay, demand their existence and melodies that pulsate with life and a burning heart full of love for fast, epic heavy metal.

This is like the culmination of early Queensryche and Fates Warning, combining the speed and frightwigged over-the-top neoclassical assault of 'Ryche (think the Queensryche EP or an amphetamized The Warning) with Fates' mist-shrouded mood, complex and bent structures, and overarching impression of size and power. "The Killing Hand" is a damn near awe inspiring example of how to take somebody else's characteristics and then blow them out of proportion and make them into something new and exciting. The blistering solos seem oddly weightless, keys and strings dancing through the night sky as if gravity were no concern. Other than one oddly disconcerting moment where we drop out of a truly amazing riffset into a melodic interlude, this song is a perfect example of how to build tension through dynamics. We've got a delicate intro, big-time power chords, epic vocals over acoustics, start building up the intensity, and then... riffs, riffs, glorious handfuls of golden riffs being tossed around willy-nilly while Dominici skulks around the laboratory mixing strange fizzing chemicals and cackling wildly.

The really effervescent thing about When Dream and Day Unite is how fresh all of the players are. Here's Kevin Moore experimenting with his canny atmospheric work, his regal leads, and of course his majestic and buoyant melodies that will soon bloom into the joyous conglomeration of Images & Words in which he is omnipresent and unforgettable. There's John Myung before producers and band pressures toned him down, providing an unshakeable rhythmic foundation but also playing some of the best bass leads I've ever heard. Seriously, the man is absolutely all over the neck here, refusing to be shunted aside by the traditional lead instruments and doing some jaw-dropping stuff whenever a space opens up. Mike Portnoy, bless his heart, cannot play a wrong beat. Even early on, in spite of the complexity of his play the guy had a great sense of feel and he manages to make his presence known without grandstanding quite as much as he does on later recordings. Check the solid stomp of "The Ones Who Help the Sun" (some of the coolest sounding kicks I've ever heard), the excellent little drum solo in "Ytse Jam", or the schizoid time changes in "Light Fuse and Get Away". And last but not least, Mr. John Petrucci on skullfrying axe-work. This stuff is passionate, headbangable, memorable, and unique and frankly, puts the similarly note-dense Train of Thought leads to shame. Every song has an incredible solo spot, from the swinging guitar heroics of "A Fortune in Lies" (absolutely godly shredding) to the "Afterlife" unison (along with that 'can do no wrong' riff, absolutely spot-on Shea), or in "The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun" where the usual shred showcase seems to go up and up until it explodes and surrounds the listener with shimmering notes aplenty.

Oh, I didn't mention the singer? Well, Charlie's excellent. His voice is willowy as hell and he partakes in one of DT's cheesiest moments "I am the killing haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...", but otherwise the guy does a hell of a job with the material. �Status Seeker" features some extremely passionate delivery, and the man brings life to some really difficult stuff such as Moore's hyperverbose "Only a Matter of Time" and "Light Fuse", as well as the bizarre fandango-thrash of "A Fortune in Lies". I grant you, his voice takes some getting used to and lacks force, but you couldn't ask for more emotion or sincerity than this guy provides. And hell, he's aged better than LaBrie has if the When Dream and Day Reunite DVD is any indication.

Oh, and I should add that lyrically this album is excellent. Although it is a bit stilted and leads to some interesting choices melody-wise, this is some cool poetry and leads to some really memorable lines. In general, obscure lyrics own the hell out of blatant, unimaginative lyrics. I'm looking at you "Endless Sacrifice" and "The Answer Lies Within".

Before I close this review out, I'll go into a little depth on the best track on the CD which is "Only a Matter of Time". While the first seven tracks on this album represent a strange proto-Dream Theater that would only sporadically pop-up in later years ("A Change of Seasons" is the last of the major Fates Warning influence, for example), "Only a Matter of Time" is a test-flight for the shining ebullient epics all over the next album. It begins with a brilliant symphonic keyboard introduction, almost like a fanfare, that gradually fuses with an aching guitar which dovetails nicely into the beginning of the first verse. It is on this song that Moore really defines the role of keyboards in Dream Theater's music. On previous tracks, he is a force and plays an important role in the song but on "Only a Matter of Time" he becomes a dominant force. Moore is absolutely everywhere, weaving brilliant melodies and breaks around his own amazing lyrics. This is a storehouse for some brilliant riffery, each verse given a different riff and vocal phrasing, constantly growing better and better as it rushes towards the massive outro with its imperative keys seeming to scream that time is running out on this stupendous record... the only thing I can about this song is that sometimes it is absolutely breathtaking. And so is this record.

Although they sometimes express some disdain for this record and these songs, and while it is emphatically the least popular Dream Theater record amongst fans, When Dream and Day Unite ranks as one of their absolute best works and is a must for any power, prog, or straight-up heavy metal fan. I tend to stay away from such recommendations, but this record has to face apathy from the band's fanbase and the lead weight of being released under the Dream Theater name, which might bar those who would get the most out of it from giving it a shot. This album rules.

Stand-Outs: "Only a Matter of Time", "A Fortune in Lies", "Light Fuse and Get Away"

- OlympicSharpshooter, July 6th, 2005

Is this guy a former member of this forum or 5/8?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 27, 2013, 08:28:12 AM
WDADU is my 4th favorite album :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
Alright,this is my first post on here so...hi everyone!
My controversial opinions on DT are:

-BC&SL is my favorite DT album.
-Systematic is my second favorite.
-ADTOE is my fourth favorite. (For anyone wondering,SDOIT is the third)
-Prophets of War and Constant Motion are some of the best songs in SC.
-There is no DT song that I don't like,I love them all.(Except the screamed"BUIIILD,MEE UUUP"part in BMUBMD)
Of course some songs are better than others.
-Pull Me Under is not that great of a song.
-ADTOE ballads are the BEST ballads.  ;D
-Octavarium is one of the worst DT albums. (not counting the title track)
-Long DT songs are the best. (that's probably why my favorite album is Black Clouds ;D)

I think I said everything,bye :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 08:47:47 AM
Welcome!

Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Systematic is my second favorite.

Not sure I'd rate it as my 2nd favorite but I think overall it's a fun album with some really great moments.

Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Pull Me Under is not that great of a song.

I sort of agree. I think it's highly overrated. That being said I think it's still a good song, but it's definitely eclipsed by some of DT's better songs.

Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-ADTOE ballads are the BEST ballads.  ;D

Other than BTS I don't like any of the ballads.



In fact, overall, I'm really not a fan of ADTOE. I get what it does, and it does it well, but overall I find the album rather boring. :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:59:13 AM
Quote
I'm really not a fan of ADTOE. I get what it does, and it does it well, but overall I find the album rather boring. :\

Yeah,lots of people think like you about ADTOE,in fact,I posted in the Controversial Opinions thread because of that ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:02:09 AM
Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:59:13 AM
Quote
I'm really not a fan of ADTOE. I get what it does, and it does it well, but overall I find the album rather boring. :\

Yeah,lots of people think like you about ADTOE,in fact,I posted in the Controversial Opinions thread because of that ;D

Really? I always thought I was in the minority. I've seen a lot of love for it so I figured I was weird or something.

Btw love the signature gif. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 09:07:11 AM
Thanks :D
I think it's from OTBOA's music video ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 27, 2013, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on August 27, 2013, 07:49:17 AM
This really shouldn't be controversial, BUT . . . . WDADU is one of the best albums the band has done.

I agree  :metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 27, 2013, 09:19:12 AM
I wouldn't call Pull Me Under overrated even if I didn't like it too much because it doesn't get a massive amount of love on this forum, at least compared to most I&W songs. In the latest (still unfinished) DT survivor PMU was the second song to be voted out from I&W.
Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-ADTOE is my fourth favorite. (For anyone wondering,SDOIT is the third)
-ADTOE ballads are the BEST ballads.  ;D
-Octavarium is one of the worst DT albums. (not counting the title track)
I can kind of agree on these, because ADTOE is my 3rd favorite album, I think it has some of the best DT ballads and Octavarium is a bottom 2 or 3 album for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
Quote from: ? on August 27, 2013, 09:19:12 AM
I wouldn't call Pull Me Under overrated even if I didn't like it too much because it doesn't get a massive amount of love on this forum, at least compared to most I&W songs. In the latest (still unfinished) DT survivor PMU was the second song to be voted out from I&W.

Huh. I need to change my perceptions on these songs then. I always assumed that PMU was considered among the pantheon of untouchable DT songs considering it was their first big single.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 27, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
The thing with PMU is that it's vay overrated by casual fans and criminally underrated by a part of the hardcore community. I am a proud lover of the song, and it should speak of my liking of IAW the fact that I'm forced to rank it second-to-last in the list of its best songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:25:31 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 27, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
The thing with PMU is that it's vay overrated by casual fans and criminally underrated by a part of the hardcore community. I am a proud lover of the song, and it should speak of my liking of IAW the fact that I'm forced to rank it second-to-last in the list of its best songs.

I guess that's fair. It's my second-to-least favorite on IAW I think, but true it's still a great song.



Controversial opinion maybe? I think UAGM is the worst song on IAW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 27, 2013, 09:27:14 AM
There is no worst song on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 27, 2013, 09:30:35 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 27, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
The thing with PMU is that it's vay overrated by casual fans and criminally underrated by a part of the hardcore community. I am a proud lover of the song, and it should speak of my liking of IAW the fact that I'm forced to rank it second-to-last in the list of its best songs.
Yeah, I think that description is accurate. If I was asked to rank the songs on I&W now PMU would probably be 5th or 6th.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 27, 2013, 09:27:14 AM
There is no worst song on I&W.
This. There's only "least amazing" and that title belongs to Another Day, which is a great song nevertheless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:32:38 AM
 :hefdaddy I accept that I clearly am silly and uninformed, and will rectify this immediately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 27, 2013, 09:34:11 AM
Being the worst song on IaW is like being the ugliest chick at the Playboy mansion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 27, 2013, 09:34:29 AM
I revisited ADTOE last night, listening six songs out of nine. Here are some of my thoughts.

OTBOA: still awesome. The pre-chorus is simply genius.
TITL: this song didn't really stand out before, and neither did now.
BITS: growing on me. Cool riffing, playing with rhythms and a soaring chorus, what more can I ask for, in a prog metal song? However, the vocal melodies in verses still sound a bit odd and I don't really like the instrumental section (aside solos).
Outcry: I'm really starting to like it. The song gives me chills every time, and it might be even my favourite on the entire album. One of the best choruses, maybe even the best in their discography. Lyrics are awesome, one major reason for the chills. And the picture in the album booklet is the icing on the cake.

But I'm not really sure what to think about the instrumental section. It has many bits I like, but I find the last minute unnecessary.
FFH: kinda personal song for me. Very beautiful, good ballad.
BAI: You know what? This song is overrated. Not by much, but still. Actually, my feelings to this song are opposite to many, many JR era songs. I prefer the instrumental section to sung parts. Especially the "Life's biggest battles" is too cheesy for me. But the instrumental is really creative and fun. The Pink Floyd-esque solo is JP at his best.

Not from ADTOE: Disappear is getting better with every listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 27, 2013, 09:35:36 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 27, 2013, 09:34:11 AM
Being the worst song on IaW is like being the ugliest chick at the Playboy mansion.
:metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on August 27, 2013, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on August 27, 2013, 07:49:17 AM
This really shouldn't be controversial, BUT . . . . WDADU is one of the best albums the band has done...

Not controversial at all, at least not with me. There should be more love for WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 27, 2013, 09:49:10 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on August 27, 2013, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on August 27, 2013, 07:49:17 AM
This really shouldn't be controversial, BUT . . . . WDADU is one of the best albums the band has done...

Not controversial at all, at least not with me. There should be more love for WDADU.

It's unfortunate they essentially signed away their rights to that music....to where they can't go back and re-engineer or remaster those songs. The production is hard to take, but still some awesome music there.

It'd be neat to have a re-recorded version of WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:50:35 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 27, 2013, 09:49:10 AM
It's unfortunate they essentially signed away their rights to that music....to where they can't go back and re-engineer or remaster those songs. The production is hard to take, but still some awesome music there.

It'd be neat to have a re-recorded version of WDADU.

I did not know this happened. That is unfortunate since the production is always what's steered me away from WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 27, 2013, 10:08:15 AM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 27, 2013, 09:50:35 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on August 27, 2013, 09:49:10 AM
It's unfortunate they essentially signed away their rights to that music....to where they can't go back and re-engineer or remaster those songs. The production is hard to take, but still some awesome music there.

It'd be neat to have a re-recorded version of WDADU.

I did not know this happened. That is unfortunate since the production is always what's steered me away from WDADU.
I don't recall the specifics, it was covered in 'Lifting Shadows' ....but it was something like they were all so excited about getting a record deal that they basically signed their rights away. If I remember correctly...and someone please chime in if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read it....but I think they had a fairly lengthy legal issue as well to ultimately get out of their inaugural contract. I think that's how they 'lost' the rights to those songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
I must be the only one around here who hates Outcry...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 20th Century Icon on August 27, 2013, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: wasteland on August 27, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
The thing with PMU is that it's vay overrated by casual fans and criminally underrated by a part of the hardcore community. I am a proud lover of the song, and it should speak of my liking of IAW the fact that I'm forced to rank it second-to-last in the list of its best songs.

I've always thought of PMU as DT's Tom Sawyer. A great song in its own right, but merely okay when compared to the rest of the catalogue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
I must be the only one around here who hates Outcry...

It's actually one of my favorite songs off of ADTOE :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 27, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-BC&SL is my favorite DT album.

That's pretty weird :D


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Systematic is my second favorite.

Great album, but not that great IMO.


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-ADTOE is my fourth favorite.

It's my fifth favourite, but pretty close.


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Prophets of War and Constant Motion are some of the best songs in SC.

No


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Pull Me Under is not that great of a song.
:hifive:


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-ADTOE ballads are the BEST ballads.  ;D

No, SDV.


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Octavarium is one of the worst DT albums. (not counting the title track)

:censored


Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Long DT songs are the best.

No


/statingopinionsasfacts
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RuRoRul on August 27, 2013, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 27, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
Quote from: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 08:43:09 AM
-Long DT songs are the best.
No
Is this one even considered controversial around here? As far as I know the highest regarded song from each album is usually the longest one, or at least one of the longest ones.

And personally, the only album I can think of where I wouldn't pick the longest or second longest song as my favourite is Images And Words, and even there my top 3 of Take The Time, Learning To Live, and Metropolis are the longest three.

To add a controversial opinion: On The Backs Of Angels is better than The Enemy Inside.

Or at least, that seems slightly controversial around here right now. I expect within a year it will be the other way round.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 27, 2013, 11:42:16 AM
Seems like you fucked up the quotes, I didn't write something like "Is this one even considered controversial around here?" :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 27, 2013, 11:43:07 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 27, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
That's pretty weird :D

Yeah,I was always distinguished from other DT fans.
For example,most people think Awake is the best or one of the best albums,while for me it's a normal album and it's not that special.
The exact opposite happens with BC&SL ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 02:36:20 PM
I suppose it's controversial to say that I think Systematic Chaos is every bit as good as Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 27, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 02:36:20 PM
I suppose it's controversial to say that I think Systematic Chaos is every bit as good as Images and Words.
I would think so, yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Metropolis is pretty much the only reason why I&W edges out SC for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 27, 2013, 03:13:19 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Metropolis is pretty much the only reason why I&W edges out SC for me.
:l

:l
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 27, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
The last truly great sounding DT album was SDOIT.

Although, that doesn't sound controversial at all.  :millahhhh Let me see..

Ah, yes! James LaBrie wasn't as godly back in 92/93 as most people make him see. Of course he was a behemoth and he did amazing things with his voice, but he pushed his voice to extremes live back then which 'caused his voice to crack a friggin' lot. His tone was incredible but it just bugs me how much his voice cracked.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 27, 2013, 07:43:10 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 22, 2013, 01:31:15 PM
The masterplan was dump Rudess after Six Degrees, get another keyboardist, make two albums, dump the new keyboardist then repeat until forever :rollin

Just joking

Ah yes, the Jon Schaffer method.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on August 27, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Far From Heaven is by far my least favorite DT song. There is not a single redeeming quality about it. I'd rather listen to WDADU on repeat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on August 27, 2013, 08:09:34 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Metropolis is pretty much the only reason why I&W edges out SC for me.

Quote from: fllnsprrw on August 27, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Far From Heaven is by far my least favorite DT song. There is not a single redeeming quality about it. I'd rather listen to WDADU on repeat.

My god, what is going on in this thread
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on August 27, 2013, 08:09:34 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Metropolis is pretty much the only reason why I&W edges out SC for me.

Quote from: fllnsprrw on August 27, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
Far From Heaven is by far my least favorite DT song. There is not a single redeeming quality about it. I'd rather listen to WDADU on repeat.

My god, what is going on in this thread

Controversial opinions, my friend. What did you expect?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 27, 2013, 08:36:47 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 27, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
The last truly great sounding DT album was SDOIT.

Agreed  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 27, 2013, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
I must be the only one around here who hates Outcry...

Nope. I've never liked it either. Weakest song on the album to me, and one of my least favourite DT songs (not sure if quite bottom 10, but definitely bottom 20).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 27, 2013, 08:46:59 PM
I think Outcry needed more 8:43 than 4:42
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 09:20:56 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 27, 2013, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
I must be the only one around here who hates Outcry...

Nope. I've never liked it either. Weakest song on the album to me, and one of my least favourite DT songs (not sure if quite bottom 10, but definitely bottom 20).

Thank you! It's got so many great musical ideas but it's such a poorly constructed song that I can never stand to listen to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 09:57:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 27, 2013, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:30:29 AM
I must be the only one around here who hates Outcry...

Nope. I've never liked it either. Weakest song on the album to me, and one of my least favourite DT songs (not sure if quite bottom 10, but definitely bottom 20).

So... Things ARE opposite on the lower side of the equator?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on August 27, 2013, 10:11:04 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 27, 2013, 08:46:59 PM
I think Outcry needed more 8:43 than 4:42
Absolutely. That's my favorite part of the song. And I dislike the instrumental section.

Now for my controversial opinion: I think metropolis is the worst song on I&W. Yep. I said it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolven74 on August 27, 2013, 10:29:45 PM
As singles go, The Enemy Inside is better than Pull Me Under.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:31:41 PM
I think The Enemy Inside was exactly the kind of song I was hoping DT wouldn't have on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 10:33:10 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:31:41 PM
I think The Enemy Inside was exactly the kind of song I was hoping DT wouldn't have on DT12.

It would've been better if it sounded a little more like Constant Motion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 27, 2013, 10:51:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 10:33:10 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 10:31:41 PM
I think The Enemy Inside was exactly the kind of song I was hoping DT wouldn't have on DT12.

It would've been better if it sounded a little more like Constant Motion.

 :laugh: ?????
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on August 27, 2013, 11:21:00 PM
I love Systematic Chaos.

*Climbs into bomb shelter*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 27, 2013, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: adamack on August 27, 2013, 11:21:00 PM
I love Systematic Chaos.

*Climbs into bomb shelter*

Me too  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 11:51:18 PM
Well... I love it more, you guys!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Eldomm on August 28, 2013, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 27, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
Ah, yes! James LaBrie wasn't as godly back in 92/93 as most people make him see. Of course he was a behemoth and he did amazing things with his voice, but he pushed his voice to extremes live back then which 'caused his voice to crack a friggin' lot. His tone was incredible but it just bugs me how much his voice cracked.

Absolutely this.
I remember how I was disappointed during my first live show in Milan in '93, :blush hearing how JLB was not singing properly the high notes, instead cracking as you mention....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 01:17:55 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 27, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Metropolis is pretty much the only reason why I&W edges out SC for me.

Oh yes, exactly this! As much as I love SC, none of its songs come close to Metropolis, although it's a way more consistent album than I&W in my opinion (SYSTEMATIC CHAOS IS MORE CONSISTENT THAN IMAGES AND WORDS, GUYS). I'm not even sure anymore if I should really rank SC below FII. There is some incredible stuff on FII, but NM and JLMB (and maybe YNM) drag it down a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: composure77 on August 28, 2013, 01:18:15 AM
I wish MP used a different snare sound on awake. Its also too high in the mix where it could have gone to other things which kind of brings the album down for me. I enjoy SC more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 01:22:53 AM
Not really controversial, but the way everyone argues over which DT album or which DT song is better, makes me think of Malcolm In The Middle, when he started coming to the class for the smart kids, and how all the smart kids were ranked in like the 99.9999 percentile, but still fought like crazy over who'd get the highest decimal point of 99.999%.
That's how DT is, we always fight over what's the best, but compared to the rest of the music out there, DT is still like the gifted class and vast majority of their songs would be in the 99.9999% compared to the rest of the music out there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on August 28, 2013, 02:03:21 AM
Totally agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 28, 2013, 03:19:49 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 01:17:55 AM
(SYSTEMATIC CHAOS IS MORE CONSISTENT THAN IMAGES AND WORDS, GUYS)
Yeah, it's more consistently weak :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
Quote from: ? on August 28, 2013, 03:19:49 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 01:17:55 AM
(SYSTEMATIC CHAOS IS MORE CONSISTENT THAN IMAGES AND WORDS, GUYS)
Yeah, it's more consistently weak :biggrin:

Hey, get your boring and predictable, non-controversial (also untrue) opinions out of here.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 04:44:59 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 03:24:40 AM
Quote from: ? on August 28, 2013, 03:19:49 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 01:17:55 AM
(SYSTEMATIC CHAOS IS MORE CONSISTENT THAN IMAGES AND WORDS, GUYS)
Yeah, it's more consistently weak :biggrin:

Hey, get your boring and predictable, non-controversial (also untrue) opinions out of here.  :hat

:hifive:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 28, 2013, 04:46:39 AM
Even if i like SC a lot, i could never call it consistent  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
CM is not that great, same with the samples-from-other-guys section of Repentance, but at least it doesn't have four boring songs in a row like I&W has.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 28, 2013, 05:24:12 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 04:51:20 AM
CM is not that great, same with the samples-from-other-guys section of Repentance, but at least it doesn't have four boring songs in a row like I&W has.

(https://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/michael_scott/Michael-What-the-office-10400786-400-226.gif)

Seriously, which four songs are you thinking of?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 28, 2013, 05:32:52 AM
He probably meant Images & Words has 4 boring MINUTES in a row - which are the 4 minutes before you start listening to Images & Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:33:02 AM
Pull Me Under - Another Day - Take The Time - Surrounded

I like Surrounded quite a bit, but it's still incredible that these songs are on the same album as the following four, which are simply excellent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on August 28, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
I've been listening more to Train of Thought lately and I think it is a very solid album. I think most instrumental sections fit the themes of the songs perfectly, and the lyrics and music make a genuinely emotional impact. It's growing on me again and I think it might end up as one of my favorite DT records alongside SDOIT, I&W and Awake. Thus the controversial opinion here: I like ToT better than SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:34:15 AM
TOT is a lot better than just "solid".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 28, 2013, 05:37:43 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:33:02 AM
Pull Me Under - Another Day - Take The Time - Surrounded

I like Surrounded quite a bit, but it's still incredible that these songs are on the same album as the following four, which are simply excellent.

Two of my top 10 ever are there. You've just killed me :( I can't understand how will someone consider TTT boring. I think that song is everything but boring, even if you don't like it  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:48:19 AM
It just doesn't excite me in the slightest, so I think I can call it a boring song (in my opinion of course, it's great that you and most others like it).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 05:49:51 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 28, 2013, 05:37:43 AM
Two of my top 10 ever are there. You've just killed me :( I can't understand how will someone consider TTT boring. I think that song is everything but boring, even if you don't like it  :lol

I love every song on I&W, but if I had to throw one away, it would definitely be TTT. I think it's the most overrated song on the album, considering how much praise it gets.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on August 28, 2013, 05:57:22 AM
To my ears, TTT sounds as pure awesomeness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on August 28, 2013, 06:15:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 05:49:51 AM
Quote from: Estiui on August 28, 2013, 05:37:43 AM
Two of my top 10 ever are there. You've just killed me :( I can't understand how will someone consider TTT boring. I think that song is everything but boring, even if you don't like it  :lol

I love every song on I&W, but if I had to throw one away, it would definitely be TTT. I think it's the most overrated song on the album, considering how much praise it gets.
+1
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 28, 2013, 06:30:10 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on August 28, 2013, 05:57:22 AM
To my ears, TTT sounds as pure awesomeness.

To my ears, TTT sounds like angels dancing on a cloud made of sex while unicorns weep tears of joy from their pillow fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 28, 2013, 06:31:23 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on August 28, 2013, 05:57:22 AM
To my ears, TTT sounds as pure awesomeness.
Absolutely, I think that TTT is the freshest DT song. Always powerful, always uplifting. Best DT with LTL IMO.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 28, 2013, 06:30:10 AM
To my ears, TTT sounds like angels dancing on a cloud made of sex while unicorns weep tears of joy from their pillow fortress.

Agreed  :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 28, 2013, 06:48:15 AM
It's actually funny that i think TTT may be DT's best work from the songwriting point of view but it's one of the songs i care less about in I&W (Which means nothing).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on August 28, 2013, 07:36:21 AM
Quote from: serrano on August 28, 2013, 04:46:39 AM
Even if i like SC a lot, i could never call it consistent  :lol

The same.

Quote from: PixelDream on August 28, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
I've been listening more to Train of Thought lately and I think it is a very solid album. I think most instrumental sections fit the themes of the songs perfectly, and the lyrics and music make a genuinely emotional impact. It's growing on me again and I think it might end up as one of my favorite DT records alongside SDOIT, I&W and Awake. Thus the controversial opinion here: I like ToT better than SFAM.

My controversial opinion about Train of Thought: it's my least favourite DT album. I don't enjoy that heavy music often, and James sounds rather weak. I don't know why, and I know he is able to sing even heavier music (I like Elements of Persuasion). And the songs aren't very good, except Honor Thy Father, Vacant and SOC. The only song I dislike, however, is As I Am.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 28, 2013, 07:53:52 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:33:02 AM
Pull Me Under - Another Day - Take The Time - Surrounded

I like Surrounded quite a bit, but it's still incredible that these songs are on the same album as the following four, which are simply excellent.

Those are three of my favorites on the album.

Honestly, I think the entire album is really strong, so even ones that I like less are still excellent songs.

Oh wait, controversial options...

Uh....

Scenes from a Memory is boring! Am I doing it right? :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 28, 2013, 07:36:21 AM
My controversial opinion about Train of Thought: it's my least favourite DT album. I don't enjoy that heavy music often, and James sounds rather weak. I don't know why, and I know he is able to sing even heavier music (I like Elements of Persuasion). And the songs aren't very good, except Honor Thy Father, Vacant and SOC. The only song I dislike, however, is As I Am.

no
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: Ruba on August 28, 2013, 07:36:21 AM
Quote from: serrano on August 28, 2013, 04:46:39 AM
Even if i like SC a lot, i could never call it consistent  :lol

The same.

Quote from: PixelDream on August 28, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
I've been listening more to Train of Thought lately and I think it is a very solid album. I think most instrumental sections fit the themes of the songs perfectly, and the lyrics and music make a genuinely emotional impact. It's growing on me again and I think it might end up as one of my favorite DT records alongside SDOIT, I&W and Awake. Thus the controversial opinion here: I like ToT better than SFAM.

My controversial opinion about Train of Thought: it's my least favourite DT album. I don't enjoy that heavy music often, and James sounds rather weak. I don't know why, and I know he is able to sing even heavier music (I like Elements of Persuasion). And the songs aren't very good, except Honor Thy Father, Vacant and SOC. The only song I dislike, however, is As I Am.
THANK YOU. I mean it's probably not at the levels of despise that I dwell in, but I'm glad I'm not the only one that ranks it squarely at bottom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: serrano on August 28, 2013, 06:48:15 AM
It's actually funny that i think TTT may be DT's best work from the songwriting point of view

I don't see how. Seems like a pretty average DT song to me. (which still makes it great in the grand scheme of music) But nothing about the songwriting makes it better than Metropolis, Learning to Live, or any of their other greats.
And those lyrics: "It's time to take the time"  :lol

Also reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD7p1dyF7x0
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 28, 2013, 12:54:41 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: serrano on August 28, 2013, 06:48:15 AM
It's actually funny that i think TTT may be DT's best work from the songwriting point of view

I don't see how. Seems like a pretty average DT song to me. (which still makes it great in the grand scheme of music) But nothing about the songwriting makes it better than Metropolis, Learning to Live, or any of their other greats.
And those lyrics: "It's time to take the time"  :lol

Also reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD7p1dyF7x0

That's hilarious, because I actually don't like Learning To Live as much. And incidentally, Metropolis and Under A Glass Moon have grown on me exponentially recently.

Edit: I want Dream Theater to redo TTT just like that video for the tour next year. Is it too late to request that? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 28, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
Cut I&W songs > Uncut
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 28, 2013, 02:32:53 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 28, 2013, 05:33:02 AM
Pull Me Under - Another Day - Take The Time - Surrounded

I like Surrounded quite a bit, but it's still incredible that these songs are on the same album as the following four, which are simply excellent.

I don't completely agree with this, but I definitely see where you're coming from. Pull Me Under, Another Day, and Take The Time are not up to par with the other songs on the album (although I don't think any of them are particularly bad, so to speak).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
Lost Not Forgotten and Bridges In The Sky are the most cohesive songs in ADTOE.
Breaking All Illusions i despise because it's just a failed attempt to be learning to live again, if you understand what i'm saying... just dump all song, take 9:05-9:50 and make a new song  >:(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 28, 2013, 03:12:58 PM
Another Day is my favorite song from Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
Lost Not Forgotten and Bridges In The Sky are the most cohesive songs in ADTOE.
Breaking All Illusions i despise because it's just a failed attempt to be learning to live again, if you understand what i'm saying... just dump all song, take 9:05-9:50 and make a new song  >:(
I don't understand at all  :huh:

 Outcry, Lost Not Forgotten, and Bridges In the Sky are the top 3 songs on ADToE regardless, but the entire album is hella radular
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 28, 2013, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
Lost Not Forgotten and Bridges In The Sky are the most cohesive songs in ADTOE.
Breaking All Illusions i despise because it's just a failed attempt to be learning to live again, if you understand what i'm saying... just dump all song, take 9:05-9:50 and make a new song  >:(

It's funny you say this because Lost Not Forgotten is just a failed attempt to be Under a Glass Moon again.

If you understand what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 03:23:50 PM
Because there are various parts in the song that sounds like LtL, in terms of structure.
In the middle, a section that resembles ITPOE intro and theme comes out of nowhere and after that, finally comes that "they didn't know what to do" part, so, put a Petrucci solo in it, so the fans can mast***bate or whatever
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would complain about a long, non-pointlessly-shreddy guitar solo. I love it when a skilled guitarist like Petrucci takes a minute or two or even more to play a well-constructed solo. To me, that part is one of the highlights of BAI. Similarly, the guitar solo is my favorite part of several other songs like Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand and the Goodnight Kiss movement of SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
Quote from: 425 on August 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would complain about a long, non-pointlessly-shreddy guitar solo. I love it when a skilled guitarist like Petrucci takes a minute or two or even more to play a well-constructed solo. To me, that part is one of the highlights of BAI. Similarly, the guitar solo is my favorite part of several other songs like Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand and the Goodnight Kiss movement of SDOIT.

The diference is that in ToQQ, LitS and G :-*, the solos are much more inspired, well constructed and memorable... it doesn't compare
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 28, 2013, 04:31:54 PM
Well, I personally think that the BAI solo is very inspired and memorable, but... opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 28, 2013, 04:37:27 PM
But you would agree that BAI solo is better than any of these other ones you said?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 28, 2013, 04:43:03 PM
I don't think it's better. Trial of Tears is probably my favorite of all those. But I think it's definitely in the same league as the ones I listed. And even if it wasn't, it would still be very good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 28, 2013, 05:50:36 PM
I am still amazed when someone tries to push their likes on another like it's gospel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 28, 2013, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: Grizz on August 28, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
Cut I&W songs > Uncut
I don't know what this means.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fibreoptix on August 28, 2013, 06:38:39 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 28, 2013, 06:19:00 PM
Quote from: Grizz on August 28, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
Cut I&W songs > Uncut
I don't know what this means.

It means the songs that were cut from Images are better than the ones that made it onto the album. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 28, 2013, 06:45:09 PM
yup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 28, 2013, 06:55:24 PM
There were no songs cut from I&W.  By the time the recording sessions started, they knew what songs would be on it.  The producer felt that ACOS would be too much, and the band decided to go with the more newly-written Surrounded and Another Day in favor of older songs To Live Forever and Don't Look Past Me.  But the decision was made before going into the studio.

I think it was definitely the right decision.  But your opinion is definitely controversial, so kudos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on August 28, 2013, 08:09:15 PM
I would trade Another Day for To Live Forever in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't trade Surrounded for Don't Look Past Me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 28, 2013, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on August 28, 2013, 08:09:15 PM
I would trade Another Day for To Live Forever in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't trade Surrounded for Don't Look Past Me.

heart=broken
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 08:39:07 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on August 28, 2013, 08:09:15 PM
I would trade Another Day for To Live Forever in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't trade Surrounded for Don't Look Past Me.

I'd sacrifice Take The Time for To Live Forever. But yeah, I wouldn't sacrifice Surrounded for anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on August 28, 2013, 08:40:42 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 28, 2013, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on August 28, 2013, 08:09:15 PM
I would trade Another Day for To Live Forever in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't trade Surrounded for Don't Look Past Me.

heart=broken

Nothing against Another Day.  I just really, really love To Live Forever.  It's a top 15 DT song for me, maybe even top 10. 

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 08:39:07 PM
I'd sacrifice Take The Time for To Live Forever. But yeah, I wouldn't sacrifice Surrounded for anything.

Take the Time is quite possibly my favorite song ever, so.   :lol  But we agree on Surrounded, anyway!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on August 28, 2013, 08:43:16 PM
those "cut" IAW songs were cut for a reason....i don't get what you guys see in those songs. I can't get into them at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: fllnsprrw on August 28, 2013, 08:43:16 PM
those "cut" IAW songs were cut for a reason....i don't get what you guys see in those songs. I can't get into them at all.

Especially A Change Of Seasons, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:48:48 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: fllnsprrw on August 28, 2013, 08:43:16 PM
those "cut" IAW songs were cut for a reason....i don't get what you guys see in those songs. I can't get into them at all.

Especially A Change Of Seasons, right?
A Change of Seasons go it's own official release  :\

Images & Words is perfection. IMO IMHO
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:50:43 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:48:48 PM
A Change of Seasons go it's own official release  :\


So did To Live Forever, on the Greatest Hit compilation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:52:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:50:43 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:48:48 PM
A Change of Seasons go it's own official release  :\


So did To Live Forever, on the Greatest Hit compilation.
If your point is that it's on a Greatest Hits cd therefore saying it's one of their best, that doesn't really mean anything.
If your point is that it's only on the Greatest Hits cd, well at least it's still there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:52:50 PM
If your point is that it's on a Greatest Hits cd therefore saying it's one of their best, that doesn't really mean anything.
If your point is that it's only on the Greatest Hits cd, well at least it's still there.

My point is that those songs were cut from I&W not because they're bad songs or don't live up to the rest, but because they could only have a certain amount of songs, and a certain album length.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:58:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:52:50 PM
If your point is that it's on a Greatest Hits cd therefore saying it's one of their best, that doesn't really mean anything.
If your point is that it's only on the Greatest Hits cd, well at least it's still there.

My point is that those songs were cut from I&W not because they're bad songs or don't live up to the rest, but because they could only have a certain amount of songs, and a certain album length.
It's definitely not that, seeing as I&W is 57 minutes, I think it's more they wanted to cut the fat off, and make a lean as fuck steak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2013, 10:00:24 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 28, 2013, 09:58:00 PM
It's definitely not that, seeing as I&W is 57 minutes, I think it's more they wanted to cut the fat off, and make a lean as fuck steak.

Well, it's a matter of decisions. They had to cut a lot of songs out of Falling Into Infinity too, and personally, I thought they cut two songs that were better than the vast majority of what ended up on the album. So just because they had to make a decision and cut certain songs out, doesn't say anything about the quality of those songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on August 29, 2013, 03:15:00 AM
I don't think ACOS is their best "epic", but I&W would be incredible if it was something like this:

1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Metropolis
3. Under A Glass Moon
4. Wait For Sleep
5. Learning To Live

Gotta do that playlist now :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 03:31:30 AM
Yeah, but then they would've never had their greatest hit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on August 29, 2013, 03:37:30 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 29, 2013, 03:15:00 AM
3. Under A Glass Moon

I think UAGM is the worst song on I&W so I don't agree completely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: serrano on August 29, 2013, 03:38:17 AM
I think I&W is perfect the way it is, on the other side (and here is the controversial opinion) i would like to have ACOS with a better drum sound, i prefer the triggered drum sound on I&W to the extreme rough sound of ACOS, specially the snare. As MP stated, this was Prater overcompensating for I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on August 29, 2013, 04:22:58 AM
I&W is just perfect. I love ACOS, but I wouldn't have included it into I&W. And if I had to include ACOS, I'd cut PMU, AD and WFS if necessary (I love them though), but never Surrounded or TTT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 04:25:40 AM
I'm wondering how the final version of ACOS would have ended up with Kevin in the band. I mean, the instrumental breakdown and the keyboard solo. I wonder if he would have done something a bit more interesting and melodic with it than DS did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 29, 2013, 04:30:30 AM
Keep in mind that if you had ACOS on Images and Words, it would have been the 1990 version of that song, which is quite different from the version that was on the ACOS EP. Those of you who haven't heard it may want to listen to that version before you start writing IAW/ACOS fanfiction. You might wind up being glad they took the time on that song and wound up vastly improving it (IMO).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 04:33:26 AM
Yeah, but there's nothing to say that  they couldn't have improved it during the I&W studio sessions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 29, 2013, 04:49:50 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on August 29, 2013, 03:15:00 AM
I don't think ACOS is their best "epic", but I&W would be incredible if it was something like this:

1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Metropolis
3. Under A Glass Moon
4. Wait For Sleep
5. Learning To Live

Gotta do that playlist now :o

That would actually be significantly worse to me. It's missing my favourite song from the album (TTT), and I don't like LTL or ACOS that much, and I especially don't like the earlier version of ACOS as it would likely have appeared on IaW. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 29, 2013, 04:51:27 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 04:33:26 AM
Yeah, but there's nothing to say that  they couldn't have improved it during the I&W studio sessions.
They wouldn't have.  It was already "ready to go."  The only reason it was ever redone is because it was finally getting a release on EP and they wanted to rework it with Derek.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 04:54:33 AM
Seriously? The performance I heard of it, really made it sound like a 'work in progress' type of deal. It had some interesting ideas, but the vocal melodies seemed mostly improvised, as well as some of the other aspects of it as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 29, 2013, 10:34:59 AM
I could personally not remove anything from I&W, every song feels exactly right in place and songs like UAGM have some of my favorite playing from Petrucci, and of course James sounds like an angel of RAAAWWWWK.

And then there's the opening of TTT, which my friend and I would try to emulate while driving around town at like 2 am.


"COME ON WAIT A MINUTE, JUST LET ME CATCH MY BREATH"

Yeah, the album just has a lot of personal connection to it, I couldn't imagine taking anything out or adding anything in.


Now if you want something Controversial that you haven't heard from me before, while I acknowledge SDoIT as being one of their best, I just can't get myself to listen to it very often, even more so than Scenes, it's just a very tough album for me to get through, I just start thinking of other DT albums when listening to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 29, 2013, 10:34:59 AM
Now if you want something Controversial that you haven't heard from me before, while I acknowledge SDoIT as being one of their best, I just can't get myself to listen to it very often, even more so than Scenes, it's just a very tough album for me to get through, I just start thinking of other DT albums when listening to it.

Flip those two around and that's me. I can't get myself to listen to Scenes much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 01:03:25 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Flip those two around and that's me. I can't get myself to listen to Scenes much.

 :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on August 29, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 01:03:25 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Flip those two around and that's me. I can't get myself to listen to Scenes much.

 :tdwn
She's not saying it's a bad album...she's just saying she has a hard time getting through it.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 01:17:42 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on August 29, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 01:03:25 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Flip those two around and that's me. I can't get myself to listen to Scenes much.

 :tdwn
She's not saying it's a bad album...she's just saying she has a hard time getting through it.  :P

This. It's a fantastic album but not the easiest to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 01:22:59 PM
Well, that's still sad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 29, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
Well, I definitely agree. It's always been hard to me to get through Beyond This Life and Home. I recently listened to the whole deal while studying, but it was the first time in more than a year.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 01:32:19 PM
Well, I guess I sort of understand. But for me, that's the case with SDOIT. It's kind of a chore for me to get through it, especially the title song. But that's the furthest from the case for SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dekost on August 29, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 02:42:07 PM
Quote from: Dekost on August 29, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)

Really? I think it's pretty popular number one choice. If not, it definitely deserves to be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
Train of Thought is a killer record. Yes.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad. It's awesome.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated. Very much so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 29, 2013, 03:46:34 PM
Quote from: Whatsername on August 29, 2013, 01:17:42 PM
This. It's a fantastic album but not the easiest to listen to.

These are also my feelings towards SFAM. I love all the songs except Through Her Eyes, but to me, the concept makes it harder to get into for a fully listen and also makes it harder to listen to some of the songs on their own *glares in the general direction of Finally Free*. Whenever I do sit down and listen to it I very much enjoy it, and it's definitely in co-second place for me behind IAW and alongside 8VM and ADTOE.

I do not really like concept albums and would be happier if none existed. I don't really mind it when you have a Seventh Son of a Seventh Son or even a Clockwork Angels where all the songs can stand pretty much on their own both musically and lyrically (aside from the Only the Good Die Young outro on SSOASS and BU2B2 on CA, which are both very minor things). What I hate is when an album is broken up into a bunch of short little songs that really aren't much of musical compositions at all, just serving to further the plot. Basically the structure of concept albums like The Wall and Operation: Mindcrime bugs the hell out of me because they have all these little <2 minute pieces that are hardly even songs. This doesn't stop me from listening to them if the music is good, but it annoys me by forcing me into the mindset of a certain plot (whereas Seventh Son can be listened to without reference to the plot because Iron Maiden wisely did not include voiceovers or sections of ambient hospital noise) and makes it far less likely that I will listen to the songs outside of their albums.

Scenes From a Memory is my favorite concept album (even though it has concept-y aspects that annoy me in a way that Seventh Son and Clockwork don't) and it does have a lot of things going for it to counterbalance my annoyance with things like songs being unable to stand alone and large amounts of non-music audio in something like Finally Free. For one thing, I love the Metropolis Pt. 1 callbacks and I like that the musical concept is tied to that song, because that song is very excellent. Also, almost half of the songs by number and more than half by duration (Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, Through Her Eyes, Home, The Spirit Carries On), can stand completely on their own musically because they don't have an abrupt cut off in the intro or outro (Regression, O28 and SDV all are stuck together, TMW is stuck to FT, TDOE and OLT are stuck together, and FF, while not stuck with another song, ends with like a minute thirty of plot and no music). This is good. And also, I find the story of Metropolis Pt. 2 to be very interesting and engaging, more so than most concept albums (seriously).

Anyway, this is why I find SFAM hard to listen to. It forces the story on the listener (less than many concept albums, but it still does) and it's a lot harder to get in the mood for an album that replaces a single general mood (WDADU is youthful and optimistic, BCSL is basically the mood described in the album title, etc.) with a very specific storyline, certain aspects of which the listener might like or dislike (I do dislike *spoiler* that Nicholas dies in the end because it seems to defeat the purpose of "learning about his life by living through Victoria" *end spoiler*). And, though I love the album every time I listen to it, I hear it less often than I hear the rest of the band's catalog (SDOIT is also harder than most to get through but that has more to do with length and less to do with content) because of the concept.

The thing that JLB said recently about the possibility of another concept album in the future disappoints me, because, as I think you can tell from this lengthy post, I do not like concept albums. I won't dismiss it right away, though, because I'm sure it will have good music that can hopefully be separated from the album. I fervently hope that they will do a whole WWRD thing if they make a concept album and make one that is on the CA side of the spectrum rather than the Mindcrime side.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
I'll go out on a limb here and say that every song on SFaM stand on its own to me, and I regularly listen to any song off the album without listening to the preceding/following tracks. But then again, I listen to DT for the music, not the lyrics, so I totally get why more lyrical-oriented people couldn't listen to songs on SFaM individually.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on August 29, 2013, 04:34:38 PM
Quote from: Dekost on August 29, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.

I agree with everything you've said except for This is the Life and The Answer Lies Within. The first one is great and latter is one of the worst DT songs imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 04:42:26 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 04:16:38 PM
I'll go out on a limb here and say that every song on SFaM stand on its own to me, and I regularly listen to any song off the album without listening to the preceding/following tracks. But then again, I listen to DT for the music, not the lyrics, so I totally get why more lyrical-oriented people couldn't listen to songs on SFaM individually.

This. Although I tend to couple Through My Words with Fatal Tragedy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 29, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
As I said in my insanely long post, I definitely can do that with many of the songs (FT, BTL, Home, THE, TSCO). It's probably also possible with SDV and OLT (and FF if you don't mind the whole ending part). But I don't see how anyone could listen to the others, particularly Regression and TMW, without feeling a little cheated at the end. TMW practically serves as a bridge between SDV and FT and ends somewhat abruptly. O28 and TDOE also end pretty abruptly. You could probably listen to O28/SDV without anything else though SDV's outro is slightly weird without it going into TMW. I would say half the songs you can do on the own, but with the other half it's a bit weird.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 05:13:26 PM
Well, I guess I never listen to TMW or Regression on their own, in the same way I don't listen to Tool's little segue tunes individually. But they serve their purpose on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 05:14:51 PM
Quote from: 425 on August 29, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
As I said in my insanely long post, I definitely can do that with many of the songs (FT, BTL, Home, THE, TSCO). It's probably also possible with SDV and OLT (and FF if you don't mind the whole ending part). But I don't see how anyone could listen to the others, particularly Regression and TMW, without feeling a little cheated at the end. TMW practically serves as a bridge between SDV and FT and ends somewhat abruptly. O28 and TDOE also end pretty abruptly. You could probably listen to O28/SDV without anything else though SDV's outro is slightly weird without it going into TMW. I would say half the songs you can do on the own, but with the other half it's a bit weird.

Quite a few of them I had mixed into single tracks, because of those reasons. I also mixed a version of TDOE where at the end, I used the ending that they did on the Drummer auditions, giving the track a nice closure. The Making of SFAM versions of the songs all often have more conclusive endings to the tracks as well, like SDV ending without the piano from TMW starting up. Also, Finally Free on that version ends with just the music, and has some pretty cool riffs and things that got faded/cut out of the original album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 29, 2013, 07:18:48 PM
I'll have to get the Making of SFAM for sure, then! I'm curious, did you find a way to mix a version of Overture 1928 with a somewhat conclusive ending? That one has particularly bothered me because it feels practically inseparable from SDV. Sure, the music stops, but it feels inconclusive when it isn't played with immediately before SDV.

I have made versions of Scene Two (O28/SDV), Scene Three (TMW/FT) and Scene Seven (TDOE/OLT) where they are single tracks, and I made a version of Finally Free that fades out. It's not perfect but it makes the song easier to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 07:35:25 PM
I know what you mean. No, I just did what you did, and merged O28 and SDV together. The cool thing about the making of SFAM is that TMW by itself goes all the way through the "What does this mean?" part, and then Fatal Tragedy starts with the heavy part, and even has a couple extra lines, going, "I felt a need to try and clarify my memories. My quest begins today."

I used to have TDOE merged with OLT as well, but then I just ripped the Drummer Auditions audio from the DVD and like I said, used the end of that as my conclustion. This part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L609JsPFmmI#t=947
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

Yeah, I mean, what's actually bad about it? Cool chords in the intro, catchy chorus, cool acoustic guitar bit. It's not their best, but what's not to like?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on August 29, 2013, 08:41:40 PM
I don't understand the Outcry hate a couple pages back. Outcry is not perfect, but it is a fantastic progressive metal song. It has probably the most insane instrumental ever in a DT song with tons of cool ideas, some of the most sophisticated drumming of any DT ever, and one of the most powerful outros. I love the synth part on "we suffered far too long..." The music goes great with the (just decent) lyrics. I wouldn't give the song a 10/10, but there is a shitload to be happy about in that tune.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 08:55:57 PM
Outcry is the highlight of ADTOE, as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on August 29, 2013, 08:58:18 PM
I just think the lyrics are cheesy and I don't really care for James' delivery of them either... I don't think it's a bad song at all though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:04:09 PM
Quote from: Rattlehead on August 29, 2013, 08:58:18 PM
I just think the lyrics are cheesy and I don't really care for James' delivery of them either...

Sounds like half the songs on the album. They're still great songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 29, 2013, 09:04:29 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

I do think the 'public" opinion here can definitely influence the extent to which someone likes/dislikes something (like Raw Dog), but not whether they like it or not.

I'm the last person to follow the public opinion of the forum (I don't even rank ACOS top 50 :lol ), but I still don't think it's a great song. I don't think it's a bad song either, but I'd still rank it as one of DT's lesser songs, and would usually skip it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on August 29, 2013, 08:41:40 PM
I don't understand the Outcry hate a couple pages back. Outcry is not perfect, but it is a fantastic progressive metal song. It has probably the most insane instrumental ever in a DT song with tons of cool ideas, some of the most sophisticated drumming of any DT ever, and one of the most powerful outros. I love the synth part on "we suffered far too long..." The music goes great with the (just decent) lyrics. I wouldn't give the song a 10/10, but there is a shitload to be happy about in that tune.

I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together. And I don't feel this way with nearly any other DT song. And the prechorus-type thing in 9/8(or whatever it is) is one of the least catchy and most annoying musical phrases I can think of in a DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on August 29, 2013, 11:34:59 PM
Quote from: Dekost on August 29, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Train of Thought is a killer record.
Prophets of War is actually not that bad.
Octavarium is the best DT song (not sure if controversial.. but I've never seen it ranked 1st place)
This is the Life is kinda bad.
JR's lead sounds since he switched to Korg are horrible. Most of his patches sound worse than the Kurzweils patches.
Mike Mangini technique-wise is the best member in DT.
War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All are kinda meh.
Right now, low-range LaBrie is much better than high-range Labrie.
If Images and Words came out today it would sound completely dated.
I like the drum sound in ADTOE and the mix in general (ok, maybe drums could have been a little higher in volume)
The Answes Lies Within is one of DT's best ballads.

I agree :3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on September 01, 2013, 08:06:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 08:55:57 PM
Outcry is the highlight of ADTOE, as far as I'm concerned.

 :tup With OTBOA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 01, 2013, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on September 01, 2013, 11:34:52 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 01, 2013, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?
It's not. In fact I think the structures of each song are quite similar. Unfortunately, I dislike the instrumental section in both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 01, 2013, 11:43:18 AM
:o Metropolis' instrumental section is beyond awesome. Especially that bass solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 01, 2013, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 01, 2013, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 29, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 29, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
I think Outcry is a song with tons of great ideas that don't work with each other at all. If the various sections of Outcry were divided and expanded into songs of their own, I'd love every one. But as a whole, I hate listening to it, because I feel like they had no direction and just wanted to cram a bunch of musical ideas together.

These are the arguments I've heard about TMOLS, ANTR and Scarred.

But the structure doesn't bother me in those songs. With those songs, it's mostly a few major ideas pieced together--with Outcry it's a million tiny pieces with very few major ideas that give the song focus.

How is that different from Metropolis?

With Metropolis, I feel like the vibe and atmosphere of the ideas all fit together well and are put together somewhat cohesively, whereas I feel the opposite for Outcry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 01, 2013, 12:28:57 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 01, 2013, 11:43:18 AM
:o Metropolis' instrumental section is beyond awesome. Especially that bass solo.

Yes, but Outcry's bass solo is beyond awesome as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JPX on September 02, 2013, 08:25:24 AM
A considerable amount of people seem to enjoy the FII Demos and wish that the album had been released that way.

My controversial opinion therefore is that those songs (the ones left off the album) are the worst collection of songs that DT ever wrote and are best left on a ytsejam demo release.

I love FII as it was released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaotic_ripper on September 02, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
It ain't got nothing on LITS or TOT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolven74 on September 02, 2013, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.
Found this song on Youtube. Not sure if it would have been the best song on the album, but it certainly should have made the album. Great tune. :metal

On another note, I'll paraphrase a comment on there that I totally agree with. While Jordan is technically a better player, he can't hold a candle to Kevin Moore's arrangement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 11:38:42 AM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on September 02, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
It ain't got nothing on LITS or TOT

:(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 11:42:55 AM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on September 02, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
It ain't got nothing on LITS or TOT

Even if you think that, it's still way better than NM. Heck, they could have even gotten rid of BMS and HK, and replaced them with RTK and it would have been better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on September 02, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: wolven74 on September 02, 2013, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.
Found this song on Youtube. Not sure if it would have been the best song on the album, but it certainly should have made the album. Great tune. :metal

On another note, I'll paraphrase a comment on there that I totally agree with. While Jordan is technically a better player, he can't hold a candle to Kevin Moore's arrangement.

Give SDOIT (the song) a spin. And listen carefully to what Jordan does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on September 02, 2013, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 11:42:55 AM
Quote from: chaotic_ripper on September 02, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 02, 2013, 09:25:11 AM
But... Raise The Knife..?.? :sad:
It ain't got nothing on LITS or TOT

Even if you think that, it's still way better than NM. Heck, they could have even gotten rid of BMS and HK, and replaced them with RTK and it would have been better.

NM is definitely better than RTK for me, personally.  But I do agree that they could have cut a couple of shorter tracks for RTK.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 02, 2013, 01:59:06 PM
My controversial opinion on RTK is that I've never cared about it or liked the lyrics and I think it's the most overrated non-album track by DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jmasterx on September 02, 2013, 03:43:42 PM
Mike > Mike.

I'm surprised this has not come up yet  :azn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on September 02, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Quote from: jmasterx on September 02, 2013, 03:43:42 PM
Mike > Mike.

I'm surprised this has not come up yet  :azn:


Seriously?  :tdwn

Mike >>>> Mike
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on September 02, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Well I think Mike<<<<<Mike!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on September 02, 2013, 03:52:43 PM
(https://coedbc.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/mike-tyson-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JPX on September 02, 2013, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: ? on September 02, 2013, 01:59:06 PM
My controversial opinion on RTK is that I've never cared about it or liked the lyrics and I think it's the most overrated non-album track by DT.

I'm with you man. It doesn't do anything for me on any level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JPX on September 02, 2013, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.

 :o You seriously think that DLPM is better than everything on I&W?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.

I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits, basically the first verse and chorus.
I was going to do my own cut of it with the stems, but never quite sorted out the transitions to do it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 02, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.

I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits, basically the first verse and chorus.
I was going to do my own cut of it with the stems, but never quite sorted out the transitions to do it.

??? This is the weirdest opinion I've ever heard about this one. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 02, 2013, 08:40:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.

Raw Dog has a nice riff at least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 02, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.

I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits, basically the first verse and chorus.
I was going to do my own cut of it with the stems, but never quite sorted out the transitions to do it.

??? This is the weirdest opinion I've ever heard about this one. 

Really? I just don't like the way the upbeat sections sound. The melodies are a little corny to me. But the sadder sections with just acoustic and voice are beautiful. I'd love to make a cut that basically has just the acoustic/vocal sections, then busts into the big JP solo at the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 02, 2013, 09:12:49 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 02, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 02, 2013, 07:58:27 PM
The Best of Times should have just been an EP. I'd rather listen to Raw Dog, and have it as a replacement on BCSL.

I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits, basically the first verse and chorus.
I was going to do my own cut of it with the stems, but never quite sorted out the transitions to do it.

??? This is the weirdest opinion I've ever heard about this one. 

Really? I just don't like the way the upbeat sections sound. The melodies are a little corny to me. But the sadder sections with just acoustic and voice are beautiful. I'd love to make a cut that basically has just the acoustic/vocal sections, then busts into the big JP solo at the end.

I agree with all of this. The melodic intro with the violin and acoustic guitar solo is one of the most beautiful pieces of music DT has crafted to my ears. If they cut out all the Rush bits it would be a damn fine song. They ruin the beautiful main theme with all the (frankly annoying) 7/4 nostalgia verses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on September 02, 2013, 09:20:50 PM
Awake is the most overrated album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 02, 2013, 09:21:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits, basically the first verse and chorus.
I was going to do my own cut of it with the stems, but never quite sorted out the transitions to do it.

What i was saying the other day Blob?
Hearing the songs, i have the feeling that something is missing or some section is out-of-place("They could have done better than this")"" (I was talking about some post-8varium songs)
TBOT could have been better indeed if they had cut some things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on September 02, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
I love those upbeat happy parts in the TBOT...To each his own. But with any DT song  i have never had to pick apart and choose what parts i like and what i don't , what could have been done better, or what should have been omitted, truncated, extended, etc...It's usually all or nothing with me. Either i like it or i don't. I never think "oooh i wish they had never included that part." One section could either ruin the entire song for me or be its saving grace. It's usually the latter so far. But that's just weird me and that's why DT is my favorite band. I hope that trend with continue with the upcoming album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 02, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion
No, people dislike it because it's relatively awful.  You just happen to be in the minority of people who like it.  Which is fine, but doesn't really allow you to justify your like of it by accusing everyone who dislikes it of being bandwagon haters.  WTF, we're all DT fans, we like stuff that the majority of people don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolven74 on September 02, 2013, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on September 02, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: wolven74 on September 02, 2013, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.
Found this song on Youtube. Not sure if it would have been the best song on the album, but it certainly should have made the album. Great tune. :metal

On another note, I'll paraphrase a comment on there that I totally agree with. While Jordan is technically a better player, he can't hold a candle to Kevin Moore's arrangement.

Give SDOIT (the song) a spin. And listen carefully to what Jordan does.
I've never thought of 6DOIT as one song.... which part?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 02, 2013, 10:38:29 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 02, 2013, 09:12:49 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
Really? I just don't like the way the upbeat sections sound. The melodies are a little corny to me. But the sadder sections with just acoustic and voice are beautiful. I'd love to make a cut that basically has just the acoustic/vocal sections, then busts into the big JP solo at the end.

I agree with all of this. The melodic intro with the violin and acoustic guitar solo is one of the most beautiful pieces of music DT has crafted to my ears. If they cut out all the Rush bits it would be a damn fine song. They ruin the beautiful main theme with all the (frankly annoying) 7/4 nostalgia verses.

Huh.  I for one think that it would be tiring if the band smashed all of the slow, sad stuff together.  The upbeat verses are really catchy and give the song some much-needed variety.  It also makes sense that those verses are included since MP is happy that he got to spend time with his father.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 10:42:49 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits,

I think that applies to every non-excellent song, ever.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 10:51:40 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 10:42:49 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM
I think TBOT could have been an excellent song if they cut out all of the happy bits,

I think that applies to every non-excellent song, ever.  :lol

??? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, not at all. Songs aren't bad because they have happy bits. I just don't think the happy bits in this song happen to be very strong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 10:58:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 10:51:40 PM
??? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, not at all. Songs aren't bad because they have happy bits. I just don't think the happy bits in this song happen to be very strong.

Wow, I completely, I misread. I thought you said, "The song would be great if they cut out all the crappy bits."  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 11:01:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 10:58:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 10:51:40 PM
??? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, not at all. Songs aren't bad because they have happy bits. I just don't think the happy bits in this song happen to be very strong.

Wow, I completely, I misread. I thought you said, "The song would be great if they cut out all the crappy bits."  :lol

:rollin Now that makes a lot more sense.

Of course that still doesn't hold true, because sometimes if you cut out all of the crappy bits, you're left with no song at all! :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 11:01:54 PM
:rollin Now that makes a lot more sense.

Of course that still doesn't hold true, because sometimes if you cut out all of the crappy bits, you're left with no song at all! :biggrin:

Well yeah. But generally speaking, it reminded me of a statement like, "This would be good, if they improved all the bad parts."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on September 02, 2013, 11:16:40 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 02, 2013, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 02, 2013, 11:01:54 PM
:rollin Now that makes a lot more sense.

Of course that still doesn't hold true, because sometimes if you cut out all of the crappy bits, you're left with no song at all! :biggrin:

Well yeah. But generally speaking, it reminded me of a statement like, "This would be good, if they improved all the bad parts."

This song would be good if it was a good song. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 03, 2013, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 29, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
PoW is a great song. People only dislike it because they read about other people disliking it online and subconsciously dislike the song in order to fit with public opinion

Uhhhhhh what Hef said.

Not everyone is a bandwagon hater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 12:41:46 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on September 02, 2013, 11:16:40 PM

This song would be good if it was a good song. :neverusethis:

Exactly! It would be good if it didn't suck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 03, 2013, 12:48:56 AM
OK, Here goes! Don't kill me for this;

I think that Petrucci's guitar playing has been getting "more simple"  than before.
Looking back at I&W and FII he had that these cool groovy , almost funky guitar riffs and solos.
But novadays its mostly these low riffs and power chords and super fast soloing.

Haha xD sorry.  I'll delete my account now. sorry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 03, 2013, 12:50:27 AM
Quote from: ? on September 02, 2013, 01:59:06 PM
My controversial opinion on RTK is that I've never cared about it or liked the lyrics and I think it's the most overrated non-album track by DT.

It's a top 20 DT song for me, maybe even top 10.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 03, 2013, 01:05:44 AM
Quote from: adastra on September 03, 2013, 12:48:56 AM
OK, Here goes! Don't kill me for this;

I think that Petrucci's guitar playing has been getting "more simple"  than before.
Looking back at I&W and FII he had that these cool groovy , almost funky guitar riffs and solos.
But novadays its mostly these low riffs and power chords and super fast soloing.

Haha xD sorry.  I'll delete my account now. sorry.

You're goddamn right, i miss songs in the style of TTT and LitS  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on September 03, 2013, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: JPX on September 02, 2013, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: robwebster on September 02, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
Ooh. If we're doing B-Side based opinions, I reckon Don't Look Past Me would've been far and away the best song on Images and Words, had it been recorded for the album.

 :o You seriously think that DLPM is better than everything on I&W?
Yeah, I reckon so! "Far and away" might've been overegging it, given the quality of the tracks that are already on there, but I reckon I like it comfortably more than Pull Me Under, Another Day, Take The Time, Metropolis and Wait for Sleep. Under a Glass Moon and Surrounded are its main competition, for me, and... yeah, it could take them!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on September 03, 2013, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on September 02, 2013, 09:20:50 PM
Awake is the most overrated album.

No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 03, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
Not sure how controversial this is, but I think the bonus disc of covers that came with BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 12:02:55 PM
Eh. I only really liked part of the Queen one. The rest was pretty forgettable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 03, 2013, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 03, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
Not sure how controversial this is, but I think the bonus disc of covers that came with BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

:hifive:

Odyssey, Take your fingers from my hair and the Queen ones are my favorite!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 12:45:43 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 12:02:55 PM
Eh. I only really liked part of the Queen one. The rest was pretty forgettable.

Stargazer wants a word with you! D:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 12:46:22 PM
Can't even remember it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 12:49:27 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 12:46:22 PM
Can't even remember it.

Not even the original?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 01:08:04 PM
Never heard it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 03, 2013, 02:38:42 PM
Come on, man. I have to admit that I've never heard the DT version though :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on September 03, 2013, 04:55:04 PM
For some reason I cannot bring myself to enjoy DT doing cover songs...

Ironically enough, their cover of Master of Puppets contributed to me becoming a fan. After that though, I have been lost in their own material only and ignored any covers along the way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on September 03, 2013, 04:57:48 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 03, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
Not sure how controversial this is, but I think the bonus disc of covers that came with BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

I'd agree. BC&SL aged really badly and I've probably listened to the covers more than the actual album at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 03, 2013, 04:58:02 PM
Why cut out anything DT?  That's just weird. You may not like them much or even like them a lot but to not even give them a spin is foolish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 03, 2013, 01:08:04 PM
Never heard it.

Well, that is a shame.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 03, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
Not sure how controversial this is, but I think the bonus disc of covers that came with BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

Some of the covers are great, but no.

Controversial opinion - I don't like a lot of DT's covers, because they're not suited to straight rock/metal covers (I can't speak for the more prog stuff, since I don't know the original songs, and don't listen to them). While the stuff on Uncovered is technically played well, it doesn't have the feel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on September 03, 2013, 10:19:42 PM
I usually find DT covers uninteresting, but I think their cover of Funeral for a Friend is nothing short of spectacular. I find myself listening to it quite a bit more than the original. MP and JP just inject so much energy and life into that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 10:54:06 PM
I usually like DT's covers better than the originals. Diary of a Madman, for example. But that's just because I think JLB is a much better singer than Ozzy, and I don't even know how controversial that statement would be on this forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 10:54:06 PM
I usually like DT's covers better than the originals. Diary of a Madman, for example. But that's just because I think JLB is a much better singer than Ozzy, and I don't even know how controversial that statement would be on this forum.

JLB is undoubtedly the better singer (I love every Ozzy album, but even he's always been the first to admit he's not a strong singer), but I still don't feel he fit the song as well as Ozzy did, and the original backing is better imo, especially with the real strings and choir (not that I'm expecting DT should have had all that to cover one song, but it is what it is).
And while JLB did a good job with both Heaven and Hell and Mother Father, it's not fair to compare present day live JLB to Dio and Steve Perry at their peak in the studio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 11:10:11 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
JLB is undoubtedly the better singer (I love every Ozzy album, but even he's always been the first to admit he's not a strong singer), but I still don't feel he fit the song as well as Ozzy did, and the original backing is better imo, especially with the real strings and choir (not that I'm expecting DT should have had all that to cover one song, but it is what it is).
And while JLB did a good job with both Heaven and Hell and Mother Father, it's not fair to compare present day live JLB to Dio and Steve Perry at their peak in the studio.

I actually thought that JLB kinda phoned in the performance on Heaven and Hell. It didn't sound like he was particularly trying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:22:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 03, 2013, 11:10:11 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
JLB is undoubtedly the better singer (I love every Ozzy album, but even he's always been the first to admit he's not a strong singer), but I still don't feel he fit the song as well as Ozzy did, and the original backing is better imo, especially with the real strings and choir (not that I'm expecting DT should have had all that to cover one song, but it is what it is).
And while JLB did a good job with both Heaven and Hell and Mother Father, it's not fair to compare present day live JLB to Dio and Steve Perry at their peak in the studio.

I actually thought that JLB kinda phoned in the performance on Heaven and Hell. It didn't sound like he was particularly trying.

He was probably trying to pace himself. It's Dio, who usually sang full power for the entire song, and it's higher in range too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 01:40:31 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:22:20 PM
He was probably trying to pace himself. It's Dio, who usually sang full power for the entire song, and it's higher in range too.

It's not terribly high. Holy Diver actually has a couple of higher parts. That's the thing, too, it felt like it wasn't that hard for James. Like he wasn't even trying, really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on September 04, 2013, 06:20:38 PM
That Heaven and Hell cover like that really makes you appreciate RJD that much more. Vocally, it was a pretty bad cover and stylistically off. JLB is not right for the style of RJD. He did a far better job on Stargazer of trying to sing in the style. In both cases, JLB simply does not have the tools to do these RJD songs justice. It just doesn't sound right to me. His voice is just too tiny, among other things.

Someone compared JLB to Ozzy in terms of singing earlier. I don't think Ozzy would do very well at all in DT, and I don't think JLB can do Black Sabbath right. I wouldn't like to hear either one of them do the other's songs. I don't want to be forced to compare them either, so I probably won't listen to any DT covers of Ozzy B. Sabbath if I can help it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
I disagree. Not about Heaven and Hell, but I thought he did a fantastic job on Stargazer. Vocally, I enjoy it just as much as the original. And musically, I enjoy the cover better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on September 04, 2013, 06:40:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
I disagree. Not about Heaven and Hell, but I thought he did a fantastic job on Stargazer. Vocally, I enjoy it just as much as the original. And musically, I enjoy the cover better.

He was more stylistically in line with the original on Stargazer, but after listening to the original, this cover leaves you empty. In order to cover one of the greatest rock/metal singers of all time, you have to be in that upper echelon. Unfortunately that is what is lacking here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 04, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
Live yes, in the studio, it was perfect.  It was a great cover.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 08:29:48 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 01:40:31 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 03, 2013, 11:22:20 PM
He was probably trying to pace himself. It's Dio, who usually sang full power for the entire song, and it's higher in range too.

It's not terribly high. Holy Diver actually has a couple of higher parts. That's the thing, too, it felt like it wasn't that hard for James. Like he wasn't even trying, really.

The verses are heavily centered around the B4 (and go higher), which is moderately high when you need to keep it up for a whole verse at a time. We know JLB can sing much higher (and well), but it's all about pacing/phrasing.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
I disagree. Not about Heaven and Hell, but I thought he did a fantastic job on Stargazer. Vocally, I enjoy it just as much as the original. And musically, I enjoy the cover better.

He did a great job on Stargazer, although it still wasn't Dio. But it was an impressive vocal by JLB. Musically, I think I do enjoy the cover a little bit more for the heaviness, although both are good.

Quote from: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.

I like you already.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ColdFireYYZ on September 04, 2013, 09:36:37 PM
Quote from: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.
Misunderstood took a while to grow on me but I love it now. Not my favorite, but glad to see someone ranking it so highly!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 04, 2013, 09:40:17 PM
Quote from: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.

Sure.  It's top 30 for me, but I can see why someone would put it in the top 10 (the music's great and the lyrics are easy to connect to).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Orthogonal on September 04, 2013, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.

If it only it weren't for that outro...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on September 04, 2013, 11:09:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!

I so wish you could say the same for Scarred :emo:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on September 04, 2013, 06:40:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 06:37:04 PM
I disagree. Not about Heaven and Hell, but I thought he did a fantastic job on Stargazer. Vocally, I enjoy it just as much as the original. And musically, I enjoy the cover better.

He was more stylistically in line with the original on Stargazer, but after listening to the original, this cover leaves you empty. In order to cover one of the greatest rock/metal singers of all time, you have to be in that upper echelon. Unfortunately that is what is lacking here.

Leaves you empty, maybe. Certainly not me, and I think LaBrie is a better singer than many metal legends. Bruce Dickinson included. Now, Bruce is a better front man, and has much better stage presence and knows how to rile up the crowd. But as a singer, JLB is much more crafted, IMO. Dickinson just screams out half his lines, and it's nice and theatrical, but he just throws technique out the window half the time, I find.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 08:29:48 PM
The verses are heavily centered around the B4 (and go higher), which is moderately high when you need to keep it up for a whole verse at a time. We know JLB can sing much higher (and well), but it's all about pacing/phrasing.

Well, I can sing H&H without too much trouble, and I'm definitely not up to JLB's range.
Either way, I think the issue was in HOW he performed it, not so much in whether he had a hard time with it or not. It is the kind of song that needs heart put into it for it to sound effective, and he sounded like he just autopiloted through it, and that's where I think it failed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 04, 2013, 11:19:20 PM
Pretty much all SDOIT is in my top 20  :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 04, 2013, 11:25:44 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on September 04, 2013, 11:19:20 PM
Pretty much all SDOIT is in my top 20  :heart

I don't know how controversial that is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 04, 2013, 11:41:50 PM
What is the controversy in loving a album that most DT fans love?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:47:33 PM
Quote from: wasteland on September 04, 2013, 11:09:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!

I so wish you could say the same for Scarred :emo:

And I so wish Scarred was a good song, but you can't always get what you want. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 04, 2013, 11:50:45 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!

Yeah, I've always liked the outro! What a cool guitar work by Petrucci!

Someone was talking about Dream Theater's cover of Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding!  I think it is their best cover so far. 
And because of that cover I started to pay more attention Elton John's work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on September 05, 2013, 02:20:51 AM
Quote from: kneepel on September 04, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
Misunderstood is their best song.

Don't agree completely, but a great choice.  :tup

The outro is great. I'd like DT to more noise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on September 05, 2013, 02:29:50 AM
The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the TSS for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on September 05, 2013, 05:46:38 AM
I guess I don't really have any controversial opinions. I liked KM in DT better than any other keyboardist. This is a fairly common
opinion. I started skipping sections of songs and full songs a little bit on SFaM and quite a bit from 8V forward. I always thought
JLB was the weakest link, especially live and that DT could really have been bigger with someone akin to Dickenson. But all in all
I've enjoyed most of DT's work and they have been a top tier band for me since I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on September 05, 2013, 06:42:48 AM
I really like The Count of Tuscany lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on September 05, 2013, 08:43:53 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on September 05, 2013, 06:42:48 AM
I really like The Count of Tuscany lyrics.
Welcome! I like them too, only the way they're sung is sometimes a bit of a let down. Of course I don't mean I don't like the vocals, but lyrics like "All the finest wines improve with age" shouldn't be sung so angrily IMO. It just doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on September 05, 2013, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: emtee on September 05, 2013, 05:46:38 AM
I guess I don't really have any controversial opinions. I liked KM in DT better than any other keyboardist. This is a fairly common
opinion. I started skipping sections of songs and full songs a little bit on SFaM and quite a bit from 8V forward. I always thought
JLB was the weakest link, especially live and that DT could really have been bigger with someone akin to Dickenson. But all in all
I've enjoyed most of DT's work and they have been a top tier band for me since I&W.

And don't forget that JLB performances have been improving consistently in the last years. I have high hopes on him for the next tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RoeDent on September 15, 2013, 10:22:58 AM
I feel like this belongs here, so...

I don't like all these "fan polls" that DT are involved in these days. It's like the fans are trying to force DT into the mainstream. The whole thing where you can vote every hour is ridiculous! Maybe it shows the fans have too much time on their hands. And I don't feel comfortable at all with the band themselves endorsing these polls. Just stick to making awesome music. You don't need these polls to tell you you're one of the best bands ever. We all know that. It seems like we're losing focus on what really matters ahead of this album release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 15, 2013, 10:43:05 PM
Quote from: RoeDent on September 15, 2013, 10:22:58 AM
I feel like this belongs here, so...

I don't like all these "fan polls" that DT are involved in these days. It's like the fans are trying to force DT into the mainstream. The whole thing where you can vote every hour is ridiculous! Maybe it shows the fans have too much time on their hands. And I don't feel comfortable at all with the band themselves endorsing these polls. Just stick to making awesome music. You don't need these polls to tell you you're one of the best bands ever. We all know that. It seems like we're losing focus on what really matters ahead of this album release.

I can kind of see your point, but let's face it, the polls hurt nobody and it's some nice promotion for the band after all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RoeDent on September 16, 2013, 02:08:16 AM
Yes, I know. But it's the exact reason why Rolling Stone give them a hard time, and I hate seeing any criticism of DT. It may be terribly shallow or whatever, but I think everything DT do is pretty much perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: eviljust on September 16, 2013, 02:17:31 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on September 05, 2013, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: emtee on September 05, 2013, 05:46:38 AM
I guess I don't really have any controversial opinions. I liked KM in DT better than any other keyboardist. This is a fairly common
opinion. I started skipping sections of songs and full songs a little bit on SFaM and quite a bit from 8V forward. I always thought
JLB was the weakest link, especially live and that DT could really have been bigger with someone akin to Dickenson. But all in all
I've enjoyed most of DT's work and they have been a top tier band for me since I&W.

And don't forget that JLB performances have been improving consistently in the last years. I have high hopes on him for the next tour.

I was a lot worried when I heard him on 2008 though...that was a real disappointment to me.

My controversial opinion, uhm, I still don't like Scarred  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: m0hawk on September 16, 2013, 06:53:33 AM
A Change of Seasons is easily the weakest of the mega-sized epics they've made. There are 2 amazing sections (Carpe Diem + Another World), but the rest of the song doesn't capture my interest, attention, or evokes any sort of emotion from me. But, for a band's first foray into the realm of 20mins-ish epics, they did a good job  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 16, 2013, 07:20:02 PM
Illumination Theory is their best epic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on September 16, 2013, 07:31:05 PM
The past 4 albums (including DT12) is the best 4 album run in Dream Theater history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on September 16, 2013, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: Lucien on September 16, 2013, 07:20:02 PM
Illumination Theory is their best epic.

I think it's a bit early to judge that with any real accuracy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 16, 2013, 10:19:53 PM
I don't even consider IT an epic. Take out the easter egg, which isn't part of the song, and it's the same length as TCOT. And it feels very disjointed with that ambient section, and the breaks.

That's not a knock on the song though, as most of it is great, but its length is very artificial to me.

Octavarium is still easily the best of the ~20 minute epics imo (SDOIT is in a league of its own).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on September 16, 2013, 10:22:09 PM
Octavarium is the most cohesive Dream Theater epic, and I doubt they will do anything that will come close to that song. Illumination Theory is fantastic, but it's another type of "epic", to say something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 16, 2013, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 16, 2013, 10:19:53 PM
I don't even consider IT an epic. Take out the easter egg, which isn't part of the song, and it's the same length as TCOT. And it feels very disjointed with that ambient section, and the breaks.

That's not a knock on the song though, as most of it is great, but its length is very artificial to me.

Octavarium is still easily the best of the ~20 minute epics imo (SDOIT is in a league of its own).

I agree with every word of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 17, 2013, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: m0hawk on September 16, 2013, 06:53:33 AM
A Change of Seasons is easily the weakest of the mega-sized epics they've made. There are 2 amazing sections (Carpe Diem + Another World), but the rest of the song doesn't capture my interest, attention, or evokes any sort of emotion from me. But, for a band's first foray into the realm of 20mins-ish epics, they did a good job  :tup
My opinion is the opposite: ACOS is the only 20+ minute DT song I actually care about.

*hides*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on September 17, 2013, 01:27:57 AM
ACOS is awesome and 8V is too. ITPOE, meh. But I don't think anyone will be comparing those with Illumination Theory. Not because either is far stronger, but just because they don't feel like they are song that can be compared. They are entirely different structure and purpose-wise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on September 17, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
I don't even consider IT as an epic. All sections are highly disjointed but that doesn't mean this song is bad. I think it's the best on the album but when I think all sections in each their own I enjoy them even more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 17, 2013, 02:08:05 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on September 17, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
I don't even consider IT as an epic. All sections are highly disjointed but that doesn't mean this song is bad. I think it's the best on the album but when I think all sections in each their own I enjoy them even more.

I agree. I think most of the sections are excellent, and includes many high points for the album (and even for their career in some parts), but overall as a song it does feel a bit too disjointed to me.
But yeah, it doesn't mean the song is bad at all. It just doesn't feel too cohesive as one unit to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlackInk on September 17, 2013, 02:14:22 AM
Quote from: wasteland on September 17, 2013, 01:27:57 AM
ACOS is awesome and 8V is too. ITPOE, meh. But I don't think anyone will be comparing those with Illumination Theory. Not because either is far stronger, but just because they don't feel like they are song that can be compared. They are entirely different structure and purpose-wise.

I will be comparing them. I will compare Illumination Theory to every other song by a lot of bands in order to truly rank it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on September 17, 2013, 04:29:51 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on September 17, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
I don't even consider IT as an epic.

Agreed. The lenght is more TCOT-like, and I don't consider TCOT to be one of their "epics" either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on September 17, 2013, 04:50:18 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on September 17, 2013, 04:29:51 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on September 17, 2013, 02:04:39 AM
I don't even consider IT as an epic.

Agreed. The lenght is more TCOT-like, and I don't consider TCOT to be one of their "epics" either.

The lenght is not the reason for that matter for me. TCOT's sections are at least somewhat connected whereas IS's are not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: farsight on September 17, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
After listening to the new album, IMO Dream Theater took a five year hiatus in 2006 and reformed in 2011 with an album named A Dramatic Turn of Events.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 17, 2013, 06:28:58 AM
Quote from: farsight on September 17, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
After listening to the new album, IMO Dream Theater took a five year hiatus in 2006 and reformed in 2011 with an album named A Dramatic Turn of Events.

That's not an opinion. That just doesn't even make sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: farsight on September 17, 2013, 07:17:32 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 17, 2013, 06:28:58 AM
Quote from: farsight on September 17, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
After listening to the new album, IMO Dream Theater took a five year hiatus in 2006 and reformed in 2011 with an album named A Dramatic Turn of Events.

That's not an opinion. That just doesn't even make sense.
Sorry for the poor english. If you want me to rephrase it, then if DT took a hiatus instead of making Systematic Chaos and BCaSL, I'd be totally cool with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 17, 2013, 07:20:52 AM
Quote from: farsight on September 17, 2013, 07:17:32 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 17, 2013, 06:28:58 AM
Quote from: farsight on September 17, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
After listening to the new album, IMO Dream Theater took a five year hiatus in 2006 and reformed in 2011 with an album named A Dramatic Turn of Events.

That's not an opinion. That just doesn't even make sense.
Sorry for the poor english. If you want me to rephrase it, then if DT took a hiatus instead of making Systematic Chaos and BCaSL, I'd be totally cool with it.

I wouldn't. I was disappointed enough with ADTOE, so I can only imagine how it would have felt waiting that long for it instead of 2 years, and SC and BCASL have some amazing stuff on them. I'd rather have both of those than ADTOE.

I'll tell you what. You can have custody of ADTOE, and I'll take SC and BCASL. Then everyone's happy. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on September 17, 2013, 07:26:27 AM
I rank SC into the top third.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 17, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
I think DT12 is for me what BC&SL is for most others  :-[
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: eviljust on September 17, 2013, 05:59:45 PM
Quote from: wasteland on September 17, 2013, 01:27:57 AM
ACOS is awesome and 8V is too. ITPOE, meh. But I don't think anyone will be comparing those with Illumination Theory. Not because either is far stronger, but just because they don't feel like they are song that can be compared. They are entirely different structure and purpose-wise.

Totally agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 17, 2013, 06:11:16 PM
Octavarium > A Change of Seasons > In the Presence of Enemies >>>>> Illumination Theory

If we're not counting TCoT as an epic, we shouldn't count IT either in my opinion. And it's simply not on the same god-tier level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on September 17, 2013, 06:45:58 PM
I absolutely loved Illumination Theory and I'm pretty sure it will rank at least in my Top 5 Dream Theater (band  ;)) songs, but I agree in that IT didn't feel like an epic. The ambient section cuts a whole part off the song and makes it feel a lot shorter than what the average epic does. Take 8VM and ACoS for example. Both of those feel like long songs (godly as they are, of course). IT doesn't.

On the other hand, my new unpopular opinion would be that I think IT flows very well, if that is the argument with the "it's not cohesive" thing  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aXygnus on September 17, 2013, 08:34:17 PM
BC&SL only has three good parts in all the album for me: The Best of Times' outro and solo (best Petrucci solo EVER), The Count of Tuscany's last part after the melancholic break, and Beautiful Agony.

SC has The Ministry of Lost Souls (Top 10 song for me probably), everything from ITPOE Pt. 1's 7 minutes onwards, and some parts here and there in Pt. 2.


That's good enough for them to exist IMO... But they're still below average albums DT wise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on September 18, 2013, 06:30:03 AM
After listening to DT12, I'm scared of DT, becoming Toto on steroids. Way too much precision and a clear desire to become mainstream. IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 18, 2013, 06:57:54 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on September 18, 2013, 06:30:03 AM
After listening to DT12, I'm scared of DT, becoming Toto on steroids. Way too much precision and a clear desire to become mainstream. IMHO.

There's nothing wrong with Toto, my friend! I actually prefer Toto's self titled to DT's self titled.

But this is DT. I don't think there's any chance of them going mainstream. DT12's song lengths are overall shorter, but they're no more mainstream at all. And 2 instrumentals, and a 20 minute song are about as far from mainstream as you can get.
DT have always had an accessibility to their music. We probably wouldn't be here today discussing this if PMU wasn't a hit for them all the way back on their second album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on September 18, 2013, 07:05:05 AM
DT is, and has always been, the most mainstream music that I listen to. I don't think you can go much more mainstream in this genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Whatsername on September 18, 2013, 07:41:27 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 18, 2013, 06:57:54 AM
There's nothing wrong with Toto, my friend! I actually prefer Toto's self titled to DT's self titled.

But this is DT. I don't think there's any chance of them going mainstream. DT12's song lengths are overall shorter, but they're no more mainstream at all. And 2 instrumentals, and a 20 minute song are about as far from mainstream as you can get.
DT have always had an accessibility to their music. We probably wouldn't be here today discussing this if PMU wasn't a hit for them all the way back on their second album.

This. The song-lengths being shorter aren't a bad thing at all. Images And Words and Awake both are comprised of shorter songs, and I doubt anyone would say those albums were excessively mainstream.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on September 18, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
The difference is that I&W actually had very touching and genuine progressions all around the place, whereas DT12 has them only at one or two places and is often filled with cliched choruses and (in my opinion) uninteresting progressions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 18, 2013, 11:26:35 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on September 18, 2013, 06:30:03 AM
After listening to DT12, I'm scared of DT, becoming Toto on steroids. Way too much precision and a clear desire to become mainstream. IMHO.

Dude?!

There is no way DT becomes that popular.  They will never be mainstream.  And to chime in what Blob said, What's wrong with Toto.  Falling In Between is a killer album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 18, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on September 18, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
The difference is that I&W actually had very touching and genuine progressions all around the place, whereas DT12 has them only at one or two places and is often filled with cliched choruses and (in my opinion) uninteresting progressions.

I agree. Images pushed so many musical boundaries and defied so many musical conventions, and I feel like DT12 is almost the opposite. It's like Octavarium without all the amazing parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 18, 2013, 05:47:21 PM
Circus Maximus - The 1st Chapter > Octavarium
CM - Isolate > Systematic Chaos
CM - Nine > BCSL, ADTOE, DT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on September 19, 2013, 05:27:30 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 18, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on September 18, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
The difference is that I&W actually had very touching and genuine progressions all around the place, whereas DT12 has them only at one or two places and is often filled with cliched choruses and (in my opinion) uninteresting progressions.

I agree. Images pushed so many musical boundaries and defied so many musical conventions, and I feel like DT12 is almost the opposite. It's like Octavarium without all the amazing parts.

This. Sadly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on September 19, 2013, 05:42:03 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 18, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on September 18, 2013, 08:48:39 AM
The difference is that I&W actually had very touching and genuine progressions all around the place, whereas DT12 has them only at one or two places and is often filled with cliched choruses and (in my opinion) uninteresting progressions.

I agree. Images pushed so many musical boundaries and defied so many musical conventions, and I feel like DT12 is almost the opposite. It's like Octavarium without all the amazing parts.

In 2005 Dream theater showed us that they could do an album comprised mostly of awesome shorter songs with Octavarium. I hoped DT12 would be the same case but i was disappointed sadly.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 18, 2013, 06:57:54 AM

There's nothing wrong with Toto, my friend! I actually prefer Toto's self titled to DT's self titled.

Toto is just awesome, one of the best bands ever! Steve Lukathers solo stuff is also excelent :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on September 19, 2013, 06:05:10 AM
>DT hasn't made a really good album since 6DOIT for me.

-Despite this, I could still customize and make my own great DT-album with one or two songs from each album since 6DOIT.

>6DOIT is the best DT-epic.

>I&W is a great album, but not as good as SFAM, 6DOIT or Awake.

>Falling to Infinity is mostly really nice, and while it has some meh-songs, it's more consistent than recent albums.

>ToT is not as bad as some people say, in fact it's probably my favorite post 6DOIT-album.

>Disappear is my favorite DT-song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on September 24, 2013, 03:52:17 PM
I like the ambience in The Embracing Circle better than the orchestra. Slightly.

Also, I feel like IT should have one more part after Live Kill Die, akin to Carpe Diem from ACOS, or Medicate from 8VM. I think it would make the reflection or the climax at the end more meaningful, in other words it would have a better build up. Take this opinion with a grain of salt though (never thought I would say that), it takes me a little while to accept the epic for what they are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 24, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
Latest controversial thought:
  The lyrics to "The Looking Glass" are directed at/inspired by one Mr. Mike Portnoy. They just 'fit' his whole scenario perfectly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess should play piano 90% of the time. His synth stuff is very hit or miss, but every time he plays piano it's amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess should play piano 90% of the time. His synth stuff is very hit or miss, but every time he plays piano it's amazing.

Nothing more creative and prog than sticking to one plain ol' instrument!

Terrible idea. JR's strength is adding atmosphere and a unique feel to DT. I think it would a tragedy to think he should be limited to one instrument the majority of the time. A piano won't even fit with the music that often, and it would sound very samey.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 24, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
Latest controversial thought:
  The lyrics to "The Looking Glass" are directed at/inspired by one Mr. Mike Portnoy. They just 'fit' his whole scenario perfectly.

That's the thing with vague lyrics. You can basically fit them to whatever you want, no matter how wrong. People said the same thing about lyrics on ADTOE too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on September 24, 2013, 09:22:23 PM
Jordan should tinker around with a Harpsichord.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 24, 2013, 09:41:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:21:22 PM

Quote from: gmillerdrake on September 24, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
Latest controversial thought:
  The lyrics to "The Looking Glass" are directed at/inspired by one Mr. Mike Portnoy. They just 'fit' his whole scenario perfectly.

That's the thing with vague lyrics. You can basically fit them to whatever you want, no matter how wrong. People said the same thing about lyrics on ADTOE too.

Yeah, and I'll be honest....I may be looking for the connection. I USED to hold MP in very high regard for all the effort he put into satisfying the DT fans and being the 'leader' of DT. I probably put him on a pedestal he didn't deserve to be on....he's a flawed human being like the rest of us.
   But, the way he handled the split and the things he said in the months afterward.....the whole turning himself into the victim at every chance he could and a host of other comments and actions really put a sour taste in my mouth with anything concerning MP.
   I still buy Transatlantic and Neal Morse albums because the music is fantastic...heck I even bought The Winery Dogs......but I can safely say I don't think I'm a fan of him as a person any longer. Not that he should care about that or as if that is something anyone should care about. But to me....after essentially idolizing the guy since I was 16 it's been tough to see someone I used to hold in such high regard be a total D-Bag and selfish person and I guess I'm just waiting for one of the DT guys to call him out in it.
  But they've already shown who out of the two 'sides' has the class....and who doesn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:42:00 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on September 24, 2013, 09:22:23 PM
Jordan should tinker around with a Harpsichord.

That would rock. JR playing neoclassical unisons with JP on a mandolin or acoustic. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess should play piano 90% of the time. His synth stuff is very hit or miss, but every time he plays piano it's amazing.

Nothing more creative and prog than sticking to one plain ol' instrument!

Terrible idea. JR's strength is adding atmosphere and a unique feel to DT. I think it would a tragedy to think he should be limited to one instrument the majority of the time. A piano won't even fit with the music that often, and it would sound very samey.


Better than him sticking to the same circus patch and moog sounds. And I disagree with JR's main strength being atmosphere. I think that was KM's thing. Rudess's piano work on Scenes and even parts of ADTOE are some of the best stuff he's done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 24, 2013, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
circus patch

I vote that using the word "circus" should be a bannable offense around these parts.  It doesn't even have any meaning anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess should play piano 90% of the time. His synth stuff is very hit or miss, but every time he plays piano it's amazing.

Nothing more creative and prog than sticking to one plain ol' instrument!

Terrible idea. JR's strength is adding atmosphere and a unique feel to DT. I think it would a tragedy to think he should be limited to one instrument the majority of the time. A piano won't even fit with the music that often, and it would sound very samey.


Better than him sticking to the same circus patch and moog sounds. And I disagree with JR's main strength being atmosphere. I think that was KM's thing. Rudess's piano work on Scenes and even parts of ADTOE are some of the best stuff he's done.

JR barely uses a "circus patch". That's a generic JR criticism blown way out of proportion. The 5 seconds on TEI is the first time he's used something like that in a while from what I recall.
KM stuck to the same 3 sounds of his old keyboard, so there's only so much atmosphere you can get with synth strings + studio reverb. The atmosphere of Awake is mostly on the producer as far as I'm concerned.

Now listen to SDOIT (the album). The atmosphere JR creates on that blows the hell out of anything KM achieved with DT.

Quote from: theseoafs on September 24, 2013, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
circus patch

I vote that using the word "circus" should be a bannable offense around these parts.  It doesn't even have any meaning anymore.

Can we throw in "cookie monster" too? It seems like both terms have been completely watered down to meaningless by haters. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 10:15:42 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess should play piano 90% of the time. His synth stuff is very hit or miss, but every time he plays piano it's amazing.

Nothing more creative and prog than sticking to one plain ol' instrument!

Terrible idea. JR's strength is adding atmosphere and a unique feel to DT. I think it would a tragedy to think he should be limited to one instrument the majority of the time. A piano won't even fit with the music that often, and it would sound very samey.


Better than him sticking to the same circus patch and moog sounds. And I disagree with JR's main strength being atmosphere. I think that was KM's thing. Rudess's piano work on Scenes and even parts of ADTOE are some of the best stuff he's done.

JR barely uses a "circus patch". That's a generic JR criticism blown way out of proportion. The 5 seconds on TEI is the first time he's used something like that in a while from what I recall.
KM stuck to the same 3 sounds of his old keyboard, so there's only so much atmosphere you can get with synth strings + studio reverb. The atmosphere of Awake is mostly on the producer as far as I'm concerned.

Now listen to SDOIT (the album). The atmosphere JR creates on that blows the hell out of anything KM achieved with DT.

Quote from: theseoafs on September 24, 2013, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
circus patch

I vote that using the word "circus" should be a bannable offense around these parts.  It doesn't even have any meaning anymore.

Can we throw in "cookie monster" too? It seems like both terms have been completely watered down to meaningless by haters. :lol

So I guess my opinion is controversial. Maybe you should relax a bit. Jordan Rudess has used a lot of the circusy sounding patches in the last few albums. Personally I prefer his piano stuff. It's not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on September 24, 2013, 10:17:17 PM
Man, if I was at a circus and they started playing Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes, that would be basically the best thing ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 24, 2013, 10:27:49 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 24, 2013, 10:17:17 PM
Man, if I was at a circus and they started playing Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes, that would be basically the best thing ever.

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 10:29:06 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 24, 2013, 10:17:17 PM
Man, if I was at a circus and they started playing Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes, that would be basically the best thing ever.

Just wait until the clown comes out on a unicycle and starts riding the frayed tight rope!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DebraKadabra on September 24, 2013, 10:30:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 09:42:00 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on September 24, 2013, 09:22:23 PM
Jordan should tinker around with a Harpsichord.

That would rock. JR playing neoclassical unisons with JP on a mandolin or acoustic. :metal

That would be extremely radular indeed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on September 24, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 18, 2013, 06:57:54 AM
There's nothing wrong with Toto, my friend! I actually prefer Toto's self titled to DT's self titled.

 :metal Angela is an absolutely great closer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 24, 2013, 10:48:32 PM
Enigma Machine is kinda bad... easily their worst instr.
I wish I will never hear anything like this on DT record anymore :3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on September 24, 2013, 11:21:10 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 24, 2013, 10:17:17 PM
Man, if I was at a circus and they started playing Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes, that would be basically the best thing ever.

Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on September 22, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: Syzzle on September 20, 2013, 10:47:18 AM
What Circus/Carnival are you people going to that plays anything like the so called "circus parts" in [DT]'s songs?

Yeah, I hate when I visit the local circus and all they fucking play is[DT].

Fixed for this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 24, 2013, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: adastra on September 24, 2013, 10:48:32 PM
Enigma Machine is kinda bad... easily their worst instr.
I wish I will never hear anything like this on DT record anymore :3
I'm not the biggest fan of Enigma Machine, but I think it beats Raw Dog easily. That's not a huge achievement though :lol

Talking about the new album...

Impermanent Resonance > DT12
Illumination Theory is my 6th favorite song on DT12
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 24, 2013, 11:34:38 PM
Quote from: ? on September 24, 2013, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: adastra on September 24, 2013, 10:48:32 PM
Enigma Machine is kinda bad... easily their worst instr.
I wish I will never hear anything like this on DT record anymore :3
I'm not the biggest fan of Enigma Machine, but I think it beats Raw Dog easily. That's not a huge achievement though :lol

Talking about the new album...

Impermanent Resonance > DT12
Illumination Theory is my 6th favorite song on DT12

6th favourite!!?! C'mon Ville, You crazy POHOJALAANEN!  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 24, 2013, 11:36:40 PM
It has some great parts, but also some uninteresting bits and the way it has been put together isn't very good.

Also, I don't know if I can call myself a pohojalaanen because I was born in Turku :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 24, 2013, 11:39:57 PM
Quote from: ? on September 24, 2013, 11:36:40 PM
It has some great parts, but also some uninteresting bits and the way it has been put together isn't very good.

Also, I don't know if I can call myself a pohojalaanen because I was born in Turku :lol

yeah same here,  I'm originally from Rovaniemi. 
But I can agree about that with IT  .. It is pretty strangely put together..   I think that there might be a little too much soloing before the outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on September 25, 2013, 01:01:19 AM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on September 24, 2013, 08:13:49 PM
Here's one:

Jordan Rudess. every time he plays piano it's amazing.

 ;)

Free by OSI >>>>>>>>>> Octavarium
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 25, 2013, 01:03:18 AM
Quote from: Ruba on September 25, 2013, 01:01:19 AM
Free by OSI >>>>>>>>>> Octavarium
I don't know how you can compare these 2 albums, but :iagree:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on September 25, 2013, 01:06:09 AM
Quote from: ? on September 25, 2013, 01:03:18 AM
Quote from: Ruba on September 25, 2013, 01:01:19 AM
Free by OSI >>>>>>>>>> Octavarium
I don't know how you can compare these 2 albums, but :iagree:

I thought they were released on the same year, but apparently Free was on 2006. Oh well, close enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 25, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Can we throw in "cookie monster" too? It seems like both terms have been completely watered down to meaningless by haters. :lol

YES.  That means that DT-side discussion of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU) will henceforth be illegal, but honestly that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on September 25, 2013, 10:45:11 AM
I know I just said that Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes at a circus would be the best thing ever, but now I'm thinking that death metal vocals on Sesame Street would be even better. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 25, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 25, 2013, 10:45:11 AM
I know I just said that Jordan Rudess keyboard soloes at a circus would be the best thing ever, but now I'm thinking that death metal vocals on Sesame Street would be even better.

Well, Sesame Street does have the Cookie Monster.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on September 25, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
James is the most important member of the band.

Seriously, every good album is good *because* James is on point. Obviously this is why Images and Words and Awake are the best albums DT has put out, they were before the food poisoning incident and James doesn't hold back at all on either album.

This is also why the new albums suck. Well, okay, suck may be a harsh choice of words, but nothing after Awake lives up to those first two albums (of the JLB era). If DT want to release a new killer album that will be remembered as fondly as the early ones, they need to push James to give it his all. The only point on the newest album that even comes close is after the orchestral section of IT, "MOTHERS FOR THEIR CHILDREN!!" Yeah, that's the highlight of the album, no doubt. And it's because of James.

Now they just need to write a whole album like that, and we'll be talking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 25, 2013, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: Shine on September 25, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
Seriously, every good album is good *because* James is on point. Obviously this is why Images and Words and Awake are the best albums DT has put out, they were before the food poisoning incident and James doesn't hold back at all on either album.

This is also why the new albums suck. Well, okay, suck may be a harsh choice of words, but nothing after Awake lives up to those first two albums (of the JLB era). If DT want to release a new killer album that will be remembered as fondly as the early ones, they need to push James to give it his all. The only point on the newest album that even comes close is after the orchestral section of IT, "MOTHERS FOR THEIR CHILDREN!!" Yeah, that's the highlight of the album, no doubt. And it's because of James.

Now they just need to write a whole album like that, and we'll be talking.

James is indeed an important member of the band, and I&W and Awake are indeed the band's best albums.  But I totally disagree with the rest of this.  His vocals do not make or break an album.  And just because he's not screeching at the highest end of his range constantly, or even often, doesn't mean he's not "giving it his all."  That stuff much better serves a song/album when it is present only when called for.

But hey, I guess that's why this opinion is "controversial."  :biggrin:

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on September 25, 2013, 07:15:02 PM
Quote from: j on September 25, 2013, 06:37:23 PM
Quote from: Shine on September 25, 2013, 06:24:21 PM
Seriously, every good album is good *because* James is on point. Obviously this is why Images and Words and Awake are the best albums DT has put out, they were before the food poisoning incident and James doesn't hold back at all on either album.

This is also why the new albums suck. Well, okay, suck may be a harsh choice of words, but nothing after Awake lives up to those first two albums (of the JLB era). If DT want to release a new killer album that will be remembered as fondly as the early ones, they need to push James to give it his all. The only point on the newest album that even comes close is after the orchestral section of IT, "MOTHERS FOR THEIR CHILDREN!!" Yeah, that's the highlight of the album, no doubt. And it's because of James.

Now they just need to write a whole album like that, and we'll be talking.

James is indeed an important member of the band, and I&W and Awake are indeed the band's best albums.  But I totally disagree with the rest of this.  His vocals do not make or break an album.  And just because he's not screeching at the highest end of his range constantly, or even often, doesn't mean he's not "giving it his all."  That stuff much better serves a song/album when it is present only when called for.

But hey, I guess that's why this opinion is "controversial."  :biggrin:

-J

He doesn't necessarily have to be "screeching," so to speak, to make it great. But there absolutely has to be a balance. The more toned-down vocals are good in moderation, but they need to have the higher vocals playing against them, or else it just sounds bland.

I think a lot of this may have to do with the song writing, too. A lot of the "newer" stuff just isn't written to take advantage of his voice. They wrote a lot of music that might have sounded good with a rougher, grittier vocalist (a James Hetflield or a David Draiman), but they just had James sing it. Not everything is bad, ITNOG, TGP, TOT are all really good songs that sound great.

And I'm not trying to say that I don't like anything but I&W, Awake, and a select few other songs. I like Dream Theater as a whole pretty well, there are a few rotten eggs, but by and large Dream Theater is amazing. I just think I&W and Awake are god-teir albums, and everything else falls short of that golden standard that was set back in the early '90s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on September 25, 2013, 07:19:54 PM
I should also add that Moore was the best thing that ever happened to the band. But I don't think that qualifies as a controversial opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on September 25, 2013, 08:15:06 PM
It's too early to say anything definitive, but so far The Looking Glass > Every song of ADtOE minus Breaking All Illusions and Bridges in the Sky

Damn that song just clicked on me right away
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on September 25, 2013, 08:19:29 PM
Prophets of War is one of the best songs off of SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zubb999 on September 25, 2013, 09:15:44 PM
ToT is my least favorite album.
Breaking All Illusions is by far my ultimate favorite song by them.
I tend to listen to their newer stuff.
I jam the hell out of New Millennium!
Constant Motion is my favorite song to play on drums next to Dance of Eternity.
I like every song released by Dream Theater on their studio albums and Change of Seasons.
(Literally every song.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on September 25, 2013, 09:20:04 PM
Quote from: Shine on September 25, 2013, 07:19:54 PM
I should also add that Moore was the best thing that ever happened to the band. But I don't think that qualifies as a controversial opinion.

Yes it does, as much as everything else you said  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 01:02:36 AM
Quote from: Shine on September 25, 2013, 07:19:54 PM
I should also add that Moore was the best thing that ever happened to the band. But I don't think that qualifies as a controversial opinion.

Sure it does. Why wouldn't it?

Personally, I think firing Derek and hiring JR was the best thing to happen to the band. The two albums after he joined were the most inspired and amazing albums they've ever released.
KM was fine, but he's hugely overrated here. That's my controversial opinion of the day. :lol
He was good, but nothing special, and some of his lyrics are the worst of those particular albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 26, 2013, 01:21:11 AM
Derek > Kevin.

Kotowboy's Controversial opinion of the day.

Also Falling Into Infinity > Awake.

Kotowboy's Controversial opinion of the day 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 01:26:36 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on September 26, 2013, 01:21:11 AM
Also Falling Into Infinity > Awake.

Considering how often we agree, I don't know why we don't get along better. :lol

I'll agree with this one. And that's not just because of my low opinion of Awake, but also because I regard FII a lot higher than most people. I rank it #4 just behind the big 3 of SDOIT/SFAM/IAW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 26, 2013, 03:04:11 AM
Falling Into Infinity has Hell's Kitchen, Hollow Years, Lines In The Sane, Trial Of Tears.

Plus New Millennium - which I really like.

Awake has a better opening trio - but after that it just gets boring as hell for me...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on September 26, 2013, 03:26:15 AM
Quote from: Implode on September 25, 2013, 08:19:29 PM
Prophets of War is one of the best songs off of SC.

What he said.

Quote from: Zubb999 on September 25, 2013, 09:15:44 PM
ToT is my least favorite album.
I jam the hell out of New Millennium!

These too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: metrojam on September 26, 2013, 05:44:46 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 01:02:36 AM
Quote from: Shine on September 25, 2013, 07:19:54 PM
I should also add that Moore was the best thing that ever happened to the band. But I don't think that qualifies as a controversial opinion.

Sure it does. Why wouldn't it?

Personally, I think firing Derek and hiring JR was the best thing to happen to the band. The two albums after he joined were the most inspired and amazing albums they've ever released.
KM was fine, but he's hugely overrated here. That's my controversial opinion of the day. :lol
He was good, but nothing special, and some of his lyrics are the worst of those particular albums.

Don't think that anyone can argue that Jordan isn't a better technical player than Moore but I did prefer Moore's keyboard sounds to Jordan's (but that may just be because of the era and general tones around 20 years ago) But the bottom line was that KM lost his interest (if he even EVER really had any!) in DT's type of music and turned towards quite frankly I.M.O. totally tedious and boring arty farty type music, that bored me to tears, so I'm glad we have Jordan in the band these days and I'm sure the rest of the band is too! Plus his tedious attitude towards DT or his past with them, also shows that he really was never suited to being in DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on September 26, 2013, 06:09:42 AM
Controversial opinion: Derek was the best Keyboardist Dream Theater had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on September 26, 2013, 06:22:59 AM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on September 26, 2013, 06:09:42 AM
Controversial opinion: Derek was the best Keyboardist Dream Theater had.

I completely agree!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Upon many listens, I have decided that Dream Theater is Dream Theater's worst album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Laich21DT on September 26, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
I'd take When Dream and Day Unite or Falling Into Infinity over Octavarium (save the title track) and Systematic Chaos any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on September 26, 2013, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: Laich21DT on September 26, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
I'd take When Dream and Day Unite or Falling Into Infinity over Octavarium (save the title track) and Systematic Chaos any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 26, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Upon many listens, I have decided that Dream Theater is Dream Theater's worst album.

Except for WDaDU, I agree. Although a bad album by DT standards is an incredible album by any other standards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 26, 2013, 04:01:01 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 26, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Upon many listens, I have decided that Dream Theater is Dream Theater's worst album.

Except for WDaDU, I agree. Although a bad album by DT standards is an incredible album by any other standards.

A bad album by DT is a bad album anyway....the fans just overrate them, there is my controversial opinion  :xbones
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: marlencrabapple on September 26, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
I don't think John Petrucci really has an ear for audio fidelity. I'm really disappointed that he gave the okay for the last two albums' mix and master. If there was anything that Mike Portnoy was definitely good at, it was making sure the final product sounded great not only musically, but sonically as well. BC&SL and SC may have compressed to hell and back, but even then they were more dynamic than what we're stuck with for their self-titled album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on September 26, 2013, 04:17:30 PM
James LaBrie sounds goofy singing Blind Faith live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on September 26, 2013, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 25, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 24, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Can we throw in "cookie monster" too? It seems like both terms have been completely watered down to meaningless by haters. :lol

YES.  That means that DT-side discussion of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU) will henceforth be illegal, but honestly that's a price I'm willing to pay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA08YcnL1DE
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on September 26, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
Quote from: Tick on September 26, 2013, 04:17:30 PM
James LaBrie sounds goofy singing Blind Faith live.

If you're talking about the Chaos in Motion DVD, that's not really controversial at all. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on September 26, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on September 26, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
Quote from: Tick on September 26, 2013, 04:17:30 PM
James LaBrie sounds goofy singing Blind Faith live.

If you're talking about the Chaos in Motion DVD, that's not really controversial at all. :P
Well yeah, but I saw him perform it on that tour and it was just as goofy. Didn't realize others thought so as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on September 26, 2013, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Upon many listens, I have decided that Dream Theater is Dream Theater's worst album.

I agree. I can not connect with these songs at all, sadly. Everyone else seems to like it though, and that's great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 05:51:05 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 26, 2013, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Upon many listens, I have decided that Dream Theater is Dream Theater's worst album.

Except for WDaDU, I agree. Although a bad album by DT standards is an incredible album by any other standards.
I like WDaDU better. It sounds more unique and soulful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 26, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
My (maybe not so) controversial opinion: I think Jordan is much more musically at home on LMR than on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 26, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
My (maybe not so) controversial opinion: I think Jordan is much more musically at home on LMR than on DT12.

When listening to LMR, it felt like the JR that was on LTE/SFAM, so I got a similar feeling. I want him to do more of that in DT, and experiment more.
Not that I have a problem with what he does in DT at all, but it feels like he's tamed in a bit on recent DT albums, as opposed to his earlier ones that I prefer largely for that reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Oh boy, this should be controversial:

I want Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci to be replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on September 26, 2013, 09:20:12 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Oh boy, this should be controversial:

I want Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci to be replaced.

By exact clones of themselves, I presume? :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:20:22 PM
But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. :lol You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:20:22 PM
But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. :lol You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.
At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:33:04 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:20:22 PM
But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. :lol You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.
At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?

The only constants in DT since the start have been JP and JM, and JP has been a main songwriter since day 1, and biggest influence of DT's signature sound. The other primary songwriter for the past 14 years is JR. If you want to get rid of both at the same time, there is no doubt to me that would no longer be DT, and if you want both to be replaced, I get the feeling you really don't like DT anymore anyway, so should just move along.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on September 26, 2013, 09:56:20 PM
EDIT:  Ignore this.  My mistake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 26, 2013, 09:58:28 PM
I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning for wanting JP out.  Other than possibly eliminating his role as a producer.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 10:18:31 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:33:04 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:20:22 PM
But then it wouldn't be Dream Theater at all. :lol You're listening to the wrong band if you want both of them replaced.
At what point is Dream Theater no longer Dream Theater? Were they not Dream Theater before Labrie joined? Were they not Dream Theater after they changed their sound up with Awake? Were they not Dream Theater after Kevin Moore left? Were they not Dream Theater after Mike Portnoy left?

The only constants in DT since the start have been JP and JM, and JP has been a main songwriter since day 1, and biggest influence of DT's signature sound. The other primary songwriter for the past 14 years is JR. If you want to get rid of both at the same time, there is no doubt to me that would no longer be DT, and if you want both to be replaced, I get the feeling you really don't like DT anymore anyway, so should just move along.
Mike Portnoy was also a founding member, correct? There were fans saying that Dream Theater wasn't Dream Theater without Portnoy, which you obviously disagree with, so it's all subjective. A large part of Dream Theater's core is experimentation and change. Look at the massive degree of change that happened between their first, say, eight albums, from one album to the next. Dream Theater is a band built on reinventing itself every album. At this point, it seems like they're going out of their way to sound the same in very blatant ways. The last two albums by in large sound like they could easily be merged together into one really big album, except listeners would probably complain about how redundant the songs are. Dream Theater has become less like Dream Theater because they're losing the most important aspect of their core.

I'd rather Rudess and Petrucci show a willingness to honor the Dream Theater tradition of experimentation and change rather than be replaced. I just see it as a big problem.

Dream Theater is still one of my favorite bands of all time. They've fallen down a couple ranks recently, but they've still produced some of the greatest and most interesting music in history. I know they're still capable of doing that, so I'm not going to move on. There are a few cool and interesting parts on the new album, but I feel there's too much stagnation and attempts to recreate past sounds that outweigh those good moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 26, 2013, 10:22:39 PM
I don't know how that opinion led you to a desire for Petrucci and Rudess to "be replaced," but I agree that I'd like to see DT venture far outside of the prog metal bubble.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 10:23:10 PM
Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 26, 2013, 10:26:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 09:11:36 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 26, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
My (maybe not so) controversial opinion: I think Jordan is much more musically at home on LMR than on DT12.

When listening to LMR, it felt like the JR that was on LTE/SFAM, so I got a similar feeling. I want him to do more of that in DT, and experiment more.
Not that I have a problem with what he does in DT at all, but it feels like he's tamed in a bit on recent DT albums, as opposed to his earlier ones that I prefer largely for that reason.

I honestly think, and over the years JR let it shine through occasionally in comments, he often doesn't know what to play in DT's music. I specifically remember him mentioning the harder sections where he's just doubling the guitar.
LMR, to Marco's credit, was written by Marco actually, but in the bonus video he mentions how he specifically wrote the music to leave a lot of space for the other guys to fill.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Irock on September 26, 2013, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 10:23:10 PM
Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.
I think my opinion is that I'd like for Dream Theater to go back to experimenting with their music and changing their sound up, and that I'd rather JP and JR be replaced than have the band remain stagnant. I guess I kind of jumped the gun with my original comment. :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 10:53:39 PM
Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 26, 2013, 10:23:10 PM
Even though MP was a founding member, he wasn't a main songwriter, being a drummer (I'd argue that generally speaking, a drummer is usually the most replaceable member of any band).

My point was more about your opinion of getting rid of TWO members at once, rather than getting rid of any individual person. At this point I think they've successfully proven to still be DT in every case of new members, but for the reasons given, I don't think JP is replaceable, and to get rid of the two main songwriters at the same time would be catastrophically detrimental to their sound imo.

But I do share your desire for more experimentation, I just don't think they need to replace members to achieve that. I think it's a matter of approach.
I think my opinion is that I'd like for Dream Theater to go back to experimenting with their music and changing their sound up, and that I'd rather JP and JR be replaced than have the band remain stagnant. I guess I kind of jumped the gun with my original comment. :laugh:

Ok, well that sentiment I can completely understand! And I would also like to hear more experimentation. But I like the members of DT far too much (with JR and JP perhaps being my favourites) to ever wish they'd be replaced. :D
In my own opinion, if you replaced both of those guys, it just wouldn't have that DT sound, because they're a lot of what I love about DT's sound. I want to hear their diversity, not to have someone else's sound in there, if that makes sense. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 27, 2013, 09:08:33 PM
My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on September 27, 2013, 11:24:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 27, 2013, 09:08:33 PM
My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.
I don't disagree, this is pretty much why I wanted them to take Minnemann in the first place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 28, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again  :-X

I think Mike completely missed his chance to make his big entrance into the DT family with his performance on this album. It's exactly what I was hoping it wouldn't be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on September 28, 2013, 10:45:10 AM
Quote from: adastra on September 04, 2013, 11:50:45 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 04, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
You're all lightweights. There's nothing wrong with the outro!

Yeah, I've always liked the outro! What a cool guitar work by Petrucci!

Someone was talking about Dream Theater's cover of Funeral For A Friend / Love Lies Bleeding!  I think it is their best cover so far. 
And because of that cover I started to pay more attention Elton John's work.
That is an awesome cover, and never really talked about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on September 28, 2013, 06:17:38 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 28, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again  :-X
Do you honestly have a problem with anything besides the snare?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 28, 2013, 07:04:34 PM
The snare is slightly too loud but when MM does any solos - the whole kit sounds awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 28, 2013, 07:05:57 PM

Quote from: Irock on September 26, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Oh boy, this should be controversial:

I want Jordan Rudess and John Petrucci to be replaced.

The two guys who write all the music and are responsible ( lol ) for DT sounding like DT.

If you replace Petrucci & Rudess - they will sound nothing like DT anymore and probably just some generic prog metal band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on September 28, 2013, 08:17:18 PM
I like DT but damn, work on your fucking CD's. Every time I decide to listen to Images and Words, the first fucking song cuts off. I mean, do they not realize they left material off this album??? It could have been so much better but no, they got too impatient and released an unfinished CD!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 28, 2013, 08:49:50 PM
NOT SURE IF SRS
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 28, 2013, 09:02:06 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 27, 2013, 09:08:33 PM
My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

Even if he wanted to have a more organic drum sound, I'm sure he wouldn't have pushed for it anyway.  Mangini seems entirely content to just go with the flow and let DT be exactly the same band DT has always been.  I'm not surprised there's nothing extremely new or innovative in the drum department on this album (though I'm not complaining, since I love Mangini and the new album).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 28, 2013, 09:10:27 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 28, 2013, 09:02:06 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 27, 2013, 09:08:33 PM
My controversial opinion of today: I think Mike Mangini closed the door with DT12 on a major opportunity to redefine DT's drum sound. While he had the chance to move DT into more natural-sounding, organic territory, he chose to go for that artificial prog metal drum sound.

Even if he wanted to have a more organic drum sound, I'm sure he wouldn't have pushed for it anyway.  Mangini seems entirely content to just go with the flow and let DT be exactly the same band DT has always been.  I'm not surprised there's nothing extremely new or innovative in the drum department on this album (though I'm not complaining, since I love Mangini and the new album).

Also keep in mind this was MM's first album as part of the writing process, so it's understandable if he didn't want to push too hard, or interfere too much with the existing dynamic writing. On the next album he may feel like having more input, or maybe not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 08:19:16 AM
MM chose to go with a... Prog and Metal drum sound? ... Gee, I wonder why he'd do something like that. It's not like DT is a Prog Metal band or anything.  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on September 29, 2013, 08:40:59 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 08:19:16 AM
MM chose to go with a... Prog and Metal drum sound? ... Gee, I wonder why he'd do something like that. It's not like DT is a Prog Metal band or anything.  ::)

Shoulda been polka
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 29, 2013, 12:14:37 PM
Quote from: Grizz on September 28, 2013, 06:17:38 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 28, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again  :-X
Do you honestly have a problem with anything besides the snare?

Pretty much every sound to come from him on the album sounds really inorganic and artificial to me. Like the little splash cymbal entry in Along for the Ride; it's a nice musical idea, but it just sounds horrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on September 29, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
You should listen to the FLAC or vinyl then, everything he does booms and sounds great, the cymbals splash with life, and the snares snarl with ferociousness. (awful, cheesy descriptions ftw)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on September 29, 2013, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: Dark Castle on September 29, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
You should listen to the FLAC or vinyl then, everything he does booms and sounds great, the cymbals splash with life, and the snares snarl with ferociousness. (awful, cheesy descriptions ftw)

The only means I've listened to DT12 so far are on the computer though, and I don't have the CD yet, so my opinion may change when I get around to buying it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on September 29, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.
SDOIT as an album is inconsistent and the title track doesn't deserve half the praise it gets.
Illumination Theory is the worst DT epic.
The new album is second worst only to SC.
DT's songwriting has only gotten less technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.
The guest vocalist on Lines in the Sand ruins the entire rest of the song for me.
Awake is the best DT album.
SFAM has no top 10 songs even if it's one of their better albums.
Ruddess is DT's least interesting keyboardist.
ANTR is a better song than it gets credit for. TBOT as well.
Burning My Soul is so much worse than You Not Me it isn't even funny. I'm not laughing.

Can't think of any more horrible things to say about the band right now though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: Parama on September 29, 2013, 12:55:46 PM

Can't think of any more horrible things to say about the band right now though.

Oh Go on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on September 29, 2013, 01:45:15 PM
Glass prison is horrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 29, 2013, 01:46:15 PM
Oh come on now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on September 29, 2013, 02:22:07 PM
There's no DT song called Glass Prison? ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 29, 2013, 02:25:23 PM
Quote from: Parama on September 29, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.

TBOT exists.

Quote
SDOIT as an album is inconsistent and the title track doesn't deserve half the praise it gets.

True, but the first disc is spectacular.

Quote
DT's songwriting has only gotten less technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

Quote
SFAM has no top 10 songs even if it's one of their better albums.

No top 10 songs, I agree, but I consider it just a middle of the pack DT album.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: j on September 29, 2013, 02:25:23 PM
Quote
DT's songwriting has only gottenless technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

"Progressive metal blends elements of heavy metal and progressive rock music, taking the loud "aggression", amplified electric guitar-driven sound of the former, with the more experimental, complex and "pseudo-classical" compositions of the latter. Progressive metal often utilises the conceptual themes associated with progressive rock."

Progressive rock: "It developed from psychedelic rock and originated, similarly to art rock, as an attempt to give greater artistic weight and credibility to rock music. Bands abandoned the short pop single in favor of instrumentation and compositional techniques more frequently associated with jazz or classical music in an effort to give rock music the same level of musical sophistication and critical respect. Songs were replaced by musical suites that often stretched to 20 or 40 minutes in length and contained symphonic influences, extended musical themes, fantasy-like ambiance and lyrics, and complex orchestrations."

Art rock:  "The concept of art rock has also sometimes been used to refer to the progressive rock bands which became popular in the 1970s. Allmusic states that "Progressive rock and art rock are two almost interchangeable terms describing a mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility."
"Art rock was a form of music which wanted to "extend the limits of rock & roll", and opted for a more experimental and conceptual outlook on music."


Every word here still describes Dream Theater, and has ALWAYS described Dream Theater. They are still EXTREMELY progressive. I don't even know how you can say they aren't. Dream Theater is an art.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on September 29, 2013, 03:20:50 PM
Quote from: Parama on September 29, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.

I don't understand this.  I like most DT lyrics, but TCOT's lyrics are just pitiful. Completely ruins the song for me, and I would almost be embarrassed to show people that song because of it.

Glad that the lyrics have been greatly improved on these last two albums.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on September 29, 2013, 03:44:24 PM
TCOT and TBOT have lyrics that are amusingly bad. Some lines of Blind Faith make me cringe and I can't hardly listen to the song. It's one of my least favorite DT songs, bottom 5, largely because of the lyrics, though the music is nothing special.
And SDOIT disc one is pretty solid I guess, but it's not amazing. Blind Faith is on it, Misunderstood drags, TGD drags, ehh...
DT12 is largely poppy songs with prog elements, is what I come away from it feeling. The proggy bits feel forced, too, like they only made it that way so it would still be "prog".
And I don't mind the shorter track lengths, but the songs are just so... simple.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on September 29, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
I would love to know how the songs on DT12 are "so simple"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on September 29, 2013, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: j on September 29, 2013, 02:25:23 PM
Quote
DT's songwriting has only gottenless technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

*snip*

Every word here still describes Dream Theater, and has ALWAYS described Dream Theater. They are still EXTREMELY progressive. I don't even know how you can say they aren't. Dream Theater is an art.

Well, as I understand it, there's a difference between 'progressive' the genre and 'progressive' the adjective.  Everything you just quoted describes progressive the genre, but progressive the adjective is more about pushing boundaries and trying new things.

Personally, I don't much care about labels, so it doesn't really matter to me.  But I thought I might be able to help you understand where j and others are coming from. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 04:14:39 PM
Surrender to Reason is hugely prog, The Enemy Inside is a hugely technical metal song, The Bigger Picture is a proggy power ballad, Illumination Theory is on it, FAS is just so DIFFERENT, The Looking Glass I guess is a Rush tribute (though some prefer the term ripoff  :yeahright), Enigma Machine is on it, Behind the Veil isn't prog, but that intro and the first lyrics are just so great. Along for the Ride is also not that prog, but its meant to be accessible.

I don't get how you could call this album simple.

Quote from: Jaffa on September 29, 2013, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: j on September 29, 2013, 02:25:23 PM
Quote
DT's songwriting has only gottenless technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.

I don't know about "less technical," but they're definitely not very progressive at this point.  But they're hardly the only band in their genre which, ironically, is largely stagnant and safe.

*snip*

Every word here still describes Dream Theater, and has ALWAYS described Dream Theater. They are still EXTREMELY progressive. I don't even know how you can say they aren't. Dream Theater is an art.

Well, as I understand it, there's a difference between 'progressive' the genre and 'progressive' the adjective.  Everything you just quoted describes progressive the genre, but progressive the adjective is more about pushing boundaries and trying new things.

Personally, I don't much care about labels, so it doesn't really matter to me.  But I thought I might be able to help you understand where j and others are coming from. 

I think they should listen to 1. The drumming (not the drum's sound, as I know they will just talk about that), 2. the introduction to BEHIND THE VEIL. Jordan certainly hasn't done anything like that. 3. When have they ever decided to go ONLY orchestra? 4. Also, the ambient section, they've never done that (except TCOT, but I'm not counting that because I'm talking PURE ambient).

There are multiple things they've never done before. They always progress. I think they're least "progressing" album would probably be ADTOE, but we all know why that happened.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on September 29, 2013, 04:15:49 PM
I guess that's what makes these opinions controversial :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on September 29, 2013, 04:15:49 PM
I guess that's what makes these opinions controversial :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 04:47:26 PM
I don't actually think that all of the turn of events on their previous album are all that dramatic. :dunno:

I don't really think that the chaos on display on DT9 is all that systematic - quite frankly :dunno:

I've listened to DT8 a number of times and to be quite honest - i've never felt trapped inside anything. :dunno:

Listening to DT5 does not give me flashbacks to any previous life or subconscious thoughts :dunno:

When listening to DT1 - Dream and Day have never once united... :dunno:


Not once whilst listening to DT4 have I ever fell into infinity. If I did - I'd still be there. Falling. I'm sitting in my room. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on September 29, 2013, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 04:47:26 PM
I don't actually think that all of the turn of events on their previous album are all that dramatic. :dunno:

I don't really think that the chaos on display on DT9 is all that systematic - quite frankly :dunno:

I've listened to DT8 a number of times and to be quite honest - i've never felt trapped inside anything. :dunno:

Listening to DT5 does not give me flashbacks to any previous life or subconscious thoughts :dunno:

When listening to DT1 - Dream and Day have never once united... :dunno:


Not once whilst listening to DT4 have I ever fell into infinity. If I did - I'd still be there. Falling. I'm sitting in my room. :dunno:

Let me guess... you slept through all of DT3?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 05:15:20 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on September 29, 2013, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 04:47:26 PM
I don't actually think that all of the turn of events on their previous album are all that dramatic. :dunno:

I don't really think that the chaos on display on DT9 is all that systematic - quite frankly :dunno:

I've listened to DT8 a number of times and to be quite honest - i've never felt trapped inside anything. :dunno:

Listening to DT5 does not give me flashbacks to any previous life or subconscious thoughts :dunno:

When listening to DT1 - Dream and Day have never once united... :dunno:


Not once whilst listening to DT4 have I ever fell into infinity. If I did - I'd still be there. Falling. I'm sitting in my room. :dunno:

Let me guess... you slept through all of DT3?

It wouldn't be unheard of
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 05:23:23 PM
Quote from: Lucien on September 29, 2013, 05:15:20 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on September 29, 2013, 05:05:57 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 04:47:26 PM
I don't actually think that all of the turn of events on their previous album are all that dramatic. :dunno:

I don't really think that the chaos on display on DT9 is all that systematic - quite frankly :dunno:

I've listened to DT8 a number of times and to be quite honest - i've never felt trapped inside anything. :dunno:

Listening to DT5 does not give me flashbacks to any previous life or subconscious thoughts :dunno:

When listening to DT1 - Dream and Day have never once united... :dunno:


Not once whilst listening to DT4 have I ever fell into infinity. If I did - I'd still be there. Falling. I'm sitting in my room. :dunno:

Let me guess... you slept through all of DT3?

It wouldn't be unheard of

Blates did. Blates. Totes slept thru the whole album :dunno:

I started listening to their 1995 EP in September and it's *STILL* Autumn. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 06:18:27 PM
Regarding the prog discussion, DT is prog, but not progressive. I also kind of disagree with the "DT is art" statement. If anything, that lack of artistic vision is a main detractor for me. Their music is entertainment, but I can't call it art (anymore).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 06:32:03 PM
I think Progressive can mean different things to different people. The problem with the genre is that at the peak of Progressive Rock, it was something new and revolutionary, and some people took that as something progressive. But if progressive means new and experimental by definition, then every band that's ever created a new genre or subgenre is progressive at their inception. By that definition, Soundgarden were progressive in the late 80s, and Metallica were progressive in the early 80s. But they can't be called "Progressive Metal" or "Progressive Rock" bands.
If Progressive Metal is a genre, then it can't be something that's new and experimental, because then it would be a genre that's always changing and constantly undefined. By that definition, Images and Words is a progressive album, but any album that sounds like I&W, but is released thereafter, is no longer a progressive album. In which case, what exactly is it, then?

That's why I don't go for the whole, "Progressive music has to be experimental" crap. If that's the case, then it should just be called "Experimental Rock" or "Experimental Metal" shouldn't it?
Progressive, to me, is a self-contained statement. If a song progresses in itself, with time signature changes, evolving musical ideas and motifs, then it's progressive. And by that definition, every DT album fits the description perfectly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on September 29, 2013, 06:43:38 PM
Maybe not experimental but it would be nice for the band to actively evolve their sound. They've been using the same playbook for nearly a decade.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 06:48:15 PM
I disagree. I would say that whatever definition of "progressive" should not just include any kind of experimentation, since it obviously should be a bit more specific than that. However, any band that has been sticking to their stylistic guns for a long time, and DT IMHO counts as that, can not possibly be "progressive" in any kind of sense. DT used to be progressive in their early days where every new album was a new exploration in music. SC->DT12 is the same type of music, in different variations. That may be labeled as "prog" to indicate the overall genre of instrumentation and writing approach, but it is not "progressive".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 29, 2013, 07:45:43 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on September 29, 2013, 04:03:39 PM
Well, as I understand it, there's a difference between 'progressive' the genre and 'progressive' the adjective.  Everything you just quoted describes progressive the genre, but progressive the adjective is more about pushing boundaries and trying new things.

Personally, I don't much care about labels, so it doesn't really matter to me.  But I thought I might be able to help you understand where j and others are coming from.

Quote from: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 06:48:15 PM
I disagree. I would say that whatever definition of "progressive" should not just include any kind of experimentation, since it obviously should be a bit more specific than that. However, any band that has been sticking to their stylistic guns for a long time, and DT IMHO counts as that, can not possibly be "progressive" in any kind of sense. DT used to be progressive in their early days where every new album was a new exploration in music. SC->DT12 is the same type of music, in different variations. That may be labeled as "prog" to indicate the overall genre of instrumentation and writing approach, but it is not "progressive".

Basically these.

@Lucien:
Of course DT's albums and songs are not all exactly identical, that would be ridiculous.  But they also don't evolve or change their sound; they rely on primarily the very same elements in their music that they always have.  They may be a "prog metal band" or whatever people who are into genres want to call it, but it is not really "progressive."

Don't get me wrong, just because I personally would like to see some significant departure from their formulas doesn't mean that they shouldn't stick to what they love and are good at.  And I still enjoy a lot of their music.  I just think "progressive" is a misnomer.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 06:48:15 PM
SC->DT12 is the same type of music, in different variations. That may be labeled as "prog" to indicate the overall genre of instrumentation and writing approach, but it is not "progressive".

Well, to be fair, when DT DID try to do something different and experimental and come out of their comfort zone (songs like TDEN and Prophets of War), fans generally didn't like it and still bitch about those songs to this day. So frankly, can you blame them?

Also, I personally feel like SDOIT -> 8VM is the same type of music in different variations as well. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, and that music is still progressive in the self-contained way I described earlier.

Like I said, to me, band sticking to its "Stylistic guns" has absolutely nothing to do with the term "progressive" as to me, that term represents the actual musical structure, rather than how the style evolves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on September 29, 2013, 08:01:31 PM
Dream theater used to be really cool, funky, and almost futuristic. Like the beginning of Take the Time and the riff in Strange Deja Vu and "Metropolis sur-rounds me." They don't do that anymore. I miss it, man. :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 29, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
People bitching bands don't sound the same after 12 albums. . .  :xbones :dunno:


AC/DC & Mötorhead are THATTAWAY  - - - - - - - - >


 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on September 29, 2013, 08:15:59 PM
So DTF is now an authority on reforming the English language? Abbreviations gain new meanings? Prog ≠ Progressive? I mean, I get the line of thinking, but that's one of the most extreme cases of hairsplitting ever. DT plays progressive metal, by the books. Whether or not there is a progression in their musical evolution is an entirely different subject matter and shouldn't be mixed up with something as simple as the name of a genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on September 29, 2013, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 06:18:27 PM
Their music is entertainment, but I can't call it art (anymore).

Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 29, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
What music can be called art?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 29, 2013, 09:08:08 PM
Quote from: Parama on September 29, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
Blind Faith has worse lyrics than TCOT by a few lightyears. Worst in the DT discography.
SDOIT as an album is inconsistent and the title track doesn't deserve half the praise it gets.
Illumination Theory is the worst DT epic.
The new album is second worst only to SC.
DT's songwriting has only gotten less technical and progressive over time. Less interesting, as a result.
The guest vocalist on Lines in the Sand ruins the entire rest of the song for me.
Awake is the best DT album.
SFAM has no top 10 songs even if it's one of their better albums.
Ruddess is DT's least interesting keyboardist.
ANTR is a better song than it gets credit for. TBOT as well.
Burning My Soul is so much worse than You Not Me it isn't even funny. I'm not laughing.

Can't think of any more horrible things to say about the band right now though.

I'm too lazy to reply, so I'm just bolding the most lolworthy ones for me.


Quote from: Zook on September 29, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
What music can be called art?

All of it, or none of it. I think it's kind of pretentious to draw arbitrary lines of what ones you feel can be considered "art".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 09:18:52 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 29, 2013, 09:08:08 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 29, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
What music can be called art?

All of it, or none of it. I think it's kind of pretentious to draw arbitrary lines of what ones you feel can be considered "art".

Agreed. I don't like all music, but then I don't like all art. Some art, I consider to be crappy art. But it's still art.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 09:32:28 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on September 29, 2013, 08:15:59 PM
So DTF is now an authority on reforming the English language? Abbreviations gain new meanings? Prog ≠ Progressive? I mean, I get the line of thinking, but that's one of the most extreme cases of hairsplitting ever. DT plays progressive metal, by the books. Whether or not there is a progression in their musical evolution is an entirely different subject matter and shouldn't be mixed up with something as simple as the name of a genre.

Dude, this distinction between "prog" and "progressive" has been going on for a long time, here and at many other places. It simply stems from the fact that while bands like Radiohead are clearly not "prog", a lot of people want to have a label for them that puts them and others into a category of "radically evolving, pushing the boundaries". Well, that label is "progressive".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 29, 2013, 09:39:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
Like I said, to me, band sticking to its "Stylistic guns" has absolutely nothing to do with the term "progressive" as to me, that term represents the actual musical structure, rather than how the style evolves.

Even so, can you really call the musical structure "progressive" anymore if it's been done for 20+ years?

Quote from: Sycsa on September 29, 2013, 08:15:59 PM
So DTF is now an authority on reforming the English language? Abbreviations gain new meanings? Prog ≠ Progressive? I mean, I get the line of thinking, but that's one of the most extreme cases of hairsplitting ever. DT plays progressive metal, by the books. Whether or not there is a progression in their musical evolution is an entirely different subject matter and shouldn't be mixed up with something as simple as the name of a genre.

Huh??  The word "progressive" had a definition long before there was any such thing as a genre of music called "prog."  And the thing you're calling simple (genre labels) is the source of a ton of unnecessary muddling of music discussion, which is why I personally have very little use for it.  DT (and plenty of others) may be conventionally known as a "prog metal" band, but that is very different from being *progressive* in the true sense of the word.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FourthHorseman on September 29, 2013, 09:53:24 PM
>>> Saying music is not art

>>> arguing over the definition of "progressive"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on September 29, 2013, 10:25:41 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on September 28, 2013, 10:34:44 AM
I feel like the drum sound on DT12 is so genuinely terrible that I can't even appreciate whatever it is that Mike's playing on the drums, no matter how amazing it really is. It just sounds so bad that I can't help but wish for the other Mike's sound again  :-X

I think Mike completely missed his chance to make his big entrance into the DT family with his performance on this album. It's exactly what I was hoping it wouldn't be.

I could not agree more, after more and more listens I do of course moments of brilliance but the sound of the drums is just not that good. They sound like the drums on an 80's Stryper record which is not good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 11:02:52 PM
Quote from: j on September 29, 2013, 09:39:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on September 29, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
Like I said, to me, band sticking to its "Stylistic guns" has absolutely nothing to do with the term "progressive" as to me, that term represents the actual musical structure, rather than how the style evolves.

Even so, can you really call the musical structure "progressive" anymore if it's been done for 20+ years?


But the music progresses as you listen to it. It starts out with one melody or riff, or rhythm, and then the time signatures change, the melodies and riffs grow or change, and even the tone of the song progresses as it goes on, from something more melancholy to something more aggressive, or something intense to something happy. It's the way it's always been, and still is the case with DT12, and it's what defines "progressive" to me, when pertaining to the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on September 30, 2013, 04:30:54 AM
*raises hand*

What is wrong with "experimental" as an adjective? If a band continually pushes musical boundaries, they are being experimental.

"Progressive rock/metal" is a genre of music. You may not like the etymology of this, but the fact remains that when you are discussing music and you say "that song is a really progressive" OR "that song is really proggy" (because prog is just an abbreviation for progressive), you are using a word that refers to a particular genre. It is NO DIFFERENT than if I say that a song is thrashy. I don't literally mean that the song is thrashing around like a dead fish or something, I'm saying the song shares many of the characteristics of the genre thrash metal.

The whole "prog/progressive" argument is really kind of ridiculous. It only serves to confuse when people start deciding that a band can be prog without being progressive or whatever. Dream Theater is a progressive band, because they do things like using unusual time signatures and displaying a high degree of technical ability. You may think that DT is not a very EXPERIMENTAL band, but it sounds silly to say something like "they're prog but not progressive."

Again, you may not like this, but terms have specific meanings, and spontaneously changing them when you for some reason can't say what you mean with the word "experimental" confuses exactly everybody.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on September 30, 2013, 04:52:26 AM
Quote from: rumborak on September 29, 2013, 09:32:28 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on September 29, 2013, 08:15:59 PM
So DTF is now an authority on reforming the English language? Abbreviations gain new meanings? Prog ≠ Progressive? I mean, I get the line of thinking, but that's one of the most extreme cases of hairsplitting ever. DT plays progressive metal, by the books. Whether or not there is a progression in their musical evolution is an entirely different subject matter and shouldn't be mixed up with something as simple as the name of a genre.

Dude, this distinction between "prog" and "progressive" has been going on for a long time, here and at many other places. It simply stems from the fact that while bands like Radiohead are clearly not "prog", a lot of people want to have a label for them that puts them and others into a category of "radically evolving, pushing the boundaries". Well, that label is "progressive".

Quote from: j on September 29, 2013, 09:39:39 PM
Huh??  The word "progressive" had a definition long before there was any such thing as a genre of music called "prog."  And the thing you're calling simple (genre labels) is the source of a ton of unnecessary muddling of music discussion, which is why I personally have very little use for it.  DT (and plenty of others) may be conventionally known as a "prog metal" band, but that is very different from being *progressive* in the true sense of the word.

-J

I'm aware of that, I had this discussion at progarchives forums probably around 2009, but it still seems just as ridiculous and arbitrary today. If it means something else for some people on certain forums, go ahead, but don't act like it's official. What's wrong with calling Radiohead experimental rock btw? And looking at "progressive" as a standalone adjective is off topic here, we're talking genre names. DT might not be progressive, but they always were, and always will be, progressive metal.

I fully agree with the two posts above me (TheGreatPretender, 425).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on September 30, 2013, 05:40:36 AM
Honestly, whenever the whole "prog/progressive" argument comes up, I realize how trivial genre labels are. What does it even matter? The only classification that matters is whether it's good or not to you. And as long as it's good, who gives a crap if it's progressive, or prog, or polkacore, or folk slop?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 30, 2013, 05:58:45 AM
Amen Blob, Amen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on September 30, 2013, 06:17:47 AM
Quote from: Zook on September 29, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
What music can be called art?

inB4 "Kid A & Amnesiac"  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 30, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
Really, all music is art. Even KrotchRaut. It was created, like a painting. A really shitty painting, and there are plenty of those in Museums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on September 30, 2013, 10:18:15 AM
Quote from: 425 on September 30, 2013, 04:30:54 AM
The whole "prog/progressive" argument is really kind of ridiculous. It only serves to confuse when people start deciding that a band can be prog without being progressive or whatever. Dream Theater is a progressive band, because they do things like using unusual time signatures and displaying a high degree of technical ability.

I agree, it's completely ridiculous.  And personally, there is no context in which I would use the term "prog" at all, certainly not to describe something that does not fit the full word it abbreviates.  But look at your final sentence in the quote above, and think about how you came to adopt that definition of the word "progressive."

Quote
Again, you may not like this, but terms have specific meanings, and spontaneously changing them when you for some reason can't say what you mean with the word "experimental" confuses exactly everybody.

Exactly!  Terms DO have specific meanings!  The definition of the word progressive "spontaneously changed" in a musical context a few decades ago, possibly for good reason, but does that mean that it necessarily still applies to everything we're told it does?  I'm not going to just start using it any way I want to obviously, because that would be unnecessarily confusing.  But I can still point out the absurdity of misapplying it.

I have no problem with the word "experimental," I think it's a great word in some ways to describe what I'm talking about.  But that doesn't make "progressive rock" NOT a misnomer when used to just mean funny time signatures and 20 minute songs. :lol

By the same token, what's wrong with using a word like "technical" to say what YOU actually mean?  It describes what you seem to be saying much better than "progressive."  Man, it'd be a lot less confusing if you could just say what you mean by using the word "technical." ::)

Quote from: Sycsa on September 30, 2013, 04:52:26 AM
And looking at "progressive" as a standalone adjective is off topic here, we're talking genre names.

Why are we limited to genre names?  All we're doing is using words to try to describe music.  I know very little and care to know even less about what constitutes the difference between arbitrary genre labels.  Frankly they tell you remarkably little about the music they claim to describe.

Anyway, I agree with everybody saying this is the dumbest argument ever, and yet here I am having it. :biggrin:

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ResultsMayVary on September 30, 2013, 10:42:16 AM
^Couldn't agree more. That's a huge pet peeve of mine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on September 30, 2013, 11:11:58 AM
Arguing semantics is always awful because believe it or not, words do change over time. They can also mean different things at the same time. It's just not worth the effort to argue which is correct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on September 30, 2013, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 30, 2013, 05:40:36 AM
Honestly, whenever the whole "prog/progressive" argument comes up, I realize how trivial genre labels are. What does it even matter? The only classification that matters is whether it's good or not to you. And as long as it's good, who gives a crap if it's progressive, or prog, or polkacore, or folk slop?

Really getting sick of this debate.  Genre labels might be the most meaningless, mind-numbingly dull things for music fans to talk about, and yet the issue comes up every week DT-side.

No, "progressive" does not literally mean "changing".  I do not actually have to think a band is "progressing" in order to call them "progressive", nor do I have to think that a band is made of stone if I call them "rock" or that they have anything to do with the mail if I call them "post". 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Obfuscation on September 30, 2013, 11:25:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 30, 2013, 05:40:36 AM
Honestly, whenever the whole "prog/progressive" argument comes up, I realize how trivial genre labels are. What does it even matter? The only classification that matters is whether it's good or not to you. And as long as it's good, who gives a crap if it's progressive, or prog, or polkacore, or folk slop?
I usually hate having to bring up talk about what genre is this or that band because at the end its all about whether is something you like listening to or not instead of worrying in what group it belongs too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on September 30, 2013, 02:03:51 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 30, 2013, 11:17:34 AM
nor do I have to think that a band is made of stone if I call them "rock"
JESUS MARIE, It's a mineral!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on September 30, 2013, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on September 30, 2013, 11:17:34 AM
No, "progressive" does not literally mean "changing".  I do not actually have to think a band is "progressing" in order to call them "progressive", nor do I have to think that a band is made of stone if I call them "rock" or that they have anything to do with the mail if I call them "post".

Totally agreed.

The problem I have with post rock though, is that it's pretty heavy and expensive to ship.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 30, 2013, 02:50:53 PM
Quote from: Zook on September 30, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
Really, all music is art. Even KrotchRaut. It was created, like a painting. A really shitty painting, and there are plenty of those in Museums.

To me that kind of definition of art renders the term meaningless. Art is clearly more than just mere creation. See below in my sig.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on September 30, 2013, 04:48:38 PM
Quote from: Implode on September 30, 2013, 11:11:58 AM
Arguing semantics is always awful because believe it or not, words do change over time. They can also mean different things at the same time. It's just not worth the effort to argue which is correct.

Implode just won the argument, guys. Show's over.

Back to controversial opinions, I think they need to experiment more with the ambient sections
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 01, 2013, 03:04:45 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on September 30, 2013, 05:40:36 AM
Honestly, whenever the whole "prog/progressive" argument comes up, I realize how trivial genre labels are. What does it even matter? The only classification that matters is whether it's good or not to you. And as long as it's good, who gives a crap if it's progressive, or prog, or polkacore, or folk slop?


Two genres, Good and Bad music  :xbones
Meaning, don't matter the genre if the songwriting is great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on October 01, 2013, 06:00:19 AM
My brother-in-law recently asked me what makes a band progressive.  I stammered over random words for a few minutes while confusing him further.  It's not easy to define and furthermore it's not a strict definition.  Bands from Pink Floyd to Tool have been labeled progressive while neither band sounds anything like the other. It's not a specific sound or even style. It's more about breaking through the boundaries of music and introducing something fresh, among other things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on October 01, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
I like the idea of literal sounding music genres!

Here are a few that spring to mind:

The blues


(https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/phil12323/blue-man-group_1247903c.jpg) (https://s95.photobucket.com/user/phil12323/media/blue-man-group_1247903c.jpg.html)

Rock

(https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/phil12323/rock.png) (https://s95.photobucket.com/user/phil12323/media/rock.png.html)

Metal

(https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/phil12323/metal.jpg) (https://s95.photobucket.com/user/phil12323/media/metal.jpg.html)

Country (well....close enough).

(https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/phil12323/twat.jpg) (https://s95.photobucket.com/user/phil12323/media/twat.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 01, 2013, 01:20:29 PM
The latest "James on CIM" thread brought this thought to my mind: while James' range was godlike in the I&W days and he reached some impressive notes, I think he overused the gritty vocal style and the high screams. Of course his vocals sound cool on those early live releases and bootlegs, but the original vocal melodies (on both WDADU and I&W) sound more pleasant to my ears and I think the raspy tone sounds a bit too aggressive on the I&W stuff, although it fits Awake perfectly. In the few bootlegs from the ADTOE tour I've heard James sounds better than ever IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 02, 2013, 04:33:02 PM
Quote from: puppyonacid on October 01, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
I like the idea of literal sounding music genres!

Rock?


(https://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m37/hollyvixen79/Dwayne%20Johnson/d-instyle2003-02.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on October 02, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
Came up with a new name for a debut album due to you guys:


The Divide Between Stone and Steel
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 02, 2013, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: Lucien on October 02, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
Came up with a new name for a debut album due to you guys:


The Divide Between Stone and Steel

Sounds cool.......but its more like the next book title for the Game of Thrones series.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on October 03, 2013, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 02, 2013, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: Lucien on October 02, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
Came up with a new name for a debut album due to you guys:


The Divide Between Stone and Steel

Sounds cool.......but its more like the next book title for the Game of Thrones series.

Wait really
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 03, 2013, 05:11:40 PM
Quote from: Lucien on October 02, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
Came up with a new name for a debut album due to you guys:


The Divide Between Stone and Steel

Any album with the word "steel" in its name will get pigeon-hold in a microsecond.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 03, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
It's a great title for a Manowar album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 03, 2013, 08:53:36 PM
Quote from: Lucien on October 03, 2013, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 02, 2013, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: Lucien on October 02, 2013, 04:36:57 PM
Came up with a new name for a debut album due to you guys:


The Divide Between Stone and Steel

Sounds cool.......but its more like the next book title for the Game of Thrones series.

Wait really

Not 'really'.....I just think it sounds like a perfect title to fit that Series
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on October 03, 2013, 10:43:32 PM
Probably not all that controversial to many, but I think DT12 may make it into my top 3 DT albums and I have never once thought that from ToT forward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 03, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: AngelBack on October 03, 2013, 10:43:32 PM
Probably not all that controversial to many, but I think DT12 may make it into my top 3 DT albums and I have never once thought that from ToT forward.

Depends on the person, but I totally agree with you. I really think they've made an amazing album, and while it won't be my #1, it's absolutely amazing that they made an album this great this far into their career. Not that I ever doubted they could.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on October 05, 2013, 10:52:30 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on October 03, 2013, 10:43:32 PM
Probably not all that controversial to many, but I think DT12 may make it into my top 3 DT albums and I have never once thought that from ToT forward.

I think it's in my bottom two or three.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on October 05, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
The bottle synth solo in Along For The Ride exceeds his older brother's (BTS) already remarkable level of awesomeness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on October 05, 2013, 11:11:50 AM
Quote from: wasteland on October 05, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
The bottle synth solo in Along For The Ride exceeds his older brother's (BTS) already remarkable level of awesomeness.

I agree. AFTR exceeds BTS's level of awesomeness in general imo, and BTS is one of my favourites from ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: djentlemen on October 07, 2013, 12:53:01 PM
DT was better with MP, even though ADTOE and DT12 are great albums, they really lack that DT feel. the music just sounds like its from another band.



man i miss MP :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mebert78 on October 07, 2013, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: djentlemen on October 07, 2013, 12:53:01 PM
DT was better with MP, even though ADTOE and DT12 are great albums, they really lack that DT feel. the music just sounds like its from another band.



man i miss MP :-\

I actually feel the opposite and think things are a step up from when MP was in the band.  For one, MP's lyrics were also personal rants, but JP and JM craft their words in such a way that the topics are relatable to the masses.  I also find DT's music much more consistently beautiful post-MP, which I tend to like.  But it's just a matter of preference, I suppose!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 07, 2013, 01:08:55 PM
Quote from: wasteland on October 05, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
The bottle synth solo in Along For The Ride exceeds his older brother's (BTS) already remarkable level of awesomeness.
I like both solos equally, but as a song I vastly prefer BTS, even though AFTR is nice and one of the few highlights of DT12 for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on October 07, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
FII is a classic DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BanksD on October 07, 2013, 04:30:10 PM
Constant Motion, Lie, and Anna Lee are 3 of my favorite DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 07, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
Enigma Machine is in the top 3 on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 07, 2013, 05:54:42 PM
Quote from: djentlemen on October 07, 2013, 12:53:01 PM
DT was better with MP, even though ADTOE and DT12 are great albums, they really lack that DT feel. the music just sounds like its from another band.



man i miss MP :-\

I agree with parts of this. Dream Theater w/ MM does sound quite different from Dream Theater w/ MP. But really, that's always been the case for DT whenever they got a new member. Does Dream Theater w/ KM sound quite different than Dream Theater w/ JR? Yes, of course it does! I think it's that way simply because of the way they write songs.

So, yes, we're in a new era of DT with a new sound. And yeah, I would love to hear a new Dream Theater album with Mike Portnoy (where would he have taken them next after BCSL?), even though I love Mangini and think he's definitely a better fit for the band. Much like how I would love to hear a new Dream Theater album with Kevin Moore, even though I love love love Jordan and think he's a better fit than KM was.

Ultimately, though, I don't want MP back. I think the band, particularly JM and JLB, are happier now, and I am excited to hear the great music that they will create in this new style. I think, while they are stylistically different from the other DT albums (then again so are the first four very different from SFAM-BCSL, and often different from each other), that these last two are among the best albums of their career, with many consistently good songs and a number of great songs.

Then again, I'm one of those fans that adores 99% of what the band has put out and I would probably put at least one song from every single album in my top 20. What I've found is that I'm adapting to the new style and learning to love it (successfully), just as I had to adapt to the JR albums as compared to the KM albums when I got those.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on October 07, 2013, 06:00:34 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.
Lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 07, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.

Go home XBOBX, you're drunk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on October 07, 2013, 06:49:27 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 07, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.

Go home XBOBX, you're drunk.
:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 07, 2013, 07:42:06 PM
This X-Box must have the Red Ring of Death.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 08, 2013, 02:52:40 AM
Quote from: wasteland on October 05, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
The bottle synth solo in Along For The Ride exceeds his older brother's (BTS) already remarkable level of awesomeness.

 :tup

Quote from: snapple on October 07, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
FII is a classic DT album.

 :tup

Quote from: Sycsa on October 07, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
Enigma Machine is in the top 3 on DT12.

Possibly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on October 08, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.

I just sat in my chair, with my jaw wide open for about 20 seconds. I think we just found the winner of this thread  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on October 08, 2013, 03:28:09 PM
Page 53 of this thread = memories of the old DT12 news thread </3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 08, 2013, 06:41:52 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 07, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.

Go home XBOBX, you're drunk.

Ah... if it was me saying it... only imagine what would have happened  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 09, 2013, 04:41:52 AM
Quote from: Lucien on October 08, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.
I just sat in my chair, with my jaw wide open for about 20 seconds. I think we just found the winner of this thread  :lol
I'd say the "I&W is the worst DT album" post still beats that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on October 10, 2013, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: ? on October 09, 2013, 04:41:52 AM
Quote from: Lucien on October 08, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.
I just sat in my chair, with my jaw wide open for about 20 seconds. I think we just found the winner of this thread  :lol
I'd say the "I&W is the worst DT album" post still beats that one.

Tie?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on October 10, 2013, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on October 10, 2013, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: ? on October 09, 2013, 04:41:52 AM
Quote from: Lucien on October 08, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.
I just sat in my chair, with my jaw wide open for about 20 seconds. I think we just found the winner of this thread  :lol
I'd say the "I&W is the worst DT album" post still beats that one.
Tie?

With these two I think we've crossed the line from controversial to just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: smegolas on October 10, 2013, 11:23:09 AM
James needs to be replaced with a more modern sounding and dynamic singer.  Like, yesterday.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on October 10, 2013, 02:29:43 PM
That sounds eerily familiar...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on October 10, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Most song titles have been really lame the past few albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FracturedMirror on October 10, 2013, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 07, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Systematic Chaos + Black Clouds is the BEST pair of consecutive albums in DT's catalogue, not the worst.

I wouldn't say the best in their whole catalog, but I would say they are best pair of consecutive albums post-2000.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 10, 2013, 03:16:55 PM
....That's just untrue. I mean, you can not like it, but that's just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on October 10, 2013, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension. 

That's harsh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on October 10, 2013, 05:04:18 PM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension.

Talk to Kevin Moore, not Dream Theater. Kevin Moore wrote that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on October 10, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on October 10, 2013, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension. 

That's harsh
A very wrong, harsh opinion at that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on October 10, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
Of all the songs one could peg DT with as far as pretension goes, SDV is very low on the list.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on October 10, 2013, 06:18:35 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on October 10, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
Of all the songs one could peg DT with as far as pretension goes, SDV is very low on the list.

Exactly right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 10, 2013, 06:44:00 PM
>calling songs pretentious
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on October 10, 2013, 06:46:50 PM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension.

That's not an opinion, it's an assumption.  A pretty poor assumption I might add.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 10, 2013, 08:07:05 PM
SC and Black Clouds are both amazing, perfect albums. You all have bad taste.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: volwrath on October 10, 2013, 08:14:25 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on October 10, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
Of all the songs one could peg DT with as far as pretension goes, SDV is very low on the list.

I concur... i never really thought of Floyd as pretentious either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 10, 2013, 10:07:05 PM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension. 

While I completely agree that Space Dye Vest is their most boring song, and quite pretentious, that's just bashing, dude.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 11, 2013, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension.

Aaaaand we have a winner.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 11, 2013, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: Implode on October 10, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Most song titles have been really lame the past few albums.
When I first read the ADTOE tracklist, it was quite underwhelming. Way too many spiritual overtones for my liking. Lost Not Forgotten also looks terrible without the comma. DT12 improved a lot, interesting titles, sans a few generic ones. Gotta love Enigma Machine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 11, 2013, 03:54:55 AM
Quote from: CrimsonE on October 10, 2013, 03:11:42 PM
Perhaps this has been stated by others on this thread, but I can't be bothered to check it out, so here goes:

Space Dye Vest is a boring piece of shit that the band wrote just so they could see how much they could sink into Pink-Floyd levels of pretension.
Outright bashing is not allowed by forum rules.  Plus, what you said is just factually incorrect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 11, 2013, 05:00:36 AM
Song titles don't really interest me.

No Bad song was made better by a good song title and vice versa.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on October 11, 2013, 08:30:37 PM
I've got one:
DTXII is the worst RR album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on October 11, 2013, 10:29:07 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 11, 2013, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: Implode on October 10, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Most song titles have been really lame the past few albums.
When I first read the ADTOE tracklist, it was quite underwhelming. Way too many spiritual overtones for my liking. Lost Not Forgotten also looks terrible without the comma. DT12 improved a lot, interesting titles, sans a few generic ones. Gotta love Enigma Machine.

Enigma Machine is an excellent title. So many others are just 3 words, or most likely a prepositional phrase. Beneath the Surface, Behind the Veil, Lost Not Forgotten, Along for the Ride, Through the Looking Glass, etc

Some of them aren't bad, but DT12 especially, many the titles sound way too similar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 12, 2013, 07:43:51 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on October 10, 2013, 06:14:17 PM
Of all the songs one could peg DT with as far as pretension goes, SDV is very low on the list.

Angsty, though, is a word I'd definitely describe it as. But that doesn't keep the piano melodies on it from being awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Awaken on October 12, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 10, 2013, 08:07:05 PM
SC and Black Clouds are both amazing, perfect albums. You all have bad taste.

+

Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.

=

??

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 12, 2013, 09:11:53 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.
Your loss. Hell's Kitchen and The Count of Tuscany are both amazing. I hope you don't listen to Frank Zappa, considering his song titles are pretty "non-conventional".

Also, the first thing you, said, LOL. It's funny to know that what you consider as the most important thing of a piece of music is not related at all with the music itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on October 12, 2013, 09:24:37 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.

I dislike titles that I think are dumb as much as the next guy, but you're missing out, friend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 12, 2013, 09:27:55 AM
I am assuming and hoping that XBOXBX's comment was sarcastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 12, 2013, 09:38:12 AM
Quote from: Grizz on October 11, 2013, 08:30:37 PM
I've got one:
DTXII is the worst RR album.

Hard to decide. Maybe I enjoy it a tiny bit more than BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 12, 2013, 02:40:55 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.

Also those are all great titles.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on October 12, 2013, 04:57:27 PM
Quote from: Awaken on October 12, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 10, 2013, 08:07:05 PM
SC and Black Clouds are both amazing, perfect albums. You all have bad taste.

+

Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.

=

??



I'd like this to be explained...

Quote from: Grizz on October 11, 2013, 08:30:37 PM
I've got one:
DTXII is the worst RR album.

And I agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on October 12, 2013, 07:14:54 PM
Quote from: Ruba on October 12, 2013, 09:38:12 AM
Quote from: Grizz on October 11, 2013, 08:30:37 PM
I've got one:
DTXII is the worst RR album.

Hard to decide. Maybe I enjoy it a tiny bit more than BC&SL.
TBF it's a toss up between that and ADTOE for the best.
Nostalgia plays a huge factor there (yes, I'm aware that it's only been four years, but I was in fifth grade when BC&SL came out, now a high school sophomore).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on October 13, 2013, 12:34:30 AM
The :soon: albums:

DT12
ADTOE

SC






BC&SL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 13, 2013, 12:37:32 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on October 13, 2013, 12:34:30 AM
The :soon: albums:

DT12
ADTOE

SC






BC&SL

Yep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 13, 2013, 12:38:21 AM
Quote from: Grizz on October 12, 2013, 07:14:54 PM
Quote from: Ruba on October 12, 2013, 09:38:12 AM
Quote from: Grizz on October 11, 2013, 08:30:37 PM
I've got one:
DTXII is the worst RR album.

Hard to decide. Maybe I enjoy it a tiny bit more than BC&SL.
TBF it's a toss up between that and ADTOE for the best.
Nostalgia plays a huge factor there (yes, I'm aware that it's only been four years, but I was in fifth grade when BC&SL came out, now a high school sophomore).

5th grade?!

I'm so old... :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on October 13, 2013, 12:56:09 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on October 12, 2013, 04:57:27 PM
Quote from: Awaken on October 12, 2013, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 10, 2013, 08:07:05 PM
SC and Black Clouds are both amazing, perfect albums. You all have bad taste.
+
Quote from: XB0BX on October 12, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
The song titles are arguably the most important aspect of the song for me. I've still never listened to Hell's Kitchen, The Count of Tuscany, and The Ones Who Help To Set the Sun. I just can't enjoy a song with a stupid title.
=
??
I'd like this to be explained...

Dude's just a troll looking to get a rise out of people. There's this post from another thread:

Quote from: XB0BX on October 05, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
How on earth can people think WDaDU is a better album than one containing ANtR and TCoT?
One post outright says Bob hasn't listened to the song, but then another implies Bob likes the song. And the post implying that he has listened to TCOT was posted first. Completely contradictory.

Then, there's these four posts, again contradictory, that were all posted on the same day a few weeks ago in three different threads. I've posted them here in chronological order, too.

Quote from: XB0BX on September 16, 2013, 06:46:42 PM
I'm shocked there are this many people disliking the album. It's rare I get chills on my first time through an album, but it happened to me multiple times. I'm genuinely surprised people that post on a DT fan forum can dislike this album. I'm even more surprised to see comments like "oh, more crappy modern DT, guess I'm done listening to this band." In my opinion, the past 2 albums are so consistent and so breathtaking, they can be compared against ANY DT album.

10/10 album.
Listened to album, likes it a lot. 10/10

Quote from: XB0BX on September 16, 2013, 07:31:05 PM
The past 4 albums (including DT12) is the best 4 album run in Dream Theater history.
Really likes the last few albums, including DT12.

Quote from: XB0BX on September 16, 2013, 07:33:30 PM
DT12 absolutely crushes Awake.
Okay, Bob must like DT12 and/or not like Awake that much. Definitely thinks DT12 is better than Awake, right? But then posts this in the DT12 thread:

Quote from: XB0BX on September 16, 2013, 09:17:35 PM
Okay guys, I'm halfway through my first listen of the album, and I can now say that it is the worst DT album ever recorded, by far.
Remember, I said I'd post these in chronological order. Three hours after the first post praising DT12, he's now he's only half way through the first listen, and it's the worst thing they've ever done. ??? Even if someone's opinion changed that quickly, why was he making those other posts about it being so great if he wasn't even half way through it yet?

I can't be bothered going back through more of his posts, all this is just in the first page of results. He's definitely posted more flamebait than just these posts, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 13, 2013, 01:10:50 AM
In other words:

Go home XBOBX, you're drunk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 13, 2013, 04:06:38 AM
Had enough of the RROD, going with PS4 this time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on October 13, 2013, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 13, 2013, 04:06:38 AM
Had enough of the RROD, going with PS4 this time.
RROD, still better than Raw Dog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 13, 2013, 04:30:45 PM
I'm so confused.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: j on October 13, 2013, 05:50:23 PM
I don't know how controversial this is, but Petrucci's best solo ever is Lines in the Sand (with that one live show--Bucharest or somewhere--being slightly superior to the studio version).  Despite having a ton of great solos, nothing else even comes close.

-J
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 13, 2013, 06:47:25 PM
Quote from: j on October 13, 2013, 05:50:23 PM
I don't know how controversial this is, but Petrucci's best solo ever is Lines in the Sand (with that one live show--Bucharest or somewhere--being slightly superior to the studio version).  Despite having a ton of great solos, nothing else even comes close.

-J

That is a phenomenal solo. If you watched the YouTube chat orchestrated by Bosk1 and Wey, Petrucci recalled that solo as either his favorite or one of his favorites to play.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2013, 08:53:09 PM
Quote from: j on October 13, 2013, 05:50:23 PM
I don't know how controversial this is, but Petrucci's best solo ever is Lines in the Sand (with that one live show--Bucharest or somewhere--being slightly superior to the studio version).  Despite having a ton of great solos, nothing else even comes close.

-J

I don't think it's controversial to consider that his best solo. It's definitely among his best, although I wouldn't say nothing else comes close. JP has a very consistently high standard for his solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 13, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
The solo in LITS recently won the "favorite DT moment" thing in the P/S side so it's not controversial to love it :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 14, 2013, 08:49:18 AM
Quote from: Bolsters on October 13, 2013, 12:56:09 AM
Remember, I said I'd post these in chronological order. Three hours after the first post praising DT12, he's now he's only half way through the first listen, and it's the worst thing they've ever done. ??? Even if someone's opinion changed that quickly, why was he making those other posts about it being so great if he wasn't even half way through it yet?

You got me. I was clearly just posting these things to ruin people's days. I've definitely never posted any sarcastic messages to prove a point and/or lighten the mood of a thread. I've been found out. I apologize profusely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 14, 2013, 08:52:54 AM
(https://www.a-suivre.org/usa/IMG/jpg/you-got-me.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CharlieDominietzsche on October 14, 2013, 10:13:26 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is underrated. Granted, it could have been better (I might have replaced You Not Me and Burning My Soul with Raise The Knife and Cover My Eyes respectively) but it's still a very solid album, and New Millennium, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of Tears are among Dream Theater's best material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on October 14, 2013, 11:43:25 AM
I think the username of the poster above me is outstandingly good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on October 14, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
Quote from: Elite on October 14, 2013, 11:43:25 AM
I think the username of the poster above me is outstandingly good.

"Prog is dead."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on October 14, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
Quote from: Podaar on October 14, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
Quote from: Elite on October 14, 2013, 11:43:25 AM
I think the username of the poster above me is outstandingly good.

"Prog is dead."

:clap:

Best post I've seen in a long time!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on October 14, 2013, 02:58:45 PM
o/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on October 14, 2013, 03:30:53 PM
Nice one Podaar. Sorry Rich, but that was so epic that I have to intercept that.

*\o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on October 14, 2013, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: CharlieDominietzsche on October 14, 2013, 10:13:26 AM
New Millennium, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of Tears are among Dream Theater's best material.

:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 14, 2013, 07:41:46 PM
Quote from: CharlieDominietzsche on October 14, 2013, 10:13:26 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is underrated. Granted, it could have been better (I might have replaced You Not Me and Burning My Soul with Raise The Knife and Cover My Eyes respectively) but it's still a very solid album, and New Millennium, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of Tears are among Dream Theater's best material.

That's not too controversial. FII isn't generally regarded too highly, but it's not hated that much, I don't think.
I personally rank it 4th. Take off YNM and TAMP (I don't want any of the off-cuts on there at all), and it's a legit contender against IaW for 3rd place for me. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 14, 2013, 07:43:21 PM
FII has Lines in the Sand & Trial of Tears, Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen amongst others.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 14, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
Take Away My Pain is one of the best songs on Falling Into Infinity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 15, 2013, 03:26:30 AM
Quote from: Elite on October 14, 2013, 01:40:19 PM
Quote from: Podaar on October 14, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
Quote from: Elite on October 14, 2013, 11:43:25 AM
I think the username of the poster above me is outstandingly good.
"Prog is dead."
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on October 15, 2013, 04:20:21 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 14, 2013, 07:43:21 PM
FII has Lines in the Sand & Trial of Tears, Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen amongst others.

and Peruvian Skies :metal
and Anna Lee :heart
and some great demos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on October 16, 2013, 08:33:53 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but I dump my random opinions here.

The very minor 2009/2010 variation of The Mirror with a heaver variation of the four bar phrase directly before the keyboard played in between the two drastically improves the cohesion of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: xfirehurricane on October 23, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
Hey, new here, but 20+ year fan.

SDOIT - In-cohesive, should have been four great 10 minute songs. Solitary Shell best song on album but gets to second chorus then dead. had potential to be so much more.

Derek's keyboard style was great.

Stopped listening to DT after SC. Everything was cringe worthy except Forsaken. ADTOE brought me back from the edge and got me excited about the band again. Top 4 album for me.

I like Space Dye Vest and the Mind Beside Itself Trilogy; the rest of Awake I can skip. Hate the cold reverb permeating the keys and vox throughout.

Although the snare needs more snap, I actually like the drums sounds and panning on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 23, 2013, 04:41:14 PM
Welcome to the forum.

Quote from: xfirehurricane on October 23, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
SDOIT - In-cohesive, should have been four great 10 minute songs. Solitary Shell best song on album but gets to second chorus then dead. had potential to be so much more.


Prepare to die.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on October 23, 2013, 05:03:19 PM
I'm inclined to agree. SDOIT the song is way too bloated. Also, Solitary Shell is my #5 DT song if SDOIT is split up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 23, 2013, 05:12:34 PM
Quote from: jsem on October 23, 2013, 05:03:19 PM
I'm inclined to agree. SDOIT the song is way too bloated. Also, Solitary Shell is my #5 DT song if SDOIT is split up.

I'm the opposite.  i think of the song as a book with chapters.  Sometimes you can't put the book down and sometimes I read a few chapters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 23, 2013, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.
Which song is that, TEI or EM? Anyway, I'd disagree on both counts. Jordan's solo in TEI with JP's wah-wah underneath it sounds great. Although it's rather over it than underneath it, which lessens the experience a bit. I could see why some people wouldn't like this part though, just like the oddly similar part of LNF. EM on the other hand is probably the most by-the-book, typical Jordan sound and solo, I can't hear anything there that would break the flow and pull one out. The whole song is a big highlight of DT12 for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: xfirehurricane on October 23, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 23, 2013, 04:41:14 PM
Welcome to the forum.

Prepare to die.

Preparing to be slaughtered mercilessly. To expand on the SDOIT comment; I just think it loses focus as a whole piece. Overture doesn't encompass everything succinctly like Overture 1928 does on SFAM. I still love it and listen to it, but could have just been a great set of songs with cool segues and occasionally recurring themes such as Home does to Metropolis ptI etc.

Thanks for the welcome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 1neeto on October 24, 2013, 12:42:56 AM
Quote from: xfirehurricane on October 23, 2013, 04:40:03 PM
Hey, new here, but 20+ year fan.

SDOIT - In-cohesive, should have been four great 10 minute songs. Solitary Shell best song on album but gets to second chorus then dead. had potential to be so much more.

Derek's keyboard style was great.

Stopped listening to DT after SC. Everything was cringe worthy except Forsaken. ADTOE brought me back from the edge and got me excited about the band again. Top 4 album for me.

I like Space Dye Vest and the Mind Beside Itself Trilogy; the rest of Awake I can skip. Hate the cold reverb permeating the keys and vox throughout.

Although the snare needs more snap, I actually like the drums sounds and panning on DT12.

What is this... I'm not even.  :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on October 24, 2013, 03:19:49 AM
Couple of controversial opinions about DT12;

1. False Awakening Suite and The Enigma Machine  are DT's worst instrumentals. They go all over the place and are kinda boring.
2. TEI isn't very good :<
3. The drumming on DT12 sounds like it doesn't have any feeling and sounds like a drum machine ._.
 Maybe they were thinking something like this;
"Hey, lets make the drumming on DT12 sound same as Petrucci's soloing in TOT.......... SOULLESS!!!"

But yeah, not completely bashing the album.  The Looking Glass is amazing!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on October 24, 2013, 03:28:53 AM
My initial impression of DT12 was that it'd be my #6. Now it has surpassed both ADTOE (previously #5) and Awake (previously #4), and it's so close to TOT (#3), it might even surpass that one eventually. I can't even express how much respect I have for DT for releasing an album as fantastic as DT12 this far into their career :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on October 24, 2013, 05:35:52 AM
Maybe because I'm not a drummer and can't pick up on drummer styles but if I was oblivious to the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming for the last two albums I would believe you. I'm sure Mangini is a great talent but I can't detect any difference in the drumming or the ways the drums are handled within the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on October 24, 2013, 06:52:33 AM
The only things I can point our are his crisp drum sounds(he always wanted those!) and his addictive use of double bass. That's what I felt was missing from the DT sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2013, 07:58:28 AM
The drumming on DT12 is better than on ADTOE, but I still prefer Portnoy. But that doesn't mean I'm not content with Mangini.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on October 24, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
Quote from: Ruba on October 24, 2013, 07:58:28 AM
The drumming on DT12 is better than on ADTOE, but I still prefer Portnoy. But that doesn't mean I'm not content with Mangini.

I agree 100%.

Mangini did a fine job behind the kit in DT12. I think he's drumming is the highlight of the album, BUT he is still not Portnoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 24, 2013, 11:48:17 AM
I listened to SC and BC&SL'S then ADTOE & DT 12 with the specific intent to 'compare' MP and MM. There is no comparison. MP's last two efforts are bland, recycled parts and fills with very little creativity to me. Sure it 'sounds' ok and fits the songs but to then listen to what MM has done the last two albums it makes you realize what a drummer can do when he keeps practicing, keeps trying to improve rather than rest on your laurels and just count on people buying your music because of 'who you are'

There's no denying MP's status as an elite drummer. He's remarkable....really. But his laziness and disinterest with DT is very apparent on his last two efforts with him whereas MM's excitement,  skill and dedication to his craft is just as apparent with his first two efforts with them.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 24, 2013, 12:10:28 PM
Huh. I always enjoy MP's playing more, even on the two albums you mentioned. Mangini is certainly amazing, but I just prefer MP's playing style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 24, 2013, 01:17:22 PM
I agree with those who say they prefer Portnoy's playing style. I am not at all knowledgeable about the drums so I could not tell you what it is that makes me prefer it, but for some reason, I like the vibe of his playing better.

I also miss MP's vocals and his (presumably) perspective on vocal melodies on ADTOE and DT12. I love it when a band has a rich vocal soundscape with more than just one voice in the mix. Mike has a really nice and really diverse singing voice and added texture to a lot of DT songs, whether he was doing a lead part or just backing James. I also miss hearing John's voice. I'm not sure if he's on the album versions of DT12 or ADTOE, but if he is, I can't hear him. Based on this, I would hazard the guess that Mike was the one who thought it would be a good idea to do all those multi-parted vocal melodies. I don't love James' melodies on BCSL, but the vocal melodies on that album were still better (IMO) than on the last two because of the significant presence of multiple parts including MP and JP (particularly in a song like AROP). In terms of vocal melodies, DT12 isn't a whole lot better than BCSL for James and really falls below it for me because there's no one else, it's just him.

I also miss certain elements of DT's songwriting that have not been present on the last two albums. I love ADTOE and DT12 to death, but I miss the little musical adventures and some of the less serious songs from the late MP era (examples of the latter: TCOT, Forsaken).

I wonder how hard this will get me slammed. It seems to me that there's a bit more of a taboo around here for preferring MP to MM than there is for preferring KM to JR, which is interesting given the parallels between those two replacements ("soul of the band" replaced by a far more technical player). I suppose it makes sense in that there are more people in other parts of the internet who are ignorant to the reasons for MP's departure and demand his return while trashing the new stuff, but not everyone who prefers MP is like that. I love Mike Mangini and I love a lot of things about the new album and a lot of things about Dramatic Turn, and there are ways in which these are the strongest albums we've seen in a while, but I do miss MP and I do prefer DT's style from when he was in the band. And I wish he had gotten his act together in 2010 and reconciled his problems with letting JMX and JLB having more of a voice in the band, and that they had continued with him. But, since that obviously didn't happen (and the fault for that falls on MP), I'm still quite happy that they found a musical and personal match in Mangini and that they continue to produce great music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 24, 2013, 01:19:43 PM
I agree with most of that. I mean, I'm definitely glad Mangini is in the band. He's a fantastic musician, and just an all around great guy, plus the band seems to be more energized with him. I wouldn't want Portnoy to return, that era is definitely over. I just prefer the music they made with MP.

Although I will say the circumstances between KevMo leaving and MP leaving are totally different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on October 24, 2013, 01:25:28 PM
Sums up my thoughts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on October 24, 2013, 01:35:20 PM
Very well said 425!.
I agree with most of that :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on October 24, 2013, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
Quote from: Onno on August 14, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on August 14, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
I think Solitary Shell is one of the best songs DT have ever written.
Solitary Shell is really, really great.

But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say 'the best'. So definitely controversial.

Well, I consider 6DOIT as being one song, and Solitary Shell is definitely one of the best parts of the song.

If I could only listen to 1 DT cd for the rest of my life it would be Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on October 24, 2013, 06:22:11 PM
But that's two DT CDs :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on October 24, 2013, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 24, 2013, 01:17:22 PM
I agree with those who say they prefer Portnoy's playing style. I am not at all knowledgeable about the drums so I could not tell you what it is that makes me prefer it, but for some reason, I like the vibe of his playing better.

I also miss MP's vocals and his (presumably) perspective on vocal melodies on ADTOE and DT12. I love it when a band has a rich vocal soundscape with more than just one voice in the mix. Mike has a really nice and really diverse singing voice and added texture to a lot of DT songs, whether he was doing a lead part or just backing James. I also miss hearing John's voice. I'm not sure if he's on the album versions of DT12 or ADTOE, but if he is, I can't hear him. Based on this, I would hazard the guess that Mike was the one who thought it would be a good idea to do all those multi-parted vocal melodies. I don't love James' melodies on BCSL, but the vocal melodies on that album were still better (IMO) than on the last two because of the significant presence of multiple parts including MP and JP (particularly in a song like AROP). In terms of vocal melodies, DT12 isn't a whole lot better than BCSL for James and really falls below it for me because there's no one else, it's just him.

I also miss certain elements of DT's songwriting that have not been present on the last two albums. I love ADTOE and DT12 to death, but I miss the little musical adventures and some of the less serious songs from the late MP era (examples of the latter: TCOT, Forsaken).

I wonder how hard this will get me slammed. It seems to me that there's a bit more of a taboo around here for preferring MP to MM than there is for preferring KM to JR, which is interesting given the parallels between those two replacements ("soul of the band" replaced by a far more technical player). I suppose it makes sense in that there are more people in other parts of the internet who are ignorant to the reasons for MP's departure and demand his return while trashing the new stuff, but not everyone who prefers MP is like that. I love Mike Mangini and I love a lot of things about the new album and a lot of things about Dramatic Turn, and there are ways in which these are the strongest albums we've seen in a while, but I do miss MP and I do prefer DT's style from when he was in the band. And I wish he had gotten his act together in 2010 and reconciled his problems with letting JMX and JLB having more of a voice in the band, and that they had continued with him. But, since that obviously didn't happen (and the fault for that falls on MP), I'm still quite happy that they found a musical and personal match in Mangini and that they continue to produce great music.

Great points of view, man.

I can definitely share a good bit of your sentiment.

To reiterate what you said, I miss MP's backing vocals so much too. It added another sonic element in the vocal harmony. He wasn't the greatest singer in the world of course, but on the albums he always sounded great...a perfect Yang to JLB's Yin.

And I agree that the background vocals of not only MP, but JP as well were MP's doing.

A perfect example is  "Home". The background harmonies from the guys (is it JP, MP, or both?) are just amazing. They are crucial to how amazing that song is.

As for drumming, I miss those dynamic mixes too. The small toms panning wide left and right. The splash cymbal off at the 3 o clock position in the panning spectrum. May have been a mixing thing, but I think it was also in his own mic placement preferences.

The thing that brings me peace with the whole issue is this: When MP left, I was crushed. I honestly thought that the band was going to go downhill, and not be able to find someone else to compare.

But when MM came in, and (as you mentioned) they released ADToE and now DT12, I learned to become so satisfied with how things are going.

To me, it's now about not replacing MP, but being someone who fits, is skilled as hell, and makes great music with the band.

I will always miss MP though. I don't care if he was a diva, to me he was great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 24, 2013, 08:06:56 PM
After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 24, 2013, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 24, 2013, 08:06:56 PM
After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.

For the record....I love MP's drumming. I think everything pre- Systematic Chaos is fantastic. To me his last two albums were 'mailed in'

I just appreciate the fresh energy MM has brought along with him....along with his prowess. I will always miss that MP era of DT....that was awesome music. I just feel like MP "left" the band a lot longer before his official announcement when it came to making music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 24, 2013, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 24, 2013, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 24, 2013, 08:06:56 PM
After recently re-listening to a lot of DT albums, the only DT album I can consider MP's drumming performance less than excellent is BCASL, and even then it's not bad at all, just more basic than his usual standard. But he has a lot of cool stuff on SC. The breakdown of CM alone is great for cymbal and tom work.

Out of the MM albums, ADTOE didn't impress me much, probably because he didn't write the parts entirely from scratch. It was an improvement over BCASL's drumming, but I didn't enjoy it as much as SC's drumming. DT12's drumming is a lot better, although I hear a lot of straight up MP beats and fills in there. There's also a lot of cool stuff he didn't get to do on ADTOE too though.

I don't have a problem with either drummer's work at all, so I'm not siding with one over the other here, I'm just saying I think that MP's drumming is better than people give him credit for here.

For the record....I love MP's drumming. I think everything pre- Systematic Chaos is fantastic. To me his last two albums were 'mailed in'

I just appreciate the fresh energy MM has brought along with him....along with his prowess. I will always miss that MP era of DT....that was awesome music. I just feel like MP "left" the band a lot longer before his official announcement when it came to making music.

I disagree. As I said, at the least, I don't agree that SC should be included there at all, as there's a lot of great drumming on that, and the whole album feels fun and lively, and I also don't feel like ADTOE was a particularly inspired drumming performance either. That whole album feels kind of like the band going through the motions to me, unlike DT12, which even though I'm also not a *huge* fan of, sounds a lot more energetic, and fresh to me, and a lot of what I felt was missing from ADTOE.

Just imo of course. I can understand the criticism of BCASL, but I just don't agree that SC should be lumped in with it, or that ADTOE was a huge improvement. For me DT12 was when MM was really able to pick up and utilize his potential, and the first time I felt the energy that he brought to the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on October 25, 2013, 02:06:20 AM
I have to agree with Mr. VanDam here.

Although DT12 wasn't very good imo, we finally hear a small taste of what MM can potentially bring into the sound of DT. He feels a lot more confident on this album than ADTOE, although overall imo ADTOE is miles better. But i think we have to wait for DT13 to hear MM truly unleashed, or maybe even DT14.

About Portnoy. I think i am one of the few people here, who loves every aspect of SC. MP's drumming on that album is really good. On BCSL however you can hear that he was getting tired, and needed a way out. But despite everything that the band has released with MM thus far, i still prefer DT with MP infinitely more.

And the bottom line FOR ME PERSONALLY is, MP will always be THE drummer of DT and MM will always be the replacement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on October 26, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
I think the Enemy Inside is one of the worst songs DT have written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 26, 2013, 04:35:32 PM
Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.

I don't consider Illumination Theory an epic but an album closer in the vein of ITNOG. The ambient/orchestral section kills the song and doesn't go anywhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on October 26, 2013, 07:36:50 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2013, 04:35:32 PM
Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.
:omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 26, 2013, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2013, 04:35:32 PM
I don't consider Illumination Theory an epic.

Neither i, just because it's long don't make it epic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on October 26, 2013, 07:58:52 PM
Quote from: Bolsters on October 26, 2013, 07:36:50 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2013, 04:35:32 PM
Take The Time is the worst song on Images and Words and I skip it everytime.

The Shattered Fortress is the best part of the Twelve-step Suite.
:omg:
Yeah, this is one of the worst opinions I've ever heard and you should be ashamed of yourself, Take the Time is amazing. I used to hate it too, though, so maybe it'll grow on you.

New opinion: Take Away My Pain is the worst song on FII by a good margin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 26, 2013, 09:27:33 PM
I don't disagree with that, but the demo version is beautiful. I believe MP said of the album arrangement that it took some of the most heartfelt lyrics and vocals ever and placed them in a ride at Disneyland (I don't have my FII Demos booklet with me so I don't have the exact quote).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 26, 2013, 09:30:09 PM
The song itself isn't bad, but that album arrangement is horrid, and it's one of only two songs on FII I skip. It's a shame too, because that solo is absolutely killer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on October 26, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
TAMP isn't the worst musically on its own merits, but because we have the demo to compare it to. That's why it's so awful. I loooove the demo, is part of it. You Or Me ---> You Not Me isn't as bad a change because, honestly, You Or Me wasn't ever that good to begin with. TAMP was, and now it's not, and the version that sucks is the one more people are familiar with. I might even go as far as to call the album version the worst DT song merely for what it represents. Might. There'd be competition though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on October 26, 2013, 09:48:30 PM
I love both versions of TAMP, but gun to the head I'd probably go with the demo as well. The album version is great as well, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on October 27, 2013, 01:45:16 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on October 26, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
I think the Enemy Inside is one of the worst songs DT have written.

What? :o



Quote from: Scorpion on October 26, 2013, 09:48:30 PM
I love both versions of TAMP, but gun to the head I'd probably go with the demo as well. The album version is great as well, though.

All of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on October 27, 2013, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on October 26, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
I think the Enemy Inside is one of the worst songs DT have written.
I wouldn't put it that way, but I find the song pretty mediocre and unimaginative like, say, Panic Attack - metal DT by numbers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on October 27, 2013, 03:12:59 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2013, 04:35:32 PM

I don't consider Illumination Theory an epic but an album closer in the vein of ITNOG. The ambient/orchestral section kills the song and doesn't go anywhere.

Agreed!

I always skip the ambient/orchestral section when i listen to this song, other than that the song is not bad!
Quote from: Outcrier on October 26, 2013, 07:44:41 PM

Neither i, just because it's long don't make it epic.

Well said!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Xersiz on October 27, 2013, 03:45:43 AM

Although I really love the first albums,I think the last 3 albums are better than most of the discography(excluding I&W,Scenes and TOT)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 06, 2013, 02:20:13 PM
I think Metropolis may be my least favorite song on I&W nowadays :dangerwillrobinson:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on November 06, 2013, 04:19:49 PM
Quote from: ? on November 06, 2013, 02:20:13 PM
I think Metropolis may be my least favorite song on I&W nowadays :dangerwillrobinson:
It's been my least favorite for years. Glad somebody finally agrees with me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on November 06, 2013, 05:05:33 PM
Same here. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on November 06, 2013, 05:27:23 PM
Thanks to Shadow Ninja's top 50 list, I think Another Day is my favourite from I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on November 06, 2013, 05:28:36 PM
bwahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on November 06, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
All your fault I've listened to that song 20 times today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on November 07, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
Ok. Given what's been said recently I've come to realise that the following is possibly a controversial opinion:

I prefer the album version of take away my pain to the demo. I like the guitar riff under the verse. I like the little bridges up to the chorus. I love the bass in the chorus. Feels nice and heavy yet open alongside the drums. I like the guitar solo. I like the bridge before it. I like (I think it was Kevin Shirleys) idea to have JP improvise all the way through the song and how they just fade that in now and again.

I detest the live version with the saxaphone. To me that is far FAR cheesier than the version that ended up on the album.

I just think the album incarnation is more focused and softer and reflects the lyrical contect better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 11:50:39 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 07, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
Ok. Given what's been said recently I've come to realise that the following is possibly a controversial opinion:

I prefer the album version of take away my pain to the demo. I like the guitar riff under the verse. I like the little bridges up to the chorus. I love the bass in the chorus. Feels nice and heavy yet open alongside the drums. I like the guitar solo. I like the bridge before it. I like (I think it was Kevin Shirleys) idea to have JP improvise all the way through the song and how they just fade that in now and again.

I detest the live version with the saxaphone. To me that is far FAR cheesier than the version that ended up on the album.

I just think the album incarnation is more focused and softer and reflects the lyrical contect better.

I don't disagree. Personally, the one thing I really wish they kept from the Demo version was the last verse. I thought it was beautiful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 07, 2013, 12:06:12 PM
"Least Favorite on I&W" still implies "pretty damn good" so do whatever you want with ranking that one :V
That aside, did anyone know that Burning My Soul isn't actually that terrible? Not that it's good, but it's not the worst abomination upon DT-kind that I remembered it being. YNM also isn't that terrible either.
TAMP *is* that terrible though, at least the album version  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 07:39:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 07, 2013, 12:06:12 PM
"Least Favorite on I&W" still implies "pretty damn good" so do whatever you want with ranking that one :V
That aside, did anyone know that Burning My Soul isn't actually that terrible? Not that it's good, but it's not the worst abomination upon DT-kind that I remembered it being. YNM also isn't that terrible either.
TAMP *is* that terrible though, at least the album version  :D

I agree on all. I actually enjoy BMS as a bonehead metal breather on the album. It's like a slice of reheated, bad pizza. It's cheesy, and not great, but it's still pizza, so it's still tasty in its own way.
YNM and TAMP aren't bad, and I could listen to them if I had to (I don't know what scenario that would be :lol ), but they're not great either imo. They're very middle of the road in a way that doesn't even deserve hate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
I think Dream Theater's worst song is still at least 'good'. Not controversial, but elaborating on the posts above me. So yeah, in the grand scheme of things, if you consider such and such song less awesome than others, 'less' awesome still makes it a certain degree of awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
I think Dream Theater's worst song is still at least 'good'. Not controversial, but elaborating on the posts above me. So yeah, in the grand scheme of things, if you consider such and such song less awesome than others, 'less' awesome still makes it a certain degree of awesome.

I don't agree with that, although I do think they only have a relatively very small number of songs I would call "bad". DT have a very high hit percentage of at least decent songs imo. But it always sounds a bit fanboy to me when people say something along the lines of bad for DT still being better than every other band, or anything to that effect.
YNM isn't "less awesome", it would still only be an average song if by any other band. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 07, 2013, 09:13:16 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
I think Dream Theater's worst song is still at least 'good'. Not controversial, but elaborating on the posts above me. So yeah, in the grand scheme of things, if you consider such and such song less awesome than others, 'less' awesome still makes it a certain degree of awesome.
Relistening through their discography recently in preparation for my top 50, they have exactly four songs that make me sick to my stomach and I absolutely despise. Nothing else is really bad, though they have a lot of meh stuff too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:43:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
But it always sounds a bit fanboy to me when people say something along the lines of bad for DT still being better than every other band, or anything to that effect.
Hey, I'll be the first to admitting being a big DT fanboy, but I don't think that's too strange for a forum dedicated to DT.
If I was given a choice to listen to my least favorite DT song or my absolute favorite song by most other bands, I'd pick the DT song. There's only a handful of bands out there, that might have a handful of songs that I'd choose over my least favorite of DT's catalogue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 07, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:43:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
But it always sounds a bit fanboy to me when people say something along the lines of bad for DT still being better than every other band, or anything to that effect.
Hey, I'll be the first to admitting being a big DT fanboy, but I don't think that's too strange for a forum dedicated to DT.
If I was given a choice to listen to my least favorite DT song or my absolute favorite song by most other bands, I'd pick the DT song. There's only a handful of bands out there, that might have a handful of songs that I'd choose over my least favorite of DT's catalogue.

Seriously?  Wow.  To each his own, but I can think of thousands of songs I'd rather listen to than Constant Motion or You Not Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 10:20:19 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 07, 2013, 09:51:05 PM
Seriously?  Wow.  To each his own, but I can think of thousands of songs I'd rather listen to than Constant Motion or You Not Me.

Well, it really depends on my mood, too. If I feel like listening to something generally heavy, I'm probably gonna choose Metallica or Nirvana (both bands who I don't care all that much for) over New Millennium, if I had to make that choice. But usually, if I feel like listening to something heavier, I may as well listen to DT's heavier songs like As I Am or TROAE or what have you.

Although usually, I'll be in the mood for a specific band or a specific sound. If I'm craving Megadeth, I'm not gonna listen to DT's songs that have Megadeth influences in them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 11:46:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2013, 09:43:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
But it always sounds a bit fanboy to me when people say something along the lines of bad for DT still being better than every other band, or anything to that effect.
Hey, I'll be the first to admitting being a big DT fanboy, but I don't think that's too strange for a forum dedicated to DT.
If I was given a choice to listen to my least favorite DT song or my absolute favorite song by most other bands, I'd pick the DT song. There's only a handful of bands out there, that might have a handful of songs that I'd choose over my least favorite of DT's catalogue.

As much as I love DT, their stinkers are just as stinky as bad songs from any other band. While there are only literally a handful of DT songs I truly *hate* (as opposed to mere disinterest), there's absolutely no way I'd choose any of them over ANY songs by other bands, let alone my favourites by other bands. Hell, I'll take St Anger over WDADU any day! :lol

Not that I want to criticize being a huge fan of the band we're on a forum for by any means, because that's great, but they're not totally infallible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fibreoptix on November 08, 2013, 12:40:38 AM
I can't be positive at this early juncture, but I think James' vocals on LALP might be better than on Score. They might even be his best since LIT/LATM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 08, 2013, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.


Are you referring to Enigma Machine?   If so,  it's probably my least favorite song on the CD. I think it's reallly hard trying to be Erotomania and it just isn't the same. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 08, 2013, 06:19:06 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 07, 2013, 08:44:44 AM
Ok. Given what's been said recently I've come to realise that the following is possibly a controversial opinion:

I prefer the album version of take away my pain to the demo. I like the guitar riff under the verse. I like the little bridges up to the chorus. I love the bass in the chorus. Feels nice and heavy yet open alongside the drums. I like the guitar solo. I like the bridge before it. I like (I think it was Kevin Shirleys) idea to have JP improvise all the way through the song and how they just fade that in now and again.

I detest the live version with the saxaphone. To me that is far FAR cheesier than the version that ended up on the album.

I just think the album incarnation is more focused and softer and reflects the lyrical contect better.

You are sooooooo right.  I'd take the album version any day over the Kenny G version. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 08, 2013, 06:31:08 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 08, 2013, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.


Are you referring to Enigma Machine?   If so,  it's probably my least favorite song on the CD. I think it's reallly hard trying to be Erotomania and it just isn't the same.
It's in the top 3 for me, along with BTV and IT. Love the drumming and Jordan's organ playing as well as all the solos and melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on November 08, 2013, 07:02:48 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 08, 2013, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.


Are you referring to Enigma Machine?   If so,  it's probably my least favorite song on the CD. I think it's reallly hard trying to be Erotomania and it just isn't the same.

Last weekend I was driving around listening to DT12 and Really tried to listen Enigma Machine.. But yeah,  I can't find anything positive to say about it. 
A Month ago I thought that it was their worst instrumental  but now i'm starting to think that it's propably their worst song. :D haha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 08, 2013, 07:05:23 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.
Yeah, by the time the trade-off section starts I'm forced to press skip.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 08, 2013, 10:02:24 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 08, 2013, 06:07:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 18, 2013, 12:04:23 PM
Listened to DT12 today, and TEM ended up on the "skip list". Once JR's solo kicked in I got pulled out of my mental work zone and thought "wow, this is dreadful". Clicked skip.


Are you referring to Enigma Machine?   If so,  it's probably my least favorite song on the CD. I think it's reallly hard trying to be Erotomania and it just isn't the same.

You're right. Enigma Machine is far superior to Erotomania. Erotomania has some cool moments, but it has a lot of annoying keyboard sounds and overall isn't that interesting. Controversial opinions, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
TEM is the best song on DT12, I still stand by that statement.
On the other hand, the best of DT12 is not exactly great, since it's their worst album.

also don't be hating on erotomania  :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 08, 2013, 12:08:51 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 08, 2013, 12:03:34 PM
TEM is the best song on DT12, I still stand by that statement.
On the other hand, the best of DT12 is not exactly great, since it's their worst album.

also don't be hating on erotomania  :tdwn

Well, don't be hating on DT12, then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 08, 2013, 01:20:03 PM
The Enigma Machine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 08, 2013, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
But it always sounds a bit fanboy to me when people say something along the lines of bad for DT still being better than every other band, or anything to that effect.

A bit no, a total fanboy :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 08, 2013, 01:30:59 PM
ToT is the last really good album (as a whole) they released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 08, 2013, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 08, 2013, 01:28:36 PM
total fanboy :biggrin:

And proud of it.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 08, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 08, 2013, 01:20:03 PM
The Enigma Machine.

Thank you.  I was going to point that out myself but waited until someone else caught on. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 08, 2013, 03:24:50 PM
Take Away My Pain is in the top half of FII and Hollow Years (studio version) is in the bottom half.

After listening to it more and more DT12 has been getting more and more boring. Is it just me? I don't have the desire to listen to any of the songs except for Surrender to Reason and II. Live, Die, Kill anymore.  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on November 08, 2013, 03:29:13 PM
Another Won is a top 20 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 08, 2013, 05:00:43 PM
The Killing Hand is a top 10 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 08, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
Howard Stern's controversial opinion: "Dream Theater blows"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 08, 2013, 06:13:54 PM
ACOS, 8V and SDOIT are all top 10 DT songs (though this isn't controversial i think)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 08, 2013, 06:30:40 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on November 08, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
Howard Stern's controversial opinion: "Dream Theater blows"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k-sfWtve9E

:facepalm:

Now I want to listen to Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 08, 2013, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on November 08, 2013, 03:24:50 PM
After listening to it more and more DT12 has been getting more and more boring. Is it just me? I don't have the desire to listen to any of the songs except for Surrender to Reason and II. Live, Die, Kill anymore.  :-\

For me, DT12 has been a grower. I like it more each time I listen to it.

My semi-controversial statement (to meet the requirements of the thread, of course) will be that Illumination Theory hasn't clicked yet for me. However, it took The Count of Tuscany several months before I loved it, so I think it still has plenty of time.


Oh, another possibly controversial thing: I don't really know what it is since I know nothing about singing or recording or production, but I really don't like the way JLB's vocals sound on a lot of DT12. Sometimes it sounds somewhat like he's drowning in effects, sometimes it sounds like there's about four of him singing at once, and sometimes I just don't know what it is, I just don't like the sound. I think the best description is this:

The Bridges In the Sky chorus was awesome. I loved the vocal style he used on that ("May healing waters bury all my pain") when I first heard it, and I still do love the way that part sounds. But it feels to me like about a third of the lines on DT12 sound like the Bridges In the Sky chorus, and that seems excessive to me and takes away the impact of the use of that style. I don't know exactly how that sound is achieved, whether it's something where JLB chooses to sing like that or if it's an effect or if it's a sound achieved by the use of doubling, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Perhaps the most noticeable part on DT12 where something close to that sound is used in a way that I don't think makes sense is "Give more than they take" in the first verse of Surrender to Reason, which is an acoustic part and I don't believe calls at all for the BitS voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 09, 2013, 04:59:09 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 08, 2013, 01:30:59 PM
ToT is the last really good album (as a whole) they released.

I'd say Falling Into Infinity. But they have still released a huge bunch of great songs, the albums just tend to have at least one clunker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 09, 2013, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 09, 2013, 04:59:09 AM
I'd say Falling Into Infinity.

That's how you do the controversial thing  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 09, 2013, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 09, 2013, 04:59:09 AM
But they have still released a huge bunch of great songs, the albums just tend to have at least one clunker.

I don't care much for this if there are songs that make up for it.

Example: In the Land Of Grey And Pink by Caravan... I detest Golf Girl and Love To Love You but i still think it's a masterpiece because the 3 other songs make up for it (especially Nine Feet Underground).

My point then is that you don't have to love all songs in an album to think it is great imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2013, 02:47:40 PM
Awake isn't without clunkers too, so it's not that big of a deal. They're still great songs in the great scheme of things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 09, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2013, 02:47:40 PM
Awake isn't without clunkers too, so it's not that big of a deal. They're still great songs in the great scheme of things.
Curious, which songs do you consider clunkers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on November 09, 2013, 04:29:06 PM
Speaking of Awake and "clunkers," Awake is one of the only albums that doesn't have any clunkers for me. For me, everything post-Awake had at least one song I wasn't into (besides SDOIT).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 09, 2013, 04:30:59 PM
Personally, i don't care much for Silent Man, LSOAD and SDV but don't think they're bad neither, just don't enjoy them like the other songs in the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 09, 2013, 04:48:48 PM
If Lie isn't a clunker I don't know what is. That song is in top 5 worst imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenfoul on November 09, 2013, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on November 09, 2013, 04:48:48 PM
If Lie isn't a clunker I don't know what is. That song is in top 5 worst imo.
What makes it sound so bad to you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 09, 2013, 04:57:39 PM
It's not that it sounds bad, it's just that it is boring and not catchy in any way for a straight-out metal song. The intro riff doesn't do much for me and the keyboard noises during the verses annoy me. The chorus is a bit of a fail for me too. It's like The Mirror but worse in every way. The Mirror is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 09, 2013, 05:25:30 PM
Lie isn't the best on Awake or anything but it's not a bad song. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 09, 2013, 05:32:34 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 09, 2013, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 09, 2013, 04:59:09 AM
But they have still released a huge bunch of great songs, the albums just tend to have at least one clunker.

My point then is that you don't have to love all songs in an album to think it is great imo.

Of course not. I do find SDOIT great and SC is kind of on the borderline on that matter. A one weaker song is okay, but I value consistency and I might actually prefer an album with 10 very good songs to one with 5 great, 4 very good and one bad song.

Quote from: Parama on November 09, 2013, 05:25:30 PM
Lie isn't the best on Awake or anything but it's not a bad song. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 09, 2013, 08:59:50 PM
Awake has a solid half hour of clunkers imo. There is no other DT album with a continuous stretch of music I dislike as much as the run of Lie - SDV, and that even includes WDADU (which manages to space out the better tracks pretty evenly).
It is the number one (but not only) reason I rank that album near the bottom of their discography. If the album ended with The Mirror, I'd actually rank it much higher, although that would be a mighty short album for DT. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 09, 2013, 09:14:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 09, 2013, 08:59:50 PM
Awake has a solid half hour of clunkers imo. There is no other DT album with a continuous stretch of music I dislike as much as the run of Lie - SDV, and that even includes WDADU (which manages to space out the better tracks pretty evenly).
It is the number one (but not only) reason I rank that album near the bottom of their discography. If the album ended with The Mirror, I'd actually rank it much higher, although that would be a mighty short album for DT. :lol

It would be short, but not too much shorter than WDADU was. The Mirror would NOT work as a closing song though. As an opening song, it'd be pretty kickass, but 6:00 already works better in that regard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 09, 2013, 09:18:58 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on November 09, 2013, 09:14:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 09, 2013, 08:59:50 PM
Awake has a solid half hour of clunkers imo. There is no other DT album with a continuous stretch of music I dislike as much as the run of Lie - SDV, and that even includes WDADU (which manages to space out the better tracks pretty evenly).
It is the number one (but not only) reason I rank that album near the bottom of their discography. If the album ended with The Mirror, I'd actually rank it much higher, although that would be a mighty short album for DT. :lol

It would be short, but not too much shorter than WDADU was. The Mirror would NOT work as a closing song though. As an opening song, it'd be pretty kickass, but 6:00 already works better in that regard.

44 minutes would be on the short side for a prog/metal album from 1994, although it wasn't really a serious hypothetical!
I agree The Mirror wouldn't make a good closer though. I think the sequencing of the album works great as it is, with the longer prog metal track, followed by the low key finale. The problem is just that I don't like the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2013, 10:11:42 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 09, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
Curious, which songs do you consider clunkers.

Well, personally, the only song that I usually don't bother listening to at all, outside of listening to the whole album from the beginning to end, is Erotomania. I think it's DT's least good instrumental.
Space Dye-Vest has some nice moments, but for the most part, it's ruined by those annoying samples.
Again, this is all opinion, Blob thinks that half the album sucks, so I think my opinion is fairly optimistic. But personally, I'd say SFAM, TOT, SC and DT12 are more consistent than Awake, as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 09, 2013, 10:47:29 PM
Well we can't be friends Blob if you think Scarred sucks  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 09, 2013, 11:56:27 PM
I&W and Awake are the only perfect DT albums IMO. ADTOE doesn't have any clunkers, but I don't find it as amazing as those two, and all the other albums include at least one weaker song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on November 09, 2013, 11:59:06 PM
I consider Train of Thought a perfect album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on November 09, 2013, 11:59:06 PM
I consider Train of Thought a perfect album.

Aside from the overabundance of pointless samples in Honor Thy Father, I'd say it's a pretty damn consistently awesome album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 10, 2013, 12:33:59 AM
ToT is a bit inconsistent but it's for the most part a lot of great music.
8vm's a bit more consistent but IWBY still exists so not quite.
ADToE has BMUBMD on it so that's also out.
SFAM has Through Her Eyes so nope.
6DOIT has the title track being an absolute mess so, nah.
I don't even need to say why the rest aren't in the running. I&W and Awake are the only two yep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:36:34 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 12:33:59 AM
ToT is a bit inconsistent but it's for the most part a lot of great music.
8vm's a bit more consistent but IWBY still exists so not quite.
ADToE has BMUBMD on it so that's also out.
SFAM has Through Her Eyes so nope.
6DOIT has the title track being an absolute mess so, nah.
I don't even need to say why the rest aren't in the running. I&W and Awake are the only two yep.

Through Her Eyes is a better ballad than Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or The Silent Man, so...  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 12:38:51 AM
SFAM and SDOIT are both far more consistent than Awake. Awake has the half hour of hatred dragging it down. SFAM and SDOIT don't have anything I don't like on them. IaW would be near perfect except for LTL dragging it down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 10, 2013, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:36:34 AM
Through Her Eyes is a better ballad than Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or The Silent Man, so...  ;)
I love both songs :(

I used to think Scenes is perfect, but I've started to like BTL, TSCO and TDOE less and less since then. Six Degrees suffers because of the messy title-"track", which is a shame because the first disc includes some awesome songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
Quote from: ? on November 10, 2013, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:36:34 AM
Through Her Eyes is a better ballad than Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or The Silent Man, so...  ;)
I love both songs :(

I used to think Scenes is perfect, but I've started to like BTL, TSCO and TDOE less and less since then. Six Degrees suffers because of the messy title-"track", which is a shame because the first disc includes some awesome songs.

Why is track quoted? It's 8 tracks, 1 song.

And I don't know how an album can suffer from having their best song on it. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 10, 2013, 01:00:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 12:49:04 AM
Quote from: ? on November 10, 2013, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:36:34 AM
Through Her Eyes is a better ballad than Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or The Silent Man, so...  ;)
I love both songs :(

I used to think Scenes is perfect, but I've started to like BTL, TSCO and TDOE less and less since then. Six Degrees suffers because of the messy title-"track", which is a shame because the first disc includes some awesome songs.

Why is track quoted? It's 8 tracks, 1 song.

And I don't know how an album can suffer from having their best song on it. :dunno:

Maybe he thinks it's their best song, but disc 1 one has songs better than their best song. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 10, 2013, 01:02:09 AM
Lifting Shadows is gorgeous, The Silent Man is very nice too though rather overshadowed by the rest of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:03:08 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:02:09 AM
Lifting Shadows is gorgeous, The Silent Man is very nice too though rather overshadowed by the rest of the album.

Yep, they're both great. Just not as great as Through Her Eyes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 10, 2013, 01:15:17 AM
Through Her Eyes is an embarrassing stain on an otherwise amazing album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 01:20:45 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:15:17 AM
Through Her Eyes is an embarrassing stain on an otherwise amazing album.

I disliked Through Her Eyes for a long time, but it's not embarrassing in any way.

Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:02:09 AM
Lifting Shadows is gorgeous, The Silent Man is very nice too though rather overshadowed by the rest of the album.

The Silent Man is one of my favourites from Awake. I've always appreciated the shorter songs, and The Silent Man does it excellently. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:15:17 AM
Through Her Eyes is an embarrassing stain on an otherwise amazing album.

That's just uncalled for. What if I said the same thing about Erotomania?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:34:07 AM
I don't find Through Her Eyes embarassing.... maybe the orgasm at the end  :rollin
But i always skip it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 10, 2013, 01:34:47 AM
Let's see. Through Her Eyes has the unnecessary and out of place female singer, very boring instrumentation aside from JP's guitar lead, awful lyrics, is so gratingly cheesy that I'm embarrassed when it comes on and there's someone else in the room, and just kind of makes me sick to my stomach in general. The only good trait it has is JP's guitar lead and the fact that it's pretty short.

So why is Erotomania so bad then? I legitimately am curious because I think it's one of their better instrumentals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 10, 2013, 01:35:44 AM
Like, honestly. What if someone gets the impression that DT is this awful cheesy soft-pop band because the first song they heard was Through Her Eyes? That song could /ruin lives/.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on November 10, 2013, 01:36:35 AM
If they judge an entire band by the first song they hear, they probably weren't going to get into DT anyway. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:38:00 AM
Many people find the majority of their discography cheesy anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:38:53 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:34:07 AM
I don't find Through Her Eyes embarassing.... maybe the orgasm at the end  :rollin
But i always skip it.

My orgasm usually comes in half way through the following song.... If you know what I'm getting at.

Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:35:44 AM
Like, honestly. What if someone gets the impression that DT is this awful cheesy soft-pop band because the first song they heard was The Silent Man? That song could /ruin lives/.

That works too. So would Another Day, Lifting Shadows, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain for that matter. All great songs. If people don't like DT's softer side, they can go cuddle with Howard Stern.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 01:43:07 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:34:47 AM
Let's see. Through Her Eyes has the unnecessary and out of place female singer, very boring instrumentation aside from JP's guitar lead, awful lyrics, is so gratingly cheesy that I'm embarrassed when it comes on and there's someone else in the room, and just kind of makes me sick to my stomach in general. The only good trait it has is JP's guitar lead and the fact that it's pretty short.

So why is Erotomania so bad then? I legitimately am curious because I think it's one of their better instrumentals.

I like the female vocals on the album, along with the choir.  I love the variety of guest musicians they used to have.
And I don't find the instrumentation boring either. It's nice and simple and fitting for the song, and lets JLB's emotional vocals shine.
And what does it matter what other people think of what you're listening to?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:46:10 AM
There is no female singer in Though Her Eyes, i catch that Blob, nice ninja editing skillz  :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 01:46:50 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:46:10 AM
There is no female singer in Though Her Eyes, i catch that Blob, nice ninja editing skillz  :lol :lol :lol

I forgot about the intro! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:48:35 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:34:47 AM
So why is Erotomania so bad then? I legitimately am curious because I think it's one of their better instrumentals.

Most of it is just uninteresting. The riffs are fairly bland, it only has a couple of catchy melodies and one of them is from The Silent Man, and by DT's standards, nothing technically impressive. But by far the worst part of it is that keyboard sound they used at the very beginning. I mean, maybe it's the sound itself, or maybe it's just the way it was mixed, but it's absolutely grating on the ears, and makes me skip the song pretty much every time. They just have a ton of other instrumentals that are so much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:54:02 AM
What i find seeing some IAW reviews:

"Learning To Love" is especially good."

"I hate Dream Theater. I like Images And Words."

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:55:16 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 10, 2013, 01:54:02 AM
What i find seeing some IAW reviews:

"Learning To Love" is especially good."

Maybe it's a general statement? Like, I could say, "Dream Theater's self-titled album is fantastic. Also guys, learning to love is especially good. So go out there, learn to love and maybe then you can share this album with your loved one."  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 02:58:27 AM
I think we take music too seriously.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 10, 2013, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 02:58:27 AM
I think we take music too seriously.

(https://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/GasparXR/progfans_zps1069cf49.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 10, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2013, 10:11:42 PM
Space Dye-Vest has some nice moments, but for the most part, it's ruined by those annoying samples.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on November 09, 2013, 11:59:06 PM
I consider Train of Thought a perfect album.

Aside from the overabundance of pointless samples in Honor Thy Father, I'd say it's a pretty damn consistently awesome album.

I think DT should use more samples, actually. Maybe it derives from my love to industrial music.

Quote from: ? on November 10, 2013, 12:46:03 AM
Six Degrees suffers because of the messy title-"track", which is a shame because the first disc includes only awesome songs.

FTFM, and I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 10, 2013, 08:03:05 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 10, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
I think DT should use more samples, actually. Maybe it derives from my love for Kevin Moore's music.
FTFM and I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 10, 2013, 08:14:31 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on November 09, 2013, 11:59:06 PM
I consider Train of Thought a perfect album.

The end of This Dying Soul, featuring the most pointless wankery in the band's recording history, strongly disagrees with you.

Quote from: Parama on November 10, 2013, 01:35:44 AM
Like, honestly. What if someone gets the impression that DT is this awful cheesy soft-pop band because the first song they heard was Through Her Eyes? That song could /ruin lives/.

Yeah, it's better that someone hear Raw Dog or You Not Me first, rather than a gorgeous song like Through Her Eyes.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 10, 2013, 08:21:41 AM
Honor Thy Father is probably my least favorite DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 10, 2013, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 10, 2013, 08:14:31 AM

Yeah, it's better that someone hear Raw Dog or You Not Me first, rather than a gorgeous song like Through Her Eyes.  :facepalm:

Wasn't there a guy who said he got into DT through YNM?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on November 10, 2013, 08:28:50 AM
I got into DT through Prophets of War.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kilgore Trout on November 10, 2013, 09:24:55 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 10, 2013, 08:14:31 AM
The end of This Dying Soul, featuring the most pointless awesome wankery in the band's recording history, strongly disagrees with you.
Corrected.
There is no such thing as pointless wankery. There is wankery and not-wankery.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 09:57:38 AM
Yeah that wankery, and most wankery is awesome. Train of Thought is almost perfect, but As I Am's boring chorus brings it down.

Dream Theater's first 3 albums are perfect, as in there are no bad songs. Not taking into account the production values and Charlie. Falling Into Infinity has a few OK songs, but nothing cringeworthy. Scenes is perfect. Misunderstood certainly isn't my favorite track, but it's not bad. Same with Never Enough. Prophets of War is DT's worst song. Is it cringeworthy, nah, but it's really stupid. The Shattered Fortress and The Count and maybe wither are the only good songs on BCSL. ANTR has its moments but is too flawed. There is nothing wrong with ADTOE, But the only songs I ever go back to are BITS and BAI. DT12 is perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 10, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
I think DT should use more samples, actually. Maybe it derives from my love to industrial music.

Maybe if they used them in a smart and musical way, I'd agree. But playing a bunch of clips from movies and TV shows over music for over a minute is just a waste of time. Like, a couple seconds is okay, the way it's done in Take The Time, ACOS, etc. But when it comes to Honor Thy Father or Space-Dye Vest, it totally ruins them for me. Luckily, Honor Thy Father has a moment where I can perfectly edit that part out and still have a smooth and seamless transition. But doing that in Space-Dye Vest, I lost a lot of the cool piano melodies.

By the way, I listen to a decent amount of industrial music, and I've never heard samples being used like THAT. Usually, they're either like, one line repeating in rhythm with the song. Which, again, is a musical way of doing that, and works a lot better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 10, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
I think DT should use more samples, actually. Maybe it derives from my love to industrial music.

Maybe if they used them in a smart and musical way, I'd agree. But playing a bunch of clips from movies and TV shows over music for over a minute is just a waste of time. Like, a couple seconds is okay, the way it's done in Take The Time, ACOS, etc. But when it comes to Honor Thy Father or Space-Dye Vest, it totally ruins them for me. Luckily, Honor Thy Father has a moment where I can perfectly edit that part out and still have a smooth and seamless transition. But doing that in Space-Dye Vest, I lost a lot of the cool piano melodies.

By the way, I listen to a decent amount of industrial music, and I've never heard samples being used like THAT. Usually, they're either like, one line repeating in rhythm with the song. Which, again, is a musical way of doing that, and works a lot better.

The samples in HTF match the lyrical content, plus the music underneath is awesome.

Also, where do you cut it at? Not that I need to, but I just want to hear what it sounds like. So far I can't find a decent spot for a cut without some bleeding. haha get it? :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:06:36 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
The samples in HTF match the lyrical content, plus the music underneath is awesome.
Yes, I understand that it matches the lyrical content, but the way it's integrated, it's just rolling the clips, or worse, whole long, drawn out scenes from the movies. It just drags for so long, and I just don't want to hear actors from movies bitching and moaning for that long, when I'm listening to music. If I did, I'd watch the actual movie.

Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
Also, where do you cut it at? Not that I need to, but I just want to hear what it sounds like. So far I can't find a decent spot for a cut without some bleeding. haha get it? :|

I cut it at 5:16, basically after "Don't cross the crooked step" it has that badass riff playing, so then it plays out twice and right then, I basically cut it to the keyboard solo that comes on right after the samples are done. It actually works really well, and those unfamiliar with the song wouldn't even realize there's been an edit. So I'm happy I can at least do that with it. But like I said, with Space-Dye Vest, it loses a lot of awesome piano melodies when I do that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:06:36 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
The samples in HTF match the lyrical content, plus the music underneath is awesome.
Yes, I understand that it matches the lyrical content, but the way it's integrated, it's just rolling the clips, or worse, whole long, drawn out scenes from the movies. It just drags for so long, and I just don't want to hear actors from movies bitching and moaning for that long, when I'm listening to music. If I did, I'd watch the actual movie.

Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
Also, where do you cut it at? Not that I need to, but I just want to hear what it sounds like. So far I can't find a decent spot for a cut without some bleeding. haha get it? :|

I cut it at 5:16, basically after "Don't cross the crooked step" it has that badass riff playing, so then it plays out twice and right then, I basically cut it to the keyboard solo that comes on right after the samples are done. It actually works really well, and those unfamiliar with the song wouldn't even realize there's been an edit. So I'm happy I can at least do that with it. But like I said, with Space-Dye Vest, it loses a lot of awesome piano melodies when I do that.

Nah man, those samples make that section more intense.

I thought that's where the edit would be, but like I said, there's some sample bleeding. Cutting off the first stanza or whatever makes it doable, but it just sounds jarring to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
Nah man, those samples make that section more intense.
Absolutely not for me. It just kills the pacing of the song and bores me to tears. I mean, like I said, maybe for a small amount of time, it's okay, but as long as it actually goes on in the song is just agonizing. "The god damn regreeeet!"
It really sounds like MP really connected to the movies and felt like those scenes reflected his feelings, and by including as much of them as he did, he'd drive the point home, but personally, I had never actually seen those movies, and those samples mean absolutely nothing to me, and the actual lyrics of the song do a great job of expressing how he must have felt. In fact, it's the ONLY part of Train of Thought that I'd say is boring and hinders the album. If that part wasn't in it, if they just had the actual riff build up, or maybe a guitar solo in its place, or even if it was just shorter, I would honestly say that ToT was one of their most consistently awesome albums, easily on par with Images and Words. But that part, and being right in the middle of the album as it is, just kills the song for me.

Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
I thought that's where the edit would be, but like I said, there's some sample bleeding. Cutting off the first stanza or whatever makes it doable, but it just sounds jarring to me.

If there's any sample bleeding, then it's like, a tiny fraction of a second, and it's barely noticeable. Works for me, anyway. Here's a snippet of my edit:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpu5vdyjx8qbldo/Honor%20Thy%20Father%20Edit.mp3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 10, 2013, 01:41:49 PM
Controversial opinion: Mike Mangini often looks fat when drumming live.  I think it's the facial expressions forcing some bizarre pseudo-double-chin effect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
Nah man, those samples make that section more intense.
Absolutely not for me. It just kills the pacing of the song and bores me to tears. I mean, like I said, maybe for a small amount of time, it's okay, but as long as it actually goes on in the song is just agonizing. "The god damn regreeeet!"
It really sounds like MP really connected to the movies and felt like those scenes reflected his feelings, and by including as much of them as he did, he'd drive the point home, but personally, I had never actually seen those movies, and those samples mean absolutely nothing to me, and the actual lyrics of the song do a great job of expressing how he must have felt. In fact, it's the ONLY part of Train of Thought that I'd say is boring and hinders the album. If that part wasn't in it, if they just had the actual riff build up, or maybe a guitar solo in its place, or even if it was just shorter, I would honestly say that ToT was one of their most consistently awesome albums, easily on par with Images and Words. But that part, and being right in the middle of the album as it is, just kills the song for me.

Quote from: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
I thought that's where the edit would be, but like I said, there's some sample bleeding. Cutting off the first stanza or whatever makes it doable, but it just sounds jarring to me.

If there's any sample bleeding, then it's like, a tiny fraction of a second, and it's barely noticeable. Works for me, anyway. Here's a snippet of my edit:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tpu5vdyjx8qbldo/Honor%20Thy%20Father%20Edit.mp3

I'm picky (and a perfectionist) so that edit wouldn't work for me. :biggrin: I haven't seen any of the movies the samples are from either, but I don't think it really matters. To each their own.

I do agree about the samples in SDV. Some of them don't even make sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 10, 2013, 01:46:34 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 10, 2013, 01:41:49 PM
Controversial opinion: Mike Mangini often looks fat when drumming live.  I think it's the facial expressions forcing some bizarre pseudo-double-chin effect.

(https://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k34/Zook85/lolgini.png) (https://s84.photobucket.com/user/Zook85/media/lolgini.png.html)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 10, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
Sometimes I think Mike Romeo is back there drumming...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 10, 2013, 02:08:21 PM
MM and DS are like real life Ren and Stimpy characters with their facial expressions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 11, 2013, 02:19:07 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 10, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 10, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
I think DT should use more samples, actually. Maybe it derives from my love to industrial music.

Maybe if they used them in a smart and musical way, I'd agree. But playing a bunch of clips from movies and TV shows over music for over a minute is just a waste of time. Like, a couple seconds is okay, the way it's done in Take The Time, ACOS, etc. But when it comes to Honor Thy Father or Space-Dye Vest, it totally ruins them for me. Luckily, Honor Thy Father has a moment where I can perfectly edit that part out and still have a smooth and seamless transition. But doing that in Space-Dye Vest, I lost a lot of the cool piano melodies.

By the way, I listen to a decent amount of industrial music, and I've never heard samples being used like THAT. Usually, they're either like, one line repeating in rhythm with the song. Which, again, is a musical way of doing that, and works a lot better.

I see. But I don't have any problems with samples on Space-Dye Vest and HTF, and the sections they are featured in would be more boring without them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2013, 02:22:29 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 11, 2013, 02:19:07 AM
I see. But I don't have any problems with samples on Space-Dye Vest and HTF, and the sections they are featured in would be more boring without them.

Well, the section in Honor Thy Father maybe could use a guitar solo or something of the sort if the samples were taken out. But I don't agree with SDV at all. My whole problem with those samples is that they distract from the beautiful piano melodies underneath. Thank God there are instrumental cover versions on Youtube that don't feature the samples.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 04:30:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 12:38:51 AM
SFAM and SDOIT are both far more consistent than Awake. Awake has the half hour of hatred dragging it down. SFAM and SDOIT don't have anything I don't like on them. IaW would be near perfect except for LTL dragging it down.

WUT???!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2013, 04:38:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 04:30:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2013, 12:38:51 AM
SFAM and SDOIT are both far more consistent than Awake. Awake has the half hour of hatred dragging it down. SFAM and SDOIT don't have anything I don't like on them. IaW would be near perfect except for LTL dragging it down.

WUT???!!!

Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of it. I don't hate it, but it's easily my least favourite on IaW, and wouldn't make my top 50.
Most of the song is great, but I think the earlier verses and the chorus have really weak melodies and phrasing from trying to fit those lyrics to the music. Those earlier vocals just aren't anywhere near as melodic as the rest of the song or the album imo, and it hurts the song a lot as a whole for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:01:27 AM
Ok. I guess I can cope with that.

Although you're still wrong about Awake. Scarred is a fabawesome song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2013, 06:08:57 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:01:27 AM
Ok. I guess I can cope with that.

Although you're still wrong about Awake. Scarred is a fabawesome song.

If fabawesome is some code word for dreadful, then I'd agree.

Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.

:tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.
Like what? For me, the cheesiest moments were always related to their ballads and that wasn't on MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:22:25 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.
Like what? For me, the cheesiest moments were always related to their ballads and that wasn't on MP.
Hell no! I love a good ballad! Why is a ballad cheesy if its well written?

I thought stuff like..."DAY AFTER DAY, AND NIGHT AFTER NIGHT..." THAT is cheesy to me. I accept it...but its cheese.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:32:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2013, 06:08:57 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:01:27 AM
Ok. I guess I can cope with that.

Although you're still wrong about Awake. Scarred is a fabawesome song.

If fabawesome is some code word for dreadful, then I'd agree.


It tickles me how much you hate that song  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2013, 06:36:30 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:32:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2013, 06:08:57 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on November 11, 2013, 06:01:27 AM
Ok. I guess I can cope with that.

Although you're still wrong about Awake. Scarred is a fabawesome song.

If fabawesome is some code word for dreadful, then I'd agree.


It tickles me how much you hate that song  :biggrin:

I'm glad my pain amuses you! :getoffmylawn:


:lol

I'm listening through DT's studio material, and I just skip from UAGM straight to New Millennium. :dealwithit:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:37:19 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:22:25 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.
Like what? For me, the cheesiest moments were always related to their ballads and that wasn't on MP.
Hell no! I love a good ballad! Why is a ballad cheesy if its well written?

I thought stuff like..."DAY AFTER DAY, AND NIGHT AFTER NIGHT..." THAT is cheesy to me. I accept it...but its cheese.
It's not, who said that? What I said what when DT gets cheesy, it's usually in their ballads. Far from Heaven, Beneath the Surface, cut me a break. Their cheesiest ballads ever, right after MP left. I still like the majority of them though, after a certain period of adjustment.

Citing "Day after day" for the thousandth time is still a weak argument to put all the "bad, cheesy stuff" on MP. From his playing and the way he talks about music, I think he has a great taste.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:56:37 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:37:19 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:22:25 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 11, 2013, 06:06:41 AM
I see some are saying that DT has lost there soul without Mike Portnoy. No to be mean but the thing they lost the most of are the cheesiest moments from the last couple albums when he was here.
Like what? For me, the cheesiest moments were always related to their ballads and that wasn't on MP.
Hell no! I love a good ballad! Why is a ballad cheesy if its well written?

I thought stuff like..."DAY AFTER DAY, AND NIGHT AFTER NIGHT..." THAT is cheesy to me. I accept it...but its cheese.
Hell no! I love a good ballad! Why is a ballad cheesy if its well written?
It's not, who said that? What I said what when DT gets cheesy, it's usually in their ballads. Far from Heaven, Beneath the Surface, cut me a break. Their cheesiest ballads ever, right after MP left. I still like the majority of them though, after a certain period of adjustment.

Citing "Day after day" for the thousandth time is still a weak argument to put all the "bad, cheesy stuff" on MP. From his playing and the way he talks about music, I think he has a great taste.
[/quote]
Its not weak, its valid, no matter how many times its said. Should I point to Dark Eternal Night as well? I am not going to start ripping apart the band regarding everything Mike has done. I just feel some people think the last 2 albums are sorely lacking his presence. I simply don't agree. That is all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 11, 2013, 07:15:50 AM
 :lol we thoroughly fucked up the quotes in the last two posts. Anyway, I agree with your last thought, the band is better off without him, at the same time, I wouldn't be so quick to blame everything that was wrong with them up to BCSL on him. And TDEN is awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 11, 2013, 08:47:33 AM
MP's singing is certainly something I'm not going to miss. His backing vocals and trade off stuff like in The Glass Prison were fine, but then for SC and BCSL he started that "tough guy" crap, and that was cheesy. The Shattered Fortress is just as heavy as The Glass Prison. There was no need for the faux tough guy voice. It's not embarrassing or anything. I still love TSF, it's one of the better songs on BCSL, it's just those vocals are silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: m0hawk on November 11, 2013, 10:38:43 AM
I sorely miss Portnoy's anger. There was such a desperation that he brought to the music that I haven't found in the Mangini era. I'm glad the band is far happier these days, and it really shows in the music. There is such joy in the last 2 albums that makes me happy. But still, I hope they once again find that anger...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2013, 11:30:13 AM
When it comes to MP's harsh vocals, I didn't mind them so much. The raps on Prophets and Nightmare were enjoyable, the back and forth on Constant Motion was cool. What I REALLY hated among MP's contributions were the backup screams, most evident in the first verse in AROP and the chorus of TCOT. Things like that brought the songs down for me big time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 11, 2013, 06:50:42 PM
I enjoy how the shouting adds the over-the-top feel in TCoT. Complements the music and lyrics nicely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: Grizz on November 11, 2013, 06:50:42 PM
I enjoy how the shouting adds the over-the-top feel in TCoT. Complements the music and lyrics nicely.

Well, if you like it, more power to you. Actually, it is the verses that bug me more. "Let me introduce! My brotha!" Those parts are the ones I didn't like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on November 11, 2013, 08:12:32 PM
If DT can re-incorporate that aggressiveness or anger without the cheesiness, it could make for a great formula with what they've got going on now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 08:32:08 AM
After listening to FII again the other day, I have decided TAMP is actually an underrated and pretty good song, and better than any of their recent ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on November 12, 2013, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 08:32:08 AM
After listening to FII again the other day, I have decided TAMP is actually an underrated and pretty good song, and better than any of their recent ballads.

Yup  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on November 12, 2013, 08:36:41 AM
Not really controversial, but I think DT would sound even better if they incorporated more straight-ahead rock n roll beats, riffs, and solos into the instrumental sections.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 12, 2013, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.

This definitely has some merit.  99% of the people I talk to about DT denote their biggest complaint being the vocals.  The other 1% claim DT are overachievers.  :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 08:56:18 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 12, 2013, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.

This definitely has some merit.  99% of the people I talk to about DT denote their biggest complaint being the vocals.  The other 1% claim DT are overachievers.  :huh:

I used to be in that 99%. When a college friend of mine exposed me to DT through IAW (which at that time was the latest album), for the longest time I was really annoyed by the (to me) unnatural vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 12, 2013, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.
I understand where your coming from, but in the same token how much bigger can a prog metal become in this day and age? Since they are the biggest name in the genre you could make the case that this is as good as it can possibly get.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheAtliator on November 12, 2013, 09:49:10 AM
I used to HATE James LaBrie, and now he's my favorite singer of all time, and my friends make fun of me for being obsessed like a freaking fan girl over this guy  :lol

I think if you don't listen VERY closely to his voice, you hear something else than what he's actually doing and it sounds whiney. One day it just clicked with me when I was listening to PMU, and I realized Holy crap if you listen closely to his voice, there's SO MUCH more in it and he's actually not whining at all, and then it was uphill from there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.
I understand where your coming from, but in the same token how much bigger can a prog metal become in this day and age? Since they are the biggest name in the genre you could make the case that this is as good as it can possibly get.

I see what you're saying, but look at a band like Radiohead that still got huge despite make some weird, weird-ass music. I think with a non-operatic, strong frontman (no offense to JLB, but he's not that strong a frontman), I think they could have tapped a lot more people. Not that I particularly approved of MP's bashing of James, but I totally understood where he was coming from.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 12, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.
I understand where your coming from, but in the same token how much bigger can a prog metal become in this day and age? Since they are the biggest name in the genre you could make the case that this is as good as it can possibly get.

I see what you're saying, but look at a band like Radiohead that still got huge despite make some weird, weird-ass music. I think with a non-operatic, strong frontman (no offense to JLB, but he's not that strong a frontman), I think they could have tapped a lot more people. Not that I particularly approved of MP's bashing of James, but I totally understood where he was coming from.
Well, he obviously have a dated voice that got trapped in the 80's so the sound of his voice is certainly not in style these days.

But consider this...
Think about being the lead singer in a band like Dream theater. A band where the singer is not the focal point and never would be. How many vocalists would be able to check there ego at the door and accept that fact?
I think the beauty of James is that despite his voice not being every ones cup of tea, his strength lies in the fact he is able to embrace and accept his role.
Who knows...if not for James, guys as demanding as these guys are might have shot themselves in the foot by having a revolving door of singers over the years.
I don't think it can be over stated that there are not many vocalists who have the versatility of James that would be willing to play the role of just being a limited part of what they do. He does do that as well as anyone probably ever could.
I have always felt that way about James and respect him for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.

I get the argument, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm still not really sure about that.
They're progressive metal. That alone already makes them a niche band, and by that measure, I think they're already pretty big for their genre. I'm not convinced a different singer with the same music would have resulted in them being huge, even despite the criticism of JLB's voice.
They obviously had the right singer at the right time with PMU, before the music landscape shifted away from that style of vocalist. Even after that, I don't know that anybody who otherwise would have loved their music would have been turned away from Awake by the vocals.
I think it's a more recent criticism, definitely at least post-vocal injury, and their fanbase during the '90s seems totally in line with what I'd expect for a band in their genre in their circumstances, regardless of vocalist.
And during the 2000s, their fanbase has steadily increased to a pretty admirable size. I wouldn't expect any prog metal band to be that much bigger than DT in this day and age.

Could they have done better with another vocalist? It's possible, although I'm just saying that the complaints of JLB's voice alone don't strongly convince me of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 12, 2013, 10:09:34 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.

I get the argument, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm still not really sure about that.
They're progressive metal. That alone already makes them a niche band, and by that measure, I think they're already pretty big for their genre. I'm not convinced a different singer with the same music would have resulted in them being huge, even despite the criticism of JLB's voice.
They obviously had the right singer at the right time with PMU, before the music landscape shifted away from that style of vocalist. Even after that, I don't know that anybody who otherwise would have loved their music would have been turned away from Awake by the vocals.
I think it's a more recent criticism, definitely at least post-vocal injury, and their fanbase during the '90s seems totally in line with what I'd expect for a band in their genre in their circumstances, regardless of vocalist.
And during the 2000s, their fanbase has steadily increased to a pretty admirable size. I wouldn't expect any prog metal band to be that much bigger than DT in this day and age.

Could they have done better with another vocalist? It's possible, although I'm just saying that the complaints of JLB's voice alone don't strongly convince me of that.
Not sure if you read my last couple posts? but man are you on the same page as me! You view it almost identically as I do!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 10:21:17 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 10:09:34 AM
Not sure if you read my last couple posts? but man are you on the same page as me! You view it almost identically as I do!

I was still typing my last one when you posted, but I saw the one before that. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on November 12, 2013, 10:27:47 AM
Agreed with Blob and Tick.  I see no reason to believe that DT could have been any more successful with a different vocalist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 12, 2013, 10:30:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.

I get the argument, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm still not really sure about that.
They're progressive metal. That alone already makes them a niche band, and by that measure, I think they're already pretty big for their genre. I'm not convinced a different singer with the same music would have resulted in them being huge, even despite the criticism of JLB's voice.
They obviously had the right singer at the right time with PMU, before the music landscape shifted away from that style of vocalist. Even after that, I don't know that anybody who otherwise would have loved their music would have been turned away from Awake by the vocals.
I think it's a more recent criticism, definitely at least post-vocal injury, and their fanbase during the '90s seems totally in line with what I'd expect for a band in their genre in their circumstances, regardless of vocalist.
And during the 2000s, their fanbase has steadily increased to a pretty admirable size. I wouldn't expect any prog metal band to be that much bigger than DT in this day and age.

Could they have done better with another vocalist? It's possible, although I'm just saying that the complaints of JLB's voice alone don't strongly convince me of that.

Their popularity in the genre of prog metal is almost unmatched. However, I think breaking out past that boundary to reach a different audience was mostly hampered by the operatic-style vocals.  Every album of theirs since WDADU has had radio-friendly songs (in terms of both style and length), songs that if done by another band or maybe with a different singer would probably have given them more notoriety on popular radio.  Unfortunately once people associate a certain style or song with a band, it's tough to lose that stigmatization.  PMU did that to Dream Theater. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 11:00:00 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on November 12, 2013, 10:27:47 AM
Agreed with Blob and Tick.  I see no reason to believe that DT could have been any more successful with a different vocalist.

Well, look at Prog Snob and I. Both of us really didn't like James' voice. I personally stuck with them because I liked the music too much, but a lot of people I have spoken to have said verbatim "the music is pretty cool. But the singer, sorry."

And again, playing weird music doesn't immediately mean you're confined to a tiny segment of listeners. Radiohead again being the prime example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 12, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
I think, for a lot of people, ripping JLB's voice is an easy out, since many would never listen to music that busy/complicated anyway, so making fun of the singer is their easy way to get out of a friend bugging them about listening anymore.  I am not saying they didn't not like his voice, just that that is the easy thing to point to when you hear something and think, "Geez, I will never listen to that again unless forced to."

Besides, the argument could easily be made that DT never hits it big in '92 with Pull Me Under without JLB, so without him, they arguably never become nearly as popular as they are now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 12, 2013, 11:08:31 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 11:00:00 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on November 12, 2013, 10:27:47 AM
Agreed with Blob and Tick.  I see no reason to believe that DT could have been any more successful with a different vocalist.

Well, look at Prog Snob and I. Both of us really didn't like James' voice. I personally stuck with them because I liked the music too much, but a lot of people I have spoken to have said verbatim "the music is pretty cool. But the singer, sorry."

And again, playing weird music doesn't immediately mean you're confined to a tiny segment of listeners. Radiohead again being the prime example.

Oh...I always liked his voice.  I've always been a fan of the operatic vocals. I can understand why a lot of people don't, however. A good example of me not being able to stomach a band because of the singer was Watchtower. 

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2013, 11:47:34 AM
James has a unique voice that's not quite as accessible as someone like Freddie Mercury, but yeah, like everyone said, you can't just say that's the only reason. I'm sorry, but JLB's voice is still a ton more accessible than Geddy Lee, and Rush were a popular mainstream band for quite a while. And like Kev mentioned, Pull Me Under WAS a hit, and people didn't seem to have a problem with his voice on that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 12, 2013, 11:54:41 AM
Personally I appreciate James LaBrie cause if Dream Theater had a singer doing Opeth type vocals I would not be a fan and I would not listen to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 12, 2013, 11:55:30 AM
I couldn't get into JLB for 6 years, than BOOM, favorite singer of all time.

I remember I bought two DVDs in 2005: Deep Purple - Live in Concert 72/73 and DT - Live at Budokan. The first one because I was absolutely crazy about DP, the second one because my piano teacher recommended it with a passion. Watching them back to back left me with the impression that they were somewhat similar from a certain point of view. Both featured some of the most amazing, virtuoso musicians I ever saw at the time. Except for Glover, since his bass was way out of tune and James, since his voice sucked and he seemed out of place. I remember thinking "why can't DT get their own Gillan?" Anyway, that was my thought process back then, as kid. Funny how our tastes evolve.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2013, 11:59:22 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on November 12, 2013, 08:36:41 AM
Not really controversial, but I think DT would sound even better if they incorporated more straight-ahead rock n roll beats, riffs, and solos into the instrumental sections.

I was right there with you right up until that part where you opened your mouth and words came out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2013, 12:01:09 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 12, 2013, 11:55:30 AM
I couldn't get into JLB for 6 years, than BOOM, favorite singer of all time.
6 months for me, but yeah, same deal. Honestly, when first hearing DT's music, I had a hard time picturing this singer. I mean, his voice is so unique and young sounding that I wasn't sure whether to picture some punk rocker kid, or some khaki wearing Joe Schmoe. And I think actually seeing what he looks like and hearing how he spoke helped me to get into his vocals. It was on the SC Documentary DVD, and I just thought he looked so badass in it, I was like, "Man, this dude's cool!" Once I knew who to picture behind the voice, I started to understand and appreciate it a lot more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 11:54:41 AM
Personally I appreciate James LaBrie cause if Dream Theater had a singer doing Opeth type vocals I would not be a fan and I would not listen to them.

Really? Total opposite for me. Steven Wilson. Mikael Akerfeldt or Ben Folds any day for me. JLB-style operatic singing, that's where it gets dicey.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 12, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
JLB isn't that consistant of a singer, and has a really raspy nasalish voice tone. I don't mind it and prefer his more softer warmer lower register better than his high vocals,  because high vocals are over-rated.

PoW is the best song off SC. TMOLS has the worst intro, but is a great song.

UaGM has meaningless lyrics with too much abstract imagery....who knows what that song is about?

Raw Dog would've kicked ass live transitioning from These Walls.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daybreak at the lake on November 12, 2013, 12:44:37 PM
I think Change of Seasons is boring. Could never get it into it.

Dream Theater only has two flawless albums (I&W, and SFAM).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on November 12, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
Once, I had Dream Theater on shuffle, and after The Dance Of Eternity was The Ministry Of Lost Souls. Now, usually songs that transition into other songs don't work well on shuffle, but this was one of those weird cases where the way TDoE ends, it leads into TMoLS almost perfectly. o_O
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2013, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on November 12, 2013, 12:44:37 PM
Dream Theater only has two flawless albums (I&W, and SFAM).

I'd agree with that statement.

Quote from: Nel on November 12, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
Once, I had Dream Theater on shuffle, and after The Dance Of Eternity was The Ministry Of Lost Souls. Now, usually songs that transition into other songs don't work well on shuffle, but this was one of those weird cases where the way TDoE ends, it leads into TMoLS almost perfectly. o_O

Very interesting. I shall give this a try.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 12, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on November 12, 2013, 12:44:37 PM
Dream Theater only has two flawless albums (I&W, and SFAM).
That's not a controversial opinion in my book. Although SFAM is indeed flawless, it's the only album (besides DT12) that I always listen to in its entirety and never feel compelled to skip a song. I&W has Another Day which is butchered by the cheesy '80s romantic sax, Awake has that ugly, overly distorted guitar tone which especially bothers me in The Mirror & Lie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 12, 2013, 12:54:03 PM
Quote from: Nel on November 12, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
Once, I had Dream Theater on shuffle, and after The Dance Of Eternity was The Ministry Of Lost Souls. Now, usually songs that transition into other songs don't work well on shuffle, but this was one of those weird cases where the way TDoE ends, it leads into TMoLS almost perfectly. o_O

That's never happened to me...I must try now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2013, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 12, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: Daybreak at the lake on November 12, 2013, 12:44:37 PM
Dream Theater only has two flawless albums (I&W, and SFAM).
That's not a controversial opinion in my book. Although SFAM is indeed flawless, it's the only album (besides DT12) that I always listen to in its entirety and never feel compelled to skip a song. I&W has Another Day which is butchered by the cheesy '80s romantic sax, Awake has that ugly, overly distorted guitar tone which especially bothers me in The Mirror & Lie.

Actually yeah, now that you mention it, DT12 is definitely up there with being an incredibly consistent and flawless album. Musically, it probably won't reach the heights of SFAM and I&W for me, but as far as the actual songs not having any flaws in them, that's definitely another one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 12, 2013, 01:42:30 PM
 :lol For me, DT12 already start flawed (FAS).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on November 12, 2013, 07:18:04 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 12, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
UaGM has meaningless lyrics with too much abstract imagery....who knows what that song is about?

Glad someone agrees with me on this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2013, 11:09:17 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 12:17:58 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 11:54:41 AM
Personally I appreciate James LaBrie cause if Dream Theater had a singer doing Opeth type vocals I would not be a fan and I would not listen to them.

Really? Total opposite for me. Steven Wilson. Mikael Akerfeldt or Ben Folds any day for me. JLB-style operatic singing, that's where it gets dicey.

Each to their own. When I hear voices like that, I instantly stop listening (I excuse Opeth because they (used to) have growls too).
Nothing is more of a dealbreaker in music to me than a soft singer with a low range. I'll take IaW era JLB all day every day!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 12:15:55 PM
Interesting. For me what makes a good voice is determined at least half of it by the timbre, expression of it. That's why I love for example Peter Gabriel's singing, even though the guy has almost no range. James has amazing range, but I always felt he had to kinda compensate for his lack of timbre with doing this additional stuff, e.g. the breaths, the wailing etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 13, 2013, 12:21:28 PM
These days I prefer a more "normal" mid-range vocal style to operatic singing, but James is still one of my favorite vocalists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2013, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 12:15:55 PM
Interesting. For me what makes a good voice is determined at least half of it by the timbre, expression of it. That's why I love for example Peter Gabriel's singing, even though the guy has almost no range. James has amazing range, but I always felt he had to kinda compensate for his lack of timbre with doing this additional stuff, e.g. the breaths, the wailing etc.

Err... Lack of timbre? I didn't realize there was such a thing. Timbre is basically the quality of the sound, and I mean, if you don't like it, that's fine. James' timbre is very unique and not something that's necessarily immediately easy to appreciate, but it's still a certain kind of timbre. There's no lack of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 13, 2013, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2013, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 12:15:55 PM
Interesting. For me what makes a good voice is determined at least half of it by the timbre, expression of it. That's why I love for example Peter Gabriel's singing, even though the guy has almost no range. James has amazing range, but I always felt he had to kinda compensate for his lack of timbre with doing this additional stuff, e.g. the breaths, the wailing etc.

Err... Lack of timbre? I didn't realize there was such a thing. Timbre is basically the quality of the sound, and I mean, if you don't like it, that's fine. James' timbre is very unique and not something that's necessarily immediately easy to appreciate, but it's still a certain kind of timbre. There's no lack of it.

Agreed.  James singing an F# would have a different timbre than Jordan playing an F#.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2013, 01:30:25 PM
In fact, if I had to imagine what a lack of timbre sounds like, I'd probably say that a sine wave is something that exemplifies a lack of timbre. Now, if James' voice had the quality of a synthesizer, I'm sure DT would be a hell of a lot more popular, because that would be kinda cool and weird, but yeah, it he has a particular quality, so there's no lack of timbre there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 13, 2013, 02:31:59 PM
As crazy as it sounds I think that even after only 2 albums it would be hard to replace Mike Mangini with anyone else. He has left a mark.

The exception being Mike Portnoy coming back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2013, 01:10:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 12:15:55 PM
Interesting. For me what makes a good voice is determined at least half of it by the timbre, expression of it. That's why I love for example Peter Gabriel's singing, even though the guy has almost no range. James has amazing range, but I always felt he had to kinda compensate for his lack of timbre with doing this additional stuff, e.g. the breaths, the wailing etc.

Err... Lack of timbre? I didn't realize there was such a thing. Timbre is basically the quality of the sound, and I mean, if you don't like it, that's fine. James' timbre is very unique and not something that's necessarily immediately easy to appreciate, but it's still a certain kind of timbre. There's no lack of it.

Call it timbre, overtones, jenesaisquois, whatever. I'm talking about the basic quality of a person's voice, and there I just find James lacking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 13, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
Don't get it. I mean, even DT fans who don't like James' voice so much they agree on one thing that James's voice is one of the unique voice out there. I can understand if ones are not liking it but saying that he lacks of its quality? Don't know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 08:03:23 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 13, 2013, 12:15:55 PM
Interesting. For me what makes a good voice is determined at least half of it by the timbre, expression of it. That's why I love for example Peter Gabriel's singing, even though the guy has almost no range. James has amazing range, but I always felt he had to kinda compensate for his lack of timbre with doing this additional stuff, e.g. the breaths, the wailing etc.

I feel the same about the guys you mentioned. :lol
I love JLB's tone, especially on the older albums. The guys you mentioned have a pretty much run of the mill timbre to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 13, 2013, 08:57:49 PM
Random thought. TSCO is probably the best song on SFAM. And SFAM has a few really good songs on it, so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 13, 2013, 09:24:50 PM
As long as we're being controversial I think TSCO is one of DT's worst songs.  I guess I shouldn't say "worst" because it doesn't really make me cringe, but I think it is kinda cheesy. 

I also think the Dance of Eternity is pretty bad.  I mean, crazy times signatures and wailing and blah blah.  I'll take Enigma Machine over that any day. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 13, 2013, 08:57:49 PM
Random thought. TSCO is probably the best song on SFAM. And SFAM has a few really good songs on it, so.

As an individual song, I think it's definitely one of the best on the album. In the context of the album though, there are others that work better.

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on November 13, 2013, 09:24:50 PM
As long as we're being controversial I think TSCO is one of DT's worst songs.  I guess I shouldn't say "worst" because it doesn't really make me cringe, but I think it is kinda cheesy. 

I also think the Dance of Eternity is pretty bad.  I mean, crazy times signatures and wailing and blah blah.  I'll take Enigma Machine over that any day. 

Enigma Machine is fun, but it's easily my least favourite DT instrumental. It's all riff, riff, solo, solo, solo, riff, riff. TDOE has more variety and is more interesting imo, and the ragtime is one of my favourite DT moments ever. Haters gonna hate! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 13, 2013, 09:58:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 13, 2013, 08:57:49 PM
Random thought. TSCO is probably the best song on SFAM. And SFAM has a few really good songs on it, so.

As an individual song, I think it's definitely one of the best on the album. In the context of the album though, there are others that work better.
Yeah that's fair enough, that's the problem with SFAM, it's really strong as an album but not as strong on a song-by-song basis, still easily #3 in their discog though
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 10:02:04 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 13, 2013, 09:58:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 13, 2013, 08:57:49 PM
Random thought. TSCO is probably the best song on SFAM. And SFAM has a few really good songs on it, so.

As an individual song, I think it's definitely one of the best on the album. In the context of the album though, there are others that work better.
Yeah that's fair enough, that's the problem with SFAM, it's really strong as an album but not as strong on a song-by-song basis, still easily #3 in their discog though

It's #2 for me, but for that reason, I always understand when people don't regard it as highly as I do. It is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, with every song written to serve its role in the album as a whole piece, rather than meant to knock your socks off as a standalone track.
And for that reason, I never listen to tracks individually. I rarely have, and can't even remember the last time I did. It's an album that needs to be listened to and appreciated as a whole. That is the double edged sword that is the concept album, I suppose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 14, 2013, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 13, 2013, 02:31:59 PM
As crazy as it sounds I think that even after only 2 albums it would be hard to replace Mike Mangini with anyone else. He has left a mark.

The exception being Mike Portnoy coming back.
Well I guess everone agrees? Good! :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2013, 02:45:11 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 10:02:04 PM
It's #2 for me, but for that reason, I always understand when people don't regard it as highly as I do. It is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, with every song written to serve its role in the album as a whole piece, rather than meant to knock your socks off as a standalone track.
And for that reason, I never listen to tracks individually. I rarely have, and can't even remember the last time I did. It's an album that needs to be listened to and appreciated as a whole. That is the double edged sword that is the concept album, I suppose.

I think that's only really the case if you care about the lyrics. But musically, I think the vast majority of SFAM is solid on its own. I mean, obviously there are songs like Regression and Through My Words that serve better as lead ins into the following songs, but pretty much everything else on the album is musically awesome even on its own. And if you break it down into moments, it pretty much has no bad moments, aside from maybe the overindulgent sex/gambling breakdown on Home. But aside from that, every moment of music on the album is sheer pleasure to the ears, and a lot of them hold up extremely well on their own merits. Especially the two ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2013, 08:00:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2013, 02:45:11 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 10:02:04 PM
It's #2 for me, but for that reason, I always understand when people don't regard it as highly as I do. It is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, with every song written to serve its role in the album as a whole piece, rather than meant to knock your socks off as a standalone track.
And for that reason, I never listen to tracks individually. I rarely have, and can't even remember the last time I did. It's an album that needs to be listened to and appreciated as a whole. That is the double edged sword that is the concept album, I suppose.

I think that's only really the case if you care about the lyrics. But musically, I think the vast majority of SFAM is solid on its own. I mean, obviously there are songs like Regression and Through My Words that serve better as lead ins into the following songs, but pretty much everything else on the album is musically awesome even on its own. And if you break it down into moments, it pretty much has no bad moments, aside from maybe the overindulgent sex/gambling breakdown on Home. But aside from that, every moment of music on the album is sheer pleasure to the ears, and a lot of them hold up extremely well on their own merits. Especially the two ballads.

You're right, but the first half of the album especially is really designed to run together as part of the album, hence why people rank them together and cop my rage. :lol

A lot of people don't count Regression because it's just an intro to the album, and can't separate Overture 1928 from Strange Deja Vu because of the segue between them, and then TMW is basically a short bridge between that and Fatal Tragedy. I can't recall seeing anybody rank Regression or TMW highly, because they're so short and really designed to be part of the album.

The second half of the album holds up well as individual songs, with tracks like BTL, THE, Home, TSCO, and Finally Free, that work perfectly fine standalone, because they have their own start/finish, rather than running on, and have enough "meat" to work separately.

But there are enough of the shorter tracks to kick off the album that I can understand why some people don't like the album as much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on November 14, 2013, 08:03:28 PM
Through My Words is awesome. One of the best on the album, although a little too short.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 14, 2013, 08:08:06 PM
These days, i rather listen to one great DT song than an entire new album by them  :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 14, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 10:02:04 PM
It's #2 for me, but for that reason, I always understand when people don't regard it as highly as I do. It is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, with every song written to serve its role in the album as a whole piece, rather than meant to knock your socks off as a standalone track.
And for that reason, I never listen to tracks individually. I rarely have, and can't even remember the last time I did. It's an album that needs to be listened to and appreciated as a whole. That is the double edged sword that is the concept album, I suppose.

I agree with every word of this post.  The only quibble I might have is that I think TSCO and Home work as standalone songs if played outside the album, but I don't suspect you'd have much disagreement with that. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2013, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 14, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2013, 10:02:04 PM
It's #2 for me, but for that reason, I always understand when people don't regard it as highly as I do. It is definitely greater than the sum of its parts, with every song written to serve its role in the album as a whole piece, rather than meant to knock your socks off as a standalone track.
And for that reason, I never listen to tracks individually. I rarely have, and can't even remember the last time I did. It's an album that needs to be listened to and appreciated as a whole. That is the double edged sword that is the concept album, I suppose.

I agree with every word of this post.  The only quibble I might have is that I think TSCO and Home work as standalone songs if played outside the album, but I don't suspect you'd have much disagreement with that. 

None at all, if you check my post a few minutes ago on the last page. Plenty of the album works great standalone, but there's also enough of the album that doesn't that I could understand detracts from the songs for some people.
Personally, I think that whole section of the album that runs together is downright incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 14, 2013, 08:17:25 PM
Me too.  And to underscore the position that, like you, I view it as a "sum is greater than the parts" scenario, to this day, I have a difficult time recalling the different song names, especially in that section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2013, 08:31:08 PM
I find that happens when I don't skip tracks on an album, because you're just listening to it whole, and not looking at song names to skip anything, or listen to a song on its own etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2013, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2013, 08:00:23 PM
A lot of people don't count Regression because it's just an intro to the album, and can't separate Overture 1928 from Strange Deja Vu because of the segue between them, and then TMW is basically a short bridge between that and Fatal Tragedy. I can't recall seeing anybody rank Regression or TMW highly, because they're so short and really designed to be part of the album.
While I kind of agree with that logic, at the same time, whenever I do give high praise to songs like Fatal Tragedy, I pretty much include through My Words as a part of that whole listening experience.
Same would go for Vacant and Stream of Consciousness. While SOC is good enough on its own, I rarely listen to Vacant unless it's a part of the latter.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2013, 08:00:23 PM
But there are enough of the shorter tracks to kick off the album that I can understand why some people don't like the album as much.

Well, quite frankly, if people hate on the album because there are no stand alone songs, and can't appreciate it for the amazing listening experience that it is, I have nothing to say to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 14, 2013, 11:06:27 PM
I don't even consider Through My Words a song.
It is part of Fatal Tragedy. They are the same song. I refuse to listen to them separately, since Fatal Tragedy literally never starts if it doesn't start with Through My Words.
But yeah etc. SFAM is brilliant and it's very strongly a concept album that loses something if not taken as a whole, woo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on November 13, 2013, 09:24:50 PM
I also think the Dance of Eternity is pretty bad.  I mean, crazy times signatures and wailing and blah blah.  I'll take Enigma Machine over that any day.

I don't say TDOE is bad, but after three minutes it becomes kinda bland. I'm just like "guys, we all know you are masters of your craft, I'm already convinced. Can't you play something more melodic for a change?"

Enigma Machine is one of the best songs on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 15, 2013, 09:47:33 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 12, 2013, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 11, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
My  controversial opinion of the day: I think James' singing held back DT from becoming big.
I understand where your coming from, but in the same token how much bigger can a prog metal become in this day and age? Since they are the biggest name in the genre you could make the case that this is as good as it can possibly get.

I see what you're saying, but look at a band like Radiohead that still got huge despite make some weird, weird-ass music. I think with a non-operatic, strong frontman (no offense to JLB, but he's not that strong a frontman), I think they could have tapped a lot more people. Not that I particularly approved of MP's bashing of James, but I totally understood where he was coming from.

I have to agree with you there. JLB has never been my cup of tea. He is good in some tracks but I moreorless just tune him out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
I don't say TDOE is bad, but after three minutes it becomes kinda bland. I'm just like "guys, we all know you are masters of your craft, I'm already convinced. Can't you play something more melodic for a change?"
But we get something beautiful and melodic right afterwards. That's what I love about the arrangmenet of having TDOE right before One Last Time.

Quote from: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
Enigma Machine is one of the best songs on DT12.

This should not be a controversial statement. Enigma Machine is DT's best instrumental since TDOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 12:33:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.

Easily one of his best solos.  Like you said, it amalgamates some of the many things that make Petrucci a brilliant guitar player. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 15, 2013, 12:35:08 PM
It is one of his best but I just love the Razor's Edge Solo and TCOT end solo.  Emotional solos, like you pointed out, David Gilmour like, with the shredding is what I always love about his soloing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:39:09 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.

I'd say it's one of his best solos of that type. But I personally think that in spite of having a lot of elements to it, it's still a completely different type of solo from, say, UAGM or As I Am. And I honestly can't even compare them to TSCO just because of the different styles.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2013, 01:03:11 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.

It's certainly in my top 5 JP solos, so yeah, its pretty darn good!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 15, 2013, 02:10:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
This should not be a controversial statement. Enigma Machine is DT's best instrumental since TDOE.
That's kind of just saying "I like EM better than SOC" y'know :P
Which I'd contest, but.
Also I lied, EM isn't the best song on DT12, The Bigger Picture is, though still would say it's the worst "best" song on any DT album so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 02:17:10 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 15, 2013, 02:10:13 PM
That's kind of just saying "I like EM better than SOC" y'know :P
It is better. But SOC is still awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
SFAM is a terrible album, full of filler and rip-off riffs with a daft concept.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 15, 2013, 03:02:25 PM
CONTROVERSY
the story itself isn't anything special but beyond that it's a pretty damn fine album, not much filler at all I'd say
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
SFAM is a terrible album, full of filler and rip-off riffs with a daft concept.

That is just all kinds of wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 03:46:14 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
SFAM is a terrible album, full of filler and rip-off riffs with a daft concept.

That is just all kinds of wrong.

And incendiary
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Sorry dudes. Not even trolling. It's just incredibly cheesey to me, highly derivative and bleh. Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 15, 2013, 03:56:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Sorry dudes. Not even trolling. It's just incredibly cheesey to me, highly derivative and bleh. Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.

Time travel/past lives is cheesy but Spider-man isn't?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 15, 2013, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.
FII is not "even FII" since it's superior to at least BCSL out of the ones you've listed
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 15, 2013, 04:05:07 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 15, 2013, 03:56:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Sorry dudes. Not even trolling. It's just incredibly cheesey to me, highly derivative and bleh. Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.

Time travel/past lives is cheesy but Spider-man isn't?

(https://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/GasparXR/spidermanthread_zps2a402765.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Spider-Man in the window?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 04:09:18 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 15, 2013, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.
FII is not "even FII" since it's superior to at least BCSL out of the ones you've listed

Well, nah. It's easily the weakest out of the bunch there. Opinions, assholes etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 15, 2013, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
SFAM is a terrible album, full of filler and rip-off riffs with a daft concept.

Alright, our love fest is over. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Spider-Man in the window?

Criss Angel in the pool?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 15, 2013, 05:12:23 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Spider-Man in the window?

Criss Angel in the pool?

Cat's in the Cradle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Spider-Man in the window?

Criss Angel in the pool?

The old man's in the music video...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 15, 2013, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
SFAM is a terrible album, full of filler and rip-off riffs with a daft concept.

Alright, our love fest is over. :lol

:( nooooooooooooo
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 15, 2013, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.

Gotta agree with you, it's the only reason I listen to TSCO, other than the solo the song is pretty lame IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 07:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 05:16:28 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 15, 2013, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Spider-Man in the window?

Criss Angel in the pool?

The old man's in the music video...

the widow makes pasta fazool
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 15, 2013, 07:39:30 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Sorry dudes. Not even trolling. It's just incredibly cheesey to me, highly derivative and bleh. Give me Awake, SDOIT, BCSL, heck even FII, anyday.

If SFAM is incredible cheesy, what's left for BCSL then  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 15, 2013, 07:44:35 PM
With the exception of the verses in Nightmare and Tuscany, and BOT there isn't really THAT much cheese. And it's far more enjoyable haha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 15, 2013, 07:57:24 PM
There's AROP keyboard solo too  :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 15, 2013, 08:15:28 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 15, 2013, 12:29:19 PM
Not sure how controversial this is, but was just listening to TSCO the other day and realized that the solo in that song might be JP's best solo. I think it masterfully merges JP's shredding skills with his Gilmore-esque approach to the solo, to a level that no other solo of his does. When I was still in that DT tribute band, I was always looking forward to playing it.

Is that at all controversial? That solo is amazing!
Just the right amount of well placed shred, and a lot of sustained notes that require style to pull off. It's one of those things that separates JP from the typical shredder for me.
It's also just so well composed and constructed in terms of what notes he falls on for the chord changes, but still manages to have a ton of feeling and remain loose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 16, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
I don't say TDOE is bad, but after three minutes it becomes kinda bland. I'm just like "guys, we all know you are masters of your craft, I'm already convinced. Can't you play something more melodic for a change?"
But we get something beautiful and melodic right afterwards. That's what I love about the arrangmenet of having TDOE right before One Last Time.

True, but The Dance of Eternity is still a half longer than it should be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 16, 2013, 08:40:57 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 16, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
I don't say TDOE is bad, but after three minutes it becomes kinda bland. I'm just like "guys, we all know you are masters of your craft, I'm already convinced. Can't you play something more melodic for a change?"
But we get something beautiful and melodic right afterwards. That's what I love about the arrangmenet of having TDOE right before One Last Time.

True, but The Dance of Eternity is still a half longer than it should be.

I agree that it goes on for too long.  I, too, love the first three minutes or so of it, but the last several minutes are quite ponderous and always leave me thinking, "Alright guys, just get to the next song."  By far the only lag time on the Scenes record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 16, 2013, 08:54:01 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 16, 2013, 08:40:57 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 16, 2013, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 15, 2013, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 15, 2013, 04:54:22 AM
I don't say TDOE is bad, but after three minutes it becomes kinda bland. I'm just like "guys, we all know you are masters of your craft, I'm already convinced. Can't you play something more melodic for a change?"
But we get something beautiful and melodic right afterwards. That's what I love about the arrangmenet of having TDOE right before One Last Time.

True, but The Dance of Eternity is still a half longer than it should be.

I agree that it goes on for too long.  I, too, love the first three minutes or so of it, but the last several minutes are quite ponderous and always leave me thinking, "Alright guys, just get to the next song."  By far the only lag time on the Scenes record.

I don't mind the long bouts of self-indulgence.  It's one of the things I love about these guys, showing off the extreme technical side.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 16, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.

You and your wacky opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
I don't disagree but I don't think it's the best part of the song either, the intro exists so. And it's not that exceptional by DT standards, either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on November 17, 2013, 02:40:50 AM
Seriously? What makes DT standards so much more 'high-quality' than just 'standards'? It just honestly seems like you apply to authority(in this case, DT) in order to make your own standards more acceptable by other people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
I don't disagree but I don't think it's the best part of the song either, the intro exists so. And it's not that exceptional by DT standards, either.

Sure it is.
To me that section is better than any section off ADTOE (although the BITS chorus comes close), and most of DT12 (DT12 does have some equally good or better stuff, mostly in IT, and STR).

Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on November 17, 2013, 02:40:50 AM
Seriously? What makes DT standards so much more 'high-quality' than just 'standards'? It just honestly seems like you apply to authority(in this case, DT) in order to make your own standards more acceptable by other people.

I get tired of that one too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 03:15:14 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on November 17, 2013, 02:40:50 AM
Seriously? What makes DT standards so much more 'high-quality' than just 'standards'? It just honestly seems like you apply to authority(in this case, DT) in order to make your own standards more acceptable by other people.

Opinion. But frankly, I'm definitely one of the people who considers DT on a higher echelon of standards compared to other music. Their sheer musicianship is definitely the main reason, not only that, but the caliber of each and every band member. I mean, there are bands out there with exceptional guitarists, or exceptional drummers, or keyboard players, or vocalists, but to have a 5 piece band where each and every member is a god of their instrument, it's rare. And not only that, but they do make full use of their gifts, by bringing the full extent of their musicianship into their music, and exercise utmost creativity with the kinds of complex song structures as well as the actual musicianship.

To me, comparing DT to a band like, let's say, Megadeth, is like comparing Inception to something like Taken. Yes, Taken is an awesome action movie and excels at what it sets out to do, but Inception is more than just an action movie, it's an amazing visual and audio experience.
And I can understand why someone may want the former, based on what they're looking for in music. Personally, movie wise, I'd take Rambo and Taken over Inception or Dark Knight any day, that's just the kinds of movies I prefer to watch on a day to day basis. But that's my preference, I wouldn't say that Taken is a better film than Inception. Even though I still loved Inception, and still enjoy movies that are more grand, or that challenge my intellect, not just give me fighting and explosions.
But when it comes to music, the kind of experience and mastery that Dream Theater provides is something I can never get enough of, even though sometimes, I'm in the mood for something simpler.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:36:05 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
I don't disagree but I don't think it's the best part of the song either, the intro exists so. And it's not that exceptional by DT standards, either.

Sure it is.
To me that section is better than any section off ADTOE (although the BITS chorus comes close), and most of DT12 (DT12 does have some equally good or better stuff, mostly in IT, and STR).


Definitely one of the highlights of recent DT songs, but definitely not the best.  The part after the solo in Wither is on of the highlights of BC&SL and lets not forget the brilliance of TCOT, especially from the acoustic part at 14:20 to the end of the song.  That is up there as one of the best DT moments in my opinion. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2013, 07:38:50 AM
Beautiful Agony is the best part of the song then it rips into the solo.  That whole section is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:36:05 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
I don't disagree but I don't think it's the best part of the song either, the intro exists so. And it's not that exceptional by DT standards, either.

Sure it is.
To me that section is better than any section off ADTOE (although the BITS chorus comes close), and most of DT12 (DT12 does have some equally good or better stuff, mostly in IT, and STR).


Definitely one of the highlights of recent DT songs, but definitely not the best.  The part after the solo in Wither is on of the highlights of BC&SL and lets not forget the brilliance of TCOT, especially from the acoustic part at 14:20 to the end of the song.  That is up there as one of the best DT moments in my opinion. 

TCOT has a lot of stellar moments in it. The unison in the intro is one of their best of any era (and that whole intro is amazing), and that outro acoustic section is beautiful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:36:05 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 16, 2013, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.
I don't disagree but I don't think it's the best part of the song either, the intro exists so. And it's not that exceptional by DT standards, either.

Sure it is.
To me that section is better than any section off ADTOE (although the BITS chorus comes close), and most of DT12 (DT12 does have some equally good or better stuff, mostly in IT, and STR).


Definitely one of the highlights of recent DT songs, but definitely not the best.  The part after the solo in Wither is one of the highlights of BC&SL and lets not forget the brilliance of TCOT, especially from the acoustic part at 14:20 to the end of the song.  That is up there as one of the best DT moments in my opinion. 

TCOT has a lot of stellar moments in it. The unison in the intro is one of their best of any era (and that whole intro is amazing), and that outro acoustic section is beautiful.

An almost flawless song?  Would you agree?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 07:56:34 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
An almost flawless song?  Would you agree?

I find the vocal melodies/sections don't hold up to the quality of the rest of the song, but musically the song is pretty damn good. I don't have a problem with the lyrics either. The quirkiness fits the music perfectly.
So definitely not flawless for me, but a great song overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 08:08:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 07:56:34 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
An almost flawless song?  Would you agree?

I find the vocal melodies/sections don't hold up to the quality of the rest of the song, but musically the song is pretty damn good. I don't have a problem with the lyrics either. The quirkiness fits the music and perfectly.
So definitely not flawless for me, but a great song overall.

I get what you mean about the vocal melodies. They almost seems unorthodox.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 08:11:29 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 08:08:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 07:56:34 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
An almost flawless song?  Would you agree?

I find the vocal melodies/sections don't hold up to the quality of the rest of the song, but musically the song is pretty damn good. I don't have a problem with the lyrics either. The quirkiness fits the music and perfectly.
So definitely not flawless for me, but a great song overall.

I get what you mean about the vocal melodies. They almost seems unorthodox.

The problem for me is that the verse melodies simply follow the progression implied by the guitar/keyboard chords, then the pre-chorus is basically spoken (ie. no melody at all), so it's not as interesting as it could be. The chorus is good, and has nice harmonies, but it doesn't make up for the rest.
I don't think the vocal sections are bad, but they don't have the same amount of care and detail as the music does imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 17, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 08:11:29 AM


The problem for me is that the verse melodies simply follow the progression implied by the guitar/keyboard chords, then the pre-chorus is basically spoken (ie. no melody at all), so it's not as interesting as it could be. The chorus is good, and has nice harmonies, but it doesn't make up for the rest.
I don't think the vocal sections are bad, but they don't have the same amount of care and detail as the music does imo.

Totally agree.  I always say that if minutes 4-9 were as awesome as the rest of the song, it could have been a top 5 DT song for me.  Like you said, those minutes aren't bad or anything; they just aren't great like the rest of the song.  But as is, the song is still pretty great. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 17, 2013, 08:20:53 AM
I'm making wine in my basement by the way. Who wants to come see?   :xbones
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on November 17, 2013, 08:27:45 AM
Okay, let's go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 17, 2013, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.

I don't like it that much either, but no way it's worse than the Portnoy-core.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 02:49:32 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on November 17, 2013, 02:40:50 AM
Seriously? What makes DT standards so much more 'high-quality' than just 'standards'? It just honestly seems like you apply to authority(in this case, DT) in order to make your own standards more acceptable by other people.

I get tired of that one too.

DT fans overrate DT  :xbones
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- the best DT albums by some way are the bookends (WDADU,I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12)..and by implication......
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
- Octavarium and SFAM are over rated.
- the only song off SFAM I listen to regularly is Fatal Tragedy
- BC&SL is better than the 3 or 4 albums that preceded it
- 6.00 is the weakest track on Awake and Bridges In The Sky is the weakest on ADTOE (although I still do rate BIIS...6.00 I could live without)



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- the best DT albums by some way are the bookends (WDADU,I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12)..and by implication......
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
- Octavarium and SFAM are over rated.
- the only song off SFAM I listen to regularly is Fatal Tragedy
- BC&SL is better than the 3 or 4 albums that preceded it
- 6.00 is the worst track on Awake and Bridges In The Sky is the worst on ADTOE





Is it opposite day again already?

Quote from: Ruba on November 17, 2013, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.

I don't like it that much either, but no way it's worse than the Portnoy-core.

:facepalm: Oh boy, another anti-MP term to add to the DTF vocabulary. Just what we needed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 17, 2013, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- the best DT albums by some way are the bookends (WDADU,I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12)..and by implication......
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
- Octavarium and SFAM are over rated.
- the only song off SFAM I listen to regularly is Fatal Tragedy
- BC&SL is better than the 3 or 4 albums that preceded it
- 6.00 is the worst track on Awake and Bridges In The Sky is the worst on ADTOE

Some of these opinions are pretty fucking crazy.  The bolded one is strange, either it's better than 6 Degees or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on November 17, 2013, 09:13:12 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
(https://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o669/bolsters/headshake.gif~original)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 17, 2013, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- the best DT albums by some way are the bookends (WDADU,I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12)..and by implication......
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
- Octavarium and SFAM are over rated.
- the only song off SFAM I listen to regularly is Fatal Tragedy
- BC&SL is better than the 3 or 4 albums that preceded it
- 6.00 is the worst track on Awake and Bridges In The Sky is the worst on ADTOE

Some of these opinions are pretty fucking crazy.  The bolded one is strange, either it's better than 6 Degees or not.

Gimme a break - I've only been here 5 mins  :P 

In my opinion people who call others opinions fucking crazy are fucking crazy .........especially in a thread asking for controversial opinions. I thought at least I'd be safe here  ;D   I'm 39 and bought my first DT album 21 years ago , played plenty of these songs in a DT cover band etc.... so I'm not some Johnny Come Lately to DT who has formed opinion without thought or plenty of years as a fan. 

I'm sure I'd find some of your TASTE just as crazy but I'd have enough respect for an OPINION to   :-X

Apologies for the vague reference to 3 or 4 albums.................I rate SDOIT Disc One as the lowest of any DT disc but rate Disc 2 at 90% (higher than BC&SL) which makes it a hard one to place.   If I was to include Disc One then make it 4 albums.

As I posted in my intro post I'm well aware that my preference for what I would call the more melodic DT albums is not the core feeling here but I have seen enough who agree with me to know I'm not Robinson Crusoe........

 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 17, 2013, 09:28:31 PM
Relax bro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on November 17, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
You're opinions are indeed crazy, but so are mine so welcome to the club, bro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 17, 2013, 09:55:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

Indeed! Every band has fans like that, because every band has fans that enjoy their music THAT much. One of my best friends is that kind of fan of all three bands, maybe a little less for The Beatles. Hell, I'm even a pretty huge fan of Pink Floyd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:56:19 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 17, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
You're opinions are indeed crazy, but so are mine so welcome to the club, bro.

Cheers.................and yes , I will relax. I just expected to last longer than 5 posts without being called fucking crazy - give me 6 or 7 at least   :coolio


DT are certainly a polarising band.   When I first checked out The Enemy Inside on Youtube ( a track I love and which every DT fan I know loves)I couldn't believe all the bile and abuse being thrown around on the Youtube comments etc....

In the end I'd be quite happy (from the output to date) to just live with I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12 most of the time ............the rest , aside from my 1-2 faves from each,  get very little airplay even though I rate WDADU , FII and BC&SL quite highly.   Images and Words is for me THE ultimate album by any band outside of Van Halen I (I rate both at 100%) but once you lose too much of what made that album so brilliant my attention wanes quite a bit.   I feel they have recaptured that on the last 2 albums.

Anyhow..........feels good to be back "on board" with the band after the last couple of releases and really anticipating/enjoying new material again - and not just the odd track. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 17, 2013, 10:29:08 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:56:19 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 17, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
You're opinions are indeed crazy, but so are mine so welcome to the club, bro.

Cheers.................and yes , I will relax. I just expected to last longer than 5 posts without being called fucking crazy - give me 6 or 7 at least   :coolio


DT are certainly a polarising band.   When I first checked out The Enemy Inside on Youtube ( a track I love and which every DT fan I know loves)I couldn't believe all the bile and abuse being thrown around on the Youtube comments etc....

In the end I'd be quite happy (from the output to date) to just live with I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12 most of the time ............the rest , aside from my 1-2 faves from each,  get very little airplay even though I rate WDADU , FII and BC&SL quite highly.   Images and Words is for me THE ultimate album by any band outside of Van Halen I (I rate both at 100%) but once you lose too much of what made that album so brilliant my attention wanes quite a bit.   I feel they have recaptured that on the last 2 albums.

Anyhow..........feels good to be back "on board" with the band after the last couple of releases and really anticipating/enjoying new material again - and not just the odd track. 

Well, you shouldn't. Besides, all is fun and loving on DTF. :welcome:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

The difference is that these bands aren't overrated, isn't crazy saying that them belongs in the "greatest bands ever club".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 11:04:32 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

The difference is that these bands aren't overrated.

I'd disagree on all three. :lol

And I don't see how DT fans overrate DT. Sure, you get the few hardcore fans who think they can do no wrong, but that exists in any fanbase. Overall, DTF is evidence of a balanced fanbase.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 11:04:32 PM
And I don't see how DT fans overrate DT.
I was more joking about it because of that "DT standards thing"  :biggrin:
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 11:04:32 PM
I'd disagree on all three. :lol
Don't mind, is more of a personal opinion, just think the consistency of these bands are on a whole another level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 17, 2013, 11:40:15 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- the best DT albums by some way are the bookends (WDADU,I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12)..and by implication......
- WDADU is top 5
- SDOIT Disc One is the low point of DT albums
- Octavarium and SFAM are over rated.
- the only song off SFAM I listen to regularly is Fatal Tragedy
- BC&SL is better than the 3 or 4 albums that preceded it
- 6.00 is the weakest track on Awake and Bridges In The Sky is the weakest on ADTOE (although I still do rate BIIS...6.00 I could live without)
First: Not really, the two bookends are among the worst
Second: Nooooo
Third: Noooooooooooo
Fourth: 8VM is underrated as an album actually, also nooooooooooooooooo
Fifth: Misssing out then man
Sixth: BC&SL is the worst them actually
Seventh: Both are horribly wrong, high-ranking tracks on each album IMO

tl;dr your opinions are bad according to my opinions but to each their own, I seriously want you to justify some of these though
ARE YOU JUSTIFIED
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 17, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
also DT as a band is above average, they have a lot more good stuff than bad stuff and considering they're almost 25 years out from their first album now it's impressive that their recent stuff can still be good
but they have done wrong
they have done lots of wrong in the past two albums especially, thouh adtoe is a middling album since it's got both trash and treasure on it
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 12:00:22 AM
I like BITS, i think it's the only long song on ADTOE that hasn't a section that feels forced (despite the intro) and the chorus is great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 18, 2013, 12:56:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2013, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 17, 2013, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 16, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
The Beautiful Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember is my least favorite part of the song.

I don't like it that much either, but no way it's worse than the Portnoy-core.

:facepalm: Oh boy, another anti-MP term to add to the DTF vocabulary. Just what we needed.

I'm pretty sure someone said that before me. And the section itself isn't bad, the vocals are.

E: Here it is:

Quote from: MetropolisWatches on July 07, 2012, 04:50:43 PM
BC&SL is their weakest album with the least amount of replay-ability for me. Aside from The Count of Tuscany, every song felt lacking (while all containing some great elements). What hurts even more, is that A Nightmare to Remember could have been a DT classic, but was horribly blemished by the infamous Portnoy-core section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2013, 02:48:31 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 17, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
also DT as a band is above average, they have a lot more good stuff than bad stuff and considering they're almost 25 years out from their first album now it's impressive that their recent stuff can still be good
but they have done wrong
they have done lots of wrong in the past two albums especially, thouh adtoe is a middling album since it's got both trash and treasure on it

First of all, that opinion about ADTOE is entirely subjective. And second, can you think of a single band in history that existed for over 25 years and hadn't had a at least a 'middling' album, if not total failures? Because again, music is a matter of taste and opinion, but I'm sure there's not a single band out there that has 30 years (or 12) of 100% critically acclaimed albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 18, 2013, 02:55:06 AM
I'm obviously not a fanboy who thinks every DT album is gold, but for me personally, DT have the highest hit rate of any band that has been going near that long.
I'm not into the silly idea that "DT's worst is still better than other bands", but their average is pretty darn good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 18, 2013, 03:04:25 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:06:01 PM
- WDADU is top 5
:hifive:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:27:59 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 17, 2013, 09:56:19 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 17, 2013, 09:29:34 PM
You're opinions are indeed crazy, but so are mine so welcome to the club, bro.

Cheers.................and yes , I will relax. I just expected to last longer than 5 posts without being called fucking crazy - give me 6 or 7 at least   :coolio


DT are certainly a polarising band.   When I first checked out The Enemy Inside on Youtube ( a track I love and which every DT fan I know loves)I couldn't believe all the bile and abuse being thrown around on the Youtube comments etc....

In the end I'd be quite happy (from the output to date) to just live with I&W, Awake, ADTOE and DT12 most of the time ............the rest , aside from my 1-2 faves from each,  get very little airplay even though I rate WDADU , FII and BC&SL quite highly.   Images and Words is for me THE ultimate album by any band outside of Van Halen I (I rate both at 100%) but once you lose too much of what made that album so brilliant my attention wanes quite a bit.   I feel they have recaptured that on the last 2 albums.

Anyhow..........feels good to be back "on board" with the band after the last couple of releases and really anticipating/enjoying new material again - and not just the odd track.

There's that 'opinion' word again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:28:22 AM
Here's my contribution to the thread;

ADTOE is DT's weakest album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2013, 03:43:53 AM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:27:59 AM
There's that 'opinion' word again.

Opinions are one thing, but there's a difference between constructive criticism, and plain flaming and harshness. Something that's unfortunately a bit of an epidemic what with the anonymity of the internet and everything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 18, 2013, 04:43:54 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

The difference is that these bands aren't overrated, isn't crazy saying that them belongs in the "greatest bands ever club".

Woah, hold on, I'm calling you on this. You seem to be saying that it would be crazy for someone to say that Dream Theater belongs in the "greatest bands ever club." Why? Is it because they're younger? Have a smaller fanbase?

In my personal opinion, Dream Theater is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, band of all time. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me. I'm not saying you have to agree, but seriously, you're saying that it's "crazy" to even state such an opinion?

To me, the greatness of a band has nothing to do with its popularity or how "classic" it is and everything to do with the quality of the music. In my judgement, DT has a discography of 9 or 10 great albums and 2-3 good albums. I like their music more than that of any of those three bands, and it's not even close. Again, not saying you're wrong to disagree, but I am asking why the fact that I think this makes me "crazy."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on November 18, 2013, 05:56:43 AM
Welcome to Club Farken Crazy 425  :tup

Quote from: Parama on November 17, 2013, 11:40:15 PM
, I seriously want you to justify some of these though
ARE YOU JUSTIFIED

Look .............I don't take any offence at any of this really but , having been a long time member/moderator of many music forums , I don't dig the whole idea of newbs and/or those with a very different opinion needing to justify it to those who make up the consensus to get any sort of respect.  To paraphrase Voltaire (Hall actually) with some editing " "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it ...........and to do so without justification"  :P

My favourite couple of bands ever are Van Halen and Dream Theater , closely followed by a whole load of others including Queensryche , Conception, Symphony X , Talisman , Ozzy, Trail of Murder, Crimson glory and plenty more AOR/ melodic rock/metal type stuff.    I've been a long time member of various VH and melodic rock/metal forums - all of which I recently gave up on due to them fading away and/or having speed/navigation issues.

Some of the VH forums had similar type stuff...........Diver Down is the WDADU of the classic VH catalogue and if someone came on and said that was their fave VH album  then they could expect a pasting .  I would then have to get in amongst it and defend them (as a moderator) even though I would strongly disagree myself.  That's my view anyway - opinions need no more justification that you liking a particular style of car , girl/boy , food.........whatever and are no less valid than the consensus. 

Having said all that I'll try and see if I can fathom why my opinions are so different to most here - I haven't come here to stir up any shit and at least I was observant enough during my lurking to pick up on the fact that my opinions belonged in the controversial opinion thread  :smiley:   Having said that there were a couple of members in the "back to back" thread who rated I&W/Awake and ADTOE/DT12 as clearly their best so I don't feel totally alone on this.

If I look at my CD collection I'd class 85% of it as melodic rock/melodic metal and the rest a mix of blues/classic rock and so on......... that which would be classed as prog metal is all very melodic metal too.........once we get into prog for progs sake I switch off.  So I love prog metal but only within a very narrow range of material.   I&W is my top metal album of any kind but it has the ultimate formula for my very specific taste - it's progressive  with great musicianship and song writing but also extremely melodic /catchy. ...it never loses my attention.  I'll go as heavy as you like but if I stop tapping my foot/banging my head then I lose interest.

The real clue perhaps is the total absence of prog rock in my collection and I think perhaps that's the difference - I played guitar for 20 years in rock/metal bands (even a DT tribute) and studied theory formally etc..........even did Joe Satriani for my high school grad year exam performance at age 17.......but I generally find I have zero attraction to bands like Spocks beard, Marillion etc...........or extremely talented guitarists whose ability I totally respect but I struggle with when it comes to their songwriting (Guthrie etc...) . 

So Dream Theater grabbed my undivided attention on WDADU, I&W, Awake, and less so FII, BC&SL and struggled to elsewhere until the last two albums.   And quite seriously.....................it really bugs me that a band that I worship has produced a reasonable amount of material I actually dislike but there's not much I can do about it.   Van Halen never did that until the late 80's but it still happened.  And Queensryche (my 3rd fave ever) produced ever smellier piles of crap from Promised Land onwards (IMHO of course  ;)  ).................again it really saddened me but hey!

Anyhow..........don't know if there's anything in that but that's my impression.

I seriously would much rather listen to Afterlife , A Fortune In Lies or The Killing Hand than 90% of stuff off SDOIT Disc One, Octavarium, ToT, SC ......... I don't get your opinion either but it doesn't bother me to the point of needing you to justify it to me or call you fucking crazy .

Like I said............I've seen this all before elsewhere and it's water off a duck's back ........and I'll leave it at that .I've done my best to explain where I'm coming from in my Intro post and here and if that's insufficient then I can live with that .

Cheers

Brent



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 05:57:57 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

The difference is that these bands aren't overrated, isn't crazy saying that them belongs in the "greatest bands ever club".

LZ are overrated. Some of The Beatles catalog is overrated too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 18, 2013, 06:12:38 AM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 04:43:54 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 17, 2013, 07:41:58 PM
DT fans overrate DT  :xbones

Oh please, every band has fans like that.
Have you ever listened to hardcore Led Zepplin fans, or hardcore Beatles or Pink Floyd fans?

The difference is that these bands aren't overrated, isn't crazy saying that them belongs in the "greatest bands ever club".

Woah, hold on, I'm calling you on this. You seem to be saying that it would be crazy for someone to say that Dream Theater belongs in the "greatest bands ever club." Why? Is it because they're younger? Have a smaller fanbase?

In my personal opinion, Dream Theater is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, band of all time. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me. I'm not saying you have to agree, but seriously, you're saying that it's "crazy" to even state such an opinion?

To me, the greatness of a band has nothing to do with its popularity or how "classic" it is and everything to do with the quality of the music. In my judgement, DT has a discography of 9 or 10 great albums and 2-3 good albums. I like their music more than that of any of those three bands, and it's not even close. Again, not saying you're wrong to disagree, but I am asking why the fact that I think this makes me "crazy."
Wholeheartedly agreed. Coming from a classic prog background (most of my favorite bands would run out of steam after 3-4 great albums), I am astonished by the quality and consistency DT can achieve this late in their career and the sheer quantity of excellent songs they've written. I mean, I cannot do a proper top 50 list, since I'd be leaving off too many songs I love. I can't think of another band that would put me in a place like that. All things considered, I am inclined to go with single greatest band of all time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 02:20:53 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

I wouldn't say that this is that controvesial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on November 18, 2013, 02:48:37 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Not only i think These Walls is a great song, but i also think it is a great representation of all the good DT elements, JR has a great atmospheric tone, JP covers almost every aspect of his sound, from the clean sound to the heavy riff, MP does a great job with subtle intricacies that make his parts interesting, and James gives a very emotional performance.

I happen to think it is one of the best songs of the modern (aka after SFAM) era of DT, i really love it, but i respect your opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 03:38:50 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 04:43:54 AM
Woah, hold on, I'm calling you on this. You seem to be saying that it would be crazy for someone to say that Dream Theater belongs in the "greatest bands ever club." Why? Is it because they're younger? Have a smaller fanbase?

In my personal opinion, Dream Theater is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, band of all time. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me. I'm not saying you have to agree, but seriously, you're saying that it's "crazy" to even state such an opinion?

To me, the greatness of a band has nothing to do with its popularity or how "classic" it is and everything to do with the quality of the music. In my judgement, DT has a discography of 9 or 10 great albums and 2-3 good albums. I like their music more than that of any of those three bands, and it's not even close. Again, not saying you're wrong to disagree, but I am asking why the fact that I think this makes me "crazy."

Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

AFTR grew on me, but I didn't like it at all at first. It works better when listening to the full album. Also, Prophets of War exists so your argument is invalid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on November 18, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
I really like Prophets of War.

I dunno if I've mentioned that in this thread before, so there it is. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on November 18, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:28:22 AM
Here's my contribution to the thread;

DT12 is DT's weakest album.

FTFM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 04:01:22 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on November 18, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
I really like Prophets of War.

I dunno if I've mentioned that in this thread before, so there it is.


PoW isn't THAT bad especially when you take into consideration that people like Never Enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 18, 2013, 04:04:02 PM
onno onKNOWS what's up
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: Onno on November 18, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:28:22 AM
Here's my contribution to the thread;

DT12 is DT's weakest album.

FTFM

onNO
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 18, 2013, 04:16:46 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 03:38:50 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 04:43:54 AM
Woah, hold on, I'm calling you on this. You seem to be saying that it would be crazy for someone to say that Dream Theater belongs in the "greatest bands ever club." Why? Is it because they're younger? Have a smaller fanbase?

In my personal opinion, Dream Theater is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, band of all time. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me. I'm not saying you have to agree, but seriously, you're saying that it's "crazy" to even state such an opinion?

To me, the greatness of a band has nothing to do with its popularity or how "classic" it is and everything to do with the quality of the music. In my judgement, DT has a discography of 9 or 10 great albums and 2-3 good albums. I like their music more than that of any of those three bands, and it's not even close. Again, not saying you're wrong to disagree, but I am asking why the fact that I think this makes me "crazy."

Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.

I don't see why "consistency" is any more or less valid than whether you like the band, because it still relates to whether you like their songs or not, and how many of them you like and don't like. I can see what you mean when it comes to influence -- bands like The Beatles and Led Zeppelin have influenced probably hundreds of millions of people, and in that respect, that's an accomplishment. However, I still don't personally think they're great because even though they have influenced many, they don't influence me. I don't see why one's opinion of something is silly if it is based solely on the person's tastes -- that's exactly what an opinion is!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on November 18, 2013, 04:17:51 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 04:01:22 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on November 18, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
I really like Prophets of War.

I dunno if I've mentioned that in this thread before, so there it is.


PoW isn't THAT bad especially when you take into consideration that people like Never Enough.

I like Never Enough as well.   :lol

Though not as much as I used to. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 18, 2013, 04:21:40 PM
Some woman out there seems to REALLY enjoy Never Enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:29:16 PM
I never really cared for Never Enough, but it works okay when you are listening to the full album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:29:16 PM
I never really cared for Never Enough, but it works okay when you are listening to the full album.

This, but I like it a lot more than I used to. It's not even the lyrics, but the way James sings the verses that puts me off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:36:38 PM
I always could never really get past the Muse Stockholm Syndrome similarities.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
When it comes to listening to full albums, I don't mind when Never Enough comes on, but can't wait for Prophets of War to end. Sure I could skip it, but I don't like skipping songs if I'm listening to the full album. If it came on shuffle, I'd definitely skip it, but I remedied that by deleting it from my phone. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:55:30 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
When it comes to listenign to full albums, I don't mind when Never Enough comes on, but can't wait for Prophets of War to end. Sure I could skip it, but I don't like skipping songs if I'm listening to the full album. If it came on shuffle, I'd definitely skip it, but I remedied that by deleting it from my phone. :biggrin:

I'm exactly the same way.  I almost feel guilty if I think about skipping a song when I intended to listen to the whole album.  Glad I'm not the only one who does this, I always thought it might have been a bit odd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 03:38:50 PM
Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.

So you're talking about sales, then. In which respect there is no such thing as the greatest band, there's only such thing as "most successful" or "most marketable."

If Led Zeppelin were a new band that came out in this day and age, they wouldn't sell crap because the hey day of Rock'n'Roll is over, and that's pretty much why DT isn't a big worldwide sensation, the world is more interested in other kinds of music, other types of sounds. But that doesn't make what they do any less great. And in terms of sheer musicianship, DT could blow any of those all time top selling rock bands out of the water. So, really, skill is the only tangible value that you could actually compare the bands by. And I'm not saying that makes DT's music BETTER, (although that, combined with many other elements, in my opinion, does make them better) but just the same, influence and sales don't make a band better either. So who's to say that DT doesn't belong up there with the all time greats like Zepplin? Especially considering that the term "underrated" exists for a reason, and as far as worldwide influence goes, DT is a very underrated band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:22:57 PM
Quote from: Grizz on November 18, 2013, 04:21:40 PM
Some woman out there seems to REALLY enjoy Never Enough.

I love Prophets of War, Never Enough, Along for the Ride, Forsaken, I Walk Beside You... all are awesome songs. Forsaken and I Walk Beside You to me have always been examples of how Dream Theater can write simple, formulaic, straightforward songs entirely in 4/4 and still make them amazing. They'll never be up there with ACOS or 8VM or TCOT in terms of how much I love them, but I love them all the same! For me it'd be like saying that I really don't enjoy Blackfield just because I'm obsessed with Voyage 34 or The Sky Moves Sideways. I really enjoy the tracks where they rein themselves in a little and stick to a tight schedule, they're never going to be my favourites in any list but I still think they're awesome. And there are several DT tracks I think are wank and don't like at all so it's not like I'm just fangirling over everything. :P

I dislike most of DT12 and find a lot of it rather bland, but BC&SL/ADToE/SC are all freakin' awesome albums.

My controversial opinion: Awake, while being a fantastic album, comes under most other Dream Theater albums for me.

DT12 is my second to least favourite, above WDADU. So far.

Non-controversial opinion: Scenes is, and always will be, the greatest album in existence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 05:30:01 PM
I just don't like Never Enough's lyrical premise. Save it for the autobiography.  And like some others said, the Muse resemblance is distracting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 18, 2013, 05:31:33 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 03:38:50 PM
Depends what is less silly, judging bands based on opinions or no...based on opinions, any band can be the best, even One Direction. I rather judge based on things like influency, consistency and many other things. Of course you can have your favorite bands, but they're being along the greatest only because it's one of your favorites it's another thing.

EDIT: Also, the greatest bands club thing, i'm talking something like TOP 50 or 100 bands, not 1000 or 2000.

Sure, someone can THINK that the best band ever is One Direction. In fact, I know people who do. Now, that opinion can be more or less justified (in this case, less, in the case of, say, Pink Floyd, more), but it's still an opinion.

You seem to be out to create a standard for greatest band of all time that will eventually lead to a conclusion that everyone can agree on. The only way to do that, since no one has devised a method to evaluate the quality of music objectively, would be to use either sales or some formula involving the sales of bands they've influenced.

I think we should use the word "greatest" to refer to something closer to the actual meaning of the word "great." Even if it means we can't state definitively that one band is the greatest.

Note: I think that my method doesn't eliminate the distinction between favorite band and great band. I might consider a band to be a great band judging on the quality of their musicianship and songwriting, but I may not personally care too much for it. For me, Zep could be a limited example of the former (I think they're overrated, but still a good band. However, I don't enjoy them very much aside from a few songs). Similarly, I might recognize the mediocrity of a band's musicianship or songwriting but there could be something about that them that makes them one of my favorites, even if I don't consider them to be that great (I really like Steve Harris's solo band though they really aren't that fantastic of a band).

A good metric for greatest band could be what I suggested: musicianship and songwriting, perhaps measured over a period of time (to determine consistency). I think DT is the greatest band in all these respects. They have an exceedingly high level of musicianship as well as superb songwriting, and DT12 is every bit as excellent in these respects as Awake. All of these traits, they have more of than any other band of which I know. That's why I think they're the greatest band ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:32:23 PM
Yeah it does come across a little martyrdom-like. Stockholm Syndrome has been one of my favourite songs since I was about 15 so the flavour is quite welcome to me :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 05:31:33 PM
A good metric for greatest band could be what I suggested: musicianship and songwriting, perhaps measured over a period of time (to determine consistency). I think DT is the greatest band in all these respects. They have an exceedingly high level of musicianship as well as superb songwriting, and DT12 is every bit as excellent in these respects as Awake. All of these traits, they have more of than any other band of which I know. That's why I think they're the greatest band ever.

Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think). And as for songwriting, again it's impossible to objectively assess. Unless you're just talking about your own personal method of assessing which band is, for you, the greatest. Which seems a more likely premise. In which case, ignore me, it's late, I'm tired. DT became the greatest band in my world the minute Stream of Consciousness clicked nine years ago and all I can really go by is how their music makes me feel. Nothing ('xcept Wilson) has ever come close since <3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 05:43:00 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:32:23 PM
Yeah it does come across a little martyrdom-like. Stockholm Syndrome has been one of my favourite songs since I was about 15 so the flavour is quite welcome to me :)

I really have no issue with Muse. I've never really listened to them enough to give them a fair judgement. I just don't think that JLB has any business trying to sound like him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:45:15 PM
Oh, you mean you think his vocals are too like (or trying to be like) Matt Bellamy's? I always felt the comparison was drawn from the music itself, not the vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
I'm sure the Bellamy vocals were all MP's idea, and I'm sure, just like with Forsaken, JLB had a better melody or singing style originally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 05:51:42 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:45:15 PM
Oh, you mean you think his vocals are too like (or trying to be like) Matt Bellamy's? I always felt the comparison was drawn from the music itself, not the vocals.

When I first heard Never Enough, people were making a lot of comparisons to Muse.  I had never heard a Muse song before so I gave that track a listen.  I felt like it was as similar to his vocal style as it could be without being blatantly obvious.  Not just the tone of his voice but the vocal melodies themselves. 

Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 05:49:23 PM
I'm sure the Bellamy vocals were all MP's idea, and I'm sure, just like with Forsaken, JLB had a better melody or singing style originally.

I don't doubt that it was MP's idea.  We know for a fact he is a big Muse fan, though I am not sure if JLB is/was.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:52:26 PM
I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:54:25 PM
I feel certain that those people were almost definitely referring specifically to Stockholm Syndrome rather than Bellamy's voice as a whole... listen to the opening (instrumental) few bars of Stockholm Syndrome and then Never Enough right next to each other, they're so blatantly similar I just figured that was where the comparison came from.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:52:26 PM
I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?

I haven't heard many Muse songs (thankfully) but that whole breathing deeply thing is something that the Muse guy does, and something that wasn't needed in Never Enough other than for MP to let everyone know how much he likes Muse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:56:12 PM
Awwww yeah, this has just made me listen to Stockholm Syndrome properly for the first time in a few months, I remember the first time I ever heard this track on Kerrang TV and everything, and nearly crying with awe as an overwhelmed and obsessed 14 year old, gooooood memories! <3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:52:26 PM
I really (and I'm not trying to be obtuse) don't understand what it is about JLB's vocals on Never Enough that cause people to say he sounds like he's trying to emulate Bellamy. I've been a huge fan of Muse for 11 years and Dream Theater for 9 and I don't know what JLB is doing that people think is so much like Bellamy...? I can certainly imagine Bellamy singing it, but it's not like his style is completely unique with no similar vocalists out there. Anyone able to enlighten me?

The vocals on the song are completely unlike anything else JLB has sang before and since, so people started to draw a comparison to something/someone. Like I said above I didn't know who Muse was until I heard the comparisons.  I picked up it immediately.  Maybe saying the styles sound identical is a bit drastic, but the influence is certainly there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:59:07 PM
I just listened to Never Enough, and noticed the breathing, good point. I never even noticed that. With Muse it's one of those awful things, once you hear it and start to focus on it you can't hear anything else but Bellamy frantically gasping for breath every couple of bars, it's rather offputting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2013, 06:02:32 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:36:41 PM
Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think).

Anyone who says JP puts too much emphasis on technicality over emotion has clearly never heard The Spirit Carries on or Through Her Eyes. To name a few of many.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 06:06:16 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.

Great response.   ;)

There are many others.  Most people just associate the name Dream Theater with a specific style so judging the book by it's cover becomes their logic. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2013, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
Yeah it's normally people who really, really hate progressive metal as a whole that I've heard say things like that. One response: Lines in the Sand.

Well, people with that kind of negativity aren't being objective anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, their opinions hold much less of a value as a result. If I really hate a band or a type of music, I can't honestly say that I'm listening to it with the most open of minds, because I don't really want to hear it. But as a result, when discussing such a band or music, I wouldn't make it my business to comment on something like that anyway, if I don't understand it, or am not extensively familiar with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 18, 2013, 06:31:03 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on November 18, 2013, 04:16:46 PM
I can see what you mean when it comes to influence -- bands like The Beatles and Led Zeppelin have influenced probably hundreds of millions of people, and in that respect, that's an accomplishment. However, I still don't personally think they're great because even though they have influenced many, they don't influence me. I don't see why one's opinion of something is silly if it is based solely on the person's tastes -- that's exactly what an opinion is!

This is it, even if you personally don't think they're great, you are aware of what they did and you can respect them, isn't?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 18, 2013, 06:35:21 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 18, 2013, 05:36:41 PM
Surely musicianship and songwriting is just as impossible to quantify, though? I mean even musicianship, most people would agree Petrucci for example is a virtuoso at his instrument, but plenty would also argue he overuses vibrato to a distracting level, he places too much emphasis on technical prowess over feels, whatever (neither of which I personally think). And as for songwriting, again it's impossible to objectively assess. Unless you're just talking about your own personal method of assessing which band is, for you, the greatest. Which seems a more likely premise. In which case, ignore me, it's late, I'm tired. DT became the greatest band in my world the minute Stream of Consciousness clicked nine years ago and all I can really go by is how their music makes me feel. Nothing ('xcept Wilson) has ever come close since <3

Sure it is. You're completely right. As you suggested later in your post, what I was positing there was my own personal method for determining my own opinion about a band's greatness. I think that it is not possible, within the current context of human understanding of music, to objectively state the superiority of one band, style or piece over another. I'm not willing to say that it will be for all of time impossible to do so, but right now, it is. Aesthetic judgements in the realm of music are, at this time, up to every individual to make for himself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:11:38 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd rather watch/listen to JP sing off-key (like in the old days) than lip-sync virtually everything.

I feel like I'm watching a fucking Megadeth DVD trying to enjoy Luna Park here.  Every time they show him with his exaggerated facial expressions suggestive of "I'm really singing guys, honest" it breaks my immersion and makes me want to just watch Enchant's Live At Last instead.  Aside from varied setlists, this is the only reason I ever find myself missing MP.  It may not matter as much to most fans, but this hugely affects the live experience for me to the point where I doubt I'll watch Luna Park again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:15:46 PM
A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:15:46 PM
A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:15:46 PM
A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."

I'm sure he knows he can't sing. The Wither demo is full of noticeable auto tune, and there's the Spirit Carries On demo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 18, 2013, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.

It would easily make my top 20. Amazing song, and it rivals Octavarium for me, although it's like comparing apples to oranges, because both succeed at different ends of the scale. It shouldn't get lumped with AFTR or TALW, because it's worlds ahead of both of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 18, 2013, 08:53:38 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 18, 2013, 08:48:31 PM


It would easily make my top 20. Amazing song, and it rivals Octavarium for me, although it's like comparing apples to oranges, because both succeed at different ends of the scale. It shouldn't get lumped with AFTR or TALW, because it's worlds ahead of both of them.

I love These Walls & The Answer Lies Within but I don't really like Along For The Ride.

I think that Along For The Ride is the only song on the album were the lumpy sounding snare is a big issue. I can deal with it on all the other songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on November 18, 2013, 08:56:47 PM
Rather fitting for this thread, but I think Along for the Ride is much better than These Walls and TALW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 18, 2013, 09:23:05 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.

These Walls is my #1  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on November 18, 2013, 09:25:11 PM
These Walls has never really clicked for me :-[
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 18, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Quote from: Lucien on November 18, 2013, 09:23:05 PM

These Walls is my #1  :P

:hifive:

Quote from: FlyingBIZKIT on November 18, 2013, 09:25:11 PM
These Walls has never really clicked for me :-[

 :angry:  :angry:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 18, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
These Walls = very good song. The purpose makes it much better. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 10:25:08 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:15:46 PM
A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."

I'm sure he knows he can't sing. The Wither demo is full of noticeable auto tune, and there's the Spirit Carries On demo.

Indeed, which begs the question "Why have him sing at all when you knew you were going to cut his vocals from the final mix from the beginning?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 18, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 10:25:08 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:18:33 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 07:15:46 PM
A lot of bands have the other mics too low in the mix when playing live. JP probably is singing along, you just can't hear him.

I think that was probably a decision made while mixing the DVD/BD.  It's not as though JP's vocals got lost somewhere between his mic and the soundboard.  Having him audible on the DVD/BD was an option.  I wish they'd opted for it to the detriment of "perfection."

I'm sure he knows he can't sing. The Wither demo is full of noticeable auto tune, and there's the Spirit Carries On demo.

Indeed, which begs the question "Why have him sing at all when you knew you were going to cut his vocals from the final mix from the beginning?"

I'm not sure DT had any say in the mixing of the live audio, or else JR would probably be louder.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 19, 2013, 12:01:43 AM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:11:38 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd rather watch/listen to JP sing off-key (like in the old days) than lip-sync virtually everything.

I feel like I'm watching a fucking Megadeth DVD trying to enjoy Luna Park here.  Every time they show him with his exaggerated facial expressions suggestive of "I'm really singing guys, honest" it breaks my immersion and makes me want to just watch Enchant's Live At Last instead.  Aside from varied setlists, this is the only reason I ever find myself missing MP.  It may not matter as much to most fans, but this hugely affects the live experience for me to the point where I doubt I'll watch Luna Park again.

This was already covered in another thread, so, to reiterate what I said there:

-There is no evidence that JP is lip-synching.
-He is most likely singing, but his mic is turned way down so you don't really hear him, especially since he is singing along with a triggered vocal that is at normal volume.  It's what Rush does when Alex Lifeson sings 99% of the time, and is most likely what DT did here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on November 19, 2013, 01:23:52 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 18, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: Onno on November 18, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 03:28:22 AM
Here's my contribution to the thread;

DT12 is DT's weakest album.

FTFM

onNO

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 19, 2013, 03:48:57 AM
Quote from: Lucien on November 18, 2013, 09:23:05 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 18, 2013, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 18, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Along for the Ride, to me, is in the same boat as These Walls and The Answer Lies Within: songs that aren't bad by any means and are enjoyable enough in the context of their respective albums, but very little about any of them is particularly memorable or noteworthy.

These Walls would make my DT Top 10.

These Walls is my #1  :P

Really?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- The Shaman-like and heavenly vocals in Bridges In The Sky are awesome
- On The Backs Of Angels has boring vocals
- Innocence Faded is a bit cheesy
- The keyboard solo at the start of 8VM is too lenghty
- The cookie-monster vocal part in A Nightmare To Remember is a bit ridiculous (although the song is in my top 3)
- Space-Dye Vest is an amazing song
 :xbones

Don't get me wrong, there is MUCH I love of DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 19, 2013, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- Innocence Faded is a bit cheesy
- The cookie-monster vocal part in A Nightmare To Remember is a bit ridiculous (although the song is in my top 3)
- Space-Dye Vest is an amazing song

I thought all of these were pretty much the general consensus? :P Innocent Faded is mega cheesy, and Space-Dye Vest is an incredible song!  :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 19, 2013, 01:46:54 PM
Quote from: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- Space-Dye Vest is an amazing song
I like you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 19, 2013, 01:49:41 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 05:31:33 PM
A good metric for greatest band could be what I suggested: musicianship and songwriting, perhaps measured over a period of time (to determine consistency). I think DT is the greatest band in all these respects. They have an exceedingly high level of musicianship as well as superb songwriting, and DT12 is every bit as excellent in these respects as Awake. All of these traits, they have more of than any other band of which I know. That's why I think they're the greatest band ever.

Consistency of amazing material released judged by all types of people, not only people who love DT or love prog metal (not biased opinions then)? Generally, Images, Scenes, Awake, Six Degrees and ToT or 8V maybe are the most well rated DT albums, the rest being rated not BAD but not very good too and, in my opinion, i agree with it as i don't think there's anything special in WDADU, FII, SC, BC, ADTOE or DT12 (not as a whole). Majority, people think that DT is above average but not nearly consistent as many other bands, but of course this might be very dumb way to see it as you can like more a style or album than a entire other band discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 19, 2013, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 19, 2013, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- Innocence Faded is a bit cheesy
- The cookie-monster vocal part in A Nightmare To Remember is a bit ridiculous (although the song is in my top 3)
- Space-Dye Vest is an amazing song

I thought all of these were pretty much the general consensus? :P Innocent Faded is mega cheesy, and Space-Dye Vest is an incredible song!  :heart


I never found IF to be cheesy.  hmmmmm
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on November 19, 2013, 01:41:09 PM
Quote from: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- Innocence Faded is a bit cheesy
- The cookie-monster vocal part in A Nightmare To Remember is a bit ridiculous (although the song is in my top 3)
- Space-Dye Vest is an amazing song

I thought all of these were pretty much the general consensus? :P Innocent Faded is mega cheesy, and Space-Dye Vest is an incredible song!  :heart

Oh okay, I'm fine with that :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 19, 2013, 02:27:08 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on November 19, 2013, 01:49:41 PM
Consistency of amazing material released judged by all types of people, not only people who love DT or love prog metal (not biased opinions then)? Generally, Images, Scenes, Awake, Six Degrees and ToT or 8V maybe are the most well rated DT albums, the rest being rated not BAD but not very good too and, in my opinion, i agree with it as i don't think there's anything special in WDADU, FII, SC, BC, ADTOE or DT12 (not as a whole). Majority, people think that DT is above average but not nearly consistent as many other bands, but of course this might be very dumb way to see it as you can like more a style or album than a entire other band discography.

There is not a single band in the world that has consistently amazing material as judged by all types of people. Not one. For one thing, there are plenty of classical snobs who would consider anything written by what we refer to when we talk about a band to be garbage.

A majority of people don't think ANYTHING about DT because a majority of people have never heard of them!

What I'm trying to say is that you should to stop acting like we can all get together and have a merry conversation and all agree on what the greatest bands are. You're not going to convince me that DT isn't the greatest by pointing to record sales and you're not going to convince someone who thinks the Beatles were terrible songwriters otherwise by pointing to the number of artists claiming them as influences.

Unless you have a method for judging music objectively (this means: not by majority opinion, since that has no basis independent of the judgements that inform these opinions), you should accept that the title of "greatest band" has the implicit suffix "to me."

Also: "an unbiased opinion" is a contradiction in terms. The opinions of prog fans are biased in favor of prog, but the opinions of listeners to top 40 radio are biased in favor of the pop music of the day. Thus is the nature of opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 19, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
There is not a single band in the world that has consistently amazing material as judged by all types of people.

All types of people i meant people that really care about music.
There's gonna be blind DT fans and haters of course but all bands have, the good is that there will be people who will honestly review it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 19, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 18, 2013, 04:43:54 AM
In my personal opinion, Dream Theater is one of the greatest, if not the single greatest, band of all time. I bet there are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me. I'm not saying you have to agree, but seriously, you're saying that it's "crazy" to even state such an opinion?

Sorry, i put my opinion together on this one. Crazy i meant not the music but other things like influency and creativity... this way, would be crazy to put DT in a higher place than bands like Beatles or Floyd.
But in the matter of what music we like more, anything can happen of course... isn't crazy to say DT is the greatest, it's a opinion anyway :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 19, 2013, 06:54:31 PM
The whole discussion about defining the greatness of a band is kind of a dead end. Even by success standards. I could argue that DT simply came out at the wrong time. I could argue that had they been around in the 1960s or 70s, they would've been the most successful band to have ever existed. Even if their music would have been different because they would have had different influences, the type of skill and musicianship, in combination with the type of creativity that they possess would probably have yielded something truly great that would've left bands like Zepplin in the dust. Instead, the time when they did come out was pretty bad for their genre of music, what with the proliferation of Grunge, and popular Metal evolving into the genres of Groove Metal and Nu Metal. One could easily blame those factors for the fact that DT never got the kind of popularity and recognition I think they rightfully deserved.
By the same basis, I could argue that had the musicians from Led Zepplin (or Beatles) been a couple generations late, coming out in early 90s, for example, their style of music would have probably never been really noticed. They came out in the hey day of Rock'n'Roll and Hard Rock, not to mention, before the time when things like tape trading or music downloading existed, so naturally they would've yielded higher album sales, because at the time, if people wanted to listen to their music, there would have been little choice.
And I'm not even going to bother talking about how the different decades, different sociological factors dictate how certain types of music might be received in those eras, because that would be a long and drawn out thesis.

Of course, it's all hypothetical speculation, and we could only guess, so it's fun at best to imagine "what if" but otherwise pointless. Bottom line, when it comes to a band's success and cultural impact, there are so many factors at play that it's simply unfair to say, "They were successful just because they were a truly great band. And DT isn't as great of a band, as proven by their success and impact."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on November 20, 2013, 07:49:43 PM
Quote from: Enalya on November 19, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
- The Shaman-like and heavenly vocals in Bridges In The Sky are awesome

So glad someone's saying this. I've heard a lot of people complain about how much they hate the intro, but I love it. It sets the scene for the rest of the song in a great, atmospheric way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on November 21, 2013, 06:00:14 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 19, 2013, 12:01:43 AM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on November 18, 2013, 07:11:38 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd rather watch/listen to JP sing off-key (like in the old days) than lip-sync virtually everything.

I feel like I'm watching a fucking Megadeth DVD trying to enjoy Luna Park here.  Every time they show him with his exaggerated facial expressions suggestive of "I'm really singing guys, honest" it breaks my immersion and makes me want to just watch Enchant's Live At Last instead.  Aside from varied setlists, this is the only reason I ever find myself missing MP.  It may not matter as much to most fans, but this hugely affects the live experience for me to the point where I doubt I'll watch Luna Park again.

This was already covered in another thread, so, to reiterate what I said there:

-There is no evidence that JP is lip-synching.
-He is most likely singing, but his mic is turned way down so you don't really hear him, especially since he is singing along with a triggered vocal that is at normal volume.  It's what Rush does when Alex Lifeson sings 99% of the time, and is most likely what DT did here.

I roughly stated my issues with that previously.

1. It's no surprise to the band that JP isn't a good singer.  They likely knew they would be cutting his mic from the final mix beforehand.
2. Even if 1. isn't the case, they certainly knew when putting together the DVD/BD that JP would be cut from the mix.  Why, then, must they cut to him virtually every single time he sings?  The production emphasizes his backing vocals, and they're nowhere to be heard.

If there was some sort of shock among the production team that his backing vocals turned out poor, then don't treat the DVD/BD audience like fools who don't realize he's nowhere in the mix by showing him every time he sings.

The fact that they show JP singing so much leads me to believe someone in production wanted to contribute to the illusion that we're actually hearing his voice on the DVD/BD, and shockingly, it's probably worked for some viewers.  This isn't as bad as modern Megadeth DVDs where every shred of singing has been recorded in a studio after the concert, but I find both approaches shatter my sense of immersion in the same way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on November 21, 2013, 06:33:46 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

For me, the new album goes from Surrender to Reason to Illumination Theory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 21, 2013, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 21, 2013, 06:33:46 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

For me, the new album goes from Surrender to Reason to Illumination Theory.

You also have BCSL in your top 5 so...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 21, 2013, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 21, 2013, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 21, 2013, 06:33:46 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

For me, the new album goes from Surrender to Reason to Illumination Theory.

You also have BCSL in your top 5 so...

That's completely relevant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 21, 2013, 08:07:36 PM
I was poking fun at his weird opinions. Bugger off, mate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fibreoptix on November 22, 2013, 01:18:04 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on November 21, 2013, 06:33:46 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on November 18, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Maybe it's about time for me also to make a contribution to this thread:

Along For The Ride is not only the worst ballad DT has ever done, its also one of/ if not THE worst song they have ever done.

For me, the new album goes from Surrender to Reason to Illumination Theory.

Since we're spouting controversial opinions on the subject... Along For the Ride is probably my second favourite song from DT12 after STR. An absolute delight to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 22, 2013, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.

I think both work so we because if the dichotomy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 22, 2013, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 22, 2013, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.

I think both work so we because if the dichotomy.

I think all the parts work so well because they are all awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 22, 2013, 12:19:31 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 22, 2013, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.

Pretty much yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 22, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 22, 2013, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 22, 2013, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.

I think both work so we because if the dichotomy.

I think all the parts work so well because they are all awesome.

I think your assessment works because it's correct.   ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 22, 2013, 12:49:49 PM
no u
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 02:47:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 22, 2013, 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2013, 11:20:04 AM
Here's one:

I think that the heavy parts of A Nightmare To Remember are better than the Beautiful Agony part.

I think both work so we because if the dichotomy.

I agree, but usually, all I ever read on this forum is people saying, first of all, that the song is too long and that the two parts don't fit together (which I disagree with), and second, that if it WAS separated, that Beautiful Agony would be an awesome stand alone song. Which is something no one ever says about the heavy bookends of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Estiui on November 23, 2013, 04:16:21 AM
This is not controversial at all but... A Nightmare To Remember and Repentance would be top 10 songs if each of them dropped out their 4-5 final minutes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on November 23, 2013, 05:05:36 AM
Quote from: Estiui on November 23, 2013, 04:16:21 AM
This is not controversial at all but... A Nightmare To Remember and Repentance would be top 10 songs if each of them dropped out their 4-5 final minutes.

I think it is pretty controversial. And I disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 23, 2013, 05:50:22 AM
Quote from: Estiui on November 23, 2013, 04:16:21 AM
This is not controversial at all but... A Nightmare To Remember and Repentance would be top 10 songs if each of them dropped out their 4-5 final minutes.

For ANTR it would have to cut out everything after Beautiful Agony ends.

I agree with Repentance.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 23, 2013, 10:22:42 AM
Quote from: Estiui on November 23, 2013, 04:16:21 AM
This is not controversial at all but... A Nightmare To Remember and Repentance would be top 10 songs if each of them dropped out their 4-5 final minutes.
Repentance would go from "really damn good" to "good but not great" if you did that to it. So no. Shame on you. Shhhhhhhhhhame on you.
Agree with ANTR though I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 23, 2013, 10:27:36 AM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theaters best albums! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Marion Crane on November 23, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
I really don't like DT12 at all
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 23, 2013, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 23, 2013, 10:27:36 AM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theaters best albums! :metal

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on November 23, 2013, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 23, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
I really don't like DT12 at all
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenfoul on November 23, 2013, 05:23:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 23, 2013, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 23, 2013, 10:27:36 AM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theaters best albums! :metal

 :tup
seconded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
 My 0.02 to this thread: I really like DT12 and like some of the songs in ADTOE a lot (can´t stand the ballads, sorry...), and yet I still think Mike Portnoy should return to the band some time in the future.

 Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on November 24, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.

Ministry is one DT song on a relatively small list of songs that I almost never skip. Not necessarily my favorite, but entertaining to listen to all the way through.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on November 24, 2013, 11:08:19 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on November 23, 2013, 03:10:27 PM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 23, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
I really don't like DT12 at all

Well, I like a couple songs but that's it. Compared to 'omg this album is flawless I love it so hard I've never felt this way about anything before and I'm going to listen to it on a daily, weekly or monthly basis for years and years on end'
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenfoul on November 24, 2013, 11:14:46 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on November 24, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.

Ministry is one DT song on a relatively small list of songs that I almost never skip. Not necessarily my favorite, but entertaining to listen to all the way through.
I don't listen to it anymore, but yeah I actually really really liked the ministry of lost souls. I mean I liked the entire systematic chaos album (basically) but I was really impressed by it.

In terms of DT12? Well the more I think about it the more peculiar it becomes, I view it as a really great album but there's no doubt it's on a completely different (and new) branch of DT. BTV, IT, FAS, TEI, AFTR, TBP, are the ones that I enjoy. I feel that I liked it more than ADOTE, but I just don't see even the songs that I like on DT12 getting as much rotational play in their catalog as one would expect for a new album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 24, 2013, 11:26:05 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on November 24, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.

Ministry is one DT song on a relatively small list of songs that I almost never skip. Not necessarily my favorite, but entertaining to listen to all the way through.

It's my favorite song on SC except for ITPOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: marlencrabapple on November 24, 2013, 11:43:12 AM
DT12 is easily in my top 3 albums at this point. I don't really know what the rest of the forum's standpoint on this is so it might be controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 24, 2013, 01:47:18 PM
TMOLS is awesome. Just another reason why Systematic Chaos is an amazing album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 24, 2013, 02:09:17 PM
*nvmd*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on November 24, 2013, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: Tick on November 23, 2013, 10:27:36 AM
I think Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theaters best albums! :metal

Its one of their better albums for sure :tup! Its just behind Awake/ SFAM/ IaW/ SDOIT for me. A lot of top 20 material on this album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lowdz on November 24, 2013, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 24, 2013, 11:26:05 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on November 24, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.

Ministry is one DT song on a relatively small list of songs that I almost never skip. Not necessarily my favorite, but entertaining to listen to all the way through.

It's my favorite song on SC except for ITPOE.

My favourite song on the only poor DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
I might have already done this but:

WDADU - no weak tracks
IAW - no weak tracks
Awake - I guess I wouldn't consider SDV weak, but I wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there.
FII - You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe are certainly average tracks, but aren't bad at all.
SFAM - no weak tracks
SDOIT - I rank this album highly, but Misunderstood is the weak link. It's just not that interesting.
TOT - As I Am has a boring chorus, but the rest of the song is pretty cool.
8VM - Never Enough is my least favorite on this album, but I wouldn't consider it weak anymore.
SC - Prophets of War. Just, no.
BCSL - Cheeseball Tough guy vox on ANTR, Boring AROP, Boring TBOT... That's half the album.
ADTOE - technically there aren't any weak tracks on this album, but the Images and Words similarities are too glaring to me, so that brings the album down.
DT - no weak tracks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on November 24, 2013, 03:32:03 PM
DT12 is slipping...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 24, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
I highly prefer the Budokan version of In The Name of God to the studio.
The louder keyboards and the incredible outro completely make up for LaBrie's poor performance imo.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 24, 2013, 07:59:44 PM
Quote from: Lowdz on November 24, 2013, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 24, 2013, 11:26:05 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on November 24, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: Parama on November 24, 2013, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 24, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Another controversial opinion might be the fact that I´ve grown to love The Ministry of the Lost Souls, which seems to get a lot of flak in the forum.
It's a stupidly underrated song here for whatever reason, yeah. I really like it, though. Not their greatest work or anything but it's way better than it gets credit for.

Ministry is one DT song on a relatively small list of songs that I almost never skip. Not necessarily my favorite, but entertaining to listen to all the way through.

It's my favorite song on SC except for ITPOE.

My favourite song on the only poor DT album.

I'd say SC is my least favorite CD of theirs as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 24, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
SC is an album that I just don't gravitate too.  I can't tell you why.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

ಠ_ಠ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 24, 2013, 08:33:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

ಠ_ಠ

Go listen to Bon Jovi.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on November 24, 2013, 08:36:11 PM
I would rather listen to Bon Jovi than WDADU. Every time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 24, 2013, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 08:33:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

ಠ_ಠ

Go listen to Bon Jovi.

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2013, 08:40:49 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 08:33:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

ಠ_ಠ

Go listen to Bon Jovi.

Go listen to WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 25, 2013, 02:44:45 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

Finally we agree on something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 25, 2013, 03:34:53 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 25, 2013, 02:44:45 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

Finally we agree on something.

I would agree with this too, terrific album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 25, 2013, 04:40:14 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 25, 2013, 02:44:45 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
WDADU - no weak tracks

Finally we agree on something.

It can't rain all the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 25, 2013, 10:12:00 AM
I like Haken's 1st 3 albums since 2010 better than DT's last 3 albums.  But, then again that probably isn't extremely controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on November 25, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:
I am very close to agreeing with that. Absolutely amazing song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enalya on November 25, 2013, 05:16:20 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 25, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:
I am very close to agreeing with that. Absolutely amazing song.

Close to indeed :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on November 25, 2013, 05:28:27 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:

Oh my god how could anyone believe this
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NunoTenniscourt on November 25, 2013, 06:53:08 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on November 25, 2013, 05:28:27 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:

Oh my god how could anyone believe this

Oh my God, how could you believe what you believe?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on November 25, 2013, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 25, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:
I am very close to agreeing with that. Absolutely amazing song.

I tend to agree. And I could say that about ACOS, Octavarium or Illumination Theory too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 25, 2013, 07:06:48 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 25, 2013, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on November 25, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Quote from: Xersiz on November 25, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
The Count of Tuscany is the best song ever written not only by DT but by any other band!  :angel: :angel:
I am very close to agreeing with that. Absolutely amazing song.

I tend to agree. And I could say that about ACOS, or Octavarium or Illumination Theory too.
FTFM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 25, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
No DT song I would declare my favorite song of all time but that's because of the two or three songs that regularly contest that spot sort of transcending the concept of "song" and becoming something so much more. The best DT song doesn't quite do that. Would have at least one DT song in my top ten songs ever though most definitely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 25, 2013, 07:17:29 PM
I seriously don't think I could ever define my favourite song of all time by any band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 25, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
TCOT is an excellent song, and it's the last song of theirs I completely enjoyed without caveat. Despite all the silly lyrics and the Portnoycore.

Or, to rephrase the above more in line for this thread: DT has not a truly excellent song since BCSL. A lot of "good" and "decent" after that, but nothing that makes you say "holy shit, this song alone makes the album".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 25, 2013, 08:20:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 25, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
TCOT is an excellent song, and it's the last song of theirs I completely enjoyed without caveat. Despite all the silly lyrics and the Portnoycore.

Or, to rephrase the above more in line for this thread: DT has not a truly excellent song since BCSL. A lot of "good" and "decent" after that, but nothing that makes you say "holy shit, this song alone makes the album".

That's because on DT12, every song makes the album. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 26, 2013, 01:08:05 AM
Quote from: wolfking on November 25, 2013, 07:17:29 PM
I seriously don't think I could ever define my favourite song of all time by any band.
This, but if I made a top 10 list, Space-Dye Vest would be there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on November 26, 2013, 03:52:30 AM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Despite my love for JP's work, i think he has become a little uninspired on the last albums. Samey riffs, samey solos, dedication to a more heavy metal sound, and dominance on DT songs.

I think he was a more interesting player when he mixed rock with metal and jazz elements on older albums, and his sound helped with this.
He is more of a metal player now, and i think he was more versatile in the past.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2013, 05:22:41 AM
Maybe he's just inspired more by Metal now. DT was always a Progressive Metal band. I feel like DT's "Metal" sound changed with the times. I mean, back in WDADU days, it was still Progressive Metal, but the Metal elements were derived from what was current at the time, the riff driven nature of bands like Metallica, combined with the virtuosity and melody of bands like Van Halen.
These days, Metal is dominated (sadly) by Metalcore bands like Trivium and stuff that's a bit heavier and colder, and I think DT's style reflects that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 26, 2013, 05:42:35 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 24, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
SC is an album that I just don't gravitate too.  I can't tell you why.
IF YOU CAN'T TELL US WHY DON'T SAY IT!!!! >:(


oh...sorry... Lost my mind for a second. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 26, 2013, 05:50:27 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 26, 2013, 05:42:35 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 24, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
SC is an album that I just don't gravitate too.  I can't tell you why.
IF YOU CAN'T TELL US WHY DON'T SAY IT!!!! >:(


oh...sorry... Lost my mind for a second. :facepalm:

 :lol

It just doesn't grab me like other DT albums.  I still play it but less frequent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 26, 2013, 05:53:33 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 26, 2013, 05:50:27 AM
Quote from: Tick on November 26, 2013, 05:42:35 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 24, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
SC is an album that I just don't gravitate too.  I can't tell you why.
IF YOU CAN'T TELL US WHY DON'T SAY IT!!!! >:(


oh...sorry... Lost my mind for a second. :facepalm:

 :lol

It just doesn't grab me like other DT albums.  I still play it but less frequent.


You liked to be touched by Dream Theater.... perv
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: moof on November 26, 2013, 06:33:56 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 25, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
TCOT is an excellent song, and it's the last song of theirs I completely enjoyed without caveat. Despite all the silly lyrics and the Portnoycore.

Or, to rephrase the above more in line for this thread: DT has not a truly excellent song since BCSL. A lot of "good" and "decent" after that, but nothing that makes you say "holy shit, this song alone makes the album".

I dunno, I think BAI, BITS and IT fall in to that category
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on November 26, 2013, 06:38:15 AM
I wish they'd take a breath and wait until they have something to say before they write any new music. I think they could use a break and think about their message a bit.

With the lyrics being the last piece in their writing, they too often feel that way to me too. Like an afterthought. Which doesn't sit at all well with the extreme, over-the-top, intense nature of their instrumental side.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on November 26, 2013, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on November 26, 2013, 06:38:15 AM
I wish they'd take a breath and wait until they have something to say before they write any new music. I think they could use a break and think about their message a bit.

With the lyrics being the last piece in their writing, they too often feel that way to me too. Like an afterthought. Which doesn't sit at all well with the extreme, over-the-top, intense nature of their instrumental side.
Love the lyrics. Happy they keep rolling along! :metal
Bring it on...MORE! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2013, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on November 26, 2013, 06:38:15 AM
I wish they'd take a breath and wait until they have something to say before they write any new music. I think they could use a break and think about their message a bit.

With the lyrics being the last piece in their writing, they too often feel that way to me too. Like an afterthought. Which doesn't sit at all well with the extreme, over-the-top, intense nature of their instrumental side.

Well, if you feel that way, it's one thing, but I don't see why you phrase it as "what THEY have to say", when it's JP writing 90% of the lyrics. Maybe if it was divided more evenly between JP, JLB and JM, you wouldn't feel that way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on November 26, 2013, 08:01:35 AM
Quote from: wolfking on November 25, 2013, 07:17:29 PM
I seriously don't think I could ever define my favourite song of all time by any band.

Me either. No wait... I forgot about Metropolis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 26, 2013, 08:50:00 AM
Quote from: moof on November 26, 2013, 06:33:56 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 25, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
TCOT is an excellent song, and it's the last song of theirs I completely enjoyed without caveat. Despite all the silly lyrics and the Portnoycore.

Or, to rephrase the above more in line for this thread: DT has not a truly excellent song since BCSL. A lot of "good" and "decent" after that, but nothing that makes you say "holy shit, this song alone makes the album".

I dunno, I think BAI, BITS and IT fall in to that category

Definitely not IT, that song doesn't flow well at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on November 26, 2013, 08:54:36 AM
Kinda have to agree. Without Portnoy there.. I dunno.. something epic was lost  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Marion Crane on November 26, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
I find ITPOE to be considerably better than Octavarium as far as the epics go
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2013, 10:44:20 AM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 26, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
I find ITPOE to be considerably better than Octavarium as far as the epics go

I think a lot of ITPOE is amazing, its just the middle section of pt 2 with the instrumental, and that middle vocal section that are weaker points for me that stop me ranking it higher.
But part 1 is great from beginning to end to me, as is part 2 up until after that second chorus, and then the moog reprise of the melody onwards. I think it's definitely an underrated epic, so it's nice to see some appreciation, although I'd still give the nod the Octavarium myself. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 26, 2013, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2013, 10:44:20 AM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 26, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
I find ITPOE to be considerably better than Octavarium as far as the epics go

I think a lot of ITPOE is amazing, its just the middle section of pt 2 with the instrumental, and that middle vocal section that are weaker points for me that stop me ranking it higher.
But part 1 is great from beginning to end to me, as is part 2 up until after that second chorus, and then the moog reprise of the melody onwards. I think it's definitely an underrated epic, so it's nice to see some appreciation, although I'd still give the nod the Octavarium myself. :)

After hearing  ITPOE Part 1, I thought we were in for a complete treat with Systematic Chaos.  From thereafter, a couple of the songs ruined that.  That being said, I agree with you regarding 8V beating out ITPOE.  Not by much for me though. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on November 26, 2013, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 26, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
I find ITPOE to be considerably better than Octavarium as far as the epics go
Once again, i agree with you :tup

For me, Octavarium takes off a little too slow, while ITPOE starts out with a bang and is amazing all the way through. With that being said, Octavarium is still awesome most of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Vipmetal on November 26, 2013, 01:02:50 PM
I don't really like much about The root of it all (E: The root of all evil) and Constant motion. Also Peruvian skies is overrated for what it is... But I'll try to play them and see if that changes my opinion...

And I really like You not me! 😃
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
Quote from: Marion Crane on November 26, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
I find ITPOE to be considerably better than Octavarium as far as the epics go

Maybe as far as awesomeness goes. But Octavarium does provide many more different moods, colors and styles throughout, not to mention vastly larger variety of musical ideas, and that's a large part of what I value about epics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 26, 2013, 01:27:36 PM
Quote from: Vipmetal on November 26, 2013, 01:02:50 PM
I don't really like much about The root of it all and Constant motion. Also Peruvian skies is overrated for what it is... But I'll try to play them and see if that changes my opinion...

And I really like You not me! 😃
CM is the only song of those three I dislike, the other two are pretty damn good songs.
Also it's The Root of All Evil not The Root of It All but whatever.
And YNM is underrated. Yeah. It's not good by any means, no, but it gets more crap than it deserves if you ask me. I still don't like it, just saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Vipmetal on November 26, 2013, 03:21:30 PM
I also hate the intro of Octavarium... 😔
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 26, 2013, 04:17:13 PM
I love the intro to Octavarium. I do agree with Marion though, ITPOE is a much better epic. It seems much more concise and never feels too long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on November 26, 2013, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 25, 2013, 07:59:13 PM
DT has not a truly excellent song since BCSL.

My take: DT has not a truly excellent song since Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 26, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
I seriously wish 8VM was longer.  With that long intro, this song had potential to go for like an hour in the vein of Green Carnation's Light of Day Day of Darkness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2013, 07:06:37 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 26, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
I seriously wish 8VM was longer.  With that long intro, this song had potential to go for like an hour in the vein of Green Carnation's Light of Day Day of Darkness.

If it kept changing and growing the way it does, for a whole hour, it would probably just feel like listening to an album with some recurring themes, like an Octavarium version of Scenes From A Memory... I'd be totally up for that!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 26, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2013, 07:06:37 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 26, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
I seriously wish 8VM was longer.  With that long intro, this song had potential to go for like an hour in the vein of Green Carnation's Light of Day Day of Darkness.

If it kept changing and growing the way it does, for a whole hour, it would probably just feel like listening to an album with some recurring themes, like an Octavarium version of Scenes From A Memory... I'd be totally up for that!

You are probably right.  I always liked the length, but that's one of the few songs I felt that could go for so much longer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 26, 2013, 08:29:53 PM
Quote from: wolfking on November 26, 2013, 05:40:55 PM
I seriously wish 8VM was longer.  With that long intro, this song had potential to go for like an hour in the vein of Green Carnation's Light of Day Day of Darkness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on November 26, 2013, 09:12:17 PM
I was listening to Luna Park today and I realized there was something from Portnoy that I actually miss: His background vocals on War Inside My Head. His voice complemented it well there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2013, 09:42:03 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 26, 2013, 01:27:36 PM
And YNM is underrated. Yeah. It's not good by any means, no, but it gets more crap than it deserves if you ask me. I still don't like it, just saying.

I agree entirely. The song is far too average to deserve such strong hate. :lol
When I put on FII, I usually end up getting to the prechorus before I realize "oh wait, I don't really like this song" and skip it. Until then, it's alright. It's not at all unlistenable, it's just not particularly good either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2013, 07:16:49 AM
I think You Not Me is a good song. It doesn't have anything special about it that makes it stand out in DT's otherwise amazingly stellar catalog, but I still think it's enjoyable to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 27, 2013, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.
I agree. Taking account the supreme production which hasn't been matched since, Derek's tasteful playing, it's easily among the best of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 27, 2013, 08:01:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.
I would miss the pre-chorus of YNM, that alone makes the song album-worthy. YOM is superior and good as it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 27, 2013, 08:01:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.
I would miss the pre-chorus of YNM, that alone makes the song album-worthy. YOM is superior and good as it is.

Even though I don't think YNM is bad, I wouldn't miss it, and it's the only song that weakens the album for me (I'm a bigger fan of it than most, I think).
And I actually don't think YOM is any better than YNM. Even though I'm not a fan of the song, I think the album version was also an improvement over the demo. I prefer the ill fitting poppier chorus of YNM over the more '90s alt-rock mediocrity of YOM's chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:23:12 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Agreed. I think a lot of the omitted tracks were omitted for good reason, and all of the changes to the music were for the better. The only demo edit I'd probably revert is keeping the extra verse in LITS, but that's very minor. And while I quite like the pre-chorus of Hollow Years, I think it flows a bit better without it, so right decision there too.
The only thing I would change about FII is dropping YNM. I wouldn't add back anything else either. Had it been a double album, it would have been a Load/Reload situation.

I prefer the original version of TAMP much more.  After seeing them play the original version live before the album even came out, I can say that IMHO it is far superior to the version we have on the CD.  I was extremely disappointed when the CD came out and heard that version.  I like how MP describes it in the Lifting Shadows book.   

I would have also dropped YNM for The Way It Used To Be.  YNM is okay, but it sounds like they were deliberately trying to make a Top 10 hit and it's a bit disappointing to know it probably wasn't a song the band would have normally written, especially considering the lyrical assistance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:30:11 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:23:12 AM
I prefer the original version of TAMP much more.  After seeing them play the original version live before the album even came out, I can say that IMHO it is far superior to the version we have on the CD.  I was extremely disappointed when the CD came out and heard that version.  I like how MP describes it in the Lifting Shadows book.   

Until very recently I would have agreed, but recently I realized I don't mind the album version of TAMP at all. The vibe always used to bother me, but not really any more.
And listening back to the demo version, the tempo plods a bit, and it feels a bit more same-y with the other demo tracks, and feels like it's lacking a little something. I'm not sure the album version rectifies that in a way I'm entirely happy with, but I do prefer it nonetheless. Judging by how the other songs turned out, maybe the demo version would have sounded a lot better with the FII production though.

Quote from: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:23:12 AM
I would have also dropped YNM for The Way It Used To Be.  YNM is okay, but it sounds like they were deliberately trying to make a Top 10 hit and it's a bit disappointing to know it probably wasn't a song the band would have normally written, especially considering the lyrical assistance.

The outside songwriter isn't a big deal at all to me. Sure, it wasn't the best fit for them, but it's not like he turned it from Metropolis into I Walk Beside You or anything. :lol He turned it from YOM to YNM. No loss!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on November 27, 2013, 08:37:36 AM
It is their biggest carreer mistake that The Way It Used To Be was not an album track.

Also Burning My soul gets too much shit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:44:06 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:30:11 AM
Until very recently I would have agreed, but recently I realized I don't mind the album version of TAMP at all. The vibe always used to bother me, but not really any more.
And listening back to the demo version, the tempo plods a bit, and it feels a bit more same-y with the other demo tracks, and feels like it's lacking a little something. I'm not sure the album version rectifies that in a way I'm entirely happy with, but I do prefer it nonetheless. Judging by how the other songs turned out, maybe the demo version would have sounded a lot better with the FII production though.

Exactly! 

Quote
The outside songwriter isn't a big deal at all to me. Sure, it wasn't the best fit for them, but it's not like he turned it from Metropolis into I Walk Beside You or anything. :lol He turned it from YOM to YNM. No loss!

Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 27, 2013, 08:45:23 AM
Not only does the FII version of Take Away My Pain destroy both the demo and the live OIAL versions, but it is overall a damn fine song, and one of the better tracks on Falling into Infinity. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on November 27, 2013, 08:37:36 AM
It is their biggest carreer mistake that The Way It Used To Be was not an album track.

Since this is the controversial opinion thread, I'm just going to be blunt about this :lol - I don't think any of the left off tracks from FII were very good, and I think some of the appeal is the nature of them. RTK is the best of the bunch for me, but I still wouldn't want it on the album. Everything else is samey '90s pop rock stuff to me, on the same level as YNM/YOM, and I'm just fine without DT having another U2 inspired track on an album. Controversial opinions!

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on November 27, 2013, 08:37:36 AM
Also Burning My soul gets too much shit.

It's not bad at all! It's a bit cheesy and bonehead, but I dig that, and it adds some diversity to the album that really benefits it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 27, 2013, 08:46:40 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 27, 2013, 08:45:23 AM
Not only does the FII version of Take Away My Pain destroy both the demo and the live OIAL versions, but it is overall a damn fine song, and one of the better tracks on Falling into Infinity. :hat

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:48:26 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:44:06 AM
Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   ;)

I'll take the latter by a slight margin, but as neither song worked for me either, no point splitting hairs here. :lol We'll just agree to drop it from the album altogether.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 27, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Absolutely. Same thing with the snare sound on IAW. Sure, a more natural snare sound would have been better, but I always thought people bought into MP's "omfg, the album is unlistenable! Prater ruined everything!!" And when he finally got his way and replaced the  original track with a real snare, it sounded like horse manure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:50:58 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 27, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
Quote from: Jaq on November 27, 2013, 07:43:02 AM
Nothing wrong with You Not Me at all, and I didn't actually know a DT who had a complaint about the song that wasn't "they worked with Desmond Child! SELL OUTS!" until the demos got out there.

In fact, if you want a controversial opinion: FII became a neglected classic after the fact, once the demos came out, because people bought into MP's "this was supposed to be a double album magnum opus!" Having listened to said demos, I think that most of the decisions made in production were in fact the correct ones. Especially taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Absolutely. Same thing with the snare sound on IAW. Sure, a more natural snare sound would have been better, but I always thought people bought into MP's "omfg, the album is unlistenable! Prater ruined everything!!" And when he finally got his way and replaced the  original track with a real snare, it sounded like horse manure.

I don't think MP has anything to do with people disliking the snare any more than MP being responsible for people not liking FII. It's a very '80s sounding snare that I can see a lot of people wouldn't like.

Not me however. I love the '80s snare! I enjoy it on the Firehouse albums too. :biggrin: Big part of the charm and uniqueness of IaW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 27, 2013, 08:53:28 AM
I think what was MP's doing was this notion that it utterly marred the whole album to the point of unlistenability. I always had the impression that once he started taking that stance publicly, you heard it a lot more on DTF.
And it's just the same thing with FII. It's an excellent album overall, and the fact that it managed to become this "born-again classic", despite official labeling as a "ruined album", shows that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 27, 2013, 08:53:28 AM
I think what was MP's doing was this notion that it utterly marred the whole album to the point of unlistenability.

Given that IaW is their most universally loved album, I think it's a pretty tiny minority (if anybody) that believes the snare drum makes the album unlistenable. I don't see that MP's opinion on it has influenced people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 09:07:22 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 27, 2013, 08:48:26 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on November 27, 2013, 08:44:06 AM
Neither song worked for me.  Though I would have taken the former by a slight margin.   ;)

I'll take the latter by a slight margin, but as neither song worked for me either, no point splitting hairs here. :lol We'll just agree to drop it from the album altogether.

(https://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/banana-dancing-with-mario-smiley-emoticon.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on December 05, 2013, 11:41:05 PM
Surrounded is currently my favorite DT song of them all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on December 05, 2013, 11:49:55 PM
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 06, 2013, 02:12:01 AM
Quote from: Implode on December 05, 2013, 11:49:55 PM
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 06, 2013, 02:24:43 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 05, 2013, 11:41:05 PM
Surrounded is currently my favorite DT song of them all.

Surrounded has been my favorite DT song since 2006. It's also the first DT song I ever heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: moof on December 06, 2013, 08:29:12 AM
Surrounded has always been my favourite song until it was taken over by Raise the Knife very recently
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 06, 2013, 12:40:50 PM
I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on December 06, 2013, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 06, 2013, 12:40:50 PM
I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.

I used to think it was a subpar song, but then I listened to a remastered version or with better quality or w/e and I loved it.

I think You Not Me is a good song, but You Or Me is so much better.

Also, not sure if this is that controversial, but Where Are You Now? Is one of the best FII demo songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on December 06, 2013, 01:18:50 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 06, 2013, 12:40:50 PM
I don't really hear in appeal in Raise the Knife. If anything it's a really mediocre song and the vocal melodies are kinda bad in my opinion.
Agreed. Its my least favorite song on Cleaning Out the Closet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on December 06, 2013, 01:59:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

Well you've certainly come to the right thread, sir.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: marlencrabapple on December 06, 2013, 02:35:49 PM
I guess not liking FII is an unpopular opinion now. The only thing I like about it are the drums and parts of a few songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 06, 2013, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

 :o Well that's a bold statement

Just like how I think These Walls is better than Octavarium, though both songs are brilliant
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 06, 2013, 03:39:53 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

Nope. Even in a matter of opinion such as this......this statement is flat out wrong. Sorry. Thanks for playing. Try again later.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 06, 2013, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 06, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
Raise The Knife is better than most songs on FII. Better than Trial of Tears.

 :o Well that's a bold statement

And I stand by it.  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 06, 2013, 03:59:09 PM
Quote from: marlencrabapple on December 06, 2013, 02:35:49 PM
I guess not liking FII is an unpopular opinion now. The only thing I like about it are the drums and parts of a few songs.
¨

I only like Peruvian Skies, Hell's Kitchen and Trial of Tears on FII. I can listen to Burning My Soul and Take Away My Pain but the rest bores me to tears.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 06, 2013, 04:33:03 PM
Maybe not a  controversial opinion, but rather a statement: I don't own either of the last two albums. When ADTOE came out I was somewhere in India or something and wouldn't have been able to buy the album for a loong while, so I ended up downloading it. By the time I was finally able to get it properly, it had slipped out of the rotation already. And when DT12 came out, I listened to the stream when it was available, and after that I already had lost interest again. Since then I put it on maybe 4 times, through Google Music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 06, 2013, 05:45:57 PM
You evil DT hating goat bastard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 06, 2013, 09:22:47 PM
Dream Theater's a great band, and I've had many great times throughout my life enjoying their compositions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 06, 2013, 10:25:40 PM
Controversial? 












???
Title: Don't feed the troll.
Post by: Implode on December 07, 2013, 02:56:16 AM
Prophets of War might be the best song on SC. ITPOE might beat it out barely, but it's definitely at least the second best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on December 07, 2013, 03:00:59 AM
POW is pretty good, but when it comes to the Muse ripoffs, Never Enough is way better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 08, 2013, 11:25:38 AM
Here's my controversial thought of the day-- Mike Mangini's drumming on ADToE sounds much much better to me than the drums on DT12. Not because his drumming is worse, but the drums are so bad-sounding on DT12 that it should not have had all that hype from the band about MM being "unleashed." I actually really enjoy his drumming on ADToE, even if it is a bit quiet at times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rude boy on December 08, 2013, 02:33:26 PM
I don't like Awake  :-[
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 08, 2013, 02:46:44 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 08, 2013, 11:25:38 AM
Here's my controversial thought of the day-- Mike Mangini's drumming on ADToE sounds much much better to me than the drums on DT12. Not because his drumming is worse, but the drums are so bad-sounding on DT12 that it should not have had all that hype from the band about MM being "unleashed." I actually really enjoy his drumming on ADToE, even if it is a bit quiet at times.

Technically, the drumming on ADTOE was miles ahead too.

Quote from: rude boy on December 08, 2013, 02:33:26 PM
I don't like Awake  :-[

I used to hate Awake when I was getting into DT. Only about two months back when I truly started listening to it has it started growing on me. It's one of my top 4 albums now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 08, 2013, 03:42:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 08, 2013, 02:46:44 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 08, 2013, 11:25:38 AM
Here's my controversial thought of the day-- Mike Mangini's drumming on ADToE sounds much much better to me than the drums on DT12. Not because his drumming is worse, but the drums are so bad-sounding on DT12 that it should not have had all that hype from the band about MM being "unleashed." I actually really enjoy his drumming on ADToE, even if it is a bit quiet at times.

Technically, the drumming on ADTOE was miles ahead too.
That's simply not true.

Mike's ADTOE sound was indeed good, especially the snare, although the mix wasn't kind to him. I wish they would mix the drums similarly to SC or BCSL (or anything else before, for that matter), the toms especially need that extra punch. Maybe JP had enough of that. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 04:54:13 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 08, 2013, 11:25:38 AM
Here's my controversial thought of the day-- Mike Mangini's drumming on ADToE sounds much much better to me than the drums on DT12. Not because his drumming is worse, but the drums are so bad-sounding on DT12 that it should not have had all that hype from the band about MM being "unleashed." I actually really enjoy his drumming on ADToE, even if it is a bit quiet at times.

I think his drums sound great. But I'm pretty sure you're by far not the only one who feels that way.


I don't know if this is so much of a controversial opinion as it is a controversial action, but I found a copy of the Limited Edition of Systematic Chaos today, and even though I already own a LE copy of it, I decided to buy a second one because I wanted one in mint condition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 05:12:53 PM
I don't like DT12. As much as I try... I just don't like it. I don't HATE it though... and I do enjoy FAS, BTV and sometimes IT... but overall... it's forgettable.  Also... Wither sounds like it would go great as a track on DT12. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 05:12:53 PM
I don't like DT12. As much as I try... I just don't like it.

That's what I said about Awake. Maybe you should just give it some time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 05:24:26 PM
It might work... but I've also been giving disk of SDOIT years and it still doesn't do much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on December 08, 2013, 05:40:09 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 05:24:26 PM
It might work... but I've also been giving disk of SDOIT years and it still doesn't do much.

if you mean disc one I totally agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 06:13:38 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 05:24:26 PM
It might work... but I've also been giving disk of SDOIT years and it still doesn't do much.

Still, never know until you try.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 08, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
oops...


I mean Disc 2
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 07:08:33 PM
While reading through lifting shadows I got to the the systematic chaos and I popped in the album for the first in years. Aside from PoW and repentance (snooze fest) the album is probably in the top 2 dt albums. It's probably the most concise album dt has made.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 08, 2013, 07:23:15 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 07:08:33 PM
It's probably the most concise album dt has made.

Does not compute.

I don't mean to insult you, because you're totally entitled to your opinion, but it literally doesn't make sense to me that someone could consider an album with TMOLS and The Reckoning to be 'concise'.   :lol 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.

In that case I'll wait until you're sober before I beat you up for this failure, buddy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
I knew I was going to get a lot of flak lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 08, 2013, 08:20:09 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on December 07, 2013, 03:00:59 AM
POW is pretty good, but when it comes to the Muse ripoffs, Never Enough is way better.

+1 and +1.  :coolio

On the PoW point, *ducks* I think it's better than Forsaken, TDEN and TMOLS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 08, 2013, 08:58:16 PM
Heretic and Slaughter of the Damned alone make ITPOE part 2 better than part 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.

By concise, you mean consistent, then? If so, then I agree. POW and Repentance included.

And yeah, SDOIT the title track does have quite a few stumbles. It's like pizza with toppings you don't like. There's still a lot of good stuff there, the dough, the sauce, the cheese, but it's hard to enjoy without having to pick out all the unwanted toppings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anguyen92 on December 08, 2013, 09:32:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.

By concise, you mean consistent, then? If so, then I agree. POW and Repentance included.

And yeah, SDOIT the title track does have quite a few stumbles. It's like pizza with toppings you don't like. There's still a lot of good stuff there, the dough, the sauce, the cheese, but it's hard to enjoy without having to pick out all the unwanted toppings.

That's why you request said pizza to have each slice be filled up with different toppings so that everyone could get their favorites in one slice.  For me, it's Solitary Shell with a little bit of The Test That Stumped Them All.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 09:48:57 PM
Quote from: Anguyen92 on December 08, 2013, 09:32:20 PM

That's why you request said pizza to have each slice be filled up with different toppings so that everyone could get their favorites in one slice.  For me, it's Solitary Shell with a little bit of The Test That Stumped Them All.

You can distribute the toppings onto different parts of the pizza and give everyone just the part they like, but trying to enjoy the entire pizza leaves quite a few parts that leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
SDOIT is one pizza. And it's all delicious. If I only eat one slice, I'm not getting all of the flavour.



Now I want some pizza. And to listen to SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on December 08, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
SDOIT is one hell of a marathon as far as songs go, which I think makes it harder to listen to sometimes, but I'm with Blob. It's all excellent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Length isn't the problem, consistency is. I usually listen to SFAM from beginning to end, happily, but SDOIT has weak spots right in the middle, which make it difficult to enjoy all the way through. The orchestra on Score improve those parts, though, thankfully.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Length isn't the problem, consistency is. I usually listen to SFAM from beginning to end, happily, but SDOIT has weak spots right in the middle, which make it difficult to enjoy all the way through. The orchestra on Score improve those parts, though, thankfully.

I can't listen to the Score version. The orchestra is too out of tune, and the live tempos on the lighter sections ruin them. :(
The studio version is perfect imo. No weak spots, and those 42 minutes have always flown by super fast for me. I've don't recall ever listening to individual parts of it. It would be like just watching a scene from a movie out of context. It needs to be one piece.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:24:05 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
I can't listen to the Score version. The orchestra is too out of tune, and the live tempos on the lighter sections ruin them. :(
The studio version is perfect imo. No weak spots, and those 42 minutes have always flown by super fast for me. I've don't recall ever listening to individual parts of it. It would be like just watching a scene from a movie out of context. It needs to be one piece.

Unless it's one of those movies that consists of different vignettes, like Waking Life or even Clerks. Sure, the bigger picture gives the proper perspective, but the vignettes are still enjoyable on their own.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 08, 2013, 10:31:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Length isn't the problem, consistency is. I usually listen to SFAM from beginning to end, happily, but SDOIT has weak spots right in the middle, which make it difficult to enjoy all the way through. The orchestra on Score improve those parts, though, thankfully.

I can't listen to the Score version. The orchestra is too out of tune, and the live tempos on the lighter sections ruin them. :(
The studio version is perfect imo. No weak spots, and those 42 minutes have always flown by super fast for me. I've don't recall ever listening to individual parts of it. It would be like just watching a scene from a movie out of context. It needs to be one piece.

I always hear people say this, but I've never noticed it. I suppose I'm either tone deaf, or so prog that I enjoy out of tune music. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 08, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 08, 2013, 10:31:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Length isn't the problem, consistency is. I usually listen to SFAM from beginning to end, happily, but SDOIT has weak spots right in the middle, which make it difficult to enjoy all the way through. The orchestra on Score improve those parts, though, thankfully.

I can't listen to the Score version. The orchestra is too out of tune, and the live tempos on the lighter sections ruin them. :(
The studio version is perfect imo. No weak spots, and those 42 minutes have always flown by super fast for me. I've don't recall ever listening to individual parts of it. It would be like just watching a scene from a movie out of context. It needs to be one piece.

I always hear people say this, but I've never noticed it. I suppose I'm either tone deaf, or so prog that I enjoy out of tune music. :lol

My ear blows picking out pitches/notes and what not. But it is very obvious, to me, if you listen to the first few bars of the studio Overture, then the Score Overture.

That said, there are pieces here and there I prefer about both versions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 09, 2013, 04:04:33 AM
Quote from: CableX 1814 on December 08, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 08, 2013, 10:31:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:21:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Length isn't the problem, consistency is. I usually listen to SFAM from beginning to end, happily, but SDOIT has weak spots right in the middle, which make it difficult to enjoy all the way through. The orchestra on Score improve those parts, though, thankfully.

I can't listen to the Score version. The orchestra is too out of tune, and the live tempos on the lighter sections ruin them. :(
The studio version is perfect imo. No weak spots, and those 42 minutes have always flown by super fast for me. I've don't recall ever listening to individual parts of it. It would be like just watching a scene from a movie out of context. It needs to be one piece.

I always hear people say this, but I've never noticed it. I suppose I'm either tone deaf, or so prog that I enjoy out of tune music. :lol

My ear blows picking out pitches/notes and what not. But it is very obvious, to me, if you listen to the first few bars of the studio Overture, then the Score Overture.

That said, there are pieces here and there I prefer about both versions.
Besides that, the most obvious example is in WIMH @ 13:30. There, the orchestra is like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUsbtUrXHk. How can professional musicians get away with something like that?

Listening to that version also makes me realize how much I miss MP's backing vocals, James doing it with himself while JP lipsyncs makes me uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 09, 2013, 06:28:56 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.

By concise, you mean consistent, then? If so, then I agree. POW and Repentance included.

And yeah, SDOIT the title track does have quite a few stumbles. It's like pizza with toppings you don't like. There's still a lot of good stuff there, the dough, the sauce, the cheese, but it's hard to enjoy without having to pick out all the unwanted toppings.

Yes, SC is the most consistent album they have. The first disk of SDOIT is very consistent as well, honestly I think the weakest part of SDOIT is the title track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 09, 2013, 06:31:35 AM
Six Degrees the song is perfect. Overture might drag slightly, but other than that, it's a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 09, 2013, 06:40:20 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 09, 2013, 06:31:35 AM
Six Degrees the song is perfect. Overture might drag slightly, but other than that, it's a masterpiece.

That's controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 09, 2013, 06:45:47 AM
Considering all the negative opinions I've seen over the last seven years, yeah it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 09, 2013, 06:50:22 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 09, 2013, 06:45:47 AM
Considering all the negative opinions I've seen over the last seven years, yeah it is.

It's brilliant.  Top 10 song for me.  It does a great job of incorporating just about every style DT uses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 09, 2013, 07:00:36 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 09, 2013, 06:50:22 AM
Quote from: Zook on December 09, 2013, 06:45:47 AM
Considering all the negative opinions I've seen over the last seven years, yeah it is.

It's brilliant.  Top 10 song for me.  It does a great job of incorporating just about every style DT uses.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 09, 2013, 09:18:54 AM
Six Degrees as a song doesn't do anything for me.

I only like Overture, About to Crash + Reprise and Losing Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 09:47:18 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 09, 2013, 09:18:54 AM
Six Degrees as a song doesn't do anything for me.

I only like Overture, About to Crash + Reprise and Losing Time.

I also like Solitary Shell. War inside my head is okay, but then TTTSTA and GK really drag the whole thing down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 09, 2013, 11:20:34 AM
My only complaint is that they split it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 09, 2013, 11:21:47 AM
Why would that bother you? You can still listen to it as one track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
SDOIT is one pizza. And it's all delicious. If I only eat one slice, I'm not getting all of the flavour.



Now I want some pizza. And to listen to SDOIT.


If SDOIT were a pizza... disc 2 would be the half that the dude making the pizza decided to sneeze on, coat with anchovies and olives (even though the other half is meat lovers) and then leave half way in the oven so that half gets overcooked making it impossible to digest properly.



Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 09, 2013, 11:46:20 AM
Are you just purposefully trying to upset Blob now?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 09, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
SDOIT is one pizza. And it's all delicious. If I only eat one slice, I'm not getting all of the flavour.



Now I want some pizza. And to listen to SDOIT.


If SDOIT were a pizza... disc 2 would be the half that the dude making the pizza decided to sneeze on, coat with anchovies and olives (even though the other half is meat lovers) and then leave half way in the oven so that half gets overcooked making it impossible to digest properly.



Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

I don't like stuffed crust...penguin fucker. 

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:51:42 AM
-gasp-
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 09, 2013, 12:06:30 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 09, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
SDOIT is one pizza. And it's all delicious. If I only eat one slice, I'm not getting all of the flavour.



Now I want some pizza. And to listen to SDOIT.


If SDOIT were a pizza... disc 2 would be the half that the dude making the pizza decided to sneeze on, coat with anchovies and olives (even though the other half is meat lovers) and then leave half way in the oven so that half gets overcooked making it impossible to digest properly.



Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

I don't like stuffed crust...penguin fucker. 

 :biggrin:

I've been meaning to try a stuffed crust pizza again sometime. I remember years and years ago I tried it out and it was disgusting, the whole pizza was. I feel like maybe I should be it another shot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

The problem with the second half is that someone spilled dishwashing soap on the last slice, and when I went in to complain about it, they tried to pass it off as free 'samples'.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 09, 2013, 12:17:18 PM
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 09, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

The problem with the second half is that someone spilled dishwashing soap on the last slice, and when I went in to complain about it, they tried to pass it off as free 'samples'.

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

The problem with the second half is that someone spilled dishwashing soap on the last slice, and when I went in to complain about it, they tried to pass it off as free 'samples'.
Oh snap
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 09, 2013, 06:20:30 PM
Here's one that will never be truly resolved... There's no way to me that Six Degrees is a single song (even if DT call it one). A suite, definitely, but Six Degrees is as much a song as SFAM is as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 06:49:02 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 09, 2013, 06:20:30 PM
Here's one that will never be truly resolved... There's no way to me that Six Degrees is a single song (even if DT call it one). A suite, definitely, but Six Degrees is as much a song as SFAM is as far as I'm concerned.

SFAM is an awesome song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2013, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: Anguyen92 on December 08, 2013, 09:32:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 08, 2013, 09:08:17 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 08, 2013, 08:07:49 PM
To me every dt album has had it's weak points, SC has had the fewest when I look back along with SDOIT (SDOIT the song is rubbish for most part). I'm fairly drunk but I'll get into this more tomrrow.

By concise, you mean consistent, then? If so, then I agree. POW and Repentance included.

And yeah, SDOIT the title track does have quite a few stumbles. It's like pizza with toppings you don't like. There's still a lot of good stuff there, the dough, the sauce, the cheese, but it's hard to enjoy without having to pick out all the unwanted toppings.

That's why you request said pizza to have each slice be filled up with different toppings so that everyone could get their favorites in one slice.  For me, it's Solitary Shell with a little bit of The Test That Stumped Them All.

Ah, but DT hosts a big pizza party and you don't get to choose what toppings are on it. It's DT pizza though, so while some of the toppings can be less than amazing, DAT SAUCE AND DAT CHEESE.

:drool:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 09, 2013, 07:35:06 PM
Ah, but DT hosts a big pizza party and you don't get to choose what toppings are on it. It's DT pizza though, so while some of the toppings can be less than amazing, DAT SAUCE AND DAT CHEESE.

:drool:

Yeah, I can't deny this. And us, real gourmands, know that it's just the right amount of cheese. Even though some might think certain parts are too cheesy, they are wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 09, 2013, 07:49:28 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

The problem with the second half is that someone spilled dishwashing soap on the last slice, and when I went in to complain about it, they tried to pass it off as free 'samples'.
Sounds like this restaurant will never be open again
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Grizz on December 09, 2013, 07:49:28 PM
Sounds like this restaurant will never be open again

I hear they used dry heat to cook their pizza.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2013, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Grizz on December 09, 2013, 07:49:28 PM
Sounds like this restaurant will never be open again

I hear they used dry heat to cook their pizza.

/thread
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 10:04:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 09, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Grizz on December 09, 2013, 07:49:28 PM
Sounds like this restaurant will never be open again

I hear they used dry heat to cook their pizza.


:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 09, 2013, 11:06:18 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on December 09, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 08, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
SDOIT is one pizza. And it's all delicious. If I only eat one slice, I'm not getting all of the flavour.



Now I want some pizza. And to listen to SDOIT.


If SDOIT were a pizza... disc 2 would be the half that the dude making the pizza decided to sneeze on, coat with anchovies and olives (even though the other half is meat lovers) and then leave half way in the oven so that half gets overcooked making it impossible to digest properly.



Now if you want the proper way to make a pizza... look at Awake. Both halves are delicous. And the second half even has stuffed crust! Who doesn't love stuffed crust??? Only communists.

Awake is like eating a decent pizza, but then halfway, someone drops the box on the ground and ruins the pizza, and whines for half an hour about the pizza.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 09, 2013, 11:13:38 PM
Well, ..... um.....












.....












:symphonyx:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on December 09, 2013, 11:37:40 PM
Awake is way better than any pizza I've ever eaten.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2013, 11:56:15 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 09, 2013, 11:37:40 PM
Awake is way better than any pizza I've ever eaten.

You haven't tried enough.















:vomitard:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 10, 2013, 06:10:19 AM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 09, 2013, 11:37:40 PM
Awake is way better than any pizza I've ever eaten.

Come to NY.    ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 10, 2013, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 10, 2013, 06:10:19 AM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 09, 2013, 11:37:40 PM
Awake is way better than any pizza I've ever eaten.

Come to New Haven County, CT.    ;)
FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 10, 2013, 10:32:30 AM
I really want some pizza now.
Also Awake and SDOIT are both good pizzas, just that someone forgot the sauce on the second half of SDOIT so it's just cheesy bread and you'd rather eat the first half of the pizza with the sauce on it and leave the cheesy bread for someone else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 10, 2013, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: Parama on December 10, 2013, 10:32:30 AM
I really want some pizza now.
Also Awake and SDOIT are both good pizzas, just that someone forgot the sauce on the second half of SDOIT so it's just cheesy bread and you'd rather eat the first half of the pizza with the sauce on it and leave the cheesy bread for someone else.
Only one piece on the first half tastes any good IMO, the rest all have rather bizarre toppings.

Now, WDADU is an okay pizza but some guy named Charlie spat all over it and a sound engineer threw it down a tunnel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enlil36 on December 10, 2013, 11:13:02 AM
6:24 - 7:03 from Sacrificed Sons is better than the whole Octavarium album,even the title track.
Now that's controversial! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 10, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
Quote from: Grizz on December 10, 2013, 11:05:33 AM
Only one piece on the first half tastes any good IMO, the rest all have rather bizarre toppings.

Now, WDADU is an okay pizza but some guy named Charlie spat all over it and a sound engineer threw it down a tunnel.
One piece has an undercooked middle but the last few bites are especially tasty. One piece has too much cheese on it and it makes it taste a bit less good. One piece is pretty good but the crust has really hot pepper sprinkled all over it. One piece starts off tasting delicious but it gets boring the more of it you eat. One piece was cut wrong and is smaller than the rest but is the only piece you enjoy every bite of.

I really want some pizza.
Also your WDADU pizza is great  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on December 10, 2013, 11:41:11 AM
I agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 10, 2013, 11:53:32 AM
Quote from: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.

Good one... I started liking it even more when James revealed the subject matter. It gives me this haunting chill when I listen to the words now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on December 10, 2013, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.

It's amazing, and probably the most heartfelt performance from James. I really love it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 11, 2013, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.

Yeah, Vacant is awesome! 
And with Stream Of Consciousness it makes the best "2-song run"  by Dream Theater... That might actually be controversial :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rude boy on December 11, 2013, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 10, 2013, 11:53:32 AM
Quote from: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.

Good one... I started liking it even more when James revealed the subject matter. It gives me this haunting chill when I listen to the words now.

What is the subject matter? I also like the song, but I have no clue what it's about
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2013, 02:35:00 AM
Quote from: rude boy on December 11, 2013, 02:15:50 AM

What is the subject matter? I also like the song, but I have no clue what it's about

It's about his daughter and how she unexpectedly lapsed into a coma. She turned out okay, obviously, but I imagine when he wrote it, it was a very dark time for him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on December 11, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
My major nitpick with DT comes in Wait for Sleep. It's in the part when James says "She has too much pride to pull the sheets above her head, so quietly she lays and waits for Slee-". The Sleep word seems like it was cut out in mid air. In the live versions James extends the Sleep word, so I can't understand why did they cut it in mid air. It's a petty complaint and I feel really nitpicky, but it somehow bothers me. Not like it ruins the song or anything though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: moof on December 12, 2013, 07:15:18 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 11, 2013, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: Ħ on December 10, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but Vacant is one of the best DT ballads...possibly the best.

Yeah, Vacant is awesome! 
And with Stream Of Consciousness it makes the best "2-song run"  by Dream Theater... That might actually be controversial :p

Interesting choice. Hell's Kitchen and Lines in the Sand for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 12, 2013, 08:27:55 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 11, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
My major nitpick with DT comes in Wait for Sleep. It's in the part when James says "She has too much pride to pull the sheets above her head, so quietly she lays and waits for Slee-". The Sleep word seems like it was cut out in mid air. In the live versions James extends the Sleep word, so I can't understand why did they cut it in mid air. It's a petty complaint and I feel really nitpicky, but it somehow bothers me. Not like it ruins the song or anything though.

Damn you. Now I notice it everytime ._.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Xersiz on December 12, 2013, 11:18:01 AM
Last 4 Dream Theater albums are the best of them all! Yep,I said that,no way DT could have done songs like ITPOE,TCOT,ANTR,TMOLS,BITS,BAI,IT,TBP (i can count so much more but you got me) in their I&W era and i think those songs are their best!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on December 12, 2013, 01:26:00 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 11, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
My major nitpick with DT comes in Wait for Sleep. It's in the part when James says "She has too much pride to pull the sheets above her head, so quietly she lays and waits for Slee-". The Sleep word seems like it was cut out in mid air. In the live versions James extends the Sleep word, so I can't understand why did they cut it in mid air. It's a petty complaint and I feel really nitpicky, but it somehow bothers me. Not like it ruins the song or anything though.

That's it? That's your major nitpick with DT? That they kinda cut off a word in one song that you still like?   :lol 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 12, 2013, 02:35:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 12, 2013, 08:27:55 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 11, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
My major nitpick with DT comes in Wait for Sleep. It's in the part when James says "She has too much pride to pull the sheets above her head, so quietly she lays and waits for Slee-". The Sleep word seems like it was cut out in mid air. In the live versions James extends the Sleep word, so I can't understand why did they cut it in mid air. It's a petty complaint and I feel really nitpicky, but it somehow bothers me. Not like it ruins the song or anything though.

Damn you. Now I notice it everytime ._.

Nah.  James completes the word, he just says it very quickly so it sounds like it's cut off, but it's not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Here we go:

Train Of Thought Is easily the worst album Dream Theater ever did.

When Dream And Day Unite is top 5.

There is not a single bad song on Falling Into Infinity.

The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.

But it sounds nothing like either one of those two bands.  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 12, 2013, 05:48:27 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Here we go:

Train Of Thought Is easily the worst album Dream Theater ever did.

When Dream And Day Unite is top 5.

There is not a single bad song on Falling Into Infinity.

The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.

I agree with none of these. 

So, well done.   :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on December 12, 2013, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Here we go:

Train Of Thought Is easily the worst album Dream Theater ever did.

Only one I completely agree with... almost. WDaDU is the only thing stopping it from being bottom of the bottom though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 12, 2013, 06:04:17 PM
Here's an opinon not so much about Dream Theater, but of their fans.

If you listen to Dream Theater and can not apprciate both prog and metal you are an idiot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 12, 2013, 06:04:17 PM
Here's an opinon not so much about Dream Theater, but of their fans.

If you listen to Dream Theater and can not apprciate both prog and metal you are an idiot.

While I wouldn't go as fat as to call anyone an idiot, those who can't appreciate both sides of Dream Theater are really only experiencing one side of the coin, and only appreciate half the greatness that this band really is. Which is unfortunate, because they really should look at the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 12, 2013, 06:35:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 12, 2013, 06:04:17 PM
Here's an opinon not so much about Dream Theater, but of their fans.

If you listen to Dream Theater and can not apprciate both prog and metal you are an idiot.

While I wouldn't go as fat as to call anyone an idiot, those who can't appreciate both sides of Dream Theater are really only experiencing one side of the coin, and only appreciate half the greatness that this band really is. Which is unfortunate, because they really should look at the bigger picture.

Oh you. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on December 12, 2013, 06:49:12 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 12, 2013, 01:26:00 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 11, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
My major nitpick with DT comes in Wait for Sleep. It's in the part when James says "She has too much pride to pull the sheets above her head, so quietly she lays and waits for Slee-". The Sleep word seems like it was cut out in mid air. In the live versions James extends the Sleep word, so I can't understand why did they cut it in mid air. It's a petty complaint and I feel really nitpicky, but it somehow bothers me. Not like it ruins the song or anything though.

That's it? That's your major nitpick with DT? That they kinda cut off a word in one song that you still like?   :lol
Yes. Not much of a nitpicker, you know :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 12, 2013, 06:56:31 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Here we go:

Train Of Thought Is easily the worst album Dream Theater ever did.

When Dream And Day Unite is top 5.

There is not a single bad song on Falling Into Infinity.

The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.
no no no yes+badly worded
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.

But it sounds nothing like either one of those two bands.  ???

That main riff is total stop start stop nu metal. Obviously Petrucci plays better than any of those bands, so maybe a better sound alike is Sepultura's nu metal era. Think "Roots Bloody Roots", total garbage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
That main riff is total stop start stop nu metal. Obviously Petrucci plays better than any of those bands, so maybe a better sound alike is Sepultura's nu metal era. Think "Roots Bloody Roots", total garbage.

Well, that's just the riff. Everything else about the song, the instrumental breakdown, the mystical lyrics, the sludgy outro doesn't remind me of Nu Metal at all. Either way, TDEN is an awesome song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 12, 2013, 08:35:51 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.

But it sounds nothing like either one of those two bands.  ???

That main riff is total stop start stop nu metal. Obviously Petrucci plays better than any of those bands, so maybe a better sound alike is Sepultura's nu metal era. Think "Roots Bloody Roots", total garbage.

I can see you're going to be around a long time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on December 12, 2013, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
That main riff is total stop start stop nu metal. Obviously Petrucci plays better than any of those bands, so maybe a better sound alike is Sepultura's nu metal era. Think "Roots Bloody Roots", total garbage.

Well, that's just the riff. Everything else about the song, the instrumental breakdown, the mystical lyrics, the sludgy outro doesn't remind me of Nu Metal at all. Either way, TDEN is an awesome song.
While I don't like TDEN and think the riff is sludgy and too much ass-and-ballsy I think it's miles more complex and elaborated than the ones found in bands like Korn or Slipknot, IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 12, 2013, 09:13:07 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on December 12, 2013, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 07:27:46 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
That main riff is total stop start stop nu metal. Obviously Petrucci plays better than any of those bands, so maybe a better sound alike is Sepultura's nu metal era. Think "Roots Bloody Roots", total garbage.

Well, that's just the riff. Everything else about the song, the instrumental breakdown, the mystical lyrics, the sludgy outro doesn't remind me of Nu Metal at all. Either way, TDEN is an awesome song.
While I don't like TDEN and think the riff is sludgy and too much ass-and-ballsy I think it's miles more complex and elaborated than the ones found in bands like Korn or Slipknot, IMHO.

If it sounds like any nu-metal band, that band would be Mudvayne.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on December 12, 2013, 09:40:46 PM
I guess I need to listen to more nu metal. Apparently I'm missing out on some good music. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 12, 2013, 09:43:56 PM
Though most prog fans disagree, I think a fair amount of nu-metal is quite good.

Particularly Linkin Park.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 12, 2013, 09:49:18 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 12, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
Here we go:

The Dark Eternal Night is beyond terrible, it's like Dream Theater trying to be some god awful nu metal band like Korn or Slipknot.

I agree but Slipknot is not that bad.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 09:56:30 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 12, 2013, 09:49:18 PM
I agree but Slipknot is not that bad.  :lol

Honestly, while I'm not a fan of Slipknot, I wouldn't even throw them into the Nu Metal category. I mean, Nu Metal used a lot of influences brought from Rap and Hip-Hop, and Slipknot is definitely not that.
And speaking of which, if you want to blame DT of Nu Metal influences, maybe The Glass Prison and that record scratching transition should be looked at before anything else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on December 13, 2013, 02:06:40 AM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 09, 2013, 11:37:40 PM
Awake is way better than any pizza I've ever eaten.

(https://i.imgur.com/dCO4LeC.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on December 14, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2013, 09:56:30 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 12, 2013, 09:49:18 PM
I agree but Slipknot is not that bad.  :lol

And speaking of which, if you want to blame DT of Nu Metal influences, maybe The Glass Prison and that record scratching transition should be looked at before anything else.

Yeah, the record scratch, which is awesome.

I really don't think TDEN sounds like Nu Metal at all. It's really modern-sounding technical metal for sure. Stuff on Awake like Lie and Caught in a Web is closer to Nu Metal than that, and even those are clearly prog-influenced, and more 90s-sounding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 14, 2013, 09:17:35 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 12, 2013, 09:43:56 PM
Though most prog fans disagree, I think a fair amount of nu-metal is quite good.

Particularly Linkin Park.
Linkin Park practically ruined my childhood. All of my friends were into them, thus every house party was plagued by their music, making me miserable. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on December 14, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
Not their fault, Linkin Part is awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 14, 2013, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.

How is that a 'bad' thing? Are you looking for a more "rough" version? For me, I like the fact they can do that. I don't see MIT killing the dynamicness of the performance....in fact I think their ability to essentially play in sink with their studio version is further validation of I their virtuosity. I don't think most bands would be able to stay in sink like that on such complex songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 14, 2013, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 14, 2013, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.

How is that a 'bad' thing? Are you looking for a more "rough" version? For me, I like the fact they can do that. I don't see MIT killing the dynamicness of the performance....in fact I think their ability to essentially play in sink with their studio version is further validation of I their virtuosity. I don't think most bands would be able to stay in sink like that on such complex songs.

I'm pretty sure a click track makes that rather easy to do.  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 14, 2013, 10:14:26 AM
googling for images of DT in a sink now thanks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 14, 2013, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.

How is that a 'bad' thing? Are you looking for a more "rough" version? For me, I like the fact they can do that. I don't see MIT killing the dynamicness of the performance....in fact I think their ability to essentially play in sink with their studio version is further validation of I their virtuosity. I don't think most bands would be able to stay in sink like that on such complex songs.

I'm not sure whether you understand this correctly, let me go into more detail.
I don't know how much MP did it when he was still in DT, but starting with MM's live performances, MM has a constant click track in his in-ear monitor that forces his playing speed to be exactly what the album version is. MM can't speed up or slow down even if he wants to; he has to adhere to the click track, otherwise the samples, canned backing vocals etc will appear at the wrong times.
I'm saying that that forceful adhesion to a click track robs their performances of dynamicness.

EDIT: 6:00 is the same thing, just tried it. Played to album click as well.
EDIT2: According to his FAQ (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/20.aspx#483), MP never used click tracks on stage. And I think that showed (in MP's favor).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 14, 2013, 11:19:03 AM
I've seen many shows by bands that use click and backing tracks, but they've been just as great as gigs by bands that don't play to a click track, so it doesn't bother me. I do think it's unnecessary to use a click for songs with zero backing tracks, but judging by LALP DT's performances haven't gone downhill because of the consistent tempos. In fact, I think MP played some songs unnecessarily fast (see: Disappear @ Budokan). Maybe that counts as a controversial opinion? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 14, 2013, 11:57:32 AM
Quote from: ? on December 14, 2013, 11:19:03 AM
I've seen many shows by bands that use click and backing tracks, but they've been just as great as gigs by bands that don't play to a click track, so it doesn't bother me. I do think it's unnecessary to use a click for songs with zero backing tracks, but judging by LALP DT's performances haven't gone downhill because of the consistent tempos. In fact, I think MP played some songs unnecessarily fast (see: Disappear @ Budokan). Maybe that counts as a controversial opinion? :lol

Exactly, or the insane speed gigantour version of The Glass Prison. Some songs can benefit sped up a bit, but others just don't.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
I dunno, for me that's one of the reasons to a actually see a band live, so that I can experience the mood the band is at a given day. The tempo variations are one of the major aspects of that.
For example, I remember when on some DT gig they had a hard curfew to observe, and MP decided to just play the last song in double time (I think it was Take the Time). That's the kind of spontaneity you won't see with clicks. Nor can any of the others decide on a whim to extend a section of theirs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 14, 2013, 12:24:23 PM
I get what you're saying about click tracks Rumborak, and I can see how that could bother/be a turn off to a certain population of DTs fans. I personally like the precision....and was bothered at times by MP's variation from the album tempo.....and, the frequency in which he'd alter bass drum patterns and fills that deviated from what was recorded.

Some people like that style of playing.....I happen to like hearing a song played live to the tempo and using the 'music' they recorded. I still can enjoy the live experience knowing they are going to stay in sync the whole time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 12:38:44 PM
I would even argue that songs are *meant* to be played faster live than on the recording. Every band I've played in, and every band I've seen, has done so. I think it's just the adrenaline rush of the moment that gets you into that mood, and I would argue that, if that's the mood, the music should reflect that. Case in point, when MM plays the 6:00 intro fill on LALP, I actually thought he was playing it *slower* than on the record, exactly because of that live phenomenon. Playing the album speed seemed wrongly slow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 14, 2013, 01:26:49 PM
Agree with Rumborak here. I really don't like the way DT sounds live with the click tracks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 14, 2013, 04:41:43 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on December 14, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
Stuff on Awake like Lie and Caught in a Web is closer to Nu Metal than that

I'm surprised no one has responded to this.  I don't hear any nu metal vibes in those songs at all.  Am I the oddball?   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on December 14, 2013, 05:09:05 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 14, 2013, 04:41:43 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on December 14, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
Stuff on Awake like Lie and Caught in a Web is closer to Nu Metal than that

I'm surprised no one has responded to this.  I don't hear any nu metal vibes in those songs at all.  Am I the oddball?   :lol

Well, I guess one can think it may *sound* new metal. But for the riffs to actually be inspired by new metal is patently ridiculous, and impossible. Awake was released on 10/4/94, Korn's s/t on 10/11/94.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 14, 2013, 05:24:46 PM
Nu metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2013, 08:47:05 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 14, 2013, 01:26:49 PM
Agree with Rumborak here. I really don't like the way DT sounds live with the click tracks.

I'd understand if you liked it less... But not liking it at all, just because the rhythm of the songs is consistent is a little ridiculous.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 15, 2013, 12:04:23 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 12:38:44 PM
I would even argue that songs are *meant* to be played faster live than on the recording. Every band I've played in, and every band I've seen, has done so. I think it's just the adrenaline rush of the moment that gets you into that mood, and I would argue that, if that's the mood, the music should reflect that. Case in point, when MM plays the 6:00 intro fill on LALP, I actually thought he was playing it *slower* than on the record, exactly because of that live phenomenon. Playing the album speed seemed wrongly slow.

I know what you mean. TROAE sounded slow at album tempo live, and TSCO is a song that I feel really needs to be played in the moment, and falls flat for me live on LALP.
However there are also other songs that don't bother me at album tempo at all, and some of the ballads actually benefit from being kept at a slower tempo, as they were sometimes too fast and lost the feels altogether live.

So I'm still very much on the fence over click vs no click. Both have their pros and cons.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on December 15, 2013, 12:25:35 AM
I think I like the idea of a band going on stage and creating music without any help, but I can see how they might want it. I agree that in some songs like TSCO, the tempo needs to be able to breathe. All in all, I guess it doesn't bother me too much, but I'd prefer they didn't use it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 15, 2013, 03:33:02 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on December 14, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
Not their fault, Linkin Part used to be awesome.

Fixed :P

I think they had their hay day but now.. They're up to some interesting stuff. I wouldn't be as pretentious as to call it terrible but.. It's not the LP I grew up with anymore that's for sure.

Also, I always thought These Walls had a kind of nu-metal vibe to it. Figured it was just another one of the many Octavarium album reference to their different musical influences.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 05:05:47 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2013, 08:47:05 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 14, 2013, 01:26:49 PM
Agree with Rumborak here. I really don't like the way DT sounds live with the click tracks.

I'd understand if you liked it less... But not liking it at all, just because the rhythm of the songs is consistent is a little ridiculous.

Not liking it a lot =/= not liking it at all. Pls read.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 15, 2013, 05:22:57 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 14, 2013, 01:26:49 PM
Agree with Rumborak here.
Me too. For me, it's a no-brainer that click tracks and especially backing tracks are mood killers live. Besides the drum mix/sound, this is where I miss MP the most. I remember we used to make fun of Nightwish for their excessive use of backing tracks and now DT is one of those bands. JLB falls down on the stage and the chorus keeps playing. :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 05:05:47 AM


Not liking it a lot =/= not liking it at all. Pls read.

I read you saying you really don't like the way they sound now. If you really don't like something, then you might as well say you dislike it, or not like it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 15, 2013, 10:34:42 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 05:05:47 AM


Not liking it a lot =/= not liking it at all. Pls read.

I read you saying you really don't like the way they sound now. If you really don't like something, then you might as well say you dislike it, or not like it at all.
He doesn't like how they sound with click compared to without click, that's the obvious interpretation to me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 15, 2013, 01:37:57 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on December 15, 2013, 03:33:02 AM
Not their fault, Linkin Park never was awesome.

Fixed again :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 15, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
Linkin Park are awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlackInk on December 15, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Mike Mangini needs to calm the f down. Playing at 300 m/h at all times only makes him an annoying presence on the new album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 02:21:51 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 05:05:47 AM


Not liking it a lot =/= not liking it at all. Pls read.

I read you saying you really don't like the way they sound now. If you really don't like something, then you might as well say you dislike it, or not like it at all.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 15, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 15, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
Linkin Park are awesome.
Bands with songs which can be seamlessly mashed together cannot be awesome be default. :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSp0SRUM5p8

Now this, on the other hand, is awesome! :lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUSNfned0Ao
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Marion Crane on December 15, 2013, 02:33:56 PM
I wouldn't say it's seamless. The tempos and keys were changed to create the mashup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 15, 2013, 03:23:42 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 15, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 15, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
Linkin Park are awesome.
Bands with songs which can be seamlessly mashed together cannot be awesome be default. :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSp0SRUM5p8

Now this, on the other hand, is awesome! :lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUSNfned0Ao

olol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 15, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.

Agree completely, Luna Park feels much less organic than previous live albums and I have to blame the click track. I still think they're great live, but just not as interesting and spontaneous as they could be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 15, 2013, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: BlackInk on December 15, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
Mike Mangini needs to calm the f down. Playing at 300 m/h at all times only makes him an annoying presence on the new album.

I actually thought MP would overplay more than Mangini. Mangini seems more subtle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 15, 2013, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 15, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 14, 2013, 09:42:18 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is that I think DT is somewhat killing the dynamicness of their performances with them playing all tunes to click. Just for shits and giggles I just played BITS in parallel from the album and from LALP. They stayed in complete sync all the way through.

Agree completely, Luna Park feels much less organic than previous live albums and I have to blame the click track. I still think they're great live, but just not as interesting and spontaneous as they could be.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS                                                                                          THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 15, 2013, 06:26:19 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 15, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 15, 2013, 02:01:25 PM
Linkin Park are awesome.
Bands with songs which can be seamlessly mashed together cannot be awesome be default. :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSp0SRUM5p8

Now this, on the other hand, is awesome! :lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUSNfned0Ao

Haha, good find :lol although in fairness, every band, DT not excluded have their favourite Chord progressions and there are little nuances in JPs solos that are quite common like bent 6ths and Aeolian Minor scales. He loves that stuff and I bet you could make a DT Mash Up of various sections that follow these same structures if you wanted. Granted, it probably wouldn't be as easy and obvious as Linkin Parks Chord progressions. But my point is, being able to mash together a bands music doesn't necessarily detract from the originality for most people because half the time the band is deliberately using that sound, and I bet they're well aware they're using the same chord progressions because they know the sound and mood they're going for. And it kind of relates to their older music, almost like a progressional growth in their musical expression. And expansion upon what they started with or originally created.

Of course you can take this too far and end up ripping off your own music and boring yourself silly with repetitive music. I dunno. I think it depends if the music has 'soul'. Doesn't matter how similar the chords or notes are to something else, if it can be unique in it's own way and it came from a place that wasn't trying to be something else, then that feels legitimate to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on December 15, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
My controversial opinion is that I like every song on BC&SL. ANTR has great riffs, and while some may be repeated too much, the song progresses well, not to mention that Beautiful Agony is...well, beautiful. AROP has one my favorite DT choruses, an admittedly good guitar solo, and an admittedly bad keyboard solo, but not so bad that it detracts from the song. Wither is nothing special, but it's a well written song. The Shattered Fortress is my favorite of the 12 step songs, because it doesn't just rehash old ideas. It actually makes them fit in the album,  makes them sound new again, and takes them in new directions. TBOT has so much emotion in the beginning and the final guitar solo, and the middle isn't bad itself. TCOT is just epic. Sure, there are weaknesses in the lyrics, but the song does take me for a ride. The album promises a vast adventure, and it delivers. And to all the haters of this album, this is what I think. Please try to forgive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on December 15, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
Quote from: Zyzzyva17 on December 15, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
My controversial opinion is that I like every song on BC&SL. ANTR has great riffs, and while some may be repeated too much, the song progresses well, not to mention that Beautiful Agony is...well, beautiful. AROP has one my favorite DT choruses, an admittedly good guitar solo, and an admittedly bad keyboard solo, but not so bad that it detracts from the song. Wither is nothing special, but it's a well written song. The Shattered Fortress is my favorite of the 12 step songs, because it doesn't just rehash old ideas. It actually makes them fit in the album,  makes them sound new again, and takes them in new directions. TBOT has so much emotion in the beginning and the final guitar solo, and the middle isn't bad itself. TCOT is just epic. Sure, there are weaknesses in the lyrics, but the song does take me for a ride. The album promises a vast adventure, and it delivers. And to all the haters of this album, this is what I think. Please try to forgive.
How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on December 15, 2013, 09:00:55 PM
I agree that most of the song is taken from previous parts, but almost everything that returns in the song is presented differently from in its original song. They don't change it entirely, but I'd argue they add enough for it not to be a "rehash." What's funny is that I like the song precisely because it uses so many previous ideas. It gives the song a sort of compositional nature. Whatever that's supposed to mean.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on December 15, 2013, 09:42:16 PM
Fair enough.. I can certainly respect that opinion, I just don't happen to share it  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 09:48:12 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 15, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.

Considering that from the opening riff and the first verses in the song are all original, that statement is fairly inaccurate.

Quote from: Zyzzyva17 on December 15, 2013, 09:00:55 PM
I agree that most of the song is taken from previous parts, but almost everything that returns in the song is presented differently from in its original song. They don't change it entirely, but I'd argue they add enough for it not to be a "rehash." What's funny is that I like the song precisely because it uses so many previous ideas. It gives the song a sort of compositional nature. Whatever that's supposed to mean.

All of this. It's by far my favorite of the 12SS, the use of so many different passages makes it that much more progressive, and hearing references to those earlier songs definitely adds to the experience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 15, 2013, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 09:48:12 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 15, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
How exactly is The Shattered Fortress not just rehashing old ideas? The first 9 minutes are straight from other 12SS songs, which is precisely why I don't like that song.

Considering that from the opening riff and the first verses in the song are all original, that statement is fairly inaccurate.
Opening riff is a reprise of the guitar lead in This Dying Soul
The first verses are a reprise of a riff in The Glass Prison

Literally everything until the second half of the guitar solo AT THE VERY END is a reprise of something. JSYK. The riff that plays under the "responsible" vocal part and a bit before it is the only section of the song not a reprise of something else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 15, 2013, 09:54:55 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on December 15, 2013, 09:42:16 PM
Fair enough.. I can certainly respect that opinion, I just don't happen to share it  :P

Same here. I can see why it's popular and a lot of people like it.....it uses great parts from the other great AA Saga songs. I've said it a few times here in different threads, I just think it was a lazy, predictable way to end that 12 Step Suite. Using segments of all the other songs "makes sense" but it is/was predictable and the lazy aspect for me comes in because it's just cut and paste moments that are sloppy transitions.

  Is it 'good' music, are they still playing at a high level and does it 'sound' good? For the most part. But I'd like to have heard a more creative ending song for that AA deal.....a stand alone song.


A controversial opinion that I've mentioned in this thread that stems from the AA Saga is that had MP not began the AA saga songs he'd have bolted from DT years ago. I don't think his personality allowed him to entertain leaving while that saga remained unfinished. My opinion is completing that AA saga was the only thing holding his interest in DT and once it was completed he was 'finished'.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
Quote from: Parama on December 15, 2013, 09:50:59 PM
Opening riff is a reprise of the guitar lead in This Dying Soul
The first verses are a reprise of a riff in The Glass Prison

The "Fateful ascent" part is from The Glass Prison, yes, but "Freedom calls my name" those parts are original, at least in terms of vocals, and the ambient parts really add a different flavor to it.
I could hear This Dying Soul reprisein the opening solo, but the riff didn't ring a bell at all. So to me, they did enough with it to give it an original flavor and make it sound like a lot more than just a rehash.

And I would say the same for pretty much every other part of the song, aside from maybe the riff from The Root Of All Evil, but that riff is so awesome, I'm glad they didn't do much to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 16, 2013, 12:56:27 AM
I don't get why people get so upset about The Shattered Fortress reprising all those section. The keyword here is reprise. I thought it was really cool when I first heard all those references. And it's not like it is a ripoff because it was their song, and it's not like it's a rehash because this song is directly related to those other songs as a finale and even still,  it's not like there wasn't significant change. Also, being the final piece in a suite what else did you expect? They may be stand alone songs, but the purpose of this last piece was to tie up all the musical/lyrical themes from the pieces so far. If we had a completely original composition and tacked it on the end of the 12SS, people would say it had nothing to do with the other songs and it would feel out of place.

If there's any song that can get away with reprising these passages it's this one, it just makes sense to kind of collect up all the highlights just to bring context to the suite as a whole. I thought after Repentance anything could happen, but I like how the final piece re-examines the ground we've tred from a new perspective. So I don't know if that's controversial in itself, but I think The Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to the 12SS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on December 16, 2013, 01:01:14 AM
I completely agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 16, 2013, 01:07:50 AM
There's nothing wrong with it, I don't consider it a bad song, but on the other hand I much prefer basically every single reprised bit in the original songs over in TSF. It's suitable as an ending since the entire suite had a lot of reprising in it but it would've been more satisfying to have a song that reprised less and had more of its own original content. They do reprise stuff in interesting ways most of the time though. The reprise of the Repentance chorus (in a different time signature and with distortion instead of clean guitar, etc.) is probably my favorite bit of the song, so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 01:29:53 AM
Some of the reprisals are very well done, and add a new twist to the section, while others just feel like they shoehorned in a section that really didn't fit, which leads to a few really awkward transitions. The "take all of me..." verse is the main example that sticks out.
And it has always bugged me that during the TGP riff reprisal that closes off the song, they put the bell sound on the wrong beat. It's supposed to be on the 8/8, not on the 1!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 16, 2013, 03:00:13 AM
Hmm I never noticed the bell was on the beat this time. XD Maybe it was intended to be some sort of symbolic resolve as some form of concluding intentness. Or maybe that'd be reading far too much into it.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on December 16, 2013, 06:32:39 AM
Yea you might be. People don't tend to over analyse round here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:54:02 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on December 16, 2013, 06:32:39 AM
Yea you might be. People don't tend to over analyse round here.

Can't tell if that's a joke or not. But I certainly hope it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 16, 2013, 12:22:32 PM
I’m not sure if it’s controversial (maybe it’s common knowledge) or if it’s inappropriate, but I’ve felt that at some point Portnoy grew to really dislike Myung (probably throw in Labrie as well, but my focus here is Myung).   

A little background – I didn’t get into DT until several years ago, and was introduced by way of listening to the albums sequentially starting with I&W.  I didn’t do much research on the band, and really just spoke a lot about what I liked/didn’t like, or why did Kevin Moore leave, what about Sherinian…that sort of thing. 

My first real glimpse into the band was the DVD that came with the Systematic Chaos CD.  I remember at the time being really bothered by a few things.  Portnoy made a big deal to say how much Rudess “rocked,” he talked about Petrucci’s lyrics, etc. etc.  Yet I don’t recall anything on Myung…and if that wasn’t enough he has a shot of him (Portnoy) laying down a bass line.  I guess that really stood out to me (and I was probably already looking to accuse him of something).

Anyway, then I’d feel like Myung was really taken out of the mix.  Then I’d read about how Portnoy would talk about difficulties writing around Myung’s lyrics, etc. 

Portnoy leaves the band, and it all feels different.  Myung seems to have a voice again – two tracks in the last two albums with his lyrics, a better mix in the audio (though I still would like to see them scale back and do less double/tripling of guitar work). 

I would love to hear any thoughts on this, or maybe if I need to be put in my place a bit.   I believe you are the experts on this and it's something I've wanted to discuss before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on December 16, 2013, 12:30:42 PM
I think their personalities always clashed, whether it was a problem at the any time or not. Way back when they first started, didn't JM and MP try living together? If I remember correctly, it didn't work out and one of them had to move out after a couple weeks.

I don't think there was ever any real negative feelings though. We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 16, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
Quote from: Implode on December 16, 2013, 12:30:42 PM
We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.

This is a good point and something I didn't consider.  MP comes across as pretty direct and there would likely be something quoted if he really disliked him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FracturedMirror on December 16, 2013, 01:40:47 PM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 16, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
Quote from: Implode on December 16, 2013, 12:30:42 PM
We never heard MP bash JM, even after the break up. He probably just respected their differences and kept disagreements quiet. The same goes for JM. If MP had any problems with JM I think we would've heard more about directly from MP like with JLB.

This is a good point and something I didn't consider.  MP comes across as pretty direct and there would likely be something quoted if he really disliked him.

I think if there were problems between the two that had went on for a long time, they wouldn't have stayed together in the group for so long.  You gotta remember that MP, JP, and JM were all in the group together for what is, as far as most bands go anyway, a long time before even JLB came on board.  The core trio of the band stayed together from 1985 to 2010, so I don't think there were any significant personality clashes among them; at least not in the first couple of decades together.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 16, 2013, 03:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on December 16, 2013, 12:56:27 AM
I don't get why people get so upset about The Shattered Fortress reprising all those section. The keyword here is reprise. I thought it was really cool when I first heard all those references. And it's not like it is a ripoff because it was their song, and it's not like it's a rehash because this song is directly related to those other songs as a finale and even still,  it's not like there wasn't significant change. Also, being the final piece in a suite what else did you expect? They may be stand alone songs, but the purpose of this last piece was to tie up all the musical/lyrical themes from the pieces so far. If we had a completely original composition and tacked it on the end of the 12SS, people would say it had nothing to do with the other songs and it would feel out of place.

If there's any song that can get away with reprising these passages it's this one, it just makes sense to kind of collect up all the highlights just to bring context to the suite as a whole. I thought after Repentance anything could happen, but I like how the final piece re-examines the ground we've tred from a new perspective. So I don't know if that's controversial in itself, but I think The Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to the 12SS.

Thank you so much for this post. I love the reprises because I feel theu represent a feeling or emotion of whatever your using the 12 steps to overcome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

I remember reading that too. Come on Jaffa, you're the search king, go and find the source to back yourself up!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:25:49 PM
I may be thinking of ADTOE, but I remember reading that he wrote lyrics for 3 songs and they were rejected. Either way, my point still stands, since ADTOE only features JLB's lyrics on one song and it's the shortest one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:25:49 PM
I may be thinking of ADTOE, but I remember reading that he wrote lyrics for 3 songs and they were rejected. Either way, my point still stands, since ADTOE only features JLB's lyrics on one song and it's the shortest one.

The same can also be said about ToT. It's typical for JLB to only write lyrics for one song on the album (none on BCASL), and I haven't heard about it being due to his lyrics being rejected.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:37:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:29:31 PM
The same can also be said about ToT. It's typical for JLB to only write lyrics for one song on the album (none on BCASL), and I haven't heard about it being due to his lyrics being rejected.

Yeah, but my point is, if we're under the assumption that without MP, JP needs other members to pick up the slack and write more lyrics, and that is why JM is writing lyrics again, then by that logic, JP shouldn't be thankful to get 3 sets of lyrics from JLB.

I don't have the time or will power to go searching for that interview, especially since JLB did a crapton of interviews between 2011 and 2013, but I'm fairly certain I remember reading that he wrote 3 sets of lyrics, and that JP thought his lyrics were better suited. Not in a resentful way, but I do remember him mentioning something of the sort.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:40:36 PM
I am definitely not the search king.   :lol  This one turned out to be fairly easy, though.  I don't have a DTF link, but this (https://www.rockurlife.net/interview/english/dream-theater-19-08-13) is the interview in question.  The specific question is about halfway down, or you can CTRL+F "lyrics" and it'll bring you right to it.  In any case:

Quote from: JLB
when it came to the lyrics I just said to John and the guys “you know what, I’m gonna step back, I’ll get involved in the next album, but right now I’ve written all these words for my solo album and I’m gonna step back” that’s just where I wanted to be. I’ve written all my words for “Impermanent Resonance”, Matt (Guillory) and I we split the lyrical writing but I just felt I’ve expressed myself enough as it is and everyone was cool, they wanted me to write like John “you got to write a couple man!” I was like “no, I think you should do it”


Now, in fairness to your point, TGP, I actually do remember reading what you're talking about, too.  But I'm pretty sure that was for ADTOE.  On DTDT, JLB seems pretty clear that it was his choice not to write anything. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:44:42 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:40:36 PM

Now, in fairness to your point, TGP, I actually do remember reading what you're talking about, too.  But I'm pretty sure that was for ADTOE.  On DTDT, JLB seems pretty clear that it was his choice not to write anything.

Right. Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate that JLB's lyrics were rejected from DT12, I was just saying since MP left in general, since we are talking about picking up the slack of MP's lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on December 17, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
Here's mine.

My gut instinct (which correctly predicted major trouble within DT when MP made public comments about JLB) is sensing that JR is
not feeling 'driven' or 'fulfilled' within DT and that it won't be long before he moves along. I think the $$ is very good and provides
a good quality of life, but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 17, 2013, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

Thank god JLB doesn't write many lyrics. DT has never really been consistent in the lyric department but JLB lyrics make me cringe, his solo albums suffer because of the lyrical content IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 17, 2013, 08:54:48 AM
Quote from: emtee on December 17, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.

Interesting.  What do you see as the type of music he's passionate about.  I know that I've tried a solo album or two, and haven't gotten into that quite as much
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on December 17, 2013, 09:47:17 AM
Controversial opinions? Ok, here we go:

Octavarium<Illumination Theory
I&W<<<Awake
KM=DS=JR
Mike=Mike
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 17, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.

They are equally bad in my eyes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 17, 2013, 11:39:55 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.
Factual.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 17, 2013, 11:43:44 AM
I also prefer A Nightmare To Remember.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 17, 2013, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: emtee on December 17, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
Here's mine.

My gut instinct (which correctly predicted major trouble within DT when MP made public comments about JLB) is sensing that JR is
not feeling 'driven' or 'fulfilled' within DT and that it won't be long before he moves along. I think the $$ is very good and provides
a good quality of life, but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.


Bite your tongue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 17, 2013, 07:24:27 PM
Quote from: emtee on December 17, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
Here's mine.

My gut instinct (which correctly predicted major trouble within DT when MP made public comments about JLB) is sensing that JR is
not feeling 'driven' or 'fulfilled' within DT and that it won't be long before he moves along. I think the $$ is very good and provides
a good quality of life, but the type of music DT is creating is not meshing with the type of music he is passionate about. I see one
tour, maybe 2 and depending on what the next studio album turns out to be...that DT13 may be his last.

 That´s an interesting thought...while I´m not sure if he´ll ever quit, I agree that it´s hard to say Jordan looks 100% fulfilled with their recent output.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.

I think they're both great, although I think I'd maybe give the slight edge to ANTR. Maybe not, I don't know!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 17, 2013, 08:30:26 PM
......


















..........














.....no
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 17, 2013, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 17, 2013, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 16, 2013, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 16, 2013, 08:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2013, 12:28:25 PM
If I recall correctly, Myung had spoken about planning on writing more lyrics even before Portnoy left, so I don't think there was a direct correlation there.

Yep, I recall that too. Also, without MP writing lyrics, it was almost necessary for him to step up and help out, because JP is responsible for the bulk of the lyrics now.

And yet, JLB's lyrics are still being rejected.

Source?  From what I've read, he felt that he'd written enough lyrics for his solo album that he didn't feel the need to write anything for DTDT. 

Thank god JLB doesn't write many lyrics. DT has never really been consistent in the lyric department but JLB lyrics make me cringe, his solo albums suffer because of the lyrical content IMO.

He lyrics are not as beautifully poetic as JM's or as deep and dark as KM's, but he isn't horrible.  Vacant, Disappear, Blind Faith, and Far From Heaven are really good. FFH hits home pretty hard so I can listen to those words over and over. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 17, 2013, 08:57:36 PM
Also, at least half the lyrics on JLB's solo albums are written by Guillory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Obviously it was the freemasons who put him up to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 17, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Obviously it was the freemasons who put him up to it.

Did you watch that on a Michael Moore documentary?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 17, 2013, 09:13:25 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 17, 2013, 07:24:27 PM
That´s an interesting thought...while I´m not sure if he´ll ever quit, I agree that it´s hard to say Jordan looks 100% fulfilled with their recent output.

Yeah, but he seems to be very preoccupied with his App business, plus he seems to be really into exploring new sounds and things like that when it comes to DT. And he's been involved in side projects and writing all sorts of orchestral and piano music and putting on concerts etc. So I'm pretty sure that all in all, he's pretty fulfilled as an artist. So there should be no reason for him to quit DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 17, 2013, 09:45:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Obviously it was the freemasons who put him up to it.
You dumbasses. Mike Portnoy died three years ago from overexhaustion from playing a show at the un-airconditioned Worcester Palladium. (Anyone at that show will understand what I mean.) They found a homeless guy, died his beard blue, and passed him off as MP, hence the simpler drumming since the DT departure. DT stole a robot from the Pearl labs and passed him off as the new drummer.

Ask me about when KM got his face badly beaten and then lost all his hair in a fire. It was dry until he hit a swimming pool.


























I need to go to bed.




























:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 17, 2013, 10:09:33 PM
I don't really enjoy, appreciate, or fully understand some of JRs extended solo "atmospheric" type pieces in the middle of songs.  I am trying to think if we have many in the last two, but I am thinking of Octavarium as well as a song or to on BCSL at least.  They are parts that I'd just as soon skip over as I feel it doesn't advance the music (though I do appreciate when it's over). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 17, 2013, 10:33:00 PM
Why do I always miss all the amazing posts in this thread?  :rollin
JR is actually Kevin Moore from the not-so-distant future, by the way. I don't know if you guys knew that, but he has a time machine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 17, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Quote from: Parama on December 17, 2013, 10:33:00 PM
Why do I always miss all the amazing posts in this thread?  :rollin
JR is actually Kevin Moore from the not-so-distant future, by the way. I don't know if you guys knew that, but he has a time machine.

If this is true, then apparently he also has some other magical machine that gave him better keyboard playing skills than he had in his heyday.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 18, 2013, 04:04:23 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.
Both are top 15 material for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 18, 2013, 04:08:36 AM
Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM
Thought of the day-- A Nightmare to Remember kicks Illumination Theory's ass.
ANTR isn't a favorite of mine by any means, but I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 18, 2013, 06:56:24 AM
If not for the last 5 minutes....yes 5 minutes.....of ANTR it would be a near perfect song. But, the way they drug it out....oh and put that incredibly out of place/ comical an un-necessary 'blast beat' section in there....ruined it from being a great song to me. That's one of the things I enjoy about DT12....they don't drag out songs just to make them 9-10 minutes long. That's what they did with ANTR....drug it out for no reason other than to have a 16 minute song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on December 18, 2013, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 18, 2013, 06:56:24 AM
If not for the last 5 minutes....yes 5 minutes.....of ANTR it would be a near perfect song. But, the way they drug it out....oh and put that incredibly out of place/ comical an un-necessary 'blast beat' section in there....ruined it from being a great song to me. That's one of the things I enjoy about DT12....they don't drag out songs just to make them 9-10 minutes long. That's what they did with ANTR....drug it out for no reason other than to have a 16 minute song.
I agree. Except I don't find the intro to be the best thing ever. 5:10-10:29 is magic though, encompasses exactly that which I love about DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on December 18, 2013, 06:56:24 AM
If not for the last 5 minutes....yes 5 minutes.....of ANTR it would be a near perfect song. But, the way they drug it out....oh and put that incredibly out of place/ comical an un-necessary 'blast beat' section in there....ruined it from being a great song to me. That's one of the things I enjoy about DT12....they don't drag out songs just to make them 9-10 minutes long. That's what they did with ANTR....drug it out for no reason other than to have a 16 minute song.

I don't mind the dragged out ending half as much as I dislike the rororo section, which literally makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it, and the majority of the instrumental section. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 08:02:48 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
[
I don't mind the dragged out ending half as much as I dislike the rororo section, which literally makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it, and the majority of the instrumental section.

What's the "rororo section"?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on December 18, 2013, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 08:02:48 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
[
I don't mind the dragged out ending half as much as I dislike the rororo section, which literally makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it, and the majority of the instrumental section.

What's the "rororo section"?

Thanks.

"Day after day, and night after night..."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: Zydar on December 18, 2013, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 08:02:48 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 07:55:37 AM
[
I don't mind the dragged out ending half as much as I dislike the rororo section, which literally makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it, and the majority of the instrumental section.

What's the "rororo section"?

Thanks.

"Day after day, and night after night..."

Thanks.  I also can't stand that part. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 18, 2013, 10:06:21 AM
ANTR is a pretty good song for the entire first half and then the rest of the song happens and kills it.
IT was never a good song at any point and it doesn't have any section as bad as the worst of ANTR but nothing in it comes close to the better parts on ANTR either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Edan the Man on December 18, 2013, 11:00:24 AM
I don't know how to compare those two songs. In ANTR, the DAY AFTER DAY part is cringey, and the instrumental part that takes place leading up to is pretty forgettable as well. But I love the rest of the song, especially the peaceful sedation bit!

Illumination Theory is great, I actually really like everything up to the orchestra part, which... well I like that part too, but its totally out of place and hurts the pace of the song. Right AFTER it though, "MOTHERS FOR THEIR CHILDREN, ETC FOR ETC...", is like my favorite bit of the entire album, JLB here :metal. But then I really don't care for "Surrender, Trust & Passion" at all, a mediocre ending to the song imo. The little thingy at the very end that fades out is cool though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 18, 2013, 11:06:30 AM
Quote from: Parama on December 18, 2013, 10:06:21 AM
IT was never a good song at any point and it doesn't have any section as bad as the worst of ANTR but nothing in it comes close to the better parts on ANTR either.

I happen to really like Live, Die, Kill but that's all I really appreciate out of IT.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 17, 2013, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Obviously it was the freemasons who put him up to it.

Well that explains A Rite Of Passage... it was the mason brotherhood...

bruthahood... bruthahood...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 PM
bruthahood... bruthahood...

Ah yes, the part that ruins the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 PM
bruthahood... bruthahood...

Ah yes, the part that ruins the song.

 :lol There are certainly more parts of the song that ruin it, but that portion is cringe-inducing.

"Strength and dignataaaaay"  "Dignity!!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:34:38 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
:lol There are certainly more parts of the song that ruin it, but that portion is cringe-inducing.

"Strength and dignataaaaay"  "Dignity!!"

It became so much worse once I heard the stems, and I listened to the vocals by themselves with full clarity of those horrible backups. Now I can't unhear them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 18, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
:lol  I actually like those parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 12:46:00 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 PM
bruthahood... bruthahood...

Ah yes, the part that ruins the song.

 :lol There are certainly more parts of the song that ruin it, but that portion is cringe-inducing.

"Strength and dignataaaaay"  "Dignity!!"

What's the follow-up...is it "OY!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:34:38 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
:lol There are certainly more parts of the song that ruin it, but that portion is cringe-inducing.

"Strength and dignataaaaay"  "Dignity!!"

It became so much worse once I heard the stems, and I listened to the vocals by themselves with full clarity of those horrible backups. Now I can't unhear them.

Where can I hear this?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 18, 2013, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on December 18, 2013, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 PM
bruthahood... bruthahood...

Ah yes, the part that ruins the song.

 :lol There are certainly more parts of the song that ruin it, but that portion is cringe-inducing.

"Strength and dignataaaaay"  "Dignity!!"

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/mp_caption.jpg) (https://s.photobucket.com/user/rumborak/media/mp_caption.jpg.html)

INVENTORY!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 18, 2013, 01:26:31 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 02:21:51 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 15, 2013, 05:05:47 AM


Not liking it a lot =/= not liking it at all. Pls read.

I read you saying you really don't like the way they sound now. If you really don't like something, then you might as well say you dislike it, or not like it at all.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 01:57:22 PM
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on December 18, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 12:34:38 PM
It became so much worse once I heard the stems, and I listened to the vocals by themselves with full clarity of those horrible backups. Now I can't unhear them.

Where can I hear this?

The stems were a part of the BC&SL Limited Edition Box Set.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 18, 2013, 03:14:34 PM
Oh god I shouldn't have ever youtube'd the AROP stem  :lol So glad they got rid of those Portnoy vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 03:57:00 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 18, 2013, 03:14:34 PM
Oh god I shouldn't have ever youtube'd the AROP stem  :lol So glad they got rid of those Portnoy vocals.

But they didn't... Those vocals are still there. I WISH they'd gotten rid of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 18, 2013, 04:09:03 PM
I obviously meant that in terms of the post-Portnoy albums... why you gotta nitpick everything I'll never know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 18, 2013, 04:09:03 PM
I obviously meant that in terms of the post-Portnoy albums... why you gotta nitpick everything I'll never know.

Sorry!  :blush I honestly didn't realize what you meant!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
Illumination Theory is amazing. What are you guys smoking? While I do agree the Disney section is kind of random and kind of kills the momentum, it's still a beautiful section, and the rest of the song is brilliant as well.

There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

Amen!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 18, 2013, 05:26:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

Amen!

Third.

The first time I thought that in a long time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on December 18, 2013, 05:47:23 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 18, 2013, 05:26:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

Amen!

Third.

The first time I thought that in a long time.
Give that man a cookie!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 18, 2013, 05:50:16 PM
DT12 is a concise album (aside from IT of course) so it's not like the songs needed trimming, just that the production is abysmal and most of the songs weren't really that good to begin with <.<;
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 05:53:37 PM
Quote from: Parama on December 18, 2013, 05:50:16 PM
DT12 is a concise album (aside from IT of course) so it's not like the songs needed trimming, just that the production is abysmal and most of the songs weren't really that good to begin with <.<;
Well, you're in the right thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on December 18, 2013, 05:58:57 PM
The only songs that don't have production issues off the top of my head are EM and AFtR, and only one of those is somewhat interesting anyways.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 06:01:26 PM
Don't know what you're talking about. It's a fantastic sounding album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 18, 2013, 06:09:06 PM
Quote from: Parama on December 18, 2013, 05:58:57 PM
The only songs that don't have production issues off the top of my head are EM and AFtR, and only one of those is somewhat interesting anyways.

Curious what the issues are that you are hearing.  Not agreeing/disagreeing, just wanted you to expand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 18, 2013, 06:19:50 PM
I think Illumination Theory is a near perfect representation of everything Dream Theater does well (including the silence  :lol). I won't claim everything in this song is the best they're ever done, but it's all reflective of their many different styles and influences and it's done well. The song may not stay the same for very long but I don't expect as much repetition in their 'epic' tracks, it's more about the musical journey.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 18, 2013, 06:23:48 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on December 18, 2013, 06:19:50 PM
The song may not stay the same for very long
That's one of the best aspects of Dream Theater's music, and what defines Progressive music for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on December 18, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
I'll just throw this thought out yet again since we were discussing AROP. I love everything MP has done vocally on a DT record. It excites me to hear his voice as another one in the mix and it's one of the things I miss most on the last two albums. I also happen to think he's super creative when it comes to backing vocal parts. Also AROP is a killer song, and "DIGNITY! OY!" is one of the highlights along with the chorus and iPod solo. So sue me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 18, 2013, 08:00:06 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 17, 2013, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: mabowe on December 17, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
I think MP has orchestrated this whole thing, he once said that mangini would be the only one that could have replaced him.  DT have done there thing, and so has MP, he's basically having his five year hiatus. MM is used to being a hired gun and can clearly make a living when he is indeed replaced once again by MP. The notoriety that MM will get from the DT thing will (has) thrown him into the stratosphere of drumming. So MM will have that. We are being fed a shit ton of DT related stuff right now, SR, DT, LALP, JR solo stuff, LMR, and a possible JP solo album.  So after all that my controversial opinion on DT, is that .....they will be taking a break and the the next incarnation of the band will include MP.

I personally believe that MM was put up for the job by the NSA.  MM is a government shill whose primary job is to find out whether JM (who has been a person of interest to the CIA for several decades) has any terrorist sympathies.  Once that is figured out, MM will fake his own death and assume a new identity as a gas station attendant in Alabama, at which point MP will re-join DT.

Mangini is the Edward Snowden of Dream Theater
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 18, 2013, 09:44:31 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
Illumination Theory is amazing. What are you guys smoking? While I do agree the Disney section is kind of random and kind of kills the momentum, it's still a beautiful section, and the rest of the song is brilliant as well.

There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

They actually went too far in the opposite direction if anything. Aside from IT, there's not much on the album that really wows me. I think they needed to develop the ideas more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 19, 2013, 01:20:20 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

FAS, Enigma Machine, Enemy Inside (JR solo), IT... all have the "what were they thinking" moments :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 01:37:36 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on December 19, 2013, 01:20:20 PM
FAS, Enigma Machine, Enemy Inside (JR solo), IT... all have the "what were they thinking" moments :rollin
If you're gonna be that picky, then there isn't a single DT album where they DON'T have moments like that. And usually more of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 19, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on December 19, 2013, 01:20:20 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 18, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
There are no parts of DT12 that make me think, "what were they thinking" or "this is unnecessary".

FAS, Enigma Machine, Enemy Inside (JR solo), IT... all have the "what were they thinking" moments :rollin

It should be expected of JR to do the cooky stuff, but really, what's in The Enemy Inside that isn't in, say Scenes from a Memory? If there's one thing that wasn't necessary in Enigma Machine, I guess it would be the slow Tuscany section, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I don't know, DT12 has so many people divided, I just don't understand. It's a great album, with no filler, goofy vocals, or disco or blatant rip offs. The Looking Glass has the Limelight inspired riff, but it isn't an exact copy, and at least it's an inspiration from a band that doesn't suck, i.e. Muse... Oh excuse me, I mean, a band that I don't care for at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 05:43:02 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
I don't know, DT12 has so many people divided, I just don't understand.

Yeah, I'm really surprised that it's such a polarizing album. I mean, personally, I'm a wankery hound, so yeah, I would've been happy as hell if the album was super technical and went all over the place, but as it stands, it's in the very nice middle ground with some parts of it still taking unexpected twists all the while still having a very solid and well implemented musical structure. In that manner, it's kind of like combining the tameness of FII with the musical freedom of SFAM. Yet some people are saying that it's DT's worst album, and not even in that "it's still awesome just not as awesome as the rest" way, they really don't like it, and I find that absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on December 19, 2013, 06:01:30 PM
I'm fascinated by the polarity as well. Ah well. That's part of what makes DT fans so interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 19, 2013, 06:10:15 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
It should be expected of JR to do the cooky stuff, but really, what's in The Enemy Inside that isn't in, say Scenes from a Memory? If there's one thing that wasn't necessary in Enigma Machine, I guess it would be the slow Tuscany section, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The intro (trying to be heavy as fck but failing, just cheesy), 1:40 and the slow part  :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 19, 2013, 06:15:38 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
It should be expected of JR to do the cooky stuff, but really, what's in The Enemy Inside that isn't in, say Scenes from a Memory?

Don't know, for me, these parts always sounded that they fits in the songs of SFAM or SDOIT (not counting the superior songwriting), unlike now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 19, 2013, 04:34:56 PM

It should be expected of JR to do the cooky stuff, but really, what's in The Enemy Inside that isn't in, say Scenes from a Memory? If there's one thing that wasn't necessary in Enigma Machine, I guess it would be the slow Tuscany section, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I don't know, DT12 has so many people divided, I just don't understand. It's a great album, with no filler, goofy vocals, or disco or blatant rip offs. The Looking Glass has the Limelight inspired riff, but it isn't an exact copy, and at least it's an inspiration from a band that doesn't suck, i.e. Muse... Oh excuse me, I mean, a band that I don't care for at all.

I don't rate an album by a DTF checklist of do's and dont's, I judge it for the quality of the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:08:55 PM
I don't rate an album by a DTF checklist of do's and dont's, I judge it for the quality of the music.

Which in DT12's case is phenomenal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 08:11:43 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:08:55 PM
I don't rate an album by a DTF checklist of do's and dont's, I judge it for the quality of the music.

Which in DT12's case is phenomenal.

Not for me it's not. It has a few great tracks and amazing moments, but the rest doesn't interest me much at all. I'd rank it near the bottom of their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
Not for me it's not. It has a few great tracks and amazing moments, but the rest doesn't interest me much at all. I'd rank it near the bottom of their discography.

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 19, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
Not for me it's not. It has a few great tracks and amazing moments, but the rest doesn't interest me much at all. I'd rank it near the bottom of their discography.

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

And that's just like your opinion, man. Wanna fight about it?


Nah, neither do I. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 19, 2013, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

TRUE!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

False.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 19, 2013, 11:32:55 PM
Why would anyone say that?  The band has been much better since than they were the last few years when he was in the band.  Like has been stated many times, a change was needed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 19, 2013, 11:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

False.

My True was "Truer" than your False! ^_^ !
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 11:55:59 PM
Quote from: adastra on December 19, 2013, 11:46:50 PM
My True was "Truer" than your False! ^_^ !

My true was so true that I didn't need to try too hard to overstate it.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 20, 2013, 12:21:01 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 19, 2013, 11:55:59 PM
Quote from: adastra on December 19, 2013, 11:46:50 PM
My True was "Truer" than your False! ^_^ !

My true was so true that I didn't need to try too hard to overstate it.  :P

So, is my opinion wrong ? :<
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2013, 12:21:44 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 20, 2013, 12:21:01 AM
So, is my opinion wrong ? :<

You're asking me? If you want me to actually answer that, then yes... Yes, it's wrong. Fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 20, 2013, 01:07:45 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2013, 12:21:44 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 20, 2013, 12:21:01 AM
So, is my opinion wrong ? :<

You're asking me? If you want me to actually answer that, then yes... Yes, it's wrong. Fact.

Haha xD 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 20, 2013, 03:34:27 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band.
About that, it seemed hypocritical from the band saying stuff like "we've literally been a family", "it's heartbreaking", "we never wanted this to happen" and then still closing the door on MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 20, 2013, 03:49:50 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 20, 2013, 03:34:27 AM
About that, it seemed hypocritical from the band saying stuff like "we've literally been a family", "it's heartbreaking", "we never wanted this to happen" and then still closing the door on MP.

But at the same time, it would be a real dick move if they made Mangini quit his job and rearrange his life, and then told him, "Sorry, nevermind." I'm sure that MP would have known better than to ask to come back if he had known that they'd already chosen a drummer at that point. Since they were keeping it hush hush, he didn't know what was going on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 20, 2013, 04:52:20 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 20, 2013, 03:34:27 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band.
About that, it seemed hypocritical from the band saying stuff like "we've literally been a family", "it's heartbreaking", "we never wanted this to happen" and then still closing the door on MP.

I don't see how that is hypocritical, at all. When you have a violent fallout with someone, you regret that it has happened, but even when that person later comes back with the tail between their legs, you don't just get back together with them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 20, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

If they let Portnoy back in the band and did Black Clouds part 2 I would probably not be a fan anymore. The two Mangini albums are much better than the later Portnoy albums, so not a mistake at all and I'm glad it happened. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 20, 2013, 06:51:40 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

If they let Portnoy back in the band and did Black Clouds part 2 I would probably not be a fan anymore. The two Mangini albums are much better than the later Portnoy albums, so not a mistake at all and I'm glad it happened.

Event though I own everything DT has released, I haven't been into any of the albums since Systematic Chaos.  Not a fan of BC&SL, ADTOE or "DT" nearly as much as their work with MP. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Event though I own everything DT has released, I haven't been into any of the albums since Systematic Chaos.  Not a fan of BC&SL, ADTOE or "DT" nearly as much as their work with MP.

As unfortunate as that may be, the fact that you included BC&SL into it means that your disinterest probably doesn't stem from Portnoy's absence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:45:28 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Event though I own everything DT has released, I haven't been into any of the albums since Systematic Chaos.  Not a fan of BC&SL, ADTOE or "DT" nearly as much as their work with MP.

As unfortunate as that may be, the fact that you included BC&SL into it means that your disinterest probably doesn't stem from Portnoy's absence.

I imagine it does, Mangini is a beast but I miss Mike P there.  BC&SL never connected for me and then from there I  just feel it's gone downhill. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 21, 2013, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Event though I own everything DT has released, I haven't been into any of the albums since Systematic Chaos.  Not a fan of BC&SL, ADTOE or "DT" nearly as much as their work with MP.

As unfortunate as that may be, the fact that you included BC&SL into it means that your disinterest probably doesn't stem from Portnoy's absence.

+1
Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were basically by the Mike Portnoy Band haha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on December 21, 2013, 04:46:27 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
Event though I own everything DT has released, I haven't been into any of the albums since Systematic Chaos.  Not a fan of BC&SL, ADTOE or "DT" nearly as much as their work with MP.

As unfortunate as that may be, the fact that you included BC&SL into it means that your disinterest probably doesn't stem from Portnoy's absence.

+1
Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were basically by the Mike Portnoy Band haha.

SC is probably my 3rd favorite DT Album.  BC&SL feels like a huge departure in terms of quality (to me).

SFAM
8VM
SC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
SC is probably my 3rd favorite DT Album. 

That in itself is a very controversial opinion, but I totally agree. I love SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Edan the Man on December 21, 2013, 04:52:22 PM
Sounds like you're in the right thread! :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 21, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
SC is probably my 3rd favorite DT Album. 

That in itself is a very controversial opinion, but I totally agree. I love SC.
Well, ITPOE and TDEN are excellent, TMOLS has its moments, CM has got a good chorus, the rest are eh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
The only thing that drags SC down for me are the spoken word passages in Repentance. Aside from that, every moment on the album is amazing from the beginning until the very end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fllnsprrw on December 21, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
There may be only be a few of us in this camp, at least on these forums, but I belong with those who do not believe Dream Theater is a better band without Mike Portnoy. My obsession with DT has indeed waned a little with his departure. Some of the magic is gone. I still haven't finished watching the new DT bluray...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 21, 2013, 06:24:11 PM
Quote from: fllnsprrw on December 21, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
There may be only be a few of us in this camp, at least on these forums, but I belong with those who do not believe Dream Theater is a better band without Mike Portnoy. My obsession with DT has indeed waned a little with his departure. Some of the magic is gone. I still haven't finished watching the new DT bluray...


 Fully agree, and I haven´t finished the new Blu-Ray either. I was watching a few tracks today and thought "Mangini is a monster, but Portnoy´s drumming has SO much more punch and character".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 21, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
I love SC and PoW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 21, 2013, 07:07:30 PM
Me too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 21, 2013, 08:03:46 PM
Quote from: fllnsprrw on December 21, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
There may be only be a few of us in this camp, at least on these forums, but I belong with those who do not believe Dream Theater is a better band without Mike Portnoy. My obsession with DT has indeed waned a little with his departure. Some of the magic is gone. I still haven't finished watching the new DT bluray...

Well you and MP only have MP to blame.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: moof on December 21, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
Quote from: fllnsprrw on December 21, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
There may be only be a few of us in this camp, at least on these forums, but I belong with those who do not believe Dream Theater is a better band without Mike Portnoy. My obsession with DT has indeed waned a little with his departure. Some of the magic is gone. I still haven't finished watching the new DT bluray...

Agreed.

Mangini is absolutely amazing... But he'll never be Mike Portnoy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 21, 2013, 09:50:28 PM
I'm with this resurgence of MP support. I have to ask, though— is it fair to blame the early RR albums on MP?
Also BC&SL kicks ass, quite possibly the best RR album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 10:09:35 PM
Quote from: moof on December 21, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
Mangini is absolutely amazing... But he'll never be Mike Portnoy

You're right. He'll never add crappy backup vocals that ruin the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anguyen92 on December 22, 2013, 01:18:00 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 10:09:35 PM
Quote from: moof on December 21, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
Mangini is absolutely amazing... But he'll never be Mike Portnoy

You're right. He'll never add crappy backup vocals that ruin the songs.

We may not know about that until they get back into the studio, for their next album, and, all of a sudden, decide to have Mangini to add backup vocals, then we can see what happens then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2013, 01:54:07 AM
Quote from: Anguyen92 on December 22, 2013, 01:18:00 AM
We may not know about that until they get back into the studio, for their next album, and, all of a sudden, decide to have Mangini to add backup vocals, then we can see what happens then.

Has Mangini ever done vocals, screaming ones for that matter? I mean, if he can sing harmonies, then that shouldn't be a problem, but I really doubt we'll be hearing anything like, "My brotha!" from him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on December 22, 2013, 02:09:12 AM
Quote from: Mindflux on December 21, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
SC is probably my 3rd favorite DT Album. 

I would not rate SC that high, but it is the best post- SDOIT album.

Quote from: fllnsprrw on December 21, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
There may be only be a few of us in this camp, at least on these forums, but I belong with those who do not believe Dream Theater is a better band without Mike Portnoy. My obsession with DT has indeed waned a little with his departure. Some of the magic is gone. I still haven't finished watching the new DT bluray...

I agree 100 %

Here is my controversial opinion. I would be surprised if Jordan Rudess stays with DT after the 2015 album tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:15:55 AM

[/quote]
Here is my controversial opinion. I would be surprised if Jordan Rudess stays with DT after the 2015 album tour.
[/quote]

 It´s the second time I read this on the forum this week - not sure if it was you who posted it the first time. Is he this tired of DT to the point of leaving?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 22, 2013, 03:18:13 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2013, 10:09:35 PM
Quote from: moof on December 21, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
Mangini is absolutely amazing... But he'll never be Mike Portnoy

You're right. He'll never add crappy backup vocals that ruin the songs.
I know what you mean, I severely miss his normal backing vocals (Fatal Tragedy, Home, WIMH, TGP, Blind Faith...). The fact that they decided to remedy this by backing tracks in James' voice adds insult to injury.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2013, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:15:55 AM
Is he this tired of DT to the point of leaving?

I really, really doubt it. I mean, considering that he was just as against taking a hiatus as everyone else, when MP suggested it, and seeing how happy and excited he was during the ADTOE tour, constantly posting youtube videos, going out to say hi to the fans and everything, I really don't see where this perceived lack of enthusiasm is coming from. It's sad when a fan loses their enthusiasm for the band, but I feel like that lack of enthusiasm is being projected onto the band, when in reality, they're just fine. Sort of like, "Well, I'm not as into the band's music anymore, so I feel like they're not into their music anymore," when it's not really true. At least that's how it seems to me.

Quote from: Sycsa on December 22, 2013, 03:18:13 AM
I know what you mean, I severely miss his normal backing vocals (Fatal Tragedy, Home, WIMH, TGP, Blind Faith...). The fact that they decided to remedy this by backing tracks in James' voice adds insult to injury.

Yeah, I didn't mind him doing backup vocals. Unfortunately, I think he ended up doing it so much that it made him want to push further and further towards being a front man, when he's really not. And sure, people like Phil Collins can be a drummer and a front man at the same time, but no offense to MP, he's FAR from Phil Collins when it omes to vocal ability. And maybe he was doing it unconsciously, maybe he didn't realize that he was trying to hog the vocal spotlight more and more, but he really was, even if certain aspecs of it were enjoyable to me. Even though I liked his vocal contributions to Constant Motion and Prophets of War, and even the "Day After Day" section, I always felt like they undermined JLB's position in the band. So I can understand why he'd be happy with MP's departure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 22, 2013, 04:26:06 AM
His back up vocals were not the problem.  Him wanting to take time off was the problem and to say that MM should try to sing back u vocals to see if he equals MP is just nonsense. 

Seriously folks there is no turning back.  The band is real happy with MM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on December 22, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2013, 01:54:07 AM
Quote from: Anguyen92 on December 22, 2013, 01:18:00 AM
We may not know about that until they get back into the studio, for their next album, and, all of a sudden, decide to have Mangini to add backup vocals, then we can see what happens then.

Has Mangini ever done vocals, screaming ones for that matter? I mean, if he can sing harmonies, then that shouldn't be a problem, but I really doubt we'll be hearing anything like, "My brotha!" from him.

If Mangini tries to be Mikael Akerfeldt like Portnoy did they'd probably fire him on the spot.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.

I agree with this.  Like almost everything on SFAM Its such a blatant rip off, makes it hard to stomach.   

About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 22, 2013, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.

I agree with this.  Like almost everything on SFAM Its such a blatant rip off, makes it hard to stomach.   

About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Rip-off of what?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 22, 2013, 04:42:42 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On

Couldn't agree more. Such an overrated song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 22, 2013, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.

I agree with this.  Like almost everything on SFAM Its such a blatant rip off, makes it hard to stomach.   

About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Rip-off of what?

I would like to hear this, also. Scenes From A Memory isn't one of my favorite DT albums, but I hardly consider it derivative.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 22, 2013, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.

I agree with this.  Like almost everything on SFAM Its such a blatant rip off, makes it hard to stomach.   

About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Rip-off of what?

I would like to hear this, also. Scenes From A Memory isn't one of my favorite DT albums, but I hardly consider it derivative.

Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 05:30:08 PM
Don't listen to Zappa, or even RATM much, but Tool? That one part in Home? That makes the whole album a ripoff? ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:32:15 PM
Well, maybe not all of it, I take that back.  The little rip off riffs are part of the reason I don't really like SFAM.  That and the cheese.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 05:35:19 PM
:symphonyx:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2013, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 22, 2013, 04:41:16 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 22, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
Here's another controversial opinion: I simply cannot stand The Spirit Carries On, and yet it seems they choose to play it every time I see them.

I agree with this.  Like almost everything on SFAM Its such a blatant rip off, makes it hard to stomach.   

About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Rip-off of what?

I would like to hear this, also. Scenes From A Memory isn't one of my favorite DT albums, but I hardly consider it derivative.

Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.

Nothing on SFAM sounds like RATM at all to me. First time I've ever heard that one!
And there's only one song that sounds sort of Tool influenced, and only because it uses the generic metal scale that every metal band uses, and Tool is the go-to band for any metal that doesn't specifically sound like any other metal band, because Tool is the most bland generic metal band around. :lol
I've never heard any Zappa, but I know the instrumental section from BTL was intentionally inspired by Zappa, and it's one of my favourite parts of the album, so I can't say I have a problem with them drawing inspiration there.  :tup  DT usually does a good job of taking their influences and adding their own signature sound to it.

And TSCO is better than anything by the band that inspired it. Controversial opinions!  :police:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 07:07:51 PM
Tool, bland generic metal? That seems like an odd criticism to me, I've always found them to have a very distinctive sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2013, 07:10:27 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 07:07:51 PM
Tool, bland generic metal? That seems like an odd criticism to me, I've always found them to have a very distinctive sound.

I've only ever recognized them by the distinct lack of any defining characteristics, basically by process of elimination. I guess the lack of defining characteristics is in itself a defining characteristic though. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 22, 2013, 07:20:53 PM
Just not your "cup of tea" blob.  Tool is very unique.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 07:21:47 PM
Interesting. I think their riffs, Carey's drum style, Maynard's vocals are all defining characteristics. That's opinions for you, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 22, 2013, 08:29:58 PM
Tool is most definitely unique. I've heard nothing like them except for Rishloo, who is a complete knockoff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 22, 2013, 08:40:43 PM
Okay, that I don't understand either. :lol  The only Rishloo album I've heard is Feathergun, and it sounds nothing like Tool. Based on that album, actually, it seemed to me like Rishloo was far more diverse in their writing style, though that doesn't necessarily make their music any better or worse.

edit: Perhaps you're thinking of Karnivool? I haven't heard them, but I've heard them compared to Tool before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTFan0789 on December 22, 2013, 09:58:16 PM
While we're still on the subject of Tool, I think that Dany Carey is an AMAZING drummer, but I just don't "get" their music. I've never heard them write a melody, and all Maynard does is talk/whine/yell throughout the songs. I can't in good conscience label him as a "singer", because I've never heard him sing an actual melody.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on December 22, 2013, 10:04:06 PM
I know this is the controversial opinions thread, but honestly, some of these Tool opinions are making my brain hurt. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTFan0789 on December 22, 2013, 10:10:07 PM
Let's just all agree that Tool is a group of talented players who can't write a melody to save their lives and move on.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on December 22, 2013, 10:19:18 PM
Not gonna agree with that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2013, 10:33:52 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Dream Theater has always been about the musicianship first and foremost. They were never about "attitude", and they don't need to pretend to be badass or dark or "metal". They are what they are, and they deserve all the respect in the world for it. There are many metal bands out there who need that attitude because they need something to back up their mediocre playing. Dream Theater's music speaks for itself, and they don't need to be covered in tattoos and be obnoxiously outgoing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 23, 2013, 12:15:44 AM
 Just to clarify my opinion a few posts above, I don´t like The Spirit Carries On, but love all other songs on SFAM. I don´t think they copied anything on that album. If anything, there are several references to the melodies and riffs from Metropolis Part I, which I quit enjoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 23, 2013, 01:10:29 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on December 23, 2013, 12:15:44 AM
Just to clarify my opinion a few posts above, I don´t like The Spirit Carries On, but love all other songs on SFAM. I don´t think they copied anything on that album. If anything, there are several references to the melodies and riffs from Metropolis Part I, which I quit enjoy.

I have never liked "Home" :D 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 23, 2013, 01:32:28 AM
I don't dislike TSCO, but it doesn't do anything to me and I've never fully grasped why it's so popular.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2013, 07:05:14 PM
And TSCO is better than anything by the band that inspired it. Controversial opinions!  :police:
Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals and The Wall would like to have a word with you :police:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2013, 01:37:54 AM
Quote from: ? on December 23, 2013, 01:32:28 AM
I don't dislike TSCO, but it doesn't do anything to me and I've never fully grasped why it's so popular.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2013, 07:05:14 PM
And TSCO is better than anything by the band that inspired it. Controversial opinions!  :police:
Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals and The Wall would like to have a word with you :police:

Well they can talk to the hand, because I ain't listening. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 04:07:09 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2013, 10:33:52 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
About DT not letting MP back, MM+DT is pretty much a band devoid of any sort of attitude, just a band of music nerds.  At least Portnoy brought an aspect of showmanship and attitude to the overall brand, and DT is missing that right now.

Dream Theater has always been about the musicianship first and foremost. They were never about "attitude", and they don't need to pretend to be badass or dark or "metal". They are what they are, and they deserve all the respect in the world for it. There are many metal bands out there who need that attitude because they need something to back up their mediocre playing. Dream Theater's music speaks for itself, and they don't need to be covered in tattoos and be obnoxiously outgoing.

I wouldn't call 'attitude' a need.  You're right, they don't need to hide behind the ''metal attitude'' to make up for dud playing.  But I think the MP 'attitude' stretches beyond outgoing, tatooness.  Its something thats missing from the music too, and I don't think the band is any better for having lost that dynamic. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 23, 2013, 04:08:40 AM
Sometimes I feel like Blob is controversial for the sake of controversial.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2013, 04:18:41 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 23, 2013, 04:08:40 AM
Sometimes I feel like Blob is controversial for the sake of controversial.  :lol

I swear I'm not! :lol I just have very different musical tastes to prog fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 23, 2013, 04:34:33 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 23, 2013, 04:08:40 AM
Sometimes I feel like Blob is controversial for the sake of controversial.  :lol

 If this is brought up by Blob saying DT is better than Pink Floyd, then count me in as controversial as well. Try as I might, I was never able to get into Floyd much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on December 23, 2013, 05:16:13 AM
I'm a bit with Blob there too (although I love Gilmour's tone)  - and of course PF's best album is A Momentary Lapse of Reason    ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 23, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.
Most DT albums are chock full of references, obvious inspirations. With that mentality you could call their entire library of music a giant ripoff. They always had their own sound, but they never shied away from showing their influences and talking about them. I don't think that lessens their music, on the contrary, it gives it even more depth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 06:43:09 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 23, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.
Most DT albums are chock full of references, obvious inspirations. With that mentality you could call their entire library of music a giant ripoff. They always had their own sound, but they never shied away from showing their influences and talking about them. I don't think that lessens their music, on the contrary, it gives it even more depth.

Cool.  I agree with you, its just something that bothers me about music, especially what I find in prog bands.  I remember seeing a chart during the making of some Between the Buried and Me album, and one of the songs was like:

Meshuggah riff x4
Megadeth Chorus
Dream Theater Instrumental section
etc.

That shit just irks me, it seems so counter-progressive, if that makes sense.  I saw a similar thing in Liquid Drum Theater where MP broke down, I think it was Home, in a similar way.  I guess thats where my disdain for SFAM came from.  I get that its 'references' and 'nods' or whatever, but it just seems cheap to me.  Opinions, assholes, etc. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 23, 2013, 06:47:57 AM
I think SFAM is one of the DT albums with least obvious references to other bands and in my view Octavarium is the album on which DT wore their influences on their sleeves most blatantly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 06:50:32 AM
Yeah.  I think the Home breakdown I was talking about on LDT was what set it concrete for me, but now that you mention it I'm inclined to agree with you.  I have a feeling if I watched that segment again it probably wouldn't even be that bad :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 23, 2013, 06:52:02 AM
Quote from: ? on December 23, 2013, 06:47:57 AM
I think SFAM is one of the DT albums with least obvious references to other bands and in my view Octavarium is the album on which DT wore their influences on their sleeves most blatantly.

 Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 06:52:36 AM
Quote from: DTFan0789 on December 22, 2013, 10:10:07 PM
Let's just all agree that Tool is a group of talented players who can't write a melody to save their lives and move on.  ;)

Stinkfist has a melody that pretty much defines the post-grunge, alt scene of the 90's for me.  You should listen to it, its quite a beautiful melody in that chorus there. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2013, 06:54:26 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 06:43:09 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 23, 2013, 06:09:50 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 22, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
Rage Against the Machine, Tool and the obligatory Zappa rips in there. Hard.  I must apologise for the Spirit Carries On claim; I was getting at the John & Theresa Solo spot thing in Live Scenes; Great Gig in the Sky much.
Most DT albums are chock full of references, obvious inspirations. With that mentality you could call their entire library of music a giant ripoff. They always had their own sound, but they never shied away from showing their influences and talking about them. I don't think that lessens their music, on the contrary, it gives it even more depth.

Cool.  I agree with you, its just something that bothers me about music, especially what I find in prog bands.  I remember seeing a chart during the making of some Between the Buried and Me album, and one of the songs was like:

Meshuggah riff x4
Megadeth Chorus
Dream Theater Instrumental section
etc.

That shit just irks me, it seems so counter-progressive, if that makes sense.  I saw a similar thing in Liquid Drum Theater where MP broke down, I think it was Home, in a similar way.  I guess thats where my disdain for SFAM came from.  I get that its 'references' and 'nods' or whatever, but it just seems cheap to me.  Opinions, assholes, etc. 

That's not exclusive to SFAM, it's something they've done for all DT albums (at least the recent ones that we've seen in studio footage for to see charts). And the influences on many other albums are no more/less obvious.
It doesn't mean they're actively copying or imitating other bands, it's just naming a section for charting purposes based on a vibe. With certain bands being so influential to DT's sound, there are always going to be sections that end up being reminiscent of their influences. Often it's just like a fan saying "this section reminds me of Tool/Floyd/Rush" etc. And I'm sure DT12 had a lot of sections named after Rush! :biggrin:
I can't remember what some of the sections on the DT12 charts were called, but I'm sure there were some named after bands.
There's a section in BAI that I recall was named the Journey section (I think the slow guitar lead near the start of the instrumental section before the mellow section). It doesn't really remind me of Journey, but it reminded them of Journey, so that's what they called it. No big deal. It doesn't have any bearing on the final album. It's highly likely that any musical section is going to be vaguely reminiscent of something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 23, 2013, 07:05:47 AM
Yeah, good call.  I think my musical taste has strayed quite a bit since I was last here :lol I should probably stop posting in this thread.  Too easy to be controversial about a band when you're in a place dedicated to their existence :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on December 23, 2013, 01:18:08 PM
Home sounds at times like Forty-Six & Two, but most of it doesn't sound like Tool.

Quote from: Jaffa on December 22, 2013, 10:04:06 PM
I know this is the controversial opinions thread, but honestly, some of these Tool opinions are making my brain hurt. :lol

Yeah. Maybe they don't have that many melodies, but their focus is more on the rhythms, which is one reason I love them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 23, 2013, 01:25:44 PM
My controversial opinion of the day: I'm listening to the ToT demos right now, and you can soooo tell how their writing process goes. Those songs are often standalone instrumentals where then they took out some stuff JR played, and then plugged JLB in instead. Same thing happened to me with the BCSL stems, where several songs are actually stronger (IMHO) as instrumentals than with vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 23, 2013, 01:47:11 PM
I want them to write an album where every member writes lyrics for 2 songs each (totaling 10), BEFORE the songs are written.

I want to hear what happens when they try to write a song around lyrics, instead of writing lyrics for a song. Rush does this, and I could easily say that Rush has a lot of stuff in their discography that equals or betters stuff within Dream Theater's discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 01:49:19 PM
You know, I like Rush, but generally I'd be hard pressed to rank any of their songs over any DT songs. (this is in general, obviously there are exceptions)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 23, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
Dream Theater might be my 2nd or 3rd favorite band, and I can't think of a single DT song I like better than (just to save time, I'll only list a few songs I consider "epics"):

-By-tor and the Snowdog
-Fountain of Lamneth
-The Necromancer
-Cygnus X-1
-Hemispheres
-Jacob's Ladder
-La Villa Strangiato
-2112
-Natural Science
-Clockwork Angels
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 06:15:42 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 01:49:19 PM
You know, I like Rush, but generally I'd be hard pressed to rank any of their songs over any DT songs.

This, and I would say without exceptions. But writing an album around lyrics does sound like a cool idea and something for them to consider and play with, maybe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 07:20:45 PM
No exceptions? You must really dislike Rush. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 08:29:00 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 07:20:45 PM
No exceptions? You must really dislike Rush. :lol

No, I like Rush. But I LOVE Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:39:41 PM
Huh. It's just hard for me to imagine that there's not even one great Rush song you'd like over a less-than-stellar DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:39:41 PM
Huh. It's just hard for me to imagine that there's not even one great Rush song you'd like over a less-than-stellar DT song.

Well, okay, there are some exceptions. But I'd say 90 - 95% of DT's catalogue I'd take over any Rush song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 23, 2013, 08:59:55 PM
I feel like JP lays down/mixes in (not sure the appropriate terminology) too many guitar tracks for specific songs.  There are probably some exceptions, but there is one JP and I'm fine with one guitar track (plus any effects he'd like to bring in).  I feel it takes away particularly from Myung as his bass, to my ears, gets lost under the guitar and drum tracks (this has gotten better with ADToE and DT12). 

This isn't just a DT thing.  In "Suspended Animation" he does a lot of that as well.  What's interesting is Dave LaRue is the bass player but is mostly lost (again to my ears..and this is JPs solo album)...but with Steve Morse, LaRue really shines and has a lot of moments to shine.  I don't need the bass to shine, and JP writes some of the best riffs/solos I've ever heard, I guess I just like one primary guitar track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 09:11:13 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

Same here. I still enjoy Rush more than most bands of their era. Definitely more than Led Zeppelin. (Controversial opinion on Rush #1)
The funny thing is that one of my absolute favorite Rush songs is Roll The Bones. The rap in it is one of the best Rush moments, ever. (Controversial opinion on Rush #2)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 09:16:57 PM
Ha, my favorite Rush album is actually Roll The Bones. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Aythesryche on December 23, 2013, 09:35:28 PM
I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

It's one of the most common self inflicted ignorances of those who like any kind of music. Fortunately on this forum, people's disagreements and distaste for others opinions are most of the time conveyed with more civility and respect than other places.

What's also interesting to me is if you would read a post on a Justin Beiber forum about how much DT sucks and how Beiber rules, you might find you have more in common with the Beiber fan than you realize. Those peoples opinions stem from the same place that we conjure up our opinions; what moves us, what we appreciate through acquired taste and incorporated into our individuality. 

Pretty much any statement that you could make about anything that's subjective is controversial in nature. Personally, I enjoy when people fight over it all and argue about who's right, who's wrong, who agrees and who suggests they don't care. It's all entertaining.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on December 23, 2013, 10:10:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

I thought I was the only DT nut who doesn't love Rush with a passion- cue Mindcrime voice..................I feel better now .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 10:12:03 PM
Quote from: Aythesryche on December 23, 2013, 09:35:28 PM
I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

Yeah, but when he said "less than stellar" and I thought about the songs I consider "less than stellar" I pretty much assumed that the songs I was thinking of were not the same songs he was thinking of.

Except Raw Dog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2013, 10:13:24 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on December 23, 2013, 10:10:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 08:56:30 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much me. Rush has never really become a "great" band for me.

I thought I was the only DT nut who doesn't love Rush - cue Mindcrime voice..................I feel better now .

Until this page, I thought I was the only one!

I'm still pretty sure I'm the only DT fan on this forum who doesn't like ANY other prog at all though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 23, 2013, 10:19:03 PM
Quote from: Aythesryche on December 23, 2013, 09:35:28 PM
I find it interesting how a lot people are so caught up in their own personal taste in things, it blinds them to the fact that not everyone will like them exactly the way you do. What one "less-than-stellar" DT song to you might be a great one to another. Some people just like DT that much.

It's one of the most common self inflicted ignorances of those who like any kind of music. Fortunately on this forum, people's disagreements and distaste for others opinions are most of the time conveyed with more civility and respect than other places.

What's also interesting to me is if you would read a post on a Justin Beiber forum about how much DT sucks and how Beiber rules, you might find you have more in common with the Beiber fan than you realize. Those peoples opinions stem from the same place that we conjure up our opinions; what moves us, what we appreciate through acquired taste and incorporated into our individuality. 

Pretty much any statement that you could make about anything that's subjective is controversial in nature. Personally, I enjoy when people fight over it all and argue about who's right, who's wrong, who agrees and who suggests they don't care. It's all entertaining.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2013, 10:25:19 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 23, 2013, 10:13:24 PM

Until this page, I thought I was the only one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQnwiATK0E#t=18
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2013, 06:13:02 AM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 23, 2013, 08:59:55 PM
I feel like JP lays down/mixes in (not sure the appropriate terminology) too many guitar tracks for specific songs.  There are probably some exceptions, but there is one JP and I'm fine with one guitar track (plus any effects he'd like to bring in).  I feel it takes away particularly from Myung as his bass, to my ears, gets lost under the guitar and drum tracks (this has gotten better with ADToE and DT12). 

That plays into my comment about DT earlier on this page, where I think DT writes their songs as instrumentals, and then James comes in and sings over them. When something is an instrumental, having a doubled guitar is a very natural thing to do because it fills out the sonic space more. But when you then put the vocals over it, it becomes too cluttered, and that's a criticism I've had with DT for a long time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 07:49:03 AM
Prompted by the FII demo thread:

DT need to get back to the mentality that not everything they record deserves to be on an album, and should start trying to do more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

"Not everything we record should make the album" - almost every other band / artist on the planet recognizes and is comfortable with admitting that.

Apparently not DT.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on December 24, 2013, 09:45:25 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 07:49:03 AM
more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 24, 2013, 09:47:40 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on December 19, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
DT made a mistake not letting MP back in the band. Anyone said that?

I think JLB said that in an interview.

























:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on December 24, 2013, 09:45:25 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 07:49:03 AM
more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]
It was definitely a step in the right direction, but I still think there's a bit they could have done without. The songs are good, but for me the instrumental are really well-planned, and  "The Illumination Theory" is easily the most incohesive epic they've done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on December 24, 2013, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on December 24, 2013, 09:45:25 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 07:49:03 AM
more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

Yes, and to me that's exactly what they did with DT12. =]
It was definitely a step in the right direction, but I still think there's a bit they could have done without. The songs are good, but for me the instrumental are really well-planned, and  "The Illumination Theory" is easily the most incohesive epic they've done.

TIT. That acronym would win anything anyday.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 10:21:58 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 07:49:03 AM
Prompted by the FII demo thread:

DT need to get back to the mentality that not everything they record deserves to be on an album, and should start trying to do more cohesive albums with more quality than quantity in general.

"Not everything we record should make the album" - almost every other band / artist on the planet recognizes and is comfortable with admitting that.

Apparently not DT.

Yeah, but most other bands write a surplus of songs anyway. Most other bands just write and write and write, and after they end up with more material than they need, they pick what's best and what's suited for the album. DT obviously doesn't work like that. Heck, I'm not sure how many of these other bands write their songs in studio. Since DT does their writing in studio, they obviously can't just sit there writing excess material for the fun of it.

But because of these circumstances, I think DT's albums have always been very cohesive. In fact, I&W and FII are the only albums (well, and WDADU) they wrote where they had excess material. And when they were writing FII, they specifically wanted a double album, so they needed the extra material to fill out the 2nd CD. And I mean, who knows? Maybe if they were given a green light on their creative freedom, and they decided to complete the 20 minute Metropolis Pt. 2, they would've put it on the album and got rid of a couple of the other songs.

But as it stands, aside from the "Intended FII" which never even came to fruition, all of DT's albums have been extremely cohesive and frankly, DT IS the one band where everything they record SHOULD make the album, even most of the stuff that didn't. Look at their B-Sides. Between To Live Forever, Raise The Knife and Speak To Me, the only songs that I'd say aren't album-worthy are Cover My Eyes and Raw Dog. That's 2 out of their 100+ song catalogue.

But you know, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I would be happy if they ended up writing excess of material, then picked and chose which songs they think should be on the album. It's just that the songs that would end up getting left out would probably be awesome regardless, and I'm sure they'd end up seeing the light of day in one way or another.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on December 24, 2013, 10:50:46 AM
In the video fan Q & A Petrucci stated they had many different riffs and melodies they didn't use, maybe not entire songs per say but they still have a collection of ideas and music that they chose not to put on DT12 and save for a later date or never use.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 10:21:58 AM
Yeah, but most other bands write a surplus of songs anyway. Most other bands just write and write and write, and after they end up with more material than they need...

I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:10:38 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:00:40 AM
I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.

I do wonder just how meticulously they plan out their songs. I mean, to they actually go, "Well, what we have now ends up to 72 minutes, our final song should be one of our simple 6 - 7 minute songs."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:17:16 AM
I wouldn't be surprised. John's writing is increasingly formuliac.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:22:55 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:17:16 AM
I wouldn't be surprised. John's writing is increasingly formuliac.

DT has always had several song "types" that their catalogue fits into.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
They definitely do now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:25:58 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:24:51 AM
They definitely do now.

They did even in the 90s. Most of their songs could be put into one of a handful of "DT song types" even back then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 24, 2013, 11:26:17 AM
I think they do a couple of jams, choose riffs they like to expand upon and go from there..they structure then record, even then they'll add stuff, MP adding the queen vocals is a good example, so is the Shaman patch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 24, 2013, 11:26:17 AM
I think they do a couple of jams, choose riffs they like to expand upon and go from there..they structure then record, even then they'll add stuff, MP adding the queen vocals is a good example, so is the Shaman patch.

Well yeah, but I do wonder, when they were writing BITS, did they know how long it would end up before actually writing it? Did they have a framework in mind?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2013, 11:29:31 AM
95% of band write formulaic.  I laugh when people complain about this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 11:29:31 AM
95% of band write formulaic.  I laugh when people complain about this.

Because being in that 5 percent that were willing to just go anywhere defying genre and formula was what brought many of us to DT to begin with  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 11:29:31 AM
95% of band write formulaic.  I laugh when people complain about this.

Because being in that 5 percent that were willing to just go anywhere defying genre and formula was what brought many of us to DT to begin with  :lol

Like I said, they've had their "formulaic" songs since the 90s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
I never said they never had any formuliac songs before, dude.

You're not making a point, TGP. You're just misconstruing my opinions to try and invalidate them.

Again.

Seems to be a pretty big theme with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:43:20 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
I never said they never had any formuliac songs before, dude.

You're not making a point, TGP. You're just misconstruing my opinions to try and invalidate them.


You said they've been very formulaic lately. And I disagree with that. I don't think DT is any more formulaic with their songs now than they were 20 years ago. Sure back then they might have had more variety stylistically, but their basic song archetypes still existed even back then. I can pretty much take any DT song and fit it into one of maybe 6 or 8 categories of DT songs, in terms of style and structure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:51:27 AM
It's one thing to retroactively categorize things, but that has nothing to do with whether a song was created by formula.

Learning to Live and Breaking All Illusions are both "epics". Both are, in my opinion, great songs. Learning to Live was the byproduct of exploration, throwing genre and formula to the wind. Breaking All Illusions, in contrast, is the byproduct of writing a song based on the Learning to Live formula.

While I like both songs, stuff like LtL goes a much greater distance in grabbing me and holding my interest. 

I'd probably enjoy Dream Theater a lot more if they still did stuff like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenheart on December 24, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_5775_1375662239.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Ravenheart on December 24, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_5775_1375662239.jpg)

I still don't get this avatar reply shit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 12:05:01 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Ravenheart on December 24, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_5775_1375662239.jpg)

I still don't get this avatar reply shit.

:lol Yeah, I was about to ask what this is all about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 11:29:31 AM
95% of band write formulaic.  I laugh when people complain about this.

Because being in that 5 percent that were willing to just go anywhere defying genre and formula was what brought many of us to DT to begin with  :lol

 :lol

Joe you know that bands don't really stray much, there are the few bands that defy that and change writing styles recording styles but in general they have a formula.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2013, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 12:05:01 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Ravenheart on December 24, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_5775_1375662239.jpg)

I still don't get this avatar reply shit.

:lol Yeah, I was about to ask what this is all about.

It's funny as all hell.  You have a stubborn look and they are calling you stubborn.  I'm on your stubborn side as well. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 12:22:06 PM
 :rollin I suppose, haha. I didn't pick the avatar. It picked me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 24, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Ravenheart on December 24, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_5775_1375662239.jpg)

I still don't get this avatar reply shit.

I immediately thought it was sort of a "balls in your court" thing.  Next person to reply in the current debate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 24, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
I immediately thought it was sort of a "balls in your court" thing.  Next person to reply in the current debate.

Funny thing is, I actually was well on my way to do that, but when I saw that, I decided to just let it go, no matter how much I wanted to counterpoint. Merry Christmas, haha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
:lol

Joe you know that bands don't really stray much, there are the few bands that defy that and change writing styles recording styles but in general they have a formula.
Well, is that my fault? Or DT's fault, for fostering the general expectation that they were a band that gave you more for so many years?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Okay, here's my controversial opinion of the day, and I swear, PC, I'm not picking on you, nor am I singling out anyone or trying to insult them. This is just a general statement based on my personal feelings. Regarding how polarizing DT12 has been, and the kinds of comments I've been reading lately (for a few years actually)... I've been reading all sorts of comments, from "DT's music has become formulaic" (as above), to them getting stale, to "The band doesn't seem enthusiastic," to "They've lost the magic," etc. etc. And yet, there are still plenty of people who are saying, DT is better than they have been for a while. DT12 is a breath of fresh air, and stuff like that. Like I said, in my opinion, I think the latter group is right, I definitely think that DT are still every bit as prolific and enthusiastic as they've been throughout their whole career. (obviously there are various ups and downs, but those are minor, IMO)

So, what I'm saying is, I think that the former group of people--all the nay sayers who think that DT has lost its magic and they don't seem enthusiastic--are just projecting their own feelings onto the band. Maybe those people are the ones who lost their passion and enthusiasm for the band, and the only reason they still love I&W, Awake and all the classics is because they grew up with those albums. So it's nostalgia, sentimental connection due to personal life experiences of having grown up with that music. Which is okay, but they say that DT's current stuff is not as good as I&W or Awake, and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think that no matter what DT puts out, no matter how good the music is, or how energetic the band is, to those people, nothing will ever be as good as the classics and nothing will ever make the band feel fresh and enthusiastic again. Sorry guys, but my humble controversial theory is that if anyone's lost the magic, it's you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 24, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
I don't like Awake. I feel like they tried too hard to capitalize on the alt rock trend of the day, and a lot of the songs are just lacking noteable melodies. There's not a single song that feels "epic" to me, while the previous album has 3; TtT, LtL and Metropolis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 01:51:33 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
:lol

Joe you know that bands don't really stray much, there are the few bands that defy that and change writing styles recording styles but in general they have a formula.
Well, is that my fault? Or DT's fault, for fostering the general expectation that they were a band that gave you more for so many years?

They did?  How so?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 02:06:24 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
So, what I'm saying is, I think that the former group of people--all the nay sayers who think that DT has lost its magic and they don't seem enthusiastic--are just projecting their own feelings onto the band. Maybe those people are the ones who lost their passion and enthusiasm for the band, and the only reason they still love I&W, Awake and all the classics is because they grew up with those albums. So it's nostalgia, sentimental connection due to personal life experiences of having grown up with that music.

I've gotta ask, Pretender, do you ever stop to think that maybe other people hold valid reasons for thinking the way they do, and that maybe you are the one being too sentimental about the band? To me, it's fairly obvious that Dream Theater have changed quite a bit over the years, everything from how they write songs to how the approach lyrics; from how they value production to how they view touring.

For what it's worth, I got into DT around Train of Thought. That was a weird album for them, but at the time it was easy to still be excited about them because it wasn't as clear as it is now that DT had ceased to be big innovators of progressive music, and it was easy to dismiss ToT as a one-off. But since then, it's become pretty obvious that they're going to stick to the script. They still produce quality stuff that I enjoy, but because they stick so much to the formula, it's hard for me to be as excited bout them as I am about other music in the genre. 

This has nothing to do with me changing or projecting unrealistic expectations on the band, since I've *always* been someone who's going to gravitate to music that pushes the envelope.

In other words, nice try at "not" singling me out, but you're still wrong  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
:lol

Joe you know that bands don't really stray much, there are the few bands that defy that and change writing styles recording styles but in general they have a formula.
Well, is that my fault? Or DT's fault, for fostering the general expectation that they were a band that gave you more for so many years?

Well lets use this as an example.  Do you think the last 2 albums are similar musically?  I don't think so which means you don't like the style or  writing, of production of the last 2 albums.  I love 6DOIT.  Sonically, it's a different album.  It is different from how they wrote songs?  Not much.  The did add the heavy element with The Glass Prison. 

I just think you are moving in a musical direction away from DT's style.  Nothing wrong with that.  I'm a music whore and for example I love Steven Wilson which is far away from DT but I get to choose, depending on my mood what I want t listen too.  That's all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:13:02 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
So, what I'm saying is, I think that the former group of people--all the nay sayers who think that DT has lost its magic and they don't seem enthusiastic--are just projecting their own feelings onto the band. Maybe those people are the ones who lost their passion and enthusiasm for the band, and the only reason they still love I&W, Awake and all the classics is because they grew up with those albums. So it's nostalgia, sentimental connection due to personal life experiences of having grown up with that music. Which is okay, but they say that DT's current stuff is not as good as I&W or Awake, and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think that no matter what DT puts out, no matter how good the music is, or how energetic the band is, to those people, nothing will ever be as good as the classics and nothing will ever make the band feel fresh and enthusiastic again. Sorry guys, but my humble controversial theory is that if anyone's lost the magic, it's you.

I see where you're coming from but quality of the music aside, just sonically it sounds like they've been releasing the same album 3 or 4 times in a row now. Sure there are some parts of songs that stray a little from the band's usual style but overall the songs seem to fit the same mold. From my perspective, you could mix and match any 80 minute grouping of songs from SC to DT and nothing outside of maybe TDEN would sound like it doesn't belong with the others. They've been using the same bag of tricks and it's starting to show. For as much fun as we might poke at a band like Nickelback or ACDC who seem to write the same song over and over again, DT has pretty much become the prog metal version of just that. I'll listen to a new album when it comes out but I've yet to hear something from the last few releases that doesn't make me go "yep, sounds like a Dream Theater song". Those older albums are special because they all have their own identity and DT was clearly a band that was exploring new sounds. That's why the shift in sound between albums is noticeable. Nowadays? There doesn't seem to be much of a shift at all. If you really do happen to like their sound now then I suppose it is great but repetition starts to bore me personally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 02:17:29 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
:lol

Joe you know that bands don't really stray much, there are the few bands that defy that and change writing styles recording styles but in general they have a formula.
Well, is that my fault? Or DT's fault, for fostering the general expectation that they were a band that gave you more for so many years?

Well lets use this as an example.  Do you think the last 2 albums are similar musically?  I don't think so which means you don't like the style or  writing, of production of the last 2 albums.  I love 6DOIT.  Sonically, it's a different album.  It is different from how they wrote songs?  Not much.  The did add the heavy element with The Glass Prison. 

I just think you are moving in a musical direction away from DT's style.  Nothing wrong with that.  I'm a music whore and for example I love Steven Wilson which is far away from DT but I get to choose, depending on my mood what I want t listen too.  That's all.
I liked ADTOE, but it was as formulaic as it gets for DT.

I thought DT12 was "just OK". At times it sounds like DT, at other times it sounds way too much like Rush. I feel even the lyrics have a really Rush feel to them. I'm really not big on that.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel like I might like Systematic Chaos the best of the Roadrunner albums. Though it's not a great album, I feel like that was the last time DT were really pushing themselves to go outside their usual comfort zone. Had they spent more time polishing the songs, and honing down the lyrics and vocal melodies and production, it might have been a much better album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do? I not talking about Rudess getting a new toy (although that is the closest they seem to get) or JP trying out a new amp either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 24, 2013, 02:26:35 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on December 24, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
I don't like Awake. I feel like they tried too hard to capitalize on the alt rock trend of the day, and a lot of the songs are just lacking noteable melodies. There's not a single song that feels "epic" to me, while the previous album has 3; TtT, LtL and Metropolis.

Alt rock?  Explain this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 02:42:10 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 02:06:24 PM
I've gotta ask, Pretender, do you ever stop to think that maybe other people hold valid reasons for thinking the way they do, and that maybe you are the one being too sentimental about the band? To me, it's fairly obvious that Dream Theater have changed quite a bit over the years, everything from how they write songs to how the approach lyrics; from how they value production to how they view touring.

That's kind of a silly question. Of course I consider people's reasons. But if you must know, I'm the type of person who believes that a lot of the time, people's reasons for things are misunderstood, or mislead by emotion. Emotions, such as, for example, the aforementioned nostalgia. And I'm not saying that I'm absolved of this, necessarily. But I am willing to admit that maybe when I give my reasoning for a certain opinion, maybe deep down inside, my true reasoning is completely different and I just don't realize it. I can't always explain why I feel a certain way. I can try to the best of my ability, but there's always a chance that I'm missing something, and I think that other people are the same way.

Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 02:06:24 PM
In other words, nice try at "not" singling me out, but you're still wrong  :biggrin:

About you, maybe. But you're not the only nay-sayer I've heard, and my opinion still applies to them. Of course, all of them will disagree with me, because they all have their own reasons for how they feel. But some things being said are completely baseless. And this mostly regards, as I mentioned, people who say the band isn't enthusiastic anymore, or that they're stagnant, or whatever. I mean, FFS, there's people theorizing that Jordan Rudess will be quitting the band after the next album. And I respect Polarbear's opinion, but it just baffles me how he can possibly think that. Have we already forgotten the kind of excitement and enthusiasm they were all showing during the ADTOE tour? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this enthusiasm was faked by Rudess, or that it waned since recording DT12.

Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:13:02 PM
I see where you're coming from but quality of the music aside, just sonically it sounds like they've been releasing the same album 3 or 4 times in a row now.

Sorry, brother, I really, really, REALLY have to disagree with you on that. The only think the RR albums have in common is that there was a noticeable shift toward a heavier, more energetic sound overall. In terms of genre, yes, it's hard to dispute that they've been putting out what can be solidly classified as "Progressive Metal", (as opposed to certain songs they've done in the past that were pretty much pop-rock). But as far as the genre of "Progressive Metal" goes, the past 4 albums have been extremely diverse and different from one another. The moods, the emphasis on riffs, solos, chords, etc. is very different in each album. The difference is especially dramatic when comparing MP era to MM era, and I'm not JUST talking about the difference in drumming.

Honestly, when comparing the overall sound and style, I'd say that 6DOIT and 8VM have more in common than any of the RR era albums. If I heard 6DOIT and 8VM songs for the first time on Shuffle, I honestly would not be able to tell you which song comes from which album. In fact, this applies to TOT as well. Again, if you were to mesh all the songs from those 3 albums into one playlist, the only stylistic difference I'd notice is how heavy the TOT songs are, and in that respect, I'd guess that all the TOT songs, as well as TGP, TROAE and Panic Attack all belonged on the same album.

And I really can't say that about any of the RR era albums. There isn't a single song on BC&SL that sounds anything like something on SC.
Between ADTOE and DT12, I may guess that  This is the Life might belong to DT12, if I didn't know better. But that's it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 24, 2013, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 24, 2013, 02:26:35 PM
Alt rock?  Explain this one.

Alternative rock? Grungy, simplistic, heavy rock music? The best example for me is Lie, a song that I despise, but even a song like The Mirror, which could have been comparable to the proggy and upbeat songs that I love on I&W (ex, Take the Time), were made kind of simplistic, very heavy, and less upbeat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 03:06:47 PM
Hey, I really liked Jordan's new album with Levin and Minneman. To me, that sounded very fresh, and not formulaic at all.

So it's really not a case of me just being nostalgic and not liking the guys no matter what they do. I still think they can throw down when they really try, and LMR is a great example of that for Jordan.

But for DT, they are more than happy to just stick to the script. And that works for them, since the majority of their fans are satisfied with that. I realize I'm in the minority with wanting them to push themselves a bit more. That's why I'm posting this in the "controversial opinions" thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 24, 2013, 03:10:58 PM
I'm kind of in the middle. I'd like them to branch out from "typical" DT, but at the same time I still enjoy pretty much all of their music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 02:42:10 PM
Sorry, brother, I really, really, REALLY have to disagree with you on that. The only think the RR albums have in common is that there was a noticeable shift toward a heavier, more energetic sound overall. In terms of genre, yes, it's hard to dispute that they've been putting out what can be solidly classified as "Progressive Metal", (as opposed to certain songs they've done in the past that were pretty much pop-rock). But as far as the genre of "Progressive Metal" goes, the past 4 albums have been extremely diverse and different from one another. The moods, the emphasis on riffs, solos, chords, etc. is very different in each album. The difference is especially dramatic when comparing MP era to MM era, and I'm not JUST talking about the difference in drumming.

We must have 4 very, very different CDs then. You'd need to split the finest of hairs in order to call those albums "extremely diverse and different from one another".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
I feel like Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are pretty similar albums, except that Black Clouds gives more focus to the metal part in "progressive metal". ADToE is completely different from any other album in the RR era and well DT is also kinda in a league of its own.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
We must have 4 very, very different CDs then. You'd need to split the finest of hairs in order to call those albums "extremely diverse and different from one another".

Again, depends on compared to what. I think SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are much more similar to one another than the RR albums. Now, if you compare the RR albums to I&W, Awake, FII and SFAM, then yeah, compared to those 4, RR albums are very similar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 03:49:03 PM
I think Six Degrees kind of stands on its own so I wouldn't put it with TOT or even Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 03:53:42 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 03:49:03 PM
I think Six Degrees kind of stands on its own so I wouldn't put it with TOT or even Octavarium.

Fair enough, but I disagree. And I happen to think that SC stands on its own, so I wouldn't put it with any of the other RR albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 24, 2013, 03:54:55 PM
I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 24, 2013, 03:54:55 PM
I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.

Or this. Definitely this. I mean, if I listen to one album after another, I can easily point out what makes every album unique and what elements they possess that the others don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 04:18:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Or this. Definitely this. I mean, if I listen to one album after another, I can easily point out what makes every album unique and what elements they possess that the others don't.

The only unique things on DT12 are the horrible mixing and production.


:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 04:21:53 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 24, 2013, 04:18:42 PM
The only unique things on DT12 are the horrible mixing and production.


:neverusethis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 06:01:43 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 03:26:58 PM
We must have 4 very, very different CDs then. You'd need to split the finest of hairs in order to call those albums "extremely diverse and different from one another".

Again, depends on compared to what. I think SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are much more similar to one another than the RR albums. Now, if you compare the RR albums to I&W, Awake, FII and SFAM, then yeah, compared to those 4, RR albums are very similar.

I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3. Though I do think that compared to DT's first 4 albums, SFAM through DT12 all share a similar "modern DT"-esque vein.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 06:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 06:01:43 PM
I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3.
And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 06:01:43 PM
Though I do think that compared to DT's first 4 albums, SFAM through DT12 all share a similar "modern DT"-esque vein.

Is that vein named Jordan Rudess?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 06:41:13 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 06:01:43 PM
I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3.
And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

That's quite the cherry picking there. Yes, TOT is a one-dimensional album but there are a multitude of songs on Six Degrees and Octavarium that sound nothing like one another. In fact, Six Degrees is quite a diverse album in its own right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
In fact, Six Degrees is quite a diverse album in its own right.

Well, that's part of my point exactly. SDOIT and Octavarium (IMO) are both extremely diverse albums, and most of the songs on them are nothing like one another. So because of that, the only thing I can possibly use to link them is the instrument tone, JLB's timbre and range, and the kinds of sounds that JR uses. And in my opinion those factors are all very similar on the three albums, I could be wrong, but if someone tried to explain to me how JP's guitar tone differs from one to another, then I'm sure they could also easily explain to me how his guitar tone differs on the RR albums as well.
Anyway, point is, because DT's music is diverse in general, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find Misunderstood, Disappear, These Walls and Sacrificed Sons, As I am and Endless Sacrifice on one album, even thought they're all vastly different from one another.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 07:16:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 06:41:13 PM
And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

For one thing, I think that their song structure, production, and melodies are all quite different from each other. Put those three together and we have another SDOIT on our hands ;D And think of it vice versa, The Glass Prison would sound quite strange on 8VM, as strange as how I Walk Beside You would sound on ToT. But this is a nitpicky way of thinking.  You can use this nitpicky way of thinking with just about every DT album, though; as stated by Orcus, DT is very diverse, and I'd say the only album they have where the style is limited would be ToT.

Quote

Is that vein named Jordan Rudess?  :lol

 :lol Didn't think of it that way, I suppose you're right!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 07:25:44 PM
To be fair to TGP, I'm actually arguing that the latest 4 albums are not really that diverse and have interchangeable songs. I just disagreed about Six Degrees since there is some style hopping between all of the tracks, although I believe that is the last album they've done that has done that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 07:39:52 PM
I do agree with that. SDOIT is the only album imo where there isn't really a distinct "style."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 07:16:35 PM
For one thing, I think that their song structure, production, and melodies are all quite different from each other. Put those three together and we have another SDOIT on our hands ;D And think of it vice versa, The Glass Prison would sound quite strange on 8VM, as strange as how I Walk Beside You would sound on ToT. But this is a nitpicky way of thinking.  You can use this nitpicky way of thinking with just about every DT album, though; as stated by Orcus, DT is very diverse, and I'd say the only album they have where the style is limited would be ToT.

Honestly, I don't think The Glass Prison actually sounds quite strange on SDOIT. To me, it really stands out like a sore thumb and does not indicate the album's overal sound at all. It would sound a lot more natural on 8VM or especially TOT, if you ask me. Unless you're counting the whole Octave theme, then yeah, maybe it starts on a different root note that doesn't fit into the album, etc. But nuggets aside, I think it's stylistically fairly consistent with TROAE or Panic Attack.

And the thing about song structure and melodies, again, DT being as diverse as they are, even within SDOIT and 8VM, the song structure and melodies are so diverse just within those albums, that I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you which song belongs where, if I had heard them for the first time.

When I first bought Octavarium and listened to These Walls and Never Enough (the only two songs I haven't heard from it at that point) I was VERY surprised. They sounded nothing like what I expected, based on what I've heard of Octavarium at that point.

So yeah, it's not that SDOIT TOT and 8VM sound the same, overall (although I do think that the heavy songs on SDOIT and 8VM sound stylistically consistent with TOT), it's that SDOIT and 8VM are both so diverse that personally, I would not be able to guess which song belonged on which album. I might make a couple right guesses, but I'd also mix up a LOT of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 24, 2013, 07:48:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Maybe those people are the ones who lost their passion and enthusiasm for the band, and the only reason they still love I&W, Awake and all the classics is because they grew up with those albums. So it's nostalgia, sentimental connection due to personal life experiences of having grown up with that music. Which is okay, but they say that DT's current stuff is not as good as I&W or Awake, and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think that no matter what DT puts out, no matter how good the music is, or how energetic the band is, to those people, nothing will ever be as good as the classics and nothing will ever make the band feel fresh and enthusiastic again. Sorry guys, but my humble controversial theory is that if anyone's lost the magic, it's you.

I vastly disagree with this, for me, there's a big, VERY big noticeable difference in songwriting if i compare an album like Images to one of the new albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 08:16:49 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on December 24, 2013, 07:48:05 PM
I vastly disagree with this, for me, there's a big, VERY big noticeable difference in songwriting if i compare an album like Images to one of the new albums.
Allow me to rephrase myself a little.

What would it be like if you never heard I&W (or whatever album made you fall in love with DT)? Like, for me, I love Systematic Chaos. It was the second DT album I ever heard and it played a large role in why I fell in love with the band.
But what if I haven't heard it at the time? I actually bought it on a whim, so what if I happened to pick a different DT album, and haven't had a chance to listen to SC until now? Would I like it nearly as much? I want to say yes, but the truth is, maybe I would, but maybe I wouldn't. When I first listened to and fell in love with the album, I was at a different place in life, different place musically, different state of maturity, etc. So if I had heard SC for the first time now, considering how much I've grown since then, and how much new music I've discovered through all these years, for all I know, SC wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact on me, and maybe I'd consider it an inferior album like a lot of other people here. But it's all completely hypothetical, and I honestly can't give you a definitive answer.
So for someone who's been a fan of I&W for decades, what if they ended up missing out on it somehow, and only heard it for the first time today? Would they still love it as much? I'm sorry, but if anyone tried to give me a 100% definitive answer, it would be baseless, because they hadn't lived out that particular hypothetical situation. Especially if it's their favorite album, because if that's the case, then it's safe to say that it had a big impact on the evolution of their musical tastes. So what would their musical tastes evolve like had they not grown up with the album?
There really is no way of knowing for sure.

And this also brings me to my "it's you" comment. I had a very nice talk with Jaffa about this (although I think it frustrated the hell out of him  :lol). So let me reiterate some of that. It's not about overanalyzing the songwriting, it's about simplifying it to "How does this music make me feel?" and the answer to that can't be quantified. I can explain to you why I love such and such song, and even if you listen to and comprehend all my reasons, chances are, they're not going to change your opinion of the song. I can tell you, "When I hear this song, it makes me tear up, but also makes me smile, it makes me melancholy, but gives me boundless energy at the same time," and even though you might be familiar with the feeling, if you don't associate the feeling with that song, chances are, that's not about to change.
How we experience something comes from within us, not from the absolute existence of the given music. That's why there are polarizing opinions about it. Unless there's a 100% unanimous opinion about something, then it's not absolute. There might be people out there who think DT12 is garbage, and they can't even imagine comparing it to Images and Words. But as long as there are people who love DT12, and who consider it a great album, and who think it's a breath of fresh air and an album they've been waiting for since SDOIT (just some of the opinions I've heard), then their opinions are just as valid. And if they like it more than I&W, that's just as valid. It's all the same music, but different people feel differently about it. So what I'm saying is that our passion and enthusiasm (or lack of if that's the case) for this band comes not from the band or the music they write. That passion, that magic (or lack there of) comes from within the fan.
At least, that's what I believe. If you don't feel the same way, if you don't share that philosophy, well, I'm not expecting to change your opinion. I'm merely sharing mine.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 08:26:44 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 07:41:05 PM
Honestly, I don't think The Glass Prison actually sounds quite strange on SDOIT. To me, it really stands out like a sore thumb and does not indicate the album's overal sound at all. It would sound a lot more natural on 8VM or especially TOT, if you ask me. Unless you're counting the whole Octave theme, then yeah, maybe it starts on a different root note that doesn't fit into the album, etc. But nuggets aside, I think it's stylistically fairly consistent with TROAE or Panic Attack.

And the thing about song structure and melodies, again, DT being as diverse as they are, even within SDOIT and 8VM, the song structure and melodies are so diverse just within those albums, that I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you which song belongs where, if I had heard them for the first time.

When I first bought Octavarium and listened to These Walls and Never Enough (the only two songs I haven't heard from it at that point) I was VERY surprised. They sounded nothing like what I expected, based on what I've heard of Octavarium at that point.

So yeah, it's not that SDOIT TOT and 8VM sound the same, overall (although I do think that the heavy songs on SDOIT and 8VM sound stylistically consistent with TOT), it's that SDOIT and 8VM are both so diverse that personally, I would not be able to guess which song belonged on which album. I might make a couple right guesses, but I'd also mix up a LOT of them.

Well, I guess in the end we just have very different opinions on those albums  :D
But now I do see where you're coming from; they are both very diverse albums and I could see them being intertwined in one another. Perhaps it's the songwriting that makes the difference for me, 8VM's songwriting seems very mainstream (or "accessible," for lack of better words), compared to SDOIT. That's just what I think though.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 08:16:49 PM
What would it be like if you never heard I&W (or whatever album made you fall in love with DT)? Like, for me, I love Systematic Chaos. It was the second DT album I ever heard and it played a large role in why I fell in love with the band.
But what if I haven't heard it at the time? I actually bought it on a whim, so what if I happened to pick a different DT album, and haven't had a chance to listen to SC until now? Would I like it nearly as much? I want to say yes, but the truth is, maybe I would, but maybe I wouldn't...

...So for someone who's been a fan of I&W for decades, what if they ended up missing out on it somehow, and only heard it for the first time today? Would they still love it as much? I'm sorry, but if anyone tried to give me a 100% definitive answer, it would be baseless, because they hadn't lived out that particular hypothetical situation. Especially if it's their favorite album, because if that's the case, then it's safe to say that it had a big impact on the evolution of their musical tastes. So what would their musical tastes evolve like had they not grown up with the album?
There really is no way of knowing for sure.


Also, forgive me if I misinterpret what you are saying here, but for the sake of argument, are you saying that if someone who was a DT fan for years just listened to I&W today, they wouldn't rank it very high? Or are you simply comparing this to someone who had listened to I&W from the very beginning, and had that nostalgic connection ? I&W was one of the last DT albums I got into, and I think it's in their top 3 albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 08:39:17 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 08:26:44 PM
Well, I guess in the end we just have very different opinions on those albums  :D
But now I do see where you're coming from; they are both very diverse albums and I could see them being intertwined in one another. Perhaps it's the songwriting that makes the difference for me, 8VM's songwriting seems very mainstream (or "accessible," for lack of better words), compared to SDOIT. That's just what I think though.

Ultimately, I think what unifies the three albums for me is partially the production and partially the musicianship. The heavy songs might be heavy and angry, but unlike most Metal bands out there, DT's heavy stuff still retained a sense of warmth, I think thanks to JP's guitar tone. A lot of Metal in the 2000s had a very cold and electric (for the lack of a better term) sound, but JP's guitar tone, the softness of his picking, kept the overall feeling very warm.
The other part is just how they played. The types of riffs, the types of unison sections, the style of keyboard solos. Of course, it doesn't apply to every song on all three albums, there are certain songs that have their intricacies. But I guess another way to say it is that I think those three albums have a lot more in common with one another, than they do with the rest of the band's discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 24, 2013, 03:54:55 PM
I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.

I think this is a good way to put it.  For example, if you look at DT12, songs like Surrender to Reason and The Bigger Picture sound fairly unique for them (find me other DT songs that sound a lot like either), but they still sound very much like Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:07:50 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 10:39:51 PM
I think this is a good way to put it.  For example, if you look at DT12, songs like Surrender to Reason and The Bigger Picture sound fairly unique for them (find me other DT songs that sound a lot like either), but they still sound very much like Dream Theater.

DT definitely has a unique style that's not extremely difficult to recognize. I mean, the way JP plays his solos, the way JR plays his fast solos, or even his fast paced style of melodic piano solos. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. In fact, I can't think of very many musicians that don't have a signature sound. Even a diverse band like Queen, even though they did change their sound quite a bit and tried several different styles, when you hear a Brian May guitar solo, you damn well know it's a Brian May guitar solo, and it's usually absolutely rockin'!

Not sure if when you said, "they still sound very much like Dream Theater" you meant that in a good way or a bad way, but I definitely don't think it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:13:01 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.
Have you listened to Levin, Minneman, Rudess Kev? I love it, and I'm kinda surprised to see how little buzz it's generating, though not really surprised given the very stubborn way it was released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 11:17:25 PM
Not yet.  It is on my list, though. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:17:53 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.

Yeah, it would be nice if they did something really different a la Lines In The Sand, but if "different" meant something simple with little of their well known intricate musicianship, I'd probably be disappointed. I mean, the occasional Solitary Shell is okay, but a whole album like that... No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 25, 2013, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 08:16:49 PM
It's not about overanalyzing the songwriting, it's about simplifying it to "How does this music make me feel?" and the answer to that can't be quantified.

This is going nowhere then  :mehlin

I can agree a bit with what you said but not 100% because the two things already happened with me anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 25, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on December 25, 2013, 12:40:29 AM
This is going nowhere then  :mehlin

Yeah, that's essentially it. I mean, you can tell me about how the songwriting style has changed, and I would certainly be interested in reading all about it (assuming it's something I don't already know). It would open my mind a little, and I'd understand it a little better in terms of composition. But it's really not going to make me like I&W any more than I already do, nor will it make me appreciate DT12 any less.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 25, 2013, 06:09:02 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 25, 2013, 11:05:06 AM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 25, 2013, 06:09:02 AM
That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.

Well, maybe they'll explore those kinds of things through side projects. Where's that new JP solo album we were promised?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 25, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 25, 2013, 06:09:02 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on December 24, 2013, 10:39:51 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on December 24, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.

You're wanting too much then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 25, 2013, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 11:10:38 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on December 24, 2013, 11:00:40 AM
I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.

I do wonder just how meticulously they plan out their songs. I mean, to they actually go, "Well, what we have now ends up to 72 minutes, our final song should be one of our simple 6 - 7 minute songs."

In a recent interview, I think it was either JP or JR who alluded to exactly that practice. So, while DT might reject certain riffs, they however also write to the clock.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on December 28, 2013, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 24, 2013, 03:10:58 PM
I'm kind of in the middle. I'd like them to branch out from "typical" DT, but at the same time I still enjoy pretty much all of their music.

+1

And I'd like to express my appreciation for TheGreatPretender's theory about nostalgia, there's truth in it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 29, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2013, 08:16:49 PM
How we experience something comes from within us, not from the absolute existence of the given music. That's why there are polarizing opinions about it. Unless there's a 100% unanimous opinion about something, then it's not absolute.

So what I'm saying is that our passion and enthusiasm (or lack of if that's the case) for this band comes not from the band or the music they write. That passion, that magic (or lack there of) comes from within the fan.
At least, that's what I believe. If you don't feel the same way, if you don't share that philosophy, well, I'm not expecting to change your opinion. I'm merely sharing mine.  :tup

I think you just established a fairly solid foundation for not only giving validity to any opinion, but also a very fair perspective on the externalisation of our emotions (excitement/fear/love/hate) in that we create how we feel about it personally by how we choose to respond to a neutral circumstance. In that respect, Dream Theaters music can have as much built in meaning as they can possibly fit, but really for us, it's just a clean slate of neutrally meaningless sounds until we connect with it in our own unique experience, and give it our own meaning.

Also, I think with in the framework of music that is considered to be "Dream Theater" sounding, you could never expect to find something 'completely new' sounding. Because anything 'new' is still going to be an extension of that musicians expression. They won't change for you, but you can change how you respond to it and it might appear new to your tastes. Also, because Dream Theater has this framework, that's why the artists have solo projects to expand beyond the familiar boundaries they are expected to maintain. And if you still can't find something 'different' or considerably 'new', that's why there are thousands more composers and musicians for you to resonate with. You can't impose your taste on on an artist, you can only flow with their taste if it's something you feel interested in.  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 29, 2013, 06:08:59 PM
brain asplode
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on December 29, 2013, 06:24:12 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on December 29, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
stuff

Post of the year. :clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 29, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
It wasn't that hard to understand. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on December 29, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
I don't really buy the solo project excuse. If you've got something new to share, why not flesh it out with some of the most talented musicians in the world?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on December 29, 2013, 10:10:07 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 29, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
It wasn't that hard to understand. :dunno:

Just to clarify, I understood it. I just replaced his post in the quote to try to be funny. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on December 31, 2013, 07:26:37 AM
Here's my (not sure if) controversial opinion: the sound of the LALP CDs is utter garbage. It sounds extremely muddy and the guitar mostly just drowns out everything. JMX is inaudible, JR is too sometimes and the drums sound OK only when there's (almost) nothing else playing. The cymbals sound extremely thin and short and the snare drum hits lack punch. Really, the only thing about it that actually sounds good is JLB.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 07:45:39 AM
I like the LALP mix much better than the Merry Christmas release. Except for the keyboards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 31, 2013, 07:45:52 AM
Quote from: Onno on December 31, 2013, 07:26:37 AM
Here's my (not sure if) controversial opinion: the sound of the LALP CDs is utter garbage. It sounds extremely muddy and the guitar mostly just drowns out everything. JMX is inaudible, JR is too sometimes and the drums sound OK only when there's (almost) nothing else playing. The cymbals sound extremely thin and short and the snare drum hits lack punch. Really, the only thing about it that actually sounds good is JLB.
Agreed on all counts, plus I hate the backing tracks and the click. I was kind of OK with it when it first came out, but now that the novelty has faded away, I simply can't stand listening to it. The holiday release was a breath of fresh air in the mixing department.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2013, 07:47:51 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 07:45:39 AM
I like the LALP mix much better than the Merry Christmas release. Except for the keyboards.

LALP was a bit more polished overall, although I prefer the balance of instruments overall on the Christmas release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on December 31, 2013, 08:19:16 AM
Overall, the quality of the sounds on LaLP are much better, but the balance of instruments is better on the Holiday Album. I was actually surprised at the volume of the keys throughout the songs on the Holiday Album.  Has DT ever released live songs that were professionally mixed with the keys consistently that high in the mix?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 31, 2013, 08:34:33 AM
Live Scenes has pretty loud keys, in some instances (BTL, FT, STV, Home...) a lot louder and more prominent than on SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on December 31, 2013, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I feel the same way about Myung. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 31, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: MonagFam on December 31, 2013, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I feel the same way about Myung. 

They should just turn everyone up equally, to make sure everyone gets heard. Problem solved! :neverusethis:

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 31, 2013, 11:16:00 AM
JP should let JM be the producer
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on December 31, 2013, 01:25:19 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on December 24, 2013, 08:26:44 PM
Also, forgive me if I misinterpret what you are saying here, but for the sake of argument, are you saying that if someone who was a DT fan for years just listened to I&W today, they wouldn't rank it very high? Or are you simply comparing this to someone who had listened to I&W from the very beginning, and had that nostalgic connection ? I&W was one of the last DT albums I got into, and I think it's in their top 3 albums.

It can happen or no, you can genuinely think an album is or isn't good as the other, having nothing to do with the one you listened first. Like i already said, the two things already happened to me so...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I felt like the keys on I&W were a tad too loud. It really does make a dramatic difference between making a band sound like a Prog Rock and Prog Metal. I feel like if they focused on making the keyboards really loud, DT would lose some of their Metal edge, because then JP's badass guitar riffs would be smothered by the keyboard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I felt like the keys on I&W were a tad too loud. It really does make a dramatic difference between making a band sound like a Prog Rock and Prog Metal. I feel like if they focused on making the keyboards really loud, DT would lose some of their Metal edge, because then JP's badass guitar riffs would be smothered by the keyboard.

I feel like that's more a problem of the guitar mastering and tone that made the metal riffs sound way less metal.

For example the louder keyboards on TCOT in the holiday release make the chorus much better when you can actually hear the epic Rudess part. Louder keyboard in ITNOG on Budokan also make the song better for me.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 31, 2013, 03:24:42 PM
I really don't like JP's new guitar sound I have to say. On the holiday fan release, when he goes into UAGM "chugga chugga" mode, you can't even hear the low E string. All you hear is the weird overtones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on December 31, 2013, 04:01:53 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 31, 2013, 11:16:00 AM
JP should let JM be the producer
We have to be able to hear the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: a51502112 on December 31, 2013, 04:21:00 PM
Frankly, JPs lipsyncing is embarrassing. It makes me Lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on December 31, 2013, 09:07:44 PM
Quote from: Grizz on December 31, 2013, 04:01:53 PM
Quote from: Lucien on December 31, 2013, 11:16:00 AM
JP should let JM be the producer
We have to be able to hear the album.

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on January 01, 2014, 06:21:47 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I felt like the keys on I&W were a tad too loud. It really does make a dramatic difference between making a band sound like a Prog Rock and Prog Metal. I feel like if they focused on making the keyboards really loud, DT would lose some of their Metal edge, because then JP's badass guitar riffs would be smothered by the keyboard.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 01, 2014, 10:04:41 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 01, 2014, 06:21:47 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.

I felt like the keys on I&W were a tad too loud. It really does make a dramatic difference between making a band sound like a Prog Rock and Prog Metal. I feel like if they focused on making the keyboards really loud, DT would lose some of their Metal edge, because then JP's badass guitar riffs would be smothered by the keyboard.

Totally agree.

Except that DT is all of this.  That's why I love them.  Sometimes more prog and sometimes more metal.  There is no need for them to pigeonhole themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:07:19 AM
Isn't it weird how PMU ends so abruptly
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 01, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:07:19 AM
Isn't it weird how PMU ends so abruptly

Just like sex.  PMO though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:22:29 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 01, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:07:19 AM
Isn't it weird how PMU ends so abruptly

Just like sex.  PMO though.

Pull My Ovaries?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 01, 2014, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:22:29 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 01, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 10:07:19 AM
Isn't it weird how PMU ends so abruptly

Just like sex.  PMO though.

Pull My Ovaries?

Out. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 01, 2014, 10:04:41 AM
Except that DT is all of this.  That's why I love them.  Sometimes more prog and sometimes more metal.  There is no need for them to pigeonhole themselves.
I agree. I just think that certain songs on I&W needed a little more attitude. I love it for what it is, and I think it's one of the greatest albums ever, but if I were to introduce Dream Theater to someone, I would stay away from I&W because I feel like on the whole, it doesn't accurately represent Dream Theater's overall sound. It reaches perfection in the Prog category, but aside from Pull Me Under, there's very little about it that I'd consider Metal. So in that respect, it's not a very balanced album.

Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 02:58:37 PM
I feel like that's more a problem of the guitar mastering and tone that made the metal riffs sound way less metal.

For example the louder keyboards on TCOT in the holiday release make the chorus much better when you can actually hear the epic Rudess part. Louder keyboard in ITNOG on Budokan also make the song better for me.  :metal

You may be right. But I still don't think JR's keyboards need to be any louder than they are on the albums. Yes, sometimes there are some truly great moments that get a little lost, but that's one of the best parts of DT's music, is that those moments are still there. And with enough listens, you'll notice them, and you'll think, "Oh man, I never really noticed that little keyboard passage that JR is playing! That's so cool!" And you end up discovering something new about the song. And from then on, you'll hear it every time. That's one of the many things I love about DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
I wish DT would write more songs like I Walk Beside You.










So they should do more collaborations with U2 :neverusethis:


But IWBY is awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
I wish DT would write more songs like I Walk Beside You.










So they should do more collaborations with U2 :neverusethis:


But IWBY is awesome.


I'm not a fan of U2 at all. But the thing about DT is that no matter how many influences they borrow from, whether it be U2, Coldplay, Muse, Evanescence, or whatever other band, at the end of the day, the songs they come out with may have certain elements of those bands, but they're still Dream Theater songs. So even if you think it sounds like U2, or Muse, or whatever, it's more like, you can always look at it this way, what if those other bands started to sound more like Dream Theater? I think their music would be so much better. So just the same, it's still DT, just with a different flavor, and so it's still awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 01, 2014, 07:00:32 PM
That argument has its limit though. It's obviously down to personal perception of where that limit is, but I think there's a decent percentage of fans for whom that line was crossed an uncomfortably amount of times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 07:04:56 PM
Sounding like U2 is so much better than sounding like Muse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 07:09:55 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 01, 2014, 07:00:32 PM
That argument has its limit though. It's obviously down to personal perception of where that limit is, but I think there's a decent percentage of fans for whom that line was crossed an uncomfortably amount of times.

Sure. But still, you can't say that I Walk Beside You sounds 100% like a U2 song. Or that Forsaken sounds 100% like an Evanescence song, etc.

I also feel like a lot of those fans that you speak of are the same ones that someone mentioned earlier, how a lot of people mainly appreciate DT for their prog side, or for their metal side, and they don't enjoy the bigger picture.
I could be wrong, but I find it difficult to understand how someone who, let's say, likes every DT album from 1989 to 2003, but then suddenly dislikes Octavarium because it has Muse, U2 and Coldplay influences. Because everything they'd done up until that point varied greatly, and I think it takes an eclectic taste in music to appreciate all of Dream Theater as it is. So I find it hard to believe that people who do have that kind of an eclectic taste would suddenly be put off by a few influences of some mainstream rock bands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 01, 2014, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 07:04:56 PM
Sounding like U2 is so much better than sounding like Muse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on January 01, 2014, 07:31:29 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 07:09:55 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 01, 2014, 07:00:32 PM
That argument has its limit though. It's obviously down to personal perception of where that limit is, but I think there's a decent percentage of fans for whom that line was crossed an uncomfortably amount of times.

Sure. But still, you can't say that I Walk Beside You sounds 100% like a U2 song. Or that Forsaken sounds 100% like an Evanescence song, etc.

I also feel like a lot of those fans that you speak of are the same ones that someone mentioned earlier, how a lot of people mainly appreciate DT for their prog side, or for their metal side, and they don't enjoy the bigger picture.
I could be wrong, but I find it difficult to understand how someone who, let's say, likes every DT album from 1989 to 2003, but then suddenly dislikes Octavarium because it has Muse, U2 and Coldplay influences. Because everything they'd done up until that point varied greatly, and I think it takes an eclectic taste in music to appreciate all of Dream Theater as it is. So I find it hard to believe that people who do have that kind of an eclectic taste would suddenly be put off by a few influences of some mainstream rock bands.

There's having influences and then there's actually writing a riff/chorus/song that actually tries to emulate a particular band's style/tone/musical vocabulary/phrasing/etc. With the latter, it's no longer "oh I can kind of hear the influence" but more "holy crap, he's actually trying to sound exactly like Matt Bellamy" (using Never Enough as the example).

The only time DT ever really pulled off a clone well, IMO, is The Way It Used To Be. Very clearly U2 style but still retains that DT sound from the FII era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 07:50:59 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on January 01, 2014, 07:31:29 PM
There's having influences and then there's actually writing a riff/chorus/song that actually tries to emulate a particular band's style/tone/musical vocabulary/phrasing/etc. With the latter, it's no longer "oh I can kind of hear the influence" but more "holy crap, he's actually trying to sound exactly like Matt Bellamy" (using Never Enough as the example).

The only time DT ever really pulled off a clone well, IMO, is The Way It Used To Be. Very clearly U2 style but still retains that DT sound from the FII era.

Are you talking about JP or JLB?

Honestly, if I didn't know, I would have guessed that they were just trying something a little different. The solo section of Never Enough still very much has a DT vibe to it. I guess if you're really familiar with those other bands and you really don't like them, then I can see how you'd be put off by those songs.
But then, if you really don't like those bands, I don't see why you'd familiarize yourself with their music enough to notice something like that anyway. I've heard some U2 songs in the past, and it didn't garner my interest one bit. If you ask me, U2 sounds like a bland, wishy washy soft rock band. (If you disagree, I apologize, that's just my opinion.) But any DT song that's ever displayed influences of U2, whether it's The Way It Used To Be, IWBY or To Live Forever, still sounded much better.

If nothing else, JLB's vocals still make it sound like DT. His voice is one of a kind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on January 01, 2014, 07:56:40 PM
I was referring to JLB's vocals on that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:03:26 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on January 01, 2014, 07:56:40 PM
I was referring to JLB's vocals on that song.

See, that's the thing. Even though JLB was trying out a certain different style in that song, his voice is one of a kind. It still sounds like JLB, and he'd already played with different styles throughout DT's career. At the end of the day, I think it still sounds like JLB, and only added more colors and versatility to his portfolio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
Taking deep heavy breaths for no reason does not add color or versatility.

Notice how he hasn't done that since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
Taking deep heavy breaths for no reason does not add color or versatility.

Notice how he hasn't done that since.

I was talking about that particular way of falsetto singing. The verses in Never Enough, as well as the "Run, try to hide" portion of Panic Attack.

I don't know what breathing you're talking about. I never noticed it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:17:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
Taking deep heavy breaths for no reason does not add color or versatility.

Notice how he hasn't done that since.

I was talking about that particular way of falsetto singing. The verses in Never Enough, as well as the "Run, try to hide" portion of Panic Attack.

I don't know what breathing you're talking about. I never noticed it.

Cut myself open wide GASP
Reach inside GASP
Help yourself gasp

etc
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Yeah, I never really noticed the gasps. The parts with the words, I thought, were quite enjoyable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Yeah, I never really noticed the gasps. The parts with the words, I thought, were quite enjoyable.

I've taken a liking to the song, so it's not too big of a deal for me anymore, but those are still so unnecessary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Yeah, I never really noticed the gasps. The parts with the words, I thought, were quite enjoyable.

I've taken a liking to the song, so it's not too big of a deal for me anymore, but those are still so unnecessary.
Honestly, though, I wonder if JLB was even aware of it. There was a certain kind of compressed distortion on his voice, and you'd be surprised how loud breaths can sound in a recording studio. I have to take long, slow breaths well ahead of time just to make sure they're not audible right before the take.

Either way, necessary or not, I didn't even notice them, so at the very least, I wouldn't say they totally ruin the song.

Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:37:04 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 01, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Yeah, I never really noticed the gasps. The parts with the words, I thought, were quite enjoyable.

I've taken a liking to the song, so it's not too big of a deal for me anymore, but those are still so unnecessary.
Honestly, though, I wonder if JLB was even aware of it. There was a certain kind of compressed distortion on his voice, and you'd be surprised how loud breaths can sound in a recording studio. I have to take long, slow breaths well ahead of time just to make sure they're not audible right before the take.

Either way, necessary or not, I didn't even notice them, so at the very least, I wouldn't say they totally ruin the song.

He takes some loud breaths in Fatal Tragedy, but they sound normal. In Never Enough it sounds like he's dying. Definitely intentional and I'm sure instructed by MP. Which I'm sure was strange in the studio.

"Ok, can you after each line take a huge breath?"

"um what"

Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 01, 2014, 10:02:41 PM
Of course they're intentional, he metaphorically stabbed himself in the gut!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 01, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
I like Raw Dog.  :sad:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on January 01, 2014, 10:50:56 PM
I think Raw Dog has glimmers of a good song here and there, but overall I find it feels bloated and that it goes on for too long. I like the first half of it way better than the second half.

Since we're in the Controversial Opinions thread...I like Raw Dog more than Enigma Machine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 01, 2014, 11:32:55 PM
I like the Raw Dog riff (the one after the intro).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 12:55:03 AM
I just realized what I don't like about Raw Dog. It's a very long instrumental, even by DT's standards, yet it's majorly lacking melody. It's all riffs and grooves, but without melody it feels like pure balls and chunk, and it just gets tiresome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 02, 2014, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Bolsters on January 01, 2014, 10:50:56 PM
I think Raw Dog has glimmers of a good song here and there, but overall I find it feels bloated and that it goes on for too long. I like the first half of it way better than the second half.

Since we're in the Controversial Opinions thread...I like Raw Dog more than Enigma Machine.

Me too. Enigma Machine still feels like going nowhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 02, 2014, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 12:55:03 AM
I just realized what I don't like about Raw Dog. It's a very long instrumental, even by DT's standards, yet it's majorly lacking melody. It's all riffs and grooves, but without melody it feels like pure balls and chunk, and it just gets tiresome.

This might just be it. But then again, there's nothing wrong with riffing it up (The Sword does this all the time and I love them). I think another problem with Raw Dog is that is just feels disjointed and doesn't ever seem to be going anywhere. It's not a terrible song. It surely has its moment (mainly in the first half of it), but even some of the better riffs feel lacking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 02, 2014, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 02, 2014, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 12:55:03 AM
I just realized what I don't like about Raw Dog. It's a very long instrumental, even by DT's standards, yet it's majorly lacking melody. It's all riffs and grooves, but without melody it feels like pure balls and chunk, and it just gets tiresome.

This might just be it. But then again, there's nothing wrong with riffing it up (The Sword does this all the time and I love them). I think another problem with Raw Dog is that is just feels disjointed and doesn't ever seem to be going anywhere. It's not a terrible song. It surely has its moment (mainly in the first half of it), but even some of the better riffs feel lacking.

Raw Dog isn't a 'true' DT song to me. JMX wasn't even present when writing it. It was a quickly written song for a video game. Just speculating here....but I'd be willing to bet it took them a day, maybe two to write that thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 02, 2014, 12:36:13 PM
IIRC MP said 3 days at some point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 02, 2014, 12:36:45 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on January 02, 2014, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 02, 2014, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 12:55:03 AM
I just realized what I don't like about Raw Dog. It's a very long instrumental, even by DT's standards, yet it's majorly lacking melody. It's all riffs and grooves, but without melody it feels like pure balls and chunk, and it just gets tiresome.

This might just be it. But then again, there's nothing wrong with riffing it up (The Sword does this all the time and I love them). I think another problem with Raw Dog is that is just feels disjointed and doesn't ever seem to be going anywhere. It's not a terrible song. It surely has its moment (mainly in the first half of it), but even some of the better riffs feel lacking.

Raw Dog isn't a 'true' DT song to me. JMX wasn't even present when writing it. It was a quickly written song for a video game. Just speculating here....but I'd be willing to bet it took them a day, maybe two to write that thing.

Made for a video game where, iirc, wasn't actually even in the video game.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 02, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
Yeah, I don't think they were really told anything about the video game, or what the song ought to sound like. I remember Mikael from Opeth saying something like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 02, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Raw Dog's supposed to be pure balls and chunk. It's a freaking "ride my fire horse into battle and castrate that Zeus motherfucker" type of track. It's "DBZ villain going all out" music.  :lol  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on January 02, 2014, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 02, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Raw Dog's supposed to be pure balls and chunk. It's a freaking "ride my fire horse into battle and castrate that Zeus motherfucker" type of track. It's "DBZ villain going all out" music.  :lol  :metal

This. Raw Dog is an awesome track, imo. Its probably the heaviest thing the band has ever written, yet it has really catchy groove (that bass wah is killer). I like JR's choice of patches, and the solos are awesome. The whole song is dark, violent, brooding, and angry as fuck.

So, in other words, it perfectly captures the essence of the God of War video game franchise. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 02, 2014, 03:07:28 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on January 02, 2014, 01:21:17 PM
This. Raw Dog is an awesome track, imo. Its probably the heaviest thing the band has ever written, yet it has really catchy groove (that bass wah is killer). I like JR's choice of patches, and the solos are awesome. The whole song is dark, violent, brooding, and angry as fuck.

So, in other words, it perfectly captures the essence of the God of War video game franchise. :lol
Quote from: nikatapi on January 02, 2014, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Bolsters on January 01, 2014, 10:50:56 PM
I think Raw Dog has glimmers of a good song here and there, but overall I find it feels bloated and that it goes on for too long. I like the first half of it way better than the second half.

Since we're in the Controversial Opinions thread...I like Raw Dog more than Enigma Machine.

Me too. Enigma Machine still feels like going nowhere.

Agreed with all of this. Raw Dog is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 02, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Raw Dog's supposed to be pure balls and chunk. It's a freaking "ride my fire horse into battle and castrate that Zeus motherfucker" type of track. It's "DBZ villain going all out" music.  :lol  :metal

The Dance of Eternity is DBZ villain going all out music.

There's nothing with balls and chunk as long as it gets some soloing every once in a while. Besides, if they had any intention to keeping God of War in mind when writing it, they would've written something that felt more grand and epic, with sections that closer resembled the ending of OTBOA.

Even when I'm in the mood for crazy, heavy, riff-based music, I'd sooner listen to Psychosane than Raw Dog. And that's unfortunate, because Raw Dog has some cool riffs and some really awesome moments, it's just that it starts out by smacking you in the face and keeps hammering you on the head for the next 7 minutes. And even though some of its riffs are nice, and some of its parts are pretty cool, none of it is DT's best or most creative material. It really sounds to me like they were asked to do this, they didn't care one bit about it, just rolled into the studio, banged it out in one session, and sent it out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on January 02, 2014, 03:11:02 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 02, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Raw Dog's supposed to be pure balls and chunk. It's a freaking "ride my fire horse into battle and castrate that Zeus motherfucker" type of track. It's "DBZ villain going all out" music.  :lol  :metal

I think the DT's songs that were actually used in DBZ are better choices for DBZ music. Hahaha

Ninyad
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:13:52 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 02, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Raw Dog's supposed to be pure balls and chunk. It's a freaking "ride my fire horse into battle and castrate that Zeus motherfucker" type of track. It's "DBZ villain going all out" music.  :lol  :metal

The Dance of Eternity is DBZ villain going all out music.

Well they did use it for The History of Trunks.

Along with pretty much the rest of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:13:52 PM
Well they did use it for The History of Trunks.

Along with pretty much the rest of the album.

Exactly!  :tup


EDIT: On that note, that's how I found out about DT actually. I heard the songs on History of Trunks and I liked it, it intrigued me, so I researched what band it was and that's how I became a fan of DT.

If Raw Dog was on a DBZ (or any other) soundtrack, I wouldn't be intrigued by it at all. It would not make me want to search out for more DT music. So personally, I think they should've put more effort into it, because there are plenty of God of War fans out there who probably got the EP and DT had the potential of attracting a bunch of new fans, which I highly doubt they did with Raw Dog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:27:19 PM
My memory is clouded, but I believe I watched HoT a few years before I knew who DT were and thought nothing of the music, but I remember watching Kooler's Revenge and thought it was cool cause I was a huge Disturbed fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:27:19 PM
My memory is clouded, but I believe I watched HoT a few years before I knew who DT were and thought nothing of the music, but I remember watching Kooler's Revenge and thought it was cool cause I was a huge Disturbed fan.

Well, to be honest, when I watched History of Trunks, aside from Through Her Eyes which has vocals on it, I didn't realize that any of the other stuff WAS a band, I thought it was a part of the score. And funny enough, Bruce Faulconer did write a few pieces for it that sounded like they were trying to imitate TDOE's chaotic style. But when my friend mentioned to me that a lot of it was a band called Dream Theater, and told me about TDOE, when I found it and listened to it, I was absolutely blown away by it, and right away I knew that DT was something special.

And I guarantee that that would not have happened with Raw Dog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:41:16 PM
I'm listening to Raw Dog right now, and there's really nothing wrong with it. It's not something I listen to often (very rarely) but it is what it is. The first half is a bit slow to get going, but the second half with the soloing is really cool.

OH SHI 9999!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 02, 2014, 03:41:40 PM
If the first thing I heard by DT was The Dance of Eternity I probably would have stayed away from the band.  :lol

My Metallica/Iron Maiden brain wouldn't have endured that song back then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 03:48:43 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 02, 2014, 03:41:16 PM
I'm listening to Raw Dog right now, and there's really nothing wrong with it. It's not something I listen to often (very rarely) but it is what it is. The first half is a bit slow to get going, but the second half with the soloing is really cool.

OH SHI 9999!

Personally, I'd say the song is not as good as the sum of its parts. Maybe if it had a "Beautiful Agony" type section in the middle of it, I'd like it a lot better.

Quote from: jakepriest on January 02, 2014, 03:41:40 PM
If the first thing I heard by DT was The Dance of Eternity I probably would have stayed away from the band.  :lol

My Metallica/Iron Maiden brain wouldn't have endured that song back then.

I didn't even listen to Metal back then, and I've never even heard of Progressive music as a genre. But I was still blown away by it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 02, 2014, 04:22:12 PM
It would be perfect in a battle anime like DBZ.  Baddie reveals he's not using his full power, music cues up as he's powering up. Unholy background choir noise as chunks of the ground start lifting into the air, and each different part in the song represents the battle escalating more and more.

...I could write this shit!  :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on January 02, 2014, 07:08:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.
This needs to be said again. Yes. Oh how I love dominant keys on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: jsem on January 02, 2014, 07:08:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.
This needs to be said again. Yes. Oh how I love dominant keys on I&W.

You're misquoting something. I never said that.  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 02, 2014, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 02, 2014, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: jsem on January 02, 2014, 07:08:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 31, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.
This needs to be said again. Yes. Oh how I love dominant keys on I&W.

You're misquoting something. I never said that.  :-\

Correct quote:
Quote from: jakepriest on December 31, 2013, 09:28:48 AM
I wish every DT album and live release had loud and prominent keys. Jordan plays some amazing stuff that never gets to be heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 12:17:20 PM
I swear Raw Dog would be perfect after These Walls if played live and would slay the audience.  I wish they wouldve done that for the maiden set.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on January 03, 2014, 01:59:46 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 12:17:20 PM
I swear Raw Dog would be perfect after These Walls if played live and would slay the audience.  I wish they wouldve done that for the maiden set.

Imagine The Dance of Eternity segueing into directly Raw Dog, the pounding ending going right into the pounding intro of another ridiculous instrumental. That would give James extra rest time to sing Voices or Take The Time or another vocally demanding song next
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Vipmetal on January 03, 2014, 04:55:40 PM
Now that I've been playing it for few days on a guitar, I really do feel that You not me is very underrated song. The chorus is perfect! 😎
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: Vipmetal on January 03, 2014, 04:55:40 PM
Now that I've been playing it for few days on a guitar, I really do feel that You not me is very underrated song. The chorus is perfect! 😎

What does 😎 mean?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 03, 2014, 05:07:07 PM
Ceiling Cat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 05:07:43 PM
I don't get it. ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 03, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
Cat's really can fit into anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man

Portnoy's drum work in the bridge/solo section is killer, as is JP's solo. I actually love JR's solo there too, and it really reminds me of AJFA era Hammett.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man

Portnoy's drum work in the bridge/solo section is killer, as is JP's solo. I actually love JR's solo there too, and it really reminds me of AJFA era Hammett.

I enjoy the energy constant motion has. JP's guitar solo and dimebag style squeal make it really great, but that squeal live is weak and sad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man

Portnoy's drum work in the bridge/solo section is killer, as is JP's solo. I actually love JR's solo there too, and it really reminds me of AJFA era Hammett.

I enjoy the energy constant motion has. JP's guitar solo and dimebag style squeal make it really great, but that squeal live is weak and sad.

The JP & JR solos are the only parts of the song I like.  The rest is too Metallica sounding and not the good Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 07:54:04 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules!
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man

Portnoy's drum work in the bridge/solo section is killer, as is JP's solo. I actually love JR's solo there too, and it really reminds me of AJFA era Hammett.

I enjoy the energy constant motion has. JP's guitar solo and dimebag style squeal make it really great, but that squeal live is weak and sad.

The JP & JR solos are the only parts of the song I like.  The rest is too Metallica sounding and not the good Metallica.

It's straight up Master of Puppets style Metallica (and the intro riff and chorus sound nothing like Metallica). If that's not the good Metallica, then I don't know what is. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 07:54:04 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on January 03, 2014, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 01, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on January 01, 2014, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: PROGdrummer on December 17, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
Constant Motion and Raw Dog are fucking awesome songs.

bring it

Nice one to stir up trouble, you must be fucking with us.

Constant Motion rules
I don't disagree with this part at the very least. Underrated song. Have you even listened to Petrucci's solo section and what Portnoy is doing there it's like mindblowing man

Portnoy's drum work in the bridge/solo section is killer, as is JP's solo. I actually love JR's solo there too, and it really reminds me of AJFA era Hammett.

I enjoy the energy constant motion has. JP's guitar solo and dimebag style squeal make it really great, but that squeal live is weak and sad.

The JP & JR solos are the only parts of the song I like.  The rest is too Metallica sounding and not the good Metallica.

It's straight up Master of Puppets style Metallica (and the intro riff and chorus sound nothing like Metallica). If that's not the good Metallica, then I don't know what is. :lol

The intro riff doesn't sound like Metallica?  When the last time you cleaned out your ears?  ;) 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 08:04:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:59:03 PM
The intro riff doesn't sound like Metallica?  When the last time you cleaned out your ears?  ;) 

Metallica couldn't have ever played a riff like that if their lives depended on it, buddy. :lol That main riff is something like 5/8, 6/8, 5/8, 15/16, whereas Metallica were lucky to use the odd time sig lop-off here and there, and the wide spanning single note riff and some of those note choices were not something I'd associate with Metallica's very limited musical playbook at all.
The verse riff just after that has Metallica written all over it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 08:11:58 PM
Even among you guys praising Constant Motion, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is a controversial opinion:

I really like the second verse where LaBrie and Portnoy rap back and forth.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:14:59 PM
That's actually one of those sections where I really like Portnoy's vocals. Love that back and forth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 08:04:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 07:59:03 PM
The intro riff doesn't sound like Metallica?  When the last time you cleaned out your ears?  ;) 

Metallica couldn't have ever played a riff like that if their lives depended on it, buddy. :lol That main riff is something like 5/8, 6/8, 5/8, 15/16, whereas Metallica were lucky to use the odd time sig lop-off here and there, and the wide spanning single note riff and some of those note choices were not something I'd associate with Metallica's very limited musical playbook at all.
The verse riff just after that has Metallica written all over it though.

You're overanalyzing this.  The sound is Metallica whether they are playing in 10/8 or 4/4.  I won't disagree with you that the verse riff is MORE Metallica sounding though. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 08:29:38 PM
I think "how much a riff sounds like Metallica" mostly falls into the realm of personal opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on January 03, 2014, 08:30:28 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 08:29:38 PM
I think "how much a riff sounds like Metallica" mostly falls into the realm of who gives a fuck.
FTFM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 08:30:52 PM
After a song like As I Am, I'm finding it a little silly that people are complaining that Constant Motion is ripping off Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 08:32:09 PM
I'm not the biggest Metallica fan, but Constant Motion sounds more like Metallica to me than As I Am does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on January 03, 2014, 08:36:01 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 03, 2014, 08:32:09 PM
I'm not the biggest Metallica fan, but Constant Motion sounds more like Metallica to me than As I Am does.
I agree. As I Am sounds more like Corrosion of Conformity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYae25hnKI) to me. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 08:37:56 PM
I think As I Am sounds very Metallica-ish. At least Black Album influenced. And heck, James even does a "Yeeeah!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 08:38:58 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 08:30:52 PM
After a song like As I Am, I'm finding it a little silly that people are complaining that Constant Motion is ripping off Metallica.

I don't think anyone said "ripping off."  There's a difference between "ripping off" and "sounding like."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
I don't think As I Am sounds anything like Metallica, other than having heavy riffing. And once the vocals kick in, forget about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, thinking about the vocal melody, I can picture Hetfield singing it. I can very much see how that song sounds like Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 03, 2014, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
I don't think As I Am sounds anything like Metallica, other than having heavy riffing. And once the vocals kick in, forget about it.

I was just going to say that.   I never for a moment would compare As I Am to Metallica. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 08:48:29 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
I don't think As I Am sounds anything like Metallica, other than having heavy riffing. And once the vocals kick in, forget about it.

Yeah, but same could be said about Constant Motion. Both have certain elements reminiscent of Metallica, but ultimately, also have parts that are nothing like Metallica. And considering that Metallica have always been one of DT's influences, I don't see the big deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, thinking about the vocal melody, I can picture Hetfield singing it. I can very much see how that song sounds like Metallica.

:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

The verse melody (or lack thereof?) in Constant Motion is pure Metallica though. It's mostly the E root note, with the occasional third and lower 7th. That is the limited kind of melody Hetfield is known for, not a wide spanning Mixolydian melody in a high vocal register.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 09:10:46 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

While that may be true, I can definitely picture him singing, "As I Aaaam! Yeyah!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:24:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 09:10:46 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

While that may be true, I can definitely picture him singing, "As I Aaaam! Yeyah!"

Yeah, I can picture it for that line. Although it would be even more Hetfield if he sang it as AS I AAAAAAAAMMMM-AHHHHHHHH! :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on January 03, 2014, 09:29:42 PM
Yeah, only that end part you guys mentioned reminds me of Hetfield.

This Dying Souls Blackened part is a whole other story though!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on January 03, 2014, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:24:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 03, 2014, 09:10:46 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

While that may be true, I can definitely picture him singing, "As I Aaaam! Yeyah!"

Yeah, I can picture it for that line. Although it would be even more Hetfield if he sang it as AS I AAAAAAAAMMMM-AHHHHHHHH! :P
DON'T
TELL ME WHATS EEEHEN
TELL ME HOW TO WRITE-AH
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 03, 2014, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, thinking about the vocal melody, I can picture Hetfield singing it. I can very much see how that song sounds like Metallica.

:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

I'm not talking about octaves or ranges or whatever, I can simply picture him singing the song the way he sings songs. It's not that hard.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on January 04, 2014, 07:59:09 AM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, thinking about the vocal melody, I can picture Hetfield singing it. I can very much see how that song sounds like Metallica.

:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

I'm not talking about octaves or ranges or whatever, I can simply picture him singing the song the way he sings songs. It's not that hard.  :lol

Blob always says that about As I Am, even though it's blatantly obvious that Metallica is a huge influence on that song.  He seems to think because it's in a different range that it doesn't sound like Metallica. Just smile pleasantly and nod.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
Quote from: Jaq on January 04, 2014, 07:59:09 AM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 03, 2014, 09:07:11 PM
Quote from: Nel on January 03, 2014, 08:47:25 PM
Actually, thinking about the vocal melody, I can picture Hetfield singing it. I can very much see how that song sounds like Metallica.

:rollin The vocal melody is so far from Metallica, I don't even know where to start. It has a range of an octave rather than grunting out the root note, and it's not at all a scale Hetfield has ever sung in. And whatever key you put the song in, it would be way out of Hetfield's range anyway. If you can picture Hetfield singing that, you have an amazing imagination, my friend. :P

I'm not talking about octaves or ranges or whatever, I can simply picture him singing the song the way he sings songs. It's not that hard.  :lol

Blob always says that about As I Am, even though it's blatantly obvious that Metallica is a huge influence on that song.  He seems to think because it's in a different range that it doesn't sound like Metallica. Just smile pleasantly and nod.

There's nothing blatant about the influence imo. In this thread and in the past I have given good explanations for why it's actually nothing at all like Metallica well beyond "it's in a different range", so it's not as simplistic as you want to make it at all. I guess you don't understand the technical musical talk?
And don't be so insulting in future.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 04, 2014, 08:18:34 AM
As I Am sounds nothing like Metallica. I don't know what you're on if you think it does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 04, 2014, 09:28:01 AM
I can hear some Hetfieldisms in the way JLB sings the chorus, but musically AIA doesn't sound (much) like Metallica to my ears. On the other hand, Constant Motion has a clear Metallica vibe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2014, 09:34:11 AM
I think the main riff is very much in the style of Metallica's black album. I can almost start singing, "Say your prayers, little one!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on January 04, 2014, 09:37:53 AM
Did I win the argument? I'm just going to assume I won the argument.


 ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 04, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
In this thread and in the past I have given good explanations for why it's actually nothing at all like Metallica well beyond "it's in a different range", so it's not as simplistic as you want to make it at all. I guess you don't understand the technical musical talk?
I think the problem is precisely that you're overanalyzing it. I was in a car with some musically braindead friends of mine and when As I Am came up they immediately went "zomg, this totally sounds like Metallica". If it happens to this many people, it cannot be a coincidence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 04, 2014, 11:30:54 AM
I think  As I AM and Constant Motion both show strong Metallica influences.



Oh and I'm sure I've said this before but Systematic Chaos is still a top (4?) album. Behind Awake , Images and maybe Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on January 04, 2014, 01:26:27 PM
As I Am has stronger influences than Metallica.

https://youtu.be/7sYae25hnKI
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 04, 2014, 01:29:54 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 04, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
In this thread and in the past I have given good explanations for why it's actually nothing at all like Metallica well beyond "it's in a different range", so it's not as simplistic as you want to make it at all. I guess you don't understand the technical musical talk?
I think the problem is precisely that you're overanalyzing it. I was in a car with some musically braindead friends of mine and when As I Am came up they immediately went "zomg, this totally sounds like Metallica". If it happens to this many people, it cannot be a coincidence.

Dude, people who aren't familiar with a band will say all kinds of crap. People I show Dream Theater to say they sound like DragonForce. :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 04:41:38 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 04, 2014, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
In this thread and in the past I have given good explanations for why it's actually nothing at all like Metallica well beyond "it's in a different range", so it's not as simplistic as you want to make it at all. I guess you don't understand the technical musical talk?
I think the problem is precisely that you're overanalyzing it. I was in a car with some musically braindead friends of mine and when As I Am came up they immediately went "zomg, this totally sounds like Metallica". If it happens to this many people, it cannot be a coincidence.

I'm not overanalyzing, it just has very little Metallica influence at all beyond being a heavy song. :lol I get the feeling that people who aren't into metal often just use Metallica/Megadeth as generic catch all comparisons of something sounding metal-ish.
Musically the song is so un-Metallica, and the few parts that sound like Metallica could have played them are no more Metallica than any other similar metal band. My first thought when hearing the song was only the obvious Black Sabbath similarity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 04, 2014, 04:44:55 PM
Don't know what to tell you, Blob.  I've always thought that As I Am had a Metallica vibe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 04, 2014, 04:44:55 PM
Don't know what to tell you, Blob.  I've always thought that As I Am had a Metallica vibe.

And I don't know what to tell you, but I'd been a big Metallica fan for years by that point, and never got the slightest feeling of a Metallica vibe from it. SO NOW WHAT?? :biggrin:
Like, what Metallica song do people think it even sounds similar to? I really want to know. It's not like Constant Motion where I can pick out a section of No Remorse here, or a bit of Disposable Heroes there, or the signature Hetfield melody in the verse. In As I Am, I hear nothing that makes me think of Metallica, even at a surface level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 04, 2014, 05:22:07 PM
It doesn't sound like a particular song.  It just sounds and feels like something that Metallica would do.  Or that they would WANT to do.  It feels in their wheelhouse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Laughingplace56 on January 04, 2014, 05:56:07 PM
The most Metallica sounding songs from them i think are Constant Motion and the first verse of The Glass Prison with MP/JLB going back and forth.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2014, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.


This. I'm tempted to try and do a cover of Enter Sandman using As I Am as the background music, just to see how wll it fits.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 04, 2014, 09:58:29 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 04, 2014, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.


This. I'm tempted to try and do a cover of Enter Sandman using As I Am as the background music, just to see how wll it fits.  :lol

Can I fill in JH's YEAHH HEAHHHHH
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on January 04, 2014, 11:28:27 PM
I forgot that structurally and stylistically, ES and SoC share ideas with WH and Orion respectively. Kind of like I&W and ADTOE. Sound the same... not really at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on January 04, 2014, 11:28:58 PM
Quote from: CableX 1814 on January 04, 2014, 11:28:27 PM
I forgot that structurally and stylistically, ES and SoC share ideas with WH(S) and Orion respectively. Kind of like I&W and ADTOE. Sound the same... not really at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on January 04, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.

It sounds more like the song from the link I posted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: Implode on January 04, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.

It sounds more like the song from the link I posted.

The opening certainly does, but once the song gets going, the riff right before the verse, around 1:25 ish, has a very Enter Sandmanish vibe to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 05, 2014, 02:12:54 AM
The main riff, which is the most important aspect of the song has such a strong Enter Sandman vibe to it that it makes me think that "as I aaaam...yeeeah" is an intentional nod.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 04:15:24 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 05, 2014, 02:12:54 AM
The main riff, which is the most important aspect of the song has such a strong Enter Sandman vibe to it that it makes me think that "as I aaaam...yeeeah" is an intentional nod.

Same here. I wouldn't be all too surprised if it was intentional.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 05:39:45 AM
There's nowhere near enough similarity to make me think that there was any intentional reference.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 05, 2014, 05:41:22 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 05:39:45 AM
There's nowhere near enough similarity to make me think that there was any intentional reference.
I agree.  Even though I get a Metallica "vibe" I don't think there was any intentional reference on the part of the band.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 05, 2014, 06:42:18 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: Implode on January 04, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 04, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
The main riff reminds me a lot of the one from Enter Sandman.

It sounds more like the song from the link I posted.

The opening certainly does, but once the song gets going, the riff right before the verse, around 1:25 ish, has a very Enter Sandmanish vibe to it.

Gotta join in on the "Metallica vibe" side here and agree after re-listening to the song.  At 1:25 I instinctively feel compelled to sing, "Say your prayers little one, don't forget my son, to include every one."  Later in the song it loses it's Metallica vibe, but the opening is very Metallica-y. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 05, 2014, 12:11:13 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 04, 2014, 04:52:54 PM

Like, what Metallica song do people think it even sounds similar to? I really want to know. 

That's what I always say when people tell me I Walk Beside You sounds like U2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 05, 2014, 12:30:10 PM
I don't think it needs to be a specific song.  If the sound is there, and enough people pick up on it, then maybe they are hearing something others aren't.  Breaking it down like: the Bm is conflicting with the A#Major because the 31/32 time signature is not feasible with their style is completely meaningless.   I personally don't hear the Metallica much in As I Am, but that's me.  People told me I was wrong when I said the opening riff to Behind The Veil sounded almost identical to Creeping Death, yet a dozen people I played it for, without giving them any clues as to what I was doing, heard Creeping Death immediately. 

With I Walk Beside You, I hear a U2 influence.  But it's not so much where I'd say they ripped them off.  It's really arduous to not have influences come out in your music at some point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 05, 2014, 12:50:26 PM
It sounds like Bono could sing IWBY, but it doesn't sound like a particular U2 song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: davidolson22 on January 05, 2014, 01:18:43 PM
I always though As I am started as a Black Sabbath style song for the first 1 and a half minutes, then it turns into a Metallica. It's not just the guitar that sounds like Metallica, in the chorus Labrie uses a very limited range of notes much like Hetfield does.

And the intro to Vacant sounds a awful lot like One from Justice for All, except the guitar has been changed into a piano. It's weird though cause I can't imagine Jordan Rudess listening to Metallica.

My impression of Train of Thought was they listened to a ton of Metallica then sat down to write some music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on January 05, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
Even though I don't hear Enter Sandman in the main riff personally, for what it's worth; the two share the same notes. AIA is obviously in C standard and a different rhythm. I hear more ES in a riff from Opeth in April Eretheral  than AIA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
As I Am is awesome, and definitely has a Metallica vibe.  But as far as definite 'nods' (i'd prefer to call them 'rips') Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Only the heavier riffs. The more melodic parts, such as the beginning of the song, sound nothing like Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: davidolson22 on January 05, 2014, 05:22:35 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
As I Am is awesome, and definitely has a Metallica vibe.  But as far as definite 'nods' (i'd prefer to call them 'rips') Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Now that's funny. I agree that the main riff sounds similar to Enter Sandman, however the song as a whole doesn't seem to me to have much of a Metallica style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:27:42 PM
 :\ i guess thats because when its not ripping ES its busy being derivative of Pink Floyd, The Beatles and Hendrix.  Still a great song tho.  Off a great album.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Only the heavier riffs. The more melodic parts, such as the beginning of the song, sound nothing like Metallica.

Well the heavier riffs are built off the clean chord progressions in the start, yeah? Which in itself is the essence of ES.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:35:19 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:27:42 PM
Well the heavier riffs are built off the clean chord progressions in the start, yeah? Which in itself is the essence of ES.

Perhaps, but still, if you take Peruvian Skies, and that whole more melodic, softer part at the beginning absolutely does not remind me of Enter Sandman or anything Metallica related in any way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:35:19 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:27:42 PM
Well the heavier riffs are built off the clean chord progressions in the start, yeah? Which in itself is the essence of ES.

Perhaps, but still, if you take Peruvian Skies, and that whole more melodic, softer part at the beginning absolutely does not remind me of Enter Sandman or anything Metallica related in any way.

Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

For the record, ES in this case stands for Enter Sandman, not Endless Sacrifice.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 06:04:19 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 06:02:50 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

For the record, ES in this case stands for Enter Sandman, not Endless Sacrifice.  :lol

Oh whoops.  I'd been using ES to mean Enter Sandman anyway on account of the fact that I hate Endless Sacrifice.

lolcontroversy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

Maybe it's a case of what I'm not on. :biggrin: In almost a decade on this forum, this is the first I've ever heard of As I Am having any resemblance to Enter Sandman. Given that I've been very familiar with both songs for over a decade, if there was any resemblance, it's something I would have noticed.
I think a lot of people have very "vague" ears. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 05, 2014, 07:56:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

Maybe it's a case of what I'm not on. :biggrin:

Why, did you stop taking your medication again?

:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 07:58:04 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 05, 2014, 07:56:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

Maybe it's a case of what I'm not on. :biggrin:

Why, did you stop taking your medication again?

:neverusethis:

I must have if I let you out of your cage. Get back in there!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 05, 2014, 07:58:43 PM
 :sadpanda:  okay
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 06, 2014, 04:00:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 05, 2014, 07:54:46 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:56:04 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Meh.  I always thought it was pretty obvious.  Even more glaringly obvious when you hear it on Once in a Livetime :lol

In fact it never occurred to me at all until I did hear that performance.

But hey, I thought that Enter Sandman's influence on As I Am was glaringly obvious, but apparently, some people don't hear it, so there's all sorts of craziness in this world, apparently.

I dunno about ES but I definitely hear the Metallica vibe in AIA.  I don't know what Blob's on :lol

Maybe it's a case of what I'm not on. :biggrin: In almost a decade on this forum, this is the first I've ever heard of As I Am having any resemblance to Enter Sandman. Given that I've been very familiar with both songs for over a decade, if there was any resemblance, it's something I would have noticed.
I think a lot of people have very "vague" ears. :biggrin:
You really claim that 6:50 of As I Am, with the riff and the "as I aaeaam...yeah" part doesn't show any resemblance to Metallica? It's like James is doing a James impression. Can't believe this has been going on for three pages now. :lolpalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 06, 2014, 04:19:54 AM
Quote from: CableX 1814 on January 04, 2014, 11:28:27 PM
I forgot that structurally and stylistically, ES and SoC share ideas with WH and Orion respectively. Kind of like I&W and ADTOE. Sound the same... not really at all.

Actually, the "similarity" between SoC and Orion is something that occurred to me the other day. I mean, I haven't looked at it in any detail but I doubt that even the structure has that much in common, but I'm sure that SoC was intended to invoke Orion vibes when it was written. Especially when you look at it's placement on the album, as the penultimate track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:35:45 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Only the heavier riffs. The more melodic parts, such as the beginning of the song, sound nothing like Metallica.

Ummm... Have you heard Bleeding Me before? The intro to it and the intro to Peruvian Skies sound very similar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 05:31:40 AM
Quote from: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:35:45 AM
Ummm... Have you heard Bleeding Me before?

No, I have not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 06, 2014, 05:46:14 AM
Give it a listen. It's one of the best songs on Load (actually, I think it's one of the best Metallica songs period) and you'll recognize the inspiration for that Peruvian Skies intro right away.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 05:56:50 AM
Quote from: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:35:45 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Only the heavier riffs. The more melodic parts, such as the beginning of the song, sound nothing like Metallica.

Ummm... Have you heard Bleeding Me before? The intro to it and the intro to Peruvian Skies sound very similar.

Yes, they do have their similarities. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 06, 2014, 06:01:03 AM
They're not that close either. They both start with a similar tempo clean guitar in E (Eb in the case of Metallica, but they're playing in E, so close enough) with a vaguely similar bluesy vibe (which is nothing unique), but that's faaaaaaaar from inspiration.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
Inspired or not As I Am is better than anything Metallica has ever written. Period.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: davidolson22 on January 06, 2014, 09:24:27 AM
Some Dream Theater songs seem to be inspired by James Bond:

(Die) Another Day
(The world is) Never Enough

Maybe I'm imagining it though
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 06, 2014, 09:25:51 AM
"Seasons change and so can I"

"Seasons change and so did I, you need not wonder whyyyyyyyyyyyy" -I forget the name of this song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
Inspired or not As I Am is better than anything Metallica has ever written. Period.

Well, that's a given.

As I Am is awesome enough to have inspired Metallica's Black Album 12 years prior to its own release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 06, 2014, 09:47:12 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
Inspired or not As I Am is better than anything Metallica has ever written. Period.

Well, that's a given.

As I Am is awesome enough to have inspired Metallica's Black Album 12 years prior to its own release.

Nah, I think it actually inspired MAster of Puppets instead, which makes As I Am even MORE awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:54:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
Inspired or not As I Am is better than anything Metallica has ever written. Period.

Well, that's a given.

As I Am is awesome enough to have inspired Metallica's Black Album 12 years prior to its own release.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 10:01:08 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 06, 2014, 09:54:51 AM
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

Stupid writing and lack of tone. No, it's not sarcasm. As I Am kicks more ass than any Metallica song.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 06, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:35:45 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 05, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 05, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Enter Sandman = Peruvian Skies.

Only the heavier riffs. The more melodic parts, such as the beginning of the song, sound nothing like Metallica.

Ummm... Have you heard Bleeding Me before? The intro to it and the intro to Peruvian Skies sound very similar.

Yep, the similarity there was blatantly obvious to me the very first time I heard Peruvian Skies.  That's up there with This Dying Soul/Blackened, Solitary Shell/Yes, etc. as far as similarities in DT songs that were obvious to me on the first listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 06, 2014, 10:25:53 AM
DT's my favorite band, but there are so many better Metallica songs than As I Am.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 10:51:07 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 06, 2014, 10:25:53 AM
DT's my favorite band, but there are so many better Metallica songs than As I Am.

I really don't have a favorite band, but pretty much this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 11:56:42 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 06, 2014, 10:25:53 AM
DT's my favorite band, but there are so many better Metallica songs than As I Am.

I only really ever liked the Black Album, but let's be honest here, at least half of the songs on it are better than As I Am.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 06, 2014, 12:02:05 PM
 I really liked Metallica up to the Black Album. Since then they went down Pop Music Lane, and then sounded way too forced when they tried to come back to more "organic" metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 12:04:28 PM
Metallica doesn't do much for me these days.  I've grown bored with them.  There are maybe a handful of songs I'd probably say are still good to me and with the exception of Bleeding Me, none of them are more recent than the Black Album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 06, 2014, 12:09:20 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on January 06, 2014, 12:02:05 PM
I really liked Metallica up to the Black Album. Since then they went down Pop Music Lane, and then sounded way too forced when they tried to come back to more "organic" metal.

 ???

I won't defend a lot of the crap they've put out in the last 20 years, but Pop Music Lane?  What songs on Load, ReLoad or St. Anger sound like pop music?  I'd love to know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 06, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
 Not pop like LAdy GAga or Miley Cyrus, but more like Bon Jovi, Cinderella etc...

 Example of songs like that: Hero of the Day, Until It Sleeps, that Mission Impossible song and a bunch of others. Then they tried to return to a heavier sound, and an aberration called St. Anger came to life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 12:31:15 PM
So it's gone from being controversial opinions about DT to common opinions about Metallica. :lol

You could pick a handful of songs from their first four albums far superior to As I Am, which is still a pretty cool song. At least that's where my first thoughts went, whereas most went straight to post-Black album Metallica it seems.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
Well, I admit, I'm not very familiar with Metallica's discography. At least not extensively. But I will say that As I Am is better than anything on Master of Puppets and the Black Album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 12:37:58 PM
Enter Sandman and Sad but True are levels of awesome that As I Am can only dream of. I mean, AIA is a good song, don't get me wrong, but in the grander scheme of things it's nowhere near top shelf.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 06, 2014, 12:41:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
Well, I admit, I'm not very familiar with Metallica's discography. At least not extensively. But I will say that As I Am is better than anything on Master of Puppets and the Black Album.

 :facepalm:

I am not even that big of a Metallica fan, but nearly every song on Master of Puppets destroys As I Am, as does the majority of The Black Album, especially the deeper cuts like The God That Failed, Of Wolf and Man, My Friend of Misery, and Don't Tread on Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 12:41:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 12:37:58 PM
Enter Sandman and Sad but True are levels of awesome that As I Am can only dream of. I mean, AIA is a good song, don't get me wrong, but in the grander scheme of things it's nowhere near top shelf.

I actually prefer Wherever I May Roam to all of those
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 06, 2014, 12:46:56 PM
I'm not really a Metallica fan, although I like some of their stuff, but quite many of their songs are better than As I Am.
Quote from: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 12:37:58 PM
AIA is a good song, don't get me wrong, but in the grander scheme of things it's nowhere near top shelf.
:iagree:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
Well, I admit, I'm not very familiar with Metallica's discography. At least not extensively. But I will say that As I Am is better than anything on Master of Puppets and the Black Album.

Pretty much every song on Master of Puppets far surpasses As I Am IMO. AIA is a great song, and pretty kick ass, true, but I can't see it beating out anything on MoP. Same goes for at least half of the Black album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
Pretty much every song on Master of Puppets far surpasses As I Am IMO. AIA is a great song, and pretty kick ass, true, but I can't see it beating out anything on MoP. Same goes for at least half of the Black album.
And half of Ride the Lightning...
And half of Kill 'Em All.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 06, 2014, 12:41:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
Well, I admit, I'm not very familiar with Metallica's discography. At least not extensively. But I will say that As I Am is better than anything on Master of Puppets and the Black Album.

 :facepalm:

I am not even that big of a Metallica fan, but nearly every song on Master of Puppets destroys As I Am, as does the majority of The Black Album, especially the deeper cuts like The God That Failed, Of Wolf and Man, My Friend of Misery, and Don't Tread on Me.

Well, that's, just, like, your opinion, man.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
It's a pretty good opinion. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
It's a pretty good opinion. :tup

It's also equally as valid as my opinion that As I Am is better than anything on those two albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 01:04:13 PM
Most of the Black Album is just mediocre. AJFA was the last solid CD they put out, IMO of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
Pretty much every song on Master of Puppets far surpasses As I Am IMO. AIA is a great song, and pretty kick ass, true, but I can't see it beating out anything on MoP. Same goes for at least half of the Black album.
And half of Ride the Lightning...
And half of Kill 'Em All.....

I'm tempted to say all of AJFA as well. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 01:15:09 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 01:04:59 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 12:49:03 PM
Pretty much every song on Master of Puppets far surpasses As I Am IMO. AIA is a great song, and pretty kick ass, true, but I can't see it beating out anything on MoP. Same goes for at least half of the Black album.
And half of Ride the Lightning...
And half of Kill 'Em All.....

I'm tempted to say all of AJFA as well. :biggrin:

You should give in to that temptation.    :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on January 06, 2014, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 01:04:13 PM
Most of the Black Album is just mediocre. AJFA was the last solid CD they put out, IMO of course.
This. And I'd say most material on their first 4 albums is as good or better than As I Am, which is still a pretty great song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on January 06, 2014, 02:26:45 PM
I have never seen a thread on this forum stay so consistently off-topic (or so close to it) for such an extended period of time. So as a way to get back on track....


From a musical standpoint,YOU NOT ME IS THE BEST SONG DT HAS EVER WRITTEN.
jk
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 06, 2014, 02:27:50 PM
Oh no. The "music can be objective" is imminent.


Take cover.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 06, 2014, 02:28:45 PM
I don't think there's any point comparing AIA with Metallica songs and claiming one is definitively "better" than the other. They're different styles of music, guys. Metallica are/were a thrash/speed metal band, DT are prog metal. Now I'm guessing that the majority of us here are more inclined towards the proggier side of things, so clearly we are going to take AIA other many Metallica tunes in many cases. But that's just because, as prog fans, we find that particular song more palatable.

Yes, AIA seems to be clearly Metallica-inspired, and similarities exist. Still, there are many progressive elements in there that you simply wouldn't find in a Metallica song. Ergo, I don't believe a direct comparison is called for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: Joshin U on January 06, 2014, 02:26:45 PM
I have never seen a thread on this forum stay so consistently off-topic (or so close to it) for such an extended period of time. So as a way to get back on track....


From a musical standpoint,YOU NOT ME IS THE BEST SONG DT HAS EVER WRITTEN.
jk


Well, technically speaking, the song wasn't written by DT alone, so it doesn't count. Lawyered!


Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 06, 2014, 02:28:45 PM
I don't think there's any point comparing AIA with Metallica songs and claiming one is definitively "better" than the other. They're different styles of music, guys. Metallica are/were a thrash/speed metal band, DT are prog metal. Now I'm guessing that the majority of us here are more inclined towards the proggier side of things, so clearly we are going to take AIA other many Metallica tunes in many cases. But that's just because, as prog fans, we find that particular song more palatable.

Yes, AIA seems to be clearly Metallica-inspired, and similarities exist. Still, there are many progressive elements in there that you simply wouldn't find in a Metallica song. Ergo, I don't believe a direct comparison is called for.
I think Master of Puppets is the perfect example of a Metallica song which has some very progressive elements.

But As I Am is one of those DT songs that's just consistently awesome all throughout. There's really not a single section about it that's less than amazing. (Except for "I've been wasting my breath on you, open minds will descend upon you". I hate repeating rhymes, but that's a very minor nitpick.) But musically, every section in it is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on January 06, 2014, 02:45:46 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
Well, technically speaking, the song wasn't written by DT alone, so it doesn't count. Lawyered!

SHIT

I would say that ANTR's "rorororo" is the most emotional DT has ever been, but y'all seem way too embedded in your Metallica debate to care :sadpanda:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 06, 2014, 02:28:45 PM
I don't think there's any point comparing AIA with Metallica songs and claiming one is definitively "better" than the other. They're different styles of music, guys. Metallica are/were a thrash/speed metal band, DT are prog metal. Now I'm guessing that the majority of us here are more inclined towards the proggier side of things, so clearly we are going to take AIA other many Metallica tunes in many cases. But that's just because, as prog fans, we find that particular song more palatable.

Yes, AIA seems to be clearly Metallica-inspired, and similarities exist. Still, there are many progressive elements in there that you simply wouldn't find in a Metallica song. Ergo, I don't believe a direct comparison is called for.
I think Master of Puppets is the perfect example of a Metallica song which has some very progressive elements.

I would also throw in Orion and much of AJFA, namely the title track and One.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 02:57:31 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 06, 2014, 02:50:30 PM

I would also throw in Orion

Yeah, but I think that regardless of a band's genre, the vast majority of instrumental tracks out there inherently have progressive elements. I mean, in most cases, instrumentals don't follow the "verse chorus verse chorus solo chorus" formula. Although, I have heard some that were done that way, with guitar solos instead of vocals. But in most cases, instrumentals have an evolving and varying structure to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 03:00:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 02:57:31 PM
Yeah, but I think that regardless of a band's genre, the vast majority of instrumental tracks out there inherently have progressive elements.

Not this one.   ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoPzjWjBZNY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoPzjWjBZNY)

Just because it's instrumental doesn't mean it's proggy.  I could rattle of a mess of non-proggy instrumentals. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 03:55:43 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on January 06, 2014, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 01:04:13 PM
Most of the Black Album is just mediocre. AJFA was the last solid CD they put out, IMO of course.
This. And I'd say most material on their first 4 albums is as good or better than As I Am, which is still a pretty great song.

I'm not a big fan of Kill Em All either.  So I'd say RTL, MOP, and AJFA are where there strongest songs are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 04:09:18 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 06, 2014, 03:00:57 PM

Just because it's instrumental doesn't mean it's proggy.  I could rattle of a mess of non-proggy instrumentals.

Define proggy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 06, 2014, 04:15:28 PM
oh goodness no
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
So how about them controversial DT opinions?

I think Trial of Tears is overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:19:16 PM
I like Trial of Tears, but I think Voices is overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 04:20:23 PM
I love Trial of Tears! But I do think it's overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:21:47 PM
Yeah, I think it's a great song and all, I just don't quite understand why some people seem to think it's the best thing ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:28:50 PM
Well, I'm not quite sure what popular opinion is on that one, but if it is something like top 20, I agree with it. Top 10 is stretching it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 06, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
So how about them controversial DT opinions?

I think Trial of Tears is overrated.

So YOU killed Scorpion!  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 06:21:24 PM
 :lol

...

 :|

...

Oh god maybe I did!   :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 06, 2014, 06:22:20 PM
:sad:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 06, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
So how about them controversial DT opinions?

I think Trial of Tears is overrated.

So YOU killed Scorpion!  :o

Does that make him Sub-Zero?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 06, 2014, 06:35:45 PM
I think both Trial of Tears and Voices deserve the acclaim that they tend to receive among fans. I think they represent some of the best music compositionally that DT have ever created.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 08:03:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 06, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
So how about them controversial DT opinions?

I think Trial of Tears is overrated.

So YOU killed Scorpion!  :o

Does that make him Sub-Zero?
(https://mutantreviewers.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/runningman2.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 08:05:05 PM
Trial of Tears is a beautiful masterpiece.  I think that the problem people have with it, and that I had with it at first, is that it's slow tempoed. There are no catchy parts for most of the song.  It's a different kind of Dream Theater song and rises above a sea of mediocre songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 06, 2014, 08:06:31 PM
I have no issue with slow tempo songs. ???

I just think DT have better songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 06, 2014, 08:16:12 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on January 06, 2014, 06:35:45 PM
I think both Trial of Tears and Voices deserve the acclaim that they tend to receive among fans. I think they represent some of the best music compositionally that DT have ever created.

This.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 06, 2014, 08:19:32 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 06, 2014, 08:03:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 06, 2014, 06:27:54 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 06, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 06, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
So how about them controversial DT opinions?

I think Trial of Tears is overrated.

So YOU killed Scorpion!  :o

Does that make him Sub-Zero?
(https://mutantreviewers.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/runningman2.jpg)


"I hope you leave enough room for my fist because I'm going to ram it into your stomach and break your goddamn spine!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 06, 2014, 08:35:53 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 06, 2014, 08:06:31 PM
I have no issue with slow tempo songs. ???

I just think DT have better songs.

Okay, maybe that isn't everyone's problem with it then.   :P 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on January 06, 2014, 09:35:25 PM
Quote from: 425 on January 06, 2014, 04:19:16 PM
I like Trial of Tears, but I think Voices is overrated.
Trial of Tears is a boring snoozefest. Voices is their best song damnit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 01:53:06 AM
Trial of Tears is far superior to anything on I&W OR Awake.

EDIT: Except for LTL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 07, 2014, 02:11:31 AM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 01:53:06 AM
Trial of Tears is far superior to anything on I&W OR Awake.

Now that IS controversial!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 02:29:48 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 07, 2014, 02:11:31 AM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 01:53:06 AM
Trial of Tears is far superior to anything on I&W OR Awake.

Now that IS controversial!

Haha... completely forgot about LTL when I made that post! Although now I've made that edit it kinda reduces the impact of that claim.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 07, 2014, 02:59:43 AM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 02:29:48 AM
Haha... completely forgot about LTL when I made that post! Although now I've made that edit it kinda reduces the impact of that claim.  :P

Reduces, but doesn't eliminate. There's still Metropolis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 07, 2014, 04:08:00 AM
Still like ToT more!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 07, 2014, 04:17:07 AM
Trial of Tears didn't do anything for me the first time I heard it. After that, I can recall skipping it a couple of times at the "it's raining part". Now I think it might be the best thing DT has ever written. This is the best kind of experience music can offer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 07, 2014, 09:00:01 AM
Voices is the worst song on Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on January 07, 2014, 09:09:09 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 07, 2014, 09:00:01 AM
Voices is the worst song on Awake.

I'm curious; do you mean you enjoy it the least/it does nothing for you, or is there another reason why you truly believe it is musically terrible?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 07, 2014, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 07, 2014, 09:00:01 AM
Voices is the worst song on Awake.

:hifive: totally agree

And Trial Of Tears is a masterpiece
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 07, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
I relistened to Enigma Machine a couple of days ago and came to the conclusion that it's a bottom 10 DT song... I just don't like it :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on January 07, 2014, 01:37:35 PM
I could never get into Trial of Tears. The song never did anything for me, I just thought the solos were cool and that was it. I don't think it's overrated however, I can see the appeal and the "masterpiece" in the song. I just feel absolutely nothing when I listen to it. Perhaps I just haven't listened to it enough (only a few times here or there), but as of now it misses out on my top 50 :lol I feel like that is at least a bit controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.

(https://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/come_fe9990_1295498.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 07, 2014, 02:30:11 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.

I'd say FII is more consistent.

WDADU, though... Not so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 07, 2014, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.

Just no.







Although FII is an excellent album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 07, 2014, 09:35:01 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.



OK - you asked for it............














I agree  ;D

But then (aside from SDOIT Disc Two) there's only the odd track on each disc I really love in the run from SDOIT to SC  (or in the case of SDOIT Disc One ,parts of tracks) , so I'm in a very small minority - in a phone box actually.  The other albums I :hefdaddy

Hopefully at least ? will be proud of us :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 08, 2014, 12:19:12 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 07, 2014, 09:10:28 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.

Just no.  :tup :tup :tup :tup







Although FII is an.....album.  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 08, 2014, 04:06:43 AM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on January 07, 2014, 02:04:33 PM
Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite are is better than Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence.
Fixed for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 04:45:19 AM
DT are not that good live.

Let me justify this, if I may. I first saw DT at a small club (800 people) in about 1993 and they blew my f*cking socks off. I've seen them play larger and larger venues in the UK until October 2005, when they played 2 nights at the Hammersmith Apollo (a 5,000 capacity theater), the second of these was the DSOTM performance. Every single time they blew me away. So far, so good.

After that, things went a bit downhill. They moved up to Wembley Arena (12,500 capacity), where they've played every tour since. And as a result, I haven't enjoyed the shows as much - this venue is just too big for DT, and they're kind of lost in it - I know they're popular, but their brand of music just isn't arena suitable, IMO. Their Wembley shows have gone downhill, partially as a result of a pretty poor show on the BC&SL tour, which has seen the rear of the venue curtained-off, and even the side tiers empty. On the last tour I think they played Silent Man and Beneath The Surface, but the shit acoustics in this cattle-shed venue mean that all I could hear was a-holes in the audience talking loudly to each other all the way thru.

All of which is fine as far as it goes. On the last few tours I've travelled to Leeds to see the band in a smaller and more suitable venue, and they've been f*cking brilliant, and I've had a great time. Next month I'm off to Wolves to see them there.

But the downside is the huge increase in ticket prices. I've got all my old ticket stubs, and they're all in the UKP30-40 bracket. Suddenly they're up to UKP60, and even UKP90 if you want a good seat. Rush put on a stonking arena show, one of the best I've ever seen, for UKP66. DT's show, both sound-wise and visually, just doesn't compare. The sound at DT shows has always been too harsh, and since they stopped rotating setlists, the setlist selection hasn't been that inspired either. The cost of travelling to Leeds - Wolves has also added to the overall cost, of course. 

So for a variety of reasons, I just don't enjoy DT shows as much as I used to. Perhaps I'm just getting old.

I'm off to Wembley next month to see them, but it was a post-Xmas afterthought rather than an essential concert experience. I'm travelling to Wolves the day after to see them again. It's costing me a fortune.

I suspect these might be my last DT shows for a while. I still love the band, but seeing them live is no longer the essential it once was. DT live just ain't that good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 08, 2014, 05:31:26 AM
Fair do's. I don't understand the sudden drastic increase in UK ticket prices either, although to be fair I don't know how much that has to do with the actual band. Maybe it's just an industry thing.

Another thing I don't get is why so many DT shows are seated events now. I hate being stuck in one place and not being able to venture up to the front.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 05:36:39 AM
Seating is fine for Barry Manilow or Lionel Ritchie concerts. Rock n' Roll is best enjoyed standing, goddammit. Put seats round the sides/back for those who want 'em, and leave the stalls general admission standing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 08, 2014, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 04:45:19 AM
DT are not that good live.
Oh, I thought you meant they weren't a good live band, that would have been indeed controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 06:15:45 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 08, 2014, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 04:45:19 AM
DT are not that good live.
Oh, I thought you meant they weren't a good live band, that would have been indeed controversial.

And insane.


As for the seated venues, I personally prefer it that way. I already go to enough concerts where people desperately try to push their way to the front to such extent where things are so uncomfortable you almost can't enjoy the music. I mean, i'm lucky cause I'm a relatively stronger guy and I can actually maintain my spot up front, but even then, if I want to go to the bathroom, it's impossible without losing my spot up front for good.
With seated venues, you know exactly where you're gonna be when you buy your ticket, and nobody can take that away from you. And you don't have to squish together with a bunch of assholes who just shove their way to the front without giving a crap about the people who got there extra early just so they could be in the front row.
It depends on the band, too. Some bands lend themselves better to a loud, crazy, borderline violent atmosphere with mosh pits and people cramming their way to the front. But Dream Theater is definitely not one of those bands. When I go to a DT show, I really want to be able to enjoy the music, and I think it's a lot easier when you have your seat, and a certain amount of personal space around you. Especially when you get VIP tickets and end up with posters, or signed CD or whatever else you have on you that you don't want ruined.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
The problem with seated venues is if you get a seat behind a group of drunken yahoos who seem intent on talking to each other all the way thru the show. You can't move away from them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
The problem with seated venues is if you get a seat behind a group of drunken yahoos who seem intent on talking to each other all the way thru the show. You can't move away from them.

Well, when it comes to acoustics, it's really something that should be addressed at the venue. Obviously, you can't have the same volume and quality of music consistent in every little corner of the venue, but they still need to make sure that it's loud enough throughout the entire venue.

Although quite frankly, I can't even fathom why someone would go to a Dream Theater concert, just to get drunk and talk to their friends throughout the whole thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 08, 2014, 07:51:47 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 08, 2014, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 04:45:19 AM
DT are not that good live.
Oh, I thought you meant they weren't a good live band, that would have been indeed controversial.

I'd call DT a good live band, but not great.  I mean, they are great if you are merely into watching a handful of guys stand there and play technically proficient music really well, but other than that, from a visual standpoint, there is usually very little about them that is outstanding.  Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed the hell out of it almost every time I have seen them, but that is more because of my love for their music. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on January 08, 2014, 07:57:32 AM
Although the majority of concerts I go to are standing room-only, I do prefer DT to have seating as well just because they aren't the type of band you need to be crowding at the front and moshing for, which is usually the case for standing room indoor venues.  I get a better, consistent view of the band with seating and, as mentioned before, I don't need to be worried about losing my place if I want to get a drink.  And frankly, I like the opportunity to sit during songs I'm not as enthusiastic about, especially because DT concerts can run pretty long, whether it's Evening With format or no.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 08:02:40 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 08, 2014, 07:51:47 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 08, 2014, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 08, 2014, 04:45:19 AM
DT are not that good live.
Oh, I thought you meant they weren't a good live band, that would have been indeed controversial.

I'd call DT a good live band, but not great.  I mean, they are great if you are merely into watching a handful of guys stand there and play technically proficient music really well, but other than that, from a visual standpoint, there is usually very little about them that is outstanding.  Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed the hell out of it almost every time I have seen them, but that is more because of my love for their music.

This, completely. I mean, they've gotten a ton better over the years, but it's still for the most part a somewhat rigid performance. DT just doesn't have a strong front man who engages the crowd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 08:19:36 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 08, 2014, 07:51:47 AM
I'd call DT a good live band, but not great.  I mean, they are great if you are merely into watching a handful of guys stand there and play technically proficient music really well, but other than that, from a visual standpoint, there is usually very little about them that is outstanding.

I disagree. I mean, strictly from a musical dexterity point of view, to watch JP or JR play their instruments, and just see the intricacies and the speed of their playing is extremely entertaining. And a much more engaging experience, than the typical band that doesn't use excessive theatrics. I mean, obviously, there's a lot to be said for an Iron Maiden, Alice Cooper or a Disturbed concert, where they put a lot of focus on the visual presentation. But I think DT more than makes up for its lack of theatrics, with their musical dexterity. Of course, it does have its limits, since you either have to be really close to see it, or watch it on the projection screens at the venu. But my point is that given a proper viewing accessibility, I think their musical dexterity has plenty of visual appeal. And yes, recently, I think JLB stepped up his stage presence big time, compared to, say LAB or Score.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 08:53:35 AM
I think that's partially the problem, that they rely on the musical dexterity for their performance a lot. If you're in a big arena, you're forced to watch the screen the whole time. When I do that for prolonged amount of time, I feel like I'm watching a DVD with really bad sound.
The other is probably just plain age. Kev and I have probably seen DT live more than 20 times each (well, at least I have). I *know* they can play the stuff live, I don't need the "live proof" so to speak. So for me it becomes all the more important that the band carries their performances through normal means (crowd interaction, lots of movement onstage etc), and DT is solid middle ground on that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 09:14:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 08:53:35 AM
I think that's partially the problem, that they rely on the musical dexterity for their performance a lot. If you're in a big arena, you're forced to watch the screen the whole time. When I do that for prolonged amount of time, I feel like I'm watching a DVD with really bad sound.
The other is probably just plain age. Kev and I have probably seen DT live more than 20 times each (well, at least I have). I *know* they can play the stuff live, I don't need the "live proof" so to speak. So for me it becomes all the more important that the band carries their performances through normal means (crowd interaction, lots of movement onstage etc), and DT is solid middle ground on that one.

Yeah, but their music is too complex and intricate to be jumping around on stage or spinning their hair while they do their thing. Usually bands that are able to do that, tend to have much simpler style of music. And seeing a couple of dudes with long blonde hair, spinning it while doing their guitar solos, while their vocalist jumps up and runs around all over the stage isn't all that great, if the music isn't stellar. So I wouldn't want JP to sacrifice his musical complexity just so that he can interact with the audience more.

And it really depends on how big the arena is. I mean, if we're talking really huge venues, then I don't see the appeal of being in the nosebleed section, no matter what the band is. Whether it's Iron Maiden, or DT, the nosebleed of a gigantic arena still has very limited appeal to me. Don't even get me started on stadium shows. The only appeal of being in the back of a gigantic football stadium is the sheer novelty of saying, "I saw Queen," or "Michael Jackson" live. I can't even think of a single living celebrity or band that I'd pay money to see in that kind of circumstance.

Point is, when it comes to DT, I wouldn't settle for being in the back anyway. Especially if I did see them 20+ times. So I can understand where you're coming from, but if you can't get a ticket close to the front, I guess you're better off not attending the show at all. And those people who are new to DT, I'm sure they'll appreciate any spot they can get. The first time I saw them, I sat pretty far back, but I still relished the idea of seeing them live, so I loved every moment of it. They didn't need to be jumping all around the stage and interacting with the audience like Dee Snider.

But again, I think that DT's stage presence overall has improved tremendously throughout the years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 08, 2014, 09:33:23 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 08:53:35 AM
I think that's partially the problem, that they rely on the musical dexterity for their performance a lot.

It's not that they "rely" on that factor, it's just that the style of music they play demands it. If I'm going to watch a band play that type of music, then they better nail it or I'm not interested!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.

A musician is an entertainer. When you're seeing a band live, they're putting on a show, not just playing the same music you can hear on an album at home. That's why DT has the crazy keyboard stand, the video screen, the backdrop, the custom mic stand and drum heads, etc.
And KISS doesn't play boring music. GTFO. :getoffmylawn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.

This, very much. Not to take anything away from Kiss or Twisted Sister, I think both are great bands in their own right, but you hear a kiss song on the album, and it's catchy and it's got some cool riffs maybe, but beyond that, it's fairly simple stuff. Same for Twisted Sister. Those bands NEED a good show in order to captivate the audience, and they're great at it, which is why they're still selling tickets. Without their awesome stage shows, they would have very little going for them in terms of a live show.
With Dream Theater, their music deserves the right amount of attention, in order to be played correctly. Take it for what it is, but in light of all of Bruce Dickinson's wonderful stage presence, he throws away half the notes in the songs he performs, just screaming them out theatrically. That's his style and that's how half of Iron Maiden's vocals always have been anyway, so they don't even require the right notes to work effectively. That is not the case for Dream Theater. They're very focused on melody and precision, so if JLB was running around the stage and constantly engaging the audience, but then just theatrically screaming the vocals instead of actually singing them, it would not work nearly as well for Dream Theater.

It's apples and oranges, really.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
A musician is an entertainer. When you're seeing a band live, they're putting on a show, not just playing the same music you can hear on an album at home. That's why DT has the crazy keyboard stand, the video screen, the backdrop, the custom mic stand and drum heads, etc.
And KISS doesn't play boring music. GTFO. :getoffmylawn:

Yeah, but who cares about the video screen? No one cares about those videos that DT has in the background anyway...


 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.

A musician is an entertainer. When you're seeing a band live, they're putting on a show, not just playing the same music you can hear on an album at home. That's why DT has the crazy keyboard stand, the video screen, the backdrop, the custom mic stand and drum heads, etc.
And KISS doesn't play boring music. GTFO. :getoffmylawn:

Yes, they are entertainers, but not in the same way as bands like KISS or One Direction. They bring something different to the stage. That comparison of musicians/entertainers is actually something taken directly from Gene Simmons.  I kind of agree with him there.  The focal point of a DT show is worlds apart from that of a KISS show.  So there will always be a clear cut difference between both worlds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Joshin U on January 08, 2014, 10:02:19 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.

A musician is an entertainer. When you're seeing a band live, they're putting on a show, not just playing the same music you can hear on an album at home. That's why DT has the crazy keyboard stand, the video screen, the backdrop, the custom mic stand and drum heads, etc.
And KISS doesn't play boring music. GTFO. :getoffmylawn:

Yes, they are entertainers, but not in the same way as bands like KISS or One Direction. They bring something different to the stage. That comparison of musicians/entertainers is actually something taken directly from Gene Simmons.  I kind of agree with him there.  The focal point of a DT show is worlds apart from that of a KISS show.  So there will always be a clear cut difference between both worlds.

 This. Same reason why that when people find out that Britney Spears is lip syncing her shows, they don't care, because they aren't really there to watch her SING, they're there to watch her PERFORM. On the other hand, god forbid that DT lip sync, because the fans would be out for blood.  The live playing is the main purpose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 09:49:38 AM
This, very much. Not to take anything away from Kiss or Twisted Sister, I think both are great bands in their own right, but you hear a kiss song on the album, and it's catchy and it's got some cool riffs maybe, but beyond that, it's fairly simple stuff. Same for Twisted Sister. Those bands NEED a good show in order to captivate the audience, and they're great at it, which is why they're still selling tickets. Without their awesome stage shows, they would have very little going for them in terms of a live show.

How is that not taking anything away from Kiss?  :\ The thing that makes their music great is that it's simple and catchy. If you've ever actually seen anything of Kiss live, you'd see they don't need the stage show to put on a great show at all. Gene and Paul are both born performers, and great frontmen. Paul Stanley is one of the all time rock greats. They've done shows without the theatrics, without the makeup, and the music holds up on its own. And it holds up on its own when I'm cranking their CDs without the benefit of all of that. :tup People go to hear the ton of hits they know and love. That's plenty of incentive to go and see them. Prog fans gonna hate.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 09:49:38 AM
Yeah, but who cares about the video screen? No one cares about those videos that DT has in the background anyway...


 :biggrin:

You're not my friend any more.  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 10:04:28 AM
Quote from: Joshin U on January 08, 2014, 10:02:19 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 AM
I don't see what the big deal is.  It's not like we're talking about KISS here who play the same boring music over and over again. They have their schtick and it's not technical proficiency, it's their stage gimmick.  Dream Theater are different.  They are musicians, not entertainers. I also must say that I've never been to a concert of theirs, and I, too, have seen them over 20 times, and thought them to not interact with the crowd enough especially considering the kind of music they are playing.

A musician is an entertainer. When you're seeing a band live, they're putting on a show, not just playing the same music you can hear on an album at home. That's why DT has the crazy keyboard stand, the video screen, the backdrop, the custom mic stand and drum heads, etc.
And KISS doesn't play boring music. GTFO. :getoffmylawn:

Yes, they are entertainers, but not in the same way as bands like KISS or One Direction. They bring something different to the stage. That comparison of musicians/entertainers is actually something taken directly from Gene Simmons.  I kind of agree with him there.  The focal point of a DT show is worlds apart from that of a KISS show.  So there will always be a clear cut difference between both worlds.

 This. Same reason why that when people find out that Britney Spears is lip syncing her shows, they don't care, because they aren't really there to watch her SING, they're there to watch her PERFORM. On the other hand, god forbid that DT lip sync, because the fans would be out for blood.  The live playing is the main purpose.

Excellent point regarding Britney.  She dances and what not and people care more about that than what the backing musicians are doing. Her fans like singing along with her sappy lyrics. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 10:07:32 AM
Eh. This thread is right now a "other artists make shit music, so of course they have to make up for it somehow. DT doesn't need that, so they can stand still."

Believe it or not, someone like Frank Zappa made far more challenging music than DT ever made, and still was an excellent entertainer at the same time, all the while performing the music to near perfection. I think DT could take a leaf or two from Zappa's book to make their concerts more engaging.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:11:33 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 10:07:32 AM
Eh. This thread is right now a "other artists make shit music, so of course they have to make up for it somehow. DT doesn't need that, so they can stand still."

:lol Pretty much.
Although MM (and previously MP) and JR are entertaining given the restricted mobility dictated by their instruments, and DT do put effort into other areas of their live shows to make it a good show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 08, 2014, 10:11:55 AM
Yep, it is possible to be great musicians and entertain at the same time.  One need only look at Queen for proof of that.

Hell, Rush's music is pretty difficult, but you often see Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson interacting and goofing around on stage with faces and whatnot, which entertains the crowd.  Whenever you see JLB or Myung try to interact with JP, he always smiles, but he sort of has that "What is he doing over here?" look on his face, like, "Damn it, he is gonna distract me from playing!" :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 10:17:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 10:07:32 AM
Eh. This thread is right now a "other artists make shit music, so of course they have to make up for it somehow. DT doesn't need that, so they can stand still."

Believe it or not, someone like Frank Zappa made far more challenging music than DT ever made, and still was an excellent entertainer at the same time, all the while performing the music to near perfection. I think DT could take a leaf or two from Zappa's book to make their concerts more engaging.

Your first paragraph is way off from what anyone here has been saying. As a matter of fact it comes off as a bit dramatic and exaggeratory.

Secondly, you point out one eccentric musician and that means the rest have to follow suit? Like I said, I've never had issue with DT's stage presence.  I don't want them running all over the stage when I am trying to watch them play.  I think they engage the crowd enough and we know that a huge percentage of the crowd are extremely content with the way they personify themselves on stage. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:02:39 AM
And it holds up on its own when I'm cranking their CDs without the benefit of all of that.
I'm not disagreeing. I could say the same thing about Alice Cooper. But that's the thing, if they just stood there like a bunch of trees, just playing that simple and catchy music, without interacting with the audience and without their immense stage presence, then you might as well just sit there and listen to the CD.

But in DT's case, even if JP just stands there playing the music, without engaging the audience at all, his musical dexterity and skill is still entertaining to watch. And it's not like that's the case anyway. DT still does engage the audience and each other and bring more to the show than just the music itself.

Quote from: KevShmev on January 08, 2014, 10:11:55 AM
Yep, it is possible to be great musicians and entertain at the same time.  One need only look at Queen for proof of that.

Hell, Rush's music is pretty difficult, but you often see Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson interacting and goofing around on stage with faces and whatnot, which entertains the crowd.  Whenever you see JLB or Myung try to interact with JP, he always smiles, but he sort of has that "What is he doing over here?" look on his face, like, "Damn it, he is gonna distract me from playing!" :lol

Queen was a very special case. With Queen, they really approached their live shows "punk rock" style. They just went up there and did their thing and yes, Freddie brought tremendous stage presence and showmanship. But their catalog was diverse enough that they DID have their simpler, catchier songs to do that with.
Although honestly, there were some live performances by Queen, where I'm watching and eagerly anticipating that high note from Freddie, and instead, he opted not to hit it, and instead settled for an easier note, and personally, I was a little disappointed when things like that happened.

As for Rush, yes, they do entertain the crowd quite a bit, but it's not like DT just stand there doing nothing. I'd say DT shows pretty much the same amount of showmanship as Rush. Not necessarily in the same ways, but in terms of engaging the audience and each other, I'd say they're about equal. I love those moments when JP, JM and JR all come to the front of the stage and do their thing. It's always a highlight of the show.
And when JP does his long, extended guitar solos, such as the one in BAI, he always takes center stage and gets all epic and godly with his performances.
Give them some credit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:02:39 AM
And it holds up on its own when I'm cranking their CDs without the benefit of all of that.
I'm not disagreeing. I could say the same thing about Alice Cooper. But that's the thing, if they just stood there like a bunch of trees, just playing that simple and catchy music, without interacting with the audience and without their immense stage presence, then you might as well just sit there and listen to the CD.

But in DT's case, even if JP just stands there playing the music, without engaging the audience at all, his musical dexterity and skill is still entertaining to watch.

I don't agree with that one bit. That's what you value in the live experience, but that's not an accurate generalization at all, especially for the average audience. A lot of people don't find "musical dexterity" to be a motivator for watching music live. It simply comes down to hearing the songs they know and like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 10:34:46 AM
It simply comes down to hearing the songs they know and like.

Well, for the audiences that do feel that way, there should be no reason to complain about Dream Theater's live shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on January 08, 2014, 10:39:24 AM
How's the weather up there where you guys' noses are?   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:41:31 AM
Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on January 08, 2014, 10:39:24 AM
How's the weather up there where you guys' noses are?   :biggrin:
It's raining RAAAAAWK.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 08, 2014, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on January 08, 2014, 10:39:24 AM
How's the weather up there where you guys' noses are?   :biggrin:

I'm Italian, my nose is big enough to always be way up somewhere.   ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 08, 2014, 10:53:40 AM
I could watch Rudess all day. He's imo the most entertaining DT member to watch live, even though I am a drummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 08, 2014, 10:53:40 AM
I could watch Rudess all day. He's imo the most entertaining DT member to watch live, even though I am a drummer.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Though I could watch any of them, really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 11:00:53 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
As for Rush, yes, they do entertain the crowd quite a bit, but it's not like DT just stand there doing nothing. I'd say DT shows pretty much the same amount of showmanship as Rush. Not necessarily in the same ways, but in terms of engaging the audience and each other, I'd say they're about equal.

I'm not even that big Rush fan, in fact far from it, but sorry, no. Rush smokes DT in terms of drawing you in. Rush makes you feel they invited you to their living room, and you're sitting with them sipping beer and shooting the shit.
As somebody else mentioned, there is *very* little band member interaction in DT. I remember when years ago the forum was all gaga because of the "JM beach ball incident". (somehow a beach ball ended up on stage, JM kicked it back down) I always thought that was somewhat of a sign that the audience was starving for *any* kind of stuff happening on stage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on January 08, 2014, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 08, 2014, 10:53:40 AM
I could watch Rudess all day. He's imo the most entertaining DT member to watch live, even though I am a drummer.

Haha thats really interesting actually, the drummer in my band came with me to the last DT show I saw (ADTOE tour) and said the same thing.  JR was his favorite part of the show and his favorite member after that concert, even though MM totally blew him away. I have no clue what his reasoning was but that was his impression after his first DT show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 11:14:58 AM
Well, I don't know how long "years ago" was, but like I said, I think DT's stage presence has improved tremendously in the recent years. And now that I think about it, maybe it has something to do with lack of MP, and no constantly changing set lists. I mean, it's difficult enough to play their music as it is, but if they have to constantly play and re-learn their back catalog, they probably needed to focus on the music a lot more.
Maybe that's why they were so energetic and present during the ADTOE tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 11:44:22 AM
Re: Seeing DT Live, What's Really Important?

I've come to associate seeing Dream Theater live with discomfort. That's not really their fault, but more just an unfortunate consequence of where they are popularity-wise. At least in the States, they're way too big for the more intimate theaters  they once played, but they're still way too small for some of the biggers, nicer venues that have good sound and comfy seats. It seems they have tried to make up for this by enhancing their stage show to be more like a "big name band" stage show, but honestly, when I'm seeing DT, I really don't care about all that. I just want to see the guys play. So for me, all that the new stage show does is increase the price of the ticket.

Almost everytime I've seen DT perform, it's been in these ballroom and conventional hall type venues, where you've got 3-5k people standing or sitting (if they're lucky) in metal folding chairs all night. Personally, I'd love a more intimate show where I can just sit and focus on the band. Recently, I've noticed more than a few prog bands (Steven Wilson, Transatlantic, etc), have been playing seated theaters that only seat about 1-2k, but for seeing intricate music performed without much stageshow going on, those theaters are absolutely perfect. For Steven Wilson in particular, I went back to the very last row, and still felt like it wasn't too far away as I could still see pretty much all the detail of what all the players were doing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 11:53:17 AM
In Toronto, they usually perform at Massey Hall, which sits 3500 people (with balcony). Overall, I'd say it's perfect for Dream Theater. The seats are comfortable and the layout is classy, so it suits them very well. But still, in terms of size, I feel like it's a bit small for a band like Dream Theater. Maybe it just has a cozy and intimate feel to it. But 1000 - 2000 people would be WAY too small for a band like DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 12:01:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 11:53:17 AM
In Toronto, they usually perform at Massey Hall, which sits 3500 people (with balcony). Overall, I'd say it's perfect for Dream Theater. The seats are comfortable and the layout is classy, so it suits them very well. But still, in terms of size, I feel like it's a bit small for a band like Dream Theater. Maybe it just has a cozy and intimate feel to it. But 1000 - 2000 people would be WAY too small for a band like DT.

Yeah, that sounds pretty ideal, though I don't think 1-2k is always too small. Dream Theater played the Asbury Park conventional hall awhile back, which was the epitome of discomfort, and while it holds closder to 3 or 4k, it seemed to be about 1/3rd capacity. Mostly, the cheap seats in the wings were bought up, and there was a noticeable gap in the middle of more expensive, unoccupied seats (until people started squatting in them).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 12:01:09 PM
Yeah, that sounds pretty ideal, though I don't think 1-2k is always too small. Dream Theater played the Asbury Park conventional hall awhile back, which was the epitome of discomfort, and while it holds closder to 3 or 4k, it seemed to be about 1/3rd capacity. Mostly, the cheap seats in the wings were bought up, and there was a noticeable gap in the middle of more expensive, unoccupied seats (until people started squatting in them).

That just makes no sense to me at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 12:14:51 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 12:03:04 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 12:01:09 PM
Yeah, that sounds pretty ideal, though I don't think 1-2k is always too small. Dream Theater played the Asbury Park conventional hall awhile back, which was the epitome of discomfort, and while it holds closder to 3 or 4k, it seemed to be about 1/3rd capacity. Mostly, the cheap seats in the wings were bought up, and there was a noticeable gap in the middle of more expensive, unoccupied seats (until people started squatting in them).

That just makes no sense to me at all.

Like this:
(prices are made-up)

                 STAGE
             -------------
            |     $100      |
              -------------
      /       -------------        \
   /  $25|        $50     | $25    \
/             -------------               \


The $25 and $50 seats were sold, mostly, but toward the back of the $100 seats, there was a big black hole, until during the show the people from $50 jumped up to $100 and the people in the $25 wings moved over toward the center.

Actually, I think Rudess brought it up in an interview, too. Apparently, it happened a lot on the BC&SL tour. I have to dig around for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 12:31:17 PM
Well, I understand what you meant, it just makes no sense to me that DT fans wouldn't spring the extra money to be closer to the front and center. Weird.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 01:24:32 PM
Eh.  I know PC made those prices up, but using his sample layout as an example, if I wanted to go to that concert, I'd probably go for the $25 seats.  Being front and center is cool and all, but it simply isn't worth an extra $75 to me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 08, 2014, 01:27:14 PM
^ I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 01:35:34 PM
But again, those prices are made up. They would probably be closer to $60, and $40 extra for front and center would be totally worth it to me. Heck, I'm paying $300 for VIP pass and a front row seat, and I think it's totally worth every penny.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 01:43:55 PM
Let me put it this way: I'll almost always go for the cheap seats. 

To me, the most important aspect of a concert (aside from the music itself, of course) is the live atmosphere.  The energy of the crowd, the pulse-pounding tension of being there, the experience of being a part of the music I love.  And the simple fact is, I can generally get that stuff from anywhere in the venue. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 01:35:34 PM
But again, those prices are made up. They would probably be closer to $60, and $40 extra for front and center would be totally worth it to me.

At least in my area, it looks like the range is more like $50-60 for the absolute cheapest standing room tickets, and up to $120 for "front and center" seats. This year, it's not really a quesiton of whether I'll pick the cheap seats or not, but more of whether I'll actually go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 01:43:55 PM
Let me put it this way: I'll almost always go for the cheap seats. 

To me, the most important aspect of a concert (aside from the music itself, of course) is the live atmosphere.  The energy of the crowd, the pulse-pounding tension of being there, the experience of being a part of the music I love.  And the simple fact is, I can generally get that stuff from anywhere in the venue.

To me, the most important thing is being closer to the band. And pretty much every concert I go to here, at least ones with a pit, tend to have people practically fighting to be front and center. And usually, I fight for my spot with everything I have.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 02:59:12 PM
I definitely enjoy myself more when I just hang back, anyway. Especially if I'm seeing a long show, wwhere I know I'm gonna be fretting about leaving "my spot" if I want to use the bathroom or grab a beer. It IS a 3hr show, TGP - are you gonna show up as early as possible to get front and center place, and then stay there for the next 4 hours?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 03:02:38 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 08, 2014, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 01:35:34 PM
But again, those prices are made up. They would probably be closer to $60, and $40 extra for front and center would be totally worth it to me.

At least in my area, it looks like the range is more like $50-60 for the absolute cheapest standing room tickets, and up to $120 for "front and center" seats. This year, it's not really a quesiton of whether I'll pick the cheap seats or not, but more of whether I'll actually go.

Ever since they started with the VIP seating, which frankly had the main effect of pushing the reasonably priced seats all the way back, I've essentially always gone for the cheapest option.
It used to be that seeing your favorite band up close meant clicking your thumbs raw at some ungodly hour (which however showed you're a fan). That has been plain replaced by who has the pockets to pay the $300 or more to get to the front. IIRC the last time I saw them they nowhere near sold out the expensive seats. So, us "hoi polloi" were standing far in the back, kept at a far distance artificially, with the big block of emptiness between us and the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 01:43:55 PM
Let me put it this way: I'll almost always go for the cheap seats. 

To me, the most important aspect of a concert (aside from the music itself, of course) is the live atmosphere.  The energy of the crowd, the pulse-pounding tension of being there, the experience of being a part of the music I love.  And the simple fact is, I can generally get that stuff from anywhere in the venue.

To me, the most important thing is being closer to the band. And pretty much every concert I go to here, at least ones with a pit, tend to have people practically fighting to be front and center. And usually, I fight for my spot with everything I have.

Yeah, see, I don't share these sentiments at all.  Being closer to the band is cool and all, but if I have to pay extra for the privilege or literally struggle for the opportunity, that kinda takes away from the whole experience for me.  I'd rather stand at the very back of the venue and enjoy myself than stand in the front and fret about getting trampled or shoved away.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 03:09:19 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 03:03:18 PM
Yeah, see, I don't share these sentiments at all.  Being closer to the band is cool and all, but if I have to pay extra for the privilege or literally struggle for the opportunity, that kinda takes away from the whole experience for me.  I'd rather stand at the very back of the venue and enjoy myself than stand in the front and fret about getting trampled or shoved away.

I might share the sentiment if it's a band I've already seen up close several times. I've seen Fear Factory 3 times, and I was in the front every time, so next time I go see them, I'll probably take the balcony if it's available, and see them from above.

But DT, being my #1 favorite band, I have to see them as close as possible, especially if the place is seated and there's no shoving.

The thing is, for me it's the other way around. If the seats further back were REALLY cheap, like $25, then yeah, I'd understand. But if they're only about $40 less, then that $40 discount isn't worth  me giving up a seat that's close to the front.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 08, 2014, 03:10:58 PM
Well, obviously you and I value different aspects of the concert experience.  Which is fine.  I was only offering a different perspective.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 08, 2014, 03:17:02 PM
I understand, but still what I don't understand is how the center section of a venue could have so many gaps. Even if some people prefer cheaper, further seating, I'd think there's bound to be countless people who'd prefer the front center section for the extra price.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: davidolson22 on January 08, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 03:02:38 PM


Ever since they started with the VIP seating, which frankly had the main effect of pushing the reasonably priced seats all the way back, I've essentially always gone for the cheapest option.
It used to be that seeing your favorite band up close meant clicking your thumbs raw at some ungodly hour (which however showed you're a fan). That has been plain replaced by who has the pockets to pay the $300 or more to get to the front. IIRC the last time I saw them they nowhere near sold out the expensive seats. So, us "hoi polloi" were standing far in the back, kept at a far distance artificially, with the big block of emptiness between us and the band.

That's capitalism. I don't see how it's that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: davidolson22 on January 08, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 03:02:38 PM


Ever since they started with the VIP seating, which frankly had the main effect of pushing the reasonably priced seats all the way back, I've essentially always gone for the cheapest option.
It used to be that seeing your favorite band up close meant clicking your thumbs raw at some ungodly hour (which however showed you're a fan). That has been plain replaced by who has the pockets to pay the $300 or more to get to the front. IIRC the last time I saw them they nowhere near sold out the expensive seats. So, us "hoi polloi" were standing far in the back, kept at a far distance artificially, with the big block of emptiness between us and the band.

That's capitalism. I don't see how it's that big of a deal.

It just didn't used to be that way, partially because artists were uncomfortable or unwilling to create this tiered system of fans, where the poor ones have to stay far away.
Believe it or not, some artists have ideals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 08, 2014, 08:12:12 PM
This tour will be my first time to finally see DT live so I was contemplating whether to go for the pricey seats then I noticed that with the VIP seats I'd be in Row 2, but a regular $87 ticket I could still get Row 4 because the public sale does not start until later this week.  Saved myself some dough and took row 4 instead.  :biggrin:  And the venue is an old theater with nice acoustics and a seating capacity of 1,700, so I'm expecting good things. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 08, 2014, 08:19:02 PM
I will never pay $300  for a ticket no matter what band it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 08, 2014, 08:23:37 PM
Most I've ever paid for a ticket is Van Halen at $100 on the last tour.  I still joke about the first time I really got sticker shock from a ticket price -- it was for the Rolling Stones in 1989 and the floor tickets were the shocking price of $35.  :lol  Mind you, this was at a time when you could see major acts for $15.  First KISS show I ever attended back in the 70s was $8. 

I'd kill to see major acts for $35 now....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 08, 2014, 08:37:48 PM
I payed over $100 for VH on the Sammy reunion (04?) and would never pay that for them again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 08:40:44 PM
I paid $100 for Rush a few years back, by accident. I told my friends "sure yeah, buy a ticket for me too" when they asked me. I assumed it would be around $50. Seriously, wtf, $100.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 08:50:15 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 08, 2014, 08:23:37 PM
Most I've ever paid for a ticket is Van Halen at $100 on the last tour.  I still joke about the first time I really got sticker shock from a ticket price -- it was for the Rolling Stones in 1989 and the floor tickets were the shocking price of $35.  :lol  Mind you, this was at a time when you could see major acts for $15.  First KISS show I ever attended back in the 70s was $8. 

I'd kill to see major acts for $35 now....

Man, I'd kill to see a band for $100 a ticket here. :lol
The Rolling Stones are playing here this year in an arena that fits about 15,000 people, with 3 elevations. The back couple of rows of the 3rd elevation were $200 for the cheapest tickets. The rest of the 3rd and 2nd elevations were $375. The 1st elevation and the floor would set you back $580 (yes, for $580, you could end up in elevated seating).
This show entirely sold out in a couple of hours.

There wasn't really a point to that story, other than complaining that ticket prices are even more ludicrous here. :lol

When DT played here on the SC and BCASL tours, their tickets were about $120 for anywhere in the venue, which wasn't bad at all. Now I'd probably expect that to be more like $150 to be in line with recent increases in ticket prices here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 08, 2014, 08:54:31 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 08:50:15 PM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 08, 2014, 08:23:37 PM
Most I've ever paid for a ticket is Van Halen at $100 on the last tour.  I still joke about the first time I really got sticker shock from a ticket price -- it was for the Rolling Stones in 1989 and the floor tickets were the shocking price of $35.  :lol  Mind you, this was at a time when you could see major acts for $15.  First KISS show I ever attended back in the 70s was $8. 

I'd kill to see major acts for $35 now....

Man, I'd kill to see a band for $100 a ticket here. :lol
The Rolling Stones are playing here this year in an arena that fits about 15,000 people, with 3 elevations. The back couple of rows of the 3rd elevation were $200 for the cheapest tickets. The rest of the 3rd and 2nd elevations were $375. The 1st elevation and the floor would set you back $580 (yes, for $580, you could end up in elevated seating).
This show entirely sold out in a couple of hours.

There wasn't really a point to that story, other than complaining that ticket prices are even more ludicrous here. :lol

When DT played here on the SC and BCASL tours, their tickets were about $120 for anywhere in the venue, which wasn't bad at all. Now I'd probably expect that to be more like $150 to be in line with recent increases in ticket prices here.

Ditto that...................I don't know what sort of venues DT has played in Sydney in the past but in Melbourne we'll likely be paying $150 for some shitty under-used/maintained mid size venue like Festival Hall.   As mentioned elsewhere they're too big for the good small venues and too small for the good large venues.

Myer Music Bowl would be good but not sure how that'd go down semi-outdoors , depending on what they want to do with the show.  Or a couple of shows at the Palais Theater which has awesome sound. 

Having said that - in the end I'll be happy just to have them tour Australia.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:05:52 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on January 08, 2014, 08:54:31 PM
As mentioned elsewhere they're too big for the good small venues and too small for the good large venues.

That's about right. The venue they play here is actually not bad luckily, but I've never seen any other band there. It's a bit of an odd inbetween venue, that holds about 5-6000 people. Smaller bands play the theatre that holds about 1,500, and bigger bands play either the entertainment center that holds about 10,000, the arena that holds about 15,000, or a few rare bands play the awful stadium that holds about 50,000.

DT are at a bit of an awkward level where they're far too big to play to 1,500 people here, but wouldn't be near big enough to play at the entertainment center (that's where Iron Maiden and Journey/Deep Purple played), or the stadium.

Maybe that's part of why it wasn't viable for them to come out here last tour. Smaller bands have had no trouble playing here multiple times in consecutive years, and larger bands have plenty of options. DT are too big to scale down, and too small to scale up. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on January 08, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 08:50:15 PM
Man, I'd kill to see a band for $100 a ticket here. :lol
The Rolling Stones are playing here this year in an arena that fits about 15,000 people, with 3 elevations. The back couple of rows of the 3rd elevation were $200 for the cheapest tickets. The rest of the 3rd and 2nd elevations were $375. The 1st elevation and the floor would set you back $580 (yes, for $580, you could end up in elevated seating).
This show entirely sold out in a couple of hours.

When DT played here on the SC and BCASL tours, their tickets were about $120 for anywhere in the venue, which wasn't bad at all. Now I'd probably expect that to be more like $150 to be in line with recent increases in ticket prices here.
Are these AUD or USD? Either way there's a significant price gap but I'm just curious.

Also, I'm wondering if this was a move by the band itself or its management team?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 08, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
Blob and I are talking $AUD but it was only months ago that the $AUD was above parity with the $US.    So we're talking rough equivalents anyway , depending on the exchange rate at the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 08, 2014, 09:13:42 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on January 08, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
Blob and I are talking $AUD but it was only months ago that the $AUD was above parity with the $US.    So we're talking rough equivalents anyway , depending on the exchange rate at the time.

Yep, they've been close enough to level for a couple of years now.
The biggest reason for the difference in prices is just that we're a difficult country to tour. Our country is remote, so it costs a lot to ship everything over, and then the only places you can play are in the one major city of each state, so there are only a handful of places spread out over the entire continent that bands can play if they want to make a profit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on January 08, 2014, 09:22:45 PM
Our biggest cities aren't that big comparatively, either. Makes it harder for a band to fill out a big venue like they would in a North American or European city, and therefore less money per show (if they charged the same).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 09, 2014, 06:20:25 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: davidolson22 on January 08, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 08, 2014, 03:02:38 PM


Ever since they started with the VIP seating, which frankly had the main effect of pushing the reasonably priced seats all the way back, I've essentially always gone for the cheapest option.
It used to be that seeing your favorite band up close meant clicking your thumbs raw at some ungodly hour (which however showed you're a fan). That has been plain replaced by who has the pockets to pay the $300 or more to get to the front. IIRC the last time I saw them they nowhere near sold out the expensive seats. So, us "hoi polloi" were standing far in the back, kept at a far distance artificially, with the big block of emptiness between us and the band.

That's capitalism. I don't see how it's that big of a deal.

It just didn't used to be that way, partially because artists were uncomfortable or unwilling to create this tiered system of fans, where the poor ones have to stay far away.
Believe it or not, some artists have ideals.
Not only that, but it's bad business. You can play a "sold out" show in a seated theater, or you can play a conventional hall that fits 3k, where everyone's standing or sitting in the back and the expensive seats aren't being filled. I'd imagine the band make more money booking the smaller venue, to be honest, even if they miss some potential to make a little more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 10, 2014, 04:18:50 AM
If I may just chime in with a controversial opinion.

JM is the least imaginative in DTs line up. For the amount of time he dedicates to practicing I feel he doesn't shine enough, not even to the point that it's subtle. It just isn't there. I hear him better on the new CD and there are moments but I just feel underwhelmed by his playing these days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 10, 2014, 04:38:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 10, 2014, 04:18:50 AM
If I may just chime in with a controversial opinion.

JM is the least imaginative in DTs line up. For the amount of time he dedicates to practicing I feel he doesn't shine enough, not even to the point that it's subtle. It just isn't there. I hear him better on the new CD and there are moments but I just feel underwhelmed by his playing these days.

Agreed. I think that after Octavarium his contributions are becoming less and less evident and interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 10, 2014, 04:50:11 AM
I don't think it's right for any of us to declare which member has the least imagination. We can only really judge that on the merit of the contributions they actually bring forward. In the case of JLB and JM, those guys are mostly overshadowed by JP and JR who write pretty much all of the music and melodies. Their respective roles in the band are pretty well established at this point.

However, if we're basing it entirely on whose contributions are the least interesting, I would disagree and say that that "award" goes to JLB. Love his singing, but I was never crazy about his lyrics. Also, bear in mind that a lot of the time he's not even the one coming up with the melodies he sings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 10, 2014, 05:28:34 AM
I like JLB - I think he has a solid attitude and for all the cringe worthy moments I feel with his singing, there are just as many "fuck yea!" moments.

I don't really want this turning in to a JLB vs JM debate.

I'd certainly wager though that JM is much more dedicated to his chosen instrument than JLB is to his. Pretty much every shot of him in every backstage documentary see's him with bass in hand, beavering away around the fretboard.

I do like his playing don't get me wrong, but for someone that dedicated with that sort of technical affluence, I'd just expect a bit more really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CrimsonE on January 10, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
I've never been one to think I have to sit up front, and in fact, the concert experience is usually better when I can take in the entire show, rather than be in front of a single musician.  I've been to a couple of hundred shows since the late 80's, and I've been up front for less than a couple of dozen of them, and it's usually not that much better than being in the back. 

For me the ideal seat for an arena show is in the back, lower level center.  That way I can take in the entire experience, while not having to crane my neck too much to see the band. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 10, 2014, 09:39:14 AM
I always feel like (probably due to being spoiled by DVDs with closeups and such) even being as far back as, say, the 5th row or so, the whole stage just shrinks like crazy. I feel like the band is miles away.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shade on January 11, 2014, 07:28:27 AM
Controversial opinion:

Jumping on the JM bashing wagon, if DT hypothetically had to find a new bassist and used the same kind of process as they did with picking MM, and JM was auditioning, they would not pick JM. Given that with the drummers it came down to so much more than technical ability, I simply don't think JM would fit the image if who the band wants in their lineup.

I'm not for a second doubting his technical ability, but I think there are many other bassists out there who can match him and provide a more interesting character for the band.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 11, 2014, 08:44:48 AM
Fair enough, but you've got to keep in mind how much JM and JP have in common to begin with. Even if they were meeting for the first time now, they'd still find that being the same age, sharing most of the same core influences and growing up in the same part of the world (which was a factor in MM's audition) would do a lot for their musical chemistry and personal relationship.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 11, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
Yeah, but you have to keep in mind just how friendly and extroverted MM is. If JP and JM met for the first time now, imagine JM being in an environment of musicians he's never really worked with. I mean, I'm not saying he would or wouldn't get it, but it would be a very different dynamic from when MM auditioned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on January 12, 2014, 03:41:40 PM
Interesting JM discussion on the recent posts.  I am a big JM fan, but I wonder if the JM we were introduced to was on the albums prior to ADTOE when it felt (to me at least) that JM just did what JP did.  In fairness, keeping up with JP is probably no small feat, but it doesn't make him stand out as with the earlier albums, and I doubt that alone gets him the recognition his skills deserve. 

Does a JM without DT ever get the kind of Top-7 rating that puts him into an audition group?   Part of why I wonder that, is I've heard him with other bands like Platypus/Jelly Jam, where you might feel he'll really let loose, but ends up just being support.  Maybe that's what he prefers. 

It's nice to see him contribute more, and it's no doubt to me that he is an elite bassist, I just wish I felt like he wasn't overshadowed so much. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: davidolson22 on January 12, 2014, 07:17:35 PM
Quote from: MonagFam on January 12, 2014, 03:41:40 PM

Does a JM without DT ever get the kind of Top-7 rating that puts him into an audition group?   Part of why I wonder that, is I've heard him with other bands like Platypus/Jelly Jam, where you might feel he'll really let loose, but ends up just being support.  Maybe that's what he prefers. 


Everytime I listen to those albums, a piece of me dies. I keep expecting to be like, "Listen to that bass! Everyone come here! It's awesome!" Instead I'm like, "don't bother coming over here, it's just the usual crap."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 12, 2014, 07:21:31 PM
Silly people wanting JM to be something he is not.  JM plays what he want to play on the songs.  Not what you want. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 12, 2014, 07:23:36 PM
If JM's happy with what he plays, I'm good with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 12, 2014, 10:13:18 PM
I always thought JM's bass tone was pretty horrible.  Sounds like a bunch of trouts flapping about on wet concrete.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on January 13, 2014, 12:15:01 AM
bass tone was better before he switched to Music Man
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on January 13, 2014, 04:43:54 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 12, 2014, 07:21:31 PM
Silly people wanting JM to be something he is not.  JM plays what he want to play on the songs.  Not what you want. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 13, 2014, 03:09:35 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.

I'm not so sure that's all that controversial around here. :justjen

But now that you mention, I think my (maybe not so) controversial opinion would be that I like Train of Thought more than Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 13, 2014, 03:42:33 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 13, 2014, 03:09:35 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.

I'm not so sure that's all that controversial around here. :justjen

But now that you mention, I think my (maybe not so) controversial opinion would be that I like Train of Thought more than Awake.

Train of Thought is my no. 1 album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 13, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.


You have no idea of the wrath you have just bestowed upon yourself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 13, 2014, 04:40:47 PM
Hypothetically, I imagine if I had been a DT fan in the I&W era, I would have had huge expectations for Awake and would have ended up being disappointed. In hindsight, it's a great album, but it still ranks in my bottom half. I reckon FII would have been a bit of a letdown as well (although it's a huge grower), so no wonder SFAM was do or die for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 13, 2014, 05:43:34 PM
If I had to choose between Awake and I&W there would be no contest. Awake is miles ahead for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 13, 2014, 05:48:23 PM
Awake is my favorite DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 13, 2014, 07:16:26 PM
I think Six Degrees is the only DT album that has not had a single song that I don't particularly care for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 13, 2014, 07:34:54 PM
I've never thought JM was an amazing bassist. He's obviously extremely skilled at playing the bass, but I'm shocked someone with his skill, in the most self-indulgent progressive metal band in the world, hasn't shown off his skill more often. His bass lines have always just been boring to me. It's okay to not show off in the music, but in a band like DT, you SHOULD show off. Don't just suit the song, wow us once in a while. And he's so buried in the mix. And once you actually hear the bass, he's not doing anything exceptional. I just wish he did MORE. I can't fathom why some people consider him to be the greatest bassist of all time. Wouldn't make my top 20.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 13, 2014, 07:35:43 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 13, 2014, 04:40:47 PM
Hypothetically, I imagine if I had been a DT fan in the I&W era, I would have had huge expectations for Awake and would have ended up being disappointed. In hindsight, it's a great album, but it still ranks in my bottom half. I reckon FII would have been a bit of a letdown as well (although it's a huge grower), so no wonder SFAM was do or die for them.

That is exactly how I felt.  When Awake came out I fell in love fast but it soon lost it's luster.  I liked FII and it stayed with me a lot longer but I was looking for something more like I&W
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 13, 2014, 08:15:25 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.


That's not controversial around here.





But it should be, because it's thoroughly wrong. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 13, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Since we're sorting out our opinions on SDOIT, I'll say this: I rarely listen to SDOIT the album at all. The Great Debate and Disappear don't really do much for me, and Misunderstood is good until the ending which I do not care for at all and makes me less inclined to listen to the song. The big one is excellent but one that I don't listen to incredibly often due to its length. That leaves Blind Faith and The Glass Prison as the only songs from SDOIT aside from the title song that I like all the way through and the only two that I listen to on anything resembling a regular basis. Probably in my bottom third of DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 13, 2014, 09:57:09 PM
Quote from: 425 on January 13, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Since we're sorting out our opinions on SDOIT, I'll say this: I rarely listen to SDOIT the album at all. The Great Debate and Disappear don't really do much for me, and Misunderstood is good until the ending which I do not care for at all and makes me less inclined to listen to the song. The big one is excellent but one that I don't listen to incredibly often due to its length. That leaves Blind Faith and The Glass Prison as the only songs from SDOIT aside from the title song that I like all the way through and the only two that I listen to on anything resembling a regular basis. Probably in my bottom third of DT albums.

I've already expressed my indifference toward SDOIT Disc 1 ........so everyone already knows my opinions suck on this matter  ;D


I don't know if it's just small samples size/coincidence but amongst the DT fans I know personally (half a dozen) -  three got into them about the same time as me (1992 - Images and Words) and three were later in the TOT  to SC era.   

The first group of three all had the same thoughts on FII and SDOIT -  initially struggled with FII but grew to love it.  Never liked SDOIT Disc One,

The second (younger) group all think SDOIT is the best thing since sliced bread.

Coincidence perhaps but interesting all the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 13, 2014, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 13, 2014, 05:48:23 PM
Awake is my favorite DT album.
Total truth. Awake is just absolutely perfect from beginning to end, it's hard for any album to do that. Even I&W and SFAM I don't enjoy consistently front to back (though I do most of the way through...)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 13, 2014, 10:46:01 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on January 13, 2014, 09:57:09 PM
Quote from: 425 on January 13, 2014, 09:47:35 PM
Since we're sorting out our opinions on SDOIT, I'll say this: I rarely listen to SDOIT the album at all. The Great Debate and Disappear don't really do much for me, and Misunderstood is good until the ending which I do not care for at all and makes me less inclined to listen to the song. The big one is excellent but one that I don't listen to incredibly often due to its length. That leaves Blind Faith and The Glass Prison as the only songs from SDOIT aside from the title song that I like all the way through and the only two that I listen to on anything resembling a regular basis. Probably in my bottom third of DT albums.

I've already expressed my indifference toward SDOIT Disc 1 ........so everyone already knows my opinions suck on this matter  ;D


I don't know if it's just small samples size/coincidence but amongst the DT fans I know personally (half a dozen) -  three got into them about the same time as me (1992 - Images and Words) and three were later in the TOT  to SC era.   

The first group of three all had the same thoughts on FII and SDOIT -  initially struggled with FII but grew to love it.  Never liked SDOIT Disc One,

The second (younger) group all think SDOIT is the best thing since sliced bread.

Coincidence perhaps but interesting all the same.

Well, for what it's worth, I got into DT around 2010-ish, and Black Clouds And Silver Linings was the first album I bought. And as I said before,
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 13, 2014, 05:48:23 PM
Awake is my favorite DT album.
Though, I'm hardly a representative sample of the fanbase.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 13, 2014, 10:55:10 PM
You obviously have great taste  ;D    For me Awake is second only to I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 14, 2014, 04:15:18 AM
I got into DT in December 2012. My favorite album is Images and Words followed by Scenes from a Memory, and SDOIT falls neatly into my bottom 5 albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on January 14, 2014, 09:40:32 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 13, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.


You have no idea of the wrath you have just bestowed upon yourself.

You wanna see wrath? After a recent re-listen to all their albums, I can now say that ToT > SDOIT. Disc 1 bores me to tears, and it's getting harder and harder for me to get past War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped Them All when I play the title track. The only thing keeping this from being a wider gulf is Honor Thy Father is legit the only DT song I flat out hate.

Bring it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 14, 2014, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: Jaq on January 14, 2014, 09:40:32 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 13, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.


You have no idea of the wrath you have just bestowed upon yourself.

You wanna see wrath? After a recent re-listen to all their albums, I can now say that ToT > SDOIT. Disc 1 bores me to tears, and it's getting harder and harder for me to get past War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped Them All when I play the title track. The only thing keeping this from being a wider gulf is Honor Thy Father is legit the only DT song I flat out hate.

Bring it.

Actually I was referring to Blob bringing the wrath, but he didn't quite take the bait like I'd hoped. Very anti-climactic...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 14, 2014, 02:13:58 PM
Quote from: Jaq on January 14, 2014, 09:40:32 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 13, 2014, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: abrandnewname on January 13, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
My controversial opinion of DT is that Awake is better than SDOIT.


You have no idea of the wrath you have just bestowed upon yourself.

You wanna see wrath? After a recent re-listen to all their albums, I can now say that ToT > SDOIT. Disc 1 bores me to tears, and it's getting harder and harder for me to get past War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped Them All when I play the title track. The only thing keeping this from being a wider gulf is Honor Thy Father is legit the only DT song I flat out hate.

Bring it.

I prefer SDOIT because of the diverse songwriting (against the more straightforward approach in TOT) and also, as a plus, it doesn't suffer too much in the out of control wankery department (i get that many fans like it but sometimes, it's too excessive)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on January 15, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
The Enemy Inside is the best straightforward metal song DT has ever made.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Had a hard time trying to discover what each acronym meant.
Are you guys lazy? Why not write the whole album or song name?

The only good thing in "The Best of Times" is the guitar solo.
A Change of Seasons (the song, not the album) is a masterpiece.
Dream Theater music is better appreciated in sunny but cold weathers
The band is decreasing in creativity and innovation and becoming "heavier" each album.
Falling into Infinity is one of their greatest albums.
The Enemy Inside doesn't even sound like Dream Theater.
Trial of Tears is one of their best songs, if not THE best.
Another Day is the best pop-ish song.


I think that's all...
Remember, if your opinion doesn't match mine, it means you're goofy and you're wrong  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 10:50:47 AM
Yes, we are lazy.

The Best of Times is great.
Yes.
Never made the connection, myself.
Not really. Train Of Thought is still their heaviest. Innovation and creativity are arguable.
I disagree.
...But it is Dream Theater.
I disagree.
I agree.

Good to have another ninja here. :ninja:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 15, 2014, 11:37:00 AM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Had a hard time trying to discover what each acronym meant.
Are you guys lazy? Why not write the whole album or song name?

The only good thing in "The Best of Times" is the guitar solo.
A Change of Seasons (the song, not the album) is a masterpiece.
Dream Theater music is better appreciated in sunny but cold weathers
The band is decreasing in creativity and innovation and becoming "heavier" each album.
Falling into Infinity is one of their greatest albums.
The Enemy Inside doesn't even sound like Dream Theater.
Trial of Tears is one of their best songs, if not THE best.
Another Day is the best pop-ish song.


I think that's all...
Remember, if your opinion doesn't match mine, it means you're goofy and you're wrong  :D

TBOT is great all the way through.
ACOS is a masterpiece until Another World, which is it's highest point. After that the song goes meh.
No comment.
I don't see how ADToE is heavy.
Bottom 3 album.
The Enemy Inside is one of the best straight-out metal songs they've done.
Trial of Tears is top 20 material.
Another Day is ridiculously overrated.

 :tup


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 11:51:28 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 15, 2014, 11:37:00 AM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Had a hard time trying to discover what each acronym meant.
Are you guys lazy? Why not write the whole album or song name?

The only good thing in "The Best of Times" is the guitar solo.
A Change of Seasons (the song, not the album) is a masterpiece.
Dream Theater music is better appreciated in sunny but cold weathers
The band is decreasing in creativity and innovation and becoming "heavier" each album.
Falling into Infinity is one of their greatest albums.
The Enemy Inside doesn't even sound like Dream Theater.
Trial of Tears is one of their best songs, if not THE best.
Another Day is the best pop-ish song.


I think that's all...
Remember, if your opinion doesn't match mine, it means you're goofy and you're wrong  :D

TBOT is great all the way through.
ACOS is a masterpiece until Another World, which is it's highest point. After that the song goes meh.
No comment.
I don't see how ADToE is heavy.
Bottom 3 album.
The Enemy Inside is one of the best straight-out metal songs they've done.
Trial of Tears is top 20 material.
Another Day is ridiculously overrated.

 :tup

Really? Apart from me and him, I've never really seen much love for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
Yeah, a song has to be rated before it can be overrated. Of all of IAW, it gets the most hate, easily. Personally I'd say its underrated if anything, as the shorter, accessible songs often are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 15, 2014, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
Yeah, a song has to be rated before it can be overrated. Of all of IAW, it gets the most hate, easily. Personally I'd say its underrated if anything, as the shorter, accessible songs often are.

Definitely underrated. I think it's one of their best poppier-sounding songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 15, 2014, 11:59:04 AM
The '80s romantic sax kills it. I'd rather listen to a 10 hour epic sax guy loop.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 15, 2014, 12:08:58 PM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
The band is decreasing in creativity and innovation and becoming "heavier" each album.
The Enemy Inside doesn't even sound like Dream Theater.

... if DT released a song that didn't sound like themselves at all, wouldn't that mean they're being more creative, not less?

In any case only a few of your opinions are actually controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 15, 2014, 11:59:04 AM
The '80s romantic sax kills it. I'd rather listen to a 10 hour epic sax guy loop.

The saxophone is one of my favorite parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shade on January 15, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 15, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
The Enemy Inside is the best straightforward metal song DT has ever made.

I'd say BITS tops it, just got more to it IMO. Although I'd say they're both great songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 15, 2014, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: Shade on January 15, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 15, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
The Enemy Inside is the best straightforward metal song DT has ever made.

I'd say BITS tops it, just got more to it IMO. Although I'd say they're both great songs.

How is BITS a straightforward metal song?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 01:09:37 PM
Top 5 favorite DT songs that most fans dislike:

5. The Answer Lies Within
4. Just Let Me Breathe
3. A Nightmare to Remember
2. Overture (SDOIT)
1. Lost Not Forgotten

Top 5 least favorite DT songs that most fans like:
(Note: I don't dislike any of these, but I rank them much lower than other people)

5. Trial of Tears
4. Finally Free
3. Home
2. Voices
1. The Great Debate
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 15, 2014, 01:41:06 PM
Quote from: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 01:09:37 PM
Top 5 favorite DT songs that most fans dislike:

5. The Answer Lies Within
4. Just Let Me Breathe
3. A Nightmare to Remember
2. Overture (SDOIT)
1. Lost Not Forgotten


I like ANTR and Overture :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 01:46:13 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 15, 2014, 01:41:06 PM
I like ANTR and Overture :(

And you are one person. I think the general opinion of those two songs is less positive, though I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 01:47:02 PM
I think you are correct, though I like both of the pieces in question.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Laughingplace56 on January 15, 2014, 01:51:50 PM
Quote from: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 01:09:37 PM
Top 5 favorite DT songs that most fans dislike:

5. The Answer Lies Within
4. Just Let Me Breathe
3. A Nightmare to Remember
2. Overture (SDOIT)
1. Lost Not Forgotten

Top 5 least favorite DT songs that most fans like:
(Note: I don't dislike any of these, but I rank them much lower than other people)

5. Trial of Tears
4. Finally Free
3. Home
2. Voices
1. The Great Debate

This is how i would arrange those in a top 10 list:
1. The Great Debate
2. Home
3. Finally Free
4. Trial of Tears (great song that i don't regard as highly as most seem to.)
5. Lost Not Forgotten (love it. Don't get the hate at all.)
6. Overture (This is an excellent overture.)
7. Voices (I like it a lot, just not as much as everyone else.)
8. Just Let Me Breathe (people don't like this song? I think it's really fun.)
9. The Answer Lies Within (I like it, but it's a little boring.)
10. A Nightmare To Remember (would be perfectly fine if it was like 7 minutes shorter. Still fun every now and then however.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on January 15, 2014, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Had a hard time trying to discover what each acronym meant.
Are you guys lazy? Why not write the whole album or song name?

Seriously! Acronyms are only useful when they can be easily understood at a glance. I mean "TOWHTSTS" is useless and by the time I've thought of all the letters I could have typed "The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun" three times. In this age of everyone knowing how to type I don't get the point of these acronyms.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 03:48:54 PM
I agree that TOWHTSTS is a ridiculous acronym (personally, I refer to it as Ridiculously Long Song Title), but as a general rule, acronyms aren't a problem.  You just get used to them. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 15, 2014, 03:57:36 PM
I was that way at first. I always typed out the full title. Still do sometimes. But other times, yeah, I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 15, 2014, 04:19:18 PM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
Had a hard time trying to discover what each acronym meant.
Are you guys lazy? Why not write the whole album or song name?
When I was a DTF rookie, I remember I often had to google acronyms and remember being mildly annoyed by the whole thing. They'll quickly rub off on you, without even noticing. Bookmark this in the meantime: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39318.0
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 15, 2014, 04:22:14 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
Yeah, a song has to be rated before it can be overrated. Of all of IAW, it gets the most hate, easily. Personally I'd say its underrated if anything, as the shorter, accessible songs often are.

This...............and it's an awesome tester for stereo systems (along with Metropolis intro)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:09:34 PM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 15, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
The Enemy Inside is the best straightforward metal song DT has ever made.

That's definitely controversial. My opinion on that song is that it is by far the worst instrumental they've done in their career. Pointless, meandering, and every single solo in it is terrible. Including, and especially, that "drum computer demo button" drum solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 15, 2014, 05:11:28 PM
Rumbo, that's not the instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:09:34 PM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 15, 2014, 05:20:34 AM
The Enemy Inside is the best straightforward metal song DT has ever made.

That's definitely controversial. My opinion on that song is that it is by far the worst instrumental they've done in their career. Pointless, meandering, and every single solo in it is terrible.

I think your lack of even knowing what track is what is more controversial here. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:12:29 PM
Oh shit. Never mind. Totally mapped that to Enigma Machine. :lol

TEM is still shit though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 05:13:37 PM
ENIGMA MACHINE. EM. NO "THE". CONTROVERSY!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 15, 2014, 05:15:03 PM
 :lol

It is my least favorite instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:15:58 PM
EM is too short an acronym. I'll stick with TEM.

Unless you're telling John Myung has a suffix called "Xavier".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 05:16:40 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:15:58 PM
EM is too short an acronym. I'll stick with TEM.

Unless you're telling John Myung has a suffix called "Xavier".

Of course not, that's stupid.



It's the roman numeral to denote that he's the 10th robot to bear the name John Myung.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:36:54 PM
Ok, back to serious controversial time:

Barring TCOT (which I quite enjoy), the best BCSL tracks are ... the covers. And even more controversially, at this point I might actually more enjoy hearing them sprucing up some old prog covers than their own new stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:04:13 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 05:15:58 PM
EM is too short an acronym. I'll stick with TEM.

Fair enough.  I guess I'll stick with being confused whenever you talk about that song. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 07:06:14 PM
Let's call Endless Sacrifice TES from now on, and Constant Motion shall become TCM, and Panic Attack becomes TPA, These Walls is TTW, Blind Faith is TBF, you get the (bigger) picture..... :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 07:07:14 PM
I never abbreviate any of those songs really because their acronyms are too short. Enigma Machine is just annoying to type.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 15, 2014, 07:07:21 PM
It hasn't created many fans so I'm fine thinking of EM as The Enemy Machine(TEM)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
The These Walls.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 07:10:17 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
The These Walls.   :lol

I found that one the most amusing too. :lol The 2 letter acronyms have always been fine in the past. The important thing is understanding what you mean, and tbh TEM just confuses people, because they don't know whether you are screwing up Enigma Machine, or screwing up The Enemy Inside.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 15, 2014, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
The These Walls.   :lol

The Status Seeker. The Afterlife. The Another Day. The Illumination Theory. The 6:00. The Innocence Faded. The Erotomania. The Voices. The Lie. The Scarred. The New Millennium. The Peruvian Skies. Okay I'm bored, someone else do the rest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 15, 2014, 07:17:15 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 15, 2014, 05:11:28 PM
Rumbo, that's not the instrumental.

:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 15, 2014, 07:19:51 PM
Well since Enigma Machine is so goddamn annoying to type, and "EM" isn't satisfactory for some unclear reason, I suggest we assign an arbitrary symbol to it.  Unicode, anyone?

1. FAS
2. TEI
3. TLG
4. η
5. TBP
6. BTV
7. STR
8. AFTR
9. IT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 07:19:59 PM
The scarred, the misunderstood. The stream of consciousness, the lines in the sand. The outcry, the fatal tragedy: the war inside my head.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 15, 2014, 07:20:42 PM
So are we just naming off indie bands now?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:21:31 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on January 15, 2014, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
The These Walls.   :lol
The Lie.

I think I'd be really concerned if people actually felt the need to abbreviate 'Lie'.   :lol

Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 07:10:17 PM
tbh TEM just confuses people, because they don't know whether you are screwing up Enigma Machine, or screwing up The Enemy Inside.

Yep.

Quote from: theseoafs on January 15, 2014, 07:19:51 PM
Well since Enigma Machine is so goddamn annoying to type, and "EM" isn't satisfactory for some unclear reason, I suggest we assign an arbitrary symbol to it.  Unicode, anyone?

1. FAS
2. TEI
3. TLG
4. η
5. TBP
6. BTV
7. STR
8. AFTR
9. IT

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 15, 2014, 07:21:45 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 15, 2014, 07:17:15 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 15, 2014, 05:11:28 PM
Rumbo, that's not the instrumental.

:lol

:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zyzzyva17 on January 15, 2014, 07:27:58 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on January 15, 2014, 07:19:51 PM
Well since Enigma Machine is so goddamn annoying to type, and "EM" isn't satisfactory for some unclear reason, I suggest we assign an arbitrary symbol to it.  Unicode, anyone?

I would've gone with Q.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 07:28:58 PM
Œ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2014, 07:43:28 PM
Let's abbreviate it as CS then. (Crap song)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 15, 2014, 07:44:22 PM
... But that's still only two letters.  You must mean TCS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 15, 2014, 07:44:52 PM
Nope, because then we'll get it confused with the Adobe Creative Suite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 15, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
Also The Color Spectrum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on January 15, 2014, 08:43:45 PM
Thank's for the replies, everyone! :D
Phew.. . It's hard to find bad/controversial things to say about Dream Theater,
Let me try some more:

If they put Eve, Bombay Vindaloo and Gemini together in an album, it would be definitely better than what they just released. They need a break.


Also, what happened to the songs above? Why weren't they recorded yet?
Sorre fo any englishes mistakens :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on January 15, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
Controversial: My favorite song off of DT12 might be The Enemy Inside.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 15, 2014, 09:14:17 PM
The Enemy Inside is one of the few DT songs that I truly do not enjoy listening to. The opening riff is just so godawful to me, I can barely stand it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:22 PM
Quote from: nijnaninja on January 15, 2014, 08:43:45 PM
Phew.. . It's hard to find bad/controversial things to say about Dream Theater,
How about this:  Why do DT's songs all need to be so long and complicated?  They need to be short and more repetitive so they're easy to sing along.  And what's with all the long hair??  Time to get some haircuts, shorten the songs and make them more accessible to the general public and radio programmers.  I mean, have they learned nothing from mid-90s era Metallica???

 :omg: :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 15, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
Quote from: Implode on January 15, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
Controversial: My favorite song off of DT12 might be The Enemy Inside.

it's right up there for me too - along with (but below) IT and TBP.   It seems to be the Another Day of DT12 -  I enjoy the heavy , "to the point" nature of the song when I feel like a  :metal   I also like the way Mangini announces his presence right at the start.

Aside from some of JR's soloing I think it's a great track to change things up a bit ............although playing it following a well produced album it sounds like it's reaching my speakers through a muffler
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 05:26:08 AM
Quote from: rickhawk80 on January 15, 2014, 09:18:22 PM
How about this:  Why do DT's songs all need to be so long and complicated?  They need to be short and more repetitive so they're easy to sing along.  And what's with all the long hair??  Time to get some haircuts, shorten the songs and make them more accessible to the general public and radio programmers.  I mean, have they learned nothing from mid-90s era Metallica???

 :omg: :lol
You couldn't be more right, sir.
I mean, HELLO-OO, don't they know distorted guitars scare away people?!
And why always wearing black or dark clothes? P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-T-Y GUYS!


Quote from: Implode on January 15, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
Controversial: My favorite song off of DT12 might be The Enemy Inside.
I can't stand the intro. I can't stand the Chorus... Pretty Meh for me.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 16, 2014, 04:28:34 PM
Don't know if this is controversial or... universal.  But Petrucci needs to get the fuck out of the mixing room and let someone without any bias mix their albums.  I watched Live at Luna Park last night and I was like 'they should just rename this band John Petrucci or some shit'.  His GUITARS ARE ALWAYS TOO LOUD.  You can't hear Jordan or Myung unless they're soloing, and when Petrucci solos, EVERYTHING is gets buried by his guitar.  At least when MP was in the band there were some loud and sweet sounding drums, but Mangini's kit, for all its bells and whistles, sounds like fly swatters on ass cheeks, because its not mixed right, just like on the albums since MP's departure.  Get someone else to produce and mix the shit. 

rant over.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 16, 2014, 05:15:17 PM
I don't feel quite as strongly, but I agree for the most part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 16, 2014, 06:19:38 PM
I feel like Jordan Rudess isn't a Dream Theater fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 16, 2014, 06:23:59 PM
:|











???

:|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
Petrucci's high gain tone is awful. His tone was, overall, much better in the old days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 16, 2014, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 16, 2014, 06:19:38 PM
I feel like Jordan Rudess isn't a Dream Theater fan.

I can see why you'd think that.  I thought the same when watching LALP.  The guy's sight reading his parts the whole time  :millahhhh 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 17, 2014, 12:35:13 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 16, 2014, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 16, 2014, 06:19:38 PM
I feel like Jordan Rudess isn't a Dream Theater fan.

I can see why you'd think that.  I thought the same when watching LALP.  The guy's sight reading his parts the whole time  :millahhhh 

I thought it was obvious he knows the parts already. He has said in the past that his sheet music also contains notes for when to switch sounds, or switch to another instrument etc. He's also classically trained and inclined to read sheet music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on January 17, 2014, 06:51:16 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 16, 2014, 04:28:34 PM
Don't know if this is controversial or... universal.  But Petrucci needs to get the fuck out of the mixing room and let someone without any bias mix their albums.

...

At least when MP was in the band there were some loud and sweet sounding drums, but Mangini's kit, for all its bells and whistles, sounds like fly swatters on ass cheeks, because its not mixed right, just like on the albums since MP's departure.  Get someone else to produce and mix the shit. 

Totally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 17, 2014, 06:59:56 AM
Interesting. I have to say that I believe that JP and MM would be the only ones in the band that would listen to Dream Theater if they weren't in Dream Theater if yagetwotI'msayin'.

Totally agree about JPs tone as well. Tone is subjective though. Volume isn't. He is way too loud on DT12 and LALP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on January 17, 2014, 07:26:39 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 17, 2014, 06:59:56 AM
Totally agree about JPs tone as well. Tone is subjective though. Volume isn't. He is way too loud on DT12 and LALP.
I love his tone on DT12, not keen on it on LALP though. But yes, I also agree he is far too loud on both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MonagFam on January 17, 2014, 07:32:53 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 17, 2014, 06:59:56 AM
Interesting. I have to say that I believe that JP and MM would be the only ones in the band that would listen to Dream Theater if they weren't in Dream Theater if yagetwotI'msayin'.

Totally agree about JPs tone as well. Tone is subjective though. Volume isn't. He is way too loud on DT12 and LALP.

I think I'll always harp on the tone/volume of JPs guitars (well, until the mix changes a bit). 

Your first point is interesting as well.  Based on what the members do in side projects as well, when JP is involved, it sounds a lot like DT still (different, of course, but closer to DT than any of JRs or JLBs solo work, or JMs involvement with Platypus/Jelly Jam).  It seems like a lot of MMs stuff has not been as "progressive" (in terms of genre labels), but I don't know what his work with Vai, etc. has been like.

Granted, what you do on a side project doesn't mean that's the sound you want or would prefer.  (I seem to recall that with Journey, Neil Schon had said something to the effect that they were all welcome to pursue side projects, but was irked when Steve Perry's solo work sounded like Journey.)  It's still an interesting thought.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on January 17, 2014, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
Petrucci's high gain tone is awful. His tone was, overall, much better in the old days.

I would tend to agree - the last two albums I feel like his tone overall has been OK, it is well textured but lacks the sharpness and grit it used to have. I used to love that about his tone. Live, it still seems to be there though. When I saw them at Wembley in 2012, the palm mutes at the end of Pull Me Under nearly knocked me off my chair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 17, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on January 15, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
It seems to be the Another Day of DT12 -  I enjoy the heavy , "to the point" nature of the song when I feel like a  :metal

wat



Quote from: sneakyblueberry on January 16, 2014, 04:28:34 PM
Don't know if this is controversial or... universal.  But Petrucci needs to get the fuck out of the mixing room and let someone without any bias mix their albums.  I watched Live at Luna Park last night and I was like 'they should just rename this band John Petrucci or some shit'.  His GUITARS ARE ALWAYS TOO LOUD.  You can't hear Jordan or Myung unless they're soloing, and when Petrucci solos, EVERYTHING is gets buried by his guitar.  At least when MP was in the band there were some loud and sweet sounding drums, but Mangini's kit, for all its bells and whistles, sounds like fly swatters on ass cheeks, because its not mixed right, just like on the albums since MP's departure.  Get someone else to produce and mix the shit. 

I think the loud guitars kind of fit DT12, but other than that, I totally agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 17, 2014, 01:04:02 PM
Quote from: genome on January 17, 2014, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
Petrucci's high gain tone is awful. His tone was, overall, much better in the old days.

I would tend to agree - the last two albums I feel like his tone overall has been OK, it is well textured but lacks the sharpness and grit it used to have. I used to love that about his tone. Live, it still seems to be there though. When I saw them at Wembley in 2012, the palm mutes at the end of Pull Me Under nearly knocked me off my chair.

Interesting. The very same palm mutes in PMU on LALP were the first thing I negatively noticed on the DVD. All you can here are the overtones, no bottom end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 17, 2014, 01:14:28 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 17, 2014, 01:04:02 PM
Quote from: genome on January 17, 2014, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
Petrucci's high gain tone is awful. His tone was, overall, much better in the old days.

I would tend to agree - the last two albums I feel like his tone overall has been OK, it is well textured but lacks the sharpness and grit it used to have. I used to love that about his tone. Live, it still seems to be there though. When I saw them at Wembley in 2012, the palm mutes at the end of Pull Me Under nearly knocked me off my chair.

Interesting. The very same palm mutes in PMU on LALP were the first thing I negatively noticed on the DVD. All you can here are the overtones, no bottom end.
Yeah, what's up with those? They don't even sound like palm mutes. They sound like he's gently striking the top of his strings with the thin edge of his pick.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on January 17, 2014, 01:22:08 PM
He should turn the gain knob counter-clockwise a bit. A generous bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 18, 2014, 05:41:45 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 17, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on January 15, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
It seems to be the Another Day of DT12 -  I enjoy the heavy , "to the point" nature of the song when I feel like a  :metal

wat




I could've structured that a lot better............"heavy" wasn't referring to Another Day.  I was , in the first instance, referring to it being a shorter and under rated song on the album. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on January 18, 2014, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 17, 2014, 01:04:02 PM
Quote from: genome on January 17, 2014, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 16, 2014, 08:01:37 PM
Petrucci's high gain tone is awful. His tone was, overall, much better in the old days.

I would tend to agree - the last two albums I feel like his tone overall has been OK, it is well textured but lacks the sharpness and grit it used to have. I used to love that about his tone. Live, it still seems to be there though. When I saw them at Wembley in 2012, the palm mutes at the end of Pull Me Under nearly knocked me off my chair.

Interesting. The very same palm mutes in PMU on LALP were the first thing I negatively noticed on the DVD. All you can here are the overtones, no bottom end.

I think that's the mix more than anything... they hit you right in the chest when you were there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRTxcTPTZsE

You can kind of get a sense of it here at 3:35. Dat scream by the way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on January 19, 2014, 03:50:12 AM
Ayreon's "The Theory of Everything" is the album of the year, and DT shouldn't even reach the top 50.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on January 19, 2014, 04:20:36 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on January 19, 2014, 03:50:12 AM
Ayreon's "The Theory of Everything" is the album of the year, and DT shouldn't even reach the top 50.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 19, 2014, 06:27:19 AM
Pelagial crushes all competition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 19, 2014, 07:07:55 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on January 19, 2014, 03:50:12 AM
Ayreon's "The Theory of Everything" is the album of the year, and DT shouldn't even reach the top 50.

...in your opinion.

For me DT12 is still the aoty (although there are a couple of 2013 releases I still haven't heard but plan to do so, so it might still change).

My top 5 for 2013:
1. Dream Theater - Dream Theater
2. Tesseract - Altered State
3. Haken - The Mountain
4. Steven Wilson - The Raven blahblah
5. Amorphis - Circle
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 19, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
I should pick up the new Tesseract, I suppose. I somewhat lost interest after Dan left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: In The Name Of Rudess on January 19, 2014, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 17, 2014, 01:22:08 PM
He should turn the gain knob counter-clockwise a bit. A generous bit.

I actually think the main reason why he uses so much gain and delay/reverb/wah nowadays (especially live) is to cover up sloppiness. His playing has steadily become less accurate over the years and by using gain/effects he can hide this to some extent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 19, 2014, 08:01:07 AM
Quote from: In The Name Of Rudess on January 19, 2014, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 17, 2014, 01:22:08 PM
He should turn the gain knob counter-clockwise a bit. A generous bit.

I actually think the main reason why he uses so much gain and delay/reverb/wah nowadays (especially live) is to cover up sloppiness. His playing has steadily become less accurate over the years and by using gain/effects he can hide this to some extent.

He had that brace on his hand in the Chaos in Progress Documentary. Could the sloppiness (haven't heard any) be from whatever problem he has with his hand?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: In The Name Of Rudess on January 19, 2014, 08:14:35 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 19, 2014, 08:01:07 AM
Quote from: In The Name Of Rudess on January 19, 2014, 07:51:07 AM
Quote from: Konrad on January 17, 2014, 01:22:08 PM
He should turn the gain knob counter-clockwise a bit. A generous bit.

I actually think the main reason why he uses so much gain and delay/reverb/wah nowadays (especially live) is to cover up sloppiness. His playing has steadily become less accurate over the years and by using gain/effects he can hide this to some extent.

He had that brace on his hand in the Chaos in Progress Documentary. Could the sloppiness (haven't heard any) be from whatever problem he has with his hand?

I guess yes, if he has tendonitis/carpal tunnel/another medical issue then that could impact his playing. It could also be that he now spends more time on other things, like composing/producing/family etc., I don't know. I'm not saying his playing is always sloppy, it's just that I've noticed that the fast alternate picking/sweep picking stuff and other difficult parts are now less accurate than they used to be in the TOT era for example, and I think this is (at least one of) the reasons why he uses more gain/effects.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 19, 2014, 08:20:16 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 19, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
I should pick up the new Tesseract, I suppose. I somewhat lost interest after Dan left.

I don't own One (yet), but from the songs off of it I've heard, I think Altered State totally kills it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 20, 2014, 08:09:51 AM
I know I'm in the stark minority on this one, but I wish DT did 2 hour shows with an opening act instead of 3 hours of DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 20, 2014, 08:12:09 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 20, 2014, 08:09:51 AM
I know I'm in the stark minority on this one, but I wish DT did 2 hour shows with an opening act instead of 3 hours of DT.
Why is that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 20, 2014, 08:17:15 AM
Honestly, I zone out. Simple as that. And, if that other thread is to be believed, James has a hard time staying consistent under that kind of strain.
And, well-chosen opening bands can make a concert all the more interesting. I discovered Spock's Beard as an opener to DT back in the day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 20, 2014, 08:18:26 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 20, 2014, 08:17:15 AM
Honestly, I zone out. Simple as that. And, if that other thread is to be believed, James has a hard time staying consistent under that kind of strain.
And, well-chosen opening bands can make a concert all the more interesting. I discovered Spock's Beard as an opener to DT back in the day.

I hear ya.

I discovered DT as an opener!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on January 20, 2014, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 19, 2014, 07:07:55 AM
...in your opinion.

...in your opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 20, 2014, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 20, 2014, 08:17:15 AM
Honestly, I zone out. Simple as that. And, if that other thread is to be believed, James has a hard time staying consistent under that kind of strain.
And, well-chosen opening bands can make a concert all the more interesting. I discovered Spock's Beard as an opener to DT back in the day.

Well, if you discovered Spock's beard that way, that's pretty cool. But when RR pushes metalcore bands to open for DT... Yeah, no, I'd much rather not have an opening band at all, than to have Trivium open for them. Sure, Trivium is far from the worst of its kind, but it still wasn't a very fitting band to open for someone like DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 20, 2014, 08:41:14 AM
DT doing 3-hour shows again is one of the main reasons why I am traveling to other cities to see them for the first time in a decade.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 20, 2014, 08:46:05 AM
On JPs sloppiness......I actually think the opposite. There are passages he nails with more proficiency these days. Like that fast unison at the end of the Fatal Tragedy solo. He fluffs that on Scenes from NY. I think the too much gain and effects things is just a matter of JP over indulging. I much prefer his live tone circa '92/93.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 20, 2014, 08:47:41 AM
And I also discovered Spocks Beard as an opener as well as Porcupine Tree who I think opened at the back end of the same tour IIRC.

Frost* opening for DT was also a highlight.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.

2. I think the guitar parts on On The Backs Of Angels are better than it's predecessor Pull Me Under.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 06:11:39 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.

Because it sounds cool and so people can enjoy it? Why shouldn't they include it? Just because it wasn't intended to be played, doesn't mean the music doesn't merit being on an album and heard. :tup
And excluding it wouldn't necessarily mean you'd get another song in its place. After all, the album isn't a full disc as it is, so it's not like it bumped off any potential songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:42:02 AM
Yes, Mike Portnoy, songs that are included on CDs should be played live regardless of the reason not to. They could have just included FAS on the live release later on if people wanted to hear it that badly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:42:02 AM
Yes, Mike Portnoy, songs that are included on CDs should be played live regardless of the reason not to. They could have just included FAS on the live release later on if people wanted to hear it that badly.

I'm pretty sure it's the band's decision what they include on an album and what they don't. Also I enjoy FAS being on the album.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 07:31:36 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:42:02 AM
Yes, Mike Portnoy, songs that are included on CDs should be played live regardless of the reason not to. They could have just included FAS on the live release later on if people wanted to hear it that badly.

I'm pretty sure it's the band's decision what they include on an album and what they don't. Also I enjoy FAS being on the album.

Why wouldn't it be the bands decision?  Isn't that kind of obvious?  I just disagree with including a short piece for which they are using an intro tape live. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 07:49:24 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.
People being familiar with FAS before going to a show gives it an incredibly larger impact.
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
2. I think the guitar parts on On The Backs Of Angels are better than it's predecessor Pull Me Under.
Two controversial opinions in one. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on January 23, 2014, 09:32:38 AM
Controversial opinions from last night show:

Lie has the best chorus of Dream Theater discography. I thought this as I was singing "Don't tell meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" together with the whole venue. Also, it's one of the best songs to hear in a live setting. I was in awe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 23, 2014, 09:35:45 AM
Quote from: The Stray Seed on January 23, 2014, 09:32:38 AM
Controversial opinions from last night show:

Lie has the best chorus of Dream Theater discography. I thought this as I was singing "Don't tell meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" together with the whole venue. Also, it's one of the best songs to hear in a live setting. I was in awe.
I wouldn't say it's their best chorus ever, but it's definitely kickass (just like the whole song) :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 07:49:24 AM

Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.

People being familiar with FAS before going to a show gives it an incredibly larger impact.
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
2. I think the guitar parts on On The Backs Of Angels are better than it's predecessor Pull Me Under.
Two controversial opinions in one. :biggrin:

Firstly, I agree that the song would make a larger impact after hearing it previously.  My point is - play the damn thing yourselves then.   :P   

Second, While it's not as blatantly obvious as LNF, there is enough to make a basic comparison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 23, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 07:31:36 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:42:02 AM
Yes, Mike Portnoy, songs that are included on CDs should be played live regardless of the reason not to. They could have just included FAS on the live release later on if people wanted to hear it that badly.

I'm pretty sure it's the band's decision what they include on an album and what they don't. Also I enjoy FAS being on the album.

Why wouldn't it be the bands decision?  Isn't that kind of obvious?  I just disagree with including a short piece for which they are using an intro tape live.

That's fine for you to think that way, but I think it goes without saying that you are missing the point of the song.  I am not even that big a fan of it, but the point of it is more than obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 10:18:09 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.

I don't see how it's a waste of disc space. They still had room on the disc for another 10 minute song, but they didn't use it because they deemed that the album was long enough as it was. So it's not like they had to shelf another song just to fit FAS into the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Firstly, I agree that the song would make a larger impact after hearing it previously.  My point is - play the damn thing yourselves then.   :P
But what then what would the open the show with? :P They wanted their own opener, they wanted people to know it, it's short and it fits the album perfectly. You could make a similar case for the band leaving off the orchestra section of IT btw.
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Second, While it's not as blatantly obvious as LNF, there is enough to make a basic comparison.
Regarding the beginning, definitely, the structure and the arrangement are quite similar and you could say the buildup and the bass break resembles "watch the sparrow falling". While I still wouldn't call it predecessor, we're actually in agreement, I just found it funny to point out the amount of possible controversy in your post. :) I really like the guitar parts as well, if I were a guitar player, I'd definitely want to learn it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD7ArwmkAz4.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:44:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 23, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 07:31:36 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:42:02 AM
Yes, Mike Portnoy, songs that are included on CDs should be played live regardless of the reason not to. They could have just included FAS on the live release later on if people wanted to hear it that badly.

I'm pretty sure it's the band's decision what they include on an album and what they don't. Also I enjoy FAS being on the album.

Why wouldn't it be the bands decision?  Isn't that kind of obvious?  I just disagree with including a short piece for which they are using an intro tape live.

That's fine for you to think that way, but I think it goes without saying that you are missing the point of the song.  I am not even that big a fan of it, but the point of it is more than obvious.

I do remember JP saying in an interview that they wanted a to write an intro that they could use live, instead of using songs from movie soundtracks, etc.  I get the point of it. I just don't agree with them using a tape instead of playing it themselves. I can't believe I'm the only one who wouldn't rather see them play it themselves.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 10:18:09 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 06:07:51 AM
1.  I think that adding FAS was a waste of disc space. Not that it is a bad song, but if they are just going to use an intro tape for it, why bother?  I would have rather had another full length song.

I don't see how it's a waste of disc space. They still had room on the disc for another 10 minute song, but they didn't use it because they deemed that the album was long enough as it was. So it's not like they had to shelf another song just to fit FAS into the album.

Maybe, maybe not.  If they would have freed up some space, they could have done another 5 or 6 minute song. 

Quote from: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Firstly, I agree that the song would make a larger impact after hearing it previously.  My point is - play the damn thing yourselves then.   :P
But what then what would the open the show with? :P They wanted their own opener, they wanted people to know it, it's short and it fits the album perfectly. You could make a similar case for the band leaving off the orchestra section of IT btw.
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:06:03 AM
Second, While it's not as blatantly obvious as LNF, there is enough to make a basic comparison.
Regarding the beginning, definitely, the structure and the arrangement are quite similar and you could say the buildup and the bass break resembles "watch the sparrow falling". While I still wouldn't call it predecessor, we're actually in agreement, I just found it funny to point out the amount of possible controversy in your post. :) I really like the guitar parts as well, if I were a guitar player, I'd definitely want to learn it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD7ArwmkAz4.

I don't agree with doing the middle of IT with a tape either.  Don't get me wrong, I love FAS. It would just be nice to seem them come out  and play it like they did with Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Exactly - I think JP's rhythms and riffs in that song trump PMU's by a landslide.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:44:57 AM
Maybe, maybe not.  If they would have freed up some space, they could have done another 5 or 6 minute song.

It's a 70 minute album as  it is. They could have easily fit another 5 or 6 minute song onto it. If they were particularly compelled to write another one, I'm sure they would have. I don't see how FAS even factors into that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 11:16:35 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 10:44:57 AM
Maybe, maybe not.  If they would have freed up some space, they could have done another 5 or 6 minute song.

It's a 70 minute album as  it is. They could have easily fit another 5 or 6 minute song onto it. If they were particularly compelled to write another one, I'm sure they would have. I don't see how FAS even factors into that.

They didn't want to deliberately just fill the CD to the max so they were conscious of writing shorter songs.  If you take away FAS which is just shy of the 3 minute mark, and added another 5 minute song, they still would have been at about the 70 minute mark since the album comes it at about 68 minutes. Either way, I would have rather had a full song than a short instrumental piece that they aren't even playing themselves live. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 11:32:59 AM
I still don't see a difference. Sure, they didn't want to jam pack the CD, but that also means they wrote the amount of songs that they felt was appropriate. Even if FAS wasn't on the album, that doesn't mean there'd be a different song on it. For all we know, they would've extended a few of the other songs and just made 3 of them a minute longer, or just extended Illumination Theory. There's absolutely no reason to believe that if they decided not to put FAS on the album, that we'd have another song.

The fact that they're not actually playing it live is a little disappointing, but if anything, I'd say that means they could easily omit it from the live DVD if they wanted to, but certainly not from the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 11:45:02 AM
While I agree that one shouldn't assume that DT would have added an extra song if they omitted FAS, it's just as implausible to assume that they wouldn't add an extra song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
There was some interview with either JP or JR where it was alluded to that they kept track of the total amount of audio time. Some part of the album was created from the realization that there was still time left on the CD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 11:45:02 AM
While I agree that one shouldn't assume that DT would have added an extra song if they omitted FAS, it's just as implausible to assume that they wouldn't add an extra song.

I still don't see how the fact that they're not playing it live, has anything to do whether it should or shouldn't be on the album.
If they're not even playing it live, and it wasn't on the actual album, then all we'd get is a recording of it during the intro of the DVD, which would seem pretty pointless to me. If a song isn't being played live, then we might as well enjoy a professional, studio version of it, rather than a live playback of that studio version.

Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 11:53:45 AM
There was some interview with either JP or JR where it was alluded to that they kept track of the total amount of audio time. Some part of the album was created from the realization that there was still time left on the CD.
The easter egg, I would guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 11:45:02 AM
While I agree that one shouldn't assume that DT would have added an extra song if they omitted FAS, it's just as implausible to assume that they wouldn't add an extra song.

I still don't see how the fact that they're not playing it live, has anything to do whether it should or shouldn't be on the album.
If they're not even playing it live, and it wasn't on the actual album, then all we'd get is a recording of it during the intro of the DVD, which would seem pretty pointless to me. If a song isn't being played live, then we might as well enjoy a professional, studio version of it, rather than a live playback of that studio version.


It's my personal opinion.  Maybe you're just not seeing it the way I am. Personally, I think if they recorded a song then there is no reason for them to not play it themselves.  To me, just playing it as an intro tape isn't what I would expect from them.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
It's my personal opinion.  Maybe you're just not seeing it the way I am. Personally, I think if they recorded a song then there is no reason for them to not play it themselves.  To me, just playing it as an intro tape isn't what I would expect from them.

I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that we should miss out on it on the actual album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 23, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
It's my personal opinion.  Maybe you're just not seeing it the way I am. Personally, I think if they recorded a song then there is no reason for them to not play it themselves.  To me, just playing it as an intro tape isn't what I would expect from them.

I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that we should miss out on it on the actual album.

Keep it on the album and play it live themselves and I'll be happy. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 23, 2014, 12:36:00 PM
I think the whole FAS debate hits at my larger, more comprehensive controversial opinion.

First, my controverisal theory, which is the premise behind my controversial opinion: Ever since the band started self-producing, they've been under the impression that every song they record during a given album session deserves to be on that album.

Now, for the opinion: This has lead overall to less consistently good albums, and more albums with throwaway tracks. For something like "False Awakening Suite", I guess it's cool on the live intro tape, but did we really need it on an album that (I think) is already too long? Does it add value to the album? Would it have been better rolled out live, and then maybe released on a live album? My opinion is"No, No, Yes", respectively, but it doesn't matter - DT wrote FAS while they were recording DT12, so of course, they're going to include it.

DT just doesn't seem to believe that any of their songs should be left on the cutting room floor. To me, that's frustrating, but I totally respect and understand that some fans love DT's approach. For better  or worse, they pile it all on the plate every single time, and while I'd prefer shorter and more concise albums, I can see why other fans love that DT put everything on the table.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 01:03:53 PM
I would agree as DT has 5/9 throwaway tracks for me. :neverusethis:
That isn't the case with any other album other than FII though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 23, 2014, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 23, 2014, 12:36:00 PM
I think the whole FAS debate hits at my larger, more comprehensive controversial opinion.

First, my controverisal theory, which is the premise behind my controversial opinion: Ever since the band started self-producing, they've been under the impression that every song they record during a given album session deserves to be on that album.

Now, for the opinion: This has lead overall to less consistently good albums, and more albums with throwaway tracks. For something like "False Awakening Suite", I guess it's cool on the live intro tape, but did we really need it on an album that (I think) is already too long? Does it add value to the album? Would it have been better rolled out live, and then maybe released on a live album? My opinion is"No, No, Yes", respectively, but it doesn't matter - DT wrote FAS while they were recording DT12, so of course, they're going to include it.

DT just doesn't seem to believe that any of their songs should be left on the cutting room floor. To me, that's frustrating, but I totally respect and understand that some fans love DT's approach. For better  or worse, they pile it all on the plate every single time, and while I'd prefer shorter and more concise albums, I can see why other fans love that DT put everything on the table.

Unfortunately, it seems pretty clear to me that they think everything they write for each album is exactly what they wanted out of it as a result of self-producing. Obviously, you are free to have your own opinion of their albums, but I don't think it's fair to try and justify your opinions using what you think the band thinks during the writing phase, when you don't even have to justify your opinion in the first place.

EDIT: I think I misunderstood your post a bit, so feel free to disregard this post. XD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 23, 2014, 02:06:15 PM
I'm prefacing my opinion one what DT do with my "theory" that it is indeed what they do because I don't want to give others the impression that what I'm saying is verifiable knowledge. To ME, personally, it seems obvious that that is what they do. But I'm not gonna post my opinions from the stance of being a DT authority.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 23, 2014, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 23, 2014, 02:06:15 PM
I'm prefacing my opinion one what DT do with my "theory" that it is indeed what they do because I don't want to give others the impression that what I'm saying is verifiable knowledge. To ME, personally, it seems obvious that that is what they do. But I'm not gonna post my opinions from the stance of being a DT authority.

That's what I thought right after I posted and read your post again, I think I skipped a couple words or something and it made it seem like you were doing just that. :P But now I understand what you mean.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
Hello people. My first post on a pretty tough topic, but here we go!

-ADTOE is the worst album they ever created(though Outcry and BAI are great, showing the real spirit of the album)
-I love the era starting from ToT to ADTOE
-FII demos are WAY better than the final product
-TEI can easily be among the best 10 songs
-TSF is the best 12SS song, way more complex and meaningful than TGP
-I&W is somehow overrated, I personally enjoy Awake more than it
-The Dance of Eternity is the second best song, after 8VM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the third after those
-Another Hand/Killing Hand LATM is JLB's best performance he has ever done
-Derek Sherinian could be DT's best ever keyboardist if FII came out as it was in the demos, though I don't really like the guy
-Jordan never overdoes the previous songs on live performances

There you go, enjoy ^^
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 03:48:49 PM
Most of that is wrong.


:neverusethis:


Welcome to the forum, bro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:51:33 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 03:48:49 PM
Most of that is wrong.


:neverusethis:


Welcome to the forum, bro.

Eh, everyone has some opinions to say, either they are right or wrong :)

Thanks for the welcome ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
Hello people. My first post on a pretty tough topic, but here we go!

-ADTOE is the worst album they ever created(though Outcry and BAI are great, showing the real spirit of the album)
-I love the era starting from ToT to ADTOE
-FII demos are WAY better than the final product
-TEI can easily be among the best 10 songs
-TSF is the best 12SS song, way more complex and meaningful than TGP
-I&W is somehow overrated, I personally enjoy Awake more than it
-The Dance of Eternity is the second best song, after 8VM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the third after those
-Another Hand/Killing Hand LATM is JLB's best performance he has ever done
-Derek Sherinian could be DT's best ever keyboardist if FII came out as it was in the demos, though I don't really like the guy
-Jordan never overdoes the previous songs on live performances

There you go, enjoy ^^

wat
Sure.
I wouldn't agree. I don't like You Or Me or the TAMP demo that much.
TEI is awesome but not top 10 material in my eyes.
Definitely agree. TSF rocks. 
I don't enjoy a lot of Images and Words, Awake is a top 3 album.
Both great songs, not top 2 though.
No.
I don't like listening to live versions without video so wouldn't know.
No.
Agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:57:43 PM
I read that most people really favor ADTOE. I honestly want to learn what's really good about it. Hope you guys can enlighten me :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 04:00:18 PM
I've really disliked ADToE before coming to this forum, but ever since then it's been one of the only albums that I can listen to without skipping songs. It has the perfect mix of ballads and heavy songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 23, 2014, 04:03:25 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:57:43 PM
I read that most people really favor ADTOE. I honestly want to learn what's really good about it. Hope you guys can enlighten me :)

It either just clicks with you or it doesn't. Different strokes as they say. To me, it's a mid-tier DT album (though mid-tier for DT is still amazing), so I like ADTOE a lot. It really only boasts one song that I just can't listen to (BMU,BMD), while the rest of the album ranges from solid (On the Backs of Angels) to excellent (Breaking All Illusions). That's just me though. Others will undoubtedly have different reasons why they enjoy the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 05:09:10 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 23, 2014, 12:36:00 PM
I think the whole FAS debate hits at my larger, more comprehensive controversial opinion.

First, my controverisal theory, which is the premise behind my controversial opinion: Ever since the band started self-producing, they've been under the impression that every song they record during a given album session deserves to be on that album.

Now, for the opinion: This has lead overall to less consistently good albums, and more albums with throwaway tracks. For something like "False Awakening Suite", I guess it's cool on the live intro tape, but did we really need it on an album that (I think) is already too long? Does it add value to the album? Would it have been better rolled out live, and then maybe released on a live album? My opinion is"No, No, Yes", respectively, but it doesn't matter - DT wrote FAS while they were recording DT12, so of course, they're going to include it.

DT just doesn't seem to believe that any of their songs should be left on the cutting room floor. To me, that's frustrating, but I totally respect and understand that some fans love DT's approach. For better  or worse, they pile it all on the plate every single time, and while I'd prefer shorter and more concise albums, I can see why other fans love that DT put everything on the table.

I generally disagree with all of that. As far as the consistency of their albums goes, I'd say they've always had pretty much the same ratio of "less than amazing" songs. (I'm not going to call them throw away tracks, since I still think most of them are pretty great, just not as great as DT's best.) But if we must refer to them as "throw away tracks" then I'd say WDADU, Awake and FII have had just as many throw away tracks as anything that came afterwards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Awake and SFAM are the only two albums without any weak or "throwaway" tracks imho.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Awake and SFAM are the only two albums without any weak or "throwaway" tracks imho.
Agreed about SFAM, but there are about 4-5 songs on Awake that I skip more often than not. For me, the only other DT album with no filler tracks is DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 23, 2014, 06:44:32 PM
Awake is perfect. Even the bonus track is pretty good.

I agree that the fiddle solo on Images and Words is filler and brings the album down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 23, 2014, 07:42:22 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 23, 2014, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
Awake and SFAM are the only two albums without any weak or "throwaway" tracks imho.
Agreed about SFAM, but there are about 4-5 songs on Awake that I skip more often than not. For me, the only other DT album with no filler tracks is DT12.

I'd say that SDOIT doesn't have any filler tracks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 07:57:14 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
-ADTOE is the worst album they ever created(though Outcry and BAI are great, showing the real spirit of the album)
-I love the era starting from ToT to ADTOE
-FII demos are WAY better than the final product
-TEI can easily be among the best 10 songs
-TSF is the best 12SS song, way more complex and meaningful than TGP
-I&W is somehow overrated, I personally enjoy Awake more than it
-The Dance of Eternity is the second best song, after 8VM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the third after those
-Another Hand/Killing Hand LATM is JLB's best performance he has ever done
-Derek Sherinian could be DT's best ever keyboardist if FII came out as it was in the demos, though I don't really like the guy
-Jordan never overdoes the previous songs on live performances

There you go, enjoy ^^

1. Pretty close, but WDADU will always win the worst album contest.
2. Nothing wrong with that. :tup
3. Nope, the final album ended up better in every way, and the songs that got left off deserved to stay there. :biggrin:
4. It's a great straightforward metal song, although they definitely have more than 10 better
5. There's nothing meaningful about rehashing better songs, and TSF is trying and failing to be as awesome as TGP.
6. Awake is much more overrated than IaW.
7. Kinda crazy, but better than hating it I guess. :P
8. See above. :lol
9. It is pretty awesome.
10. Just no.

Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
WDADU will never be the worst DT album in a universe where TOT exists. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 08:06:43 PM
ITNOG alone smashes anything from WDADU, and the rest of the album is good too! :getoffmylawn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
ITNOG is probably my least favorite DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 23, 2014, 08:19:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 08:06:43 PM
ITNOG alone smashes anything from WDADU, and the rest of the album is good too! :getoffmylawn:

Agreed.

Honestly, I think Charlie Dominici gave WDADU such a different sound and different style, that I barely consider it a DT album. James LaBrie was a major game changer for DT and changed their dynamics entirely. DT wouldn't be what it is without him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 23, 2014, 08:20:46 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
ITNOG is probably my least favorite DT song.

That streak of us agreeing on things just came to a crashing halt.    :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:25:30 PM
Sorry bro. I just don't like it. The melodies do nothing for me, and when there's almost nothing in it I like, it's so freaking long. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 23, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
No worries.  :)  For me, ITNOG is a top ten DT song, and Train of Thought is my second favorite DT album. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:28:11 PM
To be fair, I still like the album. As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, and This Dying Soul are all fantastic, and Vacant is quite lovely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 23, 2014, 08:32:58 PM
And dat SoC solo  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
I've listened to SoC many times, and I still can't remember anything from it. I just tune out, only to brought back when ITNOG starts. I then change songs. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 23, 2014, 08:47:36 PM
SoC gets in my head every time I listen to it. I guess some ear worms just don't like some people's ears :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:50:53 PM
True. I been shocked when I've played what I consider very catchy music to people, and they have almost no reaction to it at all. Different strokes and all that, I suppose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
ITNOG is probably my least favorite DT song.

Come on, that has to be an exaggeration! What about (insert any WDADU song here), PoW, Never Enough, YNM, YOM, BMS, TALW, IWBY, TBOT, BMUBMD, (anything else DTF doesn't like for whatever reason).
ITNOG is amazing. Easily top 10 for me, probably top 5.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
ITNOG is probably my least favorite DT song.

Come on, that has to be an exaggeration! What about (insert any WDADU song here), PoW, Never Enough, YNM, YOM, BMS, TALW, IWBY, TBOT, BMUBMD, (anything else DTF doesn't like for whatever reason).
ITNOG is amazing. Easily top 10 for me, probably top 5.

Honestly, I don't think it's an exaggeration.

First, I actually love PoW. Come at me. :P  Never Enough is pretty cool, I dig James' vocals. You Not Me is an inoffensive, catchy song. It's not great, but it's neither long nor bad enough for me to bear it any ill will. You Or Me I haven't heard, but I wouldn't really consider it since it's a demo. Burning My Soul is awesome, I love it.

TALW, IWBY, both good, short songs. Not fantastic, but pretty nice. I love The Best Of Times, and BMUBMD isn't that horrible.

ITNOG is killed for me by melodies I don't like, instrumentals I don't like, and being SO LONG (at least, it seems that way since I don't really enjoy much of it). I will commend the lyrics, though, they're quite good.

Commence Blob rage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 23, 2014, 09:13:01 PM
Hey Blob, I was unaware of your dislike for WDADU. Is this something new?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 09:13:24 PM
I won't rage. I'm just going to assume you're clearly joking, as ITNOG is obviously one of the best things DT has ever done. :biggrin:

And also you're off my Christmas card list for this year. You're going to have to live with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 09:27:14 PM
:sad:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 23, 2014, 09:29:26 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 09:13:24 PM
I won't rage. I'm just going to assume you're clearly joking, as ITNOG is obviously one of the best things DT has ever done. :biggrin:

And also you're off my Christmas card list for this year. You're going to have to live with that.

Train of Thought is one my least favourite DT albums, but ITNOG is one of my favourite songs. Similar with BC&SL and TCOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Laughingplace56 on January 23, 2014, 09:51:25 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 23, 2014, 03:46:29 PM
Hello people. My first post on a pretty tough topic, but here we go!

-ADTOE is the worst album they ever created(though Outcry and BAI are great, showing the real spirit of the album)
-I love the era starting from ToT to ADTOE
-FII demos are WAY better than the final product
-TEI can easily be among the best 10 songs
-TSF is the best 12SS song, way more complex and meaningful than TGP
-I&W is somehow overrated, I personally enjoy Awake more than it
-The Dance of Eternity is the second best song, after 8VM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the third after those
-Another Hand/Killing Hand LATM is JLB's best performance he has ever done
-Derek Sherinian could be DT's best ever keyboardist if FII came out as it was in the demos, though I don't really like the guy
-Jordan never overdoes the previous songs on live performances

There you go, enjoy ^^

- Top 6 or 7 album for me.
- I don't hate BC&SL and I enjoy SC. 8VM is very good and ToT is a top 5 album.
- I haven't finished posting my top 50 so won't comment on whether or not that song is even in my top 50.
- See ^
- I&W is slightly overrated. It's not their best, but still excellent. Awake>I&W.
- See 2^
- See 3^
- Haven't heard it in a while so I don't remember  :biggrin:
- Disagree wholeheartedly, and he seems like he could be a douche.
- I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 23, 2014, 10:01:12 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
ITNOG is probably my least favorite DT song.

It's not my least favorite DT song (You Not Me and Burning My Soul are unquestionably much, much worse) but I agree with you that there's not much that's good about it at all.  Everything about the song is just incredibly boring to me.  Shame, since the rest of the album is damn good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
To connect with PC's earlier post, I think the "Dream Theater songwriting machine" is sadly back to its usual grind. I have many years before stated the hypothesis that DT were at their best when they had something to prove. IAW, SFAM, ADTOE were all albums made at a time when a lot of people questioned the future of the band. So, they took chances, usually with positive results. But with DT12 that old complacency has crept back in, the one of BCSL and SC, where everything just blended into this blur.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
To connect with PC's earlier post, I think the "Dream Theater songwriting machine" is sadly back to its usual grind. I have many years before stated the hypothesis that DT were at their best when they had something to prove. IAW, SFAM, ADTOE were all albums made at a time when a lot of people questioned the future of the band. So, they took chances, usually with positive results. But with DT12 that old complacency has crept back in, the one of BCSL and SC, where everything just blended into this blur.

I wouldn't exactly say they took chances on ADTOE. I think it's actually their safest album, like they were trying to prove they would sound exactly like DT. DT12 isn't ground breaking, but I still find it noticeably more adventurous than ADTOE. Actually, I think the albums directly after all of the ones you've mentioned took more chances musically, or at least as many.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:20:54 PM
I agree with that, though I enjoy ADTOE more than DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:22:05 PM
I think the adventurousness of DT12 holds really only for the obvious parts, like the orchestral section in IT, and a few others. But outside of that DT12 is super-safe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
Oh yeah, it's safe, I just think ADTOE was safer. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:24:26 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:22:05 PM
I think the adventurousness of DT12 holds really only for the obvious parts, like the orchestral section in IT, and a few others. But outside of that DT12 is super-safe.

As I said, it's still not ground breaking stuff, but relatively speaking, I think it clearly takes more chances than ADTOE. I'm not sure ADTOE had any such parts that make me think they set out to push the envelope, whereas DT12 has those few moments where they seemed to be trying something new.
I'd say ADTOE is super safe, and DT12 is moderately safe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:25:47 PM
Well, BMUBMD was a bit different, I suppose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:26:02 PM
Same here, I enjoy ADTOE far more then DT12.
Maybe it's not the adventurousness, but simply that when they know they have something to prove, they take greater care when writing/producing, craft it a bit more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:27:00 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:25:47 PM
Well, BMUBMD was a bit different, I suppose.

A little bit, but not even as much as previous albums. It still felt like the obligatory straightforward metal song.

Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:26:02 PM
Same here, I enjoy ADTOE far more then DT12.
Maybe it's not the adventurousness, but simply that when they know they have something to prove, they take greater care when writing/producing, craft it a bit more.

I don't think it's anything conscious like that, I think if anything it's just the result of a new dynamic created by the circumstances of a different lineup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 23, 2014, 10:28:31 PM
I think technically DT12 still had things to prove, like whether is was worth self-titling, as well as whether the writing chemistry with MM in the mix is strong. I personally think it couldn't have proved either point any better than it has. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:30:15 PM
I still don't like self-titling. I like album titles, dadgummit!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:30:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:27:00 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:25:47 PM
Well, BMUBMD was a bit different, I suppose.

A little bit, but not even as much as previous albums. It still felt like the obligatory straightforward metal song.


Which for me The Enemy Inside is. I think it would be exceedingly ironic if DT got the Grammy for such a, sorry, dull song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:31:05 PM
Wouldn't be anything new, eh? :neverusethis:

Actually, I have no idea what songs have won grammys in the past.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
Sorry rumby, I mixed up my quoting/editing there, so that messed with your quoting. I think TEI is their best single in a while. It successfully does what it set out to do. My only issue is the mix detracting a bit from the song. I found it much more surprising that OTBOA of all songs got the Grammy nomination, as I felt that song was very dull.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on January 23, 2014, 10:32:26 PM
I think that DT12 might be safer than ADToE, not because they decided to create music that sounds typically Dream Theater, but because they were more concerned with poppy hooks and more conventional songwriting rather than the proggy aspect. They were trying something different, I'll give them that much, but I think it could be considered safer from a commercial perspective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:33:34 PM
Well, you could say that, but prog is what's "safe" for DT, since that's what their fan base likes, for the most part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on January 23, 2014, 10:37:14 PM
Quote from: Lucidity on January 23, 2014, 10:32:26 PM
I think that DT12 might be safer than ADToE, not because they decided to create music that sounds typically Dream Theater, but because they were more concerned with poppy hooks and more conventional songwriting rather than the proggy aspect. They were trying something different, I'll give them that much, but I think it could be considered safer from a commercial perspective.

I see your point. Although, from a commercial perspective, in another way is actually not as safe, because despite the attentive detail to hooks and more conventional songwriting, the less conventional stuff is still very, very present, especially when it comes to the shorter, more concise songs. The Looking Glass, for example, although it's concise and very catchy, has some odd time shifts in the verses, and the second verse is separated by a small instrumental passage (which is different than the first verse), and the second half of the second verse takes an unexpected change into 80s metal territory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2014, 10:39:34 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:33:34 PM
Well, you could say that, but prog is what's "safe" for DT, since that's what their fan base likes, for the most part.

I agree. If DT wrote an actual pop album, that wouldn't be considered safe for them, because it would be a departure from their signature sound that their fanbase wants, and would be risky. It's all relative to their core sound, rather than a comparison to mainstream music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 23, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
Not really an opinion but I don't plan on listening to any single song off DT12 this year or any coming year. I think the album may be the one that least justifies listens out of the entire DT catalog, including WDADU.
Also the first three songs off ADToE is the weakest album start I can think of. Past that point the album is great but the first three tracks are either OtBoA's brand of existing or just /absolutely terrible/.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 23, 2014, 10:51:10 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 23, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
Not really an opinion but I don't plan on listening to any single song off DT12 this year or any coming year. I think the album may be the one that least justifies listens out of the entire DT catalog, including WDADU.

lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:52:49 PM
Quote from: Parama on January 23, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
Not really an opinion but I don't plan on listening to any single song off DT12 this year or any coming year. I think the album may be the one that least justifies listens out of the entire DT catalog, including WDADU.
Also the first three songs off ADToE is the weakest album start I can think of. Past that point the album is great but the first three tracks are either OtBoA's brand of existing or just /absolutely terrible/.

I haven't listened to DT12 a whole lot, but I imagine I'll still spin it from time to time. After all, I disliked ADTOE when I first heard it, and I really like it now.

I mean, it's your choice and all, but that seems a bit extreme.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:56:44 PM
My new controversial opinion: SDV should have stayed on the "never been played live" list. I don't think DT can do the song justice; frankly, I don't think they understand it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 23, 2014, 11:04:28 PM
Hey, you know that it's a Dream Theater song, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 23, 2014, 11:05:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:26:02 PM
Same here, I enjoy ADTOE far more then DT12.
Maybe it's not the adventurousness, but simply that when they know they have something to prove, they take greater care when writing/producing, craft it a bit more.
:iagree:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on January 24, 2014, 12:34:05 AM
I luv this Topic :)   I'm gonna blast some of my "controversial"  opinions!  Here we go!

-    JLB and Petrucci should ditch the facial hair...  JLB Looks too serious and Petrucci looks like a roadkill ... haha :D  Don't take it too seriously. They're both so handsome without the beards :3
-    I dont understand the hate towards You Not Me... I think it is pretty good and groovy song!
-    I think that during Octavarium-era   Dream Theater was on the peak of their musical career!  Not salewise, but musically.  After that it has been more or less downhill :P
-    Everything on FII is solid Gold  Perfect songs, perfect mixing, perfect producing, perfect perfect,  Perfect album.
-    Derek Sherinian was the best thing that happened to DT!

  :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 24, 2014, 12:59:04 AM
Quote from: adastra on January 24, 2014, 12:34:05 AM
I luv this Topic :)   I'm gonna blast some of my "controversial"  opinions!  Here we go!

-    JLB and Petrucci should ditch the facial hair...  JLB Looks too serious and Petrucci looks like a roadkill ... haha :D  Don't take it too seriously. They're both so handsome without the beards :3

It's been a VERY long time since either one of them went without facial hair. I'm wondering if they'd look good without it at their current ages.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on January 24, 2014, 01:19:36 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 24, 2014, 12:59:04 AM
Quote from: adastra on January 24, 2014, 12:34:05 AM
I luv this Topic :)   I'm gonna blast some of my "controversial"  opinions!  Here we go!

-    JLB and Petrucci should ditch the facial hair...  JLB Looks too serious and Petrucci looks like a roadkill ... haha :D  Don't take it too seriously. They're both so handsome without the beards :3

It's been a VERY long time since either one of them went without facial hair. I'm wondering if they'd look good without it at their current ages.

NO problem there, I'm more into mature
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 24, 2014, 05:47:21 AM
Quote from: ? on January 23, 2014, 11:05:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2014, 10:26:02 PM
Same here, I enjoy ADTOE far more then DT12.
Maybe it's not the adventurousness, but simply that when they know they have something to prove, they take greater care when writing/producing, craft it a bit more.
:iagree:

Yeah, same here.  ADTOE was the best thing they did since 6DOIT.  DT12 is the best thing they did since....ADTOE.   

DT12 is good and all but consciously trying to keep songs at a certain length and keep the album at a certain length is a restriction in my opinion.  Just fucking write.  If you have two CDs worth of great music, then put it out.  We won't complain. We promise.  Well - not all of us. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 24, 2014, 06:15:12 AM
I agree on the notion that we're not really talking about being daring or adventurous. In that sense I'm not sure where there is left for DT to go that wouldn't alienate significant sections of their fan base - old and new. I think what we're talking about is how inspired the songs sound.

I prefer ADTOE on the whole than DT12. The songs just sound a bit more Dream Theatery to me.

I'd love to see them go back to writing on the road a bit more - showcasing new songs towards the end of tours that may or may not surface on the next album. That'd be difficult though in this allthingsgetvideoedandthrownonYouTube era I guess.

I don't think DT has a formula that works any better than any other would for them. Them writing in the studio and throwing everything they recorded on an album started with SFaM - arguably one of their strongest albums.

For me I think what keeps DT fresh is mixing it up - not so much an over haul in the musical direction but more a change in how they approach the writing process. I'd love them to take a bit longer with the writing for the next album and actually have say 8 or 9 songs that they know and are ready to record before they hit the record button.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 24, 2014, 06:31:49 AM
I still don't get the hate for DT12. As much as I like ADTOE, DT12 is far more adventurous (there's not really any DT album that sounds like it). Apart from the unnecessary ambient break in IT, I think it's phenomenal all the way through and easily one of their best albums ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 06:51:07 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 24, 2014, 06:31:49 AM
I still don't get the hate for DT12. As much as I like ADTOE, DT12 is far more adventurous (there's not really any DT album that sounds like it). Apart from the unnecessary ambient break in IT, I think it's phenomenal all the way through and easily one of their best albums ever.

I don't like DT12 because most of the songs I find bad or outright boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on January 24, 2014, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 06:51:07 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 24, 2014, 06:31:49 AM
I still don't get the hate for DT12. As much as I like ADTOE, DT12 is far more adventurous (there's not really any DT album that sounds like it). Apart from the unnecessary ambient break in IT, I think it's phenomenal all the way through and easily one of their best albums ever.

I don't like DT12 because most of the songs I find bad or outright boring.

I don't find them bad,  but I also find them kinda boring! 
But I guess my biggest problem is that i dont really like how the album sounds. IMO the drums sound like shit.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 07:08:53 AM
Quote from: adastra on January 24, 2014, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 06:51:07 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 24, 2014, 06:31:49 AM
I still don't get the hate for DT12. As much as I like ADTOE, DT12 is far more adventurous (there's not really any DT album that sounds like it). Apart from the unnecessary ambient break in IT, I think it's phenomenal all the way through and easily one of their best albums ever.

I don't like DT12 because most of the songs I find bad or outright boring.

I don't find them bad,  but I also find them kinda boring! 
But I guess my biggest problem is that i dont really like how the album sounds. IMO the drums sound like shit.

The entire mix sounds like shit. Drums sound plastic and cymbals are thin, guitars are too loud and the tone is weird, keyboards are too low and I really dislike the bass tone, even if it is louder. Did I mention the awful vocal effects?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 24, 2014, 08:02:43 AM
If we're talking hair, I would say LALP was right on the edge of what is still permissible for JP's massively receding hairline. Literally the first notable thing on the DVD for me was that "whooow, that's high up there!" when they show him the first time.

I think it's time to go short.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 24, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
I think they should have a long song without noodling. I can't think of a long DT song (over 10 minutes) that doesn't have noodling in some form or another.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 24, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
Quote from: Lucien on January 24, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
I think they should have a long song without noodling. I can't think of a long DT song (over 10 minutes) that doesn't have noodling in some form or another.

Aside from the outro solo, which is still very tasteful and melodic, TBOT is extremely restrained throughout. Repentance also doesn't have anything that I can think of off the top of my head, it's just repetitive, so isn't what I think of as a "long" song structurally speaking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 24, 2014, 11:32:08 AM
Hello guys, me again. I listened to the whole of ADTOE and DT12 back to back today. I must say that my opinions on ADTOE have changed. WDADU seems to be the worst for me now! And DT12 feels way more adventurous than ADTOE. TEI doesn't feel "dull" at all after hearing most of ADTOE, especially MM's additions are way too much. This means he did big things in the writing process. Drums feel tasty! That's all for now, it seems
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
TEI is definitely a better single than OTBOA by far. But I still think BMU,BMD is better than both Enigma Machine and The Looking Glass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 24, 2014, 11:59:48 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on January 24, 2014, 06:31:49 AM
I still don't get the hate for DT12. As much as I like ADTOE, DT12 is far more adventurous (there's not really any DT album that sounds like it). Apart from the unnecessary ambient break in IT, I think it's phenomenal all the way through and easily one of their best albums ever.

Totally agree. Haters gonna hate.


Quote from: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
TEI is definitely a better single than OTBOA by far. But I still think BMU,BMD is better than both Enigma Machine and The Looking Glass.

Is it opposite day again?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 24, 2014, 12:00:05 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
But I still think BMU,BMD is better than both Enigma Machine and The Looking Glass.

BMU,BMD has the harshness I've always looked for but the content didn't please me at all. The Looking Glass is magnificent imo, and so is Enigma Machine. But the latter one could've been better. Though I somehow connect many parts of it to TDoE...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 24, 2014, 12:04:25 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 24, 2014, 11:59:48 AM



Quote from: jakepriest on January 24, 2014, 11:46:33 AM
TEI is definitely a better single than OTBOA by far. But I still think BMU,BMD is better than both Enigma Machine and The Looking Glass.

Is it opposite day again?

I think it might be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 27, 2014, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

Not my #1, but it definitely has everything that makes Dream Theater great. Epic, orchestral parts, quiet, acoustic parts, extended wanky instrumental section, and ends with a melodic Petrucci solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on January 27, 2014, 03:31:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 27, 2014, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

Not my #1, but it definitely has everything that makes Dream Theater great. Epic, orchestral parts, quiet, acoustic parts, extended wanky instrumental section, and ends with a melodic Petrucci solo.
:tup One of their more underrated songs IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on January 27, 2014, 10:46:08 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

I wouldnät say it is my favourite :D but it surely is "different"
I like the "fantasy"lyrics and  the melodies are awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 27, 2014, 10:48:57 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 23, 2014, 10:52:49 PM
I haven't listened to DT12 a whole lot, but I imagine I'll still spin it from time to time. After all, I disliked ADTOE when I first heard it, and I really like it now.

I mean, it's your choice and all, but that seems a bit extreme.
It's less "intentionally avoiding it" as much as "I have other stuff to listen to that will fulfill me more and thus no time to listen to an album that has given me so little after a fair number of spins".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 27, 2014, 11:36:22 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

The instrumental is the only part that does nothing for me (although I don't dislike it), but the rest of the song is underratedly good. That goodbye part always gets me too. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on January 28, 2014, 12:07:47 AM
TMOLS :hearts:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 28, 2014, 05:50:00 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 27, 2014, 11:36:22 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

The instrumental is the only part that does nothing for me (although I don't dislike it), but the rest of the song is underratedly good. That goodbye part always gets me too. :tup

Agreed.  The part of the instrumental section that always does it for me is JP's solo. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 28, 2014, 05:51:27 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 28, 2014, 05:50:00 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 27, 2014, 11:36:22 PM
Quote from: Xersiz on January 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
The Ministry of Lost Souls is THE best Dream Theater song.

I get goose gumps everytime when the "goodbyee" part hits...

The instrumental is the only part that does nothing for me (although I don't dislike it), but the rest of the song is underratedly good. That goodbye part always gets me too. :tup

Agreed.  The part of the instrumental section that always does it for me is JP's solo.

JP's solo in that song is rockin'. JP always brings it in the solo department.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on January 29, 2014, 08:09:53 AM
TMOLS is an amazing song on what some people consider to be a mediocre album.  Gotta tell ya, when I listen to DT12, it makes me want to go back and listen to SC and BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 29, 2014, 08:15:40 AM
TMOLS is addictive! I love this song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 29, 2014, 06:01:46 PM
SC is a classic album and people only hate it to fit in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 29, 2014, 06:04:01 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 29, 2014, 06:01:46 PM
people only hate it to fit in.

This is where you lose me.  I like SC, but that doesn't mean I'm going to write off other people's opinions, which is exactly what you're doing.  Fact is, some people just don't like the album. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 29, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 29, 2014, 06:01:46 PM
SC is a classic album and people only hate it to fit in.

Fit in with who exactly?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on January 29, 2014, 07:38:27 PM
I remember thinking Systematic Chaos was good until I heard much of the popular opinion on it. Honestly, I can't tell if the popular opinion made me actually see that it wasn't all that great, or if it just swayed me to thinking that way :lol About half the tracks are throwaway for me, though, so it might be the former.

And TMOLS is underrated indeed :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ozzy554 on January 29, 2014, 07:52:54 PM
One of my favorite things about the new album is that the songs are more to the point. As much as I like ADTOE, and BC&SL there are a few songs that did not need to be as long as they were.

I do not like the orchestral break in IT. To me it feels more like its interrupting the song rather than being part of it,
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on January 29, 2014, 08:04:30 PM
I love TMoLS and SC in general (except for PoW, what a terrible song...). I admit I didn't like it too much before, but it needed to get more of a chance for me to listen to it properly.

I think DT12 is their third best album and I love every song on it. The melodic orientation, along with the incredible rhythmic sections and conciseness that lacked on many parts of ADToE are definitely there for DT12. And, don't get me wrong, ADToE is an excellent album too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 29, 2014, 09:02:03 PM
Quote from: ozzy554 on January 29, 2014, 07:52:54 PM
I do not like the orchestral break in IT. To me it feels more like its interrupting the song rather than being part of it,

Totally agree with the bolded part.  It's still a nice piece of music in its own right, in my opinion, but it really does derail the song for me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
To whomever said that TEI is a better single than OTBOA; I like that opinion so much that I'm going to strongly disagree!

OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting. It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.

Let that be an end to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on January 30, 2014, 03:41:04 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting.
Yes.

Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.
Maybe it flows better, but not by far, and still TEI flows pretty damn well to me. I get bored of OTBOA after a while, but TEI is so fast and tight and gets all my interest from beginning to end. More anthemic? Well, I'd rather sing along to TEI chorus rather than OTBOA's, but I get where you're coming from. OTBOA has that kind of epic vibe.


Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
Let that be an end to it.
Why? Confrontation is fun and healthy for body and spirit =)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:59:24 AM
I shoulda written that last part in green
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on January 30, 2014, 04:03:01 AM
=) I knew you were joking
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZKX-2099 on January 30, 2014, 04:27:11 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting.

Well seeing as it uses the same structure as Pull Me Under...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 05:50:07 AM
I'm not sure I'd agree that that is relevant
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
To whomever said that TEI is a better single than OTBOA; I like that opinion so much that I'm going to strongly disagree!

OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting. It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.

Let that be an end to it.

OTBOA is incredibly bland, dull prog. Like much of ADTOE, it's really lacking a strong element of what separates DT from the rest of the prog I don't like. TEI is a stronger song.


Quote from: Nearmyth on January 29, 2014, 07:38:27 PM
I remember thinking Systematic Chaos was good until I heard much of the popular opinion on it. Honestly, I can't tell if the popular opinion made me actually see that it wasn't all that great, or if it just swayed me to thinking that way :lol About half the tracks are throwaway for me, though, so it might be the former.

I remember thinking Systematic Chaos wasn't good, until I remembered to ignore the popular opinion on it and actually listen to it again, and remember that it is actually pretty good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
To whomever said that TEI is a better single than OTBOA; I like that opinion so much that I'm going to strongly disagree!

OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting. It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.

Let that be an end to it.

OTBOA is incredibly bland, dull prog. Like much of ADTOE, it's really lacking a strong element of what separates DT from the rest of the prog I don't like. TEI is a stronger song.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fucker.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 07:08:18 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
To whomever said that TEI is a better single than OTBOA; I like that opinion so much that I'm going to strongly disagree!

OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting. It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.

Let that be an end to it.

OTBOA is incredibly bland, dull prog. Like much of ADTOE, it's really lacking a strong element of what separates DT from the rest of the prog I don't like. TEI is a stronger song.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fucker.   :lol

:lol You wanna fight about it?


Neither do I. Let's just give up and go to the chat thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 07:08:18 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 03:23:14 AM
To whomever said that TEI is a better single than OTBOA; I like that opinion so much that I'm going to strongly disagree!

OTBOA is a far better representation of DTs sound and songwriting. It flows better as a song and is much more anthemic than TEI.

Let that be an end to it.

OTBOA is incredibly bland, dull prog. Like much of ADTOE, it's really lacking a strong element of what separates DT from the rest of the prog I don't like. TEI is a stronger song.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fucker.   :lol

:lol You wanna fight about it?


Neither do I. Let's just give up and go to the chat thread.

See you there
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 07:52:26 AM
Think I'm coming to the conclusion that any Blob opinion on DT is a controversial one  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 07:54:05 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 07:52:26 AM
Think I'm coming to the conclusion that any Blob opinion on DT is a controversial one  :tup

It took you this long?!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 07:57:09 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 07:52:26 AM
Think I'm coming to the conclusion that any Blob opinion on DT is a controversial one  :tup

It's all for effect.  He has a tattoo with the word "Scarred" tattooed across his back.  Underneath it reads "30 Years Say We're In This Together, DT."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 07:58:04 AM
I needed to be sure
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
I remember when I liked girls. My strategy was to pretend really hard not to like them.

I should point out I was referring to specific girls. I still like girls in the collective sense. The more the merrier in fact.

addendum. I have a girlfriend so if you're reading this the above isn't true

Maybe Blob loves Scarred. There's more to love about it than to hate. I wouldn't marry Scarred but I'd have a fun relationship with Scarred.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 08:02:14 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
I remember when I liked girls. My strategy was to pretend really hard not to like them.

I should point out I was referring to specific girls. I still like girls in the collective sense. The more the merrier in fact.

addendum. I have a girlfriend so if you're reading this the above isn't true

Maybe Blob loves Scarred. There's more to love about it than to hate. I wouldn't marry Scarred but I'd have a fun relationship with Scarred.

Especially if Scarred takes it in the poop chute. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:02:55 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
I remember when I liked girls. My strategy was to pretend really hard not to like them.

I should point out I was referring to specific girls. I still like girls in the collective sense. The more the merrier in fact.

addendum. I have a girlfriend so if you're reading this the above isn't true

Maybe Blob loves Scarred. There's more to love about it than to hate. I wouldn't marry Scarred but I'd have a fun relationship with Scarred.

Trust me, it is the most pure hate that has ever existed. There is no maybe here. Scarred is the worst thing DT have ever written. It's 95% wtf crap, and 5% meh.

:trainwreck:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 30, 2014, 08:06:39 AM
6DOIT isn't a top 5 DT album and the title track is the worst song on the album.

Hi Blob.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Beowulf on January 30, 2014, 08:07:43 AM
I'm not sure how "controversial" this is, but....

I've been listening to DT since about Score (so i'm a fairly recent fan), and have gobbled up everything i could.  And i enjoyed most of it.  But this new album...  I can't get enough of it.  It is honestly the first album of theirs i have thoroughly enjoyed start to finish; i like every single track on the album.  There isn't another DT album i can say i like every single track.  It seems that the addition of Mangini has completely revitalized the band.  You can hear the absolute joy and freedom in the new album.  He is the breath of fresh air that they apparently needed.
I know that with the release of every album, all bands are the happiest with that album...  until the next one.  "This is the best thing we've ever done..." is the sentiment.  But this album...  It's the first time i can absolutely agree.

So, "controversial"?  Blasphemous?  Its just my humble opinion.  And as they say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if its wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 08:12:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:02:55 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
I remember when I liked girls. My strategy was to pretend really hard not to like them.

I should point out I was referring to specific girls. I still like girls in the collective sense. The more the merrier in fact.

addendum. I have a girlfriend so if you're reading this the above isn't true

Maybe Blob loves Scarred. There's more to love about it than to hate. I wouldn't marry Scarred but I'd have a fun relationship with Scarred.
.....It's 95% wtf crap, and 5% meh.

:trainwreck:

(https://i.imgur.com/WHGi867.gif) (https://imgur.com/WHGi867)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 30, 2014, 08:21:49 AM
What about the intro?  I'm pretty sure I got you to admit that you liked the intro once, a long time ago.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:24:21 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on January 30, 2014, 08:21:49 AM
What about the intro?  I'm pretty sure I got you to admit that you liked the intro once, a long time ago.   :lol

What part of 5% didn't you understand? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:

See...

 I'm not fully convinced yet.  All effect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:26:53 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:

See...

 I'm not fully convinced yet.  All effect.

Nope. It's crap.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on January 30, 2014, 08:27:13 AM
You know, Blob isn't actually the only person with a negative opinion of Scarred. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 08:31:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:26:53 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:

See...

 I'm not fully convinced yet.  All effect.

Nope. It's crap.

See... there is hope. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
Transatlantic > Dream Theater

(and it's not even close anymore)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 08:46:19 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
Transatlantic > Dream Theater

(and it's not even close anymore)
While I enjoyed Whirlwind, the latest Transatlantic album was pure crap for me. The only worthwhile part was the intro of the title track which then turned into a snooze-fest anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 08:53:51 AM
Let's do a break down of Scarred shall we?

Jazzy intro
Nice mellow singing
James gets a little rowdy
little instrumental break
heavier instrumental break
dun dun dun deh dun dun dun deh dun dun dun deh dun dun dah deh dun
Awesome verses, James kicking ass, fun as hell to sing along to
pre chorus
more awesome verses
chorus
beautiful mellow poppy section
30 years say we're in this together
SO OPEN YOUR EEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEESSSSSSSSSSS
IT CALMS ME TO KNOW THAT I WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNT
chorus
dun deh deh dun deh dun deh dun deh dun deh dun deh dun
cool keyboard solo
amazing guitar solo
chorus
outro



WHERE'S THE PROBLEM, BLOB?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 30, 2014, 08:53:51 AM
WHERE'S THE PROBLEM, BLOB?

Specifically, the bit from 0:00 - 10:59. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 09:02:06 AM
I've asked you before, and now I've mapped the song out in a crude manner, but can you honestly explain why the song is so detestable to you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 30, 2014, 08:53:51 AM
WHERE'S THE PROBLEM, BLOB?

Specifically, the bit from 0:00 - 10:59. :neverusethis:

That's more of a chomp than a bit. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:20:36 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 30, 2014, 09:02:06 AM
I've asked you before, and now I've mapped the song out in a crude manner, but can you honestly explain why the song is so detestable to you?

Honestly, just about everything, and I've explained it more times than I should have to, so I'm just pointing out the most offensive parts.
The chorus is the most bizarrely confused thing I've heard from DT, like I have no idea wtf they were trying to do. It has those silly Christmas/church bells, wonky vocal melodies that go nowhere and feel like someone randomly went up and down a scale without understanding how the notes work together to create a feel or create tension. The worst chorus DT has written. It's not good enough to be a chorus.
That boring heavy riff that just systematically goes through every note that is considered metal, except without sounding heavy in the process, and then doubling it with synth strings. The whole thing is so droning. The tacked on outro that comes out of nowhere for no reason, and feels like randomly chosen notes and rhythms, trying too hard to sound proggy, and ends up sounding like the same band who muddled their way through WDADU, rather than the band that expertly crafted IaW. Why is it there? What does it do?
I don't understand what they were thinking with any part of this song. I'm not convinced they knew what they were thinking when they wrote any part of this song. It's confusing. Most of the song is barely coherent to me musically. The only part of this song I can say I truly like is JP's guitar work in the intro. After that, it's quickly downhill.

In conclusion, JayOctavarium's sig. Platypus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 09:22:59 AM
NO U
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:26:46 AM
If he don't like he don't like

I think the semi quaver triplet unison that comes in after the second chorus.....that whole section really........its just eargasmic.

Badass, bombastic. I think it's a highlight from Awake and a highlight in their catalogue. It sounds really inspired to me. The rhythm guitar under the keys solo too! Really sorta funky/fusion/rocky.....has a sorta Nuno vibe to it as well.

I will agree that there are parts that I think don't work as well as they could have. But the strong moments in that song always make it stand out as an early DT epic for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 09:42:56 AM
I have to admit that it is amusing seeing words like terrible, crap, etc. used to describe DT songs, considering Rule 12 of the forum:

12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc.

I guess that rule doesn't apply to this thread. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:44:16 AM
I think anyone posting in this thread is doing so because they hold an unpopular opinion.

Although, no one is saying DT are poop, or any of the individual members. So hey....why not.

Lifting Shadows off a Dream is a genuinely awful song though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on January 30, 2014, 09:45:25 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:44:16 AM
Lifting Shadows off a Dream is a genuinely awful song though.
:(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 30, 2014, 09:45:34 AM
There's nothing wrong with labeling a song 'terrible'. Spare me your euphemisms! 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:48:06 AM
This ain't a thread for the weak! If calling a song terrible in the controversial opinions thread offends you, then clear out. :biggrin: Nobody had a problem for the other 100 pages of the thread.......
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:51:27 AM
Funny how we keep coming back to this though.

We gorge on your unpopular opinions Blob at a frantic pace that soon dissipates.....only to find it resurrected when nobody else's unpopular opinions come close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:52:30 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:51:27 AM
Funny how we keep coming back to this though.

We gorge on your unpopular opinions Blob at a frantic pace that soon dissipates.....only to find it resurrected when nobody else's unpopular opinions come close.

Next time you need your fix, I'll write you a top 10. How about that? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 09:52:45 AM
Quote from: Dark Castle on January 30, 2014, 09:45:25 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:44:16 AM
Lifting Shadows off a Dream is a genuinely awful song though.
:(

Well he is on acid.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:55:19 AM
I'll forgive that but only cos I like the pics in your sig
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
It's the best song they've written and in my top 5 songs of all time  :corn
I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM

I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol

It just goes to show you that every possible opinion regarding DT is likely held by some DT fan, somewhere. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
It's the best song they've written and in my top 5 songs of all time  :corn
I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol

Because SDOIT isn't a mess at all. It's 42 minutes that showcases all of DT's best attributes, unlike Scarred, which doesn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 10:00:27 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on January 30, 2014, 09:55:19 AM
I'll forgive that but only cos I like the pics in your sig

Just how much would you forgive if I brought her to  you.   ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
It's the best song they've written and in my top 5 songs of all time  :corn
I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol

Because SDOIT isn't a mess at all. It's 42 minutes that showcases all of DT's best attributes, unlike Scarred, which doesn't.

Yeah, if only Scarred had lyrics as poetic as:

The smell of stale sweat and shit
Streaming through the night

 :lol :lol :lol

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:04:09 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
It's the best song they've written and in my top 5 songs of all time  :corn
I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol

Because SDOIT isn't a mess at all. It's 42 minutes that showcases all of DT's best attributes, unlike Scarred, which doesn't.

Yeah, if only Scarred had lyrics as poetic as:

The smell of stale sweat and shit
Streaming through the night

 :lol :lol :lol

 :biggrin:

Picking out two lines out of context and just laughing. That's a solid argument there. :tup

The line is obviously supposed to sound gross and putrid, to convey the terrible conditions the person has suffered from the poor treatment of their condition. And it works perfectly in the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 30, 2014, 10:04:50 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
:lol I just didn't want it to seem like hyperbole, because it genuinely is a terrible song. And I can't stand by and take such painful accusations such as finding any enjoyment from Scarred! :getoffmylawn:
It's the best song they've written and in my top 5 songs of all time  :corn
I don't see how you can like the disjointed mess of 6DOIT and then claim that Scarred is a disjointed mess  :lol

Because SDOIT isn't a mess at all. It's 42 minutes that showcases all of DT's best attributes, unlike Scarred, which doesn't.

Yeah, if only Scarred had lyrics as poetic as:

The smell of stale sweat and shit
Streaming through the night

 :lol :lol :lol

 :biggrin:

That's some brilliant alliteration there. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 30, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
6DOIT is a series of movements that are mostly all fine on their own but don't flow together well at all, leading to some of the most hilariously awkward transitions in their discography sans WDADU. Some of the movements would probably be top 50 for me on their own but if I'm to take it as one song, well, I simply can't take it as one song  :lol
And don't tell me "well then don't consider it a song" because, it objectively is a song, just one that really shouldn't be. Huge album-length epics can work sometimes but DT did not do a very good job of it if you ask me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: Parama on January 30, 2014, 10:08:15 AM
6DOIT is a series of movements that are mostly all fine on their own but don't flow together well at all, leading to some of the most hilariously awkward transitions in their discography sans WDADU. Some of the movements would probably be top 50 for me on their own but if I'm to take it as one song, well, I simply can't take it as one song  :lol
And don't tell me "well then don't consider it a song" because, it objectively is a song, just one that really shouldn't be. Huge album-length epics can work sometimes but DT did not do a very good job of it if you ask me.

This is why labels are completely pointless in music, because whether it's a song or a suite or a *whatever else* should have absolutely no bearing on how you judge the music, otherwise you're doing it wrong. It's music. 42 minutes of music. Judge it for that.

And Scarred has some very jarring transitions, especially to the outro, that doesn't even feel like the same song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on January 30, 2014, 10:12:13 AM
It's 42 minutes of music that I never have a drive to listen to as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
Well said, Parama. 

Regarding it being one song, I think certain musicians get hung up on having super long songs, like it makes them more prog or something.  Same thing with Transatlantic's The Whirlwind, which is quite clearly a suite/thematic album, but it comes off as more prog to call it a 77-minute song, so they did. 

The point: when taken as a single song, yes, Six Degrees is very messy, but as a suite where all of the movements can be taken individually, it's really not. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:13:55 AM
It's 42 minutes of music that flies by every time, and has never dragged for me or lost its shine. I've never once listened to it in pieces, because it works so well as a whole, and has always been my favourite DT song. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dark Castle on January 30, 2014, 10:15:34 AM
I can't listen to 6Degrees in whole ever, I usually just listen to Solitary Shell if I'm going to listen to it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 10:17:32 AM
I don't think I've ever been able to listen to 6 Degrees as a whole without having to skip the awfully long intro to Goodnight Kiss (the song itself is great) and the entirety of Solitary Shell (which bores me to tears).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
If I start at War Inside My Head, I can usually get through those 29 minutes (from it till the end), but while the main theme of the Overture is nice, it get very tedious after a while, while also sounding like something you'd heard in Super Mario Brothers :lol, and for some reason, while About to Crash is a really nice piece of music, it rarely fails to hold my interest.  I usually just skip to the next track and go from there. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on January 30, 2014, 10:20:08 AM
I have a long commute to work, so listening to SDOIT as a whole works for me, and I love it!! Some of DT's best work!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
If I start at War Inside My Head, I can usually get through those 29 minutes (from it till the end), but while the main theme of the Overture is nice, it get very tedious after a while, while also sounding like something you'd heard in Super Mario Brothers :lol, and for some reason, while About to Crash is a really nice piece of music, it rarely fails to hold my interest.  I usually just skip to the next track and go from there. 

That's ridiculous.





It's clearly Legend of Zelda. Which is why it sounds awesome. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 10:22:48 AM
I always listen to SDOIT all the way through.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 10:28:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
If I start at War Inside My Head, I can usually get through those 29 minutes (from it till the end), but while the main theme of the Overture is nice, it get very tedious after a while, while also sounding like something you'd heard in Super Mario Brothers :lol, and for some reason, while About to Crash is a really nice piece of music, it rarely fails to hold my interest.  I usually just skip to the next track and go from there. 

That's ridiculous.





It's clearly Legend of Zelda. Which is why it sounds awesome. :hat

More like the opening to a cheesy Disney movie where there's an aerial shot of a neighborhood.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:33:58 AM
Quote from: Zook on January 30, 2014, 10:28:21 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 30, 2014, 10:19:30 AM
If I start at War Inside My Head, I can usually get through those 29 minutes (from it till the end), but while the main theme of the Overture is nice, it get very tedious after a while, while also sounding like something you'd heard in Super Mario Brothers :lol, and for some reason, while About to Crash is a really nice piece of music, it rarely fails to hold my interest.  I usually just skip to the next track and go from there. 

That's ridiculous.





It's clearly Legend of Zelda. Which is why it sounds awesome. :hat

More like the opening to a cheesy Disney movie where there's an aerial shot of a neighborhood.

No u.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 10:38:43 AM
Hey, I love 6DOIT, but that's what the Overture reminds me of every time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 11:47:38 AM
The Overture to SDOIT is easily the band's most skippable song in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 12:24:05 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 11:47:38 AM
The Overture to SDOIT is easily the band's most skippable song in my opinion.

No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 12:25:57 PM
"In my opinion", dude. You can read, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 12:27:42 PM
No, he's saying you can't have that opinion. :p

I like Overture, btw, but I usually only listen to the Score version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
I don't allow opinions. Deal with it.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on January 30, 2014, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
I don't allow opinions. Deal with it.  :hat
If you don't allow opinions, then this thread is probably not the best place to be  :lol
Title: Re: Controversial Facts About DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 01:33:15 PM
:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on January 30, 2014, 01:50:51 PM
In my opinion, your opinion that opinions aren't allowed contradicts your own opinion that opinions in your opinion are not allowed in your opinion.

imo
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 30, 2014, 02:01:05 PM
I love Scarred. To death. I didn't used to... It always felt out of place on Awake... (plus my first introduction to Scarred was on CiM... ick). And then one day I woke up to find, 30 years has got behind.... no one told me when to run.... I missed the starting gun... And then one day it just.... clicked and I LOVE it now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 02:08:29 PM
Quote from: Implode on January 30, 2014, 01:50:51 PM
In my opinion, your opinion that opinions aren't allowed contradicts your own opinion that opinions in your opinion are not allowed in your opinion.

imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9o0Yza3zf0#t=6m26s
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: Onno on January 30, 2014, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
I don't allow opinions. Deal with it.  :hat
If you don't allow opinions, then this thread is probably not the best place to be  :lol

WTB joke detector  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 30, 2014, 02:38:18 PM
I like both Scarred and SDOIT so, the best opinion is mine :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on January 30, 2014, 02:43:06 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 01:33:15 PM
:neverusethis:

what you did there, i see it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 30, 2014, 02:44:51 PM
So, you prefer any DT song over Scarred, Mr. BlobVanDam?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on January 30, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: Onno on January 30, 2014, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 30, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
I don't allow opinions. Deal with it.  :hat
If you don't allow opinions, then this thread is probably not the best place to be  :lol

WTB joke detector  :facepalm:
Of course I detected it was a joke  :facepalm:  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: changing_seasons on January 30, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
Transatlantic > Dream Theater

(and it's not even close anymore)

This x100. Also, Neal Morse > Transatlantic > Dream Theater
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 30, 2014, 05:59:29 PM
Quote from: changing_seasons on January 30, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on January 30, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
Transatlantic > Dream Theater

(and it's not even close anymore)

This x100. Also, Neal Morse > Transatlantic > Dream Theater

olol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
also

 Dream Theater < Me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 30, 2014, 07:28:52 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 02:08:29 PM
Quote from: Implode on January 30, 2014, 01:50:51 PM
In my opinion, your opinion that opinions aren't allowed contradicts your own opinion that opinions in your opinion are not allowed in your opinion.

imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9o0Yza3zf0#t=6m26s

WTF, the drawing style has changed since I saw it last time. Not for the better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 30, 2014, 07:30:28 PM
That's from S1. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 30, 2014, 07:33:18 PM
:lol

I guess it's the same as with the Simpsons, where the first season looks strangely off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 30, 2014, 08:24:05 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on January 30, 2014, 02:44:51 PM
So, you prefer any DT song over Scarred, Mr. BlobVanDam?

The only songs I might dislike more would be a few off WDADU (and I find most of the album much better). That's not to say they don't have a few stinkers after that too, but I prefer them all.
There are only a very small handful of DT songs I can't listen to though, which is why those few always get singled out by me. I'm not into the whole "even DT's bad songs are better than most bands" crap, however, DT's lesser songs are still usually at least decent. For a band with 12 albums, that's impressive. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 31, 2014, 08:50:59 PM
I think it's really lame that Dream Theater was constantly firing band members. I can understand it, being a rich and successful musical group of elite musicians, but I like to view bands as a group of brothers. I would never fire a band member as long as they were doing their job, even at the expense of the success of the band. If you WOULD fire a brother, you were never really a family to begin with. I laugh when I hear Mike make comments about Dream Theater being a family. They're a cold hearted corporation, nothing more, nothing less. How dare Mike want to fire JLB back in the day. Some family. That was really f***ing lame that Mike would fire all those previous members, and even consider firing the long term face of the band. On another controversial and related opinion, I think Mike Portnoy is a jerk and I would want nothing to do with him if I was a musician.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
Constantly firing band members? They've done that, what, twice? Dominici (not sure how that went down) and Sherinian.

Moore left, Portnoy left, and there haven't been any other lineup changes, that I can think of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 31, 2014, 08:58:47 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
Constantly firing band members? They've done that, what, twice? Dominici (not sure how that went down) and Sherinian.

Moore left, Portnoy left, and there haven't been any other lineup changes, that I can think of.

Also the numerous singers before and after Dominici.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 31, 2014, 08:58:47 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
Constantly firing band members? They've done that, what, twice? Dominici (not sure how that went down) and Sherinian.

Moore left, Portnoy left, and there haven't been any other lineup changes, that I can think of.

Also the numerous singers before and after Dominici.

Like, the one on either side  :lol

But yeah, I think they fired Chris Collins
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 09:00:22 PM

Like, the one on either side  :lol

But yeah, I think they fired Chris Collins

JLB is so awesome, he's like 5 people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:09:50 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on January 31, 2014, 08:58:47 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
Constantly firing band members? They've done that, what, twice? Dominici (not sure how that went down) and Sherinian.

Moore left, Portnoy left, and there haven't been any other lineup changes, that I can think of.

Also the numerous singers before and after Dominici.

I don't even really consider that firing. I mean, the ones before, they weren't even DT. And after, there were only people who they tried out for a few days or shows or something. I'm pretty sure almost every band ever has done that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.

Though if you read up on it, their reasons were pretty sound. :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.


Of course, if you hire a singer for 5 minutes, that doesn't really constitute as firing a 'brother'. More like a drunken Vegas marriage getting annulled.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
JLB is so awesome, he's like 5 people.

This is worth a sig.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Oh no. James is going to fire all the other band members, and create DT anew IN HIS OWN IMAGE



:omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on January 31, 2014, 09:38:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.


Of course, if you hire a singer for 5 minutes, that doesn't really constitute as firing a 'brother'. More like a drunken Vegas marriage getting annulled.
:tup Brilliant. Just, Brilliant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
JLB is so awesome, he's like 5 people.

This is worth a sig.  :lol

You humble me, sir.


Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Oh no. James is going to fire all the other band members, and create DT anew IN HIS OWN IMAGE



:omg:

(https://i.imgur.com/7C5vaVM.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 10:30:22 PM
 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 10:36:49 PM
This calls for a LOLVARIUM

  :lol :lol :lol :rollin :rollin  :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on January 31, 2014, 11:52:38 PM
Jordan looks like an ancient Chinese warrior.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 01, 2014, 12:17:25 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Oh no. James is going to fire all the other band members, and create DT anew IN HIS OWN IMAGE
:omg:

Isn't that what his solo albums are for?

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/7C5vaVM.jpg)

Oh my.   :omg:  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Laughingplace56 on February 01, 2014, 12:31:19 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/7C5vaVM.jpg)
:clap: :clap:  :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM
I searched for the original thread to post that pic, but then I saw TGP had posted it already... dammit! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 01, 2014, 01:24:45 AM
Quote from: ? on February 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM
I searched for the original thread to post that pic, but then I saw TGP had posted it already... dammit! :lol

Ninja'd?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on February 01, 2014, 07:35:18 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Oh no. James is going to fire all the other band members, and create DT anew IN HIS OWN IMAGE

:omg:

(https://i.imgur.com/7C5vaVM.jpg)
:eek  The new version of Jordan reminds me of Ming the Merciless......
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 01, 2014, 07:36:53 AM
JLBMX looks like his hair is trying to stay as far away from his face as possible.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 01, 2014, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.

Though if you read up on it, their reasons were pretty sound. :corn

You don't even have to read up on it.  Just listen to a bootleg of the show and how bad the vocals were.   Although some say the parting was somewhat mutual.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 01, 2014, 01:24:15 PM
Just about every band has that one instrument that sees a lot of rotation before it settles on the right guy. More often than not it's the singer, because especially that spot in the band is overrun with people whose ego writes checks their voices can't cash in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 02, 2014, 12:03:50 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 01, 2014, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.

Though if you read up on it, their reasons were pretty sound. :corn

You don't even have to read up on it.  Just listen to a bootleg of the show and how bad the vocals were.   Although some say the parting was somewhat mutual.

Where?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 02, 2014, 12:58:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 02, 2014, 12:03:50 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 01, 2014, 11:24:01 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 31, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
They did have this one guy Steve Stone sing for DT for like 5 seconds before being fired after a gig.

Though if you read up on it, their reasons were pretty sound. :corn

You don't even have to read up on it.  Just listen to a bootleg of the show and how bad the vocals were.   Although some say the parting was somewhat mutual.

Where?
On Youtube:

Metropolis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cW0TYJN7tc)
A Fortune in Lies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Qr9fyl5HE)
The Killing Hand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDhEL8Rgrp0)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 02, 2014, 02:52:14 AM
Good lord... They would've been better off bringing Chris Collins back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 04, 2014, 01:37:16 PM
Those are hilarious, not because the vocals are awful, but because of all the lame attempts to hype the crowd up. An instrumental seciton of a DT song is *not* the type to be running around screaming "let me see your hands!" and "give me a hell yeah!"  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 04, 2014, 06:00:24 PM
"I was told there's a new love that's born
for each one... THAT HAS DIED!"
 :rollin

Reminds me of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE7hGMMIyfE
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 05, 2014, 12:32:28 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 04, 2014, 01:37:16 PM
Those are hilarious, not because the vocals are awful, but because of all the lame attempts to hype the crowd up. An instrumental seciton of a DT song is *not* the type to be running around screaming "let me see your hands!" and "give me a hell yeah!"  :lol

"So where did I go wrong, guys?"
"Well, Steve, the point of a DT song is here... And you're way the hell over there."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 05, 2014, 12:42:33 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:44:29 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 31, 2014, 09:34:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on January 31, 2014, 09:07:44 PM
JLB is so awesome, he's like 5 people.

This is worth a sig.  :lol

You humble me, sir.


Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 31, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Oh no. James is going to fire all the other band members, and create DT anew IN HIS OWN IMAGE



:omg:

(https://i.imgur.com/7C5vaVM.jpg)
Petrucci+LaBrie kinda looks like Viggo Mortensen(Aragorn version)  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 08, 2014, 01:35:34 AM
DT have been repeating themselves since Octavarium. ToT is the most recent album of theirs that actually impressed me; since then, their music for the most part sounds very uninspired. DT need to take more time off between albums.

The only DT albums that James Labrie actually sounds awesome are Awake and ToT. Since ToT, his voice has sounded boring because his style of singing is just bland.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 08, 2014, 12:28:01 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 08, 2014, 01:35:34 AM
DT have been repeating themselves since Octavarium. ToT is the most recent album of theirs that actually impressed me; since then, their music for the most part sounds very uninspired. DT need to take more time off between albums.

The only DT albums that James Labrie actually sounds awesome are Awake and ToT. Since ToT, his voice has sounded boring because his style of singing is just bland.

I disagree with some of your points. I think DT sounds inspired on pretty much everything, even if SC & BCSL are my two least favourite albums. As for JLB, I think after SDOIT and beginning with ToT, his voice suddenly sounds a lot thinner, but then continues to sound fuller and fuller for each album after that. I think DT12 is probably his best vocal work since SFAM & SDOIT, at least in DT album land.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 08, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
I'v always thought Labrie sounds the best on Awake and ToT. He's more aggressive on these and even gets raspy at times, which he sounds awesome when done.

I actually think BC&SL is much better then the more recent two records. But it's still IMO very uninspired feeling. It's not much better then the last two, but it has Best of Times, sooo.....;)

I just think DT is not doing anything new, at all. They have not surprised me with anything new in a looooooong time. The new stuff is very bland. They should approach writing an album in the way Tool does. Anything to sound exciting again!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 08, 2014, 01:08:37 PM
I think TOT is James' weakest performance, I don't feel like the songs suited his voice at all for the most part.

But I agree that Awake is his best performance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 08, 2014, 05:33:16 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 08, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
I just think DT is not doing anything new, at all. They have not surprised me with anything new in a looooooong time. The new stuff is very bland.

I agree with you but that happens with most bands that have a career this long anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 09, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
I also want to add: I loved the "Rapping" on ToT. That's exactly what I want the band to do: take chances, try news things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on February 09, 2014, 03:48:48 AM
Quote from: NotePad on February 09, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
I also want to add: I loved the "Rapping" on ToT. That's exactly what I want the band to do: take chances, try news things.

I liked it too. James was very aggressive on most of the songs, and i enjoyed his performances.

Here's another controversial opinion: JP doesn't seem to have an idea of what's a good sounding record. ADTOE and DT both attribute to the truth of this statement.

Try listening to Caught In A Web for example, and then switch to Behind The Veil(after the intro). Massive difference in clarity, power, instrument definition. A 20 year old record sounds so much better than their most recent one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2014, 05:18:43 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 08, 2014, 01:08:37 PM
I think TOT is James' weakest performance, I don't feel like the songs suited his voice at all for the most part.

I think the songs suited his voice well, I just think it was one of his weakest periods vocally before starting to improve from then on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 05:48:03 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on February 09, 2014, 03:48:48 AM

Here's another controversial opinion: JP doesn't seem to have an idea of what's a good sounding record. ADTOE and DT both attribute to the truth of this statement.


I don't see how that is controversial. I don't think there is a single person on this forum who liked the sound of both of those albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 09, 2014, 05:51:35 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on February 09, 2014, 03:48:48 AM
Here's another controversial opinion: JP doesn't seem to have an idea of what's a good sounding record. ADTOE and DT both attribute to the truth of this statement.
Agreed. The production didn't bother me much on ADTOE (except the drum sound and mix), but DT12 is very lacking in that department. Unfortunately I can't see DT making a truly great-sounding album again, unless they hire an outside (co-)producer. Having an outside ear could also bring a fresh approach to the music itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 09, 2014, 08:52:37 AM
DT needs more sexual lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 08:55:30 AM
I find the lack of penis in DT's lyrics very unsatisfying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 09, 2014, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 08:55:30 AM
I find the lack of penis in DT's lyrics very unsatisfying.

The Bigger Penis........
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on February 09, 2014, 09:09:36 AM
Maybe they're just waiting to come out of the closet? I mean come on, who doesn't see it coming... after that purple octopus octavarium and all...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 09:10:43 AM
Through Her Eyes would get a whole new meaning.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 09, 2014, 09:14:33 AM
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/kevshmev/6inches2.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 09, 2014, 09:15:14 AM
rofl :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 09:16:48 AM
Who is that pretty asian lady next to Petrucci and LaBrie?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 09, 2014, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.
I'd be close for me but the thing that kills it for me is JP's tone. Too much chorus(?)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.

Hell no. James singing TDEN by himself makes the song incredibly shitty.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on February 09, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.

Hell no. James singing TDEN by himself makes the song incredibly shitty.

The song makes itself incredibly shitty.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 09, 2014, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.
I agree that the LALP version is better, but I still skip it every time I watch the DVD :lol
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on February 09, 2014, 08:52:37 AM
DT needs more sexual lyrics.
Quote from: Metropolaris on February 16, 2012, 09:04:29 PM
Metropenis Pt.2: Scenes from a Pornography

Seduction
Overture 69
Strange Fetish
Through My Moans
Anal Tragedy
Beyond This Bed
Through Her Thighs
Her Husband Ain't Home
The Foreplay of Eternity
One More Time
The STD Carries On
Finally Free(Of the S&M Dungeon)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on February 09, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.

Hell no. James singing TDEN by himself makes the song incredibly shitty.

The song makes itself incredibly shitty.

 :censored
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 09, 2014, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: son_ov_hades on February 09, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.

Hell no. James singing TDEN by himself makes the song incredibly shitty.

The song makes itself incredibly shitty.

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 09, 2014, 06:31:43 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on February 09, 2014, 03:48:48 AM
Here's another controversial opinion: JP doesn't seem to have an idea of what's a good sounding record. ADTOE and DT both attribute to the truth of this statement.

Try listening to Caught In A Web for example, and then switch to Behind The Veil(after the intro). Massive difference in clarity, power, instrument definition. A 20 year old record sounds so much better than their most recent one.

I agree. This is further shown by the contrast between ADTOE/DT12 and the albums produced by JP along with MP. SFAM and 8VM are right up there with Awake and FII as their best produced albums, IMO. ADTOE isn't awful but it's not great either and DT12 is just not that good (yes, I have the HDTracks). Meanwhile even SC, which is brickwalled, sounds rather good on the HDTracks and therefore seems to be mixed very well.

I think what LALP and DT12 show us is that JP has a (probably unconscious) mixing bias. The guitar on both those releases is higher than it really needs to be, and in the case of DT12, there are times when I can hardly hear Jordan. I don't like the outside producer idea because I don't think the band would be comfortable with it at this point, but I think if Jordan became co-producer (like how John and Mike used to be co-producers), we might get some more even mixes and possibly an overall higher quality sound. I also think that they should get a engineer known for making great-sounding prog metal albums and allow this engineer to speak freely on his views of sound quality, in the case that the guys really can't hear the difference between something that's annoyingly compressed and something that sounds nice, which is entirely plausible.


Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on February 09, 2014, 08:52:37 AM
DT needs more sexual lyrics.

One Light Fuse and Get Away is enough for me, thanks. And besides, the only time you could even say they've gotten overtly sexual (because LFAGA is buried under so much innuendo that it's hard to tell, and Voices is just a brief mention in a couple of lines) is Anna Lee, and that was a rather different type of sexual lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on February 09, 2014, 07:25:37 PM
Then there's Learning to Live, though that's up to interpretation  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 09, 2014, 07:29:55 PM
I thought LtL is about AIDS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on February 09, 2014, 07:57:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 09, 2014, 07:29:55 PM
I thought LtL is about AIDS.

It is.

"When temptation brings me to my knees, and I lay here drained of strength, show me kindness/beauty/truth"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2014, 08:13:38 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 09, 2014, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.

Hell no. James singing TDEN by himself makes the song incredibly shitty.

I wouldn't go that far, but it most definitely loses its edge. That was one of those situations where MP's harsher vocals blended really well with JLB's. And some of the drum beats are wrong and don't fit too well on the LALP version, and the drumming doesn't have the power of the original, and those drums are so essential to the rhythmic drive of the song.
That aside, it's a good live version, but it can't touch the original studio version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 10, 2014, 12:37:39 AM
I think Mike Portnoy was a driving force for DT. I also feel the same way for Petrucci. Although the few albums have been stale sounding, incluning the last couple with MP, i think what the band was missing was a great Third Driving Force. Kevin Moore used to be this. But now, the glory days are over. At least IMHO ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 10, 2014, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 10, 2014, 02:12:44 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on February 10, 2014, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.

I liked this idea. But then I realized, don't they do this? Aren't they the type of band that writes together by jamming it out? But even so, i'm pretty sure tha since MP is gone JP is the main, errr, director of the music. I think JR needs to take a a step back actually. I'm more a fan on keyboards that are more background-ish and for atmosphere.

I also think it would be cool if they took a different approach to writing. At least try and see where it goes. Like maybe an album comprised of songs that are mostly individual compositions. Because they don't write this way at all anymore, we will never get another song like Space-Dye Vest, Wait For Sleep, Silent Man. These are some of their best IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 02:23:02 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on February 10, 2014, 01:25:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.

I was actually really hoping they were going to take this direction when MP left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on February 10, 2014, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: ozzy554 on February 09, 2014, 10:01:48 AM
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.
The only advantage it has over the original is that Jordan's Zen Riffer solo is a lot more appealing than randomly sliding with the Continuum all over the place, otherwise it's a mere shadow of the studio version: weak drums, bad sounding guitar and ridiculous triggered vocals.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me.
But ADTOE has more Jordan than anything ever before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 03:28:38 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on February 10, 2014, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me.
But ADTOE has more Jordan than anything ever before.

It's not even in the ballpark of SFAM or SDOIT, and I'd say Octavarium has more too. I'd say ADTOE is middle of the pack at best for JR. I think it's mostly that he's just mixed a little bit clearer/louder than albums like BCASL or TOT, but it still feels like a very restrained JR compared to his first couple of DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on February 10, 2014, 03:42:32 AM
I'll agree with Blob on JR's contributions after SDOIT. Personally i feel like for SFAM and SDOIT, they wanted to keep the LTE vibe with JR being an "equal" player with JP, while the songs were more rock than metal most of the time, and JR had a prominent role.

After TOT (excluding Octavarium which has great JR moments) it seems like DT have made their perception of the "DT sound" narrower in terms of directions, mainly focusing on guitar riffing and metal sound. This seems to have an influence on how much JR is able to contribute with melodic stuff, more piano etc. The last album solidified my impression, being a mostly guitar driven metal album with progressive elements.

If you listened to LMR, it is obvious that JR has some incredible ideas, and can successfully add another dimension to a fairly simple melody-orchestration. Unfortunately it seems to me that he is comfortable with his current role in DT, and he is not looking to be completely artistically expressed through the band's albums.

I'm sure i'm exaggerating, but to me it seems like DT is JR's daily job and a way to keep income coming, but he is not putting 100% into the songs. Maybe he doesn't want to argue with the other members for the direction of the sound, but i still feel he remains underutilized and he is ok with that, because "it's what fits into the DT sound the fans love".


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 10, 2014, 04:20:26 AM
nikatapi and BlobVanDam = right on the money.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on February 10, 2014, 04:35:14 AM
^pretty much, yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 10, 2014, 04:45:15 AM
Yeah, I agree with those two as well. And it's a shame because probably a majority of those DT moments when I think "wow, that's really inventive and awesome" are created by Jordan (TDOE ragtime, BTL horns, ES wtf break, SDOIT Overture, BF piano break, 8VM intro, etc). And now on DT12 the only thing he does like that is the BTV intro, and is for the most part behind the scenes for the rest of the album. DT's future releases badly need more Jordan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 04:52:49 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on February 10, 2014, 03:42:32 AM
I'll agree with Blob on JR's contributions after SDOIT. Personally i feel like for SFAM and SDOIT, they wanted to keep the LTE vibe with JR being an "equal" player with JP, while the songs were more rock than metal most of the time, and JR had a prominent role.

After TOT (excluding Octavarium which has great JR moments) it seems like DT have made their perception of the "DT sound" narrower in terms of directions, mainly focusing on guitar riffing and metal sound. This seems to have an influence on how much JR is able to contribute with melodic stuff, more piano etc. The last album solidified my impression, being a mostly guitar driven metal album with progressive elements.

If you listened to LMR, it is obvious that JR has some incredible ideas, and can successfully add another dimension to a fairly simple melody-orchestration. Unfortunately it seems to me that he is comfortable with his current role in DT, and he is not looking to be completely artistically expressed through the band's albums.

Agreed with all. Even though LMR was a little too out there for me musically, it had those parts where I hear the JR of LTE/SFAM, and I really miss that.
That's not to say he hasn't had great contributions to recent albums, because he certainly has, but I feel like DT don't explore the more experimental stuff as they did when JR first joined. It oftens feels more like it's guitar driven music, with JR adding something behind it, rather than keys and guitars being of equal importance to the arrangement, as it does on my favourite DT albums (including the pre-JR stuff).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 10, 2014, 07:31:54 AM
Jumping back to what was mentioned earlier in regards to JP and JR co-producing future DT records together, similar to how MP and JP did, I think it would fix some problems sonically, but not all the problems.

I agree that JR has seemed slightly "restrained" on the last few records, so adding him as a co-producer would certainly fix that in many ways, but it wouldn't fix the worst sonic issue (IMO) of JP produced albums: the drum sound.  The fact of the matter is that when MP was co-producing, the drums sounded great, and since he has left, they haven't.  Which is actually sort of funny because back when MP left my biggest concern was if DT would be able to find another great drummer that could play all of MP's parts and create great new parts on future DT music, and then found that in MM.  I never even worried about the studio drum sound suffering until ADTOE was released. 

So I think adding JR as a producer would help, but to solve all the sonic issues, a different engineer would need to be brought in that has a proven track record of getting great drum sounds.  I actually like a lot of what Rich did on DT12, but that drum sound just doesn't work for me.  Realistically though, it seems that DT was extremely happy with Rich, so if I had to guess, I'd say that he will be back at the controls for DT13...

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:36:31 AM
I would love them to get Kevin Shirley again. I don't know if there was some reason they stopped using him that might prevent them using him again (such as scheduling or whatever), but that would be the best case for me. He could get MM's kit sounding incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 10, 2014, 07:48:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:36:31 AM
I would love them to get Kevin Shirley again. I don't know if there was some reason they stopped using him that might prevent them using him again (such as scheduling or whatever), but that would be the best case for me. He could get MM's kit sounding incredible.

Yep, I totally agree... Shirley would get MM's kit sounding great and make sure each instrument had enough space in the mix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 10, 2014, 06:37:08 PM
I think we need more Jordan, so long as it isn't ARoP/TTTSTA-style wankery
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:04:01 PM
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:04:01 PM
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 10, 2014, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:04:01 PM
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

I don't even think Nickleback is the worst act in music out there like many people do, but even I was thinking this. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

Well, not really. I mean, I know this opinion would probably make a lot of people  :censored, but yeah, while TGD has some interesting parts, you have to sit through a lot of very long and uninteresting parts to get to them. And the interesting parts don't pay off nearly enough to justify sitting through the boring ones.
With Nickelback, you put it on, you get some decent riffs with very little nonsense, so all in all, it's a more enjoyable listening experience for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 10, 2014, 07:15:59 PM
TGD isn't necessarily consistently amazing throughout, and it is my least favorite from Six Degrees (a near perfect album IMO), but I wouldn't ever pass up listening to any section from it in favor of any Nickleback song I've heard.

Two different styles of music, yes. But this IS Nickleback we're talking here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:16:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:06:03 PM
Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

Well, not really. I mean, I know this opinion would probably make a lot of people  :censored, but yeah, while TGD has some interesting parts, you have to sit through a lot of very long and uninteresting parts to get to them. And the interesting parts don't pay off nearly enough to justify sitting through the boring ones.
With Nickelback, you put it on, you get some decent riffs with very little nonsense, so all in all, it's a more enjoyable listening experience for me.

I understand the sentiment fully, as I'm much more into the the 4 minute standard song structure kind of music than the slow proggy buildup kind of song, but as soon as you say something like that on a DT forum, about Nickelback of all bands, you can see why people are going to assume it's a troll automatically. :lol

I actually like the whole buildup of TGD now, but it held me back getting into the song for a long time, and it's still not a favourite song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM
Yes, but that's why I posted it in this thread!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:19:02 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM
Yes, but that's why I posted it in this thread!  ;D

In that case, it was a rousing success! Well played, sir.

Maybe I should make a list of DT songs that I like less than Nickelback, but I'm not sure the forum could take it. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:35:28 PM
Oh, but I really want to see this list!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 10, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
If you said you like Nickelback better than Scarred it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at this stage Blob  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 10, 2014, 07:39:38 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 10, 2014, 07:04:01 PM
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

I have no idea what Nickleback even sounds like, actually. But I would certainly rather listen to good pop-rock than The Great Debate. I don't even have a laundry list of things I don't like about it, I just don't really like too much about it. It's not even a bad song, in fact, it's probably a fairly good one, but it's also a 14-minute song with just no parts that are really that memorable to me at all. Honestly, I'm trying to hear it in my head right now and all I'm capable of hearing are the building drum intro and, strangely, the chorus to Never Enough (which, while I'm in this thread and talking about these songs, I like far more than The Great Debate).

Okay, finally grabbed the chorus to The Great Debate. But it took embarrassingly long given how many times I've heard that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2014, 07:40:11 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on February 10, 2014, 07:39:24 PM
If you said you like Nickelback better than Scarred it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at this stage Blob  :D

Then my work here is done. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 10, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 10, 2014, 07:39:38 PM
It's not even a bad song, in fact, it's probably a fairly good one, but it's also a 14-minute song with just no parts that are really that memorable to me at all. Honestly, I'm trying to hear it in my head right now and all I'm capable of hearing are the building drum intro and, strangely, the chorus to Never Enough (which, while I'm in this thread and talking about these songs, I like far more than The Great Debate).

Really? There are some very catchy vocal melodies on TGD during the "first phase" of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 10, 2014, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.

:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 11, 2014, 12:51:18 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.
Someone sig this :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on February 11, 2014, 02:52:27 AM
Listening to DT12 on the way to work this morning.

Still not liking the drum sound.

I also realised that it is the worst sound JP has ever committed to a DT release IMO. With all the expensive, top notch equipment he has at his disposal I just think the guitar sounds awful. Somehow he manages to get the solos sounding like he's playing a strat and it has that malmsteeny tone. Nothing wrong with that tone per se, but he's using guitars stocked with really good humbucking pickups.

But it strikes me most on the intro to The Looking Glass. I'm sorry but it sounds overly compressed and like a cheap Peavey solid state amp.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on February 11, 2014, 03:00:56 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.

haha :lol

Someone need to make this. Blob!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 11, 2014, 04:29:51 AM
Quote from: NotePad on February 10, 2014, 02:12:44 AM
I also think it would be cool if they took a different approach to writing. At least try and see where it goes. Like maybe an album comprised of songs that are mostly individual compositions. Because they don't write this way at all anymore, we will never get another song like Space-Dye Vest, Wait For Sleep, Silent Man. These are some of their best IMHO.

Beneath The Surface, and to some degree, Along For The Ride were more written in this way as far as we're aware so I wouldn't say they've completely abandoned the more individual writing approach. Besides, they seem like the kind of musicians that already have a surplus of ideas cooked up that when they get together songs just kinda happen.

That being said, I would actually be really curious to see DT do something like what Periphery did with their recent Clear EP which was an experient to explore the bands writing styles in that each track was composed (and possibly produced?) by each individual band member with an overture to establish and connect the different themes. Making for some fairly interesting and unique composition and arrangements.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 04:42:53 AM
Pretty sure JP is the only guy who usually brings full songs to the table.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 05:36:25 AM
Quote from: Zydar on February 11, 2014, 03:00:56 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.

haha :lol

Someone need to make this. Blob!

And while the route is being calculated, MP could be yelling ANALYSIS!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 11, 2014, 05:36:51 AM
Quote from: ? on February 11, 2014, 12:51:18 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.
Someone sig this :lol

Definitely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 11, 2014, 12:58:00 PM
I wonder if MP would still rejoin the band now if he could. I heard his comments on the new stuff, and he didn't sound very excited about it. And I get this, because I don't find the last 2 exciting either. I think he just wanted to do new things, and with DT it's all pretty much the same. One time I used to called DT the band that can do everything. But at some point I realized this wasn't true at all. One reason for this may be that when they do try something quite different, like on ToT, fans just shit on it. So despite their odd times signatures and all the other staples of DTs music, they never ACTUALLY takes things further or in another direction.

Octavarium is IMO the last really good DT album. These Walls, Panic Attack, Walk Beside You..... these are really great songs. And they're SONG-songs, you know? Nothing wrong with that. But what came after this album just sounded boring and uninspired to me. This is probably how MP feels when he hears the new albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
Of course he doesn't like the new albums. He had no control over them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 11, 2014, 12:58:00 PM
Octavarium is IMO the last really good DT album. These Walls, Panic Attack, Walk Beside You..... these are really great songs. And they're SONG-songs, you know? Nothing wrong with that. But what came after this album just sounded boring and uninspired to me. This is probably how MP feels when he hears the new albums.
Agreed with this. When Octavarium came out, I thought it was one of the worst Dream Theater albums, but it is easily better than 3 of the next 4 records.

In a way, the "Score" concert has come to represent the pinaccle of DT to me. After that, thing just seemed to go downhill. Systematic Chaos felt like an awkward step in a new direction followed by a new touring format (Progressive Nation), and while they could have eventually knocked it out of the part, the next album/tour cycle felt the same as SC/PN, just more watered-down (BC&SL being far worse than SC despite retaining the same style; Prog Nation 2 being a lot less interesting than the first iteration). And then you have Mike leaving the band, obviously burnt out on Dream Theater and tired of going through the motions of the DT album/tour machine.

I really don't think A Dramatic Turn of Events and DT12 are more inspired than the last two albums with Mike Portnoy. I really like ADTOE for what it is; but there aren't many new ideas present, and I can enjoy it while acknowledging that it's DT going back and redoing a lot of things they've done before. As for DT12, I just don't like it at all. One safe album after a "dramatic" shake-up is understandable, but two is really too much for me. And on DT12, I hear the same "safe" DT formulas as well as the same old nods to Rush. I'm just not very interested in that.

I don't think MP listens to the new albums much, if at all. And after seeing him live, I have to agree that him leaving DT was best for him in the long run. The prog cruise, Flying Colors, more Transatlantic, playing with Bigelf, etc., are all things I find a lot more interesting than what DT are currently doing.

Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
Of course he doesn't like the new albums. He had no control over them.
DT's loss, IMO. This is just my opinion, but DT12 is especially so stale sounding with only one primary songwriter (JP). The album oozes homogeneousness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 11, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
^^^^

This.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
But when the homogeneousness was oozing with MP's controlling stamp all over it, that was alright?   The song quality over the last two releases has improved drastically as compared to Systematic Chaos and BC & SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 11, 2014, 01:52:32 PM
 I would dispute that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 11, 2014, 01:54:40 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
But when the homogeneousness was oozing with MP's controlling stamp all over it, that was alright?   The song quality over the last two releases has improved drastically as compared to Systematic Chaos and BC & SL.

Haha, I totally agree, I was thinking the exact same thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
But when the homogeneousness was oozing with MP's controlling stamp all over it, that was alright?
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.


 
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
The song quality over the last two releases has improved drastically as compared to Systematic Chaos and BC & SL.
Can't agree. The lows on the new albums might not be as low as those on the last two MP albums, but overall I wouldn't say the songwriting has improved much at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 11, 2014, 02:06:37 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.

Are you talking about lyrics or music? If you are just addressing lyrics then I guess I can see your point.  John and Mike had been the two main lyricists on recent albums before MP's departure so that dynamic has been different over the last two albums, but if your addressing the music with your comment then I'm a little confused.  Its been widely discussed here that for the most part, MP's contributions to the music included composing drum parts (obviously) and simply helping to work with arrangement ideas. 

So on SC and BC&SL, JP and JR were still the real driving creative force of the band, muscially creating the riffs, chord progressions, melodies, etc... for the most part.  That hasn't really changed with MP's departure, JP and JR still fill that role in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 11, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
Can't agree. The lows on the new albums might not be as low as those on the last two MP albums, but overall I wouldn't say the songwriting has improved much at all.

Well, maybe your expectations were a little unreasonable. I mean, when MP left, was the band just supposed to completely change and turn into something completely different?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 11, 2014, 02:11:27 PM
Why not actually? I mean, I understand that with ADTOE they wanted to establish that they could still do the same as before. But for DT12 I had hoped for something new, something that would mark a "new DT". I think they lost a perfect opportunity to reinvent themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 11, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 11, 2014, 02:11:27 PM
Why not actually? I mean, I understand that with ADTOE they wanted to establish that they could still do the same as before. But for DT12 I had hoped for something new, something that would mark a "new DT". I think they lost a perfect opportunity to reinvent themselves.

It would be a different story if JP and JR and everyone really wanted to do something different and MP was oppressing them like some tyrant... Which is what some people often make it out to seem like. But if a band still likes the kind of music they're making, and that's what inspires them, then completely reinventing themselves, just for the hell of it makes no sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 02:30:00 PM
LaBrie, Sherinian, and Rudess all had major impacts on the sound of the band when they first came in. So yeah, I don't see why it's wrong to be disappointed that Mangini hasn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on February 11, 2014, 02:31:43 PM
I don't get the criticism that DT didn't change the game enough with DT12.  They're a band that has had basically the same sound for 30 years -- there was never a chance of them taking a huge risk with the 12th album.

In any case, DT12 was perfectly inventive for what it was.  I think DT did a great thing by keeping the songs short and punchy.  Not since SFAM have I felt that every song on a DT record was exactly as long as it needed to be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 11, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 02:30:00 PM
LaBrie, Sherinian, and Rudess all had major impacts on the sound of the band when they first came in. So yeah, I don't see why it's wrong to be disappointed that Mangini hasn't.

True, but I think their roles in the band play a factor in that.  I would expect a vocalist to change the sound of a band more than a drummer would. Also, keyboard players in DT would change the sound more than a drummer too, seeing how JP and whatever keyboardist happened to be in the band at that point were always the main musical writers for the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 11, 2014, 05:18:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 11, 2014, 02:11:27 PM
Why not actually? I mean, I understand that with ADTOE they wanted to establish that they could still do the same as before. But for DT12 I had hoped for something new, something that would mark a "new DT". I think they lost a perfect opportunity to reinvent themselves.

It would have been strange to make an album reassuring the fans that the band would retain their signature sound, only to depart from it a year later.

It stands to reason that JP wants DT to always sound like DT. There will be no "reinventing" in all likelihood. I think they'll try new things, but they'll be modest attempts to include other influences in their signature sound. If their aim was to reinvent the band, they certainly made a strange selection in the auditions. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: As I Am on February 11, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
I don't no if this is "controversial" but....static setlists SUCK! :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 11, 2014, 05:27:07 PM
never enough
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pgf on February 11, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
My highly controversial opinion. I think that Surrender to Reason, Illumination Theory and Bridges in the Sky are better than any song in Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 11, 2014, 05:36:14 PM
Quote from: pgf on February 11, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
My highly controversial opinion. I think that Surrender to Reason, Illumination Theory and Bridges in the Sky are better than any song in Awake.

I think ITPOE, Forsaken and Constant Motion are better than any song on Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anguyen92 on February 11, 2014, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: As I Am on February 11, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
I don't no if this is "controversial" but....static setlists SUCK! :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn

Agreed.  Are we ever going to hear news that the Bigger Picture, Surrender to Reason, and/or Behind the Veil is going to be played live during this whole tour?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on February 11, 2014, 05:53:06 PM
Quote from: Anguyen92 on February 11, 2014, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: As I Am on February 11, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
I don't no if this is "controversial" but....static setlists SUCK! :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn

Agreed.  Are we ever going to hear news that the Bigger Picture, Surrender to Reason, and/or Behind the Veil is going to be played live during this whole tour?
They might change it a bit for US tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.

i wouldn't have expected the other guys to cover the amount of writing that Mike did. It was obvious that the band was mostly Mike's ideas and then JP was second.  It was a breathe of fresh air hearing ADTOE.  They weren't forcing themselves to sound like anyone else. 

[quote author=Perpetual Change link=topic=35056.msg1765094#msg1765094 date=13921522Can't agree. The lows on the new albums might not be as low as those on the last two MP albums, but overall I wouldn't say the songwriting has improved much at all.
[/quote]

I don't think there are any lows on the last two CDs as compared to some of the lows on MP's last two.  If you go back even one further, Never Enough was such a low point in their career if for nothing else then just for the inspiration behind the lyrics.  Get the fuck over it Mike, really.

Mike wanted to take every different kind of band he listened to and work them into a Dream Theater CD and it just put them all over the place. With the new CD at least the goal was already stated by JP to write more "songs" as opposed to writing long songs for the sake of it. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 11, 2014, 06:20:02 PM
Illumination Theory?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 11, 2014, 06:27:04 PM
For me it's all about enough melodies to keep me interested in the lengthy songs , so I can appreciate the prog side of it.  If the prog side dominates for too long without being broken up by some hooks I lose interest quick.   So Illumination Theory achieves that fine , LTL does etc...... but many don't.  Which is why I struggle so much with a lot of the stuff on BCSL, ToT, SDOIT (disc one)....even BITS wears out its welcome with me.   BAI though I have no trouble with at all - one of my faves,.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 06:28:41 PM
Illumination Theory is ONE song on the last two CDs that is exceptionally long. However, it's the powerful epic and I don't think it's drawn out as opposed to say A Nightmare To Remember.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: As I Am on February 11, 2014, 07:58:12 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 06:14:58 PM

Mike wanted to take every different kind of band he listened to and work them into a Dream Theater CD and it just put them all over the place.

I agree with this. Over a 25 year career with the band, IMO, this was MP's only...yes, ONLY shortcoming!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 11, 2014, 08:16:43 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on February 11, 2014, 02:06:37 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.

Are you talking about lyrics or music? If you are just addressing lyrics then I guess I can see your point.  John and Mike had been the two main lyricists on recent albums before MP's departure so that dynamic has been different over the last two albums, but if your addressing the music with your comment then I'm a little confused.  Its been widely discussed here that for the most part, MP's contributions to the music included composing drum parts (obviously) and simply helping to work with arrangement ideas. 

So on SC and BC&SL, JP and JR were still the real driving creative force of the band, muscially creating the riffs, chord progressions, melodies, etc... for the most part.  That hasn't really changed with MP's departure, JP and JR still fill that role in the band.

I'm... not in the least sure that you can say that is true outright. Certainly JP and JR are responsible for writing a vast majority of the music, but I'm not at all sure that you can limit Mike's contributions to writing drum parts and "helping to work with arrangement ideas." I think Mike was responsible, far more than anyone aside from maybe Jordan, with coming up with the outside-the-box, outside of the normal direction of the band ideas that we used to see all the time from them. Like them or not, songs like Never Enough and ideas like the fan vocals of Prophets of War, the growled section of A Nightmare to Remember and the three-part harmonies that drench Black Clouds & Silver Linings were all outside the box and are probably mostly attributable to Mike Portnoy. And those are the kind of things that I love from Dream Theater. I hesitate to be exacting in my remarks because I think the music on the last two albums is very good, safe as it is, but I do think I'd probably rather hear DT11 in 3 years with Mike Portnoy as co-producer than have ADTOE and DT12. This is even while my #1 is Breaking All Illusions. I am nearly that confident that they would have topped BAI with MP in the band (to say nothing of: Jordan/John would probably have written most of what I liked in BAI anyway, and JMX had already planned to return to lyric-writing regardless of whether or not Mike left the band).

I say none of this to slight MM or JP, or to criticize the band for refusing to take a hiatus. I understand why they had to do what they did, and I think they made the right choice. And I think Mike Mangini is an incredible drummer and great fit for Dream Theater. I just miss very much what Mike Portnoy brought to the band.

Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
But when the homogeneousness was oozing with MP's controlling stamp all over it, that was alright?   The song quality over the last two releases has improved drastically as compared to Systematic Chaos and BC & SL.

A couple of things: First, I think we should call into question the notion that Mike is as controlling as people claim he is. I mean, it's documented that he had personal issues with John Myung and James, and Mike himself has admitted to having controlling aspects to his personality, but I don't think we can extrapolate from that to anything close to "Mike Portnoy took control of every aspect of Dream Theater's music." Look at the Chaos In Progress documentary. Mike and John are shown disagreeing about something musically, and at no point does Mike try to impose his will on John.

Second, I absolutely disagree that the albums released when MP was considered the band leader are homogeneous. ToT is a little bit, but that was an intentional direction that seemed to have been agreed upon by the entire band. Beyond that... 8VM has eight songs that do not sound much like each other. SC is a little less diverse, but still has 7 songs that don't really sound like each other. BCSL has a general atmosphere, but the songs are still fairly heterogenous within that atmosphere, though not as much as 8VM and SC. DT12, on the other hand, is, to my hear, exceedingly homogenous. All the songs really blend together to me, in a way that songs from SDOIT-BCSL really don't.





I didn't always think this way. I was never one of those "MP plz brng bak stay wiht Drm Thaetar INdnesa durm god MP forver" people. When I first heard ADTOE, I did think it was safe, but I also thought it had some really, really good stuff. And I figured that maybe the next album would be a return to more experimental form. It really wasn't, in my view. I did like DT12, but it did feel safe yet again to me. Only after spending a few weeks with the album did I realize that there was something missing for me with MP gone.

Everyone who followed my top 50 thread saw that ADTOE and DT12 rank similar for me among DT albums, both in the middle-of-the-road range. ADTOE is my 7th favorite and DT12 is my 8th. These are ahead of four albums: SC, WDADU, FII and SDOIT. I regard FII and WDADU as special cases: FII was made with significant interference from the label and WDADU was their debut. SC and SDOIT, on the other hand, are, in my book, the less successful experiments with unconventional styles of the MP era. But I would rather have another album that is unexpected but falls flat for me like SC than another album like DT12 that is perhaps good but expectedly so. My least favorite DT album, SDOIT (by the way, here's a controversial opinion for y'all buried deep in this post), is a very memorable one in a lot of good ways and some less good ways. But DT12 is far less memorable, and if they make another album in a similar style it'll be even less so.

I've come to expect it at this point. I don't think DT13 will surprise me. I do think it'll probably be a good album, but a very predictable one. And I've come to terms with that, and I'm still excited to see if they make songs that I do end up loving (because I do love some ADTOE and DT12 songs, really, I do; BAI is #1, FFH is #7, TBP is #10, IT is #15). But if this is in fact the case and I'm not surprised when the fall of 2015 rolls around, it'll be true, in my mind, that the golden years of Dream Theater had ended in 2010 with Mike Portnoy's departure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 08:40:32 PM
I understand what you are saying.  The songs don't sound identical, but neither do the songs on the last two releases.  However, I can't help but feel that MP stamp on his last two releases.  While I do enjoy the albums overall, they are far from my favorites.  Something about them just wasn't what I would normally expect from the band.  The last two CDs the band put out felt like a breath of fresh air. I heard more melody in the music and even seeing them live the atmosphere seemed more relaxed.  I feed off things like that and maybe I'm just a bit messed up in the head but it was a good feeling seeing how the band gelled, so to speak. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2014, 08:50:33 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
But when the homogeneousness was oozing with MP's controlling stamp all over it, that was alright?
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.


 
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
The song quality over the last two releases has improved drastically as compared to Systematic Chaos and BC & SL.
Can't agree. The lows on the new albums might not be as low as those on the last two MP albums, but overall I wouldn't say the songwriting has improved much at all.

I..... agree with all of this.
There is more balance of the other members contributing, but it's still dominated by the producer. I rank the last 3 or 4 albums about equally, all things considered. But the last two have felt a lot safer and not as interesting to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on February 11, 2014, 09:00:59 PM
My controversial opinions:

First:

James Labrie's over-singing prevents Awake from being the band's finest hour. His vocal delivery pretty much clashes with the rest of the band, doesnt fit with the lyrical content, and nearly sinks the whole affair. I love Labrie's voice and think he's so integral to the bands overall sound. I just wish he would have shown some restraint over the years; just because you can hit a note, doesn't mean you should. To be fair though, the other members play a part and have written many of those vocal melodies, so all the blame can't be placed on LaBrie.

Second:

Mike Mangini is a great drummer, but I've seen zero evidence that he can touch Mike Portnoy's musicality behind the kit. True, the mixing on the drums on the last two albums have been laughably bad, but to be honest, I don't find his drumming very memorable either. Yes, his parts may flow with the songs better, but I feel like Dream Theater is about showmanship, and I miss Portnoy's flashy over the top playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 11, 2014, 09:02:36 PM
Ha, JLB's vocals are probably my favorite part of Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 11, 2014, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 11, 2014, 09:00:59 PM
My controversial opinions:

First:

James Labrie's over-singing prevents Awake from being the band's finest hour. His vocal delivery pretty much clashes with the rest of the band, doesnt fit with the lyrical content, and nearly sinks the whole affair. I love Labrie's voice and think he's so integral to the bands overall sound. I just wish he would have shown some restraint over the years; just because you can hit a note, doesn't mean you should. To be fair though, the other members play a part and have written many of those vocal melodies, so all the blame can't be placed on

I swear, it's like you said, "What's Shadow Ninja's opinion?", and then wrote the exact opposite. :lol

I think Awake is James best performance to date, and is definitely one of the highlights of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nicmos on February 11, 2014, 09:22:18 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 11, 2014, 09:00:59 PM
My controversial opinions:

Second:

Mike Mangini is a great drummer, but I've seen zero evidence that he can touch Mike Portnoy's musicality behind the kit. True, the mixing on the drums on the last two albums have been laughably bad, but to be honest, I don't find his drumming very memorable either. Yes, his parts may flow with the songs better, but I feel like Dream Theater is about showmanship, and I miss Portnoy's flashy over the top playing.

Agreed.  None of the drumming I've heard on the last 2 albums has made me notice it.  And when I do pay attention to it, my thought is usually "I think Portnoy would have done a better job here.  They might as well have a really good drum machine playing."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on February 11, 2014, 09:31:28 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 11, 2014, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 11, 2014, 09:00:59 PM
My controversial opinions:

First:

James Labrie's over-singing prevents Awake from being the band's finest hour. His vocal delivery pretty much clashes with the rest of the band, doesnt fit with the lyrical content, and nearly sinks the whole affair. I love Labrie's voice and think he's so integral to the bands overall sound. I just wish he would have shown some restraint over the years; just because you can hit a note, doesn't mean you should. To be fair though, the other members play a part and have written many of those vocal melodies, so all the blame can't be placed on

I swear, it's like you said, "What's Shadow Ninja's opinion?", and then wrote the exact opposite. :lol

I think Awake is James best performance to date, and is definitely one of the highlights of the album.

I will say this; when he is good on that album he's great. It's just when he cranks it to 11 and goes into full on "domination" mode on every single song, I can't help but say to myself, "Jeeez, tone it down a bit JLB". Some otherwise great lyrics are rendered incomprehensible.

"My soul exposed, it calms me to know that I WOoooooOoooooOoooNT!!!!!" *my dog dies*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on February 11, 2014, 10:01:40 PM
I can't think of a more dominant vocal performance than Awake in my opinion. James is a big part of why that's my favorite album. But I can understand if it's not for everyone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2014, 10:05:36 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 11, 2014, 09:02:36 PM
Ha, JLB's vocals are probably my favorite part of Awake.

Mine too. That and IAW are JLB's strongest vocal performances, and not just because they're the highest, but because of the power, and some of the more complex melodies he manages even in that upper register.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 11, 2014, 11:04:48 PM
Quote from: As I Am on February 11, 2014, 07:58:12 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 11, 2014, 06:14:58 PM

Mike wanted to take every different kind of band he listened to and work them into a Dream Theater CD and it just put them all over the place.

I agree with this. Over a 25 year career with the band, IMO, this was MP's only...yes, ONLY shortcoming!

You see, that's part of what I liked about MP. But at the same time, being in the particular group he was a part of resulted in a lack of overall focus, and was all over the place, as someone said. Of course, this is speculation on my part.

What Petrucci wanted and wants to do with DT I'm not exactly sure. But i feel the pairing of him and MP in recent years resulted in sounding like a lack of focus on any particular style and musical masturbation as the band tried to fit so many things in.

There's a quote from a review I read recently:
"they remain "progressive" within the context of a song but how they as a band have not progressed much in the literal sense."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:19:47 AM
Damn! So many things in this thread I don't even know where to start! :lol

First of all, it's been a while since I've written in english and I'm not a native speaker, so sorry for any awkward grammar or anything.

The Portnoy subject: I feel MP departing brought the same issue as when KM took off: he was replaced by a better member as far as the instrument is concerned(MM and JR respectively), but one that is not involved in lyrics or songwriting, leading to a loss in that department. But, while the KM void was filled by MP back in the day, MP absence wasn't completely filled by the other members imho. JP and JLB stepped up to the challenge, but JMX and JR didn't IMHO. The vocals have greatly improved, sure, you can notice that James is ageing a little, but there weren't any awkward moments where you can clearly hear he's out of his comfort zone and being pushed to do something he doesn't feel to. In these last two records, you can clearly tell he had a very strong stand on what to do and what not to, you can tell when it comes to the vocals, he is the boss, so to speak, and that's a positive outcome at least for me.

When it comes to MP contrubution to the band, I feel there are two very opposite views: either he was "the tyrant of DT" or "the soul of DT"(coming from a hater or fan, respectively) or "he was just the drummer or the arranger". I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle: he was a VERY important driving force of the band, but not the only one, and he was almost as important as JP. Of course, the fact that JP plays the most important instrument of any rock band(especially a prog/heavy one), and the fact that he is a monster at it elevates him slightly over MP and the rest of the band. You can suggest him ideas, but in the end he is, and always was "the man", to put it in a way. The fact that there wasn't a significant difference in the two latest albums kind of proves that.

The "problem" I see lies in the fact that MM, while a big asset to the band when it comes to the drums, doesn't add anything else. I wouldn't expect him to, since he is the new guy in a 25+ years band. And, as someone else here pointed out perfectly, he wasn't expected to do anything else, if the band wanted another songwriter they had better options in that seven drummer auditions, the fact that they chose Mangini was a big give away on which direction the band wanted to go, or better, didn't want to.

But, as I said earlier JP and JLB upped their game, the ones who, IMHO, didn't as much were JR and JM. Sure, JM came back to writing, and that on itself is huge and extremely welcomed, but I still hope to see that bass player who blew me away with those awesome basslines, that somehow has been missing since Falling Into Infinity, the last album to have an "oh my god DAT BASS!!!" moment for me(and one of the reasons it is one of my favourite albums). Most people blame the lack of groove on JR, but after listening to his solo work, I think he has an awesome groove, the band just doesn't use it. As for the wizard, he seems content to go through the motions, he still has some awesome moments, but nothing like Scenes, Octavarium and most importantly the awesome 6DOIT. I don't expect JP, JLB and MM to give more than they already have, but I still think the other two have more to bring in. For one, I hoped JR would fill some of the backing vocals(not the cookie monster one, but harmonizing with James on some parts would be nice), he CAN sing, and way better than JP :lol.

Judging all I've written it would seem I don't like the last two albums, nothing further from reality: they both grew immensely on me, especially DT12, I hated it the first time, went "Meh" the second, and jumped to "this is really good" the third time when, as most DT albums, it clicked on me. Love it or hate, The Looking Glass, for instance, IS different from most of the stuff DT did in the past, it's not different in the context of music but let's face it, DT were never so much pioneers of music as they are more like "improvers/enhancers"(are those even words? :lol) of other pioneers. TLG is a breath of fresh air as a light hard rocker with prog elements, the only other songs that come close would be Raise The Knife or Cover My Eyes, but not quite so. Granted, it's not a Glass Prison or Lines in the Sand, but it brings something different to the catalog, and, so far in this band career, that does it for me. The same goes to the other tracks, while none of them are groundbreaking or a shock as every other album until Octavarium were back in the day, they do bring something new to the table. Unlike *cough*Lost Not Forgotten*cough*.



I was going to write some more, but I think most people will be comatose with boredom if I go on so I'll just stop here :lol.

--------
Oh and my final controversial opinion on the forum: I hate when people write the initials of a song/album and not the full name, especially when they do it without context. For example, there two songs who can be SDV you know!! >:( And things like TDG and so on doesn't help that much either, I usually spend like 5 minutes trying to remember all the songs that start with that letter until I find the right answer, it irritates me to no end.
/rant

EDITED: some stupid typos and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 12, 2014, 04:43:46 AM
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.

I agree with a lot of what you said regarding the MP issue. I think it is too commonly forgotten that JP had at least as much authority in the band as Mike did and was probably more essential to the core sound. JP is also probably the one band member without whom they would have had a lot more trouble going on and might not have gone on, had he left in 2010 instead of MP.

With The Looking Glass, I'll grant that it doesn't sound exactly like any other song, but I think it has more than a passing resemblance in style to something like Status Seeker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 12, 2014, 04:51:01 AM
Non-MM and MP controversy post time!

The Ones That Help To Set The Sun is a top 3 song for me. Yep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 12, 2014, 04:43:46 AM
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.
:blush

On Status Seeker you got me, if I said I heard that song three times I would be exagerating :lol. WDADU is the first album I heard of DT, but I only heard it once and hated it to the point that it put me off of the band for like 2 years, until I decided to give Images And Words a shot after seeing an LTE performance video.

And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 12, 2014, 05:10:19 AM
Good post, Invisible. :tup

On the issue of song/album initials, you'll learn them all in no time around here! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 12, 2014, 05:33:05 AM
Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 12, 2014, 04:43:46 AM
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.
:blush

On Status Seeker you got me, if I said I heard that song three times I would be exagerating :lol. WDADU is the first album I heard of DT, but I only heard it once and hated it to the point that it put me off of the band for like 2 years, until I decided to give Images And Words a shot after seeing an LTE performance video.

And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.

JP would definitely have been a bigger blow to the band's future had he left.  Not only because on his end his guitars are one of main things you hear in the band but also because on MP's end, he was more of their spokesperson so to speak and JP/JLB have almost seamlessly stepped up in that aspect.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 12, 2014, 07:20:46 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 11, 2014, 08:16:43 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on February 11, 2014, 02:06:37 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 11, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.

Are you talking about lyrics or music? If you are just addressing lyrics then I guess I can see your point.  John and Mike had been the two main lyricists on recent albums before MP's departure so that dynamic has been different over the last two albums, but if your addressing the music with your comment then I'm a little confused.  Its been widely discussed here that for the most part, MP's contributions to the music included composing drum parts (obviously) and simply helping to work with arrangement ideas. 

So on SC and BC&SL, JP and JR were still the real driving creative force of the band, muscially creating the riffs, chord progressions, melodies, etc... for the most part.  That hasn't really changed with MP's departure, JP and JR still fill that role in the band.

I'm... not in the least sure that you can say that is true outright. Certainly JP and JR are responsible for writing a vast majority of the music, but I'm not at all sure that you can limit Mike's contributions to writing drum parts and "helping to work with arrangement ideas." I think Mike was responsible, far more than anyone aside from maybe Jordan, with coming up with the outside-the-box, outside of the normal direction of the band ideas that we used to see all the time from them. Like them or not, songs like Never Enough and ideas like the fan vocals of Prophets of War, the growled section of A Nightmare to Remember and the three-part harmonies that drench Black Clouds & Silver Linings were all outside the box and are probably mostly attributable to Mike Portnoy. And those are the kind of things that I love from Dream Theater. I hesitate to be exacting in my remarks because I think the music on the last two albums is very good, safe as it is, but I do think I'd probably rather hear DT11 in 3 years with Mike Portnoy as co-producer than have ADTOE and DT12. This is even while my #1 is Breaking All Illusions. I am nearly that confident that they would have topped BAI with MP in the band (to say nothing of: Jordan/John would probably have written most of what I liked in BAI anyway, and JMX had already planned to return to lyric-writing regardless of whether or not Mike left the band).

I actually agree with what you are saying, but to defend my point, I did say that "for the most part" MP wrote drums parts and worked with arrangements, meaning that there may be a few specific instances that he went above and beyond that (like the songs you mentioned above) but generally speaking those were his contributions to the group.  Also, when I said helping work with arrangements I was (in my mind) including vocal arrangements in that as well as musical arrangements.  I realize I didn't specifically say that so that was probably confusing.  But to me, arrangements include vocal arrangements such as counter-melodies, harmony layering, etc... So I didn't mean to downplay MP's contributions that much I was just trying to convey that I thought losing JP and/or JR would have been a bigger blow to the band musically.

Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:19:47 AM
When it comes to MP contrubution to the band, I feel there are two very opposite views: either he was "the tyrant of DT" or "the soul of DT"(coming from a hater or fan, respectively) or "he was just the drummer or the arranger". I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle: he was a VERY important driving force of the band, but not the only one, and he was almost as important as JP. Of course, the fact that JP plays the most important instrument of any rock band(especially a prog/heavy one), and the fact that he is a monster at it elevates him slightly over MP and the rest of the band. You can suggest him ideas, but in the end he is, and always was "the man", to put it in a way. The fact that there wasn't a significant difference in the two latest albums kind of proves that.

I think you hit the nail on the head right here.  MP did a lot and he probably does fall into that middle ground you mentioned somewhere in between "the soul of DT" and "just a drummer"... And I agree losing JP would have been worse, much worse than losing MP.  Like you said, a drummer like MP can suggest or push different directions, but at the end of the day, the majority of the time, JP (or JR) was the one actually responsible for writing the music and creating something from nothing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 12, 2014, 09:43:17 AM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on February 12, 2014, 04:51:01 AM
Non-MM and MP controversy post time!

The Ones That Help To Set The Sun is a top 3 song for me. Yep.
The most I'd give it is a top 10 intro, then once the actual song gets going, it's like... Not even on the list anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toky_world on February 12, 2014, 10:17:54 AM
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: toky_world on February 12, 2014, 10:17:54 AM
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 12, 2014, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: toky_world on February 12, 2014, 10:17:54 AM
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.

He is?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: toky_world on February 12, 2014, 10:32:04 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: toky_world on February 12, 2014, 10:17:54 AM
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.

That's why I said controversial. It's a personal opinion not an universal truth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 12, 2014, 04:18:22 PM
"Hey guys, it's been 5 years, can I rejoin the band?"

"OK, welcome back to the family, Mike."

"Hey, Mangina, take a hike, it's time to get our Muse on!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:46:07 PM
 :rollin hey, MP kit has two seats, so maybe they can share the spot! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 12, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 05:25:22 PM
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 12, 2014, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 05:25:22 PM
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.
We'll never know, but did Derek-era DT sound too different for you? How about KevMo-era or Jordan-era? Those guys all had a large hand in the writing of the music. And you can be sure that if such a scenario happened, just as they chose someone to be a good fit in replacing MP, they would've done the same regarding JP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 12, 2014, 05:32:03 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 12, 2014, 05:25:22 PM
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.

I think he's a dynamic enough of a guitar player, that there are some out there that can at least capture SOME of his qualities. Sach and Vai are obvious choices, though I doubt they'd join DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 12, 2014, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 12, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).

You are absolutely correct, Scotty.  But I really do think that John leaving would be too much.  The one constant since the inception of the band is that John has been the primary writer.  Maybe if Mike P. was still in the band, they could go on.  But I just don't see it without John.  As far as founding members, the only one they would have left is John M., and he doesn't write enough and does not appear to be assertive enough in his musical vision to drive the band.  James is practically a founding member, but doesn't write much of the music.  While Jordan is a capable writer, I just don't see him taking the lead and carrying on without John.  Again, you make a good point about the fact that the vast majority of us would have said they were done without Mike P., and yet, here we are.  And lots of other bands have lost key members and gone on.  But IMO, I just think losing John would be the straw that would break this particular camel's back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 12, 2014, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 12, 2014, 05:52:25 PM
You are absolutely correct, Scotty.  But I really do think that John leaving would be too much.  The one constant since the inception of the band is that John has been the primary writer.  Maybe if Mike P. was still in the band, they could go on.  But I just don't see it without John.  As far as founding members, the only one they would have left is John M., and he doesn't write enough and does not appear to be assertive enough in his musical vision to drive the band.  James is practically a founding member, but doesn't write much of the music.  While Jordan is a capable writer, I just don't see him taking the lead and carrying on without John.  Again, you make a good point about the fact that the vast majority of us would have said they were done without Mike P., and yet, here we are.  And lots of other bands have lost key members and gone on.  But IMO, I just think losing John would be the straw that would break this particular camel's back.
No no no - perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I'm saying if JP had left instead of MP. I fully agree that it would be too much for JP to leave at this stage in the game. But yeah, if MP had still been in the band, it would've been possible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 12, 2014, 06:25:30 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 12, 2014, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).

There would be/will be no Dream Theater as we know it without JP. If they brought in someone else, they could probably make great music in the same style, but it would sound very different from all the previous albums. The difference would be far far far greater than the difference between the keyboard players or the drummers, given JP's role, his extraordinary skill as one of the top players in the genre, and the importance of the guitar in DT's music.

The guy writes most of the music, most of the lyrics, and plays the most essential instrument in the band's sound.  It's basically his band more than it is the others'. Again, the band could conceivably pick up another great guitarist-- there are so many of them these days-- and make good music. But there'd be little benefit in carrying the name and trying to convince the fans that the most important (by far) guy's departure is not going to radically change the product.

Also, I definitely batted an eyelash when I listened to the difference in keyboardists and drummers for the first time. The difference between those guys is very apparent.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
Yeah, without both of them they will be done. It is interesting the other scenario though(JP instead of MP), actually I thought about starting a thread when I joined here, but since I'm a n00b I didn't want to be mistaken for a troll so I gave up :P.

I still have a lot of trouble seeing it, since JP to me is the musical leader of DT, even on the MP era. It would be a lot closer to Roger Waters and Pink Floyd, or even bigger. Portnoy, as big as is ideas were and his directing of the band, is still the drummer, therefore a lot more replaceable in this kind of band. If MP were the only lyric writer, it would have been a different thing, but as he was, he was the leader on the general ideas for the band, but the execution of those ideas were on JP(and JR) behalf.

As for the "DT survived KM", well, you have a really good point, but I still think that it's different for two things: 1) It was early in their careers, it would have been A LOT bigger if it were 20 years and 10 albums into their career. AND 2) The keyboard play the SECOND most important role in DT music, the guitar plays the first, so JP's impact would still be bigger.

I think JP was kind of "the leader in the shadows" when MP was in the band, you listen to JP play in NAMM 94 and '96 all by himself and there is A LOT of funky riffs in his playing and soloing, which led to the distinctive Falling Into Infinity sound, that most people so eagerly attribute to Sherinian, but I think it was more of a JP and JM thing. My point is wherever JP moved with his sound and style, the band followed him, not the other way around.

That leads to the "who could replace him in the hypothetic 2010 scenario of him and not MP leaving?", I seriously don't know. One of the main things about JP is that he is a jack-of-all-trades as far as electric guitar is concerned, he is not the best on any department, but he is the 2nd best in all of them. He can morph into The Edge simplistic effect-driven playing, go to Gilmour soulful soloing, shred like Satriani, do jazzy licks, funky riffs, really heavy crunchy playing, he's sort of a chameleon as far as guitar(and lyrics actually) is concerned. I'm not a very knowleadgble person as far as music is concerned(especially compared to some of what I've been reading here), but I simply can't imagine ONE guitar player that can cover all of the aspects of JP, I can name a lot that can cover some of his style and actually do as great, but not one who is as well rounded as JP. That's actually the reason I became into DT, I heard all of their albums in order, but I wasn't as genuinly surprised until I reached to FII, I was ASTOUNDED as how what I considered a really good shredder morphed into a completely different player and was GREAT at it. I just don't see anyone filling that spot, but then again, maybe he is replaceable, I just don't know enough guitar players.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 13, 2014, 08:22:59 AM
Quote from: Invisible on February 12, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
....That leads to the "who could replace him in the hypothetic 2010 scenario of him and not MP leaving?", I seriously don't know. One of the main things about JP is that he is a jack-of-all-trades as far as electric guitar is concerned, he is not the best on any department, but he is the 2nd best in all of them. He can morph into The Edge simplistic effect-driven playing, go to Gilmour soulful soloing, shred like Satriani, do jazzy licks, funky riffs, really heavy crunchy playing, he's sort of a chameleon as far as guitar(and lyrics actually) is concerned. I'm not a very knowleadgble person as far as music is concerned(especially compared to some of what I've been reading here), but I simply can't imagine ONE guitar player that can cover all of the aspects of JP, I can name a lot that can cover some of his style and actually do as great, but not one who is as well rounded as JP. That's actually the reason I became into DT, I heard all of their albums in order, but I wasn't as genuinly surprised until I reached to FII, I was ASTOUNDED as how what I considered a really good shredder morphed into a completely different player and was GREAT at it. I just don't see anyone filling that spot, but then again, maybe he is replaceable, I just don't know enough guitar players.

Yeah man, nice post.  I agree that without both MP and JP DT would cease to exist, or at least should cease to exist.  In the case of JP being the one to leave instead of MP, man I don't know... I really think that would have had such a huge impact, I'm not sure the band would have survived or at least survived and come through the transition as well as they have transitioned drummers.

Like you said, JP would be hard to replace, heck that would be a nightmare gig as a guitarist to try to replace John Petrucci! And your observation is a good one, JP is sort of a jack-of-all-trades to a certain degree.  There are definitely styles that he doesn't really play, but in comparison to most other metal or heavy rock guitarists who are typically good at one or two certain styles, JP is a standout. His playing encompasses amazing riff writing, interesting chord progressions and structures, fast technical shredding passages, great melodic playing, effect driven parts, volume swells, acoustic guitar parts, etc, etc.... That would be a pretty big task to handle. It would definitely change the sound of DT more than any other instrument change has before, keys or drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 08:28:21 AM
Re: Who did the band need more, Mike P or John P?

The obvious answer is John, since the band would have lost their primary songwriter, which would have been a much harder thing to overcome. But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 13, 2014, 09:23:35 AM
Agree with the above posts here. JP is the harmonic backbone of Dream Theater. While it certainly would have been possible to find a replacement guitarist in terms of skill, any songs after that would have been drastically different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 13, 2014, 09:24:16 AM
 PC, I see your point, and agree to a large extent. But prepare to be flamed, man...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 09:38:18 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 08:28:21 AM
Re: Who did the band need more, Mike P or John P?

The obvious answer is John, since the band would have lost their primary songwriter, which would have been a much harder thing to overcome. But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.

I'm safe and boring I'm afraid -  I thought ADTOE and (even more so)  DT12 were a return to form and I won't mourn the loss of the attitude that produced SC, ToT and BC&SL.     If they keep producing the same record over and over then yes , perhaps I'll lose interest but I don't see any sign of that yet and I doubt JP will let that happen. 

No flaming here - just a difference in taste.

I love Portnoy as a drummer btw - and each album had something I liked - but I place a lot of value in melody/song structure and I  wasn't rapt in where they were heading for quite some time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on February 13, 2014, 09:24:16 AM
PC, I see your point, and agree to a large extent. But prepare to be flamed, man...

lol, I'm prepared. Funny thing is, I've come full circle since when Mike P left, when I was almost overly excited about it. Now that the dust has settled, and I've had time to compare MP's newer projects with DT's new music, I feel like I project a lot of what I didn't like about what DT were doing unfairly onto Mike.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 13, 2014, 10:08:36 AM
To me, DT has always been first and foremost about musicianship. Their incredible skill level (on behalf of all the members) is what gives them their respectability, not their 'attitude'. They've always been a class act, and they don't need to prove they're badass or anything of the sort. They're musicians.
I happen to really like ToT and especially Systematic Chaos, so I'm not saying some of that Metal attitude was a bad thing, but after SC, BCSL, and ADTOE, I think it's really refreshing to hear an album that's a little bit more Rush influenced, like DT12, is quite refreshing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 13, 2014, 10:09:29 AM
If you happen to "especially like" SC, I doubt much common ground will be found :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 13, 2014, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 13, 2014, 10:09:29 AM
If you happen to "especially like" SC, I doubt much common ground will be found :lol
Well, it is that thread.

And SC is amazing! Their best album since SFAM.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on February 13, 2014, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 13, 2014, 10:21:35 AM
And SC is amazing! Their best album since SFAM.  :metal

The fact that you think SC is better than SDOIT is a little too much for me to handle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 13, 2014, 10:47:12 AM
Quote from: theseoafs on February 13, 2014, 10:34:44 AM
The fact that you think SC is better than SDOIT is a little too much for me to handle.

Yes, yes, we all know you hate SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 13, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
For me, it's not that I have SC, it just never grabbed me like other albums.  The test of time is how many times do I play those older albums and I rarely go for SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 13, 2014, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 13, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
For me, it's not that I have SC, it just never grabbed me like other albums.  The test of time is how many times do I play those older albums and I rarely go for SC.

I usually play each DT album at least once a year. Sometimes I'll just listen to each album one by one. And sometimes I just play whatever I feel like. Sometimes it's systematic, and sometimes it's chaos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 13, 2014, 11:17:46 AM
Systematic Chaos took foreeeever to grab me but when it did, man, I really like that album. ... Just behind most over DT albums though :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 13, 2014, 11:24:06 AM
Didn't MP say if any of the other guys left he'd most likely end DT?

The only songs I revisit from SC are PoW, ITPOE, and TMOLS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on February 13, 2014, 08:22:59 AM
There are definitely styles that he doesn't really play, but in comparison to most other metal or heavy rock guitarists who are typically good at one or two certain styles, JP is a standout.
Well, of course, there are a lot of styles he doesn't cover, and some that he doesn't do very well, the flamenco sort of thing in the Evening With JR wasn't that great actually, and I don't like his tone on the acoustic/classical guitar at all(maybe because it's the only style I myself sort of play, and suck worse btw :lol), but for a rock guitar player, he certainly covers quite a few different styles, although he seemed to favour his metal side a little too much lately.

Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 08:28:21 AM
But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.
With this I don't entirely agree. I mean, DT has definitely lost a creative source of ideas with MP departure, and that is a hit on the band, but I don't think this two albums would have been that much different with him on the band.

Actually, the whole MP/not MP affair kind of reminds me of when Argentina national football team sucks and people start praising whoever is in the bench or isn't playing, "if (this guy) was on the team this wouldn't have happened" and the the coach actually puts that player in the field, and the team sucks anyway :lol. My comparison doesn't intend to imply that DT sucks but more that one band member out of five wouldn't actually make that much difference and that people project whatever they don't like about something to be fixed by whoever isn't involved. Kind of the people who don't like 6DOIT saying "with KM this would have never happened, this is the worst thing ever!!".

On the attitude thing, I think, at least as far as JLB is concerned, DT actually won, it's been a while since I've seen James so comfortable on record or on stage. ToT is amazing as a metal album when I'm in the mood for it, and the same goes to almost every DT album, and I actually like the raping on Honor Thy Father, although I dislike the cookie monster vocals on Nightmare to Remember. So, while some of MP contributions where awesome, others were... well... not so welcomed :lol, A for effort, but try again :P. And pushing James down to the point of completely ignoring your own singer and whether he is ok with something or not wasn't on the band best benefit I think.

I don't think the band is staler than it was with the last two MP albums, or the last three for that matter, every DT album from Scenes onward had something different to offer, but each one of them had slightly less than the one before it, and I think while that was more evident than ever on ADTOE, I think there is a little more diversity in this album and is a slight step forward. The first time I heard BC&SL I was still pretty new to DT, and I was still able to anticipate what was going to happen on most of the songs on first listen, the same happend with ADTOE for most part. This record, on the other hand, while it didn't have the Six Degrees amount of surprise(not even in the same Zip code), at least the songs evolved differently than what I was anticipating, and I find most of them growing on me with each listen. The lyrics, IMHO, were a HUGE improvement from BC&SL(and SC but that actually comes if you like the fantasy lyrics or not as they are, for most part, pretty well written).

So while I'm not naive enough to think that we will se the old DT reinventing themselves as dramatically as in the 90`s-early '00, I think there's still hope for some evolution in the band sound. Would it be more if MP stayed in the band? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know anyway. As I recall the first one I heard saying "we don't want to stay away from our sound" sort of thing was MP himself on Riding the Train of Thought, so I still don't think it would have made THAT much difference.


(Oh and btw, I really like SC when I'm in the mood for it, it isn't among my favourite albums, but when it is, it RAWWWWKS  :metal)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
Top 4:
1. Images and Words
2. Awake
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Scenes from a Memory

Bottom 4:
09. Systematic Chaos
10. Dream Theater
11. When Dream and Day Unite
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

To me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

ADTOE was really safe too, but I like that one a lot, probably because it reminds me a lot of Images :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 13, 2014, 01:20:02 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
o me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

I feel like the "DT being safe" argument gets thrown around a lot without further elaboration on why that is so. I mean, does it refer to DT resorting to a traditional DT sound?  :justjen

DT has run the gamut of styles at this point, at least with respect to progressive rock and metal. There honestly isn't one signature DT sound because every album is different than the next. The two most similar I'd have to say would be, admittedly, SC and BC&SL. But if so much as making one album out of a 12 album discography similar to one other constitutes as playing it safe, then I'm at a loss here. :lol

My issue with some of the sounds isn't necessarily how original or new or inventive each album is, but how well they execute whatever style they were going for. Black Clouds may not be my favorite DT album, but when you get down to get, there's a lot of good stuff in it for lack of better words, and to my ears, DT12 still sounds fresh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on February 13, 2014, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 13, 2014, 12:13:26 PM
Top 4:
1. Images and Words
2. Awake
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Scenes from a Memory

Bottom 4:
09. Systematic Chaos
10. Dream Theater
11. When Dream and Day Unite
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

To me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

ADTOE was really safe too, but I like that one a lot, probably because it reminds me a lot of Images :D
This is pretty much exactly how I feel. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 13, 2014, 03:20:28 PM
For me, Images and Words is a mid-tier DT album. The mediocrity of Another Day, Take The Time and UAGM really drags it down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 13, 2014, 03:45:51 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 13, 2014, 03:20:28 PM
For me, Images and Words is a mid-tier DT album. The mediocrity of Another Day, Take The Time and UAGM really drags it down.

(https://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa383/TisBOOLsheet/jpg/not-sure-if-serious.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 13, 2014, 04:25:10 PM
Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on February 13, 2014, 04:36:11 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 13, 2014, 04:25:10 PM
Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.

IF you don't love Surrounded, we must immediately begin impeachment proceedings...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: commanderbob on February 13, 2014, 04:46:29 PM
Here we go:

DT12 is not only my favorite DT album, but one of my top 5 rock albums ever.

My other 4, in case your interested are, in no particular order:

Awake, Radiohead - OK Computer, Muse - Absolution, Tool - Aenima
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 13, 2014, 05:14:10 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 13, 2014, 04:25:10 PM
Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.

You don't like Take the Time?  I knew you didn't like Another Day or Surrounded, but I thought you liked the rest of the album. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 13, 2014, 06:03:29 PM
Quote from: commanderbob on February 13, 2014, 04:46:29 PM
Here we go:

DT12 is not only my favorite DT album, but one of my top 5 rock albums ever.

My other 4, in case your interested are, in no particular order:

Awake, Radiohead - OK Computer, Muse - Absolution, Tool - Aenima

Muse is one band whose appeal I just do not get.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 06:45:22 PM
I wouldn't put Muse anywhere near my "top albums ever", but they have cool enough songs, but the lyrics(among other things) prevents them to reach another level. It's a good band though, especially their 2nd to 4th albums.

Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it :hat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 13, 2014, 06:51:01 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 06:45:22 PM
Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it :hat.
My turn: TtT is the worst I&W song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 06:57:28 PM
Quote from: Grizz on February 13, 2014, 06:51:01 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 06:45:22 PM
Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it :hat.
My turn: TtT is the worst I&W song.

Which still makes it better than 99.99% of songs in existence  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:06:44 PM
Edit: Never mind.  :blush


Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on February 13, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:06:44 PM
Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away. ;)
Light Fuse and Get Away isn't on Images & Words though
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 07:14:22 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:06:44 PM
Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away. ;)


Not sure I get your point -  btw I was going to run those 9's to infinity but decided to be a bit sensible  :D 

I was referring to the post I quoted which talked of the worst song on I&W only , so I really wasn't referencing the whole DT catalogue.   What I was saying was that the worst track on I&W is still  better than just about anything else in general (or from DT IMHO)

I agree that the worst DT song would certainly not be from I&W .    In order to decide my worst DT song I'd have to listen to all the CDs I hardly ever bother with (aside from selected favourites) and do it back to back  :-[   Think I'll pass.  ;D    I can guarantee it would be from one of SC, ToT, BCSL or SDOIT disc one but other than that I'm not sure. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 07:25:15 PM
No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT  ;D    I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.
Just when I thought we could get along...

Burning My Soul isn't nearly as bad people make it to be, except for the infamous "But I don't give a shit, NOOOOOOO" which must be on most people Top 50 worst DT moments, but there's no way it's the 5th of FII for me, it's the 2nd worst on the album after That-Song-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named.

Your opinion on SDOIT doesn't shock me since I already read your Top 50, but let's just say I strongly disagree on most of your resons ;D. I couldn't get into the first disc on 6DOIT for years, until 2 or 3 months ago, when it all clicked me somehow. (By the way, have you heard the single-edit for Misunderstood? If I'm not misremembering the outro was the thing you didn't like, so this version maybe improves your view on the song :P)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 07:25:15 PM
No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT  ;D    I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day  :laugh:

:)

Quote from: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.
Just when I thought we could get along...

Burning My Soul isn't nearly as bad people make it to be, except for the infamous "But I don't give a shit, NOOOOOOO" which must be on most people Top 50 worst DT moments, but there's no way it's the 5th of FII for me, it's the 2nd worst on the album after That-Song-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named.

Your opinion on SDOIT doesn't shock me since I already read your Top 50, but let's just say I strongly disagree on most of your resons ;D. I couldn't get into the first disc on 6DOIT for years, until 2 or 3 months ago, when it all clicked me somehow. (By the way, have you heard the single-edit for Misunderstood? If I'm not misremembering the outro was the thing you didn't like, so this version maybe improves your view on the song :P)

You Not Me? That one is as good as or better than Peruvian Skies. :P

The single version vs. album version is pretty much a wash for me. I'd probably take the single version because it does lack the outro, but it loses so much of the excellent buildup that the album version has. That buildup is most of what I ever listened to Misunderstood for anyway, so I don't really ever have the urge listen to the single version. Perhaps someday, I will edit the album version so that the outro is replaced by the end of the song on the single edit, and then I could have a version of the song that I could love. However, first I will have to get time to make such an edit, and it is definitely behind making an edit for Nightwish's Song of Myself to remove some of the spoken-word stuff that I don't particularly care for in my queue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 07:45:04 PM
No way!! I actually tried really hard to like You Not Me so that it doesn't ruin my 1st or 2nd favourite album, but there's no way... the Bon Jovi chorus kills it for me. It has some cool moments, but it's lame as a whole.

I think there was actually a version of the whole song without the outro but I don't know where it was or even if it was fan-made or band-made... I like it as it is though, the weirdo outro makes for a perfect entrance to The Great Debate :metal.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 13, 2014, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 07:25:15 PM
No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT  ;D    I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day  :laugh:

Normally, it's people who worship Awake that don't like SDOIT very much (or vice-versa)  :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 13, 2014, 07:54:51 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 13, 2014, 07:51:55 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on February 13, 2014, 07:25:15 PM
No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT  ;D    I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day  :laugh:

Normally, people who worship Awake don't like SDOIT very much (or vice-versa)  :corn

I think both are fairly overrated, though I think Awake is by far the better album. I worship Images, Scenes and Octavarium myself.


Quote from: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 07:45:04 PM
No way!! I actually tried really hard to like You Not Me so that it doesn't ruin my 1st or 2nd favourite album, but there's no way... the Bon Jovi chorus kills it for me. It has some cool moments, but it's lame as a whole.

I think there was actually a version of the whole song without the outro but I don't know where it was or even if it was fan-made or band-made... I like it as it is though, the weirdo outro makes for a perfect entrance to The Great Debate :metal.



Hey, if you don't like it, that's alright. I'm okay. It happens every single day. It's all the same. But I'm not blind.

IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU

NOT ME

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE EXPECTING ME TO BE

It's actually a fun pop-rock song, IMO. I don't really know that much what Bon Jovi sounds like, but I like the chorus to YNM well enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 07:59:33 PM
 :rollin

Yeah, it's a pop song, but pretty lame, and I like pop. I'm actually a HUGE U2 fan, way before I even knew Dream Theater, but things like these make me cringe anyway.

I worship both Awake and SDOIT, the former was love at first sight, the latter took a loooooong time to grew on me, so I completely understand people not being into it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 13, 2014, 08:06:42 PM
I'm not saying it's a great pop song or that it should have been a hit or that I listen to it much, but it has a catchy chorus, which is pretty much all I ask of the typical pop song. And there's nothing in the instrumentation that bores me or drags it down too much. Peruvian Skies, on the other hand, just plods for me.

Since you say you're a U2 fan, I'd be interested in your perspective on I Walk Beside You and To Live Forever, the DT songs that are often considered to sound most like U2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 08:34:00 PM
I agree that Peruvian Skies takes its time to build up, but I think it's a really good song, although I only listen to it when I listen to the whole album. I actually like the way it transition from a Floyd-ish feel to full on metal with JP solo as a bridge. It's not awesome but it's a good solid track.

I Walk Beside You is a nice uplifting song, more in tune to the modern U2, from All That You Can't Leave Behind onwards, but since I'm not that big of a fan of anything they did after that, I Walk Beside You doesn't have nothing very special to me. It is however, and like I said on The Looking Glass, a welcome addition to their catalog, and it works really well in the album, which is another of my favourites of DT. If Falling Into Infinty is the one that got me interested in DT, Octavarium was the album that brought me back after 3 years of ignoring anything post Scenes From A Memory. So all in all, a good song, nothing more but nothing less.

To Live Forever is awesome though, more in line of The Joshua Tree U2, and actually takes the U2 sound to the level of that band itself never could, as they are very limited musicians. I absolutely love the way each section transitions to the next, and how, despite its pop factor, remains progressive all the way through, and of course the very tasteful guitar work of JP. I prefer the '91 version, but the '94 version has that extra verse so it's kind of a tough call :P. Had it make it to Images & Words it would elevate the already awesome album to another level, too bad it wasn't included :(. The live version they did on the last tour is also top notch(I found it on the Christmas release), I love how they start jamming into it :hefdaddy.

However my personal favourite U2ish song is The Way It Used To Be, which add some Floyd-ish flavour that makes it even better. Another song that starts like a regular poppy tune and evolves in a completely unexpected way. It's maybe the DT track I've listened to the most, if that says anything of how I love the song :biggrin:. A crime not to have it included >:(. Speak To Me is another personal favourite of mine which also has a U2ish vibe, simple yet beautiful sort of ballad.

So yeah, I love when DT goes U2, they take that style to a level the U2 could never get because, let's face it, when it comes to skills and musicianship they are somewhat limited :P.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 13, 2014, 08:53:56 PM
You Not Me sucked with or without Desmond Child. The final version has a slight edge for having a catchy chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Grizz on February 13, 2014, 08:53:56 PM
You Not Me sucked with or without Desmond Child.
THAT I actually agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 13, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
This may be controversial, but: I don't hear any Tool influence on ToT or 6DoIT. I wish I did though.

And I was just listening to SC. It's really not as 'not good' as I often hear said. There is some really awesome heavy riffage. The Dark Eternal Night is pretty kickass. But only at first, because it eventually falls into the wankery trap of so many DT songs. I mean seriously, why do they feel the need to do that so often? TDET is just one of many songs that could have been career highlights if they had just decided to not masturbate with their keyboards and guitars after performing awesomeness in the first few minutes.

So I don't think SC is amazing. I don't think any of their last 3 or 4 albums even came close to amazing. 8VM had a few amazing songs: These Walls, IWBS, Panic Attack. Title track was good though, I love the way it builts to the ending climiax; I do think the idea of doing that may have come from the song Lateralus, of course it sounds nothing like it though.

And FIF is not as terrible as people think. When I first got it I really enjoyed a lot of it. But that was before I got into 6DoIT, 8VM, Awake. Now when I listen to the album it just lack depth. But it's not terrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 13, 2014, 10:58:07 PM
I've never heard TOT compared to Tool, actually.

And I think you'll find that there's a number of people here who think very highly of FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 13, 2014, 11:32:09 PM
The Tool influence I hear is in The Great Debate on 6DOIT, the strongest/borderline rip-off is on the intro and beginning of Home that they borrowed from 46 & 2 and mayyyyyybe(big maybe) the first vocal lines of Honor Thy Father.

And yep, The Dark Eternal Night instrumental is kind of pointless, but then again, the middle section of Metropolis is kind of pointless in the very same way so... :biggrin: On TDEN, maybe they thought if they didn't add something it would be to much of a straight metal song with no depth, that's all I can come up in it's defence. It's not among my favourites anyway, but it must be fun to hear live and chanting that silly chorus I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 13, 2014, 11:39:04 PM
The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on February 13, 2014, 11:47:25 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 13, 2014, 11:39:04 PM
The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

I agree with this. I love TDEN's instrumental section. It's what saves the song from being bottom tier for me personally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 14, 2014, 12:28:29 AM
A lot of people ToT was Tool influenced and spawned from MPs admiration for Tools music. It's a very heavy and dark album, but I find nothing like Tool. Long songs, but DT always has that, and heavy, but also completely different from the style of music Tool make.

The instrumental sections of many of their songs are pointless. There are a LOT of DT songs that I feel are ruined by instrumental 'wankery', as they say. Honor Thy Father is almost completely destroyed by the insturmental section, but the first few minutes are just too awesome.

I feel the the first few minutes of Honor Thy Father is some of the best DT has ever done. I would love to see them do more stuff in that direction. I also really love the guitar sound of Dark Eternal Night (at least the first few minutes). I love that heavy, down-tuned guitar sound. These two songs are very dark sounding. I wish they would do another album with a very dark atmosphere, in the style of what i was saying about these songs. A man can dream.....

 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 14, 2014, 01:21:33 AM
Always liked Honor Thy Father and the second half of the song doesn't bother me at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rude boy on February 14, 2014, 02:26:49 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 14, 2014, 01:21:33 AM
Always liked Honor Thy Father and the second half of the song doesn't bother me at all.

I second that. And I do not understand the hate for You Not Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 14, 2014, 03:38:31 AM
Quote from: rude boy on February 14, 2014, 02:26:49 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 14, 2014, 01:21:33 AM
Always liked Honor Thy Father and the second half of the song doesn't bother me at all.

I second that. And I do not understand the hate for You Not Me.
TRVVV.. Everything on FII is flawless!   YOu not Me  is a catchy fucking song!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 03:45:17 AM
Quote from: adastra on February 14, 2014, 03:38:31 AM
Quote from: rude boy on February 14, 2014, 02:26:49 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 14, 2014, 01:21:33 AM
Always liked Honor Thy Father and the second half of the song doesn't bother me at all.

I second that. And I do not understand the hate for You Not Me.
TRVVV.. Everything on FII is flawless!   YOu not Me  is a catchy fucking song!  ;D

You know what else is catchy? HERPES!




Sorry, couldn't help it. :P
I love everything on FII except for YNM. It's nowhere near as bad as its legacy would indicate, as it's far too unremarkable to be hate-worthy, but I don't think there's anything really good about it either. It's a slight improvement over YOM though, but not by much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 05:00:33 AM
I'd rather listen to You Not Me than Take The Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 05:06:16 AM
What's not to like about Take The Time? To me that song is pure DT perfection.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 05:10:26 AM
The annoying sounds KM uses like all the way through the song...
I'm not a big fan of Petrucci's riffs and the vocal melodies are just awful, especially in the chorus.
The best part of the song is by far the instrumental section, but it's still kind of meh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 05:12:11 AM
Well you lost me on all of that, so we'll just have to agree to very strongly disagree. :lol Easily a top 5 DT song for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 14, 2014, 06:09:02 AM
Quote from: NotePad on February 14, 2014, 12:28:29 AM
The instrumental sections of many of their songs are pointless. There are a LOT of DT songs that I feel are ruined by instrumental 'wankery', as they say. Honor Thy Father is almost completely destroyed by the insturmental section, but the first few minutes are just too awesome.

This type of statement confuses me. This has never been not a major component of DT's sound. It's not like DT decided halfway through their career to give every song a four minute instrumental section. They've been doing it since at least the Images and Words days. I hate to be the first to frame it this way, but maybe DT isn't what you're looking for in music if you think that instrumental sections ruin songs? Because asking DT to stop making long instrumental sections is like asking James Hetfield not to sing so loudly.

And oftentimes, the instrumental is actually the best part (or one of them) of a DT song. Metropolis, Learning to Live, Beyond This Life, Blind Faith, Endless Sacrifice, Never Enough, Octavarium, The Dark Eternal Night, Illumination Theory. The Dark Eternal Night, for one example, would be rather generic metal song without the instrumental section. I can understand why someone would just want the instrumental or why someone would dislike the whole thing, but I simply do not understand why a Dream Theater fan would want to keep the first part but dump the instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on February 14, 2014, 06:21:56 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 05:10:26 AM
The annoying sounds KM uses like all the way through the song...
I'm not a big fan of Petrucci's riffs and the vocal melodies are just awful, especially in the chorus.
The best part of the song is by far the instrumental section, but it's still kind of meh.

I agree. Never got what's so great about Take The Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 14, 2014, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 05:06:16 AM
What's not to like about Take The Time? To me that song is pure DT perfection.

Boring riffing... Mediocre vocals.. 
"Not-very-imaginative"-Drumming.
Not very cool solos..
Bad haircuts..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 07:06:18 AM
Quote from: adastra on February 14, 2014, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 05:06:16 AM
What's not to like about Take The Time? To me that song is pure DT perfection.

Boring riffing... Mediocre vocals.. 
"Not-very-imaginative"-Drumming.
Not very cool solos..

.......are all things Take The Time doesn't have?
It has the grooviest bass riff DT has ever done, along with awesome metal and funky riffs from JP. And if those vocals are mediocre, then every other vocal JLB has done must be terrible. :P It also has one of DT's best unisons, two awesome keyboard solos (counting the intro), and an epic as hell outro guitar solo from JP.

I advise you refund and replace your copy of IaW. I'm pretty sure you must have gotten the misprint with Back in Black on it instead. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on February 14, 2014, 07:26:22 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tbdDTXjwtmo/TeFFMiLvefI/AAAAAAAADak/BYfNQhvPzeU/s1600/DontFeedTheTrolls.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:29:17 AM
If I was trying to troll, I could do much better honestly.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Take the Time is one of my favorite songs ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 14, 2014, 09:20:21 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Take the Time is one of my favorite songs ever.

I don't think that's controversial. TTT is always a fan favorite.

Although I think TTT is the least awesome song on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 14, 2014, 10:54:21 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.

You want to cut a half a minute from the end of me?  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 12:48:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.

TGP is perfect the way it is. No please.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 14, 2014, 09:20:21 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Take the Time is one of my favorite songs ever.

I don't think that's controversial. TTT is always a fan favorite.

Although I think TTT is the least awesome song on I&W.

I wasn't really going for controversial, just sort of weighing in on the discussion between Blob and jake.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 14, 2014, 01:10:32 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.

 :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 14, 2014, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 14, 2014, 12:28:29 AM
Honor Thy Father is almost completely destroyed by the insturmental section, but the first few minutes are just too awesome.

I feel the the first few minutes of Honor Thy Father is some of the best DT has ever done. I would love to see them do more stuff in that direction.

Well I love to see appreciation for HTF because it's one of my favorite DT songs, and is also responsible for getting me hooked on the band back in 04. But I have to wholeheartedly disagree that the instrumental section destroys the song, I think it's the ultimate climax after building up to that point. I still get goosebumps listening to that JP riff that builds up during the samples and when the keyboard solo kicks in.. spooky. I normally always feel something from that passage, it's epic.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 14, 2014, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 14, 2014, 09:20:21 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Take the Time is one of my favorite songs ever.

I don't think that's controversial. TTT is always a fan favorite.

Although I think TTT is the least awesome song on I&W.

I wasn't really going for controversial, just sort of weighing in on the discussion between Blob and jake.  :)

Jaffa, stop responding and say something dumb like most are saying about TTT.  Geeeeesh! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on February 14, 2014, 04:07:48 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.

The riff-o-rama section?  If so I agree.  There are lots of great riffs.  I like the section a lot.  I just wish the structure was more concise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 04:09:04 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 14, 2014, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 14, 2014, 09:20:21 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 14, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Take the Time is one of my favorite songs ever.

I don't think that's controversial. TTT is always a fan favorite.

Although I think TTT is the least awesome song on I&W.

I wasn't really going for controversial, just sort of weighing in on the discussion between Blob and jake.  :)

Jaffa, stop responding and say something dumb like most are saying about TTT.  Geeeeesh! :lol

I don't think I could possibly say anything as dumb as what some people are saying about TTT.  :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 14, 2014, 04:15:40 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 14, 2014, 04:07:48 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.

The riff-o-rama section?  If so I agree.  There are lots of great riffs.  I like the section a lot.  I just wish the structure was more concise.

I appologise for speaking for someone else but I have a feeling he doesn't mean the' riff-o-rama section'. In fact that's probably widely considered to be one of the best parts of the song.. I think he means the rush-esque final vocal outro section or whatever you wanna call it. It feels like a bit of an anti-climax but at least we can transition into This Dying Soul to maintain the momentum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 14, 2014, 06:47:13 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 12:48:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 14, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Maybe not too controversial, but probably a solid half a minute could have been cut from the end of TGP without hurting the song in any way or fashion.

TGP is perfect the way it is. No please.

That.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nicmos on February 14, 2014, 06:50:15 PM
The quality of the arrangements in Symphonic Theater of Dreams is better than the orchestral section of Illumination Theory.  By a lot.  They should have used Mierzejewski on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on February 14, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.
Hey.
Get out.
Thanks  :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 06:34:41 AM
Quote from: Parama on February 14, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.
Hey.
Get out.
Thanks  :heart

No. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 06:59:26 AM
TLG is the second best song on DT12 and EM is much better than most give it credit for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on February 15, 2014, 07:36:38 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 06:59:26 AM
EM is much better than most give it credit for.

Yep, it's not quite on the same level as Overture 1928, TDOE and SOC, but still a great and extremely fun song :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 07:46:19 AM
Quote from: aprilethereal on February 15, 2014, 07:36:38 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 06:59:26 AM
EM is much better than most give it credit for.

Yep, it's not quite on the same level as Overture 1928, TDOE and SOC, but still a great and extremely fun song :metal

You nailed it, it is an extremely FUN song. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 08:06:57 AM
SO. FUN. LIVE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 10:32:37 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 07:46:19 AM
You nailed it, it is an extremely FUN song.
Because... There's something wrong with that?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 10:35:22 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 10:32:37 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 07:46:19 AM
You nailed it, it is an extremely FUN song.
Because... There's something wrong with that?

Not at all.  I like the fact that it rocks and just feels like a fun song.  Good to drive to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 10:54:05 AM
All right. Because I have heard statements in the past like, "Systematic Chaos is a lot of fun, but there's not a lot of depth to it, so I don't like it."  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 10:54:05 AM
All right. Because I have heard statements in the past like, "Systematic Chaos is a lot of fun, but there's not a lot of depth to it, so I don't like it."  ::)

Funny you should mention SC.  I put it on while working out last night and forgot how much really good music there is on SC.  I would go as far as to say at this point, it is underrated by most DT fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 11:06:34 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on February 15, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
it is underrated by most DT fans.

Absolutely.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 15, 2014, 11:29:14 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

100%. General forum opinion will sometimes make me think twice about it, but when I come back to listen to it, I think "Nah, this is pretty good".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
I enjoy SC more than I&W.  :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 11:30:57 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 15, 2014, 11:29:14 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

100%. General forum opinion will sometimes make me think twice about it, but when I come back to listen to it, I think "Nah, this is pretty good".
Good man, don't let general forum opinion influence your own opinion.

Quote from: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
I enjoy SC more than I&W.  :corn

:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on February 15, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
The forum has actually made me appreciate SC more than I used to. It's still my least favorite DT album but I used to dislike it a lot more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 11:44:28 AM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on February 15, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
The forum has actually made me appreciate SC more than I used to. It's still my least favorite DT album but I used to dislike it a lot more.

I can't imagine how. Most people here make it a point to crap on SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on February 15, 2014, 12:01:43 PM
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 12:05:49 PM
Wouldn't it be so delightful if this forum ended up being filled with SC supporters? I'd be very happy about that!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 12:30:09 PM
Whilst SC is in my bottom 3 albums, it's there because the other 9 I just prefer to it. It's a good album nonetheless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 15, 2014, 04:18:18 PM
Both New Millennium and Under a Glass Moon have great melodies, but are so boring.
Another World's original lyrics are, at least in part, more emotionally powerful.
Kevin Moore needs to get laid or something. His lyrics, while poetic, make me want to kill myself. It's like hanging around Marvin the Paranoid Android all the time.
The Count of Tuscany is god,  and Black Clouds kicks ass
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 04:38:58 PM
Quote from: Grizz on February 15, 2014, 04:18:18 PM

Another World's original lyrics are, at least in part, more emotionally powerful.

I really don't understand this sentence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
I presume he means Another Day. ... I think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 15, 2014, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: Grizz on February 15, 2014, 04:18:18 PM
Kevin Moore needs to get laid or something. His lyrics, while poetic, make me want to kill myself. It's like hanging around Marvin the Paranoid Android all the time.
:lol

I like SC a lot, I prefer other albums, but it has the uniqueness of being heavy while remaining very dynamic and not sludgy and somehow tiring like Train of Thought, which I also like but it feels sometimes too... dense to put it in a way. In that aspect Systematic Chaos is something I prefer when going for a heavy album. My only complaint is splitting ITPOE, as I like it more together. I chance the tracks to start off with either Forsaken or Constant Motion, and have all ITPOE at the end, makes for a much more enjoyable listen. I don't understand the hate for it anyway.

Oh, and by Another World I'm think he means the A Change of Seasons section, not Another Day. I don't agree BTW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on February 15, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 12:30:09 PM
Whilst SC is in my bottom 3 albums, it's there because the other 9 I just prefer to it. It's a good album nonetheless.

^ This

It, along with BC&SL (as they are often grouped together), are great albums on their own, but I just prefer some of their other albums to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 15, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 15, 2014, 04:45:36 PM
Oh, and by Another World I'm think he means the A Change of Seasons section, not Another Day.
Yeah this. I think that Another World '89 has a totally different theme to it from the lyrics that I can make out
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LTE3 on February 15, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
I enjoy SC more than I&W.  :corn

 :omg: You must be a youngin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: snapple on February 15, 2014, 09:28:35 PM
This is 107 pages?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 15, 2014, 09:45:18 PM
No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 09:54:44 PM
Your eyes are only misleading you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 15, 2014, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on February 15, 2014, 10:42:22 PM
SC is one of the best albums in music history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 15, 2014, 11:02:50 PM
(https://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/Whoa+just+take+it+easy+man+_e5deda70bd2d9fce029281f6819c9e8c.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 15, 2014, 11:11:24 PM
Let's calm down now!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 15, 2014, 11:25:19 PM
Quote from: LTE3 on February 15, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 15, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
I enjoy SC more than I&W.  :corn

 :omg: You must be a youngin
Yes, that would mean he hasn't lost his hearing yet.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 16, 2014, 01:48:52 AM
Quote from: Grizz on February 15, 2014, 04:18:18 PM
Kevin Moore needs to get laid or something. His lyrics, while poetic, make me want to kill myself. It's like hanging around Marvin the Paranoid Android all the time.
:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 06:28:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 15, 2014, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.
Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 16, 2014, 07:24:38 AM
Hey look, a robwebster post!  Always a great way to start my day.   :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Fisi on February 16, 2014, 07:32:13 AM
Jordan should use his iOS devices and other gadgets more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 16, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 06:28:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 15, 2014, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.
Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.

No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 16, 2014, 08:12:50 AM
TDEN instead of Take The Time would have made the album miles better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 08:13:13 AM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on February 16, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 06:28:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 15, 2014, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on February 15, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
SC is totally underrated.

+1

I rate it closer to the bottom of their discography just because they have a lot of amazing albums I love more, but SC deserves more cred than it gets.
Systematic Chaos is wonderful. I don't like the structure, I think it loses steam as it carries on, but I think the playful songwriter thing suits the band so much better than the tortured poet thing. It's something their later output is criticised for, but I think a lot of the stuff they've written since Jordan joined is a band that's mature and confident enough that it knows it doesn't have to make every song into a mission. You'd never have got The Dark Eternal Night on Images and Words, and while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way. SC was never going to be popular on initial release - a new album's expected to be all things to all people, and in aiming for a single niche, Systematic Chaos didn't accomplish that - but I hope, with time, more of us start warming to it.

No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.
Or, in other words - "while IaW's an absolute gem, I think their range has expanded in an admirable way."

(Frankly, TDEN would have changed the living fuck out of the genre if it happened in 1992, but that's aside the point!)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 16, 2014, 08:21:02 AM
Just imagine how I&W would sound if it had TDEN on it.

Another Day fades out... and then... BAM

HEAVY AS ALL LIVING SHIT RIFFAGE

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 16, 2014, 08:29:56 AM
I never thought Systematic Chaos was bad, but it does contain their worst song, Prophets of War. SC is still better than BCSL, but I'd rather listen to The Count of Tuscany than anything on SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 08:41:12 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 16, 2014, 08:21:02 AM
Just imagine how I&W would sound if it had TDEN on it.

Another Day fades out... and then... BAM

HEAVY AS ALL LIVING SHIT RIFFAGE
Not Another Day, but The Dark Eternal Night went back to back with Images and Words on the Chaos in Motion tour, and it was glorious.

"Tonight I'll still be lying here, surrounded... in all... the light..."

NANANURR. NANA DUNANANA DUNANANA NANANURR.

I'm being flippant, but they were genuinely brilliant together. Both excellent songs, and the contrast was incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sketchy on February 16, 2014, 09:22:58 AM
... Damnit Robwester, that would have been amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The King in Crimson on February 16, 2014, 09:50:31 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 16, 2014, 08:12:50 AM
TDEN instead of Take The Time would have made the album miles better.
Take The Time is their best song so no.  :P

TDEN is pretty awesome though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 16, 2014, 12:29:31 PM
When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 16, 2014, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 13, 2014, 11:39:04 PM
The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos :lol, and I don't see how it is not wanky.

Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.

 :eek :eek :eek :eek

There really should be a rule about posting while drunk. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tim van Duijn on February 16, 2014, 12:39:55 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 16, 2014, 12:29:31 PM
When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

I get what you mean. Most of the time the instrumental sections are telling a stort. For example: The Dance of Eternity is a instrumental song but it is definitely telling a story, if you know the concept of the album that is. The instrumental part in Octavarium is also telling a story. Instrumental sections in In The Presence of Enemies, A Change of Seasons, Illumination Theory and The Count of Tuscany (especially this one!) are also telling a story. It is their way to drag you into the concept of the song and creating an amazing atmosphere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 16, 2014, 12:47:26 PM
I wish MP and now MM would be more different with they're sound/style. I know about the odd time signatures and all that, I also don't know much about those kind of things. Danny Carey is probably my favorite drummer becuase he does some cool things and comes up with awesome sounds. His drumming on Right In Two, Reflection, Intension- so great and beautiful to hear. I sometimes wish the drummers in DT did more things like that. Danny Carey is one of the few drummers I love listening to, and listen specifically for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 16, 2014, 12:50:55 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on February 16, 2014, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 14, 2014, 07:15:58 AM
Take The Time has probably the worst keyboard solos on any DT song... god bless AROP compared to the solo sound KM uses.

 :eek :eek :eek :eek

There really should be a rule about posting while drunk. :lol

I wasn't even drunk dude. Words cannot summarize how much I dislike KM's parts in Take The Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on February 16, 2014, 03:18:22 PM
I love the keyboard in TtT, very catchy and memorable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on February 16, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
No you wouldn't have. You got an album of now classic songs that changed the genre, instead. Thank the good Lord we didn't get TDEN on I&W.

Definitely  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 16, 2014, 04:19:23 PM
JR must have been high when we made the Bebot solo in A Rite of Passage.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fibreoptix on February 16, 2014, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 16, 2014, 08:41:12 AM
Not Another Day, but The Dark Eternal Night went back to back with Images and Words on the Chaos in Motion tour, and it was glorious.

"Tonight I'll still be lying here, surrounded... in all... the light..."

NANANURR. NANA DUNANANA DUNANANA NANANURR.

I'm being flippant, but they were genuinely brilliant together. Both excellent songs, and the contrast was incredible.

Speaking of opinions… before you just vanished I was quite interested to hear your thoughts on DT12. Care to plop 'em somewhere? In your own time of course. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 16, 2014, 06:56:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on February 16, 2014, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 13, 2014, 11:39:04 PM
The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos :lol, and I don't see how it is not wanky.


I do think it's wanky (in a good way that fits that song), although I don't really think of that as part of that instrumental section, just because it's not contiguous with that big block of whole band instrumental arrangement.

I'm not arguing that it's not part of the instrumental section, so if it makes you happier, I'll revise it to "two and a half minutes of no wanky solos at all and then an awesome wanky solo". :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 16, 2014, 07:02:36 PM
Blob,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGhVkQ7qzA
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 16, 2014, 12:29:31 PM
When I criticize DT for their instrumentals often being too long or bringing the song to places that don't fit the rest of the song, the common response is for people to tell me I shouldnt listen to DT and maybe they're not the band for me. But the thing is, I really enjoy DT. Maybe not as much as I used to because each new release IMHO never sounds to go anyplace new, but I still like a lot of their stuff. They're also the type of band that makes music that requires repeat listens at first to get really into.

I don't hate their instrumental sections, but as Iv said in the past, a lot of them take me out of the song and have a totally different vibe then the rest. Honor Thy Father, despite the instrumental sections, is awesome.

Musically SFAM is a continuation of what they were doing on I&W, for the most part. And honestly, they're 2 of my least favorite DT albums. I like them, and both have a few really great songs, but overall....meh. SFAM has a cool rock/metal opera feel to it. This is one of the reasons I can't listen to it as often, I really have to be in the mood for it. And I do love the ambition of it, especially after FII.

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 16, 2014, 09:08:14 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

While I could argue that you could just take those songs, rip them from the CD onto your computer or MP3 player and just listen to them, I will say that how much I listen to a song doesn't equate at all to how much I like it.

I think SFAM is the holy grail of all music albums everywhere, I worship it. But I will admit, at one point, I had overplayed it for myself, so now, I only listen to it on special occasions, when I can give it the proper attention it deserves. That doesn't make it and less highly regarded by me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 16, 2014, 09:21:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 16, 2014, 09:08:14 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

While I could argue that you could just take those songs, rip them from the CD onto your computer or MP3 player and just listen to them, I will say that how much I listen to a song doesn't equate at all to how much I like it.

I think SFAM is the holy grail of all music albums everywhere, I worship it. But I will admit, at one point, I had overplayed it for myself, so now, I only listen to it on special occasions, when I can give it the proper attention it deserves. That doesn't make it and less highly regarded by me.

I agree, how often you listen to something doesn't always correlate with how much you actually enjoy it. I feel the same way towards SFAM cause it works so much better as a whole but is also massive in scope so it requires time to really appreciate it fully, though from time to time I will go back and listen to some of its individual songs.

The same could be applied to most of my favorite albums, as well as how even though I may love it to death, I might overplay it for myself. Only on very rare occasions does that not apply.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 16, 2014, 11:50:35 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 16, 2014, 06:56:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on February 16, 2014, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 13, 2014, 11:39:04 PM
The instrumental section of TDEN is one of their best ever. There are no wanky solos, no back to back shredding, and it's all well constructed and thought out so every instrument complements each other to form the whole section, rather than looping a riff and someone jamming over it later. A lot of playing around with the chromatic riffs, and creating variations with changing time signatures and shifting note. It's beautiful.
It doesn't surprise me that MM has mentioned this as one of his favourite MP songs to play, because the way it's constructed rhythmically seems like something he'd have fun playing.

You don't think JP's solo is wanky?

Granted, I think it is one of his better "hey, listen to me rape the shit out of my guitar" solos :lol, and I don't see how it is not wanky.


I do think it's wanky (in a good way that fits that song), although I don't really think of that as part of that instrumental section, just because it's not contiguous with that big block of whole band instrumental arrangement.

I'm not arguing that it's not part of the instrumental section, so if it makes you happier, I'll revise it to "two and a half minutes of no wanky solos at all and then an awesome wanky solo". :metal

That seems like a fair compromise. :biggrin: :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 02:10:10 AM
Dark Eternal Night is a great song. But it would be much better if the instrumental section was at least shortened. I love dark, angry DT.

Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

But like it said, I really like DT! But there are times, like the one's we've been discussing, where they lose me. They're the type of band that has a lot in their music, and a lot in each song even! They appeal to many, but also don't always appeal to everyone ;)

Like I'v said before, I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired. Sometimes when I listen to DT I wonder, did they get inspired by any particular idea or sound when they came up with this? Or did they just think, 'I'm gonna come up with a heavy riff', and start hammering away, then go, 'then we should break it down and go soft for a bit', then go, 'lets let loose here for a bit and go crazy and solo whatever', and do that for hours and hours and just compile it all together without ever really refining ideas and sounds and riffs into more specific styles, then go 'Great! Cool! Five 15 minutes epics!'

I swear, I'm not making fun of DT. I have huge respect for the band, especially John Petrucci. But I know they could do so much more and so much better if they created more songs that actually sound focused.

Just stirrin' the shit...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 17, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 17, 2014, 04:12:28 AM
Quote from: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 02:10:10 AM
Dark Eternal Night is a great song. But it would be much better if the instrumental section was at least shortened. I love dark, angry DT.

Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

But like it said, I really like DT! But there are times, like the one's we've been discussing, where they lose me. They're the type of band that has a lot in their music, and a lot in each song even! They appeal to many, but also don't always appeal to everyone ;)

Like I'v said before, I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired. Sometimes when I listen to DT I wonder, did they get inspired by any particular idea or sound when they came up with this? Or did they just think, 'I'm gonna come up with a heavy riff', and start hammering away, then go, 'then we should break it down and go soft for a bit', then go, 'lets let loose here for a bit and go crazy and solo whatever', and do that for hours and hours and just compile it all together without ever really refining ideas and sounds and riffs into more specific styles, then go 'Great! Cool! Five 15 minutes epics!'

I swear, I'm not making fun of DT. I have huge respect for the band, especially John Petrucci. But I know they could do so much more and so much better if they created more songs that actually sound focused.

Just stirrin' the shit...

Focused? What exactly do you mean by focused?

Octavarium and Illumination Theory, for example, are very long songs, but the instrumentals tell a story. Which is why they are long. Some are a bit wanky, but a lot of their albums have purposive instrumentals. I would not describe them as unfocused really. What example of songs would you say are unfocused?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 17, 2014, 04:26:19 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 17, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

Or for MM to play the tabla. That's the deal breaker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 17, 2014, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 17, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.
Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact :lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 17, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: Invisible on February 17, 2014, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 17, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.
Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact :lol.

DT is a progressive metal band. It's not that philosophical or complicated. The genre often includes influences from other styles. The fact that they wrote I Walk Beside You doesn't mean they are no longer only prog-metal and now partly a pop-rock band.  Those songs are the exception, rather than the rule.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 17, 2014, 11:12:19 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on February 17, 2014, 04:12:28 AM
Octavarium and Illumination Theory, for example, are very long songs, but the instrumentals tell a story. Which is why they are long. Some are a bit wanky, but a lot of their albums have purposive instrumentals. I would not describe them as unfocused really. What example of songs would you say are unfocused?

The Dance of Eternity
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 17, 2014, 12:22:21 PM
Quote from: fibreoptix on February 16, 2014, 05:01:59 PM
Speaking of opinions… before you just vanished I was quite interested to hear your thoughts on DT12. Care to plop 'em somewhere? In your own time of course. :)
"Speaking of opinions" is excellent. I'm going to use that for everything.

I was planning to do a big long review in collaboration with another member,  but it sort of fell by the wayside, so I don't think I'm going to go that route. I'm sure my views'll filter through before too long, but basically, highly favourable. I had two wishes going into this album: tighter songwriting, and some full-blown orchestral bits. Both came true, and both exceeded expectations. The new record is Dream Theater's strongest achievement as a group of songwriters, and a thirty-year old band has no right sounding so god damned relevant. Images and Words for the new millennium. Masterful.

It's funny, cos it was the least I've been hyped for a Dream Theater album - I was getting accustomed to the cycle, it was becoming a little routine - but it's probably transpired to be the album that most deserved that hype. It was never a conscious thought, I didn't actually realise until after the album was released, but there was a part of me that sort of figured the band had said more or less everything they needed to, figured that they'd keep making the kind of music I love but might've lost their ability to surprise me. I now know that's not even slightly the case. Possibly the most important DT album of the 21st century so far - it'll be interesting to see where they can go from here.

I don't know if that's controversial - I have no idea what the abiding opinion is - but if it is, I'm in the right thread! Speaking of opinions, what do you think of this dental floss? (https://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/wisdom-easy-floss-daily-flosser/prd-ma)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 17, 2014, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on February 17, 2014, 09:22:57 AM
Quote from: Invisible on February 17, 2014, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 17, 2014, 03:47:34 AM
A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.
Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact :lol.

DT is a progressive metal band. It's not that philosophical or complicated. The genre often includes influences from other styles. The fact that they wrote I Walk Beside You doesn't mean they are no longer only prog-metal and now partly a pop-rock band.  Those songs are the exception, rather than the rule.
Yep, I know that, the point I was kind of trying to make is that they became that way on their 5th album, before that they didn't really fit the genre, which was fine by me BTW. If someone told me that a band does Progresive Metal, WDADU and I&W would be about what I would expect, but not Awake or FII. My I guess controversial opinion is that I liked when DT wasn't a strictly progressive metal band, and I wish they'd tried again something a little bit different, that's all, and most importantly, by taking another route they wouldn't stop being DT, which was the reason I replied in the first place.

Not that I don't like this new album, I love it, and I put it on the Tier 2 along with ToT, Octavarium and SC, and above ADTOE and BC&SL(and of course WDADU which would be Tier 4 :P).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
DT is mainly metal. Iv heard people describe I&W as more progressive rock rather than progressive metal. Now that I think about it, I actually agree.

Awake one maybe the second or third DT album I heard. It took a little bit but it warmed up to me and now I say it's one of their best. After that I went and got I&W and wasn't a fan, and I never warmed up o it. I lik Pull me under, Surrounded, Wait For Sleep. The remaining songs are long songs that have moments I enjoy but mostly don't. I find it crazy how I can like Awake soo much and really not enjoy  Images.

I'd like to see another Awake but I highly doubt they could do Awake pt 2 even if they tried. But Images & Words had the style of music they've been doing most of their careers, except of course witn a more modern and heavy production.  Too me ADToE sounds very much like a new I&W, along with Scenes. These are albums Im not a huge fan of. There's just something about those albums that make them very similar. It might be an 'operatic' quality to the songs, and they have more of that classic 'proggy' sound to them, with odd insturmentation(make sense?) and tempo changes within the songs that sound more like classis Prog bands. Awake and 8VM, for example, are for the most part straight to the point and have a more 'modern' sound to their riffs, melodies etc. But this is just how I perceive it ;)

More opinions:
The 40 minute 6DoIT song suffers from sounding like just a bunch of 4 or 5 minute songs pasted together. This has a lot to do with the fact that each section is its own track, so iv always skipped ahead to certain sections. But even so, hearing it all start to finish reveals that that's just the nature of the song; it's just smaller songs pasted together with 2 bookends with a common theme/melody.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 17, 2014, 01:13:57 PM
Quote from: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 01:11:57 PM


More opinions:
The 40 minute 6DoIT song suffers from sounding like just a bunch of 4 or 5 minute songs pasted together. This has a lot to do with the fact that each section is its own track, so iv always skipped ahead to certain sections. But even so, hearing it all start to finish reveals that that's just the nature of the song; it's just smaller songs pasted together with 2 bookends with a common theme/melody.

I think a lot of us think that, so it is not that controversial.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 17, 2014, 03:03:29 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 16, 2014, 07:02:36 PM
Blob,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGhVkQ7qzA

Dude, I watched that just two days ago :lol

"Heeelloooooo sexy girlfriend ..... Banzai!!!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 17, 2014, 03:54:20 PM
 :lol :tup

A great date night movie!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 17, 2014, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

As much as I love OWNing the CD, but I do NOT like using them. Not only because handling the disc causes deterioration but, it's just a huge limitation (unless you've goin' for the full album spin). Once you've ripped the CD, digital music is so much easier to manage and sort through. Not to mention you've got a discography at your disposal to make any sort of playlist. Although I don't add new music to playlists, I like to digest them as an album primarily, then my favorites will make their way to various playlists.

Quote from: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 02:10:10 AM
Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

No offence or anything, but I really hope JR doesn't listen to you, because I love those ragtime moments and silly moments. I also find it surprising that people find these bits somewhat offensive (or unappealing) to listen to as if it threw them off the ride. DT music has always been very experiential and I think those humorous moments in an otherwise very serious song are very intentional composition wise. People say it's tacky or something but I believe it's part of their musical expression and I wouldn't want DT to conform to anyones expectations.

Quote from: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 02:10:10 AM
I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired.
Just stirrin' the shit...

Well I know it's been mentioned a few times but DT12 is considered to be one of if not the most 'cohesive' works (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean in the world of prog music ;)) they've done in their entire career. So there you go right? If you want them to change anymore than that then you're expecting too much and wanting them to be something other than what they are. And you probably get sick of people saying this but, there are plenty of other artists and bands that fits your description of taste that can even be inspired by bands like Dream Theater but went in a slightly different direction.

Not saying you should dismiss DT either but in the words of JP: I know where I stand, I won't change to fit your plan.. In the words of MP: Help yourself to all I have to give, and then complain. and JLB: Nothing you can do to change me, but accept me as I am.  :millahhhh

Quote from: NotePad on February 17, 2014, 02:10:10 AM
Just stirrin' the shit...

It's all good, me too.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jamesman42 on February 17, 2014, 05:43:46 PM
After a lot of time, bringing Mangini on board was the right call.

ADTOE and DT12 have a lot of great songs. There are a few that I find forgettable, such as BMUBMD, LNF, IT, and STR. I think besides those everything else has been great.

That said, that freaking easter egg at the end of IT is amazing. I think DT should shrug off the prog metal coat for a season and make that sort of beautiful music. They have the talent, they CAN still write good material, but let's hear them stripped back, no focus on wankery, and make some beautiful music. Heck, make it an instrumental album. Or EP. That would be such a treat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 17, 2014, 05:47:12 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 17, 2014, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 16, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

As much as I love OWNing the CD, but I do NOT like using them. Not only because handling the disc causes deterioration but, it's just a huge limitation (unless you've goin' for the full album spin). Once you've ripped the CD, digital music is so much easier to manage and sort through. Not to mention you've got a discography at your disposal to make any sort of playlist. Although I don't add new music to playlists, I like to digest them as an album primarily, then my favorites will make their way to various playlists.

I meant that they are some songs that i even don't hear standalone but when i used to hear them, i would thought: "these are some really good DT songs".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 17, 2014, 05:56:37 PM
Ah fair enough. XD It must have been the context of other conversations made me believe you were talking about not changing disks and so not playing FII as often for just 2 tracks or something along those lines. But I shouldn't make assumption out of context. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 17, 2014, 06:00:22 PM
After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 17, 2014, 06:09:44 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 17, 2014, 06:00:22 PM
After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.

I actually feel DT12 way overcompensated there, and is overly concise to the point of being very unsatisfying, like none of the ideas had time to breathe and develop. ADTOE was a pretty good balance though, but still had long tradeoffs and instrumental sections, and for me DT12 is too heavy overall, at least in regards to the big low power chords overwhelming the arrangements.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 17, 2014, 06:29:43 PM
^^^ I get what you mean. DT12 is well composed and arranged but... Too many parts become a highlight moment of a song, and then it's gone forever. The 'cohesion' is a nice approach and is probably a different style to what the band has done in the past, but we have bits like the rushed ending of TLG, the criminally underused intro to BTV. Even False Awakening explores so many good ideas, but they go by too quickly. And I love Illumination Theory but it never keeps the same musical passage for very long, which works when a song is meant to take you on a journey I suppose (like this song, or perhaps the whole album), but sometimes leaves more to be desired. Haha, everything's never enough :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 17, 2014, 06:33:46 PM
I agree that ADTOE had a better balance and let the songs take a natural course. None of those songs felt long or short.

They'll probably get back to that on the next one. I think DT12 was just an experiment to see if they could do short songs for a change.

Another album with ADTOE lengths would be fine next time.

Just please don't go back to 5 songs per album and 16 mins per song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on February 17, 2014, 07:22:37 PM
I actually think some of DT's best music of all time comes from their 10-15 minute songs, give or take. In DT12 there wasn't any of that, and I feel like some of the songs could have been longer without sacrificing any attention or entertainment value.

Just as an example, I feel like The Looking Glass and Behind The Veil felt a bit rushed. I know the idea for DT12 was to make brief, shorter songs, and they definitely succeeded (I'm actually surprised at how well they were able to make these shorter songs feel grandiose on their own), but I also think their best musical abilities come when they elaborate on musical ideas. Not with songs like, say, ANTR or TMOLS, though I'm actually an avid lover of both of those. Songs like those are good when it isn't JUST longer ones like that (looking at you, Black Clouds).

I apologize for the somewhat meaningless rambling though :lol Basically, long songs are good, just not too long/too many ;D In my opinion.

I loved the longer songs on ADTOE though, they all felt very well balanced. The only problem with ADTOE is that it was pretty safe, but the songwriting could be filed under some of DT's best (yes, some of the songwriting on ADTOE is very similar to or taken directly from Images, but I just mean certain individual things. The instrumental section in Outcry, for example, is pure genius in my opinion.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 18, 2014, 05:14:42 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 17, 2014, 06:29:43 PM
^^^ I get what you mean. DT12 is well composed and arranged but... Too many parts become a highlight moment of a song, and then it's gone forever. The 'cohesion' is a nice approach and is probably a different style to what the band has done in the past, but we have bits like the rushed ending of TLG, the criminally underused intro to BTV. Even False Awakening explores so many good ideas, but they go by too quickly. And I love Illumination Theory but it never keeps the same musical passage for very long, which works when a song is meant to take you on a journey I suppose (like this song, or perhaps the whole album), but sometimes leaves more to be desired. Haha, everything's never enough :P
I actually see what you mean, the entrance of James on Behind The Veil is amazing, but then it changes to a different direction and it kind of takes time to get used to and you feel like it could have been great if they kept the other direction. But then again, that song is one of my favourites of the album so I can't complain at all.

It doesn't feel like it's overcompensating to me, I still think DT12 has one of the best compromises between short song but keeping them "progressive"(if we understand progressive as not fiting a normal structure, that is). And come to think of it, the songs are only short by DT standards, yo can't really call an album with 6-7 minute per song average "a short songs album".

On a maybe controversial side, I'm not very much a fan of Outcry or it's instrumental. And actually the only songs of ADTOE I listen to are OTBOA and Breaking All Illusions(sometimes Bridges and Far From Heaven). The other ones I can happily live without.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 18, 2014, 08:23:14 AM
I still don't know what Chycki's mindset was on the last 2 albums. He's got a resume 10 feet long and these last DT albums should
have had top notch crystal clear sound across the spectrum. But that's not at all what we got. The point hit hard last night after
another attempt to listen to ADToE followed by Journey's reunion album Trail By Fire with Kevin Shirley. My god what a huge
difference in quality. Slag me if you want but I sincerely hope Chycki is NOT part of DT13.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 18, 2014, 08:44:34 AM
Wasn't he involved with Clockwork Angels as well? I wasn't super impressed with the sound on that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BMcP_2112 on February 18, 2014, 08:52:11 AM
Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.  :hat  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 18, 2014, 10:20:07 AM
Quote from: BMcP_2112 on February 18, 2014, 08:52:11 AM
Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.  :hat  :metal

Yeeah!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on February 18, 2014, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 17, 2014, 06:09:44 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 17, 2014, 06:00:22 PM
After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.

I actually feel DT12 way overcompensated there, and is overly concise to the point of being very unsatisfying, like none of the ideas had time to breathe and develop. ADTOE was a pretty good balance though, but still had long tradeoffs and instrumental sections, and for me DT12 is too heavy overall, at least in regards to the big low power chords overwhelming the arrangements.

I totally agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on February 18, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
Quote from: BMcP_2112 on February 18, 2014, 08:52:11 AM
Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.  :hat  :metal
Welcome to the forums  :tup Nice avatar!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 18, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
Quote from: emtee on February 18, 2014, 08:23:14 AM
I still don't know what Chycki's mindset was on the last 2 albums. He's got a resume 10 feet long and these last DT albums should
have had top notch crystal clear sound across the spectrum. But that's not at all what we got. The point hit hard last night after
another attempt to listen to ADToE followed by Journey's reunion album Trail By Fire with Kevin Shirley. My god what a huge
difference in quality. Slag me if you want but I sincerely hope Chycki is NOT part of DT13.

Rich was only involved with the production on DT12 . He produced James' vocals on ADTOE.

Paul Northfield was the engineer on ADTOE and Andy Wallace "mixed" it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on February 18, 2014, 12:28:36 PM
Oh dear, then Chycki's responsible for the absolutely horrible vocal effects on both ADTOE and DT12 right? His mixing was *ok* on DT12, but the production wasn't. Hope DT13 will at least sound better sonically speaking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 18, 2014, 04:35:19 PM
Yeah, bring Kevin Shirley back.






























And Desmond Child.


































:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on February 18, 2014, 05:05:08 PM
I highly doubt that the sonic direction of DT12 was conceived by Richard Chycki
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on February 18, 2014, 05:10:52 PM
I am fine with Kevin Shirley back if he can do to DT now what he did on FII and to Iron Maiden on Brace New World.  Both those albums sound amazing to my ears.  I do not have any problems with DT12 or Chycki so really as long as they keep a producer, then I am happy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 19, 2014, 05:38:43 AM
I would also very much like having Shirley back. Not Desmond Child tough :lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 20, 2014, 07:06:42 PM
I think You Not Me would be a great live song.

Studio recording is kind of bad, I know that but it comes to me the nature of the song makes it well with live setting just because it's chrous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on February 20, 2014, 07:08:18 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on February 20, 2014, 07:06:42 PM
I think You Not Me would be a great live song.

Studio recording is kind of bad, I know that but it comes to me the nature of the song makes it well with live setting just because it's chrous.

That kind of chorus is great when everybody's really into the chorus, and excited, and singing along... which I don't think would be the case if they played You Not Me at a DT show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 20, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
Yeah but you love this song or not, one thing that its chorus is pretty easily-remembered and short. I, for myself, don't love the song but when I listen FII as a whole I find myself singing that song, especially chorus.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 20, 2014, 07:24:53 PM
I think the chorus is the weakest part of the song, whether it's YOM or YNM. I prefer what leads up to it. With the reliance on layered harmonies, I think that chorus would fall very flat live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 20, 2014, 10:29:00 PM
There's nothing weak in You Not Me! Stellar song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 20, 2014, 11:07:22 PM
Stellar? Gotta love the diversity of DT's fans! :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 20, 2014, 11:39:32 PM
I like both versions of the song. I think the YNM chorus is better, however the transition into it is kind of awkward with the key change. The transition out of it is fine however. I really enjoy the bridge after the second chorus in YOM, that part really should have not been cut. I do however, prefer the shorter solo in YNM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 21, 2014, 01:13:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 20, 2014, 11:07:22 PM
Stellar? Gotta love the diversity of DT's fans! :biggrin:

:3  Even though our opinions differ, We still are one big family  :angel:

At Helsinki M&G i'm gonna bring my JPM for Petrucci to sign.  I'm gonna try to talk him into guessing which one it is (when it still still in the guitar case).. If he gets it wrong, They'll have to play You Not Me.. Let's see if Petrucci has enough balls to take the bet!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 03:55:23 AM
Somehow I doubt they'll be basing their future setlists off bets with fans, but let us know how that goes. :lol

I think it's a rule that there has to be that one guy at every M&G getting their JP guitar signed. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 21, 2014, 04:16:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 03:55:23 AM
Somehow I doubt they'll be basing their future setlists off bets with fans, but let us know how that goes. :lol

I think it's a rule that there has to be that one guy at every M&G getting their JP guitar signed. :hat

Haha :D 
If he is hesitant in taking the bet , I'm gonna start the usual "oh... ok... If you are too scared." -thing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enalya on February 21, 2014, 05:00:05 AM
Quote from: adastra on February 21, 2014, 04:16:09 AM
Haha :D 
If he is hesitant in taking the bet , I'm gonna start the usual "oh... ok... If you are too scared." -thing

Then you do have balls :| I wouldn't dare haha. Let us know how it went!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 21, 2014, 05:17:42 AM
Haha, I can see JP saying "if someone's going to play it, it's going to be you not me." You know, since you have the guitar and all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 21, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Admit it... if Dream Theater decided to bust YNM out at a show... totally unexpected.... we'd all be singing it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 21, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Admit it... if Dream Theater decided to bust YNM out at a show... totally unexpected.... we'd all be singing it.

I'd be surprised if most people here even knew the lyrics! :lol

I wouldn't be singing along, but it would be an amusing experience. When they played PoW at the last Sydney show, I was dancing like a tard and having a great time. Sometimes you just have to make the most of it. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 21, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
If Maiden can make me sing along to No More Lies, DT can do it for You Not Me. The song isn't bad anyway.

Still, when they did play it, it just sounded like the studio version with James' less than stellar vocals, so it doesn't translate well live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 21, 2014, 08:08:25 PM
I forgot this even existed - live version of You Not Me. And I thought the version of Blind Faith on Chaos in Motion had crappY vocals...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufTUp3uGmcA
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
I didn't realize JLB would be singing the octave higher melody, but it was just out of his comfortable range. Aside from his vocals, it worked better than I expected live, and the chorus harmonies were done pretty well from JP/MP's side.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 21, 2014, 08:19:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
I didn't realize JLB would be singing the octave higher melody, but it was just out of his comfortable range.

 Yeah, that was a bad choice of vocal arrangement. Aside from that, a solid version. I wouldn´t mind hearing it live, even though I prefer You Or Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 21, 2014, 08:59:21 PM
I didn't find it absolutely terrible on vocals, but it was during JLB's low point and wasn't great. If they performed it now, it would probably would sound better, and JLB might do the next harmony down to make it a little bit more comfortable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 21, 2014, 09:30:48 PM
Vocals are OK but I lol'd when he sings like "it's all about yooaaaaahh not meeeaohhh" A bit rough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on February 21, 2014, 10:58:19 PM
I'm sure that people would go absolutely nuts wheb hearing the opening riff of YNM !
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 22, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 21, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Admit it... if Dream Theater decided to bust YNM out at a show... totally unexpected.... we'd all be singing it.

I'd be surprised if most people here even knew the lyrics! :lol

I wouldn't be singing along, but it would be an amusing experience. When they played PoW at the last Sydney show, I was dancing like a tard and having a great time. Sometimes you just have to make the most of it. :lol


Don't worry. At the time, PoW was the highlight of the show for me (PN09 was my first Dream Theater live experience)

Quote from: Zook on February 21, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
If Maiden can make me sing along to No More Lies, DT can do it for You Not Me. The song isn't bad anyway.


Hey now... I love No More Lies...


Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on February 21, 2014, 08:08:25 PM
I forgot this even existed - live version of You Not Me. And I thought the version of Blind Faith on Chaos in Motion had crappY vocals...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufTUp3uGmcA


Thanks for this!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 22, 2014, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on February 21, 2014, 08:08:25 PM
I forgot this even existed - live version of You Not Me. And I thought the version of Blind Faith on Chaos in Motion had crappY vocals...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufTUp3uGmcA
Wow, that was not one of James' strongest performances...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:07:53 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 22, 2014, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 21, 2014, 07:39:17 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 21, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Admit it... if Dream Theater decided to bust YNM out at a show... totally unexpected.... we'd all be singing it.

I'd be surprised if most people here even knew the lyrics! :lol

I wouldn't be singing along, but it would be an amusing experience. When they played PoW at the last Sydney show, I was dancing like a tard and having a great time. Sometimes you just have to make the most of it. :lol

Don't worry. At the time, PoW was the highlight of the show for me (PN09 was my first Dream Theater live experience)
I've just been listening to Prophets of War. It's ridiculously good fun. Flabby, towards, the end, but there's a great five-minute song in there, and it must be incredible live. That's one I'm gutted we've never yet got live footage of. A gem waiting to be found. You Not Me's not nearly as bad as its bogeyman reputation, either. It's listenable, enjoyable, singable. It's not poetry, but I think there's an extent to which YNM's probably a victim of the online echo chamber. Mild disdain gets repeated, and amplified, and exaggerated, until it becomes caricatured as this incredible burden that the discography would be better off without. It's not - that solo is great, the riff at the end is badass. I'm not convinced it's the worst song in their catalogue. I'm not even convinced it's the worst song on Falling Into Infinity.

I'm onto The Ministry of Lost Souls, now. This must be my first time hearing Ministry in well over a year. I rarely sit down and just listen to music any more. Christ, it's ages since I listened to Systematic Chaos start to finish. The second half of the album does lose momentum, but it's easy to forget that it's still kind of thoroughly brilliant. Such a good song. And the best song title in the DT discography. That transition's great, too. You know the one. With the drums. It's like getting swept into the river Styx, it's ace. I love that transition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 22, 2014, 09:13:24 AM
The only thing about PoW that was a let down was the fact that MP's vocal section was sampled
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
Right, here's mine. In the Presence of Enemies shouldn't be a song. It should be three. How much better is this Systematic Chaos:

1. Resurrection
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Heretic
6. Prophets of War
7. Repentance
8. The Reckoning
9. The Ministry of Lost Souls

ItPoE-1 was very lucky to get split off, because it works so much better alone. Heretic didn't have the same fortune, because it's the best and weirdest DT single that never was. It's huge, that chorus fills the room. Take the edge off a little (only a little) of the Dark Master stuff, chuck in a solo, and that's a wonderful single.

Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember. I'd Hell's Kitchen the shit out of that bad boy. See also --

1. A Bullet from the Night
2. A Rite of Passage
3. Beautiful Agony
4. The Shattered Fortress
5. Wither
6. The Best of Times
7. The Count of Tuscany

BA would've been the standout, from that album. I post it every time it comes up, (which is a lot, I'm nothing if not repetitious,) but here it is again. The best DT song that never quite lived. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E5kDU5cQQ)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 22, 2014, 09:42:01 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
Right, here's mine. In the Presence of Enemies shouldn't be a song. It should be three.

No. It's perfect as a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:43:00 AM
Perfect is a very strong word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 22, 2014, 09:46:43 AM
And incorrect in this case.

Like you, rob, I think Part I is great, but Part II is a mixed bag; it has some good stuff and it has some stuff that, well, could have been a lot better. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 22, 2014, 10:06:41 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:07:53 AM
I think there's an extent to which YNM's probably a victim of the online echo chamber. Mild disdain gets repeated, and amplified, and exaggerated, until it becomes caricatured as this incredible burden that the discography would be better off without.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate this gem of wisdom.  I'm not a big fan of YNM, myself, but the principle here is dead on, and 'online echo chamber' is the best term I've ever seen used to describe it.  :clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:15:22 AM
I'll take up the task of defending Nightmare, then. The midsection needs to be in the middle of that song because it's part of the story arc. It needs to be there just as much as Another World needs to be in A Change of Seasons, which isn't nearly as cohesive (or as good) a song as Nightmare (I realize that that statement is not at all relevant, I just like to anger people). Without each other, the midsection is a moderately strong ballad (only moderately because it's not really close to being a complete song on its own, at least by DT standards), and the rest of the song is a moderately strong prog metal song. Together, A Nightmare to Remember is a genius epic that boasts an incredible dramatic arc and is simply one of the very best songs in the band's entire discography.

This is not at all comparable to Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul, where those two were kind of duct taped together. Hell's Kitchen served no purpose to the dramatic arc of Burning My Soul and was just sort of a random and unnecessary four minute buildup into the final verse and chorus. The midsection is completely necessary to A Nightmare to Remember's dramatic arc. For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well? The only quiet moments, in that instance, would be like a 20 second piano intro and another 20 second keyboard bit later. It also irreparably damages the song vocally and lyrically, because you lose out on the contrast between the "weird trippy hospital scene" and the big, emotional "dealing with the psychological impacts of the accident" scene. This is true just in terms of vocal style as well as in the lyrics. Without the midsection, you're going from a very heavy operatic/gruff vocal section into a very very heavy, very gruff vocal section. That's not much of a contrast compared to going from heavy operatic/gruff into soft, somewhat trippy into very very heavy, very gruff. Taking out the midsection just kills "Day after day," and, though I know that so many people dislike it, that section does not deserve to be killed.

All my stuff about working with the dramatic arc actually apply moderately well to ITPOE, which I think works better as one song, but I would not go so far as to say that it is "perfect" (I wouldn't even say that about ANTR), and it's certainly not nearly as good in my estimation as Nightmare at providing a dramatic arc.


But I do agree, Rob, with approximately everything you said about You Not Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 22, 2014, 10:26:33 AM
Yeah, I've never quite understood why people think it would be a good idea to split up ANTR.  I mean, opinions are opinions, fair enough, but for me, Beautiful Agony isn't nearly as beautiful without the surrounding heaviness and chaos of the rest of the song.  I've listened to the version rob just linked, and it's good, it's a great ballad in its own right, but I think it is infinitely more powerful in the context of ANTR. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 22, 2014, 10:47:47 AM
The intro to ACOS alone is more inspired than the entire ANTR itself but i think i posted this in the wrong thread since this is the controversial opinions one  :-X
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:52:01 AM
For that, I'm going to be a recurring nightmare haunting your dreams. There's no way you can prepare for what will happen next.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 22, 2014, 10:54:50 AM
Taking advantage you are here, who is that in your avatar?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:55:57 AM
Bruce Dickinson. It's from the Satellite 15 intro video that Iron Maiden used on their Final Frontier Tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 22, 2014, 10:57:29 AM
Yeah, i thought it was Dickinson, the guy looked exactly like him  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:59:17 AM
I thought it was a fantastic video so I did a screengrab to use it as my avatar for an Iron Maiden forum I joined, and I just used it here because it's such a great avatar IMO, even though I rarely listen to Maiden anymore (which is probably something I need to rectify).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 11:19:28 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:15:22 AM
I'll take up the task of defending Nightmare, then. The midsection needs to be in the middle of that song because it's part of the story arc. It needs to be there just as much as Another World needs to be in A Change of Seasons, which isn't nearly as cohesive (or as good) a song as Nightmare (I realize that that statement is not at all relevant, I just like to anger people). Without each other, the midsection is a moderately strong ballad (only moderately because it's not really close to being a complete song on its own, at least by DT standards), and the rest of the song is a moderately strong prog metal song. Together, A Nightmare to Remember is a genius epic that boasts an incredible dramatic arc and is simply one of the very best songs in the band's entire discography.

This is not at all comparable to Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul, where those two were kind of duct taped together. Hell's Kitchen served no purpose to the dramatic arc of Burning My Soul and was just sort of a random and unnecessary four minute buildup into the final verse and chorus. The midsection is completely necessary to A Nightmare to Remember's dramatic arc. For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well? The only quiet moments, in that instance, would be like a 20 second piano intro and another 20 second keyboard bit later. It also irreparably damages the song vocally and lyrically, because you lose out on the contrast between the "weird trippy hospital scene" and the big, emotional "dealing with the psychological impacts of the accident" scene. This is true just in terms of vocal style as well as in the lyrics. Without the midsection, you're going from a very heavy operatic/gruff vocal section into a very very heavy, very gruff vocal section. That's not much of a contrast compared to going from heavy operatic/gruff into soft, somewhat trippy into very very heavy, very gruff. Taking out the midsection just kills "Day after day," and, though I know that so many people dislike it, that section does not deserve to be killed.
First off -

::: For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well?
The Glass Prison.

Moving on! I'm not pitching a song that just blanks straight across, I'm pitching a rather more heavy-duty arrangement. I think a lot of the second half is a little flabby. I agree that the "night after night" bit is a lot better than it's given credit for, and that impact would be lessened without the soft section... but the lyrics don't quite match the music, and I think it's a victim of its own ambition. I think, in paring A Nightmare to Remember down to its core elements, you can create two songs that stand strong alone rather than two that sound a little funky together. I get what you're saying about the story, but the way they sit at the moment is a little bit oil and water.

I think, if the song's two identities had a little more in the way of common ground, I'd go easier. It's definitely possible to switch from hard to soft to hard again. Just ask my first wife! You mention the lyrics, but I think the lyrics are the only thing that bring the Jekyll and the Hyde together, and they were the last thing to fit in - and, hence, eminently changeable. A few moments of unity would have made a world of difference. That piano motif could've been a good place to start - the one the song begins with. Work that into Beautiful Agony and you're starting to build a bit of cohesion, but I think it would've taken another week or so in the studio. I adore Beautiful Agony as a stand-alone song, whereas I think A Nightmare to Remember is good in parts - a bit of a curate's egg. I also firmly believe brevity is wit, (not that you'd tell from my posts!) and everything can always be tighter, so I think evicting Beautiful Agony would be more of an opportunity than a sacrifice.

Actually, I can do that, can't I? I might play about with the stems. This will be messy!

Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:15:22 AM
All my stuff about working with the dramatic arc actually apply moderately well to ITPOE, which I think works better as one song, but I would not go so far as to say that it is "perfect" (I wouldn't even say that about ANTR), and it's certainly not nearly as good in my estimation as Nightmare at providing a dramatic arc.
I think you can still have ItPoE's arc spread out throughout the album. The second half of Awake forms an arc, musically, and it's got Lifting Shadows off a Dream wedged into the middle of it. Heck, they had an arc split across an entire decade. There's no reason you can't maintain the story and the flow of ItPoE while standing each movement alone as its own episode. I think an episodic feel would've actually been spot on within the context of Systematic Chaos. The whole disc's got that comic book feel, and I think you could tidy it up without sacrificing any of that great music.


More controversial opinions, as I trudge through the discography in no real order.

Honor thy Father might be the most underappreciated song in the band's history. Brutally heavy, but gorgeously melodic, full of progressive witchcraft, it strikes a stellar balance. The "Expecting everyone to bow and kiss your feet" verse might be the highlight of the album, for me. I think the uncharacteristically angry lyrics might be a bit too bitter for some people, but it's not even like Never Enough where the lyrics are a source of constant grumbling. (Those lyrics are properly hilarious nowadays. "What would you say if I walked away," indeed! Fucking hell.) But HTF is a song I never really hear anything about, positive or negative. It's one of the last ones I'd remember, but I always have a great time.

(Also, WRT Never Enough, that song is bloody brilliant, too. Not a top drawer song, but one of Mike Portnoy's best performances - his drumming is so musical, start to finish. The Muse thing gets it a lot of flack, but... hey, I like Muse!)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 11:19:28 AM
First off -

::: For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well?
The Glass Prison.

Touché. Still, I don't think Nightmare minus the midsection would work too well.

Quote
Moving on! I'm not pitching a song that just blanks straight across, I'm pitching a rather more heavy-duty arrangement. I think a lot of the second half is a little flabby. I agree that the "night after night" bit is a lot better than it's given credit for, and that impact would be lessened without the soft section... but the lyrics don't quite match the music, and I think it's a victim of its own ambition. I think, in paring A Nightmare to Remember down to its core elements, you can create two songs that stand strong alone rather than two that sound a little funky together. I get what you're saying about the story, but the way they sit at the moment is a little bit oil and water.

I think the second half is the only part of the song that comes close to excessive, but it think it's actually good as is.

And I do think the lyrics of "Day after day" match the music. I think the issue that people tend to run into there, and it's an understandable one, is putting the emphasis on "Everyone survived" instead of the entire rest of the passage. The passage is about the psychological aftermath of the accident. Most of it is very dark; it's quite an emotionally intense experience Petrucci is describing, especially for a young boy.

Day after day
And night after night
Replaying the events
Did they ever see the red light?
Over and over
Scene by scene
Like a recurring nightmare
Haunting my dreams
How could you prepare
For what would happen next?
No son should ever have to see his father such a mess
It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no one died
By the grace of God above
Everyone survived

Most of the passage is about how psychologically damaged he is by the accident and how awful it was for him as a child. Only at the very end does the light at the end of the tunnel come when John tells us that everyone survived. But even that isn't exactly a happy ending—he goes out of his way to tell us how much of a miracle it is that no one died, which implies that they were injured very badly. The last two lines should be read with emphasis on "by the grace of God above" instead of on "Everyone survived"—if only because Mike shows us that the outcome is closer to the negative than to the positive interpretation with his vocal style.

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I think, if the song's two identities had a little more in the way of common ground, I'd go easier. It's definitely possible to switch from hard to soft to hard again. Just ask my first wife! You mention the lyrics, but I think the lyrics are the only thing that bring the Jekyll and the Hyde together, and they were the last thing to fit in - and, hence, eminently changeable. A few moments of unity would have made a world of difference. That piano motif could've been a good place to start - the one the song begins with. Work that into Beautiful Agony and you're starting to build a bit of cohesion, but I think it would've taken another week or so in the studio. I adore Beautiful Agony as a stand-alone song, whereas I think A Nightmare to Remember is good in parts - a bit of a curate's egg. I also firmly believe brevity is wit, (not that you'd tell from my posts!) and everything can always be tighter, so I think evicting Beautiful Agony would be more of an opportunity than a sacrifice.

Well, the music was written before the lyrics, of course, but that's aside from the point. I think it would be awesome if they had added a bit more of connection. I don't think there is really a good way to work the piano motif into the midsection, but I do think the last few minutes of the song, which is a lot of revisiting earlier themes, could probably have hit on some of the themes of the midsection. However, I don't think it was at all necessary for them to do this to make it feel like one song. You praised The Ministry of Lost Souls earlier in this thread. I agree with that praise—it's a top 25 song—but it's really similar to the construction of A Nightmare to Remember in a lot of ways. It's just reversed (light-heavy-light instead of heavy-light-heavy).

And the lyrical concept tying the midsection to the rest of the song is far more tenuous than for Nightmare.

Personally, for me, I think length and brevity in music... Neither is intrinsically better than the other. I think whatever best serves the purposes of the music is better. I think a particular song can be too long or too short, but I don't think long songs are by their very nature better than short songs or vice versa. This is reflected in my top 10, I think, which contains both Far From Heaven and Octavarium. My opinion is simply that Nightmare is good as a long song and that its midsection would not be nearly as good as short song as it is as part of that long song.

And I think we share a penchant for lengthy posts! :tup

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Actually, I can do that, can't I? I might play about with the stems. This will be messy!

The musical issue with doing that (the one having nothing to do with my personal judgement of the song), though, is that the midsection goes directly into the solo section and therefore Beautiful Agony as a standalone song wouldn't end properly. I don't have the stems but I did try once to make a standalone edit just to see how it sounded, and I just couldn't figure out what to do with the ending. I think I wound up fading it out, but as I recall it didn't sound too great that way (I think because I had to fade the chorus, like while they were singing).

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I think you can still have ItPoE's arc spread out throughout the album. The second half of Awake forms an arc, musically, and it's got Lifting Shadows off a Dream wedged into the middle of it. Heck, they had an arc split across an entire decade. There's no reason you can't maintain the story and the flow of ItPoE while standing each movement alone as its own episode. I think an episodic feel would've actually been spot on within the context of Systematic Chaos. The whole disc's got that comic book feel, and I think you could tidy it up without sacrificing any of that great music.

I think that's an interesting idea at least, but I think if they'd have done that, I'd just have wound up wishing they'd put all the pieces together in one song. I also think that would kill the pacing that the song works so hard to achieve, particularly on the Part II upswing from Heretic to Salvation—could you imagine them splitting the song into two anywhere else other than exactly where they split it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 12:00:39 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
Quote
Actually, I can do that, can't I? I might play about with the stems. This will be messy!

The musical issue with doing that (the one having nothing to do with my personal judgement of the song), though, is that the midsection goes directly into the solo section and therefore Beautiful Agony as a standalone song wouldn't end properly. I don't have the stems but I did try once to make a standalone edit just to see how it sounded, and I just couldn't figure out what to do with the ending. I think I wound up fading it out, but as I recall it didn't sound too great that way (I think because I had to fade the chorus, like while they were singing).
I'll come to the rest shortly, but first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E5kDU5cQQ Here you go! Not mine, regrettably. It's A Bullet from the Night I want to fiddle about with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 12:14:23 PM
That's an impressive edit. I still prefer A Nightmare to Remember as a whole, but it would have been interesting if the band had done something like that and included it as bonus material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on February 22, 2014, 12:21:05 PM
What would be the actual advantage to splitting up ANTR into two songs?  It's one thing to say "the heavy part of ANTR sucks, and 'Beautiful Agony' is great, so I only want Beautiful Agony on the album" -- that makes sense.  But what do you get out of ripping the middle part of the song out and slapping it into the middle of the album?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 12:54:02 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on February 22, 2014, 12:21:05 PM
What would be the actual advantage to splitting up ANTR into two songs?  It's one thing to say "the heavy part of ANTR sucks, and 'Beautiful Agony' is great, so I only want Beautiful Agony on the album" -- that makes sense.  But what do you get out of ripping the middle part of the song out and slapping it into the middle of the album?
I think context is huge. I think if you're looking at a song as a collection of disparate images, then yeah, there's no advantage, but pace, momentum, narrative and drive are right at the heart of what makes music brilliant. Music, at best, takes you on a sort of journey, and order isn't just important, it's utterly vital. Otherwise you could pop all the verses at the start of the song, all the choruses at the end. I like the music of ANtR, and if (if!) your take home message from my posts was "the heavy part of ANTR sucks, and 'Beautiful Agony' is great," I need to work on my phrasing! I just don't think the current arrangement quite does either song justice, and I think A Nightmare to Remember has two statements that don't quite sit right together. Why did Hell's Kitchen suddenly flourish when it was ripped from Burning My Soul? Same thing.

Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
Quote
Moving on! I'm not pitching a song that just blanks straight across, I'm pitching a rather more heavy-duty arrangement. I think a lot of the second half is a little flabby. I agree that the "night after night" bit is a lot better than it's given credit for, and that impact would be lessened without the soft section... but the lyrics don't quite match the music, and I think it's a victim of its own ambition. I think, in paring A Nightmare to Remember down to its core elements, you can create two songs that stand strong alone rather than two that sound a little funky together. I get what you're saying about the story, but the way they sit at the moment is a little bit oil and water.

I think the second half is the only part of the song that comes close to excessive, but it think it's actually good as is.

And I do think the lyrics of "Day after day" match the music. I think the issue that people tend to run into there, and it's an understandable one, is putting the emphasis on "Everyone survived" instead of the entire rest of the passage. The passage is about the psychological aftermath of the accident. Most of it is very dark; it's quite an emotionally intense experience Petrucci is describing, especially for a young boy.

Day after day
And night after night
Replaying the events
Did they ever see the red light?
Over and over
Scene by scene
Like a recurring nightmare
Haunting my dreams
How could you prepare
For what would happen next?
No son should ever have to see his father such a mess
It's a miracle he lived
It's a blessing no one died
By the grace of God above
Everyone survived

Most of the passage is about how psychologically damaged he is by the accident and how awful it was for him as a child. Only at the very end does the light at the end of the tunnel come when John tells us that everyone survived. But even that isn't exactly a happy ending—he goes out of his way to tell us how much of a miracle it is that no one died, which implies that they were injured very badly. The last two lines should be read with emphasis on "by the grace of God above" instead of on "Everyone survived"—if only because Mike shows us that the outcome is closer to the negative than to the positive interpretation with his vocal style.
That's true! That's very true, actually, and you're completely right - it's "EVERYONE SURVIVED" that I remember. Memory is a dirty magnifying glass, some things get exaggerated, others are obscured completely, and I've got a hunch we're back to that message board echo chamber! Another week or two in the studio could've ironed that out - but I know they agonised over that bit. I don't think they ever got it to a place where it quite worked at 100%, regrettably, because although it's only a moment's lapse, that moment is sort of the money shot! It's a bit like how everyone complained when JLB missed the note on Live Scenes. ANtR is still pegged in my head as "Very promising, but it needs a little more work," and I think - for all you're absolutely correct and it's mostly great - it is one of the moments that I would go back to and consider tweaking.

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Quote
I think, if the song's two identities had a little more in the way of common ground, I'd go easier. It's definitely possible to switch from hard to soft to hard again. Just ask my first wife! You mention the lyrics, but I think the lyrics are the only thing that bring the Jekyll and the Hyde together, and they were the last thing to fit in - and, hence, eminently changeable. A few moments of unity would have made a world of difference. That piano motif could've been a good place to start - the one the song begins with. Work that into Beautiful Agony and you're starting to build a bit of cohesion, but I think it would've taken another week or so in the studio. I adore Beautiful Agony as a stand-alone song, whereas I think A Nightmare to Remember is good in parts - a bit of a curate's egg. I also firmly believe brevity is wit, (not that you'd tell from my posts!) and everything can always be tighter, so I think evicting Beautiful Agony would be more of an opportunity than a sacrifice.

Well, the music was written before the lyrics, of course, but that's aside from the point. I think it would be awesome if they had added a bit more of connection. I don't think there is really a good way to work the piano motif into the midsection, but I do think the last few minutes of the song, which is a lot of revisiting earlier themes, could probably have hit on some of the themes of the midsection. However, I don't think it was at all necessary for them to do this to make it feel like one song. You praised The Ministry of Lost Souls earlier in this thread. I agree with that praise—it's a top 25 song—but it's really similar to the construction of A Nightmare to Remember in a lot of ways. It's just reversed (light-heavy-light instead of heavy-light-heavy).

And the lyrical concept tying the midsection to the rest of the song is far more tenuous than for Nightmare.

Personally, for me, I think length and brevity in music... Neither is intrinsically better than the other. I think whatever best serves the purposes of the music is better. I think a particular song can be too long or too short, but I don't think long songs are by their very nature better than short songs or vice versa. This is reflected in my top 10, I think, which contains both Far From Heaven and Octavarium. My opinion is simply that Nightmare is good as a long song and that its midsection would not be nearly as good as short song as it is as part of that long song.

And I think we share a penchant for lengthy posts! :tup
I don't think shortness and brevity are necessarily the same thing - if they were, and I was the short song guy, I wouldn't be listening to DT at all! But take Illumination Theory, I think Illumination Theory is incredibly witty, every note in its right place. It's 19 minutes, and while it's not perhaps as compact as it could be, it's as compact as it should be. I don't think that's true of A Nightmare to Remember in the same way. I don't think it's true of any of BCSL, actually, which is probably why I'm a little cold on it. I like your comparison of The Ministry of Lost Souls, though. I think the difference with the Ministry (and Sacrificed Sons before it) is that the mid-section point blank couldn't work on its own. It might not be essential to the rest of the song* but the song is essential to it. That's not true of A Nightmare to Remember in the same way - Beautiful Agony has a structure of its own, threaded in. It's got the traditional verse, chorus, verse, chorus thing, and that gives it its own life, in a way that doesn't work for Ministry.

Quote
Quote
I think you can still have ItPoE's arc spread out throughout the album. The second half of Awake forms an arc, musically, and it's got Lifting Shadows off a Dream wedged into the middle of it. Heck, they had an arc split across an entire decade. There's no reason you can't maintain the story and the flow of ItPoE while standing each movement alone as its own episode. I think an episodic feel would've actually been spot on within the context of Systematic Chaos. The whole disc's got that comic book feel, and I think you could tidy it up without sacrificing any of that great music.

I think that's an interesting idea at least, but I think if they'd have done that, I'd just have wound up wishing they'd put all the pieces together in one song. I also think that would kill the pacing that the song works so hard to achieve, particularly on the Part II upswing from Heretic to Salvation—could you imagine them splitting the song into two anywhere else other than exactly where they split it?
To the Slaughter of the Damned - I know what you mean. The Slaughter of the Damned is oh so tiny, and oh so brilliant, but it's also cuttable, and I can't promise that I wouldn't end up deleting it entirely. In fairness, they've never quite got that transition right, live - Heretic stops, and the drums come in on their own, and you're right, it sort of loses something. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with Slaughter, The Reckoning and Salvation. I think I'd want to tie them together with a sort of overture - more a conclusion - incorporating riffs from all the other songs, but yes, it's weird. There's part of me that thinks, "Well, they've done a lot of big finishes, they've done a lot of instrumental sections, I'm not too hot on The Reckoning anyway..." if I were the band's producer, rewriting them entirely would certainly be something I'd put on the table. I think Heretic is begging for room to breathe, though. It's so good. It deserves its own life.

*although I think both songs would be weaker without their descents into chaos - perfect for the afterlife and perfect for terrorism. then again, I've already noted that the lyrics come later - can I have it both ways? pleeeeeaaaase?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 12:54:02 PM
That's true! That's very true, actually, and you're completely right - it's "EVERYONE SURVIVED" that I remember. Memory is a dirty magnifying glass, some things get exaggerated, others are obscured completely, and I've got a hunch we're back to that message board echo chamber! Another week or two in the studio could've ironed that out - but I know they agonised over that bit. I don't think they ever got it to a place where it quite worked at 100%, regrettably, because although it's only a moment's lapse, that moment is sort of the money shot! It's a bit like how everyone complained when JLB missed the note on Live Scenes. ANtR is still pegged in my head as "Very promising, but it needs a little more work," and I think - for all you're absolutely correct and it's mostly great - it is one of the moments that I would go back to and consider tweaking.

I think you're right that we're in echo chamber territory again, given that the only lines from that section that seem to have lived on in message board memory are "Day after day" and "Everyone survived."

I think maybe there's a tiny lapse, but I still think it works (and Mike certainly nails the money shot, which actually comes right after in my judgement—"ROOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR"—and honestly, in my opinion, which is sure to cause more angry responses, that's practically as iconic of a vocal moment as something like "I'm sick of all you hypocrites").

And, interestingly, this is actually a case where the music followed the lyrics—the original vocal melody was a high James one, and Mike and John argued and agonized over what it should be, with the final choice being a compromise between clean vocals and full death growls. I'm sure one of the things they discussed was how that would work with the lyrics, and I'm sure that John had some concerns, but in the end, the lyrics were John's, they were written before Mike's vocal melody was, and as the co-producer, co-composer and lyricist I don't think John would have abided a vocal style that betrayed the intended emotion of his lyrics.

So perhaps it could have been a little clearer, but personally, I've never had a problem with it. I just make sure no one's around and then growl along. ;)

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I don't think shortness and brevity are necessarily the same thing - if they were, and I was the short song guy, I wouldn't be listening to DT at all! But take Illumination Theory, I think Illumination Theory is incredibly witty, every note in its right place. It's 19 minutes, and while it's not perhaps as compact as it could be, it's as compact as it should be. I don't think that's true of A Nightmare to Remember in the same way. I don't think it's true of any of BCSL, actually, which is probably why I'm a little cold on it. I like your comparison of The Ministry of Lost Souls, though. I think the difference with the Ministry (and Sacrificed Sons before it) is that the mid-section point blank couldn't work on its own. It might not be essential to the rest of the song* but the song is essential to it. That's not true of A Nightmare to Remember in the same way - Beautiful Agony has a structure of its own, threaded in. It's got the traditional verse, chorus, verse, chorus thing, and that gives it its own life, in a way that doesn't work for Ministry.

I think your point about shortness and brevity is a good one, and I agree about Illumination Theory. I also agree that it's not as true of A Nightmare to Remember, though I don't think that it is so long as to overstay its welcome.

I disagree about all of BCSL, though, and I'm not even going to be a smartass and say Wither, however strong the temptation is. I think the album certainly has moments of excess, and that those include the last few minutes of ANTR, the solo section of AROP, and a few parts of TSF, though none of these excesses are too excessive for me to love all there songs. But... The Best of Times and The Count of Tuscany? I think those songs are as compact as they should be. I'm not in love with all of The Best of Times, but there's no sections that feel superfluous or overlong to me. I've occasionally thought that the song is a bit long but have never found any section that I feel could be cut, so I think my problems with it don't stem from length.

The Count of Tuscany definitely feels to me like Illumination Theory in the sense of being a 19 minute song that's exactly as compact as it should be. TCOT actually feels, despite its length, more compact than IT to me. Not that that's a negative for either song, it just seems like TCOT was written with a shorter song in mind that just wound up getting filled with musical ideas that added to its length (not unlike how Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was written to be a 20 minute song but soon became so filled with musical ideas that it became a 40 minute song), while IT was conceived as a much more ambitious, 20 minute song, and ended up being written exactly that way. Each song is written in a way that is right for what it is, and I think more or less music would only harm either one.

I think your difference between the middles of TMOLS and ANTR could be a relevant difference, but I think there's still a sense in which my comparison is still valid. And I also would argue for TMOLS (but not for Sacrificed Sons) that the instrumental section wouldn't require much more fleshing out than Hell's Kitchen got or Beautiful Agony would need to become a standalone instrumental. I even figured out what I would call it: The Water's Edge. But, as I do agree with and accept your "it works with the lyrics about the afterlife" explanation (and I do think that either John and/or James had in mind the fact that the midsections work with the lyrics or they both got lucky, and that it matters little either way, because they do in fact work), and would leave the instrumental in the song given the choice.

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To the Slaughter of the Damned - I know what you mean. The Slaughter of the Damned is oh so tiny, and oh so brilliant, but it's also cuttable, and I can't promise that I wouldn't end up deleting it entirely.

Angels fall, all for you, you damn heretic! :P I guess it's fortunate for me that you didn't produce Systematic Chaos, because I love The Slaughter of the Damned.

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In fairness, they've never quite got that transition right, live - Heretic stops, and the drums come in on their own, and you're right, it sort of loses something. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with Slaughter, The Reckoning and Salvation. I think I'd want to tie them together with a sort of overture - more a conclusion - incorporating riffs from all the other songs, but yes, it's weird. There's part of me that thinks, "Well, they've done a lot of big finishes, they've done a lot of instrumental sections, I'm not too hot on The Reckoning anyway..." if I were the band's producer, rewriting them entirely would certainly be something I'd put on the table. I think Heretic is begging for room to breathe, though. It's so good. It deserves its own life.

I've made my peace with The Reckoning. I think it's easily the weakest part of the song, and I would like the song better if they had—just going to be blunt about this—written a better instrumental section (I think I probably need some kind of long dash allowance, to the effect that I can only use them a certain number of times every so many words). But it's not total scrap—there's some good parts in there, especially towards the end, and it transitions exceedingly well into Salvation. The reprise of the main theme there is just so well timed. Salvation I think is a great final section for an epic, not as good as Razor's Edge or The Crimson Sunset, but almost on par with Surrender, Trust & Passion or Losing Time/Grand Finale.

I love Heretic—it's my favorite section of the piece by far. But I'm not sure it should stand as its own song. For me, it's like... Someone Like Him, perhaps (just the vocal section proper, minus the intro). It's very good and has a verse-chorus section like a song, but I think it works exceptionally well as a buildup to the next part of a longer song and I'm not sure how much it would benefit from being pulled out and given an outro and forced to stand alone as a 4-5 minute piece. I mean, I'm sure both would be good songs in that context, but I think both are better off as part of Octavarium and In the Presence of Enemies. Though, again, I think it would be at least interesting if they had fleshed some of those kind of things out, like Someone Like Him, Heretic, maybe even Slaughter of the Damned and released those versions as bonus tracks for deluxe editions or something. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 01:46:16 PM
I love Heretic—it's my favorite section of the piece by far. But I'm not sure it should stand as its own song. For me, it's like... Someone Like Him, perhaps (just the vocal section proper, minus the intro). It's very good and has a verse-chorus section like a song, but I think it works exceptionally well as a buildup to the next part of a longer song and I'm not sure how much it would benefit from being pulled out and given an outro and forced to stand alone as a 4-5 minute piece. I mean, I'm sure both would be good songs in that context, but I think both are better off as part of Octavarium and In the Presence of Enemies. Though, again, I think it would be at least interesting if they had fleshed some of those kind of things out, like Someone Like Him, Heretic, maybe even Slaughter of the Damned and released those versions as bonus tracks for deluxe editions or something. Just a thought.
Funnily enough, I just had the exact same thought! Different springboard - I've been filling my mum's laptop with Dream Theater (not as a prank, she bloody loves them), and I noticed I'd tagged Beautiful Agony's album as "Beautiful Agony: A Nightmare to Remember." Instant bells - "Ooh, Nightmare to Remember EP, that's a nice idea." I think I'd sooner have them play them live. They've cut up A Change of Seasons live, they've played Solitary Shell alone as an eleven-minute epic. Give Heretic the Surrounded treatment, chuck a jam in and let her rip.

Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 01:46:16 PM
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To the Slaughter of the Damned - I know what you mean. The Slaughter of the Damned is oh so tiny, and oh so brilliant, but it's also cuttable, and I can't promise that I wouldn't end up deleting it entirely.

Angels fall, all for you, you damn heretic! :P I guess it's fortunate for me that you didn't produce Systematic Chaos, because I love The Slaughter of the Damned.
I know! I agree. I just watched ItPoE from Chaos in Motion after writing that, had so much fun with The Slaughter of the Damned, and felt so guilty. I can't promise I would delete it entirely, either! I think I'd fight to keep it. I'd hope I'd fight to keep it. Maybe I could find a way to cram it into Heretic. Or use it as a songlet, like War Inside My Head. In fact, I know what I'd do --

Quote
Quote
In fairness, they've never quite got that transition right, live - Heretic stops, and the drums come in on their own, and you're right, it sort of loses something. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with Slaughter, The Reckoning and Salvation. I think I'd want to tie them together with a sort of overture - more a conclusion - incorporating riffs from all the other songs, but yes, it's weird. There's part of me that thinks, "Well, they've done a lot of big finishes, they've done a lot of instrumental sections, I'm not too hot on The Reckoning anyway..." if I were the band's producer, rewriting them entirely would certainly be something I'd put on the table. I think Heretic is begging for room to breathe, though. It's so good. It deserves its own life.

I've made my peace with The Reckoning. I think it's easily the weakest part of the song, and I would like the song better if they had—just going to be blunt about this—written a better instrumental section (I think I probably need some kind of long dash allowance, to the effect that I can only use them a certain number of times every so many words). But it's not total scrap—there's some good parts in there, especially towards the end, and it transitions exceedingly well into Salvation. The reprise of the main theme there is just so well timed. Salvation I think is a great final section for an epic, not as good as Razor's Edge or The Crimson Sunset, but almost on par with Surrender, Trust & Passion or Losing Time/Grand Finale.
I'd completely destroy the Reckoning, and devise a new instrumental section. Something a bit Shattered Fortressy, riffing on all the different songs from the album - reprising The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry of Lost Souls, possibly the cool riff from Prophets of War - and then it'd crash, as it already does, with the theme from Resurrection, right into Salvation, which I wouldn't touch. The Slaughter of the Damned would only get the faintest reworking - basically, a stronger outro, and it'd sit with Heretic as The Mirror sits with Lie. So the new tracklist is...

1. Resurrection
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Heretic /
6. The Slaughter of the Damned
7. Repentance
8. Prophets of War
9. The Ministry of Lost Souls
10. Systematic Chaos

Boom! That's a killer album. That's my dream SC. I like the album we got - this isn't me slagging SC off, this is me chiseling what I'd describe as a slightly rough diamond and seeing what I can make from it.

And yes, I fear the god of long dashes (all glory to Djumbotep) is probably having a panic attack. Mine aren't even proper long dashes, they're hyphens that got out of hand.

Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 01:46:16 PM
I think your point about shortness and brevity is a good one, and I agree about Illumination Theory. I also agree that it's not as true of A Nightmare to Remember, though I don't think that it is so long as to overstay its welcome.

I disagree about all of BCSL, though, and I'm not even going to be a smartass and say Wither, however strong the temptation is. I think the album certainly has moments of excess, and that those include the last few minutes of ANTR, the solo section of AROP, and a few parts of TSF, though none of these excesses are too excessive for me to love all there songs. But... The Best of Times and The Count of Tuscany? I think those songs are as compact as they should be. I'm not in love with all of The Best of Times, but there's no sections that feel superfluous or overlong to me. I've occasionally thought that the song is a bit long but have never found any section that I feel could be cut, so I think my problems with it don't stem from length.

The Count of Tuscany definitely feels to me like Illumination Theory in the sense of being a 19 minute song that's exactly as compact as it should be. TCOT actually feels, despite its length, more compact than IT to me. Not that that's a negative for either song, it just seems like TCOT was written with a shorter song in mind that just wound up getting filled with musical ideas that added to its length (not unlike how Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was written to be a 20 minute song but soon became so filled with musical ideas that it became a 40 minute song), while IT was conceived as a much more ambitious, 20 minute song, and ended up being written exactly that way. Each song is written in a way that is right for what it is, and I think more or less music would only harm either one.
TBoT and TCoT - I hear you, but I do think there's bits that could be cut. TBoT, certainly, has glorious moments, but sags a little around the centre, and I think that prevents me from listening to it more often. TCoT is great, I love TCoT, but I don't think it's quite as tight as Illumination Theory. IT feels like TCoT done right. They're structurally very similar, but even though Illumination Theory is more abrupt - The Count has these wonderful segues from moment to moment - The Count feels like it's got more of an identity crisis. Not a major one, it doesn't take me out of the moment, I'm not sat there listening to it and thinking, "Nice try boys but this chorus doesn't quite match the intro," I'm sat there thinking, "III!! I DON'T WANT TO DIIIIE!" I'll defend the lyrics to the hilt, too - I think they work, they're literal, but laced with just a hint of doolally. I do think both tracks fall slightly into BCSL trappings, but less so than some of their album-mates, definitely.

Sorry for the bits I've skipped - it's just I'm conscious that these posts are only getting longer and longer! I like the bit about ANTR, just didn't have anything to add. Funnily, with The Water's Edge (great title!), we've halfway swapped sides. I'd argue that if you can imagine The Water's Edge, Beautiful Agony is a cinch. I'm still not quite seeing TMoLS split in two, but I think we're approaching a common ground. That might be the first time that's happened in any internet discussion, ever. I'll e-mail Tim Berners-Lee with the good news. Then I'll call him names until he blocks me.

Bloody Tim Berners-Leakypants.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 22, 2014, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
I'd completely destroy the Reckoning, and devise a new instrumental section. Something a bit Shattered Fortressy, riffing on all the different songs from the album - reprising The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry of Lost Souls, possibly the cool riff from Prophets of War - and then it'd crash, as it already does, with the theme from Resurrection, right into Salvation, which I wouldn't touch. The Slaughter of the Damned would only get the faintest reworking - basically, a stronger outro, and it'd sit with Heretic as The Mirror sits with Lie. So the new tracklist is...

1. Resurrection
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Heretic /
6. The Slaughter of the Damned
7. Repentance
8. Prophets of War
9. The Ministry of Lost Souls
10. Systematic Chaos



I would eat that up like a fat guy eating cake.













So like me eating cake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 05:27:05 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 02:35:02 PM
Funnily enough, I just had the exact same thought! Different springboard - I've been filling my mum's laptop with Dream Theater (not as a prank, she bloody loves them), and I noticed I'd tagged Beautiful Agony's album as "Beautiful Agony: A Nightmare to Remember." Instant bells - "Ooh, Nightmare to Remember EP, that's a nice idea." I think I'd sooner have them play them live. They've cut up A Change of Seasons live, they've played Solitary Shell alone as an eleven-minute epic. Give Heretic the Surrounded treatment, chuck a jam in and let her rip.

I think that's a great idea, actually. How about a John Myung/Jordan jam in the intro, especially since JMX probably gets the least spotlight out of everyone, then Heretic into Slaughter like your The Mirror/Lie idea (or like how they do WIMH/TTTSTA). I even think they could do those two as a tight little pair without even writing a new outro for Slaughter—just let "It's time for your reckoning" ring after the music stops. I can hear it already.

Quote
I know! I agree. I just watched ItPoE from Chaos in Motion after writing that, had so much fun with The Slaughter of the Damned, and felt so guilty. I can't promise I would delete it entirely, either! I think I'd fight to keep it. I'd hope I'd fight to keep it. Maybe I could find a way to cram it into Heretic. Or use it as a songlet, like War Inside My Head. In fact, I know what I'd do --

I'd completely destroy the Reckoning, and devise a new instrumental section. Something a bit Shattered Fortressy, riffing on all the different songs from the album - reprising The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry of Lost Souls, possibly the cool riff from Prophets of War - and then it'd crash, as it already does, with the theme from Resurrection, right into Salvation, which I wouldn't touch. The Slaughter of the Damned would only get the faintest reworking - basically, a stronger outro, and it'd sit with Heretic as The Mirror sits with Lie. So the new tracklist is...

1. Resurrection
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Heretic /
6. The Slaughter of the Damned
7. Repentance
8. Prophets of War
9. The Ministry of Lost Souls
10. Systematic Chaos

Boom! That's a killer album. That's my dream SC. I like the album we got - this isn't me slagging SC off, this is me chiseling what I'd describe as a slightly rough diamond and seeing what I can make from it.

I think this would actually be very good, if the pieces of ITPOE could still be put together into one epic (meaning all that would have to be done is work it so TSOTD still went into the instrumental section you use to replace The Reckoning).

ACTUALLY (possible inspiration striking as we speak):

Personally, I can hear TSOTD ending cold on "It's time for your reckoning," with a slightly more conclusive musical ending, played with a brief pause, then going into the intro for TDEN. So reorganize the tracklist to put TDEN after TSOTD. THEN have Systematic Chaos begin with the TDEN riff or something very similar sounding if that doesn't work on account of something musical I don't understand (I'm not at all a musician) so the transition is basically the same whether you do album order or ITPOE as a suite, except maybe have it also begin with the symphonic keyboards from the end of TSOTD so that it's less of a momentum kill than the beginning of The Reckoning. And then just name the tracks that are part of ITPOE the way AMBI is named. So something like "In the Presence of Enemies: III. Heretic."

**Also, just a note, ITPOE Part I is actually two movements: Prelude is the instrumental part up to when it dies down at 4:15, then it's Resurrection.

Quote
And yes, I fear the god of long dashes (all glory to Djumbotep) is probably having a panic attack. Mine aren't even proper long dashes, they're hyphens that got out of hand.

Don't let your hyphens play out of position!

Quote
TBoT and TCoT - I hear you, but I do think there's bits that could be cut. TBoT, certainly, has glorious moments, but sags a little around the centre, and I think that prevents me from listening to it more often.

I feel the same way, basically, but I never listen to it and say "if they cut out the center, this would be a lot better," because the center is important to the song as a whole. It's just... I guess not as good as the rest.

Quote
TCoT is great, I love TCoT, but I don't think it's quite as tight as Illumination Theory. IT feels like TCoT done right. They're structurally very similar, but even though Illumination Theory is more abrupt - The Count has these wonderful segues from moment to moment - The Count feels like it's got more of an identity crisis. Not a major one, it doesn't take me out of the moment, I'm not sat there listening to it and thinking, "Nice try boys but this chorus doesn't quite match the intro," I'm sat there thinking, "III!! I DON'T WANT TO DIIIIE!" I'll defend the lyrics to the hilt, too - I think they work, they're literal, but laced with just a hint of doolally. I do think both tracks fall slightly into BCSL trappings, but less so than some of their album-mates, definitely.

I don't know, to me the intro reminds me of the kind of "stately but a little creepy castle" vibe they have going. It's a little too serious for the joking nature of the lyrics, but I think the transitions carry us well enough from the intro to the silly lyrics to keep from putting that worry in my head.

Quote
Sorry for the bits I've skipped - it's just I'm conscious that these posts are only getting longer and longer! I like the bit about ANTR, just didn't have anything to add. Funnily, with The Water's Edge (great title!), we've halfway swapped sides. I'd argue that if you can imagine The Water's Edge, Beautiful Agony is a cinch. I'm still not quite seeing TMoLS split in two, but I think we're approaching a common ground. That might be the first time that's happened in any internet discussion, ever. I'll e-mail Tim Berners-Lee with the good news. Then I'll call him names until he blocks me.

My position on both of those, really, is that they could work split but work better together. I'm inferring that your position is not quite being able to see TMOLS split but thinking ANTR is somewhat better that way. So yeah, we're rather close and I think we can pretty safely agree to disagree on ANTR with a fairly solid understanding of each other's position. And I think the amount of common ground we've had has in fact increased, which is definitely incredible given that we're on the internet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 22, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
This must be the first time in DTF history for me where I deem a whole page as tl;dr.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 22, 2014, 06:23:23 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 22, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
This must be the first time in DTF history for me where I deem a whole page as tl;dr.

Your loss.  As far as I'm concerned, 425 and robwebster can go back and forth as much as they want.    :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on February 22, 2014, 06:29:40 PM
I like it more when a narrative arc is in a suite: say, 3 songs in an album, that define a story, rather than a 20 minute epic that sometimes can drag on. ANTR drags on for me due to the long, fast, wanky metal sections, that sort of tire me out. In fact, Beautiful Agony is one of the only redeeming sections of that song for me. :shrug:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rickhawk80 on February 22, 2014, 06:32:32 PM
With as rank-happy as this crowd can be it's only a matter of time before someone ranks how this page of this thread compares to pages of other threads......   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 22, 2014, 06:33:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 22, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
This must be the first time in DTF history for me where I deem a whole page as tl;dr.

+1

 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 22, 2014, 06:37:38 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 22, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
This must be the first time in DTF history for me where I deem a whole page as tl;dr.

ts;dr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ozzy554 on February 22, 2014, 06:46:25 PM
since the topic of splitting songs has popped up, As much as I love octavarium I think someone like him with some tweaking could be a great stand-alone song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 22, 2014, 06:49:49 PM
I would cut out of IT's ambient and orchestral sections and tossed them into a bin. Then I would actually like IT as a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 22, 2014, 06:58:17 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 22, 2014, 06:49:49 PM
I would cut out of IT's ambient and orchestral sections and tossed them into a bin put them aside. Then I would actually like love IT as a song.

Fixed for me.  I already like IT as a song, but I think I could love it with a few changes, because I do feel that the ambient/orchestral section derails its momentum.  I think that section is great in its own right, so I wouldn't want to throw it out entirely, but I certainly wouldn't mind editing it out of Illumination Theory. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 22, 2014, 07:36:04 PM
I love that section, because it finally lets the song breathe a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 22, 2014, 07:36:43 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 22, 2014, 10:06:41 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:07:53 AM
I think there's an extent to which YNM's probably a victim of the online echo chamber. Mild disdain gets repeated, and amplified, and exaggerated, until it becomes caricatured as this incredible burden that the discography would be better off without.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate this gem of wisdom.  I'm not a big fan of YNM, myself, but the principle here is dead on, and 'online echo chamber' is the best term I've ever seen used to describe it.  :clap:

I hereby declare "online echo chamber" to be an official term. I could use that plenty here! :biggrin:

And basically just agree with whatever else rob has said.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
I feel like we should all just add "I agree with robwebster" to our signatures.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 22, 2014, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
I feel like we should all just add "I agree with robwebster" to our signatures.

I feel like it's just implied, and is assumed unless stated otherwise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:08:06 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
I feel like we should all just add "I agree with robwebster" to our signatures.

I agree with Shadow Ninja.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:10:48 PM
Also the whole echo chamber could be applied to a number of things.

1. Latest thing is not as great as previous things.
2. Not as great becomes - poor.
3. Poor becomes really awful.
4. really awful becomes " Worst thing ever ".

You see this a lot. Especially nowadays where everyone online has a voice and anyone can be a critic . Especially in movies where a slight plot hole or continuity error gets massively inflated as the sole reason the entire film is a steaming turd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 08:11:49 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:08:06 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
I feel like we should all just add "I agree with robwebster" to our signatures.

I agree with Shadow Ninja.

Hell, I agree with Shadow Ninja and I just spent several posts having a discussion with robwebster in which we obviously didn't agree on every point.


And I agree with the above from Kotowboy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 22, 2014, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:10:48 PM
Also the whole echo chamber could be applied to a number of things.

1. Latest thing is not as great as previous things.
2. Not as great becomes - poor.
3. Poor becomes really awful.
4. really awful becomes " Worst thing ever ".

You see this a lot. Especially nowadays where everyone online has a voice and anyone can be a critic . Especially in movies where a slight plot hole or continuity error gets massively inflated as the sole reason the entire film is a steaming turd.

For the last time Kotowboy, Into Darkness was just a bad movie. No echo chamber here. :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 08:21:23 PM
I liked Into Darkness.

Of course, I don't care about any other Star Trek stuff, so I suppose I came at it from a different angle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2014, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 22, 2014, 08:21:23 PM
I liked Into Darkness.

Of course, I don't care about any other Star Trek stuff, so I suppose I came at it from a different angle.

Exactly my perspective on Into Darkness. I came to both Abrams films as a non-fan of the series coming to Abrams films and enjoyed both. I have since seen Wrath of Khan and also enjoyed it, though I could not rank the three since the only one I've seen more than once is the first Abrams film.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 22, 2014, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:10:48 PM
Also the whole echo chamber could be applied to a number of things.

1. Latest thing is not as great as previous things.
2. Not as great becomes - poor.
3. Poor becomes really awful.
4. really awful becomes " Worst thing ever ".

You see this a lot. Especially nowadays where everyone online has a voice and anyone can be a critic . Especially in movies where a slight plot hole or continuity error gets massively inflated as the sole reason the entire film is a steaming turd.

For the last time Kotowboy, Into Darkness was just a bad movie. No echo chamber here. :loser:

I don't care what anyone else thinks. What's important is *I* liked it. And I wasn't talking about Star Trek.

I was on about YouTube comments and such like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 22, 2014, 08:38:03 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 22, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
I don't care what anyone else thinks. What's important is *I* liked it. And I wasn't talking about Star Trek.

I was on about YouTube comments and such like.

I thought maybe you were referring to Trek, so I was just messing with you. :lol
I find it's best to just completely ignore Youtube comments. And Blabbermouth. And Facebook. Heck, just most of the internet really.
Not so much on forums, especially closer communities like this, probably because everyone is a little closer, with a bit less of the anonymity that seems to create that atmosphere. And being a forum, people put a bit more thought and time into a post than just a 1 line "it's shit" response too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 22, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
You take your whore mouth Blob and your "Into Darkness" agenda somewhere else!! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rude boy on February 24, 2014, 03:08:02 AM
Adding to the recent ''how awful is YNM'' debate- I'm watching Score right now and i gotta say that I Walk Beside You is a far, far worse song than YNM but it doesn't seem to get any hate.

I really do not like that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 24, 2014, 04:08:19 AM
Quote from: rude boy on February 24, 2014, 03:08:02 AM
Adding to the recent ''how awful is YNM'' debate- I'm watching Score right now and i gotta say that I Walk Beside You is a far, far worse song than YNM but it doesn't seem to get any hate.

I really do not like that song.

I rarely if ever see IWBY get positive comments, so maybe you just need to stick around longer. :biggrin:

IWBY is actually a very well written and constructed pop rock song, and I think it's a much better song than YNM. YNM feels like a song that never really worked as a whole, and they didn't know what they were doing with it, even though it has some good ideas in there.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 24, 2014, 04:39:13 AM
Quote from: rude boy on February 24, 2014, 03:08:02 AM
Adding to the recent ''how awful is YNM'' debate- I'm watching Score right now and i gotta say that I Walk Beside You is a far, far worse song than YNM but it doesn't seem to get any hate.

I really do not like that song.

I'm definitely one of the few who really enjoy IWBY. It doesn't anything like DT really, maybe some of the drum parts and the vocals. I think it's one of DT's better short, poppy songs. It has one of my favourite JLB moments in the last chorus. "No mAAAAter how far"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on February 24, 2014, 05:38:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 24, 2014, 04:08:19 AM
I rarely if ever see IWBY get positive comments, so maybe you just need to stick around longer. :biggrin:
This. It doesn't get the hate You Not Me does, but almost no one praises the song.

I like both of them though. :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on February 24, 2014, 08:18:24 AM
Oh, I'LL step up!!

I freakin LOVE IWBY!   When 8V came out, I thought it was just good...but being at the Score show really raised the bar for that song.  Now I think it's pure awesome sauce.   

If 8V has a weak point at all (it's my favorite DT album and I think it's very nearly flawless from start to finish) it's the lyrics to TALW.   And yet, I still love that song.  It's just that the lyrics sound so cliche.   Like they were pulled straight out of "Chicken Soup for the Soul".    Terrible.   

But even those lyrics show a far greater maturity than, "Forevermore....into the night....blistering..."  *twitch*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 24, 2014, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: jammindude on February 24, 2014, 08:18:24 AM
But even those lyrics show a far greater maturity than, "Forevermore....into the night....blistering..."  *twitch*

Question: do people have a problem with the lyrics of Constant Motion in general, or is it literally just that one part that bothers everybody?  Personally, while I fully admit that the quoted line feels a bit ridiculous and out of place, I actually like the rest of the song, lyrically.  I'm just curious as to how other people feel about it.  Is it just the one cheesy line that ruins it, or what?

By the way, jammindude, I'm not trying to single you out, it's just that your mentioning it reminded me of it. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 24, 2014, 08:38:51 AM
 When it comes to lyrics, for me ignorance is bliss. I understand their meaning, but with me not being a native English speaker, it´s hard for me to pick up the tone and the cheesiness in lines like the one in Constant Motion. Also, "but I don´t give a shit, noooooooooo" on Burning My Soul doesn´t bother me at all.

 With all thjat said, I´d be lying if I said the lyrics on the new Adrenaline Mob album didn´t catch my attention for all the wrong reasons!  :tdwn :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on February 24, 2014, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on February 24, 2014, 08:29:47 AM
Quote from: jammindude on February 24, 2014, 08:18:24 AM
But even those lyrics show a far greater maturity than, "Forevermore....into the night....blistering..."  *twitch*

Question: do people have a problem with the lyrics of Constant Motion in general, or is it literally just that one part that bothers everybody?  Personally, while I fully admit that the quoted line feels a bit ridiculous and out of place, I actually like the rest of the song, lyrically.  I'm just curious as to how other people feel about it.  Is it just the one cheesy line that ruins it, or what?

By the way, jammindude, I'm not trying to single you out, it's just that your mentioning it reminded me of it.

For me, I guess it's because I think I actually wrote that exact line once...     ...after hearing my first Saxon album when I was 12.   *cringe*

I love Saxon btw....but imagine an inspired 12 yr old trying to write his first heavy metal song after listening to a Saxon album.   It's comically bad.    So that's the image I get in my head whenever I hear Constant Motion.    But that's obviously a far more personal reason than anyone else is going to have.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on February 24, 2014, 09:24:53 AM
Well, I can understand that.  I just think that the rest of the lyrics are pretty good.  I feel like he wrote a pretty solid set of lyrics, and then decided that the chorus wasn't quite metal enough and tacked on the silly bit. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 24, 2014, 09:56:30 AM
..."Traveling through both space and time......you get yours and I got mine"..... :lol

I'm not a huge fan of the lyrics to CM.....they are actually pretty weak compared to what MP has produced in the past. He's always been a great lyric writer and it seemed like he and JP took this album off as far as the amount of thought that went into the lyrics on any of the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 24, 2014, 11:31:40 AM
I love the lyrics on CM. Maybe not every single line, but the "Focus Here, Focus There" section, I think is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on February 24, 2014, 12:25:27 PM
It seems I took a couple of days off and this thread turned from "Systematic Chaos is the best" to "Remaking Systematic Chaos" :lol Sorry guys, but for me at least ITPOE works hell of a lot better as one song that scattered in pieces throughout the album. It could work, and it could make an interesting "Director's version" sort of remake, but it would need some HUGE work on the music. And on the other topics, let's just say that off the great debate I'm more in 425 side. Beautiful Agony without the previous and latter sections almost loses meaning. Actually, A Nightmare To Remember is one of the songs that's not among my favourites but I can say that's pretty well constructed(I would have done the last part differently but it works as it is), unlike IT which is among my favourites but I feel it could've been even better if some sections were actually longer.

Oh, and I'm sorry but You Not Me is just a poor song, not the worst thing in the world or anything but I guess the worst feature of it is that it's so mediocre that it's not even worth hating, it kind of those persons that you pity them more than anything else. It would be fun to see live though, just to see the fans reaction, some of them might have never even heard the song and think it's a new one to appear in the next album, that could be even funnier "OMG!! With MP this would've never happened!!!" :lol.

Constant Motion has overall good lyrics with a few :facepalm: moments, but all in all is a good song. I think as far as SC goes I think they just wanted to dial down the "ambitiousness"(I can't find the proper word for it) of the lyrics for more fun or light topics, just like the music.

Oh, and some random thought that just came to me(and perhaps my first real controversial opinion here): I think if the DT catalog(aside from WDADU) were released backwards instead of how it is, I&W would've gotten A LOT of hate instead of the praise it gets :P("that Metropolis middle section is awful and it drags the whole down" comes to mind :P). Sometimes I think some DT albums gets hated just for having DT name on it, among fans and non fans, and their only fault is being compared to the other albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 24, 2014, 12:28:20 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
Right, here's mine. In the Presence of Enemies shouldn't be a song. It should be three. How much better is this Systematic Chaos:

...

Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember. I'd Hell's Kitchen the shit out of that bad boy. See also --

...

Rob, I love you dearly, but just NO!  ITPOE is great as-is.  Maybe it would benefit by having a minute or so trimmed out.  But I still feel that it would lose more than it would gain by doing so.  Top notch song as is.  And, IMO, if you simply cut Prophets and Ministry from Systematic Chaos and add in something that approaches the quality of the rest of the album, SC becomes a top 3 DT album. 

And Nightmare is fantastic.  If I could re-do the song myself, the ONLY things I would change would simply be to remove the "RAWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!" and the blast beat (or have a guest drummer who can do better blast beats step in).  Do that, and it is just about perfect and is potentially a top-3 DT song.  As it is, it still falls just outside my top 10.


Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 10:15:22 AM
I'll take up the task of defending Nightmare, then. The midsection needs to be in the middle of that song because it's part of the story arc. It needs to be there just as much as Another World needs to be in A Change of Seasons, which isn't nearly as cohesive (or as good) a song as Nightmare (I realize that that statement is not at all relevant, I just like to anger people). Without each other, the midsection is a moderately strong ballad (only moderately because it's not really close to being a complete song on its own, at least by DT standards), and the rest of the song is a moderately strong prog metal song. Together, A Nightmare to Remember is a genius epic that boasts an incredible dramatic arc and is simply one of the very best songs in the band's entire discography.

This is not at all comparable to Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul, where those two were kind of duct taped together. Hell's Kitchen served no purpose to the dramatic arc of Burning My Soul and was just sort of a random and unnecessary four minute buildup into the final verse and chorus. The midsection is completely necessary to A Nightmare to Remember's dramatic arc. For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well? The only quiet moments, in that instance, would be like a 20 second piano intro and another 20 second keyboard bit later. It also irreparably damages the song vocally and lyrically, because you lose out on the contrast between the "weird trippy hospital scene" and the big, emotional "dealing with the psychological impacts of the accident" scene. This is true just in terms of vocal style as well as in the lyrics. Without the midsection, you're going from a very heavy operatic/gruff vocal section into a very very heavy, very gruff vocal section. That's not much of a contrast compared to going from heavy operatic/gruff into soft, somewhat trippy into very very heavy, very gruff. Taking out the midsection just kills "Day after day," and, though I know that so many people dislike it, that section does not deserve to be killed.

All my stuff about working with the dramatic arc actually apply moderately well to ITPOE, which I think works better as one song, but I would not go so far as to say that it is "perfect" (I wouldn't even say that about ANTR), and it's certainly not nearly as good in my estimation as Nightmare at providing a dramatic arc.

Yes, this!  ALL of this!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 24, 2014, 01:12:31 PM
Couple things bother me about ITPOE:
1. The way the song is divided up. I feel like having the entire remainder of Systematic Chaos between Part 1 and Part 2 really breaks the momentum, making Part 2 seem less interesting from the getgo.
2. "Dark Master". I really feel like they needed to go more evil. The song's about the devil, right? Maybe John felt it would be taking things too far to use one of his various, more poetic names, but I felt like it would have really knocked the chorus out of the park. "Dark Master" over and over again just seems unlyrical, and kind of silly.
3. The section where James LaBrie snarls the psalm over the MP gang vocals. They didn't quite pull it off, in my opinion.  It was a good idea, it just doesn't quite work out.

Now, onto ANtR:
1. The lyrics. This is more of a Black Clouds-level complaint. A lot of fans wanted JP to do more "realistic" lyrics after Systematic Chaos. John did just that, but ironically three of his four songs on BC&SL (ANtR, ARoP, TCoT) simultaneously manage to feel both more realistic and more trivial than their SC counterparts. I have to say, I think BC&SL is JP's low point, lyrically.
2. It's too long I feel like it just goes on and on. Especially after "Beautiful Agony", I kind of want the song to go somewhere other than where it does.

Note that I have not mentioned the two obvious sections: "Day after day...", and the blastbeats. That is because I think both of these issues are just consequences of my two real gripes with the song. I think Portnoy's vocal part works stylistically, it just winds up sounding weird because the lyrics are not really very good. As for the blastbeats - my issue with them is related to how long the song is. Had they come in earlier, they would have sounded cool. But by the time they come in, I've heard the main riff repeated several times already, and not much else can make it sound interesting anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 24, 2014, 01:26:50 PM
I always listen to ITPOE all together. I usually just start SC with Forsaken.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 24, 2014, 03:49:44 PM
The thing about ITPOE is that Pt. 1 works extremely well as an album opener, while Pt. 2 works extremely well as an album closer. And the both neat and odd thing about it is that the song as a whole--parts 1 and 2 combined--flows pretty well when played consecutively. At the same time, I feel that going from Pt. 1 --> Forsaken and TMOLS --> Pt. 2 flows pretty well, too. The momentum in both cases is paced almost perfectly. I have to commend DT for having the ability to pull that off. Some serious Wish You Were Here shit going on with that.

I also don't think any part of ITPOE should be removed in any way. As a whole, it's a definite top 20--if not top 10--DT song for me. Lyrics? Not some of Petrucci's best, I'll say that. But I quite like them. There's some pretty awesome moments in there.

In regarding SC, if some of the songs in between were better, I could see myself calling it a top 5 DT album at the very least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 25, 2014, 06:58:12 AM
Quote from: robwebster on February 22, 2014, 12:00:39 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
Quote
Actually, I can do that, can't I? I might play about with the stems. This will be messy!

The musical issue with doing that (the one having nothing to do with my personal judgement of the song), though, is that the midsection goes directly into the solo section and therefore Beautiful Agony as a standalone song wouldn't end properly. I don't have the stems but I did try once to make a standalone edit just to see how it sounded, and I just couldn't figure out what to do with the ending. I think I wound up fading it out, but as I recall it didn't sound too great that way (I think because I had to fade the chorus, like while they were singing).
I'll come to the rest shortly, but first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E5kDU5cQQ Here you go! Not mine, regrettably. It's A Bullet from the Night I want to fiddle about with.

That sounds like a Scenes out take. Such a shame that it's jammed in the middle of a quite repetitive metal bluster. Could have easily been two great songs instead of one OK one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 25, 2014, 06:58:34 AM
I think my issue with breaking the songs up really stems from Repentance, Prophets of War, and The Ministry of Lost Souls basically being duds. By the time you get to Part 2, you've already listened to 30 minutes of pretty lackluster music, and patience with whatever comes next is running thin.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 27, 2014, 05:40:53 PM
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vbrodrigues95 on February 27, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 27, 2014, 07:14:39 PM
Quote from: vbrodrigues95 on February 27, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P

The bolded are the ones I think are probably controversial, and oddly enough, I agree with all of them, excepting that my favorite from I&W is Another Day, with Take The Time coming in second.

edit: Wait, no. My above statement stands, but I don't think the one about I&W is controversial. Gah, posting while tired. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 27, 2014, 08:43:58 PM
Quote from: vbrodrigues95 on February 27, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P
Yes, Yes, I enjoy the song but it started to get old quick (my Dad never put it in iTunes, I finally started listening to it from a bootleg) and I imagine it got stale after being on MTV, Never Enough is decent enough, definitely not 8VM's worst, IF kicks ass, LTL, duh, it's good in concert, I personally am not big on the incoherent instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on February 27, 2014, 08:46:46 PM
I&W, SC and BC&SL are the 3 best DT albums BY FAR. Number 4 isn't even close. If those 3 albums didn't exist, I wouldn't be a DT fan. I don't think SFaM is very good, nor do I like Octavarium or Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on February 27, 2014, 09:26:38 PM
I wouldn't go that far. I really need to give SC a thorough listen through, but I never got into it. BC&SL is excellent, but I particularly enjoy SFAM and Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 27, 2014, 09:49:22 PM
XBOX wins thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 27, 2014, 10:13:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 27, 2014, 05:40:53 PM
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.

The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on February 27, 2014, 11:55:33 PM
Has Mike Portnoy ever played in a way similar to Danny Carey, by any chance? Judging from some reactions to an earlier comment, I get the feeling people would not be very impressed had MP ever played some table in DT songs. I don't think MP is any less of a drummer then Danny Carey, if i happened to give that impression. But Danny Carey is my favorite drummer because of those things, he does things most other rock or metal drummers would never dare. I just think a drummer in DT should not be afraid to experiment like that too. Are there any other metal drummers who are similar to Carey in this way?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 06:31:27 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 27, 2014, 10:13:15 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 27, 2014, 05:40:53 PM
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.

The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.

I agree with half of this. Overall, I think a DT unfettered by what "DT should sound like" is the best DT. That said, I'm not completely sold on unfettered JR. I loved, loved, loved SDOIT (which seems to be his most outspoken release with DT), and I really liked Levin Minneman Rudess, but some of JR's solo records are really just way too kooky sounding for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on February 28, 2014, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 27, 2014, 10:13:15 PM
The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.

What they did in SFAM/SDOIT stays in SFAM/SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on February 28, 2014, 09:46:43 AM
Personally I would say Rudess is probably my least favorite of the DT keyboard players. I think Moore and Sherinian had a really nice subtlety to their sound, and it really worked well with the overall sound of the band. I really love what Rudess did on SFAM and SDOIT (both would be in my top3 DT albums), but it started to bother me on ToT and hasn't really changed since. It's not just Rudess though, I would argue that there was a shift in mentality in the whole band after SDOIT which was for the worse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 10:12:19 AM
I can't pin JR down. On paper, he should be my favorite DT keyboardist - he loves classic prog as well as post rock, ambient, and other genres I love (you can't say the same for the other guys). He doesn't care much about the metal side of things. And he's obviously the most talented. And yet, his contributions often seem to fall short for me. I'm not sure what it is, whether he lacks a certain touch of the previous two players, or whether he just doesn't really enjoy playing the metal stuff. His contributions on LMR and Steven Wilson's albums are fantastic, so I sometimes suspect it's the metal thing that he just doesn't gel with as much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on February 28, 2014, 10:38:50 AM
Everyone knows what their so-called problem is: Marketing. Even though I don't think they should have any worries about it, they just kept getting more mainstream since SDOIT. The most complex creation was 8VM and that's mainly because of the self-titled song. And I saw that the record label wouldn't accept Jordan's creations, that has to be why the things kept sounding good but somehow lacking creativity. I wonder if they can stand up against the label and say "We want to make better things than we've been doing in almost over a decade, we need your full support."  :-\

Also I have to add that this was written on many DT fans' opinions. If you ask me, the last album is perfect and they are showing some GREAT signs of going back to do what they did best ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!

I wasn't mega excited about the new album, because I thought they were sliding into a comfort zone, somewhere they'd said everything they needed to say. The new album's far more intense, far more heightened, they've properly challenged themselves as songwriters. The Bigger Picture sounds precious little like anything that came before - it sounds like fun., at the end, of all bands. That's not a sound I thought was in their repertoire. Proper anthemic pop, but sumptuous.

I rather think Mike Portnoy was the one who went in with preconceptions of what people would "accept" on a DT album, and I think BCSL suffered for it. ADToE sort of restated their identity - largely out of necessity - but I think all bets are off from here on out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on February 28, 2014, 12:10:02 PM
Damn it Robwebster, every time you post, I find myself nodding my head and approving.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!
Eh, disagree completely. DT12 has its moments, but ultimately I think "homogenous" is the perfect way of describing their sound. There are no more spicey risky moments for me; just "safe" ones which 1.) sound a heck of a lot like  JP songs, and 2.) have obvious precedent in previous recordings. And... that's OK. For a band that's pushed the envelope as often as DT have, fine. You can't expect any artist to reinvent the wheel so many times. But I'd sure like it better if the direction was more open-ended and exploratory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on February 28, 2014, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on February 28, 2014, 12:10:02 PM
Damn it Robwebster, every time you post, I find myself nodding my head and approving.

He is known for having that effect on lesser spirits like you and me  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on February 28, 2014, 12:25:34 PM
I used to regard Systematic Chaos as one of their low points, but in retrospect I do prefer it to ADTOE and DT12. It's kind of a wacky album, but at least it's not as generic sounding as ADTOE and DT12. To be clear: I like those two albums but I do think they're a bit too generic for their own good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!
Eh, disagree completely. DT12 has its moments, but ultimately I think "homogenous" is the perfect way of describing their sound. There are no more spicey risky moments for me; just "safe" ones which 1.) sound a heck of a lot like  JP songs, and 2.) have obvious precedent in previous recordings. And... that's OK. For a band that's pushed the envelope as often as DT have, fine. You can't expect any artist to reinvent the wheel so many times. But I'd sure like it better if the direction was more open-ended and exploratory.
I don't think so at all!

You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing. Actually, you've got three instrumentals on the album, including the little Easter Egg - which is also unlike anything on any of their other albums!

But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.

Let's not forget, either, that the biggest curveball (and, alongside FII, the most controversial installment (way more controversial than FII on messageboards alone)) in the DT catalogue is still only seven years young. Yes, this is a band who have recorded well over a hundred songs, half of which have several different identities, movements and styles within them - so, no, not everything they do, they're necessarily doing for the first time. That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:59:59 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing.

Eh, that section is probably the coolest part of the album for me, but it doesn't really doesn't ever approach novel, because it's too similar to the way The Count of Tuscany has that break. So, when I hear it, I think "cool, they did the same thing as TCoT, just better" which is great, but not really new or different sounding.

Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.
Cool points, but I think the way it sounds so much like Rush breaks the sense of it being novel, or outside DT's typical domain.

Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.

Well, it's cool you feel that way. I definitely don't feel like "nothing's off the table", but if you do, I won't try and change your mind. Don't want to be a spoilsport :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on February 28, 2014, 03:38:42 PM
I'm not sure if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I feel like on DT12, they overdid it with the choruses a bit. All the songs on DT12 (except EM and IT) have the same type of melodic, big-sounding chorus. The thing is, I actually like the melodies they use and I'm sure they'll be fun to sing along to live, but to me they all have the same "feel" and I always know they're coming at least twice in the song which makes the song as a whole less interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:59:59 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing.

Eh, that section is probably the coolest part of the album for me, but it doesn't really doesn't ever approach novel, because it's too similar to the way The Count of Tuscany has that break. So, when I hear it, I think "cool, they did the same thing as TCoT, just better" which is great, but not really new or different sounding.

Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.
Cool points, but I think the way it sounds so much like Rush breaks the sense of it being novel, or outside DT's typical domain.

Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.

Well, it's cool you feel that way. I definitely don't feel like "nothing's off the table", but if you do, I won't try and change your mind. Don't want to be a spoilsport :biggrin:
Hahahaha - thank you!

I know what you mean, there are bits of Surrender to Reason that totally sound like Rush - but I think decrying the song for invoking Rush would be a bit like decrying Sacrificed Sons for invoking Muse. I mean... I don't think it'd be wrong, SS verse 2 is Sing for Absolution to the max, but I don't think it sticks about in either case. The StR chorus doesn't invoke Rush, the bass break really doesn't, I think, from a very Rush-y start, it goes its own way.

...But it might just be a case of different focus! I certainly think, on the heels of ADToE and especially BCSL, DT was a massive surprise and a sigh of relief for me. You're right, there are things I've heard before, but I think even the things I've heard before sound... refreshed? Does that make sense? Even The Enemy Inside, which is probably the closest to trad DT, sets itself apart from its spiritual predecessors just by being so much more witty and succinct. It's not the single most surprising album in their catalogue (and a self-titled album shouldn't be), but I'd say they're definitely not coasting any more.

But I'm getting repetitious! Sorry. Too long with nowhere to squawk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 28, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: lithium112 on February 28, 2014, 03:38:42 PM
I'm not sure if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I feel like on DT12, they overdid it with the choruses a bit. All the songs on DT12 (except EM and IT) have the same type of melodic, big-sounding chorus. The thing is, I actually like the melodies they use and I'm sure they'll be fun to sing along to live, but to me they all have the same "feel" and I always know they're coming at least twice in the song which makes the song as a whole less interesting.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. All things considered, I think it's forgivable, but it does make it a little more difficult to find what truly makes each song its own unique entity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on February 28, 2014, 04:01:06 PM
^I agree too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on February 28, 2014, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 28, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Yeah, I kind of agree with this. All things considered, I think it's forgivable, but it does make it a little more difficult to find what truly makes each song its own unique entity.

That's a good way of putting it. The thing is, they're really good at that sound. But for whatever reason I find that it saturates the latest album a bit too much. And it's a trend that I think has been increasing recently. I've never noticed it until listening to ADTOE for the first time and I had the same thing listening through DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on February 28, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:59:59 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.
Cool points, but I think the way it sounds so much like Rush breaks the sense of it being novel, or outside DT's typical domain.

The comparisons to Rush are sometimes overstated.  The intro/outro sounds like Rush, and maybe you could cite an influence in the bass break in the middle, but on the whole the song doesn't sound much like Rush at all.  Too heavy, too dark.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 28, 2014, 08:23:41 PM
Well as a Rush nut the bass break and the first half of the solo is very Rush influenced and I remember JP asking how Alex got his solo sound on the Permanent  Waves album and the producer, who has worked with Rush many times set him up.  So no big deal because I just think it's a nod toone of his idols.  It's not the whole song but that one section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 28, 2014, 09:34:43 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
I rather think Mike Portnoy was the one who went in with preconceptions of what people would "accept" on a DT album, and I think BCSL suffered for it. ADToE sort of restated their identity - largely out of necessity - but I think all bets are off from here on out.

I'm going to have to disagree with you yet again.

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2352022.aspx (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2352022.aspx)

"In the end, JP and I discussed it and he just couldn't hang with the cookie...he thought it was just TOO radical for DT fans to swallow... "

Assuming that Mike is faithfully reporting here the discussions as they occurred, it is clear that Mike was trying to test the boundaries of what people would "accept" on a DT album (as you put it), and that John was the one to shoot it down in the name of what DT fans would "swallow."

And I agree with Perpeptual Change, for the most part, in this conversation. In my judgement, it is clear from ADTOE and DT12 that Mike was for the most part right about John's attitude towards these things. Those two albums are at least mostly safe.

They're also difficult albums for me, as I've said before. There are a number of songs on both albums that I really love, including OTBOA, FFH, BAI, TBP and IT. These are all quite simply among the band's best songs. But the albums on which they appeared were largely safe, largely in keeping with what is expected of Dream Theater. I'm not prepared to judge them negatively as albums for that, since that can often be good and I really do love the albums. But I definitely don't feel like nothing is off the table. I mean, yeah, there is the string/ambient section in IT, but the fact is that they did similar things in TCOT, 8VM and the overture of SDOIT. Same deal with some of the electronic stuff on BMUBD and Outcry—it first cropped up in ITNOG.

Again, this is not necessarily a condemnation of the albums, it is just an expression of my view that there's certainly a lot that is, in fact, off the table. I don't expect the band to ever really surprise us again, at least not more than the string section in IT was a surprise. I don't expect to hear another moment where I think "hey, they never tried anything at all like this before this album!" I do on all the pre-ADTOE albums (examples, working backwards: Day After Day, POW rap, 8VM intro, Vacant, SDOIT overture, TDOE ragtime, Chapman Stick on NM, SDV, sax on AD, WDADU was the debut). Meanwhile there's not been anything like this on ADOTE (electronic stuff can be heard on ITNOG, BAI surprised me by how good it was—and it's now my very favorite—but not with any new elements of the sound) or DT12 (ambientish/symphonic stuff they've done in the past, and The Embracing Circle, FAS and the BTV intro are really the only things that make a bit of a claim to being new sound elements).

It's hard for me to be exacting or harsh in this because I love ADTOE and DT12. They're fantastic albums, the both of them. But they don't excite me as much as the albums with Mike Portnoy. Not only do I prefer the feel of the band with Portnoy's drumming, but I also feel like each album with Mike went out of its way to be unique within the catalog and bring a certain sound characteristic of that album. If you asked, I could describe the sound of each of the albums and do so pretty specifically. Even Black Clouds & Silver Linings, which is accused of being "generic DT," stands apart to my ear. I'd call it the most gothic Dream Theater album, and one that is extraordinarily evocative of the image described in its title. It's also the last DT album (in terms of most recent) that I love without reservation.

To conclude this very long post, I'll reiterate my agreement with Perpetual Change. The last two DT albums sound homogenous to me where the ten that preceded them each stand apart from the others to me. I will add that I understand that Mike is probably gone forever and that we're not getting him back, that I'm okay with this, and that I'm happy with Mike Mangini as the best choice of replacement. And I'm okay if we get like five more albums like ADTOE and DT12 because they have very good songwriting and, though they don't excite me as much as the first ten, they are in all honesty very good albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 28, 2014, 09:39:30 PM
I feel like JP saying the growls didn't fit was a diplomatic way of telling Mike that he can't growl. At all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 28, 2014, 09:49:27 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more contemporary technical/death metal bands with harsher vocals of the time played a large part in Mike's direction for the band just prior to his departure. I recall him saying that Colors from BTBAM was his favorite album of that year, so I can see why he wanted to incorporate growling backing vocals. Whether they worked for DT, well that's all around pretty subjective of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on February 28, 2014, 09:50:53 PM
DT's career from SC and on is better than their career before SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 28, 2014, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 28, 2014, 09:39:30 PM
I feel like JP saying the growls didn't fit was a diplomatic way of telling Mike that he can't growl. At all.

I'm no expert on good vs. poor growls, but I think the mp3 of the actual growls (not the final version, though that is excellent, just not growling) is far from being bad, and I think if they'd double tracked it perhaps he probably would have been good to go for that section.

But in any case, note that MP isn't quoting John as saying that the growls didn't fit, but that the DT fanbase couldn't take them. I think if MP is quoting that accurately, I think that is significant evidence, along with the overall musical direction of the band with JP as producer, that JP was more concerned than Mike was with what the fanbase expected from a DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 28, 2014, 10:07:12 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on February 28, 2014, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 27, 2014, 10:13:15 PM
The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.

What they did in SFAM/SDOIT stays in SFAM/SDOIT.

Unfortunately. :(

Quote from: Perpetual Change on February 28, 2014, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: robwebster on February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!
Eh, disagree completely. DT12 has its moments, but ultimately I think "homogenous" is the perfect way of describing their sound. There are no more spicey risky moments for me; just "safe" ones which 1.) sound a heck of a lot like  JP songs, and 2.) have obvious precedent in previous recordings. And... that's OK. For a band that's pushed the envelope as often as DT have, fine. You can't expect any artist to reinvent the wheel so many times. But I'd sure like it better if the direction was more open-ended and exploratory.

I agree with you on this and all follow up posts, PC.
The few curveballs I can think of on DT12 do have precedent in previous recordings, and despite being less safe than ADTOE, the album is still safe and familiar. Not that safe or familiar are necessarily bad things, but I'd like something unexpected.
I don't hear so much of each band member's individual range lately, like they have too defined an idea of what DT is supposed to sound like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on March 01, 2014, 12:37:12 AM
I'v been outspoken here about a lot of DTs past music, particularly the majority of albums like I&W, SFAM, ADTOE to name a few. Of course there are some I really love, Awake for example. It's odd how a bands discography could split my opinion so much.

But I really like what they've done with DT12. Some say they're playing it safe, and it could be seen that way. DT have been becoming more known in the 'mainstream' and one might say the new album was a way to capitalize on that. But DT does a lot of things, like i'v said, the next album may have another 45 minutes song preceeded by 8 minute songs. You can't predict it. But DT12 surprised me very much. I was becoming so tired of these guys, ADTOE was just so goddamn typical, like I&W part 2 ;p DT12 had more of a groove then usual DT albums overall. I love the Rush influence, but i also sense Journey-like melodies in a couple parts. Either way, great stuff. Illumination Theory though, eh, my least favorite atm. They always gotta throw in something like that, don't they?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Here's a small rant of mine: Is James' only way of singing softly these days by breathily moaning into the microphone as if he was a gay lover asking for round 2 in bed? He didn't do that all that much back in the early days, but these days it seems for him *the* way of singing softly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 01, 2014, 10:53:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
Here's a small rant of mine: Is James' only way of singing softly these days by breathily moaning into the microphone as if he was a gay lover asking for round 2 in bed? He didn't do that all that much back in the early days, but these days it seems for him *the* way of singing softly.

This also annoys me, especially in the first verse of The Bigger Picture.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shade on March 01, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
I think it's genuinely remarkable how little JLB's voice has changed in the 20+ years he's been in the band. Look at many other prog metal bands who've been around as long, and they're vocalist has usually changed (often for the worse) over time, or been replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 01, 2014, 11:34:30 AM
Quote from: Shade on March 01, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
I think it's genuinely remarkable how little JLB's voice has changed in the 20+ years he's been in the band. Look at many other prog metal bands who've been around as long, and they're vocalist has usually changed (often for the worse) over time, or been replaced.

Agreed, although there are still noticeable changes. I think not his midrange sounds a lot better now, and he's somewhat re-attained the raspier side of his voice that he hasn't used since maybe 2002.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 01, 2014, 11:40:27 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 01, 2014, 11:34:30 AM
Agreed, although there are still noticeable changes. I think not his midrange sounds a lot better now, and he's somewhat re-attained the raspier side of his voice that he hasn't used since maybe 2002.

Look in the mirr-ah! What's that yaaaaaaaawwwwwww seeee?...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.

I can see how some things are done out of necessity, but I think that breathily moaning is a stylistic choice. As jakepriest points out, that "... more than they take, aaaahaaaaa...." makes me wonder how that got past everybody during recording.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 12:12:23 PM
Do you think it may also be in how it's recorded? Modern day mixing for DT is very different from back then.

Also, why are you not signing "rumborak" after each post? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 01, 2014, 01:09:41 PM
James' vocals are unnaturally breathy at times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 01, 2014, 01:12:53 PM
The breathy stuff isn't nearly as much of a problem for me as the fact that on the new album, almost everything that isn't breathy is sung with significant rasp but also a little bit of a nasal element as well (I don't know precisely how to describe it), like the Bridges in the Sky chorus but for every line of every song. I used to think that was on account of the vocal effects, and I think maybe some of it is, but after seeing Luna Park (where he even does it on ballads like BTS), I think that's just how he sings now. I think actually "more than they take" is an instance of this, not breathiness (and it's on Surrender to Reason, not The Bigger Picture which is the song jakepriest mentioned).

I mean, he still has a great voice, and this particular technique is good in moderation (before DT12 came out, I really loved the BITS chorus because of it), but it feels so overused at this point to me on account of the new album using it so much. I hope on the next album he pulls back on it some and just does some straight-ahead singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on March 01, 2014, 01:49:59 PM
I actually agree with a lot of what 425 said.

Dream Theater IS playing it safe right now. Or in other words, they've become pussies.

That being said, I've grown a new sort of love for the DT12 album after hearing it live. I really do like the "sing-along" elements there. Not to say it's new, really, but it feels very emphasized on this album. And OTBOA of course was amazing as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 01, 2014, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: 425 on March 01, 2014, 01:12:53 PM
I hope on the next album he pulls back on it some and just does some straight-ahead singing.
Agreed, especially since a lot of the breathy stuff is probably studio magic. Live, those lush breathy parts turn into basically whisper sounding singing. Funny, but ever since The Human Equation came out, I've felt James could be utilized so much better in DT. Since then, he's been utilized very much the same as ever, except now there's the solo albums adding to the evidence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 01, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
On Luna Park, there's times when he just breathes right into the mic and it distorts the sound. I don't mind the breathy stuff too much, but I think he's resorting to it, like with the BITS-chorus stuff, too often lately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 01, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.

I can see how some things are done out of necessity, but I think that breathily moaning is a stylistic choice. As jakepriest points out, that "... more than they take, aaaahaaaaa...." makes me wonder how that got past everybody during recording.
I like that little "aaaahaaa" a lot, reminds me of David Byron (Uriah Heep).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 01, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: 425 on March 01, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
On Luna Park, there's times when he just breathes right into the mic and it distorts the sound. I don't mind the breathy stuff too much, but I think he's resorting to it, like with the BITS-chorus stuff, too often lately.
I didn't realize it was his breathe distorting the sound, but that does make sense I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 01, 2014, 02:59:09 PM
Quote from: 425 on March 01, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
On Luna Park, there's times when he just breathes right into the mic and it distorts the sound.
Yeah, and I noticed the same thing during the first verse of Finally Free when I saw them live. I don't mind the breathy singing on albums, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 01, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on March 01, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.

I can see how some things are done out of necessity, but I think that breathily moaning is a stylistic choice. As jakepriest points out, that "... more than they take, aaaahaaaaa...." makes me wonder how that got past everybody during recording.
I like that little "aaaahaaa" a lot, reminds me of David Byron (Uriah Heep).

 :tup


I always find it funny when someone says, "I can't imagine how this got past everyone at the studio." Like there was no chance in hell they actually LIKED that particular decision and decided to go with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 01, 2014, 04:01:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 01, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on March 01, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.

I can see how some things are done out of necessity, but I think that breathily moaning is a stylistic choice. As jakepriest points out, that "... more than they take, aaaahaaaaa...." makes me wonder how that got past everybody during recording.
I like that little "aaaahaaa" a lot, reminds me of David Byron (Uriah Heep).

 :tup


I always find it funny when someone says, "I can't imagine how this got past everyone at the studio." Like there was no chance in hell they actually LIKED that particular decision and decided to go with it.

That's exactly what I though myself! I like that little part, it fits well the moment and compliments the riff to come.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 7deg_inner_happiness on March 01, 2014, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: wasteland on March 01, 2014, 04:01:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 01, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on March 01, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jamesman42 on March 01, 2014, 10:37:17 AM
Even though he has gotten better/healed up some, comparing him to his glory days makes them almost incomparable.

I can see how some things are done out of necessity, but I think that breathily moaning is a stylistic choice. As jakepriest points out, that "... more than they take, aaaahaaaaa...." makes me wonder how that got past everybody during recording.
I like that little "aaaahaaa" a lot, reminds me of David Byron (Uriah Heep).

 :tup


I always find it funny when someone says, "I can't imagine how this got past everyone at the studio." Like there was no chance in hell they actually LIKED that particular decision and decided to go with it.

That's exactly what I though myself! I like that little part, it fits well the moment and compliments the riff to come.

"In moments of pain
Where heart and mind collide
Self reflection
Helps me decide

I believe
The sacrifices in life
Give more than they take"

Myung's wisdom expressed through these lyrics are magical and revelatory.  IMO James could not have delivered this message in a better texture or tone.  It is indeed an "aha" moment.

STR absolutely kicks my ass (in a good way)!  As I see things, STR is PERFECT!

Now for some controversy related to STR:
The 4 second instrumental passage at the end of JP's solo (4:29-4:32) reminds me of the likes of Trey Anastasio and Phish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 01, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 01, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: 425 on March 01, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
On Luna Park, there's times when he just breathes right into the mic and it distorts the sound. I don't mind the breathy stuff too much, but I think he's resorting to it, like with the BITS-chorus stuff, too often lately.
I didn't realize it was his breathe distorting the sound, but that does make sense I guess.

I'm almost certain that's what it is. Listen to the beginning of The Spirit Carries On: he's singing that first line in an extraordinarily breathy manner, if you see the video he's very close to the microphone, and most of what we can hear on that line on the recording is just his breath obscuring practically everything else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 01, 2014, 11:05:01 PM
Quote from: 7deg_inner_happiness on March 01, 2014, 06:46:11 PM
"In moments of pain
Where heart and mind collide
Self reflection
Helps me decide

I believe
The sacrifices in life
Give more than they take"

Myung's wisdom expressed through these lyrics are magical and revelatory.  IMO James could not have delivered this message in a better texture or tone.  It is indeed an "aha" moment..

Errrrr... o_O?

I don't want to be a dick, but "I believe the sacrifices in life give more than they take" is as cliché as it can get.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on March 02, 2014, 12:36:53 AM
You know, I actually don't mind Labrie singing in that soft whispery way. At least not all the time, like mostly with the new album. He was great on Through Her Eyes. But there have been times where's it's bugged me, but IMO with The Looking Glass and Through Her Eyes they melodies and lyrics were just so perfect, him singing like that just made it better. At the same time, there were parts of ADTOE where Labrie's singing just made me go, 'really?.....dude..really? give it up man....'. I didn't say this aloud of course ;p...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 01, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: 425 on March 01, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
On Luna Park, there's times when he just breathes right into the mic and it distorts the sound. I don't mind the breathy stuff too much, but I think he's resorting to it, like with the BITS-chorus stuff, too often lately.
I didn't realize it was his breathe distorting the sound, but that does make sense I guess.

If you breathe into a microphone it will amplify your breath, obviously. You shouldn't really be breathing directly into the microphone. The issue is not a technical one with the technology or amplifying equipment. It's that his singing is extremely breathy. It's just not good vocal technique.

To be sure, there was indeed a technical problem, that night. But it wasn't with the set up or equipment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 02, 2014, 12:27:56 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you breathe into a microphone it will amplify your breath, obviously. You shouldn't really be breathing directly into the microphone. The issue is not a technical one with the technology or amplifying equipment. It's that his singing is extremely breathy. It's just not good vocal technique.

To be sure, there was indeed a technical problem, that night. But it wasn't with the set up or equipment.

Even when he's been breathy in the past, it wasn't that bad. If you want to call it bad vocal technique, that's fine, but the problem was amplified by the equipment. I believe someone already mentioned that it was most likely the overcompression that made it so problematic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 02, 2014, 03:42:16 PM
I think it's both actually. James decided to become more breathy because the heavy compression allowed him to use that breathiness then as a stylistic choice. And in earlier albums he used it sparingly to great effect. It's just that lately in any soft section he switches to that mode immediately. I don't think it's bad technique; it's just corny, and heavily overdone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 02, 2014, 04:39:15 PM
The only time when it's particularly bad for me is LaLP. The Silent Man sounds like someone put the audio of amateur porn through a distortion filter and edited it into the background.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 02, 2014, 06:07:45 PM
The end of Through Her Eyes is also "interesting" vocally, to say the least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 02, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
4/4 is so lame - i'm writing song in Pi / 16
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 02, 2014, 12:27:56 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
If you breathe into a microphone it will amplify your breath, obviously. You shouldn't really be breathing directly into the microphone. The issue is not a technical one with the technology or amplifying equipment. It's that his singing is extremely breathy. It's just not good vocal technique.

To be sure, there was indeed a technical problem, that night. But it wasn't with the set up or equipment.

Even when he's been breathy in the past, it wasn't that bad. If you want to call it bad vocal technique, that's fine, but the problem was amplified by the equipment. I believe someone already mentioned that it was most likely the overcompression that made it so problematic.

It's not about what I (personally) want to call it. It's what it is.

I agree the microphone amplified it. That's what a microphone does: amplifies whatever you put into it. It's pretty clear the softer dynamics of these songs are making him uncomfortable. The breathy vocal on the Blu-ray is a symptom of that. Another issue is that he is hanging on consonants entirely too long. As a vocalist you should not be sustaining consonants-- you sustains the vowels. Yet, when I listen to the Silent Man every consonant, is being sustained. "ppppprrrraaay they wont last" or "behind the stained glasssssss"

That is singing 101. If you took any basic chorus class or vocal lesson, and you sang like that, you would get corrected immediately.

The effect of the compression was minimal, if anything. The microphone didn't create anything that wasn't there. It just brought to the forefront a number of problems that were going to give you this end product no matter what.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 03, 2014, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
It's not about what I (personally) want to call it. It's what it is.

I agree the microphone amplified it. That's what a microphone does: amplifies whatever you put into it. It's pretty clear the softer dynamics of these songs are making him uncomfortable. The breathy vocal on the Blu-ray is a symptom of that. Another issue is that he is hanging on consonants entirely too long. As a vocalist you should not be sustaining consonants-- you sustains the vowels. Yet, when I listen to the Silent Man every consonant, is being sustained. "ppppprrrraaay they wont last" or "behind the stained glasssssss"

That is singing 101. If you took any basic chorus class or vocal lesson, and you sang like that, you would get corrected immediately.

The effect of the compression was minimal, if anything. The microphone didn't create anything that wasn't there. It just brought to the forefront a number of problems that were going to give you this end product no matter what.

First of all, are you saying that LaBrie's breathy vocals were more breathy than they ever have been? Because all the previous times he'd done breathy vocals, yes, they sounded breathy, but they still sounded like a vocalist singing breathy vocals. On Luna Park, it sounded very unnatural, so no, it wasn't JUST LaBrie that was the problem.

As for sustaining consonants over vowels, that's just laughable. I know some singes for how sustaining their consonants is their signature, it's what makes their style unique and it sounds just fine.
I know you don't like LaBrie as a vocalist, but this is just silly nitpicking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 03, 2014, 05:35:10 AM
How is that nit-picky? Do other people not hear how bad those S's sound on Live at Luna Park? Maybe not everyone detects it, but for me, it stops me from being able to listen to those songs.

I think both of you guys are right, to a degree. More recently, James HAS been doing a more whisper/breathy thing live. Extending the consonants while breathing heavy sounds like an apt description. However, I do think there was something weird going on with the sound on LALP, compression or something. So it's not ALL James or ALL the recording, but a bit of both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 03, 2014, 09:10:01 AM
Score was the last good DT live release so none of this breathy nonsense affects me in any way because I don't bother listening to any of the new live albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 03, 2014, 03:45:01 PM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 03, 2014, 05:35:10 AM
How is that nit-picky? Do other people not hear how bad those S's sound on Live at Luna Park? Maybe not everyone detects it, but for me, it stops me from being able to listen to those songs.

I think both of you guys are right, to a degree. More recently, James HAS been doing a more whisper/breathy thing live. Extending the consonants while breathing heavy sounds like an apt description. However, I do think there was something weird going on with the sound on LALP, compression or something. So it's not ALL James or ALL the recording, but a bit of both.

That's what I said.

To clarify, when I said nitpicky, I mean, the sheer concept of saying, "A singer shouldn't be extending his consonants, he should be extending his vowels, and any other way is wrong." I'm not saying that it was the best decision on James's part, in that particular instance, but to say as a rule that all singers must extend vowels, and not consonants, sounds like some artistically restricting BS to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YOWspotter on March 04, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
My controversial opinion:

A coworker of mine and I just realized we have similar musical interests.  He introduced me to Fates Warning, and specifically told me to listen to the first and last tracks off their latest release.

I find the track "And Yet It Moves" to be simply stunning; a "masterpiece" so-to-speak.  I can't think of any single track by DT that can top this.  As DT is my favourite band, it "pains" me to admit this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 04, 2014, 08:35:43 AM
Maybe you need a new favorite band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 04, 2014, 08:49:26 AM
Quote from: YOWspotter on March 04, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
My controversial opinion:

A coworker of mine and I just realized we have similar musical interests.  He introduced me to Fates Warning, and specifically told me to listen to the first and last tracks off their latest release.

I find the track "And Yet It Moves" to be simply stunning; a "masterpiece" so-to-speak.  I can't think of any single track by DT that can top this.  As DT is my favourite band, it "pains" me to admit this.

Eh, don't sweat it.  There is no rule that says your favorite band has to have your favorite song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2014, 08:50:46 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 01, 2014, 01:49:59 PM
Dream Theater IS playing it safe right now. Or in other words, they've become pussies.

Insulting band members is against forum rules.  Consider this your warning.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on March 04, 2014, 08:54:48 AM
Cool, I'll dress it up in nice language next time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YOWspotter on March 04, 2014, 08:56:02 AM
So to clarify, I put "pains" in quotations because it's not really that important to me.  i.e., I haven't been crying myself to sleep every night since making this discovery.

In this particular example, I feel that the other band is really exhibiting its maximum ability, whereas with DT, I don't feel that's happening.

Or maybe they are, and "others" are just that much better?  I don't know.  I must plead some ignorance since my musical interests aren't that vast.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 04, 2014, 09:05:04 AM
Quote from: YOWspotter on March 04, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
My controversial opinion:

A coworker of mine and I just realized we have similar musical interests.  He introduced me to Fates Warning, and specifically told me to listen to the first and last tracks off their latest release.

I find the track "And Yet It Moves" to be simply stunning; a "masterpiece" so-to-speak.  I can't think of any single track by DT that can top this.  As DT is my favourite band, it "pains" me to admit this.
And Yet It Moves is a fantastic song indeed :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2014, 09:05:30 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 04, 2014, 08:54:48 AM
Cool, I'll dress it up in nice language next time.

Or you could just drop the attitude and follow the forum rules.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 04, 2014, 09:06:11 AM
Quote from: ? on March 04, 2014, 09:05:04 AM
Quote from: YOWspotter on March 04, 2014, 08:33:28 AM
My controversial opinion:

A coworker of mine and I just realized we have similar musical interests.  He introduced me to Fates Warning, and specifically told me to listen to the first and last tracks off their latest release.

I find the track "And Yet It Moves" to be simply stunning; a "masterpiece" so-to-speak.  I can't think of any single track by DT that can top this.  As DT is my favourite band, it "pains" me to admit this.
And Yet It Moves is a fantastic song indeed :tup

That album has quite a few, actually.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 04, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 04, 2014, 08:50:46 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 01, 2014, 01:49:59 PM
Dream Theater IS playing it safe right now. Or in other words, they've become pussies.

Insulting band members is against forum rules.  Consider this your warning.

Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 04, 2014, 08:54:48 AM
Cool, I'll dress it up in nice language next time.

Who's the pussy now?!   :lol

Couldn't help myself. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the best Dream Theater song ever written
-The worst Dream Theater song written is any time Portnoy was singing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 04, 2014, 08:23:04 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 04, 2014, 08:49:26 AM
Eh, don't sweat it.  There is no rule that says your favorite band has to have your favorite song.

Yeah totally, I think it's safe to say Dream Theater is one of my favourite bands for consistency, musicianship and variety but a lot of my favourite songs of all time are one offs from bands that I never really got into, they just stumbled across a musical gem that clicked with me for one or two tracks and then they go back to their original direction or another direction that doesn't interest me. It happens to everyone.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
-The worst Dream Theater song written is any time Portnoy was singing


Oh hooray! Another Portnoy hater!  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 04, 2014, 08:53:02 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the best Dream Theater song ever written
-The worst Dream Theater song written is any time Portnoy was singing

I sure do hate that Fatal Tragedy. But nothing's worse than Home!

Also, I just pulled up the video Ministry of Lost Souls from Chaos In Motion because I was 99% sure that Mike sang on that track (though I knew the "drowning in the past" part was John), and Mike definitely sings with James, at least live, on the "Living in a world without you" line.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 04, 2014, 08:56:28 PM
I'm pretty sure it's James on the album, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 09:06:03 PM
If it included songs that MP sang on live, that wouldn't leave much at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 09:27:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
-The worst Dream Theater song written is any time Portnoy was singing


Oh hooray! Another Portnoy hater!  :\
Quote from: 425 on March 04, 2014, 08:53:02 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
-Ministry of Lost Souls is the best Dream Theater song ever written
-The worst Dream Theater song written is any time Portnoy was singing

I sure do hate that Fatal Tragedy. But nothing's worse than Home!

Also, I just pulled up the video Ministry of Lost Souls from Chaos In Motion because I was 99% sure that Mike sang on that track (though I knew the "drowning in the past" part was John), and Mike definitely sings with James, at least live, on the "Living in a world without you" line.  :lol

Portnoy probably sang on the album version, too.  I meant sections of music where he was contributing leads.  I just don't feel his voice was ever up to being on albums as a lead.  No disrespect meant.  His backing vocals, and harmonization skills, and understanding of complex harmony was always appreciated.  As a former contributing member of Dream Theater I most certainly do not hate Mike Portnoy.  He co-wrote some of the most bad ass Dream Theater songs in existence. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:09:50 PM
That MP's vocals weren't up to snuff is not exactly a controversial opinion. There's parts of LSFNY that are virtually unlistenable to because of his singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:11:07 PM
I find JLB's vocals much more bothersome than any of MP's on LSFNY. He sounds like a foghorn by the end of ACOS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 04, 2014, 10:13:30 PM
JLB was amazing on LSFNY.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:14:46 PM
LSFNY was the first time I'd ever heard DT live, and I was very letdown that JLB sounded nowhere near as good live as he did on the albums. By LTL/ACOS, he is sounding worn out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:36:05 PM
I actually just watched ACOS, and yeah the high notes are strained at the end. But fuck, other than that, it's safe to say that that was their heyday. They don't look like a biker gang yet, MP is busting his ass behind the kit, and JP looks normal still. Oh, and JR still looked like Rowlf from the Muppet Show. Oh the days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:37:42 PM
As much as I like LSFNY, it was also relatively sloppy for them. Budokan was a much better performance from them all around (even JLB, aside from PMU/ITNOG), and the video show didn't induce seizures. LSFNY was still climbing out of their dark period.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:42:34 PM
I couldn't possible consider anything pre-SDOIT their pinnacle, since that's missing out on their best album, and JLB was not great live in the FII-SDOIT era. I'd have to say ToT era, despite JP's haircut.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 04, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 09:27:36 PM
Portnoy probably sang on the album version, too.  I meant sections of music where he was contributing leads.  I just don't feel his voice was ever up to being on albums as a lead.  No disrespect meant.  His backing vocals, and harmonization skills, and understanding of complex harmony was always appreciated. As a former contributing member of Dream Theater I most certainly do not hate Mike Portnoy.  He co-wrote some of the most bad ass Dream Theater songs in existence. 

...Am I the only one who caught this? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 05, 2014, 12:09:26 AM
In LSFNY, they definitely gave it their all. MP almost played himself to death that night.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 05, 2014, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 04, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 09:27:36 PM
Portnoy probably sang on the album version, too.  I meant sections of music where he was contributing leads.  I just don't feel his voice was ever up to being on albums as a lead.  No disrespect meant.  His backing vocals, and harmonization skills, and understanding of complex harmony was always appreciated. As a former contributing member of Dream Theater I most certainly do not hate Mike Portnoy.  He co-wrote some of the most bad ass Dream Theater songs in existence. 

...Am I the only one who caught this? :lol

 :facepalm:

I have no further comment, ever again, about Mike Portnoy.  As a fan of Dream Theater I've really enjoyed his work all the way back to 1992. He's one of the best drummers in the world.  I wish him nothing but the best of luck in his music career.  That is all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 05, 2014, 12:36:39 AM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 05, 2014, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 04, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 09:27:36 PM
Portnoy probably sang on the album version, too.  I meant sections of music where he was contributing leads.  I just don't feel his voice was ever up to being on albums as a lead.  No disrespect meant.  His backing vocals, and harmonization skills, and understanding of complex harmony was always appreciated. As a former contributing member of Dream Theater I most certainly do not hate Mike Portnoy.  He co-wrote some of the most bad ass Dream Theater songs in existence. 

...Am I the only one who caught this? :lol

 :facepalm:

I have no further comment, ever again, about Mike Portnoy.  As a fan of Dream Theater I've really enjoyed his work all the way back to 1992. He's one of the best drummers in the world.  I wish him nothing but the best of luck in his music career.  That is all.

Oh, I now realize why I read that wrong. The way you phrased it made me think you referred to yourself as a former contributing member of Dream Theater. :rollin Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 05, 2014, 01:00:27 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:42:34 PM
I couldn't possible consider anything pre-SDOIT their pinnacle, since that's missing out on their best album, and JLB was not great live in the FII-SDOIT era. I'd have to say ToT era, despite JP's haircut.

well, pinnacle as a studio band does not necessarily translate into their pinnacle as a live band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 05, 2014, 01:02:07 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 05, 2014, 12:36:39 AM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 05, 2014, 12:16:06 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 04, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
Quote from: MinistryOfLostSouls on March 04, 2014, 09:27:36 PM
Portnoy probably sang on the album version, too.  I meant sections of music where he was contributing leads.  I just don't feel his voice was ever up to being on albums as a lead.  No disrespect meant.  His backing vocals, and harmonization skills, and understanding of complex harmony was always appreciated. As a former contributing member of Dream Theater I most certainly do not hate Mike Portnoy.  He co-wrote some of the most bad ass Dream Theater songs in existence. 

...Am I the only one who caught this? :lol

 :facepalm:

I have no further comment, ever again, about Mike Portnoy.  As a fan of Dream Theater I've really enjoyed his work all the way back to 1992. He's one of the best drummers in the world.  I wish him nothing but the best of luck in his music career.  That is all.

Oh, I now realize why I read that wrong. The way you phrased it made me think you referred to yourself as a former contributing member of Dream Theater. :rollin Sorry about that.

Are you serious? :lol If I contributed to Dream Theater's music do you how bad they would suck?  This wouldn't be a forum.  It would be an abandoned MySpace band profile from 2005.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 05, 2014, 01:29:46 AM
James may not have been at his best when they recorded Live Scenes, but I think his performance is easily better than on Budokan, Livetime and CIM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 05, 2014, 01:46:55 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.

Again hitting the nail on the head, rob. :tup

Quote from: erwinrafael on March 05, 2014, 01:00:27 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 04, 2014, 10:42:34 PM
I couldn't possible consider anything pre-SDOIT their pinnacle, since that's missing out on their best album, and JLB was not great live in the FII-SDOIT era. I'd have to say ToT era, despite JP's haircut.

well, pinnacle as a studio band does not necessarily translate into their pinnacle as a live band.

You're right, which is why I didn't say SDOIT era was their live pinnacle. ToT era is when JLB started to really improve live, plus they'd released all of my top DT albums by that point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 04:34:15 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.
On that note, here's a controversial opinion: I'll take that night's James, with less range but lots of bite and aggression, over the more recent guy, who meanders around stage pretty bored looking, but will nail a very quick, thin sounding F#.

That said, James is awful on some of the Scenes bootlegs I've heard, and he's awful on Bucharest, so I'm sure he's better overall today than he was at the turn of the millenium. But he really did bring some extra fire on that LSFNY recording.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 05, 2014, 05:18:45 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 04:34:15 AM
On that note, here's a controversial opinion: I'll take that night's James, with less range but lots of bite and aggression, over the more recent guy, who meanders around stage pretty bored looking, but will nail a very quick, thin sounding F#.
I like both. The energy on Live Scenes is indeed mesmerizing, but I also loved that short, powerful F# he hit on the Happy Holidays release. James has been great throughout the last tour, I wouldn't call this (and most of his) F#s weak: https://youtu.be/LfPSRb8btjA?t=6m50s
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 06:30:09 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on March 05, 2014, 05:18:45 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 04:34:15 AM
On that note, here's a controversial opinion: I'll take that night's James, with less range but lots of bite and aggression, over the more recent guy, who meanders around stage pretty bored looking, but will nail a very quick, thin sounding F#.
I like both. The energy on Live Scenes is indeed mesmerizing, but I also loved that short, powerful F# he hit on the Happy Holidays release. James has been great throughout the last tour, I wouldn't call this (and most of his) F#s weak: https://youtu.be/LfPSRb8btjA?t=6m50s
Eh, the F# is fine, but the notes leading up to it sound very strained and weak. There, the last "ah" on the second "woah" is especially thin. But that's how James has been for awhile. He usually hits the F# itself, but the lead in is not very good. I'll take the way it's sung on LSFNY (adapted to suit his range) any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 05, 2014, 06:52:02 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 06:30:09 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on March 05, 2014, 05:18:45 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on March 05, 2014, 04:34:15 AM
On that note, here's a controversial opinion: I'll take that night's James, with less range but lots of bite and aggression, over the more recent guy, who meanders around stage pretty bored looking, but will nail a very quick, thin sounding F#.
I like both. The energy on Live Scenes is indeed mesmerizing, but I also loved that short, powerful F# he hit on the Happy Holidays release. James has been great throughout the last tour, I wouldn't call this (and most of his) F#s weak: https://youtu.be/LfPSRb8btjA?t=6m50s
Eh, the F# is fine, but the notes leading up to it sound very strained and weak. There, the last "ah" on the second "woah" is especially thin. But that's how James has been for awhile. He usually hits the F# itself, but the lead in is not very good. I'll take the way it's sung on LSFNY (adapted to suit his range) any day.
I'd take both and really wouldn't pick one over the other. He handled it excellently on Live Scenes (I especially like the gritty ending of the scream), but it's also satisfying (moving even) to see that he can still hit that F# more than 20 year after it was recorded, recovering from the food poisoning incident, which at this point, almost looks like a blessing in disguise since it made him take better care of his voice. It's also obvious that at this age, James will take a more restrained approach to performing than 10-15 years ago. It's all part of their natural evolution, which is a joy to witness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 05, 2014, 10:15:51 AM
I've heard JLB do the F# last tour, in some youtube videos, and he sounded fantastic. Yes, it's gritty, and had a different kind of quality to it, but it was still powerful and quite awesome. But the version that they got on the Holiday release was just... weird... I have no idea what the hell that was. It was like a soccer player, getting a running start to try and kick the ball into the net, and instead the ball broke and deflated upon impact. Didn't dig it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.

Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".
LSFNY has a raw power that is IMHO unmatched by any other live DVD. They were doing a DVD for an album which at that point was only rivaled by IAW in popularity, and on top of that they were doing ACOS which had never been filmed properly before. You can see their desire to make that performance *the* filmed performance of their lives.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 05, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
It was after LSFNY that the ultimatum was delivered???  REALLY?   I thought that was a huge return to form!   Because to me, the absolute lowest possible point in JLB's entire career with DT came with OIALT.     I was actually embarrassed for him.     FII had been somewhat of a letdown when it came out, but I really thought (at the time) that OIALT would be the nail in the coffin for the band.     JLB just ruins that album...I can't even listen to it, and to this day I don't even get how they didn't just scrap the entire album.   

Every live album since has been a MASSIVE improvement over OIALT.

EDIT: IMO...JP's comments on the video turned out to be quite prophetic.... "This is going to be the worst EVER..."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 05, 2014, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM


Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".
LSFNY has a raw power that is IMHO unmatched by any other live DVD. They were doing a DVD for an album which at that point was only rivaled by IAW in popularity, and on top of that they were doing ACOS which had never been filmed properly before. You can see their desire to make that performance *the* filmed performance of their lives.

Amen to that. 

In regards to set lists, LSFNY is by far the best of any DT live DVD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.

Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".
LSFNY has a raw power that is IMHO unmatched by any other live DVD. They were doing a DVD for an album which at that point was only rivaled by IAW in popularity, and on top of that they were doing ACOS which had never been filmed properly before. You can see their desire to make that performance *the* filmed performance of their lives.
No, I sort of get you - the F#'s overhyped, but I think it's a useful marker. It's not like missing that note was a freak accident in an otherwise incredible evening, it was perfectly well foreshadowed. I do get what you mean, there is a drive and the necessity to the performance, but it's not something I massively miss or even find particularly lacking in subsequent DVDs. I don't think the best art necessarily comes from suffering, and I think their best performances and albums can be found elsewhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 05, 2014, 10:21:41 PM
Whether the F# is overhyped or not, what JLB did on LSFNY instead was a huge letdown. He couldn't do it, then he had to wail over the guitar solo to kick you while you were down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 10:33:30 PM
Oh well, I guess I must be the only one. I still prefer his singing back then over today. For one he hadn't started doing that über-wide vibrato yet, nor the breathing stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on March 05, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
LSFNY was Dream Theater at their Peak x__x
Great live DVD!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 05, 2014, 11:33:08 PM
Quote from: adastra on March 05, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
LSFNY was Dream Theater at their Peak x__x
Great live DVD!

I would say great performances and great concert, but the DVD is a letdown. Not having the full set, plus all the psychedelic stuff, and unneeded video filters really bring it down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 06, 2014, 07:33:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 05, 2014, 10:21:41 PM
Whether the F# is overhyped or not, what JLB did on LSFNY instead was a huge letdown. He couldn't do it, then he had to wail over the guitar solo to kick you while you were down.

Exactly.

My reaction to hearing that section the first time I listened to LSFNY was something like....Okay he couldn't hit the F#, long night, tough set list, his voice wasn't in great shape back then... that's cool I guess, at least JP is going to rip my face off with this amazing guitar solo... Yeah! oh, wait... what is that!? He's singing over top that guitar solo.... Seriously...

If he couldn't hit the F# that night, that's fine, that's the way it is. But don't cover up that amazing solo after the fact to try to make up for it.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 06, 2014, 09:19:56 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 05, 2014, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 04, 2014, 10:39:52 PM
To each their own. To me, SFAM and LSFNY, despite the sketchy video editing, is for me the absolute pinnacle of the band. It was just now a joy watching them perform that tune.
Whuh? He can't even hit the F#! Not that I'm saying that's terrible and irredeemable in itself - most mortals can't, and he still delivers a credible performance - but surely that places them a fair distance away from their own personal pinnacles? LSfNY is food poisoning central - they delivered him an ultimatum in the next album cycle.

Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".
LSFNY has a raw power that is IMHO unmatched by any other live DVD. They were doing a DVD for an album which at that point was only rivaled by IAW in popularity, and on top of that they were doing ACOS which had never been filmed properly before. You can see their desire to make that performance *the* filmed performance of their lives.

I wouldn't go quite as far a you, but I mostly agree.  The versions of LTL and ACOS on LSFNY are, IMO, easily the best ever recorded by a large margin.  I've said it before, and I will continue to defend this position:  James' note choice on LTL was excellent.  He chose notes that were on key and fit the song rather than going for a note he couldn't hit and going off key.  That's just solid, smart singing.  And the choice to add in the vamping harmony part afterward from the original demo version was a very nice touch as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 06, 2014, 11:09:16 AM
Oh, it's smart! I don't dispute that it's smart. But it's a smart choice precisely because his voice, that years, was both weaker than it had been and weaker than it would one day become.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on March 06, 2014, 11:21:23 AM
I love that he did the singing over the guitar solo.  When I heard it in the demo, it was so exciting and engaging.

Quote from: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM
Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".

I don't think so.  They wrote the song without a singer, and in the demo you can tell they wanted something in there.  God forbid they make it one of the most exciting and iconic moments of the their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 06, 2014, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on March 06, 2014, 11:21:23 AM
I love that he did the singing over the guitar solo.  When I heard it in the demo, it was so exciting and engaging.

I wouldn't say it's such an amazing guitar solo, that it has to be heard absolutely without interruptions anyway. Honestly, that guitar solo, to me, felt like it was just winding people down after the F#. Like a cool down.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 06, 2014, 06:14:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks JLB now sounds better than ever? At least live. I loved his voice on the I&W era, but he used to over scream a lot, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but his technique wasn't as good as it is now IMHO, despite his voice obviously being weaker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 06, 2014, 06:30:47 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 06, 2014, 06:14:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks JLB now sounds better than ever? At least live. I loved his voice on the I&W era, but he used to over scream a lot, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but his technique wasn't as good as it is now IMHO, despite his voice obviously being weaker.

NO...you are NOT the only one.   I absolutely agree 100% with ALL of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 06, 2014, 10:07:59 PM
For me it's a toss-up. He may have "caught himself" these days, but he also acquired some things in his singing I really don't think are good. His vibrato for example is totally off the wall these days, and the breathy singing is another one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 06, 2014, 11:09:33 PM
Quote from: jammindude on March 06, 2014, 06:30:47 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 06, 2014, 06:14:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks JLB now sounds better than ever? At least live. I loved his voice on the I&W era, but he used to over scream a lot, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but his technique wasn't as good as it is now IMHO, despite his voice obviously being weaker.
NO...you are NOT the only one.   I absolutely agree 100% with ALL of this.
Me too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on March 07, 2014, 05:37:23 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 05, 2014, 11:00:39 AM
Frankly, and this is probably DTF anathema, I care very little about that stupid F#. It's one note they stuck into the song out of mere "because James can sing it".
LSFNY has a raw power that is IMHO unmatched by any other live DVD. They were doing a DVD for an album which at that point was only rivaled by IAW in popularity, and on top of that they were doing ACOS which had never been filmed properly before. You can see their desire to make that performance *the* filmed performance of their lives.

Eh, I prefer OIALT/5YIALT in terms of rawness. The whole thing is a bit slapdash and sloppy but it's fun as hell. I'm probably also mistaking fun for power.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 08, 2014, 04:09:34 AM
I am amazed at how few people agree with me in calling LALP the best JOB performance since 94 in terms of clarity and healthy power.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 08, 2014, 06:20:03 AM
Quote from: wasteland on March 08, 2014, 04:09:34 AM
I am amazed at how few people agree with me in calling LALP the best JOB performance since 94 in terms of clarity and healthy power.


I also agree! Score was a little more perfect performance-wise, but his voice is VERY clean-sounding there, where LALP is a little more gritty, powerful and raw.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 08, 2014, 06:43:39 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 08, 2014, 06:20:03 AM
Quote from: wasteland on March 08, 2014, 04:09:34 AM
I am amazed at how few people agree with me in calling LALP the best JOB performance since 94 in terms of clarity and healthy power.
I also agree! Score was a little more perfect performance-wise, but his voice is VERY clean-sounding there, where LALP is a little more gritty, powerful and raw.
:iagree:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 08, 2014, 06:52:42 AM
JOB = JLB ?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 08, 2014, 06:54:01 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2014, 06:52:42 AM
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 08, 2014, 06:57:59 AM
Quote from: wasteland on March 08, 2014, 04:09:34 AM
I am amazed at how few people agree with me in calling LALP the best JOB performance since 94 in terms of clarity and healthy power.
If I've not said it, it's only because I didn't think it much needed stating! I mean, I think the default position must be that it's between Luna Park and Score, and I agree, I think he does more interesting stuff on LaLP. Plus, the setlist's miles better.

(Although the climax of Octavarium is an utterly incredible moment, more notable than any single part of Luna Park.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on March 08, 2014, 07:00:53 AM
For me it's easily Score, since, as I have said earlier in this thread, I'm not crazy about his new technique. He's now using too much grit for my taste, and often grit in sections that I would rather hear without it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 08, 2014, 07:19:28 AM
Quote from: 425 on March 08, 2014, 07:00:53 AM
For me it's easily Score, since, as I have said earlier in this thread, I'm not crazy about his new technique. He's now using too much grit for my taste, and often grit in sections that I would rather hear without it.

I see your point, although I personally like that. The only time I think he could use more is on The Shattered Fortress. Early in this tour it didn't sound very good, although the more recent shows sound a lot better, even without the grit he employed on the album, so I got used to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 08, 2014, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 08, 2014, 06:54:01 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2014, 06:52:42 AM
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.

I do believe that's Irish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 08, 2014, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 08, 2014, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 08, 2014, 06:54:01 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2014, 06:52:42 AM
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.

I do believe that's Irish.
Yeah, I would think that the Scottish should be McBrie or something like that :P.

I'd take Luna Park JLB over Score any day of the week. His voice at Score still suffers from James' cat-when-you-try-to-put-it-in-water syndrome from time to time. Too screechy for my taste. He did a good job on the more melodic tracks though. I think the ideal JLB would be the melodic Score + raw Luna Park. Of course, the perfect James was right after they released Awake, that food poisoning I think it's one of the tragic events in music history :'(. On the other hand, if it weren't for that we probably wouldn't get this version, who also rawks, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise in the long run...

My whole point is that James now, while he doesn't impress that much, he is more more solid overall these days than ever, his high notes are great for dramatic effects, but when they become regular stuff you want to kill him ASAP. In that regard, his job at Illumination Theory is a strong candidate for a nomination at 'best studio performance in DT ever', he does everything in the dosage requiered, no more, no less. Badass, melodic, raw, high notes, all in the appropiate places.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 08, 2014, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Evermind on February 15, 2014, 12:01:43 PM
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 09, 2014, 04:07:25 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 08, 2014, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Evermind on February 15, 2014, 12:01:43 PM
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.

Did it last?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 09, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
I actually quite enjoy SC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 09, 2014, 08:17:30 AM
SC has faded for me over time.  I play it a lot less then other DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 09, 2014, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 03, 2014, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 02, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
It's not about what I (personally) want to call it. It's what it is.

I agree the microphone amplified it. That's what a microphone does: amplifies whatever you put into it. It's pretty clear the softer dynamics of these songs are making him uncomfortable. The breathy vocal on the Blu-ray is a symptom of that. Another issue is that he is hanging on consonants entirely too long. As a vocalist you should not be sustaining consonants-- you sustains the vowels. Yet, when I listen to the Silent Man every consonant, is being sustained. "ppppprrrraaay they wont last" or "behind the stained glasssssss"

That is singing 101. If you took any basic chorus class or vocal lesson, and you sang like that, you would get corrected immediately.

The effect of the compression was minimal, if anything. The microphone didn't create anything that wasn't there. It just brought to the forefront a number of problems that were going to give you this end product no matter what.

First of all, are you saying that LaBrie's breathy vocals were more breathy than they ever have been? Because all the previous times he'd done breathy vocals, yes, they sounded breathy, but they still sounded like a vocalist singing breathy vocals. On Luna Park, it sounded very unnatural, so no, it wasn't JUST LaBrie that was the problem.

As for sustaining consonants over vowels, that's just laughable. I know some singes for how sustaining their consonants is their signature, it's what makes their style unique and it sounds just fine.
I know you don't like LaBrie as a vocalist, but this is just silly nitpicking.

I am not totally sure what the point in your first paragraph is. Is it that because it was worse on that particular night it must have been due to a problem with the equipment? He has sung that way in the past, and on that particular night it was far more prominent during songs in which he tried to sing with softer dynamics (i.e., the slower pieces in the set list). It does not logically follow that there was some "unnatural" element making it worse. Nor does it sound that way.

In regard to the second paragraph, the laughable part, really, is that you think this is some obscure standard I've arbitrarily demanded he adhere to. In fact, it is really something that vocalists learn in Singing 101 or in any formal instruction. It isn't something I invented or plucked out of thin air to be "nitpicky." It is a basic "rule" of our singing traditions, that in order to get a clear sustained sound, you sing VOWELS, not consonants. Try singing an A and then a K. You'll see what I mean. No doubt there are times when "breaking the rules" is artistically freeing/desirable/innovative etc. But it can also be just bad delivery and technique-- and it ends up ruining the performance. Unfortunately, it is unequivocally clear that this is not one of those times when it's just artistry.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 09, 2014, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 09, 2014, 02:17:13 PM
I am not totally sure what the point in your first paragraph is. Is it that because it was worse on that particular night it must have been due to a problem with the equipment? He has sung that way in the past, and on that particular night it was far more prominent during songs in which he tried to sing with softer dynamics (i.e., the slower pieces in the set list). It does not logically follow that there was some "unnatural" element making it worse. Nor does it sound that way.
But it does. He's done plenty of breathy singing in the past, and while yes, it has always sounded breathy, it never sounded like he was blowing actual air into the microphone. This was the only time I've ever heard where the breath actually sounded like it was muting the notes he was singing, so yes, I have to conclude that that particular effect was the result of the equipment, and not because James decided for the first time ever to actually blow air right into the microphone.
Considering that he sounded just fine singing those songs and quiet parts, when I've seen them live during that tour.

In fact, listen to the Happy Holidays release, and listen to Through My Words. He's still breathy on it, but it doesn't sound nearly as bad as the LALP release. So there ya go.

Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 09, 2014, 02:17:13 PM
No doubt there are times when "breaking the rules" is artistically freeing/desirable/innovative etc. But it can also be just bad delivery and technique-- and it ends up ruining the performance. Unfortunately, it is unequivocally clear that this is not one of those times when it's just artistry.

Well, regardless whether you chalk it up to artistry or bad technique, I don't think he did anything during that performance to "ruin" it. That's why I said you're being nitpicky about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 11, 2014, 07:48:53 AM
Quote from: wasteland on March 09, 2014, 04:07:25 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 08, 2014, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: Evermind on February 15, 2014, 12:01:43 PM
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.

Did it last?

yea it did actually. I find that it's a good all around album. The nineties albums sound a bit too dated for me and most of the current albums feel like a chore to listen through all the way. SC has a good flow and a good collection of songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on March 11, 2014, 08:04:57 AM
I'm a JLB fan. He's an great singist and seems like a really fun, stand up guy

But!

There is no forgiving how he pronounces the word "wait" from the line "And sometimes all I want to do is wait" during surrounded on LALP. He manages somehow to say it with a silent "h". Whhhait.

Any Family Guy fans must surely be familiar with Stewies pronunciation of "CoolWhip"

Same thing. Quite irritating once you notice it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 11, 2014, 08:06:51 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on March 11, 2014, 08:04:57 AM
I'm a JLB fan. He's an great singist I'd seems like a really fun, stand up guy

But!

There is no forgiving how he pronounces the word "wait" from the line "And sometimes all I want to do is wait" during surrounded on LALP. He manages somehow to say it with a silent "h". Whhhait.

Any Family Guy fans must surely be familiar with Stewies pronunciation of "CoolWhip"

Same thing. Quite irritating once you notice it.

 Whill Whheaton!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 11, 2014, 08:21:47 AM
WWAAAIIIIM ALIVE AGAIN
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 11, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 11, 2014, 08:21:47 AM
WWAAAIIIIM ALIVE AGAIN

Or for the OIALT fans:  WWWAAAIREMEMBER A TIME.... MY FRAIL VIRGIN MAIND...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 11, 2014, 02:33:07 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 11, 2014, 08:21:47 AM
WWAAAIIIIM ALIVE AGAIN
(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q281/firstmanin55/DT.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 11, 2014, 03:19:11 PM
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 11, 2014, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Onno on March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 11, 2014, 11:12:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 11, 2014, 03:19:11 PM
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.

Never had a problem with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 12, 2014, 12:21:40 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 11, 2014, 11:12:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 11, 2014, 03:19:11 PM
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.

Never had a problem with it.

Me neither. I will admit, JLB has a a weird voice, but for me it's in a good way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 12, 2014, 12:54:28 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 12, 2014, 12:21:40 AM
Me neither. I will admit, JLB has a a weird voice, but for me it's in a good way.

His voice is like progressive music. It takes a while to get used to, but once you are used to it, it's just the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 12, 2014, 05:56:56 AM
Quote from: Invisible on March 11, 2014, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Onno on March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr
:lol

Speaking of the Luna Park version of TROAE, the way he says "envious" in the second verse is pretty ridiculous (in a good way).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 12, 2014, 09:55:54 AM
Quote from: Onno on March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous

I know, I was what the hell, its like he made the switch from the I to Am more easier.

That there is how I feel about the loud buzzing in LTL on the holiday release, its a great performance but once that part hits, it hurts my ears, and is unbearable. The worst part of the holiday release is that buzz.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 12, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.

Unfortunately, someone in the band decided the song needed to go into "epic world domination mode" for the tour, so Labrie smacks you in the face with some notes he can barely sing and then Petrucci does a unison on the melody with Jordan and then wanks around (and often meanders into the wrong key, btw). Ugh  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 12, 2014, 08:32:10 PM
Space-Dye Vest is just another song. They extend and expand and play around with other songs as they wish, and Space-Dye Vest shouldn't be exempt from it, if they want to do something creative with it.

That being said, you are well within your rights to dislike it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 12, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway. I mean, I'll probably still enjoy it when I see it in a few weeks, but from what I've heard off YouTube, it's almost more of a cover song then anything else. So, from that angle I probably won't even mind if they wail it out at the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 13, 2014, 12:32:35 AM
Space-Dye Vest is my favorite DT song and I was slightly concerned when I heard about the changes they've made to the ending, but they didn't bother me when I saw them play it. Actually, I always thought that if SDV ever got played live, JP could play the string melody on guitar since Jordan would have to play the piano part at the same time. Of course JP adds a bit of shred into it, but not too much and it doesn't ruin the song IMO. I'd say this version is a million times more tasteful than the 2007 wankfest version of Surrounded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 13, 2014, 01:02:37 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 12, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.


It's a good ending to a studio album. It's not a good ending to a song that is in the middle of a live set, where you would entice the audience to applaud.

Context is the key.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 13, 2014, 02:08:19 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 12, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.
...and they've already done that, and done that perfectly, and committed it to CD!

Everyone always feared that Space Dye Vest wouldn't transfer to a live environment. I think those fears proved largely unfounded, and they've generally done an excellent job, but I can imagine that ending, which sounds huge and climactic on the album, wouldn't sound so magical in the context of three hours' keyboard wizardry. There's a way that it sounds, which isn't necessarily down to the notes played - Blind Faith has the same thing, where there's a sort of aura about it that's in its mix and its warmth as much as any of the notes played, and they've never quite been able to reproduce it live.

To put it another way - why make an inferior copy when you might be able to achieve something that's incredible in its own right? When the live album comes out, for some people that's going to be the definitive version of SDV.  It's going to miss its mark for others - yourself included, regrettably! - but I don't think there's much point in slavishly replicating a song like Space Dye note for note, and I think they've made it sound more Dream Theater and more a part of the album without betraying the soul of the original.

Quote from: rumborak on March 12, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway.
Cripes, really? You think it takes a level of musical intelligence beyond John Petrucci to appreciate a song as deep and sophisticated as Space-Dye Vest, and you think you are that musical intelligence? They don't sit about listening to music that sounds like Dream Theater all day long - they've got range, and breadth of taste! SDV is well within that remit. If they didn't understand it, I'm not sure why you think they'd have put it on Awake ahead of Eve.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2014, 04:29:34 AM
Quote from: Invisible on March 11, 2014, 10:03:34 PM
Quote from: Onno on March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr

This is the reason I don't listen to Luna Parks version of TROAE, but I think you just made it better for me.. I can deal with the AYYY now.  :yarr  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 13, 2014, 02:08:19 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 12, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway.
Cripes, really? You think it takes a level of musical intelligence beyond John Petrucci to appreciate a song as deep and sophisticated as Space-Dye Vest, and you think you are that musical intelligence? They don't sit about listening to music that sounds like Dream Theater all day long - they've got range, and breadth of taste! SDV is well within that remit. If they didn't understand it, I'm not sure why you think they'd have put it on Awake ahead of Eve.

Let me give you a family pack of chill pills:

 :chill :chill :chill
 :chill :chill :chill
 :chill :chill :chill

In my ever-so-humble opinion, JR is the main offender in not being able to play the song "correctly". The song calls for an mood that I have *never* heard in any other DT song: lethargy. The kind of lethargy you experience when you broke up with somebody. SDV on CD captures this emotion perfectly, but when hearing the JLB+JR version a while ago, I have to be honest and say: JR can not play it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 08:51:02 AM
In my ever-so-humble opinion, JR is the main offender in not being able to play the song "correctly". The song calls for an mood that I have *never* heard in any other DT song: lethargy. The kind of lethargy you experience when you broke up with somebody. SDV on CD captures this emotion perfectly, but when hearing the JLB+JR version a while ago, I have to be honest and say: JR can not play it.

But again, whether he can or not, I have to go back to what erwinrafael and rob said. Even if JR could (and I'm not saying he can't) play it and capture the lethargic mood of it that it was on the album, would he even want to do something like that?
It's not the 90s anymore, and concert halls aren't packed with a bunch of depressed people, looking to hear depressing music. Heck, even in the 90s, that wasn't DT's crowd. So had the song captured its original intention at the very end of an epic Dream Theater concert, it would do a pretty good job of depressing a crowd of people that just had a fantastic time.
Now, I'm not saying a song can't be dramatic, or that the end of a concert has to capture a happy mood or anything, but even something like ITNOG, while it might be a song about horrible things and while it does have a solemn, desperate chorus, it's still very epic and anthemic in a way. And I feel like that's what DT is doing with SDV in this case. They're 'converting' it into a proper live format in order to still deliver the song we all know, but to give it some LIFE. Because the original, really does do a good job of making you feel so numb you're almost dead.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 10:07:57 AM
LOL at thinking you have to be a depressed person to enjoy Space Dye Vest. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 10:07:57 AM
LOL at thinking you have to be a depressed person to enjoy Space Dye Vest.


. <--- The point is here, and you hit way the hell over there ------->
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 10:22:09 AM
I know what your point was, but there was too much fail in it overall to address it all, so I went for the one-line reply.  Besides, you saying, "It's not the 90s anymore, and concert halls aren't packed with a bunch of depressed people, looking to hear depressing music," all but implied that you have to be depressed to enjoy the song, so my reply was not out of bounds or off point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:27:48 AM
What I meant was that Space-Dye Vest, as it is on the album is a depressing song. And the audiences of the 90s were looking for that sort of thing in Grunge music. But like I said, that wasn't even DT's crowd. People don't go to DT concerts to hear depressing music, they want to hear something epic and empowering, and in its original format, Space-Dye Vest is none of those things. Now, playing a sad song like Disappear is one thing, but like rumbroak said, SDV is outright lethargic. I don't want to go to a concert and hear a song that makes me feel like I just went through a breakup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 13, 2014, 10:29:51 AM
I would go to a DT concert to hear DT songs.

SDV is a DT song.

I would want to hear it.



/impeccable logic
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 10:30:40 AM
Since when do you represent DT's crowd as a whole?  How do you know what every DT fan wants to hear at each concert? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:35:58 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 10:30:40 AM
Since when do you represent DT's crowd as a whole?  How do you know what every DT fan wants to hear at each concert?

I don't represent DT's crowd as a whole, but at the same time, I'm not the one making the decision to play Space-Dye Vest the way they're playing it. Obviously they think it will be more enjoyable for the audience if they made it a bit more elaborate at the end, so there you have it. And I agree with their decision. If I wanted to hear an album-perfect rendition of a song, I'd listen to the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 13, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
I have been a DT fanboy since Oct 1992 and I disagree with your assessment of SDV on every possible level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: jammindude on March 13, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
I have been a DT fanboy since Oct 1992 and I disagree with your assessment of SDV on every possible level.

Okay, well given your longevity as a DT fan, tell me something, how did you feel back then, when they played Wait For Sleep and they made the ending of that a little heavier and rock oriented? Or The Silent Man when, again, they turned it into more of a jazzy rock song as opposed to an acoustic one?

Because that's exactly what's happening with Space-Dye Vest now, and like I said, I don't see why it should be exempt from such a treatment, if that's what they want to do with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 11:10:38 AM
I've been a fan since '93, yet I've never liked them rocking up the Silent Man the way they used to.  The original arrangement, which they brought back on the last tour, was absolutely perfect.  I didn't like them adding drums to Wait for Sleep either.  Songs like those and Space Dye Vest, if put in the right spot in a set list, can be a great dynamic shift from the rocking and epic tunes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 11:12:52 AM
Well, I always enjoyed those interpretations. Same with the extended solo and heavier ending on Hollow Years that they've done on OIALT and Budokan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 13, 2014, 11:13:56 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:54:00 AM
Quote from: jammindude on March 13, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
I have been a DT fanboy since Oct 1992 and I disagree with your assessment of SDV on every possible level.

Okay, well given your longevity as a DT fan, tell me something, how did you feel back then, when they played Wait For Sleep and they made the ending of that a little heavier and rock oriented? Or The Silent Man when, again, they turned it into more of a jazzy rock song as opposed to an acoustic one?

Because that's exactly what's happening with Space-Dye Vest now, and like I said, I don't see why it should be exempt from such a treatment, if that's what they want to do with it.

Varied.   What they did with WfS was not really too over the top.   The band just added a bit of texture, but by the end of the song, it ended pretty much the same way it ended on the album (before going into Surrounded). 

Silent Man is different because I've seen it both ways.   When they did it on the Awake tour, they did it acoustically, and MP came out from behind the drum kit and played some bongos.   I actually really liked it.   It had a really intimate feel to it, and I thought it worked.   But then I liked the bombastic version on LSFNY for its own different reasons.     I think both approaches can be pulled off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 01:19:44 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
It's not the 90s anymore, and concert halls aren't packed with a bunch of depressed people, looking to hear depressing music.

I take it you don't listen to Porcupine Tree. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 01:19:44 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
It's not the 90s anymore, and concert halls aren't packed with a bunch of depressed people, looking to hear depressing music.

I take it you don't listen to Porcupine Tree. :lol

That would definitely be a correct assessment.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
Well, given the popularity of PT and Steven Wilson, I think it should be rather obvious there *are* a lot of people who have no problem with "depressing" music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 13, 2014, 01:44:33 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
Well, given the popularity of PT and Steven Wilson, I think it should be rather obvious there *are* a lot of people who have no problem with "depressing" music.

But is it 'depressing' because it's dark and dramatic and minor? Or is it outright angsty like SDV?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 02:15:14 PM
Dude, seriously, I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Is it that moody music overall is a thing of the past, and these days nobody likes it anymore? Then I would say, you might want to expand your horizons a little bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 13, 2014, 02:25:17 PM
That's kind of what I was thinking.  A lot of Pink Floyd's most popular music back in the 70s was anything but happy, yet it was some of the most popular rock music ever.  The idea that depressing music is listened to by depressed people, or whatever, is pure nonsense.  Almost everyone who knows me would describe me (among other things :lol) as being pretty upbeat and happy, yet somehow I love Floyd, PT, Space Dye Vest, etc.  OMG, HOW CAN THAT BE?  ??? ??? :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 02:15:14 PM
Dude, seriously, I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Is it that moody music overall is a thing of the past, and these days nobody likes it anymore? Then I would say, you might want to expand your horizons a little bit.

I'm not trying to make any point, I'm just asking you out of curiosity because I'm not familiar with PT's music.

Here, I couldn't afford a family pack:

 :chill
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 02:46:13 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 08:51:02 AM
In my ever-so-humble opinion, JR is the main offender in not being able to play the song "correctly". The song calls for an mood that I have *never* heard in any other DT song: lethargy. The kind of lethargy you experience when you broke up with somebody. SDV on CD captures this emotion perfectly, but when hearing the JLB+JR version a while ago, I have to be honest and say: JR can not play it.

But the live version being played now is completely different from the JLB+JR version a few years back.  That was a solo piano performance, and the keyboard part as played on the record is positively boring -- it really only makes sense in the context of the recording, which has all the samples, and the sound effects, and all the other instruments to provide contrast and ambiance.  Playing the piano part exactly as written at that performance would've sounded incredibly silly -- JR was right to ham it up a bit there.  I don't know what you've heard of the live performances this year, but JR hasn't really been embellishing KM's part at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 13, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 02:10:54 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2014, 01:43:29 PM
Well, given the popularity of PT and Steven Wilson, I think it should be rather obvious there *are* a lot of people who have no problem with "depressing" music.

But is it 'depressing' because it's dark and dramatic and minor? Or is it outright angsty like SDV?

Listen to Heartattck in a Layby, and Feel So Low. The latter song is more Space-Dye Vesty
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polis on March 13, 2014, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 24, 2014, 12:25:27 PM
Oh, and some random thought that just came to me(and perhaps my first real controversial opinion here): I think if the DT catalog(aside from WDADU) were released backwards instead of how it is, I&W would've gotten A LOT of hate instead of the praise it gets :P("that Metropolis middle section is awful and it drags the whole down" comes to mind :P). Sometimes I think some DT albums gets hated just for having DT name on it, among fans and non fans, and their only fault is being compared to the other albums.
Well, obviously the music scene nowadays is pretty different than from 30 years ago, so that's a given, and the reason why everyone praises images is because that was a foundational album of prog metal. Pretty dumb idea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 13, 2014, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Invisible on February 24, 2014, 12:25:27 PM
Oh, and some random thought that just came to me(and perhaps my first real controversial opinion here): I think if the DT catalog(aside from WDADU) were released backwards instead of how it is, I&W would've gotten A LOT of hate instead of the praise it gets :P("that Metropolis middle section is awful and it drags the whole down" comes to mind :P). Sometimes I think some DT albums gets hated just for having DT name on it, among fans and non fans, and their only fault is being compared to the other albums.

Hm... no.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
To elaborate on my original point;

I have no problem with DT changing songs up to make it more "concert-friendly". Sometimes it works (Hollow Years), sometimes it doesn't (Space Dye Vest imo). I personally think the song (as it was on the album) would have worked fine in a live situation. Not every song needs a soaring guitar solo at the end. The fact that they changed one of my favorite DT moments into something (again my opinion) inferior. I'm a positive person though, so maybe the live ending will come across better in person at the concert.

I also think Rudess plays it fine. I put all the blame on JLB and JR haha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
I'm a positive person though, so maybe the live ending will come across better in person at the concert.

Well, I hope we get a chance to find out. Hopefully they didn't switch up their setlist too much for the North American leg... Just one more week, then we find out!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
I'm a positive person though, so maybe the live ending will come across better in person at the concert.

Well, I hope we get a chance to find out. Hopefully they didn't switch up their setlist too much for the North American leg... Just one more week, then we find out!

They will not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 09:49:03 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
I'm a positive person though, so maybe the live ending will come across better in person at the concert.

Well, I hope we get a chance to find out. Hopefully they didn't switch up their setlist too much for the North American leg... Just one more week, then we find out!

They will not.

People keep saying this, and I hope they are right (and suspect they are), but I'm going to chuckle a bit if it's changed up a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
Well, find something else to chuckle about, because it won't be changed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 10:02:47 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
Well, find something else to chuckle about, because it won't be changed.

Source?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on March 13, 2014, 10:17:29 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 13, 2014, 10:02:47 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 13, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
Well, find something else to chuckle about, because it won't be changed.

Source?
In a recent interview with Rudess, he said they won't change the setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 14, 2014, 05:28:47 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(

The tour is not over in April. There's a second EU leg coming!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 14, 2014, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(

More fresh material for the next tour....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2014, 10:13:30 AM
Quote from: jammindude on March 14, 2014, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(

More fresh material for the next tour....

The Bigger Picture and Behind The Veil.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 14, 2014, 11:07:32 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2014, 10:13:30 AM
The Bigger Picture and Behind The Veil.

Man, I would love to see both of those songs played live. I think both would kill!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
I think any DT12 song would work better live than TLG. No idea why they chose that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 11:40:38 AM
I thought they'd swap out some of the new songs but it looks like that won't happen;

You know they HAVE to play Enemy Inside and Illumination Theory. Looks like Enigma Machine isn't going anywhere with that nice video they play with the song. And The Looking Glass appears to be a fan favorite, at one point it was ranking higher than Enemy Inside on spotify.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 14, 2014, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
I think any DT12 song would work better live than TLG. No idea why they chose that one.

Well I believe it was the second single they released off of the album.  So they are playing live because they want to promote since it was chosen as a single.

So I guess, if you don't like the song, the question would be why did they choose it as a single.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 14, 2014, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 11:33:34 AM
I think any DT12 song would work better live than TLG. No idea why they chose that one.

There seems to be a lot of obvious things DT-related that you have no idea about. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 14, 2014, 12:03:15 PM
TLG is a great song.   Would I prefer TBP?  Sure.   But I can see fully why they would want to play that song.  It's the 2nd single and an EXCELLENT track in its own right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 14, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
TLG is fantastic, the best single they've had in ages, and I'm incredibly confident it will (and already has) come off well in a live environment.  No idea what this guy is on about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 14, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
TLG is fantastic, the best single they've had in ages, and I'm incredibly confident it will (and already has) come off well in a live environment.  No idea what this guy is on about.

That it's the worst song on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 14, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
TLG is fantastic, the best single they've had in ages, and I'm incredibly confident it will (and already has) come off well in a live environment.  No idea what this guy is on about.

That it's the worst song on DT12.

Wrong. "Along for the Ride" is the worst song on DT12. Maybe the top 5 worst songs they've ever done.

Definitely the most paint by numbers, generic, dad-rock song in the DT catalog. Man, I love DT but that song is such a dud. It's, like, seriously Rebecca Black bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 14, 2014, 04:31:57 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 14, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
TLG is fantastic, the best single they've had in ages, and I'm incredibly confident it will (and already has) come off well in a live environment.  No idea what this guy is on about.

That it's the worst song on DT12.

Wrong. "Along for the Ride" is the worst song on DT12. Maybe the top 5 worst songs they've ever done.

Definitely the most paint by numbers, generic, dad-rock song in the DT catalog. Man, I love DT but that song is such a dud. It's, like, seriously Rebecca Black bad.

 :|

Don't get me wrong, the song's not outstandingly amazing or anything, but that last statement is definitely a stretch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 05:13:50 PM
Along for the Ride is probably my second favourite song on DT12 just after IT. And before I clicked with IT I might have even said something like AFTR > IT. Call it generic or simple but I think it does exactly what it's supposed to and wouldn't expect anything more from the song. It's great the way it is.



Quote from: wasteland on March 14, 2014, 05:28:47 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(

The tour is not over in April. There's a second EU leg coming!

Ah.. this is reassuring!  ;D

Although I expected we'd get TLG live, I still think BTV/STR/TBP > TLG. So hopefully we get treated (again) on this second leg.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 14, 2014, 09:24:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2014, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 14, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
TLG is fantastic, the best single they've had in ages, and I'm incredibly confident it will (and already has) come off well in a live environment.  No idea what this guy is on about.

That it's the worst song on DT12.

Wrong. "Along for the Ride" is the worst song on DT12. Maybe the top 5 worst songs they've ever done.

Definitely the most paint by numbers, generic, dad-rock song in the DT catalog. Man, I love DT but that song is such a dud. It's, like, seriously Rebecca Black bad.

Whatever you think "dad rock" is, AFTR isn't close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on March 14, 2014, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
"Along for the Ride" is the worst song on DT12. Maybe the top 5 worst songs they've ever done.
Definitely the most paint by numbers, generic, dad-rock song in the DT catalog. Man, I love DT but that song is such a dud. It's, like, seriously Rebecca Black bad.
(https://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o669/bolsters/Foto-concerto-dream-theater-milano-20-gennaio-2014-Prandoni-066-681x1024.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 14, 2014, 10:19:34 PM
epic picture
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on March 14, 2014, 10:43:50 PM
I think AFTR is one of the best tracks on DT12. Probably my 2nd favorite after TBP and in my opinion one of the few bright spots on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 15, 2014, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
Wrong. "Along for the Ride" is the worst song on DT12. Maybe the top 5 worst songs they've ever done.
Are you sure you're not talking about Enigma Machine? ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer on March 15, 2014, 04:44:15 AM
My controversial opinion is that some of DT's music is tuneless and completely lacking in vocal melody. But only some!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 15, 2014, 05:59:48 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 05:13:50 PM
Quote from: wasteland on March 14, 2014, 05:28:47 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 14, 2014, 02:02:08 AM
Fair enough, I'm sure they're keeping the 'essence' of the setlist, but somehow I still wouldn't be surprised if some of the new album's songs get flipped around I mean come on, it's the new stuff, they're not gonna ignore it for the WHOLE tour are they??? Are they..  :(

The tour is not over in April. There's a second EU leg coming!

Ah.. this is reassuring!  ;D

Although I expected we'd get TLG live, I still think BTV/STR/TBP > TLG. So hopefully we get treated (again) on this second leg.
I'm sure we will. John was saying, amidst the pre-release hype, that he saw The Bigger Picture as this incredible live closer. I don't disagree with him, and I think it's the most glaring omission from the first leg.

They'll have already filmed the DVD by the second European leg, so I'd think they'll be changing it up a bit. Probably retain some mainstays - I don't think False Awakening Suite and The Enemy Inside are going anywhere any time soon - but just as The Bigger Picture was practically written to close a set, Behind the Veil would be an incredible way to open set two. Energetic, with a lush intro tape, and while it's one of the more typical Dream Theater songs, it's notable as it has them firing on all cylinders at the same time. It's not the heavy one, or the soft rock one, or the anthemic one, or the melodic one, or the technical one, or the quirky one - but it's all of those, cohesively, in seven minutes. That's very DT12, and one hell of a way to kick back into action.

I can't see them leaving Surrender to Reason alone for too long, either. Like Prophets of War, it might not appear until the next tour along, but that dirty, raw guitar-and-bass break is going to be incredible live. They won't want to lose the essence of the set, they've worked hard on it, but I suspect they'll trim things here and there. Especially as it'll merge with the festival tour, so the set will need to be looser by definition - I probably wouldn't repeat Illumination Theory in cities they've played it before, only play Backs of Angels at festival dates, trim the Awake and SfaM cuts down to the twofers in the US and EU. I'd probably keep Enigma Machine for the festivals, too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 15, 2014, 06:08:37 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 15, 2014, 04:44:15 AM
My controversial opinion is that some of DT's music is tuneless and completely lacking in vocal melody. But only some!

Not sure I agree with you completely, but I have found a few of their recent songs having some fairly uninteresting vocal melodies. As I mentioned earlier, I'd really like to see JR write the vocal melodies next time around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2014, 06:10:11 AM
I agree that TLG is the least of the songs on DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 15, 2014, 06:52:02 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 15, 2014, 06:08:37 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 15, 2014, 04:44:15 AM
My controversial opinion is that some of DT's music is tuneless and completely lacking in vocal melody. But only some!

Not sure I agree with you completely, but I have found a few of their recent songs having some fairly uninteresting vocal melodies. As I mentioned earlier, I'd really like to see JR write the vocal melodies next time around.
I don't think the melodies are boring, but I would like to hear what JR could do with them. I'm conscious that, the way the band operate, that would mean JR writing the lyrics.

However! I think that's an incredibly good idea. Jordan's written lyrics before, I used to love Rhythm of Time, and while he's not some lyrical genius, he's at least good enough to keep up with the other guys --

Beyond Tomorrow

I remember only yesterday
Seems like not so long ago
Moving sideways on a shifting stage
Don't know where time seems to go.

I watch myself turn away
All in a memory
Rewinding just a single page
Now it's all coming back to me...

There's a young man in an endless dream
Projecting through a world of sound
Fingers fly and then a silent scream
Always high above the ground

I'm living - this moment
Through all the years
Illusion - in my mind
Washing out the fears

One day I'll be far from here
A star beyond tomorrow
And distance beyond this sphere
Will lead me on!

It's not Wordsworth, but it's pleasant, it fits the music very well, and it's a new voice! JR's spoken about how he loves that the band's more democractic since MP left,* how everyone's got a voice rather than the narrative being dominated by a single leader, and I think that bears out in the music. The lyrics are pretty much the only place they've gone backwards, rather than forwards. They've not technically lost any lyricists since John Myung returned to the fold, but JM never really aimed to fill Mike Portnoy's boots, and James LaBrie's been so busy with his solo albums that he sat DT12 out completely. He's written one short song in the last seven years or so! JP's grand, but he wrote most of DT11 and practically all of DT12, as he almost certainly helped out with Surrender to Reason. More voices are always welcome, and I think JR's plenty good enough to contribute in that department.


*"I think what happened is that Mike Portnoy, whom I have a lot of respect for to this day - he's a wonderful musician, he's creative, he did great things for Dream Theater - when he left everybody else was able to offer their full energy to the project. You're talking about five guys who are extremely capable, who can make and produce their own albums, who just know how to do this, and we kind of allowed Mike to take over a lot of stuff. When we got to the point where he was no longer there we were excited about having that extra space. We suddenly had an organization that could be fully democratic and we could put ourselves behind it and figure out the best way to make it work."
- Brave Words and Bloody Knuckles, "Dream Theater - Along for the Ride: Prepare to be Illuminated" (https://www.bravewords.com/news/219227)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Fisi on March 15, 2014, 08:06:55 AM
Jordan himself has said many times that he's not interested in writing lyrics for Dream Theater, he's happy with his current role in the band. It wouldn't be a good idea to force him to do that either, so I think it's unlikely that it'll ever happen.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Jordan wouldn't like DT's music if he wasn't in the band, and he's only in the band for the money. Although Jordan surely loves his bandmates like brothers, he doesn't like the songs he plays on, and hasn't had too much of an actual music contribution until after MP left. Even after MP left, Jordan can't give any of the musical ideas that he truly loves because he knows JP would turn them down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on March 15, 2014, 08:43:36 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Jordan wouldn't like DT's music if he wasn't in the band, and he's only in the band for the money. Although Jordan surely loves his bandmates like brothers, he doesn't like the songs he plays on, and hasn't had too much of an actual music contribution until after MP left. Even after MP left, Jordan can't give any of the musical ideas that he truly loves because he knows JP would turn them down.

Sorry, I don't do this often at all, but unless you are Jordan's confessional priest or intimate friend (in which case shame on you on revealing things he wouldn't obviously want to be know to the public), what you say is completely incorrect and disproved by circumstantial evidence, point by point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 15, 2014, 08:50:29 AM
i don't even like dt but i had keyboard and an ipad so what the fuck
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 15, 2014, 08:50:42 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Jordan wouldn't like DT's music if he wasn't in the band, and he's only in the band for the money. Although Jordan surely loves his bandmates like brothers, he doesn't like the songs he plays on, and hasn't had too much of an actual music contribution until after MP left. Even after MP left, Jordan can't give any of the musical ideas that he truly loves because he knows JP would turn them down.

 :lol :lol

Haha, you made a funny joke.

Wait, what's that? You were serious?

In that case...

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:54:34 AM
Jordan doesn't like metal. DT is becoming increasingly more metal and less proggy. The 70s prog that Jordan loves so much is beginning to sound nothing like Jordan's band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 15, 2014, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Jordan wouldn't like DT's music if he wasn't in the band, and he's only in the band for the money.
Have you listened to his solo albums? Dream Theater music is practically his default setting! DT's a little heavier than his usual bag, he doesn't come from as much of a metal background, but Rhythm of Time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp4ZDCbLMso) sounds more like Dream Theater than any of James LaBrie's extra-curricular stuff, or Derek Sherinian's, or Mike Portnoy's since he left.

ETA:
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:54:34 AM
Jordan doesn't like metal. DT is becoming increasingly more metal and less proggy. The 70s prog that Jordan loves so much is beginning to sound nothing like Jordan's band.
Yeah, they've gone from The Glass Prison and As I Am right the way to Bridges in the Sky and Beneath the Veil.

I'm not even skewing the sample, Bridges in the Sky is the heaviest track on the disc - the last two albums are way, way more seventies than anything he produced with Mike Portnoy, save perhaps the title track off Octavarium? His influence has increased.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Jordan made his solo albums sound like DT to capitalize on DT fans and make a lot of money.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 15, 2014, 09:01:06 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Jordan made his solo albums sound like DT to capitalize on DT fans and make a lot of money.
On the Magna Carta label.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 15, 2014, 09:05:01 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Jordan made his solo albums sound like DT to capitalize on DT fans and make a lot of money.

And the "I'm really not kidding" jokes just keep on coming. :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Baseless Crackpot Theories on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 15, 2014, 09:12:59 AM
I don't know what's happening right now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 15, 2014, 09:15:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 15, 2014, 09:12:59 AM
I don't know what's happening right now.

I see what you did there!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 15, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Jordan wouldn't like DT's music if he wasn't in the band, and he's only in the band for the money. Although Jordan surely loves his bandmates like brothers, he doesn't like the songs he plays on, and hasn't had too much of an actual music contribution until after MP left. Even after MP left, Jordan can't give any of the musical ideas that he truly loves because he knows JP would turn them down.

He's a Muslim too
Title: Re: Your Baseless Crackpot Theories on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 15, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 15, 2014, 09:12:59 AM
I don't know what's happening right now.

Sheldon, your sarcasm meter is still off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 15, 2014, 10:50:27 AM
I also hear JR really, really doesn't like salad, but JP orders salad for JR whenever they go to a restaurant, and JR just kind of puts up with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2014, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Jordan made his solo albums sound like DT to capitalize on DT fans and make a lot of money.
OK,  you're either full of shit or you're trolling.  Either way, cut it out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 15, 2014, 11:55:32 AM
Jordan is actually DT's tax advisor. He just happens to do their taxes on stage, that's why he has that iPad there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 15, 2014, 11:56:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 15, 2014, 11:55:32 AM
Jordan is actually DT's tax advisor. He just happens to do their taxes on stage, that's why he has that iPad there.

iPeed when I read that out loud to myself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 15, 2014, 11:58:38 AM
On a more serious note, there's a certain aspect where I agree with XBOX. I agree that Jordan's musical ideas are probably not the easiest to integrate. If you listen to his solo stuff and the LMR album, you get a feel for what naturally comes out of him. For that reason I usually find the Jordan sections on DT songs very easy to spot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 15, 2014, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 15, 2014, 09:01:06 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 15, 2014, 08:59:53 AM
Jordan made his solo albums sound like DT to capitalize on DT fans and make a lot of money.
On the Magna Carta label.
choked on my coffee

Quote from: theseoafs on March 15, 2014, 10:50:27 AM
I also hear JR really, really doesn't like salad, but JP orders salad for JR whenever they go to a restaurant, and JR just kind of puts up with it.
Quote from: rumborak on March 15, 2014, 11:55:32 AM
Jordan is actually DT's tax advisor. He just happens to do their taxes on stage, that's why he has that iPad there.
and some more
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 15, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 15, 2014, 10:50:27 AM
I also hear JR really, really doesn't like salad, but JP orders salad for JR whenever they go to a restaurant, and JR just kind of puts up with it.

It must have been a Bad Salad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseJamittaja on March 15, 2014, 02:33:45 PM
Always I listen to BMUBMD I think the chorus is missing something. I don't know what but it sounds somehow too raw for my ears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on March 15, 2014, 02:57:26 PM
That conversation produced some of the best quotes I've ever seen.

Serious note, Enigma Machine is my favourite DT instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on March 15, 2014, 05:37:33 PM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on March 15, 2014, 02:57:26 PM
That conversation produced some of the best quotes I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 15, 2014, 08:59:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 15, 2014, 11:58:38 AM
On a more serious note, there's a certain aspect where I agree with XBOX. I agree that Jordan's musical ideas are probably not the easiest to integrate. If you listen to his solo stuff and the LMR album, you get a feel for what naturally comes out of him. For that reason I usually find the Jordan sections on DT songs very easy to spot.

Definitely, and there is a side of JR's sound that I feel is lacking on the last few albums, but you can still hear his influence coming through clearly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 16, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2014, 11:37:23 AM
OK,  you're either full of shit or you're trolling.  Either way, cut it out.

You can call me a troll or think I'm lying, but the truth is closer to my POV than the "everything is flowers" camp. LMR is what Jordan would prefer to write. LMR doesn't sound very much like DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 16, 2014, 06:41:02 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 16, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2014, 11:37:23 AM
OK,  you're either full of shit or you're trolling.  Either way, cut it out.

You can call me a troll or think I'm lying, but the truth is closer to my POV than the "everything is flowers" camp. LMR is what Jordan would prefer to write. LMR doesn't sound very much like DT12.
You heard it here first, LMR is the only music Jordan enjoys listening to or writing - based entirely on... shrug!

Frankly, he wouldn't play notes that aren't B-flat if he didn't have to. He only tolerates the rest of the octave for profit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 16, 2014, 08:10:13 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 16, 2014, 06:41:02 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 16, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2014, 11:37:23 AM
OK,  you're either full of shit or you're trolling.  Either way, cut it out.

You can call me a troll or think I'm lying, but the truth is closer to my POV than the "everything is flowers" camp. LMR is what Jordan would prefer to write. LMR doesn't sound very much like DT12.
You heard it here first, LMR is the only music Jordan enjoys listening to or writing - based entirely on... shrug!

Frankly, he wouldn't play notes that aren't B-flat if he didn't have to. He only tolerates the rest of the octave for profit.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 16, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
I just read an interview with Jordan and it seems that he has no problem with DT's stylistical limitations: https://metalshrineblogg.blogspot.se/2014/02/intervju-med-jordan-rudess-i-dream.html?m=1
Quote
With a band like Dream Theater, is there ever a limit to how far you can stray from the sound you´re known for? Or do you always have to keep it within the Dream Theater boundaries, so to speak?
 
Jordan Rudess: The stylistic window. First of all, Dream Theater is a fairly wide stylistic world and there are a lot of things that can be included, be it a little honky tonk thing or a slightly jazzy thing, so there are many possibilities. There are certain things that really don´t go or don´t fly inside the Dream Theater window. The best example of a band that completely does what you´re referring to, is Radiohead. They create these songs and then next thing they´re an electronic band doing weird stuff. Dream Theater does not work that way. We´ve worked very hard over the years in creating this window of parameters and it´s kinda a common ground for all of us as musicians to create this particular kind of music. An example is that many years ago, I remember I had just gotten an amazing percussion library of native instruments called Battery with great electronic drum sounds. I came into a Dream Theater writing session and we started off jamming and I was playing these really cool sounds and we had a great, great jam and it was really funny and we all ended up laughing at the end, which was really cool. I remember Mike Portnoy saying “That was amazing, but we could never do anything like that!”. It was just too different and too odd.
 
Could that ever limit you as a musician?
 
Jordan Rudess: As a musician I have all kinds of projects I do on the side. I just finished and orchestral album and earlier I made a solo piano album that is really, really gentle. I do my electronic music and my solo piano music and when we come together as a band, I know it´s time for Dream Theater. But if we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the “Illumination theory” and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album. Things do change and we become more relaxed. Things are possible, but it´s an appreciation and respect for who we are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 16, 2014, 05:42:49 PM
Quote from: YtseJamittaja on March 15, 2014, 02:33:45 PM
Always I listen to BMUBMD I think the chorus is missing something. I don't know what but it sounds somehow too raw for my ears.

The something missing from that chorus is balls. It's a whiney radio metal chorus that makes me violently ill every time I (accidentally) listen to it. Not a controversial opinion at all, mate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on March 16, 2014, 06:02:09 PM
A Rite of Passage, Prophets of War and Never Enough are good songs..

Don't know how everyone keeps saying they're 'awful' in such a strictly way.. And I'm not saying anything against those who REALLY think these songs are bad.. I'm just against those who say they're bad only because in comparison with other songs they're not that great..

NE, POW & AROP  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 16, 2014, 06:17:57 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.
Quote from: ToT-147 on March 16, 2014, 06:02:09 PM
A Rite of Passage, Prophets of War and Never Enough are good songs..
NE, POW & AROP  :hefdaddy

Agree with both.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 16, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.

I agree.  The screams just MAKE that chorus.  I think the chorus is one of DT's best.   Amazing song, and one of the highlights of ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 16, 2014, 07:11:58 PM
Not to jump on the "BMUBMD hate" bandwagon, and for what it is, it's a pretty decent song, but the "screaming section" still gets me. And it's not that I don't like harsher vocals either, I just don't find that particular section's vocal melodies very exciting or memorable. Nothing about it makes me wanna go back to it. I much prefer the song for its riffs and lyrical chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 16, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: jammindude on March 16, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.

I agree.  The screams just MAKE that chorus.  I think the chorus is one of DT's best.   Amazing song, and one of the highlights of ADTOE.

I don't love the song, but I really don't get the (amount of) hate it gets. It's definitely a solid song, and I've always appreciated the metal "singles" more than most. I don't know how someone can say the chorus is whiny or lacks balls either. :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 16, 2014, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 16, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: jammindude on March 16, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.

I agree.  The screams just MAKE that chorus.  I think the chorus is one of DT's best.   Amazing song, and one of the highlights of ADTOE.

I don't love the song, but I really don't get the (amount of) hate it gets. It's definitely a solid song, and I've always appreciated the metal "singles" more than most. I don't know how someone can say the chorus is whiny or lacks balls either. :dunno:

It's probably my least favourite from the album, and I probably like it less than You Not Me, but it's STILL an enjoyable song. The only real problem I have with it is the unison section, which I don't find particularly interesting, and I thought the transition from it into the last chorus sounds a little lazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 16, 2014, 09:00:47 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 16, 2014, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 16, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: jammindude on March 16, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on March 16, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
I love BMUBMD.

I agree.  The screams just MAKE that chorus.  I think the chorus is one of DT's best.   Amazing song, and one of the highlights of ADTOE.

I don't love the song, but I really don't get the (amount of) hate it gets. It's definitely a solid song, and I've always appreciated the metal "singles" more than most. I don't know how someone can say the chorus is whiny or lacks balls either. :dunno:

It's probably my least favourite from the album, and I probably like it less than You Not Me, but it's STILL an enjoyable song. The only real problem I have with it is the unison section, which I don't find particularly interesting, and I thought the transition from it into the last chorus sounds a little lazy.

I don't think the unison is standout, but what I do like about it is that they didn't just tack in solos. They wrote a new section specifically for the instrumental and put the thought into it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 16, 2014, 11:12:36 PM
Quote from: ? on March 16, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
I just read an interview with Jordan and it seems that he has no problem with DT's stylistical limitations: https://metalshrineblogg.blogspot.se/2014/02/intervju-med-jordan-rudess-i-dream.html?m=1
Quote
With a band like Dream Theater, is there ever a limit to how far you can stray from the sound you´re known for? Or do you always have to keep it within the Dream Theater boundaries, so to speak?
 
Jordan Rudess: The stylistic window. First of all, Dream Theater is a fairly wide stylistic world and there are a lot of things that can be included, be it a little honky tonk thing or a slightly jazzy thing, so there are many possibilities. There are certain things that really don´t go or don´t fly inside the Dream Theater window. The best example of a band that completely does what you´re referring to, is Radiohead. They create these songs and then next thing they´re an electronic band doing weird stuff. Dream Theater does not work that way. We´ve worked very hard over the years in creating this window of parameters and it´s kinda a common ground for all of us as musicians to create this particular kind of music. An example is that many years ago, I remember I had just gotten an amazing percussion library of native instruments called Battery with great electronic drum sounds. I came into a Dream Theater writing session and we started off jamming and I was playing these really cool sounds and we had a great, great jam and it was really funny and we all ended up laughing at the end, which was really cool. I remember Mike Portnoy saying “That was amazing, but we could never do anything like that!”. It was just too different and too odd.
 
Could that ever limit you as a musician?
 
Jordan Rudess: As a musician I have all kinds of projects I do on the side. I just finished and orchestral album and earlier I made a solo piano album that is really, really gentle. I do my electronic music and my solo piano music and when we come together as a band, I know it´s time for Dream Theater. But if we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the “Illumination theory” and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album. Things do change and we become more relaxed. Things are possible, but it´s an appreciation and respect for who we are.

Honestly, that attitude is quite unfortunate.  Too different and too odd?  Uh, it's your band, so you can do whatever you want with it, especially when you freely admit to being a progressive band, which should mean doing whatever the hell you want, instead of staying inside the box you have created for yourself, even if it is larger than that of most other bands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 17, 2014, 02:15:19 AM
I might be a bit thrown off if JR used some really different wacky sounds, but I'd rather these guys did whatever the hell they wanted as opposed to making an impositional framework for themselves. I guess that happens with most bands after they've been around long enough though because they don't want to alienate their fanbase too much. But I like to think we'd have enough respect for their musicianship to at least try and appreciate anything they create.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 02:24:35 AM
I mean, it's hardly unusual, is it? "Porcupine Tree music" is a fairly loose frame, but Steven Wilson still releases the really wacky stuff with a solo band. And as JR concedes, they do move out of their comfort zones. The last album has some of their weirdest stuff in years, and he himself pinpoints the orchestral bit as something they never thought they could do, so it's not something I can bring myself to be bothered about. It's not a totally blank canvas, but they're surprising me an increasing amount in a lot of cool ways.

Prophets of War does have all the hallmarks of a foray outside their comfort zone that could've been truly brilliant if they'd pushed the envelope just that little bit further, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 17, 2014, 03:10:11 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 16, 2014, 11:12:36 PM
Quote from: ? on March 16, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
I just read an interview with Jordan and it seems that he has no problem with DT's stylistical limitations: https://metalshrineblogg.blogspot.se/2014/02/intervju-med-jordan-rudess-i-dream.html?m=1
Quote
With a band like Dream Theater, is there ever a limit to how far you can stray from the sound you´re known for? Or do you always have to keep it within the Dream Theater boundaries, so to speak?
 
Jordan Rudess: The stylistic window. First of all, Dream Theater is a fairly wide stylistic world and there are a lot of things that can be included, be it a little honky tonk thing or a slightly jazzy thing, so there are many possibilities. There are certain things that really don´t go or don´t fly inside the Dream Theater window. The best example of a band that completely does what you´re referring to, is Radiohead. They create these songs and then next thing they´re an electronic band doing weird stuff. Dream Theater does not work that way. We´ve worked very hard over the years in creating this window of parameters and it´s kinda a common ground for all of us as musicians to create this particular kind of music. An example is that many years ago, I remember I had just gotten an amazing percussion library of native instruments called Battery with great electronic drum sounds. I came into a Dream Theater writing session and we started off jamming and I was playing these really cool sounds and we had a great, great jam and it was really funny and we all ended up laughing at the end, which was really cool. I remember Mike Portnoy saying “That was amazing, but we could never do anything like that!”. It was just too different and too odd.
 
Could that ever limit you as a musician?
 
Jordan Rudess: As a musician I have all kinds of projects I do on the side. I just finished and orchestral album and earlier I made a solo piano album that is really, really gentle. I do my electronic music and my solo piano music and when we come together as a band, I know it´s time for Dream Theater. But if we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the “Illumination theory” and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album. Things do change and we become more relaxed. Things are possible, but it´s an appreciation and respect for who we are.

Honestly, that attitude is quite unfortunate.  Too different and too odd?  Uh, it's your band, so you can do whatever you want with it, especially when you freely admit to being a progressive band, which should mean doing whatever the hell you want, instead of staying inside the box you have created for yourself, even if it is larger than that of most other bands.

What unfortunate attitude? JR is just saying that they can not really be like Radiohead in terms that change sounds drastically from album to album. At least not yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on March 17, 2014, 05:03:35 AM
I'd really like them to change their sound sometime, or at least try some new/experimental things. SDOIT is my favourite DT album and I think that especially DT12 but ADTOE also are pretty boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 08:52:42 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 02:24:35 AM
I mean, it's hardly unusual, is it? "Porcupine Tree music" is a fairly loose frame, but Steven Wilson still releases the really wacky stuff with a solo band. And as JR concedes, they do move out of their comfort zones. The last album has some of their weirdest stuff in years, and he himself pinpoints the orchestral bit as something they never thought they could do, so it's not something I can bring myself to be bothered about. It's not a totally blank canvas, but they're surprising me an increasing amount in a lot of cool ways.

 

They tend to do that with a 10-second section here and a 10-second section there, as opposed to moving out of their comfort zone for entire songs.  Granted, it is usually pretty neat to hear different things in the context of songs that otherwise sound very DT (like the little breakdown in the middle of Breaking All Illusions, shortly before the guitar solo), but I'd love to see them throw caution to the wind and try writing some songs that are totally out of their comfort zone. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on March 17, 2014, 08:55:44 AM
Now I have a new reason for both liking and disliking this album: it's seriously, seriously catchy.

The "Knowing that nothing is stronger than faith" part in Along for the Ride kept looping in my head for the whole day, and it almost drove me mad before I realized that I could keep the wonderful melodies but just switch up the lyrics into nonsense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 09:36:24 AM
I'm with Kev on that I find DT has done their duty for king and country, and they should venture out a bit more. I mean, looking at JR's comment there, at least he seems to have desire to do other stuff, but he has to relegate it to outside projects. I mean, he's part of a band of astonishing musicians who could convincingly pull off a LOT of different styles, but they confine themselves to a very narrow range. Not very prog, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 17, 2014, 10:11:26 AM
The RR era of DT is definitely the least proggy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 12:58:28 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on March 17, 2014, 10:11:26 AM
The RR era of DT is definitely the least proggy.
Depending on your definition of proggy. The RR era of DT has been the most Metal oriented, the 7-string, the style of the riffs and the way they're mixed, it definitely has a much more metallic sound to it. But they still have very progressive songs. ITPOE, TCOT, IT, and many others, they still have all the progressive elements that DT is known for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 12:58:28 PM
it definitely has a much more metallic sound to it.

I was gonna make a post about the whole "this is prog vs progressive again", but then saw this. I guess there's a new war in town, "metal vs metallic" :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:15:11 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 01:12:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 12:58:28 PM
it definitely has a much more metallic sound to it.

I was gonna make a post about the whole "this is prog vs progressive again"
Ohhhh, you're not stuffing the worms back into the can that easily! q: Prog's a noun, progressive's an adjective. Not all prog songs are progressive, not all progressive songs are prog. All prog songs are proggy, though.

Controversial opinions... ahoy!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 17, 2014, 01:17:21 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.

I'd probably throw in a good part of FII in there, particularly New Millennium and Anna Lee. Probably Disappear too, although it has a similar vibe to Space-Dye Vest, albeit with more psychedelic influence in some parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
How is it that you skipped over their Derek days?
When it comes to DT being adventurous, I'd say their most experimental album by far is FII. Yes, there was a lot of label involvement there, but even without it, even the way it was on the FII Demos, it sounded like they were exploring a different, more melodic style, but in a very different way than I&W. Whereas I&W sounded like a natural progression and improvement over the WDADU formula, FII sounded like something completely new and different from them.

So if we were to define "Progressive" as something experimental, then I'd say FII is their most progressive album. But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.


And if we're gonna address the whole prog vs. progressive thing again. Or at least the term "proggy", to me, that term indicates something more wanky, that's a lot more keyboard or at least melody oriented. So yeah, proggy kind of takes a backseat when the metal element enters the picture, and suddenly everything is more riff driven. But until we get an official musical definition on Progressive, Prog, Proggy, Metal, Metallic, then these semantics are all up to individual interpretation, and arguing about them is like arguing about whether a piece of art is good or not. People of different generations and different musical experiences will have different interpretations of these terms, so what's the point?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 01:30:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 17, 2014, 01:17:21 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
I think they had the most uncharted territory earlier in their career, but that's just the linear nature of time. I think their most out-of-character moments, put into the context of the whole discography, are probably Space-Dye Vest, Misunderstood, and The Embracing Circle - so I reckon they're pretty even. In fact, I'd probably give the nod to Six Degrees for most adventurous, and that's slap bang in the middle.

I'd probably throw in a good part of FII in there, particularly New Millennium and Anna Lee. Probably Disappear too, although it has a similar vibe to Space-Dye Vest, albeit with more psychedelic influence in some parts.
Oh, man, I'd forgotten New Millennium! I don't think there's that much of Falling Into Infinity that's massively surpising, even a song like You Not Me that everyone moans about has plenty of DT in it. It's been trimmed and pasteurised, but it's not batshit mental in the same way New Millennium is. Anna Lee, I don't think is a million miles from the band who wrote Another Day, but Take Away My Pain could have a shout, now you mention it.

There's a really cool interview, ca. the Falling Into Infinity era, where John Petrucci is truly and sincerely very excited about all the cool stuff on the album, and I think it's an absolutely stellar read. I did toy, for a while, with starting a quote database - just the band, discussing their songs and albums and the events in the band's life with links to the full interviews, and Falling Into Infinity was a fun album to research. The narrative was so fogged with "GRR, THE RECORD LABEL, MAN" that you don't hear enough of the band discussing the things that are really cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 01:30:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.

Maybe if you want to use those terms by themselves to describe any piece of music, I'd agree. But in general, I just consider Prog to be an abbreviation of Progressive. If I asked someone what the genre of a band is, and they said, "Progressive Metal", I wouldn't assume the band is doing something extremely experimental, I'd assume the band makes long, epic songs, or a lot of time signature and musical theme changes within their songs.
And if they said the band is "Prog Metal", I would assume they're just abbreviating Progressive.


EDIT: Actually, I'm not even sure I agree with myself there. Because if someone told me that a SONG was progressive, I'd still assume they meant the song was epic and had a lot of changes in it, like ACOS or IT.
Yeah, I can't say that I associate Progressive and Experimental. I mean, a band that's progressive can be experimental, there's nothing that makes the two elements mutually exclusive. But if you have a band that's experimental, and they do something new, like fuse two new genres together, and end up with... Well, JLB's Impermanent Resonance, for example. I would say that's a very experimental sound, combining the catchy elements of pop, with the heavy and fast elements of Death Metal like that. But I wouldn't take any given song on that album and call it Progressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on March 17, 2014, 01:42:05 PM
I'm beginning to think we should just boycott the words 'prog' and 'progressive' altogether. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:51:25 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 01:31:09 PM
There's a really cool interview, ca. the Falling Into Infinity era, where John Petrucci is truly and sincerely very excited about all the cool stuff on the album, and I think it's an absolutely stellar read. I did toy, for a while, with starting a quote database - just the band, discussing their songs and albums and the events in the band's life with links to the full interviews, and Falling Into Infinity was a fun album to research. The narrative was so fogged with "GRR, THE RECORD LABEL, MAN" that you don't hear enough of the band discussing the things that are really cool.
I know this is completely contrary to what I just said about how refreshing it is hearing the band being positive about Falling into Infinity, but hell - who doesn't love Scathing John Myung?

Shockwaves: In your bio, it describes [You Not Me] as a "tortured love anthem." Can you explain the meaning behind that?
JM: I think that's the record company being a little bit too creative.

https://www.hardradio.com/hr3.html?https://www.hardradio.com/shockwaves/dt1.php3
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on March 17, 2014, 01:56:27 PM
Oh wow, that's an interesting read, Mr robwebster! JM always proving to be my favourite DT Member.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 17, 2014, 02:01:53 PM
Quote from: GentlemanofDread on March 17, 2014, 01:56:27 PM
Oh wow, that's an interesting read, Mr robwebster! JM always proving to be my favourite DT Member.
He's good, isn't he? Truth be told, he's got me back into the quote database. https://dtondt.wordpress.com - I might put a link saying "send me interviews" in my signature. There's another one, from either the FII or the SfaM era, that I'm trying to find, apparently never added it to the database. I just found this, though, so this is nice! https://www.musicplayers.com/features/bass/2014/0114_JohnMyung.php Look how chatty he is! I feel like I read this at the time, but I don't remember a bloody thing about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 16, 2014, 11:12:36 PM
Quote from: ? on March 16, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
I just read an interview with Jordan and it seems that he has no problem with DT's stylistical limitations: https://metalshrineblogg.blogspot.se/2014/02/intervju-med-jordan-rudess-i-dream.html?m=1
Quote
With a band like Dream Theater, is there ever a limit to how far you can stray from the sound you´re known for? Or do you always have to keep it within the Dream Theater boundaries, so to speak?
 
Jordan Rudess: The stylistic window. First of all, Dream Theater is a fairly wide stylistic world and there are a lot of things that can be included, be it a little honky tonk thing or a slightly jazzy thing, so there are many possibilities. There are certain things that really don´t go or don´t fly inside the Dream Theater window. The best example of a band that completely does what you´re referring to, is Radiohead. They create these songs and then next thing they´re an electronic band doing weird stuff. Dream Theater does not work that way. We´ve worked very hard over the years in creating this window of parameters and it´s kinda a common ground for all of us as musicians to create this particular kind of music. An example is that many years ago, I remember I had just gotten an amazing percussion library of native instruments called Battery with great electronic drum sounds. I came into a Dream Theater writing session and we started off jamming and I was playing these really cool sounds and we had a great, great jam and it was really funny and we all ended up laughing at the end, which was really cool. I remember Mike Portnoy saying “That was amazing, but we could never do anything like that!”. It was just too different and too odd.
 
Could that ever limit you as a musician?
 
Jordan Rudess: As a musician I have all kinds of projects I do on the side. I just finished and orchestral album and earlier I made a solo piano album that is really, really gentle. I do my electronic music and my solo piano music and when we come together as a band, I know it´s time for Dream Theater. But if we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the “Illumination theory” and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album. Things do change and we become more relaxed. Things are possible, but it´s an appreciation and respect for who we are.

Honestly, that attitude is quite unfortunate.  Too different and too odd?  Uh, it's your band, so you can do whatever you want with it, especially when you freely admit to being a progressive band, which should mean doing whatever the hell you want, instead of staying inside the box you have created for yourself, even if it is larger than that of most other bands.

That quote really is unfortunate.  :-[ Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 17, 2014, 03:17:08 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 01:30:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
But if we define Progressive as long, epic, time signature changes, playing around with different riff and melody patterns and ideas in a single song, then I'd say they've been consistently progressive throughout their entire career, RR days included.

I think the tentative consensus on this board is that that's rather "prog", whereas "progressive" really means being experimental.

This is by no means the tentative consensus.  That is a (rather unsubstantiated) opinion that is thrown around by a few whenever this silly debate crops up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 03:26:00 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 03:11:52 PM
That quote really is unfortunate.  :-[ Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

But it really depends on to what extent you interpret that. I mean, Dream Theater is a Progressive Metal band, again, I always say, that Metal aspect is there, and they can't just abandon their rock roots. They can't just make a synth pop album for the sheer sake of doing something different.
They still incorporate all sorts of sounds and influences into their music. I personally don't know of any other band that can get away with writing a song like Solitary Shell AND a song like A Nightmare To Remember.
Just because they're not planning to do any songs that are Jazz Fusion or completely atmospheric, doesn't mean they're 'limiting themselves' or that their music is narrow.

Again, the whole "progressive" and experimental issue. It's not like Dream Theater's goal from the beginning was to always try to do something new and different and experimental. They don't go out of their way to say, "Let's do something just for the sake of shocking the audience with how different we are". They do what they feel passionate about and if one or two of their albums turned out to tread some new, interesting ground, that doesn't mean they need to strive to do that all the time. Especially if it doesn't work. Some of their most experimental songs, such as New Millennium and The Great Debate, are some of my least favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 17, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
I'd love to see DT do things differently with the next album - I'm not saying they need to make, say, synth pop (although it could be awesome, as I like Depeche Mode and CHVRCHES), but even hiring an outside producer or writing all the songs before going into the studio could shake things up a little bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on March 17, 2014, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: Jaffa on March 17, 2014, 01:42:05 PM
I'm beginning to think we should just boycott the words 'prog' and 'progressive' altogether.

Yeah, that's why I used the word "proggy".  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 03:58:55 PM
Would be nice if they make an album influenced by music they're digging in the present other than prog (based on their best 2013 albums, Rudess = Boards of Canada, Sigur Ros... Petrucci = Some metalcore bands).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 03:58:55 PM
Would be nice if they make an album influenced by music they're digging in the present other than prog (based on their best 2013 albums, Rudess = Boards of Canada, Sigur Ros... Petrucci = Some metalcore bands).

That would be absolutely terrible. Bite your tongue!

I'd much rather hear DT stagnate into the most DT by numbers sound, than hear them try and do Metalcore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 04:55:16 PM
DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 04:55:39 PM
Some metalcore is good. Trivium, for instance, are fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 04:57:58 PM
Well, it's not like i like it either but it's what he's listening most these days apparently.
Since one of your favorites is Systematic Chaos, you wouldn't bother much if this experience turned out to be terrible :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 04:55:16 PM
DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

That is obvious, we're just imagining if things were different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 04:55:16 PM
DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

I got no problem with that.

Honestly, the problem with DT doing anything experimental is that they're a diverse band as it is, and as a result, they managed to attract a fanbase with extremely differing musical tastes. And those tastes aren't always going to agree. While I personally would really enjoy a DT album where they tried to have, let's say, more symphonic elements like Forsaken with a string section, or more Power Metal elements along the lines of Yngwie Malmsteen, I know that that style might not be for everyone and would probably alienate a good portion of the fans who are more into the darker, more aggressive Metal side of DT.

So I think it's best that they stick to taking those kinds of influences, and implementing them like drops of lemon into what they're already doing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 04:55:39 PM
Some metalcore is good. Trivium, for instance, are fantastic.

You're in the right topic  :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 05:01:37 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 04:55:16 PM
DT will sound like DT. Don't expect them to do anything groundbreaking for the rest of the band's life. We usually get some variety album-to-album, but as far as doing something totally outside the box...it ain't happening. It would make little sense for them to do that based upon where things are now.

I got no problem with that.

Honestly, the problem with DT doing anything experimental is that they're a diverse band as it is, and as a result, they managed to attract a fanbase with extremely differing musical tastes. And those tastes aren't always going to agree. While I personally would really enjoy a DT album where they tried to have, let's say, more symphonic elements like Forsaken with a string section, or more Power Metal elements along the lines of Yngwie Malmsteen, I know that that style might not be for everyone and would probably alienate a good portion of the fans who are more into the darker, more aggressive Metal side of DT.

So I think it's best that they stick to taking those kinds of influences, and implementing them like drops of lemon into what they're already doing.

I don't have a problem with it either. At the end of the day, I'd prefer they do what they've done the past two albums, which have been different while clearly DT, rather than take a huge risk that could very likely fail.

As long as the music is good -- and I believe it has been lately -- they should keep on doing DT. There's just enough variety between the albums to keep things interesting for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
I don't have a problem with it either. At the end of the day, I'd prefer they do what they've done the past two albums, which have been different while clearly DT, rather than take a huge risk that could very likely fail.

As long as the music is good -- and I believe it has been lately -- they should keep on doing DT. There's just enough variety between the albums to keep things interesting for me.

We agree on something for once.  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 05:11:11 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 05:17:45 PM
This DTF, we ain't having any of that agreein' nonsense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 06:21:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 03:26:00 PM
They still incorporate all sorts of sounds and influences into their music. I personally don't know of any other band that can get away with writing a song like Solitary Shell AND a song like A Nightmare To Remember.

The other DT..  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 06:34:21 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.

In the grand scheme of things, they're still few and far between, and like I said, none that I personally know. This is the first time I hear of Ulver.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on March 17, 2014, 06:51:55 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 17, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
Yeah, there are lots of bands with pretty wide-ranging influences. Ulver, for instance.

Fuck yeah Ulver! I didn't expect someone on here to be a fan. I'm still very upset they dropped out of this year's Maryland Deathfest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 07:52:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 01:03:39 PM
I am guessing he meant "least adventurous," not proggy per se in the sense of writing songs that are broadly defined as progressive rock or metal epics.  In that regard, I definitely agree that their most adventurous days were earlier in their career (1992-1994, 1999-2002).
How is it that you skipped over their Derek days?
 

Because I don't think FII is as adventurous as the two albums with the classic lineup or the first two with Rudess were.  Pretty simple, really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 03:11:52 PM


That quote really is unfortunate.  :-[ Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed.  I remember one of them had something similar about Liquid Dreams from the 2nd LTE album, like, "We could never do a song like in DT."  Uh, why not?  It is your band, so you can do whatever you want with it.  Being a rock band didn't stop U2 from doing a lot of the electronic stuff they did in the 90s, so are you telling me DT cannot write out of their progressive metal comfort zone?  No way.  And no, I don't think they should do something different just for the sake of it, but if they have a great idea, like Rudess talked about in that earlier quote, why not expand it and write a DT song around it? Just because it's not part of the pre-existing DT sound doesn't mean it cannot become part of the DT sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 17, 2014, 08:10:59 PM
Though I remember Neil Peart around the Presto album saying he learned all he could about drumming only years later did he say he was wrong so don't fret yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2014, 08:24:20 PM
If anything, it would probably help with that production hole they dug themselves into lately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 17, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 03:11:52 PM


That quote really is unfortunate.  :-[ Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed.  I remember one of them had something similar about Liquid Dreams from the 2nd LTE album, like, "We could never do a song like in DT."  Uh, why not?  It is your band, so you can do whatever you want with it.  Being a rock band didn't stop U2 from doing a lot of the electronic stuff they did in the 90s, so are you telling me DT cannot write out of their progressive metal comfort zone?  No way.  And no, I don't think they should do something different just for the sake of it, but if they have a great idea, like Rudess talked about in that earlier quote, why not expand it and write a DT song around it? Just because it's not part of the pre-existing DT sound doesn't mean it cannot become part of the DT sound.

You raise some good points. I can understand DT's point of view though. DT is a working band. U2 could make fart noises for 45 minutes, record it, sell 100,000 copies the first week, and follow it with a $300 million revenue tour. DT is completely dependent on it's fans, and while DT fans are probably the most loyal of any band I know, metal/rock fans in general can be very cruel and adverse to change. DT are truly survivors in the rock (I would put Rush in that category as well). And part of their survival has been maintaining some sense of musical parameters and identity. You do something too different and you risk of alienating your fan base.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:13:19 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 17, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
You raise some good points. I can understand DT's point of view though. DT is a working band. U2 could make fart noises for 45 minutes, record it, sell 100,000 copies the first week, and follow it with a $300 million revenue tour. DT is completely dependent on it's fans, and while DT fans are probably the most loyal of any band I know, metal/rock fans in general can be very cruel and adverse to change. DT are truly survivors in the rock (I would put Rush in that category as well). And part of their survival has been maintaining some sense of musical parameters and identity. You do something too different and you risk of alienating your fan base.

Something Rush DID learn the hard way, back in the 80s. Sure, in retrospect, a lot of us can recognize that Spirit of the Radio, Time Stand Still and Roll The Bones are fun, interesting songs with some great themes to them, but back then, Mike Portnoy is the perfect testament of how off putting some of that stuff was to hardcore Rush fans.

Same with Megadeth and Risk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
But, just like Rush, there's the core fanbase that will stay with Dream Theater, hungry for whatever they put out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:20:47 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
But, just like Rush, there's the core fanbase that will stay with Dream Theater, hungry for whatever they put out.

I'm pretty sure that Rush's fanbase at its peak was bigger than DT's though. So even losing a good amount of them, the 'core' is a lot more substantial. I don't think DT can afford to have its fanbase whittled down to the 'core' of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 09:28:41 PM
Rush was still drawing like crazy well into the 90s, filling up many of the arenas they toured (16K plus), so even though a portion of fans didn't like their post-Moving Pictures direction, they stayed with them for the live shows for many years.  It helped that they kept ticket prices relatively low, until their comeback in 2002, when their prices shot up.  The increase in DT's ticket prices is probably a big reason why some have said their live shows are not filling up like they used to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 17, 2014, 09:41:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:20:47 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
But, just like Rush, there's the core fanbase that will stay with Dream Theater, hungry for whatever they put out.

I'm pretty sure that Rush's fanbase at its peak was bigger than DT's though. So even losing a good amount of them, the 'core' is a lot more substantial. I don't think DT can afford to have its fanbase whittled down to the 'core' of it.

100% correct. DT doesn't have that luxury. For all the talk of us on this board, complaining DT plays it safe and shouldn't box themselves in to a certain sound, one can understand where they are coming from.

That said, how amazing is it that a band almost 30 years old is still making relevant records that stack up against some of the best material they've ever done, and enjoying the largest fanbase they've probably ever had, all without compromising their sound. To me, that's what makes DT so special. I literally can't think of another single  band that fits that bill.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:48:22 PM
DT IS THE BEST!!!!  :metal

Though that's not very controversial.

Umm...

Forsaken is way better than Space-Dye Vest. There.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on March 17, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:48:22 PM
Forsaken is way better than Space-Dye Vest. There.
(https://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o669/bolsters/vomit.gif~original)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 17, 2014, 09:53:49 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 17, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 17, 2014, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 17, 2014, 03:11:52 PM


That quote really is unfortunate.  :-[ Hearing one of your favorite bands say that there are limits and comfort zones to the music they make... Doesn't really make since since they are indeed a progressive band. "Appreciation and respect for who we are"? That quote really rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed.  I remember one of them had something similar about Liquid Dreams from the 2nd LTE album, like, "We could never do a song like in DT."  Uh, why not?  It is your band, so you can do whatever you want with it.  Being a rock band didn't stop U2 from doing a lot of the electronic stuff they did in the 90s, so are you telling me DT cannot write out of their progressive metal comfort zone?  No way.  And no, I don't think they should do something different just for the sake of it, but if they have a great idea, like Rudess talked about in that earlier quote, why not expand it and write a DT song around it? Just because it's not part of the pre-existing DT sound doesn't mean it cannot become part of the DT sound.

You raise some good points. I can understand DT's point of view though. DT is a working band. U2 could make fart noises for 45 minutes, record it, sell 100,000 copies the first week, and follow it with a $300 million revenue tour. DT is completely dependent on it's fans, and while DT fans are probably the most loyal of any band I know, metal/rock fans in general can be very cruel and adverse to change. DT are truly survivors in the rock (I would put Rush in that category as well). And part of their survival has been maintaining some sense of musical parameters and identity. You do something too different and you risk of alienating your fan base.

Good post. DT have worked very hard to gain this loyal and picky fan base. You put out one or two albums that's too great a risk and you could really do some harm to what you've spent all this time building. All genres including (yes) progressive metal build expectations. Going way outside of those expectations and calling it "Dream Theater," is probably not a great idea. It's a tremendous risk for these guys to take in their 50s. The business side -- how you build your brand and market yourself and keep your fans (customers) -- is a very important thing that a lot of music fans and even musicians don't really understand.

DT could do something very different and it could be a huge hit. I don't think that is very likely, but it's possible. The more realistic outcome is that the fanbase at large listens to it and goes "..........what?" Someone brought up Megadeth's Risk album. That's a good example. It sounds nothing like the band that put out "Peace Sells" but it is widely perceived to be a failure. The album was exactly what they called it: a risk. If you want to do something totally different in this situation, you probably don't do it under an established name. You go off and do a side project and call it something else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 02:17:44 AM
If we're all done focusing on the scariest bits of the quote like a messageboard full of tabloid journalists, let's see what Jordan actually said...

"If we look at the bigger picture, on this latest album we have the “Illumination theory” and in the middle of that one it goes into this very lovely orchestral and sensitive thing, which is a new thing for Dream Theater. I wrote this music that I probably would never picture would go on a Dream Theater album."

There we go. That's the qualifier. "We wouldn't mess with our core sound, except when we do, spectacularly, right at the heart of the centrepiece of our newest album where everyone can see it."

I don't think DT are beyond reproach. That "this would never fly in DT" thing made my heart hurt a little, too, after that electronic jam. I thought, "try me," but equally, I didn't hear the jam! I'd always like more experimentation, though. Muse are where I set the watermark. I loved Black Holes and Revelations - I loved that mortal terror, when I first heard Supermassive Black Hole, and that gradual yawning realisation when I started to notice I was falling in love with the track. I'd love Dream Theater to do something as shocking as Supermassive Black Hole was at the time, going from apocalyptic piano-rock to some synthy drum and bass odyssey. But Muse will tell you exactly the same thing as Dream Theater - they had a song, Soaked, which didn't make it to Black Holes and Revelations. I've listened to it, and it's brilliant, but Matt Bellamy on Soaked:

"I wrote a song called ‘Soaked’ when we were making Black Holes and Revelations, it is just like ‘Nikita’ by Elton John or one of those kind of tunes from the 80s. According to our publisher, it’s an Adam Lambert-esque song, who took second place in American Idol. I want to write various genres of music, classical music, pop music, and anything. I suppose Muse have the clear distinction that we must not go overboard, however, I sometimes cross that threshold as a songwriter. When I’m about to do so, it's made clear thanks to Chris and Dom.”

That's from the Japanese magazine Crossbeat (https://www.musewiki.org/Soaked_%28song%29), transcribed for Musewiki.

Alternatively, Steven Wilson seems to be the Patron Saint of ~True Art~ on this messageboard, so let's invoke him. Far and away the lead songwriter for Porcupine Tree, he's a total auteur, but he sees it as a totally different hat to his solo work:

"It would have been so easy for me to have done another Porcupine Tree album after The Incident. We were told that the next record was going to be the “big one” and that the next tour would gross $5 million. We had just sold out Radio City Music Hall. But I was bored. I didn’t want to do it. I wanted to do something different. I went back to playing smaller clubs, performing with a new band and losing money every show. But it was so fulfilling creatively. It all comes back to what we were discussing at the beginning—the idea of not wanting to regret that you didn’t do what you should have done when you could."

From Innerviews. (https://innerviews.org/inner/wilson2.html)

This is not a Dream Theater specific thing. But frankly, it's not black and white, is the main thing. A strong identity can be a bad thing if it's all you write, if everything you do has to fall into an archetype. But if you don't have a character, if you're that all over the place, there's nothing to stretch and surprise people. It's a starting point, something that can be warped and manipulated at your own leisure. That expectation becomes a privilege, because it's something to defy.

Yes, Dream Theater are a band with a distinct identity. But they're also a band who put their instruments down for five minutes of their latest signature piece. They're not interested in rehashing Images and Words. They're not even interested in rehashing A Dramatic Turn of Events.

"With A Dramatic Turn of Events, that album was more or less about us letting everyone know that we are still the same band and we’re going to continue to write music and not lose our identity. So with that being done, Dream Theater was more or less about us just remembering and saying, “You know what, we’ve done that, we’ve proven that, let’s just get back into having a great time together and writing an amazing album and that we can say this is the beginning of something new for us.” This is a whole new chapter in Dream Theater’s career that we feel this album will be the kick-start to that."

- James LaBrie. October 2013. (https://www.theaquarian.com/2013/10/02/an-interview-with-james-labrie-sleight-of-hand/)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on March 18, 2014, 03:03:37 AM
DT12 is a much better album then ADTOE, in my opinion. I felt ADTOE was just really typical DT, to me it comes off as being like a I&W pt. 2.

But DT12 i like a lot. It sounds like DT, and there are definitely moments typical for the band, like a lot of the instrumental sections and intros. JP's guitar sounds is amazing, so full and crushing, i love it. I'd love to see them continue in this direction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 18, 2014, 03:40:57 AM
Quote from: NotePad on March 18, 2014, 03:03:37 AM
DT12 is a much better album then ADTOE, in my opinion. I felt ADTOE was just really typical DT, to me it comes off as being like a I&W pt. 2.

But DT12 i like a lot. It sounds like DT, and there are definitely moments typical for the band, like a lot of the instrumental sections and intros. JP's guitar sounds is amazing, so full and crushing, i love it. I'd love to see them continue in this direction.

Are you stating this as a controversial opinion? Because I don't think it's controversial at all.

And robwebster, you nailed it.  :tup

I do think there is a band who was successful in sounding different every two albums or so: QUEEN.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on March 18, 2014, 10:36:27 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 17, 2014, 03:58:55 PM
Would be nice if they make an album influenced by music they're digging in the present other than prog (based on their best 2013 albums, Rudess = Boards of Canada, Sigur Ros... Petrucci = Some metalcore bands).

I think this would be cool to hear. Maybe not on an "official" DT release but more like the Clear EP Periphery just released. I'd love to hear them do some just-for-fun songwriting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 18, 2014, 10:53:03 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 18, 2014, 03:40:57 AM
Quote from: NotePad on March 18, 2014, 03:03:37 AM
DT12 is a much better album then ADTOE, in my opinion. I felt ADTOE was just really typical DT, to me it comes off as being like a I&W pt. 2.

But DT12 i like a lot. It sounds like DT, and there are definitely moments typical for the band, like a lot of the instrumental sections and intros. JP's guitar sounds is amazing, so full and crushing, i love it. I'd love to see them continue in this direction.

Are you stating this as a controversial opinion? Because I don't think it's controversial at all.

I'd say the forum is fairly split in regards to DT12, and I've seen much more love for ADTOE than DT12 so I could see how this qualifies as somewhat controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 18, 2014, 11:59:34 AM
I prefer ADTOE, personally. Though both rank rather low overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 18, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
I find it surprising that JR thinks that the orchestra section is outside of what DT would normally do. After SDOIT and Octavarium, I'd say that fits right into their typical sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 18, 2014, 12:39:02 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 02:17:44 AM
*snip*

Good post, rob.  I'd also add that having a strong band identity is important for commercial reasons.  DTF does not represent the general DT fanbase; we're not the casual fans, we're generally the people who own all (or most) of the albums, know the band's history and side projects, and so on and so forth.  To us, it probably seems like no big deal for the band to explore jazz or electronica, because we like the musicians and their songwriting and we understand the result would probably be cool.  But if you're not a diehard fan, really big departures from the status quo can be confusing or offputting. 

There are a lot of examples of this in rock.  Rush is the first one that comes to mind.  It's extremely common among classic rock fans to hear that they stopped listening to Rush after Signals.  Synthy Rush just doesn't sit well with them.  And, lo and behold, the crowd at a Rush show goes quiet if you play an obscurer track off of Power Windows or Grace Under Pressure.  If DT cuts a jazz fusion track, a fraction of DT fans might be into it, but a fraction of fans will probably also say "what is this shit?" and put the disk away and never bother with DT again.  Messing with your core sound isn't necessarily a good thing.  Setting boundaries about what your band will and won't do is good sense to generate and retain a fanbase, and that's why so many of the artists evoked in Rob's post advocated for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 18, 2014, 12:45:05 PM
Yep.  Sure, they are artists, but this is also their livelihood.  Besides, DT isn't the be-all and end-all of any of the members, they all have other opportunities to express themselves in any style they want.  No big deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
Quote from: Implode on March 18, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
I find it surprising that JR thinks that the orchestra section is outside of what DT would normally do. After SDOIT and Octavarium, I'd say that fits right into their typical sound.
They've used a bit of orchestra, in the past. They've not stopped a song to cycle one idea for three minutes and let it ache and ache and ache.

The lazy, cookie-cutter stereotype about Dream Theater is that they're all about showing off, and not about writing good songs. Which is obviously hogwash, just look at this message board - very few threads are about how many notes and time signatures are in each song, and the vast majority are about the way the songs sound and feel, DT are clearly writing on a level way beyond pure acrobatics. But the wankery truism has never been less true than when they literally put their instruments down and walk off the stage in the middle of one of their 20+ minute epics. It's pure feeling, it's pure heartstrings.

You could argue they did something similar in The Count of Tuscany, but I think the only real similarities are structural. The sound of Illumination Theory, the character - it'd be brave for Muse!



Quote from: theseoafs on March 18, 2014, 12:39:02 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 02:17:44 AM
*snip*

Good post, rob.  I'd also add that having a strong band identity is important for commercial reasons.  DTF does not represent the general DT fanbase; we're not the casual fans, we're generally the people who own all (or most) of the albums, know the band's history and side projects, and so on and so forth.  To us, it probably seems like no big deal for the band to explore jazz or electronica, because we like the musicians and their songwriting and we understand the result would probably be cool.  But if you're not a diehard fan, really big departures from the status quo can be confusing or offputting. 

There are a lot of examples of this in rock.  Rush is the first one that comes to mind.  It's extremely common among classic rock fans to hear that they stopped listening to Rush after Signals.  Synthy Rush just doesn't sit well with them.  And, lo and behold, the crowd at a Rush show goes quiet if you play an obscurer track off of Power Windows or Grace Under Pressure.  If DT cuts a jazz fusion track, a fraction of DT fans might be into it, but a fraction of fans will probably also say "what is this shit?" and put the disk away and never bother with DT again.  Messing with your core sound isn't necessarily a good thing.  Setting boundaries about what your band will and won't do is good sense to generate and retain a fanbase, and that's why so many of the artists evoked in Rob's post advocated for it.
I don't disagree by any means - but to give the other side its dues, I don't think Synthy Rush is a cautionary tale, it's not a reason to shirk experimentation. I'm hot-and-cold on... well, on Rush in general, but the 80s stuff especially. There are whole swathes I just can't abide. (I do love GUP and RTB, mind - nineties, yes, but similar era.) But even though I'm not a fan of the music they produced, I'm glad they chose to take that risk rather than play it safe.

I think risks are a good thing, but I think a signature style and a distinct voice is something a lot of homogenous bands would absolutely kill for, and I think it's something to treasure - and the two aren't incompatible. Listen to all the copycat prog metal bands, who really, really can't do it. It's not as simple as "risks good, safety bad." I think it's very important to feel free, to feel creatively rich, and to feel that you can push that envelope when you want to. But I think it's often very canny not to destroy the envelope entirely, and I think even when you're working in a familiar style, that doesn't mean there's nothing new to say.

Having a signature sound doesn't make you creatively bereft. Frankly, it's a gift, and all the best artists know it. There are absolutely times when I've wished DT would take more risks, and I think Mike Portnoy, by the end of his leadership, genuinely was running out of things to say, but from the vibe of these interviews it sounds like they've got their heads screwed on right - they're clearly aiming for balance, rather than safety. But everyone's just taking the "must sound like DT" bit and spinning it like it's the whole statement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 18, 2014, 01:00:46 PM
Some good discussion going on here. :coolio

Sometimes, experiments can be a turnoff at first, but time can be kind to them.  For example, Train of Thought was DT going full metal and full tilt with their showing off, which was a bit turnoff for me at first, and I was openly critical of that album on the old dt.net, but time has been kind to it, and when you look at in the context of the entire discography, it snuggles in nicely in between the experimental Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and the more laid back, prog-driven Octavarium. 

Same with 80s synth era Rush.  I do sometimes wonder how I would have reacted to albums like Power Windows and Hold Your Fire had I been a fan at the time, but being that I didn't get into the band until late '91, I kind of got hit with the first 14 albums all at once (or more accurately, over the course of 9-10 months), so I never experienced that "I am used to Rush doing this, and then all of a sudden, they took a wide turn and did this" feeling.

Actually, U2 is a good example.  While my interest in them was waning in the 90s anyway thanks to classic rock and then prog taking over my musical soul for years, stuff like Zooropa and Pop were total turnoffs at the time.  But when I got back into the band big time about five years ago, I discovered that those albums are actually good (albeit not among their best). 

In other words, hindsight and time can really help. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 01:17:32 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 18, 2014, 01:00:46 PM
Sometimes, experiments can be a turnoff at first, but time can be kind to them.  For example, Train of Thought was DT going full metal and full tilt with their showing off, which was a bit turnoff for me at first, and I was openly critical of that album on the old dt.net, but time has been kind to it, and when you look at in the context of the entire discography, it snuggles in nicely in between the experimental Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence and the more laid back, prog-driven Octavarium. 

In other words, hindsight and time can really help. :biggrin:
It's funny, innit! I think one of the problems, is that when an album's released, that's not "just another Dream Theater album," it's every two years. That's rarer than Christmas! After the six week promotion period, everyone's fully hyped, and for the entire cycle, it's that album's job to be all things to all people. And it never can be - especially not if it ploughs a very particular niche. As soon as it's not the present album, it stops being a threat, it becomes just another Dream Theater album, and it's easier to appreciate a non-current album for what it is rather than dwell on the missed opportunity of what it wasn't.

The other thing, is that people interpret the latest album as a direction. It's their current trajectory. This doesn't tend to bare out with Dream Theater in real life, the following album has more often been an equal-and-opposite reaction. (Six Degrees, ToT, Octavarium, Systematic Chaos are a great example!) I'm guilty of this, too, I found BCSL disappointing because I figured it was them rehashing SC, I figured it was a band whose batteries were running out. In hindsight, there might've been some truth to that - Mike Portnoy (or, as he was at the time, Mr. Dream Theater's) batteries were running out, and he'd achieved everything he really wanted to with the band, and needed to take a break. The following album didn't continue that trajectory, though. Although it was another relatively safe album, (arguably safer than BCSL!) it sounded like they were re-invigorated. That's the difference between taking risks and having something to say. For me, anyway.

All albums get reappraised. Generally, the older they are, the more liked they are. Depressingly, at least a little bit of that is because the people who were truly repelled by the album don't come back, so the fanbase is increasingly made of people who are basically okay with the majority of their catalogue. (Not that depressing - the fanbase is swelling, not shrinking, so for every person an album sheds more are arriving!) But I think the former two are bigger factors. It wasn't that long ago SDoIT was fairly controversial. I remember constant criticism of Misunderstood, The Great Debate, etc. etc. ToT's probably being reassessed now, I think we're at that phase, but it's SC I'm really looking forward to. I prefer Octavarium, but SC pressed (and continues to press!) a lot of buttons, for me, which I don't think it necessarily did for everyone else. I've got no delusions it's ever gonna be up there with Images and Words, but I think time will, eventually, be kind to it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 18, 2014, 01:22:39 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
I don't disagree by any means - but to give the other side its dues, I don't think Synthy Rush is a cautionary tale, it's not a reason to shirk experimentation. I'm hot-and-cold on... well, on Rush in general, but the 80s stuff especially. There are whole swathes I just can't abide. (I do love GUP and RTB, mind - nineties, yes, but similar era.) But even though I'm not a fan of the music they produced, I'm glad they chose to take that risk rather than play it safe.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Synthy Rush should be taken as a cautionary tale either -- I'll be the last guy to complain about Marathon or Red Sector A.  Risks can be a great thing and if DT does something totally out of left field, I'll support them every step of the way.  However, as you say, having a signature sound is an extremely valuable thing, and for better or for worse popular bands who shirk their signature sound are taking a risk from a commercial standpoint.  There's a good, sane, reasonable reason to say "this is the kind of music Dream Theater does, and if we release an album that doesn't fit in the box, we're not going to call it a Dream Theater album", and my comment was mostly meant to address the people in the thread who failed to understand why the band would intentionally box themselves in. 

There's a balancing act between doing something new or creatively interesting and keeping with the identity you've always had, and I think DT's done a pretty great job of doing that so far.  You've pointed out how adventurous the orchestral bit in IT is, which I agree with.  I don't think DT has any other song quite like Surrender to Reason, Behind the Veil, or Beneath the Surface, despite the fact that all of these songs have the signature DT sound.  I also think the importance of the brevity of the new album can't be overstated -- I've been so used to DT filling their albums with 10, 11, 12 minute songs that I forgot their first few albums weren't organized that way at all.  DT12 is the band at their punchiest.  Not to mention that the setlist for this tour is, on the whole, entirely unexpected, and entirely unlike what has come to be the "typical" DT set.  These aren't huge risks, but the band is clearly not content to churn out the same album over and over.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 01:28:41 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 18, 2014, 01:22:39 PM
To be clear, I'm not suggesting Synthy Rush should be taken as a cautionary tale either -- I'll be the last guy to complain about Marathon or Red Sector A.  Risks can be a great thing and if DT does something totally out of left field, I'll support them every step of the way.  However, as you say, having a signature sound is an extremely valuable thing, and for better or for worse popular bands who shirk their signature sound are taking a risk from a commercial standpoint.  There's a good, sane, reasonable reason to say "this is the kind of music Dream Theater does, and if we release an album that doesn't fit in the box, we're not going to call it a Dream Theater album", and my comment was mostly meant to address the people in the thread who failed to understand why the band would intentionally box themselves in.

There's a balancing act between doing something new or creatively interesting and keeping with the identity you've always had, and I think DT's done a pretty great job of doing that so far.  You've pointed out how adventurous the orchestral bit in IT is, which I agree with.  I don't think DT has any other song quite like Surrender to Reason, Behind the Veil, or Beneath the Surface, despite the fact that all of these songs have the signature DT sound.  I also think the importance of the brevity of the new album can't be overstated -- I've been so used to DT filling their albums with 10, 11, 12 minute songs that I forgot their first few albums weren't organized that way at all.  DT12 is the band at their punchiest.  Not to mention that the setlist for this tour is, on the whole, entirely unexpected, and entirely unlike what has come to be the "typical" DT set. The band is clearly not content to churn out the same album over and over.
I think we're on exactly the same page. I agree with everything you say, particularly about the (fantastic!) twelfth album - seriously, I could go on for pages!! - but it's the bit in bold that I think is crucial, and borne out in their words just as much as their actions! The blind spot, I'm sure, isn't conscious, but it's curious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
The lazy, cookie-cutter stereotype about Dream Theater is that they're all about showing off, and not about writing good songs.

It happened a lot since Systematic Chaos but i don't agree when people say this about all their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
The lazy, cookie-cutter stereotype about Dream Theater is that they're all about showing off, and not about writing good songs.

It happened a lot since Systematic Chaos but i don't agree when people say this about all their discography.
It's patently bollocks re: any album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 02:22:51 PM
Opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 18, 2014, 02:30:50 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 02:22:51 PM
Opinions.
Yeah, and you piggybacked mine to slag off the new stuff! Basically, "Hahaha, no."

DT12, along with Octavarium and FII, is the least culpable of the lot!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
?
The important part was "i don't agree when people say this about all their discography." so  :chill
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:20:12 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
?
The important part was "i don't agree when people say this about all their discography."
I'm astonished I'm responding to this again, but here I am...

"The last four albums haven't really engaged me on an emotional level, they might as well just be a flurry of notes." That's an opinion. But I wasn't talking about personal reactions, I was talking about the physical body of the music - the notes that actually make it up. They verifiably and measurably work on more levels than just "look at all the notes" - even if they don't for you personally, you can measure both in the physical design of the product and in the way the fans engage.

I'm not saying "Oh, the pope's lovely, he's such a gentleman," I was saying "He doesn't have tentacles or a pierced labia." And you came along and said "You're mostly right, but actually, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Frances do."

...No, they don't! You're welcome to challenge a fact, and you're welcome to your opinion - in fact, I think BCSL is among their weakest albums, too, so we'd probably get along - but I don't think it's fair to expect you can shoehorn that opinion into funky places and have everyone go, "Oh, yeah, that's a really interesting idea you've brought up, thanks for that Outcrier, I hadn't thought of it that way, you're really expanding our minds, man, 'preciate it."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 02:54:38 AM
I have to give a big :hefdaddy to robwebster posts, except where he mentions Muse, a band that I used to love but now it doesn't do much for me.(I'm not talking about their latest album, but the previous before that)

I'm one of the heartbroken ones when I read that JR interview, but I can't really blame them. Every time DT tried something different the fans gave them a hard time for it, Six Degrees is very praised now, but if you read comments from back in the day it wasn't. At all. I can do a mea culpa for it, even if I became a fan around 2010, it took me two years for everything post SFAM to finally click in. Probably since I was never a metal fan in the first place, and I still aren't, by the way :lol.

The same goes for other bands, especially on their U.S. fanbase, someone here mentioned U2, and Pop happens to be one of my favourites from them, but it wasn't well recieved back in the day and even a big band like U2 struggled during that day, playing to stadiums with only 10k people on them after having invested in that huge stage. It sold very well on everywhere else, but not the US, and since that is the biggest market, well... there you go. U2 went immediatly back to their roots after that, and they haven't ventured outside it since. And if U2 can't take that much risks, DT definetly needs to be more careful. Actually, both bands histories share some similarities as they both started shifting their styles from record to record until they reached their "core sound", All That You Can't Leave Behind and A Dramatic Turn Of Events, respectively.

Pink Floyd is another example of changing directions but staying within the framework. Yes, they were very innovative within their framework and released some true masterpieces, but they always stayed within their sound. I have trouble spoting one place where you say "WTF??? Is this Pink Floyd??".

Erwinrafael said Queen(the band that, along the other three I mentioned(DT, U2 and PF), conforms my personal "Big Four"), and that's a band with dramatic changes every time on their careers, but I think it's different than the other three I mentioned. The big difference is that Queen always sounded to me like four solo artists playing each other songs*. Unlike DT, who have very different creative forces but ultimately throw everything in the same pot and work each others ideas, Queen songs were written individually by each bands member. And, if you separate every track by member and follow their history, the evolution becomes much less dramatic. 9 times out of 10 I can spot a John Deacon song, or a Brian May song, not only on the lyrics but on the style as well. The only one who changed radically, was the genius mastermind that was Freddie Mercury, the others kind of stayed withing their frameworks only to come out of it on special ocassions.
That difference is, I think, what allowed Queen to go into any direction without suffering as much. Still, there are quite a few fans who frown upon their '80s direction.

Going back to DT, I have to jump on the FII wagon, all the other albums you can pair them or group them with similar others, not FII. Even when they play live you can tell that stuff is different from anything else they made, New Millenium, Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, Peruvian Skies, Just Let Me Breathe stand out immediatly more than anything else in the DT catalog IMHO. And if you go to its B Sides, Speak To Me or Cover My Eyes would stand out too, even if they wouldn't on a mainstream radio. DT goes so over the top with every song, that anytime they stay "traditional"(The Looking Glass) those song sound out of the box in their world :lol. It's like a novel that always goes to somewhere different in their argument, so the time when the argument goes in the expected direction, it surprises you more than any of the other times. Seriously, do the experiment, play DT on shuffle, every time a FII shows up it stands out even more than any of the "crazy" tracks, probably because in a world where crazy is the norm, it stops being crazy.

Finally, and I hoping someone gets here and isn't bored to death by my ramblings, I wouldn't take everything a DT band member says as written in stone. I heard numerous 2005/06 interviews of JP saying he preferred personal non-fictional songwriting to his early fantasy lyrics, even going so far as saying they were "juvenile and immature", the next thing he did was Systematic Chaos :lol. Personally, I would prefer a mix bag, not pulling a "Kid A" but incorporating some new stuff mixed with "classic DT". But, unlike this last album or previous ones, I would prefer "the experiment" to be a full song instead of a little section on a "classic DT" song. Prophets of War inside Systematic Chaos or Space Dye Vest inside Awake come to mind.

--------------------------------------
*I KNOW, that on The Miracle and Innuendo there were collaboratives efforts, but other than those, my description still stands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 19, 2014, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:20:12 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 18, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
?
The important part was "i don't agree when people say this about all their discography."
I'm astonished I'm responding to this again, but here I am...

"The last four albums haven't really engaged me on an emotional level, they might as well just be a flurry of notes." That's an opinion. But I wasn't talking about personal reactions, I was talking about the physical body of the music - the notes that actually make it up. They verifiably and measurably work on more levels than just "look at all the notes" - even if they don't for you personally, you can measure both in the physical design of the product and in the way the fans engage.

I'm not saying "Oh, the pope's lovely, he's such a gentleman," I was saying "He doesn't have tentacles or a pierced labia." And you came along and said "You're mostly right, but actually, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Frances do."

...No, they don't! You're welcome to challenge a fact, and you're welcome to your opinion - in fact, I think BCSL is among their weakest albums, too, so we'd probably get along - but I don't think it's fair to expect you can shoehorn that opinion into funky places and have everyone go, "Oh, yeah, that's a really interesting idea you've brought up, thanks for that Outcrier, I hadn't thought of it that way, you're really expanding our minds, man, 'preciate it."

You shouldn't have replied, i understood what you said but i'ts not like i care anyway, i mostly meant what i've bolded (some songs, not all of them) so it's not like i am challenging any fact or whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 19, 2014, 08:56:19 AM
Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 02:54:38 AM


Erwinrafael said Queen(the band that, along the other three I mentioned(DT, U2 and PF), conforms my personal "Big Four"), and that's a band with dramatic changes every time on their careers, but I think it's different than the other three I mentioned. The big difference is that Queen always sounded to me like four solo artists playing each other songs*. Unlike DT, who have very different creative forces but ultimately throw everything in the same pot and work each others ideas, Queen songs were written individually by each bands member. And, if you separate every track by member and follow their history, the evolution becomes much less dramatic. 9 times out of 10 I can spot a John Deacon song, or a Brian May song, not only on the lyrics but on the style as well. The only one who changed radically, was the genius mastermind that was Freddie Mercury, the others kind of stayed withing their frameworks only to come out of it on special ocassions.
That difference is, I think, what allowed Queen to go into any direction without suffering as much. Still, there are quite a few fans who frown upon their '80s direction.

 

All very true.  I remember one of the members of Queen saying that they lost the U.S., but won over the rest of the world in the 80s, alluding to the fact that their popularity dwindled a bit here in the States, but their popularity soared everywhere else.  Like we have said, when you go off the rails and do radically different things, you can't please everyone.  Hell, even when sticking to what most fans love the most, you still can't please everyone. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on March 19, 2014, 11:22:58 AM
My controversial opinion of the day: TROAE kind of suffers from being disjointed and most transitions between parts being not that great. Which is why it's probably my least or second least favourite on Octavarium, which doesn't really mean anything, since 8VM is an almost perfect album imo and I love every single song on it. But yeah, TROAE could probably have been even better with better transitions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 12:18:34 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 19, 2014, 08:56:19 AM
Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 02:54:38 AM


Erwinrafael said Queen(the band that, along the other three I mentioned(DT, U2 and PF), conforms my personal "Big Four"), and that's a band with dramatic changes every time on their careers, but I think it's different than the other three I mentioned. The big difference is that Queen always sounded to me like four solo artists playing each other songs*. Unlike DT, who have very different creative forces but ultimately throw everything in the same pot and work each others ideas, Queen songs were written individually by each bands member. And, if you separate every track by member and follow their history, the evolution becomes much less dramatic. 9 times out of 10 I can spot a John Deacon song, or a Brian May song, not only on the lyrics but on the style as well. The only one who changed radically, was the genius mastermind that was Freddie Mercury, the others kind of stayed withing their frameworks only to come out of it on special ocassions.
That difference is, I think, what allowed Queen to go into any direction without suffering as much. Still, there are quite a few fans who frown upon their '80s direction.

 

All very true.  I remember one of the members of Queen saying that they lost the U.S., but won over the rest of the world in the 80s, alluding to the fact that their popularity dwindled a bit here in the States, but their popularity soared everywhere else.  Like we have said, when you go off the rails and do radically different things, you can't please everyone.  Hell, even when sticking to what most fans love the most, you still can't please everyone. :lol :lol
This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere, which translates as "I don't know the key to success, but I know that key to failure is trying to please everyone". I'm translating from spanish, but the message is kind of the same.

By the way, it's funny aprilethereal that TROAE was the song that brought me back to DT when I was in the "everything post-SFAM sucks" state of mind :P, so no, I don't think it's disjointed, I actually find it to flow very well and it's one of the most compact and accesible of the whole 12 Step Suite. But I guess it wouldn't be controversial if I agreed on it :lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 19, 2014, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on March 19, 2014, 11:22:58 AM
My controversial opinion of the day: TROAE kind of suffers from being disjointed and most transitions between parts being not that great. Which is why it's probably my least or second least favourite on Octavarium, which doesn't really mean anything, since 8VM is an almost perfect album imo and I love every single song on it. But yeah, TROAE could probably have been even better with better transitions.

I'm going to add to this controversial opinion: I don't think TROAE is all that great either. It's probably my least favorite from the 12SS, and mid-range for Octavarium. I like some of the transitions and the reprise of This Dying Soul, but it takes too long to get going, and the riffing sounds very generic to me. High points: The chorus, "humility now my only hope", Octavarium theme outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 19, 2014, 02:15:45 PM
Imho TROAE is a top-20 DT song.  The chorus is one of DT's best and the riff is amazing. No idea what you find generic about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on March 19, 2014, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: aprilethereal on March 19, 2014, 11:22:58 AM
My controversial opinion of the day: TROAE kind of suffers from being disjointed and most transitions between parts being not that great. Which is why it's probably my least or second least favourite on Octavarium, which doesn't really mean anything, since 8VM is an almost perfect album imo and I love every single song on it. But yeah, TROAE could probably have been even better with better transitions.

I'm going to add to this controversial opinion: I don't think TROAE is all that great either. It's probably my least favorite from the 12SS, and mid-range for Octavarium. I like some of the transitions and the reprise of This Dying Soul, but it takes too long to get going, and the riffing sounds very generic to me. High points: The chorus, "humility now my only hope", Octavarium theme outro.
Oooooh! That might be genuinely controversial! And surprisingly controversial, actually. It's not one of those all-time classics everyone talks about constantly, but it's a really solid and well-beloved track. I think it's become accepted as a sort of modern classic without anyone really mentioning.

It's always, historically, been right in my top ten. It spent a very, very long time as my second favourite Dream Theater song. So I think I'm probably way off in the other direction. But it's an interesting opinion - I don't share it, but I can definitely see it. And it's interesting that it's interesting. I never noticed that TRoAE tends to be generally accepted as a really very good song until you and aprilethereal came along saying the opposite. I always sort of assumed it was just me!

Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 02:54:38 AM
[...] except where he mentions Muse, a band that I used to love but now it doesn't do much for me.(I'm not talking about their latest album, but the previous before that)
Funnily, I sort of agree with you, there! I do really dig The Resistance, but I think it's a little weaker than the albums either side. Black Holes is superb. The 2nd Law is superb. The Resistance is just neat.

Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 02:54:38 AM
Finally, and I hoping someone gets here and isn't bored to death by my ramblings, I wouldn't take everything a DT band member says as written in stone. I heard numerous 2005/06 interviews of JP saying he preferred personal non-fictional songwriting to his early fantasy lyrics, even going so far as saying they were "juvenile and immature", the next thing he did was Systematic Chaos :lol. Personally, I would prefer a mix bag, not pulling a "Kid A" but incorporating some new stuff mixed with "classic DT". But, unlike this last album or previous ones, I would prefer "the experiment" to be a full song instead of a little section on a "classic DT" song. Prophets of War inside Systematic Chaos or Space Dye Vest inside Awake come to mind.
I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.

But they've written that album, now, and I don't think I'd want them to do it again. Keep some of what they've learnt, keep that taut songwriting and the incredible basslines, but I love that "What the fuck is this?!" There are moments of genuine surprise on DT12, and plenty of new ground trodden, but while The Embracing Circle is plenty surprising, it's not wild. I think the last time I got that horror with Dream Theater, funnily, was The Dark Eternal Night. (Another song that's spent untold time in my top ten - so much character!) It's just another voice, now, but at the time, it was everything Dream Theater was, violently clashing with everything Dream Theater wasn't. It was like Slipknot's cover of The Dance of Eternity. I still think it's brilliant. There we go, that's my controversial opinion. "More of that Systematic Chaos magic next time, please."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on March 19, 2014, 04:22:03 PM
Don't get me wrong though, I really love TROAE, it's just that I think some of the transitions, or lack thereof, kind of weaken it a little.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 19, 2014, 06:50:08 PM
TROAE is pretty generic. I still like it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 19, 2014, 07:17:10 PM
TORAE has the single best riff that JP has ever written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 19, 2014, 07:23:59 PM
Just no lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 19, 2014, 07:27:49 PM
It's a great riff. Among JP's most memorable actually. It was one of the defining riffs from DT for me as I was getting into them, but I feel that he still has much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
He's churned out so many great riffs over the course of their career. Every album including the terrible ones has great riffs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 19, 2014, 08:01:21 PM
Yup, he's got a ton of great riffs. And TROAE is the best of them.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:19:04 PM
Funnily, I sort of agree with you, there! I do really dig The Resistance, but I think it's a little weaker than the albums either side. Black Holes is superb. The 2nd Law is superb. The Resistance is just neat.
I haven't heard The 2nd Law :facepalm: I have to make that right some day... But off The Resistance the only songs I still hear are MK Ultra and Unnatural Selection, all the others are just not for me. I could always cope with Muse somewhat poor lyrics but on that album I just can't. :sad:

Quote from: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:19:04 PM

I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.
Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake ;)(and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks :)). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.

Quote from: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:19:04 PM
But they've written that album, now, and I don't think I'd want them to do it again. Keep some of what they've learnt, keep that taut songwriting and the incredible basslines, but I love that "What the fuck is this?!" There are moments of genuine surprise on DT12, and plenty of new ground trodden, but while The Embracing Circle is plenty surprising, it's not wild. I think the last time I got that horror with Dream Theater, funnily, was The Dark Eternal Night. (Another song that's spent untold time in my top ten - so much character!) It's just another voice, now, but at the time, it was everything Dream Theater was, violently clashing with everything Dream Theater wasn't. It was like Slipknot's cover of The Dance of Eternity. I still think it's brilliant. There we go, that's my controversial opinion. "More of that Systematic Chaos magic next time, please."
The last WTF moment for me was A Nightmare To Remember ROAAAAAAAAR :D, but SC has more of those moments. Although I like TDEN, I prefer the WTF moments of 6DOIT, Train of Thought and Octavarium. But as long as they do something completely off at least for one song, I'll be happy. Still, I have to say that even DT12 has that "classic" album feel, it wasn't as predictable as most ADTOE. I never expected the ballads to go heavy or viceversa, Behind The Veil surprised me all along first with this heavy riffing and James aggresive singing and then going melodic on the chorus, The Bigger Picture had plenty of surprises too("ok, now the song ended, no! it keeps going! it's going to come back to the chorus... Wow, ANOTHER section altogether!"), Along For The Ride didn't stay ballady but evolved, and I don't have to say that Illumination Theory was one surprise after the other. The only thing that I found missing were those WTF moments, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe that craziness wasn't for this album.

The thing that I like the most of DT12 is that now I have no idea what to hope for next, I still haven't figured out if this self title thing is a message to their past or their future or both, is the next album going to stay on this vein or that was just a farewell. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

EDIT: Fixed some things I forgot to include!

Oh, and The Root Of All Evil riff is a Top 10 for JP riffs for sure! "Driven blindly by our sins, misled so easily" :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on March 20, 2014, 02:43:33 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

Interestingly enough I've come to like TSF a lot this year and the transitions don't bother me at all, although you're definitely right about the copy & paste feel. I just think it somehow works.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 20, 2014, 07:01:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 20, 2014, 01:22:04 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
It's funny, cos I can see what bothers people, and it's the kind of thing that might bother me in other songs. I think it's momentum - TROAE pushes on, keeps ploughing through, and while the riffs clash a little, I go along with it.

Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 19, 2014, 02:19:04 PM
I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.
Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake ;)(and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks :)). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.
The other albums have a lot of great music, and you can absolutely argue that there's not a note out of place, but it's a slightly different thing - they're not taut in the same way. I feel like if they wrote PMU for DT12, it'd be six minutes long and sharp as a razor. DT12 sounds like they really focused on making an album where every note counts, whereas the others are fuller figured, but just happen to be albums where most every note's a pleasure?

Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Still, I have to say that even DT12 has that "classic" album feel, it wasn't as predictable as most ADTOE. I never expected the ballads to go heavy or viceversa, Behind The Veil surprised me all along first with this heavy riffing and James aggresive singing and then going melodic on the chorus, The Bigger Picture had plenty of surprises too("ok, now the song ended, no! it keeps going! it's going to come back to the chorus... Wow, ANOTHER section altogether!"), Along For The Ride didn't stay ballady but evolved, and I don't have to say that Illumination Theory was one surprise after the other. The only thing that I found missing were those WTF moments, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe that craziness wasn't for this album.
Absolutely! Yes, that's exactly what I always say. It's classic DT, but with a brand new voice, new accent, emphasis in different places. Age old and brand new, both at the same time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 20, 2014, 02:11:39 PM
Quote from: Bolsters on March 17, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 17, 2014, 09:48:22 PM
Forsaken is way better than Space-Dye Vest. There.
(https://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o669/bolsters/vomit.gif~original)

Don´t hate me, but I agree as well. I could never get Space-Dye Vest and the praise it receives. It´s cool that they´re playing it now for the first time and everything, but I´d take anything from SysChaos or BCSL over SDV.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 20, 2014, 02:37:58 PM
You know, I really couldn't tell you whether or not this is controversial, but having given DT12 another spin after some time away from it, I come to find myself surprised at just how fresh it still sounds. I figured at first all the charm had waned on me, but it's a pleasant surprise to find just how satisfying the entire thing is.

In regards to SDV, it's a fantastic song and one of DT's most unique, but I really don't put it on this pedestal most seem to here. I can't say I'd take any song from SC or BC&SL over it, but there are certainly choice songs from both that I would.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 20, 2014, 03:08:29 PM
I'm not saying I don't like TRAOE of course  ;D It actually just missed out on my top 50.

Quote from: jakepriest on March 19, 2014, 02:15:45 PM
Imho TROAE is a top-20 DT song.  The chorus is one of DT's best and the riff is amazing. No idea what you find generic about it.

It is a good riff no doubt, but aren't all of JP's riffs "good?" When I think of generic riffs in that song, the verses and the solo section riffs come to mind more so. Idk, as a whole the song is not very exciting for me.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

I love that little keyboard section!

TSF is probably my 4th on 12SS. As a standalone song, I could see it being pretty inconsistent. But as a finale to the 12SS, I think it does everything it was meant to do. All of the reprises, the mashups... Great! On BC&SL? Kind of a chore to get through. In this song's case, the individual parts (especially the last 3-4 minutes, damn what an ending!) make up for its standalone inconsistency.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 20, 2014, 03:23:31 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 20, 2014, 01:22:04 PM

Quote from: Invisible on March 19, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake ;)(and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks :)). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.
The other albums have a lot of great music, and you can absolutely argue that there's not a note out of place, but it's a slightly different thing - they're not taut in the same way. I feel like if they wrote PMU for DT12, it'd be six minutes long and sharp as a razor. DT12 sounds like they really focused on making an album where every note counts, whereas the others are fuller figured, but just happen to be albums where most every note's a pleasure?
I actually meant Awake more than the others, I said the others were more up to the listener if they are out of place or not, but Awake is certainly every bit as focused as DT12. Yes, it has the wacky Erotomania, but DT12 has Enigma Machine, and Awake has the unpredictable Scarred, DT12 has IT. I'm not saying the two albums are similar, but they are similar in the way they are extremely focused. Of course, DT12 has a more intentional we-ve-been-doing-this-for-more-than-20-years approach that obviously Awake hasn't, since the band was way younger and not that experienced, but aside from that, the end product is very similar in that particular way.

EDIT:
Oh, and I love Space Dye Vest, but have to admit I was surprised that there are that many people who like that song, it's incredibly different from anything DT has ever done and I get that it's not anyone cup of tea. Very moody song, only fits on very specific occasions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 21, 2014, 01:11:01 AM
Quote from: Nearmyth on March 20, 2014, 03:08:29 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 19, 2014, 10:17:07 PM
TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

I love that little keyboard section!

TSF is probably my 4th on 12SS. As a standalone song, I could see it being pretty inconsistent. But as a finale to the 12SS, I think it does everything it was meant to do. All of the reprises, the mashups... Great! On BC&SL? Kind of a chore to get through. In this song's case, the individual parts (especially the last 3-4 minutes, damn what an ending!) make up for its standalone inconsistency.

It certainly does work a lot better in the context of the whole 12SS, something which surprised me a little given my opinion of it as a standalone song. The original sections are good, and all of the reprisals and variations of old themes are well done, it's largely the transitions that bring it down for me, and it is a bit padded. But the few occasions I've taken the time to blast the 12SS in one go, it gets the job done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on March 22, 2014, 05:21:55 AM
I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 22, 2014, 07:06:29 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 22, 2014, 05:21:55 AM
I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

I think liking it would be more controversial. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 22, 2014, 07:55:52 AM
Yeah the new video is pretty rough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 22, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
Are you guys expecting a well produced video with minimal backing from a band that does not have he money backing like a Lady Gaga ect...


Have some common sense will you folks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 22, 2014, 08:12:23 AM
No, just a decent one. JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 22, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
I'm expecting it to not be cringeworthy and actually make some sense, yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 22, 2014, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 22, 2014, 08:12:23 AM
No, just a decent one. JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."


 :lol

The money from the record company backing the video you young fool.  Not the Lady Gaga stuff. :lol

Quote from: jakepriest on March 22, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
I'm expecting it to not be cringeworthy and actually make some sense, yes.

And video's making sense?!  What planet are you from?  You have seen music video's right?! :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 22, 2014, 01:10:55 PM
I don't quite see how the video is making any sense at all. Please enlighten me Mr. Planet.  :rollin

(https://global3.memecdn.com/meet-ahmed-angel-he-is-planet-and-very-hand-some_fb_1932305.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on March 22, 2014, 01:18:02 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 22, 2014, 07:06:29 AM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 22, 2014, 05:21:55 AM
I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

I think liking it would be more controversial. :neverusethis:

Fair enough.

Controversial opinion of the day: I like the Enigma Machine video. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 22, 2014, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 22, 2014, 05:21:55 AM
I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

My theory is that the choreographer never actually heard the tune. Maybe he was told the title and then went from there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 22, 2014, 03:11:31 PM
I absolutely love that album cover! :lol

But seriously.  Most videos storyline have nothing to do with the song meaning.  I don't expect a band like DT to put money into a video that will not bare the fruit it should.  Not too much exposure for a prog metal band on TV these days and only the core audience will watch it on line.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 22, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
Quote from: Tis BOOLsheet on March 22, 2014, 08:12:23 AM
JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."
In my book, he absolutely does. Twerk baby twerk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on March 22, 2014, 05:57:37 PM
I'm with Mora, that sounds like money  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 23, 2014, 12:44:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 22, 2014, 01:45:49 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on March 22, 2014, 05:21:55 AM
I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

My theory is that the choreographer never actually heard the tune. Maybe he was told the title and then went from there.

The way it was edited with the slow-mos, and effects suggests to me there wasn't any kind of sync.
If I was watching that video without knowing months in advance that a dance group was apparently choreographing to a DT song, I wouldn't have thought that the dancers were supposed o be syncing to the song. It just appears that they're part of the video's subject matter, and I don't know how dancers relate to a high energy instrumental track named after a device used to send encoded messages during WW2. If even we find this video bizarre, I can only imagine what anyone outside of this forum will think. I don't think this video will benefit DT in any way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 03:54:52 PM
I know DT is made up of musicians, but it still stuns me how poor-quality their non-musical stuff is. I mean, three videos from this album, all of which have been received poorly. And their merchandize situation is not particularly better. I'm seeing them on Tuesday, and as usual I will walk to the merch stand at some point during the concert. I suspect it will end as usual too, with me not liking a single item.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 23, 2014, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 03:54:52 PM
I know DT is made up of musicians, but it still stuns me how poor-quality their non-musical stuff is. I mean, three videos from this album, all of which have been received poorly. And their merchandize situation is not particularly better. I'm seeing them on Tuesday, and as usual I will walk to the merch stand at some point during the concert. I suspect it will end as usual too, with me not liking a single item.
I think their merch is great! They've got some great designs this time around, not the least of which is the new album cover T-Shirt.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 23, 2014, 04:13:34 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 03:54:52 PM
I know DT is made up of musicians, but it still stuns me how poor-quality their non-musical stuff is. I mean, three videos from this album, all of which have been received poorly. And their merchandize situation is not particularly better. I'm seeing them on Tuesday, and as usual I will walk to the merch stand at some point during the concert. I suspect it will end as usual too, with me not liking a single item.

Most will not fit me anyway. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:23:24 PM
Frankly, for half of them you could just go to cafepress.com and slap the album cover on the shirt/hoodie of your choice and size.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 23, 2014, 04:30:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:23:24 PM
Frankly, for half of them you could just go to cafepress.com and slap the album cover on the shirt/hoodie of your choice and size.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this differs from every other piece of merch sold by every other band in the world.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 23, 2014, 04:35:44 PM
The last time rumby brought this up, he posted a picture of an older DT shirt he really liked... which was just the SDOIT album cover slapped on a white T-shirt.  I've given up trying to understand that particular complaint.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:43:25 PM
The SDOIT shirt worked because the album cover already was great, and on top they choose a shirt where the color matched nicely with the album color.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 23, 2014, 04:44:25 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:43:25 PM
The SDOIT shirt worked because the album cover already was great, and on top they choose a shirt where the color matched nicely with the album color.

That's a good point. Funny thing is, the new album cover is also great, and putting it on a black T-Shirt makes the color match very nicely!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on March 23, 2014, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 03:54:52 PM
I know DT is made up of musicians, but it still stuns me how poor-quality their non-musical stuff is. I mean, three videos from this album, all of which have been received poorly. And their merchandize situation is not particularly better. I'm seeing them on Tuesday, and as usual I will walk to the merch stand at some point during the concert. I suspect it will end as usual too, with me not liking a single item.

I think the merch is better this time around (pretty much anything can be better than ADToE's cover on shirts, though), and there's actually more than one item I'd buy. Regarding the videos, I never fully watched The Enemy Inside's because people said the band didn't appear on it at any point, so it wouldn't appeal to my taste. The Looking Glass, I think it's the best video they've done after Wither (I enjoyed the format of that one, but it's just my opinion I think) and I have seen it more than once, which already says something.

In any case, both of those videos have the [OFFICIAL VIDEO] tag, at least on YouTube, whereas Enigma Machine's only says "Dream Theater - Enigma Machine". I don't know if that should be interpreted as the video not being official or something, but I certainly can see a meaning to it. Other than that, I guess it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't good either and they could've done a lot better, even if they had used Mika's video from the tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 05:53:43 PM
The video has the RR logo in it, so that makes it official I would say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 23, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
My problem with DT (and most band merch) is that everything is on a black t-shirt. If I see anything on a brighter shirt color, there is a really good chance I'll buy it. Black? Eh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 23, 2014, 06:15:14 PM
Quote from: Implode on March 23, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
My problem with DT (and most band merch) is that everything is on a black t-shirt. If I see anything on a brighter shirt color, there is a really good chance I'll buy it. Black? Eh.

A BIG +1 to this.   I had a collection of concert tee's going, and really got sick of having **ALL** my T-shirts be black.   Now, when I go to a concert, anything that is NOT black is usually an automatic buy. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 06:53:44 PM
That's why I like my Rush shirt. It's a nice red with a cool design on it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on March 23, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: Implode on March 23, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
My problem with DT (and most band merch) is that everything is on a black t-shirt. If I see anything on a brighter shirt color, there is a really good chance I'll buy it. Black? Eh.

My most used DT shirt is gray, actually  :lol So I get your point, but I don't complain about the black since it fits with pretty much any other color. Of course, having the shirts be another color certainly makes them more interesting and perhaps somewhat of a rarity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 23, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 23, 2014, 04:30:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:23:24 PM
Frankly, for half of them you could just go to cafepress.com and slap the album cover on the shirt/hoodie of your choice and size.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this differs from every other piece of merch sold by every other band in the world.

Then you must be into the wrong bands. :lol :P

Let's petition the band for real action figures! :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 23, 2014, 09:28:07 PM
I think the t-shirts have improved. Some of them are just odd-- there's one with a diamond or something on it -- but they have a cool graffiti one and a 1-2 more that I would wear. I got the grey one with the band as cartoon characters. I still think that's the best one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 23, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 23, 2014, 09:14:50 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 23, 2014, 04:30:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 04:23:24 PM
Frankly, for half of them you could just go to cafepress.com and slap the album cover on the shirt/hoodie of your choice and size.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this differs from every other piece of merch sold by every other band in the world.

Then you must be into the wrong bands. :lol :P

Let's petition the band for real action figures! :neverusethis:
Isn't that illegal? I think my school store offers that service now, and I've always contemplated getting a DT hat made at Lids.
And I would buy a Jordan Rudez/James Labrie/Bear Action Figgur in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 09:29:56 PM
IFor the last tour they had one with a green diamond that looked rather Vapor Trailish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on March 24, 2014, 09:08:37 AM
Yeah I agree a lot with everything that has been said about the merchandise. The black(it's not even dark, it's just black) colour scheme is quite unimaginative and bland. SDOIT - Tshirt sounds pretty awesome, though, I'd love to wear that. Shame that you can't really find them anymore, unless you try to find a fitting T-shirt and print a logo on it.

Some of the hoodies seem quite nice, however. Like one or two of them. Women's shirts also appear to have better designs than men's, or at least featuring more variation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 24, 2014, 01:49:33 PM
Quote from: jammindude on March 23, 2014, 06:15:14 PM
Quote from: Implode on March 23, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
My problem with DT (and most band merch) is that everything is on a black t-shirt. If I see anything on a brighter shirt color, there is a really good chance I'll buy it. Black? Eh.

A BIG +1 to this.   I had a collection of concert tee's going, and really got sick of having **ALL** my T-shirts be black.   Now, when I go to a concert, anything that is NOT black is usually an automatic buy.
They had a great range around the Octavarium tour. I mean, it wasn't like this rainbow of t-shirts, but they had a white one with an octopus, and a grey one with a maze. I think they had a green one the following year - I'm sure my brother's got a green one. Decent selection. Narrower, now, that's true. That said, I got two when I caught them this tour, both black, and I'm happy with both, so - eh. It's not like I'm lacking colour in my wardrobe, and black's pretty decent for t-shirts in general.

I ended up getting a bootleg hoodie from the pavement outside, on the BCSL tour. It was cheap and badass, I regret nothing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 24, 2014, 02:04:39 PM
I have that green one! It's a fine shirt. Wasn't there a light blue shirt for the ADTOE tour or something? If not, a sky blue shirt with clouds and the cyclist on the front would've been great. I also wish they'd have more shirts without the band name on them. I'm a fan of more subtle things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 24, 2014, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2014, 09:29:56 PM
IFor the last tour they had one with a green diamond that looked rather Vapor Trailish.

Breaking All Illusions has the art in the ADTOE liner notes...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 24, 2014, 02:19:20 PM
Well, it's Hugh Syme.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 24, 2014, 10:46:05 PM
Haha half the bands on bandcamp have better merch than DT. A lot of that stems from pretty weak album art over the years.

Here's another controversial opinion:

This Dying Soul is a seriously underrated song. Not sure why it doesn't get more love from the fans. Behind TGP, it's my second favorite 12 step song. It's extremely heavy but beyond that there is a raw intensity that I feel is kind of lacking on the last few albums since ToT.  Portnoy also completely dominates on drums in the second half of that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 24, 2014, 11:39:29 PM
I thought fans loved This Dying Soul  :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 24, 2014, 11:41:41 PM
I think most people on this forum are probably on the ball with it. It definitely fits into the "typical DT wankery" that so many often complain about.

I love TDS. As Volante said, it's my favorite 12SS song behind TGP. Moments are so incredibly heavy and there's tons of riffage to be had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 24, 2014, 11:43:36 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2014, 10:46:05 PM
Haha half the bands on bandcamp have better merch than DT. A lot of that stems from pretty weak album art over the years.

Here's another controversial opinion:

This Dying Soul is a seriously underrated song. Not sure why it doesn't get more love from the fans. Behind TGP, it's my second favorite 12 step song. It's extremely heavy but beyond that there is a raw intensity that I feel is kind of lacking on the last few albums since ToT.  Portnoy also completely dominates on drums in the second half of that song.

This is pretty much the consensus from the fan base in general. 

I *believe* that in the majority of cases the list of favorites goes...

1. The Glass Prison
2. This Dying Soul
3. The Root of All Evil
4. The Shattered Fortress
5. Repentance

Occasionally, 2 and 3 switch places...and occasionally 4 and 5 will switch places.   But I think this is probably the most common consensus. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 25, 2014, 12:13:58 AM
According to the last poll on this site, This Dying Soul got 4th place ahead of only Repentance, which may have to do with the fact that TGP dominated the poll. Wasn't getting too much love on that thread.

With that said, I feel like TDS is never put up there with the great classic DT songs and I think it should. But I'm a Portnoy fan-boy and think the 12-step suite is one of the band's greatest, if not THE greatest, musical achievements, so take that for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 25, 2014, 07:56:00 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 25, 2014, 12:13:58 AM
According to the last poll on this site, This Dying Soul got 4th place ahead of only Repentance, which may have to do with the fact that TGP dominated the poll. Wasn't getting too much love on that thread.
If the poll only allowed one vote, then it doesn't reflect on how the song is considered, because for most of the people who voted for TGP This Dying Soul was probably their second option, and that is not reflected on the voting. I think jammingdude is probably right about the general view of the fans, even though my ranking is completely different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 25, 2014, 09:51:46 AM
Quote from: jammindude on March 24, 2014, 11:43:36 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2014, 10:46:05 PM
Haha half the bands on bandcamp have better merch than DT. A lot of that stems from pretty weak album art over the years.

Here's another controversial opinion:

This Dying Soul is a seriously underrated song. Not sure why it doesn't get more love from the fans. Behind TGP, it's my second favorite 12 step song. It's extremely heavy but beyond that there is a raw intensity that I feel is kind of lacking on the last few albums since ToT.  Portnoy also completely dominates on drums in the second half of that song.

This is pretty much the consensus from the fan base in general. 

I *believe* that in the majority of cases the list of favorites goes...

1. The Glass Prison
2. This Dying Soul
3. The Root of All Evil
4. The Shattered Fortress
5. Repentance

Occasionally, 2 and 3 switch places...and occasionally 4 and 5 will switch places.   But I think this is probably the most common consensus.
No, most fans aren't enamored with This Dying Soul.  Most fans here through the years have much preferred TROAE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 25, 2014, 09:54:43 AM
Yep, I know a lot of fans aren't overly wild about This Dying Soul, myself included.  It is probably my least favorite 12-step song, the worst song from ToT, and would be in my bottom 15 DT songs ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 25, 2014, 10:16:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 25, 2014, 09:51:46 AM
Quote from: jammindude on March 24, 2014, 11:43:36 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2014, 10:46:05 PM
Haha half the bands on bandcamp have better merch than DT. A lot of that stems from pretty weak album art over the years.

Here's another controversial opinion:

This Dying Soul is a seriously underrated song. Not sure why it doesn't get more love from the fans. Behind TGP, it's my second favorite 12 step song. It's extremely heavy but beyond that there is a raw intensity that I feel is kind of lacking on the last few albums since ToT.  Portnoy also completely dominates on drums in the second half of that song.

This is pretty much the consensus from the fan base in general. 

I *believe* that in the majority of cases the list of favorites goes...

1. The Glass Prison
2. This Dying Soul
3. The Root of All Evil
4. The Shattered Fortress
5. Repentance

Occasionally, 2 and 3 switch places...and occasionally 4 and 5 will switch places.   But I think this is probably the most common consensus.
No, most fans aren't enamored with This Dying Soul.  Most fans here through the years have much preferred TROAE.

I would put TROE above TDS myself...but that is not the tendency I have seen from the fanbase at large. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: son_ov_hades on March 25, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
This Dying Soul is awful it was the song that made me stop listening to the band for a few years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2014, 10:23:10 AM
This Dying Soul is a great song, although I'd place it 3rd in the 12SS behind TGP, and TROAE. I think the general consensus would be about that same order.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 25, 2014, 10:28:55 AM
 This is how the 12SS ranks for me currently:

1. The Root of All Evil
2. The Shattered Fortress
3. The Glass Prison
4. This Dying Soul
5. Repentance
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 25, 2014, 10:51:07 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2014, 10:23:10 AM
This Dying Soul is a great song, although I'd place it 3rd in the 12SS behind TGP, and TROAE. I think the general consensus would be about that same order.

Yep, this exactly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 25, 2014, 02:21:18 PM
 I am a lover of TDS as well! :tup I think it's a really great song.

I place it right behind The Glass Prison:

1. The Glass Prison
2. This Dying Soul
3. Repentance
4. TSF
5. TROAE

I already had a convo like this a couple pages back, but my listing seems to differ from the general consensus usually, having put TROAE so low and Repentance as high as it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 25, 2014, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

You mean like they went commercial with Octavarium?  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 25, 2014, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM


Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
 

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Konrad on March 25, 2014, 02:40:09 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

Agreed
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 25, 2014, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
And that's easily the worst part of that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on March 25, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

I think this is more the production's fault than Mangini's playing itself. He plays with lots of subtleties and feeling, but it just gets lost with this mediocre sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 25, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on March 25, 2014, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

I think this is more the production's fault than Mangini's playing itself. He plays with lots of subtleties and feeling, but it just gets lost with this mediocre sound.

I don't think it's the production. I think it's a misuse of words and an inability/unwillingness to hear "feeling."

The production is pretty bad, no doubt. But I suspect s/he was referring to something else. But ultimately what exactly is meant by "feeling" is anyone's guess. It's probably similar to when people who don't actually listen to John Petrucci's playing try to tell me "he has no feeling in his playing."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 25, 2014, 05:52:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I agree, somewhat. They're definitely trying to get more popular and get themselves out there more, but that's what DT has always done.

When it comes to the songs on DT12, they're definitely a bit simpler to fit that brief, concise songwriting style. To me, this made the album get old pretty quick. Save IT, the only song that actually took me a while to "get" was Surrender To Reason. The rest of the songs you got the gist of it on the first listen. This is really only a bad thing for me because I enjoy when a song takes a while to sink in, and has songwriting that you can pick apart  ;D

Doesn't mean the songs aren't good of course, and DT has always had commercial friendly songs (ex., like mentioned earlier, basically everything on Octavarium besides the title track).

I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.

Wow, didn't mean to turn this into a mini DT12 review. I tend to ramble :blush
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 25, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 25, 2014, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM


Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
 

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.

It really doesn't matter how commercial it is if it is good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 25, 2014, 06:42:59 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on March 25, 2014, 05:52:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!

I agree, somewhat. They're definitely trying to get more popular and get themselves out there more, but that's what DT has always done.

When it comes to the songs on DT12, they're definitely a bit simpler to fit that brief, concise songwriting style. To me, this made the album get old pretty quick. Save IT, the only song that actually took me a while to "get" was Surrender To Reason. The rest of the songs you got the gist of it on the first listen. This is really only a bad thing for me because I enjoy when a song takes a while to sink in, and has songwriting that you can pick apart  ;D

Doesn't mean the songs aren't good of course, and DT has always had commercial friendly songs (ex., like mentioned earlier, basically everything on Octavarium besides the title track).

I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.

Wow, didn't mean to turn this into a mini DT12 review. I tend to ramble :blush

My point with Octavarium though was that just because they do things a certain way on one album that doesn't mean they're "Becoming" that way. Two albums later, we got BC&SL, which is the opposite of a "commercial" album. So just because they went this way on DT12, it's not an indication of "who they're trying to cater to now" or where their sound is going. DT has always done something different with every album, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got something completely unexpected next time around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on March 25, 2014, 08:08:19 PM
Are we confusing commercial with accessible?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 25, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on March 25, 2014, 08:08:19 PM
Are we confusing commercial with accessible?

The difference being?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on March 25, 2014, 09:29:44 PM
Accessible applies much more to the songs being easier to listen, perhaps due to having characteristics that allude to the majority's taste (this majority meaning "almost everyone"); while commercial doesn't imply having those certain characteristics. It doesn't mean it lacks those traits either, but there could be that difference.

Although it was some posts ago and perhaps the issue was finished, I found it interesting and, well, for me the 12SS ranks this way

1. TROAE
2. TGP
3. Repentance
4. TSF
5. TDS

Quote from: KevShmev on March 25, 2014, 09:54:43 AM
Yep, I know a lot of fans aren't overly wild about This Dying Soul, myself included.  It is probably my least favorite 12-step song, the worst song from ToT, and would be in my bottom 15 DT songs ever.

Agreed. The only good thing about the song, for me, is the instrumental section on the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2014, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 25, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 25, 2014, 02:39:38 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM


Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
 

I&W and its three songs that were all played on MTV would like a word with you.

It really doesn't matter how commercial it is if it is good.

That. Commercial and good are not mutually exclusive goals, and DT's more accessible songs are often among my favourites anyway.
But the new album is not what I'd call commercial. It is relatively more accessible for DT, but when you put it into context, it's still far from most music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 25, 2014, 11:31:42 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on March 25, 2014, 05:52:08 PM
I don't mind DT shooting for more fans, and they've been very consistent their whole career with their music, but I think their songwriting really shines with their 10-15 minute (give or take) little epics, which I sorely missed this time around.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 26, 2014, 04:43:53 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Controversial opinions?

Well, the last album is the less progressive album of the band. They are going commercial and I don´t like that!
I miss Portnoy. Mangini is great but he is a robot. There´s no feeling in his playing.

Commercial? DT12?

LOL

What exactly differentiates a commercial song from a progressive song? Are they even diametrically opposed? Pull Me Under is a commercial, but isn't it still progressive?

DT12 songs, save for IT, are compact. They are relatively less wanky and the instrumentals are more purposive. Does that make the songs commercial?

And I surrender with all these "feelings' in drumming. Watch a live show, MM does his parts relatively the same. If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 26, 2014, 08:04:14 AM
Commercial? In the 70's, 80's maybe, nowdays just no LOL. Their songs are still longer than your average radio friendly song, even if they are short for DT standards(and not so much f you look at their entire catalog). Their song length and accessibility is on the same level as I&W, Awake, FII and Octavarium, so if "they are going commercial", they have been for really long time, and I don't think it's a bad thing as long as they don't compromise their music only to fulfil that purpose. And actually there are several ways to be commercial, and not all of them mean the same depending on the band you're talking about but that's a different topic altogether.

The feeling thing again is on the listener connection to the player, so it's entirely subjective. A discussion that goes nowhere.

Finally, there isn't a correlation between song length and progressiveness or quality, while some of the 10-15 minute songs are my favourites, other are just a huge miss, and so are some shorter tracks. Surrounded, to give a fan favourite example, is short but with a lot of changes, so is Behind The Veil or Surrender To Reason on the latest album. Whether you like it or not it's completely subjective, but I don't see a difference in the way all these songs where constructed, they are still 100% Dream Theater, with all that implies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 26, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 26, 2014, 04:43:53 AM

If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.

It is robotic in the way it sounds. MM tries to hit each drum at exactly the same velocity and distance which leaves out the little nuance dynamics that most drummers have.  It's also mostly because his drums sound like total crap compared to Portnoys.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 26, 2014, 10:22:09 AM
I reaaallly enjoyed yesterday's concert, but yeah, I have to agree with the above. Even in the softer sections of songs, every snare hit was a massive "BAM!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 26, 2014, 02:31:37 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 25, 2014, 06:42:59 PM

My point with Octavarium though was that just because they do things a certain way on one album that doesn't mean they're "Becoming" that way. Two albums later, we got BC&SL, which is the opposite of a "commercial" album. So just because they went this way on DT12, it's not an indication of "who they're trying to cater to now" or where their sound is going. DT has always done something different with every album, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got something completely unexpected next time around.

No I agree, that's what I was saying (or meant to say). It doesn't by all means mean DT is going commercial and accessible to the general public, they've always done stuff like this. but this album in itself just seems more straightforward, which hindered it a bit for me.

I definitely expect something different next time, though it's hard to tell. Like I said I have trust in DT and their songwriting capabilities, I'm sure we'll still be getting a good dosage of prog  ;D (hoping we won't get another BC&SL of course).

And to the above statements, I think accessible means more that the average music listener can get into it, while commercial means it can be very radio friendly. There can be a difference, however minute in terminology.

Like, for lack of a better example, Ministry of Lost Souls can be very accessible for somewhat getting into prog (take the dramatic theme, dynamic sound and melodies, minus the somewhat complex middle section if you wanna go that far), but it isn't very "radio friendly" (not unless you edited it down to hell).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 26, 2014, 02:49:32 PM
Well, we certainly won't be getting, "MY BROTHA!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 26, 2014, 03:21:13 PM
 :lol That is true
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 26, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 26, 2014, 08:29:06 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 26, 2014, 04:43:53 AM

If you also call his live drumming robotic, I don't know. Doesn't sound like Portnoy = robotic.

It is robotic in the way it sounds. MM tries to hit each drum at exactly the same velocity and distance which leaves out the little nuance dynamics that most drummers have.  It's also mostly because his drums sound like total crap compared to Portnoys.

so MM's fault is that he has balanced control of both his right and left hands, so that when he rolls, you won't know which note he is hitting with the left or the right hand? Drumming schools must have been teaching students the wrong way, then, because they have always taught the value of trying to achieve balance between your left and right hand. Do you mean that MP's drumming was not balanced, which  made his drumming dynamic?

Dynamics has a precise usage in music. I can not accept (again) that MM's drumming has no dynamics because his volumes do go up and down depending on what fits the music. Perfect example is Breaking All Illusions. I would give that as a classic drumming lesson in dynamics in drumming, the way the drums go down when JP does his bluesy solo, or when the drumming becomes softer during the verse compared to the chorus, or when the double pedals in the bass are louder when it is approaching the chorus. All of these elements are in DT12 also.  I really can not find any substance in the argument that there is NO dynamics in MM's drumming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on March 26, 2014, 07:04:11 PM
MM is only hitting each drum at the same velocity and at the same distance within a particular part. He is not playing every single part of every song that way at the same level. But if he's playing the intro to Nightmare, then yes, he's keeping consistency between the hits. He is adjusting velocity and distance depending upon the dynamics that the part calls for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on March 26, 2014, 11:50:06 PM
._. don't fight guys...

But yeah,  IMO  MM's drumming is boring... But that's propably because I'm not a drummer and don't understand all the cool stuff he is doing behind the drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 27, 2014, 10:57:51 AM
If you can hear dynamics in DT12 then all the power to you. To me every single snare and bass drum hit sounds the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 27, 2014, 11:10:43 AM
That's not his playing though.  It's how it was recorded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 27, 2014, 11:19:12 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 27, 2014, 11:10:43 AM
That's not his playing though.  It's how it was recorded.

Thats exactly what I was thinking...

In my eyes it comes down to this: MM is a more consistent hitter than MP but not to the degree in which the final product of DT12 suggests.  The production aspect definitely affected the sounds of the drums making them seem more "robotic" if you will.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on March 27, 2014, 11:28:58 AM
Honestly, the 3 times I saw DT with MM live I noticed more dynamics in his playing than on DT12 or ADTOE, but he still sounded a bit 'robotic', especially when he plays a ride or closed hi-hat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 27, 2014, 01:38:58 PM
When I said that there´s no feeling in MM´s drumming, I meant that (1) the playing sounds robotic and (2) the playing sounds artificial and too mathematical. In other words, it seems that MM is just following the song and not creating music. His playing is more predictable than Portnoys.
MM is a very rich and complex metronome. MP was more than a metronome.
That´s what I feel when I listen to his playing. Yes, it is kind of personal and subjective.
If it is due to the bad production, well, I don´t know…
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 27, 2014, 01:49:33 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 27, 2014, 01:38:58 PM
When I said that there´s no feeling in MM´s drumming, I meant that (1) the playing sounds robotic and (2) the playing sounds artificial and too mathematical. In other words, it seems that MM is just following the song and not creating music. His playing is more predictable than Portnoys.
MM is a very rich and complex metronome. MP was more than a metronome.
That´s what I feel when I listen to his playing. Yes, it is kind of personal and subjective.
If it is due to the bad production, well, I don´t know…

 It IS a matter of personal opinion, with which I happen to agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 27, 2014, 02:36:11 PM
To me, it seems like MP's playing accented the music, while MM's playing more so follows the music. You can tell throughout DT12 in certain parts that he basically plays the exact parts of the instruments, just on his drum kit, while MP might've more accented and supported the other instruments in another way (be it a counter-beat or what have you). I think the MM's true skill and potential got muddled in, yet again, a bad mixing of the drums.

And even though he let loose a bit in DT12, I can sort of tell MM is still playing it a bit safe. It's his first DT album where he is actually there with the recording and writing of the album, personally composing his drum parts. He wont have the same comfortableness that MP had (at least, not for a while). I think his drumming in DT12 (and in general) is great, but that's just my opinion on the argument saying it was more than just bad production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 27, 2014, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 25, 2014, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
And that's easily the worst part of that song.

Agreed, but only because it's so blatant. I love This Dying Soul.

Quote from: Nearmyth on March 27, 2014, 02:36:11 PM
To me, it seems like MP's playing accented the music, while MM's playing more so follows the music. You can tell throughout DT12 in certain parts that he basically plays the exact parts of the instruments, just on his drum kit, while MP might've more accented and supported the other instruments in another way (be it a counter-beat or what have you). I think the MM's true skill and potential got muddled in, yet again, a bad mixing of the drums.

And even though he let loose a bit in DT12, I can sort of tell MM is still playing it a bit safe. It's his first DT album where he is actually there with the recording and writing of the album, personally composing his drum parts. He wont have the same comfortableness that MP had (at least, not for a while). I think his drumming in DT12 (and in general) is great, but that's just my opinion on the argument saying it was more than just bad production.

MP did his own thing with the drums which made his sound unique. MM follows the other instruments like you said, and is sort of keeping the beat, but to a much more advanced degree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 27, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 25, 2014, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
And that's easily the worst part of that song.
The unison at the end would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 27, 2014, 03:24:36 PM
Quote from: ? on March 27, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 25, 2014, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
And that's easily the worst part of that song.
The unison at the end would like to have a word with you.

Oh come on, that's some wanky goodness right there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on March 27, 2014, 04:49:39 PM
The unison is perhaps one of the only two good parts in the song.


I believe the whole "MP has feeling, MM doesn't" discussion is based solely on how MP improvises a lot more, making him more showy most of the time, while MM, as it has been said, is much more of an orchestral drummer, providing accentuation to other instruments to go along with the song. He studies what the other members are doing with more depth, which allows him to harmonize and carry the beat more faithfully to the band's purpose, and that, along with his how absolutely precise he is, makes him sound "robotic". He's very analytical as a musician and that has added a whole different dimension to DT's musical focus.

While MP took sort of a leading role and there was a lot more exhibition coming from the band in the last albums with him (especially SC, I think), MM's purpose is to understand the other member's intentions and be some sort of link between them while still doing his own thing, and I believe that is what makes DT12 be a lot more concise. Either way, I believe the real way to judge whether MM has "feeling" or not would be listening to him play live, since his studio behavior is more to make an organized, fitting piece, and not that of an entertainer, if you will, which is the desired behavior live. Put of what I have seen from videos and from when I saw them, heck, the guy has all the feeling that there is to be had, even with him trying by all means to be as faithful to the original versions of the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 27, 2014, 06:18:36 PM
I think if Mangini decided to just play a drum solo, record it, and have the band write a song with the drum solo as the drum part, this discussion about Mangini having no feeling would be over. Plus it would be totally badass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on March 27, 2014, 06:35:43 PM
Not to break the trend of this thread but I believe this is the place for this.
The Enemy Inside has gone from least favorite to best song of the album for me.
I have no clue of how to explain this, at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 27, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 27, 2014, 06:18:36 PM
I think if Mangini decided to just play a drum solo, record it, and have the band write a song with the drum solo as the drum part, this discussion about Mangini having no feeling would be over. Plus it would be totally badass.

Except that his drum solos usually have zero groove and aren't in the least bit musical. There, I said it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 27, 2014, 07:51:35 PM
Systematic Chaos might be one my top 5 albums ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 27, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
My controversial opinion about DT is very simple.  There are too many classic pieces of music that they should have been playing live in the last 5 years.  I know that they have a huge amount of songs and that is difficult to select.  But their current set list is not phenomenal to me.  I saw them 4 times in the last 5 years and they always put a great show but I'm always unhappy about their set list.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on March 27, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 27, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 27, 2014, 06:18:36 PM
I think if Mangini decided to just play a drum solo, record it, and have the band write a song with the drum solo as the drum part, this discussion about Mangini having no feeling would be over. Plus it would be totally badass.

Except that his drum solos usually have zero groove and aren't in the least bit musical. There, I said it.

Almost every drum solo isn't musical or even interesting. Every one I've heard from any drummer, regardless of who they are, goes on three times as long as it should.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on March 27, 2014, 10:39:07 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on March 27, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 27, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 27, 2014, 06:18:36 PM
I think if Mangini decided to just play a drum solo, record it, and have the band write a song with the drum solo as the drum part, this discussion about Mangini having no feeling would be over. Plus it would be totally badass.

Except that his drum solos usually have zero groove and aren't in the least bit musical. There, I said it.

Almost every drum solo isn't musical or even interesting. Every one I've heard from any drummer, regardless of who they are, goes on three times as long as it should.
I play the drums and even I have to agree with this. Drum solos are just plain boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 27, 2014, 10:45:44 PM
Quote from: Tom Bombadil on March 27, 2014, 10:39:07 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on March 27, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 27, 2014, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lucien on March 27, 2014, 06:18:36 PM
I think if Mangini decided to just play a drum solo, record it, and have the band write a song with the drum solo as the drum part, this discussion about Mangini having no feeling would be over. Plus it would be totally badass.

Except that his drum solos usually have zero groove and aren't in the least bit musical. There, I said it.

Almost every drum solo isn't musical or even interesting. Every one I've heard from any drummer, regardless of who they are, goes on three times as long as it should.
I play the drums and even I have to agree with this. Drum solos are just plain boring.

I'm not even a drummer....and I can practically recite *note for note* the YYZ drum solo from Exit...Stage Left.     IMO, it is extremely musical, and that version is the DEFINITIVE version of YYZ.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 27, 2014, 10:49:09 PM
Yeah, Peart is the only rock drummer whose solo didn't bore me to tears (although I am bored with them now).  Well okay, Carl Palmer, too.  But aside from those two, every solo I've ever seen by a drummer has been a snoozer.  I think Portnoy even admitted several times that he wasn't much a drum soloist, which is why he hardly ever did them.  Mangini's is probably technically awesome, but it does nada for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 27, 2014, 10:56:13 PM
I'm actually sad that MP didn't do more solos.    He gave them up very early...but I put his LIT solo along side the aforementioned Peart and Palmer solos as the funnest solos I've ever heard in my whole life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 27, 2014, 10:59:25 PM
Really?  That was smack dab in the middle of my "everything DT does is totally awesome" phase, but long before my "not being a fan of Mike Portnoy the man" phase :lol, and even then I didn't think much of it.  To each their own. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 27, 2014, 11:02:08 PM
And I'm not necessarily a DT or MP "drum solo fanboy"....I thought the drum solo on OIALT was completely disappointing.  (really...ALL of OIALT was disappointing, but that's another discussion)    But I could listen to the solo from the Live in Tokyo video on an endless loop.   I think it's brilliant, and I'm just glad MP was captured in his prime before he stopped doing solos. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 27, 2014, 11:06:05 PM
I guess.  I hate that it was in the middle of that awesome version of Ytse Jam.  It took some work and careful editing, but I managed to edit the song to eliminate the drum solo (except the ditty at the end that is in the original song anyway) and have a perfect live Ytse Jam. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 27, 2014, 11:11:36 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 27, 2014, 11:06:05 PM
I guess.  I hate that it was in the middle of that awesome version of Ytse Jam.  It took some work and careful editing, but I managed to edit the song to eliminate the drum solo (except the ditty at the end that is in the original song anyway) and have a perfect live Ytse Jam. :metal

(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/bodysnatchers_zpsa73b5c54.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on March 27, 2014, 11:14:28 PM
I'm on a roll posting about Van Halen at the moment but when it comes to drum solos there's only one I remember (or enjoyed a great deal) and that was Alex Van Halen's - neck brace and all - on the VH 3 tour.    Aside from Cherone prancing around like a pansy it was a great gig all round but - I feel weird even saying this - the drum solo was the highlight of the night.   He had brass piped in with a calypso theme and he nailed it and got a 1-2 minute standing ovation from the crowd.

Looks like I need to revisit Live In Tokyo , although I think I only have it on VHS  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 27, 2014, 11:29:38 PM
I'm just still in shock.   I had to do a DVD rip to get a CD version of that incredible (and IMO "definitive") version of Ytse Jam.   That, to me, is tied with ESL's YYZ as the most incredible "live instrumental w/drum solo song" in rock history.    It even destroys The Mule from Made In Japan.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on March 27, 2014, 11:29:49 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 27, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
My controversial opinion about DT is very simple.  There are too many classic pieces of music that they should have been playing live in the last 5 years.  I know that they have a huge amount of songs and that is difficult to select.  But their current set list is not phenomenal to me.  I saw them 4 times in the last 5 years and they always put a great show but I'm always unhappy about their set list.

I reckon DT would be close enough to the hardest band to work out a set list for - I don't envy that task.  Compared to say classic bands like Van Halen or KISS (which didn't vary hugely from album to album with most lineups) where they could usually put together a spread of songs that would keep 90% of people happy over the course of a couple of hours,  DT...........well you only need to read this forum.  Because DT have covered so much ground (and appeal to people with prog and hard rock/metal backgrounds.....many of which only have DT in common but otherwise don't like the other style) plenty of us worship one era and really struggle with another.

What would you like to hear them play?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on March 28, 2014, 05:31:20 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 27, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
My controversial opinion about DT is very simple.  There are too many classic pieces of music that they should have been playing live in the last 5 years.  I know that they have a huge amount of songs and that is difficult to select.  But their current set list is not phenomenal to me.  I saw them 4 times in the last 5 years and they always put a great show but I'm always unhappy about their set list.
I tend to agree. I've seen DT live 3 times now and have always loved the experience, but each time I've come away disappointed by the setlists. I wouldn't say there are songs that they have to play almost every live show ever - that would get very stale for the band and fans who see them regularly, I just think I've been a bit unlucky that I seem to have missed out a lot of my favourite tracks. It's all personal opinions though of course and I've seen almost universal praise for this current setlist, sadly I'm just not a fan. Same goes for Luna Park and the upcoming Boston show DVD - I think the sets on DT's other live albums are all better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 05:45:42 AM
They hardly play something from Black Clouds. Is it some kind of "forbidden album"?
For me, that is their best album!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Stray Seed on March 28, 2014, 05:48:35 AM
(https://i58.tinypic.com/358qq82.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 28, 2014, 05:56:27 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 05:45:42 AM
They hardly play something from Black Clouds. Is it some kind of "forbidden album"?
For me, that is their best album!

Given that they played The Shattered Fortress, obviously not! Keep in mind they're playing nothing at all from Images and Words, Six Degrees, Octavarium, Train of Thought, or Systematic Chaos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on March 28, 2014, 07:12:55 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 05:45:42 AM
They hardly play something from Black Clouds. Is it some kind of "forbidden album"?
For me, that is their best album!

They played TCOT last year. 2009 was it's touring. And also considering that they played TSF from BC&SL (which wasn't ever played live), they sure do play that beautiful album ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 07:16:28 AM
Screw the haters. I thought the set list was one of the best parts about this year's concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 07:27:15 AM
 I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 28, 2014, 07:30:25 AM
Their current setlist is the weakest setlist I've seen from them in a headlining show imo.
Only one song from my top 20, several songs from my bottom 20, nothing from my favourite DT album at all, and barely half of the setlist would probably even make my top 50. The saving grace is the chunk of SFAM, and ToT. If not for those, I wouldn't even question not going to see that show.

I thought last tour's setlist was great, but this tour's setlist is a total head scratcher to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jmasterx on March 28, 2014, 07:48:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 28, 2014, 07:30:25 AM
Their current setlist is the weakest setlist I've seen from them in a headlining show imo.
Only one song from my top 20, several songs from my bottom 20, nothing from my favourite DT album at all, and barely half of the setlist would probably even make my top 50. The saving grace is the chunk of SFAM, and ToT. If not for those, I wouldn't even question not going to see that show.

I thought last tour's setlist was great, but this tour's setlist is a total head scratcher to me.

You've pretty much word for word written how I feel.

Personally, if I have to hear so many songs from Awake, I want to hear voices. Awake is my next to least favorite album. My least is FFI. I enjoyed the DT12 songs, especially IT. Really would have liked some material from SDOIT and I&W. Would have gladly swapped some awake songs to hear the entire ACOS, but that was released in 95' ... maybe they will play it on the next NA Leg if there is one.

My other controversial opinion is, DT's shows are too loud. During LSOAD, I thought they keyboard part (the last 5 notes of the section) were completely out of tune, but this is because my hearing was damaged from it being too loud. I heard it back on YouTube and it sounded much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2014, 08:44:58 AM
The one and possibly only time I'll ever get to see Space Dye Vest , Scarred and Finally Free live in one show and I cannot go, due to more important obligations.

I hope they keep on of those 3 on the 2nd US leg.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on March 28, 2014, 09:28:32 AM
I think the setlist is brilliant. Although I'd certainly swap OTBOA and BAI with some other songs from I&W or 6DOIT. Those 2 songs have been played very much in the last tour. Hope they'll make the coolest changes for the next European tour, like putting 8VM in the setlist too ;D ;D I'm burning with excitement for their Turkey concert. It'll be my first ever!

Oh and they are yet to play TBP, STR and BTV too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 28, 2014, 09:40:13 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 07:27:15 AM
I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.

It was fun to check out the 'net back then and see how different set lists were from show to show, for sure, but on the flip side, certain cities always got the best surprises (NY, Chicago, etc.), and imagine a rarity being pulled out, but not played in your city.  That would suck.  And it used to happen all the time.  Personally, as a huge fan of Side 2 of Awake, I don't have to worry that any of those songs suddenly will be yanked from the set list when I see them next weekend.  That is a good thing. :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on March 28, 2014, 09:42:15 AM
You won't be disappointed.  They crushed all the Awake songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 10:27:49 AM
More controversial opinions!
I don't understand why John Myung's bass lines are so low in DT's recordings.
Why they seem to turn everything else up till the bass disappears?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 28, 2014, 11:04:56 AM
I like how DT12 sounds, more and more every time I give it a spin. The guitar is huge and crisp, the bass is more prominent than on the majority of DT albums, Jordan's patches are warm and of high quality, James sounds exceptional (vocal effects included), miles better than on ADTOE and the drums (the most controversial subject)...are big, huge, fat, punchy, in-your-face and manly. Just listened to IT and the fat and warm toms of MM right before the keyboard solo @ the 14 min mark busted my guts so hard, I had to rewind it a dozen times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 28, 2014, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 07:16:28 AM
Screw the haters. I thought the set list was one of the best parts about this year's concert.

I agree. I'm really actually disappointed that I can't see them this tour even though I don't really care for DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 07:27:15 AM
I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.

Yeah, but you can also look at it from a different point of view. I mean, sure, it's interesting when the setlist is a complete surprise, but what if it's not a pleasant one. What if they happen to play a bunch of songs you don't really care for, and then you check the city they played right before yours and it's like, "What? They got Metropolis, The Glass Prison and ITPOE Pt1 and I got Burning My Soul, The Great Debate and New Millennium?" (or whatever songs you happen to not like as much). I'd feel kind of cheated.

This year's setlist has been so perfect, that I was hoping they wouldn't change a single thing about it for the American leg, and thankfully they didn't. And JP had a point. With the current setlist, it really feels like everything is very properly placed and there's a journey to it.
As much thought as MP put into WHICH songs they played, sometimes, a setlist came off as just a bunch of songs, with no thought behind the flow of it. LAB is the perfect example of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

That being said, I'd like them for the next tour to come up with some compromise between a well constructed setlist and have some surprises at their sleeves. I always thought it would be better if they came up with a setlist A and B or if they constructed them with similar songs on the same spots. Like a Ballad section with four ballad to choose from, Lines in the Sand switching with Trial of Tears, etc. Kind of like they did last tour. It's actually harder than it looks, since they don't have undisputed fan favourites and most importantly, their songs are just too darn long. Playing an epic means rejecting two to four songs, playing a 15 minute song is kind of the same, etc. It's really hard to come up with something that will leave everyone satisfied. Hell, I find myself very conflicted when I create playlists off DT songs, I can't imagine if I had to think of a setlist.

On a side note, I found that DT12 sounds a lot better with the volume on mid level than if you crank it up. In the mid range I can hear everything properly, if I crank it the guitars take over everything, I don't know how that works. :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 28, 2014, 04:46:51 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 10:27:49 AM
More controversial opinions!
I don't understand why John Myung's bass lines are so low in DT's recordings.
Why they seem to turn everything else up till the bass disappears?

That's not controversial. Everyone feels that way. EVERYONE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 04:50:05 PM
Regarding the "risk" of playing half of Awake and SFAM: the risk was zero. Those two albums regularly show up in the top 5 of album polls. Blob hates them, but then again he's listening to the albums upside down. That just *has* to influence perception.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

Yes, but in this case, if you feel that strongly about it, at least you can always not buy the ticket. You don't have to worry, going into it, about whether you'll hear something you will or won't like. And even if there's something you're not a big fan of, at least you'll be ready for it.

Last time around, even though they had Setlist A and Setlist B, there were some songs on both setlists that I wasn't too crazy about. So I started listening to them a bit more, and I actually grew to appreciate them a lot more, and like them quite a bit. And now, These Walls and Caught In A Web are among my favorites. Still not crazy about the Great Debate. But I actually thought they would play it last time around (instead of introducing Setlist C as they did) and at least I mentally prepared myself for hearing it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on March 28, 2014, 05:06:35 PM
On the setlist thing: I just saw DT last night in upper darby PA (second show, first I've seen on the new tour!!), and even though I knew most of the setlist beforehand I must say that it's pretty sick.

The songs flow extremely well with each other, as if it was all one big album. The Awake portion was fantastic, and Illumination Theory is absolutely KILLER live, at least more so than I thought it would be.

Like what someone said earlier, I never thought I would get to see Space Dye Vest, Scarred, AND Finally Free in one night. Those, along with Breaking All Illusions and IT, are all in my top 20, so I was pretty stoked. For someone who might not like Awake or SFAM all that much I could see why there would be a problem with the set, but I think it put on a really great show nevertheless  ::)

My enthusiasm might just be because this is only the second time I've seen DT, the last time being the ADTOE tour. But in comparison, I think that the Along For The Ride tour has a much better setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 05:16:48 PM
Well, they don't play TDOE too often either (Do they?) It being my second favorite DT song, and the one song that got me into the band in the first place, I feel quite blessed to have had the pleasure of seeing it played live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 28, 2014, 05:37:40 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 05:16:48 PM
Well, they don't play TDOE too often either (Do they?) It being my second favorite DT song, and the one song that got me into the band in the first place, I feel quite blessed to have had the pleasure of seeing it played live.

Not sure how often it was actually played, but it was played in 2009/2010 at least a few times. I enjoyed seeing it, but I would have rather had Beyond This Life or Home. After all, the Awake anniversary has 38+ minutes devoted to it, whereas the SFAM set only has 28+ minutes devoted to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 05:44:44 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on March 28, 2014, 05:37:40 PM
Not sure how often it was actually played, but it was played in 2009/2010 at least a few times. I enjoyed seeing it, but I would have rather had Beyond This Life or Home. After all, the Awake anniversary has 38+ minutes devoted to it, whereas the SFAM set only has 28+ minutes devoted to it.

Yeah, but your'e talking about an era where the playlists changed constantly, right? Seeing it live back then would've been an extremely lucky occurrence, without actually following the band.

Quality over quantity though, if you ask me. I'd prefer DTOE over any song on the album, Strange Deja-Vu being a close secong along with Overture, and hey, we got to hear those as well!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

Yes, but in this case, if you feel that strongly about it, at least you can always not buy the ticket. You don't have to worry, going into it, about whether you'll hear something you will or won't like. And even if there's something you're not a big fan of, at least you'll be ready for it.

Last time around, even though they had Setlist A and Setlist B, there were some songs on both setlists that I wasn't too crazy about. So I started listening to them a bit more, and I actually grew to appreciate them a lot more, and like them quite a bit. And now, These Walls and Caught In A Web are among my favorites. Still not crazy about the Great Debate. But I actually thought they would play it last time around (instead of introducing Setlist C as they did) and at least I mentally prepared myself for hearing it.
Well, you counterargumented yourself there, that's exactly my point! :lol With two or three setlists you still know the odds and it gives you time to prepare for it, but you don't know exactly so you still have room for surprises. My second point it's that a lot of albums are completely left aside, leaving only 3 that they do justice and 2 they barely mention, so if you're not a big fan of one of those albums the show won't be that great. You can endure one song you don't like, and album is more to ask. Like I said, for me this setlist is great, Awake is my favourite album, and Scenes is the second of my Tier 2, the first being the newest so for me this is great, but I can understand people don't liking it that much. And Blob isn't the only one not that crazy about Awake, it is among the universally praised, but it has it's fair share of people not so crazy about it. Kind of like Six Degrees. The thing that surprised me the most is the complete absence of Images & Words, it must be the first time that album dissapears completely from the setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 28, 2014, 08:23:27 PM
Indeed, the absence of I&W surprised me as well. I imagine that if their still going for songs that haven't been played recently, when it returns it will be in the form of Take the Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 07:46:00 PM
Well, you counterargumented yourself there, that's exactly my point! :lol With two or three setlists you still know the odds and it gives you time to prepare for it, but you don't know exactly so you still have room for surprises. My second point it's that a lot of albums are completely left aside, leaving only 3 that they do justice and 2 they barely mention, so if you're not a big fan of one of those albums the show won't be that great. You can endure one song you don't like, and album is more to ask. Like I said, for me this setlist is great, Awake is my favourite album, and Scenes is the second of my Tier 2, the first being the newest so for me this is great, but I can understand people don't liking it that much. And Blob isn't the only one not that crazy about Awake, it is among the universally praised, but it has it's fair share of people not so crazy about it. Kind of like Six Degrees. The thing that surprised me the most is the complete absence of Images & Words, it must be the first time that album dissapears completely from the setlist.

Yeah, but I'm gonna be a selfish bastard and say that because I like everything on the setlist, I see no problem with them keeping it the same.  :P

And considering how good the production is, and how tight it is, and how great the performances were, even the songs that I wasn't totally looking forward to (namely BAI because I heard it last time and LSOAD because I don't think there's anything too remarkable about it) were still very enjoyable. If anything, I could see this kind of a concert changing people's minds about some of those songs, just because now they have a fantastic association with this awesome show.

And yes, a lot of the albums were left out, including the holy grail that is Images and Words, but you know, I'm sure next time SFAM and Awake will be left out, and they might show more attention to albums like TOT or 8VM. I can only hope that in 2017, they'll do a 10 year anniversary of Systematic Chaos and play half of that album.  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 09:25:32 PM
Yeah, but I'm gonna be a selfish bastard and say that because I like everything on the setlist, I see no problem with them keeping it the same.  :P
I almost said that to you, but it's better you said it yourself :P.

And 2017 is also FII 20th, so I'm actually hoping for those songs to come out :biggrin:.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 28, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
I saw their last 4 shows in Montreal and here the greats songs they never played.

Octavarium, About to crash, Another day, Lines in the sand, Hell's kitchen, The spirit carries on.  The count of Toscany is another favorite along with songs from SC but they played TCOT while touring BC&SL.  I'm disapointed basically to not have seen them played Octavarium and Lines in the sand especially.  Bigger picture and This is the life are 2 great ballads I enjoy as well.

But I'm not a hater.  It's just that nothing of that in the last 5 years in 4 shows covering the last 3 albums.  And in my opinion, the Awake part of the show is weak.  But I understand that they want to celebrate the 20th anniversary release of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on March 28, 2014, 09:52:04 PM
I'd rather in 2017 they do a 20th for FII and 15th for SDOIT. It wouldn't make much sense to do a 10th for an album that is especially unpopular with the fans. :P That and SC is my personal least favourite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2014, 10:06:47 PM
Simple Solution....Don't Look At The Setlists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 28, 2014, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 07:27:15 AM
I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.

Yeah, but you can also look at it from a different point of view. I mean, sure, it's interesting when the setlist is a complete surprise, but what if it's not a pleasant one. What if they happen to play a bunch of songs you don't really care for, and then you check the city they played right before yours and it's like, "What? They got Metropolis, The Glass Prison and ITPOE Pt1 and I got Burning My Soul, The Great Debate and New Millennium?" (or whatever songs you happen to not like as much). I'd feel kind of cheated.

And on the flip side, if you don't like the one set list, too bad. The first time they came here in 2007, we got a killer setlist, because they catered to the fact it was the first time, and there were many pleasant surprises in there. This tour, I know there's no chance of that.

Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 04:50:05 PM
Regarding the "risk" of playing half of Awake and SFAM: the risk was zero. Those two albums regularly show up in the top 5 of album polls. Blob hates them, but then again he's listening to the albums upside down. That just *has* to influence perception.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. I don't like Awake, but SFAM is my #2. One album.
And they're only half the setlist, and the other half of the setlist has 1 song from my top 4 DT albums, and only one song I love. For a band like DT with such a high percentage of songs I love, I don't even know how that's possible. :lol It's not a very balanced setlist imo, with a lot of omissions.

I think having a few basic setlists with some minor variations like last tour was a perfect middle ground. You could still have everything running smoothly, but still have some options there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 28, 2014, 11:07:58 PM
I can kind of see the 'one sidedness' of the current setlist, but like we've discussed fairly extensively, it's a game DT can never win, the closest they'll get is seeing that a majority of people are satisfied after the gig and whether the set gets a certain amount of praise from the fans. Which is clearly the case with this one or they might have changed it by now.

Personally, I think a lot of thought was put into this setlist (obviously a lot of thought was put into the shows production) but echoing whats been said here, the songs really do flow into each other smoothly. Also, regarding songs that might not be favourites for individuals. This is an experience that I find quite consistent with live shows, I remember specifically seeing Chris Cornell, (he was opening for another band that I'm almost ashamed to mention :P) they played a bunch of Soundgarden and Audioslave songs which everyone went nuts over, but he also played a very large chunk of songs from his more recent solo work, and even though I'd never heard any of these songs before, I really enjoyed it. To this day I can't even remember what the songs were but just being there, in the energy, experiencing music live, it has a different effect on your perception. You're less analytical about it and you just experience the groove and feel of the song so to speak.

I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 29, 2014, 12:16:11 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 28, 2014, 11:07:58 PM
I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.

I definitely agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on March 29, 2014, 06:40:06 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 29, 2014, 12:16:11 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 28, 2014, 11:07:58 PM
I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.

I definitely agree with this.

Exactly. Happened to me with TSF and LSOAD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jamesman42 on March 29, 2014, 10:46:05 AM
I hate Forsaken on the album, but live it was amazing. Crazy how that works.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?


No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

Quote from: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?


No.

Tell us more, oh ambassador of the DT fandom. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 29, 2014, 11:07:38 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

It quite obviously improved over what the songwriting had been on the last few albums with Portnoy, and I think the popularity of the last two albums says that quite clearly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on March 29, 2014, 11:07:55 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 11:37:36 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 29, 2014, 11:07:55 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.

You've been praising SC on every page of this thread. We get it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 12:31:53 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on March 29, 2014, 11:07:55 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.

I love Forsaken too, the best track on the album for me without doubt. Interesting how it sounds rather like Steven Wilson and Opeth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 11:02:37 AM
Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

From critics, yes. From the hardcore fanbase (basically the forum), I'd say its somewhat divided, with perhaps an inclination towards the positive. It certainly isn't universally regarded positively in the same way albums like I&W, SFAM, and SDOIT are, and I guess that's what I was getting at, though I acknowledge there are pretty good amount of people having praised DT12 now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 29, 2014, 01:39:35 PM
The initial reaction to DT12 was overwhelmingly positive everywhere. I remember being awestruck by the amount of praise and appreciation it received on MP's forums. I was somewhat surprised later on to see so many negative opinions pop up on DTF. It's a top 3 album for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 01:46:49 PM
 :facepalm: :lol I should probably have taken a closer look at that DT Album Rankings thread a while back. Now that I look at it, DT12's reception here is pretty positive. It falls in the top 6 overall for me, which is still pretty good even though that puts it at around the middle out of all DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 29, 2014, 02:20:55 PM
Huh. I always thought it was divided as well. That might be my bias in that I actually am not a big fan of DT12. Maybe in actuality, I'm in a minority.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 29, 2014, 02:22:36 PM
This is totally off topic, but, being a recent convert to Homestuck, I finally know what your sig is, Implode. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 29, 2014, 02:49:45 PM
 :tup

After seeing the poll here, I guess that's true. I would lower my vote now though; I wonder if others would do the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 29, 2014, 02:53:32 PM
I thought ADTOE received more universal love upon its release than DT12, but I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YtseJamittaja on March 29, 2014, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: ? on March 29, 2014, 02:53:32 PM
I thought ADTOE received more universal love upon its release than DT12, but I may be wrong.

Should be vice versa.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on March 29, 2014, 03:24:39 PM
I unno, I thought both were pretty split here in terms of support.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
After watching the Take Away My Pain jam/documentary again, I have to say Mangini sounds completely amazing on it. I'm kind of afraid he's not going to sound this good with DT ever again since both his album and his live sound has been pretty underwhelming so far imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chriss_Myazz on March 29, 2014, 04:35:08 PM
Although John Myung fits in DT musically, I just don't like the guy.
I met him and unlike the other members he didn't give me the light of day for some obscure reason.
Maybe that's just him, hence my opinion.
That controversial enough?  :xbones
CM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: Chriss_Myazz on March 29, 2014, 04:35:08 PM
Although John Myung fits in DT musically, I just don't like the guy.
I met him and unlike the other members he didn't give me the light of day for some obscure reason.
Maybe that's just him, hence my opinion.
That controversial enough?  :xbones
CM

Depending on how long you've been a fan, you should gauge pretty well the personality of a lot of the bandmates by now. JM is generally seen as quiet and reserved, hence the constant comments on YouTube stating "lyrics by John Myung" on a video of a DT instrumental.

And I kinda doubt that under a pretty limited amount of time you can make a judgement like that based on his character. It's like a Neil Peart thing going on it might seem. He might just be a pretty reserved guy who isn't all that comfortable meeting with people he's never met before. Can't really blame him if that's the case.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on March 29, 2014, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
After watching the Take Away My Pain jam/documentary again, I have to say Mangini sounds completely amazing on it. I'm kind of afraid he's not going to sound this good with DT ever again since both his album and his live sound has been pretty underwhelming so far imo.

That's because on the documentary he doesn't play on his own kit :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on March 29, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
This probably isn't that controversial, but I think DT12 *had potential* but the mix absolutely ruined it. Everything sounds 1 dimensional. I play any track from DT12, then I play any track from SDOIT or earlier, and the contrast is just alarming. I'm no audiophile, I've got pretty shitty ears, and I've never taken a formal class in music theory, but it just sounds *bad*. The only word that I've been able to come up with that I think describes the way it sounds to me is: staticky.

I just went though and sampled just small ~5 second pieces from various albums, and from I can tell everything through Train of Thought sounds pretty clear to me, no static. Octavarium generally sounds good, but I definitely start to notice a drop in sound quality. After Octavarium all of the albums just sound muffled and staticky to me, and it seems to get worse on each progressive album with DT12 being the absolute worst.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 29, 2014, 10:32:16 PM
DT12 has the sad distinction that when I put my Google Music account on shuffle and it gets to a DT12 song, I'm scrambling to pull down the volume as fast as I can with the mouse because it's so crazy loud and compressed when compared to the other music I have.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 29, 2014, 11:17:52 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
After watching the Take Away My Pain jam/documentary again, I have to say Mangini sounds completely amazing on it. I'm kind of afraid he's not going to sound this good with DT ever again since both his album and his live sound has been pretty underwhelming so far imo.
Take This For The Pain :P And I agree on the drum sound, not his playing.

As for the reception, I read the whole "Initial Impressions" and at least on the poll, if I remember correctly 70-80% or more voted "Instant Classic/Very Strong", which is a damn good reception I think. And I found a pattern, not universal but pretty common: those who praised ADTOE didn't like DT12 and viceversa. Which sort of makes sense as they are fairly different on their approach.

And I wouldn't say that the songwriting improved without Portnoy, I'd rather say it improved since he left the band. Subtle, but very different. And only compared to the last albums with him, overall I wouldn't say that, MP wrote his fair share of great songs, and I actually think the improvement is more due to JP being "back in the game" that because of Portnoy's abscence. The improvement I see because of MP leaving is James being able to record his vocals on his own, but that's a different thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 12:43:15 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

I actually think ADTOE and DT12 are at best on par with the couple of albums before, and at the bottom of DT's discography. I think they lost a lot of the energy and accessibility without MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on March 30, 2014, 01:10:38 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 12:43:15 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

I actually think ADTOE and DT12 are at best on par with the couple of albums before, and at the bottom of DT's discography. I think they lost a lot of the energy and accessibility without MP.

I won't comment on the "energy" (not sure about that) but for me it's the exact opposite -  I think they are both significantly better albums than the two before , near the top of my list and I'd say they're both far more accesible ......if we define that as being able to win over the general public /new fans  , especially DT12.

I'm pretty sure I could get away with playing a number of tracks off DT12 and avoid a negative response from visitors/non-fans but would definitely get the "What is that crap?" look if I played SC or BCSL.   Fair slabs of those albums- mostly SC-  get the same response from me actually :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 30, 2014, 01:22:56 AM
Quote from: Zook on March 27, 2014, 03:24:36 PM
Quote from: ? on March 27, 2014, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on March 25, 2014, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Zook on January 04, 2014, 09:44:32 AM
The only part that sounds like Metallica on Train of Thought is the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
And that's easily the worst part of that song.
The unison at the end would like to have a word with you.

Oh come on, that's some wanky goodness right there.
I was referring to the riffs and the lame vocal melodies. But yes, the unison is definitely killer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 02:05:46 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on March 30, 2014, 01:10:38 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 12:43:15 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

I actually think ADTOE and DT12 are at best on par with the couple of albums before, and at the bottom of DT's discography. I think they lost a lot of the energy and accessibility without MP.

I won't comment on the "energy" (not sure about that) but for me it's the exact opposite -  I think they are both significantly better albums than the two before , near the top of my list and I'd say they're both far more accesible ......if we define that as being able to win over the general public /new fans  , especially DT12.

I'm pretty sure I could get away with playing a number of tracks off DT12 and avoid a negative response from visitors/non-fans but would definitely get the "What is that crap?" look if I played SC or BCSL.   Fair slabs of those albums- mostly SC-  get the same response from me actually :)

That wholly depends on who you're showing it to. I don't know in real life who enjoys the last two albums, although many of them didn't like the ones prior either. But generally SC and to a lesser degree BCASL get the better reaction in my experience. It really depends on the crowd.
But despite the shorter song lengths, I don't find DT12 to be any more accessible. It's just more concise prog to me. I usually love the shorter DT stuff, but the shorter songs on DT12 do nothing for me, aside from the more straightforward TEI.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on March 30, 2014, 02:38:32 AM
Well we have one thing in common there Blob - it seems we both rate TEI higher than most  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 30, 2014, 03:10:47 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 10:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:
I think the decline of Dream Theater is often overstated by self-loathing fans - Black Clouds is the closest to a blip in the 2000s, and it's still a perfectly serviceable album - but Dramatic Turn and especially Dream Theater are absolutely something else. DT12 is their strongest songwriting ever. It's discipline and indulgence, married so neatly that I'm shocked I ever thought they were mutually exclusive. Where all DT albums to an extent, and particularly the last few, have tended to have "the heavy one," "the soft one," "the commercial one," "the technical one," the songs on DT12 dip in and out of each column effortlessly - seriously, they make it sound easy! So much substance, packed in so tightly. Constantly impressive, but always melodic, it's an utter gem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 04:25:54 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on March 30, 2014, 02:38:32 AM
Well we have one thing in common there Blob - it seems we both rate TEI higher than most  ;D

A small victory for our common ground! :lol I'll take it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nofire on March 30, 2014, 04:33:29 AM
I'm not a big fan of the rotating setlists. Sure, I get that it's nice if you see them multiple times on a tour, but my guess would be that most people just see one show near their hometown, and then I'd much rather have a consistent and well-planned show which they fine tune throughout the tour. As someone mentioned above, if I found out that the city before me got TGP, LTL and BTL, while my city got UAGM, WIMH/TTTSTA and NM, I would be very disappointed, even if I looked at all the setlists after I went to the show. I'm also not a huge fan of anniversaries within the show, since I think the ultimate setlist can't be created if you dedicate a huge chunk of it to one or two albums. For this tour, it was fine, since I hadn't heard the majority of the anniversary songs live before (only SDV), but I'm not a big fan of the principle of it.

All that being said, this current setlist is absolutely amazing. Easily the best I've seen them do (saw them previously on the SC and ADTOE tours).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 30, 2014, 04:41:15 AM
If you are a fan that sees them multiple time you love the rotating list.  I for one miss it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 30, 2014, 05:05:51 AM
Quote from: Nofire on March 30, 2014, 04:33:29 AM
I'm not a big fan of the rotating setlists. Sure, I get that it's nice if you see them multiple times on a tour, but my guess would be that most people just see one show near their hometown, and then I'd much rather have a consistent and well-planned show which they fine tune throughout the tour. As someone mentioned above, if I found out that the city before me got TGP, LTL and BTL, while my city got UAGM, WIMH/TTTSTA and NM, I would be very disappointed, even if I looked at all the setlists after I went to the show. I'm also not a huge fan of anniversaries within the show, since I think the ultimate setlist can't be created if you dedicate a huge chunk of it to one or two albums. For this tour, it was fine, since I hadn't heard the majority of the anniversary songs live before (only SDV), but I'm not a big fan of the principle of it.
I soooooort of agree with both of these, but not entirely with either. I think this tour's massively overdone the anniversaries - fine for a single show, it's special if it's a single show, but every night it just becomes ballast. The Awake section was huge, overdone. Space-Dye Vest alone would have been a hell of an anniversary present - play that every night, with a rotating lead-in.

Frankly, I'm not sure why an anniversary's a big deal. If you're celebrating anniversary years, every year's an anniversary year for every album. 20th Anniversary World Tour's different, because that's the band staying together through trials and tribulations. Awake hasn't had any, it was never going to stop existing, I don't really see why I should care if its year multiplies by five! Birthdays are nice, I get birthdays, but I'm not convinced anniversary years are much more than navel-gazing.

Rotating setlists, sometimes brilliant, but there's no equity. I caught them in Newport on the Systematic Chaos tour, and I think they must have thought Wales was a different country to England, because they played a set of classics like they'd never been here before:

1. Constant Motion
2. Panic Attack
3. Endless Sacrifice
4. Surrounded
5. The Dark Eternal Night
6. As I Am
7. I Walk Beside You
8. The Spirit Carries On
9. In the Presence of Enemies

Over the next couple of days, when they moved to England, they played Never Enough, Blind Faith, Forsaken, Another Day, Scarred, Strange Deja-Vu and The Ministry of Lost Souls... it seems a bit of a shame to have missed out on some genuine rarities for all the stuff they'd played like mad on the last couple of tours. It was only my second ever DT gig - I'd already seen a full third of those songs before, another third were new to this album and essential to this tour, and while TSCO was nice, I Walk Beside You turned out to be the biggest wildcard! Rotating setlists aren't necessarily better or worse, they're just more erratic.

That said, I'd happily take something like the 20th Anniversary World Tour, where there was a built-in structure but an incredibly flexible one. I think rotations work a lot better with An Evening With in general, actually, I'd have loved to have caught some of the more ridiculous setlists on the SDoIT tour. But there's a happy medium, and I don't think they've quite got there yet. The quality of the show has definitely improved, massively, since they fixed the set in place, but I think there's a way to work rotations in. Although Muse are one of the guiltiest bands, in terms of filling their sets with the umpteenth rendition of Starlight, they've done rotations quite nicely in the past. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDL0knIB_E)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 30, 2014, 08:52:13 AM
As a bootleg collector and video enthusiast I wholly support rotating setlists, if the shows are comparable in quality.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
You raise an interesting point robwebster, kind of like I've been saying but much better phrased, as usual :P. I think there's a way to handle rotation without compromising the tightness and lighting aspects of the shows, other bands have done it and it worked out great, Muse is one example, U2 is another, and many others. They have a bulk that gets fixed but other songs that get into rotation.

As for the anniversary, I'm not against them by principle but I have to say that two are overkill. I think they should have kept Awake 20th, but Scenes 15th is unnecesary. And even in the 20th of Awake I'd prefer they mixed up the songs in the shows instead of playing the same chunk one after the other. Awake isn't a concept album, I would have like them to mix the songs in the setlist. 6:00/Caught In a Web one day, THe Mirror/Lie the other, etc. and have them in unpredictable places instead of all of them played in album order.
Scenes is an album that for me is all or nothing, it' a story, and having songs removed kind of feels like messing up with it, I wouldn't like Pink Floyd in a tribute to The Wall to play the In The Flesh?/The Thin Ice/Another Brick In the Wall only to jump to Comfortably Numb and the ending afterwards, I don't know, it feels... wrong :-\. I'd rather have a big 20th anniversary tour(god knows that album deserves it, even if it's outside my top 5) than this, and removing Scenes from this setlist frees up a lot of space that can be much better used IMHO.

Maybe when I see the show for myself I'll eat my ass and balls words, I'll gladly admit I was wrong, but I think they still have adjustments to make. Like robwebster said, every year is a 20th or a 15th, they can't suddenly start into an anniversary kind of band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2014, 11:01:59 AM
6:00 and Caught in a Web got played a ton on the last tour.  Besides, most of Side 2 of Awake has been woefully underrepresented at DT concerts for way too long, so playing all of it on this tour is a huge treat for fans of that album.

Scenes is like I&W in that playing pretty much anything from it is gonna go over well with live crowds, so I say, ignore the fact that it is its 15th anniversary and just figure they are playing a chunk of it because it's awesome and they know fans will love it. :tup :tup

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 30, 2014, 01:00:23 PM
I certainly wouldn't want SFAM to be just relegated to "all or nothing" status, because that would mean it would only get played every 10 years or so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 30, 2014, 01:38:29 PM
Ok, more controversial opinions...
Their videos. They suck!
DT is the kind of band that should put out beautiful, highly well produced and deep videos. But instead we got this lousy work for years. It's such a disharmony with their songs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on March 30, 2014, 01:43:24 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
Maybe when I see the show for myself I'll eat my ass and balls words, I'll gladly admit I was wrong,
The setlist definitely makes more sense once you've experienced it yourself ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 02:24:55 PM
Quote from: ? on March 30, 2014, 01:43:24 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
Maybe when I see the show for myself I'll eat my ass and balls words, I'll gladly admit I was wrong,
The setlist definitely makes more sense once you've experienced it yourself ;)
I'm pretty sure it will be, as I said before and I'll say it one last time and then shut up: looking at the setlist it's seems great for me, as Awake is my favourite album, Scenes is great too and the rest of the songs seem pretty great, all I'm saying it's that I'd like it to have minor variations, Trial of Tears swapping with Lines In The Sand on the same spot, The Shattered Fortress with The Glass Prison, some DT12 with the others left off, that's all I'm asking for, the essence of the show remains untouched but there is just a little unpredictability, that would be like in my perfect world where everything is fit for my personal taste, which I'm very aware that it's 100% selfish. I think what DT is doing is great anyway, they've certainly put a lot of thought into the show, and if you don't like the setlist the greatest thing about DT is their regularity with albums, they'll probably come again in 2 years with a different thing, so it's all good in the end.

It's not easy, other bands have shorter songs so they can swap them around and bring great variation more easily, DT with their 10 min average means each song takes a good chunk of the set time, so it's hard/almost impossible to come up with a balanced setlist that isn't going to miss one great song at the very list. It's the double edge sword of having so much great material, no matter what they put on the set, a great song is going to be missed anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 30, 2014, 04:34:47 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on March 29, 2014, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
After watching the Take Away My Pain jam/documentary again, I have to say Mangini sounds completely amazing on it. I'm kind of afraid he's not going to sound this good with DT ever again since both his album and his live sound has been pretty underwhelming so far imo.

That's because on the documentary he doesn't play on his own kit :hat
Not this again. His sound is overwhelmingly reliant on the production, not on the actual kit he's pounding. Dennis Chambers uses the same kit on the latest Niacin album and it's hands down the best drum sound I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 09:16:15 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on March 30, 2014, 01:38:29 PM
Ok, more controversial opinions...
Their videos. They suck!
DT is the kind of band that should put out beautiful, highly well produced and deep videos. But instead we got this lousy work for years. It's such a disharmony with their songs

Well produced videos cost money, which takes away from money that they could use on more practical things. In the end, videos are just a promotional tool, and while having a better video is better for promotion, I don't think DT rely nearly enough on music videos for gaining fans for it to be a priority.
While it wasn't anything amazing or earth shattering, I thought The Looking Glass video was pretty nice. It certainly didn't suck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:33:59 PM
Not to mention these days videos are a lot less important than in the MTV days. I think when they keep it simple(The Looking Glass) they don't suck. A Rite Of Passage doesn't suck considering the lyrical matter, and Wither was quite nice. I don't know what benefit they would gain from better videos, they are not a very visual appealing band anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 30, 2014, 11:58:31 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 30, 2014, 05:05:51 AM
Frankly, I'm not sure why an anniversary's a big deal. If you're celebrating anniversary years, every year's an anniversary year for every album.

I think they're pretty exciting. But I understand that interest would totally disappear if they did these 'anniversaries' all the time. I do however believe it's a decent way to represent parts of their discography because everything gets it's own turn. I mean if it weren't for the anniversary concept we wouldn't have got this crazy setlist and probably would have just got the rest of DT12 and more I&W (not like that's anything to complain about, but I&W is always represented, and do we really need them to play the new album in it's entirety straight away?). Then again the 'Scenes Medley' is a bit weird though because there's always gonna be wholes in the concept (story) if they only play a third of the album. Still, it has it's place on the set so I'm cool with that.

Quote from: robwebster on March 30, 2014, 05:05:51 AM
Although Muse are one of the guiltiest bands, in terms of filling their sets with the umpteenth rendition of Starlight, they've done rotations quite nicely in the past. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDL0knIB_E)

I probably find that way cooler than it is, but wow that's amazing! Even if it was fixed or something, that's quite an exciting way to present the next song to the audience.  :xbones

Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 30, 2014, 09:16:15 PM
In the end, videos are just a promotional tool, and while having a better video is better for promotion, I don't think DT rely nearly enough on music videos for gaining fans for it to be a priority.
Quote from: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:33:59 PM
Not to mention these days videos are a lot less important than in the MTV days.

Definitely not as important anymore, but I wouldn't dismiss their importance in promotional value because sadly, a lot of people only listen to music through youtube these days (which I guess is the third main method for people to have access to music instead of buying or pirating it). I have a group of friends that are always sharing and attempting to indoctrinate people into likening their music, and it's always these generalised metal bands that have pretty buzzy (trippy) videos. And like.. they have a video for almost every song on their album, even if they're not that big of a band (from my perspective). It actually bothers me just a little bit because it's almost as if, at parties or something all the music that's being put on is through a system connected to youtube and if your music doesn't have a video for it then it'll have a much less likely chance of being played. Brutal.  :lol
I mean, it's not like the videos are bad, but it starts to become more about watching it. For example, in some cases the cinematic value of the video becomes essential for the context of the song which is relying on the symbolism to have the lyrics make sense. That's a cool idea and everything but I think a video should be a supplement and only that. Otherwise music vids are something I tend to avoid because I prefer the music to be able to stand on it's own.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 31, 2014, 03:31:21 AM
Quote from: Invisible on March 30, 2014, 10:33:59 PM
Not to mention these days videos are a lot less important than in the MTV days. I think when they keep it simple(The Looking Glass) they don't suck. A Rite Of Passage doesn't suck considering the lyrical matter, and Wither was quite nice. I don't know what benefit they would gain from better videos, they are not a very visual appealing band anyway.

I do think their videos need to have more of THEM. I mean, The Looking Glass did it right. But TEI and Forsaken, the visual content was pretty cool, and it had substance, but the one thing they lacked for me was the band. And when the band isn't in the video, to me, that starts making it seem like the video was created without their involvement at all.
I think TEI would have been so much better if every once in a while, the video was intercut with the footage of the band performing the song the way they were in The Looking Glass or OTBOA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 04:21:08 AM
Agreed. I can't watch The Enemy Inside video anymore, I know it's supposed to be a serious issue but it takes itself way too seriously. And I just find the guys' acting humorous, he's just totally freakin out about the BBQ, and that supermarket scene.. :laugh: I also don't appreciate people cutting into the song to tell me their 'Nam stories. But really, I don't mind the subject matter, it's just the lack of DT is probably my main issue because I probably wouldn't have thought much into the rest of the videos content if it was just normal music video nonsense (which it kind of is) BUT with shots of the band. But as it stands, I guess it leaves more to be desired. I think A Rite of Passage is my favourite video but not a fan of cutting out the solos (it's even more of a crime chopping up that completely amazing solo in Constant Motion).

I thought I liked On The Backs Of Angels video the first time I saw it, but then I realised how low budget it was and JLB face everywhere.   :rollin

Then again, I don't even want Dream Theater to go high budget on their videos because it ends up being pointless crap that tries to make a fake story out of the song (I know that's an unfair generalisation, but it's a generalisation :P). AROP was about right (apart form the edits), the band playing a song, looking all badass n stuff, with symbolism and imagery that is appropriate for the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 11:41:29 AM
Yeah, I don't get on with the TEI video - I don't think it works for me. Not very slick, a little bit college movie project, and I don't like the speaking over the intro. Splits the focus too much. On the Backs of Angels is cool, though. Good live visuals, a little repetitious for it but thrifty but striking, and I do like The Looking Glass - nothing special, but pretty and tastefully directed.

I think videos are absolutely as important as they've ever been, though. Frankly, they're more important, now: aside from Pull Me Under, they never got seen in MTV's heyday. Now that we can curate our own playlists, YouTube is the first place most people go to stream music, so that video's now going to be the first thing the next generation of fans is going to see. Give them something cool to look at.

Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on March 31, 2014, 01:44:30 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 11:41:29 AM


 Now that we can curate our own playlists, YouTube is the first place most people go to stream music, so that video's now going to be the first thing the next generation of fans is going to see. Give them something cool to look at.



This! Videos are a very important marketing tool!
Exchanging songs with friends today = exchanging videos on youtube!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on March 31, 2014, 04:15:14 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.
Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on March 31, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Parama on March 31, 2014, 04:15:14 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.
Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.

I believe "universally" meant "mostly", and at least if you use the forum's polls as reference (which are not necessarily the truth but a useful tool to have some sort of idea of how a majority think) the album is mostly praised. Perhaps the opinions which lean the balance towards disliking are more noticeable but, in quantity, most criticism I've read (most likely applies to theseoafs too) inside and outside the forum has been positive.

It's all in the word "universally", though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on March 31, 2014, 04:51:41 PM
Agreed.

The naysayers tend to be a bit more vocal...but seriously.  I think a supermajority (which I believe is defined as "greater than 60%") really love the album.   

I would be willing to bet that a HUGE majority would say it was their best since Six Degrees.   I certainly think it's their best since Octavarium (though I'm in the minority in thinking that album is amazing...but it's grown in popularity since its release). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 11:41:29 AM
Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!

Their was a Dark Eternal Night video?  :o I thought I was aware of them all but.. Dam. I haven't seen this, sounds curious.

Another thing that just occurred to me, Is on the modern consoles like Xbox Live for example, I remember a while back typing in Dream Theater into the music section to see what would happen (half expected to not find anything), but all the music vids showed up. From Pull Me Under/Take The Time/Another Day to The Slilent Man/Lie/Hollow Years to Contant Motion/A Rite of Passage/On The Backs of Angels/The Enemy Inside (and weirdly, a Live video of Forsaken from Chaos in Motion I think it was?). Apparently it was premium content that I couldn't access but their was like a 30 second preview for each one, I remember the Forsaken preview was actually a really good moment, just before the vocals get iffy. xD

Anyway, as much as DT couldn't have anticipated it, the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 05:19:24 PM
Quote from: Parama on March 31, 2014, 04:15:14 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.
Uhh not really? Been seeing plenty of people who dislike it and it's in competition for their worst album IMO.
When I first logged on after the album's release, I saw a couple of people kicking up a fuss every time a DT12 track came up on anyone's top fifty list, and thought, "Oh, crikey, did it not go down particularly well?" A few more weeks revealed that, yes, it basically had, and it was just a few people hyping each other up. That's just happenstance, there's at least a handful of people who don't get on with every album; I'm probably one of those guys for Awake - I think it's all right, but but don't like it nearly as much as half the rest of this board does. I think it's a mistake to confuse that with a consensus, though, just as, in fairness, it's a mistake to confuse the consensus of this board with the fanbase at large. Constant Motion got played a lot because it was genuinely beloved - went down a treat at gigs, completely at odds with DTF.

No idea what the rest of the world's doing, but it's my experience that Dream Theater's been received fairly warmly, here.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
Quote from: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 11:41:29 AM
Funnily, the old Dark Eternal Night video is probably the one that best matches the song. TDEN's great heard, but mindblowing witnessed. They seem to have taken it down, now, imagine the video quality's not as competitive any more. Was good, though!

Their was a Dark Eternal Night video?  :o I thought I was aware of them all but.. Dam. I haven't seen this, sounds curious.
It was just a little in-studio thing - footage of the recording itself - but it was actually the first anyone saw of TDEN! They released the video before the album came out, so we'd already had Constant Motion and then they released this grimy slab of crushing instrumental chaos.

ETA: The original is absolutely nowhere to be seen, no official channels, but it looked a bit like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-I5FimEeU
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 05:24:59 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band.  :lol
The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 31, 2014, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 05:24:59 PM
The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

What I noticed is that this time around (at least here) there were SIGNIFICANTLY more women. Younger 20 - 30 something women, in fact. That was quite an interesting (and dramatic) turn of events.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:51:38 PM
Quote from: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 05:24:59 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band.  :lol
The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

Yeah um.. I think you're describing me. I was 19 in 2009 and Black Clouds is the only tour that has come to my country and then they never came back!  :lol And I got exposed to more DT because of music rhythm games.. Oh the shame.  :blush In fairness, they were actually the most fun songs to play, and very satisfying to do well in (constant motion solo was finger destruction). And I really wanted to play the keyboard parts for On The Backs of Angels but never got the keyboard peripheral, which actually plays like the real thing being a genuine (abeit rather flimsy and plastic) 2 octave keyboard. Also, OTBOA was the only song on Rock Band 3 for a while to have the max difficulty rating for nearly every category (excluding vocals).  :xbones

Quote from: robwebster on March 31, 2014, 05:19:24 PM
The original is absolutely nowhere to be seen, no official channels, but it looked a bit like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-I5FimEeU

Thanks for that, many lulz.  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 06:14:47 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:51:38 PM
Quote from: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 05:24:59 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
the only music people using some of these mediums will be exposed to are the old music vids, and the songs that are available on Rock Band.  :lol
The music game genre did a lot for DT at the time. Do you know how many teenagers attended the Black Clouds tour wearing DT shirts? Although most the crowd for AFtR was 50-something year old dudes.

Yeah um.. I think you're describing me. I was 19 in 2009 and Black Clouds is the only tour that has come to my country and then they never came back!  :lol And I got exposed to more DT because of music rhythm games.. Oh the shame. 
It's funny, I got into DT around the same time as all of those posers, and being in 5th-6th grade at the time that's probably what people thought of me. Little did they know that I got into my dad's DT collection and experienced my first eargasm.

I didn't mean to call you a poser, just a joke.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 31, 2014, 06:55:03 PM
Oh no offence taken at all, I just thought it was funny because I was getting into them around that time too. A bunch of friends of mine went to that concert and were apparently quite into DT at the time and were real excited about the concert and these days they pretend like they never used to like them at all or something, it's weird. For me DT made it's way to being my #1 band and has been retaining that spot for the last 5 years.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 31, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 31, 2014, 07:30:54 PM
4/1 bro
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on March 31, 2014, 08:11:34 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on March 31, 2014, 07:30:54 PM
4/1 bro
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 31, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?
But... but... He'll save every one of us!

DUN DUN... DEN... DUN DIN... DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUNBA BA BOOM FLASH... AHH AHHHHHHHH...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 31, 2014, 09:40:05 PM
Quote from: Grizz on March 31, 2014, 09:26:44 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 31, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?
But... but... He'll save every one of us!

DUN DUN... DEN... DUN DIN... DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUNBA BA BOOM FLASH... AHH AHHHHHHHH...

See, now there's a Queen song that DT needs to cover!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 05, 2014, 08:30:01 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 31, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
My controversial opinion is that the current DTF layout sucks. What the hell?
It's a DTF tradition to change the forum to something else on April 1st. 

If you think Flash Gordon was bad, you would have had a heart attack over some of the past choices lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on April 05, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Probably not all that controversial but TLG is a close 2nd to IT as the best song on DT and TEI is the least awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 05, 2014, 03:29:49 PM
Quote from: AngelBack on April 05, 2014, 03:02:26 PM
Probably not all that controversial but TLG is a close 2nd to IT as the best song on DT and TEI is the least awesome.

Still awesome though. TEI really does stand out. Even though the album is full of shorter songs, they're all still quite grand and melodic, and TEI being the only rocker on it.. It kind of stands out. Maybe they should've had another rocker on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on April 06, 2014, 02:02:40 AM
Behind the Veil, Enigma Machine, and False Awakening Suite are all pretty heavy. As are most of the vocal passages in Illumination Theory.

The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason aren't mega heavy, but they, too, are recognisably rock.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 06, 2014, 03:24:59 AM
Quote from: robwebster on April 06, 2014, 02:02:40 AM
Behind the Veil, Enigma Machine, and False Awakening Suite are all pretty heavy. As are most of the vocal passages in Illumination Theory.

Yeah, but BTV is still quite melodic, and doesn't have the same thrashy feel as TEI, which can be compared to songs like Panic Attack, in terms of its intensity. I can't say that about BtV. As for the other two, they might be heavy, but they're also instrumentals and extremely progressive, so I would never call them "Rockers".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on April 06, 2014, 04:44:32 AM
I think that's a false dichotomy. There are Dream Theater songs that more neatly fit one label than the other, but very few songs are just the one label, and no album has defied pigeon-holing more than DT12. The Enemy Inside is a ball of raw energy, it's the thrashiest song on the disc, but it's still heaving with melodic and progressive elements, all tightly packed into six minutes. Surrender to Reason, likewise, is both the murkiest, grimiest song on the album when you get to that gritty instrumental break, but also one of the most uplifting.

Behind the Veil is sort of all things at once. It's not the blitzkrieg of notes that TEI is, but it's a rocker, and it's an anthem, and it's a technical marvel. I think there's a fair argument that Enigma Machine's way heavier than The Enemy Inside.  I don't think belonging to one category disqualifies it from the other. The Enemy Inside's probably the only one on the album where a single category can tell even half the story!

So, yeah, I agree that The Enemy Inside is the only song on the album that particularly sounds like The Enemy Inside... but I think its miles upon miles away from being the only rocker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 06, 2014, 11:38:26 AM
I still feel like it stands out. Everything that comes after it just fits together so well, but The Enemy Inside is like The Glass Prison on SDOIT. Compared to how the other songs go from melodic and orchestral, to down right atmospheric, TGS, being as heavy as it is, is almost jarring. And sure, on disc 2, we do get really heavy parts like War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All, but if you consider them a part of a greater whole that is the title song, then they're a very small part of a very progressive, epic and orchestral whole, so The Glass Prison still stands out like a sore thumb on the album for me. Even to a greater extent than TEI. But I guess I'm the only one who finds the presence of those songs jarring, compared to the rest of their respective albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 06, 2014, 10:41:47 PM
I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 06, 2014, 11:16:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 06, 2014, 10:41:47 PM
I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.

I'm sure he's got on and off days. But I paid close attention to him when I went to see them this year, and he sounded flawless to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 07, 2014, 12:01:16 AM
I think he's improved on that front over the past few tours, and has dialed back a bit on the vibrato which covers it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on April 07, 2014, 03:36:35 AM
Did I read somewhere (I'm sure it might have actually been in Lifting Shadows) that David Prater contends that JLB tends to sing consistently a little flat? That's his contention. I'm not saying whether I agree or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 07, 2014, 06:13:47 PM
I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on April 07, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 06, 2014, 10:41:47 PM
I'm not sure whether this is even all that controversial, but having seen them live many times over the years, I have to say James has a problem with intonation. I think they crank up the volume in their concerts to cover that up (and on official releases they patch it up), but when you listen to some more raw recordings of their concerts, he is off-pitch quite a bit.

I contend that it's not controversial at all; nor is it an opinion. It's just a flat (no pun intended) out fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on April 07, 2014, 08:46:19 PM
Would it be fair to say something like, The Enemy Inside = Constant Motion = As I Am = A Rite Of Passage = Pull Me Under = Panic Attack = On The Backs Of Angels? (I'd almost say Honor Thy Father, but that one's sorta different somehow, and As I Am kind of fits the bill just a little bit more. Same with Build Me Up Break Me Down, it has all the bits and pieces, it's problem is that OTBOA exists). I'm not just listing singles here, it's just all of these songs seem to serve a similar purpose on the album they originate from. I believe the other albums have a candidate for this idea but it gets more convoluted and subjective to include them all.

But DT songs can definitely be categorised into multiple different categories depending on your definition, so nothing is set. Although to me, The Enemy Inside is the 'hard rocker' by default, essentially the opening track (after an intro), being used as a set opener live, was released as the single. It's non stop energetic. It does actually have a few more elements than the 'hard rockers' of the past but I think it primarily takes this role on the new album. I be careful not to use the word 'heavy' because even though TEI is certainly a heavy song, the tone and technique style plays a huge part in determining if it's 'hard' or 'heavy' (but I'll avoid getting into attempts to describe abstract sounds with common words that can't properly define these ideas, they can only symbolise them).  :mehlin Because as someone mentioned, Enigma Machine is arguably 'heavier' than The Enemy Inside. And the other songs on DT12 seem to represent multiple DT styles.

Considering all that though, it still feels like another 'hard rocker' (for lack of better simple description) would've been nice on DT12 but that's just me. There's more than enough content in the other songs to be happy and I can't expect DT to tred the same ground twice just for the sake of it, but all the songs mentioned at the beginning of this post, I think DT need to make more in the style of. ;)

They're really good at making these songs, but I always think they hold back and only write about 1 every album cycle, trying and stick to their proggy roots which tends to lean away from these 'harder' songs. BUT it absolutely doesn't have to.

Then again they're also good doing 'epicly big' sounding songs, but still structured to a formula (like The Bigger Picture, which for serious lack of a better word is almost a ballad, but it's too HUGE to be considered as such in the traditional sense). And they've been pulling that off pretty well lately (Breaking All Illusions/Bridges In The Sky/Behind The Veil etc.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on April 08, 2014, 10:10:52 AM
Quote from: Grizz on April 07, 2014, 06:13:47 PM
I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.

The drums on both Octavarium and ToT sound amazing. ToT has some of Rudess's best synth sounds and I think the heavy riffs required the gain. No idea what you're going on about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on April 08, 2014, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on April 08, 2014, 10:10:52 AM
Quote from: Grizz on April 07, 2014, 06:13:47 PM
I think the production on FII and Octavarium is a little to bright, to the point of feeling cold. The problem mostly lies in the drums on the former and the vocals on the latter.

On the other end, we have ToT, with way too much guitar gain, too much pig and synthy string sound, and a muddy drum mix that could only be topped by ADToE.

The drums on both Octavarium and ToT sound amazing. ToT has some of Rudess's best synth sounds and I think the heavy riffs required the gain. No idea what you're going on about.

I agree; I've never noticed any problems with these things. I've always thought that the drums on ToT were distinctly high quality relative to the rest of DT's catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 08, 2014, 07:04:00 PM
My main beef with ToT's sound is that one of the trashy cymbals that MP frequently rides on is mixed to be low and inarticulate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on April 09, 2014, 09:12:05 PM
Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on April 09, 2014, 09:15:21 PM
Maybe elsewhere, but on DTF the abbreviations are very appreciated and click quite easily after a little while afaik :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 09, 2014, 09:28:46 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on April 09, 2014, 09:12:05 PM
Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.
Sorry, but that is probably not going to happen very often.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 09, 2014, 09:30:16 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on April 09, 2014, 09:12:05 PM
Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.

Well, Dream Theater is definitely a band that's WORTH knowing totally by heart.
The abbreviations don't really confuse me, but what bugs me about them sometimes is that I feel like these songs and albums deserve to be written out in full. They're too good to just be abbreviated. But it's a minor hangup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 09, 2014, 10:02:27 PM
There's another forum I go to that has a good little feature installed where common acronyms are automatically underlined, and when you hover over them, it pops up with what it stands for. Not sure if this forum software would support that add-on, but I found it to be a useful feature as a noob.
But you get used to the acronyms quickly enough if you stick around. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 10, 2014, 04:24:15 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on April 07, 2014, 08:46:19 PM
Would it be fair to say something like, The Enemy Inside = Constant Motion = As I Am = A Rite Of Passage = Pull Me Under = Panic Attack = On The Backs Of Angels? (I'd almost say Honor Thy Father, but that one's sorta different somehow, and As I Am kind of fits the bill just a little bit more. Same with Build Me Up Break Me Down, it has all the bits and pieces, it's problem is that OTBOA exists). I'm not just listing singles here, it's just all of these songs seem to serve a similar purpose on the album they originate from. I believe the other albums have a candidate for this idea but it gets more convoluted and subjective to include them all.

But DT songs can definitely be categorised into multiple different categories depending on your definition, so nothing is set. Although to me, The Enemy Inside is the 'hard rocker' by default, essentially the opening track (after an intro), being used as a set opener live, was released as the single. It's non stop energetic. It does actually have a few more elements than the 'hard rockers' of the past but I think it primarily takes this role on the new album. I be careful not to use the word 'heavy' because even though TEI is certainly a heavy song, the tone and technique style plays a huge part in determining if it's 'hard' or 'heavy' (but I'll avoid getting into attempts to describe abstract sounds with common words that can't properly define these ideas, they can only symbolise them).  :mehlin Because as someone mentioned, Enigma Machine is arguably 'heavier' than The Enemy Inside. And the other songs on DT12 seem to represent multiple DT styles.

Considering all that though, it still feels like another 'hard rocker' (for lack of better simple description) would've been nice on DT12 but that's just me. There's more than enough content in the other songs to be happy and I can't expect DT to tred the same ground twice just for the sake of it, but all the songs mentioned at the beginning of this post, I think DT need to make more in the style of. ;)

They're really good at making these songs, but I always think they hold back and only write about 1 every album cycle, trying and stick to their proggy roots which tends to lean away from these 'harder' songs. BUT it absolutely doesn't have to.

Then again they're also good doing 'epicly big' sounding songs, but still structured to a formula (like The Bigger Picture, which for serious lack of a better word is almost a ballad, but it's too HUGE to be considered as such in the traditional sense). And they've been pulling that off pretty well lately (Breaking All Illusions/Bridges In The Sky/Behind The Veil etc.)
I think they have a balanced amount of hard rockers, but then again, it's completely subjective as to what songs you like the most from the band. Whatever style they chose to do, you'll want more of the one you liked.

To the ones you mentioned, I'd add The Root Of All Evil in Octavarium, Caught In A Web, Lie from Awake(and 6:00 depending on how it sounds to you), Burning My Soul from FII, Raise The Knife on the B Sides, Strange Deja Vu and Beyond This Life on Scenes(we could discuss these two, but they kind of fit IMHO). The funny thing is that the only album where it's absent is Six Degrees, unless you count About To Crash(Reprise) but it doesn't fit into straight hard rockers.

All things considered, they've done their fair share of rockers I think, but as I said, it's 100% subjective. I'm not sure if they hold back to making more songs like this, I think these sort of songs are actually a result of them holding back of doing something more "proggier" whatever you want to call it and trying to keep it straight and straightforward. It's hard when you have multiple musicians who can take one riff and elaborate 10 different ideas on the spot to actually preserve that riff or style through the entire song and not take it into different paths.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on April 10, 2014, 03:49:46 PM
There's less energy on these newer DT records. I can hear they've matured, they're not rocking as hard anymore, even though it sometimes is 'heavy'.

In that respect, Train of Thought was perfectly timed. They were still relatively young then, and I feel that they've perfectly conveyed the dark and heavy emotions on that record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 10, 2014, 03:54:09 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on April 10, 2014, 03:49:46 PM
There's less energy on these newer DT records. I can hear they've matured, they're not rocking as hard anymore, even though it sometimes is 'heavy'.

In that respect, Train of Thought was perfectly timed. They were still relatively young then, and I feel that they've perfectly conveyed the dark and heavy emotions on that record.

Although I love ToT, I will admit, that certain parts of it, like the ending of TDS and certain instrumental bits here and there, may have had TOO much energy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love those parts, but that doesn't mean that DT should put that kind of craziness into every record. Aside from that, if by not rocking as hard, you mean they don't really have anything to be passionately angry about, I agree, but then it wasn't like I&W, SFAM or SDOIT were particularly "hard" either. In terms of heaviness, I'd say DT is more "Metal" than they've ever been, at least, at their most extreme these days.
But they don't need to be angry or angsty to be hard rocking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 10, 2014, 09:50:17 PM
If The Enemy Inside or Enigma Machine aren't energetic, I don't know what is. :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on April 11, 2014, 10:53:41 AM
I do not like Beyond This Life at all. The first part of it is interesting and cool lyrically and vocal melody, but then it descends into too much "OH WELL LET'S THROW THIS IN FUCK IT" type of playing that kind of sets back my love for a lot of Prog Rock based bands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 11, 2014, 12:14:35 PM
I used to agree on that, but after seeing Live at Budokan I changed my mind. But I still agree that it's only cool to watch live, not so great to just listen on a record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on April 11, 2014, 01:14:32 PM
I agree that the instrumental section really brings it down, but the rest is so good that I still really like the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 11, 2014, 02:42:44 PM
The instrumental section is easily the worst part, but I'm not crazy about the rest of the song either. The main riff is kind of generic, the vocal melodies are forgettable and the lyrics are pretty clumsy because of the newspaper style they were written in. I know it's part of the concept and all that jazz, but it makes me cringe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 11, 2014, 02:57:48 PM
I think that instrumental section is great on its own, but being a song that comes right after Fatal Tragedy, it's inevitably a let down. It just can't compare.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 11, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
The instrumental section of BTL is not only a highlight of the song for me, but a highlight of the album, and one of my favourite tracks. That is what I love hearing from DT. Crazy, fun, wacky, fast, incredible, without any pretension, off the leash. It makes me mourn for some of the more recent albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on April 12, 2014, 12:54:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 11, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
The instrumental section of BTL is not only a highlight of the song for me, but a highlight of the album, and one of my favourite tracks.

:hifive:

Pretender has a good point though, it comes after Fatal Tragedy. I do prefer it over BTL but it isn't a letdown for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 12, 2014, 01:08:37 AM
Ok, controversial opinion: Fatal Tragedy is a song that probably wouldn't make my Top 70.

 :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 12, 2014, 01:45:25 AM
Quote from: Invisible on April 12, 2014, 01:08:37 AM
Ok, controversial opinion: Fatal Tragedy is a song that probably wouldn't make my Top 70.

 :corn

As much as I love it, the first part is not my favorite. But here's how I divide it up:

Vocal part: 4/10
Instrumental part: 15/10

So the average is still 9/10. That instrumental is just too amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 12, 2014, 05:57:43 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 12, 2014, 01:45:25 AM
That instrumental is just too amazing.
Agreed.  One of my favorite parts of any album, DT or otherwise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on April 16, 2014, 10:59:19 PM
Quote from: ? on April 11, 2014, 02:42:44 PM
The instrumental section is easily the worst part, but I'm not crazy about the rest of the song either. The main riff is kind of generic, the vocal melodies are forgettable and the lyrics are pretty clumsy because of the newspaper style they were written in. I know it's part of the concept and all that jazz, but it makes me cringe.

I think it's my favourite song on the album although some other songs have some other great moments, the instrumental section does it for me. The riffs are simple but catchy, and are just rockin during the solos. And the guitar sweeps (you know the bit) blow my mind every time. Even Jordans infamous horn section has completely grown on me, which started off from 'what the hell is this'. My only gripe with the song is that the opening/motif riff isn't particularly interesting. But it also grew on me in context of it's development later, but I'll admit it almost puts you off the song at first.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on April 16, 2014, 11:23:48 PM
I'm apparently the only person in the world who thinks this, but I quite like the beginning of Fatal Tragedy, and absolutely despise the instrumental section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on April 17, 2014, 12:07:56 AM
The instrumental section of Beyond This Life is my favorite part of the song, and it's probably my second favorite song on the album  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 17, 2014, 02:06:43 AM
Here's another controversial (?) opinion. I started typing this post in the Opeth thread (we were discussing diversity) but it definitely belongs here.

I don't think DT's lastest few albums have been very diverse. SC and BC&SL were similar to each other. ADTOE and DT12 basically for me were just representations of the core DT sound, albeit two different sides of it. They didn't introduce anything new to me, except for the orchestral section on IT, Beneath the Surface and the intro to BITS.

If you start at WDADU and go forward in time, there's a huge variety of styles in DT's albums. I&W is a more refined, mature and proggy version of WDADU, where the band found the sound they were looking for and all the tiny flaws in songwriting were fixed. Awake is structured differently, is a lot darker and isn't standard prog at all IMO.
FII was a lot more simple and maybe commercial, and while not everyone likes it and most people don't like a few songs on it, the good songs on that album are truly great and add diversity to DT's catalogue.
SFAM was the band's first full-fledged concept album and it sounded more 'modern', while also in a way paying homage to classic prog. More diversity. SDOIT, IMO, is their most experimental album to date by a mile, and while being classic DT (especially the second disk), it discovers new ground while still being amazing. Heck, it's my favourite DT album.
ToT was like Awake in a way, because it was a lot darker and heavier than usual. However, it sounded a lot different from Awake; for example, while Awake had a very distinctive feature in JLB's epic vocals like I&W, ToT had some really good melodies but JLB sounds totally different. Of course, this is logical regarding the vocal chords incident, but it still makes a large difference. ToT is heavier than Awake, has fewer songs and different structures. Not all people like ToT, but again, it IS different.
Octavarium was basically a summation of most of the things DT had done before, with the modern sound of ToT and SFAM. In my opinion, that's also diversity. Why? Because, for example, the heavy songs (i.e. TROAE and PA) are not as dark and thus couldn't have really fitted on ToT. The shorter, more poppy songs, like IWBY and TALW, couldn't have fitted on FII either. The album is a summation of styles, but the songs fit together really well and all have some distinctive quality which makes them a bit different.
Now we arrive at SC. For me, SC was a bit of a mix of Octavarium and ToT. It was a heavy and dark album, but not as dark as ToT. Still, here's where the diversity begins to decline a bit for me. There are definitely some new ideas on this album (PoW, Repentance, CM) but not all of them work so well, and the overall sound of the album isn't that different from things they've done before. Still, I think the album is diverse and differs in some way from the previous albums, and I like the album.
BC&SL marked another slight decline in diversity. Again, it was pretty heavy and dark, but now the album was focused on long songs and lots of instrumental stuff. There aren't a lot of new ideas/concepts on this disk, but there are some: the volume swells in TCOT and MP's more prominent background vocals (which also were more prominent on SC, and which I think most people don't really like that much). Again, I like the album, but it just isn't that diverse as an album and it doesn't offer a very great deal of 'new' sounds or styles.
ADTOE for me marked a big decline in diversity. For me, the album basically marks a return to DT's familiar sound without sounding very dark or very heavy. Still, it absolutely sounds like DT. I don't really mind this album not being different; it is a good album, and hey, you have to stabilize a bit after you've just had a founding member leave, right?
However, I was very much disappointed when DT12 came out. For me, while it would seem like the album is very different from the rest of the discography, it is not. Yes, the songs are shorter, and more focused on choruses. Yes, there is a huge orchestral section in the epic. Yes, there is a sort of Easter Egg outro to that same epic. But still, in my opinion its sound isn't different from the rest of DT's discography at all. In my opinion, this is basically just another summation of DT's sound which started with Octavarium. SC, BC&SL, ADTOE and DT12 do not sound very different at all; maybe ADTOE is the odd one out here, but that's only because it's less dark and heavy than the rest.

Someone who had attended the listening parties for DT12, I don't remember who it was, said on this forum that DT12 sounded a bit like SC and BC&SL style mixed with I&W and Awake's shorter songs. That got me very excited. I love all of these albums. And in a way, it did sound like that. But it didn't sound like that in a way that I had expected, or rather, in a way that I hadn't expected. What do I mean by that? Well, I had expected something new, which still retained the DT core sound. In a way, I had expected DT12 to do something similar to what SDOIT had done, which was experimenting with new ideas while retaining the core sound. And with a new drummer, I had expected something new. Well, for me it wasn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 07:49:39 PM
I'm new, so be gentle, as it's my first time...  :hat

Awake is by far Dream Theater's greatest achievement. Not only is it their bravest, most experimental work (before their typical style and routine was solidified), but it is their clear masterpiece in terms of musical composition and lyrics. An incredible work of art, and whilst I rate Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as their other classics, it makes me sad that the band will never try anything as progressive as Awake again due to its poor reception in some circles.

Having said that, Images and Words is perhaps their most flawless album, and likely the most perfect album out there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 07:55:09 PM
Welcome to the forums! Actually, this thread is for opinions that most people would disagree with. I'm pretty sure that most people (here, anyway) would agree with all you've said.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 07:55:09 PM
Welcome to the forums! Actually, this thread is for opinions that most people would disagree with. I'm pretty sure that most people (here, anyway) would agree with all you've said.

I've read a lot of dislike for Awake in the online fan community, although I admit it may be disproportionate and not at all representative. Thankfully, I seem to have found a place where I'm not alone in seeing its monumental qualities. The peak of prog metal for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 08:05:05 PM
Yup. For the most part, TDFers LOVE their Awake.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 18, 2014, 08:06:58 PM
Welcome to DTF, where Awake is jerked off, Black Clouds is shat on, and DTXII has an extremely mixed consensus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucidity on April 18, 2014, 08:08:36 PM
Quote from: Grizz on April 18, 2014, 08:06:58 PM
Welcome to DTF, where Awake is jerked off, Black Clouds is shat on, and DTXII has an extremely mixed consensus.

Near as I can tell, DT12 has received like 90% adoration.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on April 18, 2014, 08:11:03 PM
DT12 is an interesting case. Honestly I don't really go out of my way to listen to most of the songs on the album anymore, though I know they're great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 08:11:59 PM
Quote from: Grizz on April 18, 2014, 08:06:58 PM
Black Clouds is shat on

Not nearly as much as SC.

And let's not forget Raw Dog, they should rename it to "Underaw Dog"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 08:12:18 PM
Quote from: Grizz on April 18, 2014, 08:06:58 PM
Black Clouds is shat on

It's an alright album, just rather directionless, and The Shattered Fortress isn't as inspired as it should have been. The Count of Tuscany is a fucking classic for me though, and the songs are at least all listenable (if overlong), whereas Falling into Infinity and Octavarium each have tracks I find dull.

Actually, considering the incredibly high standing Octavarium has in some circles, it'd probably be controversial for me to say I only particularly like its opening and closing songs. I much prefer the painfully underrated Systematic Chaos.

Dream Theater hasn't quite sunk in with me yet, but it's a good album, and I especially adore The Bigger Picture.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on April 18, 2014, 08:13:49 PM
Quote from: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 07:49:39 PM
I'm new, so be gentle, as it's my first time...  :hat

Awake is by far Dream Theater's greatest achievement. Not only is it their bravest, most experimental work (before their typical style and routine was solidified), but it is their clear masterpiece in terms of musical composition and lyrics. An incredible work of art, and whilst I rate Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as their other classics, it makes me sad that the band will never try anything as progressive as Awake again due to its poor reception in some circles.

Having said that, Images and Words is perhaps their most flawless album, and likely the most perfect album out there.
I never stop gushing over Awake. It's my favorite album ever by a wide margin. I think we're going to get along :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 18, 2014, 08:14:51 PM
As an apologist for Black Clouds, anti-theism, and the Atari 5200, I can't defend Systematic Chaos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 08:19:23 PM
Not even In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1? That song is badassery condensed in to wave form.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 08:38:41 PM
Systematic Chaos rules. One of DT's best, regardless of nay sayers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 18, 2014, 09:58:20 PM
I see a ton of hate for it, but I really like The Best of Times. The lyrics are clumsy, but seeing as it's Portnoy's genuine, heartfelt farewell to his dying father it's hard to really fault him for his honest feelings not being catchy enough.

Petrucci's solo at the end is soulful, and lifts the song to near-excellence. My second favourite from the album, behind The Count of Tuscany. Yes, it's hella cheesy, but I don't see how anybody could even be a DT fan, and not have developed a STRONG resistance to cheese. Scenes From a Memory was one of the cheesiest albums I'd heard up til then, but I still knew its majesty.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on April 19, 2014, 12:45:39 AM
I'm one of the few people who love BC&SL. Pretty much the only thing on the album I don't really like are the verses and bebot solo of AROP. That song has one of my favourite DT choruses ever though.
The Best of Times is very good indeed. It has my favourite JP guitar solo, which also happens to be my favourite guitar solo ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on April 19, 2014, 04:30:06 AM
BC&SL is their best album for me! And yes, The Best of Times' solo is Petrucci's best solo. And it is the most beautiful solo I have ever listened to. Used to be Randy Road's work on Mr. Crowley, but after I listened to The Best of Times, it really blew me away!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on April 19, 2014, 07:35:29 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 18, 2014, 08:38:41 PM
Systematic Chaos rules. One of DT's best, regardless of nay sayers.

This!

Interesting thing about DT12. I used to hate the album when it came out, and i still don't like it that much. I also used to say The Looking Glass was their worst song ever, now its my favourite from the album. It's a fun and simple song, perfect contrast to their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 19, 2014, 08:35:14 AM
I can't listen to the regular album because it's such a wall of sound, and I still haven't gotten around to acquiring the HD tracks.

But, new controversial opinion: I'm listening to JR's "Explorations" right now, and that stuff is pretty damn awesome. Add to how good he sounded on LMR, my controversial opinion is that I think his musical "heart" is outside DT these days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on April 19, 2014, 12:06:16 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on April 19, 2014, 04:30:06 AM
BC&SL is their best album for me!

That's a truly rare opinion. Sure, SC is most hated, but I've seen plenty of people say it's their favorite. BC&SL usually is in the awkward place where it's considered to just be bland and boring. Not often the worst, and never the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on April 19, 2014, 12:39:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 19, 2014, 08:35:14 AM
I can't listen to the regular album because it's such a wall of sound, and I still haven't gotten around to acquiring the HD tracks.

But, new controversial opinion: I'm listening to JR's "Explorations" right now, and that stuff is pretty damn awesome. Add to how good he sounded on LMR, my controversial opinion is that I think his musical "heart" is outside DT these days.

I have to agree with this. It seems to me that all the DT sound restrictions they have established have made JR just be ok with a very minimal experimentation, it feels like it's just his job and not much of a creative outlet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 19, 2014, 04:23:04 PM
Quote from: Onno on April 17, 2014, 02:06:43 AM
Here's another controversial (?) opinion. I started typing this post in the Opeth thread (we were discussing diversity) but it definitely belongs here.

I don't think DT's lastest few albums have been very diverse. SC and BC&SL were similar to each other. ADTOE and DT12 basically for me were just representations of the core DT sound, albeit two different sides of it. They didn't introduce anything new to me, except for the orchestral section on IT, Beneath the Surface and the intro to BITS.

If you start at WDADU and go forward in time, there's a huge variety of styles in DT's albums. I&W is a more refined, mature and proggy version of WDADU, where the band found the sound they were looking for and all the tiny flaws in songwriting were fixed. Awake is structured differently, is a lot darker and isn't standard prog at all IMO.
FII was a lot more simple and maybe commercial, and while not everyone likes it and most people don't like a few songs on it, the good songs on that album are truly great and add diversity to DT's catalogue.
SFAM was the band's first full-fledged concept album and it sounded more 'modern', while also in a way paying homage to classic prog. More diversity. SDOIT, IMO, is their most experimental album to date by a mile, and while being classic DT (especially the second disk), it discovers new ground while still being amazing. Heck, it's my favourite DT album.
ToT was like Awake in a way, because it was a lot darker and heavier than usual. However, it sounded a lot different from Awake; for example, while Awake had a very distinctive feature in JLB's epic vocals like I&W, ToT had some really good melodies but JLB sounds totally different. Of course, this is logical regarding the vocal chords incident, but it still makes a large difference. ToT is heavier than Awake, has fewer songs and different structures. Not all people like ToT, but again, it IS different.
Octavarium was basically a summation of most of the things DT had done before, with the modern sound of ToT and SFAM. In my opinion, that's also diversity. Why? Because, for example, the heavy songs (i.e. TROAE and PA) are not as dark and thus couldn't have really fitted on ToT. The shorter, more poppy songs, like IWBY and TALW, couldn't have fitted on FII either. The album is a summation of styles, but the songs fit together really well and all have some distinctive quality which makes them a bit different.
Now we arrive at SC. For me, SC was a bit of a mix of Octavarium and ToT. It was a heavy and dark album, but not as dark as ToT. Still, here's where the diversity begins to decline a bit for me. There are definitely some new ideas on this album (PoW, Repentance, CM) but not all of them work so well, and the overall sound of the album isn't that different from things they've done before. Still, I think the album is diverse and differs in some way from the previous albums, and I like the album.
BC&SL marked another slight decline in diversity. Again, it was pretty heavy and dark, but now the album was focused on long songs and lots of instrumental stuff. There aren't a lot of new ideas/concepts on this disk, but there are some: the volume swells in TCOT and MP's more prominent background vocals (which also were more prominent on SC, and which I think most people don't really like that much). Again, I like the album, but it just isn't that diverse as an album and it doesn't offer a very great deal of 'new' sounds or styles.
ADTOE for me marked a big decline in diversity. For me, the album basically marks a return to DT's familiar sound without sounding very dark or very heavy. Still, it absolutely sounds like DT. I don't really mind this album not being different; it is a good album, and hey, you have to stabilize a bit after you've just had a founding member leave, right?
However, I was very much disappointed when DT12 came out. For me, while it would seem like the album is very different from the rest of the discography, it is not. Yes, the songs are shorter, and more focused on choruses. Yes, there is a huge orchestral section in the epic. Yes, there is a sort of Easter Egg outro to that same epic. But still, in my opinion its sound isn't different from the rest of DT's discography at all. In my opinion, this is basically just another summation of DT's sound which started with Octavarium. SC, BC&SL, ADTOE and DT12 do not sound very different at all; maybe ADTOE is the odd one out here, but that's only because it's less dark and heavy than the rest.

Someone who had attended the listening parties for DT12, I don't remember who it was, said on this forum that DT12 sounded a bit like SC and BC&SL style mixed with I&W and Awake's shorter songs. That got me very excited. I love all of these albums. And in a way, it did sound like that. But it didn't sound like that in a way that I had expected, or rather, in a way that I hadn't expected. What do I mean by that? Well, I had expected something new, which still retained the DT core sound. In a way, I had expected DT12 to do something similar to what SDOIT had done, which was experimenting with new ideas while retaining the core sound. And with a new drummer, I had expected something new. Well, for me it wasn't.
While I agree on your general statement, I think the big decline in diversity started with SFAM onwards. Yes, there are changes, but nowhere near the differences you find on the I&W-Awake-FII run, the most diverse in the entire catalog. In Scenes, which is a back-to-I&W style with the fresh view of Rudess, they seem to have found their sound, and started to work everything from there. By the way, both Awake and FII are more modern than Scenes, or any DT album, not that it's necessarily a good or bad thing.
Going back to the changes, they started to change less and less on every album to the pinnacle being BC&SL and ADTOE for different reasons.

DT12 is an album where they achieved something they didn't achieve since Awake: writing shorter songs without sacrificing their progresive style. Every other time DT did that, was at the expense of their proggier side, most of the times it was short = straightforward(again, not that it is bad thing). Sure, no big changes here, but for me, the last big change was FII, the last surprising but not that big one was 6DOIT. All the others, while they incorporate new things to DT, they do it within the framework, so to speak, so I don't agree with ADTOE being a decline in the diversity department, and nor is DT12.
And by now, considering everything I said, I think that we won't see huge changes anymore, it's a common thing as band members get older, they find their zone and, considering how wild DT fans can get when they do change something(every new feature had screaming haters ever since I&W), I don't think they have a good reason to, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 04:54:59 PM
Having listened to DT12 again today, I must say that in my heart, it has achieved a "Classic Dream Theater Album" status already, which is something that ADTOE has yet to do.
When I listen to songs like The Bigger Picture, or Surrender to Reason, or any of the songs, on this album, there are moments where I'm like, "Oh man, I love this part!" in the exact same way that I would feel about a cool part in, say, Take The Time, or something on Awake, or SDOIT. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, DT12 is more of a classic album than ADTOE, and one of DT's best. How it's so polarizing, how someone can claim to be a DT fan, but hate this album, I can't even fathom.
My controversial opinion for the day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 05:25:59 PM
ADTOE and DT12 are both very sharp, strong albums, and I'd probably rate DT12 as my fifth favourite of the band's career, behind Awake, Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, which are the four classics.

I think the band felt increasingly directionless and meandering with the later Portnoy albums, and the Mangini albums have seen an increased sense of focus. For many songs on Black Clouds, it feels like nobody is behind the wheel, whereas DT12 has clear drive. I don't get the hate.

It helps that LaBrie sounds fucking incredible on DT12., whereas he's underwhelming on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 05:49:26 PM
Quote from: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 05:25:59 PM
It helps that LaBrie sounds fucking incredible on DT12., whereas he's underwhelming on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds

If you ask me, James sounds better on Systematic Chaos than he did on the past 2 albums, or at least, his vocals were more interesting. But that's a matter of compositions themselves, rather than his personal ability. He's definitely stronger now than he was in early to mid 2000s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 05:51:26 PM
Underwhelming LaBrie is still more interesting than most singers out there. Unless he's trying to be Matt Bellamy.

DT12 his his most impressive turn since Awake, I reckon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 05:51:26 PM
Underwhelming LaBrie is still more interesting than most singers out there. Unless he's trying to be Matt Bellamy.

DT12 are his most impressive since Awake, I reckon.

I wouldn't go that far. Maybe the BEST parts of DT12, like second half of Illumination Theory, yes, but all in all, most of the vocals on DT12 were pretty standard for LaBrie. Much better than ADTOE, but nothing extremely impressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 06:02:52 PM
I found there to be more passion in his voice during tracks like The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory, than in the previous batch of albums. Helped draw me in to the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on April 20, 2014, 06:06:08 PM
His voice was really good on The Bigger Picture. But ADTOE was dripping with passion as well! Look at Far From Heaven, On the Backs of Angels, Beneath the Surface.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 06:08:40 PM
He's good on that album. Just not DT12-level. :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 06:09:11 PM
Quote from: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 06:02:52 PM
I found there to be more passion in his voice during tracks like The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory, than in the previous batch of albums. Helped draw me in to the music.

I thought there was plenty of passion in SC. Different kind of passion. More like, badass, metal passion. That "Don't bother drying to find him," section from ITPOE2, is one of the best examples.
DT12 overall, had much more of that classic major sound, with very introspective lyrics, so it was a different kind of vibe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 06:17:23 PM
Didn't mean to sound so negative. I like every DT album to a certain extent (even if I rate Images and Words/Awake high above the rest), and Systematic Chaos still gets a fair few plays.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 06:26:43 PM
Black Clouds is definitely one album that I would say lacked a typical level of enthusiasm from James.  (hypothetically) If he happened to go on record to say that he was resentful of Portnoy for his vocal contributions undermining James' position in the band, at that time, I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever. I don't think it was that extreme of a case in James' mind, but I kind of felt that way at the time. Around that time, someone posted a stupid fake Youtube video that said, "James LaBrie quits Dream Theater" (if someone on here made it, no offense), and the second I read it, I was like, "Oh fuck... Well, somehow I'm not surprised." But I was greatly relieved when I realized it wasn't true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 20, 2014, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 20, 2014, 04:54:59 PM
Having listened to DT12 again today, I must say that in my heart, it has achieved a "Classic Dream Theater Album" status already, which is something that ADTOE has yet to do.
When I listen to songs like The Bigger Picture, or Surrender to Reason, or any of the songs, on this album, there are moments where I'm like, "Oh man, I love this part!" in the exact same way that I would feel about a cool part in, say, Take The Time, or something on Awake, or SDOIT. So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, DT12 is more of a classic album than ADTOE, and one of DT's best. How it's so polarizing, how someone can claim to be a DT fan, but hate this album, I can't even fathom.
My controversial opinion for the day.
While I love DT12 as much as you do, I think it's perfectly possible for any fan of any band to hate any song from that band, especially if it's Dream Theater. This album happens to be very melodic(especially the second half), so if you just happen not to like those melodies, you won't like the songs. Simple. And the fact that it's so polarizing it's an indication that they did do something different here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 20, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
I don't think DT12 even has JLB's best vocals out of his albums released in 2013. His vocals are utilized much better on Impermanent Resonance imo. DT12 has the high section of IT (which is awesome), and that's about it for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 20, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
I love DT's melodic side, but I don't think the execution of the melodies quite worked well on DTXII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 20, 2014, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: Grizz on April 20, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
I love DT's melodic side, but I don't think the execution of the melodies quite worked well on DTXII.
Agreed. ADTOE has more memorable and interesting melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:20:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 20, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
I don't think DT12 even has JLB's best vocals out of his albums released in 2013. His vocals are utilized much better on Impermanent Resonance imo. DT12 has the high section of IT (which is awesome), and that's about it for me.

I agree, but I still think his vocal melodies on DT12 were a huge improvement over the past 2 albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:28:56 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:20:57 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 20, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
I don't think DT12 even has JLB's best vocals out of his albums released in 2013. His vocals are utilized much better on Impermanent Resonance imo. DT12 has the high section of IT (which is awesome), and that's about it for me.

I agree, but I still think his vocal melodies on DT12 were a huge improvement over the past 2 albums.

I'd say ADTOE's vocals were a slight improvement over BCASL, and DT12's vocals were a slight improvement over that, but middle of IT aside, I don't think any of them showcase just how good his voice has been during these more recent years. As LALP shows, his voice is in impressive form.

And I'm not just talking about high melodies. I'd like to hear more difficult melodies, and more expressiveness and emotion. I think SDOIT probably does that the best out of the "modern" DT albums, and that was arguably his lowest point in terms of vocal strength.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:37:50 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:28:56 AM
I'd say ADTOE's vocals were a slight improvement over BCASL, and DT12's vocals were a slight improvement over that, but middle of IT aside, I don't think any of them showcase just how good his voice has been during these more recent years. As LALP shows, his voice is in impressive form.

They were an improvement, but the still left me quite a bit underwhelmed. With DT12, it was a big step in the right direction and actually left me more optimistic about what we'll hear from JLB on the next album. Especially since (if I remember correctly) JP listed Impermanent Resonance as one of his top 10 albums of 2013. Maybe he'll take note from it, next time around.


Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:28:56 AM
And I'm not just talking about high melodies. I'd like to hear more difficult melodies, and more expressiveness and emotion. I think SDOIT probably does that the best out of the "modern" DT albums, and that was arguably his lowest point in terms of vocal strength.

Well, you're a SDOIT fanboy, so of course you'd say that.  :lol

I wouldn't say it does it best overall, but there are definitely quite a few shining examples on it. Misunderstood has always stood out to me as a song that wasn't extremely difficult to sing, yet still a lot of fun, because of its vocal melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:45:22 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:37:50 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:28:56 AM
And I'm not just talking about high melodies. I'd like to hear more difficult melodies, and more expressiveness and emotion. I think SDOIT probably does that the best out of the "modern" DT albums, and that was arguably his lowest point in terms of vocal strength.

Well, you're a SDOIT fanboy, so of course you'd say that.  :lol

And that makes my opinion less valid? There are many legitimate reasons SDOIT is DT's best album to me, the excellent vocal melodies and emotional delivery being one of them. :)
I don't think any DT album since has had such consistently strong vocals (although many have had moments that are better), and yet his voice has only dramatically improved ever since then. Maybe having a vocal coach changed his technique or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:55:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 02:45:22 AM
And that makes my opinion less valid? There are many legitimate reasons SDOIT is DT's best album to me, the excellent vocal melodies and emotional delivery being one of them. :)
I don't think any DT album since has had such consistently strong vocals (although many have had moments that are better), and yet his voice has only dramatically improved ever since then. Maybe having a vocal coach changed his technique or something.

I'm not saying your opinion is less valid, I'm just saying that if I were to ask that question, that's the answer I'd expect from you.

Personally, I think SDOIT has had a good bit of both, strong and emotional vocals, and bland, phoned in vocals. Depends on the moments you look at. And opinions, of course.
I'm just saying, I can't say, "Oh, SDOIT had such strong and amazing performances. Everything since has been mediocre."

Obviously there are going to be songs he's more passionate about, and takes more interest in, and other songs that he has to kind of force that passion, or rely on his technique. And I think every album has examples of both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:02:49 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 02:55:28 AM
I'm just saying, I can't say, "Oh, SDOIT had such strong and amazing performances. Everything since has been mediocre."

I never said that either! I just said that overall I think SDOIT is his strongest vocal performance. And I think the last few have been his weaker performances. I don't mean those as blanket statements in any way. Every DT album has its share of great and not as great vocal sections.
Even though SC also had plenty that didn't work to JLB's strengths, I felt a lot more emotion from him singing about dark masters than I do for recent songs where I really should have felt it, such as the ballads.

It's ok, we're in the right thread for me to safely say that. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tim van Duijn on April 21, 2014, 03:02:55 AM
Well, i'm not a big fan of DT12 myself. I like the songs but they hyped it way too much for me ('strongest work to date, best album we did'). And i expected a little bit more from the so called 'big 20 minute epic' (and don't get me wrong please i really like Illumination Theory, but i expected something different).

To me the songs on A Dramatic Turn of Events are more exciting than any of the songs on DT12. Breaking All Illusions is one of my favorite Dream Theater pieces ever and i also love Beneath The Surface + the mixing was way better.

What i want is for Dream Theater to be happy with what they write and if they want to write shorter songs, that is fine with me (then i am happy). However, i think every fan wants them to progress like they did in the early years. Don't stay in the comfort zone. Do something we don't expect, do something experimental, don't give a shit about commercial success (you will get it anyway). Please create pieces that will make me leave the venue speechless. Please create mindblowing vocal melodies, epic choruses, climaxes, guitar solo's, awesome drum work that DT is known for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 03:10:36 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:02:49 AM
I never said that either! I just said that overall I think SDOIT is his strongest vocal performance. And I think the last few have been his weaker performances. I don't mean those as blanket statements in any way. Every DT album has its share of great and not as great vocal sections.
Even though SC also had plenty that didn't work to JLB's strengths, I felt a lot more emotion from him singing about dark masters than I do for recent songs where I really should have felt it, such as the ballads.

It's ok, we're in the right thread for me to safely say that. :lol

Well, they don't write songs about "Dark Master" type stuff very often, so I imagine it was a lot of fun for him to do stuff like that. Frankly (and I'm sure this is another controversial opinion) I want to see more DT lyrics about pure fictional stories with fantasy elements like on SC, or even talking about occult stuff. Those who prefer lyrics about life, and philosophy, and being introspective, well, they get their fill with almost every DT album. Let us old school Heavy Metal and fantasy nerds have something fun!  :metal


Quote from: Tim van Duijn on April 21, 2014, 03:02:55 AM
Well, i'm not a big fan of DT12 myself. I like the songs but they hyped it way too much for me ('strongest work to date, best album we did'). And i expected a little bit more from the so called 'big 20 minute epic' (and don't get me wrong please i really like Illumination Theory, but i expected something different).

Okay, but you really need to take those kinds of statements with a grain of salt. If I was expecting their new album to top SFAM for me, then I'd be disappointed too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:22:19 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 03:10:36 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:02:49 AM
I never said that either! I just said that overall I think SDOIT is his strongest vocal performance. And I think the last few have been his weaker performances. I don't mean those as blanket statements in any way. Every DT album has its share of great and not as great vocal sections.
Even though SC also had plenty that didn't work to JLB's strengths, I felt a lot more emotion from him singing about dark masters than I do for recent songs where I really should have felt it, such as the ballads.

It's ok, we're in the right thread for me to safely say that. :lol

Well, they don't write songs about "Dark Master" type stuff very often, so I imagine it was a lot of fun for him to do stuff like that. Frankly (and I'm sure this is another controversial opinion) I want to see more DT lyrics about pure fictional stories with fantasy elements like on SC, or even talking about occult stuff. Those who prefer lyrics about life, and philosophy, and being introspective, well, they get their fill with almost every DT album. Let us old school Heavy Metal and fantasy nerds have something fun!  :metal

I don't have a problem with the life/inspirational lyrics either, but I think they've done plenty enough of it recently. I'd like to have JR write some totally spaced-out lyrics, something in the vein of UAGM. He could do it. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 03:26:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:22:19 AM
I don't have a problem with the life/inspirational lyrics either, but I think they've done plenty enough of it recently. I'd like to have JR write some totally spaced-out lyrics, something in the vein of UAGM. He could do it. :hat
I wouldn't hold my breath.  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:40:05 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 03:26:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:22:19 AM
I don't have a problem with the life/inspirational lyrics either, but I think they've done plenty enough of it recently. I'd like to have JR write some totally spaced-out lyrics, something in the vein of UAGM. He could do it. :hat
I wouldn't hold my breath.  :-\

Neither would I. I don't think JR has any desire to write lyrics for DT, and if he isn't inspired to, I wouldn't want him to do it.

But I would like the lyrical duties more evenly split between JP/JLB/JM. In the case of DT12, JLB had already contributed many lyrics to his solo album, which is why he didn't write any this time around, and JM has never written a lot of lyrics for the sake of it. He carefully crafts his lyrics when he's inspired to, plus his recent contributions have been aided by JP, so it still puts load on JP.

Which is why I'd be interested to hear some lyrics penned by JR, although I don't expect him to change his mind.
I don't know if MM has ever written lyrics, but that's something I'd be interested in too! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaiseTheKnife on April 21, 2014, 04:15:58 AM
I read some JR lyrics from an earlier solo album, and well, let's just say my socks are still firmly on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 21, 2014, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on April 20, 2014, 05:25:59 PM
ADTOE and DT12 are both very sharp, strong albums, and I'd probably rate DT12 as my fifth favourite of the band's career, behind Awake, Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, which are the four classics.

I think the band felt increasingly directionless and meandering with the later Portnoy albums, and the Mangini albums have seen an increased sense of focus. For many songs on Black Clouds, it feels like nobody is behind the wheel, whereas DT12 has clear drive. I don't get the hate.

It helps that LaBrie sounds fucking incredible on DT12., whereas he's underwhelming on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds

While I like ADTOE more than DT12, I agree with much of this. 

There are definitely some moments on SC and BC&SL where I thought JLB could have given a much stronger performance.  His sounds like he barely even tried to sing the final section of ITPOE2 (the "I do not fiii-iight for you" line, for example, sounds so limp), and while I like The Best of Times quite a bit, a lot of his vocals in that song sound phoned in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on April 21, 2014, 12:58:04 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:40:05 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 03:26:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 21, 2014, 03:22:19 AM
I don't have a problem with the life/inspirational lyrics either, but I think they've done plenty enough of it recently. I'd like to have JR write some totally spaced-out lyrics, something in the vein of UAGM. He could do it. :hat
I wouldn't hold my breath.  :-\

Neither would I. I don't think JR has any desire to write lyrics for DT, and if he isn't inspired to, I wouldn't want him to do it.

But I would like the lyrical duties more evenly split between JP/JLB/JM. In the case of DT12, JLB had already contributed many lyrics to his solo album, which is why he didn't write any this time around, and JM has never written a lot of lyrics for the sake of it. He carefully crafts his lyrics when he's inspired to, plus his recent contributions have been aided by JP, so it still puts load on JP.

Which is why I'd be interested to hear some lyrics penned by JR, although I don't expect him to change his mind.
I don't know if MM has ever written lyrics, but that's something I'd be interested in too! :lol
I actually would like James to write more, he seems a nice contrast with JP in terms of writing and adds variety. And if someone can write spaced-out UAGM type of lyrics, that's definetely JP, not JR. I loved when he used to just paint great pictures with words(Voices, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, Misunderstood).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tis BOOLsheet on April 21, 2014, 04:58:48 PM
Quote from: Tim van Duijn on April 21, 2014, 03:02:55 AM
Well, i'm not a big fan of DT12 myself. I like the songs but they hyped it way too much for me ('strongest work to date, best album we did'). And i expected a little bit more from the so called 'big 20 minute epic' (and don't get me wrong please i really like Illumination Theory, but i expected something different).

To me the songs on A Dramatic Turn of Events are more exciting than any of the songs on DT12. Breaking All Illusions is one of my favorite Dream Theater pieces ever and i also love Beneath The Surface + the mixing was way better.

What i want is for Dream Theater to be happy with what they write and if they want to write shorter songs, that is fine with me (then i am happy). However, i think every fan wants them to progress like they did in the early years. Don't stay in the comfort zone. Do something we don't expect, do something experimental, don't give a shit about commercial success (you will get it anyway). Please create pieces that will make me leave the venue speechless. Please create mindblowing vocal melodies, epic choruses, climaxes, guitar solo's, awesome drum work that DT is known for.

I love when some fans say stuff like this. Shows you how completely out of touch some people are with the business and the fact that the members have staked their livelihoods and the fortunes of their families on this enterprise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on April 21, 2014, 06:57:21 PM
BC&SL is a beautiful album with metal and prog stuff.  And The best of times is a great song with maybe simple lyrics but true ones from Mike to his father.  I can't listen to that track without being moved by it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 21, 2014, 07:00:09 PM
It's Dream Theater. Every album of theirs is beautiful in its own way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 01:27:03 PM
Controversial opinion time!

Soooo, I was actually debating whether to even bring this up, because for sure there will be strong emotions either side. But, here it goes...

What's everybody's interpretation of the DTF post stats? In case you've never seen them (and I hadn't until yesterday when someone pointed them out to me), they're here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=stats
Because I'm a geek and I needed a break at work, I also created a quick graph (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_stats_zps8b21d80a.png).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 30, 2014, 01:32:25 PM
So the celeb crush thread is one of the top 10 topics with most views... :zydar:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on April 30, 2014, 01:35:30 PM
I now understand better why Blob is a Blob.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 30, 2014, 01:50:24 PM
404 message on the graph :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 01:55:15 PM
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_stats_zps8b21d80a.png)

Do you see this graph?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2014, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on April 21, 2014, 06:57:21 PM
  And The best of times is a great song with maybe simple lyrics but true ones from Mike to his father.  I can't listen to that track without being moved by it.

I completely agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 30, 2014, 02:08:36 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 01:55:15 PM
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_stats_zps8b21d80a.png)

Do you see this graph?


Nope. Now I think it's my work's network blocking it. Weird because I've never gotten a 404 message from these filters. Oh well I'll see it at home.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on April 30, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
Rumbo, can you clarify what's on the y axis exactly? Also, before drawing any conclusion, what's the reduced chi square of the fit? How exactly did you choose the binning size and why? Wouldn't decreasing it imcrease the information without losing statistics too much?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 04:33:33 PM
The y axis is posts per month. And I didn't choose binning, the bin is called "month". :lol
I really just copy-pasted the data from the DTF stats section over into a text file, and plotted it.
So, you can see the big bump for ADTOE, and the (surprisingly) small one for DT12. Well, and that pretty steady decline overall which I thought everybody was going to immediately jump on, but apparently not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2014, 04:43:53 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 04:33:33 PM
  Well, and that pretty steady decline overall which I thought everybody was going to immediately jump on, but apparently not.
I saw and understood that. I just wasn't sure where to go with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 30, 2014, 04:58:44 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 04:33:33 PM
The y axis is posts per month. And I didn't choose binning, the bin is called "month". :lol
I really just copy-pasted the data from the DTF stats section over into a text file, and plotted it.
So, you can see the big bump for ADTOE, and the (surprisingly) small one for DT12. Well, and that pretty steady decline overall which I thought everybody was going to immediately jump on, but apparently not.

Well, I feel like the bump for each album release is at a pretty consistent ratio with the amount around it. So if you got rid of them, the overall post counts are declining, right? So let's say when ADTOE came out, there was 200% more posts that month, than the months around it, I would say it's about the same ratio with DT12. So it's not the album itself that drew less attention on these forums, it's DT overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 30, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
I guess it means DT12 really is shit and we should shut the forum down.


Oh wait, there are still people here who despise DT and are just here for the community. Hey, maybe we could create a new forum and those who aren't DT fans can still shoot the shit, and the remaining fans can have the old forum to themselves. I don't think this has happened before. I'm a genius.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 30, 2014, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 30, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
I guess it means DT12 really is shit and we should shut the forum down.


Oh wait, there are still people here who despise DT and are just here for the community. Hey, maybe we could create a new forum and those who aren't DT fans can still shoot the shit, and the remaining fans can have the old forum to themselves. I don't think this has happened before. I'm a genius.

Yeah, but those people who aren't here for DT wouldn't really contribute to the post spikes around the times of DT's albums coming out, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 30, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
There was a big spike during ADTOE because of MP's departure and MM joining.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 30, 2014, 05:18:50 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 30, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
There was a big spike during ADTOE because of MP's departure and MM joining.

And 6 months after DT12's release, the post count has been basically cut in half compared to 6 months after BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on April 30, 2014, 05:22:00 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 01:55:15 PM
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_stats_zps8b21d80a.png)

Saw this posted somewhere else, but Google trend of "Dream Theater" searches. Looks familiar.

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/8343863783917cee79dc78e2c92b35f3/tumblr_n4va6fafk91qgg53uo1_1280.png)

Also lol Indonesia.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 30, 2014, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 30, 2014, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: Zook on April 30, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
I guess it means DT12 really is shit and we should shut the forum down.


Oh wait, there are still people here who despise DT and are just here for the community. Hey, maybe we could create a new forum and those who aren't DT fans can still shoot the shit, and the remaining fans can have the old forum to themselves. I don't think this has happened before. I'm a genius.

Yeah, but those people who aren't here for DT wouldn't really contribute to the post spikes around the times of DT's albums coming out, right?

I think so. DT is still talked about on 5/8 during album release. Not saying it's good talk...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 30, 2014, 05:26:26 PM
So are we to assume that DT is declining in popularity?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on April 30, 2014, 05:27:27 PM
It seems that way. It doesn't affect me, though. I still think they are a fine band regardless of their popularity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 30, 2014, 05:38:54 PM
If only they took that break...

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on April 30, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Media frenzy explains the 2011 spike. I think some of these stats can represent some of their public attention and activity, it's also possible, dare I say it that there might have been a gradual drop of some fans that had immense loyalty to MP. But I don't know if we can correlate this to popularity. Because being on the radar, and being known, aren't really the same thing. And I think it would seem, that DT are more known than they ever have been, and that their fanbase is also as big as it's ever been. I don't know how we could determine that with certainty though so consider this view unfounded.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 30, 2014, 05:58:29 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on April 30, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Media frenzy explains the 2011 spike. I think some of these stats can represent some of their public attention and activity, it's also possible, dare I say it that there might have been a gradual drop of some fans that had immense loyalty to MP. But I don't know if we can correlate this to popularity. Because being on the radar, and being known, aren't really the same thing. And I think it would seem, that DT are more known than they ever have been, and that their fanbase is also as big as it's ever been. I don't know how we could determine that with certainty though so consider this view unfounded.  :lol

See, I agree with that, which is why the chart is so confusing to me. They seem like more of a household name than they've been circa 2003 - 2007 era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kneepel on April 30, 2014, 07:54:10 PM
Alright, in before I get lynched lol:

Illumination Theory is their weakest epic and weakest song on DT12 before AFTR.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on April 30, 2014, 08:41:46 PM
Weakest epic? I don't agree, but I can see why someone would say that.

Weakest on DT12? Now that's pretty controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 09:01:58 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on April 30, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Media frenzy explains the 2011 spike. I think some of these stats can represent some of their public attention and activity, it's also possible, dare I say it that there might have been a gradual drop of some fans that had immense loyalty to MP. But I don't know if we can correlate this to popularity. Because being on the radar, and being known, aren't really the same thing. And I think it would seem, that DT are more known than they ever have been, and that their fanbase is also as big as it's ever been. I don't know how we could determine that with certainty though so consider this view unfounded.  :lol

I think that's the interesting dichotomy. I would agree that DT are more known than ever, but the fact that interest seems to be waning (and I can certainly say that of my circle of DT friends, I'm the last man standing) may mean that they penetrated their market completely. That is, everybody knows them, but that still doesn't mean everybody likes them. And in fact, fewer people like them over time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on April 30, 2014, 09:26:08 PM
Almost every person I've turned onto DT became a huge fan for some time. Eventually that interest died out. I think that's what happens with most of DT's fans. There are tons of lifelong fans here, but in the general populace, there seems to be a shelf life to their interest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 09:42:51 PM
Ticket prices have also gone down. In 2012 I saw them for $85, whereas the super-special Boston show recently went for $56.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Infinite Cactus on April 30, 2014, 09:51:57 PM
I definitely get the bit about the shelf life. My group of friends loved DT and got me into them almost ten years ago. Me and one other guy in that group of say 12 people are the only ones who have kept up after Systematic Chaos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on April 30, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
I guess I should also qualify that this is a common phenomenon with anything at all really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 10:07:23 PM
My friends stopped being interested about after ToT, and I gotta be honest, that's where the "long stretch" started for me too. Albums went from "mostly awesome" to "a few good songs", and that's kinda where it's at for me these days. Hadn't it been for the DTF community I probably would have stopped listening altogether quite a while ago.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 30, 2014, 10:08:19 PM
Interesting graph. Anyone want to extrapolate those peaks and predict the point where DT will apparently be playing bingo halls? In a couple of years you'll either be hailed as a prog Nostrodamus, or seen as useless as the real Nostrodamus! :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:04:00 AM
Keep in mind that's a graph of message board usage, not a graph of being a fan. The Google one, meanwhile, shows a drop between Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, which we know for a fact does not represent the greater fanbase - so what are they really measuring?

It's more likely that message boards are dying. People are going to Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr - when you want to have a discussion about Dream Theater, you don't type "dream theater" into Google and see if there's any cool communities, you just launch your favourite app and start talking about Dream Theater - myself included! The minute DT12 came out, I fucked off for five months, my initial reactions are all on Twitter, and Facebook chat. We're living in an age where the discussion comes to us. There's still a place for message boards, but they're ever more niche.

There's an interesting conversation to be had, but it's one about how we curate online narratives. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:07:15 AM
Quote from: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?

Me. It's awful. Terrible lyrics, phoned in vocals, generic riffing etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:11:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:07:15 AM
Quote from: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM
Quote from: Pols Voice on December 18, 2012, 12:13:09 AM
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?

Me. It's awful. Terrible lyrics, phoned in vocals, generic riffing etc.

 :omg: :omg: :omg: :omg: *goes to bed crying*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:13:37 AM
[/completelynontopicrelated]

Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:04:00 AM
I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

It was definitely more fun than IV and V depite those being video game blockbuster juggernauts that were technically more advanced, I still rekon SA was the pinnacle of fun GTA games.


Anyway, yeah sorry, Lie might almost be KMs worst effort.  :justjen It's kinda fun wordplay but I can't take it very seriously. (although maybe that was the idea ).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:18:12 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:13:37 AM
[/completelynontopicrelated]

Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:04:00 AM
I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

It was definitely more fun than IV and V depite the former two being video game blockbuster juggernauts that were technically more advanced, I still rekon SA was the pinnacle of fun GTA games.
Of course it was. As great as Lie.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:21:49 AM
I dunno if Lie could hold my attention for as long as GTA:SA.. I'd probably have been driven insane if I tried to make it last that long.. OR it'd make me love it finally? :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:25:53 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:28:10 AM
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:28:34 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:25:53 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:29:19 AM
You guys are making me feel crazy. It's 04:26 AM here and it's cold. I'm going to sleep.  See ya guys.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GPedrosa on May 01, 2014, 01:31:30 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:28:10 AM
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE
Holy crap. This is good. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on May 01, 2014, 01:31:54 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:28:10 AM
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE
:mehlin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:38:58 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:28:34 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:25:53 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!

I think it might have been legal before you added that last part. But you know, whatever you want to enhance the experience.  :P

Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:28:10 AM
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE

 :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:40:05 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:38:58 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:28:34 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:25:53 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!

I think it might have been legal before you added that last part. But you know, whatever you want to enhance the experience.  :P

:lol It's the only part of the experience I'm looking forward to! :zydar:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:59:17 AM
Quote

:lol It's the only part of the experience I'm looking forward to! :zydar:

Haha, you might not need that sort of encouragement, it's probably too distracting  :eek. But if it makes you realise what a masterpiece SA is then I'm all for it. And let me know how you feel about Lie afterwards..

Nah.. just jenkin ya, I wouldn't even try and make someone listen to it once let alone on repeat, I mean there's a limit. ;) 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on May 01, 2014, 02:05:58 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 09:42:51 PM
Ticket prices have also gone down. In 2012 I saw them for $85, whereas the super-special Boston show recently went for $56.

I paid 46€ in 2012 and 52€ in 2014.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 01:04:00 AM
Keep in mind that's a graph of message board usage, not a graph of being a fan. The Google one, meanwhile, shows a drop between Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, which we know for a fact does not represent the greater fanbase - so what are they really measuring?

It's more likely that message boards are dying. People are going to Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr - when you want to have a discussion about Dream Theater, you don't type "dream theater" into Google and see if there's any cool communities, you just launch your favourite app and start talking about Dream Theater - myself included! The minute DT12 came out, I fucked off for five months, my initial reactions are all on Twitter, and Facebook chat. We're living in an age where the discussion comes to us. There's still a place for message boards, but they're ever more niche.

There's an interesting conversation to be had, but it's one about how we curate online narratives. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

There's definitely that aspect, but I don't think you can ascribe all the downward trend to it. The Google Trend graph really shows the same picture,  and bands like Porcupine Tree did not see the downward trend (they do now since they essentially disbanded, but up until then Google Trends was steady for them).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 09:47:33 AM
Again, though - that's not representing how many people like them, it's how many people are searching for them - more likely to be rate of growth than size of fanbase. I'm trying to work out exactly what data we're gathering. Is it just the phrase dream theater, those exact words, or is it any search string containing the words Dream Theater?

I put in dream theater tour dates --

(https://i58.tinypic.com/2afebkl.jpg)

-- and it looks like it only pulls up results from the exact string. I think it's interesting data, just not quite sure what exactly we're looking at, and what - if anything, other than Google searches - it's actually measuring!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
Google Trends looks for exact string matches, yeah. But, I'm pretty sure that if you search "dream theater discography", that will show up in the "dream theater" trend too. It's just not the other way around, e.g. a search for "I have a dream" won't count towards DT.

Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 09:47:33 AM
Again, though - that's not representing how many people like them, it's how many people are searching for them - more likely to be rate of growth than size of fanbase.

I think what it shows is how many people are interested in them, in the sense of trying to find out information about them. I can see the argument that message boards are a dying form of communication, but I don't buy the argument that people stop using Google for the things they are interested in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 10:22:39 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 10:06:35 AM
I can see the argument that message boards are a dying form of communication, but I don't buy the argument that people stop using Google for the things they are interested in.
Good, I'd hope not, nor would I! But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much! More specific.

Case in point --

(https://i61.tinypic.com/dq215v.jpg)

Muse weren't tiny in 2004, Absolution made a splash, but they weren't enormous, either. They'd played my town hall just three years hence - and three years later, they'd be playing Wembley Arena. They engorged, but that graph just shows a steady three year loop. I think it's more likely to represent steady growth than no real growth.

I would add that Google is no longer the only way that people look for things. Don't get me wrong, I agree, Google is still pretty much the beating heart of the internet, people haven't stopped using it, but it's less crucial to the way we engage with banal data. Five years ago I'd have Googled "Forsaken lyrics," now I'll click the "find lyrics" button in MediaMonkey.  Lots of people have been working very hard to beam data directly into our pockets.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 11:05:15 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 10:22:39 AM
But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much!

I think the important distinction here is, not everybody is a fan. I agree, actual fans will have other ways of keeping up with their favorite bands. I think what Google Trends is showing are the casual person interested in Dream Theater. I definitely find myself googling Muse, Daft Punk or whatever, every time I learn that they did something new.

And even if, again, other bands don't show that *overall* decline. Your Muse graph, IMO, looks reasonably steady in its baseline. More telling I would say, check out A7X's graph: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35
I think no matter how you slice it, DT is increasingly failing to mobilize the interest of casual fans. And that pretty much coincides with my personal experience. I still follow them, but none of my friends who used to follow DT are still doing so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on May 01, 2014, 11:08:40 AM
Sure is a lot of confirmation bias in this thread  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 11:13:09 AM
Probably, on both sides, yeah :lol

I feel I'm drawing in more data though. The way it stands, DT's Google Trends graph is the odd one out (and is corroborated by DTF's posting stats), whereas rob's hypothesis of "expected googling decline" doesn't seem to hold water with other bands' trend graphs. Bands like A7X maintain a steady (or even increasing) number of search queries. So does Steven Wilson.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
Steven Wilson didn't exist as a solo musician until Insurgentes in 2009, so of course he's gone up, and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

I agree something's reducing, I just don't think the Google Trends Graph is quite the fanometer you're suggesting. Doctor Who's TV ratings are sinking, but it's got nothing to do with popularity, and everything to do with the way people are consuming television - on iPlayer, it breaks record after record.

I'm sure I'm coming at this from a robwebster angle, but I don't think it's unscientific to go, "Hold up, how valid is that data, really?" rather than taking it as a direct feed from the interweb hive-mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 11:53:47 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35

o_O?

That seems somewhat over-extrapolating it. Most of 2010-now is dominated by album spike+drop cycles, so it's hard to tell where the baseline is. When looking at the whole thing together, I would say they're at least holding steady, if not rising. In fact, when you take the low points to be the baseline, the lowest points have been on a steady rise. Very different to this: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35%2C%20dream%20theater&cmpt=q
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 12:05:53 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 11:53:47 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35

o_O?

That seems somewhat over-extrapolating it. Most of 2010-now is dominated by album spike+drop cycles, so it's hard to tell where the baseline is. When looking at the whole thing together, I would say they're at least holding steady, if not rising. In fact, when you take the low points to be the baseline, the lowest points have been on a steady rise. Very different to this: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35%2C%20dream%20theater&cmpt=q

(https://i59.tinypic.com/2wfo683.jpg)

Come on, man! But do you think they're shedding their fanbase over that period?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 01, 2014, 12:10:34 PM
Of course they are.  Album and concert ticket sales mean nothing.  It's all about the Googles, man.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 01, 2014, 12:12:13 PM
I can't believe it hasn't dropped off farther after Hail To The King was released...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on May 01, 2014, 12:29:39 PM
I think the Google trend data might be a better assessment of the rate at which a band is accruing new fans. Not the overall number of fans they have. Once you're a fan of the band and have looked at their website or twitter/fb page or whatever, there's literally no reason to type that band's name by itself into Google. I haven't searched for DT since like 2006. In terms of overall popularity though... in my city their most recent show was in a venue twice the size of their previous one so looks like things are going pretty well!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 01:41:34 PM
I find it interesting that the search terms derive form fairly different types of searches, meaning the information people are looking for in their searches differs for each band, for example, the top search terms for A7X are: avenged, sevenfold, avenged sevenfold, a7x, avenged sevenfold lyrics, nightmare avenged, avenged sevenfold dear god, avenged sevenfold download .

Where as the top DT searches are: dream theater download, album dream theatre, youtube dream theatre, dream theater live, mp3 dream theatre, dream theater torrent, dream theater tab, dream theater tour, dream theater drummer.

Seems like A7X terms are inquiring about songs and lyrics where as the DT searches imply that a lot more musicians, pirates and Europeans are looking them up.  :lol Also, there's no specific songs in the top searches, but rather a more general search for albums. Interestingly, the rising searches for DT are 'facebook, octavarium and wiki' where as the rising searches for A7X are 'nightmare, dear god, lagu', then more various 'nightmare' searches. They're totally stuck in a nightmare loop. But then after Hail To The King I'm not surprised people are pretending it didn't happen.. Okay now I'm getting too pompous but come on, HttK was a bit of let down.

The 2010 Spike was not long after the Rev died, and right during the release period of the much anticipated Nightmare album. Looks like they're on a decline at this point as far as google trends go, even if the baseline has been pushed a bit higher, this is most likely from the search trends skyrocketing after an event such as a band member dying. Which is probably a much bigger deal than a band member leaving.

I think google is as big as it's ever been and yet seeming not used as much these days because of changing technology, increased use of social networks etc. I wonder if there's a trend to represent that?

EDIT: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=google

Yeah, who knows what that means, despite the constant increase in searches, it's been on the decline since October last year. I draw from this that google must be on it's last legs and if they don't up their game they're going under.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 01, 2014, 02:37:04 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol
Quote from: Douglas Adams
Why don't you push off, you crudfaced old bat?

---


Quote from: rumborak on April 30, 2014, 09:42:51 PM
Ticket prices have also gone down. In 2012 I saw them for $85, whereas the super-special Boston show recently went for $56.
2012 was a real spike stateside. I've complained about this before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 01, 2014, 03:12:28 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 11:05:15 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 01, 2014, 10:22:39 AM
But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much!

I think the important distinction here is, not everybody is a fan. I agree, actual fans will have other ways of keeping up with their favorite bands. I think what Google Trends is showing are the casual person interested in Dream Theater. I definitely find myself googling Muse, Daft Punk or whatever, every time I learn that they did something new.

Hence the spikes. But I do agree with rumbroak, now that he mentioned it. I have not googled "Dream Theater" by itself... Probably since 2009. Sometimes I google "Dream Theater discography" when I need to cross reference something or song and lyrics, or whatever. So yeah, if those graphs are actually showing, "How many people googled this exact combination of words" during those months, or whatever, then it could mean very little.


Also, I was just trying to see random DT trends, and this one I found particularly interesting:

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=%22dream+theater+live%22
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 01, 2014, 03:12:28 PM

Also, I was just trying to see random DT trends, and this one I found particularly interesting:

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=%22dream+theater+live%22

If you think about it, it's quite likely to be Live at Budokan and Live at Luna Park that's causing those spikes, they both occur right around the release of each. What's strange about this is that everything inbetween isn't comparable to these peaks. Is it because other live releases like Score and Chaos in Motion weren't titled 'live at somewhere' so aren't relevant in this type of search trend? Also, the 'dream theater live' searches seem to be heading for an all time low again, yet the band is on tour right now so those spikes seem more likely related to the hype of their official live releases.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 01, 2014, 04:18:30 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 01, 2014, 04:06:19 PM
If you think about it, it's quite likely to be Live at Budokan and Live at Luna Park that's causing those spikes, they both occur right around the release of each. What's strange about this is that everything inbetween isn't comparable to these peaks. Is it because other live releases like Score and Chaos in Motion weren't titled 'live at somewhere' so aren't relevant in this type of search trend? Also, the 'dream theater live' searches seem to be heading for an all time low again, yet the band is on tour right now so those spikes seem more likely related to the hype of their official live releases.

So what does that mean though? That when people want "live at budokan" or "live at luna park" they simply type, "Dream Theater Live"? Lazy bastards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 04:30:25 PM
That's the definition of the casual fan though, right? He/she might have heard DT put out a new live album, and that's exactly how I would search for it if I didn't know the name.

Keep also in mind that Google is a convenient way to search for YouTube videos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 01, 2014, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 04:30:25 PM
That's the definition of the casual fan though, right? He/she might have heard DT put out a new live album, and that's exactly how I would search for it if I didn't know the name.

Keep also in mind that Google is a convenient way to search for YouTube videos.

Yeah, but if all they're looking for is DT's latest live album, then we should've seen spikes in 2006 and 2008 as well, when Score and CIM came out. So obviously, people searching for their latest live album that doesn't have the word "live" in it, is not a significant factor in this case, it would seem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 01, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
I don't have the information right in front of me, but given how Chile and Indonesia are the main searchers for that term, it might me more about people looking for their touring schedule. When was DT in Chile?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 01, 2014, 08:39:24 PM
Wait, I think I figured out why DT has been a declining trend on google! You see, those fans that kept searching for "Dream Theater" ended up buying the deluxe editions of DT albums, and as a result, they went broke, and lost their internet! Mystery solved!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 01, 2014, 08:43:13 PM
Maybe all of their fans migrated to the U.K. and started searching "Dream Theatre"...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on May 01, 2014, 11:06:35 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 01, 2014, 08:43:13 PM
Maybe all of their fans migrated to the U.K. and started searching "Dream Theatre"...
:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Not sure if it's controversial or not, but IMHO, Illumination Theory has the best examples of JLB's vocal techniques used within a single song.  All his tricks are on display, from soft, heartfelt passages to raspy sections to high notes.  There are other songs that perhaps contain better examples of one of these traits, but they are all on display in this song, and he is one of the reason I love it so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 03, 2014, 10:21:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Not sure if it's controversial or not, but IMHO, Illumination Theory has the best examples of JLB's vocal techniques used within a single song.  All his tricks are on display, from soft, heartfelt passages to raspy sections to high notes.  There are other songs that perhaps contain better examples of one of these traits, but they are all on display in this song, and he is one of the reason I love it so much.

Hmm... I would say that between IT and The Shattered Fortress, we really do get to see his whole spectrum. Which is pretty impressive. I don't know too many vocalists who have that many colors to their technique.
I think it's because JLB started out with the high, soaring vocal style that belonged to Glam Metal, and because that genre died off shortly after DT formed, while still doing high vocals for a lot of DT songs, he was forced to evolve and develop his style further, not only because of DT's diverse style in music, but to keep up with the times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on May 03, 2014, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM
Not sure if it's controversial or not, but IMHO, Illumination Theory has the best examples of JLB's vocal techniques used within a single song.  All his tricks are on display, from soft, heartfelt passages to raspy sections to high notes.  There are other songs that perhaps contain better examples of one of these traits, but they are all on display in this song, and he is one of the reason I love it so much.

This. I think most would agree that JLB does a great job showcasing his range and abilities in IT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 04, 2014, 02:30:56 AM
I've said it a few times, but I actually think IT showcases the entire band brilliantly. There's honestly a little bit of everything. Crazy guitar riffing and soloing, crazy keyboard solos, atmospheric keyboards, lots of subtle base nuances, strings, dynamic vocal demonstrations, crazy drum fills, melodic drum fills, plenty of key and time signature changes, suite arrangements, silence, easter eggs etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on May 04, 2014, 03:54:24 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 04, 2014, 02:30:56 AM
I've said it a few times, but I actually think IT showcases the entire band brilliantly. There's honestly a little bit of everything. Crazy guitar riffing and soloing, crazy keyboard solos, atmospheric keyboards, lots of subtle base nuances, strings, dynamic vocal demonstrations, crazy drum fills, melodic drum fills, plenty of key and time signature changes, suite arrangements, silence, easter eggs etc.

Imagine if we had an album with 5 of those! It would be a classic!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on May 07, 2014, 12:21:27 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on May 04, 2014, 03:54:24 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 04, 2014, 02:30:56 AM
I've said it a few times, but I actually think IT showcases the entire band brilliantly. There's honestly a little bit of everything. Crazy guitar riffing and soloing, crazy keyboard solos, atmospheric keyboards, lots of subtle base nuances, strings, dynamic vocal demonstrations, crazy drum fills, melodic drum fills, plenty of key and time signature changes, suite arrangements, silence, easter eggs etc.

Imagine if we had an album with 5 of those! It would be a classic!
Well you have Six Degrees and BC&SL, so not necessarily, both with 6 songs, so not necessarily. Even though I love Six Degrees, I prefer balance.


As for the trends, I remember the "there are three kinds of lies" phrase. It's just ONE meter, and DT isn't exactly and never was the casual fan kind of band, and probably never will be. Comparing it to "singles" kind of bands is not the right thing to do. The concert sales seem to be as high as ever, so I'd say that's the most reliable stat for a band right now.
As for the forum, even worse, we're are the geek fans among a band that's already a geeky band, so it doesn't say anything at all really.

I think DT has always been a steady band, except for the PMU success, after that they kept growing or shrinking in very small amounts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on May 07, 2014, 08:22:09 PM
I love raspy James, or the aggressive, metallic James heard on Train of Thought. Test That Stumped Them All has some of my favorite JLB vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 07, 2014, 09:24:54 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on May 07, 2014, 08:22:09 PM
I love raspy James, or the aggressive, metallic James heard on Train of Thought. Test That Stumped Them All has some of my favorite JLB vocals.

I love pretty much everything JLB does, but TTTSTA definitely makes a lasting impression. He sounds so aggressive. It makes me happy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 08, 2014, 12:46:17 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on May 07, 2014, 08:22:09 PM
I love raspy James, or the aggressive, metallic James heard on Train of Thought. Test That Stumped Them All has some of my favorite JLB vocals.

This is why I like Luna Park so much, he adds a fair bit of grit to some of the ADTOE songs that almost breathes new life into them completely.

Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 07, 2014, 09:24:54 PM
I love pretty much everything JLB does, but TTTSTA definitely makes a lasting impression. He sounds so aggressive. It makes me happy.

Love the energy in the vocals during WIMH aswell. Even MP sounds pretty good in this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 09, 2014, 09:09:45 PM
I guess it would be progressive for them, but it would also suck :lol I don't think I would even bother downloading such an album.

My comment, which probably is not all that controversial really: I was listening to the "demo" version of ITNOG, as released by the bootlegs. To my understanding, the term "demo" doesn't really apply anymore for those ToT bootleg tunes. With ToT they started writing their albums completely in the studio, so they would record scratch tracks, and then rerecord all tracks with studio quality takes. So, I think those "demos" are really just mixed-down scratch tracks. Unlike previous albums' demo releases, where the songs were subtly different, because between the time of recording the demo, and actually going into the studio, the songs had changed and matured more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:12:26 PM
I hope the fact that they've been playing a lot of Awake on this tour influences their writing for the next album.

By that I mean: Make the writing suck less.

Ahem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 10:15:38 PM
Given the selections from Awake this tour, I'm hoping to hell that it doesn't have any bearing on the next album, or else it won't be very good. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:17:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 10:15:38 PM
Given the selections from Awake this tour, I'm hoping to hell that it doesn't have any bearing on the next album, or else it won't be very good. :biggrin:


  :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on May 09, 2014, 10:30:36 PM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:17:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 10:15:38 PM
Given the selections from Awake this tour, I'm hoping to hell that it doesn't have any bearing on the next album, or else it won't be very good. :biggrin:


  :loser:

Don't mind Blob, he's our resident Awake hater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 11:03:46 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 09, 2014, 10:30:36 PM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:17:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 10:15:38 PM
Given the selections from Awake this tour, I'm hoping to hell that it doesn't have any bearing on the next album, or else it won't be very good. :biggrin:


  :loser:

Don't mind Blob, he's our resident Awake hater.

I'm not the only one, but I'm proudly the most vocal! :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: billybobjoe1881 on May 09, 2014, 11:13:05 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 01, 2014, 08:43:13 PM
Maybe all of their fans migrated to the U.K. and started searching "Dream Theatre"...

Or Canada.  I have a hard time spelling Dream Theater correctly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 10, 2014, 04:37:07 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 09, 2014, 09:09:45 PM
My comment, which probably is not all that controversial really: I was listening to the "demo" version of ITNOG, as released by the bootlegs. To my understanding, the term "demo" doesn't really apply anymore for those ToT bootleg tunes. With ToT they started writing their albums completely in the studio, so they would record scratch tracks, and then rerecord all tracks with studio quality takes. So, I think those "demos" are really just mixed-down scratch tracks. Unlike previous albums' demo releases, where the songs were subtly different, because between the time of recording the demo, and actually going into the studio, the songs had changed and matured more.
I believe you are mistaken.  They started "writing in the studio" with SFAM, because they were starting with JR as the new keyboard player at that time, and that was how the LTE albums had been written.  That continued on from there.

EXCEPT with TOT.  They got together in a rehearsal studio, where they spent 3 weeks writing, and demoed the songs.  Then they went to the actual studio and did the final recordings. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 10, 2014, 10:59:19 AM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:12:26 PM
I hope the fact that they've been playing a lot of Awake on this tour influences their writing for the next album.

By that I mean: Make the writing suck less.

Ahem.
Eesh. If you're looking for sucky writing, DT12 isn't the place. That album is tight as a drum. Even the 19-minuter doesn't sprawl. The entire album is smart, concise, creative and diverse - bloody magnificent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 10, 2014, 11:36:58 AM
Quote from: robwebster on May 10, 2014, 10:59:19 AM
Quote from: Shine on May 09, 2014, 10:12:26 PM
I hope the fact that they've been playing a lot of Awake on this tour influences their writing for the next album.

By that I mean: Make the writing suck less.

Ahem.
Eesh. If you're looking for sucky writing, DT12 isn't the place. That album is tight as a drum. Even the 19-minuter doesn't sprawl. The entire album is smart, concise, creative and diverse - bloody magnificent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on May 10, 2014, 11:53:14 AM
Rob, you forgot "unmemorable" and "bland".  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 10, 2014, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Nel on May 10, 2014, 11:53:14 AM
Rob, you forgot "unmemorable" and "bland".  :P

 :-\ I don't think he forgot anything. Creative and diverse don't go with "unmemorable" and "bland". The contrast between FAS, EM, TBP, BTV, and IT is considerable. I certainly couldn't look past the FAS into, the BTV solo/intro, IT string section/easter egg/James' incredible vocals, TLG's cymbal work, or EM's riffage/detective feel as "unmemorable". It may not be the best album they've released, and may not be somebody else's cup of tea, but it's not bland...



 :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on May 10, 2014, 04:01:38 PM
No sorry, every song sounds the same. It's like the mixed the entire album around TEI and forgot that it was the only heavy song on the album. I seriously wish I could get passed the absolutely abysmal mixing, but I just can't. It's trash. Worst sounding album, in terms of production, that Dream Theater has ever released. It's completely lacking any dynamics. WDADU might sound dated, but at least it's crisp, you can actually get a sense of what they wanted the music to sound like. DT is just white noise. And yes, I've listened to the HD tracks release, it doesn't seem to make much difference.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on May 10, 2014, 04:08:26 PM
The music and songwriting is good, which is what I was talking about. I'm not a big fan of the mixing, but I'd say it's better than WDADU. WDADU sounds fuzzy and blurry to me, DT12 just sounds too compressed. I agree with you somewhat, but bad production =/= bland songwriting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 10, 2014, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 09, 2014, 09:09:45 PM
I was listening to the "demo" version of ITNOG, as released by the bootlegs. To my understanding, the term "demo" doesn't really apply anymore for those ToT bootleg tunes. With ToT they started writing their albums completely in the studio, so they would record scratch tracks, and then rerecord all tracks with studio quality takes. So, I think those "demos" are really just mixed-down scratch tracks. Unlike previous albums' demo releases, where the songs were subtly different, because between the time of recording the demo, and actually going into the studio, the songs had changed and matured more.

Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it? Also the TOT demos had far less time to develop relative to other album schedules, compared to say, the FII demos which had much more time to evolve. Even still, I'd argue that there are a fair few differences; Keyboard tones/patches seem a bit different (unless they're just clearer because studio keyboards are normally quiet  :facepalm:), also JPs solos can be different (eg. This Dying Soul). For the most part I'd say they improved and tightened up the solos, although I think the solos are the most obvious differences between the demos. Stream of Consciousness demo is a bit of a trip if you're quite familiar with the original as you'll notice some section that sound quite different. The arrangements seem to have remained entirely intact from the demos to the studio versions though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 10, 2014, 08:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 10, 2014, 05:25:10 PM
Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it?

Err, hell no. A demo is something you go to record companies with to get their buy-in, whereas a scratch track is simply a poorly executed version of the final track.

@hef: I stand corrected about the writing in the studio part. But I still think the ToT demos are quite different from the earlier ones, if only because there was no time between recording of the demos and the actual recording of the album. The changes to the actual album version are minute, whereas "You or Me" for example are different songs almost.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nel on May 10, 2014, 08:56:00 PM
(For the record, I love Rob and am just poking some fun towards him.)  :heart

I really do still dislike DT12 though. I've tried at least once a month since it came out, and it just doesn't do anything for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 10, 2014, 09:16:05 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 10, 2014, 08:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 10, 2014, 05:25:10 PM
Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it?

Err, hell no. A demo is something you go to record companies with to get their buy-in, whereas a scratch track is simply a poorly executed version of the final track.

Err.. But a demonstration track doesn't mean it always has to be for the record company in the traditional sense. It can simply be a demonstration for the band members themselves to get an idea of what a tracked version of their composition/ideas will sound like; ala scratch track. I mean.. They actually are the same thing most of the time because they have the same application most of the time, with the only differentiation being the semantics of what you want to call it for whichever specific purpose. But it's one of those things like; all scratch tracks are demos, that's the point of them, a demonstration, but not all demos are intended to be used as scratch tracks. But whatevs.  :justjen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 10, 2014, 09:21:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 10, 2014, 08:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 10, 2014, 05:25:10 PM
Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it?

Err, hell no. A demo is something you go to record companies with to get their buy-in, whereas a scratch track is simply a poorly executed version of the final track.

@hef: I stand corrected about the writing in the studio part. But I still think the ToT demos are quite different from the earlier ones, if only because there was no time between recording of the demos and the actual recording of the album. The changes to the actual album version are minute, whereas "You or Me" for example are different songs almost.

YNM is a special case though, given how unique the process of FII was for the band, with the label meddling. That was not a case of DT refining the songs between demo and studio, it was a case of an outside producer fucking up a song further. Not a great example of their old writing process anyway. :lol

Not that I'm disagreeing with your core point, just that's a terrible example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 10, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 10, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Daso on May 11, 2014, 12:03:57 AM
I agree with both points but really need to mention Raise the Knife is an amazing song. I'm glad we got the Score version.

Also, I would've enjoyed listening to a full instrumental version of New Millennium. It's such a groovy song with Myung on the Chapman Stick. Very underrated if you ask me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tweeg on May 11, 2014, 12:12:30 AM
Quote from: Zook on May 10, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

I agree with all of this. Also, getting rid of the third verse in Anna Lee and replacing it with the key change was a vast improvement.

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on May 11, 2014, 02:00:26 AM
Quote from: tweeg on May 11, 2014, 12:12:30 AM

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

Or maybe they just put less effort in crafting the lyrics... :sadpanda:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on May 11, 2014, 06:21:03 AM
Quote from: Zook on May 10, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

Quote from: Daso on May 11, 2014, 12:03:57 AM
I agree with both points but really need to mention Raise the Knife is an amazing song. I'm glad we got the Score version.

Also, I would've enjoyed listening to a full instrumental version of New Millennium. It's such a groovy song with Myung on the Chapman Stick. Very underrated if you ask me.

Agreed with both of you
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 11, 2014, 08:55:45 AM
Quote from: Nel on May 10, 2014, 11:53:14 AM
Rob, you forgot "unmemorable" and "bland".  :P
There's a reason for that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 11, 2014, 04:08:09 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on May 11, 2014, 02:00:26 AM
Quote from: tweeg on May 11, 2014, 12:12:30 AM

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

Or maybe they just put less effort in crafting the lyrics... :sadpanda:

Some might argue (like me :P) that writing more generalised lyrics that lots of people can connect with or interpret in their own way, might often be more difficult than writing about a specific subject that the listener may or may not even be interested in or agree with, they don't get to put their own personal spin on it as a listener. Obviously it's up to the writer how they want it to be perceived, but I prefer to give credit where it's due because it can go either way. I think if anything JP is putting as much effort into his lyrics as he ever has, considering the much larger audience they have compared to 25 years ago when you'd be mostly writing for yourself because you wouldn't necessarily have an intended audience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on May 11, 2014, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 10, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.

One example of a good change: Taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 09:23:20 PM
Quote from: Implode on May 11, 2014, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 10, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.

One example of a good change: Taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Even though I really like BMS too, Hell's Kitchen didn't fit in the middle, and works so much more epically on its own with that final buildup.
Most of the rest of the changes were relatively smaller, but all helped to tighten up the arrangements and make them more focused. Given many of the seemingly tiny criticisms people focus on in later DT songs, those little changes can make a difference.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on May 11, 2014, 11:25:00 PM
Wait. You think the changes were good?

Oh. I read your post wrong. We are in complete agreement. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good. :tup
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 11, 2014, 11:46:40 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 10, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

Absolutely.

To me, a demo is like a rough draft, and sometimes rough drafts are good enough to only need a slight tweak or two (see: Raise the Knife pretty much played exactly like the demo at the Score show), but more often than not, the final draft is far better than the rough draft/demo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 12, 2014, 06:45:24 AM
I agree that most of the changes done on FII were 100% correct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on May 12, 2014, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point? :lol

Helloweem. Edguy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on May 12, 2014, 12:53:51 PM
Sometimes I wonder why DT never evolved to something radically different musically.
This is a “virus” that almost every band gets! Most of them end up changing their styles radically as the years go by. You name it: Guns N Roses, Metallica, Avenged Sevenfold, Paradise Lost, Megadeth etc, which is pretty normal. We get old, life changes, our music tastes change.

Well, we can listen to “different” DTs over the years (I&W x FII x 6DOIT x DT12), but no really radical or expressive change.
Maybe this change is what Portnoy wanted. I don´t know. But I really think they should aim to something radically different in style in order to survive as a band.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on May 12, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 12, 2014, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point? :lol

Helloweem. Edguy.

I raise you Sonata Arctica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on May 12, 2014, 02:34:04 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on May 12, 2014, 12:53:51 PM
Sometimes I wonder why DT never evolved to something radically different musically.
Most of the bands that alter their style radically over the years have either one main songwriter or a constantly changing line-up. My theory is that the bands that have just one person writing most or all of the music change, because the more songs you write, the easier it is to get tired of formulas and want to do something different. On the other hand, there are bands that write collaboratively and go through changes as new members bring in different influences. A good example of this is Amorphis: they used to have a different line-up on each album (not on purpose; members were just coming and going), but since they found their current singer in 2005 their music has stabilized.

DT have always written more or less as a group, so there probably hasn't been a need for radical changes. However, they didn't really have a stable line-up until Jordan joined, and as a result the albums were always a bit different. The line-up with Jordan and MP lasted 11 years, so it's natural that the music got more formulaic towards the end, but MP's departure was a needed shakeup. It's safe to assume that the current line-up will remain for many years, so at this point I think the biggest challenge for DT is to prevent their music from getting stale as years go by. I'd love to see them go outside their comfort zone and try some different approaches, but we'll see what happens.
Quote from: Scorpion on May 12, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 12, 2014, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point? :lol
Helloweem. Edguy.
I raise you Sonata Arctica.
:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 12, 2014, 02:59:12 PM
I think DT in the early days had to prove more. Yes, the stabilization of their sound coincided with JR's tenure, but I think after the success of SFAM and SDOIT, DT felt they found the "winning formula" of writing their albums, and thus felt relatively secure and locked themselves into that "tour+studio" cycle. And I kinda have the impression that they dropped back into it now.

But yeah, MP's "Inspiration Corner" was probably to some degree an attempt to steer DT to new directions. I think the problem may have been that this change wasn't a natural one (e.g. JP listens to more jazz and folds some ideas into songs), but an outside-imposed one, with the result that those songs just sounded like the band they were supposed to be "inspired" from. And even to this days that effect persists, with seemingly more and more Rush-influenced songs appearing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 12, 2014, 10:03:15 PM
I think another reason their sound is more stable these days is because they didn't have as much control in the earlier years, and were still finding their sound.
Pre-SFAM, they had outside influence from producers and record labels. Not that I'm saying the musical direction of those albums was dictated by the label or anything, but on FII they had to play the game to an extent to get that album out.

But ever since SFAM, they've had full control to write whatever they wish, and with JR have struck upon a strong signature sound. They've still had plenty of variety in those years, but they're more comfortable and consistent in their approach to writing music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on May 14, 2014, 12:22:39 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on May 12, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 12, 2014, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
Quote from: NotePad on May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point? :lol

Helloweem. Edguy.

I raise you Sonata Arctica.

I find there is a lot of fantasy imagery in Sonata Artica's lyrics. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on May 14, 2014, 01:31:34 AM
Quote from: NotePad on May 14, 2014, 12:22:39 AM
I find there is a lot of fantasy imagery in Sonata Artica's lyrics. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.....
Tony Kakko has always disliked lyrics about dragons and swords, so you won't find them on SA's albums :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 15, 2014, 02:45:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good. :tup
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.
I think my one issue with Falling into Infinity is the tracklist - there are a lot of diverse and interesting songs that came out of those sessions, but the ones that made it to the disc are some of the more inconsequential ones. Plus, there's this whole block towards the bottom of the album, where you've got Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Just Let Me Breathe, Anna Lee and Trial of Tears all back to back. The two big songs in there have moments of bite, and Just Let Me Breathe breaks it up, but the album isn't great for pace - there's a lot of riffs at the start and a lot of laid-back music at the tail end.

Can't think how I'd rearrange it. I'm trying to picture Trial of Tears as an opener... and failing, somewhat, but it's in there. I'll fiddle about in Audition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on May 15, 2014, 03:39:43 PM
.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsem on May 15, 2014, 03:42:07 PM
Trial of Tears couldn't be anything other than a closer IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 15, 2014, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: robwebster on May 15, 2014, 02:45:08 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2014, 11:38:50 PM
Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good. :tup
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.
I think my one issue with Falling into Infinity is the tracklist - there are a lot of diverse and interesting songs that came out of those sessions, but the ones that made it to the disc are some of the more inconsequential ones. Plus, there's this whole block towards the bottom of the album, where you've got Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Just Let Me Breathe, Anna Lee and Trial of Tears all back to back. The two big songs in there have moments of bite, and Just Let Me Breathe breaks it up, but the album isn't great for pace - there's a lot of riffs at the start and a lot of laid-back music at the tail end.

Can't think how I'd rearrange it. I'm trying to picture Trial of Tears as an opener... and failing, somewhat, but it's in there. I'll fiddle about in Audition.

Honestly, I think the best songs made it to the disc, YNM aside, which is the only one I skip. Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal. They're largely not as good as what's on the final album, except for RTK, which I still only think is fairly average, and imo wouldn't have a place on the album regardless.
Never had a problem with the flow either! Aside from the minor niggle of YNM at the start, I find it to be one of DT's easiest albums to listen to beginning to end, and the order just works for me. I think your generalization is a bit too loose to agree with, but I think it gives the album a natural progression anyway. ToT is definitely a closer. I can't even imagine it as an opener. Silly man!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on May 15, 2014, 10:00:16 PM
The only change on FII i'd consider making is to swap YNM for Speak to Me, though that doesn't really work as the second song of the album, so some re-arranging of the tracklist would be necessary - though I'm not sure how. Trial of Tears can't be anything else than a closer, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 16, 2014, 04:28:50 AM
You say that, but it's slap bang in the middle of the current set! A live set's not exactly the same as an album order, but DT12 almost went live with Illumination Theory as track two, which I don't think would have worked, but I think it's interesting how far it got. Black Holes and Revelations was originally scheduled with Knights of Cydonia first and Take A Bow last - which seems completely ludicrous to me, but it was absolutely the plan, and like Knights of Cydonia, I wonder if Trial of Tears might only sound innately final because we've heard it at the end of an album for seventeen years. Like I said, I'm still not quite picturing it, but I like the idea of the album slowly warming up, rather than gradually shedding its grit, and I think Trial of Tears would work well at the beginning of that particular album. Something like...

1. Trial of Tears
2. Take Away My Pain
3. Cover My Eyes
4. Peruvian Skies
5. Raise the Knife

6. Just Let Me Breathe
7. Hollow Years
8. Hell's Kitchen
9. Lines in the Sand

Sort of feels a bit more balanced. Almost mirrors, one side to another. Clear Side A and Side B, too - something I seem to remember Mike Portnoy regretted not quite achieving. Ahhh, I don't know. I quite like messing with structure. Context can change a lot. Half the appeal of Overture 1928 is the promise of adventure to come. I think, if FII is sometimes hard work, that's more to do with the order the music happens in than the songs themselves. The Dream Theater canon could always use a couple more songs like Anna Lee, just... not necessarily all at the same time.

It's just something to fiddle about with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 16, 2014, 05:18:15 AM
You just killed one of my favourite DT albums, rob. :lol

(well maybe not as far as killed, but severely wounded at the very least)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 16, 2014, 06:26:19 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 15, 2014, 09:57:18 PM
Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal.
I disagree entirely.  That may have been true of the fanbase as it existed in 1998 or so, but that fanbase has come a long way, and there is nothing obscure about those songs now.  With today's technology, they are readily available.  A lot of people just like those songs better than some that made the album, that's all.  Has nothing to do with obscurity or rarity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 16, 2014, 06:33:39 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 16, 2014, 06:26:19 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 15, 2014, 09:57:18 PM
Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal.
I disagree entirely.  That may have been true of the fanbase as it existed in 1998 or so, but that fanbase has come a long way, and there is nothing obscure about those songs now.  With today's technology, they are readily available.  A lot of people just like those songs better than some that made the album, that's all.  Has nothing to do with obscurity or rarity.

I still think they're all level with YNM for empty poppiness, so I have no idea what people see in them. They were right to ditch them. They would have added nothing to the album.
And they're still relatively very obscure songs. The average fan (ie not a DTF diehard) wouldn't care to realize these songs exist, or to seek them out. FII isn't highly enough regarded by most people to bother to begin with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GentlemanofDread on May 16, 2014, 10:10:04 AM
Cover My Eyes or Speak To Me are probably the only two FII Demo songs I really really like, but I don't want to ruin one of my favourite DT albums by trying to slide them in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on May 20, 2014, 04:57:07 AM
Quote from: tweeg on May 11, 2014, 12:12:30 AM
Quote from: Zook on May 10, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

I agree with all of this. Also, getting rid of the third verse in Anna Lee and replacing it with the key change was a vast improvement.

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.
My first language isn't English and I can tell you that it's a stupid idea. If you don't understand the language or have a very low level/limited knowledge of it, you just don't listen to english music for the lyrics, you listen for the melodies and the music and just hum along.(or come up with alternative lyrics in your own language, with hilarious results :lol) And I don't think the lyrics have been simplified, maybe around the SC/BCSL era but right now, JP is as he always been.

As for FII, for me it's not the rarity factor, I just happen to love Cover My Eyes, Speak To Me and especially The Way It Used To Be, all of them are in my Top 50. Raise The Knife is a good song, but I'm not sure it fits in this particular album and needs triming and reworking, don't care for Where Are You Now. Cover My Eyes wipes the floor off You Not Me or You Or Me every day of the week, a lot more catchy and way better lyrics. My playlist of FII has all of those(except WAYN and RTK) swapped for You Not Me, Burning My Soul, Anna Lee and Take Away My Pain, all songs I like but don't think are great.

And Rob, New Millenium is THE opener for FII, don't mess with that one!! >:( And Muse opened their DVD concert for BH&R with Knights of Cydonia and closed with Take a Bow. :biggrin: Trial of Tears last section is too much if a closer to be anything else, even if it has the potential of being both, unless they split it up like they did with ITPOE, but that wouldn't work at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 28, 2014, 03:08:07 PM
I was listening to Space-Dye Vest today, and I have to say, upon really thinking about the lyrics, some of them, in my controversial opinion, are more corny than anything DT has ever written. I mean, "Love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding. A pool in the shape of a heart."  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
I don't know why it hit me today of all days, but yeah, just because it's more poetic than The Count of Tuscany, does not make it any less cheesy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on May 28, 2014, 03:09:15 PM
That's a great line.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 28, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
Well, it does have plenty of cheese AND whine!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on May 28, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
Space-Dye Vest in general is a very cheesy song imo ;D but I think some of the lyrics are actually quite poetic. I love the lyrics: 

"Falling through pages of Martens on angels
Feeling my heart pull west...
Beauty projection in the reflection
Always the worst way to start."

I always thought Moore's lyrics always flowed nicely, but I can mostly agree with that

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 28, 2014, 03:19:18 PM
Yeah, not all of Kevin's lyrics are great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 28, 2014, 04:16:29 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on May 28, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
Space-Dye Vest in general is a very cheesy song imo ;D but I think some of the lyrics are actually quite poetic. I love the lyrics: 

"Falling through pages of Martens on angels
Feeling my heart pull west...
Beauty projection in the reflection
Always the worst way to start."

I always thought Moore's lyrics always flowed nicely, but I can mostly agree with that

Those verses are pretty great. I'm not saying all the lyrics in the song are cheesy, but those that are, are among DT's most cheesy. I mean, even the whole, "I'll never be open again" part. There's a reason why that caption gets used for every single remotely emo looking picture of DT members.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 28, 2014, 04:22:17 PM
I've always loved the line:
"There's nowhere to set my aim,
So I'm everywhere"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on May 28, 2014, 04:32:37 PM
Outside of the song SDV's lyrics might be cheesy, but they fit the music so well that it doesn't seem cheesy at all to me when I listen to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on May 29, 2014, 12:55:31 AM
I agree about SDV's lyrics being cheesy. I'd never looked at them that way. However, in the context of the song it doesn't sound cheesy at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 29, 2014, 04:32:49 AM
re: SDV

God damn you everyone. Literally any way of expressing emotion in writing is or can be cheesy, and will never be "the real thing", because language isn't a perfect channel of your mental representation.

I mean, I am kind of overreacting not because it's SDV, but because I'm really, REALLY over cheesy as a description word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 04:42:34 AM
I agree. CORNY is the word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 29, 2014, 04:43:38 AM
that one's even worse
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 04:45:20 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 29, 2014, 04:43:38 AM
that one's even worse

And yet, I rarely see people refer to DT lyrics as corny, whereas cheesy's been done to death. I guess because they often refer to the music rather than the actual lyrics. But yeah, some of SDV's lyrics are very corny.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on May 29, 2014, 04:58:58 AM
If SDV's lyrics are cheesy, then at least it's Jalepeno Cheddar, which is damn good. So basically I don't find them cheesy and I like them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 05:22:56 AM
You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on May 29, 2014, 07:19:35 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 05:22:56 AM
You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you?  :lol

:lol Not at all. Unless you define lyrics as poetry and sad as mundanely horrible. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on May 29, 2014, 07:57:39 AM
A lot of DT songs have cheesy lyrics, but SDV isn't the first one that comes to mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on May 29, 2014, 02:03:24 PM
Cheesy, corny, it's all got the same idea I think.

 
Quote from: ? on May 29, 2014, 07:57:39 AM
A lot of DT songs have cheesy lyrics, but SDV isn't the first one that comes to mind.

Definitely not, SDV just happens to be the topic of conversation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on May 29, 2014, 03:52:32 PM
Kevin's lyrics for SDV are more poetic than cheesy/corny. I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea that writing anything remotely related to heartbreak and love would be considered that. :lol Especially not in context with the haunting, depressingness that the music presents.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 29, 2014, 06:08:55 PM
I would have thought the music aids in turning the lyrics from a slice of cheese into an extra grilled cheese sandwich. It's all about emersion or perhaps connecting with the vibe the writer intended. Doesn't matter how well the song expresses it's contents in an artistic 'haunting' way that might be quite immersive to a listener, it's still going to be seen as cheesy by other people, especially because it's about heartbreak. I mean surely that's the most cliché subject you can write music about but everyone tends to be able to relate to these ideas on some level. So it's all perspective and if you're not wearing your cheese specs., you might not notice how much Space Dye Vest is drowning in all of the cheese. Still, it's a unique song that comes along once in a career so who cares about the overcheese. And at least they don't have 50 songs like this, sometimes a bit of cheese is just fine so long as you don't over do it... :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on May 29, 2014, 07:19:35 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 05:22:56 AM
You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you?  :lol

:lol Not at all. Unless you define lyrics as poetry and sad as mundanely horrible. :P

Well, lyrics are a form of poetry, in a way, aren't they... So you were half way there. And besides, if you take all the teenagers who write poetry, the vast majority of it is one kind of horrible or another, so there ya go!

Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 29, 2014, 06:08:55 PM
I would have thought the music aids in turning the lyrics from a slice of cheese into an extra grilled cheese sandwich. It's all about emersion or perhaps connecting with the vibe the writer intended.

Well, can't the same be said about every single cheesy song/lyric in the world? I mean, wouldn't it be the same deal with TCOT or whatever else most DT fans might consider cheesy?

Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on May 29, 2014, 03:52:32 PM
Kevin's lyrics for SDV are more poetic than cheesy/corny. I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea that writing anything remotely related to heartbreak and love would be considered that.

First of all, are you joking? 90% of songs that can be considered cheesy out there are precisely about love and heartbreak. That's part of what makes them so cheesy? When I said that SDV was cheesy, I meant in the grand scheme of DT's lyrics. Compared to other artists cheesy love and heartbreak songs, SDV is great.

Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. It's about the infatuation with a model from a catalog. Whoever this girl is, whatever she's like, it can't possibly live up to the picture that he no doubt painted in his head, just from her image alone. And that, IMO, is a fantastic subject matter for a song, and therein lies the problem. The lethargic tone of the song doesn't fit the subject matter at all. I mean, the idea of falling in love with a girl from a catalog, beautiful as it is, is completely absurd, and that's a big part of what makes it so interesting. But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on May 29, 2014, 06:28:40 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. It's about the infatuation with a model from a catalog. Whoever this girl is, whatever she's like, it can't possibly live up to the picture that he no doubt painted in his head, just from her image alone. And that, IMO, is a fantastic subject matter for a song, and therein lies the problem. The lethargic tone of the song doesn't fit the subject matter at all. I mean, the idea of falling in love with a girl from a catalog, beautiful as it is, is completely absurd, and that's a big part of what makes it so interesting. But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.

THIS is why I think Space-Dye Vest and its theme/tone is grossly overrated :-X
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on May 29, 2014, 06:51:02 PM
ITT:

(https://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-06/slice-cheese.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on May 29, 2014, 11:14:58 PM
Looks like good cheese, so it's accurate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenfoul on May 29, 2014, 11:41:02 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 29, 2014, 04:32:49 AM
re: SDV

God damn you everyone. Literally any way of expressing emotion in writing is or can be cheesy, and will never be "the real thing", because language isn't a perfect channel of your mental representation.

I mean, I am kind of overreacting not because it's SDV, but because I'm really, REALLY over cheesy as a description word.
Calling stuff 'cheesy' is so cliche now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 12:24:26 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on May 29, 2014, 11:14:58 PM
Looks like good cheese, so it's accurate.

There is no bad cheese in Dream Theater, if you look at it that way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 30, 2014, 12:24:36 AM
lol Eventually it'll be a cliché to call something a cliché, I mean I totally agree, words are completely lacking, insufficient, imperfect and unworthy at representing or defining what we think and feel, but that's why if we add as many words as possible into the language we just might get closer at pinpointing the specifics of thought and emotion. But as inadequate as cheesy might be, to describe certain aspects of music, it does represent an idea or a perspective of interpretation for some individuals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 01:05:38 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 30, 2014, 12:24:36 AM
lol Eventually it'll be a cliché to call something a cliché, I mean I totally agree, words are completely lacking, insufficient, imperfect and unworthy at representing or defining what we think and feel, but that's why if we add as many words as possible into the language we just might get closer at pinpointing the specifics of thought and emotion. But as inadequate as cheesy might be, to describe certain aspects of music, it does represent an idea or a perspective of interpretation for some individuals.

Of course, if we start adding too many words, and try to bring back the parts of the English language that aren't widely used anymore, then instead of 'cheesy' and 'cliché', people will be calling it pretentious.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on May 30, 2014, 02:05:36 AM
Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 02:22:56 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on May 30, 2014, 02:05:36 AM
Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!

It's very cheesy to call using the word pretentious cliché.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on May 30, 2014, 02:28:57 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 02:22:56 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on May 30, 2014, 02:05:36 AM
Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!

It's very cheesy to call using the word pretentious cliché.

I'd say that comment is very ostentatious
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 30, 2014, 03:59:22 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 29, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. [...] But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.
But that's... kind of what it is about. It's about breaking up with someone you love, and then filling the blank in any way you know. It's not like I'm making this up, it was quoted in the DT Norway FAQ verbatim from Kevin.

All I'm saying is, stuff like "there's nowhere to set my aim so I'm everywhere" and all of the other emotional triggers for band lyrics that are quoted as cheesy are a part of the human experience. Saying stuff like that is cheesy is invalidating a common part of being a person and  the ways to express it. I know I'm not explaining myself very well, but what can you do :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 30, 2014, 04:17:46 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 30, 2014, 03:59:22 AM
All I'm saying is, stuff like "there's nowhere to set my aim so I'm everywhere" and all of the other emotional triggers for band lyrics that are quoted as cheesy are a part of the human experience. Saying stuff like that is cheesy is invalidating a common part of being a person and  the ways to express it. I know I'm not explaining myself very well, but what can you do :lol

I think I follow you, and yeah the words are no good..  :lol But in the same regard, calling it cheesy is just a perspective of that experience, not necessarily a disregard or dismissal of what emotions are triggered from these generalised or maybe cliché terms. This perspective might even evoke different types of emotions that are relevant to their experience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 30, 2014, 09:13:31 AM
I'm completely in agreement with MoraWintersoul here. I have a hard time calling any genuine expression of justified human emotion "cheesy," and Space Dye Vest is written better than the vast majority of emotional songs anyway. I'm sorry, but I can't get along with throwing any sad lyrics into the "emo" bin and labeling it cheesy.

Generally I try to avoid labeling lyrics as "cheesy," because I think there are more descriptive terms for bad lyrics, but if ever I do, it's not going to be an emotional breakup song, it will be something about dragons and swords or whatever. I think when we reach the point when we're labeling a line such as "I'll never be open again," which is emotionally powerful and literarily efficient, descriptive and vivid, as "cheesy," because... I don't really even know why? is a point where we've gone too far in applying that label.

In my book, SDV has among of the best lyrics of any DT song and would be up there with all songs in general. I'd point especially to "I'll never be open again" and "There's nowhere to set my aim, so I'm everywhere/Never come near me again, do you really think I need?" as examples of truly great lines.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on May 30, 2014, 03:02:57 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 30, 2014, 04:17:46 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on May 30, 2014, 03:59:22 AM
All I'm saying is, stuff like "there's nowhere to set my aim so I'm everywhere" and all of the other emotional triggers for band lyrics that are quoted as cheesy are a part of the human experience. Saying stuff like that is cheesy is invalidating a common part of being a person and  the ways to express it. I know I'm not explaining myself very well, but what can you do :lol

I think I follow you, and yeah the words are no good..  :lol But in the same regard, calling it cheesy is just a perspective of that experience, not necessarily a disregard or dismissal of what emotions are triggered from these generalised or maybe cliché terms. This perspective might even evoke different types of emotions that are relevant to their experience.
I mean, it's okay if you're, like, a (n aspiring) literary critic or something, and looking at it from a purely stylistic point of view, and you have a good idea about what you're saying. But I think way too many people throw that word around to signify "as a rational, cool, human person I am SO above stuff like "but above all, thank you for my life" or "love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding"; it's so lame and I like my expressions of raw human emotion refined and exquisite." Of course, everyone in this thread is going to say this is not true for them :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 30, 2014, 05:10:49 PM
You've now got me trying to work out what cheesiness is. I think it's a bit more specific than that, I don't think it can fairly apply to any expression of emotion, but it's definitely something that's a bit too subjective to hold much water as a criticism. It's a reaction, more than a critique. Says more about the listener than the music they're listening to.

I think... maybe cheesy is something that's aiming to be poetic and/or earnest and comes out artless and/or trite? Or maybe the dissonance created when you try to express something goofy or half-hearted with sincerity and conviction? Whatever it is, I don't think Space-Dye Vest's it. I'd give you depressing, but I'd have thought even Jimmy Edam-Eyes would have to squint to find cheese in it. New one on me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 30, 2014, 05:25:54 PM
I think you're onto something on both counts, there, robwebster. Perhaps you could say that it has to do with the dissonance between the... emotional depth or significance(?) of the subject and that of the language. Because I think you could call either deep, poetic writing about an unworthy subject or trite writing about an emotionally significant subject examples of cheesiness.

I just think that some people have started to go too far in the application of that label. I could certainly imagine a love song or a breakup song with "cheesy" lyrics, but it seems that some people are applying that to most or all songs with those topics when I would never dream of doing that.






Steven Wilson, who is of course one of the darlings of this forum, said something in an interview for his latest solo album (https://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/steven-wilson-talks-the-raven-that-refused-to-sing-and-other-stories-570809/7) that I found really interesting and noteworthy and that I think is applicable to this topic:

"One of the things about my lyrics is, I try to be simple. I do it with the music, too. I don’t like things to be complex, intellectual or obtuse just for the sake of it. I love the simplicity of certain phrases. What’s special about being to say ‘I love you,’ but in a new way… it’s so hard to do that. They’re such clichés, in a way. Being afraid to love someone, being in love with someone… if you can find a way to make these things sound fresh again, that’s a really special thing to do."

I think that's noteworthy when people talk about love songs or breakup songs being "cheesy." I think it's certainly possible to do that, but it's also definitely possible, as Wilson says, to use a clichéd phrase or idea but to make it work. And until today, I hardly knew anyone doubted that Kevin Moore did exactly that with the words to Space Dye Vest. Even though he may use a phrase or two that has been used many times before, the emotion is genuine and he finds a new way to approach the topic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 30, 2014, 05:50:56 PM
That's Orwell's rule, really - never use a long word when a short one will do. I love it as a rule. Brevity is wit, short words are more expressive than long ones. Why say "Aesthetically pleasing" when "Gorgeous" is shorter, sharper, and drips with connotations? The shortest words are the most powerful. Regrettably, it's not a rule I always stick to! But it's always in the back of my mind.

Good quote - although I'd also say "complex," "intellectual" and "obtuse just for the sake of it" are exactly the reasons I didn't try Grace for Drowning. Everything about the publicity yelled, "This is an album you're unlikely to love," then when they released Remainder the Black Dog any excitement I might've had just ebbed away - if that's what they're selling, I'm not buying!

The Raven That Refused to Sing did surprise me, the title track teased me in and I think it's a great disc, but I still wouldn't exactly say the album's an advert for musical simplicity. Luminol and The Holy Drinker are fantastic songs, but gratuitous and obtuse seem like fair descriptions of both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on May 30, 2014, 05:53:39 PM
I just like to use the right word(s).

Scarlett Johansson is gorgeous.  Big Ben is aesthetically pleasing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on May 30, 2014, 05:56:30 PM
Big Ben is magnificent, handsome, arcane...

Aesthetically pleasing is a bit too scientific - as are most long words. Not all, but I tend to find they convey meaning but not feeling. More letters, less said.

Useful if you're trying to be dispassionate, though! Great for analysis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on May 30, 2014, 06:12:13 PM
I can see why you would find Big Ben more of a visceral experience than I would.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 30, 2014, 06:12:30 PM
Here's the thing (I'm sorry!  :xbones), if you're experiencing something through a cheese filter, then no matter what comes through it is gonna have a taste of cheesiness. It's a perspective to feel that SDV is kinda 'cheesy'. Maybe the whole thing isn't, but a couple of lyrics might come across that way. "I'll never be open again" might be quite an emotional line, it might be powerful. But not necessarily to everyone. I think the line is cheesy because it sounds like emotional hypocrisy to me as opposed to the sincerity that it's supposed to represent. I don't think anyone could ever say that line with sincerity. It seems to me that offence is easily taken at the notion that something someone appreciates is being dismissed or disregarded by others, and the justification is summarised quite poorly (ala, cheese is a very subjective and probably insufficient word to describe what's really going on). Simply put though, if someone feels this way about the song, then it relates to the fact that they're not connecting with it. Furthermore, to assume they don't understand why they're using the word, is to invalidate their experience and point of view. Besides, as stated, there's good cheese too!

It makes me think, the thought of whether you feel something to be cheesy (god I hope I stop saying that word soon  :facepalm:), is related to your experience. And it's somewhat of a knee jerk reaction, you don't analyse every aspect of why you felt that way, you just did. So, you didn't connect with the ideas, perhaps you've already been through the experience before and it's become a cliché to you because you've 'been there, experienced that' kinda deal. It shouldn't take away from anything that someone else feels from the song though.

I love, Far From Heaven, Beneath The Surface, Along For The Ride, Wither, Forsaken, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, of the more recent ballads of sorts if you will, or examples of DT holding back and presenting a more mellow piece, and as much as I like these songs, admittedly they probably have some of the cheese factor DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE, or interpretation of your own experience. (Let's consider that Space Dye Vest is in the same category for a moment). I personally find SDV to have more cheesy elements, (not feeling the sincerity of the emotional ideas being expressed) than any of the above songs. But that's not to say that people won't find plenty of lines in these songs that could be interpreted and experienced quite differently. Eg. "And the darkness turned to pain, and never went away" That's a fairly powerful line isn't it? Quite effective? I guess the part that turns it to cheese, is the "never went away" part, because.. I'm sure that's not true. And it certainly wouldn't be as impactful to say; "The Darkness turned to pain, and eventually went away". It's weird because it isn't/wasn't cheesy if you feel the emotional impact of the line, but if you've experienced if before or something similar, it's not going to have the same impact, and might end up getting filtered through the cheese tube.

So, just trying to consider ways of understanding what it could mean, how many mainstream songs that you hear on the radio do you think are cheesy? Most of them? In fact, I'm guessing a lot of us are very dismissive of certain music because we don't connect to it, or it's familiar in a way that doesn't interest us, but you better bet that someone will think something quite differently. The proof is in the popularity of these pieces, someone is enjoying it on a certain level clearly.

And really trying to understand where the term even came from, think about it, cheese takes time to develop and take form, in it's original form it's not even cheese, it's something else. The first cliché lines weren't clichés until they became relative truth to someone or a group of people, based on stereotypes and points of view. It's inevitable under certain conditions, the cheese will grow, although whether it becomes a classic vintage, or just leave a bitter taste in your mouth, only time will tell.   :justjen

Anyway.. I'm trying to grasp and pinpoint something that is so abstract that I can only try and express how I might personally interpret it, and probably still fail to express myself sufficiently, so my understanding could never encompass the full spectrum of what it might mean to different people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 30, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
@robwebster:
I recently read Orwell's "Politics and the English Language," actually. I think that rule is good in a general sense, but I think it's important to not interpret it as an endorsement of using imprecise short words in place of more precise, evocative longer words. It is certainly good to avoid pointlessly obscure language, though, I agree. Especially when it's actually less connotative, as in your "aesthetically pleasing example."

I have not listened to Grace For Drowning myself, but I have gotten that impression from the press and reviews of that album. But personally, I love The Raven That Refused to Sing, even though it can meander a bit in parts. It was my album of the year for 2013, by a narrow margin.

@Rodni Demental:
Personally, I think with both of the lines you've named ("I'll never be open again" and "The darkness turned to pain and never went away"), the word "never" is not meant to be the evaluation of an objective observer, but a description of the feeling. Said using more words, I think Kevin means that he feels like he'll never be open again. Same with John meaning that it feels like the pain will never go away. Myself, I think it's a particularly emotionally powerful hyperbole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: 425 on May 30, 2014, 09:13:31 AM
I'm completely in agreement with MoraWintersoul here. I have a hard time calling any genuine expression of justified human emotion "cheesy," and Space Dye Vest is written better than the vast majority of emotional songs anyway. I'm sorry, but I can't get along with throwing any sad lyrics into the "emo" bin and labeling it cheesy.

Generally I try to avoid labeling lyrics as "cheesy," because I think there are more descriptive terms for bad lyrics, but if ever I do, it's not going to be an emotional breakup song, it will be something about dragons and swords or whatever. I think when we reach the point when we're labeling a line such as "I'll never be open again," which is emotionally powerful and literarily efficient, descriptive and vivid, as "cheesy," because... I don't really even know why? is a point where we've gone too far in applying that label.

In my book, SDV has among of the best lyrics of any DT song and would be up there with all songs in general. I'd point especially to "I'll never be open again" and "There's nowhere to set my aim, so I'm everywhere/Never come near me again, do you really think I need?" as examples of truly great lines.

Well, my biggest beef is with, "Pool in the shape of a heart". Just seems like it was written so that female listeners would go,  "Oh, he's so broken, he's such a damaged soul! It's okay, Kevy wevy! I will fix you!"  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 30, 2014, 09:18:57 PM
I think that's an interesting thought (and certainly one implied in the testimony of at least one band member: "With false sensitivity/You cut yourself open so people would adore you"). But I also think it is irrelevant to the quality of the line. I don't know how you could call it clichéd, because I've never seen anyone use that particular phrase before, and I don't find it shallow as a line, either. Especially because of the context that he's bleeding—maybe the "x in the shape of a heart" could be hackneyed, but when he's "bleeding a pool," that adds something of a morose element to it which is novel, and, I think, a) fitting with the tone of the song and b) detracting from any feeling that the line was calculated for a stereotypical female audience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 30, 2014, 11:24:20 PM
And again, I wasn't the one who brought the term "Cliché" into the conversation. I just think the line is overly angsty and corny. And besides, I highly doubt that the line is referring to an actual swimming pool. It sounds and fits nicer than "puddle" but even a puddle can be referred to as a pool in looser terms. Hearing that line, I never for a second imagined this "pool" to be bigger than a puddle. Although maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that pool in the shape of a heart is precisely the pool that Conan O'Brian is talking about.  :lol

Either way, you're absolutely right, the way I feel about that line is precisely described in that Raise The Knife verse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 31, 2014, 12:35:06 AM
It's a linguistic technicality, but you're right, "pool" can mean the same thing as "puddle," and I'm almost positive that's how Kevin meant it (not a literal swimming pool, though that is an interesting parallel with the Conan sample that I'd never thought of before). Still, the image of him bleeding enough to cause what could be properly called a "pool" is certainly a morose one. I can see someone objecting to it if they have an issue with the use of descriptions of physical harm to symbolize emotional harm, which some people do find melodramatic and therefore dislike (and that seems to be your objection to it). However, personally, I think such images are often fitting and powerful. And I think Kevin's "pool in the shape of a heart" is one such image.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 31, 2014, 12:37:12 AM
Quote from: 425 on May 30, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
@Rodni Demental:
Personally, I think with both of the lines you've named ("I'll never be open again" and "The darkness turned to pain and never went away"), the word "never" is not meant to be the evaluation of an objective observer, but a description of the feeling. Said using more words, I think Kevin means that he feels like he'll never be open again. Same with John meaning that it feels like the pain will never go away. Myself, I think it's a particularly emotionally powerful hyperbole.

Fair point. Because the other line I have gripe with is "Never come near me again". Sounds really resentful, and even if it's just an expression to symbolise the way the writer felt at that moment, I feel that the residual effect of this sort of statement lingers and ultimately looses it's effect over time because it's a static, unresolved feeling and even as a listener, you won't be stuck on that note forever. I guess the paradox in our difference of opinion is that I am an objective observer whether the writer wanted that or not, but I'm also feeling out the song as I experience it. So perhaps I should appreciate what song is meant to evoke, but I can't really help what that will be on a personal level and I guess that naturally changes over time, at the end of the day, any song won't feel the same way it did the first time you heard it, so I suppose the way it makes you feel after many listens will determine if it stands the test of time. And turn into a good or bad cheese. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 31, 2014, 10:48:14 AM
Quote from: 425 on May 31, 2014, 12:35:06 AM
It's a linguistic technicality, but you're right, "pool" can mean the same thing as "puddle," and I'm almost positive that's how Kevin meant it (not a literal swimming pool, though that is an interesting parallel with the Conan sample that I'd never thought of before). Still, the image of him bleeding enough to cause what could be properly called a "pool" is certainly a morose one. I can see someone objecting to it if they have an issue with the use of descriptions of physical harm to symbolize emotional harm, which some people do find melodramatic and therefore dislike (and that seems to be your objection to it). However, personally, I think such images are often fitting and powerful. And I think Kevin's "pool in the shape of a heart" is one such image.

Yeah, you pretty much summer it up in a nutshell there. It's not the worst, not the most angsty or the most corny heartbreak lyric in the world. But the last time I heard it, it definitely made me cringe. I'd rather take "Mother Mary, quite contrary" any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 06, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Been a while since some controversial opinion, but here it goes: I find it kinda bizarre that a band like Dream Theater has "sound problems" up the wazoo. Like, LALP has shoddy sound, and DT12 is brickwalled beyond recognition with a drum sound from an Alesis drum machine. All that in a band where almost all members are considered "top of the crop".
To drive the point home even further, look at someone like Steven Wilson, who is just one guy, but his albums are aural orgasms. On the other hand Dream Theater has 5 guys, and they can't get good sound. Or don't notice how their visual art has been put together haphazardly (the unicyclist, the first version of the DT12 cover...)

Are DT on autopilot?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 06, 2014, 05:39:46 PM
when it comes to DT12, I think they fell into that "Modern Sound" trap that the older bands fall into like Rush.  Us old farts like sparseness and music, not in your face.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on June 07, 2014, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 06, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Been a while since some controversial opinion, but here it goes: I find it kinda bizarre that a band like Dream Theater has "sound problems" up the wazoo. Like, LALP has shoddy sound, and DT12 is brickwalled beyond recognition with a drum sound from an Alesis drum machine. All that in a band where almost all members are considered "top of the crop".
To drive the point home even further, look at someone like Steven Wilson, who is just one guy, but his albums are aural orgasms. On the other hand Dream Theater has 5 guys, and they can't get good sound. Or don't notice how their visual art has been put together haphazardly (the unicyclist, the first version of the DT12 cover...)

Are DT on autopilot?
Totally agreed. You'd think that a band that has been around for almost 30 years would make good-sounding albums that don't have hastily made artwork. I wouldn't say DT are on autopilot, but it seems that they aren't putting enough effort into some important areas. I think if they wrote all the material before going into the studio, they could focus more on the sound aspect during the recording. They could also pick a more inspired artist like Travis Smith to create the artwork for the next album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 12:32:19 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 06, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Been a while since some controversial opinion, but here it goes: I find it kinda bizarre that a band like Dream Theater has "sound problems" up the wazoo. Like, LALP has shoddy sound, and DT12 is brickwalled beyond recognition with a drum sound from an Alesis drum machine. All that in a band where almost all members are considered "top of the crop".
To drive the point home even further, look at someone like Steven Wilson, who is just one guy, but his albums are aural orgasms. On the other hand Dream Theater has 5 guys, and they can't get good sound. Or don't notice how their visual art has been put together haphazardly (the unicyclist, the first version of the DT12 cover...)

Are DT on autopilot?
They've never had amazing sound - certainly not as long as they've been self-producing (cos I know people quite like FII). I suspect Steven Wilson's albums sound like aural orgasms and are streets ahead of DT's because he's a Grammy-winning music producer who became that good by mixing and mastering pretty much every album he's appeared on since On the Sunday of Life.

You're like one of those pushy parents! "Your friend Steven's doing really well, he came first place in hurdles at sports day, why didn't you come first place in hurdles? Do you have lazy legs, is that it?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on June 07, 2014, 12:40:02 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 31, 2014, 12:37:12 AM
Quote from: 425 on May 30, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
@Rodni Demental:
Personally, I think with both of the lines you've named ("I'll never be open again" and "The darkness turned to pain and never went away"), the word "never" is not meant to be the evaluation of an objective observer, but a description of the feeling. Said using more words, I think Kevin means that he feels like he'll never be open again. Same with John meaning that it feels like the pain will never go away. Myself, I think it's a particularly emotionally powerful hyperbole.

Fair point. Because the other line I have gripe with is "Never come near me again". Sounds really resentful, and even if it's just an expression to symbolise the way the writer felt at that moment, I feel that the residual effect of this sort of statement lingers and ultimately looses it's effect over time because it's a static, unresolved feeling and even as a listener, you won't be stuck on that note forever. I guess the paradox in our difference of opinion is that I am an objective observer whether the writer wanted that or not, but I'm also feeling out the song as I experience it. So perhaps I should appreciate what song is meant to evoke, but I can't really help what that will be on a personal level and I guess that naturally changes over time, at the end of the day, any song won't feel the same way it did the first time you heard it, so I suppose the way it makes you feel after many listens will determine if it stands the test of time. And turn into a good or bad cheese. :P
You are fooling yourself if you think there's such a thing as objectivity when it comes to music.

Quote
"I'll never be open again" might be quite an emotional line, it might be powerful. But not necessarily to everyone. I think the line is cheesy because it sounds like emotional hypocrisy to me as opposed to the sincerity that it's supposed to represent. I don't think anyone could ever say that line with sincerity.
How is that line not sincere? It's a feeling, not a scientific analysis!! Yes, of course the world didn't end, but sometimes you can feel like that, even if it isn't true. If they emotions were rational they wouldn't be called emotions. The song brings the feeling of despair and it does a great job all the way through. I can picture a guy in a small apartment, dishes not washed, everything a mess, a piano on the side, staring numb at a TV and channel surfing at 3 a.m. From the outsider perspective you know "I'll never be open again" it's probably not true, but this is not a song from the outside, and, unlike a lot of Dream Theater songs, it's not a full story, like a movie, it's more a photograph. A photograph of a particular moment, and like every picture, it only shows you a fraction of the truth, but in that particular moment that fraction is all that matters, all your world. It's called obsession, which is one of the main themes of the song.
And it's not meant to be a song for all occasions, in fact no song is, it represents a particular moment in a person's life, but just a moment. Of course it passes, but that's not the point of the song. There's also a thing called "dramatic effect", which a lot of writers use, but this isn't a case for SDV, in fact, it's a very sincere song all the way through, just because you can't relate to it it doesn't make it fake.

Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 12:32:19 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 06, 2014, 05:30:52 PM
Been a while since some controversial opinion, but here it goes: I find it kinda bizarre that a band like Dream Theater has "sound problems" up the wazoo. Like, LALP has shoddy sound, and DT12 is brickwalled beyond recognition with a drum sound from an Alesis drum machine. All that in a band where almost all members are considered "top of the crop".
To drive the point home even further, look at someone like Steven Wilson, who is just one guy, but his albums are aural orgasms. On the other hand Dream Theater has 5 guys, and they can't get good sound. Or don't notice how their visual art has been put together haphazardly (the unicyclist, the first version of the DT12 cover...)

Are DT on autopilot?
They've never had amazing sound - certainly not as long as they've been self-producing (cos I know people quite like FII). I suspect Steven Wilson's albums sound like aural orgasms and are streets ahead of DT's because he's a Grammy-winning music producer who became that good by mixing and mastering pretty much every album he's appeared on since On the Sunday of Life.

You're like one of those pushy parents! "Your friend Steven's doing really well, he came first place in hurdles at sports day, why didn't you come first place in hurdles? Do you have lazy legs, is that it?"
:lol
I agree, they never had a great sound to begin with. Even Awake and FII, the only two I like in terms of production, aren't perfect. I always thought the self production was a bad idea in that aspect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on June 07, 2014, 02:53:42 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 12:32:19 AM
They've never had amazing sound - certainly not as long as they've been self-producing (cos I know people quite like FII). I suspect Steven Wilson's albums sound like aural orgasms and are streets ahead of DT's because he's a Grammy-winning music producer who became that good by mixing and mastering pretty much every album he's appeared on since On the Sunday of Life.
SW may not be the best example for the reasons you mentioned, but I think a fair comparison could be made between DT and OSI: Kevin Moore, Jim Matheos and Gavin Harrison record their parts at their own home studios and only the mixing is done by an actual engineer, yet Blood and Fire Make Thunder sound better than any DT album in the last decade. If some bands can make sonically great albums at home, why can't DT get a good sound in an actual studio? I find FII and Six Degrees pretty well-produced and I'd be happy if the next album sounded as good as those two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 05:06:53 AM
Kevin Moore is a marginally fairer comparison... but not much. KevMo's not been nominated for awards, but you're still comparing a band of musician/songwriters to a passionate producer/engineer with a good fifteen albums' experience under his belt. Music engineer in better-at-mixing-than-guitarist shocker!

It's not the conclusion that one's better than the other that's wrong - I agree, SW and KevMo release better-sounding albums - but the contention that they're getting lazier because they're continuing to not excel at something they've never really excelled at is a really spurious argument. And yet, somehow, not the most inane in that post - I disregarded the cover art thing as it didn't really bear discussion, but if we're on the subject, Octavarium's far and away the most effort they've ever put into any album booklet and they had to fix that one up after its original reveal, too. It's fine to have a pet theory, but the attempts to produce evidence for it are really not doing it much credit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 07, 2014, 06:22:12 AM
I've certainly felt that DT has had their share of "cheesy" lyrics, but SDV was never, ever under consideration for that label.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 07, 2014, 09:13:13 AM
I think all this discussion about Dt not having good sound is WAYYYY overblown.  Granted, I am not an audiophile but considering I own nearly 2000 CDs, including everything from 60s rock, to 80s rap, to classical and pop, underground metal and grunge,  I think I have an above average knowledge of great sound versus bad sound.  Dream Theater at a bare minimum has very good sound.  The only one that can be considered bad is WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on June 07, 2014, 09:25:26 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on June 07, 2014, 09:13:13 AM
I think all this discussion about Dt not having good sound is WAYYYY overblown.  Granted, I am not an audiophile but considering I own nearly 2000 CDs, including everything from 60s rock, to 80s rap, to classical and pop, underground metal and grunge,  I think I have an above average knowledge of great sound versus bad sound. Dream Theater at a bare minimum has very good sound.  The only one that can be considered bad is WDADU.

The last two albums cannot be considered "very good" sounding, in my opinion. There are many flaws, and it's a pity since they seem to spend a lot of money on making an album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:27:00 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 05:06:53 AM
Kevin Moore is a marginally fairer comparison... but not much. KevMo's not been nominated for awards, but you're still comparing a band of musician/songwriters to a passionate producer/engineer with a good fifteen albums' experience under his belt. Music engineer in better-at-mixing-than-guitarist shocker!

Rob, sometime I find you're going a bit overboard with defending DT. In my opinion, there is absolutely no excuse for DT for releasing bad-sounding albums (and DT12 and LALP really count as such). Because, mixing and producing is not something they have to do. If this was an argument about "JP's playing is sloppy" that would be a moot discussion because there would be nothing anybody can do about it. JP is the guitarist of the band and he has to record the takes for the album, so if his playing wasn't up to snuff, that would be the extent of it.
However, DT doesn't need to mix and produce their albums. In fact, as we all know, they didn't use to, with much better results. It's a bit like MP deciding at some point to do backing vocals live, where the result was pretty shoddy for a loong time and marred many a live recording.
My overall point is, be it laziness or hubris, a band of 5 top musicians really has no excuse to produce sub-standard work. And sub-standard it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 07, 2014, 09:35:46 AM
I'm with rumborak here.  Like he said, there is no excuse for how mediocre some of their albums sound from a production/mixing standpoint over the last 15 years.  No, most aren't gonna have stuff that sounds as awesome as Steven Wilson's albums always do, but still, they should be able to do better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:27:00 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 05:06:53 AM
Kevin Moore is a marginally fairer comparison... but not much. KevMo's not been nominated for awards, but you're still comparing a band of musician/songwriters to a passionate producer/engineer with a good fifteen albums' experience under his belt. Music engineer in better-at-mixing-than-guitarist shocker!

Rob, sometime I find you're going a bit overboard with defending DT.
By... agreeing that they do sound worse than the examples you put forward, and calling out wild exaggerations? Yeah, I'm a real hyperactive fanboy.

SW isn't industry standard. He's award-winning internationally-recognised exceptional. If you're pulling out SW as an example to demonstrate that DT are sub-standard, you're not just setting your standard high, you're setting it delusionally high. DT's sound is about average - neither impressive nor appalling. Workmanlike... but it's always been workmanlike. The conclusion that they've stopped trying really doesn't fit the facts - they're putting forth about as much effort as they always have in that department.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 07, 2014, 10:45:38 AM
Can we back of the SW love just a little bit?  His mixes have flaws.  The Incident sounds like garbage.

EDIT - Just made the mistake of listening to The Incident's title track again.  Why are all the instruments very wet, with a low of their low end scooped out, and Wilson's vocals have seemingly no reverb and a lot of their bass frequencies let in?

I like SW's mixing.  FOABP is one of the best sounding albums I've ever heard.  But he's no engineering hero.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 10:49:19 AM
I agree, and I'd add that Fear of a Blank Planet is so dynamic that it's a bit of a chore to listen to in any real life situation - in a car, at night, anything aside from lab conditions - but I suspect it's not The Incident that A Dramatic Turn of Events and DTXII are being compared to. Fair enough, though: Steven Wilson, on a good day, is absolutely stupendous at his job, and like-for-like, The Raven that Refused to Sing sounds thoroughly beautiful, whereas Dream Theater's latest album just sounds fine.

Of course, you could argue that The Incident is far closer to Dream Theater's style of music than TRTRTS is, so it might be a fairer comparison. Actually, DT sort of beat Porcupine Tree to The Incident with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - a thematic and continuous title-disc, to be consumed as one piece but indexed separately should you choose to listen to the songs individually, packaged alongside an anthology of unrelated songs that are still part of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 07, 2014, 10:54:27 AM
And why are the guitars in The Incident so loud?

DT's albums have a lot of problems with their sound quality.  I think DT12's sound is underrated, but I get it.

But when you talk about SW like some kind of genius, it shows you guys have your own biases too.

It bothers me so much because I guess I'm just surprised you guys can't hear this stuff.  It's really obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
SW isn't industry standard. He's award-winning internationally-recognised exceptional.

And believe it or not, Dream Theater rakes in a *ton* of money, enough money to apparently rent a professional studio in New York (of all places) for months. And more than enough money to hire a top-notch producer that would get them a good sound.

So, if you don't like the conclusion that they're on autopilot, the only two remaining conclusions to me are 1) they don't hear it or 2) they don't care (in the sense of "yeah, we know it's shoddy sound, but that's what sells these days")
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on June 07, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
I can easily lean towards the latter option, although not exactly the way you phrased it, but something along the lines of "let's sound trendy, modern...proactive...paradigm!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 01:51:27 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
SW isn't industry standard. He's award-winning internationally-recognised exceptional.

And believe it or not, Dream Theater rakes in a *ton* of money, enough money to apparently rent a professional studio in New York (of all places) for months. And more than enough money to hire a top-notch producer that would get them a good sound.

So, if you don't like the conclusion that they're on autopilot, the only two remaining conclusions to me are 1) they don't hear it or 2) they don't care (in the sense of "yeah, we know it's shoddy sound, but that's what sells these days")
We're looking at some fairer conclusions, here. I'd say it's a little from column B, but mostly column A. If they were chasing trends they wouldn't be writing progressive metal, that doesn't really have a ring of truth to it, though I'm sure there is an element of "Loud is striking, metal is loud" - but when you're close to something, you lose perspective, and they're just not as adept at standing apart, seeing the bigger picture and finding that sweet spot as an artist like Steven Wilson is.

Or in other words, they're not as good at mixing because they're... not as good at mixing! They can do it decently well to an industry standard, but we've never had a DT album where everything sounds pristine and clear and gorgeous. I think you're massively overestimating how easy it is to make an album sound like The Raven that Refused to Sing, though.

NB: Throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away. Companies spend billions of pounds/dollars/euros/rupees on advertising campaigns that completely bomb, and members of the public can make a viral hit with a webcam and an internet connection. It's as much an art as a science, and an artist won't make better art the more you pay them. As ReaPsTA says, Steven Wilson has had some real off-days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 07, 2014, 01:56:18 PM
Perhaps, but for them, at this stage of their careers, to release an album as muddy-sounding as ADTOE is a major WTF; same with Rush's Clockwork Angels.  I love both of those records, but both should sound so much better.  I blame Roadrunner. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 07, 2014, 02:01:03 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 11:34:38 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
SW isn't industry standard. He's award-winning internationally-recognised exceptional.

And believe it or not, Dream Theater rakes in a *ton* of money, enough money to apparently rent a professional studio in New York (of all places) for months. And more than enough money to hire a top-notch producer that would get them a good sound.

The recent Paul Northfield interview had this issue addressed and he said that studios now cost 1/3 of what they used to. 
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 11:34:38 AM
So, if you don't like the conclusion that they're on autopilot, the only two remaining conclusions to me are 1) they don't hear it or 2) they don't care (in the sense of "yeah, we know it's shoddy sound, but that's what sells these days")

orrrrrrr 3) The issue is way overblown by the fans and it is not much of an issue at all

Option 3 is what I'm going with
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 02:05:19 PM
Definitely - but that does fall under 1) they don't hear it! They don't hear it, the fans don't hear it, most people don't hear it cos they're not listening to the album in that way. That's not to say the problems aren't there, but their mixes are average at worst, rarely if ever abominable. It's fair to say there's flaws with all of them, but it's also telling that nobody can really agree on what the worst-mixed album is. There's no Vapor Trails.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 07, 2014, 03:02:18 PM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 01:51:27 PM
Or in other words, they're not as good at mixing because they're... not as good at mixing! They can do it decently well to an industry standard, but we've never had a DT album where everything sounds pristine and clear and gorgeous. I think you're massively overestimating how easy it is to make an album sound like The Raven that Refused to Sing, though.

I&W, Awake, and FII are all pretty good sounding albums, and the band had little to no control over how they sounded (they were actually kicked out of the Awake mixing session).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on June 07, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 07, 2014, 01:56:18 PM
Perhaps, but for them, at this stage of their careers, to release an album as muddy-sounding as ADTOE is a major WTF; same with Rush's Clockwork Angels.  I love both of those records, but both should sound so much better.  I blame Roadrunner. :lol :lol

That's the thing, though.  I don't know why we're expecting Rush or DT to have really good production.  They're obviously not snobs for sound quality.  Wilson is a sound-quality snob, but he's exceptional.  That's not the status quo these days.  A great musician is not a great producer, and it's an uncommon musician that has a really good ear for production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2014, 04:53:56 PM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 05:06:53 AM
Kevin Moore is a marginally fairer comparison... but not much. KevMo's not been nominated for awards, but you're still comparing a band of musician/songwriters to a passionate producer/engineer with a good fifteen albums' experience under his belt. Music engineer in better-at-mixing-than-guitarist shocker!

It's not the conclusion that one's better than the other that's wrong - I agree, SW and KevMo release better-sounding albums - but the contention that they're getting lazier because they're continuing to not excel at something they've never really excelled at is a really spurious argument. And yet, somehow, not the most inane in that post - I disregarded the cover art thing as it didn't really bear discussion, but if we're on the subject, Octavarium's far and away the most effort they've ever put into any album booklet and they had to fix that one up after its original reveal, too. It's fine to have a pet theory, but the attempts to produce evidence for it are really not doing it much credit.
KevMo's involvement in producing/engineering over the years has been about as big as JP's actually - for the first two Chroma Key albums, he's had the major help of Steve Tushar, and he's only done one Chroma Key record and two soundtracks all alone or with marginal help. But they are all very low-key records, as good as they sound.  OSI's production can be compared to DT's, those records sound gorgeous, and that's something Kevin and Jim Matheos do together - but when it's time to do the drum sound and how it fits into the bigger picture, they usually call someone else, because they admit that's something they don't really know how to do.

So, the difference between Kevin/Jim and JP is that they're good at knowing what their weak spot is, and who to call to get it perfectly right. But I don't blame JP for any faulty producing or whatever. Just because he's a musician, it doesn't mean he's an audiophile.

And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else. Loudness is the industry standard now, even though now it has been rendered unnecessary for the most part. Maybe someday soon it will go away, but until then expect compression and learn to deal with it. Hearing this over and over is kind of like hearing my grandma complaining today's furniture isn't as sturdy as it used to be - of course it isn't, they're making it so on purpose, so you could replace it sooner, that's what it's for, that's how the world is turning nowadays.

In my head, exceptional producing is as hard to run across as exceptional songwriting - a lot of the stuff that comes out every year will just sound substandard. Only a few dozen will have that immaculate sound. Sadly, a lot of those which have immaculate sound won't be the ones with the songwriting which appeals most to you or in the genre you're looking for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on June 07, 2014, 05:30:44 PM
The only time I had a problem with DT's sound was the day I first heard DT12, on soundcloud. First and only, and on a platform that was highly detrimental to the quality. I have never had a problem with how the two most recent albums sounded, and whatever production/mixing gap there may be between those two and the aforementioned SW releases, it wasn't so clear and audible to my ears to be bothersome.

So, either: 1- my ear is exceptionally uneducated or unresponsive to be unable to tell between canned tuna and ventresca, or 2- I'm somewhat in the average with regard to this , which would make pursuing certain standards of prduction a pure mannerism of style being that it's not clearly already on the top of the band's list of priorities. I'm leaning on a mix of the two, really. I am aware I'm not the most audio-sensitive person around (I can barely hear the difference between an mp3 and a lossless stream), but I'm with Milena when she says that those who are bothered by the supposedly bad sound are but a small percentage of the fandom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 07, 2014, 06:03:38 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on June 07, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
That's the thing, though.  I don't know why we're expecting Rush or DT to have really good production.  They're obviously not snobs for sound quality.  Wilson is a sound-quality snob, but he's exceptional.  That's not the status quo these days.  A great musician is not a great producer, and it's an uncommon musician that has a really good ear for production.

The problem is that, when you listen to them talk about their, you can tell they care a lot about how it sounds.  If they care that much, and the product still isn't turning out as well as it can, then something's wrong with the process.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 07, 2014, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: robwebster on June 07, 2014, 02:05:19 PM
Definitely - but that does fall under 1) they don't hear it! They don't hear it, the fans don't hear it, most people don't hear it cos they're not listening to the album in that way. That's not to say the problems aren't there, but their mixes are average at worst, rarely if ever abominable. It's fair to say there's flaws with all of them, but it's also telling that nobody can really agree on what the worst-mixed album is. There's no Vapor Trails.

Exactly! 

I have a friend that has a small time (read: REALLY small time) recording studio but he obviously has a good enough ear to get people to pay him money to come record (most rap to his chagrin) at his apartment.  He complained about the over processing that Dream Theater does and even though he obviously knows more about sound engineering than me, he used the exact same arguments, nearly word for word, that I read on the internet. 

Now, I get the loudness war and I can tell the difference between a "loud" mastering job and a "traditional non-loud job", Dream Theater has been one of lesser offenders in my eyes/ears, even though I can tell a slight difference, but with how much care Dream Theater puts into their records, I wouldn't doubt if they are aware but it is one of the concessions they make for whatever reason (money? time?) and simply do not pay much mind to the extremely small percentage of fans who are outraged. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 07, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
Honestly, while I typically side with robwebster just in all things and I typically am more defensive than critical of Dream Theater, I'm going to have to generally lean in the other direction with this one.

First a word on mastering:
I don't mind a slightly loud master if it's well done (I'm talking like Falling Into Infinity), but yes, I am bothered by crappy mastering. Systematic Chaos and Dream Theater would give me a headache before I downloaded the HDTracks versions. And yes, the HDTracks solves some of this, but it's damn expensive, and so it's a ridiculous cost for people like me who like to have the CD and the booklet and all. I really don't get why there has to be a special download for the good-sounding version.

If you don't hear it, that's great. I'm not being sarcastic or flippant, I mean that really is great for you. I wish I also couldn't hear it. But it's really not any harder to master it in such a way that it sounds good to everyone, so it frustrates me that they don't do that.


On the mix, I really do not like the mixes for the last two albums at all. I'm not an expert so I'm not sure if something can be objectively said to be poorly done, but a lot of people here do seem to be saying that, so if they're right, then I agree that DT and Roadrunner really do need to get things together and improve that state of affairs. There's no way they don't have the money to hire a good mixer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2014, 04:53:56 PM
And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else.

This might be the key in this whole thing. Those "few thousand audiophiles" used to be DT's core market, i.e. us, the die-hard fans that would show up show after show over the years, wanting the perfect fusion of skill, sound and complexity.
I don't think we're the core target audience anymore. DT has gone mainstream with RoadRunner, and that means more metal, more compression, more leather.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 07, 2014, 08:09:53 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 07, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
But it's really not any harder to master it in such a way that it sounds good to everyone, so it frustrates me that they don't do that.



Then why wouldn't they?  Theres gotta be more to it than that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on June 07, 2014, 08:39:48 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2014, 04:53:56 PM
And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else.

This might be the key in this whole thing. Those "few thousand audiophiles" used to be DT's core market

Really?  Because as far as I can tell, DT's sound has never been audiophile quality. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:06:45 PM
Man, you know what I meant. The original core market of Dream Theater was "audiophile" in the sense that it was coming from the prog scene and wanted clear, lush, complex soundscapes.  Sound discussions were not an issue in the past, that's for sure. Sure, FII stood out as particularly awesome, but discussions about albums back in the day were almost solely about the songs themselves, not what they are today, which is half about the songs and half about the massive amount of compression and bad sound of the instruments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on June 07, 2014, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:06:45 PM
Man, you know what I meant. The original core market of Dream Theater was "audiophile" in the sense that it was coming from the prog scene and wanted clear, lush, complex soundscapes.  Sound discussions were not an issue in the past, that's for sure. Sure, FII stood out as particularly awesome, but discussions about albums back in the day were almost solely about the songs themselves, not what they are today, which is half about the songs and half about the massive amount of compression and bad sound of the instruments.

What I'm saying is that I don't think the audiophile was ever DT's core market.  I think DT's core audience has always cared a lot more about musicianship than sound quality.  And I count myself among that group - I really don't care about mixing and mastering and production issues.  The music is all that matters to me.  I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, of course.  I just can't agree with this idea that DT has alienated their die-hard fans by not having great production.  A lot of the die-hard fans started being die-hard fans with WDADU, after all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.
Also, I would never consider myself a true audiophile either given how I listen to bands from the 70s with very mediocre sound, but DT12 made me an "audiophile". I have put the album on randomly over the last few months while at work, alongside other DT albums, and it *always* stood out as causing major ear fatigue. By the time IT's orchestral section comes around it's like coming out of a really loud bar where you suddenly realize how oppressively loud the last hour was.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on June 07, 2014, 10:02:30 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you aren't speaking for all of us.  Yes, there are people on this forum who has issues with the sound quality of DT's latest albums, but there are also people here who defend DT and say those issues are overblown - as evidenced by this thread.

But I'm gonna shush now.  I'm not really reacting to the substance of what you're trying to say, more to an attitude I sense in the way you're saying it.  Ignore me!   :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on June 07, 2014, 10:27:36 PM
I can recognise some of the issues when it's pointed out, but production is generally not my first consideration when I listen to an album unless it's obviously substandard or made with inferior technology. I didn't give two hoots about the production quality of ADTOE/DT12 or Luna Park, I mean, I know it would be nice if the sound was expressed more delicately sometimes for an 'ultimate listening experience' so to speak, other than actually seeing them live. But I think the original core fanbase that were die hard about DT were more appreciative of the compositional structure and the complex arrangement of musical patterns among different instruments, rather than the presentation of these ideas, which as mentioned probably didn't occur as much back then regarding the production quality. Attending a concert is also different, because it's about the music and a lot of these people are more interested in the theoretical structure of the music, what the chord shifts are, how crazy the guitar solo is, probably trying to learn how to play the songs themselves and express it in their own way. I just wouldn't want to let production alter my judgement too much regarding how I would feel about a song.

Quote from: Invisible on June 07, 2014, 12:40:02 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on May 31, 2014, 12:37:12 AM
I guess the paradox in our difference of opinion is that I am an objective observer whether the writer wanted that or not, but I'm also feeling out the song as I experience it. So perhaps I should appreciate what song is meant to evoke, but I can't really help what that will be on a personal level and I guess that naturally changes over time, at the end of the day, any song won't feel the same way it did the first time you heard it, so I suppose the way it makes you feel after many listens will determine if it stands the test of time. And turn into a good or bad cheese. :P
You are fooling yourself if you think there's such a thing as objectivity when it comes to music.

Just wanted to say, it wasn't objectivity regarding the music because I understand that doesn't really exist, it was in the sense that I AM an objective observer from the outside (as we are we all). The subjectivity is in the interpretation and communication of those ideas, but you can objectively listen with no personal attachments or emotional investment to a song (much unlike the writer), right up until you have a personal experience which kinda happens the first time you hear something unless you're really not tuned in or focusing on the song at all. But objectivity goes out the window as soon as emotions come into play, and any way to agree on what it's about. But truth is a lot of writers could not possibly intend all the unrelated connections that every different person might experience from their music.

Quote from: Invisible on June 07, 2014, 12:40:02 AM
How is that line not sincere? It's a feeling, not a scientific analysis!! Yes, of course the world didn't end, but sometimes you can feel like that, even if it isn't true. If they emotions were rational they wouldn't be called emotions. The song brings the feeling of despair and it does a great job all the way through. I can picture a guy in a small apartment, dishes not washed, everything a mess, a piano on the side, staring numb at a TV and channel surfing at 3 a.m. From the outsider perspective you know "I'll never be open again" it's probably not true, but this is not a song from the outside, and, unlike a lot of Dream Theater songs, it's not a full story, like a movie, it's more a photograph. A photograph of a particular moment, and like every picture, it only shows you a fraction of the truth, but in that particular moment that fraction is all that matters, all your world. It's called obsession, which is one of the main themes of the song.
And it's not meant to be a song for all occasions, in fact no song is, it represents a particular moment in a person's life, but just a moment. Of course it passes, but that's not the point of the song. There's also a thing called "dramatic effect", which a lot of writers use, but this isn't a case for SDV, in fact, it's a very sincere song all the way through, just because you can't relate to it it doesn't make it fake.

Completely agree with pretty much everything you said here, except to me, the lack of sincerity was my experience from the line. Maybe I'm less likely to believe something that starts with the idea of never, I suppose there's a lot of time between the ideas of never, now and forever, so when that line gets filtered through my belief system through my experience, it didn't feel sincere. But in all fairness, I'm skipping out the part where it's still possible for it to originally have been from a sincere place. But I'm my own objective observer and if I'm going to be told an incomplete story, then like anyone I'm going to naturally, even if roughly, fill in the gaps. I wouldn't mean to take anything away from how anyone else feels from their experiences with the song though..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on June 07, 2014, 10:58:38 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 07, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
I don't mind a slightly loud master if it's well done (I'm talking like Falling Into Infinity)
Exactly. I do find DT12 unnecessarily loud, but it's the sound itself that bothers me more, or at least the drums. I'm not an audiophile who listens to LPs and 5.1 mixes in a candle-lit room with his eyes closed, but I'm a music fan who wants to hear decent-sounding records.

I don't mind the production of WDADU, because it was recorded 25 years ago and they had a minimal budget, but DT12 was recorded last year and they spent months working on it, yet it sounds mediocre at best by today's standards. It's frustrating because you know DT can do better (see: Awake, FII, SDOIT) and even James' latest two albums sound great - hell, they were released within the past 4 years like ADTOE and DT12! Is it unrealistic to expect well-produced records from a big progressive metal band that has 12 studio albums under its belt? You know something is wrong when loads of younger and smaller bands make better-sounding releases in their home studios.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on June 07, 2014, 11:38:49 PM
Quote from: ? on June 07, 2014, 10:58:38 PM
It's frustrating because you know DT can do better (see: Awake, FII, SDOIT, I&W, TOT, 8VM)
Fixed.

I might say BCASL, SC, ADTOE, and SFAM have better sound.

I am a big fan of the songs themselves, and I don't even hate the drum sound the way some people do, but it does seem like white noise. It's just loud and muddy (or sounds like that to me). I'm sure the HDTracks version clears some of that up, but I already bought the CD. I don't think I should spend another $20 to make it sound like it could have in the first place. It's the only album I listen to (I don't listen to WDADU) that actively annoys me with sound quality. Every other album to me sounds open and big, like it's exploring. DT12 sounds rather like it was recorded in a cardboard box.

I rank it 4th though, I still love it to death.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on June 07, 2014, 11:49:26 PM
As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on June 08, 2014, 12:00:20 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on June 07, 2014, 11:49:26 PM
As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.
I'll go with you on that, but I still think it sounds more crisp and perty that DT12. That's nothing more than my opinion though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 08, 2014, 12:07:07 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on June 07, 2014, 11:49:26 PM
As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.

I don't think Awake is one of the better produced albums of the era (the first half of the '90s is my favourite for album production), but average production for 1994 is much better than the average production of 2014, sadly.
Awake is a bit too reverbed for my tastes, which takes the edge off the drums and guitars, but otherwise it's a good sounding album. I'd easily say it sounds better than the last several DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 02:36:34 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 07, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.
Also, I would never consider myself a true audiophile either given how I listen to bands from the 70s with very mediocre sound, but DT12 made me an "audiophile". I have put the album on randomly over the last few months while at work, alongside other DT albums, and it *always* stood out as causing major ear fatigue. By the time IT's orchestral section comes around it's like coming out of a really loud bar where you suddenly realize how oppressively loud the last hour was.
The people who buy the tickets,

If they were marketing their music, their tour, their VIP meet-and-greets, their box-sets, their . Don't make the mistake, either, of thinking that because we talk about them more that means we like them more - but you seem to constantly come at things from the angle that their core audience is basically people who think like you. "They're a legacy band now, people only want to hear the classics," "Who'd possibly sign off on that mix." "People" are quite transparently an avatar for yourself, and I regret that it really is myopia. Even if it were a metaphor for this message board - a. you've been challenged by about as many people as have agreed with you, and b. we're still a tiny and unrepresentative sample. There are so many more people with so many more tastes and opinions than are ever represented on this message board.

We are mice in a maze! Last.FM's just a sample, too, but it's a sample that's listened to A Nightmare to Remember, The Dark Eternal Night, Endless Sacrifice, Constant Motion, Octavarium, Build Me Up Break Me Down (https://www.last.fm/music/Dream+Theater/+charts?rangetype=week&subtype=tracks) et al. more times this week than anything from Awake.

(https://i60.tinypic.com/2m7zxvt.jpg)

We are small and very skewed. Actually, we number about 4,000, fewer of which are particularly active - if we were at the heart of their business strategy, they'd be screwed! We're at the obsessive fringe, and obsession is not love, just as the collector of mint condition limited edition action figures sealed in their perfect packaging doesn't love his collection more than the kids who would unwrap them and play with them. Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated, just try to keep in mind that you are not the average DT fan, you are not speaking for a silent majority, and the band are not aiming their music squarely at you. You're special! Feel it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 08, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.
Also, I don't think you got my point of "we, who *used* to be their core market, no longer are". My point is that that's exactly the reason why DT would consciously mangle an album's sound to appeal to more casual metal fans.

Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 02:36:34 AM
Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated

Duuuude, I can't fathom you wrote that. Thank you oh robwebster for appreciating my opinion :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaffa on June 08, 2014, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 08, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.

What about the people on this forum who are saying that DT12's sound is okay?  How do you write them off?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 08, 2014, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: Jaffa on June 08, 2014, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 08, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.

What about the people on this forum who are saying that DT12's sound is okay?  How do you write them off?

Not that I'm writing them off, but for the most part I've seen comments like "yeah, it's not good sound, but I don't care". Which is I guess a sort of "tolerance" to the sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 08, 2014, 08:58:24 AM
I like DT12 but I do miss the dynamics in their sound.  To hear the instruments breath again but it's not the end of the world for me but I get where both sides are coming from.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on June 08, 2014, 10:29:42 AM
DT12 doesn't have my favourite album production from DT (that would belong to FII and SDOIT) but I like it. The only real issue I have is spots where the guitar only comes out of one speaker for a phrase (ie. beginning of DAT riff in Illumination Theory) and it sounds really clipped, but then once it goes stereo it's fine. Other than that, I can deal with the compression. As for the mix, it's a pretty good mix. It's very balanced across the album. The vocals sound the more like JLB's live voice than any other album I've heard him on. The guitar is creamy chocolate cake, as we know. :P The keyboards aren't quite as prominent as ADTOE, but prominent enough. There are maybe a couple spots where they could have been brought forward more, like the fast second verse of The Looking Glass. As for drums, the snare sounded a little silly to me at first, but I quickly got used to it and it doesn't really bother me. The other drums sound great, and have lots of volume like all of the MP albums.

Speaking of the snare, there is a particular moment where it sounds like the 80s snare from Images and Words. In Surrender to Reason, after the opening part (which is also the outro), right before going into the really Rush-inspired riff, the snare pound sounds like it has reverb on it and it gave me that impression. Anyone else feel that way?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: rumborak on June 08, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 02:36:34 AM
Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated

Duuuude, I can't fathom you wrote that. Thank you oh robwebster for appreciating my opinion :rollin
I'm trying to keep it a discussion, rather than turn it into an argument, and pinpoint the fact that I'm not side-eyeing your opinions so much as your attempts to turn them into facts. That was a bit patronising on my part, but you are making it quite difficult!

Either way, yes, I'm sure your twenty-or-so mates are a fair sample who have very little in common with you. They're representative, diverse and statistically useful - the Burger King Kids Club Gang of DT fans, humanity in microcosm. Seriously?! "My mates all agree with me" is a properly flimsy argument, it's about as scientific as "I heard it in a pub." Of course they're likely to agree with you, they're your mates. No, they won't agree with you on everything, but they're people you get along with, they share common interests, can you not see how they might be among the least useful brands of anecdotal evidence? It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

Cos it's not an isolated incident, it's this constant hum - you turn up, every few days, super proud of this new scrap of evidence that will somehow prove, once and for all, that the scales have lifted, that you're saying what everyone else is secretly thinking - that the fans mostly think like you, DT are aware they all think like you, so they're quietly wrapping their career up.... but the evidence is, let's face it, never particularly convincing. Since you decided you were over the band, you've just started suffixing every Dream Theater fact with, "Therefore - DOOM!" They've released a studio album collection - their third or fourth, but this one means they're doomed. They're playing anniversary sets, this is because they're now a legacy band and know nobody's interested in the new album. (Which they are airing 70% of, every night, plus a further twenty minutes of the album before, vs. nothing at all from Images & Words, but still - DOOM!)

It's not complete nonsense, they are absolutely steadying the pace a bit - as most bands quite understandably do when they're pushing 50 - but you do seem to be warping facts to try and make them fit the conclusion in your head, then getting really spiky and defensive when someone challenges you - your reaction to "The production hasn't really changed much since 1999" was "WHOA THERE, FANBOY!" Yes, you're saying weird things, I'm calling you on them! Fine to think the best days of the band are behind them, fine to enjoy the old stuff and see no merit in the new stuff - hey, shame about the new stuff, but that's still a decade or two of badass music! What I'm objecting to, and I wanted to be quite clear about this, is this baffling crusade to find evidence that will somehow verify your opinion... just, chill out, man! Enjoy having the opinion! It doesn't need validating, and even if it did, you're not going to substantiate it by Inspector Clouseauing up a bunch of fairly suspect clues - least of all, "All my friends agree with me, but I suppose that must just be a coincidence, hmm?!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on June 08, 2014, 11:46:16 AM
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on June 08, 2014, 12:27:44 PM
Quote from: Lucien on June 08, 2014, 11:46:16 AM
:clap:

Wait... robwebster has gonnorhea? :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on June 08, 2014, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: Lucien on June 08, 2014, 11:46:16 AM
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 08, 2014, 06:45:09 PM
Why would they wanna try and consciously mangle their sound to appeal to an audience that is apparently so audio-ignorant that they probably wouldn't notice much of a difference with more "conscious" mastering? I get it, it's a good narrative, but it's just that DT's albums have always sounded exactly like the year they were published in. Non-compressed to death stuff is pretty rare nowadays, you guys.

Yeah, some of the other compressed stuff I listen to sounds better than DT (everything Jens Bogren does sounds awesome, but it's not the most dynamic), but that's because I'm not as detail oriented when I'm not trying to pay attention to every possible aspect of the playing like I am with a band I like to analyze to death. And because other types of music lend themselves better to that sorta thing than prog.

I'll say it again: Asking why every album can't come with an above average production job is like asking why every album can't come with above average songwriting. The word average loses its meaning. Sometimes albums you love will not go against the grain, simply because sometimes people who make them don't want them to go against the grain, and that's it, both production-wise and song-wise.

edited again: don't get me wrong, I too wanted a better and clearer sound, especially after ADTOE's limpy drums. Maybe I'm just not bothered by this too much because the last time I listened to DT12 was like last year or something. But it's just that, DT's albums have always sounded average (with a few exceptions), or at least were faulty in a way that was common in the era. Some people can tolerate IAW's 80's finish, some people can tolerate the boom pow metal attack of the RR era. But there is almost always something to tolerate. And it doesn't have much to do with how much money they have, if they won't throw it at an uncommon producer we all like. They'll throw it at someone they like, and that someone is less likely to go against the grain, because of that pesky probability thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on June 08, 2014, 07:07:29 PM
I fail to see how "consciously mangling their sound" would appeal to people anyway. I don't often find people saying they don't listen to a band because their albums sound too clear, or aren't loud enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 10, 2014, 08:33:51 AM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on June 07, 2014, 11:38:49 PM
I am a big fan of the songs themselves, and I don't even hate the drum sound the way some people do, but it does seem like white noise. It's just loud and muddy (or sounds like that to me). I'm sure the HDTracks version clears some of that up, but I already bought the CD. I don't think I should spend another $20 to make it sound like it could have in the first place. It's the only album I listen to (I don't listen to WDADU) that actively annoys me with sound quality. Every other album to me sounds open and big, like it's exploring. DT12 sounds rather like it was recorded in a cardboard box.

The HDTracks improves the loud master situation but not the mediocre mix situation. I would only advise getting it if you get fatigue from listening to the CD version. If you do, then the HDTracks will probably improvise the situation some. If you think it sounds crummy, but your problem is not that listening to it actually gives you a headache or wears out your ears, then the HDTracks won't be worth it because you will still think it sounds crummy on the HDTracks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 10, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: commanderbob on June 10, 2014, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 10, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.

I think so too.  However, this typo:
Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

......makes it even better since I'm picturing Eddie Vedder wielding veggie weapons with that crazy grin of his.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 10, 2014, 11:52:01 AM
I just figured it was British slang for some veggie or the other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 10, 2014, 12:01:53 PM
I would think so.  Hopefully it's something badass, like chard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 10, 2014, 02:14:19 PM
I thought a flannel was a sack. NO?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on June 16, 2014, 08:06:54 PM
I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on June 16, 2014, 08:23:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on June 16, 2014, 08:06:54 PM
I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!

YES! It totally is, completely mind-blowing really.

Reminds me a little bit of CM keyboard solo and I was really glad to hear JR classic solo synth tone in EM and IT because I was afraid he had gone off it after not really hearing it in ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: carl320 on June 16, 2014, 10:51:33 PM
The Great Debate is a very good song, but when the keyboard solo starts, the feel of the song completely changes and I really liked it.  When the guitar solo starts, the feel comes back and the song finishes strong.  That keyboard solo really seems out of place and I don't like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on June 17, 2014, 11:15:54 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on June 16, 2014, 08:06:54 PM
I'll keep it short and sweet:

Jordan Rudess' solo section in A Rite of Passage is awesome!

I didn't like the Bebot solo when I heard it on the album but it was so amazing hearing it live that it changed my mind and now I like it lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on June 17, 2014, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: carl320 on June 16, 2014, 10:51:33 PM
The Great Debate is a very good song, but when the keyboard solo starts, the feel of the song completely changes and I really liked it.  When the guitar solo starts, the feel comes back and the song finishes strong.  That keyboard solo really seems out of place and I don't like it.

Yeah, it does introduce a very different mood. I always really liked how it transitioned into 4/4 for the guitar solo though, that's one of the coolest parts of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on June 17, 2014, 09:51:50 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 10, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: robwebster on June 08, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

This may be the best thing I have ever read since...ever.

I don't even need to know the context, this wins any argument it comes up in.  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on June 18, 2014, 12:12:03 PM
I thought Trial of Tears perfectly fits DT12 due to its mood and everything maybe even LITS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 21, 2014, 08:28:53 PM
Here's an opinion of mine, which I think is a bit controversial, that I thought of while listening to Black Clouds & Silver Linings again, inspired by the recent thread about that album:

The Shattered Fortress is what the band intended it to be: a well-structured finale to the Twelve-Step Suite that calls back to the other songs while existing as its own original musical entity, NOT a poorly made mish-mash of riffs. It's also one of the best songs in the suite. They fluctuate in my esteem (for example, I was really hot on The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil and cold on This Dying Soul and Repentance for a while, now it's basically flipped), but The Shattered Fortress is the only one that I consistently love without qualms and has never been outside of my top 3 in the suite (currently: TDS, TSF, TGP, Repentance, TROAE).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on June 21, 2014, 08:46:25 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 21, 2014, 08:28:53 PM
The Shattered Fortress is what the band intended it to be: a well-structured finale to the Twelve-Step Suite that calls back to the other songs while existing as its own original musical entity, NOT a poorly made mish-mash of riffs. It's also one of the best songs in the suite. They fluctuate in my esteem (for example, I was really hot on The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil and cold on This Dying Soul and Repentance for a while, now it's basically flipped), but The Shattered Fortress is the only one that I consistently love without qualms and has never been outside of my top 3 in the suite (currently: TDS, TSF, TGP, Repentance, TROAE).

I agree. There are definitely enough well written and original moments for the song to stand on its own, and its reprises I feel aren't just thrown in there pointlessly, but add more flavor and texture to the song. They're done in a way that are undoubtedly familiar but at the same time strikingly refreshing. Now, I'm not too keen on every single part of the song--at some points I do feel that they go overboard with the technicality and wackiness that doesn't necessarily entice or excite me particularly, but those moments are pretty thin and far between. The ending is also fantastic, and a great way to end the suite as well. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on June 30, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudness toned it down. Often it's like they're pretending he's a second guitarist for the band. I feel a lot of the songs would be a lot better if they were written with this in mind. The "wanking" would be less "wanky" ;) Was just listening to 6DoIT and was thinking this. Glass Prison, Great Debate, all the songs really, are amazing but brought down by this. If the keyboardist wasn't treated like a guitarist, then they would be soooooo much better.
I know, i know, maybe DT isn't for me. But I love DT! except those parts that are just too much!

People sometimes put DT and Tool up there as the top Progressive Metal bands. And know DT has been influenced in the past by Tool. You can hear it on some stuff of 6FoIT, ToT, and even Scenes! What i notice most though is the bass parts of songs like Home and TGD sound like something Tool would do. Because the bassist in Tool isn't just a background player like i feel Myung is. My opinion is that DT needs to give Myung more time to shine! And for the rest of the band to realize that less is more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 30, 2014, 01:30:44 AM
Quote from: NotePad on June 30, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudess toned it down.

I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on June 30, 2014, 02:23:16 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 30, 2014, 01:30:44 AM
Quote from: NotePad on June 30, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
I feel that DT would benefit a lot if Jordan Rudess toned it down.

I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece. :biggrin:

I wholeheartedly agree with this. He does seem to have been demoted to just part of the rhythm section. Ok so has his nice piano flurries on the slower or more thematic songs - plus he'll get a solo thrown in now and again. But, there is sooo much more to JR. I haven't listened to any of his solo stuff (I know I should) aside from bit here and there, but if you listen to LTE II or Scenes you can hear the influence he had on the band. That influence seems to be pushed to the side more and more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on June 30, 2014, 03:36:24 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on June 30, 2014, 02:23:16 AM
That influence seems to be pushed to the side more and more.
I don't see such a tendency. Jordan's prominence has been fluctuating between albums after SDOIT and I was surprised how dominant he was on ADTOE. Granted, I expected and wanted to get more Jordan on DT12, especially seeing all the gear he hauled into the studio, but overall I don't have a problem with the way they're utilizing him.
Quote from: puppyonacid on June 30, 2014, 02:23:16 AM
I haven't listened to any of his solo stuff (I know I should)
   
I'm a big fusion-instrumental-prog fan, but I found his solo albums difficult to bear and often of bad taste (there are a few pretty cools songs here and there though, like Quantum Soup). Maybe it's best they keep him on a shorter leash. Sherinian's solo albums or Planet X run circles around him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 30, 2014, 01:33:21 PM
The Alternate mix of SFAM is way way better than the original. Lots of things got buried with Kevin Shirleys mix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 02:43:55 PM
I haven't heard it in a while but I think I agree with that. His is missing some effects though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 30, 2014, 03:15:34 PM
It is and those are some important effects to enhance the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on June 30, 2014, 03:31:28 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 30, 2014, 01:30:44 AM
I would argue the exact opposite.
DT with JR has been at their very best when they haven't kept him on such a short leash. Maybe if they gave him more space during the song (instead of burying it in guitar), he wouldn't feel the need to pack so many notes into the one section of the song where he's the centerpiece. :biggrin:

I think he needs to tone it down with the synth, and bring out more natural sounds, namely piano and organ. But we know that's not gonna happen, considering how much he likes new soundz.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 04:35:38 PM
Wither is weaker than A Rite of Passage, The Best of Times, or any other Black Clouds song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on June 30, 2014, 04:38:12 PM
The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress


Wither


A Nightmare to Remember



A Rite of Passage











The Best of Times
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on June 30, 2014, 04:44:12 PM
Quote from: Zook on June 30, 2014, 04:38:12 PM
The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress


Wither


A Nightmare to Remember



A Rite of Passage











The Best of Times

That's about right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 04:48:47 PM
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress

The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage
Wither
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on June 30, 2014, 05:40:08 PM
Quote from: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 04:48:47 PM
The Shattered Fortress
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember

The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage
Wither

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 30, 2014, 05:57:38 PM
I think Wither tops A Rite of Passage, just barely. It's extremely close though.

Ranking BCSL is hard for me, and not for the reason many of you have. It's hard because all the songs are so good.

But:

The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
Wither
A Rite of Passage

The last three are VERY close. The top three were a little bit easier to rank, but still are pretty close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 07:12:37 PM
I like your taste :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 30, 2014, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 30, 2014, 01:33:21 PM
The Alternate mix of SFAM is way way better than the original. Lots of things got buried with Kevin Shirleys mix.

A couple of the mixes are better, but overall I think the final mixes were better. I liked the alternate mix of Overture 1928, bringing out the acoustic guitar a bit more, but they were right to mix down some of the other sounds in the final mix. It's been a little while since I gave it a listen, so I can't remember the specifics of what else I preferred or liked less, but overall I know I preferred the final album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 30, 2014, 11:17:47 PM
Quote from: Grizz on June 30, 2014, 04:35:38 PM
Wither is weaker than A Rite of Passage, The Best of Times, or any other Black Clouds song.

I would have to agree.  The song is all right, albeit a bit generic, but the subject matter is pretty bad. 



For what its worth here is my order:

A Rite of Passage (This song fucking rocks...I dont give a shit what anybody else thinks)

The Count of Tuscany (minus the lyrics)

The Shattered Fortress  (I'll pretend Mike doesn't yell COURTESY!!!! and the rest of the lyrics aren't bad)
The Best of Times (lyrics aren't as bad as a lot of people are making them out to be.  I do think they are too specific though)

A Nightmare to Remember (once again, horrible lyrics)




Wither (The actual lyrics aren't that bad but the subject matter is....weird.  A sorrowful song that basically says, "Sometimes I get writers block...and it kills me...then everything is right in the world and I can write agaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiin!!!!")



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on June 30, 2014, 11:23:28 PM
The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare to Remember

The Shattered Fortress
Wither






A Rite of Passage

sup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on June 30, 2014, 11:26:43 PM
The Count
Nightmare
Wither
Best Of Times
Rite of Passage
Fortress


I actually really like all the songs, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on June 30, 2014, 11:32:51 PM
Wither is probably in my bottom 10 DT songs. It has never clicked with me, and I honestly forget about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 01, 2014, 01:08:15 PM
The Count of Tuscany
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
A Nightmare to Remember
Wither
A Rite of Passage
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 01, 2014, 02:34:57 PM
I think Wither is the best song on BC&SL.

I also think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on July 01, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
Possibly JLB can be DT's best lyricst, if not, second best behind Kevin Moore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 01, 2014, 02:56:32 PM
I'd like Wither more if that Queen solo rip off wasn't in it. I've come to like Just Let Me Breathe more, but the Queen melody is glaringly obvious and sort of distracting.

Nothing against Queen, although I'm not a fan, but things like that bother me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 01, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on July 01, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
Possibly JLB can be DT's best lyricst, if not, second best behind Kevin Moore.
I like his lyrics second best behind Kevin's, too. If we pitted X number of JP's very best lyrics against the total X number of JLB's lyrics, JP would be better, but not by too much. JLB's worst is way better than JP's worst, though, and his highs are a little higher; it's just that anyone who doesn't have a natural knack for lyrics is gonna write some duds when he's a band's main writer, so I imagine JLB would only do marginally better than JP in his situation. And JMX has done pretty well, but we only got to see his very gems.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on July 01, 2014, 03:48:46 PM
I love Just Let Me Breathe  :xbones

Then again, not too familiar with Queen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on July 01, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on July 01, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
Possibly JLB can be DT's best lyricst, if not, second best behind Kevin Moore.
My opinion is, from what we've seen he is pretty good. But he does not really contibute enough to tell, plus he has a seriously bad lyric under his belt (Profits of War).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 01, 2014, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on July 01, 2014, 03:48:46 PM
I love Just Let Me Breathe  :xbones

Then again, not too familiar with Queen

JLMB is awesome. That's the song that got me into FII, which is now one of my top DT albums. And the Queen-ish solo in Wither is a high point. It's not a rip off.

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 01, 2014, 02:34:57 PM
I think Wither is the best song on BC&SL.

I also think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.

I wouldn't quite call either one the best of their respect albums, but they're both great songs. I'd rank Wither around the middle of BCASL, and Vacant maybe about 3rd, but I rank Vacant very highly overall. Hugely underrated song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 01, 2014, 09:51:40 PM
Uh, yeah it is. I made a video, remember?!

A VIDEO!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 01, 2014, 11:09:56 PM
Blob's made videos about elephants walking through hospitals and ants on highways. What's your point?


:neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 01, 2014, 11:11:59 PM
I think Wither is one of the more consistent tracks on the album. It's not amazing by any means, but it doesn't really have any sections that bring it down, the way ANTR, AROP, TBOT or TCOT do. TSF is awesome all the way through though, and my favorite on the album!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on July 02, 2014, 03:21:48 AM
Quote from: Zook on July 01, 2014, 02:56:32 PM
I'd like Wither more if that Queen solo rip off wasn't in it. I've come to like Just Let Me Breathe more, but the Queen melody is glaringly obvious and sort of distracting.

Nothing against Queen, although I'm not a fan, but things like that bother me.

I'm probably one of the biggest Queen fans on this board, and I have no idea what JLMB melody is similar to any Queen song. It never struck me. I'm curious to know what Queen song it sounds familiar to. Not flaming. Genuine curiosity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:27:20 AM
Bohemian Rhapsody, the "spit in my eye" part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 02, 2014, 05:25:34 AM
I'd never noticed any resemblance between the two before despite being very familiar with both songs. I didn't even realize you meant JLMB as having a Queen similarity too. I thought that was just about the Wither solo, which is instantly noticeable.

After pointing it out, I can tell the part you mean though, because there is that melodic run of the same notes and rhythm there, but imo there's no similarity of vibe or hint of intent to intentionally emulate Queen as I believe to be the case with the Wither solo, so I think that's just coincidence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 02, 2014, 11:25:32 AM
I knew that sounded familiar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vtgrad on July 02, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
After all these years (fan since '92) of thinking that ACOS was my favorite DT song, I've recently realized that Trial of Tears surpasses it on every level (in my opinion of course).

Trial of Tears is my favorite DT song... on my second favorite album.  When I think of DT, I immediately think of this song...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 02, 2014, 01:16:52 PM
You, sir, have a mighty fine taste and the same favourite two DT songs as I have. :hifive:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 02, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
Quote from: vtgrad on July 02, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
After all these years (fan since '92) of thinking that ACOS was my favorite DT song, I've recently realized that Trial of Tears surpasses it on every level (in my opinion of course).

Trial of Tears is my favorite DT song... on my second favorite album.  When I think of DT, I immediately think of this song...
Great choice, no doubt.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: puppyonacid on July 02, 2014, 03:21:48 AM
I'm probably one of the biggest Queen fans on this board, and I have no idea what JLMB melody is similar to any Queen song. It never struck me. I'm curious to know what Queen song it sounds familiar to. Not flaming. Genuine curiosity.

Stylistically, that solo is very reminiscent of Brian May. But if you ask me, that just makes Wither more awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 02, 2014, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: Skeever on July 01, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on July 01, 2014, 02:38:38 PM
Possibly JLB can be DT's best lyricst, if not, second best behind Kevin Moore.
My opinion is, from what we've seen he is pretty good. But he does not really contibute enough to tell, plus he has a seriously bad lyric under his belt (Profits of War).

How are PoW's lyrics bad? I'm curious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 02, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
They're just ... clunky. The topic the lyrics are about is/was controversial, to say the least. To navigate such a topic in lyrics takes subtlety and finesse. The PoW lyrics do not have that. Same with the The Great Debate lyrics. Tough topic, and the lyrics are just clunky (and in that case actually downright bad).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:48:31 PM
The lyrics in TGD don't bother me, and TGD is awesome anyway. Can't say the same for POW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 02, 2014, 04:09:26 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.

 No, that one is The Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2014, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 02, 2014, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.

I think he's probably right. TGD has a lot of good sections doesn't go much of anywhere. It's a decent listen, but there are no highlights really that I look forward to. Prophets of War has its flaws, but it's also a fun romp that knows where its going for all 6 minutes. It also brings in a bunch of different influences and experiments and does so quite well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 02, 2014, 05:41:48 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 02, 2014, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.

I think he's probably right. TGD has a lot of good sections doesn't go much of anywhere. It's a decent listen, but there are no highlights really that I look forward to. Prophets of War has its flaws, but it's also a fun romp that knows where its going for all 6 minutes. It also brings in a bunch of different influences and experiments and does so quite well.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 02, 2014, 05:47:18 PM
Okay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2014, 08:45:29 PM
Nice discussion guys. :xbones
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 03, 2014, 01:14:21 AM
Quote from: Zook on July 02, 2014, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

Lay off the drugs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 03, 2014, 01:18:30 AM
More opinions:

They should do at least one album where Myung writes most if not all of the lyrics. MP was never the greatest lyricist, but JP is much worse. I like a lot of JPs lyrics, but a lot of them are also very bad. I always like the themes he writes about, but the execution is not so good a lot of the time. On Awake MP wrote some great lyrics.

Awake is DTs least DT-ish album, but also their best.

I'd much rather Kevin Moore be in the band over JR.

DT need not be afraid of writing songs like Misunderstood. I feel that song is very, you know, misunderstood....;p

FIF is like Awake but without the hard edge, and also nowhere near as good
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on July 03, 2014, 01:46:36 AM
Quote from: 425 on July 02, 2014, 05:39:01 PM
I think he's probably right. TGD has a lot of good sections doesn't go much of anywhere. It's a decent listen, but there are no highlights really that I look forward to. Prophets of War has its flaws, but it's also a fun romp that knows where its going for all 6 minutes. It also brings in a bunch of different influences and experiments and does so quite well.

Totally this. TGD is alright but has never seemed memorable to me, whereas PoW is just a great rock out tune.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on July 03, 2014, 02:35:01 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 02, 2014, 03:52:46 PM
POW is a better song than TGD.

I 100% agree with this statement in no way whatsoever  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 03, 2014, 04:50:31 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 03, 2014, 01:18:30 AM
Awake is DTs least DT-ish album.
???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 03, 2014, 05:35:55 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 03, 2014, 04:50:31 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 03, 2014, 01:18:30 AM
Awake is DTs least DT-ish album.
???

Their least DT-ish is either Falling into Infinity or WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on July 03, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
From my perspective 8V was DT's least sounding DT album. MP was channeling Muse in a big way. He was really digging that
Muse album and the influence was front and center.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on July 03, 2014, 10:56:14 AM
Yeah, if I had to pick the "least DT-sounding" album, it would definitely be Octavarium. Most of the songs sound like tributes to other bands instead of representing DT's own sound, which is one of the reasons I don't like the album that much. They went too far with the inspiration corner IMO...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 03, 2014, 02:19:59 PM
Quote from: emtee on July 03, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
From my perspective 8V was DT's least sounding DT album. MP was channeling Muse in a big way. He was really digging that
Muse album and the influence was front and center.


How do we know it was MP that wanted to channel Muse? From what I remember, JLB was/is also a fan of Muse, and he wrote the lyrics to Prophets of War which has also been compared to Muse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 02:26:53 PM
I remember how I had been listening to Absolution for months before 8V came out, and being really disappointed by the blatant references to Absolution on it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 03, 2014, 04:24:54 PM
I remember not liking Muse and still not liking Muse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on July 03, 2014, 05:46:40 PM
Besides Never Enough, what songs on there sound like Muse? I'm still not buying the Panic Attack comparison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
What is there not "to buy"? The whole bridge of the song is 100% Muse, complete with Bellamy's signature falsettos at the end.

Other than that, there's of course the U2 song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 03, 2014, 06:22:50 PM
I Walk Beside You is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 03, 2014, 07:33:53 PM
I'd agree that 8V is their least "DT" sounding album. That or FII. I wouldn't count WDADU since that was before the sound was even established, so it's not that fair to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 04, 2014, 12:42:04 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 03, 2014, 07:33:53 PM
I'd agree that 8V is their least "DT" sounding album. That or FII. I wouldn't count WDADU since that was before the sound was even established, so it's not that fair to it.

I agree, but I do think WDADU sounds much more like DT than 8VM or FII do. I hear a pretty clear foundation for the type of sound they put out on Images and Words, at least the rockier, heavier metal stuff, not so much the ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 04, 2014, 12:52:05 AM
I think the whole idea of whether an album sounds "more like DT" is silly, and trivial.
They all sound like DT, and at the same time add to what DT's sound is, each one having a different balance of their elements. 8V is a very diverse album, and covers a lot of DT's core elements and sounds. FII is less prog, but showcases the melodic side that has made DT a standout in the genre, and still has its fair share of long proggy songs, attention to detail, and instrumental goodness.

Some albums just may focus less on the element(s) that an individual is drawn to DT for, while focusing on DT's other elements that are just as much a defining part of their sound. But it's all DT being DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on July 04, 2014, 01:14:17 AM
FII is definitely the "least DT-sounding" album, or well it's the most different sounding one stylistically, in my opinion. Any of the music from that time period actually, cotc and all that. Much more rock-y than prog (though it has its share of prog) and literally 0 metal besides BMS (give or take a couple). It was a really cool style for DT, I'm glad that little era of music exists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 04, 2014, 08:05:32 AM
All DT albums are DT, but some are more DT than others.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 04, 2014, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 04, 2014, 12:52:05 AM
I think the whole idea of whether an album sounds "more like DT" is silly, and trivial.

This.

I mean, imagine going back to 1998, when FII just came out, coming up to a DT fan and playing A Nightmare To Remember for them. Would they think it sounds like DT? I highly doubt it. Their sound evolved greatly throughout the years, but there are still a lot of very signature traits that make it Dream Theater.

The only think I will say for FII was that it was the most jarring change from its predecessor. With every other album, there's a more gradual change to them, but with FII, it was stylistically very different from Awake. But hardly "unDT sounding".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 04, 2014, 03:09:13 PM
When FII came out, it seemed drastically different, so much so that I was extremely disappointed. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on July 04, 2014, 03:16:05 PM
Of course all DT is DT, I think everyone just means the most different from the staple DT sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 04, 2014, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on July 04, 2014, 03:16:05 PM
Of course all DT is DT, I think everyone just means the most different from the staple DT sound.

But that still depends on what you'd call the "staple DT sound". They had a drastically different sound in the 90s, than they do now. By today's standards, I wouldn't call Awake "DT sounding".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 04, 2014, 03:33:51 PM
I don't know that DT ever really had a "drastically different" sound. They've stayed mostly within their style, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 04, 2014, 03:46:46 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 04, 2014, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Nearmyth on July 04, 2014, 03:16:05 PM
Of course all DT is DT, I think everyone just means the most different from the staple DT sound.

But that still depends on what you'd call the "staple DT sound". They had a drastically different sound in the 90s, than they do now. By today's standards, I wouldn't call Awake "DT sounding".

The easiest way to explain it is when you hear a song not know it's DT and you say, "This sounds like DT."  No matter the recording method or the influences of the music scene from that time it's "DT".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 04, 2014, 11:31:06 PM
I think that stating that FII deviates from the DT sound is as short-sited as saying The Adventure of Link deviates from the Zelda formula. One must consider the amount of precedent that's set.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 04, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
What is there not "to buy"? The whole bridge of the song is 100% Muse, complete with Bellamy's signature falsettos at the end.

Other than that, there's of course the U2 song.

A. I Walk Beside You does not sound like U2.

b. Matt Bellamy did not invent the falsetto, or even that type of falsetto.

I do think 8V is ripe with moments that sound like other bands, but I just wanted to make those two points.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 05, 2014, 06:30:02 AM
Bellamy ripped those falsettos from Thom Yorke, who ripped them from Jeff Buckley, something like this  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 08:41:23 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 04, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
What is there not "to buy"? The whole bridge of the song is 100% Muse, complete with Bellamy's signature falsettos at the end.

Other than that, there's of course the U2 song.

A. I Walk Beside You does not sound like U2.

I didn't even mention the song. How did you know it was that one I meant?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 05, 2014, 08:43:49 AM
Rumbo, the talk on that song has been on DTF for about 9 years. :lol


I don't think it's a blatant rip but they were engulfed at the time with a certain band.  Hell, I've heard Rush even do this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 05, 2014, 08:50:45 AM
But it's still ultimately like Blob said. They still sound like DT songs, just with a flavor of other bands' stylistic influences.
If you compared IWBY to a regular DT song (like such a thing even exists), then sure, it's easy to say, "Well, this song sounds like U2 in comparison." But if you compare IWBY to an actual U2 song, it's night and day, and IWBY clearly sounds like DT. Heck, if U2's music sounded like IWBY, I might actually be a fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 05, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 08:41:23 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 04, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
What is there not "to buy"? The whole bridge of the song is 100% Muse, complete with Bellamy's signature falsettos at the end.

Other than that, there's of course the U2 song.

A. I Walk Beside You does not sound like U2.

I didn't even mention the song. How did you know it was that one I meant?

Even DT have admitted it was a U2 inspired song. :lol

Oh, I have a great idea! DT should write a sequel to the song, called "I Walk Beside You 2". GET IT?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 05, 2014, 08:55:20 AM
Then maybe DT should listen to U2 more if they are looking to write a song in their vein, cause it really sounds almost nothing like them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 05, 2014, 09:00:10 AM
But Kev, it has an uplifting chorus like Beautiful Day!!

why are people shocked when pop culture, style of the time influence bands that lest decades?!

U2 -- electronica
DT -- Roo Rooohhss!!!!
Rush -- Dry Vocal recordings, keyboards, shorter songs.... ect... :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 09:12:27 AM
Kev, I guess I have to take your word for it that you don't hear the similarity, but if even DT acknowledges it...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 05, 2014, 09:16:02 AM
My guess is DT said that because they probably tried to write a song in the vein of U2, but it didn't come out that way.  The guitar riff, the drums, the keys, etc. - none of it sound like something U2 has or would do.  And U2 doesn't have a patent on uplifting choruses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 09:19:51 AM
Wtf, it's not the uplifting chorus that makes it U2. The biggest factor is JP playing like The Edge on that track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on July 05, 2014, 09:56:09 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 05, 2014, 08:55:20 AM
Then maybe DT should listen to U2 more if they are looking to write a song in their vein, cause it really sounds almost nothing like them.
Probably why I like it then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 05, 2014, 12:40:09 PM
I also remember listening to Absolution before 8VM came out and liked it, but didn't love it. And i remember really hoping DTs next album didn't take any influence from it. But of course we all know what happened there. They blatantly ripped-0ff Muse. In the bad way. I love Tool, and DTs past Tool sounding influence was a perfect balance and not over the top like they did with the 8VM/Muse thing.

I have this feeling that most of that outright obvious influence stuff, like the Muse and Tool thing, was mainly because of MP. And i bet now there will be much less of it. Other then the Rush influence which has always been there.

But at the same time, I'd like to see MP back in the band. BC&SL was not a great album and not the last DT album MP should have been on.

Another opinion: ADTOE was Dream Theater trying to channel I&W. IMO not a good thing. I'd prefer if they channeled Awake, but I have a feeling even they don't know what they did on Awake that makes it the way it is :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on July 05, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 03, 2014, 05:53:13 PM
What is there not "to buy"? The whole bridge of the song is 100% Muse, complete with Bellamy's signature falsettos at the end.

First of all the bridge is like 40 seconds out of a 7+ min song. I would hardly call that an overwhelming Muse influence. Secondly, that section is really not that far off stylistically from other things DT has done and I've never heard a drum pattern like that in a Muse song. This is why I don't buy the Muse analogy. Is there a specific Muse song that section sounds like?

Yes, Never Enough sounds totally like it could've been written by Muse if they were a lot more technically proficient. But that's one song on the record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on July 05, 2014, 02:46:57 PM
All things considered, I think Systematic Chaos is probably one of DT's best albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 05, 2014, 03:42:14 PM
I wouldn't care a lot if it weren't one of the most boring and overrated DT moments ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 05, 2014, 05:22:31 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 05, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Even DT have admitted it was a U2 inspired song. :lol

Oh, I have a great idea! DT should write a sequel to the song, called "I Walk Beside You 2". GET IT?

That's just.... Bad. ... Get it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 05, 2014, 06:54:27 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.

Wow! I´d never noticed that, and hadn´t heard the song since AT LEAST 1998. Gave it a spin just now, and although I definitely see the influence all through Octavarium, I think both are awesome songs in their own right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on July 05, 2014, 08:24:49 PM
Speak To Me called.  They want their "U2" designation back.

Kidding aside...

I'm in the "seriously, who the fuck cares" camp if songs are similar to previous songs.  Call it an homage.  Call it a coincidence.  Call it an inspiration (corner).  But when people start throwing around the "ripoff" tag it makes it sound like a terrible thing when most of the time that's not what is really meant.

Considering all of the music that's ever been written it's a wonder how anyone can write anything these days that someone doesn't say "hey, that sounds like <other song> by <some artist> back in <some year> from <some album>".  I look at is as being if I can recognize a small part or feeling from a song I know from the past then I give myself bonus points cuz I "get it".  But if you're telling someone it's a "blahblah" ripoff they might feel turned-off whereas if you tell them it was inspired by "blahblah" they might think that's cool and go check out that artist they maybe haven't heard of and now be opened to some new music.  Like I checked out Muse when you guys started talking about them back in the day and I had never even heard of them.  More bonus points for me.

It's all about the context and the wording, especially on forums where it's just text and no feel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 05, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
Of course when you consider the fact that everything is a derivative of something that came before it, it goes even further into the "who gives a crap" territory.
Either you like a song or you don't. If someone says, "Well, it sounds like U2, but I like U2 and DT just did it badly, so I don't like this song," then that's kind of a stupid statement. Just say you don't like that song, and that's that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 08:48:32 PM
I dunno. To quote Mike Mangini on this very topic: "If I wanted DT to sound like Kreator, I'd buy a Kreator record instead."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 05, 2014, 08:52:40 PM
Imagine JLB doing Flag of Hate!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on July 06, 2014, 05:38:00 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 05, 2014, 06:54:27 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 05, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.

Wow! I´d never noticed that, and hadn´t heard the song since AT LEAST 1998. Gave it a spin just now, and although I definitely see the influence all through Octavarium, I think both are awesome songs in their own right.

Razor's Edge section certainly has some pieces from The Wall. But I also heard some Losing Time in it, well, more than "some".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:28:18 AM
 How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 06, 2014, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:28:18 AM
How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:32:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 06, 2014, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:28:18 AM
How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?

 I KNOW!!! I found this out a few weeks ago, and my jaw dropped as I was listening to it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 06, 2014, 09:19:50 AM
That one genuinely sounds like it could've just seeped into K-Mo's subconscious. I wouldn't be surprised if he heard the song ages ago, and then forgot all about it by the time they recorded I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on July 06, 2014, 10:22:55 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:32:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 06, 2014, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 06, 2014, 07:28:18 AM
How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?

 I KNOW!!! I found this out a few weeks ago, and my jaw dropped as I was listening to it!

I knew I heard Surrounded's intro before somewhere! God, it must've been a loooong while since I've last listened to Father to Son.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 07, 2014, 08:30:25 PM
I have a theory.

Some people have pointed out that some of DT's less acclaimed work from the middle era keeps going through various renaissances, one at a time. For example, suddenly I'm seeing widespread acclaim for FII that wasn't there before. A couple of years ago it was Six Degrees. I think that it has to do with the similarities in song structures from newer albums.

Systematic Chaos, in '07, was heavy and different, much like the suddenly acclaimed Train of Thought.

Black Clouds and Silver Linings was released in 2009, and re-introduced the idea from Six Degrees about long, experimental, proggy songs that take a bit of listening to digest.

2013 brought Dream Theater which had several FII-style songs that are easy to digest, accessible, and relatively mellow.

Anyone else seeing this?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 07, 2014, 08:52:31 PM
I noticed VERY early on in my DT-fandom that they were very good at incorporating styles of other bands into their music, and that they would often create soundscapes that were instantly recognizable as similar to those other bands without copying actual songs from those bands.  It is one of the things that I have always appreciated about them.  I can see where some fans might not like that aspect of DT's music or might consider it "unoriginal," but I have always liked it for the most part.

And that being said, I have always thought it was pretty obvious that I Walk Beside You sounded inspired by U2.  Like a LOT of other fans, I did not NEED to be told that the band were trying to do so.  It was just obvious to me from listening to the song.  Kev, that's cool that you don't hear it, but a lot of us do and always have.  It is definitely there. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 07, 2014, 09:17:18 PM
Quote from: Grizz on July 07, 2014, 08:30:25 PM
I have a theory.

Some people have pointed out that some of DT's less acclaimed work from the middle era keeps going through various renaissances, one at a time. For example, suddenly I'm seeing widespread acclaim for FII that wasn't there before. A couple of years ago it was Six Degrees. I think that it has to do with the similarities in song structures from newer albums.

Systematic Chaos, in '07, was heavy and different, much like the suddenly acclaimed Train of Thought.

Black Clouds and Silver Linings was released in 2009, and re-introduced the idea from Six Degrees about long, experimental, proggy songs that take a bit of listening to digest.

2013 brought Dream Theater which had several FII-style songs that are easy to digest, accessible, and relatively mellow.

Anyone else seeing this?

Sorry, not really. :lol
I think albums get more appreciated over time, but I don't think there's any connection with newer albums, I think maybe they've just aged well after the initial expectations of what a DT album *should* be have gone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2014, 05:21:14 AM
I agree with bosk1 and Blob.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something :p

The ending of 8VM, when Labrie is shouting 'Trapped inside this octavarium', i was reminded of Tool's song Lateralus by the way both song build up to this great climax at the end. Doing that is a great strategy to end an epic i must say. Both those songs build up and climax in a way that feels better than when I climax on a day to day basis.... I don't know if that influenced DT in writing it, but it DOES remind me of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on July 09, 2014, 12:57:52 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
Both those songs build up and climax in a way that feels better than when I climax on a day to day basis....

So better than listening to Helloween?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 02:32:58 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something :p


Out of the two MM albums, ADTOE is certainly more fitting for the title, although I still don't think they should have done a S/T album at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 09, 2014, 04:02:59 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something :p

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on July 09, 2014, 04:08:19 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 09, 2014, 04:02:59 AM

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.

Exactly
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 04:20:48 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 09, 2014, 04:02:59 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something :p

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.

But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 05:47:44 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 09, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something :p

If you ask me, DT12 has a much more classic DT sound than ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 06:44:48 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 04:20:48 AM
But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.

I get where you are coming from and you are right, every new album is a representation of where the band is at that point in time. But, in DT's case they definitely have been releasing albums over the last 10 years or so that aren't always fully representative of the entirety of the band's sound.  ToT was the metal-style album, 8V was the classic prog style album, SC was the fun metal album, etc, etc... So while those albums do represent where the band was at when they were released, they don't necessarily represent the full scope of DT.

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

So I think that's why it makes sense to self title DT12, because it provides a pretty complete picture of all the elements that make up the mixed bag that is Dream Theater, you know? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 06:44:48 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 04:20:48 AM
But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.

I get where you are coming from and you are right, every new album is a representation of where the band is at that point in time. But, in DT's case they definitely have been releasing albums over the last 10 years or so that aren't always fully representative of the entirety of the band's sound.  ToT was the metal-style album, 8V was the classic prog style album, SC was the fun metal album, etc, etc... So while those albums do represent where the band was at when they were released, they don't necessarily represent the full scope of DT.

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

So I think that's why it makes sense to self title DT12, because it provides a pretty complete picture of all the elements that make up the mixed bag that is Dream Theater, you know? 

I can see your point with ADTOE, but not so much with DT12. I don't think it shows a lot of DT's variety of songwriting styles or structures. And I don't think any album fully showcases every side of DT, even though some obviously come closer than others.
It also doesn't help that I consider both albums easily among DT's weaker albums, so neither album is what I would give to someone to show them what DT is about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 07:09:09 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
I can see your point with ADTOE, but not so much with DT12. I don't think it shows a lot of DT's variety of songwriting styles or structures. And I don't think any album fully showcases every side of DT, even though some obviously come closer than others.
It also doesn't help that I consider both albums easily among DT's weaker albums, so neither album is what I would give to someone to show them what DT is about.

Yeah personal preference clearly comes into play here, and I liked DT12 (and ADTOE for that matter) more than you, so that certainly affects my perspective. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think I would agree with you that ADTOE might be more representative of DT's sound than DT12.  And I also agree that no one single DT album can showcase all that DT has to offer, but like I said before, I feel ADTOE and DT12 come closer to giving listeners "The Bigger Picture"  :lol of what DT is, more so than all their studio efforts since SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 09, 2014, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 06:44:48 AM
I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 06:44:48 AM
I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.

Eh, not really. I feel that BC&SL provides listeners with only a very narrow scope of DT's capabilities and, if anything, more than any other DT album only displays their sound during that exact moment in time. You have the metal and the prog, yeah, but the melodic and song writing elements are definitely what's absent that ADTOE and DT12 demonstrate far better.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 09, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
I disagree. I think BCSL is one of DT's most melodic albums, actually. Look at The Count of Tuscany and The Best of Times, let alone the rest of the album. Maybe the songwriting, yes, in terms of what I call the poppy side of Dream Theater, but there's still some of that, I think. At least in Wither, and I would argue that A Rite of Passage and the midsection of A Nightmare to Remember have some of those attributes.

DT12 is just way too heavy throughout to be representative of Dream Theater's overall sound, to me. Even Along for the Ride is a pretty heavy song. Plus, the album is entirely lacking songs in the 10-15 minute range, the mini-epics that are so important to DT's sound. It's short, generally more straightforward songs and then Illumination Theory. It's not really a well-rounded album in my judgement at all. BCSL is.

I think Mike Portnoy was right when he said that BCSL is an album with, as I recall, TGP, LTL and ACOS (plus maybe a couple others?) all on one album. It really is a summary of all of Dream Theater's sound, encompassing all its different aspects (which couldn't really have be said at the time about any album since Scenes from a Memory).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 02:33:27 PM
BC&SL is certainly varied, yes. Several moments come off as poppy and others as completely bashin' and heavy. But I feel that the group's effort to tie those elements all nicely together to create something cohesive, tight, and memorable didn't exactly carry through for the better. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I won't expect everyone to share the thought.

The thing about BC&SL as well is how it represents DT mostly during the years leading up to its release but not much before that, whereas DT12 I think does a splendid job at giving listeners a taste of the classic DT sound in a more modern form, as opposed to ADTOE, which took a lot of inspiration from their classic sound but didn't update it quite as much imo.

I can agree that Black Clouds is varied and contains many melodic sections and has the prog and the metal to back it up for a traditional DT sound, but I don't think you're giving DT12 the credit it deserves. Sure there are some heavy songs, particularly in TEI and EM, but also the ballad in the form of AFTR, and anthemic which comes with TBP. Song lengths aside, I feel that even after the tighter song writing and their ability to tone back some of the song lengths, it still gives you a pretty good idea of the DT sound in a more concise package that flows much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
I don't understand how people can call DT12 a heavy album. Sure, it has heavy moments in it, but overall, I'd say there are plenty of DT albums heavier than DT12.
TOT, SC, Awake, ADTOE and on the whole, I'd say BCSL is a heavier album than DT12, in spite of having melodic parts.
Compared to DT's sound post 2000, I wouldn't call DT12 a particularly heavy album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on July 09, 2014, 05:19:52 PM
I honestly think people mistake the muddled mix and mastering for being heavy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on July 09, 2014, 06:29:48 PM
Guitar has a huge role in the composing and it's a heavy guitar sound. The mastering, obviously geared towards making it sound more heavy, isn't also a problem as I see it. Why not call it heavy?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 09, 2014, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 02:33:27 PM
I can agree that Black Clouds is varied and contains many melodic sections and has the prog and the metal to back it up for a traditional DT sound, but I don't think you're giving DT12 the credit it deserves. Sure there are some heavy songs, particularly in TEI and EM, but also the ballad in the form of AFTR, and anthemic which comes with TBP. Song lengths aside, I feel that even after the tighter song writing and their ability to tone back some of the song lengths, it still gives you a pretty good idea of the DT sound in a more concise package that flows much better.

I'm about to allude to this in the second section which I actually wrote before writing this, but AFTR may be an attempt to write a light song, but it practice it still sounds really heavy, once the distorted guitar comes in. It's soft until "Through the gift of surrender" and then it's quite heavy. I love The Bigger Picture, but it also is a really heavy song. Let me put it this way: I think there is no song on DT12 that is lighter than The Best of Times.

And I agree that DT12 does a good job of getting the DT sound into a more compact package. But I think it's hard to ignore the 10-15 minute epic as an essential component of the DT sound. Until DT12 there had been at least one on every album since IAW, and WDADU has TKH which is that type of song in spirit if not in actual length. But on DT12 we don't have anything like that. The instrumental madness stuff shows up in IT, but it just feels a little odd to not have one of those, which makes it feel to me, personally, like the album can't exactly typify DT. That bit is a personal preference, though.


I don't think it's intended to be a ridiculously heavy album, which makes it all the worse. It is quite heavy though. The guitar on that album seems to have literally two modes: clean and ridiculously distorted and pushed way to the front. That's why even the damn ballad sounds heavy to me. The chocolate cake thing seems to sound better in theory than in reality. I mean, I'll admit that the heaviness is almost certainly a result of the mixing to a degree, but it honestly sounds too heavy throughout the whole course of the album, so I can't buy "it wasn't meant to sound that way" as an explanation for why I should consider it to be more balanced between heavy and light. It's probably even the heaviest DT album, and probably unintentionally, because of the production. I'll say that it even SOUNDS heavier than ToT, because ToT at least has Vacant which sounds light, which AFTR doesn't. I hate to be negative about music or an album for any reason, but honestly the production of DT12 detracts from my enjoyment of the album, which is true of no other Dream Theater album, which I find really really disappointing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 07:31:13 PM
I'm about to allude to this in the second section which I actually wrote before writing this, but AFTR may be an attempt to write a light song, but it practice it still sounds really heavy, once the distorted guitar comes in. It's soft until "Through the gift of surrender" and then it's quite heavy. I love The Bigger Picture, but it also is a really heavy song. Let me put it this way: I think there is no song on DT12 that is lighter than The Best of Times.
The Best of Times has some pretty fast and energetic riffs in it as well. The style alludes more to Hard Rock than Metal, but when it comes to ballads getting heavier and more epic, DT has always done things like that. Look at To Live Forever and The Spirit Carries On. They both start out mellow, but then build into something big and powerful, and I think AFTR fits perfectly well into that category.

Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 07:31:13 PM
And I agree that DT12 does a good job of getting the DT sound into a more compact package. But I think it's hard to ignore the 10-15 minute epic as an essential component of the DT sound. Until DT12 there had been at least one on every album since IAW, and WDADU has TKH which is that type of song in spirit if not in actual length. But on DT12 we don't have anything like that. The instrumental madness stuff shows up in IT, but it just feels a little odd to not have one of those, which makes it feel to me, personally, like the album can't exactly typify DT. That bit is a personal preference, though.
Regarding this, I look at it in a completely different way. DT usually has a habit of ending their albums with an epic, be it around 13 minutes, or anywhere up to 25. Songs like Trial of Tears, ITNOG and Learning To Live apply to this category, but then, so do songs like Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies and The Count of Tuscany. In DT12, Illumination Theory is that song, and even though it's 22 minutes, part of that is the Easter Egg, so the main component of the song itself is around 19 minutes, which is pretty much the same as TCOT.

As for mini-epics I think it's more about the musical journey than about song length and DT12 may not have really long songs, but its 'epicness' is condensed in a big way, and still manages to take you through that musical journey and deliver songs that are as progressive as anything they've ever done. Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 09:33:52 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 09, 2014, 06:44:48 AM
I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.

I'd agree, although I'd probably put BCASL level with DT12.
I find DT12's songs to mostly be a bit too brief to highlight their core elements to their full potential, and the album is overall heavy. Even when the song isn't written to be heavy, the arrangement and mix are drenched in guitars at the expense of other instruments.
And BCASL's songs are overall too long to allow them enough space to showcase as much, without enough progression within some of the songs to showcase everything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 09, 2014, 10:51:17 PM
You're totally right. Except while I acknowledge that BCSL songs are too damn long, I like them anyway.
Six Degrees on the other hand...


















 :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 10:57:58 PM
Basically everything TheGreatPretender said. I agree with that 100%.

Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 07:31:13 PM
I don't think it's intended to be a ridiculously heavy album, which makes it all the worse. It is quite heavy though. The guitar on that album seems to have literally two modes: clean and ridiculously distorted and pushed way to the front. That's why even the damn ballad sounds heavy to me. The chocolate cake thing seems to sound better in theory than in reality. I mean, I'll admit that the heaviness is almost certainly a result of the mixing to a degree, but it honestly sounds too heavy throughout the whole course of the album, so I can't buy "it wasn't meant to sound that way" as an explanation for why I should consider it to be more balanced between heavy and light. It's probably even the heaviest DT album, and probably unintentionally, because of the production. I'll say that it even SOUNDS heavier than ToT, because ToT at least has Vacant which sounds light, which AFTR doesn't. I hate to be negative about music or an album for any reason, but honestly the production of DT12 detracts from my enjoyment of the album, which is true of no other Dream Theater album, which I find really really disappointing.

I couldn't disagree more. Even taking into account the production and compression issues that the guitar tones face throughout the album, in no way does DT12 come close to the consistent heaviness and trashiness of an album like TOT. There's Vacant, sure, but that's one streak of white in a portrait painted black. I'm not denying that DT12 is a relatively heavy album, but I think we're forgetting that this is Dream Theater, one of the forerunners to the progressive metal genre. My point being that it's not as heavy as other DT albums and that it showcases a wide array of sounds even given the supposed limits to that genre label.

While the mixing and mastering is most certainly a factor in how heavy an album may come across, it really doesn't come into play nearly as much as the actual song-writing and instrumentation do in delivering a particular mood that the band tries to convey.

Again, I do acknowledge the varied moods and levels of intensity presented by BC&SL--it most certainly lives up to its name in presenting the light and shade that DT has to offer, but in the end I just feel that DT12 achieves the same exact thing but more thoroughly and with packing a bigger punch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2014, 11:35:03 PM
Quote from: Grizz on July 09, 2014, 10:51:17 PM
You're totally right. Except while I acknowledge that BCSL songs are too damn long, I like them anyway.
Six Degrees on the other hand...

 :corn

OH NO YOU DINT! :getoffmylawn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 10, 2014, 11:11:09 AM
Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

The reason I love DT12 so much is because I think it broke free of that pattern. I think it's the first consistently good and interesting album since SDOIT. The worst part I find is AFTR, but I don't find it boring, and it's pretty short by DT standards. Every song is something I legitimately enjoy, and I don't have to dig through anything to "find the gems" so to speak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 10, 2014, 11:42:32 AM
Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.
yup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 10, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Yep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 10, 2014, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 10, 2014, 11:11:09 AM
Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

The reason I love DT12 so much is because I think it broke free of that pattern. I think it's the first consistently good and interesting album since SDOIT. The worst part I find is AFTR, but I don't find it boring, and it's pretty short by DT standards. Every song is something I legitimately enjoy, and I don't have to dig through anything to "find the gems" so to speak.

Yup, this pretty much. Though replace SDOIT with TOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on July 10, 2014, 12:43:38 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 09, 2014, 02:09:46 PM
DT12 is just way too heavy throughout to be representative of Dream Theater's overall sound, to me. Even Along for the Ride is a pretty heavy song. Plus, the album is entirely lacking songs in the 10-15 minute range, the mini-epics that are so important to DT's sound. It's short, generally more straightforward songs and then Illumination Theory. It's not really a well-rounded album in my judgement at all.
:iagree:

There are a few great songs on DT12, but listening to the whole album is a chore, because it suffers from a serious lack of dynamics (both musically and audio-wise).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
+1 on the often-quoted statement above.

Specifically, for me at least, with ToT started the "Saved by the epic" stretch. ToT was saved by SoC and ITNOG, 8V was saved by Octavarium, SC was not even saved by ITPOE, and BCSL was saved once again by TCOT.
Mind you, most of those albums had good other songs interspersed here and there, but overall, at least for me, without the strong epic at the end of the album, they would have all been below 5/10 for me. It also didn't help that each album was forced to have one 12SS song on it, and one "sounds like band X" song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
The Best of Times has some pretty fast and energetic riffs in it as well. The style alludes more to Hard Rock than Metal, but when it comes to ballads getting heavier and more epic, DT has always done things like that. Look at To Live Forever and The Spirit Carries On. They both start out mellow, but then build into something big and powerful, and I think AFTR fits perfectly well into that category.

The Best of Times is certainly energetic, but it's never at any point what I would call heavy. What I would say for The Spirit Carries On is that it definitely does start out mellow and become bigger and more powerful, and I agree that Along for the Ride fits into that category. However, SFAM is not a heavy album all the way through that relies on TSCO as its sole break. It already has Regression, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes and One Last Time to provide dynamics. But on DT12, AFTR is pretty much it in terms of an opportunity for a break, and it really doesn't provide one. Meanwhile TSCO was never intended as a break. It's intended as a climax.

I say, this by the way, while probably liking Along for the Ride better than a majority of people on this forum do. I would probably rank it third on the album behind The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
Regarding this, I look at it in a completely different way. DT usually has a habit of ending their albums with an epic, be it around 13 minutes, or anywhere up to 25. Songs like Trial of Tears, ITNOG and Learning To Live apply to this category, but then, so do songs like Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies and The Count of Tuscany. In DT12, Illumination Theory is that song, and even though it's 22 minutes, part of that is the Easter Egg, so the main component of the song itself is around 19 minutes, which is pretty much the same as TCOT.

I get this, but I'm going to counter it by saying this: All the albums that end with an epic have another epic song on the album. Falling Into Infinity has Lines in the Sand in addition to Trial of Tears. Train of Thought has a lot of epic songs in addition to In the Name of God; I would say Endless Sacrifice is the most epic. Images and Words has Metropolis, which is less than ten minutes but still epic in style and scope. Octavarium has Sacrificed Sons on top of the title track, Systematic Chaos has The Ministry of Lost Souls on top of ITPOE and Black Clouds & Silver Linings has A Nightmare to Remember. We could say, actually, for every album after WDADU, that it has two epics. Awake has Voices and Scarred, Scenes has Beyond This Life and Home, and Dramatic Turn has Outcry and Breaking All Illusions.

DT12 doesn't has these; it just has 8 short songs and the one epic. To me that's a bit of a strange anomaly, and one that make the album, to me personally, feel a bit less representative of the DT sound.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
As for mini-epics I think it's more about the musical journey than about song length

I agree to an extent, which is why I would enumerate Metropolis and Voices (and maybe The Killing Hand? it's borderline) among the mini-epics despite the fact that these fall short of the 10-minute mark.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
and DT12 may not have really long songs, but its 'epicness' is condensed in a big way, and still manages to take you through that musical journey and deliver songs that are as progressive as anything they've ever done.

Hmm. I think I have to disagree. Illumination Theory is one of their proggiest songs ever, but I don't think I could say that the rest of the disc is up to the usual DT standard for progginess. Maybe Behind the Veil and to a lesser degree Surrender to Reason, but I think if you compare it to, say, ADTOE, ADTOE is easily proggier.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.

Umm... No.


Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 10:57:58 PM
I couldn't disagree more. Even taking into account the production and compression issues that the guitar tones face throughout the album, in no way does DT12 come close to the consistent heaviness and trashiness of an album like TOT. There's Vacant, sure, but that's one streak of white in a portrait painted black. I'm not denying that DT12 is a relatively heavy album, but I think we're forgetting that this is Dream Theater, one of the forerunners to the progressive metal genre. My point being that it's not as heavy as other DT albums and that it showcases a wide array of sounds even given the supposed limits to that genre label.

I'll agree with the bolded part but not with the underlined part. I think Train of Thought is the only one I could even get the argument for being heavier than DT12. I'll agree that Train of Thought is the darker of the two albums, but in terms of sheer heaviness the two are close together. But ToT has a greater sense of dynamics in the production, which leads to some non-heavy parts like Vacant or the middle of In the Name of God, while DT12 feels more cramped to me. In fact, I think that's what it is. DT12 feels too cramped to me. The music does not at any point ever breathe, while ToT is far roomier even while being heavy all the way through (and fairly compressed in terms of mastering as well).

Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 10:57:58 PM
While the mixing and mastering is most certainly a factor in how heavy an album may come across, it really doesn't come into play nearly as much as the actual song-writing and instrumentation do in delivering a particular mood that the band tries to convey.

Hmm. Perhaps. I think I can agree with the statement that ToT is heavier than DT12, with the caveat that it's far easier for me to listen to ToT because it sounds roomier while DT12 sounds cramped.

Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 09, 2014, 10:57:58 PM
Again, I do acknowledge the varied moods and levels of intensity presented by BC&SL--it most certainly lives up to its name in presenting the light and shade that DT has to offer, but in the end I just feel that DT12 achieves the same exact thing but more thoroughly and with packing a bigger punch.

I think DT12 is actually not all that diverse in mood or intensity level. There's some diversity in the first few songs, but the second half of the album is all that same mood of being strong in the face of adversity. TBP, BTV, STR, AFTR, IT are both musically and lyrically of a similar mood to each other. I'll give the album credit for finding some different moods in TEI, TLG and EM, but I don't think there's as much diversity as on BCSL, where just about no song shares the same mood as another (I think there's some similarity between AROP and early TCOT, but aside from that...). There's also tons of variety within individual songs on BCSL—ANTR, TCOT, TBOT and TSF all have that kind of thing.

I like DT12, I really do, but I'm not in love with it, and I have trouble with it sometimes. While I always think that the songs of BCSL or ToT or FII or, of course, IAW are all very good, I have trouble listening to DT12 that often and regularly get frustrated with it. Even while liking it. I think I'm also frustrated that I don't feel the same way about it as some people do, especially since it was the first DT album whose release I awaited. But that's just the way it is for me with this one, unfortunately.


Now just to rock the boat:

Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Six Degrees is quite possibly the weakest album they've done, and probably only tops SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 10, 2014, 02:04:20 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
I'll agree with the bolded part but not with the underlined part. I think Train of Thought is the only one I could even get the argument for being heavier than DT12. I'll agree that Train of Thought is the darker of the two albums, but in terms of sheer heaviness the two are close together. But ToT has a greater sense of dynamics in the production, which leads to some non-heavy parts like Vacant or the middle of In the Name of God, while DT12 feels more cramped to me. In fact, I think that's what it is. DT12 feels too cramped to me. The music does not at any point ever breathe, while ToT is far roomier even while being heavy all the way through (and fairly compressed in terms of mastering as well).

That's just it though. Vacant is a relatively short song. While I'm all for applauding the band for having the audacity and guts to insert such a quiet and heart-wrenching piece in the middle of all of this thrashy chaos that pervades the remaining hour or so of the record, it doesn't necessarily make it that much more diverse than any of their other albums, and this coming from someone who loves the album more than quite a few members on this board.

I don't hear DT12 as being cramped honestly. Despite the shorter song lengths, I feel that each track has enough room to breathe however much it needs to without over-staying its welcome, unlike DT's previous attempts at drawing out their song lengths as much as possible. That's not to say that all of their songs in the 10~ minutes range are like that, but that's certainly what I gather when listening to BC&SL and even a little bit of ADTOE.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
I think DT12 is actually not all that diverse in mood or intensity level. There's some diversity in the first few songs, but the second half of the album is all that same mood of being strong in the face of adversity. TBP, BTV, STR, AFTR, IT are both musically and lyrically of a similar mood to each other. I'll give the album credit for finding some different moods in TEI, TLG and EM, but I don't think there's as much diversity as on BCSL, where just about no song shares the same mood as another (I think there's some similarity between AROP and early TCOT, but aside from that...). There's also tons of variety within individual songs on BCSL—ANTR, TCOT, TBOT and TSF all have that kind of thing.

I can see how BC&SL might be more diverse than DT12 in that department. In fact, I usually clump TBP, BTV, and STR as a trio in my mind when I think about DT12, but the way I see it is that while Black Clouds focuses on going between two extremes of a spectrum, DT12 finds middle ground while still deviating a good bit from that standard. The thing about BC&SL for me is that while I like the concept of delving in these two extremes--the light and shade, as the title suggests--it really would have worked so much better had it had tighter and more well-constructed song-writing and overall more cohesiveness to take you on through its journey. It really doesn't come off as engaging the way DT12 does.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
I like DT12, I really do, but I'm not in love with it, and I have trouble with it sometimes. While I always think that the songs of BCSL or ToT or FII or, of course, IAW are all very good, I have trouble listening to DT12 that often and regularly get frustrated with it. Even while liking it. I think I'm also frustrated that I don't feel the same way about it as some people do, especially since it was the first DT album whose release I awaited. But that's just the way it is for me with this one, unfortunately.

I guess that's just where we have to disagree. DT12 is the second DT album I was actively anticipating since I first got into them right around BC&SL's release. I recall being completely hyped for ADTOE but being slightly disappointed. Not that it was a bad album--it was great--but it didn't live up to my ridiculous expectations, so when DT12 started to roll along, I made sure I wasn't going to over-hype it in the same way, and in fact, I wanted to be more critical of it despite this being one of my favorite bands. It has its flaws, yeah, but I really couldn't find things too bad about it without cherry-picking it. In the end, I couldn't help but love it and it's never really a chore to get through. Even now, here on the forums, the album is met with incredibly mixed reception, but screw it, I'll defend it for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 10, 2014, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
The Best of Times is certainly energetic, but it's never at any point what I would call heavy. What I would say for The Spirit Carries On is that it definitely does start out mellow and become bigger and more powerful, and I agree that Along for the Ride fits into that category. However, SFAM is not a heavy album all the way through that relies on TSCO as its sole break. It already has Regression, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes and One Last Time to provide dynamics. But on DT12, AFTR is pretty much it in terms of an opportunity for a break, and it really doesn't provide one. Meanwhile TSCO was never intended as a break. It's intended as a climax.
I guess it just comes down to the fact that I don't think DT12 is that heavy of an album. Yes, it doesn't have a stand alone dedicated ballad, but I don't feel like it needs one, because most of the songs on it are easily digestible. They have some heavy riffs, and some melodic parts, but on an album like SFAM, you need those ballads a lot more, and think about their placement. With songs like FT and BTL, you need a breather after something like that, and that applies even more to having Home and then TDOE back to back, you need to take a breather after an intense listening session like that, and that's what OLT and TSCO are for.
On DT12, there aren't any long, extended epic heavy songs that require such a breather. After TEI, we get TLG, which is a fairly lighthearted song, and same goes for The Bigger Picture following IT. They're not ballads, but they provide just enough levity after the craziness that preceeds them, and the whole album flows pretty much like that, so never at any point did I feel like, "Man, that's way too much intense music in a row, a ballad would really be nice right about now."

But I guess if you do consider it a heavy album, then I can understand why you'd think it needs that dedicated ballad.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
I get this, but I'm going to counter it by saying this: All the albums that end with an epic have another epic song on the album. Falling Into Infinity has Lines in the Sand in addition to Trial of Tears. Train of Thought has a lot of epic songs in addition to In the Name of God; I would say Endless Sacrifice is the most epic. Images and Words has Metropolis, which is less than ten minutes but still epic in style and scope. Octavarium has Sacrificed Sons on top of the title track, Systematic Chaos has The Ministry of Lost Souls on top of ITPOE and Black Clouds & Silver Linings has A Nightmare to Remember. We could say, actually, for every album after WDADU, that it has two epics. Awake has Voices and Scarred, Scenes has Beyond This Life and Home, and Dramatic Turn has Outcry and Breaking All Illusions.

DT12 doesn't has these; it just has 8 short songs and the one epic. To me that's a bit of a strange anomaly, and one that make the album, to me personally, feel a bit less representative of the DT sound.

Granted that is true, but personally, I wouldn't just dismiss the album's content as "8 short songs", the kind of musical journey that most of those songs take you through is pretty epic in itself. Granted, that's not so strange for DT, they've had plenty of mini-mini-epics in their day, with songs like Surrounded, ADOE, Fatal Tragedy, etc. But usually there are also plenty of more straight forward songs like Lie, AROP, OTBOA, etc. With this album, I feel like almost every song has that small musical journey akin to having its own mini-instrumental break. Like I said, I'd say these are more than short songs. I'd just say they're condensed epics.

But whether you agree with me or not, I understand having certain patterns and expectations, but at the same time, let's not pigeon hole DT into being obligated to put stuff like that on their albums. Look at ADTOE, that was the first time we've had a ballad closing off the album since Awake, and I'm sure that everyone was expecting the last song on the album to be the epic, but they went against the usual pattern for something different.
This time around, they had 8 condensed songs along with one mega-epic, and no dedicated ballads. So maybe it's not the typical Dream Theater structure, but I would never say it's not the typical DT SOUND. In terms of Sound, in terms of musicianship, and instrumental twists and turns, this album was very true to what DT is all about.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
Hmm. I think I have to disagree. Illumination Theory is one of their proggiest songs ever, but I don't think I could say that the rest of the disc is up to the usual DT standard for progginess. Maybe Behind the Veil and to a lesser degree Surrender to Reason, but I think if you compare it to, say, ADTOE, ADTOE is easily proggier.
I don't know if I'd say it's proggier. It is definitely more epic in that it has a much bigger sound. It sounds very grand, and the kinds of sounds that JR used made the songs sound much more... Almost orchestral in a way, and if that's how you define epic or proggy, then yeah.
But I'd also say that ADTOE was a much heavier album and again, going back to what I said before, after longer and heavier songs such as LNF and Outcry, you do need to have a ballad to give yourself that bit of a breather.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 09, 2014, 08:14:37 PM
Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.

Umm... No.
Well, I don't know what to say to that. Again, obviously, our definition of epic differs, then. Because while ANTR is a very long song, I wouldn't call it an epic. It's just really, really long, and has 2 distinct musical themes to it. That doesn't define an epic.

Quote from: 425 on July 10, 2014, 01:28:22 PM
Now just to rock the boat:

Quote from: Implode on July 10, 2014, 09:12:46 AM
Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Six Degrees is quite possibly the weakest album they've done, and probably only tops SC.

But that's not possible, since SC is better than Six Degrees.

How's that for rocking the boat?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on July 10, 2014, 03:14:10 PM
In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 10, 2014, 03:18:51 PM
:|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 10, 2014, 03:28:41 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on July 10, 2014, 03:14:10 PM
In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

You forgot to green text that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 10, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
 :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's bad. Some parts are to the point of comical.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 10, 2014, 07:52:12 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 10, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's amazing. Some parts are to the point of godly.

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 10, 2014, 08:02:11 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 10, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's bad. Some parts are to the point of comical.

 :)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 10, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
SC just doesn't hook me.  I play that the second least of all DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 10, 2014, 08:42:29 PM
I play my edited version of it quite often.  Next to ADTOE and DT12, it is probably my currently-most played.  (I say "currently" because, simply by virtue of having it since 1992, I am sure I have played I&W more than any other DT album).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 10, 2014, 08:50:59 PM
I go in waves when it comes to albums.  I leave them alone for awhile then I play a certain disk and I overplay it again.  Of late besides DT12, I've been playing I&W and BC&SL a lot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 10, 2014, 08:55:05 PM
SC isn't bad, just not as consistent or engaging as other DT albums, but for what it is, it's solid and even has some spectacular moments. That being said, I still rank it pretty low in the grand scheme of DT albums and is accordingly one of their albums I listen to the least outside the few songs that I truly love on it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 10, 2014, 09:01:15 PM
Not saying it's bad at all but I just albums on my listening habits and I barely reach for it.  It just doesn't click with me and I'm a big DT fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 10, 2014, 09:50:00 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on July 10, 2014, 03:14:10 PM
In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 10, 2014, 10:04:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 10, 2014, 09:50:00 PM

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.

Well, there's something we can agree on.  Both statements, in fact. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 11, 2014, 01:03:51 AM
Quite a few things I want to respond to but there's too many pages since I've been here.  :lol

So I'll just say; I love SC for it's creativity. Say what you want about the compositions, themes, presentation. There's no doubt it's one of there most unique albums as they were deliberately being a bit quirky and silly and just generally having fun with it. What with all the fans coming in and contributing aswell, it's quite a special and creative album by DT standards (whatever those are).

BL&SL I love for it's diversity. I completely agree with the comment about each song feeling completing different from the next, which is something that can't be said for very many albums at all.

And I think DT12 is epic in and of itself. Even if the individuals songs don't have that 'grand' scale. The smaller pieces are really just parts of a bigger picture which I believe is what the band's vision was with this album anyway.

Finally, the idea that AFTR is not a ballad doesn't sit comfortably with me. I can appreciate where that feeling comes from (seeing as it can be somewhat subjective to define these things) as the song is quite dynamic and builds momentum which aren't necessarily traditionally or predominantly features of this label. But to me.. it's totally a ballad. I can consider it being separated among the other DT 'ballads', but play that song to a non DT fan and they'll tell you it's a ballad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 11, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
I will agree with two things posted above.

1. Along For The Ride is a ballad, and I am flabbergasted that anyone would argue otherwise.

2. A Nightmare to Remember is a really long song, but there is nothing remotely epic about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on July 11, 2014, 07:31:44 AM
SC is probably the most consistent album they've released.

It just happens that for me, it's consistently boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on July 10, 2014, 08:50:59 PM
I go in waves when it comes to albums.  I leave them alone for awhile then I play a certain disk and I overplay it again.  Of late besides DT12, I've been playing I&W and BC&SL a lot.

Yeah, that is the album that got me into Trivium in the first place.  But now you are off topic.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 10, 2014, 09:50:00 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on July 10, 2014, 03:14:10 PM
In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.

For me, it is just that it is inconsistent.  The best songs stand right up there with the best songs DT has written.  But then there are others that are at or near the bottom for me.  As I have often said, it would have made a great EP.  And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on July 11, 2014, 09:22:38 AM
For me, SC was the first album that made me doubt the band's artistic direction, in terms of production, in terms of lyrics, in terms of vocal arrangements and song structures. While i enjoy a large part of it, it seems to be that after Octavarium the band fell into a very formulaic period, with a predefined idea of what the DT sound is and a newfound love for modern metal elements, especially on the vocals.

While it is not as bad as BC&SL which might be my least favorite overall, it's still very inconsistent and there are parts (instrumental part of Ministry Of Souls for example) that make me wonder how much better it would be with the help of an external producer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on July 11, 2014, 09:28:54 AM
The Bigger Picture is one of the best musical pieces DT has ever written! That song alone is worth more than the entire WDADU album, imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2014, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: Tick on July 11, 2014, 09:28:54 AM
The Bigger Picture is one of the best musical pieces DT has ever written! That song alone is worth more than the entire WDADU album, imo.
What Mora said in the following reply:
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
No.
TBP is a good song, but worth more than WDaDU? Try again chief.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
No.
Yes.  I would take an album with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, Wait For Sleep, Learning To Live, ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN over any album I have ever heard by anybody.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on July 11, 2014, 04:44:56 PM
Quote from: Tick on July 11, 2014, 09:28:54 AM
The Killing Hand is one of the best musical pieces DT has ever written! That song alone is worth more than the entire SC and BC&SL albums, imo.

I'll take the risk and FTFM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 04:46:24 PM
In response, I'll take the risk and FTFM. 

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2014, 02:20:13 PM
TKH is a good song, but worth more than SC and BC&SL? Try again chief.

:biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on July 11, 2014, 04:48:31 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 11, 2014, 04:55:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
No.
Yes.  I would take an album with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, Wait For Sleep, Learning To Live, ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN over any album I have ever heard by anybody.

What is this I don't even
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2014, 07:55:14 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
No.
Yes.  I would take an album with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, Wait For Sleep, Learning To Live, ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN over any album I have ever heard by anybody.

So your saying that your chocolate in that peanut butter gave you an idea?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FlyingBIZKIT on July 11, 2014, 08:31:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 11, 2014, 09:05:45 AM
And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.
No.
Yes.  I would take an album with Pull Me Under, Metropolis, Wait For Sleep, Learning To Live, ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN over any album I have ever heard by anybody.
No. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on July 11, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
To me that sounds more like chocolate in my brussel sprouts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 11, 2014, 10:04:17 PM
Quote from: Implode on July 11, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
To me that sounds more like chocolate in my brussel sprouts.

You have a nice healthy dinner with brussel sprouts, and then once that's done, you have some chocolate for dessert. It's that simple.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on July 12, 2014, 08:22:40 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2014, 02:20:13 PM
Quote from: Tick on July 11, 2014, 09:28:54 AM
The Bigger Picture is one of the best musical pieces DT has ever written! That song alone is worth more than the entire WDADU album, imo.
What Mora said in the following reply:
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
No.
TBP is a good song, but worth more than WDaDU? Try again chief.
It is for me, bro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on July 12, 2014, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on July 11, 2014, 04:44:56 PM
Quote from: Tick on July 11, 2014, 09:28:54 AM
The Killing Hand has the biggest sour vocal note in any song  DT has ever written!

I'll agree!
FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 13, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
I don't really think any DT album should be self-titled. Ideally, I&W should be their S/T album since it was their first major album and also has all the 'classic' DT elements. Just like ADTOE. And IMO albums that are not S/T and rightfully so are ones like Awake, 8VM, ToT, because even though they contain classic DT elements, there is also a lot of experimentation like shorter songs with big hooks, and in the case of 8VM there are many "homages" that are waay to obvious.

But anyways, since MP was such a HUGE part of DT, they should not have done a self-titled without him. I'm not one of those who dislikes that band now that he's gone, in fact im still a big fan, but MP was one of the core ingredients of DT for around 20 years, since it's inception. I don't want to say it was disrespectful of them to do this S/T, but it can easily be looked at that way. Could'nt they just call it something else?

Although i feel like DT is currently having a second life, like they're bigger then ever before, which feels like it began around when 8VM was released. I think they may just be going off that energy the band currently has so they have the charisma to do a s/t album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 13, 2014, 04:54:11 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 13, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
I don't really think any DT album should be self-titled. Ideally, I&W should be their S/T album since it was their first major album and also has all the 'classic' DT elements. Just like ADTOE. And IMO albums that are not S/T and rightfully so are ones like Awake, 8VM, ToT, because even though they contain classic DT elements, there is also a lot of experimentation like shorter songs with big hooks, and in the case of 8VM there are many "homages" that are waay to obvious.

But anyways, since MP was such a HUGE part of DT, they should not have done a self-titled without him. I'm not one of those who dislikes that band now that he's gone, in fact im still a big fan, but MP was one of the core ingredients of DT for around 20 years, since it's inception. I don't want to say it was disrespectful of them to do this S/T, but it can easily be looked at that way. Could'nt they just call it something else?

Although i feel like DT is currently having a second life, like they're bigger then ever before, which feels like it began around when 8VM was released. I think they may just be going off that energy the band currently has so they have the charisma to do a s/t album.

You have to be kidding me.  Since they never used a self titled name for an album it was free game.  They also felt this was a new beginning.  This was the 1st time all 5 were there from the start for the recording process.  I love Mike, but he has no claim at all to the self titled name for an album and neither do us fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 13, 2014, 05:46:36 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 13, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
But anyways, since MP was such a HUGE part of DT, they should not have done a self-titled without him. I'm not one of those who dislikes that band now that he's gone, in fact im still a big fan, but MP was one of the core ingredients of DT for around 20 years, since it's inception. I don't want to say it was disrespectful of them to do this S/T, but it can easily be looked at that way. Could'nt they just call it something else?
Couldn't they just do what they want?  They never wanted to do that when MP was in the band, but he isn't any more, so it would be meaningless for him to factor in any way in the decisions they make now for the band.  It's not disrespectful to him, it is just irrelevant to him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 13, 2014, 06:34:39 PM
Self titled is making a statement. "This is Dream Theater". Although it's funny when some fan's reactions are almost from them being in denial about what Dream Theater is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 13, 2014, 09:23:19 PM
Of course, every album,  in the end, could have been called "Dream Theater", as at that time the album signified the sound of the band at the time.
That said, if I had to choose, IAW is probably the album I would have called " Dream Theater ".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 13, 2014, 11:14:23 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 13, 2014, 09:23:19 PM
Of course, every album,  in the end, could have been called "Dream Theater", as at that time the album signified the sound of the band at the time.
That said, if I had to choose, IAW is probably the album I would have called " Dream Theater ".

Well, if DT was one of THOSE bands, by which I mean, one of the bands that just comes out with a selftitled early on, then they probably would've made WDADU self-titled. I don't know of very many bands that name their sophomore album after themselves.

And then there are bands like Duran Duran, which have TWO self-titled albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 13, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
Or the bands that have three.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 13, 2014, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 13, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
Or the bands that have three.

...Blackfield, Blackfield II, and Blackfield IV?

I was reading through the ADTOE album and track title speculation threads from when BITS was The Shaman's Trance, and it made me think about what the discussion of the self-titled album was like. I would imagine it being very focused on the legitimacy of being s/t, or not very active.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 13, 2014, 11:40:00 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 13, 2014, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 13, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
Or the bands that have three.

...Blackfield, Blackfield II, and Blackfield IV?

I was reading through the ADTOE album and track title speculation threads from when BITS was The Shaman's Trance, and it made me think about what the discussion of the self-titled album was like. I would imagine it being very focused on the legitimacy of being s/t, or not very active.

Was referring to Weezer actually. Most people might refer to them by their colors but they are technically all self-titled. I've always thought that was amusing. :biggrin:

That reminds me how much I would have preferred them name BITS The Shaman's Trance instead. I guess it doesn't matter too much but I like the originality of it rather than it being taken from a lyric on the track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 13, 2014, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 13, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
But anyways, since MP was such a HUGE part of DT, they should not have done a self-titled without him. I'm not one of those who dislikes that band now that he's gone, in fact im still a big fan, but MP was one of the core ingredients of DT for around 20 years, since it's inception. I don't want to say it was disrespectful of them to do this S/T, but it can easily be looked at that way. Couldn't they just call it something else?

When Queen reuinted with Paul Rodgers, they called it "Queen + Paul Rodgers".  To Brian May and Roger Taylor, Freddie Mercury was the vocalist of Queen.  He couldn't be replaced.  So the reunited band name reflected that.

I feel like a lot of fans look at the band's current version as "Dream Theater - Mike Portnoy" for the same reasons.  But I don't totally understand it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 14, 2014, 01:20:57 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 13, 2014, 05:46:36 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 13, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
But anyways, since MP was such a HUGE part of DT, they should not have done a self-titled without him. I'm not one of those who dislikes that band now that he's gone, in fact im still a big fan, but MP was one of the core ingredients of DT for around 20 years, since it's inception. I don't want to say it was disrespectful of them to do this S/T, but it can easily be looked at that way. Could'nt they just call it something else?
Couldn't they just do what they want?  They never wanted to do that when MP was in the band, but he isn't any more, so it would be meaningless for him to factor in any way in the decisions they make now for the band.  It's not disrespectful to him, it is just irrelevant to him.
For the record, they did toy with the idea of making their fourth album self-titled. IIRC, it was after they decided to reject the name "Stream of Consciousness" as too pretentious and before JP came up with the title "Falling Into Infinity".

Personally, I thought it would have been more cool if they would have left the album untitled. They could've used the same artwork, etc. Something about an untitled album is much more mysterious than one with a title or one that's self-titled.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 14, 2014, 01:30:50 AM
Just curious, what's an example of an untitled album? Cause all the examples of 'coloured' albums that I know of would be technically self-titled anyway. Although a completely untitled album, that's curious.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 14, 2014, 01:41:50 AM
The album that is often referred to as Led Zeppelin IV is untitled, for instance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 14, 2014, 06:17:12 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 14, 2014, 01:20:57 AM
For the record, they did toy with the idea of making their fourth album self-titled. IIRC, it was after they decided to reject the name "Stream of Consciousness" as too pretentious and before JP came up with the title "Falling Into Infinity".

Personally, I thought it would have been more cool if they would have left the album untitled. They could've used the same artwork, etc. Something about an untitled album is much more mysterious than one with a title or one that's self-titled.

I have a feeling that leaving it untitled would've been considered even more pretentious than Stream of Consciousness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 14, 2014, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on July 14, 2014, 01:41:50 AM
The album that is often referred to as Led Zeppelin IV is untitled, for instance.
Yep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 14, 2014, 08:02:48 AM
Many of Peter Gabriel's albums are as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 14, 2014, 09:06:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on July 14, 2014, 08:02:48 AM
Many of Peter Gabriel's albums are as well.

All stolen from George Forman the boxer who named all his boys after himself.  All Georges. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 14, 2014, 09:27:48 AM
Korn has an album called Untitled and then another self titled one. Fucking bands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tofee35 on July 14, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
I've always liked the way that Weezer has handled their Self Titled albums: Blue Album, Green Album, Red Album. Each signified a drastic change in concept or design of the band's writing and sound.  DT's sound/concept changes so much from album to album, it's hard for me to pinpoint the "Dream Theater" album. I could have definitely seen the Weezer approach at IaW (breakout sound), SFAM (concept phase), SC (numetal phase), and ADTOE (Mangini phase?). I'm perfectly happy with what they've done though.

-Tof
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 14, 2014, 10:54:41 AM
Systematic Chaos nu metal?  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 14, 2014, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 14, 2014, 10:54:41 AM
Systematic Chaos nu metal?  ???
I wouldn't have thought so.  If anything, TOT could be seen as nu metal, but even that is tenuous at best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 14, 2014, 01:15:20 PM
i wouldn't even call Train of Thought nu metal. Angsty lyrics and a couple sort of rap sections do not equal nu metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 14, 2014, 01:17:35 PM
TOT is probably the most similar to nu metal, mostly because of HTF, but I still wouldn't ever try to actually call it a nu metal album.

I suppose TOT is nu metal in the same way that SFAM is Arabic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 14, 2014, 02:44:28 PM
TOT is Nu Metal in the same way that Awake is Grunge.  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 14, 2014, 03:35:46 PM
Over analysis is over analysis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 15, 2014, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 14, 2014, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 14, 2014, 10:54:41 AM
Systematic Chaos nu metal?  ???
I wouldn't have thought so.  If anything, TOT could be seen as nu metal, but even that is tenuous at best.

As is virtually always the case, the hefmeister is correct. Detuned metal with occasional spoken/harsh vocals =/= nu metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 15, 2014, 09:30:58 AM
 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on July 15, 2014, 11:41:14 AM
What is Nu Metal anyway?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 15, 2014, 11:42:18 AM
It's metal that is Nu.  But that's not what's important right now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 15, 2014, 12:03:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on July 15, 2014, 11:41:14 AM
What is Nu Metal anyway?

Not TOT.

Actually, "Nu metal (also known as new metal, neo-metal, nü-metal, or aggro-metal ) is a subgenre of heavy metal that combines metal music with hip hop, hardcore punk and grunge. It is classified as part of alternative metal." is the definition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 16, 2014, 12:14:24 AM
I read an interview with Petrucci from around when ToT came out and he said what bands he was listening to inspire the guitar sound on the album. I remember Chevelle was one of the bands. I like Chevelle, but I don't know if they are considered nu-metal. Just sayin' ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on July 16, 2014, 07:59:23 AM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 15, 2014, 12:03:08 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on July 15, 2014, 11:41:14 AM
What is Nu Metal anyway?

Not TOT.

Actually, "Nu metal (also known as new metal, neo-metal, nü-metal, or aggro-metal ) is a subgenre of heavy metal that combines metal music with hip hop, hardcore punk and grunge. It is classified as part of alternative metal." is the definition.

Then TOT is not Nu Metal and nothing that DT has put out is Nu Metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 16, 2014, 08:42:18 AM
No, it's not, strictly speaking.  But where the original criticism like that came from is that some of the tones and tunings that JP used on that album are apparently reminiscent of those used by numetal artists.

In other words, it's not a numetal album, but it contains some numetal influences.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 16, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
That's a more fair (and accurate) way of putting it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 16, 2014, 03:10:10 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 16, 2014, 08:42:18 AM
No, it's not, strictly speaking.  But where the original criticism like that came from is that some of the tones and tunings that JP used on that album are apparently reminiscent of those used by numetal artists.

In other words, it's not a numetal album, but it contains some numetal influences.

Not tones an tunings!  :omg:

Lol, what a thing to be picky about.  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 17, 2014, 02:27:20 PM
Not being picky.  I liked the stuff he used on that album.  Just trying to be as informative and precise as possible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 17, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 17, 2014, 02:27:20 PM
Not being picky.  I liked the stuff he used on that album.  Just trying to be as informative and precise as possible.

I wasn't referring to you. I mean people who take elements like tones and tuning and use them to lump DT in the same category as Nu Metal, and then claim that they don't like the album because it's too "Nu Metal" for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 17, 2014, 06:57:31 PM
James was experimenting with nu-metaly / alt rock/metal elements with 'Elements of Persuasion' citing influences such as; Mudvayne, Meshuggah, Linkin Park and Sevendust. But that's about as close as DT get to this fandangled nu-metal scene. And technically speaking isn't even DT but it had 2 of their current members playing on that album. Haha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2014, 07:11:45 PM
Meshuggah... nu metal?

???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 17, 2014, 08:06:43 PM
Yeah, hardly lol. That's why I said 'elements of' and included / alt metal as an alternative style among the influences JLB stated. I hesitated including Meshuggah for this very reason.  :xbones  But I figured it was still relevant as the album seems to be a hybrid of styles from all of the aforementioned bands but I think the others are probably more representative of the nu-metal influences.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 17, 2014, 08:24:34 PM
Ah, ok, that makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 18, 2014, 12:01:10 PM
Ok, here's a totally different topic: How come that in the 20+ years of their existence, DT has never done anything socially conscious? I was just checking on how Rush goes about their Meet & Greet tickets, and the first headline that popped up was "Rush auctions off their front row + M&G tickets for girl with leukemia".
Now, they obviously don't need to be a Bono, but given their substantial impact and visibility, you'd think they would use that, at least occasionally, for a good purpose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 18, 2014, 12:33:24 PM
It's entirely possible that they do that, and just don't publicize it very often.

Wasn't there something on one of the DVDs about some kid with some disease spending time with MP before a show?  Maybe it was Chaos DVD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 18, 2014, 12:38:22 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2014, 12:01:10 PM
Ok, here's a totally different topic: How come that in the 20+ years of their existence, DT has never done anything socially conscious? I was just checking on how Rush goes about their Meet & Greet tickets, and the first headline that popped up was "Rush auctions off their front row + M&G tickets for girl with leukemia".
Now, they obviously don't need to be a Bono, but given their substantial impact and visibility, you'd think they would use that, at least occasionally, for a good purpose.

Didn't they just do something a few years back? Why am I thinking that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 18, 2014, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 18, 2014, 12:33:24 PM
It's entirely possible that they do that, and just don't publicize it very often.

That's of course possible, but it certainly could only be on a small scale then, i.e. not involving the fans. As an example, they could do a small club gig, auction of the tickets and then donate the proceedings to a charity. And maybe film it like @ Ronnie Scott's.
I dunno, I sometimes wish DT got a bit "smaller" at times again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 19, 2014, 12:19:02 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 18, 2014, 12:33:24 PM
Wasn't there something on one of the DVDs about some kid with some disease spending time with MP before a show?  Maybe it was Chaos DVD.

Yeah, on Chaos in Motion DVD, there was a kid from the Grant a Wish foundation who wanted to meet MP and stuff. That was cool of them, although they all seemed a bit uncomfortable... At least that's what it seemed like to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 19, 2014, 06:40:39 AM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2014, 12:01:10 PM
Ok, here's a totally different topic: How come that in the 20+ years of their existence, DT has never done anything socially conscious? I was just checking on how Rush goes about their Meet & Greet tickets, and the first headline that popped up was "Rush auctions off their front row + M&G tickets for girl with leukemia".
Now, they obviously don't need to be a Bono, but given their substantial impact and visibility, you'd think they would use that, at least occasionally, for a good purpose.

 You mean something like this? https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-photo-book-in-the-works/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 19, 2014, 07:41:09 AM
Oh, cool. Weird that it didn't get any coverage here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 19, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
Even if a nu-metal sound can be heard in some of DTs music, who cares. I enjoy a lot of this socalled nu-metal. With DT, can't These Walls be called somewhat nu-metal? One of their best songs IMO.

Recently a friend gave me a CD by the band Bullet For My Valentine. Are they considered nu-metal? They have a mainstream sound but also very heavy with some clear speed metal influence in the music. Anyways, at a bunch of parts the guitar sound reminds me of how JPs guitar sounds on ToT.

But overall, ToT is waaaaay to complicated and long and complex to be considered nu-metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 19, 2014, 12:30:28 PM
I can honestly say I've never thought of nu-metal while listening to These Walls.

And I'm not saying this as someone who dislikes nu-metal, because I love a lot of it. It's just that DT has almost never sounded remotely "nu-metal", in my view.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 19, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 19, 2014, 12:30:28 PM
I can honestly say I've never thought of nu-metal while listening to These Walls.

And I'm not saying this as someone who dislikes nu-metal, because I love a lot of it. It's just that DT has almost never sounded remotely "nu-metal", in my view.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on July 19, 2014, 02:36:13 PM
I don't hear nu-metal in These Walls. And I listen to it a lot. (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37278.msg1650876#msg1650876)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 19, 2014, 03:54:48 PM
If i had to slap a label on TW, it would be Pop Metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 19, 2014, 05:15:55 PM
To be specific, it's post symphonic emotimetal alt-crunch epipop.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 20, 2014, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 19, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
Even if a nu-metal sound can be heard in some of DTs music, who cares. I enjoy a lot of this socalled nu-metal. With DT, can't These Walls be called somewhat nu-metal? One of their best songs IMO.

I think it has qualities to be a nu-metal song with some of the techniques like the guitar style (minus the part that it's tuned to A), and even the synth sounds emulating the sort of electronic vibe that can be an aspect to that sort of of music, it's the kind of song I could imagine a band like Linkin Park writing but I guess that wouldn't necessarily make it strictly nu-metal by association. Also the vocal style probably helps the song shy away form these comparisons. Just wanted to comment on it again cause I can see where you're coming from I think.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 20, 2014, 02:00:15 AM
I think it has some influence from nu-metal bands, but I wouldn't call it a nu-metal song. It's a modern metal song with nu-metal influences and the usual DT touches. Whatever you want to call it, I love the song, so beyond that I don't care much for classification. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 20, 2014, 05:06:15 AM
I've never heard These Walls described as "numetal" in any way until that post up there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 20, 2014, 06:10:31 AM
It's the guitaring and structure of the song more than anything. And it's perhaps just a stylistic influence creeping through rather than a suitable definition for the song. I'm surprised you havnt at least heard someone mention These Walls might have been 'nu-metal influenced' since 2005 considering that albums seems to be all about the references and subtle tributes to various influences. For the record, These Walls tends to remind me of From The Inside by LP if it's a song anyone is familiar with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 20, 2014, 08:09:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 20, 2014, 05:06:15 AM
I've never heard These Walls described as "numetal" in any way until that post up there.

Yeah this.  That description is a big swing and miss.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on July 20, 2014, 09:08:57 AM
I don't know if this is "controversial" or whatever but "These Walls" is the best non-epic song DT have done since Rudess joined the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 20, 2014, 10:05:17 AM
Quote from: Skeever on July 20, 2014, 09:08:57 AM
I don't know if this is "controversial" or whatever but "These Walls" is the best non-epic song DT have done since Rudess joined the band.

While I would disagree, it's definitely an underrated gem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 20, 2014, 10:05:26 AM
Quote from: Skeever on July 20, 2014, 09:08:57 AM
I don't know if this is "controversial" or whatever but "These Walls" is the best non-epic song DT have done since Rudess joined the band.

I'd rank it top 20, and I think it's one of their best short structured songs ever. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 20, 2014, 10:06:47 AM
During the final pre-chorus, where James goes, "Watch me fading, I'm losing.." the strings that are played in the background make it so awesome.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on July 20, 2014, 11:31:42 AM
It's my number 1 :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on July 20, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
These Walls is most def top 5 - 10 for me...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 20, 2014, 03:51:20 PM
When discussing more straightforward songs to play with my DT tribute band back in the day, TW was the immediate shoe-in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on July 22, 2014, 09:39:00 PM
Systematic Chaos is a really good album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 22, 2014, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on July 22, 2014, 09:39:00 PM
Systematic Chaos is a really good album.

Ever had a conversation
That you realise you've had before
Isn't it strange

Have you ever talked to someone
And you feel you know what's coming next
It feels pre-arranged

'Cause you know that you've heard it before
And you feel that this moment in time is surreal
'Cause you know when you feel deja-vu



Winter Rose is more enjoyable that SC and BCSL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 22, 2014, 09:57:53 PM
Funny you should mention Black Clouds. I just listened to that album all of the way through, and it's still one of my favorites.
 
In fact, I think The Best of Times is better than Take Away My Pain or Another Day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 22, 2014, 10:00:21 PM
Quote from: Grizz on July 22, 2014, 09:57:53 PM
In fact, I think The Best of Times is better than Take Away My Pain or Another Day.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on July 22, 2014, 10:08:32 PM
Quote from: Zook on July 22, 2014, 09:42:27 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on July 22, 2014, 09:39:00 PM
Systematic Chaos is a really good album.

Ever had a conversation
That you realise you've had before
Isn't it strange

Have you ever talked to someone
And you feel you know what's coming next
It feels pre-arranged

'Cause you know that you've heard it before
And you feel that this moment in time is surreal
'Cause you know when you feel deja-vu


I always liked this one.  Very underrated.  They should have played this instead of HCW.

Quote from: Grizz on July 22, 2014, 09:57:53 PM
In fact, I think The Best of Times is better than Take Away My Pain or Another Day.

TAMP maybe, but AD, no freakin' way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:
I'll agree with that. And I don't even think TAMP is top 50 material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:17:47 PM
And if you take a look at the above two posts, you'll see two clearly insane individuals. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 22, 2014, 10:18:28 PM
How about this: Another Day is by far the worst song on I&W.

Not really sure if that's controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on July 22, 2014, 10:21:19 PM
It does seem to sit at or very near the bottom for the majority.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on July 22, 2014, 10:31:16 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:

Quote from: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:
I'll agree with that. And I don't even think TAMP is top 50 material.

Seriously?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:35:51 PM
Quote from: wolfking on July 22, 2014, 10:31:16 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:

Quote from: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:
I'll agree with that. And I don't even think TAMP is top 50 material.

Seriously?
Yep. Metropolis has some pretty good sections, but the instrumental part is one of my least favorite things DT has ever produced. I'm sure I'll get similar responses to that statement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 22, 2014, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 22, 2014, 10:18:28 PM
How about this: Another Day is by far the worst song on I&W.

Not really sure if that's controversial.

That's not controversial. But it is wrong. :biggrin:

I think LTL is easily the weakest song on IAW. It's the only weak link in an otherwise perfect album. The vocal melodies early on really let down the song down, due to cramming in all of those lyrics, and it has a really weak chorus. If it weren't for that, the song would be great, but still far from the best on the album.

That's how you do controversial, son. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on July 22, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
That's definitely controversial. I think it's wonderful, the odd vocal melodies and phrasings are one of my favorite things.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
I'm honestly surprised Another Day comes so low into people's I&W track-rankings. It's probably around middle of the line for me, but it's still fantastic.

Weakest song on I&W is by far and away Surrounded (which is still a great song), but that's not too controversial now is it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:53:08 PM
Surrounded is probably my favorite song on I&W. Looks like I have everything backwards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 22, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
I'm honestly surprised Another Day comes so low into people's I&W track-rankings. It's probably around middle of the line for me, but it's still fantastic.

Weakest song on I&W is by far and away Surrounded (which is still a great song), but that's not too controversial now is it?

The past few years Surrounded seems to be ranked a lot higher among many DTF'ers, so that's probably controversial. Another Day seems to be the most disliked, probably because it's an awesomely '80s power ballad inspired song. To me that just makes it awesomer!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:55:55 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 22, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
I'm honestly surprised Another Day comes so low into people's I&W track-rankings. It's probably around middle of the line for me, but it's still fantastic.

Weakest song on I&W is by far and away Surrounded (which is still a great song), but that's not too controversial now is it?

The past few years Surrounded seems to be ranked a lot higher among many DTF'ers, so that's probably controversial. Another Day seems to be the most disliked, probably because it's an awesomely '80s power ballad inspired song. To me that just makes it awesomer!

Damn, I had no idea. It certainly doesn't get the attention or buzz that songs like LTL or Metropolis do, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on July 22, 2014, 11:03:35 PM
The weakest song on I&W is..............














































......still better than just about anything else ever released  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on July 22, 2014, 11:09:05 PM
How about this :  Since the day Octavarium was released, I've thought that I Walk Beside You is DT's best song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 11:38:03 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:17:47 PM
And if you take a look at the above two posts, you'll see two clearly insane individuals. :biggrin:
Quote from: wolfking on July 22, 2014, 10:31:16 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:

Quote from: Tom Bombadil on July 22, 2014, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: GasparXR on July 22, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
How about this one -- I think Take Away My Pain is better than Metropolis Pt. 1. :biggrin:
I'll agree with that. And I don't even think TAMP is top 50 material.

Seriously?

Yes. I on the other hand would put both songs in my top 50. I don't consider TAMP a HUGE step over Metropolis either. It just so happens that I enjoy it a bit more. I would probably even put Metropolis as my least favourite Images and Words song, with Another Day and Learning to Live as my favourites.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 23, 2014, 01:37:56 AM
Quote from: adastra on July 22, 2014, 11:09:05 PM
How about this :  Since the day Octavarium was released, I've thought that I Walk Beside You is DT's best song!
Alright, I've had enough of this nonsense!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: thedrumanimal on July 23, 2014, 02:38:23 AM
Quote from: Grizz on July 22, 2014, 09:57:53 PM

In fact, I think The Best of Times is better than Take Away My Pain or Another Day.

 :tup The best of times is an amazing song with the best JP guitar solo on a DT record. The other two songs are among my least favourite DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: thedrumanimal on July 23, 2014, 02:48:17 AM
There was a time when I wished that JLB whould play the rhythm guitar while JP is soloing.  :eek

In fact, I do not even know if James plays guitar. The only occasion I remember James playing an instrument was the intro of 8V, near the end were JR plays the slide guitar. But I dont think that this was real "playing" since he just pushed the pre-recorded sample-buttons of the Oaysis (was it the Oaysis at that time?).

However, still today I think that some solos miss a bit of punch live, since the rhythm git is missing. Sometimes to snarling pig from JR helps, but it is not the same for me. The Glass prison live always was a good example for me - the instumental section were JP and JR are trading solos. While the JR solo with the rhythm git played really slaps you in the face, the part in which JP is soloing comes along a bit thin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
Alright, here's some controversy: I really really like the extended version of surrounded, found on CiM. Yeah, the vocals aren't top-notch, and I don't like the main solo-part that much (that unison in particular), but I love how everything builds up, and that extended guitar solo is a thing of beauty. The way it just builds and builds from the simple Sugar Mice motif until it climaxes in the Mother solo is great, and it makes the transition into the last part ("I know it's easier") a lot smoother, in my opinion - I always found that one the slightest bit clunky... not bad, but not quite as good as some other transitions that I know DT are capable of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 23, 2014, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
Alright, here's some controversy: I really really like the extended version of surrounded, found on CiM. Yeah, the vocals aren't top-notch, and I don't like the main solo-part that much (that unison in particular), but I love how everything builds up, and that extended guitar solo is a thing of beauty. The way it just builds and builds from the simple Sugar Mice motif until it climaxes in the Mother solo is great, and it makes the transition into the last part ("I know it's easier") a lot smoother, in my opinion - I always found that one the slightest bit clunky... not bad, but not quite as good as some other transitions that I know DT are capable of.

How much of that was the Marillion cover and how much of it was just extended instrumental?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on July 23, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
I think it was just the one line that JLB sang that was the reference to Sugar Mice. The rest was just a jam around G/C chords.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 09:08:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 23, 2014, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
Alright, here's some controversy: I really really like the extended version of surrounded, found on CiM. Yeah, the vocals aren't top-notch, and I don't like the main solo-part that much (that unison in particular), but I love how everything builds up, and that extended guitar solo is a thing of beauty. The way it just builds and builds from the simple Sugar Mice motif until it climaxes in the Mother solo is great, and it makes the transition into the last part ("I know it's easier") a lot smoother, in my opinion - I always found that one the slightest bit clunky... not bad, but not quite as good as some other transitions that I know DT are capable of.

How much of that was the Marillion cover and how much of it was just extended instrumental?

The opening of the guitar solo is basically the main guitar motif of Sugar Mice (check out here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COmtBk6lYo)), and it builds on that during at least the first half of the solo, where that guitar motif is the centrepiece of the solo. Plus, of course, that whole "I know what I want" part, that's lifted straight from Sugar Mice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 23, 2014, 09:33:33 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 09:08:13 PM
The opening of the guitar solo is basically the main guitar motif of Sugar Mice (check out here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6COmtBk6lYo)), and it builds on that during at least the first half of the solo, where that guitar motif is the centrepiece of the solo. Plus, of course, that whole "I know what I want" part, that's lifted straight from Sugar Mice.

Very cool.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on July 26, 2014, 08:08:43 AM
Controversial opinion...

I am loving the current lineup and would not want to see MM leave in favor of MP coming back. They all seem like they are having more fun on stage now, and the music is re energized as well!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 26, 2014, 09:03:03 AM
Quote from: Tick on July 26, 2014, 08:08:43 AM
Controversial opinion...

I am loving the current lineup and would not want to see MM leave in favor of MP coming back. They all seem like they are having more fun on stage now, and the music is re energized as well!

I'm not sure how controversial that is. I'm quite sure that a lot of, if not most DT fans feel the same way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on July 26, 2014, 09:42:48 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 26, 2014, 09:03:03 AM
Quote from: Tick on July 26, 2014, 08:08:43 AM
Controversial opinion...

I am loving the current lineup and would not want to see MM leave in favor of MP coming back. They all seem like they are having more fun on stage now, and the music is re energized as well!

I'm not sure how controversial that is. I'm quite sure that a lot of, if not most DT fans feel the same way.
Really? I didn't think that was the case. Ok, then....good to hear!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on July 26, 2014, 05:21:39 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 26, 2014, 09:03:03 AM
Quote from: Tick on July 26, 2014, 08:08:43 AM
Controversial opinion...

I am loving the current lineup and would not want to see MM leave in favor of MP coming back. They all seem like they are having more fun on stage now, and the music is re energized as well!

I'm not sure how controversial that is. I'm quite sure that a lot of, if not most DT fans feel the same way.

I do not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 26, 2014, 05:23:37 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on July 26, 2014, 05:21:39 PM
I do not.

Well, I never said ALL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 26, 2014, 06:54:17 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on July 23, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
I really really like the extended version of surrounded, found on CiM. Yeah, the vocals aren't top-notch, and I don't like the main solo-part that much (that unison in particular), but I love how everything builds up, and that extended guitar solo is a thing of beauty.

Try I&W 15th Anniversary version, it's extended like the other performances in '07 but has much better vocal performance. Actually, vocals on all songs are pretty top notch on that CD (including Take The Time), especially when comparing to Chaos in Motion...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on July 26, 2014, 07:07:21 PM
Not sure if all of these are controversial, but lets go:

In the Presence of Enemies Part 1 is the best opener on any DT album (even though Systematic Chaos as a whole is one of their worst albums)

As much as I don't like the album, Constant Motion is actually not a bad song. It's actually my most listened to DT-song, and it has a pretty catchy chorus. Not saying it's the best or anything, but if DT wanted to make a Metallica-sounding single with it, they did a pretty good job IMO

Breaking All Illusions is the best +10 minute song since 6DOIT (yes, that means I hold it even higher than Octavarium)

If you chose to count it as one song, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is the best DT epic IMO

While the songs individually might not all be up among DT's best, the twelve step suite is actually one of the more interesting things they've done

Train of Thought is not as bad as the reputation it has gotten, and with the exception of ADTOE, it's the best album to have come out of DT's last 11 years

Falling Into Infinity is despite of label interference one of the better DT albums. I would rank it at nr5. It might have some lame attempts at writing radio hits, but there's also several really great tracks like "Lines in the Sand" and "Trial of Tears"

Disappear is the most emotional, and also the best DT song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on July 26, 2014, 08:29:07 PM
Hopefully I'll be able to post more on here at later times, but I want to begin by saying that I think "Falling Into Infinity" is one of the most UNDER-rated albums ever! I like variety, and this disc has tons of it.  I thought that was what made us fans to begin with! It has songs that are "rockers" such as "burning My Soul" and "just Let Me Breathe," and "epics" such as "Lines in the Sand" and "Trial of Tears" "ballads" like DER!-"Hollow Years," "funky" songs like "new Millennium" and "You Not Me." What's not to Like? There SHOULD be at least one or two songs on this album that all the DT audiance should like!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SuperTaco on July 26, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on July 20, 2014, 06:10:31 AM
It's the guitaring and structure of the song more than anything. And it's perhaps just a stylistic influence creeping through rather than a suitable definition for the song. I'm surprised you havnt at least heard someone mention These Walls might have been 'nu-metal influenced' since 2005 considering that albums seems to be all about the references and subtle tributes to various influences. For the record, These Walls tends to remind me of From The Inside by LP if it's a song anyone is familiar with.

I quoted you just to say that "From The Inside" is a great song from a great album that has huge sentimental value for me :) Same with Hybrid Theory. They got me through some really hard times.

As for a controversial opinion... I never once thought that Charlies vocals were out of place on WDADU. I do remember being surprised at hearing a different singer when I listened to it for the first time, but I got used to it. WDADU is a gem in my eyes, and I wouldn't change anything about it. For me, it really represents a moment in time. A time when these guys were trying to seriously make it in the music business while still having a ton of youthful energy. They were very talented, but also raw in their abilities. It's hard to explain in depth but there are many reasons that make it my favorite DT album ever.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 26, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
My controversial opinion would be that LMR is Jordan's strongest album in a long time. It has an LTE feel to it, and just an ease of play that makes you realize that that kind of music is his home turf.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 26, 2014, 08:56:19 PM
Quote from: Zantera on July 26, 2014, 07:07:21 PM


As much as I don't like the album, Constant Motion is actually not a bad song. It's actually my most listened to DT-song, and it has a pretty catchy chorus. Not saying it's the best or anything, but if DT wanted to make a Metallica-sounding single with it, they did a pretty good job IMO

You are no longer allowed to criticize DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 26, 2014, 10:55:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 26, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
My controversial opinion would be that LMR is Jordan's strongest album in a long time. It has an LTE feel to it, and just an ease of play that makes you realize that that kind of music is his home turf.

While I didn't really like the music much, I agree. The LTE vibe is obvious, and it reminded me that there's a whole side of JR that's almost non-existent in modern DT, to their detriment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on July 27, 2014, 03:52:05 AM
Quote from: rumborak on July 26, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
My controversial opinion would be that LMR is Jordan's strongest album in a long time. It has an LTE feel to it, and just an ease of play that makes you realize that that kind of music is his home turf.

I agree, some of his parts are very fun, creative and uplifting, something that has been missing for a while from DT (with the exception of TCOT and parts of ADTOE).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on July 27, 2014, 09:58:57 AM
On Falling Into Infinity: it would definitely be one of my favorites if it was more consistent. Two of my bottom three DT songs are on this record. However, it also has some of the highest high points of any DT album; Trial of Tears and Peruvian Skies are some of the best songs the band has written. The former is my second favorite song from the current setlist, and was the best part of the concert I saw in April.

Systematic Chaos is, from what I have seen so far on these forums, highly underrated. While it does not breach my top 5 DT albums, it is not too far removed from them, and is their best album since Train of Thought. I prefer the silly fantasy lyrics on the album to most DT lyrics. Even though I only truly love three of the seven songs on SC, those three songs make up well over half of its runtime. I also like MP's backing vocals on this album much more than on Black Clouds, though I consider the chorus of The Count of Tuscany to be the best example of them. They are sorely missed on the Happy Holidays version of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 27, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: SuperTaco on July 26, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on July 20, 2014, 06:10:31 AM
It's the guitaring and structure of the song more than anything. And it's perhaps just a stylistic influence creeping through rather than a suitable definition for the song. I'm surprised you havnt at least heard someone mention These Walls might have been 'nu-metal influenced' since 2005 considering that albums seems to be all about the references and subtle tributes to various influences. For the record, These Walls tends to remind me of From The Inside by LP if it's a song anyone is familiar with.

I quoted you just to say that "From The Inside" is a great song from a great album that has huge sentimental value for me :) Same with Hybrid Theory. They got me through some really hard times.

As for a controversial opinion... I never once thought that Charlies vocals were out of place on WDADU. I do remember being surprised at hearing a different singer when I listened to it for the first time, but I got used to it. WDADU is a gem in my eyes, and I wouldn't change anything about it. For me, it really represents a moment in time. A time when these guys were trying to seriously make it in the music business while still having a ton of youthful energy. They were very talented, but also raw in their abilities. It's hard to explain in depth but there are many reasons that make it my favorite DT album ever.

Yes! From The Inside is one of my favorites, I remember when I saw them live back in '07, they used that song about 4 or 5 songs into the set, to kick in the big screen and crazy light show; after the short intro build up the curtains fell behind them as the guitars kicked in and the stage just burst into life, it was a very epic moment. They also played Minutes to Midnight songs with a bit more of an edge. More electric guitar saturation which is exactly what their newer material is missing. The new songs at the time gave a much better impression live.  :metal

Hybrid Theory and Meteora are complete classics! I'll always love them. :tup I used to be quite into LP and they're still a great live band today because they still go for that' classic rock' concert vibe of the 'good ol days'. But after the shift somewhere during or after Minutes to Midnight they lost me a little bit and I REALLY tried to like them. A Thousand Suns and Living Things had moments that almost reminded me of their old style but it was just too different overall. I know a lot of fans that had similar experiences following this band.  :xbones I'll always give them a chance if they release something new though. Curious, what are your thoughts on The Hunting Party? If you've heard it yet?

And to stay more on topic, I love WDADU aswell, it's at least as complex and intricate in it's compositions as I&W in my opinion, completely underrated and a total classic. Which is still somewhat of a controvesial opinion around here. Charlie's vocals are mostly great. Except for that really messed up part in The Killing Hand, dunno what happened there. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on July 27, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

It's definitely overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:34:48 PM
It's easily my least favourite song from ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 27, 2014, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

 :huh: But... that Floyd style organwork, with those delicate side snare taps on the drums during one of the most epic JP guitar solos. This part should cause one to disregard any perception of the rest of the song and transform anyones view into realising it as a masterpiece. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on July 27, 2014, 09:21:03 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 26, 2014, 10:55:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 26, 2014, 08:52:34 PM
My controversial opinion would be that LMR is Jordan's strongest album in a long time. It has an LTE feel to it, and just an ease of play that makes you realize that that kind of music is his home turf.

While I didn't really like the music much, I agree. The LTE vibe is obvious, and it reminded me that there's a whole side of JR that's almost non-existent in modern DT, to their detriment.

I love LMR, and everything other word you said about it is absolutely correct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on July 27, 2014, 09:41:32 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on July 27, 2014, 06:42:58 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

 :huh: But... that Floyd style organwork, with those delicate side snare taps on the drums during one of the most epic JP guitar solos. This part should cause one to disregard any perception of the rest of the song and transform anyones view into realising it as a masterpiece. :P
Great guitar solo. Could live without the rest though. A bit of a "by the numbers" epic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on July 27, 2014, 09:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 27, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

It's definitely overrated.

I don't think it's sub par, but I do think it's quite overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on July 27, 2014, 09:49:09 PM
Speaking of ADTOE: I think OTBOA is easily the best song on that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 27, 2014, 10:02:19 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 27, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

It's definitely overrated.

Breaking All Illusions is UNDERrated and a great song. It is, in fact, Dream Theater's best song.  :heart



Not only does it have this:

Quote from: Rodni Demental on July 27, 2014, 06:42:58 PM
:huh: But... that Floyd style organwork, with those delicate side snare taps on the drums during one of the most epic JP guitar solos. This part should cause one to disregard any perception of the rest of the song and transform anyones view into realising it as a masterpiece. :P

But it also has 9:51. That riff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 27, 2014, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: wolfking on July 27, 2014, 09:44:20 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on July 27, 2014, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

It's definitely overrated.

I don't think it's sub par, but I do think it's quite overrated.

That. I think it's a good song overall, but not that great. It has a lot of cool little moments in there that I wish they'd expanded, but also a lot of music that doesn't do much for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 28, 2014, 01:07:53 AM
Quote from: 425 on July 27, 2014, 10:02:19 PM
But it also has 9:51. That riff.

I always thought the best part of the song was the one just before 9:51 (starting at 9:06). Actually, this is when i expected the song to get really good but, after 9:51, it got pretty meh  :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on July 28, 2014, 03:25:24 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 27, 2014, 06:31:48 PM
Have I said this one before ?

Breaking All Illusions is a really sub par song.

BAI and BtS are the only redeemable parts about ADTOE imo. Pretty much all songs before them are run-of-the-mill DT songs. On the Backs of Angels is a pretty solid single though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on July 28, 2014, 11:23:42 AM
Quote from: Zantera on July 28, 2014, 03:25:24 AM
Pretty much all songs before them are run-of-the-mill DT songs.

This is one of the reasons that I like ADToE so much. The songs are fairly safe while retaining a high quality. When I am trying to introduce people to DT, I show them this album first so that they can get a good impression of the band's typical sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 28, 2014, 12:39:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 22, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 22, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
I'm honestly surprised Another Day comes so low into people's I&W track-rankings. It's probably around middle of the line for me, but it's still fantastic.

Weakest song on I&W is by far and away Surrounded (which is still a great song), but that's not too controversial now is it?

The past few years Surrounded seems to be ranked a lot higher among many DTF'ers, so that's probably controversial. Another Day seems to be the most disliked, probably because it's an awesomely '80s power ballad inspired song. To me that just makes it awesomer!

I could be mistaken, but I think the open love for Surrounded in recent years stems from a couple of factors:
(1)  I think most fans probably liked it to begin with, but rank it somewhere near the middle-tier in I&W.  As such, I just don't think there was a strong motivation to discuss it.  The most-liked and least-liked songs then to draw more attention and discussion time.
(2)  The CiM version seems to have caused a lot of people to revisit the song and either be reminded of their previous feelings for the song or discover that they like it more than they thought they did. 


As for Another Day, I think you are away off base.  I disliked the song from day 1, and you know I love me some '80s power ballads.  My dislike has nothing to do with any supposed resemblance to an '80s power ballad.  I just don't like it because it isn't a very good song.  In fact, to your point, I would say it is nothing like an '80s power ballad.  Ballad?  Yes.  '80s power ballad?  Not remotely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SuperTaco on July 28, 2014, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on July 27, 2014, 06:20:22 PM

Yes! From The Inside is one of my favorites, I remember when I saw them live back in '07, they used that song about 4 or 5 songs into the set, to kick in the big screen and crazy light show; after the short intro build up the curtains fell behind them as the guitars kicked in and the stage just burst into life, it was a very epic moment. They also played Minutes to Midnight songs with a bit more of an edge. More electric guitar saturation which is exactly what their newer material is missing. The new songs at the time gave a much better impression live.  :metal

Hybrid Theory and Meteora are complete classics! I'll always love them. :tup I used to be quite into LP and they're still a great live band today because they still go for that' classic rock' concert vibe of the 'good ol days'. But after the shift somewhere during or after Minutes to Midnight they lost me a little bit and I REALLY tried to like them. A Thousand Suns and Living Things had moments that almost reminded me of their old style but it was just too different overall. I know a lot of fans that had similar experiences following this band.  :xbones I'll always give them a chance if they release something new though. Curious, what are your thoughts on The Hunting Party? If you've heard it yet?

And to stay more on topic, I love WDADU aswell, it's at least as complex and intricate in it's compositions as I&W in my opinion, completely underrated and a total classic. Which is still somewhat of a controvesial opinion around here. Charlie's vocals are mostly great. Except for that really messed up part in The Killing Hand, dunno what happened there. :lol

I haven't had the good fortune of being able to see them live. The Hunting Party restored my faith in the band almost completely. They can still be aggressive and that's awesome. I noticed a similarity in how they produced the guitars compared to HT/Meteora. They have that extra deep low end that really drives the sound and I missed that.

I feel somewhat embarrassed to say this, but I'm not sure what part of The Killing Hand you're mentioning. I'll have to go and listen to it again, but I haven't noticed any messed up part :P Perhaps I just enjoy the album that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 28, 2014, 09:33:11 PM
Still very surprised by the lack of love for Another Day. :o

I agree, it sounds nothing like an '80's power ballad, but very much like a DT ballad, and one of their best at that. Very moving song imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 28, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 28, 2014, 12:39:39 PM
As for Another Day, I think you are away off base.  I disliked the song from day 1, and you know I love me some '80s power ballads.  My dislike has nothing to do with any supposed resemblance to an '80s power ballad.  I just don't like it because it isn't a very good song.  In fact, to your point, I would say it is nothing like an '80s power ballad.  Ballad?  Yes.  '80s power ballad?  Not remotely.

To be fair bosky, your opinions on IaW are a bit oddball, so I'm not counting you! :lol (I have nothing against oddball, I live for oddball)
I do regularly see people here criticize the song for sounding similar to an '80s power ballad, whether right or wrong. I'm not saying you could just stick it on a White Lion album and you're good to go, but I think there are inspirations in the arrangement, chord progressions and melodies. As usual, it still has that strong DT sound to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 28, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
Another Day is my favorite song from I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2014, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 28, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
I do regularly see people here criticize the song for sounding similar to an '80s power ballad, whether right or wrong. I'm not saying you could just stick it on a White Lion album and you're good to go, but I think there are inspirations in the arrangement, chord progressions and melodies. As usual, it still has that strong DT sound to it.
It's definitely as close to that as DT ever got.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on July 29, 2014, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2014, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 28, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
I do regularly see people here criticize the song for sounding similar to an '80s power ballad, whether right or wrong. I'm not saying you could just stick it on a White Lion album and you're good to go, but I think there are inspirations in the arrangement, chord progressions and melodies. As usual, it still has that strong DT sound to it.
It's definitely as close to that as DT ever got.

Maybe Status Seeker, but that's not a ballad at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on July 29, 2014, 01:10:32 PM
I never thought of Another Day as an 80's power ballad, but that description totally fits it  :lol

I always loved Another Day for 2:05, and the contrasting sound that part invokes after listening to the heavy Pull Me Under
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on July 30, 2014, 04:45:32 AM
It's great track with especially special vocals, JLB is biggest reason I like Another Day. And it is still one of the least best (not to say worst :P ) on IaW
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 30, 2014, 09:20:49 AM
Every song on I&W is pretty damn awesome, so being the worst/least best song on that record is sort of like being the least best-looking supermodel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 03, 2014, 10:42:59 PM
James Labrie is the greatest rock singer to ever walk this earth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 10:44:44 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 03, 2014, 10:42:59 PM
James Labrie is the greatest rock singer to ever walk this earth.

This is an opinion thread, so if he's the greatest ever in your opinion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.  :tup

He's certainly my favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 10:53:26 PM
Yeah, he's definitely under-appreciated, mostly by people that a so used to fake and digitally saturated vocals that they can't appreciate when someone actually uses proper vocal technique.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 10:57:05 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 10:53:26 PM
Yeah, he's definitely under-appreciated, mostly by people that a so used to fake and digitally saturated vocals that they can't appreciate when someone actually uses proper vocal technique.

What saddens me the most is that he's underappreciated by people who are actual fans of classic rock and can appreciate vocalists like Robert Plant, Geddy Lee, Bruce Dickinson, etc. It's a damn shame that so many of them live in the 70s and 80s, and can't appreciate one of the greatest bands that happened to have their breakthrough album in the 90s and never really became a mainstream legend that they deserve to be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
Haha wow.. Well if someone appreciates Geddy Lee and Bruce Dickinson then I can't possibly understand why they don't like James Labrie.  :\

Especially poor ol' Geddy, very unique style that doesn't click for some people. And I've heard people that are into more modern metal that can't stand Bruce Dickonson's operatic style yet they love the sort of vocalists that get really hungry for cookies. Although I concede, perhaps the latter is a style that I lack appreciation for. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
Haha wow.. Well if someone appreciates Geddy Lee and Bruce Dickinson then I can't possibly understand why they don't like James Labrie.  :\

Especially poor ol' Geddy, very unique style that doesn't click for some people. And I've heard people that are into more modern metal that can't stand Bruce Dickonson's operatic style but they love the sort of vocalists that get really hungry for cookies. :lol

Well, I'd guess it's not so much a matter of not liking James LaBrie, so much as never really bothering to listen to DT with an attentive ear, and really focus on how damn awesome he is.

One of the most pathetic things I've ever heard was, "I don't listen to anything that came after the 70s."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
Haha wow.. Well if someone appreciates Geddy Lee and Bruce Dickinson then I can't possibly understand why they don't like James Labrie.  :\

Especially poor ol' Geddy, very unique style that doesn't click for some people. And I've heard people that are into more modern metal that can't stand Bruce Dickonson's operatic style but they love the sort of vocalists that get really hungry for cookies. :lol

Well, I'd guess it's not so much a matter of not liking James LaBrie, so much as never really bothering to listen to DT with an attentive ear, and really focus on how damn awesome he is.
Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands and I feel that I've listened to their music very in depth and attentively. That said, I still don't really like JLB's singing. He's not a bad vocalist and he's certainly had his stellar moments, but I wouldn't choose him when considering my favorite vocalists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands and I feel that I've listened to their music very in depth and attentively. That said, I still don't really like JLB's singing. He's not a bad vocalist and he's certainly had his stellar moments, but I wouldn't choose him when considering my favorite vocalists.

Yeah, but it's not a matter of liking him, it's a matter of appreciating his range, and his ability, and stamina, and just what he's capable of as a vocalist. Surely you can at least appreciate that much.

I mean, personally, I really don't like Brian Johnson's voice, and he's the main reason I don't listen to AC/DC, but I can still appreciate his ability and what he's capable of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:44:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands and I feel that I've listened to their music very in depth and attentively. That said, I still don't really like JLB's singing. He's not a bad vocalist and he's certainly had his stellar moments, but I wouldn't choose him when considering my favorite vocalists.

Yeah, but it's not a matter of liking him, it's a matter of appreciating his range, and his ability, and stamina, and just what he's capable of as a vocalist. Surely you can at least appreciate that much.
Sure I'll give him that. I just wouldn't put him in the same league as someone like Bruce Dickinson.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:51:52 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:44:17 PM
Sure I'll give him that. I just wouldn't put him in the same league as someone like Bruce Dickinson.

See, I don't understand why. I mean, it's not like Dickinson has a significantly higher range, or better technique. Yes, he has a shitload more stage presence, and as far as being a frontman, as far as being able to bring the crowd excitement up, he's pretty much second to none. But in terms of sheer singing ability and vocal technique, he's just as good if not better than Dickinson. Their techniques are very different, and both have different strengths and weaknesses, but there's nothing about Dickinson's singing that puts him into some kind of a higher echelon than JLB.
That you don't enjoy the quality of his voice as much is purely a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 03, 2014, 11:52:18 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:44:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Dream Theater is one of my favorite bands and I feel that I've listened to their music very in depth and attentively. That said, I still don't really like JLB's singing. He's not a bad vocalist and he's certainly had his stellar moments, but I wouldn't choose him when considering my favorite vocalists.

Yeah, but it's not a matter of liking him, it's a matter of appreciating his range, and his ability, and stamina, and just what he's capable of as a vocalist. Surely you can at least appreciate that much.
Sure I'll give him that. I just wouldn't put him in the same league as someone like Bruce Dickinson.

Doesn't need to be in the 'same league' either and besides, that's probably gonna come down to differing opinions and preferences too. And we're allowed to have personal taste. I mean some vocalists have a tone that just doesn't appeal to some people, but might sound amazing to another individual. I think the issue I take is the people who write him off before considering or appreciating those other details and just concluding that he's a terrible vocalist. And consequently, writing off the whole band in some cases!

I like the ACDC example, because I've heard people describe Axel Rose and Brian Johnson as dying cats. It's not really my favourite style of vocals but I like to think I can still appreciate their style for what they are, and I couldn't say they're bad singers because it's simply not true. Unless somewhere in your definition of a 'bad singer' includes the exact elements you find distasteful in the vocalist you're listening to, I suppose it can be viewed as more valid in that regard but is still probably a very one sided perspective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 03, 2014, 11:51:52 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 03, 2014, 11:44:17 PM
Sure I'll give him that. I just wouldn't put him in the same league as someone like Bruce Dickinson.
That you don't enjoy the quality of his voice as much is purely a matter of taste.
Well, all of this is a matter of taste. It's more than me enjoying the quality of his voice though. I think Bruce's voice has more character, I feel that he puts more feeling and emotion into his singing. Not that JLB doesn't have any of these qualities, but I think he's a few steps below Bruce in that department. I also think Bruce's voice has more consistency. There was one period where he wasn't performing well live, but aside from that he's had very few bad nights that I've heard and his voice has aged very gracefully. JLB is a lot more hit and miss in this respect and while I'll give him leeway because of the food poisoning incident, it's still a factor. I also think Bruce hits his high notes with much more grace, accuracy, and strength than JLB. This is including JLB's performances on I&W and Awake. All these things keep JLB a step below Dickinson IMHO. But this is all taste, I can totally understand how someone would hear these things differently. Besides, saying he's a step below Dickinson really isn't all that bad considering how top tier Dickinson is.

It also helped seeing Iron Maiden and DT live in 2010. There was a very huge difference in quality between the singers at the show I saw.

Also, I don't dislike JLB by any means. I do think he is a good singer and has his amazing moments. I love his singing on Awake and with the last two albums and tours he's only gotten better. He was absolutely on point when I saw them this year.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 12:33:38 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
Well, all of this is a matter of taste. It's more than me enjoying the quality of his voice though. I think Bruce's voice has more character, I feel that he puts more feeling and emotion into his singing. Not that JLB doesn't have any of these qualities, but I think he's a few steps below Bruce in that department. I also think Bruce's voice has more consistency. There was one period where he wasn't performing well live, but aside from that he's had very few bad nights that I've heard and his voice has aged very gracefully. JLB is a lot more hit and miss in this respect and while I'll give him leeway because of the food poisoning incident, it's still a factor. I also think Bruce hits his high notes with much more grace, accuracy, and strength than JLB. This is including JLB's performances on I&W and Awake. All these things keep JLB a step below Dickinson IMHO. But this is all taste, I can totally understand how someone would hear these things differently. Besides, saying he's a step below Dickinson really isn't all that bad considering how top tier Dickinson is.
To be fair though, I think people give Dickinson a little too much credit. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but I've heard plenty of live maiden footage where I'm anticipating some of the higher parts on songs like Hallowed Be Thy Name, and he either just sustains the previous note and basically yells the entire passage in one tone, or he throws the note away all together and just screams it out theatrically. And I don't even just mean lately. I'm talking about his performance on Live After Death, even.
And you know what? For Iron Maiden's style, it works perfectly well. And they're difficult passages, so if his voice isn't in top form, I can't blame him for throwing away some of the notes. All I'm saying is that he's not as perfect or consistent as all that.
As far as emotion and feeling goes, yeah, maybe you're right. JLB is definitely the kind of vocalist that will prioritize technique, and really try to make sure that he's hitting the proper note, rather than putting all his emotion into that note necessarily, but that's just a difference in style. I could give him just as much credit for trying to make sure that he IS hitting all the right notes. It's pretty much what I meant when I said that his style and Dickinson's style are different, and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Quote from: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
It also helped seeing Iron Maiden and DT live in 2010. There was a very huge difference in quality between the singers at the show I saw.

The only real difference in quality that I saw during that tour was, like I said, in stage presence and energy. In fact, during the show I went to, JLB nailed every part. Hearing that, "Watch the sparrow falling" part of pull me under, blew me away. Whereas Dickinson ended up throwing away some of the higher parts in songs like Hallowed Be Thy Name. And again, as I mentioned above, that's neither here nor there. They have different styles and prioritize different things. All I'm saying is that both have their strengths and weaknesses, and if you ask me, neither one is significantly superior over the other, it's really just a matter of taste.

Somehow it always comes down to Bruce Dickinson for some reason. Honestly, I think in terms of voice, a much more fair comparison would be Robert Plant. If you ask me, he didn't have the most soulful, or accessible voice in rock music either. Personally, I always thought he sounded quite thin. What he did have was range and technique. So in that respect, I think he and LaBrie are very similar. In fact, I knew quite a few people who actually did hear LaBrie for the first time and said, "I like it. He kinda reminds me of Robert Plant."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on August 04, 2014, 03:29:46 AM
I think JLB is great. I've always felt that he gets way too much criticism, and for some reason it feels like people expect too much from him. DT is basically THE band where every member has become known as one of the best within their different field. Petrucci - one of the best guitarists, Portnoy - one of the best drummers, Rudess - keyboards and so on. With JLB, it's like if people expect him to excel as much in singing as the others do in their various fields. I think JLB is a great singer, who sadly took a hit after the food poisoning, and while his live performances have been hit/miss live, they have been mostly good on the albums at least. It's hard for me to be critical, because to me, flaws in vocals is a very human thing, and it can give the vocals more feel to them. Not delivering them 100% right or sometimes having those "misses" gives the words more humanity and feel to them, and I don't know, it's just hard for me to hate. I'm not saying a bad singer is better than a fantastic singer, but I think JLB is good enough. I just think people expect too much because it's Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on August 04, 2014, 04:11:59 AM
With regards to Another Day and its "style" - my first real exposure to Dream Theater (outside of being yet another of those weird bands my dad used to play on his radio show and in the car and at home...) came through a CD from an various artists collection series:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/even-more-power-ballads-mw0001235674

It still took a couple of years for me to really grab on to DT, ACOS and FII being the two CD's that were in such heavy rotation in my dads car that I simply was brainwashed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
More controversy:

I feel like DT´s instrumental songs are better than the "vocal" songs. They really should put out an instrumental record!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 04, 2014, 08:17:40 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
More controversy:

I feel like DT´s instrumental songs are better than the "vocal" songs. They really should put out an instrumental record!

To me, the LTE records are basically instrumental DT records, just with a different (and better and more creative) bass player. 

And most of the instrumentals on those two records are better than most of DT's instrumentals, IMCO. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 04, 2014, 08:36:27 AM
LTE feels considerably less melodic than DT to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 04, 2014, 08:39:12 AM
I totally disagree.  Nearly every LTE song has an awesome melody, to go along with the tremendous playing, the exceptions being stuff like 914 and ...Excellent Adventure, which are more or less rhythmic jams anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 09:12:43 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
More controversy:

I feel like DT´s instrumental songs are better than the "vocal" songs. They really should put out an instrumental record!

If you wanna listen to a DT instrumental album, they have an instrumental mix for ADTOE and BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 10:43:33 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 09:12:43 AM
Quote from: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
More controversy:

I feel like DT´s instrumental songs are better than the "vocal" songs. They really should put out an instrumental record!

If you wanna listen to a DT instrumental album, they have an instrumental mix for ADTOE and BC&SL.

They do?!! OMG! Where can I find it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 04, 2014, 11:03:49 AM
I love James's performance on I&W and especially Awake. Since then, he has had few standout performances; Another World, Intervals, and The Pursuit of Truth, among a few other examples, are truly exceptional, but beyond those, there is little that stands out. I had preferred vocalists such as Bruce Dickinson, Russell Allen, and Hansi Kunsch. My impressiion was cemented when I first saw DT in 2012; James sounded... a bit off, for lack of a better term.

This changed when I saw them again in April; James absolutely killed it that night, and easily surpassed many of his studio performances. Yes, even those of the Awake songs. In my mind, James is now up there among the likes of Bruce, Russell, and Hansi. If he sounds this great on the next album, it could easily be his best studio performance to date.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 12:33:38 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 12:18:51 AM
Well, all of this is a matter of taste. It's more than me enjoying the quality of his voice though. I think Bruce's voice has more character, I feel that he puts more feeling and emotion into his singing. Not that JLB doesn't have any of these qualities, but I think he's a few steps below Bruce in that department. I also think Bruce's voice has more consistency. There was one period where he wasn't performing well live, but aside from that he's had very few bad nights that I've heard and his voice has aged very gracefully. JLB is a lot more hit and miss in this respect and while I'll give him leeway because of the food poisoning incident, it's still a factor. I also think Bruce hits his high notes with much more grace, accuracy, and strength than JLB. This is including JLB's performances on I&W and Awake. All these things keep JLB a step below Dickinson IMHO. But this is all taste, I can totally understand how someone would hear these things differently. Besides, saying he's a step below Dickinson really isn't all that bad considering how top tier Dickinson is.
To be fair though, I think people give Dickinson a little too much credit. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but I've heard plenty of live maiden footage where I'm anticipating some of the higher parts on songs like Hallowed Be Thy Name, and he either just sustains the previous note and basically yells the entire passage in one tone, or he throws the note away all together and just screams it out theatrically. And I don't even just mean lately. I'm talking about his performance on Live After Death, even.
And you know what? For Iron Maiden's style, it works perfectly well. And they're difficult passages, so if his voice isn't in top form, I can't blame him for throwing away some of the notes. All I'm saying is that he's not as perfect or consistent as all that.
As far as emotion and feeling goes, yeah, maybe you're right. JLB is definitely the kind of vocalist that will prioritize technique, and really try to make sure that he's hitting the proper note, rather than putting all his emotion into that note necessarily, but that's just a difference in style. I could give him just as much credit for trying to make sure that he IS hitting all the right notes. It's pretty much what I meant when I said that his style and Dickinson's style are different, and both have their strengths and weaknesses.
I think it depends on what you value more from a singer. Hitting the right notes is impressive and all, but if I don't hear any feeling in it, which is often the case with JLB, it's not going to do much for me. I want a vocal performance to be convincing, Bruce is great at doing that. Another singer who was like that was Freddie Mercury. And that's not to say Bruce doesn't hit his notes, because he does. I'll admit that LAD is a lackluster performance at times (though he warms up toward the end), but check out his performances on Beast Over Hammersmith and Rock in Rio. Not only is he more consistent hitting notes, but he hits them with so much grace and character. It's what I want from a singer.


Quote
The only real difference in quality that I saw during that tour was, like I said, in stage presence and energy. In fact, during the show I went to, JLB nailed every part. Hearing that, "Watch the sparrow falling" part of pull me under, blew me away. Whereas Dickinson ended up throwing away some of the higher parts in songs like Hallowed Be Thy Name. And again, as I mentioned above, that's neither here nor there. They have different styles and prioritize different things. All I'm saying is that both have their strengths and weaknesses, and if you ask me, neither one is significantly superior over the other, it's really just a matter of taste.
Which show did you see? I saw them in Denver which was I think the third or fourth show in the tour. I have to say I really wasn't impressed with JLB's performance that night, he was flat and slurred a lot of the higher parts. Bruce on the other hand was really on that night, both in stage presence and vocal performance.

Quote
Somehow it always comes down to Bruce Dickinson for some reason. Honestly, I think in terms of voice, a much more fair comparison would be Robert Plant. If you ask me, he didn't have the most soulful, or accessible voice in rock music either. Personally, I always thought he sounded quite thin. What he did have was range and technique. So in that respect, I think he and LaBrie are very similar. In fact, I knew quite a few people who actually did hear LaBrie for the first time and said, "I like it. He kinda reminds me of Robert Plant."
I agree, I don't hear any resemblance to Plant in tone but there are lots of other similarities. Plant had his fair share of criticism too. The Dickinson comparison comes from the two using operatic styles, but honestly I think JLB is at his best when he isn't using those styles. So the Plant comparison makes more sense. I much prefer JLB to Plant by the way.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 01:16:13 PM
I think it depends on what you value more from a singer. Hitting the right notes is impressive and all, but if I don't hear any feeling in it, which is often the case with JLB, it's not going to do much for me. I want a vocal performance to be convincing, Bruce is great at doing that. Another singer who was like that was Freddie Mercury. And that's not to say Bruce doesn't hit his notes, because he does. I'll admit that LAD is a lackluster performance at times (though he warms up toward the end), but check out his performances on Beast Over Hammersmith and Rock in Rio. Not only is he more consistent hitting notes, but he hits them with so much grace and character. It's what I want from a singer.
Oh yeah, Rock In Rio was absolutely stellar. And you're right, it does depend on what you prefer from a singer, but you also have to look at the different styles for what they are. Yes, Iron Maiden has some very progressive and complex passages, and yes, they were a major influence on Dream Theater, but still, in essence, they're two very different bands. Iron Maiden comes from an era, and caters to an audience of headbangers, so in their case, the priority IS to put more feeling and more attitude into the performances, and to just give the audience a really awesome rock show.
And while DT has its awesome rockers, being as progressive as it is, it's really a lot more akin to classical music in that people (generally) want to hear precision and see that skill from the members. In the case of most of the musicians, it's the dexterity of everything they do. In the case of JLB, it's his amazing range. Even during his worst period, his range was pretty damn impressive.
I'm fairly confident that if JLB was born into an earlier era, when prog rock and early Metal was revered and recognized by masses, he'd be considered one of its legends, right along with Dickinson, Dio and Plant.

Quote
Which show did you see? I saw them in Denver which was I think the third or fourth show in the tour. I have to say I really wasn't impressed with JLB's performance that night, he was flat and slurred a lot of the higher parts. Bruce on the other hand was really on that night, both in stage presence and vocal performance.
I saw the one in Toronto. And even afterwards, I was thinking, "Was JLB really that amazing, or was I just blinded by fanboy goggles?" But I looked up some of the footage, and yeah, his performance was absolutely dead on.

Quote
I agree, I don't hear any resemblance to Plant in tone but there are lots of other similarities. Plant had his fair share of criticism too. The Dickinson comparison comes from the two using operatic styles, but honestly I think JLB is at his best when he isn't using those styles. So the Plant comparison makes more sense. I much prefer JLB to Plant by the way.  ;D

Well, I'm glad. Because as a singer, I think Plant is a bit overrated. Again, I can appreciate his range and skill, but I don't think he's all that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 04, 2014, 01:44:29 PM
I think I have to agree with TheGreatPretender on the JLB vs. Bruce thing. I absolutely love Bruce Dickinson, I'm sure you all know that (especially Mosh—I first met him on an Iron Maiden forum). He's a truly spectacular singer with an unbelievable voice, he's an absolutely brilliant performer, and he's very convincing and emotive (both in studio and on stage). He's definitely the better live singer out of the two, because even on his bad nights he's able to save face pretty well while James sometimes has just not sounded very good (not at present though!).

But I disagree with the proposition that James is not emotive. A lot of DT's most emotional songs have been punctuated by JLB's presence adding to the feeling. Scarred, for example? Or The Spirit Carries On? He shines on these songs by bringing the right emotional touch to them. Plus it helps that he's absolutely one of the most diverse singers I've ever heard (I mean, there's Åkerfeldt, but James has more diversity than Mikael when you look just at singing and not growling). James is capable of fitting in well on a very heavy metal song, like This Dying Soul, while also sounding just amazing on a ballad like Wither. Actually, just the song Octavarium on its own shows what I would call very impressive diversity on James's part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 04, 2014, 02:11:35 PM
As one of the people that has used Dickinson as the standard (I think I've said that Bruce is the standard by which I measure all metal front men) I should clarify that I don't necessarily limit that comparison to JUST singing.   It's the whole package for me.   Though I think the last comment by 425 is very relevant:  James has been asked to sing (and has successfully sang) the works of Bruce, Plant, Mercury, Gillan, Dio, Jackson, Ozzy, Hetfield, Waters, Gilmour, Hewson...

I am willing to admit that JLB has his moments live, his stage patter and mannerisms are clichéd to the point of comedy for me, and I REALLY don't like the way he handled the past four years from a band politics standpoint, but as a singer, I think it's hard to knock him with any credibility. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 04, 2014, 02:11:35 PM
...and I REALLY don't like the way he handled the past four years from a band politics standpoint 

???  I have no idea what this means.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 04, 2014, 03:34:15 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 04, 2014, 02:11:35 PM
...and I REALLY don't like the way he handled the past four years from a band politics standpoint 

???  I have no idea what this means.

Agreed.

Stadler, you're gonna need to unpack that one a bit, cause that makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol

Yeah, Myles Kennedy is a very overrated singer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:35:59 PM
I give him his due for talent, but his voice and singing style just grate on me.  Can't stand his singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on August 04, 2014, 03:39:06 PM
Quote from: tiagodon on August 04, 2014, 08:12:06 AM
More controversy:

I feel like DT´s instrumental songs are better than the "vocal" songs. They really should put out an instrumental record!

Quite opposite. I barely listen DT's instrumentals. Actually, James is the primary reason to listen them for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:39:59 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:35:59 PM
I give him his due for talent, but his voice and singing style just grate on me.  Can't stand his singing.

Oh sure, he's talented, but to front DT? No way. Also, I got my fill of Alter Bridge when one of my college classmates played the first album like 10 times in a row. I did try the third album years later because someone insisted its brilliance, but they just don't do anything for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zantera on August 04, 2014, 03:49:45 PM
I'd be curious to hear a Dream Theater song with Daniel Gildenlöw on vocals. He has the range, and he has sung a lot within that musical style before. Not saying he would be better than JLB or anything, but it would be interesting to hear IMO. I know even he has some haters though, but it's hard to overlook the talent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on August 04, 2014, 06:50:22 PM
I've got one. TMOLS is the best song on SC, and is top 25 DT material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 04, 2014, 07:14:37 PM
I'm too lazy to work out a top list, but it is probably indeed the best SC song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol

Yeah, Myles Kennedy is a very overrated singer.

Is not :) you don't have to agree with bosk all the time you know. Hahahaha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on August 04, 2014, 07:27:36 PM
Quote from: Grizz on August 04, 2014, 07:14:37 PM
I'm too lazy to work out a top list, but it is probably indeed the best SC song.

I used to have a list in a word document, but I can't find it, and it was just random placement of favorites. There was no system at all. I honestly don't know where I would put it, but it would be somewhere in the top 25 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 04, 2014, 07:52:39 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol

Yeah, Myles Kennedy is a very overrated singer.

Is not :) you don't have to agree with bosk all the time you know. Hahahaha

Bosk and I hate each other, and I certainly don't agree with everything he says.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 04, 2014, 07:58:18 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol

Yeah, Myles Kennedy is a very overrated singer.

Myles Kennedy is an amazing singer with an awesome range and multiple styles. I would argue more about why he's one of the best if I wasn't completely disregarding your statement because this is controversial opinions. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 04, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
Myles is a pretty good singer. Even if he didn't guest on an album (and he probably wouldn't, DT don't usually have guests except in the case of instruments they themselves don't play), it would be cool if he sang a few DT songs live with them. He and James are pretty good friends, so it's not outside the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 04, 2014, 08:57:32 PM
I love Myles, but I don't want to hear him singing DT.

And yeah, Stadler, I don't get that either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 10:20:46 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
Oh yeah, Rock In Rio was absolutely stellar. And you're right, it does depend on what you prefer from a singer, but you also have to look at the different styles for what they are. Yes, Iron Maiden has some very progressive and complex passages, and yes, they were a major influence on Dream Theater, but still, in essence, they're two very different bands. Iron Maiden comes from an era, and caters to an audience of headbangers, so in their case, the priority IS to put more feeling and more attitude into the performances, and to just give the audience a really awesome rock show.
And while DT has its awesome rockers, being as progressive as it is, it's really a lot more akin to classical music in that people (generally) want to hear precision and see that skill from the members. In the case of most of the musicians, it's the dexterity of everything they do. In the case of JLB, it's his amazing range. Even during his worst period, his range was pretty damn impressive.
Agreed. Honestly I don't get much out of seeing perfection at concerts as opposed to the human element. This goes for any genre, not just Metal. It's impressive yes, but I want to hear some personality in the performance too. This is something I think Portnoy really struck a balance on in 2010, his performance was technically very impressive but also had lots of personality and character. And I'll use this moment to address 425's point here:
Quote from: 425 on August 04, 2014, 01:44:29 PM
But I disagree with the proposition that James is not emotive. A lot of DT's most emotional songs have been punctuated by JLB's presence adding to the feeling. Scarred, for example? Or The Spirit Carries On? He shines on these songs by bringing the right emotional touch to them. Plus it helps that he's absolutely one of the most diverse singers I've ever heard (I mean, there's Åkerfeldt, but James has more diversity than Mikael when you look just at singing and not growling). James is capable of fitting in well on a very heavy metal song, like This Dying Soul, while also sounding just amazing on a ballad like Wither. Actually, just the song Octavarium on its own shows what I would call very impressive diversity on James's part.
Didn't mean to say that James isn't emotive at all. He is very emotive, but I think that comes out the most when he's singing softer and in a more limited range. See the middle section of Scarred, Spirit Carries On, The Bigger Picture, Disappeared, Illumination Theory. Octavarium is good too. It's when he goes into operatic mode that I find he gets less emotive. Songs like Outcry, parts of Take the Time, In the Name Of God. In a live setting I feel his performance on these songs is lacking. Not to say he doesn't have his moments, Octavarium (live and in studio) is stellar. I also don't have any qualms about his performance on DT12. Even live he pulls those songs off. I think he's better than ever right now.

However I can't say I agree that he fits in too well in a very metal setting. With the exception of Awake and some other songs here and there, I don't think his voice fits as well when DT starts to get really heavy.

Quote
I'm fairly confident that if JLB was born into an earlier era, when prog rock and early Metal was revered and recognized by masses, he'd be considered one of its legends, right along with Dickinson, Dio and Plant.
Not sure about that. DT had a spot in the limelight for some time and while maybe not necessarily considered legends, JP and (especially) MP have been quite recognized for their talents since then. So it's not like JLB's era is preventing him from certain praises. Of course this isn't any objective statement on quality, but just a general observation.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
I saw the one in Toronto. And even afterwards, I was thinking, "Was JLB really that amazing, or was I just blinded by fanboy goggles?" But I looked up some of the footage, and yeah, his performance was absolutely dead on.
I'll have to check that out later then. I also looked up some footage from Denver of both Maiden and DT and my thoughts still stand.

Quote
Well, I'm glad. Because as a singer, I think Plant is a bit overrated. Again, I can appreciate his range and skill, but I don't think he's all that.
Yea I think so too. I love Zeppelin but Plant was the weak link. His voice also deteriorated very quickly, you can hear him struggling live already on Song Remains the Same and even in studio on later albums.

Another good comparison would be Russell Allen, before he decided to become a one dimensional singer. I think it's more fair to compare those two, coming from a similar time period and style. Both have an operatic style, are diverse, and sing in progressive acts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 11:02:55 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 04, 2014, 10:20:46 PM
Not sure about that. DT had a spot in the limelight for some time and while maybe not necessarily considered legends, JP and (especially) MP have been quite recognized for their talents since then. So it's not like JLB's era is preventing him from certain praises. Of course this isn't any objective statement on quality, but just a general observation.
Yeah, but by the time DT made it big, that style of vocals was already pretty much out of fashion. Glam Metal was dead, and prog rock's hey day was LONG past. What I'm saying is that if there was a vocalist like JLB back in the 70s, early 80s, people would appreciate someone like that a lot more, because back then, people admired the higher register, more melodic vocals. Heck, DT hit it big when Thrash was already coming off its hey day and Grunge and Nu Metal were becoming mainstream, there couldn't have been a worse time for JLB's type vocals in the industry. Even Rob Halford, with his band Fight, employed a much grittier and lower register vocal style to better fit in with that generation.

Quote
Yea I think so too. I love Zeppelin but Plant was the weak link. His voice also deteriorated very quickly, you can hear him struggling live already on Song Remains the Same and even in studio on later albums.
And yet, classic rock fans praise Plant like he's god among men. That's why I think JLB's vocals would've been much more appreciated at an earlier era of music.

Quote
Another good comparison would be Russell Allen, before he decided to become a one dimensional singer. I think it's more fair to compare those two, coming from a similar time period and style. Both have an operatic style, are diverse, and sing in progressive acts.

Yeah, but Allen is a monster when it comes to doing aggressive vocals, so even if he can do the operatic stuff, he still does the aggressive stuff, and it's much easier for him to be appreciated by fans of harsher vocals, fans of bands like Pantera, Slayer and Disturbed.

And you know what, even then! I mean, yes, in the Metal community, those who HAVE heard Symphony X give Russel his props, but it's not like he'll ever be hailed as one of Rock's great 'Microphone Heroes'. And quite frankly, yes, just like JLB, I think he well deserves to be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 04, 2014, 11:04:55 PM
I realize it's just a quote malfunction, but it looks like you're just arguing with yourself. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 11:06:23 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 04, 2014, 11:04:55 PM
I realize it's just a quote malfunction, but it looks like you're just arguing with yourself. :lol

That does happen from time to time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 05, 2014, 06:42:51 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 04, 2014, 08:57:32 PM
I love Myles, but I don't want to hear him singing DT.

Agreed.  Myles is actually one of my favorite voices in rock at the moment, but I don't think DT would be a good fit for him at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 05, 2014, 06:55:32 AM
I'm not saying Myles singing for an entire record, but just picture it:

ON STAGE + DT + MYLES + AS I AM = EPICNESS!!!!!

As I Am could be one of those songs where he just fits perfectly!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 05, 2014, 07:00:19 AM
Quote from: Zook on August 04, 2014, 07:52:39 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 07:20:45 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 04, 2014, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: Knguro on August 04, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I could kill to see Dream Theater ft. Myles Kennedy on vocals, at least once in a life time! Does someone else?

Let's see...my favorite band of all time being fronted by one of my least favorite singers of all time?  No.  :lol

Yeah, Myles Kennedy is a very overrated singer.

Is not :) you don't have to agree with bosk all the time you know. Hahahaha

Bosk and I hate each other, and I certainly don't agree with everything he says.

Sarcasm usually is a bitch Zook hahaha... relax.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 07:35:36 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 04, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 04, 2014, 02:11:35 PM
...and I REALLY don't like the way he handled the past four years from a band politics standpoint 

???  I have no idea what this means.

Um, really don't want to say the wrong thing here and blow up the thread, but... I think he has taken more unnecessary shots at MP than anyone else in the band combined, and I think of all the members of the current DT, he is most happy with the way the breakup went down.  I specifically cite his comments re: the notion of a "front man" in DT, and the notion of Mike telling him what to sing.

I get that there were things said from the other side, too, so it's not cut and dry, but the bus drivers were MP and JP, and for JLB to mouth off, to me it's sort of like the weasely kid standing behind the bigger kid and going "na na na na NA na!!!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 05, 2014, 07:41:16 AM
I tend to look at it as him standing up to a bully, especially given that he was Portnoy's punching bag in DT for the longest time. 

And why is him being happy about how things went down a bad thing?  If someone I didn't always get along with was suddenly out of my life and I no longer had to deal with him/her, I'd be pretty happy about it, too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 07:44:50 AM
Oh, and Myles Kennedy is one of my favorite current vocalists, but the LAST band I would like to see him sing in front of is Dream Theater.  I'd rather him sing for The Cars than Dream Theater. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 05, 2014, 07:47:54 AM
I agree with Kev.  For us the fans to find out that Mike was unhappy with James singing is airing out the dirty laundry and James has all the right to be pissed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 05, 2014, 07:57:16 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 04, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
Myles is a pretty good singer. Even if he didn't guest on an album (and he probably wouldn't, DT don't usually have guests except in the case of instruments they themselves don't play), it would be cool if he sang a few DT songs live with them. He and James are pretty good friends, so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

I remember asking Jordan once, if a DT/Alter Bridge collab could be possible, his answer was this: I do like Alter Bridge and I'm open for everything. 

:biggrin: so yeah, it could be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 07:59:43 AM
Well, "bully" and "punching bag" are both a little melodramatic and terms to be used when predisposed to seeing the worst in the "bully" and the one doing the "punching".   But there are two sides to every story, and it isn't as if JLB was chained to the stage and manacled to the mike stand.

I don't fault JLB for being pissed, and I don't fault him for being happy now.  I just (14 months ago) got divorced and so am living the scenario you are suggesting.   And I was pissed for a while and am happy now.  But when asked about it, I simply say "it was the best thing for both of us.  Now we both are free to make the decisions we feel are best for us and those around us."    I don't passive-aggressively try to get back at someone that was mean to me, especially since I was free to go at any point in the 15 years we were married and even more especially when those around me are also taking the high road and looking forward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 05, 2014, 08:01:57 AM
While I agree your mindset is the best way to go not all relationships end that way and most and with a hated for one another, or at least animosity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 08:08:29 AM
I've never seen JLB as being passive/aggressive, and other than a general positive attitude about moving forward, I haven't seen him address it much at all unless asked.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 09:09:55 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 08:08:29 AM
I've never seen JLB as being passive/aggressive, and other than a general positive attitude about moving forward, I haven't seen him address it much at all unless asked.

Certainly not arguing with you, but I recall two events: an interview around the time the videos were released in connection with the drummer selection, and then there was a video interview from South America I think it was around the time of the release of ADTOE and both were in the vein of what I am talking about.  If I can find the links I'll put them up, but I wouldn't count on that.   And to be fair, at least for the second, I would give him a pass, because I also recall in that interview he had either just flown or was up all night or something like that, because I remember him talking (in a positive way) about the increased responsibilities on all the members now that they were essentially "one short" (because Mangini was new and focused on getting his gig right). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Knguro on August 05, 2014, 09:18:05 AM
Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 09:09:55 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 08:08:29 AM
I've never seen JLB as being passive/aggressive, and other than a general positive attitude about moving forward, I haven't seen him address it much at all unless asked.

Certainly not arguing with you, but I recall two events: an interview around the time the videos were released in connection with the drummer selection, and then there was a video interview from South America I think it was around the time of the release of ADTOE and both were in the vein of what I am talking about.  If I can find the links I'll put them up, but I wouldn't count on that.   And to be fair, at least for the second, I would give him a pass, because I also recall in that interview he had either just flown or was up all night or something like that, because I remember him talking (in a positive way) about the increased responsibilities on all the members now that they were essentially "one short" (because Mangini was new and focused on getting his gig right).

I would say they are short by 2, JM has been busy on god mode.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 05, 2014, 09:39:09 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 08:08:29 AM
I've never seen JLB as being passive/aggressive, and other than a general positive attitude about moving forward, I haven't seen him address it much at all unless asked.

This.  I do not recall James really saying anything that I would consider "taking shots" at Portnoy (although I may simply be misremembering). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 10:53:27 AM
And considering that he was the only member of the group who MP ever took shots at in the media even while he was still in the group, I think that JLB has been pretty remarkable in taking the high road.  A lesser man may have really unloaded on MP for some of that stuff, but that hasn't really happened.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 04, 2014, 11:02:55 PM
And yet, classic rock fans praise Plant like he's god among men. That's why I think JLB's vocals would've been much more appreciated at an earlier era of music.
It's more than just his voice though. His charisma as a frontman as well as just his sly vocal style really gave him all that recognition. There wasn't really anyone like that before Plant. JLB's vocals may have gotten more recognition in that time but I don't think he would've been elevated to Robert Plant status. I think it'd be more likely for him to be in the realm of Jon Anderson. A more appropriate comparison in general, if we're talking classic rock singers.

Quote
Yeah, but Allen is a monster when it comes to doing aggressive vocals, so even if he can do the operatic stuff, he still does the aggressive stuff, and it's much easier for him to be appreciated by fans of harsher vocals, fans of bands like Pantera, Slayer and Disturbed.

And you know what, even then! I mean, yes, in the Metal community, those who HAVE heard Symphony X give Russel his props, but it's not like he'll ever be hailed as one of Rock's great 'Microphone Heroes'. And quite frankly, yes, just like JLB, I think he well deserves to be.
Oh yea I agree, I like his aggressive vocals a lot, just wish he'd mix it up more these days like he did on Odyssey. But yea, Russel is one of my all time favorite vocalists for sure, so I definitely agree there. If there's ever a more modern singer who deserves to be up there with the likes of Dickinson and Halford, I think it's Allen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 02:21:07 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 05, 2014, 10:53:27 AM
And considering that he was the only member of the group who MP ever took shots at in the media even while he was still in the group, I think that JLB has been pretty remarkable in taking the high road.  A lesser man may have really unloaded on MP for some of that stuff, but that hasn't really happened.

That's a fair point that I had not considered.   Maybe you guys are right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 02:30:17 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
It's more than just his voice though. His charisma as a frontman as well as just his sly vocal style really gave him all that recognition. There wasn't really anyone like that before Plant. JLB's vocals may have gotten more recognition in that time but I don't think he would've been elevated to Robert Plant status.

Probably not the place for it, but I really don't think Plant gets his due, and I don't know if that is because Zeppelin is so ubiquitous, or because his solo stuff wasn't as iconic, or because there just isn't type of concert like the ones Zeppelin used to put on. 

But I went through a pretty big Zeppelin kick a couple months ago and broke out the DVD and TSRTS, and man, Plant was a rock GOD.  I also saw a couple shows on the Page/Plant tour, and there was a moment during... I think it was "Calling To You", where they broke the song down and did some interpolations (like they used to do in Dazed and Confused).  And at one point he was sort of mumbling/scatting Break On Through by the Doors, and it was pretty cool, lights were low, it was really... vibey, if that's a word, then he moved into "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, and when it got to the "chorus", the lights flashed on and he belted out "Stop! Hey! What's that sound everybody look what's goin' down!" and it literally took my breath away.  (Of course the band did it again later during "The Song Remains The Same", to this day the single greatest moment I've ever had at a rock concert and I've been to a few). 

Quote
Oh yea I agree, I like his aggressive vocals a lot, just wish he'd mix it up more these days like he did on Odyssey. But yea, Russel is one of my all time favorite vocalists for sure, so I definitely agree there. If there's ever a more modern singer who deserves to be up there with the likes of Dickinson and Halford, I think it's Allen.

Am I in the minority in that I don't really care for Russell Allen's singing?   More specifically, it isn't BAD, he certainly has range and control of his voice, but I don't know, what I've heard?   He's not Dickinson or Halford.  Or, in my book, LaBrie.  Caveat, I am not 100% conversant in the Symphony X catalogue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 05, 2014, 03:50:26 PM
All I know is that if I tried to sing like Russel Allen, my larynx would explode.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 05, 2014, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 02:30:17 PM
Am I in the minority in that I don't really care for Russell Allen's singing?   More specifically, it isn't BAD, he certainly has range and control of his voice, but I don't know, what I've heard?   He's not Dickinson or Halford.  Or, in my book, LaBrie.  Caveat, I am not 100% conversant in the Symphony X catalogue.

Just out of curiosity, what have you heard?  Obviously, if you just don't like his singing, you are entitled to that.  I can certainly understand if that is the case.  But if most of what you have heard is his more "harsh" vocals from the last two albums especially, or his Adrenaline Mob stuff, you haven't really heard much of what he is capable of. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Miss Bangkok on August 05, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
I'm guessing this is controversial, as it seems most fans don't like You Not Me, but I actually dig that song. Don't really see why it's such a "bad" song? It's got a killer guitar solo. Short and sweet, but groovy as fuck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 05, 2014, 04:29:07 PM
 
Quote from: Miss Bangkok on August 05, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
I'm guessing this is controversial, as it seems most fans don't like You Not Me, but I actually dig that song. Don't really see why it's such a "bad" song? It's got a killer guitar solo. Short and sweet, but groovy as fuck.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 02:30:17 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
It's more than just his voice though. His charisma as a frontman as well as just his sly vocal style really gave him all that recognition. There wasn't really anyone like that before Plant. JLB's vocals may have gotten more recognition in that time but I don't think he would've been elevated to Robert Plant status.

Probably not the place for it, but I really don't think Plant gets his due, and I don't know if that is because Zeppelin is so ubiquitous, or because his solo stuff wasn't as iconic, or because there just isn't type of concert like the ones Zeppelin used to put on. 

But I went through a pretty big Zeppelin kick a couple months ago and broke out the DVD and TSRTS, and man, Plant was a rock GOD.  I also saw a couple shows on the Page/Plant tour, and there was a moment during... I think it was "Calling To You", where they broke the song down and did some interpolations (like they used to do in Dazed and Confused).  And at one point he was sort of mumbling/scatting Break On Through by the Doors, and it was pretty cool, lights were low, it was really... vibey, if that's a word, then he moved into "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield, and when it got to the "chorus", the lights flashed on and he belted out "Stop! Hey! What's that sound everybody look what's goin' down!" and it literally took my breath away.  (Of course the band did it again later during "The Song Remains The Same", to this day the single greatest moment I've ever had at a rock concert and I've been to a few). 
I love Led Zeppelin. I went through a phase where I listened to nothing but Zeppelin for a good year. And I don't dislike Plant's voice, I just wouldn't hold him with the greats from his era. He was also the weak link in Zeppelin as far as I'm concerned. And he reached his peak quickly (Zeppelin IVish) and went downhill just as fast.

I will not, however, dispute his greatness as a frontman. He was perfect for that band.
 
Quote
Am I in the minority in that I don't really care for Russell Allen's singing?   More specifically, it isn't BAD, he certainly has range and control of his voice, but I don't know, what I've heard?   He's not Dickinson or Halford.  Or, in my book, LaBrie.  Caveat, I am not 100% conversant in the Symphony X catalogue.
What Bosk said; if you haven't heard his more diverse material from the 90s/early 00's you definitely want to check that out.


So I can at least have something on topic: I think Constant Motion is the best song on Systematic Chaos. I'll never understand the hate for it. It has prog, it has riffs, it has an AMAZING guitar solo from Petrucci. I even like the lyrics, some of MP's best IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Miss Bangkok on August 05, 2014, 09:16:26 PM
Fuck yes; the middle section has that awesome Latin-ish Di Meola sounding riff, then leads into that awesome solo...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 05, 2014, 10:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
  I think Constant Motion is the best song on Systematic Chaos. I'll never understand the hate for it. It has prog, it has riffs, it has an AMAZING guitar solo from Petrucci. I even like the lyrics, some of MP's best IMHO.

It also has FOREVER MORE INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING.  And some of the most generic vocal melodies in the band's history. 

It really is too bad that a good riff and great solo are wasted in what is otherwise a very mediocre and forgettable song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 10:47:19 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on August 05, 2014, 10:27:45 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
  I think Constant Motion is the best song on Systematic Chaos. I'll never understand the hate for it. It has prog, it has riffs, it has an AMAZING guitar solo from Petrucci. I even like the lyrics, some of MP's best IMHO.

It also has FOREVER MORE INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING.
Meh I like that part and the vocal melodies are fine to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 06, 2014, 03:21:52 AM
Yeah, Scurvydreams loves that part too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 06, 2014, 06:29:58 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on August 05, 2014, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 05, 2014, 02:30:17 PM
Am I in the minority in that I don't really care for Russell Allen's singing?   More specifically, it isn't BAD, he certainly has range and control of his voice, but I don't know, what I've heard?   He's not Dickinson or Halford.  Or, in my book, LaBrie.  Caveat, I am not 100% conversant in the Symphony X catalogue.

Just out of curiosity, what have you heard?  Obviously, if you just don't like his singing, you are entitled to that.  I can certainly understand if that is the case.  But if most of what you have heard is his more "harsh" vocals from the last two albums especially, or his Adrenaline Mob stuff, you haven't really heard much of what he is capable of.

I  heard one complete album, and all the AMob stuff.  The Symphony X album I heard wasn't the same as AMob, but it wasn't THAT far removed either.   Again, not saying he sucks or he isn't technically capable, I just didn't think it broke any new ground.   You know how when you hear Halford or Dickinson or Gillan, NO ONE sounds like them?  That's what I mean (and to me, LaBrie is the same way). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 06, 2014, 07:20:37 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
What Bosk said; if you haven't heard his more diverse material from the 90s/early 00's you definitely want to check that out.

I also recommend Paradise Lost; the harsher vocals are not as one sided as on Iconoclast, and the title track is one of Russell's finest clean performances.

Quote
So I can at least have something on topic: I think Constant Motion is the best song on Systematic Chaos. I'll never understand the hate for it. It has prog, it has riffs, it has an AMAZING guitar solo from Petrucci. I even like the lyrics, some of MP's best IMHO.

Even MP's harsh vocals are great. Unlike in, let's say, ANTR, they fit very well. The only instances of them that I prefer are in TGP and TCoT chorus.

I rank CM in the middle of SC; it has some great sections, with few weak ones. If the fast part of Jordan's solo was better, it may even breach my top 50.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 06, 2014, 08:08:59 AM
I'm not crazy about Russell Allen either.  I mean, I recognize that he is a gifted singer, but I don't really care for the bands he has been associated with or the music he has made, so by default I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on August 06, 2014, 08:17:30 AM
Russell is one of my favorites. His performance on The Divine Wings of Tragedy is magnificent. I don't like him so much on two newest albums but he's great on song Paradise Lost and When All is Lost.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 06, 2014, 11:08:38 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 06, 2014, 08:08:59 AM
I'm not crazy about Russell Allen either.  I mean, I recognize that he is a gifted singer, but I don't really care for the bands he has been associated with or the music he has made, so by default I'm not a fan.

That's it for me too. He is one of the strongest singers in the prog scene (with JLB quite a good amount behind), but the music he  chooses to sing in doesn't do anything for me. SymX, Amob, Amex, it's all a wash for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 06, 2014, 05:12:57 PM
Amex?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on August 06, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
Miss Bangkok, is that really you in the picture?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 08, 2014, 05:56:09 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
So I can at least have something on topic: I think Constant Motion is the best song on Systematic Chaos. I'll never understand the hate for it. It has prog, it has riffs, it has an AMAZING guitar solo from Petrucci. I even like the lyrics, some of MP's best IMHO.

Yeah, it's a top song. Anyone that doesn't like it is obviously completely insane..   :laugh:

And I'm just gonna leave this Russel Allen video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2dzytdn-s
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out. On a couple of occasions they managed to reach that level (Six Degrees, Vacant-SoC-ItNOG, Octavarium title track). That's no biggie at all though, I enjoy all their albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out.
That's not controversial at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 08, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
I don't understand why SFaM is called "Metropolis part 2" when the one is really NOT a sequel or follow-up to the other. I love them both, but the way I see it, they took bits and pieces of the music and lyrics from the original song and fleshed them out
into an album-length concept. Metropolis is not the beginning of the story, so to speak. It should be called "the introduction" NOT
"part 1."

And I STILL say that ACoS/Uncovered IS a full-Length album, NOT an E.P.!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 08, 2014, 02:34:37 PM
I don't think they intended on continuing Metropolis, they called it "Part I" as a joke.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:48:00 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 08, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
I don't understand why SFaM is called "Metropolis part 2" when the one is really NOT a sequel or follow-up to the other.
Because the band did a song called Metropolis, they called it Part 1, which left them open for a sequel.  So they called it Part 2.  Not sure what there is not to understand.

Quote from: chaossystem on August 08, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
And I STILL say that ACoS/Uncovered IS a full-Length album, NOT an E.P.!
Not sure why, but OK.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 08, 2014, 03:03:52 PM
I don't think I've said this before, but I think "Goodnight Kiss" lyrics are more corny than TMOLS or anything on BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 08, 2014, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 08, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
I don't understand why SFaM is called "Metropolis part 2" when the one is really NOT a sequel or follow-up to the other. I love them both, but the way I see it, they took bits and pieces of the music and lyrics from the original song and fleshed them out
into an album-length concept. Metropolis is not the beginning of the story, so to speak. It should be called "the introduction" NOT
"part 1."

And I STILL say that ACoS/Uncovered IS a full-Length album, NOT an E.P.!

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/avatars/Actors/Christopher_Lambert.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/ohshit_zpsd6cd53d6.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 08, 2014, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 08, 2014, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 08, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
I don't understand why SFaM is called "Metropolis part 2" when the one is really NOT a sequel or follow-up to the other. I love them both, but the way I see it, they took bits and pieces of the music and lyrics from the original song and fleshed them out
into an album-length concept. Metropolis is not the beginning of the story, so to speak. It should be called "the introduction" NOT
"part 1."

And I STILL say that ACoS/Uncovered IS a full-Length album, NOT an E.P.!

(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/avatars/Actors/Christopher_Lambert.jpg)
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_8873_1407536373.jpeg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2014, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out.
That's not controversial at all.

But it is wrong. :biggrin:

Here's my controversial opinion. DT only did one great album with KM, IaW. The other two are among their weakest albums.
Now, SFAM + SDOIT. There's an unbeatable duo of albums that they'll never come close to topping.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on August 08, 2014, 11:35:26 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2014, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out.
That's not controversial at all.

But it is wrong. :biggrin:

Here's my controversial opinion. DT only did one great album with KM, IaW. The other two are among their weakest albums.
Now, SFAM + SDOIT. There's an unbeatable duo of albums that they'll never come close to topping.

I agree with the SFAM + SDOIT notion, I feel like Octavarium and DT12 came close, but no pair like them has come since. If the next album is about as good as DT12 though, I will revise that thought. I have faith that's it's possible with this band. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 09, 2014, 03:58:04 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2014, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out.
That's not controversial at all.

But it is wrong. :biggrin:
Wasn't commenting on right or wrong.

But you're wrong, he's right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 09, 2014, 04:20:16 AM
Even though Awake is fourth place in my book, it's light years above albums like BCSL or WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 09, 2014, 04:59:46 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 09, 2014, 03:58:04 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2014, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 08, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on August 08, 2014, 01:55:07 PM
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel Images & Words + Awake are head and shoulders above anything else DT has put out.
That's not controversial at all.

But it is wrong. :biggrin:
Wasn't commenting on right or wrong.

But you're wrong, he's right.

Oh yeah? Well you're wrong about me being wrong about him being wrong! So there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 09, 2014, 05:25:24 AM
(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111116692/3220513-7878984826-WRONG.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 09, 2014, 08:20:06 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 08, 2014, 11:30:54 PM


Here's my controversial opinion. DT only did one great album with KM, IaW. The other two are among their weakest albums.
 

(https://25.media.tumblr.com/ad15192d030889ddf61b6702caf1019c/tumblr_mth2fvX0ao1sqwvkgo4_250.gif)

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 09, 2014, 11:54:32 AM
I have the feeling this might be a bit unpopular but after recently revisiting SDOIT, I've come to the conclusion that JP's solo in Misunderstood is one of his best ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tom Bombadil on August 09, 2014, 11:58:08 AM
Quote from: abydos on August 09, 2014, 11:54:32 AM
I have the feeling this might be a bit unpopular but after recently revisiting SDOIT, I've come to the conclusion that JP's solo in Misunderstood is one of his best ever.
I don't know about best ever, but it's very good and extremely under-appreciated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 09, 2014, 11:58:14 AM
I personally wouldn't find it controversial to name just about any of his solos as one of his best ever. JP's consistency of solos is pretty damn impressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 09, 2014, 12:08:08 PM
I guess so, but I really haven't been struck by any of his solos since ToT. And that includes the ending of Octavarium, I know people go crazy over it but to me it's pretty meh. Guess that's the more controversial statement out of the two :)
Maybe I haven't just paid enough attention to his solos since I haven't been much of a fan of the songs in general and haven't listened to them very much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 09, 2014, 12:11:31 PM
That is!  I love him mixing the passion in his solos with the shredding like Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on August 09, 2014, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 09, 2014, 12:11:31 PM
That is!  I love him mixing the passion in his solos with the shredding like Octavarium.

Ditto. I feel that those are among his best solos imo. LTL, The Razor's Edge, a lot of the solos in IT (that's right, I said it), and as well as on SFAM are so damn memorable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on August 09, 2014, 01:01:46 PM
Some solos where Petrucci doesn't shred are among his best, I agree, like Lines in the Sand. But he has a few of pretty great shred solos, like In the Name of God or The Enemy Inside (though I'm not sure if that qualifies as shred), and some of his slower solos aren't, at least to me, not emotion-filled, but just plainly... well, boring is exaggerated, but certainly not very good or interesting - Razor's Edge being the prime example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 02:22:11 PM
WDADU is a great album, and comes close to matching much of DT's later material. I remember liking it when I last listened to it, but not this much. Charlie is not as great a vocalist as James, but he still holds his own. The guitars, particularly one of the solos in Ytse Jam, remind me of Yngwie in a good way. I do not yet know where I would rank it among their albums, but it has certainly surpassed BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 09, 2014, 02:55:19 PM
The only thing I don't care for in an otherwise great song is the little solo section in Lifting Shadows Off A Dream. I love the rest of the song immensly, but that little part is boring and uninteresting. So there's at least one JP solo I don't like.

I guess it's not even really that much a solo but still.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 03:04:45 PM
I do not care for the lead guitar part from ~5:45-6:23 of Sacrificed Sons. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other examples. I DO like the lead in LSOAD; it acts as a great transition into the "He pours his soul..." bit, which is my favorite part of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on August 09, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
LSOAD is top 5 song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 09, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
Quote from: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 03:04:45 PM
I do not care for the lead guitar part from ~5:45-6:23 of Sacrificed Sons. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other examples. I DO like the lead in LSOAD; it acts as a great transition into the "He pours his soul..." bit, which is my favorite part of the song.

Do you have any idea why the solo is like that?  I believe is has something to do with the lyrical content.   I think the solo is a story within the story.  John is telling the story through his solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 09, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
Do you have any idea why the solo is like that?  I believe is has something to do with the lyrical content.   I think the solo is a story within the story.  John is telling the story through his solo.

Are you talking about SS or LSOAD? If the former, yes, it's dissonant nature fits the heavy subject matter, but I do not care for the execution. Its low position in the mix certianly does not help.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 09, 2014, 03:55:40 PM
SS and that I understand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 09, 2014, 04:08:46 PM
I never cared for SS. I think I have not listened to it in three or four years. Maybe it's time to break the silence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 07:16:21 PM
Now that I am more familiar with the debut, I would like to post my album rankings

Awake
SDoIT
ToT
SFaM
I&W
WD&DU
SC
DT12
Octavarium
FII
ADToE
BC&SL

If YNM was removed from FII to make room for the LaB version of Hollow Years, then the ablum would be ranked between WDaDU and SC. WD&DU also shot up the ranks really quickly. I listened to it 3 or 4 times today; prior to this, I had not given the album a spin in months. I really like it now. It sounds completely different from their later stuff while providing hints of what was to come.

Quote from: wasteland on August 09, 2014, 04:08:46 PM
I never cared for SS. I think I have not listened to it in three or four years. Maybe it's time to break the silence.

You should; despite a few weak points, SS is great. The instrumental break in particular kicks ass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 09, 2014, 09:08:27 PM
Quote from: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 09, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
Do you have any idea why the solo is like that?  I believe is has something to do with the lyrical content.   I think the solo is a story within the story.  John is telling the story through his solo.

Are you talking about SS or LSOAD? If the former, yes, it's dissonant nature fits the heavy subject matter, but I do not care for the execution. Its low position in the mix certianly does not help.
This. I like the idea a lot, but I think it was poorly executed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 10, 2014, 06:21:55 AM
JLB's greatest performance of all time is from the bonus tracks of Live Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 08:33:27 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 10, 2014, 06:21:55 AM
JLB's greatest performance of all time is from the bonus tracks of Live Scenes.

I thought this thread was supposed to be for actual opinions, not hypothetical ones. I don't believe you actually think that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 09, 2014, 09:08:27 PM
Quote from: Randaran on August 09, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 09, 2014, 03:15:58 PM
Do you have any idea why the solo is like that?  I believe is has something to do with the lyrical content.   I think the solo is a story within the story.  John is telling the story through his solo.

Are you talking about SS or LSOAD? If the former, yes, it's dissonant nature fits the heavy subject matter, but I do not care for the execution. Its low position in the mix certianly does not help.
This. I like the idea a lot, but I think it was poorly executed.

I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 10, 2014, 08:45:02 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 08:39:48 AM
I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.

I do like similar parts in BTL and Misunderstood. Those are the first two that come to mind, but I am sure that there are others.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 08:50:59 AM
Well for me, I like contrast in solos.  Not the same style all the time and the solos that work with the context of the song.

Alex Lifeson is my favorite guitarist and he has wide broad stroke with his solos.  Killing it with the hard paced "Freewill" to the emotional "Ghost Of A Chance" to the iconic, storyline of "Limelight".  None the same styles.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 10, 2014, 11:05:23 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 08:50:59 AM
Well for me, I like contrast in solos.  Not the same style all the time and the solos that work with the context of the song.

Alex Lifeson is my favorite guitarist and he has wide broad stroke with his solos.  Killing it with the hard paced "Freewill" to the emotional "Ghost Of A Chance" to the iconic, storyline of "Limelight".  None the same styles.

The smoky solo on Ghost Of A Chance is  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 11:07:08 AM
Can you believe Tim that solo is from his demo in his studio and they couldn't reproduce it when recording the album so they used the demo solo?!  Unreal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 10, 2014, 11:09:25 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 11:07:08 AM
Can you believe Tim that solo is from his demo in his studio and they couldn't reproduce it when recording the album so they used the demo solo?!  Unreal.
Now that you mentioned it, I think I may have read that. Such a great song. One of my least favorite Rush albums though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 11:14:36 AM
Which brought the results on Counterparts which I love.

So, while others have a problem with the execution of that part of the solo, I do not.  When have you heard JP think out of the box like that?  Misunderstood is another great styling for a solo from him.  You have to keep it fresh as a guitarist, think outside the box.  It don't mean every solo but variety is the spice f life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 10, 2014, 11:18:32 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 11:14:36 AM
Which brought the results on Counterparts which I love.

So do I.

Any chance Ghost was left over from Presto? It sounds and feels like a Presto type tune.

I love Presto BTW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 11:26:15 AM
No, same producer from Presto.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 10, 2014, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 08:33:27 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 10, 2014, 06:21:55 AM
JLB's greatest performance of all time is from the bonus tracks of Live Scenes.
I thought this thread was supposed to be for actual opinions, not hypothetical ones. I don't believe you actually think that.
I wouldn't take anything XBOBX says too seriously... I have a feeling he's just trolling most of the time. :P

He lost the little credibility he had after this post:
Quote from: XB0BX on March 01, 2014, 09:57:35 PM
I don't like Rush. Too much musical wankery, not enough soul. I don't care if they can play a million notes a minute if they can't write a decent song. And using a 20 minute song with a million time signature changes can't replace emotion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 01:25:34 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 08:39:48 AM
I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.
I understand that. I like that it's jarring. My problem is less the solo and more the buildup to the solo. In my opinion, it should've been that little bass thing for 2 bars going straight into the guitar solo. JP's solo illustrates surprise and confusion brilliantly, but it loses effect coming after a noodly and pointless JR solo and a riff that has overstayed its welcome by the time JP kicks in.

If it would've gone straight into JP's solo, it would've been much more surprising and would've made more sense. The way they did it just makes the song seem bloated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 02:18:51 PM
I don't know who came up with the name "Twelve Step Suite," but I think it's kind of dumb, and I think it should be called what I had PREDICTED it would be called: "Stepping Into Sobriety!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 10, 2014, 03:24:29 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 02:18:51 PM
I don't know who came up with the name "Twelve Step Suite," but I think it's kind of dumb, and I think it should be called what I had PREDICTED it should be called: "Stepping Into Sobriety!"
How is it dumb?  It is a suite of songs identified with the Twelve Steps, so it makes perfect sense.  In fact, some fans were referring to it as the AA suite, and MP said he preferred the term Twelve Steps Suite.  So, the guy who wrote the lyrics is who came up with it. 

But yeah, let's go with your idea instead of his.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
You always have to pick apart everything I say-

I didn't sat it IS dumb, I said I think it's dumb.

It would make more sense if it was TWELVE songs, one for EACH of the twelve steps, instead of FIVE.

I thought this was a thread where we're allowed to express our CONTROVERSIAL opinions, not opinions that agree with EVERYONE ELSE'S!

So if anyone else wants to say that MY idea is dumb, GO FOR IT!

I really don't give a shit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 04:21:14 PM
People are allowed to disagree with you. No need to get bent out of shape about it.

And even though the 12SS is only 5 songs, it does have a segment for each of the twelve steps.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 10, 2014, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 01:25:34 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 08:39:48 AM
I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.
I understand that. I like that it's jarring. My problem is less the solo and more the buildup to the solo. In my opinion, it should've been that little bass thing for 2 bars going straight into the guitar solo. JP's solo illustrates surprise and confusion brilliantly, but it loses effect coming after a noodly and pointless JR solo and a riff that has overstayed its welcome by the time JP kicks in.

If it would've gone straight into JP's solo, it would've been much more surprising and would've made more sense. The way they did it just makes the song seem bloated.

I get you. I always though that part of the solo was meant to be the confusion for those in direct contact with the bombing.  there was so much panic and confusion I took the part of the solo as that.

Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
You always have to pick apart everything I say-

I didn't sat it IS dumb, I said think it's dumb.




Well, I think saying that something you think is dumb is calling it dumb.  I was never bothered myself calling it the 12 steps after learning why it was called that and the significance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 05:27:33 PM
"Shadow" and "King" both made some really good points, and I don't like having to come on here to express my anger, instead of having a rational discourse about our thoughts and opinions. But sometimes shit happens.

Anyway-"Oompa-Loompa-doompenty-doo! I've got another PUZZLE for you..."

I don't begin to understand why so many people are bitching and complaining about Mike Mangini not making the "big change" in the band's sound that they were expecting. Give the guy (and the band) a break! Maybe they're still working out the bugs of working together.

Do you REALLY want a drummer that can't play all of the old songs? Or who plays them in a way that you no longer recognize?

He's still fairly new, and he has some very big-and in my opinion very talented-shoes to fill.

He may very well still be thinking things like "am I really here?" "did this really happen?"

Also apart from being just the drummer that I think they needed, he seems like a really nice guy, who doesn't want to "rock the boat and make waves," or be too disruptive. Would you like it better if he was the kind of asshole that walked in with an "I'm-here-to-take-over" attitude?

Give it some time. Maybe soon-even as early as the next album-he'll come up with some things that will shock, surprise and delight us ALL!


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 10, 2014, 05:29:07 PM
A few ellipses and some emoticons, and chaossystem is Mike Portnoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
I don't think so.

What do mathematical and facial expressions have to do with my writing style?

And WHY would I write a post DEFENDING Mike M. and the band's choice of him as a drummer if I was Mike P.?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 10, 2014, 05:50:16 PM
Because MP is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 04:40:01 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 01:25:34 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 10, 2014, 08:39:48 AM
I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.
I understand that. I like that it's jarring. My problem is less the solo and more the buildup to the solo. In my opinion, it should've been that little bass thing for 2 bars going straight into the guitar solo. JP's solo illustrates surprise and confusion brilliantly, but it loses effect coming after a noodly and pointless JR solo and a riff that has overstayed its welcome by the time JP kicks in.

If it would've gone straight into JP's solo, it would've been much more surprising and would've made more sense. The way they did it just makes the song seem bloated.

I get you. I always though that part of the solo was meant to be the confusion for those in direct contact with the bombing.  there was so much panic and confusion I took the part of the solo as that.

Oh yea I agree, I just think that would've worked better if it was placed at the beginning of the instrumental, to really catch people off guard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 06:25:47 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 10, 2014, 05:50:16 PM
Because MP is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

So...

Mike P. is insane, and THAT'S why he would write a post like that?

That little INSULT is the best response you could come up with?

Okay...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 10, 2014, 06:34:26 PM
 :chill

I think you're letting hef get to you. You know how he greeted me 8 years ago? He asked me why I was talking to people (on a message board) without introducing myself first.

And if you've ever seen Portnoy's posts, you'd understand my comparison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 07:29:55 PM
L.-O.-L.!

Are you saying that he asked you that question on here, or on a board similar to this one?

Now I think I understand.

Thanks for the heads-up.

So where would I find these posts by Mike P.?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 10, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6436
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 08:04:24 PM
Oh wow. I remember him replying to a certain thread, but I didn't realize that he replied to some of the other threads. I'm not gonna touch on the topic of him singing Repentance, but him comparing his voice to Bruce Springsteen and Kurt Cobain is   :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 10, 2014, 08:15:41 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 07:29:55 PM
L.-O.-L.!

Are you saying that he asked you that question on here, or on a board similar to this one?

Now I think I understand.

Thanks for the heads-up.

So where would I find these posts by Mike P.?

It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 08:32:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 08:04:24 PM
Oh wow. I remember him replying to a certain thread, but I didn't realize that he replied to some of the other threads. I'm not gonna touch on the topic of him singing Repentance, but him comparing his voice to Bruce Springsteen and Kurt Cobain is   :rollin
idk, I think he made a great point in that thread. Kurt Cobain and Bruce Springsteen weren't/aren't technically gifted singers, but they have very emotional deliveries that get the jb done. MP was just pointing out that he has the same approach, he never said his vocals were better or even at their level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 08:37:36 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 08:32:56 PM
idk, I think he made a great point in that thread. Kurt Cobain and Bruce Springsteen weren't/aren't technically gifted singers, but they have very emotional deliveries that get the jb done. MP was just pointing out that he has the same approach, he never said his vocals were better or even at their level.

What he said was, "Does [insert singers names] have a good voice?" Implying that the answer would be 'no,' and while that's a matter of taste, I'd say he's quite wrong. At the very least about Springsteen and Cobain. They've both had very soulful quality to their singing, not to mention their voices were just generally easily palatable and pleasant, IMO.
MP might have TRIED for the same approach, but most of his vocals that I've heard, including TBOT demo, varied from dry and plain, to all out whiny. Even in terms of expression or soulfulness, he hasn't even come close to being at their level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 09:02:09 PM
Oh I agree that he doesn't come close to them either, but I don't think MP was trying to imply that. I love Roger Waters and Kurt Cobain's voices, but I wouldn't call them technically great singers by any means. To me, the guys he named are all singers who rely more on delivery and emotion than having a great range or tone. MP, whether you think he does a good job or not, is one of those singers.

Personally I think he does a good job sometimes though. I've never found his voice as grating as others seem to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:10:13 PM
It still came off to me like him trying to compare himself to them, just because they don't rely on technical ability.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 09:14:59 PM
Honestly, as far as that goes I think it's a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:29:33 PM
I'd say not by a long shot. I'm not even a fan of Nirvana, but hearing Cobain's vocals, you could hear so much pain and real emotion in his tone. Forget voice or technique, so far I haven't seen MP being able to bring that kind of genuine emotion into a studio setting, even when singing a final goodbye to his dying father.
The bottom line is this, people like Roger Waters, Bruce Springsteen, Kurt Cobain, in spite of not having amazing vocal technique, they had enough substance in their vocals to be well deserving of being lead vocalists in their bands. MP is far away from being a worthy lead vocalist for any band.
Heck, I'd rather listen to Dave Mustaine, and he sure as shit not a great singer. At least his singing has personality, which is more than I can say for MP's singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
Is emotion quantifiable?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 10, 2014, 09:36:51 PM
My point is that MP's approach is the same to all those singers. Maybe he's not at the same level as them (and even that's up for debate), but he's still trying to go for the same thing. It's a fair comparison in that, like the other singers mentioned, he goes for emotional/delivery over technique. Whether or not he successfully does this is a matter of opinion, and the same could be said for any other singer mentioned. Maybe you don't think MP is worthy of being a lead singer of a band, but someone else might. Not gonna lie, as a vocalist I definitely prefer him to Mustaine.

And I think he has plenty emotion in his TBOT demo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:44:32 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
Is emotion quantifiable?

I'd say it's about as quantifiable as being able to say, one puts a lot of emotion into their singing, and the other just doesn't. They can try, they can put a certain inflection into their voice, but when there's barely any semblance of emotion in the performance, it's very easy to tell the difference.

I mean, think about acting. Imagine an actor whose performance takes them into a dark emotional state, and allows them to put real pain and anguish into their performance. They can make you feel for them, can even make you cry.
Now think about some bad actors who can't conjure up any kind of emotion, for whatever reason, so their voice is whiny, they try to make faces, to make themselves seem "sad" and maybe even try to cry, which doesn't work and just looks awful. Is it easy to see which one is the genuine article and which one is just pretending. So in that respect, it's very easy to quantify emotion. And it's much the same with singing.

Now, I'm not saying that MP didn't feel any emotion, hell, he's singing about his dying father, I'm just saying that it didn't seem to me like he could conjure up those emotions in his performance. Whether it was because of his surroundings and the people who may have been there, or because he just couldn't bring it out of himself in song, maybe he was thinking about the lyrics too much, or something. The bottom line is, so far, I haven't heard a single instance where he's been able to put any kind of real soul into his performance. But hey, that's just my opinion. All I'm saying is MP's singing has never had any kind of emotional impact on me. Even in TBOT, JLB's performance sounded more genuine. When I heard MP's demo, I didn't even realize that he played it for his father, I just assumed it was a phoned in guide track for JLB, much like JP's Wither demo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:44:32 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
Is emotion quantifiable?

I'd say it's about as quantifiable as being able to say, one puts a lot of emotion into their singing, and the other just doesn't. They can try, they can put a certain inflection into their voice, but when there's barely any semblance of emotion in the performance, it's very easy to tell the difference.

I mean, think about acting. Imagine an actor whose performance takes them into a dark emotional state, and allows them to put real pain and anguish into their performance. They can make you feel for them, can even make you cry.
Now think about some bad actors who can't conjure up any kind of emotion, for whatever reason, so their voice is whiny, they try to make faces, to make themselves seem "sad" and maybe even try to cry, which doesn't work and just looks awful. Is it easy to see which one is the genuine article and which one is just pretending. So in that respect, it's very easy to quantify emotion. And it's much the same with singing.

Now, I'm not saying that MP didn't feel any emotion, hell, he's singing about his dying father, I'm just saying that it didn't seem to me like he could conjure up those emotions in his performance. Whether it was because of his surroundings and the people who may have been there, or because he just couldn't bring it out of himself in song, maybe he was thinking about the lyrics too much, or something. The bottom line is, so far, I haven't heard a single instance where he's been able to put any kind of real soul into his performance. But hey, that's just my opinion. All I'm saying is MP's singing has never had any kind of emotional impact on me. Even in TBOT, JLB's performance sounded more genuine. When I heard MP's demo, I didn't even realize that he played it for his father, I just assumed it was a phoned in guide track for JLB, much like JP's Wither demo.

This is basically what I'm getting at.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:51:48 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
This is basically what I'm getting at.

Well, going back to my metaphor, that's not to say that a bad actor isn't feeling any emotion during their performance either. But if they can't express it, then it's clearly a sign of a poor performance. Same with MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:57:25 PM
Yeah, but once again, who's to say they're not expressing emotion? Is there a universal metric for finding out? Could not some person find MP's vocals to be emotional?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on August 10, 2014, 10:00:29 PM
Sounds like we need to get the objective/subjective thing going again  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 10, 2014, 10:05:36 PM
Let's go back to acting. In Freddy vs Jason, at the end, Monica Keena says she isn't leaving til she sees Freddy die. She looks mad, sounds mad, but her overacting kills all believability. Maybe that's similar to the MP argument. If not, screw you, I'm going to bed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 10:23:55 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:57:25 PM
Yeah, but once again, who's to say they're not expressing emotion? Is there a universal metric for finding out? Could not some person find MP's vocals to be emotional?

Well, if you take out all such factors, then the only thing you could possibly judge singing based on is whether the person hits the right notes. Who cares about whether they convey emotion, energy, tone, range, or heck, even proper technique? As long as they're hitting right notes, that means they're automatically a good singer. Except, I can't think of anyone who'd actually agree with this statement. This calls back to the conversation I had a page or two back about JLB vs. Bruce Dickinson, and the argument was that JLB, for all his range and technique, doesn't convey as much passion as Dickinson. But hey, why don't we just say, "Could not some person find JLB's vocals to be as passionate and emotional as Dickinson's?"

But you know, I'm not gonna have that argument. If we go too far into it, then we'll say we can't judge anything. Maybe some people hear emotion. Maybe other people feel as much energy out of JLB's performance as they do from Dickinson. Maybe some people find that DT12's production is vastly superior to I&W. It's all opinions anyway, so maybe people shouldn't be allowed to critique anything, and every single musician is equal in every way, even at instruments that they can't play, because if it's an expression of their true feelings, then who are we to judge how good it is?

Or, it's just as easily possible that if people are hearing great emotion in MP's singing, it's because they're projecting some of their own emotion into the song, whether it's because of the subject matter or the underlying music, or whatever.

Of course, we can't quantify such things, but if the majority of people will tell me that MP conveys as much emotion as Kurt Cobain, then I'll officially consider myself insane.

And yea, Zook basically referenced exactly what I mean. Except there are other types of bad acting (or in this case, singing) in MP's case, it's not overacting, it's lack of acting. It's more like if she said it with a loud tone of voice, but no expression or substance to her words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 11, 2014, 12:42:37 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 10, 2014, 09:32:28 PM
Is emotion quantifiable?

No. This argument is silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on August 11, 2014, 12:57:17 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 10, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6436

Can't take MP Seriously if he puts Springsteen in the same league as Wayne Coyne.

The Boss can sing. Wayne can't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 11, 2014, 04:58:48 AM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
You always have to pick apart everything I say-
No I don't.

Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
I didn't sat it IS dumb, I said I think it's dumb.
What's the difference?

Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
It would make more sense if it was TWELVE songs, one for EACH of the twelve steps, instead of FIVE.
Each song is subdivided into steps.  There are a total of 12.  So no, it wouldn't make more sense.

Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
I thought this was a thread where we're allowed to express our CONTROVERSIAL opinions, not opinions that agree with EVERYONE ELSE'S!
Yes, but (and this observation has been made before) some of your opinions seem to be about things that it seems strange to have an opinion about in the first place.  So when you do things like that, you are going to draw attention to yourself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 11, 2014, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:10:13 PM
It still came off to me like him trying to compare himself to them, just because they don't rely on technical ability.

Yeah, I'm with Mosh on this one.  You are giving FAR too much credit to Cobain in my opinion.   What you call "emotion" I call nails on a chalkboard.   I like his "quiet voice" (as on much of Unplugged) but the chorus to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is virtually unlistenable to me because of the vocals.   "Screaming" doesn't equal "emotion".   

You CAN judge, for yourself, as to whether the performance connects or not.   It is still subjective, but it allows for a personal evaluation of a JLB and a BD.   By trying to make "emotion" a standard you are implying that all people react to emotiveness as a primary characteristic.    I think Dio, for example, is FAR more emotive than JLB, and yet I prefer to listen to JLB, because for me, I really enjoy that fluid, melodious style of singing (JLB, Elton John, Freddie Mercury, John Lennon on "Imagine") over the raw, supposedly "emotive" style of singing (Cobain, John Lennon on "Revolution")
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 11, 2014, 12:41:26 PM
Depends on the emotion.  Sometimes you just wanna scream.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 10, 2014, 08:15:41 PM




It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.

So why was the other forum shut down?

I don't think he's changed much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 11, 2014, 02:38:10 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 11, 2014, 10:21:11 AM
Yeah, I'm with Mosh on this one.  You are giving FAR too much credit to Cobain in my opinion.   What you call "emotion" I call nails on a chalkboard.   I like his "quiet voice" (as on much of Unplugged) but the chorus to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is virtually unlistenable to me because of the vocals.   "Screaming" doesn't equal "emotion".   


Because I was obviously referring to his screaming? It's actually that Unplugged show that I'm referring to, where I felt a lot of genuine pain behind Cobain's vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:40:29 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 10, 2014, 09:29:33 PM
I'd say not by a long shot. I'm not even a fan of Nirvana, but hearing Cobain's vocals, you could hear so much pain and real emotion in his tone. Forget voice or technique, so far I haven't seen MP being able to bring that kind of genuine emotion into a studio setting, even when singing a final goodbye to his dying father.
The bottom line is this, people like Roger Waters, Bruce Springsteen, Kurt Cobain, in spite of not having amazing vocal technique, they had enough substance in their vocals to be well deserving of being lead vocalists in their bands. MP is far away from being a worthy lead vocalist for any band.
Heck, I'd rather listen to Dave Mustaine, and he sure as shit not a great singer. At least his singing has personality, which is more than I can say for MP's singing.

While I would agree That there are times when Mike P.'s singing boarders on parody, there other times when I think he has sounded as good as or better than the other singers named here.
I never cared for Nirvana in general, or Curt Cobain in specific. Same pretty much goes for Springsteen.
Roger Waters is pretty much hit and miss with me. He sounded pretty good on "S.o.Y.C.D." and MOST of "Animals," but I wish David Gilmour had done more (lead) vocals on that album. I liked his vocal parts on "The Wall," But he kind of crapped out on "The Final Cut," In more ways than one. Gilmour should have had a LOT more input on THAT album! On the other hand, Waters not being there for the LAST two Floyd albums made them sound-for me at least-somehow incomplete.
I don't think I agree about Mike P. not being able to do lead vocals for a band. There always were, are and will be MUCH worse singers than him. He should try it and see what happens. But I would agree that most of his strengths are in other areas.
As for Dave Mustaine, while I agree that he doesn't have the greatest voice in the world, I like a lot of what Megadeth has put out, and I can't imagine anyone BUT him singing HIS songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 11, 2014, 02:46:21 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:17:22 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 10, 2014, 08:15:41 PM




It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.

So why was the other forum shut down?

I don't think he's changed much.


Legend has it there was a monster named Itchy that ruled the forum for centuries, keeping a watchful eye like Sauron. Well, one day the members of the forum got a little too opinionated and Itchy shut the forum down. No one saw Itchy after that, but it's believed he dwells in the darkest corners of the internet... YouTube comments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 10, 2014, 10:05:36 PM
Let's go back to acting. In Freddy vs Jason, at the end, Monica Keena says she isn't leaving til she sees Freddy die. She looks mad, sounds mad, but her overacting kills all believability. Maybe that's similar to the MP argument. If not, screw you, I'm going to bed.

Are you REALLY expecting quality acting-or quality ANYTHING -in a movie like that?
I'm imagining that the director's (only) instructions to the actors to be something like "Live bad and die bloody!"
As for a movie in which the two killers fight, I'm likening it to a "Godzilla vs..." movie, in which we're REALLY not expected to care about the other characters because hey...it's a MONSTER fight!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 11, 2014, 04:58:48 AM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 10, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
You always have to pick apart everything I say-
No I don't.

Name a time when you didn't.

Or agreed with anything I said.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 11, 2014, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:47:50 PM
Quote from: Zook on August 10, 2014, 10:05:36 PM
Let's go back to acting. In Freddy vs Jason, at the end, Monica Keena says she isn't leaving til she sees Freddy die. She looks mad, sounds mad, but her overacting kills all believability. Maybe that's similar to the MP argument. If not, screw you, I'm going to bed.

Are you REALLY expecting quality acting-or quality ANYTHING -in a movie like that?
I'm imagining the the director's (only) instructions to the actors to be something like "Live bad and die bloody!"
As for a movie in which the two killers fight, I'm likening it to a "Godzilla vs..." movie, in which we're REALLY not expected to care about the other characters because hey...it's a MONSTER fight!!!

For a movie stuck in develpoment hell for 10 years, yes, I was expecting so much more. Instead we got FrankenJason, Sir Grinsalot, a director who had no idea about the characters, CGI blood, I could go on. Wrong thread though. God I hate that movie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 03:09:04 PM
I keep hearing rumors about a sequel, but I guess that one has already been stuck in development hell for MORE that ten years.

I don't know...I think the whole thing is really getting bizarre, what with all of the sequals and remakes, and sequels to remakes...
it's getting harder and harder to tell which is which.

Speaking of which: there are/were supposed to be remakes of "Hellraiser" and "Highlander" BOTH of which I would be looking forward to, but...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 11, 2014, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 11, 2014, 02:40:29 PM
While I would agree That there are times when Mike P.'s singing boarders on parody, there other times when I think he has sounded as good as or better than the other singers named here.
I never cared for Nirvana in general, or Curt Cobain in specific. Same pretty much goes for Springsteen.
Roger Waters is pretty much hit and miss with me. He sounded pretty good on "S.o.Y.C.D." and MOST of "Animals," but I wish David Gilmour had done more (lead) vocals on that album. I liked his vocal parts on "The Wall," But he kind of crapped out on "The Final Cut," In more ways than one. Gilmour should have had a LOT more input on THAT album! On the other hand, Waters not being there for the LAST two albums made them sound-for me at least-somehow incomplete.
I don't think I agree about Mike P. not being able to do lead vocals for a band. There always were, are and will be MUCH worse singers than him. He should try it and see what happens. But I would agree that most of his strengths are in other areas.
As for Dave Mustaine, while I agree that he doesn't have the greatest voice in the world, I like a lot of what Megadeth has put out, and I can't imagine anyone BUT him singing HIS songs.

The thing is, the only singers I've heard that are worse, at least had something unique and interesting about their voices. I find that MP's singing voice in itself is fairly generic. I guess if a band really didn't care about their vocals and just wanted them to kind ot be 'there', he'd be okay. But I probably wouldn't listen to that band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:02:01 PM
Here's some more controversy for you: I think that anyone who buys the "Studio Albums" boxed set-unless they don't already have all or most of those discs-is wasting their money!

Now..I WILL admit that I'm NOT much of a collector, If I buy something like that, it would pretty much be for the ENTERTAINMENT value only, not as an investment that I expected to make money off of later.

But I would have done it differently. I would have compiled an odds and ends collection of things that either don't exist any where else and/or things we can only get from YtseJam. Such as:

-ALL of the unreleased tracks from FII

-At least SOME of the Majesty demos

-Audio (CD) versions of the "Covers" series such as "Dark Side" (Pink Floyd) "Beast" (Iron Maiden) "Puppets" (Metallica) and the "Uncovered 2003-2005" disc.

-BOTH of the studio versions of "To Live Forever" (Charlie version/James version)

Now, I realize That it might be too expensive and inconvenient to cram all of what I-and everybody else-would want into ONE big package, so maybe it could be spread out over two or three  "boxes" Also might want to include some Visual materiel, such as the "Rite of Passage" video, and The "Once in a LiveTime" concert, and/or some other, unreleased live footage.

Of course I know I'm going to hear at least a hundred different reasons why this couldn't be done, but I can dream, can't I?

Other than that, I just want to say that I think it's too SOON to be putting out the box set the way they did. They should have waited a few years like Led Zeppelin, or The Police with that "Message in a Box" thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 05:07:13 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:02:01 PM
Here's some more controversy for you: I think that anyone who buys the "Studio Albums" boxed set-unless they don't already have all or most of those discs-is wasting their money!

While I completely agree with your reasoning and your whole argument, it really depends on the reason why they buy the box set, doesn't it? I mean, I was considering buying it simply because my DT CDs are starting to show a little bit of wear and tear on them and I'd like to have a mint condition DT discography. I already have 2 copies of ADTOE and SC just so that I have some that are in immaculate condition, and have been considering picking up another copy of SFAM for the same reason. And maybe another copy of Awake, since I've seen it for $5. Point is, I might just buy the new box set to make sure I always have mint condition DT albums. But not anytime soon, because money's tight and there's PLENTY of other DT stuff I'd rather buy first.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 12, 2014, 05:12:04 PM
Unless they are lesser quality CD's from the 80's, (thank you record companies) I would never buy a box set unless 2 things.

1.  I never owned them on CD before.

2.  Bonus material.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:12:35 PM
Right!...

...I guess I forgot to ad "Or if all your old copies are worn out."

I guess it IS a good idea to make sure you have them in good condition, either before they become unavailable or the prices skyrocket.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
Glad you brought that up "king"

I probably wouldn't buy a "best of" or box set unless there were a few decent unreleased tracks either. Such as I learned the hard way with that "Greatest Hit" thing. I only bought it because of "To Live Forever," but some of the edits on there are just plain awful!
Especially on "Home" You can pretty much HEAR the TAPE being CUT! Probably with a dull, rusty BUTTER knife!

But Black Sabbath's "The Dio Years" had a couple of decent new songs on it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 05:27:09 PM
I thought DT's Greatest Hit CD had enough unique stuff on it to be well worth owning.
Particularly I'm grateful to have I Walk Beside You without the clock tick at the beginning of it, The Answer Lies Within without the forest sounds at the beginning, and of course, Sacrificed Sons without the terrorist jibber jabber at the beginning.

All the other stuff on there that's different is also cool, just listening to the SDOIT in slightly different edits is a welcome change, as well as the remixes of I&W songs.

Frankly, as far as Compilation albums go, I'd say DT did it right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 12, 2014, 05:28:43 PM
That's not (never) enough for me.  Not worth blowing all that money on those little nuances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:32:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 05:27:09 PM


All the other stuff on there that's different is also cool, just listening to the SDOIT in slightly different edits is a welcome change, as well as the remixes of I&W songs.



Another thing that was a big disappointment: I really DIDN'T notice ANY differences in the "Remixed" songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 12, 2014, 08:29:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 05:27:09 PM
I thought DT's Greatest Hit CD had enough unique stuff on it to be well worth owning.
Particularly I'm grateful to have I Walk Beside You without the clock tick at the beginning of it, The Answer Lies Within without the forest sounds at the beginning, and of course, Sacrificed Sons without the terrorist jibber jabber at the beginning.

All the other stuff on there that's different is also cool, just listening to the SDOIT in slightly different edits is a welcome change, as well as the remixes of I&W songs.

Frankly, as far as Compilation albums go, I'd say DT did it right.

I think it's interesting enough to see the different versions of the songs. Most of the edits I can deal with, except about two... Solitary Shell cuts out the solo and instrumental section, probably because it didn't work as well without the context of the rest of the suite or something, but way to ruin a song by cutting out some of the best bits. Same goes for Lie, it doesn't go into The Mirror reprise and therefore never gets around to the second guitar solo (the better one imo).

I can actually deal with the shorter version of Home, that song feels a bit bloated sometimes anyway but I do miss the intro riff playing out a bit longer. And Through Her Eyes with sax is fairly interesting.

Quote from: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:32:23 PM

Another thing that was a big disappointment: I really DIDN'T notice ANY differences in the "Remixed" songs.

Haha, it took me a long time to notice the changes in these "remixes" but that's because there aren't many. It's all in dynamics of the mix. Certain things stand out a bit more (some of the keyboard leads, most of the guitar tracks), certain things blend with the background a bit more than before (bass), a bit of compression to make the tracks 'louder'. Different trigger samples used on MPs snare and kick drum. I think that's all they did unless there's any features I've missed that someone else has noticed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 08:52:19 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 12, 2014, 08:29:59 PM
I think it's interesting enough to see the different versions of the songs. Most of the edits I can deal with, except about two... Solitary Shell cuts out the solo and instrumental section, probably because it didn't work as well without the context of the rest of the suite or something, but way to ruin a song by cutting out some of the best bits. Same goes for Lie, it doesn't go into The Mirror reprise and therefore never gets around to the second guitar solo (the better one imo).


Well, I agree with the Solitary Shell, that instrumental section was damn awesome, but it leads right into the next section, and sometimes it's nice to listen to a version of Solitary Shell that doesn't just cut off at the end.

As for Lie, I'll have to disagree. Personally, I never thought that ending Mirror reprise section added anything, and when listening to Lie on its own, I go with the Single version all the way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 12, 2014, 09:56:34 PM
I think the Mirror reprise before the solo is amazing, i almost never listen to the songs separately and it just fits so well with how the solo starts. Without it, I feel the flow is ruined.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on August 12, 2014, 10:10:16 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 12, 2014, 05:32:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 05:27:09 PM


All the other stuff on there that's different is also cool, just listening to the SDOIT in slightly different edits is a welcome change, as well as the remixes of I&W songs.



Another thing that was a big disappointment: I really DIDN'T notice ANY differences in the "Remixed" songs.


The triggered snare is no more, and the tracks are louder. That on the surface is not a big difference, and if going in thinking so would be a disappointment. There are very subtle things I guess.

The bigger disappointment for me is JM not playing the now noticeable bass harmonics in PMU live yet!  :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 12, 2014, 10:29:35 PM
Quote from: CableX 1814 on August 12, 2014, 10:10:16 PM
The triggered snare is no more, and the tracks are louder. That on the surface is not a big difference, and if going in thinking so would be a disappointment. There are very subtle things I guess.

The bigger disappointment for me is JM not playing the now noticeable bass harmonics in PMU live yet!  :-\

Yeah, when I originally saw that they were "2007" versions, I assumed the band re-recorded the whole songs in-studio from scratch. And the drum sound helped cement that theory, but then once I listened to the guitars, and particularly the vocals, I was like, "Wait, that's the same as I&W." I was disappointed at first, but now, I think it still sounds different enough to give a fresh experience every once in a while.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 13, 2014, 12:18:25 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the remixes of the I&W songs on that collection, but I like pretty much everything else.  Even the Home edit.  I mean, I prefer the original, but that edit is a pretty tasty morsel, IMHO.

The problem with the collection is that there is no representation of the epic side of their music.  I would have preferred if something like that was included rather than those unnecessary I&W remixes, or I Walk Beside You.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on August 13, 2014, 01:57:48 PM
Who did the remixes?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 13, 2014, 02:31:56 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 13, 2014, 01:57:48 PM
Who did the remixes?
I don't have it right in front of me, but I'm thinking it was Kevin Shirley.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 13, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
I can't listen to the remixes mostly because of the snare. It feels flat, out of place. And that weird effect they put on James' voice, which makes it sound as if he's singing flat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 13, 2014, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 13, 2014, 02:31:56 PM
Quote from: Stadler on August 13, 2014, 01:57:48 PM
Who did the remixes?
I don't have it right in front of me, but I'm thinking it was Kevin Shirley.

That's correct.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 13, 2014, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 13, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
I can't listen to the remixes mostly because of the snare. It feels flat, out of place. And that weird effect they put on James' voice, which makes it sound as if he's singing flat.

There's an effect on James' voice that's different to I&W mix? I've never noticed this, sounds curious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 13, 2014, 07:47:16 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 13, 2014, 07:44:39 PM
There's an effect on James' voice that's different to I&W mix? I've never noticed this, sounds curious.

I couldn't hear it. In fact, that was the one striking thing about them, how "samey" James' voice is... Which makes sense, since it's a part of the same recording.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 14, 2014, 12:52:36 AM
JLB's voice sounds grittier to me on the remix in sections, like there's less reverb on his voice, and some bits sound more double tracked. It has more clarity than the original studio version. Completely different vocal production that brings out different elements of his voice.
I do much prefer the original versions though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 14, 2014, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: rumborak on August 13, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
I can't listen to the remixes mostly because of the snare. It feels flat, out of place. And that weird effect they put on James' voice, which makes it sound as if he's singing flat.
I agree 100% about the snare.  That's the main reason I rarely listen to those versions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 14, 2014, 11:36:03 AM
I think of myself as a big DT fan but not once did it ever cross my mind to by the Greatest Hit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wasteland on August 14, 2014, 12:24:37 PM
I actually bought the Greatest Hits about five years ago. It's not that I regret doing so, but I don't cheerish this possession of mine particularly.  :lol

It would have been interesting to see MP's picks for the Epic Side, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 14, 2014, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 14, 2014, 11:36:03 AM
I think of myself as a big DT fan but not one did it ever cross my mind to by the Greatest Hit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 14, 2014, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: TAC on August 14, 2014, 02:39:39 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 14, 2014, 11:36:03 AM
I think of myself as a big DT fan but not once did it ever cross my mind to by the Greatest Hit.

FTFY since I can't spell. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 14, 2014, 04:21:29 PM
BUY

I bought it because collections.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 14, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
I just can't pull the trigger Zook.  I have it all and still reading others post the tweets aren't worth much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 14, 2014, 04:46:55 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 14, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
I just can't pull the trigger Zook.  I have it all and still reading others post the tweets aren't worth much.

So you can't spell BUY correctly or you can't buy Greatest Hit?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 14, 2014, 04:50:56 PM
 :lol :facepalm:

That too. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 14, 2014, 04:59:32 PM
:zook2:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 14, 2014, 09:12:45 PM
I actually heard Greatest Hit before I'd even heard the first half of DTs discography (PMU being the exception) and I think it was the 3rd or 4th album I got from them (after BL&SL/TOT and maybe SC). So pretty much everything on the compilation that represents I&W to SDOIT was first introduced to me on this CD. Although I didn't spend too much time listening to the compilations before I ended up getting the original albums.

In retrospect, I do think it needed an 'epic' side, or a 'proggy' side. My picks would be: Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, The Glass Prison, Octavarium, The Dance of Eternity. I'd consider A Mind Beside Itself but The Silent Man is already on 'The Light Side' (although it could have been moved for the context of a third disc). I'd also consider some stuff like In The Name Of God and maybe some more SDOIT and SFAM stuff but I think I'd already be over 80 minutes on the third disc by that point.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 14, 2014, 09:14:24 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 14, 2014, 09:12:45 PM
I actually heard Greatest Hit before I'd even heard the first half of DTs discography (PMU being the exception) and I think it was the 3rd or 4th album I got from them (after BL&SL/TOT and maybe SC). So pretty much everything on the compilation that represents I&W to SDOIT was first introduced to me on this CD. Although I didn't spend too much time listening to the compilations before I ended up getting the original albums.

Yeah, same here. I do have to say, some of the songs on it didn't accurately represent their respective albums. Between Lie and Lifting Shadows, I was really expecting something different from Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:21:28 PM
Wrote this post in the musical direction thread but decided that it was a better fit here:
I like the blast beats and growls on ANTR. I think Portnoy should've gone out like he was planning to, instead of compromising with the pseudo-growl thing he went with. Anyway, it's a bit cheesy and all but cheesy music never bothered me. I don't think they were taking it seriously anyway; I mean come on, they had a video of cookie monster playing while doing it live. And besides, the original JLB part they had was god awful.

And yea I really like the blast beats. They aren't the best blast beats imaginable but come on, people are always taking shots at MP for not doing anything new with his drumming, and this is him doing something new! Of course he isn't going to master it the first time around, but it was cool seeing him doing something different and it made a somewhat repetitive riff more interesting IMO.

Honestly the only real problem I have with ANTR is the solo section. Some of the worst soloing I've heard from both JP and JR. The entire section is pointless too, it's so shoehorned. The rest of the song is ace though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:28:20 PM
I think they should have just had someone who can actually growl perform that part.

Of course, then all the harsh vocal-averse fans would have shat themselves with rage, but you can't please everyone. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:32:41 PM
I'm not harsh vocals averse, but I think there's a place for everything, and I don't think guttural growls have their place in DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:34:20 PM
I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:32:41 PM
I'm not harsh vocals averse, but I think there's a place for everything, and I don't think guttural growls have their place in DT.
I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:34:20 PM
I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.

I think this is true, too. Honestly, I prefer if an artist/band just does whatever they want, regardless of what people think about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.


Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.

I could be wrong, but heck, look at what happened when MP started singing in the band. It started with just singing harmonies, and then we'd hear more and more of him, until we had him singing whole parts. And sure, what we had on SC wasn't bad, I actually didn't mind some of his parts, and even a few of them on BC&SL weren't completely awful. But still, it wasn't particularly a direction I liked them going towards.

In terms of vocals, I'd say MP leaving was the biggest blessing of all.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:46:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:34:20 PM
I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.
This.

I don't like the idea of "x doesn't have a place in DT". That's when they stop being a progressive band. The whole point of the genre is to push boundaries and do the unexpected. DT should do more of that imo.

Say what you will about MP, but he was great at taking DT to territories that people might not expect. Sure it may not have worked very often, but it was still really interesting to hear and it kept listeners on their toes. It's not like that anymore.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.


Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.


Oh come on, they used growls once. There's no reason to assume that would've happened.  :lol

And I see your argument with the MP vocals too but it never reached the point where half the songs involved MP singing lead vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:48:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.


Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.

I could be wrong, but heck, look at what happened when MP started singing in the band. It started with just singing harmonies, and then we'd hear more and more of him, until we had him singing whole parts. And sure, what we had on SC wasn't bad, I actually didn't mind some of his parts, and even a few of them on BC&SL weren't completely awful. But still, it wasn't particularly a direction I liked them going towards.

In terms of vocals, I'd say MP leaving was the biggest blessing of all.


MP's been singing harmonies forever, though. And I don't think he honestly sang that much in DT.

Off the top of my head, there's the call-and-response of TGP and CM, the pseudo-rap of POW (which I actually like, sue me), and then the sections on ANTR and TCOT, and I thought the "I!" parts on TCOT were actually really cool. And I guess a bit of background stuff on AROP?

I'll admit, the dude doesn't have a great singing voice, but I think the complaints about him assuming too much vocal duty in DT were always a bit overblown.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:48:36 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:46:00 PM
Oh come on, they used growls once. There's no reason to assume that would've happened.  :lol

And I see your argument with the MP vocals too but it never reached the point where half the songs involved MP singing lead vocals.

Maybe not, but in a hypothetical world where MP never quit the band, who knows how the next DT album would have turned out? Honestly, BCSL left me quite wary, and it wasn't until he quit and they hired MM, that I finally got excited about hearing what they'd bring out again.

And considering JLB's past 2 solo albums, he's obviously humble enough to take a back seat to allow another vocalist to do lead parts on some of the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
People overstate MP's vocals role in the band. It was mostly harmonies and interplay with JLB, which worked well. It was one or two sections max where you could even count it as a lead vocal.
Personally I very much miss the contrast of voices. ADTOE was a very simplistic album vocally, and lacking the 3 part harmonies that had become a prominent part of their music with MP and JP. I don't think even DT12 has much of it either. MP was pushing the vocals overall, not just for himself, but for the whole arrangement. He clearly had an ear for it.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:48:36 PM
And considering JLB's past 2 solo albums, he's obviously humble enough to take a back seat to allow another vocalist to do lead parts on some of the songs.

Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:52:14 PM
Yea I miss the backing vocals too, I thought MP had a bunch of really cool ideas when it came to vocal harmonies and counter-melodies.

People place way too much blame on MP for the last two albums he did with them. The rest of the band are just as guilty for pushing that direction along with him. Lets not forget who actually write the music in the band. MP was, at the very most, creative direction. If anything, it's the other guys' fault for writing subpar music.

Edit: I like BC&SL anyway. It's not very proggy and kinda heavy but I think the epics are really good, especially ANTR and TCOT. It's not my favorite album, but I enjoy it. SC is awful though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Well, I'll tell you what I don't miss. "Let me introduce... My brotha!" I certainly don't miss his backups during the first verse of AROP. He really brought down a lot of those parts, IMO. And yes, ADTOE was overly simplistic vocally, but even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album! :lol

It was only a couple of the songs. I do think Impermanent Resonance was a huge improvement, and really made JLB's parts shine.

But I'd still rather listen to any song on Static Impulse than the verses of AROP or TCOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 15, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
JLB (at times) in 2014 is the best he's been since shrimpgate
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 15, 2014, 10:12:53 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:52:14 PM
SC is awful though.

I don't agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 10:18:44 PM
Yeah, SC is way better than BC&SL. I actually enjoyed MP's vocal contributions on that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
Well, I'll tell you what I don't miss. "Let me introduce... My brotha!" I certainly don't miss his backups during the first verse of AROP. He really brought down a lot of those parts, IMO. And yes, ADTOE was overly simplistic vocally, but even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album! :lol

It was only a couple of the songs. I do think Impermanent Resonance was a huge improvement, and really made JLB's parts shine.

But I'd still rather listen to any song on Static Impulse than the verses of AROP or TCOT.

At least half of the songs on SI have the pig squeals. It's not just a couple of songs. It's at least as much as MP ever did with DT. And it's much more obnoxious and upfront. It totally ruins One More Time for me, which would probably otherwise be my favourite JLB solo song, if not for the ridiculous DABADABA RADABABDBDBA verses. Every single verse. MP only did verses in one song, and it was 30 seconds out of 16 minutes. Hardly worth the prog-nerd-rage it constantly gets.
IR was a huge improvement though, and incorporated them a lot better (and they were just better quality growls).

I love the verses of AROP. Another underrated song and vocal. I'm not big on the ones in TCOT, but that's mostly not because of MP's vocals, but because JLB's vocal melodies aren't strong at all in that pre-chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
Come on, there are no pig squeals on SI. Listen to BTBAM's first album if you want real pig squeals. (it's awesome)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 15, 2014, 10:28:33 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
Come on, there are no pig squeals on SI. Listen to BTBAM's first album if you want real pig squeals. (it's awesome)

And there are no growls on any of DT's albums, yet people seem to keep saying it!
I know SI isn't technically pig squeals (which are awful), but they remind me more of that than growled death vox, which are the only kind I enjoy. They're just shrieky shouting (not actual shrieks either which are also awful).
Compare that to Agony, and that little change made a huge difference for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 15, 2014, 10:38:06 PM
Yeah, I really don't know what to call 'em. I guess they're just screams? I like them, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 10:44:45 PM
I heard the term Power Screaming used before. I'd say it's as good of a term as any. And it's okay, on its own, like in ANTR. But behind JLB's vocals, it's just annoying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 16, 2014, 03:09:42 AM
The correct term is "tough guy vocals".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2014, 04:46:03 AM
Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on August 16, 2014, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2014, 04:46:03 AM
Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

Yeah unfortunately that's the case for almost all of BC&SL for me. While i enjoyed it a lot at first, it slowly has become my least favorite DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 16, 2014, 04:59:10 AM
Me personally I'd rather listen to BC&SL than SC or WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2014, 05:42:22 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 16, 2014, 04:59:10 AM
Me personally I'd rather listen to BC&SL than SC or WDADU.
Those are all near the bottom for me, so not really a choice I'd like to make.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on August 16, 2014, 07:26:11 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2014, 04:46:03 AM
Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

I don't think that's all that controversial to be honest, but yeah, I agree to extent. I still like the Beautiful Agony section quite a bit, but so other many moments make me want to switch the song off long before it even ends. It's not totally irredeemable, but  it's not a DT song I think about going back to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tiagodon on August 16, 2014, 07:49:28 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2014, 04:46:03 AM
Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

It works perfectly for me. It's one of the most powerful songs of the band in my opinion. One of my favorites. I love it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on August 16, 2014, 07:56:12 AM
ToT 100% was influenced by and sounds like nu-metal. Anyone that disputes this is overly pedantic. It's not 100% nu-metal, of course
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 07:58:49 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on August 16, 2014, 07:56:12 AM
ToT 100% was influenced by and sounds like nu-metal. Anyone that disputes this is overly pedantic. It's not 100% nu-metal, of course

I see nothing wrong with that. Although I definitely wouldn't say 100% influenced by it. There were quite a few non-nu metal elements in it, that sounded more like they were inspire by Thrash and maybe even some NWOBHM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 16, 2014, 08:07:08 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 15, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

This, exactly.  Portnoy might have had a good ear for when to do different things vocally, but he didn't have the voice for it, and when you had someone like him singing a lead part next to a guy with a voice like JLB, it sometimes came off as rather amateurish (see: Constant Motion).  It works a lot better in Transatlantic because a) he tends to do softer vocals with them, and b) his voice sounds better in that context since none of the guys in that band have an operatic-type voice.  Imagine someone else in the band trying to play guitar and them doing a solo section where Petrucci and this person go back and forth with soloing.  It would sound totally off since that other person wouldn't be nearly on the level that Petrucci is on.  Now, something like the first verse of The Glass Prison works because JLB's voice is distorted, so the difference is not obvious; same thing with The Dark Eternal Night, where all of Portnoy's vocals are ran through a distorted effect.  On the flip side, while that song is impossible to save because of the verses and FOREVERMORE INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING, I can't help but wonder how much better Constant Motion's chorus would have sounded with a better singer doing the call and response with JLB.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 16, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
There was hardly any nu-metal influence on ToT. There were the spoken vocals in HTF, and that's about it. I thought the concept of ToT was basically inspired by playing TGP and MoP on the SDOIT tour, so mostly Pantera and Metallica influences.
ToT is progressive metal, influenced by thrash with some hints of more modern metal influences, including to a tiny degree nu-metal. But it doesn't sound like nu-metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on August 16, 2014, 08:25:13 AM
Yeah, I never get where the nu-metal comparisons come from..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 08:31:54 AM
Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 16, 2014, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 08:31:54 AM
Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I don't think it sounds anything like either of those. :lol
It's just Dream Theater playing heavy metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 16, 2014, 08:35:49 AM
Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies. :lol :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on August 16, 2014, 08:35:49 AM
Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies. :lol :lol

No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on August 16, 2014, 10:56:32 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on August 16, 2014, 08:35:49 AM
Yeah, I don't think it sounds the least bit like Enter Sandman.  Perhaps TGP is confusing it with Peruvian Skies. :lol :lol

No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.

I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: GasparXR on August 16, 2014, 10:56:32 AM
I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.

Yeah, but the heavy riffs in peruvian skies don't come into the picture until after the second verse. There are certainly similar qualities in the riffs themselves, but I'm not talking about compositional similarities, I'm talking about stylistic. I just feel like As I Am is stylistically a lot like Black Album era Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on August 16, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 15, 2014, 09:21:28 PM
Honestly the only real problem I have with ANTR is the solo section. Some of the worst soloing I've heard from both JP and JR. The entire section is pointless too, it's so shoehorned. The rest of the song is ace though.

Jordan's second solo is quite poor, but the others, especially JP's first, are great. ANTR is good until JP's second solo in this section; the rest of the song loses its welcome, and goes on far too long. If they had cut out most of the the song from this point to the final heavy chorus and then shortened the outro, it would have been much better. As it is, it is a bottom 5 DT song. It feels like a 10 minute song stretched out to 16 minutes.

Quote from: GasparXR on August 16, 2014, 10:56:32 AM
I don't know about that. Peruvian Skies is even in the same key as Enter Sandman and has the same/a very similar tempo, as shown on the OiaLT live version.

Not to mention that the clean guitar part is similar to Enter Sandman's opening. When I first heard PS, I thought that ES had played by accident.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on August 17, 2014, 01:02:37 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
No, I know what Peruvian Skies is. Honestly, I could sing parts of Enter Sandman to the As I Am beat, and it would fit.

This really doesn't mean anything.  Any song can be sung along to any other song, especially ones in 4:4, by simply altering tempo and/or pitch.  It's pretty cool, actually.  Here is an example:

Jimmy Fallon Sings 80s Songs to "Hammer Time"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQM6ZQZuwj4

I have a really cool fan remix of The Shattered Fortress from back when the BC&SL stems were released that is a perfect example of what I'm talking about but I can't find it on Youtube anywhere.  It has pop song references all through it from Michael Jackson to No Doubt to that "milkshake" song.  You can really tell when the pitch and/or tempo were changed to fit the song.  It's really great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 17, 2014, 05:16:32 AM
Well, every other song doesn't remind me of every other song. As I Am reminds me of Metallica, is all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on August 17, 2014, 06:40:44 PM
Man, The Count of Tuscany hasn't aged well at all for me. It's not only the lyrics, is the song as a whole that I like less and less as time goes by. The intro and final parts are still really nice, however.







THE COUNT OF TUSCANYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 17, 2014, 07:37:40 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on August 17, 2014, 06:40:44 PM
Man, The Count of Tuscany hasn't aged well at all for me. It's not only the lyrics, is the song as a whole that I like less and less as time goes by. The intro and final parts are still really nice, however.







THE COUNT OF TUSCANYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

It has actually aged for me really well. The middle, the heavy chunk of it, I was never that crazy about anyway. And all the quiet, nice melodic parts, I've grown to appreciate a lot more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 17, 2014, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 16, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
There was hardly any nu-metal influence on ToT. There were the spoken vocals in HTF, and that's about it. I thought the concept of ToT was basically inspired by playing TGP and MoP on the SDOIT tour, so mostly Pantera and Metallica influences.
ToT is progressive metal, influenced by thrash with some hints of more modern metal influences, including to a tiny degree nu-metal. But it doesn't sound like nu-metal.

Pretty much this, and especially the bolded part. The nu-metal influences were probably there, but it doesn't necessarily make the overall product sound anything like nu-metal.

JLB's Elements of Persuasion is a much better example of nu-metal influences showing through.

Regarding 'growls' 'screams' and 'roooars' discussion, Impermanent Resonance has a nice balance. It doesn't sound like he's trying to yell me to death, it sounds like an expressive quality of the vocal style and it is enunciated well enough that I can understand (which tends to be an issue with these vocal styles, can't understand without a the lyric page or booklet accompaniment). Undertow is a good example of the more finely tuned harsh vocals on IR. Those screams are not too obnoxious, but still powerful and effective within the music.

Also, ANTR isn't that bad... As I've said before, BL&SL was practically my first DT album and I can't remember thinking anything of that blast beat/growl section at first, perhaps other than the thought that it was a bit different to the rest of the song but nothing too extreme. And I still don't have a problem with it. I can see why people feel the song might be overall; a bit bloated and that some parts might overstay their welcome but it has it's redeeming qualities that almost make up for it in my opinion. Besides, the music tells a story of a journey or something.. probably..  :lol

EDIT: As for TCOT well that was a total grower. I didn't like it at first, it was that one song at the end of the album that didn't click in some way surprisingly. It actually took a friend of mine getting his mind blown by the intro and build up to make me pay more attention and appreciate it. This friend was practically obsessed with the song so I started to hear it more often then it grew on me. Honestly, it was the chorus that put me off. I just couldn't buy into it and it sounded embarrassing. But eventually, I decided that was a silly notion because it has to be some kind of personal insecurity to feel embarrassed for a piece of music because it is how it is so either learn to love it the way it is or don't bother listening to it anymore and deliberately putting yourself through a questionable experience. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 17, 2014, 09:09:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 08:31:54 AM
Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 17, 2014, 09:17:42 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 17, 2014, 09:09:49 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 16, 2014, 08:31:54 AM
Apparently As I Am has Nu Metal influences. I still say it sounds like Enter Sandman more than anything.

I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something  :lol

Holy crap, THANK YOU! At least SOMEONE gets it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on August 17, 2014, 09:31:19 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on August 17, 2014, 09:09:49 PM
I always thought As I Am was a lost brother of Enter Sandman or something  :lol

In terms of the riffage and the overall 'feel', definitely sounds like a long-lost 'bro.  The question is... do they hug when they see each other or do they shake hands?  I say "Brothers don't shake hands... brothers gotta hug!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 17, 2014, 09:34:40 PM
Quote from: PetFish on August 17, 2014, 09:31:19 PM
In terms of the riffage and the overall 'feel', definitely sounds like a long-lost 'bro.  The question is... do they hug when they see each other or do they shake hands?  I say "Brothers don't shake hands... brothers gotta hug!"

I think they hug. The older one might be a bit more rough around the edges, a bit of a meathead, and the younger might be more of an intellectual, but they're kind of like Dean and Sam Winchester, I think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
I don't think the Enter Sandman comparison is as ridiculous as some make it out to be. I don't know if I'd cite a specific song, but there's a definite Metallica meets DT thing happening in As I Am. Right down to the drum beat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
I don't think the Enter Sandman comparison is as ridiculous as some make it out to be. I don't know if I'd cite a specific song, but there's a definite Metallica meets DT thing happening in As I Am. Right down to the drum beat.

The drum beat is literally the most basic alternating bass/snare drum beat in existence in rock/metal. I could also point to 100 AC/DC songs with the same drum beat. :lol It just happens to be a similar tempo to Enter Sandman that also uses the same drum beat.

Musically, it's mostly not Metallica at all imo, aside from the riff. The main riff certainly could be, but OTOH no more specifically Metallica than many other metal bands. Chugging metal riff in standard metal scale (don't know the name of it, but basically minor with the flattened 2nd) with flattened fifth note. That could be any metal band. Yeah, Enter Sandman has a prominent flattened fifth in the riff too, but that's where the comparisons end with that song.
That opening slow riff is straight from Black Sabbath (the song, and the band), and the main riff is a sped up variant of that, inspired by thrash in general, including Metallica who have been one of DT's bigger influences, so comparing that to Metallica isn't ridiculous at all. Enter Sandman isn't a Metallica song I'd cite as similar in style though.

Beyond that, the vocal melodies are nothing like Metallica. Hetfield's signature is grunting out the same few notes (basically the root, third and seventh below the root), while As I Am covers a much larger full octave range covering minor and mixolydian scales for a very different feel to what Metallica does.
And then there's the low-key prechorus with the stick hit drum beat, the softly spoken vocals and the 3 part harmony section, and the half time feel chorus. None of it is reminiscent of Metallica.

There are plenty of DT sections and songs that show strong influence from Metallica, but I've never heard any strong similarity between As I Am and Enter Sandman, or for the most part Metallica in general. Change "As I Am" to "Constant Motion" and get back to me. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 11:27:27 PM
Ultimately I think it's one of those "you either hear it or you don't" things. You're definitely right about the song not being written specifically in Metallica's style, yet the tone of the song is reminiscent of Metallica to me. And yea that locrian mode has been a metal staple since Black Sabbath, yet DT's use of it in this song screams Metallica to me. Also, not gonna lie, I hear JLB channeling Hetfield at times.

On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go. :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2014, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 11:27:27 PM
On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go. :p

Now I know you're just messing with me. :lol Come on!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on August 17, 2014, 11:29:36 PM
Creeping Motion  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2014, 11:37:19 PM
Constant Disposable Motion of Heroes With No Remorse :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on August 17, 2014, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2014, 11:19:39 PM
Chugging metal riff in standard metal scale (don't know the name of it, but basically minor with the flattened 2nd) with flattened fifth note.

It's called Locrian mode. It's essentially the major scale starting and ending on the seventh degree.

Now for some controversial opinions:

-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.

-Dream Theater's music without Portnoy seems less focused to my ear. I don't know what it is, but the songs don't flow as well. (They're still great songs though).

-Octavarium is Dream Theater's third best album.

-The Count of Tuscany is better than the DT epics excluding Octavarium and A Change of Seasons.

-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 17, 2014, 11:47:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 17, 2014, 11:28:41 PM
Quote from: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 11:27:27 PM
On the contrary, I've seen the comparison before and I still don't hear much similarity between Constant Motion and Metallica. So there you go. :p

Now I know you're just messing with me. :lol Come on!
Where is that YT video of some guy (maybe adam?) imitating Petrucci with riffs back to back from some metallica song and constant motion that sounded pretty much identical where you need it? xD

Quote
-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.
I guess there's a first time for everything. What do you like more in those albums, dare I ask? :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on August 18, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
Quote from: abydos on August 17, 2014, 11:47:59 PM
Quote
-Black Clouds & Silver Linings and When Dream and Day Unite are both better than Awake.
I guess there's a first time for everything. What do you like more in those albums, dare I ask? :)

I prefer those for two different reasons. I generally prefer it when DT is proggier than heavier. My three favorite albums are SFaM, I&W, and 8VM and while they have their heavier moments, they're more progressive than metal. Same thing with WDADU. It's a very proggy album to my ears and you can also hear the passion that comes with a band's debut album. I also like Charlie's voice. Not as much as James' voice but I still like it. I also don't mind the production. This means the two biggest complaints I have seen about the album don't bother me.

Black Clouds is a different beast. I will say that it is a very inconsistent album. I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot. Wither is okay but forgettable. However, A Nightmare to Remember, The Shattered Fortress, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany are all Top 25 DT songs for me. I also don't mind a lot of the issues that people have with this album. My biggest complaint is that Jordan's lead sound on this album is piercing in my ears. It almost hurts in headphones and other than the aforementioned be-bot, none of his solos are particularly memorable. John's guitar playing on the other hand is amazing. I think other than SFaM and I&W, this is his best album. TSF and TBoT are Top 5 JP solos for me and his riffs are awesome throughout. His solo is the high point in Wither.

I can see why people really enjoy Awake, and I do think it's a great album (every DT album is), but it doesn't do it for me. I feel like the keyboards were an afterthought on this album, which might have been a result of what was going on with Kevin at the time. Space-Dye Vest is an exception with this. I absolutely hate the drum sound on this album (funny how the three worst albums drum sound wise are the three that Tama drums aren't being used). After an album like Images & Words, for them to jump to an album that sounds like Awake is very jarring and it feels very unwelcoming as someone else on this forum said. I rank this album 7th or 8th in my list.

I also would like to add a few more opinions that I forgot to put in my first post:

-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

-You Not Me really isn't that bad.

-Enigma Machine is the best song on DT12
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on August 18, 2014, 01:33:53 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 17, 2014, 11:47:44 PM
-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wasn't too thrown off by anything you said until this.  :eek

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 18, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot.

This surprises me though. But I like Be-bot too.  ;)

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 18, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

This, definitely!  :metal

So why don't you like TGP?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on August 19, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on August 18, 2014, 01:33:53 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 17, 2014, 11:47:44 PM
-The Glass Prison is the worst song on Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wasn't too thrown off by anything you said until this.  :eek

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 18, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
I don't really like A Rite of Passage other than be-bot.

This surprises me though. But I like Be-bot too.  ;)

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 18, 2014, 12:27:52 AM
-Both Panic Attack and Constant Motion are Top 25 DT songs.

This, definitely!  :metal

So why don't you like TGP?

It's not that I don't like TGP. It's a great song. I just enjoy the other five songs on 6DOIT more. The problem with picking favorites is that you're gonna have things ranked lower than others which makes it look like you dislike them. It's like that with more than just music. I like buffalo wings more than cheeseburgers but I still really like cheeseburgers. I will however give my critique of the song. As I said when talking about Awake, I prefer DT's proggier side to their metal side and TGP is more straight up metal. I also don't like the rap influence in it. There's nothing wrong with rap (Eminem could be considered my guilty pleasure) but I don't think it was executed all that well in this song. It's the second worst part of the 12SS (This Dying Soul is worse but still good). The thing is, Dream Theater doesn't have a bad song. I would rather listen to A Rite of Passage or You Not Me than anything being played on the radio today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on August 19, 2014, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 19, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
It's not that I don't like TGP. It's a great song. I just enjoy the other five songs on 6DOIT more.

I rank TGP a close second but with SDOIT, it's just like you said, i don't dislike any song there.

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 19, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
There's nothing wrong with rap (Eminem could be considered my guilty pleasure) but I don't think it was executed all that well in this song.

You're right but Eminem is immensely overhyped, tons of better hip hop artists out there.

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on August 19, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
The thing is, Dream Theater doesn't have a bad song. I would rather listen to A Rite of Passage or You Not Me than anything being played on the radio today.

Well, anything pales if compared to most music played in the radio nowadays but i do think Dream Theater have bad songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Mypetgiress on August 20, 2014, 06:51:52 AM
I think Prophets of War is a timeless classic, and that Systematic Chaos is an all round good (although not great) album.




I'm going to get perma-banned for that, aren't I...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2014, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 08:00:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2014, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*

For some reason i was sure you'd be the first to reply  :lol :lol
Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 08:00:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 20, 2014, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
I think that JR doesn't even come close to Derek's sounds on FII, and that most of the songs from FII have suffered live from JR's sound choices.

And almost every song suffered like from Derek's sound choices. OIALT..... *shudder*

For some reason i was sure you'd be the first to reply  :lol :lol
Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.

Of course I'm the first to reply! :biggrin: :lol
I hate Derek's solo sound, but I've gone into that before many many many times. JR's Kurzweil lead was the best DT lead by far imo, but I'm not as big on his lead sound since switching to the Korgs post-8V. It's not as fat.
Derek only had about 4 sounds, which worked great on FII when you're writing the music, but worked horribly live when you're trying to recreate music that is supposed to be a little more diverse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 20, 2014, 08:15:56 AM
I would agree that DS sounded great on FII, but live he would often fail to capture the proper sounds.  His organ work on FII sounded great though...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on August 20, 2014, 08:16:51 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on August 20, 2014, 08:00:10 AM

Seriously, Derek at times was a little sloppy live, but damn, his sounds on FII are awesome, especially his solo sound. JR's sounds just so wimpy and artificial in contrast.

It probably doesn't help that Rudess is, by and large, a fairly mediocre soloist.  For as incredible a player he is, his soloing leaves a lot to be desired more often than not, usually because he goes overboard with playing super fast and trying to bend notes into submission.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on August 20, 2014, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: Mosh on August 17, 2014, 11:27:27 PM
Also, not gonna lie, I hear JLB channeling Hetfield at times.
After the last chorus, at the "As I aaaaaammmm....yeeeeeeeaaaaaah" part, it's hard not to think of Hetfield. Of course it has that unique DT flavor, but parts As I Am strongly reminded me of Metallica and Enter Sandman since the first time I heard it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on August 20, 2014, 10:21:34 AM
Yup that's exactly what I was thinking of. Undeniably Hetfield.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 20, 2014, 10:58:20 AM
Quote from: James Mypetgiress on August 20, 2014, 06:51:52 AM
I'm going to get perma-banned for that, aren't I...
Nope.  But you're still new, don't give up hope yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 23, 2014, 06:28:51 PM
You know it's funny that at least a few people have mentioned that James sounded like Hetfield on ToT. There were a few parts where I thought he sounded like Dave Mustaine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 23, 2014, 06:47:01 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on August 23, 2014, 06:28:51 PM
You know it's funny that at least a few people have mentioned that James sounded like Hetfield on ToT. There were a few parts where I thought he sounded like Dave Mustaine.

Which ones?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 23, 2014, 08:26:31 PM
Not necessarily WHOLE songs, but PARTS of songs. I just thought it was ironic that I thought I was hearing Mustaine, when other people said they were hearing Hetfield.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on August 23, 2014, 08:32:35 PM
The only time I hear James sounding like Mustaine is after the Blackened section in This Dying Soul.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2014, 09:30:49 PM
He's definitely channeling Hetfield and Mustaine in TDS (although he has a natural tendency to sound like Mustaine at times, so that's not intentional), and maybe a bit here or there, but overall he sings a lot cleaner on ToT than growlier.

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 24, 2014, 03:17:25 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2014, 09:30:49 PM

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol

You think so? That's like, my favorite song on the album!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 03:22:11 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 24, 2014, 03:17:25 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 23, 2014, 09:30:49 PM

He sounds so much like Mustaine on Crucify from EoP, that the first time I heard it, I didn't know what it was, and thought it was Megadeth. :lol

You think so? That's like, my favorite song on the album!

It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 24, 2014, 03:27:30 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 03:22:11 AM
It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
I just listened to it, and I can't say I hear any Mustainisms in it, unless you couny the solos, but I can hardly blame LaBrie for those, haha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 04:24:41 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 24, 2014, 03:27:30 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 03:22:11 AM
It's one of my favourites too. I never meant it as a bad thing!
I just listened to it, and I can't say I hear any Mustainisms in it, unless you couny the solos, but I can hardly blame LaBrie for those, haha.

His voice in the verses just reminded me of Mustaine's voice. I wouldn't say there was anything else dinstinctly Mustaine to his performance, but LaBrie can occasionally sound a bit like a much, much, much better version of Mustaine. And the song is kinda thrashy. That's where the similarities end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on August 24, 2014, 04:25:59 AM
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 04:27:24 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on August 24, 2014, 04:25:59 AM
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.

His spoken verses in This Dying Soul sound Mustaine-y too. Not sure there's much else, at least in DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 24, 2014, 04:43:54 AM
Except James can sing in key. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 04:44:52 AM
I don't think anyone's comparing singing ability here. :lol Just the toooooooone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 24, 2014, 04:53:43 AM
 :lol

Yup.  I actually think that section you talked about was inspired by MP.  Remember in the Doc of TOT how he pushed James to sing certain ways.  That's all MP to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 04:56:06 AM
I don't think MP was pushing him to sound like that, that's just how JLB's voice sounds when he gets growlier, whether sung or spoken, and MP pointed that out. He sounds equally Mustaine-y on Crucify too, without any MP input.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 24, 2014, 04:59:25 AM
I'm not saying it's a bad thing.  I think it fits perfect for the tone of the material and what the song is about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 05:01:06 AM
I know, I'm just saying it doesn't take much pushing for JLB to sound like that, so I don't think it was all MP, even if it was his idea to steer in that direction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 24, 2014, 05:03:23 AM
That I agree with.  I think his lower register is better than his high register later in his career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on August 24, 2014, 07:39:05 AM
This conversation reminded me of TROAE on LALP, James sounds like Hetfield there to me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 24, 2014, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 24, 2014, 04:27:24 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on August 24, 2014, 04:25:59 AM
The only time James strongly reminded me of Mustaine was during the first verse of Behind the Veil.

His spoken verses in This Dying Soul sound Mustaine-y too. Not sure there's much else, at least in DT.

Yes, and yes. Wow, I never even thought of it, but yes, very Mustainy. Well, at least he said, "Hello, mirror, so glad to see you my friend," and not, "Hello me! Meet the real me!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on August 24, 2014, 02:05:07 PM
Actually it was "As I Am."

I just listened to it, And I don't hear it as much as I did at first, but it's there.

From the "Watching through a window" part, through the end of the chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 27, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
Okay, I just realized why MP's comment bothered me so much, when he said that if they were looking for a new vocalist, he wouldn't pick JLB.
The whole issue is that he was talking about going with a more fashionable choice, and these days, JLB's vocal style isn't all that fashionable, and that's completely understandable, so I couldn't figure out why it bothered me so much. It wasn't just that JLB is awesome and we should all love JLB, I mean, I wasn't into his vocal style at first either. But today, it finally occurred to me.

Basically, he implied that he'd go for a more contemporary vocal style, something that's more fashionable now... Which is fine, but when you think about it, Prog Metal in itself hasn't been fashionable for a long time. Heck, even when DT started out, it wasn't at the top of its popularity of anything. And this has all been said before. But here's the issue: He singled out JLB. Okay, so back then, they wanted a certain style, a certain sound, and they combined elements from bands they loved, they combined Metallica's heaviness, Iron Maiden's epicness, Rush's complex structures and time signatures, etc. And all this resonated in their sound, including their vocalists. Even before JLB, Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici were both softer vocalists, whose style in Dream Theater could be compared to people like Geddy Lee, John Arch or (then) Geoff Tate. So when JLB came along, yes, while he had monstrously higher range than the previous guys, and the power and intensity enough to blow you away, he still had the softer timbre and more Rush like quality.
What's my point? My point is that at the time, even if JLB's vocal style wasn't that far removed from Glam Metal, Glam was already on its way out, and DT's style wasn't that anyway so it wasn't like they were planning to get mainstream success by riding the coat tails of Motley Crue or Dokken. All they were trying to do was stay true to themselves and the kind of musical vision they had in mind.
But now, (and when I say now, I mean at the time of the interview) he said they'd go for a more fashionable voice, and wouldn't hire JLB. Again, that's fine, many years had passed, and MP clearly is a different person now than he was, and opinions change, etc. But again, the problem was that he singled out JLB. He could've said, "We'd probably also end up with two guitarists instead of keyboards," or "We probably wouldn't be playing Prog, but rather something heavier and more straight forward". He basically said, "That's our vocalist, and if we were looking for a new vocalist now, we wouldn't hire him," which is almost like saying, "We're only keeping him around because that's just what everyone is used to by now and that's the range our catalog is in." And that bothers me not only because it's disrespectful to JLB, but because it really seems like he'd given it some thought, in that particular context.

Just felt like sharing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on October 27, 2014, 10:25:05 PM
It also seems like when he talks about more controversial things he tends to use the word "we" but no other member has given any indication that they share his sentiment  (When it is less controversial and more universally praised he likes to use the word "I").    John Petrucci has never said anything near that regarding wanting to replace James.  In Lifting Shadows (the book) the closest JP comes to criticisizing James during that time was that he said something along the lines of, "We just asked him, 'Are you even into this anymore?'"  The rest of what he said was very caring in nature.  Jordan essentially had no comment since he was still the new guy.  JM wasn't quoted at all. 

I think it is clear that the "we" MP was talking about was just him. 

But yeah, GreatPretender, you made a great point.  If they would have changed vocalist they would have lost a lot of momentum (and yeah, maybe gained some momentum but I doubt it would last).  They would have chased a trendier sound and it really would have divided the fans.  Even though there are a lot of DT fans that complain about the band and a lot have fallen off in number, there is a much larger group that is still incredibly devout. 

I for one probably would not have stuck around if they went with a Russell Allen type.  Talented guy no doubt but there is something about his voice I could never get into. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 04:36:39 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 27, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
Okay, I just realized why MP's comment bothered me so much, when he said that if they were looking for a new vocalist, he wouldn't pick JLB.
The whole issue is that he was talking about going with a more fashionable choice, and these days, JLB's vocal style isn't all that fashionable, and that's completely understandable, so I couldn't figure out why it bothered me so much. It wasn't just that JLB is awesome and we should all love JLB, I mean, I wasn't into his vocal style at first either. But today, it finally occurred to me.

Basically, he implied that he'd go for a more contemporary vocal style, something that's more fashionable now... Which is fine, but when you think about it, Prog Metal in itself hasn't been fashionable for a long time. Heck, even when DT started out, it wasn't at the top of its popularity of anything. And this has all been said before. But here's the issue: He singled out JLB. Okay, so back then, they wanted a certain style, a certain sound, and they combined elements from bands they loved, they combined Metallica's heaviness, Iron Maiden's epicness, Rush's complex structures and time signatures, etc. And all this resonated in their sound, including their vocalists. Even before JLB, Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici were both softer vocalists, whose style in Dream Theater could be compared to people like Geddy Lee, John Arch or (then) Geoff Tate. So when JLB came along, yes, while he had monstrously higher range than the previous guys, and the power and intensity enough to blow you away, he still had the softer timbre and more Rush like quality.
What's my point? My point is that at the time, even if JLB's vocal style wasn't that far removed from Glam Metal, Glam was already on its way out, and DT's style wasn't that anyway so it wasn't like they were planning to get mainstream success by riding the coat tails of Motley Crue or Dokken. All they were trying to do was stay true to themselves and the kind of musical vision they had in mind.
But now, (and when I say now, I mean at the time of the interview) he said they'd go for a more fashionable voice, and wouldn't hire JLB. Again, that's fine, many years had passed, and MP clearly is a different person now than he was, and opinions change, etc. But again, the problem was that he singled out JLB. He could've said, "We'd probably also end up with two guitarists instead of keyboards," or "We probably wouldn't be playing Prog, but rather something heavier and more straight forward". He basically said, "That's our vocalist, and if we were looking for a new vocalist now, we wouldn't hire him," which is almost like saying, "We're only keeping him around because that's just what everyone is used to by now and that's the range our catalog is in." And that bothers me not only because it's disrespectful to JLB, but because it really seems like he'd given it some thought, in that particular context.

Just felt like sharing.
A couple things:

1. Keep in mind, when MP says those things, they're coming from a guy who's listened to recordings of every single performance. I have also heard a lot of them, and to be honest many bootlegs of DT's performances do not portray James in a very flattering way (and from that era, I would even change many to "most")
2. I've never heard MP say he wanted a new vocalist so DT could be heavier. I always have heard him say that he thought DT would have been better with more of a songwriter type singer, like H. from Marillion. This leads me to believe that maybe MP thought DT could have morphed into something more like Neal Morse or Flying Colors - still prog but with much more potential for "singles".
3. Yes, all that is pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who insisted his label forced him to be more commercial two album before James got his ultimatum. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 07:58:06 AM
TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
Not sure whether you are aware of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 28, 2014, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 07:58:06 AM
TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
Not sure whether you are aware of this.
MP must have had a midlife crisis. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 08:20:41 AM
In James he definitely had no faith, no more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 09:06:03 AM
A couple things:

1. Keep in mind, when MP says those things, they're coming from a guy who's listened to recordings of every single performance. I have also heard a lot of them, and to be honest many bootlegs of DT's performances do not portray James in a very flattering way (and from that era, I would even change many to "most")
2. I've never heard MP say he wanted a new vocalist so DT could be heavier. I always have heard him say that he thought DT would have been better with more of a songwriter type singer, like H. from Marillion. This leads me to believe that maybe MP thought DT could have morphed into something more like Neal Morse or Flying Colors - still prog but with much more potential for "singles".
3. Yes, all that is pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who insisted his label forced him to be more commercial two album before James got his ultimatum.
[/quote]

1. That's one thing I'm a bit unclear about. When he said that, which era was it? I know James got the ultimatum a short time after the Six Degrees album came out, correct? But MP made that comment about hiring someone else, sometime later, right? ... And Images and words was recorded at Beartracks, right?

Otherwise, yes, I understand that JLB may not have been at his best around that era, but it's still a very obtuse hypothetical comment. I mean, IF they were looking for a new vocalist then, and they wouldn't hire JLB, that's assuming JLB wasn't already in the band, and then we could say, well, who knows how his own career would have evolved. Maybe if JLB had never joined DT, he would've put together his own band, become successful enough to be noticed, and developed into a song writer, and never even gotten food poisoning for that matter. How did something like that even come up, unless it was something that was consistently on MP's mind at the time? And to be dwelling on how they'd hire someone else, and then proceeding to just say it at an interview, seems almost intentionally hurtful and disrespectful.

2. Well, he didn't say so that DT could be heavier, I'm just interpolating from the fact that A. In his more recent times with DT, he seemed to have tried to push the band into a heavier direction. And B. heavier style, and heavier vocals are more popular in the grand scheme of Hard Rock/Metal these days. Aside from the most European of Power Metal bands, I don't hear many who still front a melodic, high register male vocalist.

Also, this may be a little biased, since I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of the vast majority of MP's vocal contributions to DT, so I understand if it seems like I'm unjustly picking on MP, but honestly, I was listening to Score yesterday, and I mean, really listening to it, more analytically than usual, and I just couldn't help but notice all the times MP added his backup vocals where they really weren't needed or were a detriment. Like, there were parts where I think it would've been cool to hear JLB just do his thing, such as the whole "Trapped Inside this Octavarium" part, but MP is there saying it along with JLB in his typical balls and chunk heavy style, (as opposed to whispering the way it was on the album itself) as if he thought JLB wasn't enough to give that part justice.
Also, every time he did harmonies with JLB, where it's a long extended vowel, such as during one part of Raise The Knife, or The Answer Lies Within, I think it was, the "You're gonna shine" section, and this may be unintentional, but every time, MP drags his notes just that little bit longer than JLB, just milking it, as if upstaging JLB in a way, and I really think those little moments did a disservice to the performance. Not significant, mind you, but a disservice non the less. And again, maybe I'm just picking on him and overanalyzing it, but upon a closer analysis, that's honestly my only gripe with how Score sounds. But honestly, I wasn't even overanalyzing MP's parts on purpose, I just wanted to analyze the concert's sound overall. I just noticed MP doing that, it just stood out to me, like boom, there he is, all in your face with his backup vocals. So I started keeping an ear out for it. They might add an extra layer, but that's only good when it doesn't overstay its welcome, and to me, it did.

But anyway, this little rant aside, my point is that, to me, it honestly felt like MP was attempting to "Heavy Up" certain vocal parts with his backups, as if he thought that would make them better, so that was also a part of why I kind of interpolated him saying they'd hire someone else as meaning someone heavier. But yes, I could be wrong.

Either way, the more time passes, the happier I am with the band's current lineup.

And again, I'm not trying to rag on MP, I love MP, and I think overall he's an awesome guy and an awesome drummer, but a drummer is what he should have stayed. And if it seems like I'm picking on him, then it purely comes from me as a singer being devensive over JLB as a vocalist, who I think MP undermined in more ways than one over his latter years with DT.

Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 07:58:06 AM
TGP, MP made an infamous interview back in the day where he said he would rather choose a singer like Mike Patton if he had had the choice at the time of the interview.
Not sure whether you are aware of this.

No, I wasn't aware of that specifically. I'm not really familiar with Faith No More, so can you please elaborate on the point you're trying to make? Like, I don't know what Patton's vocal style is like, and I'm at work right now (yes yes, slacking off), so I can't listen to it, so I'm kind of unsure whether that supports of disproves my theory of it being someone heavier and more fashionable.

Also, can you imagine having two Mikes, both being MP, in the band?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 09:30:50 AM
Whaaat, you don't know Mike Patton of Faith No More? That should be your first order of business, to catch up on that band. They don't have a lot of albums, but they're nothing short of brilliant.

Style-wise, Mike Patton is incredibly wide-ranged. He has a great, full-bodied singing voice, and at the same time can put a lot of edge into his vocals.
MP's choice of Mike Patton clearly indicated that he wanted DT to be more modern in its vocals, vs JLB who is more 80s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on October 28, 2014, 09:34:44 AM
DT trying to do some Mr. Bungle style music would have been interesting to see
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 28, 2014, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.

 My wife cannot stand DT because of JLB´s vocals. She says that "they could be the greatest band on earth if they had someone like Bruce Dickinson singing with them".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 09:58:21 AM
I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.
But even if JLB's voice isn't that accessible, I still don't understand how people can actually find it LESS accessible than someone like Ozzy Osbourne or Robert Plant.
And heck, even Bruce Dickinson, he's got great range and great stage presence, but I wouldn't say he's got that good of a singing voice. There's nothing offputting about it, but I wouldn't say it's a very good singing voice. It gets the job done, and by now, it's quite iconic, but I can't imagine Bruce Dickinson singing Another Day or Metropolis, and doing more justice to it than JLB.

But anyway, all of that aside, the point is, MP's comment was completely uncalled for. JLB's voice may not be the most instantly accessible, but he's still a master of his craft, and MP was way off base saying what he said.

EDIT: To add onto that: Put it this way, look at Geddy Lee. His voice is far from what I'd say accessible, more so than JLB, and although yes, back in the 70s, those kinds of vocals were more fashionable, the point I'm trying to make is that later on in their career, you wouldn't hear Alex Lifeson say, "Well, if I was hiring a new vocalist these days, I probably wouldn't pick Geddy, I'd pick someone like Greg Lake," (just as an example). You just wouldn't hear him say that. Why? Because they were band mates for many years, they were friends and comrades, and with MP having said that, it really seems like to him, that relationship ended at Band mate, even though according to JP, they were all supposed to be like family, celebrating weddings and things like that together. I mean, Mike Portnoy was complaining that by the end of his days in DT a certain band member wouldn't even eat in the same room as them, and I'm not saying that necessarily had to be JLB, but if things had gotten to that point with them, maybe it had something to do with how insensitively blunt certain comments were.

So my question never did get clarified, when exactly did MP make that statement?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 09:58:21 AM
I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 12:16:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 09:58:21 AM
I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.

How's that, now?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 12:30:08 PM
Story time:

When I first bought Awake based on the recommendation of some friends online, I had to shelve it immediately. I couldn't stand the vocals at all.

Eventually I got around to listening to it more, and now it's a top 10 favorite album of mine, but I think that my anecdote sums up the issue with getting "modern" audiences into DT: even at his very tippy-top best, James is still a hurdle for people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 12:40:28 PM
Well, like I said, I think people should to suck it up, especially if they like the music itself. I wasn't crazy about him either. And it's not because he has a bad voice, it's just unconventional, and it does stand out. It's certainly not the typical voice you imagine when someone brings up Metal vocalists.
But I loved the music, so I essentially 'tolerated' JLB for the sheer sake of the music. That's how he grew on me. It only took a couple of weeks for his vocals to not bother me all that much, and in a couple of months, I loved them. Now, I wouldn't want DT any other way. It was just a matter of giving him an honest chance, instead of just hearing it for the first time and going, "Nope." I mean, heck, I could've done the same with Led Zeppelin, or Rush, I didn't even find their music all that amazing, certainly not nearly as good as DT's. But luckily, that was after I discovered DT, so I knew better than to judge a band by first impressions, and now, I "get" it, you know?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 28, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
Guy sings in a clear tone: "That sounds weird"

Other guy sings RORORORORORORORORO: "Awesome"

Not making judgements, I like a little RORORO myself from time to time, but that strikes me as amusing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on October 28, 2014, 12:56:58 PM
I can't understand so-called DT fans rejecting JLB. Think about this: one of the reasons DT is such an extrordinary band, is because they have a frontman capable to sing ANYTHING. Check how Iron Maiden's compositions suffer the lack of a good singer during the Blaze Bayley era. The kind of songs you can write is limited by the musicians' ability to play their instruments, and that includes the vocals. Almost everybody agrees that DT improved a lot after they recruit JLB, and in case you don't like FII, SC or BC&SL, is not because of him. Those records were the combined effort of a full band of five outstanding musicians. Many, MANY bands would sell their souls in order to be able to write records like those ones.

James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 12:58:33 PM
Some people just don't like his voice. I mean, I don't think they should change singers just because people don't like him, that would be silly.

But I also think it's kind of silly to insist that people should like him, because some people just won't, and that's fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 28, 2014, 01:03:35 PM
Yeah.  Lots of different reasons to like (or dislike) different bands.  No big deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 28, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
Guy sings in a clear tone: "That sounds weird"

Other guy sings RORORORORORORORORO: "Awesome"

Not making judgements, I like a little RORORO myself from time to time, but that strikes me as amusing.

I wasn't gonna say anything, because I find that fans of aggressive vocals tend to be very defensive of their Metalcorez and Death Metulz, but yeah, so much this. This was one of the first examples that came to mind, is all the guttural, screamo, roaring stuff that's gotten so popular. The problem, I think IS that it's a fairly generic style of vocals. I mean, I'm sure at first it was jarring and offputting, but once people got used to it, there wasn't too much more to it. There are guys who scream in low guttural, high (squawking as I call it), and a couple of variations here and there like what Russel Allen does, but for the most part there's not that much uniqueness to it. Whereas with clean vocals, every singer's specific tone is clear and evident, and JLB's happens to be a very unique one.

Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 12:58:33 PM
Some people just don't like his voice. I mean, I don't think they should change singers just because people don't like him, that would be silly.

But I also think it's kind of silly to insist that people should like him, because some people just won't, and that's fine.

Well, I'm taking my statements to a bit of an extreme just to emphasize my point, but yeah, I'm not saying people should like him. I'm just saying if they like the music, they should give him a fair chance to grow on them, instead of dismissing him right away. Like I said, from personal experience, my opinion made a complete 180 when it comes to JLB's vocals, so it's not like it's impossible for that to happen.

Quote from: JediKnight1969 on October 28, 2014, 12:56:58 PM
James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.

 :tup :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 12:16:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 09:58:21 AM
I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.

How's that, now?

I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.
I have been following DT since 1993 or thereabouts, and to this day, I think his singing is "meh". Yes, he can sing high, he can sing in time to weird time sigs, but frankly, that's about it. His diction is awful, and IMHO he has virtually no timbre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 02:21:27 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.

Ludicrous? Why? It happened to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on October 28, 2014, 02:50:34 PM
I got into DT around SFAM and some of my friends that had been listening to them were on their way out with their fandom.  One even ridiculed that I started liking them and talked about how jazz is where its at.  Essentially saying that he was a dumbass for even liking them in the first place but now he is so much more enlightened.  When pressed, they would say that DT used to be good but the singer was terrible.  It was so fucking fashionable to trash James. 

I've actually met a lot of people that were like that.  They thought they were such intelligent people because they not only liked this complex music but they were even better at picking it apart. 

Those people sucked. 

James does not and never did.  I never got the hate for him.  Like The Great Pretender said, he can do everything.  The one thing he lacks is the deeper more aggressive vocals but he more than makes up for that in with his soaring vocals, his light vocals, his own unique brand of aggressive vocals. 

Fortunately, I think it is becoming less fashionable to hate James.  I haven't talked to anybody in casual conversation that had anything negative to say about him.  It used to be that peoples distaste for his vocals was one of the first things people brought up. 

Maybe I just finally started hanging around cooler people
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 03:04:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 02:21:27 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.

Ludicrous? Why? It happened to me.

Ludicrous because your personal experience can hardly be used as an extrapolation to the general population. Even on this forum, most of the people who didn't like his singing from early on, settled on "it's an acquired taste". So, given that background, it is just exceedingly unlikely that the general population would suddenly fall in love with his singing, if a sizable percentage of the core fanbase already "got used" to him at best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on October 28, 2014, 02:50:34 PM
Fortunately, I think it is becoming less fashionable to hate James.  I haven't talked to anybody in casual conversation that had anything negative to say about him.  It used to be that peoples distaste for his vocals was one of the first things people brought up. 

The reason is actually fairly straightforward: DT have slowly moved away from the 80s-style singing of the early days, to a more metal-style singing. I think people being exposed to DT these days are more willing to write off the early stuff as "it was a different time".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on October 28, 2014, 03:18:56 PM
I'm not here to hate on JLB just to provide my perspective. I've always liked his voice but the problem is that he really struggled
live. About half the time I saw him he had a bad night. Some songs would be OK but others were not good at all. On studio work
he is great. I think he has been getting better in a live setting over the last 2 years though. Back in the Awake days he was
mighty.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 03:35:30 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 03:04:01 PM
Ludicrous because your personal experience can hardly be used as an extrapolation to the general population. Even on this forum, most of the people who didn't like his singing from early on, settled on "it's an acquired taste". So, given that background, it is just exceedingly unlikely that the general population would suddenly fall in love with his singing, if a sizable percentage of the core fanbase already "got used" to him at best.

Hey, there was a reason I said MIGHT become their favorite singer. Of course the other part of that is "might not," but there's still a good chance they'd grow to like him. I know plenty of people who enjoy his singing, whether he's their favorite, or in top 10, or top 20. But if people just completely dismiss him and never give him a chance, it's ultimately their loss, because he's not going anywhere, and they're only missing out on DT's awesome music. And James himself is unquestionably as much a master of his craft as anyone in DT. Yes, he's had a very long rough period, but heck, to say, "He didn't sound good live, I listened to the bootlegs" is the kind of a statement that obviously only a DT fan could say, and based on the officially released albums and live material, there was nothing that would indicate that he was struggling live (aside from maybe OIALT), so outsiders couldn't even properly make such a claim. He always had incredibly impressive range and employed a variety of techniques to boot.

But again, this is going on a completely far off tangent from my original point. Some people like JLB, some don't, some are too closed minded to give him a chance, whatever. Regardless of ANY of this, it was absolutely uncool, and mean spirited for Mike Portnoy to have said the things he did about James. Regardless of how honest, or how blunt he may be, it really doesn't take that much tact or common sense to know that things like that shouldn't be said, so the only way I can explain it is him being passive aggressive about JLB's place in the band. A burst of honesty completely disregarding how the person in question might feel, or worse, (and this is a wild conjecture on my part) an attempted bait to lure JLB to retaliate and get himself kicked out for an attitude problem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on October 28, 2014, 03:42:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 01:09:54 PM
I wasn't gonna say anything, because I find that fans of aggressive vocals tend to be very defensive of their Metalcorez and Death Metulz, but yeah, so much this. This was one of the first examples that came to mind, is all the guttural, screamo, roaring stuff that's gotten so popular. The problem, I think IS that it's a fairly generic style of vocals. I mean, I'm sure at first it was jarring and offputting, but once people got used to it, there wasn't too much more to it. There are guys who scream in low guttural, high (squawking as I call it), and a couple of variations here and there like what Russel Allen does, but for the most part there's not that much uniqueness to it. Whereas with clean vocals, every singer's specific tone is clear and evident, and JLB's happens to be a very unique one.

I disagree with the bolded. There is plenty of variety in harsh vocals. The first three examples that come to mind are Mikael Akerfeldt, Tommy Rogers, and Chuck Schuldiner. All three sound completely different from one another. To me, it seems that you are not quite familiar enough with these types of vocals to be able to distinguish the subleties. I find that growls have just as much variety in tone as cleans.

On topic, my first DT album was TOT. When I first listened to it, I loved the instrumental parts, but did not care for the vocals. It was not until I listened to Images and Awake that JLB clicked for me. He now ranks among my favorite singers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 03:56:42 PM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on October 28, 2014, 12:56:58 PM
James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.
Hmmm... not sure I would agree. Not sure I disagree, either.

The problem with LaBrie is, while he was almost hands-down "the best" in metal for a period of time, his window was pretty short. Had he been stellar for all of the 90s or something, or had his Winter Rose years been DT years, I could see the argument. But as it stands I'd say he had 2 albums and 1 tour as a true powerhouse singer. From there, he became more inconsistent and his range took a huge hit. He's done an admirable job over the last few years, so I have to give him props, but I'm not sure I could list him among "the best" - he would be an outlier, at most.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 04:08:15 PM
Quote from: Randaran on October 28, 2014, 03:42:32 PM
I disagree with the bolded. There is plenty of variety in harsh vocals. The first three examples that come to mind are Mikael Akerfeldt, Tommy Rogers, and Chuck Schuldiner. All three sound completely different from one another. To me, it seems that you are not quite familiar enough with these types of vocals to be able to distinguish the subleties. I find that growls have just as much variety in tone as cleans.
See? I was expecting someone to say this.  :lol

Yes, your examples all sound completely different from each other. The problem is that the vast majority of extreme Metal bands out there either sound like the first, or the second. Honestly, I've been to enough concerts where there would be like 4 opening acts, and they all had aggressive vocals, and they all sound pretty much exactly like Tommy Rogers.
Obviously there will be subtle differences in timbre or pitch that reflect the given person's voice, but the key word there is subtle, and very easy to miss. Whereas with clean vocalists, I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 pairs of bands whose vocalists are similar enough to confuse for one another.
Look, it's just simple biology. People speak in clean voices, and the voice is the biggest key factor in identifying someone you can't see, so we're naturally more inclined to pick up on the differences in a clean voice than an aggressive one. And you're right, maybe if I listened to like 10+ different aggressive bands on a regular basis, I'd be able to tell the subtle differences between all of them, but there's not nearly that much effort that's required to differentiate between clean singers in most cases.
And let's face it, with JLB in particular, there's nobody among known established rock or metal bands who sounds anywhere nearly like him. And I know this is a ciché, but in his case, it really is both a blessing and a curse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.

Yes, but like I said, if you listen to two different clean vocalists, even if they have a very similar range, more often than not, you'll hear a clear difference between the two. The sheer fact that at first, it's difficult to tell the difference between growls says a lot about how much more subtle these differences are. And yes, there are certain clean vocalists who have more of a generic tone, and a few of them might be easier to confuse for one another. Quite frankly, I think that's also the case for operatic female vocals. You really have to listen to a lot of them to differentiate. But it's very easy on a first listen to hear the difference between Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 04:36:44 PM
Have you considered that the reason it's easier for you to differentiate Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson as opposed to operatic females or harsh vocalists is simply because that's what you're used to? Everyone starts out listening to clean vocals, pretty much, so they've already got a head start in that regard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 28, 2014, 05:08:52 PM
I don't think it should come as a surprise that people both have more expressive power, and also the ability to discern differences in, the main means of their communication.
People can tell over the phone whether a person is smiling or not. Growls can differ for sure, but they simply can't compete with an organ that evolved for thousands of years for the purpose of being expressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on October 28, 2014, 05:10:29 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.

Yes, but like I said, if you listen to two different clean vocalists, even if they have a very similar range, more often than not, you'll hear a clear difference between the two. The sheer fact that at first, it's difficult to tell the difference between growls says a lot about how much more subtle these differences are. And yes, there are certain clean vocalists who have more of a generic tone, and a few of them might be easier to confuse for one another. Quite frankly, I think that's also the case for operatic female vocals. You really have to listen to a lot of them to differentiate. But it's very easy on a first listen to hear the difference between Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson.
This is a very closed minded way to think of things. If you listened to more operatic female styles or more growled vocals you'd be able to familiarize yourself with the techniques and nuances of these styles. Frankly if you can't tel the difference, you're not listening hard enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 28, 2014, 05:50:01 PM
If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 28, 2014, 05:56:13 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 28, 2014, 05:50:01 PM
If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.

I agree, actually.   (:omg:)  His voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I like his work on The Real Thing (album).  But otherwise, he doesn't impress me, and I find both his voice and personality to be pretty grating.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 28, 2014, 06:39:53 PM
Ah Jesus. Fine, whatever, there are as many differences in growls as there are in clean styles. This is why I didn't want to bring up aggressive vocals in the first place. How's about them controversial opinions on Dream Theater?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 28, 2014, 07:33:30 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 04:36:44 PM
Have you considered that the reason it's easier for you to differentiate Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson as opposed to operatic females or harsh vocalists is simply because that's what you're used to? Everyone starts out listening to clean vocals, pretty much, so they've already got a head start in that regard.
Yeah, and sometimes your recognition of clean vocalists varies by how much of the genre in question you've heard. My mom basically can't tell the difference between Russell Allen, Jorn Lande and Mats Leven; I'm sure some people can't tell the difference between Keepers era Kiske and Bruce Dickinson. If I didn't know Dio's discog so well, even I would swear that Nils Patrik Johansson of Astral Doors is Dio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on October 28, 2014, 08:33:16 PM
One time I was playing Scenes in the car with my mom and on the song One Last Time she asks: "Is this Judas Priest?".

If you're not familiar with something you're not going to be able to differentiate it or pick out what makes it unique, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people make generalizations about something they aren't familiar with, this happens with all kinds of music. And for us on a prog metal band's forum, I'm sure many here have experienced that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 08:37:55 PM
Yeah. I've had people tell me DT sounds like Dragonforce. And obviously to me they sound nothing alike, but I guess someone who doesn't listen to that kind of music just hears "high range singer + metal sounding guitars" and thinks Dragonforce. Alas.

DF is cool tho.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on October 28, 2014, 09:05:31 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 08:37:55 PM
Yeah. I've had people tell me DT sounds like Dragonforce.
Someone told me that once. That's where I drew the Lines in the Sand. I couldn't have them Burning My Soul anymore. I needed to Take Away My Pain. Overpopulation is a problem anyway in this New Millennium. I said "It's the fault of You Not Me," and there was no time for a Trial of Tears or even the begging of "Just Let Me Breathe." They are now working in Hell's Kitchen. Anna Lee.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 09:07:16 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 28, 2014, 08:37:55 PM
DF is cool tho.

I was kinda nonplussed though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 28, 2014, 10:04:58 PM
For what it's worth, I didn't like JLB at first as well, but not because his voice was bad. I just found it too "light". At the time when I first heard them I was heavily into 80s-90s heavy, death and thrash metal so anything that wasn't aggressive was not up my alley. But eventually after I listened to some more and my musical tastes started to expand, JLB became my favourite singer and I just love his voice. To this day, he remains my favourite, even if he's a far cry from where he used to be in the early-mid 90s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on October 28, 2014, 10:53:36 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 28, 2014, 05:56:13 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 28, 2014, 05:50:01 PM
If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.

I agree, actually.   (:omg:)  His voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I like his work on The Real Thing (album).  But otherwise, he doesn't impress me, and I find both his voice and personality to be pretty grating.

His album vocals can be brilliant about 70% of the time.  The rest of the time he tries to hard to be weird and edgy.  In concert, he rarely sings the way he does on albums and at times will just sing a bunch of jibberish or growl incessantly.  He is one of the most inconsistent performers that comes to mind. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 28, 2014, 11:25:36 PM
It's very uncool to badmouth a bandmate when you are still in the same band.

I guess that just what The Great Pretender is saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 29, 2014, 04:52:50 AM
Speaking of "clean vocals", the thing I notice about James is that his voice is EXTREMELY clean. One reason he's a hurdle is because his voice has very little of what you'd call a rock and roll edge.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 29, 2014, 05:47:46 AM
Very 80's in his smoothness Skeever.  The early 90's were the antithesis of that.  I myself like a singer that can meld both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on October 29, 2014, 05:47:46 AM
Very 80's in his smoothness Skeever.  The early 90's were the antithesis of that.  I myself like a singer that can meld both.

I think he can meld both just fine. His vocals really aren't that clean. They can be, but on most DT albums, he'd kept it pretty 50/50 between clean and gritty vocals. But his voice is very soft, and yeah, the early 90's, with the proliferation of Grunge, what became popular wasn't about vocal technique, or hitting the proper notes, they were more about the raw emotion you put into it. It was very similar to when Punk Rock first emerged and "killed" Heavy Metal in the 70s, before its glorious revival.
And while like I said, I think JLB is plenty gritty, it just wasn't gritty enough.
But again, given what was popular at the time, you can't just blame DT's lack of success on him alone. Skillful musicianship aside, Dream Theater has always had more melodic tendencies, that were influenced by prog rock, or sometimes even more directly by classical music, that, and a lot of their songs were very major and had a lighter, happier sound to them, and that was just not what was popular in the early 90s in the world of Hard Rock and Metal. Between Grunge and Nu Metal, it was all about anger, angst, and like I said, more emphasis on raw emotion than on skillfull musicianship.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 29, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 07:41:13 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on October 29, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 29, 2014, 08:14:12 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on October 28, 2014, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: Skeever on October 28, 2014, 09:36:22 AM
Unfortunately, I can see where MP was coming from. I've tried to introduce DT to plenty of people in the past, and each time I've found myself explaining away the vocals. Seems like James' vocals are a big hurdle for a lot of people, especially people like me who missed the 80's.

 My wife cannot stand DT because of JLB´s vocals. She says that "they could be the greatest band on earth if they had someone like Bruce Dickinson singing with them".


Except that Bruce's voice is completely fucked now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 29, 2014, 08:52:02 AM
 Nah...it´s worse than it was before, of course, but I wouldn´t say it´s fucked.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 29, 2014, 09:00:43 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 07:41:13 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on October 29, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.

I am no fan of the agressive vocals as you state.  I'm just saying James is not my favorite style of singer anymore.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in DT or that he less than others who think someone else should sing in DT.  I am not one of those guys.

All I am saying is that I like other styles of singing.  Hell DT is still top 5 band of all time for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 29, 2014, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 07:41:13 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on October 29, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Not at the level of some singers.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have James any other way but there are other singers I admire more.

What not at the level of other singers? His grit? Yeah, of course not. Not as much as some, but still way more than others. He's a relatively well rounded vocalist, and given his background, being associated with Glam Metal roots, he's got way more aggression and grit than most of those guys. And again, no offense to them, I love me some Warrant or Dokken once in a while, but I can't imagine those guys could do justice to a song like The Mirror or ITNOG, whereas James has just enough Aggression in his voice for those songs. And yeah, I think DT may have overstepped his comfort zone with songs like A Nightmare To Remember and Honor Thy Father, but hey, as much as I like those songs, I'd say they didn't NEED to go that heavy. I mean, I'm not saying DT should limit themselves in terms of how heavy they want to make their music, and I like those songs, but listening to Scenes From A Memory, I never for a second thought, "Man, this is good, but if only they could do something super dark and heavy with some blast beats, then I'll be satisfied!"

On the other hand, honestly, considering that DT has always been ones to defy convention, I personally don't mind at all if they want to go against the "typical" low and heavy music accompanied by aggressive vocals thing. I mean, Heavy Metal in itself started out by having the musicians downtune their instruments to whole new lows, meanwhile having vocalists in a higher register. So frankly, I have no problem with DT chugging away on the heavier riffs, with JLB singing high over top of that, like in The Glass Prison, for example.

Put me in the camp that doesn't care about "grit".  One of the things I love about Dream Theater is that they blend the smooth melodic vocals with the gritty, metal guitars.   I get it, the grit is a skill like anything else, but I think the smoothness is what separates JLB apart.   I also think it is what separates what we think of as the "greatest" metal singers of all time from the wanna-bes (though as much as I love JLB, I don't consider him to be among the 'greatest metal singers of all time'). 

I'm an MP fan boy, so the band is not the same for me after his leaving, but in terms of JUST sound, I think JLB is as integral to why I like DT as MP, and it would have to be a perfect fit for me to continue listening to DT in the same way if JLB was to be replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 09:23:21 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on October 29, 2014, 09:00:43 AM
I am no fan of the agressive vocals as you state.  I'm just saying James is not my favorite style of singer anymore.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in DT or that he less than others who think someone else should sing in DT.  I am not one of those guys.

All I am saying is that I like other styles of singing.  Hell DT is still top 5 band of all time for me.

No, that's fine. If you're not into his style, I understand, I was just wondering what you meant he's not at the level of some singers. In terms of what, I mean.

Quote from: Stadler on October 29, 2014, 09:13:57 AM
Put me in the camp that doesn't care about "grit".  One of the things I love about Dream Theater is that they blend the smooth melodic vocals with the gritty, metal guitars.   I get it, the grit is a skill like anything else, but I think the smoothness is what separates JLB apart.   I also think it is what separates what we think of as the "greatest" metal singers of all time from the wanna-bes (though as much as I love JLB, I don't consider him to be among the 'greatest metal singers of all time'). 

But what makes a great metal singer for you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 29, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
As someone who has over the past year or so had my tastes, for the most part, move away from aggressive music, I have to say that James is quite gritty in my opinion. On Images and Words he sings mostly clean, but on most other albums it's some combination, with Dream Theater being mostly gritty. And it's fine with me that he uses it; it works well for the emotion of the music (except, in my opinion, he uses grit too much on DT12). I just wanted to point out that if you come from a perspective of listening more to singers like Jon Anderson and Neal Morse than from a perspective of listening to Russell Allen and Ronnie James Dio, I don't see how you could possibly say that James LaBrie doesn't use much grit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 29, 2014, 11:03:17 AM
As someone who has over the past year or so had my tastes, for the most part, move away from aggressive music, I have to say that James is quite gritty in my opinion. On Images and Words he sings mostly clean, but on most other albums it's some combination, with Dream Theater being mostly gritty. And it's fine with me that he uses it; it works well for the emotion of the music (except, in my opinion, he uses grit too much on DT12). I just wanted to point out that if you come from a perspective of listening more to singers like Jon Anderson and Neal Morse than from a perspective of listening to Russell Allen and Ronnie James Dio, I don't see how you could possibly say that James LaBrie doesn't use much grit.

Compeltely agreed. Funny thing is, even with Images and Words, whenever he'd perform the songs live back in those days, he'd sing them with a LOT of grit. I mean, I didn't mind it, he was still hitting the notes, and it was damn awesome, but it was very prevalent and noticeable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 29, 2014, 12:33:24 PM
He's gotten better over the years at giving his voice an edge, but at times it still ventures more into "screeching" than actual grit. That whole ending of Octavarium is weird, at least vocally. He gets very close to sounding like a hysterical woman.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 12:56:17 PM
Yeah, but that's the only time I've ever heard him do that, really.
When I'm talking grit, I'm talking stuff like the verses of As I Am or Constant Motion. That's sure as hell not screeching.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 29, 2014, 02:37:23 PM
Live he goes into screeching quite a bit too.

Which is fine. But, shmeg's point is, and I agree, the top metal singers don't need to do that. They have grit in the high range without screeching.

My biggest issue with his singing has always been his vibrato though. When he was young he could pull off the wide vibrato, but for the last ten years or so it sounds like a violent yanking of a whammy bar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 03:26:54 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 29, 2014, 02:37:23 PM
Live he goes into screeching quite a bit too.

Which is fine. But, shmeg's point is, and I agree, the top metal singers don't need to do that. They have grit in the high range without screeching.

Like who though? I can think of maybe a couple of Metal singers who still have/had the kind of range LaBrie does at his age, and even at their peak most couldn't touch LaBrie's range when he was in top form back circa 1992.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 29, 2014, 06:34:43 PM
One of my pet peeves with prog metal in general is the smoothness the singers perform with. Tons of prog metal bands with operatic vocalists that can hit all the notes, but who are also lacking any type of edge.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 29, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
Why is "smoothness" a bad thing, though? I would consider that a virtue in singers.

I tend to not be a huge fan of prog metal singers that fit into the stereotype of the power metal vocalist. Or anyone who sounds like they learned to sing by trying to copy Rob Halford. I just don't find those types of delivery to sound genuine or emotional. But I would not characterize that as smoothness; in fact I would say that the unrelenting high-pitched aggressive male vocal style is a type of harshness. At least to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 29, 2014, 10:36:27 PM
Didn't AWAKE already put to rest the case that JLB can't do aggressive vocals? Those vocals not aggressive enough?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 29, 2014, 10:36:27 PM
Didn't AWAKE already put to rest the case that JLB can't do aggressive vocals? Those vocals not aggressive enough?
Apparently not.  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.
I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on October 30, 2014, 11:39:13 AM
I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on October 30, 2014, 12:04:37 PM
Quote from: lithium112 on October 30, 2014, 11:39:13 AM
I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.
Scarred was amazing, imho.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2014, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: lithium112 on October 30, 2014, 11:39:13 AM
I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.
Nah, two of the best songs on the show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 30, 2014, 12:33:12 PM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.
I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 12:44:27 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 30, 2014, 12:33:12 PM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.
I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.
Or that it was an ill-advised choice from his personal point of view. No need to get caught up in petty semantics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on October 30, 2014, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2014, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: lithium112 on October 30, 2014, 11:39:13 AM
I liked their rendition of SDV but I thought the show could've done without LSoaD and Scarred. Those songs dragged a bit for me both watching them live on tour and in the DVD.
Nah, two of the best songs on the show.
*shrug* I dunno maybe they haven't clicked for met yet, but I felt like the general crowd's energy level dipped during those songs when I saw them live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 30, 2014, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 09:23:21 AM

But what makes a great metal singer for you?

Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.   I know what I want to say, I don't know how to articulate it:  I don't like one dimensional singers much (there are exceptions:  Brian Johnson, Lemmy), and I do like melody.  So for me the best metal singers can bring the dark and bring the light, meaning, sing the softer parts and yet deliver the hammer when it needs to be delivered (Children of the Sea is a great example, as is The Last In Line).   But more important, metal can be one dimensional in it's sound and relentlessness, so to me, the nuance comes from the singer more often than not, so they have to bring the balance to the equation.  Hallowed Be Thy Name is an example here, as is Rime of the Ancient Mariner).   You can't just be a screamer, which is why I don't like many of the pure metal singers.  I think that's why Ozzy has had the career he has had.  He doesn't have a metal voice at all, but he brings nice contrast to the music, though he does deliver the balance (his best work in that regard is on Sabotage). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tick on October 30, 2014, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 30, 2014, 12:33:12 PM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on October 30, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.
I'm not a fan of the song by a long shot, I actually never once listened to SDV in its entirety before BTFW (all the samples were tedious), but this version is amazingly captivating. When the drums enter with the high vocals...wow. The visuals are also great and work well with the atmosphere of the song.
I enjoyed it but I would have preferred something in its place.

That doesn't make it an ill-advised choice; it just means you personally didn't care for it.
Well...umm...yeah!  Obviously its my... "controversial OPINION" Isn't that the idea of this thread?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on October 30, 2014, 07:21:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 29, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
with Images and Words, whenever he'd perform the songs live back in those days, he'd sing them with a LOT of grit. I mean, I didn't mind it, he was still hitting the notes, and it was damn awesome, but it was very prevalent and noticeable.

Yeah! I love James' performances during the I&W tour! They're not all flawless, but some of them are damn close. I sometimes imagine an alternate I&W where James vocals are more like the way he delivered during the tour or even similar to the Awake sessions. But then I've violated the sanctity of the sacred I&W and it might as well be blasphemas to consider changing stuff on that album now.  :lol


Quote from: Tick on October 30, 2014, 10:25:49 AM
Space Dye Vest was an ill advised set list choice and wasted precious time better served by another song.

Ya know, I'd almost think this before seeing it so I get where you're coming from. But I'd have to disagree when comparing with my own experience. Even though SDV is honestly one of the last songs I'd pick for a setlist if I brought all my pre-conceptiuons about the song into it. But when I saw it on the DVD it had a very unique mood to it and honestly, after playing that chunk of Awake was probably the most perfect ways they could have delivered that song. And the build up for the outro was certainly a breath of fresh air from the original aswell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 30, 2014, 11:36:23 PM
Quote from: Stadler on October 30, 2014, 04:08:31 PM
Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.
Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.

Good points all around though, but personally, I honestly don't see why JLB wouldn't fit into that criteria. I mean, maybe not at the level of the three you mentioned, but those guys are/were the absolute masters, and even guys like Ozzy can't be held to their standards.

For me personally, I tend to make a very clear distinction between singer and front man. Bruce Dickinson to me, first and foremost, the absolute greatest Metal front man. The kind of energy he brings to a show is unparalleled. And there are only a handful of guys who have ever come close. One of which being Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. If you watch any of their concert footage you will see that Dee is almost as good as Bruce Dickinson in terms of getting the audience energy up, interacting with them, and just captivating the whole room with his energy and stage presence.

When it comes to the term 'singer' however, for me, that's entirely about how crafter the individual is. The range, the technique, etc. And honestly, I can't think of a single metal singer who's maintained, or even regained their range into their 50s the way JLB has. That's really the main reason I consider him one of Metal's greats. It takes a certain kind of discipline to take care of one's voice and maintain one's range so well. Rob Halford did a pretty great job of maintaining his voice too. Honestly, he'd be my number one pick as the best Metal singer, just for the sheer fact that he can still hit quite a few of those really high parts at Judas Priest shows. Or at least he could last I heard him, that might not be the case anymore, I don't know.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on October 30, 2014, 07:21:32 PM
Yeah! I love James' performances during the I&W tour! They're not all flawless, but some of them are damn close. I sometimes imagine an alternate I&W where James vocals are more like the way he delivered during the tour or even similar to the Awake sessions. But then I've violated the sanctity of the sacred I&W and it might as well be blasphemas to consider changing stuff on that album now.  :lol

Yeah, I never got that myself. I was always up for the idea of re-recording the drums, and remixing the album. I don't think it's all that untouchable. If people don't like it, they'd still have the original, no one's gonna take it away from them. But hearing songs in different mixes always brings out certain nuances that couldn't be heard before. It's half the reason I listen to live albums at all.

And hey, we'll always have Live at the Marquee and Live in Tokyo to hear James' live awesomeness from those days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 31, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
You know, it's not that I don't want to be more active in this discussion, but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day. I will say that Dickinson is, for me, the best metal frontman. Hands down. Not sure why he's unapproachable though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 30, 2014, 11:36:23 PM
Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.

Good points all around though, but personally, I honestly don't see why JLB wouldn't fit into that criteria. I mean, maybe not at the level of the three you mentioned, but those guys are/were the absolute masters, and even guys like Ozzy can't be held to their standards.

Well, I understand your points and I agree to an extent, but it depends on what we're talking about; we are talking about great metal singers.   I don't consider JLB a metal singer, and if you want someone else in this category, I'd give you Ian Gillan.  Ian Gillan is AMAZING, and for him to sound as good as he does today is miraculous (though I don't think anyone would say he sounds THE SAME as he did in '69), but he isn't Rob Halford either.  This will sound odd, but I LOVE Gillan, I LOVE Sabbath, and I LOVE Born Again (one of my favorite Sabbath albums), but I don't really think it is a great representation of Gillan.  He does well, but that is clearly not his forte. 

I do think that there is one criterion that should carry over, and that is the furtherance of the melody line in a way that adds something to the piece as opposed to just "doubling the lead instrument" (which a lot of singers do).   I'm thinking of "This Is The Life" (and there are other examples of this as well) where JLB doubles his OWN part; I think that is inspired, and I think that not every singer could do that and have it sound that good.  BIG Paul Stanley fan (I mean BIG) but he couldn't do that as effectively.  He just doesn't have the voice for it (though Gillan could). 

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For me personally, I tend to make a very clear distinction between singer and front man. Bruce Dickinson to me, first and foremost, the absolute greatest Metal front man. The kind of energy he brings to a show is unparalleled. And there are only a handful of guys who have ever come close. One of which being Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. If you watch any of their concert footage you will see that Dee is almost as good as Bruce Dickinson in terms of getting the audience energy up, interacting with them, and just captivating the whole room with his energy and stage presence.

Another interesting point, and not to sound like a kiss-ass, but I tried to account for that in my post.  I DON'T actually think Dio is a great frontman, and Halford is in-between for me.  I think Dickinson is the best metal frontman as well, but not the other two, and I tried to limit it to just singing.  And by the way, nice call with Dee Snider; I LOVE Dee, and I always cite Twisted Sister as one of those bands that really IS a guilty pleasure.  God, I wish they would not be so cartoony sometimes; You Can't Stop Rock and Roll is an UNBELIEVEABLE metal album, but I can never shake that stupid f-ing picture of Dee with a turkey bone in his hand...  embarrassing...

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When it comes to the term 'singer' however, for me, that's entirely about how crafter the individual is. The range, the technique, etc. And honestly, I can't think of a single metal singer who's maintained, or even regained their range into their 50s the way JLB has. That's really the main reason I consider him one of Metal's greats. It takes a certain kind of discipline to take care of one's voice and maintain one's range so well. Rob Halford did a pretty great job of maintaining his voice too. Honestly, he'd be my number one pick as the best Metal singer, just for the sheer fact that he can still hit quite a few of those really high parts at Judas Priest shows. Or at least he could last I heard him, that might not be the case anymore, I don't know.

See, that's interesting, because I agree with all of it except the "metal" designation, and if I'm being honest, I'm not sure why.  They do have metal in their catalogue, and if you look at the cover series (both the Ytsejam album sets and the one release that is just songs) JLB can sing almost ANYBODY to an amazing degree (who else could credibly cover Dickinson, Dio, Ozzy, Hetfield, Waters, Gilmour, Gillan, Mercury, Anderson, Perry, Plant, Walsh, and Daltrey... c'mon.  Dio could barely cover the Ozzy stuff; not because he didn't have the range, but because his voice is so singular). 

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Yeah, I never got that myself. I was always up for the idea of re-recording the drums, and remixing the album. I don't think it's all that untouchable. If people don't like it, they'd still have the original, no one's gonna take it away from them. But hearing songs in different mixes always brings out certain nuances that couldn't be heard before. It's half the reason I listen to live albums at all.

Blasphemer!!!!  Hahaha, I kid; I&W is my favorite DT album, but to me, it is what it is, and the live albums are what they are.  I LIKE that they are different enough, and that the live renditions bring something new to the table.  I realize this is bordering on cliché now, but if they are going to re-record something, I would vote for WDADU.  I am so used to James' vocals as the sound of DT that I have a hard time getting into that album, even though I recognize that musically it isn't that far removed from I&W and Awake. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 31, 2014, 09:38:17 AM
Quote from: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Well, I understand your points and I agree to an extent, but it depends on what we're talking about; we are talking about great metal singers.   I don't consider JLB a metal singer, and if you want someone else in this category, I'd give you Ian Gillan.  Ian Gillan is AMAZING, and for him to sound as good as he does today is miraculous (though I don't think anyone would say he sounds THE SAME as he did in '69), but he isn't Rob Halford either.  This will sound odd, but I LOVE Gillan, I LOVE Sabbath, and I LOVE Born Again (one of my favorite Sabbath albums), but I don't really think it is a great representation of Gillan.  He does well, but that is clearly not his forte. 

I do think that there is one criterion that should carry over, and that is the furtherance of the melody line in a way that adds something to the piece as opposed to just "doubling the lead instrument" (which a lot of singers do).   I'm thinking of "This Is The Life" (and there are other examples of this as well) where JLB doubles his OWN part; I think that is inspired, and I think that not every singer could do that and have it sound that good.  BIG Paul Stanley fan (I mean BIG) but he couldn't do that as effectively.  He just doesn't have the voice for it (though Gillan could).

...


See, that's interesting, because I agree with all of it except the "metal" designation, and if I'm being honest, I'm not sure why.  They do have metal in their catalogue, and if you look at the cover series (both the Ytsejam album sets and the one release that is just songs) JLB can sing almost ANYBODY to an amazing degree (who else could credibly cover Dickinson, Dio, Ozzy, Hetfield, Waters, Gilmour, Gillan, Mercury, Anderson, Perry, Plant, Walsh, and Daltrey... c'mon.  Dio could barely cover the Ozzy stuff; not because he didn't have the range, but because his voice is so singular). 

Well, I think we're getting a little too much into semantic territory.

Because you're obviously giving JLB his props. He is an amazing singer. And Dream Theater as a band are unquestionably a Metal band, even if not for 100% of their songs. And JLB's solo stuff lately has been riding into some very heavy territories.

So I think the question is, do we make a distinction between being a "Metal singer" and being a "Singer in Metal"? I mean, maybe that's the issue. I would unquestionably say that JLB is one best singers in Metal.
But if we were to make a distinction between the two, then yes, I understand what you mean. Because when it comes to being a "Metal singer", I'd say there are guys out there who just have those typical Metal qualities that make them more suitable for the genre, such as Tim "The Ripper" Owens or Russell Allen. They both just have so much power that they absolutely destroy any song they sing (in a good way.) And if anything, I'd say they'd be the best two Metal Vocalists in my book, based on the overall evolution of metal, and their voices having a traditional quality suitable for, say, Judas Priest or Dio songs, but at the same time, still having enough aggression to be able to fit in with more modern sounds.

Of course, talking about this whole Metal singer business, I'm not even sure we can define what a good Metal singer is, because Metal itself has evolved into so many subgenres, that even for guys like Allen and Owens, it would be impossible to fit in with ALL of them. So maybe we need to start making a bit more of that distinction between Heavy Metal, Prog Metal, Thrash Metal, Symphonic Metal, etc.
JLB actually has a very conventionally fitting voice for genres like Glam Metal, Power Metal, and of course, Prog, everything that's more melodic and not as downtuned. Whereas, you have him try to do Thrash, then yes, I do think he just can't do justice to Master of Puppets at all. That's not a big deal, James Hetfield has the perfect voice for Thrash, but he wouldn't be able to pull off The Spirit Carries On to save his life. "Victoria's Real! Yeeeah!"

So I think that's why when it comes to judging JLB as a Metal singer, I don't really put convention into account, and judge him purely based on his ability, because it is very fitting in Prog and other, more melodic genres. If I was asked who's the best Prog Metal Singer? I would say James LaBrie, hands down, bar none.

Quote from: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 07:16:21 AM
Another interesting point, and not to sound like a kiss-ass, but I tried to account for that in my post.  I DON'T actually think Dio is a great frontman, and Halford is in-between for me.  I think Dickinson is the best metal frontman as well, but not the other two, and I tried to limit it to just singing.  And by the way, nice call with Dee Snider; I LOVE Dee, and I always cite Twisted Sister as one of those bands that really IS a guilty pleasure.  God, I wish they would not be so cartoony sometimes; You Can't Stop Rock and Roll is an UNBELIEVEABLE metal album, but I can never shake that stupid f-ing picture of Dee with a turkey bone in his hand...  embarrassing...
I agree completely with the first part about Dio and Halford.
As for Dee, I have no problem with the cartoony stuff, and I take no shame in my love of Twisted Sister.  :lol

Quote
Blasphemer!!!!  Hahaha, I kid; I&W is my favorite DT album, but to me, it is what it is, and the live albums are what they are.  I LIKE that they are different enough, and that the live renditions bring something new to the table.  I realize this is bordering on cliché now, but if they are going to re-record something, I would vote for WDADU.  I am so used to James' vocals as the sound of DT that I have a hard time getting into that album, even though I recognize that musically it isn't that far removed from I&W and Awake.

Yeah, but I think after WDAD Reunite, there's very little chance that it'll be rerecorded. But again, I have no problem with that, because there is a ton of great live material from that album with JLB to listen to. And even if someone isn't happy with how WDADRU turned out, the best of that album is available on other releases such as Live at the Marquee, Budokan, Score. Between them, they have A Fortune In Lies, The Killing Hand, Afterlife and Only A Matter of Time which are the best songs on the album. Ytsejam has been done well on multiple releases, and everything else on the album sounds just fine on the Reunite version, and even if JLB doesn't quite nail some parts, the three songs that are left aren't anything to write home about if you ask me, so I'm not really bothered by it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 02:21:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 31, 2014, 09:38:17 AM

Well, I think we're getting a little too much into semantic territory.

Because you're obviously giving JLB his props. He is an amazing singer. And Dream Theater as a band are unquestionably a Metal band, even if not for 100% of their songs. And JLB's solo stuff lately has been riding into some very heavy territories.

Yeah, you know, I totally forgot about his solo stuff.  I have one of his albums (it's very good, but not DT) and you're right about the vibe of his solo CDs.  I don't mean it to be semantic, as I'm not a big "label" guy to start with, but for me (and I recognize not everyone sees it this way) I consider DT to be one of my favorite bands, and in large part that is because of James' voice.    I LOVE the way he sings, and I have no problem with what I've heard of his live performances. 

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But if we were to make a distinction between the two, then yes, I understand what you mean. Because when it comes to being a "Metal singer", I'd say there are guys out there who just have those typical Metal qualities that make them more suitable for the genre, such as Tim "The Ripper" Owens or Russell Allen. They both just have so much power that they absolutely destroy any song they sing (in a good way.) And if anything, I'd say they'd be the best two Metal Vocalists in my book, based on the overall evolution of metal, and their voices having a traditional quality suitable for, say, Judas Priest or Dio songs, but at the same time, still having enough aggression to be able to fit in with more modern sounds.

I'd be curious what your criteria would be for "metal singer".  By the way, not to slag, but neither of those guys do anything for me.  Maybe it's context (Ripper taking over for Rob, Russell in what I consider to be fine cheese, AMob) but to me, yes, they have power, but they are not in the Dickinson/Halford/Dio league.  Not at all.   by the way, NOT a fan of some of the darker subgenres (even Thrash; I must prefer the recent, "singing" James Hetfield than the older version).

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Yeah, but I think after WDAD Reunite, there's very little chance that it'll be rerecorded. But again, I have no problem with that, because there is a ton of great live material from that album with JLB to listen to. And even if someone isn't happy with how WDADRU turned out, the best of that album is available on other releases such as Live at the Marquee, Budokan, Score. Between them, they have A Fortune In Lies, The Killing Hand, Afterlife and Only A Matter of Time which are the best songs on the album. Ytsejam has been done well on multiple releases, and everything else on the album sounds just fine on the Reunite version, and even if JLB doesn't quite nail some parts, the three songs that are left aren't anything to write home about if you ask me, so I'm not really bothered by it.

Oh, I know; and I enjoy all that.  Sort of more a wistful dream than any real hope.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 31, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 02:21:11 PM
Yeah, you know, I totally forgot about his solo stuff.  I have one of his albums (it's very good, but not DT) and you're right about the vibe of his solo CDs.  I don't mean it to be semantic, as I'm not a big "label" guy to start with, but for me (and I recognize not everyone sees it this way) I consider DT to be one of my favorite bands, and in large part that is because of James' voice.    I LOVE the way he sings, and I have no problem with what I've heard of his live performances.

Quote from: Stadler on October 31, 2014, 02:21:11 PM
I'd be curious what your criteria would be for "metal singer".  By the way, not to slag, but neither of those guys do anything for me.  Maybe it's context (Ripper taking over for Rob, Russell in what I consider to be fine cheese, AMob) but to me, yes, they have power, but they are not in the Dickinson/Halford/Dio league.  Not at all.   by the way, NOT a fan of some of the darker subgenres (even Thrash; I must prefer the recent, "singing" James Hetfield than the older version).

Honestly, it's not even like I'm a big fan of those guys. I can only enjoy Russell Allen in small doses, because of just how loud and gut-rippingly aggressive his style is, and same with Tim Owens, he just gives it so much intensity that in large quanitities it's a little much, from what I've heard. But I can't not recognize them for their sheer ability. Listen to Tim Owens' cover of Mr. Crowley. He absolutely slays that song and destroys Ozzy.

But basically, my criteria for a "metal singer" would be someone who has great range and power, being able to wail high notes to a point where it can be described as face melting, like a guitar solo. But also someone who can still pull off more aggressive stuff, not necessarily on the level of thrash, but someone who has grit. Rob Halford is probably the most perfect example, in my book. He's not the most aggressive of vocalists, but he can still sound badass, and when it comes to high notes, he's a face melter if I ever heard one. And just the same, I'd say James LaBrie excels at these things as well.

But again, this is using traditional heavy metal standards. And even though I'm not the biggest thrash fan either, it, and heavier styles, are a part of Metal, and that just can't be denied. And those genres definitely have a different set of standards as to what constitutes great vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 31, 2014, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 31, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 31, 2014, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 31, 2014, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 31, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?

What can I say? Overelaborating is fun.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 31, 2014, 04:59:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 31, 2014, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: rumborak on October 31, 2014, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 31, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
but I really can't keep up with the mini-essays that The Great Pretender is writing several times per day.

Seriously. The last page has what, 4 posts, and it's close to a new page?

What can I say? Overelaborating is fun.  :biggrin:


Well you're Overelaboring us to tears :hat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 31, 2014, 08:16:00 PM
TGP, you need a girlfriend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 31, 2014, 08:30:17 PM
Enjoying the discussion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on October 31, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 30, 2014, 11:36:23 PM
Quote from: Stadler on October 30, 2014, 04:08:31 PM
Great question; for me, the greatest metal singer of all time is Bruce Dickinson.  Rob Halford is a close second, and I would have to put Dio at third.
Yeah, but come on, those guys are/were the freakin' masters. You can't hold everyone to their standard, because the vast majority would NEVER measure up.
Well I mean, if you're going to hold JLB as this amazing singer who's up there with the best, then yea you have to make a case for him being at the standard of those masters. Because those are the best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 31, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
This is just a general controversial opinion, but I've never really cared for Bruce Dickinson. He's not bad, but I never got the appeal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on October 31, 2014, 10:56:30 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on October 31, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
This is just a general controversial opinion, but I've never really cared for Bruce Dickinson. He's not bad, but I never got the appeal.

heh, I wouldn't say I've never cared for him but I definitely don't think he is one of the greats.  I would put him up there by default because he is a great frontman and an excellent vocalist....theres just a lot more that are great frontman and even more excellent vocalists.  Bruce is at the bottom end of the excellent category. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 01, 2014, 12:36:23 AM
Quote from: Mosh on October 31, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
Well I mean, if you're going to hold JLB as this amazing singer who's up there with the best, then yea you have to make a case for him being at the standard of those masters. Because those are the best.
Hey, if you ask me, when it comes to JLB, he's easily on par with them.

Quote from: kingshmegland on October 31, 2014, 08:16:00 PM
TGP, you need a girlfriend.

I'm trying.  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 7enderbender on November 07, 2014, 12:39:38 PM
Ok, so here are a few thoughts. Not sure how "controversial" but his seemed like a good spot for it.

I consider myself an early adopter and DT fan since 89 or so. I absolutely loved (and still do) WDADU when it first came out back then. I picked up he second album the day it was released - love that one as well. And from there it went. Saw them together with maybe 100 folks at a small club on the Images and Words Tour. And from there it went. I look at all this through the eyes of a musician so I don't get hung up on "staffing issues" too much. All DT members over the years had something to contribute, without exception.

I'm currently reading the Lifting Shadows book. Interesting account of the events and approach and well written. How accurate or edited this all is I don't know of course but there are a few things that I found odd as one those early fans. I find the first albums get too much internal and external criticism in the book (and perhaps elsewhere). Are they "perfect"? Probably not, but given the time period, budgets, etc they sound more than decent and I still find that Dominici is a way better singer than he gets credit for. I never saw him live so I can't speak to that part but I actually am very fond of his performance on that debut album.

Fast forward over two decades: I'm not all too happy with some of the directions the band has taken in recent years, especially with the new album. I like it better now than when it first came out after giving it another chance - but it feels still a bit forced, formulaic - and I struggle with the choice of keyboard sounds, especially all and every faux symphonics that are just incredibly cheesy and, well, fake sounding.

With that in mind (and again, I don't care about WHO is playing but about the WHAT) I went through a refreshing period of listening to IAW and Awake in particular - and I wish DT would go back a bit in that direction in the future. Awake in my book is another one of those very underrated albums. Based on the book I understand how it may leave a bitter taste for the band. But it's a great album no matter what. And maybe I'm dating myself but the late 80s and early 90s had a lot to offer musically and as far as modern sounds go. It get ridiculed all too often. I was happy to see JP go back to a rack based system with a Triaxis etc. All that gear and those 90s sounds combined with modern recording technology should have a lot going for it. But please - no more artificial orchestras as on the recent album. Thanks for reading my rant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 12:46:34 PM
First of all, I think we've seen the worst of the artificial orchestra on A Dramatic Turn of Events. I don't think there was anything on DT12 that was quite as bad as on that album. So hopefully that's an indicator that it won't become a running theme in their future music.

Second, regarding Awake, I don't know who you've been talking to, but but around here, Awake tends to get almost universal praise, so much so that I'd almost call it overrated rather than underrated (keyword being 'Almost"). I actually haven't talked to very many people ANYWHERE who dislike Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 7enderbender on November 07, 2014, 01:25:43 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 12:46:34 PM
First of all, I think we've seen the worst of the artificial orchestra on A Dramatic Turn of Events. I don't think there was anything on DT12 that was quite as bad as on that album. So hopefully that's an indicator that it won't become a running theme in their future music.

Second, regarding Awake, I don't know who you've been talking to, but but around here, Awake tends to get almost universal praise, so much so that I'd almost call it overrated rather than underrated (keyword being 'Almost"). I actually haven't talked to very many people ANYWHERE who dislike Awake.

Interesting how different perceptions can be with this. On ADTOE there isn't really much that rubs that way while DT12 right off the bat starts out that way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 01:33:53 PM
Are you talking about False Awakening Suite? Naw, I love the way that sounds. It's the kind of orchestral and choral patches he used on Build Me Up Break Me Down, or on Outcry, that I didn't dig very much. Not enough to ruin the songs for me, but they'd be much higher on my list of favorites without that stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 07, 2014, 02:56:26 PM
False Awakening Suite was an actual orchestra.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: Grizz on November 07, 2014, 02:56:26 PM
False Awakening Suite was an actual orchestra.

Was it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 07, 2014, 03:16:27 PM
They rerecorded it for BTFW, for some strange reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2014, 03:16:27 PM
They rerecorded it for BTFW, for some strange reason.

I guess they used the orchestra that was accompanying them at the show, no? Maybe not live, but maybe that's how they re-recorded it.
But the original, was it all made with real instruments? I thought it was like SDOIT Overture, just simulated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2014, 03:52:40 PM
When we first got the track listing for the album I thought FAS was a super cool name, and I thought it would be something like A Mind Beside Itself, or something. I was disappointed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on November 07, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2014, 03:52:40 PM
When we first got the track listing for the album I thought FAS was a super cool name, and I thought it would be something like A Mind Beside Itself, or something. I was disappointed.

I had the same feeling, and I have an addition to this thing again from DT12.

I read a summary of the album when it wasn't released and they were doing some listening sessions with a few people. A guy wrote lots of correct things, but he also wrote that AFTR was a song with many time changes, many ragtime solos where Jordan shone and some crazy instrumentals. When they released the song before the album, my dreams were shattered :( Probably one of the few biggest disappointents about DT in my life(and it still feels boring, couldn't get into the song at all).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 07, 2014, 04:39:40 PM
Yeah, FAS definitely did not live up to its name. It's a nice concert opener, but it's not a suite by any stretch of the imagination. The name also seems to have no relation to anything really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 07, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 07, 2014, 04:39:40 PM
Yeah, FAS definitely did not live up to its name. It's a nice concert opener, but it's not a suite by any stretch of the imagination. The name also seems to have no relation to anything really.

Well considering that when they released the times for all the tracks, it was less than 3 minutes long, my hopes for it to be any real kind of a "suite" pretty much vanished. If anything, it's an Anti-Suite, in a way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

I'm not seeing the trend. What trajectory do you speak of?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 09, 2014, 01:29:37 PM
8V and ADTOE are similar in their sound.  Old sounding mixing.  Not in your face while SC and DT12 are very in your face, less organic in their sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 02:59:06 PM
Exactamundo. DT 12 and SC have been their most compressed albums to date.
But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 09, 2014, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 02:59:06 PM

But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".
I could agree with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 09, 2014, 04:44:06 PM
Yes, FAS was orchestrated on the album. I don't have by liner notes on me, but I'm pretty sure that aside from Eren possibly having orchestrated it, it's all different people. The version on BTFW was orchestra only and slightly faster. It was used as an intro tape to accompany Blob's modern (and far superior to the early 2Ks versions) band history video at every Along for the Ride concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on November 09, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

 Are you then suggesting that a lineup change may occur after the next album?!?!? Hummm...I wonder who will leave...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 09, 2014, 04:54:40 PM
No, he's suggesting that the next album will be and sound like BC&SL.

Why do you folks read into something not written?!  He already typed out his answer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 09, 2014, 05:21:35 PM
Good, that means that it'll be far better than DTXII and probably one of my favorites but nobody else will like it after the second year.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 02:59:06 PM
Exactamundo. DT 12 and SC have been their most compressed albums to date.
But, to me, 8V and ADTOE also "feel" similar. I can't put my finger on it, but those two albums feel "open", whereas SC and DT12 feel "closed".

Well, I don't sense any of that. I mean, I don't overanalyze the mixing, so you may be right, but in terms of how they feel, I don't sense any similarities at all. If anything DT12 is the one that reminds me of 8V, certainly a lot more than ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 09, 2014, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

I'd be up for another BC&SL at this point. Not identically, but I always enjoyed the longer songs. They have more replay value. And I probably like BC&SL more than most so that'd be win.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 09, 2014, 05:50:36 PM
All he is talking about "IS" the sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on November 09, 2014, 08:07:52 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 09, 2014, 05:50:36 PM
All he is talking about "IS" the sound.

That phrase is the complete tsunami of shit.

Funny story, when I first read that, it didn't make sense, so now my sarcastic response is meaningless. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 09, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

 Are you then suggesting that a lineup change may occur after the next album?!?!? Hummm...I wonder who will leave...

I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

That reminds me. Who was it that we had on here, that very confidently predicted that JR will leave the band within the next 5 years?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 10, 2014, 02:48:03 PM
I didn't appreciate Octavarium much when it came out, but these days I think it'd be a welcomed change.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on November 10, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

That reminds me. Who was it that we had on here, that very confidently predicted that JR will leave the band within the next 5 years?

That was me. JR isn't a fan of the music he makes and for someone as creative and inspired as him, that's a death knell. He'll be gone by 2016, sadly.   He just loves prog too much and doesn't like metal or DT's brand of music. :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2014, 03:36:19 PM
Or he uses DT as a springboard to get his prog solo albums sold.  Win/Win for both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 10, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
Why would he continue playing with DT for the entirety of their RR era if he doesn't like the metal DT? It's not like he hasn't had independent sources of income or opportunities to do whatever he likes in the past few years at least. He's become a household name pretty early in his career with DT so it's not like he *needs* them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
How was his albums selling before he joined DT?  I think we all know the answer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 10, 2014, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 10, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
Why would he continue playing with DT for the entirety of their RR era if he doesn't like the metal DT? It's not like he hasn't had independent sources of income or opportunities to do whatever he likes in the past few years at least. He's become a household name pretty early in his career with DT so it's not like he *needs* them.

Well, but somebody on the Internet said he is going to leave the band, so I'm not sure why you insist on disbelieving.  That seems pretty narrow-minded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2014, 04:14:38 PM
You can believe everything you read on the internet. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on November 10, 2014, 04:20:56 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on November 10, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

That reminds me. Who was it that we had on here, that very confidently predicted that JR will leave the band within the next 5 years?

That was me. JR isn't a fan of the music he makes and for someone as creative and inspired as him, that's a death knell. He'll be gone by 2016, sadly.   He just loves prog too much and doesn't like metal or DT's brand of music. :(

He's been in a progresive metal band for fifteen years now. What leap in logic convinces you that he doesn't like playing metal, given that he joined DT in the first place? By that logic he would have left the band with ToT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 10, 2014, 04:27:35 PM
Quote from: Jaq on November 10, 2014, 04:20:56 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on November 10, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

That reminds me. Who was it that we had on here, that very confidently predicted that JR will leave the band within the next 5 years?

That was me. JR isn't a fan of the music he makes and for someone as creative and inspired as him, that's a death knell. He'll be gone by 2016, sadly.   He just loves prog too much and doesn't like metal or DT's brand of music. :(

He's been in a progresive metal band for fifteen years now. What leap in logic convinces you that he doesn't like playing metal, given that he joined DT in the first place? By that logic he would have left the band with ToT 8 times over already after SFAM, Six Degrees, TOT, Octavarium, SC, BCSL, ADTOE, and DT12.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 10, 2014, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 10, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
How was his albums selling before he joined DT?  I think we all know the answer.
Yeah, but his current sales would probably not see a dent in them after leaving DT. Plus, he's done far more than just prog solo albums these days and his piano stuff in particular has crossover appeal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 10, 2014, 05:14:09 PM
That I agree but he was a big presence when MP left.  I just don't think he's going anywhere.  Plus DT is touring less freeing him to pursue his music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 10, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
JR has been pretty honest in the past and in the Lifting Shadows book that metal isn't really his thing. He's obviously happy enough in DT though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mike099 on November 10, 2014, 05:48:09 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 10, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
JR has been pretty honest in the past and in the Lifting Shadows book that metal isn't really his thing. He's obviously happy enough in DT though.

So that means JR is 'Along for the Ride'
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 10, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
I think JR is smart enough to know that DT is the only professional prog band out there, and that without the exposure he gets through them, he couldn't do half of his side projects either.
DT might not be his 100% type of music (and I actually doubt he'd listen to them if he weren't in the band), but he knows he's quite lucky to be in the position he is and what it allows him to do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 11, 2014, 06:05:57 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on November 10, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
JR isn't a fan of the music he makes and for someone as creative and inspired as him, that's a death knell. He'll be gone by 2016, sadly.   He just loves prog too much and doesn't like metal or DT's brand of music. :(
No.

To pretty much that entire post.

Oh sorry, this is the CONTROVERSIAL opinion thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 11, 2014, 07:04:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 10, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
I think JR is smart enough to know that DT is the only professional prog band out there, and that without the exposure he gets through them, he couldn't do half of his side projects either.
DT might not be his 100% type of music (and I actually doubt he'd listen to them if he weren't in the band), but he knows he's quite lucky to be in the position he is and what it allows him to do.

Yeah pretty much this. DT allows JR the flexibility and has provided him with the stability to do a number of other great things, side projects, solo projects, music software development, etc... And besides, he clearly enjoys the music they make together even if it may not be his favorite style of music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 11, 2014, 07:29:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 09, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
While writing the "future review" in the time capsule thread, it struck me that DT is, IMO, following a very similar trajectory with ADTOE->DT12 as they were with 8V->SC->BCSL.

 Are you then suggesting that a lineup change may occur after the next album?!?!? Hummm...I wonder who will leave...

I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

Why would you rule out MM?  What has he stuck with - besides the instrument itself - for any significant period of time?   There are rumblings that the touring is more than he expected (which doesn't imply "better than" he expected), so I don't see any reason to rule him out of anything at this point.

For XBOBX, I would also love to know how we know that JR doesn't like the music he is creating?   Is there an interview or source for this?  Or is this just more wild speculation?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2014, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 11, 2014, 07:29:45 AM
Why would you rule out MM?  What has he stuck with - besides the instrument itself - for any significant period of time?   There are rumblings that the touring is more than he expected (which doesn't imply "better than" he expected), so I don't see any reason to rule him out of anything at this point.

I hadn't heard those "rumblings", but in general, he was so *desperate* (and a friend who went to Berklee confirms it) to be with a touring band, he isn't gonna chuck it after 2 albums (or 3) and go back being a teacher.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 11, 2014, 08:51:00 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 11, 2014, 07:29:45 AM
Why would you rule out MM?  What has he stuck with - besides the instrument itself - for any significant period of time?   There are rumblings that the touring is more than he expected (which doesn't imply "better than" he expected), so I don't see any reason to rule him out of anything at this point
Seeing how overzealous he was after joining DT, I was really surprised to hear even a hint of dissatisfaction from his part, but it happened. Still, I don't see him ditching DT any time soon and the guys certainly wouldn't want to bring MP back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 11, 2014, 09:38:42 AM
Quote from: XB0BX on November 10, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 09, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 09, 2014, 09:25:35 PM
I don't know, interesting hypothesis. I think you could rule out MM (only recently joined) and JP (he's the main guy), JLB would strike me as unlikely too. That leaves JM and JR, both of whom (for different reasons) I could imagine maybe not being too hot about the brutal touring schedule anymore.

That reminds me. Who was it that we had on here, that very confidently predicted that JR will leave the band within the next 5 years?

That was me. JR isn't a fan of the music he makes and for someone as creative and inspired as him, that's a death knell. He'll be gone by 2016, sadly.   He just loves prog too much and doesn't like metal or DT's brand of music. :(
lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2014, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 11, 2014, 07:29:45 AM
For XBOBX, I would also love to know how we know that JR doesn't like the music he is creating?   Is there an interview or source for this?  Or is this just more wild speculation?

He can read minds of musicians, obviously. But only while they're playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on November 11, 2014, 01:17:05 PM
I thought this was supposed to be an "OPINIONS" thread, not a "RUMORS AND GOSSIP" thread!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2014, 02:22:59 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on November 11, 2014, 01:17:05 PM
I thought this was supposed to be an "OPINIONS" thread, not a "RUMORS AND GOSSIP" thread!!!

What are you saying? That we need one of those?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lumpy33 on November 11, 2014, 07:23:59 PM
let rudess go if he wants to.  i for one would LOVE to see derek back with the band.  i loved his style of keyboard work for the short time he was with them. 

controversial enough?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Nobody in the band is going anywhere, people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 11, 2014, 08:04:07 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Nobody in the band is going anywhere, people.

This but...

Quote from: lumpy33 on November 11, 2014, 07:23:59 PM
let rudess go if he wants to.  i for one would LOVE to see derek back with the band.  i loved his style of keyboard work for the short time he was with them. 

controversial enough?


...but if Rudess did quit, I really wouldn't hold my breath for Derek being back in the band. Frankly, Rudess really elevated the level of complexity and musicianship when he joined the band, and I'm hard pressed to think of a keyboard player who could play Rudess' parts. But even if they did find one, I highly doubt it would be Derek. And even if they agreed to settle for someone not as insanely fast as Rudess, it has been a really long time since Derek has been in the band, so not only is there any evidence that he'd even be interested in coming back, I don't even think the band would think of him right away. I mean, it wouldn't be natural like, "Oh, let's just ask Derek to come back." People change, relationships change. They might not have musical chemistry anymore. Or he might be in a different place creatively, or maybe they really would like someone as fast as Rudess. Either way, Derek coming back into the band would probably be only slightly more likely than Kevin Moore coming back into the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 11, 2014, 09:27:49 PM
Quote from: lumpy33 on November 11, 2014, 07:23:59 PM
let rudess go if he wants to.  i for one would LOVE to see derek back with the band.  i loved his style of keyboard work for the short time he was with them. 

controversial enough?

Well, not too controversial.  I liked DS a lot too but he was just a temporary hired gun and filled in nicely until the opportunity came again for JR.  DS didn't really mesh very well with the complex technicality of JP's playing.  Not to take anything away from DS.  He was and still is a great keyboard player, but I think JR is better for the overall sound of their arrangements.  I still dig listening to the short DS era of DT and I also have some of his solo work too.  Good stuff.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 11, 2014, 09:43:26 PM
I think Derek's style was great for the type of music they did on Falling Into Infinity. He seemed almost jazzy on that album and played a lot of organ which really played into the whole vibe. He also laid down one of the best keyboard solos in the band's entire discography on Trial of Tears. No, he wouldn't work out for them at all now, but I would say he was a little more than a hired gun on FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2014, 10:06:33 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Nobody in the band is going anywhere, people.

I believe that was the exact sentiment right before MP left. Just saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 11, 2014, 10:09:57 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 11, 2014, 09:43:26 PM
I think Derek's style was great for the type of music they did on Falling Into Infinity. He seemed almost jazzy on that album and played a lot of organ which really played into the whole vibe. He also laid down one of the best keyboard solos in the band's entire discography on Trial of Tears. No, he wouldn't work out for them at all now, but I would say he was a little more than a hired gun on FII.
Derek is the highlight of FII. That album wouldn't have been nearly as good without him.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on November 11, 2014, 10:28:05 PM
I wouldn't mind someone with a bit of taste back on the keys in DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on November 12, 2014, 01:26:35 AM
Quote from: abydos on November 11, 2014, 10:28:05 PM
I wouldn't mind someone with a bit of taste back on the keys in DT.

Yeah, No doubt that Rudess is one of the best players out there, but I liked Kevin's and Derek's style much much more!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 06:31:59 AM
The best keyboard work is in Awake.  Not best at the technical level but best in doing the stuff needed to get the message of the songs across.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 12, 2014, 06:48:55 AM
I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 12, 2014, 07:07:09 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 12, 2014, 06:48:55 AM
I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:15:25 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 12, 2014, 06:48:55 AM
I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

This, but I also happen to think that some of the patches and sounds used on that album were quite grating. Ear piercing even. Comparing Erotomania, to the keyboard tone he used in the Awake Demos... I really wish they had stuck with what they used for the demo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 07:36:29 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 12, 2014, 06:48:55 AM
I disagree.  Kev at that time checked out knowing he was leaving.  When that album came out, I felt it lacked what he did on I&W.

So it is a controversial opinion. ;) Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.
Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.


Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 07:36:29 AM
So it is a controversial opinion. ;) Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

As for the highlighter statement that's... Controversial maybe, but it's just weird. Erotomania is nothing like I&W. In fact, if they keys on it sounded more like the keys on I&W, it would be so much better. All in all if you ask me, I&W is absolutely superior to Awake in terms of Keyboard parts, as well as the sounds and patches used. There's not one song on Awake where they keyboards sound better than any song on I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.
Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.
Check out Planet X.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 07:36:29 AM
So it is a controversial opinion. ;) Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 12, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 07:36:29 AM
So it is a controversial opinion. ;) Anyway, I basically can not imagine how the Awake songs could sound better than how he already did it. Let's not judge it by Kevin's disposition at the time, let's judge it by the music itself. Can you imagine a better keys for the distinct sound he made in CIAW? The Mirror? Scarred? Lifting Shadows? I agree that Erotomania could be better, but it's because of all the Awake songs, it's the only one that sounds more I&W than Awake.

If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.

I completely agree. The keyboard parts are a big reason why Awake is lower on my list than most people. Kevin's parts on WDaDU and I&W are fantastic, but he's the weak link on Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 10:12:33 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on November 12, 2014, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.

I completely agree. The keyboard parts are a big reason why Awake is lower on my list than most people. Kevin's parts on WDaDU and I&W are fantastic, but he's the weak link on Awake.

Which is completely understandable, given where he was (or wasn't) mentally at that point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:16:31 AM
Interesting. Care to elaborate?
In my opinion, KM was smart enough to realize that it's a futile exercise to compete with JP in the heavy sections, so he rather worked on adding an interesting new dimension to the part. JR often doubles the guitar line, which is totally pointless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on November 12, 2014, 11:45:04 AM
KM was pretty inconsistent in this department IMO. For example, the keyboards in The Mirror are great, but I really don't like what he does in CiaW and Lie. I would go so far as to say the keyboard ruins the latter two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 12:07:22 PM
Those are great examples (although I quite like Lie despite KM's keyboards).  Those parts keyboard parts actively interfere with my enjoyment of those songs. 

I like most of Jordan's work, whether it be on heavy parts or not.  And he does far more than simply double the guitar whenever there is a heavy part.  For example, I was just listening to Outcry, and there is a heavy section on the verse before the instrumental break where Jordan is doing some really cool atmospheric stuff that is far from simply doubling.  However, even when he is doubling the guitar, I often find that his parts enhance the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 12:07:22 PM
Those are great examples (although I quite like Lie despite KM's keyboards).  Those parts keyboard parts actively interfere with my enjoyment of those songs.
Agreed oh so much.

Erotomania is still my primary example of bad keyboards on Awake. Both Derek and Jordan, when playing it live, used much more pleasant patches for those organs.

Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 12:07:22 PM
I like most of Jordan's work, whether it be on heavy parts or not.  And he does far more than simply double the guitar whenever there is a heavy part.  For example, I was just listening to Outcry, and there is a heavy section on the verse before the instrumental break where Jordan is doing some really cool atmospheric stuff that is far from simply doubling.  However, even when he is doubling the guitar, I often find that his parts enhance the song.

Agreed with this as well. The thing is, sometimes you don't need some atmosphere in the background, or a whole separate melody line underneath. Sometimes the guitar just needs to do its thing, and let the audience appreciate the verses. And yeah, Jordan's Snarling Pig thing doesn't completely change the song, but the thing is, if a person doesn't notice it anyway, then it doesn't take away from anything. Otherwise, it just adds a little more meat to the guitar sound without taking away from what the actual riff is. And people who aren't aware that it's something he does, might not even realize he's doing anything at all, which is the best part of the whole thing.
But yeah, there are plenty of times when Jordan either lays down great atmosphere, As I Am being my favorite example. And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.

Well, interestingly, I think a lot of what he does on OTBOA is very reminiscent of KM's playing on PMU.  I couldn't tell you if they are actually similar in musical terms.  But they have a similar vibe and feel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 02:13:19 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
And others where he just does something totally different, and kind of cool and funky, such as on OTBOA.

Well, interestingly, I think a lot of what he does on OTBOA is very reminiscent of KM's playing on PMU.  I couldn't tell you if they are actually similar in musical terms.  But they have a similar vibe and feel.

Hmm... Yeah, I get what you're saying, it's underneath, and verry staccato in its style. But hey, let's not start making any more comparisons between I&W and ADTOE, lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 02:23:19 PM
Hey, if they are fair comparisons, I don't see why not make them.  :dunno: 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.

Well, like I said, my biggest problem are the keyboards on Erotomania and 6:00. CIAW... They're more tolerable, or at least, I got used to them enough to enjoy them, but even that took a while. And yeah, Lie I enjoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:15:40 PM
I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:53:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
But I liked the keyboards in CIAW and Lie. It sounds like some late Beatles stuff on a heavy metal song.

Well, like I said, my biggest problem are the keyboards on Erotomania and 6:00. CIAW... They're more tolerable, or at least, I got used to them enough to enjoy them, but even that took a while. And yeah, Lie I enjoy.

What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 03:59:08 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:15:40 PM
I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.

Maybe the album itself yeah, definitely has a distinct 90s sound, as it's mixed and mastered and all that. But the songs themselves, I think aged much better than on Awake. For example, hearing them live, they don't sound any more dated than anything on Awake. Metropolis, I would say has stood the test of time better than any other DT song from the 90s.

Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:53:42 PM
What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.

I just find them annoying. The composition is okay, and if anything, I like the organs on the Chorus, it's the opening riff where they keys are just grating.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 12, 2014, 04:51:26 PM
I&W kinda has more interesting compositions imo, but sounds a bit thin overall on certain elements like the production compared to the monstrous Awake.

As a result, I&W I'm more likely to listen to an individual song, Awake I'm more likely to listen as a whole. I've mostly put both albums in fairly similar regard though as they were some of the last albums I got from the band too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 12, 2014, 05:03:15 PM
I think JR is more hit and miss because 1.) he's more experimental and 2.) he plays more notes - waywayWAY more notes. He plays various patches on pretty much every measure of music, which is something KM and DS did not do. I think JR is just as good at playing "atmospherically" as KM was, but I think JR sometimes just diminishes those performances by playing so many other things, too. Train of Thought has some great string and synth sounds going which complement the heaviness just as well as anything KM did, but it also features all these flukey bells and whistles and, say, "gargling" noises.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 05:36:07 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 12, 2014, 04:51:26 PM
I&W kinda has more interesting compositions imo, but sounds a bit thin overall on certain elements like the production compared to the monstrous Awake.

As a result, I&W I'm more likely to listen to an individual song, Awake I'm more likely to listen as a whole. I've mostly put both albums in fairly similar regard though as they were some of the last albums I got from the band too.

Yeah, but I always judge an album based on its compositions rather than how it's mixed. I mean, you might think I&W sounds thin (and depending on my mood, sometimes I do find it a little thin to my taste), but you put on a song like Pull Me Under or Metropolis from one of their live recordings, and that wonderful, large, full sound is there. Especially the Score version of Metropolis, with the orchestra backing it. The first time I heard it, I didn't know they had a live orchestra, and I just couldn't place it. I was like, "My God, this sounds beyond amazing. What did they do!?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 12, 2014, 05:52:24 PM
Yeah agreed, infact it was after hearing some of the live versions of I&W songs that I gained more appreciation for the material because I could hear more detail in the expression of certain sounds. Well, I suppose that's something that happens with any live version.

I also judge on the music first, hell I rank WDADU higher than most and the production doesn't bother me on that. BUT, the mixing can effect my decision to listen to a whole album as a single experience. Because I'd have to retain a more consistently open mindset when appreciating it, which is.. I dunno.. more effort?  :lol If an album has nice production, I can just take it at face value instead of trying to appreciate those other details and having to deliberately judge it on those merits because you're trying to ignore some kind of off putting production.

Of course, I&W is probably a poor example to use for describing this because it's production is relatively not that bad. And the songwriting itself is still more important than how it's actually crafted. But I do think the production does have a significant effect on the overall listening experience. Hope I'm making sense here.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:03:26 PM
I find that on I&W, the production is a lot more "Rock" oriented. The keyboards are really loud and prevalent, and the guitar doesn't sound all that heavy. Like, when DT first came out, and became all popular, and everyone was so impressed by them, they always made the comparison of having the progressive and melodic touch of bands like Rush, Yes, etc. but with the heavy riffs of Metallica, but I&W was so heavy on the keyboards, that I didn't get a "Metallica" sense from any of its riffs, because everything was so clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards, that I&W really does come off more like a Prog Rock album, rather than a Prog Metal album. But yeah, with Awake, those riffs... I can feel them right in my loins.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 07:07:00 PM
Well, I find that *I* am more "Rock" oriented, and that when people think about me, they can feel it right in their loins.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2014, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on November 12, 2014, 08:28:24 PM
I've always thought JLB's always looked really fat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 12, 2014, 08:32:32 PM
Except during the SC sessions right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 08:33:10 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on November 12, 2014, 08:28:24 PM
I've always thought JLB's always looked really fat.

And his hair is, like, so last year!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 09:00:43 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 03:59:08 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:15:40 PM
I have another controversial opinion. Awake aged much better than IaW. I rarely listen to IaW now and when I do, I still enjoy it but with the awareness that it sounds so much like a late 80s early 90s record. It wears the timestamp of its era. LtL in particular sounds so dated, it's very much a product of its time.

Maybe the album itself yeah, definitely has a distinct 90s sound, as it's mixed and mastered and all that. But the songs themselves, I think aged much better than on Awake. For example, hearing them live, they don't sound any more dated than anything on Awake. Metropolis, I would say has stood the test of time better than any other DT song from the 90s.

Metropolis is indeed one song that does not sound dated yet. But songs like Another Day, Take The Time, and the DTF-popular Learning to Live sound so dated that i half expect to see Dennis Franz, Jimmy Smits and Lou Diamond Phillips to appear on my TV screen while I listen to these songs.  :lol The much ballyhooed catchy bass line of JM in LtL, for example, has a very late 1980s feel to it.

Anyway, I grew up on cassette tapes. I collected DT in tapes up to ToT, so I grew accsutomed to listening to whole albums at a time, not on a per song basis. So when I said I&W sounded dated compared to Awake, I am talking about listening to the album as a whole.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 03:59:08 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 03:53:42 PM
What's the problem with the keys on 6:00? The only "weak" portion I can think of is the chorus, but I think it's more of the function of the chorus being the weak portion of the song. The keys in the intro are great, jived sonwell with the groove set by MP.

I just find them annoying. The composition is okay, and if anything, I like the organs on the Chorus, it's the opening riff where they keys are just grating.

Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps...

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
And turns the music down
But just can't seem to shake that sound"

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

The keys in the album play like that. It's uplifting when it needs to (Lifting Shadows). It's enveloping, fluid, aggressive (Caught In A Web). It's a parody (Erotomania). It's haunting (Mirror), mocking (Lie), lethargic (Space Dye Vest). It's depressed, hurt, angry, trying to move on (Scarred). Surely it would not sound like Images and Words, that saccharinely bright and hopeful record. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 09:00:43 PM
Metropolis is indeed one song that does not sound dated yet. But songs like Another Day, Take The Time, and the DTF-popular Learning to Live sound so dated that i half expect to see Dennis Franz, Jimmy Smits and Lou Diamond Phillips to appear on my TV screen while I listen to these songs.  :lol The much ballyhooed catchy bass line of JM in LtL, for example, has a very late 1980s feel to it.
Learning to Live... Honestly, I think if they changed up the keyboards at the beginning, and used a more modern sound for them, like something more chimy... Heck, even the stuff that JR has been using live isn't that bad. It also does a good job of helping the song sound more fresh and timeless.


Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 09:00:43 PM
Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps...

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
And turns the music down
But just can't seem to shake that sound"

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

The keys in the album play like that. It's uplifting when it needs to (Lifting Shadows). It's enveloping, fluid, aggressive (Caught In A Web). It's a parody (Erotomania). It's haunting (Mirror), mocking (Lie), lethargic (Space Dye Vest). It's depressed, hurt, angry, trying to move on (Scarred). Surely it would not sound like Images and Words, that saccharinely bright and hopeful record. :lol

Yeaaah, but there's got to be a line between making an emotional statement regarding the subject matter, and making the actual music pleasant.

For example, I get that Grunge was supposed to be about anger and angst and a great outlet for that sort of thing. But taking an album like In Utero by Nirvana for example, some of the songs on it, like Scentless Apprentice, are down right unlistenable thanks to the vocals. Maybe it accurately portrays his emotional state in the song, but if it sounds like a piece of shit, then I don't want to listen to it. Great, you got your idea across, that's the first and last time I will ever listen to the song. Thanks.

Thankfully nothing on Awake is nearly that bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 10:58:36 PM
Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.
And to be honest, I think that already started. I was listening to the BTFW bootleg at work the other day, and the performance has been solidly "corrected" from beginning to end. Most of James' singing was pitch corrected, and some stuff was overdubbed. And both JP and JR solos have been overdubbed in spots. And, of course the numerous backing tracks that get piped in.
I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me. And these "cosmetic fixes" will only become more prominent over time. I think honestly, Chaos in Motion was one of the most honest DVDs they put out, in terms of what the performances really sound like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on November 12, 2014, 11:02:22 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 12, 2014, 09:00:43 PM

Personally, I found the unique keys in Awake as very appropriate in the context of the songs. That is why I stated that they are the best use of keys in the album, because they fit the songs. For example, the "grating" intro key riff in 6:00 fits so well because it is about KM waking up, feeling irritated that he has to go through this thing that he does not want to do anymore.

lyrics

The "grating" riff really makes you feel that! That freaking siren, that sound you can not shake off.

This is a really clever assessment, never thought of it this way before :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 12, 2014, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 10:58:36 PM
Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.
And to be honest, I think that already started. I was listening to the BTFW bootleg at work the other day, and the performance has been solidly "corrected" from beginning to end. Most of James' singing was pitch corrected, and some stuff was overdubbed. And both JP and JR solos have been overdubbed in spots. And, of course the numerous backing tracks that get piped in.
I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me. And these "cosmetic fixes" will only become more prominent over time. I think honestly, Chaos in Motion was one of the most honest DVDs they put out, in terms of what the performances really sound like.
I got that feeling while listening to bootlegs and hearing JP flub his solo in The Enemy Inside time and time again. I'm thinking "how come he can't play his most recent solo?" There' also a flip side to that, since it's quite positive and admirable that they're still pushing themselves and writing songs on their limit. I don't think they should go in the studio saying: "yeah, let's take it down a notch, so we can play this stuff 15 years from now". On the contrary, they should always come up with stuff that inspires and challenges them. It's what makes it interesting for everyone. I also can't remember hearing a live version of The Glass Prison where JP could do justice to the arpeggios at the beginning, so it's not necessarily an aging thing, they always got a bit ahead of themselves in the studio. I listened to the bootlegs as well and I don't find the corrections jarring or excessive at all. They're only human.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on November 13, 2014, 02:42:56 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on November 12, 2014, 11:49:08 PM
I also can't remember hearing a live version of The Glass Prison where JP could do justice to the arpeggios at the beginning, so it's not necessarily an aging thing, they always got a bit ahead of themselves in the studio.

Well, that was also because MP used to speed up the song quite a lot, so in the original tempo i'm sure JP could handle the arpeggios much better.

As far as an aging problem, i think the problem is mostly the mentality, this so focused and predefined "DT sound" that we keep hearing, that keeps them locked in a position where the music starts to feel samey and not so fresh anymore. I hoped that JR would step up and be more upfront, he has the talent and the musical variety to keep things interesting, but he seems to be ok in his (mostly unchallenging) role.
I have to say though, that the intro jam to Trial Of Tears sounded pretty good, and more along the lines of what i think is missing from DT, and that is more atmosphere, and less metal with epic elements.

There are glimpses of experimentation on DT12, like the syncopated riff on IT with only bass and drums, as well as the easter egg on the same song, but on the grand scheme it's just not enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 07:42:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 10:58:36 PM
Controversial statement time: I think to some degree, DT has an "aging problem". What I mean by that is, because they continue writing the same style of music (fast, complex runs and solos, difficult vocal lines), they're not giving themselves an exit path for when their age will take its toll, when they can no longer play it.

I get what you're saying, and I thought about it too. But honestly, I think that's their problem to deal with. I mean, when the time comes, and their fingers start, I don't know, creaking or something when they play, they will have some options ahead of them. Either eliminate the more complex pieces from their setlists, and stick to their simpler songs, which I mean, they do have the simpler songs, so it's not like ALL of their material is relatively complex. Another thing they could do is slow down their complex tunes to make them easier to play. Didn't they play a couple of the songs slower on the last tour?

Another option for them, and I honestly think this would be a great option, and something very interesting, is to change the music itself. Back in the 90s, on occasion, they'd play one of their songs and JP or whoever the Keyboard player at the time happened to be, would change up the solo. Still have it in the same style, mood, but something new and different. And it certainly made the listens more interesting, because it's like, "Whoa, I didn't see that coming. That sounds cool!"
So if they change their more complex solos to something a little different, and not as complex, I won't be bothered by it.

Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 10:58:36 PM
I must say, as much as I enjoyed watching BTFW, the knowledge that the sound isn't really what they performed that night, bugs me.

See, this doesn't really bother me because,  while I haven't listned to the bootleg of BTFW, I did see them live just a month prior to that show, and I thought they played everything absolutely flawlessly, and JLB was dead on on all the songs. Now, maybe there were mistakes made and I just didn't notice them, but hell, if I don't notice them, then it doesn't take away from my enjoyment, so who cares?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 13, 2014, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.
Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.
Check out Planet X.
Absolutely, why is this even an issue? :lol

Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
If you ask me, there's nothing that great about the keyboard parts on Awake. They're unique, sure, but that doesn't equate to great, or even good in some cases. The album is great, but its main strengths are the guitar and the vocals.

This.  And I will take it one step further and say that the keyboards flat out ruined some of the songs on Awake.
Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 13, 2014, 05:30:03 PM
Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.
Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.


Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 08:27:18 AM
Check out Planet X.

I heard Planet X, though it's been a while. I remember it being pretty impressive, but I guess I just assumed he's always had it in him, and never considered it to be him growing and getting better, haha. Again, my memory may not serve too well, but from what I remember, I still don't think I'd put him at JR's, or DT's most complex level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 13, 2014, 05:56:52 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.
Yeah, I know, I was just making a comparison point I haven't seen yet :)

Personally, I think the music that makes you the right (tiny!) amount of mildly uncomfortable at times provokes the best emotional response. Various metal bands thread this thin line all the time and come up with fantastic results, but it depends on the genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on November 13, 2014, 05:57:56 PM
For example, I'm pretty sure the entire point of the Dillinger Escape Plan is to be grating. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 13, 2014, 05:59:21 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 13, 2014, 05:30:03 PM
Y'all, there's more to keyboards than whether the patch is "pleasant" or not. Not that I'm the authority, but I think this debate is the same as the "should have James used less growly vocals", some think the style calls for it and some find it obnoxious (although not a lot on this forum do). I thought the point of Awake was to be dark, grating and a little more low-key than IAW. When the songs request it, they all go for the prettified soundscapes.
Hey, if people don't like James' gritty vocals, they're well within their rights to complain about it and make their claim for why Awake would be a better album with cleaner vocals.

Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

Well, it depends I guess on one's appreciation of the "grating" sounds, in seeing music in what sometimes appears like noise. KM's keys on 6:00 is nowhere near the "grating" sound of JP's lead in Misunderstood, or a lot of the late work of The Beatles, or the soundscapes used by Sonic Youth, all of which I actually love.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 06:04:09 PM
But JP's tone on Misunderstood doesn't sound like they just cranked the Treble on the EQ and turned it up to the max. It's partially Kevin's choice of keys that's the problem, but a part of it is definitely the mix, I'd say.

We were talking about the word "shrill" in the other thread, well, shrill is exactly how I would describe the keyboards on Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 13, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I don't care what it was, I just don't like it.  And that's fine.  Anyone who does like it is just as entitled to their opinion as I am to mine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 13, 2014, 08:13:19 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 13, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I don't care what it was, I just don't like it.  And that's fine.  Anyone who does like it is just as entitled to their opinion as I am to mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f771wXxw2vs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 08:40:01 PM
My controversial opinion for the night:

I've been listening to a lot of DT live footage lately, just going through the bootlegs and stuff in chronological order, and I realized that I really find that little thing MP did during his drum solos quite annoying.
The thing where he plays the pattern, and then has the audience clap the pattern. I mean, I get that it kind of brings the excitement level up and calls up on some audience participation, and that's cool. But it's the same damn pattern every time, no matter where he played! I just wish he changed it up every once in a while. Otherwise, as soon as a Mike Portnoy solo comes on, you just know that, "Dum-dum-dum. Dum-dum-dum. Dum-dum-dum. Dum." pattern is coming. And it's fine if it's the first time a fan hears something like that, but now it's been immortalized on so many bootlegs and releases that I really can't blame James for prioritizing his Chai Latte over the drum solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 13, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
Though personally, I don't think grating should ever be a quality describing the point of an album though. I'm talking grating on the nerves, grating to the ears. I can't imagine too many musicians saying, "We want to annoy our listeners with this sound," unless we're talking about like Type O Negative, or another band that likes to troll its fans here and there.

I agree with you 100%, which is part of why I've been moving away from metal and from some "experimental" forms of music for a little while now. I listen to music for emotions and storytelling, yes, but to me melody is primary and listenability is very important as well. This is also why Images and Words is my clear favorite DT album (I agree with what you said about it being "clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards") and why I absolutely hate the way they chose to end Misunderstood, which is otherwise a good song. I find Awake listenable in most places, but I agree that KM did some weird stuff that didn't really work some of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 13, 2014, 09:59:59 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
I agree with you 100%, which is part of why I've been moving away from metal and from some "experimental" forms of music for a little while now. I listen to music for emotions and storytelling, yes, but to me melody is primary and listenability is very important as well. This is also why Images and Words is my clear favorite DT album (I agree with what you said about it being "clean and pristine, and laced with keyboards") and why I absolutely hate the way they chose to end Misunderstood, which is otherwise a good song. I find Awake listenable in most places, but I agree that KM did some weird stuff that didn't really work some of the time.

Well, when it comes to Misunderstood, it's never bothered me, but hey, there's always the Single Edit.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on November 13, 2014, 10:54:38 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 12, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 12, 2014, 07:35:59 AM
Actually, Derek has come a LONG way since leaving DT.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was better at recreating some of JR's stuff than many think.
Didn't know that. Still, he was one of the band's shortest lived members, and this was almost 20 years ago, so I highly doubt bringing him back would be an immediate, automatic decision on their part.
Check out Planet X.

Holy shit o.o I'm listening to Black Utopia.
I can only imagine how amazing DT _could_ be with Derek nowadays!  (I'm not saying "would" because you can never be sure  ;) )
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
I'm not saying that Derek is necessarily on JR's level.  But if something were to happen to JR, or he decided he didn't want to do it anymore, but the rest of the band wanted to continue, Derek wouldn't be  a bad guy to call.

Whether he would want to do it or not is a whole other story.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 07:26:07 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
I'm not saying that Derek is necessarily on JR's level.  But if something were to happen to JR, or he decided he didn't want to do it anymore, but the rest of the band wanted to continue, Derek wouldn't be  a bad guy to call.

Whether he would want to do it or not is a whole other story.

Yeah, exactly. Either way, it's been so long that I don't think their first thought would be, "What's Derek doing these days?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2014, 07:43:32 AM
Depends.  Maybe not, if JR just quit.

If he had an injury or an illness, and it was just a fill-in, short-term gig to help out old friends, then maybe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 07:49:16 AM
I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong, but I haven't read anything that would indicate that they even stayed in touch with Derek. If they have, then yeah, totally, but as far as I knew, they were relatively estranged at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2014, 08:44:58 AM
When he sat in with them for WDADRU, they didn't look estranged.  And he and the band have each said awesome things about each other since.  I have never had any sense of bad blood between them whatsoever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 08:47:31 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2014, 08:44:58 AM
When he sat in with them for WDADRU, they didn't look estranged.  And he and the band have each said awesome things about each other since.  I have never had any sense of bad blood between them whatsoever.

No, I'm not saying bad blood. But it doesn't seem like they keep in touch all that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 14, 2014, 09:31:31 AM
A reply to the idea that was being thrown around earlier that Jordan doesn't care that much about DT's music and is mostly in the band to boost the popularity of his other projects: This part (https://youtu.be/sx8cLlXnHpA?t=29m55s) from the DTF live interview with the band from about a year ago (in which Jordan is actually answering the question asked by me, which was "what do you remember about the first time you heard a song or album from Dream Theater?", you can scroll back 30 or so seconds to hear Mike Mangini's answer) would seem to contradict that a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 14, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 14, 2014, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: TAC on November 14, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.

Absolutely.  Again, I think it has been made crystal clear that there is no bad blood.  First off, he played the WDADRA show with the band.  Second, even though I believe Portnoy was the driving force behind making the change (if I am not misremembering), he has played again with Portnoy in other projects.  And there may have been other interactions that I am not remembering as well. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 14, 2014, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: TAC on November 14, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
I could see Derek coming back. I mean he was kicked out for Jordan Fuc#ing Rudess. I think he gets that. If there's one thing that has been clear since Derek left, it's that he has class and perspective.

Totally agree, Derek has shown absolutely nothing but class since he left DT and if JR were to leave, the remaining members of DT don't seem to feel anything negative toward Derek at all, so I totally think he'd be the conversation to replace JR. Whether he could handle the gig, I don't know, honestly Derek and the dudes in DT would be able to determine that pretty quickly so if it didn't seem like it would work out, I'm sure no one on either side would be offended by DT looking for a different keys player altogether.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 10:12:09 AM
I know I was a part of it, but honestly, I don't even see why it became such a massive discussion, lol. I really don't think Jordan is going anywhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dreamer on November 14, 2014, 11:39:20 AM
I haven't read all this thread but my controversial opinion is that ADTOE and DT12 are their best albums!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 11:41:06 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on November 14, 2014, 11:39:20 AM
I haven't read all this thread but my controversial opinion is that ADTOE and DT12 are their best albums!  ;D

Not gonna argue with you, I think the vast majority of their albums have enough merit to be anyone's favorite. But just curious, how long have you been a fan?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:13:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2014, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.

Well he did stop caring halfway through the recording sessions. I like the keys on Awake though. The whole album sounds great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 14, 2014, 07:31:50 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:13:58 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 12, 2014, 07:09:44 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 12, 2014, 11:12:32 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 12, 2014, 11:09:00 AM
Of the three keyboard players, KM had the best idea of what to put under a heavy section, and still positively add to it.

I STRONGLY disagree.

Ditto. I find some of the stuff he does in Lie obnoxious, and a lot of the heavy sections are the same synth strings. I think Awake has the least diverse keys of DT's albums.

Well he did stop caring halfway through the recording sessions. I like the keys on Awake though. The whole album sounds great.

Stopped caring, perfectly summed by this.

"Melody walks through the door
And memory flies out the window
And nobody knows what they want
'til they finally let it all go."

Thank you, Kevin Moore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 14, 2014, 07:47:48 PM
The lyrics to 6:00 is amazing. Amazing how you can write about not liking to stay in the band within a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
I can only imagine the moment the lyrics clicked for the other guys.

"WAIT A MINUTE!"

But they still play the song, so they must not care that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 14, 2014, 08:12:18 PM
JP did write his piece to KM in Innocence Faded. :) Awake, for me, has some of their best lyrics. I think the pressure made them write more from what they feel than from their head because they are not afforded the time to think. So the words and the music in this album felt so honest and emotional compred to their other albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 14, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.
KM was the last guy in DT to understand the power of silence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 14, 2014, 08:54:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 14, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.

I disagree. They still write lyrics that are open to interpretation. TLG, BTV, and TBP are not really straigjtforward in meaning. Compare that to a lot of songs in the SDOIT album that are very straightforward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 14, 2014, 09:01:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 14, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 14, 2014, 07:43:22 PM
But don't cut your losses too soon
'Cause you'll only be cutting your throat
And answer a call while you still hear at all
'Cause nobody will if you won't

Subtle.

It's convenient to map these lyrics to his leaving, but I never did personally. To me, the lyrics are about "requirement". The feeling where you are caught in a routine obligation, where it has become so routine that you sometimes don't even remember what your initial motivation was.
Mapping that to his situation in DT is one interpretation, but there are many others.

That's the power of KM's songwriting. It leaves *you* to fill in the blanks, you to correlate it to your personal situation.

It's interesting. DT, by replacing KM eventually with JR, and MP with MM, have only learned how to say more; never how to say less.
KM was the last guy in DT to understand the power of silence.

You can map the entire song's lyrics to his leaving. Your definition is accurate, but the way he words everything just screams "I have all these new musical ideas, but I'm stuck in Dream Theater and want to get out!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 14, 2014, 11:40:20 PM
Well, even guys in DT agree that it was about how he was feeling within the band at the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lumpy33 on November 15, 2014, 08:33:30 AM
when derek replaced kevin, did he write any of the lyrics on fii?  just wondering...

playing wise, derek took dt to a whole new level of groove/funkiness on fii, giving them a fatter pocket.  i'd love to hear them go back to that playing style for a few tunes on the next record.  i wonder if they could do it without derek's influence...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on November 15, 2014, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 14, 2014, 08:54:56 PM
TLG, BTV, and TBP
I don't even know which those songs are :lol It has been a very long since I last had problems or were incapable of understanding DT lingo xD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 15, 2014, 09:21:07 AM
Translation: The Looking Glass, Behind the Veil, The Bigger Picture
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 15, 2014, 11:54:15 PM
Quote from: lumpy33 on November 15, 2014, 08:33:30 AM
when derek replaced kevin, did he write any of the lyrics on fii?  just wondering...


No. Lyrics on FII:

MP: New Millennium, Burning My Soul, Just Let Me Breathe
JP: You Not Me (w/ Desmond Child), Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain
JM: Trial of Tears
JLB: Anna Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on November 16, 2014, 10:43:00 PM
Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: Bolsters on November 16, 2014, 10:43:00 PM
Raw Dog is better than Enigma Machine.

Nah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 16, 2014, 11:13:36 PM
Both are among the poorest tunes DT have put out. Hard to judge, I find.
That said, Enigma Machine has a horrible drum fill, and a horrible keyboard solo. So, in hindsight I might actually agree that Raw Dog is better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:18:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.

They've consistently done that before though. Back in the I&W days, they'd have the drum solo in the middle of Ytse Jam, and then when Awake came out, they'd do it with Erotomania.

Anyway, I'd say Enigma Machine is one of DT's best instrumentals, maybe tying with SOC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:18:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
I'd consider both to be DT's weakest instrumentals. I don't find one to be significantly better than the other, but I don't hate either of them. I'd probably knock a few points off Enigma Machine because live they use it as a trojan horse for a drum solo.

They've consistently done that before though. Back in the I&W days, they'd have the drum solo in the middle of Ytse Jam, and then when Awake came out, they'd do it with Erotomania.


Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:39:44 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs. :lol

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 16, 2014, 11:44:47 PM
Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:46:35 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 16, 2014, 11:44:47 PM
Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.

Unless people actually want to listen to it at home. Then that's kind of useful, ya know?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 12:09:48 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:46:35 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 16, 2014, 11:44:47 PM
Enigma Machine would have been awesome if they made it as an exclusive live track. No studio version. The piece is really just pure showing off of chops with some form of structure, so it's good live entertainment, but not really good in a studio album.

Unless people actually want to listen to it at home. Then that's kind of useful, ya know?

Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 12:14:33 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 12:09:48 AM
Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.

Yeah, but I don't understand the difference. I mean, if they omitted Enigma Machine from the album, we'd have the same album, only shorter. So why not have it on there?

If they decided to throw Bombay Vindaloo and Eve on the Awake CD, I wouldn't have minded, even if I'm not that inclined to listen to them all the time. If I don't feel like it, I skip it, but sometimes it's nice that it's there.
And the current live version of Enigma Machine, as Blob mentioned, has a Drum Solo in the middle of it, so for someone who wants a more concise package, that's what the studio version is for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: plgi024 on November 17, 2014, 12:19:41 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:39:44 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs. :lol

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.

I feel you...

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2014, 12:26:20 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 16, 2014, 11:39:44 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
Yeah, but I didn't have to sit through the drum solo in any of those songs. :lol

Well, what about when watching Live In Tokyo, or listening to bootlegs.

Besides, I think MM's drum solos are way better, and more interesting than MP's were.

All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 12:27:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2014, 12:26:20 AM
All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows. :P

Yeah, but come on! Don't condemn the whole song because of a single live experience, lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2014, 12:29:45 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 12:27:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2014, 12:26:20 AM
All drum solos are equally boring, I don't care who it is. And DVDs have a skip button, unlike live shows. :P

Yeah, but come on! Don't condemn the whole song because of a single live experience, lol.

Jebus, it was just a joke comment to begin with. Let it go already. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 17, 2014, 12:35:15 AM
Enigma Machine is a lot of fun to play. Before I learned it I found it pretty boring so I can kinda see how the band thought it was really cool to put on the album. Love the drum fills/solo on it though!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 12:54:33 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 12:14:33 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 12:09:48 AM
Then they can listen to the official live record. Sort of like how Queen fans only hear the full Brighton Rock Solo in the live recordings of Queen. The highlight of EM for me is that it's a showcase of virtuosity, so it really works well when you watch them pull off the musical wankiness live. For me, it really works well with that live energy.

Some artists have released songs with no official studio versions. Off the top of my head, Steve Vai has released Whispering a Prayer and I Know You're Here.

Yeah, but I don't understand the difference. I mean, if they omitted Enigma Machine from the album, we'd have the same album, only shorter. So why not have it on there?

For me, it's just that the way EM is composed, it works with a live energy, but feels a little flat when it does not have that energy. To my ears, EM sounds like jamming music, and the "fun" feeling of the jam is lost in the studio version. Studio instrumentals for me work best if it's composed like a song,  like New Millennium, Stream of Consciousness, or Overture 1928.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fischermasamune on November 17, 2014, 01:40:11 AM
New Millenium?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 17, 2014, 01:41:02 AM
Let's just assume he meant Hell's Kitchen. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 01:41:44 AM
LOL. HELL's KITCHEN, dammit!  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 07:55:47 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 12:54:33 AM
For me, it's just that the way EM is composed, it works with a live energy, but feels a little flat when it does not have that energy. To my ears, EM sounds like jamming music, and the "fun" feeling of the jam is lost in the studio version. Studio instrumentals for me work best if it's composed like a song,  like New Millennium, Stream of Consciousness, or Overture 1928.

And yes, I will say that it might work BETTER as a live piece, but that doesn't make it bad as a studio experience. If it's not your thing, it's not your thing. You can skip it. But don't say "the should've just left it off the album all together," like, "If I don't enjoy listening to it on the album, then other people who do enjoy it shouldn't get to listen to it." Personally, until recently, I didn't even listen to live albums. I'd watch the DVDs, sure, but it wasn't until a few months ago, that I really started getting into and enjoying their live albums and bootlegs, and so it was only within the past few months that I got to enjoy stuff like Moon Bubbles or Bombay Vindaloo. Point is, some people just prefer listening to studio material over live material. They shouldn't be deprived of songs as a result.

Besides, all those other instrumentals you mentioned, I'd take The Dance of Eternity over any of them, studio or otherwise, and it's from the same basic camp as Enigma Machine. Wankfest in the best of ways, and I think every DT album needs to have at least one section like that, whether it's a stand alone instrumental like EM, or whether it's in the middle of a song, like with TMOLS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 08:13:19 AM
I rarely skip songs. I almost always listen to whole albums. Must be the effect of being in the casette tape generation. Anyway, I actually find the concept of a live exclusive really cool. My favorite Vai song is Whispering A Prayer, which is a live exclusive.

TDOE is indeed a wankfest but it did serve a musical purpose in the SFAM album as the on steroids homage to the instrumental section of Metropolis Pt. 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 17, 2014, 08:13:19 AM
I rarely skip songs. I almost always listen to whole albums. Must be the effect of being in the casette tape generation. Anyway, I actually find the concept of a live exclusive really cool. My favorite Vai song is Whispering A Prayer, which is a live exclusive.

TDOE is indeed a wankfest but it did serve a musical purpose in the SFAM album as the on steroids homage to the instrumental section of Metropolis Pt. 1.

Hey, I rarely skip songs too, when I listen to the albums, but I'll gladly listen to Enigma Machine when I listen to DT12. In fact, I'd much rather sit through the studio version of Enigma Machine, than through the studio version of Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen or Erotomania. I only ever listen to the latter two when I listen to the albums all the way through.

The funny thing is, in the case of DT, their live exclusives were always songs that I didn't think were anything that special. And in fact, those would be the songs I tend to skip or sometimes just tune right out. But maybe that's because DT actually puts their best stuff onto their albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 05:08:25 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

I wouldn't.

But you know, I have thought about that too. Let's say there was a hypothetical situation where for whatever reason MM decided to leave, or was asked to leave (let's hope neither ever happens), and they did ask MP to rejoin the band.
Would he have as much creative influence? Would he want to take over all the bootleg/setlist stuff that he did before, and if he would, would they let him? I mean, it would be a really weird situation. On the one hand, MP did basically run the band for 25 years, but on the other, since he left, it's been almost 5 years, and since then, JP has been running things quite differently, so DT is a bit of a different machine now, with more constant setlists, click tracks, pre-recorded backing vocals, etc. And for them to LET MP come back, I don't see him being in a position to say, "How about we just pick up where we left off?" But on the other hand, given his controlling and OCD nature, even if he did get to take care of bootlegs, Ytsejam stuff, etc., would he be able to function in the band without having control over setlists, and other executive decisions that JP makes these days?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 17, 2014, 05:26:53 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You have a better chance of agreeing  with Scheavo in the P&R Forum. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 18, 2014, 06:48:21 AM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2014, 06:48:21 AM
I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave.

I highly doubt it. I'm sure James would oppose MP coming back, but I don't think he'd leave the band. There have been some negativity brewing beneath the surface during the last couple of years of MP's tenure, but people always try to make it out to have been like some kind of deep seeded hatred between the two, and that's a little too extreme.

Either way, I highly doubt MM is going anywhere, so thankfully, we won't have to worry about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 07:58:32 AM
If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 08:11:41 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 07:58:32 AM
If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.

At this point, it's honestly tough to imagine MP being back in DT at all. Like I said, the way the band is run now has changed completely, so MP being in the band as it is now, would be a very different kind of presence than what it was before. It's not even a matter of whether they'd ask him back, I think it's more of a matter of whether he'd even accept.

Like, what could they possibly say? JP: "Hey Mike, how would you like to come back to Dream Theater, the band you started and ran for 25 years, on a probationary basis? Let's just be clear, we'll be deciding on the set lists, studio engineers and other executive decisions. We'll consider your input of course, but the final decisions are all up to me. But we'll be happy to have you back behind the kit."

I feel like MP would consider something like that a complete insult and not even agree to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on November 18, 2014, 08:17:55 AM
Even though MP says..."never say never" I will go ahead and say it. JP will never ask MP to rejoin. And I'll bet it has as much to do
with the spouses as it does with the band members. When you go through a very difficult time the spouses are there as protective
rocks, keeping your spirits up and looking out for your mental and physical well being. Grudges are held forever in these situations.
Add to that, JLB would say it's either him or me, make your choice. I'll put $$ on the table that if MM ever decides to split, they will
recruit a new drummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 18, 2014, 08:20:53 AM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns? :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on November 18, 2014, 08:36:19 AM
I know what you're driving at there as in MP's playing did start to sound a bit repetitive......but that is harsh!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 08:40:17 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 18, 2014, 08:20:53 AM
You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns? :P

No, I think he misses the ass and balls.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on November 18, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 07:58:32 AM
If something were to happen to MM or he were to leave, I don't think the guys in DT would ask MP back.  I think they would find a new drummer.

Definitely this.

Would love to see Bobby Jarzombek or Marco Minnemann behind the kit. Long shot (Jarzombek declined to audition, and Marco didn't want to be in the band) but their heart could change.

It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 18, 2014, 10:23:13 AM
Yeah, I would say if something were to happen and DT needed a drummer, thinking that MP has a shot of coming back would be 100% controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 11:00:53 AM
The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 18, 2014, 11:01:56 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 11:00:53 AM
The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.
I agree.

That being said, I don't see the current lineup being interested in doing a 'reunion' show or something to that extent. Those were MP things that aren't happening ever again, I think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 11:02:39 AM
You're probably right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 11:05:37 AM
I don't know about "ever", but most probably not in near future. We definitely won't be seeing a 30th anniversary reunion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 18, 2014, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 18, 2014, 11:01:56 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 11:00:53 AM
The only way I see MP drumming with the band again is in a guest spot at a live performance kind of like DS did at the WDADRU show.
I agree.

That being said, I don't see the current lineup being interested in doing a 'reunion' show or something to that extent. Those were MP things that aren't happening ever again, I think.

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 18, 2014, 11:02:39 AM
You're probably right.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 11:05:37 AM
I don't know about "ever", but most probably not in near future. We definitely won't be seeing a 30th anniversary reunion.

That's what they said. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 18, 2014, 11:13:28 AM
It probably depends a lot of their relationship, which seems nothing short of strained these days. Even though MP is somewhat OK with Rudess, as long as James LaBrie is in the band I can't see Portnoy hitting the stage with DT ever again (which is probably going to be until the band is officially done).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 11:21:50 AM
Personally, I don't care either way. It'd be cool to see MP on stage with them again some day, but I'm talking about like, when they're in their 60s or 70s, and don't make any more albums, at which stage, if they offered to do a reunion gig, he could either let it go and perform with them one or two songs for old time's sake, or end up a stubborn old man along the lines of Robert Plant. But that's like 10+ years down the line.
As it stands right now, MP has been in the band for way too long, so doing any kind of a reunion gig with him while they're still a recording band would only make MP fanboys hope against hope that it would lead to him coming back full time. And I highly doubt DT would want to plant that kind of a seed into people's brains.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 17, 2014, 05:08:25 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
more constant setlists, click tracks, pre-recorded backing vocals, etc.
This is a lot of why I would enjoy having MP back. I only got to see the band twice before they started doing this, and I prefer it (and have a shitty memory).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PROGdrummer on November 19, 2014, 06:14:35 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 18, 2014, 08:20:53 AM
Quote from: Skeever on November 17, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
Been thinking about it long and hard, and I think my controversial opinion is that I'd like to see MP rejoin DT. Not necessarily with the level of influence he had before, but with someone who is still enough of a creative contributor.

You missed his arsenal of four drum fill patterns? :P

FWIW, Mangini doesn't do much more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 19, 2014, 06:46:19 PM
Quote from: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
This is a lot of why I would enjoy having MP back. I only got to see the band twice before they started doing this, and I prefer it (and have a shitty memory).

Yes, but my whole point is, if MP did come back, there's absolutely no reason to believe that any of that stuff will revert back to how it was before he left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 19, 2014, 06:53:10 PM
Yeah, Black Clouds tour was barely a rotating setlist. It was a static setlist with one or two interchangeable parts. Plus, the majority of the band seem to like the way things are now much better, and I don't see MP ever coming back on less than democratic terms.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 19, 2014, 08:33:42 PM
Doesn't look like much variety to me. Not like previous tours.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 19, 2014, 10:31:27 PM
To be fair, those were shorter sets. Of course earlier tours had more variety, they were doing 3 hours a night. When you're doing a shorter set with two staples that already take up around 40 minutes of the set, there isn't going to be much room for variation. They did the best they could on that tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 20, 2014, 06:59:14 AM
I saw DT twice on that tour and both nights had completely different sets besides A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany, which as stated were the only two songs played every night.  So I would say there was a good amount of rotation, but not as much as some previous tours.  Also as mentioned, those shows were shorter since it was Progressive Nation, I think only 1.5 hour set lists.

Weird how that link to the concert archives is missing the NYC show from that tour, I think it was a day after the NJ show.  I remember that show very well because my "friend" ripped me off big time that night and we no longer became friends although I had a really good time at the concert.  Also they did Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa that night.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 20, 2014, 07:18:40 AM
Quote from: Skeever on November 19, 2014, 06:53:10 PM
Yeah, Black Clouds tour was barely a rotating setlist. It was a static setlist with one or two interchangeable parts. Plus, the majority of the band seem to like the way things are now much better, and I don't see MP ever coming back on less than democratic terms.

Yeah, I think your second point gets more to the heart of the matter. IF MP came back (not that he is), and even if he did want to jumble set lists again, there's nothing to say the band would give him that free reign. So saying, "I want MP to come back because I miss rotating setlists," is pointless. If people prefer his drumming to MM's, that's a different issue, and I can understand that. But if people prefer the way MP ran things, I wouldn't hold my breath.

The only way I see MP having actual control of Dream Theater again is if the band as it is now fell apart entirely, and DT was no more. And then MP and JP got together and decided to revive it together. But given the morale of the band as it is now, that's something else that I really don't see happening.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 21, 2014, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0)

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 18, 2014, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2014, 06:48:21 AM
I'm up for this as well, and I'm of the opinion that if they could cross the bridge of even getting to that point, they could figure out the setlists and what not.   Honestly, though, I think if that was ever to happen, John would be in the position of having to choose between James and MP.  I think James would leave.

I highly doubt it. I'm sure James would oppose MP coming back, but I don't think he'd leave the band. There have been some negativity brewing beneath the surface during the last couple of years of MP's tenure, but people always try to make it out to have been like some kind of deep seeded hatred between the two, and that's a little too extreme.

Either way, I highly doubt MM is going anywhere, so thankfully, we won't have to worry about it.

Speculation of course, but I don't think that particular acrimony is that exaggerated.  There were some clips of the selection process where James appeared downright giddy.

I think the spouses thing is a real thing, but I also think that is the one that is easiest to overcome. 

As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 09:36:46 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 09:36:46 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"

Two things:  one, it WASN'T just Mike, and I know that.   But I take the approach that a band is like a sports team, and changing one member by definition changes the dynamic of the whole.   For me, I though Mike's prodding/suggesting/haranguing (depending on what camp you are in) made James a better singer.  I just listened to ADTOE last night, and other than This is The Life (which is a top 5 song for me) there was nothing on there that made me go "Whoa!". 

Two, it's not any one thing.  Granted, I like the rotating setlists, not because I see multiple shows, but because 1) it creates a mystery before the show that doesn't otherwise exist nowadays, and 2) I think it makes them play better and with more fire, more urgency, and more diligence.  And I have every Ytsejam CD release (I was working on the DVDs before the break) so that is a plus.  It's just a general vibe and a general accessibility and openness that I think is missing.  I don't expect JP or JR or JLB or JMX to be something they're not.   That is unrealistic (even though the band themselves committed to just that at the time).  Again I go back to the sports analogy, and how its as much the way the parts interact as it is the parts themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 21, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 21, 2014, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0)

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.
Exactly - and if you were to look at the setlists from Australia on that tour (where they did do 2 hour sets), you'd see even more variation. In fact they did back-to-back shows in Melbourne, and only ANtR and TCoT were played both nights.
 
 
Quote from: goo-goo on November 18, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.
Agreed - as of now, I can't imagine MP coming back to DT full-time. However, the one way that I can imagine them extending the invitation to him is if their popularity really starts to dwindle and they find themselves playing the same venues they did in the 90s. At that point, JP might start to think about what it would take to bring back the audience, and at that point he might think a reunion with MP would do the trick (and I think it would to some degree). If the band was to invite MP back, there definitely would be some negotiating on the control aspect of who oversees what. I don't expect that things will be like they were when MP was first in the band, but I imagine that MP would require that he oversee certain things as part of his agreement to rejoin the band.

As a side point, I find it interesting that, at least on the surface, it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on November 21, 2014, 01:45:55 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple
With Now What?!, Steve Morse finally figured out how to play Purple. Before that, I always took issue with him as well. Great, great album. Better late than never. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 01:59:04 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Two things:  one, it WASN'T just Mike, and I know that.   But I take the approach that a band is like a sports team, and changing one member by definition changes the dynamic of the whole.   For me, I though Mike's prodding/suggesting/haranguing (depending on what camp you are in) made James a better singer.  I just listened to ADTOE last night, and other than This is The Life (which is a top 5 song for me) there was nothing on there that made me go "Whoa!". 

Two, it's not any one thing.  Granted, I like the rotating setlists, not because I see multiple shows, but because 1) it creates a mystery before the show that doesn't otherwise exist nowadays, and 2) I think it makes them play better and with more fire, more urgency, and more diligence.  And I have every Ytsejam CD release (I was working on the DVDs before the break) so that is a plus.  It's just a general vibe and a general accessibility and openness that I think is missing.  I don't expect JP or JR or JLB or JMX to be something they're not.   That is unrealistic (even though the band themselves committed to just that at the time).  Again I go back to the sports analogy, and how its as much the way the parts interact as it is the parts themselves.

Lol, two things. One, regarding what you said about James, I agree with you. But quite frankly, listening to BC&SL, there wasn't anything that made me go "Whoa!" either. And when it comes to vocal melodies, and JLB parts in general, I'd say DT12 is much better than BCSL. So I wouldn't give MP the entire credit for making JLB parts interesting. I'm sure he contributed, but I'd give just as much credit to JP and some to JLB for how interesting (or uninteresting) some of their vocal melodies may be.

Two, you're right, it is kind of like a sports team, but if anything, I'd say their dynamics (at least on stage) have been their best in a long time. It's no longer, "The Mike Portnoy show featuring these other guys." Now it feels so much more like a true collective effort. Honestly, I always liked MP, but I still felt like he hogged the spotlight a little too much. And whether you liked that or not, I don't think that's ever been what made DT special. Not to me anyway. So I guess that's just a matter of preference. I really prefer the band dynamic the way it is now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 21, 2014, 05:11:23 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 21, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 21, 2014, 06:12:39 AM
Quote from: Grizz on November 19, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Aside from The Final Frontier tour and the festivals, the only constants were A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. There was plenty of variation. See https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39025.0)

Right, I believe AROP was played pretty much every show, no? So the only constants were ANTR, AROP, and TCOT. They basically then switched out over half the show from night to night. The setlist wasn't very long, so that may add to the illusion that things weren't rotating, when in fact over half the show rotated on a nightly basis.
Exactly - and if you were to look at the setlists from Australia on that tour (where they did do 2 hour sets), you'd see even more variation. In fact they did back-to-back shows in Melbourne, and only ANtR and TCoT were played both nights.
 
 
Quote from: goo-goo on November 18, 2014, 09:48:13 AM
It's hard to imagine MP back in DT at this stage of the game..maybe for a one-time show...and that's a big MAYBE. But on a full time basis, I don't think so. Would be hard for the current DT to get out of their current comfort zone...Seems like they seem more relaxed than when MP was around.
Agreed - as of now, I can't imagine MP coming back to DT full-time. However, the one way that I can imagine them extending the invitation to him is if their popularity really starts to dwindle and they find themselves playing the same venues they did in the 90s. At that point, JP might start to think about what it would take to bring back the audience, and at that point he might think a reunion with MP would do the trick (and I think it would to some degree). If the band was to invite MP back, there definitely would be some negotiating on the control aspect of who oversees what. I don't expect that things will be like they were when MP was first in the band, but I imagine that MP would require that he oversee certain things as part of his agreement to rejoin the band.

As a side point, I find it interesting that, at least on the surface, it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.

Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on November 21, 2014, 05:11:23 PM
Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.

Well, you have to also accept that not everybody is as mellow and easy going as JP and the rest of DT. And the people Mike is working with now are all alumni of other bands, some of which were more influential than DT, so he can't just claim everything as "his baby" and tell them he's going to be calling the shots. It's a different dynamic than what it was with DT. But yes, you're right, it really seems like he just wants to unwind and have fun with some of these bands, just immerse himself in the music, and not so much the business.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 21, 2014, 05:54:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on November 21, 2014, 05:11:23 PM
Maybe Mike learned from his experience in Dream Theater and realized that he couldn't take on everything otherwise he will get burned out again.

Well, you have to also accept that not everybody is as mellow and easy going as JP and the rest of DT.

I think "easy going" might not be the most accurate.  I mean, I don't know JP well, but from having met him a few times, he strikes me as someone who definitely has strong opinions and is not shy at all about voicing them.  But he is also diplomatic and seems like he is a "pick your battles" kind of guy rather than trying to push every point, whereas I think Mike was more of the type to try to push everything.  I get the sense that, for example, if John had 10 ideas that he felt strongly about, he might pick the top 3 that were really important, make sure to push those hard, pick the next three and push them but be willing to back down, and just let the rest go in the interest of letting others get their ideas in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 06:02:48 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 21, 2014, 05:54:57 PM
I think "easy going" might not be the most accurate.  I mean, I don't know JP well, but from having met him a few times, he strikes me as someone who definitely has strong opinions and is not shy at all about voicing them.  But he is also diplomatic and seems like he is a "pick your battles" kind of guy rather than trying to push every point, whereas I think Mike was more of the type to try to push everything.  I get the sense that, for example, if John had 10 ideas that he felt strongly about, he might pick the top 3 that were really important, make sure to push those hard, pick the next three and push them but be willing to back down, and just let the rest go in the interest of letting others get their ideas in.

You're right, he has been described in the book by... Someone... One of the studio people he worked with, as being very opinionated. But I'm also sure that that kind of thing pertains a whole lot more to the music than anything else. To being insistent on having certain parts a certain way, or having his gear sounding just right.
But when MP quit and they were still getting the, "Mike Portnoy was doing all this stuff, and now he quit, is it hard taking over all that stuff for him?" JP did say something along the lines of, "Well, we all know how to do that stuff. It's not that we can't, it's just that Mike was really adamant and enthusiastic about doing that stuff, so we said, okay, if you really want to do it, then go ahead." So in that respect, it is kind of an easy going attitude, that probably came with the fact that MP did always try to go out of his way to do what was best for the band, so JP probably trusted MP, when it came to Ytsejam releases, setlists, and all that stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on November 21, 2014, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty
it doesn't appear that MP has absolute (or near absolute) control of any of the bands that he's currently involved in - all of them seem to be more like democracies or are directed by others in the band. With that being the case, I wonder why that couldn't have been the case in DT originally, so that MP didn't feel burned out like he did by 2010.
Maybe everyone feels that they learned from that mistake?
Plus, none of his other bands have been long term full time- he wants The Winery Dogs to become this, but who knows.

Also, if I saw them in Toad's Place and then they invited MP back I'd have a pretty happy adulthood.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 21, 2014, 08:49:15 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 09:36:46 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2014, 08:55:27 AM
As for the last, I would take out "thankfully".  For me, it's just not the same.   DT was a special band for me, separate from the pack, and now they are one of many pretty good bands I listen to.  I'm a realist, though, in that I don't pine for anything (if I was to, it would be Blackmore back into Purple, not Portnoy back into DT) but I don't typically play that game.  It is what it is.

Well, that is unfortunate. To me they're as special as ever. The past 2 albums have been a big improvement over BC&SL, and everything that made DT special, wasn't done because of Mike Portnoy alone. I do think they should pick up doing Ytsejam releases, although without rotating set lists or demos, there is little potential for that anyway. It's not like we're going to see or hear something we don't already see or hear on their official live releases. And everything else that we haven't heard on their ADTOE tour we got for Christmas, for free, so that was really awesome of them. The only other thing they could do better is documentary footage. Jordan Rudess seems to have really taken a liking to the camera, with all the Youtube stuff he's been doing, so I would love to see him record a full on behind the scenes making of documentary for their next album, the way MP did for Systematic Chaos. But aside from that, I'd say their standards of excellence are as great as ever, and their live shows are better than ever in terms of production and polish, if you ask me.
I can understand the non-rotating set lists might be a bit dull for someone who goes to see them live more than once or twice, but for everyone else, who only gets to see them once, it's better I think, because I won't be sitting here thinking, "Aww dammit, Montreal got Metropolis AND Hollow Years, meanwhile Toronto got The Great Debate and New Millennium. That sucks!"
I can't say I agree. I listened to Scenes and Six Degrees back to back today and, honestly, felt like I was listening to a different band.More and more, ToT feels like a massive miss for me, and while the last two albums were better than the three before them, they are still nothing compared to the glory days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 21, 2014, 08:53:19 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 21, 2014, 08:49:15 PM
I can't say I agree. I listened to Scenes and Six Degrees back to back today and, honestly, felt like I was listening to a different band.More and more, ToT feels like a massive miss for me, and while the last two albums were better than the three before them, they are still nothing compared to the glory days.

Yeah, but for most bands, their magnum opus comes very early on, and for DT, many people would say that's true too with Images and Words. The sheer fact that they were able to create such albums as Scenes and Six Degrees that managed to take the #1 place in the hearts of so many fans is nothing short of astounding, and doesn't happen very often at all. But to expect them to top even that, is a little unreasonable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 22, 2014, 07:38:15 AM
Sure, my non-controversial opinion is that DT's two best albums (Images and Awake) are better than most my favorite band's best two albums, and DT's NEXT best two albums (Scenes and SDOIT) are also better than most of my favorite band's best two albums. However, DT's third best two albums (ADTOE and DT12) would be near the bottom, if compared to the best two albums of other bands I love. So, there ya go. DT, only TWICE as good as most band. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 22, 2014, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Skeever on November 22, 2014, 07:38:15 AM
Sure, my non-controversial opinion is that DT's two best albums (Images and Awake) are better than most my favorite band's best two albums, and DT's NEXT best two albums (Scenes and SDOIT) are also better than most of my favorite band's best two albums. However, DT's third best two albums (ADTOE and DT12) would be near the bottom, if compared to the best two albums of other bands I love. So, there ya go. DT, only TWICE as good as most band.

Well, I agree with your first two points. DT's two best albums (I&W and SFAM) and DT's next best two albums, (SC and DT12) are better than most bands' best two albums.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on November 24, 2014, 01:28:46 PM
This is in response to a few posts from the IaW thread, but I thought that it would fit better in this one.

The UaGM solo is one of JP's weakest.

Yes, there are many cool melodic ideas in it. The pedal 5ths lick is amazing, and several others are pretty good. But they are not combined into a cohesive whole. Many of the faster phrases, such as the sweep-tapping section, sound like speed building exercises haphazardly thrown together. The flow is poor, which instantly makes it inferior to most of JP's other solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 24, 2014, 02:52:08 PM
That IS controversial. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 24, 2014, 07:54:59 PM
There's a first time for every opinion I guess.

And for once it wasn't me. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 24, 2014, 11:26:17 PM
Quote from: Randaran on November 24, 2014, 01:28:46 PM
This is in response to a few posts from the IaW thread, but I thought that it would fit better in this one.

The UaGM solo is one of JP's weakest.

Yes, there are many cool melodic ideas in it. The pedal 5ths lick is amazing, and several others are pretty good. But they are not combined into a cohesive whole. Many of the faster phrases, such as the sweep-tapping section, sound like speed building exercises haphazardly thrown together. The flow is poor, which instantly makes it inferior to most of JP's other solos.

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3z55uZJuF1qh59n0o1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 25, 2014, 01:05:28 AM
Didn't somebody say before that JP's solo in Another Day is better than the one in UaGM?

Was that me?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 08:32:31 AM
I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 25, 2014, 09:42:26 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 08:32:31 AM
I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?
Yes, I would think so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
That's not to say I don't like the UAGM solo. It is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 25, 2014, 12:04:22 PM
The UAGM solo was the first DT solo I attempted. Because it is so awesome.

The AIA solo isn't bad, but in hindsight it was JP's beginning of switching to mostly chromatic shredding in his solos, which is a bummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on November 25, 2014, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 08:32:31 AM
I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

Not to me, both are amazing. They are the first solos I'd point someone to if I wanted to introduce JP to them as a guitarist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 01:26:46 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 25, 2014, 12:04:22 PM
The UAGM solo was the first DT solo I attempted. Because it is so awesome.

Well, it is the solo that finally got UAGM to click for me. Before that, I considered it a generic filler by DT standards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 25, 2014, 05:59:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 25, 2014, 08:32:31 AM
I think JP's solo in As I Am is better than the one in UAGM. Does that count as controversial?

Not at all. They're both definitely among JP's best solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 25, 2014, 11:53:14 PM
Agreed. They're both pretty representative of his two major styles. UAGM with his jazz fusion infused playing with a nice groove and rhythmic variety, As I Am showcasing his ability to shred relentlessly while still (imo) being melodic about it and having coherency rather than a random flurry of notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 02:01:05 PM
My controversial opinion for the day:

I think The Looking Glass is a failure as a song. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the song as I love the whole album. But before the album came out, when JP was doing a song by song description of the album, he described wanting to make this song have a smiliar energy to a stadium rock song. And in that respect, I think it did not succeed at all, IMO. The one key aspect of stadium rock is that it's very Anthemic as a subgenre. Every stadium rock act I could think of from Bon Jovi, to Queen, to Europe was ridiculously catchy, and had a lot of (as much as I hate this term) singalongability. Even if you think it's cheesy, you have to admit, when it comes on, there's something about it that just stirs up some inert energy and gets the energy going. In terms of the energy and spirit, I'd say modern European Power Metal acts are the equivalent of old school Stadium Rock acts.
With The Looking Glass, it doesn't evoke that kind of energy for me at all. Great song, but it did not live up to the hype that JP built up by comparing it to stadium rock.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 26, 2014, 04:29:48 PM
If someone mentions a DT song I can normally think of what it's solo(s) sounds like. But I can't do it for Under a Glass Moon... Guess I'm not as familiar as I thought, I'll probably remember as soon as I hear it but it's never stood out enough for me to go wow, this is something I will remember.  :lol

As for The Looking Glass, I follow you there. I don't evoke any feelings of stadium rock from the song. Catchy song in it's own regard but maybe turned into something else along the way from how it was originally envisioned. Then again, I didn't see it live, but watching the more processed version on youtube or BTFW doesn't really evoke those feelings either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 04:41:55 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 26, 2014, 04:29:48 PM
If someone mentions a DT song I can normally think of what it's solo(s) sounds like. But I can't do it for Under a Glass Moon... Guess I'm not as familiar as I thought, I'll probably remember as soon as I hear it but it's never stood out enough for me to go wow, this is something I will remember.  :lol

Hearing it in its distilled form is how I learned to love it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVmq2C5kLoM

I also made it my ringtone for a while.  :lol

Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 26, 2014, 04:29:48 PM
As for The Looking Glass, I follow you there. I don't evoke any feelings of stadium rock from the song. Catchy song in it's own regard but maybe turned into something else along the way from how it was originally envisioned. Then again, I didn't see it live, but watching the more processed version on youtube or BTFW doesn't really evoke those feelings either.

Well, I saw it live, but yeah, it didn't just magically transform into something else entirely seeing it live, haha.

Honestly, when it comes to that kind of energy, DT doesn't have too many songs. But if I had to pick some that had that kind of an anthemic feel to them, Overture 1928 (in spite of not having vocals) instantly comes to mind, aside from that, most of their really energetic stuff is darker and more of a headbanging kind of energy than a Rocky Montage kind of energy, lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on November 26, 2014, 05:34:51 PM
That sounded a lot worse than on the studio version. I guess it's just the different guitar tones/different level of distortion?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 05:44:36 PM
Quote from: abydos on November 26, 2014, 05:34:51 PM
That sounded a lot worse than on the studio version. I guess it's just the different guitar tones/different level of distortion?

Plus he doesn't have a drummer to keep a proper rhythm, I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 02:01:05 PM
My controversial opinion for the day:

I think The Looking Glass is a failure as a song. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the song as I love the whole album. But before the album came out, when JP was doing a song by song description of the album, he described wanting to make this song have a smiliar energy to a stadium rock song. And in that respect, I think it did not succeed at all, IMO. The one key aspect of stadium rock is that it's very Anthemic as a subgenre. Every stadium rock act I could think of from Bon Jovi, to Queen, to Europe was ridiculously catchy, and had a lot of (as much as I hate this term) singalongability. Even if you think it's cheesy, you have to admit, when it comes on, there's something about it that just stirs up some inert energy and gets the energy going. In terms of the energy and spirit, I'd say modern European Power Metal acts are the equivalent of old school Stadium Rock acts.
With The Looking Glass, it doesn't evoke that kind of energy for me at all. Great song, but it did not live up to the hype that JP built up by comparing it to stadium rock.

While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 06:44:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description. :lol

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 26, 2014, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 06:44:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description. :lol

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.

I think we're past the 'era' of stadium rock hits, so it doesn't matter much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 06:44:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
While I agree with all of that, I don't think that makes it a failure of a song, that just makes it a failure of a description. :lol

What I meant is, it failed to accomplish what it originally intended. It's like trying to make a summer action blockbuster, and ending up with a serious crime thriller.

Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 07:33:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 07:07:26 PM
Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.

Well, the end result is great, but when JP was talking about it, all I could think is, "Oh man, I can't wait to hear DT do an actual anthem that will just instantly pump me up full of energy and excitement!" And I mean, DT by default does that to me anyway, I was just hoping for something that would take it to the next level. It doesn't have to be a stadium rock 'hit', but for example, Overture 1928 has that effect, it just instills excitement. About To Crash Reprise, as soon as that comes on, it just pumps you right up. When the quiet part at the beginning of Octavarium ends and the orchestra comes in, is also one of those moments. I was hoping for something like that, only more rock driven, and catchy. Heck, even the part after the orchestral bit of IT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 07:33:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 26, 2014, 07:07:26 PM
Eh, it's just semantics to me. It's obviously not stadium rock, but I'm not big on using labels to judge something. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't change the end result, which is all I care about.

Well, the end result is great, but when JP was talking about it, all I could think is, "Oh man, I can't wait to hear DT do an actual anthem that will just instantly pump me up full of energy and excitement!" And I mean, DT by default does that to me anyway, I was just hoping for something that would take it to the next level. It doesn't have to be a stadium rock 'hit', but for example, Overture 1928 has that effect, it just instills excitement. About To Crash Reprise, as soon as that comes on, it just pumps you right up. When the quiet part at the beginning of Octavarium ends and the orchestra comes in, is also one of those moments. I was hoping for something like that, only more rock driven, and catchy. Heck, even the part after the orchestral bit of IT.

Well, take the description of JP with a grain of salt. He might actually be just messing with the interviewer with that description because the song's lyrics is the most anti-stadium rock ever. :p

"You are caught up in your gravity
Glorifying stardom
Singing your own praise."

Obviously not an anthem.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 08:24:47 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 08:14:42 PM
Well, take the description of JP with a grain of salt. He might actually be just messing with the interviewer with that description because the song's lyrics is the most anti-stadium rock ever. :p

"You are caught up in your gravity
Glorifying stardom
Singing your own praise."

Obviously not an anthem.  :lol

Yeah, but he writes lyrics after composing the music, so his mentality when writing the music may not have been the same as when writing the lyrics. Although if the music spoke to him in such a way as to write lyrics like these, he should have noticed that his vision for this song did not go as planned, lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
I think what he described as arena-rock like is the major riff only, not the song itself, which he described as a bit dark.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 08:44:59 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
I think what he described as arena-rock like is the major riff only, not the song itself, which he described as a bit dark.

Even if that's the case, considering that the main riff starts out the song, it really didn't have that kind of an effect on me. Like I said, I was expecting something more along the lines of About To Crash Reprise, or something similar to that. Just something that immediately instills excitement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
About to Crash Reprise is a different animal.  :metal I believe JP was clear that what he was aiming for was like Rush's Limelight and Spirit of the Radio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 09:11:16 PM
So basically, we should never expect JP to accomplish what he's aiming for?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 09:11:16 PM
So basically, we should never expect JP to accomplish what he's aiming for?  :lol

Not really. Because, to my ears, his intro to TLG accomplishes just the same effect as the major riff of those two Rush songs which he mentioned as benchmarks. About To Crash Reprise, again, is different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 09:43:17 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
Not really. Because, to my ears, his intro to TLG accomplishes just the same effect as the major riff of those two Rush songs which he mentioned as benchmarks. About To Crash Reprise, again, is different.

Oh sorry, I thought you meant that his goal with About to Crash reprise was being compared to those two Rush songs.
Yeah, I guess you're right. But still, the moment he said, "Stadium Rock", I immediately imagined riffage similar to Bon Jovi or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 09:55:03 PM
Here's an excerpt from one of the interviews:

"‘The Looking Glass‘ is generating quite a few grins, just because of what feels like an unmistakable nod to Rush. If you guys ever wanted to tour a tribute to ‘80s Rush, I think that track might demonstrate that you could pull it off.

Oh, cool! Rush is one of the common denominators in our band as far as a band that everybody loves and grew up with and was a big influence. You know, Alex has this unbelievable gift for creating these big arena rock guitar riffs that are in a major key and somehow just get the audience pumped from the first note. Things like ‘The Spirit of Radio’ and ‘Limelight’ and you name it — it’s a challenge to do that, because it’s not easy and you want it to be original and unique and have that kind of conviction and power."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 26, 2014, 10:23:38 PM
The one I got goes, "And the attitude behind that song was to create a big kind of arena rock powerful riff that was in a major key."
So like I said, as soon as I heard that, I was expecting something that really got my energy going, and in the case of those Rush songs, they do manage to do that, although on a smaller level than actual Arena rock.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 27, 2014, 12:51:30 AM
Way too much weight being put on JP's words here. I don't care what he said about TLG, for me it's a pretty enjoyable song "stadium anthem" or not. Artists are always going to have a somewhat weird view on their own work. I think the best course of action is to take their descriptions with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 27, 2014, 05:42:14 AM
I saw that quote, and listened to the song, and it fits, for me.

I just don't like the song all that much.  Definitely the least of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 08:03:23 AM
Quote from: Mosh on November 27, 2014, 12:51:30 AM
Way too much weight being put on JP's words here. I don't care what he said about TLG, for me it's a pretty enjoyable song "stadium anthem" or not. Artists are always going to have a somewhat weird view on their own work. I think the best course of action is to take their descriptions with a grain of salt.

I guess I'll have to keep that in mind from now on. But it's still not nearly as bad as when Mike Portnoy described BC&SL as... What did he say? Something along the lines of it's like having A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Learning to Live, Pull Me Under and The Glass Prison all on one album. Now THAT'S setting people up for one major letdown.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mrbigbri on November 27, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
- I found it annoying on the last tour how James tried to sing the last verse of Space Dye Vest all "high".  Would have been much cooler to sing it like he originally did.

- Jordan's added solo over the last riff in The Mirror is un-needed and takes away from the heaviness of that powerful riff

Brian
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on November 27, 2014, 10:49:53 AM
I don't think those are very controversial. Especially the way Jordan butchers The Mirror (and he has been doing so for years). That part just sounds like he's facerolling on the keyboard. But I could be wrong.

Did you see SDV live or just watched on Youtube and BTFW? Initially I thought it was pretty bad too, but when I saw it I changed my mind. It fit very well with the energy of the show prior, very much up in your face.

Also, welcome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 10:53:33 AM
Naw, I love Jordans keyboard stuff at the end of The Mirror. The original was okay for the album, but I don't think it's as interesting, especially in a live setting.

And the current live version of Space-Dye Vest kicks ass!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on November 27, 2014, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 08:03:23 AM
Quote from: Mosh on November 27, 2014, 12:51:30 AM
Way too much weight being put on JP's words here. I don't care what he said about TLG, for me it's a pretty enjoyable song "stadium anthem" or not. Artists are always going to have a somewhat weird view on their own work. I think the best course of action is to take their descriptions with a grain of salt.

I guess I'll have to keep that in mind from now on. But it's still not nearly as bad as when Mike Portnoy described BC&SL as... What did he say? Something along the lines of it's like having A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Learning to Live, Pull Me Under and The Glass Prison all on one album. Now THAT'S setting people up for one major letdown.
Yea, exactly. And he probably genuinely believed that. When you're that close to the work it's impossible to hear it the way an outsider would.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 01:05:00 PM
I don't care! I want my DT stadium rock anthem!  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 27, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
My controversial opinion of the day would be, I'm not sure how good it is for James (and DT in extension) to participate in something like that "Metal All-Stars". The whole thing just has a bit of a has-been feeling to it, and the videos kinda show third-class talent to be standing on stage. James is by no means third-class, but there is a danger of association I think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 08:39:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 27, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
My controversial opinion of the day would be, I'm not sure how good it is for James (and DT in extension) to participate in something like that "Metal All-Stars". The whole thing just has a bit of a has-been feeling to it, and the videos kinda show third-class talent to be standing on stage. James is by no means third-class, but there is a danger of association I think.

Has he ever done it before? I mean, maybe he didn't know what he was getting himself into.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 27, 2014, 08:44:06 PM
Not to my knowledge, no. He's done other non-DT live stuff before (e.g. like singing opera) but that always felt like part of his solo work. This thing feels a lot like MP's "Metal Allegiance", which feels equally has-been.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 27, 2014, 08:57:26 PM
The thing is, this thing has some young guns on it too. Kobra Paige for example is really young, and her band's career is just starting to take off. Honestly, it's not the idea of the show itself that's bad, its (obviously) the execution. Whoever organized it, really needed to set aside more rehearsal time, if that's even possible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 28, 2014, 02:51:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 27, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
My controversial opinion of the day would be, I'm not sure how good it is for James (and DT in extension) to participate in something like that "Metal All-Stars". The whole thing just has a bit of a has-been feeling to it, and the videos kinda show third-class talent to be standing on stage. James is by no means third-class, but there is a danger of association I think.
I'm not worried about James' reputation, but I thought it was weird for him to take part in this. He's the singer of an active relevant band that still tours the world and brings in a comfortable amount of income, while most of the musicians involved are ex-members of 80s bands whose glory days are behind and who do these kinds of tours for the paycheck.
Quote from: mrbigbri on November 27, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
- I found it annoying on the last tour how James tried to sing the last verse of Space Dye Vest all "high".  Would have been much cooler to sing it like he originally did.

- Jordan's added solo over the last riff in The Mirror is un-needed and takes away from the heaviness of that powerful riff
I was ok with the changes in S-DV, but I agree that the extra solo in The Mirror is pointless. It doesn't ruin the song for me, but it's just unnecessary when there already is a good keyboard part in the outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: aprilethereal on November 29, 2014, 06:52:35 AM
I love the changes they did to SDV this tour, the studio version is perfect as a closer to the album whereas the live version manages to create the same atmosphere while being much more energetic and fitting for a live show. Both are perfect for their context. :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 29, 2014, 07:36:32 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 27, 2014, 08:32:27 PM
My controversial opinion of the day would be, I'm not sure how good it is for James (and DT in extension) to participate in something like that "Metal All-Stars". The whole thing just has a bit of a has-been feeling to it, and the videos kinda show third-class talent to be standing on stage. James is by no means third-class, but there is a danger of association I think.

No question. I feel the same way. He would've been better served to do a solo tour, no?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on November 29, 2014, 09:38:21 AM
Quote from: TAC on November 29, 2014, 07:36:32 AM
No question. I feel the same way. He would've been better served to do a solo tour, no?

While it probably wouldn't have gotten as much of a crowd, at least it wouldn't hurt. Honestly, because of these musicians, I highly doubt anyone is going to say, "Man, I should check his album out."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 29, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 08:14:42 PM
Well, take the description of JP with a grain of salt. He might actually be just messing with the interviewer with that description because the song's lyrics is the most anti-stadium rock ever. :p

"You are caught up in your gravity
Glorifying stardom
Singing your own praise."

Obviously not an anthem.  :lol

Well, if he did write those lyrics with the original premise in mind, then it'd have to deliberately have been written ironically. Funnily enough Limelight as fairly ironic lyrics from Peart's point of view.

Quote from: erwinrafael on November 26, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
Not really. Because, to my ears, his intro to TLG accomplishes just the same effect as the major riff of those two Rush songs which he mentioned as benchmarks. About To Crash Reprise, again, is different.

I agree it's different, but I would put About to Crash Reprise riff in a similar category to The Looking Glass at least by DT standards. Major riffage and whatnot. But I always considered the ATC(r) to remind me more of a Van Halen riff actually.

Quote from: mrbigbri on November 27, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
- I found it annoying on the last tour how James tried to sing the last verse of Space Dye Vest all "high".  Would have been much cooler to sing it like he originally did.

I was iffy on this at first too but it grew on me. Reminds me of what they did with The Silent Man back in 95 with the 'electric' version and Hollow years they did a similar thing with the more 'epic' final chorus. I think it works for SDV in the live enviroment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on November 30, 2014, 05:51:56 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 29, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
I agree it's different, but I would put About to Crash Reprise riff in a similar category to The Looking Glass at least by DT standards. Major riffage and whatnot. But I always considered the ATC(r) to remind me more of a Van Halen riff actually.

About to Crash is totally inspired by Grand Finale from 2112.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 08:27:43 PM
One opinion I came up with is that there are certain aspects where I feel like the entire band (as people) really lack character. Re-reading the book, I couldn't help but notice it, and it's been bothering me since I heard that Portnoy wanted to come back into the band.
They never deal with these things in person. It feels like they're afraid of confrontation. When it comes to firing their members (all the way back to their 1980s days), they've either gotten their managers to do it, or they've done it over the phone. Even when it came time to give LaBrie that ultimatum in 2002, they did it over the phone, instead of in person. And when Portnoy asked to come back into the band, he said that it were DT's attorneys that had to tell him that he can't come back.
I think it really shows a lack of character on their part. Yes, these kinds of things can be difficult, and uncomfortable, but you man up and you do it! You sit down, you look the person in the eye, and you tell them how it is. Personally, I think that's the only way to do it, and anything less is a bit disrespectful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 22, 2014, 09:07:16 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 08:27:43 PM
One opinion I came up with is that there are certain aspects where I feel like the entire band (as people) really lack character. Re-reading the book, I couldn't help but notice it, and it's been bothering me since I heard that Portnoy wanted to come back into the band.
They never deal with these things in person. It feels like they're afraid of confrontation. When it comes to firing their members (all the way back to their 1980s days), they've either gotten their managers to do it, or they've done it over the phone. Even when it came time to give LaBrie that ultimatum in 2002, they did it over the phone, instead of in person. And when Portnoy asked to come back into the band, he said that it were DT's attorneys that had to tell him that he can't come back.
I think it really shows a lack of character on their part. Yes, these kinds of things can be difficult, and uncomfortable, but you man up and you do it! You sit down, you look the person in the eye, and you tell them how it is. Personally, I think that's the only way to do it, and anything less is a bit disrespectful.

With James and Derek, it had to do with not living in the same place. I know with Derek they decided it was less awkward to do it over conference call than have him fly out from LA to NYC just to get fired and have to fly back. To make James come down from Toronto, while not as far, would have been silly too. Those were actually done for the convenience of Derek and James. As for Mike's situation, the reason he couldn't come back was because Mangini had already signed his contract. The attorneys weren't likely filling Portnoy in on the legal aspects that the band probably couldn't explain as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2014, 09:16:35 PM
I agree, it's not always practical to meet in person. I think doing it over the phone is a perfectly reasonable way to do these things, especially when the alternative is making someone take a long commute just to give them crap news.
Doing it via text/email would be bad, but phone is fine in these situations.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 09:25:39 PM
Well, if we're talking like, from Canada, like LaBrie, maybe that is a bit excessive, but guys like Charlie Dominici, who lived in the same general area as them, there was no reason why they couldn't have done it in person. Or at least did it themselves, not ask their manager to.

With Derek, they already knew they were going to fire him even as they still performed with him, so they could've had the talk after the last show they did, before dispersing.

As for Portnoy, that's still not an excuse. They could've had their attorneys present, or had them follow up with the details later, but for someone like Petrucci, to not be able to tell Portnoy personally, "Listen man, you know you're my brother, but here's the situation.." is pretty weak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2014, 09:32:22 PM
I don't know, it's all too easy for us to criticize as couch coaches, but we only know a fraction of all of what happened with the MP split, so I'm not going to judge anyone for it. I think DT handled the situation about as best they could under the circumstances, based on what little we know.
In the case of Charlie, that was perhaps a little weak, but they were young and new to the whole thing. I can excuse them for that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 22, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
IIRC, Portnoy quit over the phone, not in person, so if he couldn't extend the courtesy of telling guys he had been in a band with for decades that he was leaving, then why did he deserve the courtesy of them telling him in person that he couldn't come back?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 09:39:51 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 22, 2014, 09:32:22 PM
In the case of Charlie, that was perhaps a little weak, but they were young and new to the whole thing. I can excuse them for that one.

Meh. Back when I was in my former band, and we had to fire one of our members, we did it ourselves, to his face, difficult as it was. I just think it's the only right thing to do, unless you're firing someone you KNOW has a temper and might start a fight. And even then, Metallica had the balls to fire Dave Mustaine in person.

Quote from: KevShmev on December 22, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
IIRC, Portnoy quit over the phone, not in person, so if he couldn't extend the courtesy of telling guys he had been in a band with for decades that he was leaving, then why did he deserve the courtesy of them telling him in person that he couldn't come back?

But at least he said it himself, to them, right? Not through third parties?

But you are right, and when I'm talking about them firing Charlie, or Derek, or whatever, Portnoy is included in my criticism as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on December 22, 2014, 11:26:05 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 08:27:43 PM
Even when it came time to give LaBrie that ultimatum in 2002, they did it over the phone, instead of in person.

I have no idea what is being talked about here.  I guess I have to buy the book.

And there is my controversial opinion about the band.  Outside their music, they seem like boring people.  So even with this 2002 teaser, I probably still won't buy the book.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 11:31:52 PM
Quote from: Calvin6s on December 22, 2014, 11:26:05 PM
I have no idea what is being talked about here.  I guess I have to buy the book.
Well, they weren't happy with his performance, and he just seemed like he was kind of phoning it in, and he wasn't doing anything to improve his voice. So they basically told him to either get his act together, or get out.

Quote from: Calvin6s on December 22, 2014, 11:26:05 PM
And there is my controversial opinion about the band.  Outside their music, they seem like boring people.  So even with this 2002 teaser, I probably still won't buy the book.

Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on December 23, 2014, 12:44:52 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 11:31:52 PM
Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)

I've been waiting for it to be released in e-book format, but that doesn't seem like it is ever going to happen.

My DT fan credentials are pretty tight, but I really hate paper books.  Despite all that, I went to the website and paid $21 for a paperback.  It isn't a fortune, but I don't think I've ever paid that much for a paperback book outside of required college books.

I feel like I'm about to read the Phantom Menace of rock biographies.

Call to order.  And now to move onto the pressing matter of LaBrie's gut.  The bylaws associated with the articles of incorporation clearly state 100% of the belt buckle must be visible at all times of fan interaction.  In the event said belt buckle becomes obscured by any band member's obesity, chapter seven of the charter shall authorize a blockade of such member's calorie intake until such offense has been rectified.  If this does not remedy the violation in a timely manner, a vote shall be taken on further association with the entity Majesty dba Dream Theater, barring a Petrucci veto.  Myung has abstained.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on December 23, 2014, 08:00:10 AM
i've always thought jlb looked kind of chubby but didn't know if it was just him being a large dude
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 23, 2014, 09:35:39 AM
Most likely attorneys dealt with MP because by that time the legalities of his exit were already in place, not to mention the legalities of MM joining, and there was attorney's advice to handle things. 

It's the same thing in a divorce situation.  At a certain point, it is attorneys talking to attorneys, for legal reasons. 

The other stuff was just practicality and business, not a reflection on anyone's character at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 23, 2014, 10:53:16 AM
Also, quite likely the boot call (snigger) came shortly after a meeting of the remaining band members. You meet, come to the conclusion that it's the right thing to do, and then you obviously don't want to wait until next band practice. You want it over with. So you call by phone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 23, 2014, 11:13:54 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 22, 2014, 11:31:52 PM

Quote from: Calvin6s on December 22, 2014, 11:26:05 PM
And there is my controversial opinion about the band.  Outside their music, they seem like boring people.  So even with this 2002 teaser, I probably still won't buy the book.

Well, they're no "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" type of people (well, there were drugs), but whether you think that's boring or not, it's still a very interesting book, and anyone claiming to be a DT fan should own it. Especially now that it's available for a reasonable price (it still is, right?)

I would much rather hang out with the guys in DT than Motley Crue
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 23, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
I have to agree that Lifting Shadows (at least the first several chapters) is a pretty great and insightful book for DT fans, especially those of us who weren't around for the early days.

Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing, but I guess that's to be expected. In the early chapters you're getting history from a lot of different sources inside and outside the band. In the more recent chapters, it feels like you're getting the band framing their own history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 23, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
I actually felt that started earlier in the book. I had the impression that anything from JR on was deemed the "happy family" period where everything went smoothly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 23, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
Even the stuff about tossing James? I thought that section was 1.) really ludicrous and 2.) made MP look really bad (especially coming off the chapter where they talk about MP's own turmoil). But it was still included. They could have just as easily swept it under the rug since as far as I know nobody knew about it until Lifting Shadows. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on December 23, 2014, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 23, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing

I was already prepared to expect that act 3 would be the "everything is falling into place" PR stuff.  Seems like every band does it.  Not just in books.

Then time passes and Act 3 becomes Act 2.  That's partly why I haven't felt a need to buy the book, unlike their albums and live releases.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2014, 04:50:52 PM
Quote from: Calvin6s on December 23, 2014, 04:30:38 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 23, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
Around the chapters for Octavarium / Black Clouds is where it starts to feel more like a pure PR thing

I was already prepared to expect that act 3 would be the "everything is falling into place" PR stuff.  Seems like every band does it.  Not just in books.

Then time passes and Act 3 becomes Act 2.  That's partly why I haven't felt a need to buy the book, unlike their albums and live releases.

Well, unless you intimately know their early history, right down to the nitty gritty, then it's still an incredibly insightful and interesting 2/3 of a book.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 05:05:46 AM
The latest version I have goes up to Black Clouds, but not as far as Portnoy leaving.

The whole Black Clouds chapter is soooo evidently PR. In fact, it's even called "The Best of Times" and, shit you not, here's a quote from the final pages.

Quote
Mike Portnoy: "In terms of goals for the band, there's still so much room and places to go. It would be nice to see how long we can sustain this, it would be nice for this to keep going ten or twenty years. But also there are still places for us to grow... there are still these little goals that are constantly hanging over our heads.

Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 06:25:00 AM
Quote from: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 05:05:46 AM
Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.

Well, in spite of the thing with Portnoy happening, he wasn't wrong about the band itself. They did have a major upward swing, so musically and creatively, he wasn't exactly wrong... It's just ironic that he wasn't a part of that picture.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 06:25:00 AM
Quote from: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 05:05:46 AM
Of course, the whole theme of the section is that the band "aren't close to peaking" and preparing for "another upward swing". It's a feel good chapter, meant to tell the fans that everything is great in DT land. We saw the real story, though, about a year after the book was published. That's why I haven't bought any editions since. I'm just not interesting in reading PR statements.

Well, in spite of the thing with Portnoy happening, he wasn't wrong about the band itself. They did have a major upward swing, so musically and creatively, he wasn't exactly wrong... It's just ironic that he wasn't a part of that picture.

Did they really have an upswing? They seemed to be personally re-energized by Mangini, and they certainly got a lot of media attention - but it wasn't all good. Does attention = upswing?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 01:22:57 PM
Did they really have an upswing? They seemed to be personally re-energized by Mangini, and they certainly got a lot of media attention - but it wasn't all good. Does attention = upswing?

Well, it's the right kind of attention. It's not like Gene Simmons attention where someone ran their mouth about something that's none of their business and became the center of Rock headlines. They're getting attention because of the music they're creating and the shows they're putting on, and that kind of attention I would say qualifies as an upswing. And 2 Grammy nominations might not mean much, but it's still better than no Grammy nominations at all.
Although I did mainly mean musically and creatively they've been on an upswing. Even though I loved SC, between that and BC&SL, it showed a trend of them going into an unfavorable overly heavy and less melodic direction, and the past 2 albums have been a huge improvement, and a step into a much better direction, if you ask me.
I mean, is there any indication that they're NOT on an upswing?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 03:16:38 PM
If you believe Google Trends, they definitely are not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 03:34:52 PM
Which I don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 07:12:42 PM
Well, show me an objective measure that shows they're on the upswing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 07:26:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.
To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single  :lol

Record sales? Concert sales? I saw DT on the Black Clouds tour, and they've played the exact same venue for the ADTOE and DT12 tours. They played the biggest venue for the SC tour. I don't think they are anywhere near approaching "MSG Main Stage" (MP's stretch goal). Maybe that was part of his unspoken rationale. Maybe he'd seen the band had "peaked" and was ready to move on to something larger (like A7X).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 07:40:24 PM
To me, the Grammy nomination was little more than a marketing tool. They had as much chance of winning the Grammy as Liechtenstein had of winning the World Cup. They were going against Wasting Lights on one, IIRC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 07:40:24 PM
To me, the Grammy nomination was little more than a marketing tool. They had as much chance of winning the Grammy as Liechtenstein had of winning the World Cup. They were going against Wasting Lights on one, IIRC.

Like I said, I still think it means a hell of a lot more than Google search statistics.
I mean, Grammy nominations aside, the publicity they've been getting, the media attention... If that doesn't mean much, then there's not much more I can say. But it's all we have to go by, unless there are sales statistics out there somewhere. We do know their peak chart positions and they've been consistently stellar since 2009. If they're not getting more commercially successful, then they're at the very least holding a very strong position, which is a lot better than it has been since before their Roadrunner days. So MP saying they were on an upswing wasn't exactly inaccurate. Maybe if they did the hiatus like he planned and then made a big comeback, then they would've had an even bigger upswing, as he envisioned. JP didn't want to take that chance, so we'll never know. But JP's choice, carrying on without MP has if nothing else, maintained DT's success and only upped their popularity, which is certainly not a down swing.

Also, the "up swing" and "down swing" terminology has officially lost all meaning to me after this conversation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 08:09:22 PM
Dtf.org use has continuously declined too. Like, I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who's been around long enough that the forum is a shadow of the bustle it used to be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 08:16:19 PM
Well, I haven't had that much of a history with this forum, but it always seems to boom in the time of big announcements and releases. That's all I have to go by.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 08:25:43 PM
In the SFAM-ToT days, a new album completely dominated the first page of the DT subforum. These days it's a few active threads at best, and BTFW was one thread only.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 08:50:37 PM
But what does that mean? I mean, back then they were getting no label support whatsoever, and the only way they were able to persevere was MP hustling his ass off to stay in touch with and appease the fans. Maybe that lack of label support correlated to fans being able to only get their share of DT related news and publicity through forums? I honestly couldn't say. But that is one aspect where they're less active now, is fan interactions. I mean, I think they do a well enough job with Facebook updates and such, but back then, MP was so much more hands on with the DT fanbase, that it probably encouraged fans to be more active in DT's online community in general. That could be it, but it's all speculation, one way or the other.
All I know is that if the band is full of shit when they say that it was when they got their proper support from RR that things have been better for them than they had been in a long time, then they're definitely doing a good job of deceiving everyone, because from the kind of label support and publicity they're getting, the quality of their performances, as well as their live production, and the band's overall morale, it all spells upswing to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 09:11:42 PM
I think it all depends on the angle from which your looking at it.
To me, DT has long been (at least to may, say, 6 years) in the classic "post-peak" period. Interest in the band was slowly waning, and while the MP/MM shakeup was the proverbial adrenaline syringe into the heart, the slow decent resumed soon after. I think to a lot of people, ADTOE showed potential, and the hope was that DT12 was going to boldly open the doors that were slightly ajar in ADTOE. I think DT12 was a rather disappointing "Oh." when it fell back into the old patterns again. *Especially* when the whole thing was preempted by quotes like "MM unleashed", and reality was a plastic electronic drum kit sound with mediocre drumming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 09:17:39 PM
Well, that being the case for some, for others, myself included, as a result of DT12, I haven't been this excited about DT's musical future since the disappointment that was BC&SL. When that album came out, that's when I largely became paranoid that their future music was going to lose me, and while ADTOE was a step in the right direction, I still found certain aspects about it lacking interest, but with DT12, hearing it was like a breath of fresh air, and I can't wait to hear the next album as a result. And I know I'm not the only one who felt this way.

As for the general waning interest, again, their peak chart positions suggest otherwise, so I don't know what it all means.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2014, 09:21:20 PM
Peak chart position means nothing.  Sales is what matters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 09:24:28 PM
TGP, I think your excitement about DT12 is not shared by too many, even just judging by this forum.
I have to say though, I have to give RR some kudos for pushing DT into the public.
But, in the end, it's a bit like squeezing the remainder of toothpaste very hard. DT has not progressed into any meaningful new direction in the last 10 years, small gimmicks (like the IT string section) notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 24, 2014, 09:21:20 PM
Peak chart position means nothing.  Sales is what matters.

Well, unless those statistics are available, peak positions are all we have to go by.

Quote from: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 09:24:28 PM
TGP, I think your excitement about DT12 is not shared by too many, even just judging by this forum.
I have to say though, I have to give RR some kudos for pushing DT into the public.
But, in the end, it's a bit like squeezing the remainder of toothpaste very hard. DT has not progressed into any meaningful new direction in the last 10 years, small gimmicks (like the IT string section) notwithstanding.

Who cares? They don't have to completely reinvent their style to retain their popularity.
We'll see how it goes. All I'm saying is that MP's statement about the upswing wasn't pulled completely out of his ass. There is basis to it, especially from the band's perspective, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 09:35:22 PM
As a completely random data point, the single most successful thread on this subforum is the one where people can voice their criticism about DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2014, 09:40:16 PM
You can't go by peak.  You may have the highest sales that 1 week at 100,000 album then the next week 3 album 3 sells 250,000.  So if you come out the week after, your position number is lower.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 09:41:15 PM
Hey, I've spoken my share of criticisms regarding DT in this thread too, but I'll still say that I love the band and am devoted to them as much as ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 24, 2014, 09:44:33 PM
Nothing wrong with that.

BTW Rumbo, I don't think the drumming by MM was mediocre.  The sound was.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 10:00:07 PM
I think the drumming was well executed, but it's a long shot from the rhythms that MP created on the earlier albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 25, 2014, 04:02:46 AM
Quote from: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 07:26:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.
To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single  :lol
Grammy nominations have nothing to do with sales (which seems to be how you are defining "successful"), especially in the lesser-publicized categories, like the one that DT was nominated in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 25, 2014, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 25, 2014, 04:02:46 AM
Quote from: Skeever on December 24, 2014, 07:26:33 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
I did mention the Grammy nominations, didn't I? I think those are worth a lot more than google statistics.
To me the grammy nod was more about their entire career, though. It was not at all indicative of the song being particularly successful as a single. Pretty sure OTBOA was about as successful as any other DT single  :lol
Grammy nominations have nothing to do with sales (which seems to be how you are defining "successful"), especially in the lesser-publicized categories, like the one that DT was nominated in.
Oh, I don't think success is necessarily defined by sales, and DT have been a very successful band. That goes without saying. But if you read the final chapter of Lifting Shadows from the 2nd edition, it's very obvious that by "upswing" some members (certainly Mike) mean the band getting bigger, playing larger venues, and so on. That is not something that happened, and I do wonder if maybe Mike saw DT's "glass ceiling" and wanted to throw himself into A7X instead. Just speculation. 

More recently, I tend to view the move to Roadrunner as DT's last big move. These days, I think they're fully exposed to every market that would possibly show interest in them. When DT went to RR, myself and others believed they could be an album away from their next big breaking-through. These days, it seems like that second break-through is never going to happen. They'll continue sustaining as they always have, but they'll likely never be making it to the top 40 and playing MSG main stage. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 26, 2014, 06:49:23 AM
I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 26, 2014, 06:53:45 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 26, 2014, 06:49:23 AM
I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.
Neither was I, but Mike specifically states that as a goal for the band moving forward. That why I'm saying, I wonder if personally he would say those kinds of things, but secretly he had a feel that he'd need to join or start another band to get there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on December 26, 2014, 07:00:58 AM
I think DT's popularity has stabilized for the most part - I can't see them becoming any bigger, but they aren't on a notable downward slope, either. I looked at the US first-week sales for the latest five albums at Blabbermouth (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-new-album-cracks-u-s-top-10/):
Quote
The new, self-titled album from progressive metal giants DREAM THEATER sold around 34,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to debut at position No. 7 on The Billboard 200 chart. The CD arrived in stores on September 24 via Roadrunner.

DREAM THEATER's previous CD, "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", opened with 36,000 units to land at No. 8. The band's 2009 effort, "Black Clouds & Silver Linings", premiered with 40,000 copies to enter the chart at No. 6. This was roughly in line with the first-week tally registered by its predecessor, "Systematic Chaos", which shifted 36,000 copies in 2007 to debut at No. 19. 2005's "Octavarium" premiered with 27,000 copies to land at No. 36.
That kind of decline isn't too bad compared to Queensryche's album sales before firing Geoff Tate (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/queensrche-dedicated-to-chaos-first-week-sales-revealed/):
Quote
"Dedicated To Chaos", the new album from Seattle progressive rockers QUEENSRCHE, sold 8,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to land at position No. 70 on The Billboard 200 chart. The band's previous CD, the epic concept album "American Soldier", opened with 21,000 units back in April 2009 to enter the chart at No. 25. This was roughly half the first-week tally registered by QUEENSRCHE's "Operation: Mindcrime II" album, which shifted 44,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release back in April 2006 to debut at No. 14 on The Billboard 200 chart.
I think the lack of change in musical direction is both a gift and a curse for DT - they aren't losing a lot of fans, but aren't gaining masses of new either. I'd like to see them get more experimental, but at this point in their career it's probably too late and would be considered dangerous by the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 26, 2014, 07:38:21 AM
Quote from: Skeever on December 26, 2014, 06:53:45 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on December 26, 2014, 06:49:23 AM
I was under no illusions that DT would ever be able to fill MSG.  I that a mark on them?  Not in the slightest.
Neither was I, but Mike specifically states that as a goal for the band moving forward. That why I'm saying, I wonder if personally he would say those kinds of things, but secretly he had a feel that he'd need to join or start another band to get there.

I think Mike was more of a guy wearing his emotions on his sleeve and his heart was not with the band at that moment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 26, 2014, 07:45:17 AM
Yeah, I never got the impression that that was a realistic goal he had set for the band.  That was more of a wish, an "If I win the lottery" statement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 09:02:07 AM
I was actually surprised how much they managed to get out of it after the switch to RR. I've never been a big fan of the image they took on (the "greasy bike shop" image), but it certainly drew more people in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on December 26, 2014, 11:46:27 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is a realization I've made more recently:

While DT12 is a great album when comparing it against other albums by other bands in general, it is IMO their worst album since FII.

I hadn't realized this until recently, after giving it a solid year and 3 months to listen to (or more importantly, not listen to).

The problem for me is that it has 3 songs on it which I never liked, and likely never will. FAS, EM, and TLG. No other DT album since FII has more than 1 song on it that I flat out never liked at any time. This is a huge testament to how consistent and impressive DT is.

The other problem is that the epic, IT, is just average to me. I loved it at first, but it has not aged well at all.

Between those 4 songs (IT, FAS, EM, and TLG), roughly 35 of the 70 minutes are accounted for, or half of the album.

Then there's AfTR, which is a good song but not one that I go out of my way to listen to.

We are left with 4 songs (TEI, BtV, StR, and TBP), all of which are amazing. I've always loved these songs, but even they have not aged particularly well. I still love them, but I rarely listen to them.

So we're left with an album that, while great, just doesn't compare to the rest of their albums since FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 26, 2014, 12:23:23 PM
It's my 4th favorite. Just saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on December 26, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 26, 2014, 12:23:23 PM
It's my 4th favorite. Just saying.

It was my 4th or 5th favorite shortly after it came out too, but it hasn't aged as well for me personally. That is far from set in stone though. Who knows...in a year or so it may make the jump back into my top 5.

The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on December 26, 2014, 01:29:58 PM
I think DT12 still lies right around the middle of their albums for me, which sounds worse than it actually is. I think it's still very, very solid, with some of their best material on it in years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 26, 2014, 02:03:07 PM
Enigma Machine is probably the only song on the new album that I wouldn't mind not hearing for a long while. It's ok, but my phone loves playing it whenever I put my 1700 songs on shuffle, so I'm just tired of it.

That being said, I can listen to Erotomania and Hell's Kitchen over and over again without ever getting tired of them, but they wrote differently back then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 26, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: adamack on December 26, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.
It's gone the other way for me.  I liked it quite a bit upon release, but now I'm not sure I can sit through the whole thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 26, 2014, 02:59:18 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on December 26, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: adamack on December 26, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
The Count Of Tuscany has proven to me that anything can happen with DT. I used to dislike TCoT, but I kept giving it a shot and it ended up being a top 25 song.
It's gone the other way for me.  I liked it quite a bit upon release, but now I'm not sure I can sit through the whole thing.

The Count of Tuscany is so silly that when I do listen to it, it's always a good time. Granted I don't listen to it that often anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 04:43:51 PM
For me it depends on the day. Sometimes I can blend out the ludicrous lyrics and MP's laughable backing vocals, and then it's an awesome song music-wise. Some days I'm unsuccessful and wish there was a "fan version" that had different lyrics and no MP on vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 05:04:38 PM
Regarding DT12, I actually just checked RYM to see whether its ranking had changed. It hadn't really, but I noticed another intriguing aspect. Check this out:

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_zpsf66f0f33.png)

I think it's peculiar that DT12 and BCSL are a measly 0.09 apart. Like, it seems the fanbase almost created this "tier" system that puts albums into 3 distinct tiers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 26, 2014, 05:47:40 PM
Where's Six Degrees?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 26, 2014, 05:53:04 PM
That's really interesting, Rumbo, though not surprising.

Quote from: Zook on December 26, 2014, 05:47:40 PM
Where's Six Degrees?
Good question.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 06:05:50 PM
Oops, forgot to enter that line! It's at 3.55, I ust updated the graph. Which I guess "rounds off" the downslope from Awake to ToT nicely, making ToT less of an anomaly. But, the Tier 2 ones are still crazy clustered.
And on a more controversial note I guess (it's the thread after all), if one is to subscribe to the tier classification, DT has not released a Tier 1 album in the second half of their career.
That said, DT12 was actually their best effort in the second half.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 26, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
Awake and Six Degrees should be level with the first two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 26, 2014, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 05:04:38 PM
Regarding DT12, I actually just checked RYM to see whether its ranking had changed. It hadn't really, but I noticed another intriguing aspect. Check this out:

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/dt_zpsf66f0f33.png)

I think it's peculiar that DT12 and BCSL are a measly 0.09 apart. Like, it seems the fanbase almost created this "tier" system that puts albums into 3 distinct tiers.
That's pretty interesting. My personal rankings would probably swap DT12 and ADTOE. For me, ADTOE is the one that is closer to the level of the best albums, and sort of the "comeback" record. DT12, not so much. As for the rest of the list, I'm sure I could tinker with it, but I'm alright with it as-is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 26, 2014, 07:06:32 PM
Looking at that graph, I guess my controversial opinion would be that other than the top 2, I don't agree with any of these positionings. 8VM, ADToE, and BC&SL are in my top half of albums while Awake, TOT, and DT12 are in my bottom half of albums. SDoIT is in the top half, but at the back end of it. WDaDU is higher (although still in the bottom half) while SC is my bottom album. FII is about where I have it as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 26, 2014, 07:07:03 PM
Quote from: Zook on December 26, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
Awake and Six Degrees should be level with the first two.

I would definitely say SDOIT should be level with Awake. But, the two are not the same level as the Golden Duo, IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 26, 2014, 07:31:43 PM
Quote from: adamack on December 26, 2014, 11:46:27 AM
My controversial opinion of the day is a realization I've made more recently:

While DT12 is a great album when comparing it against other albums by other bands in general, it is IMO their worst album since FII.


That is controversial.




Because it's an insult to FII to be put on the same level as DT12. FII is worlds better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 30, 2014, 08:27:45 PM
You know, re-reading the book, and being on the BC&SL chapter right now, if anyone makes it seem like an upswing for the band, more so than MP or anyone else, it's the author. I mean, describing BC&SL as their best album since SFAM, and a beacon that is to be remembered fondly over other DT albums in years to come. So, I mean, if that's how Rich feels, that's totally fine, but my point is that most of the positivity about the band in the book is coming from the author's fan perspective, not from the band themselves. Of course, it can be speculated that they said, "Just make sure the last chapter says we're doing better than ever, and only getting better," but somehow I doubt the band would've put in that kind of a request.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 30, 2014, 11:06:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 30, 2014, 08:27:45 PM
You know, re-reading the book, and being on the BC&SL chapter right now, if anyone makes it seem like an upswing for the band, more so than MP or anyone else, it's the author. I mean, describing BC&SL as their best album since SFAM, and a beacon that is to be remembered fondly over other DT albums in years to come. So, I mean, if that's how Rich feels, that's totally fine, but my point is that most of the positivity about the band in the book is coming from the author's fan perspective, not from the band themselves. Of course, it can be speculated that they said, "Just make sure the last chapter says we're doing better than ever, and only getting better," but somehow I doubt the band would've put in that kind of a request.
In my opinion, the majority of the book in the late chapters is, in fact, MP input. Sure Rich did a good job as far as he could, but I totally suspect MP had a major role in framing the narrative from the band's point of view. To be honest, MP was such a control freak with that kind of stuff, that I also suspect the thought may have crossed his mind to write the book himself. :lol

(I mean, he did direct all the other docs on the band, right? And they all essentially have that same flavor to them, i.e. "look at all the adversity which has plagued us; things are better than ever now and we're on an upswing")
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on December 30, 2014, 11:19:34 PM
I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 31, 2014, 12:17:36 AM
Quote from: Mosh on December 30, 2014, 11:19:34 PM
I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.

I think he mentioned that this was one of the first things he thought about doing when he left the band,  and I'm expecting him to do it at some point.  But a lot of it may be "censored" for legal reasons.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on December 31, 2014, 03:50:16 AM
Censored because it would get MP in a lot of libel trouble :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 31, 2014, 07:08:54 AM
:lol

Seriously. What would be left of the story that wouldn't be slander?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 31, 2014, 10:02:01 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 31, 2014, 07:08:54 AM
:lol

Seriously. What would be left of the story that wouldn't be slander?

"Slander is spoken. In print it's libel." - J. Jonah Jameson
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 31, 2014, 10:57:57 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 08:50:37 PM
All I know is that if the band is full of shit when they say that it was when they got their proper support from RR that things have been better for them than they had been in a long time, then they're definitely doing a good job of deceiving everyone, because from the kind of label support and publicity they're getting, the quality of their performances, as well as their live production, and the band's overall morale, it all spells upswing to me.

Nailed it.

Quote from: rumborak on December 24, 2014, 09:11:42 PM
I think it all depends on the angle from which your looking at it.
To me, DT has long been (at least to may, say, 6 years) in the classic "post-peak" period. Interest in the band was slowly waning, and while the MP/MM shakeup was the proverbial adrenaline syringe into the heart, the slow decent resumed soon after. I think to a lot of people, ADTOE showed potential, and the hope was that DT12 was going to boldly open the doors that were slightly ajar in ADTOE. I think DT12 was a rather disappointing "Oh." when it fell back into the old patterns again. *Especially* when the whole thing was preempted by quotes like "MM unleashed", and reality was a plastic electronic drum kit sound with mediocre drumming.

:lol  I'm not even sure what planet that might be true on.


Quote from: ? on December 26, 2014, 07:00:58 AM
I think DT's popularity has stabilized for the most part - I can't see them becoming any bigger, but they aren't on a notable downward slope, either. I looked at the US first-week sales for the latest five albums at Blabbermouth (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-new-album-cracks-u-s-top-10/):
Quote
The new, self-titled album from progressive metal giants DREAM THEATER sold around 34,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to debut at position No. 7 on The Billboard 200 chart. The CD arrived in stores on September 24 via Roadrunner.

DREAM THEATER's previous CD, "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", opened with 36,000 units to land at No. 8. The band's 2009 effort, "Black Clouds & Silver Linings", premiered with 40,000 copies to enter the chart at No. 6. This was roughly in line with the first-week tally registered by its predecessor, "Systematic Chaos", which shifted 36,000 copies in 2007 to debut at No. 19. 2005's "Octavarium" premiered with 27,000 copies to land at No. 36.
That kind of decline isn't too bad compared to Queensryche's album sales before firing Geoff Tate (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/queensrche-dedicated-to-chaos-first-week-sales-revealed/):
Quote
"Dedicated To Chaos", the new album from Seattle progressive rockers QUEENSRCHE, sold 8,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release to land at position No. 70 on The Billboard 200 chart. The band's previous CD, the epic concept album "American Soldier", opened with 21,000 units back in April 2009 to enter the chart at No. 25. This was roughly half the first-week tally registered by QUEENSRCHE's "Operation: Mindcrime II" album, which shifted 44,000 copies in the United States in its first week of release back in April 2006 to debut at No. 14 on The Billboard 200 chart.
I think the lack of change in musical direction is both a gift and a curse for DT - they aren't losing a lot of fans, but aren't gaining masses of new either. I'd like to see them get more experimental, but at this point in their career it's probably too late and would be considered dangerous by the band.

Good points.  I don't recall where it was, but this was discussed awhile back as well, and Dream Theater and Queensryche are VERY interesting examples when looking at album sales during this period.  Keep in mind that album sales numbers have declined dramatically across the industry during the time period we are talking about.  So album sales numbers cannot really be looked at as raw numbers if you want to draw any meaningful conclusions about what they mean about a band's success.  They are useful relative numbers, but not as raw data.  What I mean is, the industry as a whole saw a much sharper decline during this time period than Dream Theater's numbers.  Relative to the industry, Queensryche's numbers were much worse, indicating that the band did in fact completely tank during the Mindcrime II->American Solidier->D2C stretch.  Dream Theater's raw numbers shrank slightly, but were far better than the overall decline in the industry.  So with that perspective, I think those numbers definitely spell success, especially when you also look at relative concert attendance and see that, again, DT is holding firm and continuing to draw crowds when they are out on the road, which is where the money really is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on December 31, 2014, 03:29:03 PM
Quote from: Mosh on December 30, 2014, 11:19:34 PM
I'm surprised MP hasn't written a book yet actually. Maybe he hasn't had the time.

Writing is difficult when you are in constant motion and forevermore blistering into the night.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 31, 2014, 05:17:05 PM
I think just about everything interesting was said in Lifting Shadows. I've said it before, but none of the DT guys are Neil Pearts. I just don't think that, outside their musical endeavors, they would have a lot of things to say. And particularly from MP I could see his book being titled "Shattering the Fortress" or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 01, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 31, 2014, 05:17:05 PM
I think just about everything interesting was said in Lifting Shadows. I've said it before, but none of the DT guys are Neil Pearts. I just don't think that, outside their musical endeavors, they would have a lot of things to say. And particularly from MP I could see his book being titled "Shattering the Fortress" or something.
Have you read Neil's books? Which one is the best?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 01, 2015, 03:25:12 PM
I haven't read it myself yet, but several diehard Rush-fan friends recommended Ghost Rider.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 01, 2015, 05:17:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 01, 2015, 03:25:12 PM
I haven't read it myself yet, but several diehard Rush-fan friends recommended Ghost Rider.
Ghost Rider was cool if you want to hear how Neil got through the tragedies in his life, but there is little about the band. He talks about meeting Alex on some of his travels and that sort of thing. I would recommend it if one were to go through some trying times in their life. But it is NOT a rock n roll book. By any stretch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 01, 2015, 06:23:33 PM
Ghost Rider is a must.  It humanizes the band and you can't help and feel for Neil.  I don't know what I would do in that position.  I'm not talking taking my life but what depths would I have sunk to.  Amazing read.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 02, 2015, 03:40:08 AM
 I read all of Neil´s books all the way up to "Far and Away", which got me quite disappointed when I realized it was simply a collection of his posts on hos blog, which are available for free anyway. Some of them are quite interesting, although some passages are quite dull - especially the ones when he describes his bird watching experiences.

 I was really impressed with Ghost Rider as well, but my favourite, hands down, is The Masked Rider, mostly because of the exotic setting. I really enjoy travel writing, and I think Neil´s prose would benefit from riding on different locations than the US. If I was to suggest one place for him to ride and write about it would be New Zealand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: the_silent_man on January 02, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
My controversial opinion: Whilst DT12 was a good album and still way better than 8VM, Sc & BC&SL, I feel the lyrics seemed quite weak. They seem really "sugary" (for lack of a better word) and downright cheesy  and clichéd at times. My hope for the next album is that they add a bit more "grit" and they spend a bit more time crafting meaningful lyrics with more depth to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 02, 2015, 05:18:24 PM
Doesn't that just apply to AFTR, and some parts of IT and TEI?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 02, 2015, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: the_silent_man on January 02, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
My controversial opinion: Whilst DT12 was a good album and still way better than 8VM, Sc & BC&SL, I feel the lyrics seemed quite weak. They seem really "sugary" (for lack of a better word) and downright cheesy  and clichéd at times. My hope for the next album is that they add a bit more "grit" and they spend a bit more time crafting meaningful lyrics with more depth to them.

Ehh....they most certainly weren't I&W and Awake style.....but IMO they were WAY better than SC and BC&SL. ADTOE and DT12 got them back on track IMO as far as lyrics are concerned....not saying they were their best but they were at least in the ballpark of 'good' again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 02, 2015, 05:49:07 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on January 02, 2015, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: the_silent_man on January 02, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
My controversial opinion: Whilst DT12 was a good album and still way better than 8VM, Sc & BC&SL, I feel the lyrics seemed quite weak. They seem really "sugary" (for lack of a better word) and downright cheesy  and clichéd at times. My hope for the next album is that they add a bit more "grit" and they spend a bit more time crafting meaningful lyrics with more depth to them.

Ehh....they most certainly weren't I&W and Awake style.....but IMO they were WAY better than SC and BC&SL. ADTOE and DT12 got them back on track IMO as far as lyrics are concerned....not saying they were their best but they were at least in the ballpark of 'good' again.
I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 02, 2015, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on January 02, 2015, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: the_silent_man on January 02, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
My controversial opinion: Whilst DT12 was a good album and still way better than 8VM, Sc & BC&SL, I feel the lyrics seemed quite weak. They seem really "sugary" (for lack of a better word) and downright cheesy  and clichéd at times. My hope for the next album is that they add a bit more "grit" and they spend a bit more time crafting meaningful lyrics with more depth to them.

Ehh....they most certainly weren't I&W and Awake style.....but IMO they were WAY better than SC and BC&SL. ADTOE and DT12 got them back on track IMO as far as lyrics are concerned....not saying they were their best but they were at least in the ballpark of 'good' again.

I think they should actually stop writing dark lyrics because they just do not have the angst anymore. Awake worked because  those lyrics were really honest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on January 02, 2015, 06:18:23 PM
I dunno, I've never taken issue with any of the bands lyrics really. There might be a few moments where I turn my head, but that can happen with any artist if you miss the point of the message or have  preconception about a phrase.

I think the direction for ADTOE/DT12 had a bit more of a positive light to it with perhaps a few contrasts to reflect the other side of the coin sometimes, which personally I find refreshing. But probably comes across as 'cheesy' to some. But I think at the end of the day it's important for the lyrics to be honest or sincere and not contrived. So deliberately trying to replicate their I&W/Awake lyric writing style probably wouldn't work today unless they can honestly access how they felt then and express that sincerely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: the_silent_man on January 03, 2015, 07:55:09 AM
I agree that I think it would be difficult to write lyrics as good as I&W/Awake (Voices has possibly my favourite lyrics of any song, every line is so well thought out), but it would be nice to attempt some of the more obscure (deeper?) lyrics of those albums that take a few listens to grasp.

As for the "grit" I was talking about, "Behind the Veil" comes close in its verses, but the chorus completely kills it for me as is a good example of the "sugary" lyrics I previously mentioned. I'm not saying to go back t the "dark master" / "my cup overflows with my enemy's blood!!"  bollocks, but something more girtty would be nice.

I did think ADTOE was more of a step in the right direction with it's lyrics, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 03, 2015, 08:57:10 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on December 23, 2014, 04:50:52 PM
Well, unless you intimately know their early history, right down to the nitty gritty, then it's still an incredibly insightful and interesting 2/3 of a book.

I probably knew their early history better than their 2002-2010 history.  BTW, bought the book, scanned it in (for tablet reading) and read while listening to their official albums in chronological order.  If a certain event was referenced, I'd stop and do a google search to watch the concert or whatever.

The first 200 pages I read pretty quickly.  The last 150 were kind of tedious, which is odd considering that was the history I was less familiar with (outside their official releases). 

It really felt cut and paste at the end.  One chapter = one album.  Coming off tour.  Come up with a theme.  Decide on studio team. Talk about some of the songs.  Read review snippets (with an obsession on Kerrang).  Go on to somewhat uneventful tour.  Repeat.

Jordan confirms
Quote
It's a very boring rock band really. The most interesting things about us are our chord progressions and our meter changes!

Even the big rock drug scene was summed up as
Quote
Yeah, but put it this way, I've seen a lot, lot worse," says Barclay who had previously toured with the likes of Motley Criie. "Mike wasn't hitting the drugs that hard and it wasn't that bad when it was around.

None of this is a knock on the band.  It is hardly negative to say they put their focus where it needs to be and don't succumb in any great excess to the vices associated with rock bands.  It just makes for a somewhat boring book.  (And that isn't a knock on the writer either).

Reading the book brings something to mind on the upcoming album and what I'd like to hear.  From album to album they'd slide the scale between prog and metal.  FII is about Petrucci trying to improve his commercial songwriting chops.  One album they really spent a lot of time trying to nail the perfect chords.  Then they experimented with current influences instead of past (growl vocals and keyboard sounds).

But one thing they always did.  Music first.  Lyrics/Melody second.  Switching that around would probably be very interesting.  Their music has always been stronger than their melodies.  It would be kind of cool to hear DT make the music fit the melody instead of the other way around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 09:07:38 AM
I always felt that, yes, while MP had an alcohol and drug problem at some point, it was somewhat ... "milked" for inspirational purposes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 03, 2015, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 09:07:38 AM
I always felt that, yes, while MP had an alcohol and drug problem at some point, it was somewhat ... "milked" for inspirational purposes.

 I don't think anyone would mess with addiction this way. Mike goes to AA meetings every week,  regardless of being on tour or not, and he's the only one who can feel how this affected him. Regardless of frequency and quantity,  it's how you feel about your addiction that counts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on January 03, 2015, 05:04:57 PM
Agreed. I think making grand assumptions about someone's personal addictions like that is actually pretty rude.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 05:35:38 PM
I'm not making so much a statement about his level of addiction, that is indeed something only he can judge. My point was rather that he decided to make this issue his "artist's angst", for lack of a better term, and then stuck with it for a long time, maybe because he had a hard time to come up with topics to write lyrics about (with CM and HTF for example being clear " meh" examples).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 03, 2015, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on January 03, 2015, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 09:07:38 AM
I always felt that, yes, while MP had an alcohol and drug problem at some point, it was somewhat ... "milked" for inspirational purposes.

 I don't think anyone would mess with addiction this way. Mike goes to AA meetings every week,  regardless of being on tour or not,

I don't think he does anymore.  I think I remember him saying that he doesn't go a whole lot. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 09:47:25 PM
Even when he still went, I kinda have a hard time imagining him sitting in a Chilean AA meeting, not understanding a word. While I can see him having attended the meetings during their North American tour, I'm pretty sure he didn't do it in any non-English speaking countries.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 03, 2015, 11:13:31 PM
I didn't think rumborak was implying it wasn't a problem worth dealing with.  Just that MP took care of it before it hit the classic definition of rock bottom.
 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on January 04, 2015, 12:27:08 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 03, 2015, 11:13:31 PM
I didn't think rumborak was implying it wasn't a problem worth dealing with.  Just that MP took care of it before it hit the classic definition of rock bottom.
I think he may have been close.

Granted, had he already hit "rock bottom", he wouldn't have been in a band with a platform to tell everyone about his alcoholism. But, I think a lot of people maybe don't realize that it was about more than booze for MP, despite the focus of the AA Suite being on alcohol. But when he's talked about things, he's said that he was a heavy drinker and drugger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7CtuoMnpc

I also seem to recall reading elsewhere that it would come down to like partying with fans after shows, Mike not being sure if he had cheated on his wife because of how faded he was, etc., anyway, no need for me to speculate. It's all there in the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on January 04, 2015, 04:17:49 PM
Quote from: the_silent_man on January 02, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
My controversial opinion: Whilst DT12 was a good album and still way better than 8VM, Sc & BC&SL, I feel the lyrics seemed quite weak. They seem really "sugary" (for lack of a better word) and downright cheesy  and clichéd at times. My hope for the next album is that they add a bit more "grit" and they spend a bit more time crafting meaningful lyrics with more depth to them.

I'm actually going to half-agree. I think the lyrics themselves are good, but they're all getting way too life-lessony, and cheesy and cliched like you said. So many songs from ADTOE and DT12 can be summed up as "life is tough just live it to the fullest." Like yeah they have good messages to them but that gets really boring. Then again, I'm not really sure what else they could write about at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 05, 2015, 06:44:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 05:35:38 PM
I'm not making so much a statement about his level of addiction, that is indeed something only he can judge. My point was rather that he decided to make this issue his "artist's angst", for lack of a better term, and then stuck with it for a long time, maybe because he had a hard time to come up with topics to write lyrics about (with CM and HTF for example being clear " meh" examples).

"Meh" to you, but one man's opinion is irrelevant.   To some people, their sobriety is the biggest part of their daily, conscious life from that point forward.  Who are you to judge whether is appropriate or not for him to "decide" to "make this an issue"?   Is this any different than any other artist with recurring themes? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 05, 2015, 08:30:44 PM
Quote from: Stadler on January 05, 2015, 06:44:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 03, 2015, 05:35:38 PM
I'm not making so much a statement about his level of addiction, that is indeed something only he can judge. My point was rather that he decided to make this issue his "artist's angst", for lack of a better term, and then stuck with it for a long time, maybe because he had a hard time to come up with topics to write lyrics about (with CM and HTF for example being clear " meh" examples).

"Meh" to you, but one man's opinion is irrelevant.   To some people, their sobriety is the biggest part of their daily, conscious life from that point forward.  Who are you to judge whether is appropriate or not for him to "decide" to "make this an issue"?   Is this any different than any other artist with recurring themes? 

I think rumborak's point is that MP used his experience of addiction as a sort of crutch, even when he has already ran out of interesting things to say about his experience by the second half of the 12 Step Suite. One need only to see how much stronger the lyrics in The Mirror and The Glass Prison is compared to Repentance and the almost-redundant The Shattered Fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 05, 2015, 08:49:39 PM
Yes, thank you, at least someone gets it.
There's also the thing that the AA steps are actual steps of personal evolution, transforming the addict into someone who is at peace with himself and the environment.
Now, those steps, to my understanding, take most people decades, if not their lifetime to achieve. With MP they kinda had a forced (and I felt rushed) pacing, since he had scheduled X steps per album. I always felt he should have done another AA song when he felt he had achieved a new step, not because their tour had ended and it was time to write lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 06, 2015, 06:09:33 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 05, 2015, 08:49:39 PM
With MP they kinda had a forced (and I felt rushed) pacing, since he had scheduled X steps per album. I always felt he should have done another AA song when he felt he had achieved a new step, not because their tour had ended and it was time to write lyrics.

Assuming that's what happened (and I'm not suggesting it didn't), that's a fair point.  I understand a little better where you're coming from now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 06, 2015, 10:44:01 AM
JP hasn't had a decent guitar tone since ToT and a great one since SFAM (and actually a shitty one since SC). In my head this is just common sense but I have a feeling it might be a little bit controversial around here. He should probably get in touch with Jim Matheos or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
Quote from: abydos on January 06, 2015, 10:44:01 AM
JP hasn't had a decent guitar tone since ToT and a great one since SFAM. In my head this is just common sense but I have a feeling it might be a little bit controversial around here. He should probably get in touch with Jim Matheos or something.
lol I think his tone is decent, but I don't think he's had a GREAT one since Awake.

His bigger problem for me is volume.  As in, way too fucking much of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 06, 2015, 10:49:50 AM
I haven't listened to DT in a while and now that I actually went back and listened to some samples I'll have to agree about not having a great tone since Awake. FII and SFAM sounded better in my mind/memory :). But I still think he's been sounding very bad in the last 10 or so years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2015, 10:56:39 AM
Well, maybe I sold him a little short.  FII had outstanding tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 06, 2015, 10:58:55 AM
I have always liked JP's guitar tone. 

JM's bass tone, on the other hand, has been hit or miss since TOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2015, 11:05:36 AM
Agreed. 

I think it sounded best on FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 06, 2015, 11:12:59 AM
I was really surprised how weird JP's guitar sound was on LALP. There was no bottom end during palm-muted sections, it was all harmonics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 06, 2015, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 06, 2015, 11:12:59 AM
I was really surprised how weird JP's guitar sound was on LALP. There was no bottom end during palm-muted sections, it was all harmonics.

True, yeah, I was only thinking of his studio tone in my post above.  I agree about LALP.  I mean, to me, it wasn't way out there, but there were definitely times when it seemed odd, like what you mentioned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 06, 2015, 11:32:02 AM
I think his lead sound has improved over the years, but his clean sound has moved from a somewhat Gilmore-esque touch to this very chorus-laden one. I wish he explored that old sound again a bit more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 06, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
As far as his sound live, my favourite is Once in a Livetime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on January 06, 2015, 12:17:06 PM
I liked his sound on Train of Thought a lot. All the shedding sounds very smooth. Every note is crystal clear.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 06, 2015, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 06, 2015, 10:56:39 AM
Well, maybe I sold him a little short.  FII had outstanding tone.

Oh good, I won't have to correct you on that. Because that would have been awkward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Hairy Man on January 12, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
Through Her Eyes is a good song and has a very strong performance from Myung - simple but effective.

6:00 is utter crap.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
Myung's performance is the only good thing about Through Her Eyes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 12, 2015, 05:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
Myung's performance is the only good thing about Through Her Eyes.

No, the vocals and lyrics are pretty good too. It's a great pacer  on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on January 12, 2015, 06:05:58 PM
Quote from: The Hairy Man on January 12, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
Through Her Eyes is a good song and has a very strong performance from Myung - simple but effective.

While THE is not a song I would listen to outside of SFAM, it works very well in context and serves as a refreshing breather between BTL and Home. SFAM would definitely be weaker in its absense.

Quote
6:00 is utter crap.

Normally I am all for opposing opinions, but this is just... wrong. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 12, 2015, 05:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
Myung's performance is the only good thing about Through Her Eyes.

No, the vocals and lyrics are pretty good too. It's a great pacer  on the album.
Can't really agree with that. The lyrics are pretty poorly written imo and JLB's delivery doesn't do them any favors.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 12, 2015, 06:48:36 PM
JLB's gritty Hetfield voice is beautiful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 13, 2015, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 06:44:06 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 12, 2015, 05:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mosh on January 12, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
Myung's performance is the only good thing about Through Her Eyes.

No, the vocals and lyrics are pretty good too. It's a great pacer  on the album.
Can't really agree with that. The lyrics are pretty poorly written imo and JLB's delivery doesn't do them any favors.
I disagree.  I think it's a fantastic song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 13, 2015, 08:42:19 AM
Great song. If only for the pigeons. The PIGEONS!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vtgrad on January 13, 2015, 10:15:10 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 06, 2015, 11:32:02 AM
I think his lead sound has improved over the years, but his clean sound has moved from a somewhat Gilmore-esque touch to this very chorus-laden one. I wish he explored that old sound again a bit more.

I'll give you a big +1 for that opinion.  I think his album clean tones are awesome... but his live clean tone is soaking wet and the effect is too deep for my taste.  I can remember seeing DT during the TOT tour and thinking that his live clean tone was better than his high-gain rhythm tone.

IMO, his lead tone has always been spectacular; I remember sitting with my first amp back in 94 and trying to find that tone.  It's a bit easier now with the modeling amps.

As far as controversial opinions go, that's about as close as I can get.  In all honesty, I agree with those whose state his tone (across the board) hasn't been matched since Awake... with the closest two albums (imo) being FII and BCASL.  The last part of that sentence may be somewhat controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on January 16, 2015, 11:08:40 AM
Scarred is a good song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on January 16, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on January 16, 2015, 11:08:40 AM
Scarred is a good song

 Never thought this would be controversial...Scarred kicks ass!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on January 16, 2015, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on January 16, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on January 16, 2015, 11:08:40 AM
Scarred is a good song

 Never thought this would be controversial...Scarred kicks ass!!!
:lol I don't know man, I've seen a lot of people disliking it here and there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 11:48:18 AM
They are wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2015, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 11:48:18 AM
They are wrong.

This.

I don't know if I'd call liking it a controversial opinion though. It's probably DT's most polarizing song. Some love it, and some loathe it. Very few I find are in the middle ground about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on January 16, 2015, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on January 16, 2015, 11:08:40 AM
Scarred is a good song


I love you
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2015, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 11:48:18 AM
They are wrong.

This.

I don't know if I'd call liking it a controversial opinion though. It's probably DT's most polarizing song. Some love it, and some loathe it. Very few I find are in the middle ground about it.
Space Dye Vest says hi.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's few legitimate masterpieces.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 16, 2015, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's MANY legitimate masterpieces.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 16, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 16, 2015, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's MANY legitimate masterpieces.

Fixed.
So true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2015, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2015, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 11:48:18 AM
They are wrong.

This.

I don't know if I'd call liking it a controversial opinion though. It's probably DT's most polarizing song. Some love it, and some loathe it. Very few I find are in the middle ground about it.
Space Dye Vest says hi.

And it comes right after too. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 16, 2015, 04:27:04 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2015, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 16, 2015, 11:48:18 AM
They are wrong.

This.

I don't know if I'd call liking it a controversial opinion though. It's probably DT's most polarizing song. Some love it, and some loathe it. Very few I find are in the middle ground about it.
Space Dye Vest says hi.

Illuminatuon Theory appears to be vying for membership in this group too. I think The Great Debate also?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 16, 2015, 04:38:38 PM
No.  Not even close on those.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on January 16, 2015, 04:41:32 PM
I don't think I've seen much outright hate for IT, the worst seems to be just general apathy. Same for TGD, really, though I love it personally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 16, 2015, 05:40:53 PM
Yeah, the love that some people have for The Great Debate is one that I will never get, but I like it alright.

I feel the same way about The Looking Glass, which might be controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 16, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 16, 2015, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's MANY legitimate masterpieces.

Fixed.
So true.

My defense can be summed up in one word given weight by Louis CK:  Hilarious
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 06:19:18 PM
Controversial opinion

Mike Portnoy was right:  creatively
Dream Theater was right:  structurally

The break most likely would have produced great results in terms of songwriting.

The break didn't necessarily favor Portnoy over the other DT members in terms of finance.  The real damage would have been that it took DT a long time to set up its management teams (for the recordings and the road crew).  Great employees require structure to keep them.  If you run out of work for them or can't give them a definitive schedule, they will have to find work elsewhere and then you can't expect them to drop everything when you are ready for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Octavaripolis on January 18, 2015, 06:28:41 AM
I like ADTOE a lot more than the latest album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:29:49 AM
I don't think that's controversial. I also happen to agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 18, 2015, 06:30:02 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:29:49 AM
I don't think that's controversial. I also happen to agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 18, 2015, 06:43:00 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's few legitimate masterpieces.

That's such an overused word now.  Masterpiece technically should refer to THE greatest work of an artist, meaning a band like Dream Theater's best work is their masterpiece, but the word has gotten so overused over the years that it is commonly used now to refer to just about any work of art considered great.  The word has lost much of its luster.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

I saw this deceleration on my phone and now on my computer, it's not here.

I should have qouted it unless someone changed their post.  I though it was a crazy deceleration.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 07:48:07 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2015, 06:43:00 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 16, 2015, 02:30:44 PM
Scarred is a one of DT's few legitimate masterpieces.
That's such an overused word now. 

I totally agree.  In fact, I originally wrote what you did almost word for word in response to the *fixed*, but instead brought up Louis CK's joke on the word hilarious (which says the same thing if you saw his act on this)

To put this in context, here are probably my top 10 DT songs in order with what keeps them from being #1 in (parenthesis)
1.  Scarred    (it is perfect)
2.  Voices    (LaBrie's grating vocals during "Thought disorder …")
3.  Learning to Live    (none)
4.  Take the Time (none)
5.  Misunderstood    (none)
6.  Lines in the Sand    (Flawless … except the "In my stream of consciousness" section)
7.  6:00    (none)
8.  Finally Free    (Although the sound effects and dialogue are necessary for the album, it ruins the song as a stand alone)
9.  A Change of Seasons    (could have absolutely been cut down)
10.  Octavarium    (Great, until the Rudess influence on the jams)
11.  Trial of Tears    (Can't put my finger on why it isn't top 5 other than it isn't)

So I think I used the word masterpiece correctly.  And I think the top 8 are so close to masterpiece that I'm fine with them being called a masterpiece.

Voices would be #1 if LaBrie re-recorded that one verse (which instrumentally is killer).  The top 8 could all be masterpieces with the slightest of tweaks. 

And a song like The Mirror could have been awesome as the intro during the I&W tour was perfection.  The verse is just as great.  Then the prechorus kills one of the greatest songs of all time.  Reinsert the delay-whammy bar live intro, tweak the (pre)chorus, add the Sherinian contributions and it would be at least top 5.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 07:50:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

Well, to go back to controversy, the majority of the ADToE's album is heavily based off Images and Words.  Yeah.  I'm one of those and I have no doubt in my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 07:59:14 AM
If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 07:59:14 AM
If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?
It isn't that big of a deal to those that accept it.  It seems to be a huge deal to those that won't admit it.

My theory is that Petrucci-Portnoy had a great songwriting team where Petrucci came up with the majority of the music, and Portnoy had a knack for arranging/shaping it.  Petrucci didn't have to develop that part of his composing abilities because Portnoy had it covered.  So when Portnoy left, Petrucci decided to use an iconic album to remind himself what made them so great in the fist place.

Or maybe he even said "our fans keep telling us how great I&W is two decades after the fact.  If they complain this album doesn't have the same style as I&W, then we've proven our fans are .... not as musically adept as they pretend."

The album was good, but I prefer the I&W counterparts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 08:19:37 AM
I'm assuming that John thought DT was getting away from what he liked as well as the band, they wanted to go back to a certain brand they has and it was that template.  So many bands do this all the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 08:35:54 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 08:19:37 AM
I'm assuming that John thought DT was getting away from what he liked as well as the band, they wanted to go back to a certain brand they has and it was that template.  So many bands do this all the time.

Yes, but when other bands do it, they are copying intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge - repeating chorus outro, which really isn't a unique formula.  Copying a unique formula stands out a bit more.  Kind of like the difference between a 3 number lottery and 12 number lottery.  The 12 number lottery isn't just 4x different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 08:40:39 AM
I think people look into it too much and miss the joy from the music they are listening to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 09:10:52 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 08:40:39 AM
I think people look into it too much and miss the joy from the music they are listening to.

If anything, it gives me more pleasure.  I already went through my phase of writing stuff out by others, but it was a great phase to go through and adds so much to the listening experience.

Here's an example of me during that phase back when DT fans used to talk via ytsejam mailing list and IRC:
ytsejam archive (https://interzone.com/Music/Ytsejam/1998/Aug/0060.html)
Just do a search for Calvin6s and read the text breakdown of the Learning to Live intro.  That intro is as cool today as it was 24 years ago.  (and sure enough, there was a debate back then talking about not being able to enjoy music if you analyze it).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on January 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 18, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 06:52:36 AM
OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

I saw this deceleration on my phone and now on my computer, it's not here.

I should have qouted it unless someone changed their post.  I though it was a crazy deceleration.
Well it wasn't me but I certainly think OTBOA is the only great song on that album. Not that the others are bad, but OTBOA is a pretty big step above them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Listen, I get into all the little nuances but not the ones that take away from the enjoyment.  That may be just your personality but I tend not to dwell on such things to ruin the experience.

Now over time an album looses it's flavor or doesn't capture my imagination but not for the things you are looking for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 20, 2015, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on January 18, 2015, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on January 18, 2015, 07:59:14 AM
If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?
It isn't that big of a deal to those that accept it.  It seems to be a huge deal to those that won't admit it.

My theory is that Petrucci-Portnoy had a great songwriting team where Petrucci came up with the majority of the music, and Portnoy had a knack for arranging/shaping it.  Petrucci didn't have to develop that part of his composing abilities because Portnoy had it covered.  So when Portnoy left, Petrucci decided to use an iconic album to remind himself what made them so great in the fist place.

Or maybe he even said "our fans keep telling us how great I&W is two decades after the fact.  If they complain this album doesn't have the same style as I&W, then we've proven our fans are .... not as musically adept as they pretend."

The album was good, but I prefer the I&W counterparts.

Not arguing, since I largely agree with you both, but you are sort of glossing over a big part of the context of this 'controversy', and that is time and place.  The way you describe it isn't so bad, but you are talking about the FIRST release after an acrimonious breakup between what you yourself label the key song-writing partnership.     Sure, I can go to whatever restaurant I want, but if I get divorced, and take my new girlfriend to New Orleans (from CT) and take her to the same restaurant where I proposed to my first wife (and she accepted), then it's got context that can't be overlooked.

Again, I'm not suggesting right or wrong, but merely pointing out that there are perhaps more variables than are being considered so far.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: metallitroy on January 21, 2015, 03:15:13 AM
Mangini is every bit as good as Portnoy, and adds something new to the band that I like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 23, 2015, 05:03:50 AM
Quote from: metallitroy on January 21, 2015, 03:15:13 AM
Mangini is every bit as good as Portnoy, and adds something new to the band that I like.

Not only this but he's far superior too. At least on a batshit insanely technical level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 10:02:26 AM
I could cautiously agree with that. On a technical level, MM is clearly far more capable than MP.
But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 23, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
I would love to see a few examples of "MM Unleashed", but I get the feeling that an entire album like that would be unsatisfying.  You know, like Spiral Architect or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 10:10:45 AM
A whole album would of course be overwhelming. But, they easily could have snuck in something like the beginning of 6:00. Show that he can groove, and at the same time do crazy stuff. The only thing I can think of is in Enigma Machine, but I personally find that drum fill awful. It sounds like when you put your whole hand on a MIDI keyboard that has drum sounds loaded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 10:02:26 AM
I could cautiously agree with that. On a technical level, MM is clearly far more capable than MP.
But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.

Michael Bourn is one of, if not THE, fastest players in baseball.   Who would you have on your team:  Michael Bourn or Mike Trout?

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 23, 2015, 10:46:20 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 23, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
I would love to see a few examples of "MM Unleashed", but I get the feeling that an entire album like that would be unsatisfying.  You know, like Spiral Architect or something.

Unleashed doesn't have to mean notes per second.  I can hear the change in the songs with Jordan, and I'm not talking about the 1920s ragtime piano bits.  He affected the chord structures.  Mangini has had much less effect on the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on January 23, 2015, 01:22:44 PM
If we got a whole album of MM sounding and playing like he did on TSF in BTFW, it'd be the best drumming ever on a DT album (assuming the songs themselves worked).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 23, 2015, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 23, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
So he doesn't practice even after leaving DT and gaining a lot of time on his hands?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 04:02:39 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 23, 2015, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

Eh. Of course you well know that the comparison is totally invalid, but whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on January 23, 2015, 04:21:42 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I watched an interview with Mike Portnoy recently where he said he doesn't practice because he doesn't have time but when he does have some time on his hands he will use some of it to practice. When you have as much on your plate as he does, it can be impossible to find time to practice. He also has a great memory in the sense that he can jump behind a set to play something he hasn't played in a while and still play it perfectly. John Petrucci even said this is true in an interview last year. In all fairness, with him doing so much, he's also pretty much playing drums all the time anyway whether it's in the studio or on stage so it's not like he's getting rusty.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 04:47:27 PM
I think that's all fair. My point would be that his choice to wear so many hats keeps him from progressing in his craft. It's a tradeoff, but to me that's what keeps him out of the upper echelon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on January 23, 2015, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 23, 2015, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.


I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

In fairness, there's only so many notes that people will resonate with, so an artist is always going to stick to what sounds good to them. I add that last part because there is apparently more note combinations in music than observed stars in the night sky (no idea how accurate that is, the internet told me :lol), but faar less combinations that the average person will think sounds harmonically satisfying. I mean, there are certain patterns that are COMPLETELY over used, but they still make for good listening if they're used appropriately and don't grind into repetition. Like certain chord progressions, I would give examples like the I V vi IV or the i III VII iv/VI. Or perhaps i VII i VII or V VI V VI. These are stamped over almost any artist that's made more than a handful of albums and DT have used them many times. JP has his favourite chord progressions, but he's pretty good at hiding them. In that, he makes subtle changes so the chord progressions don't sound the same as the last time he used it.

As for drummers, well similar deal really. MP has a very developed style, once you've reached that point you're gonna be constantly trying variations of the things that already appeal to you. I've noticed some of his drumming on the latest Flying Colors album seemed a bit rehashed (thought I recognised some parts from A7X drumming and even stuff going as far back as SDOIT). But then I realised it was actually a bit different, and it still worked well for the context and mood of the song. Should he have to reinvent himself every time just to sound 'different' when he's capable of demonstrating a wide variation of appropriate techniques for a certain section.

Although I digress alot, sometimes a musician just needs to try something new because I get how one can fall into stagnation, but I assume you're joking because of course a guitarist is gonna keep using G, it's a completely relevant note/chord. xD Anyway, just trying to appreciate from the perspective of the musician.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on January 23, 2015, 06:07:40 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 23, 2015, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 23, 2015, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM
I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.


I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

In fairness, there's only so many notes that people will resonate with, so an artist is always going to stick to what sounds good to them. I add that last part because there is apparently more note combinations in music than observed stars in the night sky (no idea how accurate that is, the internet told me :lol), but faar less combinations that the average person will think sounds harmonically satisfying. I mean, there are certain patterns that are COMPLETELY over used, but they still make for good listening if they're used appropriately and don't grind into repetition. Like certain chord progressions, I would give examples like the I V vi IV or the i III VII iv/VI. Or perhaps i VII i VII or V VI V VI. These are stamped over almost any artist that's made more than a handful of albums and DT have used them many times. JP has his favourite chord progressions, but he's pretty good at hiding them. In that, he makes subtle changes so the chord progressions don't sound the same as the last time he used it.

As for drummers, well similar deal really. MP has a very developed style, once you've reached that point you're gonna be constantly trying variations of the things that already appeal to you. I've noticed some of his drumming on the latest Flying Colors album seemed a bit rehashed (thought I recognised some parts from A7X drumming and even stuff going as far back as SDOIT). But then I realised it was actually a bit different, and it still worked well for the context and mood of the song. Should he have to reinvent himself every time just to sound 'different' when he's capable of demonstrating a wide variation of appropriate techniques for a certain section.

Although I digress alot, sometimes a musician just needs to try something new because I know what you mean about stagnation, just trying to appreciate from the perspective of the musician though.

The question with the whole Portnoy "stagnation" discussion is: Does it result from him simply figuring out "the things that already appeal to him," some lack of practice/technical limitations, or some of both? I'd have to lean more toward the former. I mean, Mike Mangini clearly is extremely dedicated to his craft, and he has as much technical ability as anyone...and still, a very high percentage of his drum parts don't approach groundbreaking.

On another note, Petrucci and Rudess are also clearly dedicated musicians, and they talk about practicing all the time, but I'd say they have a similar diminishing return on finding new nooks and crannies to explore. The more recorded material an artist puts out, the more of the cards they show; it's that simple. There are more notes on a guitar and keyboard then there are drums, so it's easier to find the drummer replicating patterns than a guitarist or keyboardist replicating runs. Combined with Portnoy's statements, it's easy to connect the dots and create a causal relationship where there really isn't one. Not saying it's completely invalid, but it's a minor factor.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 23, 2015, 06:19:24 PM
This is not a controversial opinion on DT, but on Mike Portnoy which was a huge part of DT (which seems to be something that is being talked about):

He's not half the player he was during the late 90s/early 00s era. His drumming doesn't stand out to me in any aspect anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 23, 2015, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2015, 10:02:26 AM
But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.

Sadly, I agree with this. I love MM, but he's yet to impress me on a DT album yet. I don't care about who's technically better or holds a world record for speed, all I care about is if I find the music interesting. One of my favourite things from MM so far is the straight simple 12/8 riff in Illumination Theory, which is nothing fancy, but it has some groove.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 24, 2015, 02:46:22 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 23, 2015, 06:19:24 PM
This is not a controversial opinion on DT, but on Mike Portnoy which was a huge part of DT (which seems to be something that is being talked about):

He's not half the player he was during the late 90s/early 00s era. His drumming doesn't stand out to me in any aspect anymore.

Completely agreed. I was listening to I&W and i still am impressed with his drumming. Unfortunately MP's playing today is very predictable and less diverse in my opinion, that is the case on the new Neal Morse album as well, i knew the fills even before he played them.

I see people talking about MM's creativity, and sure, he may not be so in your face as MP was, but he is so musical. Some parts are not easily recognisable, but he does some pretty mindblowing stuff once you get to understand it. Too bad the production of both studio albums he's in is crap, and he has a very mediocre sound. Let's hope for an improvement on the next album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 24, 2015, 12:36:55 PM
I think if there's one thing I would like to see, or rather, stop seeing, is MM following every guitar chugga with his bass drum. I understand that it gives extra oomph by adding low end, but frankly that's what most bands have a bass player for.
I'd much rather see semi-polyrythms as in the beginning of HTF. That part is just plain brilliant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on January 24, 2015, 01:44:48 PM
I love MM's drumming on DT12, I find it fresh, exciting and inspiring. He definitely injected DT with some new life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 24, 2015, 05:21:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 24, 2015, 12:36:55 PM
I think if there's one thing I would like to see, or rather, stop seeing, is MM following every guitar chugga with his bass drum. I understand that it gives extra oomph by adding low end, but frankly that's what most bands have a bass player for.

Oh I can't agree with this anymore, I give too much effort to notice JMX behind MM's bass drum. The fact that MM can play so freaking fast means that JMX is dug even deeper below the whole sound. They need to fix that thing in the upcoming album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 04:06:37 AM
If you can not hear JMX in the Dream Theater album, you must be deaf. The bass is loud in this album, I would not understand how somebody would need to exert effort to hear it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Mypetgiress on January 25, 2015, 05:44:33 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 04:06:37 AM
If you can not hear JMX in the Dream Theater album, you must be deaf. The bass is loud in this album, I would not understand how somebody would need to exert effort to hear it.
I can't hear it. The best album for clear bass, IMO was ToT. Loved that album
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 06:34:04 AM
Really? Even in songs like TLG, StR, AftR and IT? Along for the Ride specifically has very distinct bass lines. The bass guitar is loud. It is  trebly though, I would like the bass to have more depth.

FII has the best bass sound for a DT album. The bass is so clear in that album that you can hear the nuances in the bass playing in Trial of Tears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 25, 2015, 07:13:25 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 06:34:04 AM
Really? Even in songs like TLG, StR, AftR and IT? Along for the Ride specifically has very distinct bass lines. The bass guitar is loud. It is  trebly though, I would have more depth.

FII jas the best bass sound for a DT album. The bass is so clear in that album that you can hear the nuances in the bass playing in Trial of Tears.

I can hear most of the bass in any song from the latest album, but I want the sound to be as clear as in FII in any of the albums, not only one album to be shown as an example to how bass should sound. Any of us can hear JP playing almost any of his notes, not many of us can notice lots of JMX's notes. I would love everyone to be as audible as possible. When I listen to Rush, the bass lines are just striking, I'd like the same to happen with DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 08:19:55 AM
I can hear some of it, but I have to strain my ear a lot to do so. For the most part the bass is buried under the doubled guitars and the bass drum. Even during guitar solos, where you would think you'd hear the bass clearly, you actually get three guitars on top of each other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 09:15:59 AM
TlG stands out as the easiest to discern the bass, but that's probably because they were going for a Rush mix in their Rush song.
But, False Awakening Suite for example, I can't tell whether there is a bass player or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on January 25, 2015, 09:16:27 AM
The bass production always seems to be sort of muddy so it gets lost in the mix outside of the fact that it's usually buried. Most of the time I have trouble even hearing the presence of the bass let along the actual bass part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 25, 2015, 09:26:21 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 09:15:59 AM
TlG stands out as the easiest to discern the bass, but that's probably because they were going for a Rush mix in their Rush song.
But, False Awakening Suite for example, I can't tell whether there is a bass player or not.

Yeah, They went for that Geddy bright, treble, growling bass sound.  I'm all for bass being in the front in all my music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 25, 2015, 10:41:42 AM
Yeah if there is one thing right with DT12 sound, is JMX being audible and upfront in most of the album. Even though the sound is a little trembly, it's still an improvement, and the drum & bass sections in TLG and IT are very cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 25, 2015, 11:18:03 AM
So, what do you guys think about MP's performance in OSI? Still feel like it's "the same fills" etc, or do you count it as part of his more creative days prior to Octavarium-BCSL?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 25, 2015, 11:21:55 AM
I do like a lot his OSI performance. I mean, it sounds like MP (in a good way), but nowhere in a level of predictiveness as his latest recordings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 11:40:38 AM
Wait, is there anything new? Or are you referring to the first two OSI albums?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 25, 2015, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 11:40:38 AM
Wait, is there anything new? Or are you referring to the first two OSI albums?
Sadly, nothing new with or without MP. Was referring to just the first two.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 25, 2015, 01:25:40 PM
One drum part in shutDOWN reminded me of The Great Debate ("some of us believe...") on first listen already, but I guess overall the more soundscape-oriented style of music combined with KM chopping up and editing the drum parts makes MP's drumming in OSI a little different from how he usually plays.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on January 25, 2015, 02:41:46 PM
Blind Faith is my favorite song of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence's first CD. And if we count the second as individual songs, it's also my favorite overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 03:18:28 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Holy Tune on January 25, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 03:18:28 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.

Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 06:30:41 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 25, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 03:18:28 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.

Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions :)

Oh, I completely agree  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on January 25, 2015, 06:36:01 PM
DT12 was a step in the right direction for JMX as far as being more audible individually. I also think his role is understated in the mix and sound of DT. He compliments JPs sound and fills up the rest of the sonic space, gives it more punch. If anything it's a testament to his technique and skill that he's so well in time with the drums and rhythm guitars that it just becomes one with the whole unit. But, take him out of the mix, and some of the music would feel more empty and hollow. People claim they can't hear him, but I think you can, you just give credit to JP because his tone stands out more, when really it's a combination of the Johns that makes up the overall sound. He's not necessarily completely buried, he's just highly integrated and that's part of what makes the DT sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 07:00:44 PM
Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 25, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions :)

My point is that JMX is already plenty audible. Yes, JP is too loud and I would love it if he would turn it down a notch in the next album (which is why I sometimes EQ down the lower mids when I listen). But JMX is audible and I did not even need to strain to hear him, whether I use my in-ears or my normal listening devices, or whether I use the mp3s or the HDTracks. The Alex Lifeson rhythm guitar comparison I think is a bit apples and oranges becase Rush's music is not really metal, so I would not expect the guitars to be as loud or hitting registers as low as DT's.

I was reacting to these statements:

Quote from: rumborak on January 25, 2015, 08:19:55 AM
I can hear some of it, but I have to strain my ear a lot to do so.

Quote from: James Mypetgiress on January 25, 2015, 05:44:33 AM
I can't hear it.

Quote from: The Holy Tune on January 24, 2015, 05:21:37 PM
I give too much effort to notice JMX behind MM's bass drum.

And I repeatedly listened to the songs to see where I had to exert effort to hear JMX. rumborak mentioned FAS, and I agree that JMX is quite hard to distinguish in that song, but I think it is a matter of arrangement where they are trying to mimic an orchestra. So the effect is like how the bass sounded in the Overture of SDOIT. But outside of FAS, I have yet to find a song where JMX is so buried that I had to make an effort to hear him. Are there any specific songs or instances where I can hear this JMX buried in the mix?

Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment.

Music plays differently on different equipment. The compressed mp3s play well on car speakers and in loud environments while listening to mobile devices. But they sound like crap in good equipment and with in-ears. For the bass mix, I find that the Dream Theater album already has very audible bass in normal equipment. The consequence of that is that it could sometimes be overbearing when I use my in-ears. For example, TLG's bass is really loud when I use in-ears, it's almost like JMX is using a Taurus pedal the whole song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 07:12:36 PM
JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 07:14:14 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 07:12:36 PM
JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: theseoafs on January 25, 2015, 07:22:59 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 07:14:14 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 07:12:36 PM
JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.

False Awakening Suite.

But more than that, the problem really is that JMX is only audible at particular points, which is something you really can only say about him (that is the other members of the band are always audible when they're playing).  Sure, he's audible during the solos of a few songs on DT12, but when his designated "moment" is over, he drifts right back into the background, the mix muddying everything he plays.  It shouldn't be like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 07:39:47 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on January 25, 2015, 07:22:59 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 07:14:14 PM
Quote from: Lucien on January 25, 2015, 07:12:36 PM
JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.

False Awakening Suite.

But more than that, the problem really is that JMX is only audible at particular points, which is something you really can only say about him (that is the other members of the band are always audible when they're playing).  Sure, he's audible during the solos of a few songs on DT12, but when his designated "moment" is over, he drifts right back into the background, the mix muddying everything he plays.  It shouldn't be like that.

Yeah, FAS, but again, it is mixed ala SDOIT overture so the layered sound is what makes JMX sound buried. Listen to the Overture and you will find the same effect on JMX's sound in that song.

As to him only being heard in moments, I still can not find that description in any of the other DT12 songs. I think what most of you are describing are the moments where there are lots of heavy riffing. But bass playing usually aims for an integrated sound (as Rodni mentioned), giving the rhythm section the base, the foundation, which the other instruments build up on.

JMX has been playing this way since the start. Go back to Caught in a Web and The Mirror/Lie, for example. Or the heavy riffing part in songs like Peruvian Skies and Scarred. Or the intro of Beyond This Life. The bass integrates to the riffing of JP that it sometimes sounds indistinguishable unless you have trained your ears to hear the registers of the bass guitar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 25, 2015, 08:02:13 PM
A lot of the time when JM blends in, it's because he's doubling the guitar, but more often than not, I can make out the bass guitar fine. I find modern rock/metal mixes in general tend to make the bass guitar less distinguishable and more of a "presence" in the low end, unlike older recordings where everything was more balanced without being EQ'd into such a specific register.

I can't say I really hear him on FAS, but I don't think he's doing more than doubling there either, given the orchestral style arrangement. But I can't even make out his rhythm there, whether he's playing 8ths or 16ths or whatever. For the most part, he's pretty audible on DT12, and you can make out that nice bass attack, but he still blends into the background on the heavier stuff.

I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 25, 2015, 08:30:05 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on January 24, 2015, 01:44:48 PM
I love MM's drumming on DT12, I find it fresh, exciting and inspiring. He definitely injected DT with some new life.

I would say that MM brought back an integrated sound to DT. I can understand how some could find MM's drumming underwhelming since his drumming really is not about doing complex fills. It's about keeping the music together. I previously used the analogy that MP plays drums like a lead guitarist while MM plays drums like a bassist. If you are looking for tasty fills, as some would call it, you won't really get much of that from MM. He composes his parts to highlight what the others are doing, to point you to the direction the song is going, to tie the different parts together. His parts do not sound flashy on the surface, but when I look at it in the context of the song, I always find myself smiling. In IT, he was outstanding. Going up and down the scale following the melodies of the song, even the sticks hitting the rims are going up and down the scale. Then there are portions where he is highlighting two musical parts at once. Just amazing drumming from the standpoint of the song as a whole.

I find the following comparison illustrative of the difference between MP and MM's style: the bridge and instrumental section of Wither and the instrumental section of The Bigger Picture. Both parts have the other members dialing down the wankiness and going for a cinematic feel, with slow melodies and harmonies. For MP, he does one creative fill after another, like he's trying to fill up the space. MM, on the other hand, lets the thing simmer in the initial half. And then in the second half, he does some snare and tom fills, but his focus is actually on highlighting the harmony using his ride cymbals which matches the harmony note for note. Love it. Anyway, I just think this comparison sort of highlights the difference in approaches between MP and MM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 26, 2015, 06:09:30 AM
I think him being able and willing to step back and play for the song is all nice and everything. But it's a bit like buying a Ferrari and then only using for grocery shopping trips.
I don't know. When I heard that DT was gonna get a seasoned Berklee professor with a huge drum kit, I was excited to hear some crazy shit being played. Insane rhythms, different styles, that kind of stuff. Playing for the song, no offense to MM, a lot of drummers can do that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 06:24:03 AM
Can you cite specific examples where other drummers played to the song the way MM did in IT, for example, where the drums follow going up and down the scale, different rides and hi-hats are used depending on whether a higher or a lower key is appropriate, or you have the bass drums complementing the bass guitar while the other drums are simultaneously complementing the other instruments? Or you have the left part of the body drumming to complement the keyboard while the right part is doing another pattern? Even the simpler patterns like a higher-pitched ride complementing a higher pitched harmony like the way he did in The Bigger Picture, have you heard another drummer play like that?

I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2015, 07:05:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 25, 2015, 08:02:13 PM
I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.
That would be fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 26, 2015, 12:50:43 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 06:24:03 AM
I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.

I don't think MP ever did that.
I'm just saying, one of the aspects of DT that I always loved was that, while seemingly every instrument was kinda doing its own thing, they all came together to form a cohesive whole. Like, as if every instrument had a piece to the puzzle that on its made no sense, but when it all gets put on the floor together, the lines add together to form a picture you never would have guessed.
When MM follows the guitar with the bass drum, and the keyboard with the toms, and whatnot, that's all very skillful indeed. Just not what I thought made DT stand out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 26, 2015, 12:50:43 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 06:24:03 AM
I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.

I don't think MP ever did that.

I was not talking about MP. I was reacting to your expectation of MM to show off crazy rhythms and techniques because he is a Berklee prof. My point is that one of the defining traits of an academic is discipline and that was what MM displayed in DT so far. He would bring out his bag of tricks when the song calls for it.

I am pretty sure we would hear more crazy stuff from MM if the songs in the next album calls for it. The short songs of DT12 does not really allow that much room for showcasing MM's skill set, which is why he really shone in IT. He had room to show off crazy skills in that longer format. It's like MP in FII. Most of his drumming skills are showcased in LITS and TOT, not the shorter songs. MM did do some amazing stuff in the short songs especially Surrender to Reason and TLG.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 26, 2015, 03:28:37 PM
Yet if you've followed his career, he's never done that. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
Yes, because Egg Zooming is not amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 26, 2015, 04:53:35 PM
But it's not out of the norm for him really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 26, 2015, 08:36:22 PM
Sarcasm got lost in the translation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 30, 2015, 08:42:23 PM
Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 30, 2015, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 30, 2015, 08:42:23 PM
Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.
Anna Lee
Through Her Eyes
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 30, 2015, 08:51:15 PM
That's because sex is death.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on January 30, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 30, 2015, 08:42:23 PM
Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

No lyrics, just orgasm sounds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on January 30, 2015, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on January 30, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 30, 2015, 08:42:23 PM
Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.

No lyrics, just orgasm sounds.
She was faking
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on January 31, 2015, 02:14:58 AM
The Dance of Eternity may not have lyrics, but it represents sex. Crazy ass kinky fuckin' sex.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 31, 2015, 04:01:45 AM
What about Voices?: "Sucks his dick, Captain Sex"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 31, 2015, 05:31:48 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 30, 2015, 08:42:23 PM
Maybe not controversial, but an interesting thing nonetheless: Has anybody noticed how DT has no sexual lyrics whatsoever? Like, every metal band I know has raunchy lyrics here and there, but DT always stayed away from it.
I don't want to say that they are too mature for it, but I don't think they are immature enough to do a good job with it.

Besides, all of these guys are long-time married.  Most lyrics like that are written by single people or musicians who play "fuck the groupie" every night.  From that standpoint, the guys in the band seem pretty tame.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlackInk on January 31, 2015, 05:34:33 AM
Maybe they don't have lyrics about just sex. But there's definetely some sex in the SFaM story. Not to mention the porn sound interlude. Though that might just be the only sex in that story.

EDIT: Never mind, I somehow missed that this had already been discussed, and only managed to read hef's response..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 05:39:26 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2015, 07:05:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 25, 2015, 08:02:13 PM
I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.
That would be fantastic.

Hell - even a mix like Black Clouds would be good at this point.

Although i'd *settle* for another album like DT12 as long as they get a more traditional snare sound.


My Ideal Mix : Octavarium or FII

What I'd Settle For : BC&SL / DT12 with a tighter snare.

What we'll probably get : DT12 x 2 - just with less of a thudding snare - since MM has been vocal about how it affected his technique and

I don't think two DT albums sound identical.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlackInk on January 31, 2015, 05:41:08 AM
Not me. The guitar's should be better too. I don't like listening to a guitar played through a hundred pounds of cotton candy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 05:43:20 AM
I like a good mix as much as the next person ( ok maybe the next 5th person...)

But I'm not gonna be too downhearted if we get another album like DT12 . the snare sounded great initially but got tiresome after a while.

As long as the songs are great and the production is at least *good* then i'm usually happy.

I don't think we'll get another album that breathes as much as FII again though :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 31, 2015, 05:44:41 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 05:43:20 AM
I like a good mix as much as the next person ( ok maybe the next 5th person...)

But I'm not gonna be too downhearted if we get another album like DT12 . the snare sounded great initially but got tiresome after a while.

As long as the songs are great and the production is at least *good* then i'm usually happy.

I don't think we'll get another album that breathes as much as FII again though :(
This is me.

I would love another FII-style mix.

But as long as it is at least as good as everything post-WDADU, I will be OK.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 05:55:49 AM
I don't even mind the sound of SC.

At least the drums were nicely balanced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on January 31, 2015, 09:01:48 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 05:55:49 AM
I don't even mind the sound of SC.

At least the drums were nicely balanced.

I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on January 31, 2015, 09:20:39 AM
Ya know I'm relatively educated in sound mixes and sound quality but I haven't had any issue with what they've done lately. 

If pressed I would say FII probably is the best mix but I think SC is a perfectly appropriate mix for the style that they had. 

We can all agree that WDADU is a mix they definitely want to stay away from (but even I can put that aside and enjoy the album). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Jaq on January 31, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on January 31, 2015, 09:20:39 AM
Ya know I'm relatively educated in sound mixes and sound quality but I haven't had any issue with what they've done lately. 

If pressed I would say FII probably is the best mix but I think SC is a perfectly appropriate mix for the style that they had. 

We can all agree that WDADU is a mix they definitely want to stay away from (but even I can put that aside and enjoy the album).

I haven't had a problem with their mixes and sound quality either. In fact if you want some controversy: I think a lot of people overemphasize perceptions of how awful music sounds to be able to boast about what they know. And in some cases, all they know is "brickwalled" and "compression", but that doesn't stop them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on January 31, 2015, 10:24:30 AM
Yeah I try not to do that. I tend to base my enjoyment on albums as a whole and not just listen through once and go " well the mastering could use less mid range EQ and track 2 needs less attack on the limiter blah blah".

I don't really care about any of that.

I might comment somewhere down the line that - yeah the album is a little "hot" overall.

But I never wanna be the guy who chucks around buzzwords to appear knowledgeable in music production as I'm largely self taught as it is.

:)

As I've mentioned previously - I hate when something gets released - and the internet's immediate

reaction is "here's what's wrong with it"

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 31, 2015, 11:34:51 AM
I didn't know much about terms like that until I came here but I do have a good ear to pick up on it so the education I received here from some people was fruitful for me because I always wondered why things sounded different from one mix to the next.  So now I do understand terms like brickwalled and can empathize with people who find it to be a good thing, bad thing, or just plain old indifferent towards it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 31, 2015, 12:30:34 PM
Quote from: Jaq on January 31, 2015, 10:14:51 AM
I haven't had a problem with their mixes and sound quality either. In fact if you want some controversy: I think a lot of people overemphasize perceptions of how awful music sounds to be able to boast about what they know. And in some cases, all they know is "brickwalled" and "compression", but that doesn't stop them.

Yeah, I would say that even if there are some people who do that, there are a lot of us who don't. I also don't think it's really a "controversial opinion" to essentially accuse people of lying, but whatever. I'll freely admit that I know next to nothing about music production, but the non-HDTracks versions of SC and DT12 are not the most pleasant albums to listen to for me. That's just how I experienced those. I also don't like the mix of DT12 that well from an aesthetic point of view—the guitar is too powerful. But while ADTOE isn't going to win any awards for production, I wouldn't mind at all if DT13 sounded similar to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 31, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
Having a well trained ear and having a bit of knowledge about audio isn't for the sake of boasting, it's about giving critical feedback on a recording in the hope of making a change in future.
For as long as people remain ignorant and try to dismiss those with a higher standard than "it sounds ok on my car stereo", we're going to keep getting subpar sounding albums from the music industry that have a negative impact on the recording and the listening experience.
If you care about listening to music, there is no benefit to compressing an album to within an inch of being white noise. And if you don't care and don't hear any problem, it's of no detriment to you for it to be done to the standards of those that do. It's a win-win!

I'm speaking in general here, not about DT albums specifically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on February 01, 2015, 12:39:35 AM
Quote from: 425 on January 31, 2015, 12:30:34 PM
But while ADTOE isn't going to win any awards for production, I wouldn't mind at all if DT13 sounded similar to it.
I'm not overly critical of DT's production, I like how their albums sound in general, but ADTOE is blatantly and by far the worst sounding record they put out since their debut album. The sound is muddy, the guitars are as if you put a blanket over your speakers (a really thick one), the drums are woefully inconsistent, many fills are entirely buried (for instance, listen to the OTBOA drum stem, there's an amazing fill right before the keyboard break, which is virtually non-existent in the final mix). Listen to almost any other DT album, then suddenly pop in ADTOE and it will make it sound like a demo, I wouldn't want to go back to that.

I agree with Blob.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 01, 2015, 12:52:10 AM
I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo. It doesn't sound terrible, but it doesn't sound polished or finished. Other albums have had worse compression, but they've all had much better mixes.
The drums have no kick to them, no punch to the bass drum, the snare is dead, the cymbals have no highs or presence. The guitars are muddy with those bassy mids. The whole thing sounds off.

I don't know why DT stopped using Kevin Shirley. His stuff was their best sounding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 01, 2015, 01:55:22 AM
I think the keys on ADTOE generally sound good and the vox usually do. The guitars are okay at times but a far cry from the greatness of JP's ToT sound. And the bass and drums are just way off. If they had the ADTOE drum sound with the DT12 drum volume, the drums would be okay, but they're borderline unacceptable on both releases.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 01, 2015, 05:03:56 AM
I know it's a money thing, but getting a top notch producer to push them musically would help as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 01, 2015, 06:11:22 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on January 31, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
Having a well trained ear and having a bit of knowledge about audio isn't for the sake of boasting, it's about giving critical feedback on a recording in the hope of making a change in future.
For as long as people remain ignorant and try to dismiss those with a higher standard than "it sounds ok on my car stereo", we're going to keep getting subpar sounding albums from the music industry that have a negative impact on the recording and the listening experience.
If you care about listening to music, there is no benefit to compressing an album to within an inch of being white noise. And if you don't care and don't hear any problem, it's of no detriment to you for it to be done to the standards of those that do. It's a win-win!

I'm speaking in general here, not about DT albums specifically.
All of this.

While the production of ADTOE had its shortcomings (quiet drums, overuse of double-tracked vocals), I find it a lot more listenable than the crappy sound of DT12 with its muddy guitars, fake-sounding drums and overloud mastering.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 01, 2015, 06:26:15 AM
I had a listen to DT12 again yesterday and enjoyed it again ( I have the HD Tracks version ) but that snare just stands out like a sore thumb as they say.

With a snare like on any earlier album - and the HD Tracks as the final retail version - that album would be so much better . . .

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 07:34:22 AM
It's also unfortunate that right the first real track (TEI) drives home the drum computer sound. The section around 2:45 in the tune is probably supposed to showcase MM's flawless execution, but it really sounds like something I might have programmed in in Sonar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 01, 2015, 09:43:24 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on February 01, 2015, 12:39:35 AM
verly critical of DT's production, I like how their albums sound in general, but ADTOE is blatantly and by far the worst sounding record they put out since their debut album. The sound is muddy, the guitars are as if you put a blanket over your speakers (a really thick one), the drums are woefully inconsistent, many fills are entirely buried (for instance, listen to the OTBOA drum stem, there's an amazing fill right before the keyboard break, which is virtually non-existent in the final mix). Listen to almost any other DT album, then suddenly pop in ADTOE and it will make it sound like a demo, I wouldn't want to go back to that.

I agree with Blob.

See, I think part of the reason I don't mind the production of ADTOE is because 1) I'm not someone who listens extremely closely to drumming unless it jumps out at me, which Mangini rarely does and 2) I like it better when DT is softer than when they are heavier, so I actually don't mind the guitar being pulled back. I have noticed that ADTOE has a weak guitar sound sometimes (this jumps out on BITS), but DT12 is WAY overcompensated. I would rather have ADTOE's weak guitar than DT12's "this instrument alone is half the mix" guitar. And I don't notice drumming.

So yeah, while I'd rather have FII's sound than anything else, I think ADTOE sounds MUCH better than DT12. DT12 sounds kind of like what would happen if Willy Wonka's chocolate river flooded and turned the whole room into a chocolate swamp. I would also argue that ADTOE, as a finished product, sounds better than the CD version of SC, because SC is pretty heavily brickwalled. On the HDTracks, SC has a slight advantage due to having a better mix.

And I agree with Blob too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 01, 2015, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 07:34:22 AM
It's also unfortunate that right the first real track (TEI) drives home the drum computer sound. The section around 2:45 in the tune is probably supposed to showcase MM's flawless execution, but it really sounds like something I might have programmed in in Sonar.

It is a standard double pedal fast run, what is so robotic about that?

This MM sounds too perfect complaints are cracking me up. Yes, let's frown on technical virtuosity in a prog band!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 01, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 01, 2015, 11:37:49 AM
Seriously. I mean, think about the guy who everyone is comparing Mangini to. Even though Portnoy is clearly not as technically skilled as Mangini, I think he almost has to qualify as a "virtuoso," yet no one thinks he's lifeless. And no one here is saying "I like Portnoy better because he makes mistakes." I think that finding Portnoy to be a livelier drummer than Mangini is a completely fair position to hold. I also think it's totally fair if you disagree with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
Gavin Harrison, Neil Peart, Marco Minnemann, they're all virtuosos, but none of them I would call lifeless. But frankly, that's also because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record. That double bass run in TEI would sound good with a strong drum sound; it's just that with the sound on DT12 it sounds totally like a drum computer. And MM's precision only exacerbates the situation.

And to hit on the bigger point here, precision, while sorta "cool" in itself, almost always becomes problematic when overdone. In fact, any modern drum machine these days has a "humanize" option for exactly that reason. People perceive the slight imperfections in drumming, but they carry a lot of meaning, since any listener can tell whether the drummer was bored, excited, chill, whatever. That's what makes drumming an "expressive" instrument; if you take that element out by hitting exactly on time and exactly with the same velocity each time, for most people that actually takes away from the enjoyability of the performance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 01, 2015, 12:05:38 PM
I'm putting 100% of the blame on production value. Mangini has appeared to be very excited and expressive live with DT. It's their production which is utterly flat and sterile.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on February 01, 2015, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.
Implying that it's MM's fault how he sounds on DT12. Maybe he's too much of a pushover, but I still wouldn't blame the new guy for the drum production of a 20+ year old mega-act like DT. Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 01, 2015, 12:16:45 PM
Hey, we just need the next studio album recorded the same way as BTFW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on February 01, 2015, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.
Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.

I know BTFW lists JP as the producer, but I kinda wonder whether the reason BFTW sounds so much different is because JP was only peripherally involved. They were still touring during the time of the production after all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 01, 2015, 12:40:05 PM
That's why I like the drummer on Iced Earth's newest rather than former drummer Brent Smedley. He was a great drummer, but he sounded like a robot doubling Schaffer's guitar triplets (something Schaffer wanted) but it was boring over all. The new drummer sounded completely natural, and dynamic. Another example is when Schaffer re-recorded the Something Wicked Trilogy with Ripper Owens. Schaffer palm muted the riffs and Brent doubled them and sucked all the life out of the songs. Had they not made those changes, those songs would have been decent re-recordings. Same can be said about the re-recording of Dante's Inferno. Brent Smedley is a great drummer, but he has no feel. Sadly Mike Mangini is the same way. Amazing drummer, but he lacks feeling, something Portnoy was all about. Portnoy's drumming had personality. Mangini has some awesome moments on both DT albums he's on, but there is a significant noticeable difference in the drum sound.

That being said, I don't want Portnoy back, because, well...... ROOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 01, 2015, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on February 01, 2015, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 01, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
because they make sure their drums sound top notch on a record.
Anyway, it took them 3 sub-par releases (drum sound-wise) to finally get it right (BTFW's drum sound is excellent, one of my favorites ever), I can't see them screwing it up again the next time around.

I know BTFW lists JP as the producer, but I kinda wonder whether the reason BFTW sounds so much different is because JP was only peripherally involved. They were still touring during the time of the production after all.

We should remember that Mangini's hinted at dissatisfaction with the studio production of his drumming. While it's impossible to pin down exactly what caused the BTFW improvements, it's well within the realm of possibility that he spoke up about wanting to go with a different sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on February 02, 2015, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: abydos on February 01, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on February 02, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 01, 2015, 12:52:10 AM
I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 02, 2015, 10:02:43 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 02, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 01, 2015, 12:52:10 AM
I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII. 

There's also a big difference between what a demo sounded like in the early 90s, and what a demo sounds like
now, with modern technology. A DT "demo" these days is basically the rough guide tracks in the studio.

The album sounds like it has had zero production work, like they just hit the record button, then called it a day. The balance of the instruments is all off, the guitars are too loud and woofy, the drums are too low and sound completely dry, no reverb, no compression or limiting, no EQ'ing to bring out the punchy frequencies or make the cymbals come to life. If I handed over an album to get mixed and it came back sounding like that, I'd refuse to pay on the grounds that they didn't do anything.

That's not to say it sounds terrible or unlistenable, but without hesitation I'd say it's DT's worst sounding mix other than WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 02, 2015, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 02, 2015, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: abydos on February 01, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

But John Myung's playing isn't lifeless. There's always energy in his playing and his bass lines when heard always enhance the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 02, 2015, 10:36:33 AM
Yeah, we're talking about playing here, not how they present themselves on stage.

I don't know why exactly, but MM's playing on James' albums was much better, imo. What came out of the last two DT albums is why I still believe Virgil Donati would have been a better choice (at least musicwise, I guess they didn't quite hit it off on a personal level).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 02, 2015, 10:42:20 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 02, 2015, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: abydos on February 01, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 02, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 02, 2015, 10:42:20 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 02, 2015, 12:46:57 AM
Quote from: abydos on February 01, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
Technical virtuosity doesn't mean you have to be lifeless.

John Myung is "lifeless" but nobody ever gives him shit for it.  Somehow he's "zen" for it and "in the zone" so it's ok.  Let's put Billy Sheehan up there if that's what people really want but I think he'd look like a clown.

Man, if people don't like Mangini, that's fine.  But don't make it seem like it's just cuz he's not bouncing around, air-fisting, and spitting all over the place.  It's such a cop-out.  Jeez.

...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

No, the argument is whether the problematic attributes people have identified are a result of some inherent attribute of his playing (evenness or whatever) or simply the way it's being produced/mixed. It's the production issues, not Mangini as a person, that's the alternative to dislike.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 02, 2015, 11:52:41 AM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 02, 2015, 10:42:20 AM
...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Yeah, the only thing of Mangini's that I have to criticize is his playing style. From what I can tell of his personality from what he portrays on social media, in the drummer auditions documentary, etc., he's a great person as a human being and is someone who I would almost certainly want to be friends with if I knew him in real life. I also have no problem with his onstage demeanor, since he is certainly as lively and expressive as I would expect a drummer to be. And even his playing, I'm really only willing to critique as far as to say that I prefer Portnoy. I don't mean to say anything negative about Mangini's drumming, since when I listen to him I hear some pretty incredible stuff, I just mean that, like most drummers, he doesn't excite me the way Portnoy does. And trust me, I wanted to be excited by him—it's not like I went into ADTOE and DT12 with the mindset that I would automatically not like any non-Portnoy drummer in DT—I just wasn't, even after giving his playing on two albums ample opportunity to appeal to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 02, 2015, 06:21:39 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 02, 2015, 10:42:20 AM
...So do you think people just hate Mangini as a person? That no one can possibly dislike his playing? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I assure you it's very little to do with him as a person and much more about us (the fans in general). I would even question whether any of the assessments reflect any part of MM's playing, or whether it's mostly just opinionated fans imposing their preconceptions and expectations on everyone around them. Sure, people derive their interpretation from the source, but most of it says more about the listener and the fans than the player or the musicians. We all have preferences, and that's what influences what we expect, and in turn creates our conceptions about the band and players in general.

There's really no conception of what makes the perfect drummer unless I try and define it and I find some others to subjectively agree. There's no real objectivity in music, just opinions that might seem agreeable to some and maybe some inherently meaningless patterns that can assist our ability to interpret something from a particular point of view. I mean, it's abstract sound we're talking about here, in what world is one particular expression of a snare pop "better" than any other? When it's aesthetically pleasing? By what standard do you determine this? Furthermore, as soon as you define the 'rules' of how something should sound; define a particular pattern, you might even be limiting potential creativity without realising.

So, I conclude that MM is different (big shocker that one), and that most assessments of his playing are loaded with comparative preconceptions and expectations before they've even tried to appreciate his style in and of itself, or even consider the different ways he expresses differing styles. I'm being deliberately vague here because part of my point is that our conception of these sounds should be somewhat undefined and up to interpretation unless we're so sure of ourselves and our preferences that we wouldn't want them to change. Which is obviously not the case because most of us claim to want experimentation and for DT to play 'out of the box', forgetting that we're the ones that put them in the box in the first place! And besides, change is a constant.

I dunno.. Maybe everyone does realise that they're talking about themselves more than MM or anyone else, but it seems to me that those that are willing to make such bold claims as "MM doesn't play with emotion" either don't realise that there's no way they could possibly know this and is probably not even true. Or they truly believe that their conception of the player's sound is absolute. Or perhaps it's just the easiest way for them to express the 'differences' in their conception of different players and play styles.

They're both amazing drummers in their own right so whatever, the whole thing seems crazy. But you heard it from me so I guess I'm just talking about myself and I'm the crazy one.  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 02, 2015, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 02, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 01, 2015, 12:52:10 AM
I agree ADTOE sounds like a demo.

I can't even fathom this.  Listen to any DT demo and ADTOE sounds WAYYYY better.  I can concede that ADTOE may not sound as good as FII but there is a huge leap from the I&W demos or even the Falling Into Infinity demos (which sound pretty good as far as demos go) to ADTOE and then a minor-to-moderate jump to the quality of FII.
OK, but look it at outside the DT vacuum. How do DT albums sound compared to other prog albums? Hell, other RoadRunner albums? The answer, sadly, is worse. Substandard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 02, 2015, 07:18:40 PM
^^^ I honestly don't understand that post.  Are we all subjectively making our own opinions, or are we all inherently biased and not giving the benefit of the doubt?

I think there are too many assumptions and generalizations being made here for it to end well.   I for one have no idea if MM is a nice guy or not, but all evidence seems to point to him being a top guy.  I for one have no doubt that his technical prowess is formidable, and his reputation as a drum craftsman well and deservedly earned.   Whether he is "better" than Drummer X is wholly dependent on the standard used to compare, and the judge, but certainly he belongs in the conversation. 

Having said that, there are only four drummers that I purposefully buy or put on CDs to listen to in and of themselves:  Bonham, Collins, Peart, and Portnoy.   Mangini is not one of them.  Doesn't mean he sucks, or is an axe murderer or does hard drugs.  I know none of those things.  I listened to I&W the other day almost solely to listen to Mike P. drum.   And I don't know if it is his personality, his role in the band, his drumming skills, or just dumb luck, but the arrangements are such that there are parts that seem almost tailored to be heard in that fashion.   

In contrast, I cannot name one song on ADTOE or DT12 for which I do that.    Vince Neil is not the best singer in the world (by a long shot) but he is the best singer for Motley Crue.   That does not mean that John Corabi sucks.  Ace Frehley is not the best guitar player in the world, but he is the best guitar player for Kiss.   That does not mean that Vinnie Vincent or Bruce Kulick sucks.  I happen to think that Mike Portnoy is the best drummer for Dream Theater.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 02, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
Stadler, I agree with what you're saying. We all have preferences, and that's completely natural, in fact to know what you prefer is just being honest with yourself. But I think our preferences are the beginning of our assessment of these drummers. It's just we shouldn't start pretending that what we prefer personally is necessarily representative of the intent, or expressive qualities as perceived by the musician. I mean a lot of the greatest musicians (for the most part) weren't trying to conform to some kind of conception of what people think generally makes a great piece of music, but just happened to tap into something that collectively resonates among a large group. Technically speaking, anything could appeal to anyone depending on their experiences or points of view, there are no rules, but there are kind of standards that have been created where people expect things to be a certain way, for better or worse I'm sure it goes both ways. But still, I say to hell with that and do whatever but then I'd probably accidentally offend any fans I somehow acquire.  :mehlin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 04:43:46 AM
Believe it or not, there are some pretty standard criteria that come into play when asking whether a album has been well produced or not. It's not just "completely subjective". There are sonic flaws to consider, like the album being too loud and clipping. There are basic questions to ask about the mix, like whether instruments can be heard clearly, whether the low end is clear, etc. There are your cleanup issues, like how much autotune has been used, and can you obviously tell it's there? I can think of a handful of pretty obvious sonic issues on several recent DT records.

Granted, different styles work best with different mixes. Something like punk or black metal really doesn't need pristine production value to get the point across, and is supposed to sound loud and chaotic. What DT have been doing so far is I guess acceptable in the ears of most fans, but I'd love to hear them really mastefully produce another album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on February 03, 2015, 05:31:21 AM
I hate saying anything bad about Mangini, but this really isn't about what he is doing wrong as opposed to what "more" he could be doing.

Long time fans of DT were probably drawn to the band because it was different.  To some it wasn't necessarily revolutionary, but it was a band finally combining a lot of elements that were long overdue for a play date.

So there is a need for DT to challenge their fans with new creativity.  Many felt it was getting less new with each album.  The arrival of Mangini created the hopes that a completely new perspective would add some truly new ideas.

Instead of shaking it up, Mangini instead seems to blend in.  There is nothing specifically wrong with his playing.  I don't think he sounds robotic.  I don't think anything he plays is bad.  But it feels like it is more trying to fit in than inserting his own personality.

I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 05:46:17 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on February 03, 2015, 05:31:21 AM
I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.

 :lol

Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings!  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 03, 2015, 05:54:47 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 02, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
Stadler, I agree with what you're saying. We all have preferences, and that's completely natural, in fact to know what you prefer is just being honest with yourself. But I think our preferences are the beginning of our assessment of these drummers. It's just we shouldn't start pretending that what we prefer personally is necessarily representative of the intent, or expressive qualities as perceived by the musician. I mean a lot of the greatest musicians (for the most part) weren't trying to conform to some kind of conception of what people think generally makes a great piece of music, but just happened to tap into something that collectively resonates among a large group. Technically speaking, anything could appeal to anyone depending on their experiences or points of view, there are no rules, but there are kind of standards that have been created where people expect things to be a certain way, for better or worse I'm sure it goes both ways. But still, I say to hell with that and do whatever but then I'd probably accidentally offend any fans I somehow acquire.  :mehlin

Ah, I got you now.  And on that, I agree 1000%. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 03, 2015, 06:01:20 AM
Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 04:43:46 AM
Believe it or not, there are some pretty standard criteria that come into play when asking whether a album has been well produced or not. It's not just "completely subjective". There are sonic flaws to consider, like the album being too loud and clipping. There are basic questions to ask about the mix, like whether instruments can be heard clearly, whether the low end is clear, etc. There are your cleanup issues, like how much autotune has been used, and can you obviously tell it's there? I can think of a handful of pretty obvious sonic issues on several recent DT records.

Sorry to be a pedant, but it IS subjective, as there is no "standard", just criteria that a group - as opposed to an individual - have (subjectively) adopted to help the conversation.   Chris Kimsey's work with Marillion sounds nothing like Martin Birch's work with Maiden, which sound nothing like Owen Morris' work with Oasis, and while some (not all) of your criteria are common to the three, not all are, and none is "more right" in the strict sense of the word.

Quote
Granted, different styles work best with different mixes. Something like punk or black metal really doesn't need pristine production value to get the point across, and is supposed to sound loud and chaotic. What DT have been doing so far is I guess acceptable in the ears of most fans, but I'd love to hear them really mastefully produce another album.

Personally, my critiques have nothing to do with the "production" of the records, and while I do think they might benefit from their own Nick Raskulinecz, it wouldn't just be "sound quality" (whatever that is).  I kind of tune out when people start saying "it'd be a great album but for the production..." as I think really great albums transcend the production.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 06:04:37 AM
I'm a fan of Mangini and actually prefer his contribution to the band. MP's schtick had worn thin on me. So, I get a bit tired of reading posts about 'robot' this and 'emotionless' that, and he just plays along with the band. Thus, I tend to stay away from the DT side more than ever before.

Still, even when posters don't say it, we all understand that it's just their opinion, right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 06:08:49 AM
Stadler,

We've had our difficulties at DTF with the concept of 'subjective' vs. 'objective'.  :lol

See also; Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people? (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41909.0)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 03, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
I think what Skeever is referring to is, there is a certain "engineering" aspect to recording music. E.g. did you make sure that none of your inputs are clipping, or too low. Did you have a look at the overall spectrum when mastering.
While any of those choices can of course be overridden as an artistic choice, they *do* then deviate from the standard, objective engineering criteria.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 03, 2015, 07:29:10 AM
Given JP's power within the band and as producer you would have to conclude that the sound on the last 2 albums is exactly what
he wanted. My big question is...what kind of system does he (and others who make decisions) listen to the final product before
they sign off? It's got to be very high end equipment within the studio right? Maybe that system is so high end and so much different
than my $1,500.00 system and Klipsh speakers that they hear something completely different than I can. I really don't know.

I've posted my thoughts on the sonics of the last 2 albums too many times and it's dead horse territory but I'm truly trying
to understand how the producer and engineer (and others who make the final decision) make the call that it's ready for
mass consumption. And do they just listen through super high end equipment or multiple formats?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on February 03, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 05:46:17 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on February 03, 2015, 05:31:21 AM
I'm sure I've overlooked something he's added, but I will leave that up to those that proclaim the superiority of Mangini in DT.  Please share what he adds to the DT sound barring 1) the "drum fills" 2) how he follows each band member with a specific drum instrument 3) technical ability.  Please point to specific song sections with a deeper analysis.

 :lol

Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings!  ???

So that's all he brings?  Maybe I'm not missing anything then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on February 03, 2015, 11:26:34 AM
 We need a new album...stat!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 03, 2015, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: Calvin6s on February 03, 2015, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 05:46:17 AM
Please tell me what he brings...other than what he brings!  ???

So that's all he brings?  Maybe I'm not missing anything then.

(https://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140531015302/villains/images/e/e8/It's_Already_Been_Brought-en!.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 03, 2015, 11:29:19 AM
MP put it out, MM brought it back in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 03, 2015, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: Podaar on February 03, 2015, 06:08:49 AM
Stadler,

We've had our difficulties at DTF with the concept of 'subjective' vs. 'objective'.  :lol

See also; Are "prog" fans generally more open minded people? (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41909.0)

Don't get me started!  Anyone who's been over at MP.com knows it is a subject passionate to my heart, and on which I have pretty definitive opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vtgrad on February 03, 2015, 01:29:52 PM
Quote from: emtee on February 03, 2015, 07:29:10 AM
Given JP's power within the band and as producer you would have to conclude that the sound on the last 2 albums is exactly what
he wanted. My big question is...what kind of system does he (and others who make decisions) listen to the final product before
they sign off? It's got to be very high end equipment within the studio right? Maybe that system is so high end and so much different
than my $1,500.00 system and Klipsh speakers that they hear something completely different than I can. I really don't know.

I've posted my thoughts on the sonics of the last 2 albums too many times and it's dead horse territory but I'm truly trying
to understand how the producer and engineer (and others who make the final decision) make the call that it's ready for
mass consumption. And do they just listen through super high end equipment or multiple formats?

For ADToE and DT12, I fiddled with my mp3 player until I found what "I" thought sounded the best; which in my case was the "acoustic" setting.  Using a set of medium to high-end phones, both albums sound wonderful.  Drums and bass have punch and the instrument separation sounds fine to my ears.  However, put either one of those albums on my full system (an old Sony system with pre-set EQs) and it gets muddy and lacks separation.  Conversely, FII sounds magnificent on my mp3 set-up and stellar on my full system set-up.  Again, these are just my opinions.

I think it would be interesting to hear (or read) JP's take on the production of the last two albums specific to what we banter about here in forum-land; I'm sure he or a member of his family has a presence here.  I'm not saying he should make a comment... please don't misunderstand that.  I'm just saying it may be cool to hear from the man himself.

Again, I'm not saying he needs to defend himself or anything like that... not at all.  I don't want to be thought of as demanding anything from JP or the rest of DT.  I'm just thinking about how cool it would be to know his viewpoints on our (DTF's) viewpoints.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 06:15:06 PM
Absolutely! It would certainly be interesting to hear from the man himself. I dunno what we'd expect him to say though...

"Hey guys! We're going through a bit of a paradigm shift at the moment and we're always in constant motion, but I generally have a vision for how I want it to sound, it's often never enough though, you guys just keep building me up and breaking me down, it's not always easy seeing the bigger picture without tunnel vision. I don't wanna take this too far, just wanted to do some damage control because I believe I've been misunderstood, but no need to look past me and I appreciate the wishful thinking. It's only a matter of time before it's the way it used to be so have a little blind faith and we'll be finally free of this great debate. We're all surrounded by a great team of sound engineers so dw guys, i'll take the time, I'm just at home and about to head to the studio, catch you guys another day!"

Terrible I know... :P  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 03, 2015, 06:23:12 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 06:15:06 PM
Absolutely! It would certainly be interesting to hear from the man himself. I dunno what we'd expect him to say though...

"Hey guys! We're going through a bit of a paradigm shift at the moment and we're always in constant motion, but I generally have a vision for how I want it to sound, it's often never enough though, you guys just keep building me up and breaking me down, it's not always easy seeing the bigger picture without tunnel vision. I don't wanna take this too far, just wanted to do some damage control because I believe I've been misunderstood, but no need to look past me and I appreciate the wishful thinking. It's only a matter of time before it's the way it used to be so have a little blind faith and we'll be finally free of this great debate. We're all surrounded by a great team of sound engineers so dw guys, i'll take the time, I'm just at home and about to head to the studio, catch you guys another day!"

Terrible I know... :P  :laugh:

After which he'd never be open again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 03, 2015, 06:29:14 PM
ROOOOAAAAAAARRRR!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 03, 2015, 06:01:20 AM
Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 04:43:46 AM
Believe it or not, there are some pretty standard criteria that come into play when asking whether a album has been well produced or not. It's not just "completely subjective". There are sonic flaws to consider, like the album being too loud and clipping. There are basic questions to ask about the mix, like whether instruments can be heard clearly, whether the low end is clear, etc. There are your cleanup issues, like how much autotune has been used, and can you obviously tell it's there? I can think of a handful of pretty obvious sonic issues on several recent DT records.

Sorry to be a pedant, but it IS subjective, as there is no "standard", just criteria that a group - as opposed to an individual - have (subjectively) adopted to help the conversation.   Chris Kimsey's work with Marillion sounds nothing like Martin Birch's work with Maiden, which sound nothing like Owen Morris' work with Oasis, and while some (not all) of your criteria are common to the three, not all are, and none is "more right" in the strict sense of the word.

Quote
Granted, different styles work best with different mixes. Something like punk or black metal really doesn't need pristine production value to get the point across, and is supposed to sound loud and chaotic. What DT have been doing so far is I guess acceptable in the ears of most fans, but I'd love to hear them really mastefully produce another album.

Personally, my critiques have nothing to do with the "production" of the records, and while I do think they might benefit from their own Nick Raskulinecz, it wouldn't just be "sound quality" (whatever that is).  I kind of tune out when people start saying "it'd be a great album but for the production..." as I think really great albums transcend the production.

It's really strange that you have to preface the words "sound quality" with the "whatever that is" remark. That's like saying there's no such thing as a recommended PSI, because some people like to keep their tires (or footballs) over or under standards for whatever reason. Sure, there's some leeway, but when you get into very obvious mistakes like too much clipping, muddy sound, and unintentional evidence of autone and other correctional software, you're beyond the realm of there just being some artistic reason for the sound being a certain way.

IMO DT albums sound the way they do because DT have tried to make contemporary sounding albums without hiring producers and mixers who are known for producing great contemporary sounding albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
It's really strange that you have to preface the words "sound quality" with the "whatever that is" remark. That's like saying there's no such thing as a recommended PSI, because some people like to keep their tires (or footballs) over or under standards for whatever reason. Sure, there's some leeway, but when you get into very obvious mistakes like too much clipping, muddy sound, and unintentional evidence of autone and other correctional software, you're beyond the realm of there just being some artistic reason for the sound being a certain way.

IMO DT albums sound the way they do because DT have tried to make contemporary sounding albums without hiring producers and mixers who are known for producing great contemporary sounding albums.

Thing is, all of those things mentioned, while they can be mistakes, can also be artistic choices. They can also be initial mistakes that are deliberately developed from the original 'mistake' for creative reasons. What you're describing is a preconception about the sound quality, so it's your expectation for it. The 'standard' maybe collectively upheld by an outspoken group of people, but the standard doesn't really exist, or at least, imo shouldn't be imposed onto something like art. Throw your preconceptions and standards out the window because they're what filter your experience instead of appreciating the sound/music as it is. If you measure and compare everything and expect it to be a certain way you might miss something, or worse, limit your experience. Btw, that's not to say there's no such thing as a recommended PSI as an artist is going to meet those requirements at their own leisure. A recommendation is something that might be noted or considered for probably fairly logical and valid reasons, but it's not the same as an expected standard. Throwing away your expectations doesn't mean the artist is going to go crazy and make something that'll deafin' the average person or create something so muddy it's indistinguishable, because that's not really gonna be their intention. BUT if they really wanted to have that choice, they should be able to make it. I know that might seem a bit extreme or even silly but point is; why impose a limit on creativity? If you're worried that by not have these standards there'd be 'anarchy' if you will,  then you obviously don't have much faith in the artist. Which begs the question, what is the reason you expect these things? So the artist will personally satisfy your requirements? Well you can never expect the artist to do that just for you, only you can effect how you feel about the artists choices.

I don't actually direct this at you personally, just generally using your comment as an outlet for the discussion. Your point of view is actually completely valid. But it's not the only point of view. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 03, 2015, 10:50:14 PM
Here's the crux of this debate:

At least the last two Dream Theater albums have been produced/mixed in a way that is problematic to a wide segment of this board. There appear to be two (general) possible explanations offered for it. The first is articulated well by this:

Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
IMO DT albums sound the way they do because DT have tried to make contemporary sounding albums without hiring producers and mixers who are known for producing great contemporary sounding albums.

So basically, DT's going for something that would be "objectively" good in terms of sound quality, but for whatever reason, they're coming up short of that vision. Not short enough that they're disappointed with their product, certainly not short enough that they're commissioning remixes, remasters, etc., but still short.

The second is pretty well captured here:
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
Thing is, all of those things mentioned, while they can be mistakes, can also be artistic choices. They can also be initial mistakes that are deliberately developed from the original 'mistake' for creative reasons.

This viewpoint seems to hold that Dream Theater (or, at the very least, John Petrucci) approves of every little nuance in the production and couldn't imagine them getting better. All the choices were intentional and to the taste of the band members (or, at least, JP--MM's comments on the drum compression seem to betray some dissatisfaction on his part, but that's a separate discussion).

I think that if the second viewpoint turned out to be correct (which could only be proven with the sort of statement that vtgrad brought up on the last page), those who dislike the album's sound quality would voice their criticism differently. If you hold the first viewpoint, you're essentially assuming that if the album sounded like you want it to sound, that John Petrucci would also like the way it sounds--perhaps better than he likes the way the actual album sounds! If JP were to come out and explain that the way the album sounds is a reflection of his audio preferences for reasons x, y, and z, I think the dissenters would (or at least should) think "Hey, I still don't like it, but I can't blame him for doing what he did."

But, from our outside vantage point, I think that the first perspective is probably closer to the truth than the second (though anything is possible). Which seems more likely: a) that JP got DT12 to a sound quality level he felt worked and pretty much left it at that (I'm oversimplifying) or b) JP has a preference for clipping and makes sure some gets in there? B is possible, and the truth is probably somewhere in between (we can infer that he at least seems to like hot masters, after all), but A seems to be the more intuitive possibility. Dream Theater may be technical masters, but they are not perfect, as any listen to Chaos in Motion (referring to the performance, not the sound) will tell you. And just as JP will miss a note every now and then even though he wants to play everything perfectly, it's entirely possible that his production (and Chycki's mix, etc.) will fall short of the perfection of his vision in some areas as well.

And so that's why many here are so vocal about the frustration with the production. If it's an artistic choice, fine--you have to respect it, and if it's a deal-breaker, you can go find other bands that meet your personal production tastes/standards. But the band's process of and satisfaction with production and sound quality matters is not an easy thing to tease out. A lot of fans on this board prefer the band's longer tracks to shorter ones, and yet, though DT12 was almost exclusively short tracks, I didn't see many "man, the songs were too short" complaints. And that's not because everybody loves the album--as we know, response here is mixed. The reason why there weren't many complaints about the track length (or at least, one big but overlooked one) is that the band addressed why they did what they did, and while not everyone loves that decision, they understand it. So there's the "Well, fair enough" reaction. That's completely absent from the sound quality discussion, and due to the ambiguity present, we have this ongoing debate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 03, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
My best guess is that it's partially an image thing too. They're trying to reach a big market, and while they won't sacrifice their core sound for it, I think they're fine with making their CD "modem sounding". Only that, while one *can* produce a modern-sounding album and still have dynamics, JP isn't the guy who can make that happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 11:42:38 PM
Well surmised, you've certainly found the middle ground there, which is the best way to appreciate different perspectives. I guess with my view, I'm literally taking it to the extreme and might as well be saying "who cares what JP does, if he's happy with it, then that should be good enough for us". BUT it's obviously not good enough for some people and that's fine too, you can't pretend you like something when it is actually bothering you in some way. I think the root of my argument is attempting to question people's view on what they expect in the first place. Which is why I mentioned how perceived 'mistakes' can be an artistic choice, either to leave them in there for whatever reason or perhaps sometimes they're actually not mistakes at all. I mean really, I'm not gonna change peoples mind, but it might allow some people to reassess why a type of production issue is bothering them in the first place, and if it actually matters in the end. The reason I feel this view is important is because while criticism can be constructive, valid, relevant, some of it is just pointless whining and I don't always understand what the big deal is or why some people have allowed it to bother them so much in the first place. But I can appreciate these issues as seen by others and I sometimes even agree. It's just, sometimes I prefer not to ruin my listening experience with all these preconceptions and just listen to it for what it is, and appreciate it as presented.

It's a fairly passive attitude and certainly doesn't strive to change anything specifically, it just allows the artist to have complete creative freedom to grow on their own with out any impositions. The artist will naturally make the choices they feel best serves the music and I trust them to do that on their own, I don't want to tell them what to do. I have preferences too though but I don't expect things to always match up with them, that'd probably get boring anyway.

It is highly likely that it's to do with producing a more modern contemporary sounding album, possibly at the expense of some dynamic variation. But for all we know dynamic variation in the traditional sense is not even what they're going for. You actually do sacrifice some punch and some oomph in a more dynamic mix, and as unfortunate as it seems, sometimes people won't pay attention if it doesn't catch them. I'm certainly a more modern fan, and I might not have even got into them if there weren't some of those heavier songs with really full on production that gets your attention. For shame really, I hate to admit it because I actually prefer a more natural and dynamic sound as opposed to overcompression in most cases, but sometimes I actually quite like a good ol' chunky loud guitar riff. I think they do want to keep the fans happy though so in the end I rekon they'll likely find the middle ground as they grow and learn a bit more from each release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 04, 2015, 12:10:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 03, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
My best guess is that it's partially an image thing too. They're trying to reach a big market, and while they won't sacrifice their core sound for it, I think they're fine with making their CD "modem sounding". Only that, while one *can* produce a modern-sounding album and still have dynamics, JP isn't the guy who can make that happen.
If they are really trying to do that, then they should start listening to some contemporary soundingalbums and hear that their demos probably sound better than what DT puts out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 04, 2015, 07:46:00 AM
Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 07:55:44 PM


It's really strange that you have to preface the words "sound quality" with the "whatever that is" remark. That's like saying there's no such thing as a recommended PSI, because some people like to keep their tires (or footballs) over or under standards for whatever reason. Sure, there's some leeway, but when you get into very obvious mistakes like too much clipping, muddy sound, and unintentional evidence of autone and other correctional software, you're beyond the realm of there just being some artistic reason for the sound being a certain way.


Well, this is where I diverge from the majority, and in a big way.  Unless given proof of the contrary by the band members themselves (ala Rush with Vapor Trails) I assume that what gets issued by a band has the approval - tacit or otherwise - of that band, and so the clipping, muddy sound, and... evidence of autotune" (I cut "unintentional" because I don't know how you know that) is absolutely within the realm of "artistic reason".  You're not going to convince me that someone like Lars or James - who are outspoken even in a field that is known for having it's outspoken participants - aren't going to say "our album sounds like shit" if that's what they really believe?  James LaBrie?  Gene Simmons?   I get that at some level a band may not have the juice to push back on the record company, but while there are plenty of examples of artists biting the hand that feeds them, there are way too few examples of artists biting this particular handfor it to be as "cut and dry" as some people claim. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 04, 2015, 07:56:07 AM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 03, 2015, 10:50:14 PM

But, from our outside vantage point, I think that the first perspective is probably closer to the truth than the second (though anything is possible). Which seems more likely: a) that JP got DT12 to a sound quality level he felt worked and pretty much left it at that (I'm oversimplifying) or b) JP has a preference for clipping and makes sure some gets in there? B is possible, and the truth is probably somewhere in between (we can infer that he at least seems to like hot masters, after all), but A seems to be the more intuitive possibility. Dream Theater may be technical masters, but they are not perfect, as any listen to Chaos in Motion (referring to the performance, not the sound) will tell you. And just as JP will miss a note every now and then even though he wants to play everything perfectly, it's entirely possible that his production (and Chycki's mix, etc.) will fall short of the perfection of his vision in some areas as well.

And so that's why many here are so vocal about the frustration with the production. If it's an artistic choice, fine--you have to respect it, and if it's a deal-breaker, you can go find other bands that meet your personal production tastes/standards. But the band's process of and satisfaction with production and sound quality matters is not an easy thing to tease out. A lot of fans on this board prefer the band's longer tracks to shorter ones, and yet, though DT12 was almost exclusively short tracks, I didn't see many "man, the songs were too short" complaints. And that's not because everybody loves the album--as we know, response here is mixed. The reason why there weren't many complaints about the track length (or at least, one big but overlooked one) is that the band addressed why they did what they did, and while not everyone loves that decision, they understand it. So there's the "Well, fair enough" reaction. That's completely absent from the sound quality discussion, and due to the ambiguity present, we have this ongoing debate.

Kudos for trying to explain this issue, and for what it's worth I think you did a good job.  But in the "from our outside vantage point" paragraph you posit two choices and I don't think the choices are limited like that.  I don't think it has to be so blunt as "I LOVE clipping!"  It can run far deeper or even far shallower than that.  How do you know JP didn't put three versions of "This Is The Life" on his kid's iPod and asked her to "tell Daddy which one sounds best"?   There are SO many variables that go into this process that it isn't as simple as "A" or "B".

There's a great quote by Geddy Lee somewhere where he is explicitly asked about the hotter levels in modern recording, and his answer is consistent (I think) with what I've written here.  I'm paraphrasing, but he says "if it was totally up to me and me alone, I would do something softer, but it isn't, there are two other band members, a producer, an engineer, a mastering engineer, and a record company, all who have different ideas on what sounds good.  Our records are thus a compromise, but a compromise I can certainly live with."   What in art (at least the art made for public consumption) ISN'T a compromise? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 04, 2015, 08:44:11 AM
I have tried every way possible, internally to give the band the benefit of the doubt, without knowing who makes the decisions or
what process is followed when signing off on the final product, but I'll tell you it's damn hard to understand with all the talent
in the band, the high level of attentivness to detail, and multiple highly intelligent people surrounding the process...how you can
release an album that sounds like ADToE. I have to conclude, as I posted earlier, that it was intended to sound the way it did.
For me that is the hardest part to understand. And I will say I KNOW this can't be the case but it's so damn strange that your
former drummer quits the band, a guy who has commanded front and center sound on all the albums and then as soon as he is gone
the drums sound like they were recorded in a closet with foam padding in front of the closet door. As a fan I kept wondering if
JP decided he was going to have the drums sound the way HE wanted them to sound within the mix. Weak, distant and muffled.
Again I am sure this wasn't the case but I still wonder about the subconscious of JP and JLB. Obviously that would not have been
fair or kind to MM so I'm left scratching my head as to how and why. Listening to that album is akin to trying to admire the Mona
Lisa through a distant dirty window screen. You know there is beauty there but it's pretty tough to see.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 04, 2015, 10:02:02 AM
There's A Dramatic Turn Of Events..

And there's Death Magnetic.


Give me ADTOE any day...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 04, 2015, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 04, 2015, 10:02:02 AM
There's A Dramatic Turn Of Events..

And there's Death Magnetic.


Give me ADTOE any day...

This. I love Death Magnetic but it's difficult to get through the whole album because the production is so bad. ADTOE isn't the best sounding album, but it's fine by me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 04, 2015, 10:45:08 AM
Okay, sorry to be blunt about this, but it is the controversial opinions thread after all.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
Quote from: Skeever on February 03, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
It's really strange that you have to preface the words "sound quality" with the "whatever that is" remark. That's like saying there's no such thing as a recommended PSI, because some people like to keep their tires (or footballs) over or under standards for whatever reason. Sure, there's some leeway, but when you get into very obvious mistakes like too much clipping, muddy sound, and unintentional evidence of autone and other correctional software, you're beyond the realm of there just being some artistic reason for the sound being a certain way.

IMO DT albums sound the way they do because DT have tried to make contemporary sounding albums without hiring producers and mixers who are known for producing great contemporary sounding albums.

Thing is, all of those things mentioned, while they can be mistakes, can also be artistic choices. They can also be initial mistakes that are deliberately developed from the original 'mistake' for creative reasons.

Excessive clipping is making an album that is unpleasant for some people to listen to for no reason. DT12 and DT12 HDTracks SOUND basically the same, from a mix standpoint, but one is not excessively clipped, and therefore not unpleasant to listen to. If someone makes an album with a lot of clipping as an artistic choice, then that artistic choice is bad. It's an atrociously awful artistic choice. Because it pointlessly makes the experience unpleasant for a portion of the audience, and yields no tangible benefit.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
What you're describing is a preconception about the sound quality, so it's your expectation for it. The 'standard' maybe collectively upheld by an outspoken group of people, but the standard doesn't really exist, or at least, imo shouldn't be imposed onto something like art. Throw your preconceptions and standards out the window because they're what filter your experience instead of appreciating the sound/music as it is.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't really make sense. Certain aspects of music production are certainly matters of taste: whether to make it sound warm or cold, whether to double instruments, whether to process the vocals, how high each instrument should go in the mix. But when you say that not making an album that clips is just my personal preference and I shouldn't impose that standard on art and just appreciate the music as it is... To me, that's like saying "Hey, we've found a missing journal of Leonardo DaVinci saying he wanted to cover the Mona Lisa in a film that will make it blurry and hard to see any detail. So we're gonna do that now. What, you want to actually be able to look at the painting? Fuck you, your standard shouldn't be imposed onto something like art. Appreciate the blurry, filmy Mona Lisa as it is."

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
If you measure and compare everything and expect it to be a certain way you might miss something, or worse, limit your experience. Btw, that's not to say there's no such thing as a recommended PSI as an artist is going to meet those requirements at their own leisure. A recommendation is something that might be noted or considered for probably fairly logical and valid reasons, but it's not the same as an expected standard.

I'm sorry, but I do expect releases from bands on a label as big as Roadrunner to have good audio quality in the 21st century. The technology exists to do it, they just muck up the sound by trying to play the loudness game, and there's no reason to.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
Throwing away your expectations doesn't mean the artist is going to go crazy and make something that'll deafin' the average person or create something so muddy it's indistinguishable, because that's not really gonna be their intention.

Death Magnetic. Have you ever heard Death Magnetic? The CD version of that is, seriously, not listenable for many people. It's just terrible. They went crazy and made something that, if not the average person, a large percentage of listeners is not going to be able to even sit through, plus it's distorted all to hell. There's no excuse for that when you're Metallica, one of the richest bands in the world. And, I'm sorry, but I'm going to use the o-word. That is an objectively bad sounding album. The production quality of it is objectively terrible. It is distorted to an extreme degree and is so pointlessly loud that it is hard for many to listen to. That album is the perfect demonstration of the fact that there is objective good and bad quality in audio production. No one is going to listen to Death Magnetic and say that it is better produced than Fear of a Blank Planet.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 03, 2015, 08:27:08 PM
BUT if they really wanted to have that choice, they should be able to make it. I know that might seem a bit extreme or even silly but point is; why impose a limit on creativity? If you're worried that by not have these standards there'd be 'anarchy' if you will,  then you obviously don't have much faith in the artist. Which begs the question, what is the reason you expect these things? So the artist will personally satisfy your requirements? Well you can never expect the artist to do that just for you, only you can effect how you feel about the artists choices.

No one is saying "let's pass a law banning the loudness war." At the same time, you can't expect people to spend money on an album that is made so that it is painful to listen to for no good reason whatsoever and to have their reaction be "Eh, it was the artist's choice to make that album uncomfortable for me, and even though they did it for no reason I'm not going to have any reaction to this at all, because it's their creativity and they are always right."

Which brings me to a question that comes up in a lot of these discussions, and for which I've never seen a straight answer: If the loudness war seriously does not bother you at all in any way, great for you. But, clearly, it does bother a lot of people. This isn't ten cranky audiophiles, this is in no small part people who knew next to nothing about audio until they found that the new Dream Theater album gave them a headache. Those of us who it annoys are asking artists and producers and record companies to stop doing it, because it reduces the quality of their product. None of us are asking anyone who is not affected by the loudness war to join in. But why do those of you who do not care what the dynamic range of something is actively try to oppose us? We're saying "this makes the music a chore for us. There is no reason for them to do this. This should be fixed." If the music industry adopted our changes, everyone would be affected in one of two ways: 1) Positively or 2) Not at all. No one would be harmed by the changes we want made being made. There is no downside. So why do some of you oppose us so vehemently?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on February 04, 2015, 11:04:54 AM
So this is the equivalent of Death Magnetic?
Loud Noises (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8)
(https://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb146/dmart76/brick-loud-noises-b.jpg)

I abandoned Metallica long before Death Magnetic, so I only know what I hear, but not what I've actually heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 04, 2015, 11:16:07 AM
https://youtu.be/DRyIACDCc1I (https://youtu.be/DRyIACDCc1I)

There's a brief comparison of the CD version and the version that they released on Guitar Hero, which was for whatever reason a version that had not been clipped yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
I actually bought Death Magnetic on GH3 before the album was available so my conception of it wasn't tainted or predefined by anything. My GF at the time got the CD version of it shortly thereafter that I got the chance to listen to in the car on a few occasions, and never had any issues. But you'll probably think I'm as bad as Lars for passing my judgement from this perspective :lol
I'm well aware DM is considered an overcompressed abomination, but at no point do I consider it painful to listen to, it hasn't harmed me, and it has some pretty rockin' songs on it. What I'm really questioning, is what bothers you so much about clipping issues if that's the one that's gonna be the focus of our concerns? It happens sometimes, perhaps it's not always desirable but it's sometimes not noticeable and believe it or not, it can even be an effective way to deliberately distort a sound. Also, you have quite a bit of a preconception about how you interpret and filter the 'art' don't you? Alright, if you want, I guess it is like saying you should appreciate the Mona Lisa through a blurry lens, especially so if Leonardo DaVinci specifically says that it a valid and alternative point of view to experience the art. Maybe there's something you'll miss if you can't get passed your own impositions and truly believe it's not being expressed 'correctly'. I would respond to some specific parts of your posts, but I don't think I need to because overall you're just demonstrating how strong your expectations are and to me, you're not really questioning them which is all I'm encouraging. You don't have to accept the things you don't prefer, but you can't impose yourself onto them.

Anyway, I get where you're coming from. The bottom line as you put it, there is a group of people that feel this way. Personally, I think a lot of them are a bit outspoken and love to exaggerate and whine about everything. But that is a HUGE generalisation, I don't mean to take away from the legitimate concerns of those effected by this who want to appreciate the music more, but are having trouble with doing so for varying reasons. I'd like you to know that I don't oppose your viewpoint, I concede your points, but I'd still like to bring in to question why it bothers people soo much. I think you are in control of how much is has to bother you, and that is associated with your preconception/expectation etc. Are the people that take issue with this really being physically harmed and in pain from headaches induced from the compression levels of the music? This seems bizarre if you're doing this to yourself. Or are they pretentious snobs that want everything to conform to their point of view and probably complain about anything that slightly bothers them? That last part is probably only a select minority. :P
And I certainly wouldn't limit it to the things I mentioned, there's probably heaps of reasons why someone would feel this way. It's just at the end of the day, we're responsible for the effect the art has on us; not the artist. They're just reflecting aspects of ourselves for us to interpret and inspect; and the reason for this is we can only ever see things from our own subjective point of view. That's why objectivity really is only a collective illusion if you actually consider it from all angles, because you'll realise that there's always observational and environmental bias even when considering collective agreements (objectivity) that are taken for granted. I would take this a step further and say that even 'facts' are a type of belief, because you can't determine them to be true until you believe something to be true about them. And if something changes, the fact would need to be updated or discarded not unlike words in a dictionary. They're not absolute but that's getting into an entirely different discussion.. Although certainly related to my point.

Am I making any sense here or (https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/public/style_emoticons/emoticons/beat_deadhorse.gif)?   :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 04, 2015, 05:58:58 PM
I can simply say for myself, it has happened numerous times where I'm at work and listening to my music on shuffle. So, there's songs by Steven Wilson, Opeth, Depeche Mode, Genesis, and they all nicely follow each other.
And then, occasionally, a DT12 song comes on. And that event is usually followed by either a) me ripping out my ear buds or b) a desperate scramble to get my mouse pointer over to the volume slider.
It is just an insanely loud album, and for absolutely no reason. Even when I specifically listen to it, at some point while working I suddenly realize that I've been barraged by this sonic wall, and when the break in IT comes around, it's like stepping out of a really loud bar. Sure, you could still understand things, but the sheer volume just wears you out.
No other album in my collection does that. And that's a bad sign for DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 06:17:06 PM
That's it though, is it really entirely a sonic quality issue? Or is it a relative comparative issue based on an expectation of this 'standard'? Or are people just overly dramatic because it doesn't quite fit as neatly into their collection of music? Does DT12 actually sound bad, or does it require one to just turn the volume down a tad by comparison? Possibly a combination of all of the above, it may appear as I'm taking an extreme opposing view, but really I'm just trying to point out an aspect of this issue that isn't really being considered, and the answer is probably somewhere in between. I mean your situation is fair enough, I've even experienced a similar scenario with DT12, but it's nothing dramatic, and certainly nothing damaging unless I deliberately subjected myself to a really high volume, but you can do that with anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 04, 2015, 06:40:52 PM
Twist it any way you want, but DT12 stands out, to my, in a bad way out of my entire music collection (which is pretty big at this point).
As a general comment, Rodni, I think you would do well not constantly assigning ulterior motives or other such things for people who disagree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 06:47:38 PM
Sure, I'll take note. I certainly can't speak for other people and I didn't intend to come across in this way if that's how you see it. Truth is I'm actually incredibly neutral on the subject. But I do encourage people to question their beliefs and the things they take for granted, and perhaps consider why they feel a certain way about it in the first place, and most importantly, if it actually matters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 04, 2015, 06:49:50 PM
Yeah, but it's too fucking loud.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 04, 2015, 06:57:00 PM
Agreed.  I've heard worse but from a band like Dream Theater you expect so much more in a finished product.  It's a CD of some really great songs that you don't get to experience the way they were meant to be heard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 04, 2015, 07:37:01 PM
Yeah, it's way too loud and compressed sounding. That can good for a metal band, but in this case it's like DT wanted to make a record that sounded like Periphery (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEygCZ4LrEA) but instead of hiring the guy who does Periphery, they did it by themselves and hired the guy known for his work with Rush to help.

Again, what they were going for in theory wasn't bad, and I believe they had the best of intentions. But in their case doing it in house or getting their usual cast of Rush and Maiden producers wasn't going to do the trick.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 04, 2015, 08:17:55 PM
DT12 is too loud how ever you want to spin it. Sadly, it's pretty representative of modern metal albums, so it's not a relative thing, it's just tiring to the ears to listen to those volumes.

And there's no good listening volume for an overcompressed album. If you turn it down, it's still a wall of sound, but it somehow sounds too loud and too soft at the same time, and you can't make out anything. And if you turn it up, it just hurts. Whatever happened to using the volume control to turn it up?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 04, 2015, 08:20:11 PM
Maybe it's because I always listen to the HD version, but the sound of DT12 does not bother me.  I am not saying it sounds as awesome sonically as Awake or FII, but it's fine by me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 04, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
I'm really thankful that I can just listen and enjoy DT or any band for that matter and not really care how it's mixed. It all sounds good to me....I'm not that picky I guess
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 04, 2015, 09:54:27 PM
The earlier example of DT12 songs jumping out in a playlist that includes Genesis, Steven Wilson, and Depeche Mode is, in my opinion, invalid, because these other artists are not in the metal genre. As Blob has said, if you compare the DT12 music to the music of other metal bands nowadays, the loudness is relatively comparable.

My favorite mix for DT albums is Falling Into Infinity for the not-so-aggressive sounding songs, and Train of Thought for the aggressive sounding songs. I think we have to consider that DT's music has changed from the FII days, tilting towards the more metal side, so the mix for FII would not necessarily translate into the best-sounding mix for new DT songs.

That said, the loud mixing of DT songs started around the Systematic Chaos period. I tried to look at the context at why would metal bands engage in a loudness war starting from this period. The answer that I came up with is that the record labels are adjusting to the conditions of how music is being consumed. More and more, music is being consumed using mobile devices. The prevalent listening output device is the earphone, not hi-fi sound systems or even headphones. Music is listened to more and more in outdoor settings, while commuting to work, while walking in the park, etc. And music is listened to more and more on an individual track basis, not as a whole album, with users now able to create their own playlists, which they can put into shuffle settings. Because they do not listen to whole albums, they don't really experience the fatigue of listening to whole loud albums.

This morning, to test my hypothesis that this compressed "loud" music fits the context that I described, I arranged a playlist on my mobile phone that consists of Peruvian Skies, Endless Sacrifice, Constant Motion, Bridges in the Sky, and Behind the Veil. I used my best earphones that are NOT noise-canceling or in-ear. I listened to the playlist in my regular commute, where I have to take public transport and walk through thick crowds of people. My experience sort of confirmed that dynamic range means shit when I am in a crowd, in an outdoor setting. The best sounding songs in the said context was Constant Motion and Behind the Veil. I was able to hear the bass guitar, the cymbals, the riffs had power. And surprisingly, the MM snare in Behind the Veil sounded good in this environment. I can actually understand why producers would go for a loud mix if we assume that this is the context of the average consumer of music nowadays.

That said, I would want a much better mix next time, preferably an FII one. I actually have high hopes that the mix would improve towards that direction because of one trend: the increasing popularity of in-ear phones. Noise-canceling mobile listening equipment is the fastest-growing segment in the earphone market, and loudly mixed music is really overbearing with in-ear phones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 04, 2015, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
I actually bought Death Magnetic on GH3 before the album was available so my conception of it wasn't tainted or predefined by anything. My GF at the time got the CD version of it shortly thereafter that I got the chance to listen to in the car on a few occasions, and never had any issues. But you'll probably think I'm as bad as Lars for passing my judgement from this perspective :lol
I'm well aware DM is considered an overcompressed abomination, but at no point do I consider it painful to listen to, it hasn't harmed me, and it has some pretty rockin' songs on it.

Well, yes, a car stereo is not exactly the ideal listening environment when trying to detect sound quality. Besides that... Clearly you're one of the lucky ones who isn't affected by it. But I think it's important that you acknowledge that some of us are. I listened to the CD version of DM a total of once. I know the album pretty well from having heard non-CD versions, and agree that the songs are good, but for me and for a lot of people, the CD version is nigh unlistenable as is. And for some people it isn't, and good for them.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
What I'm really questioning, is what bothers you so much about clipping issues if that's the one that's gonna be the focus of our concerns? It happens sometimes, perhaps it's not always desirable but it's sometimes not noticeable and believe it or not, it can even be an effective way to deliberately distort a sound.

Okay,

1) As the comparison video in my last post demonstrates pretty soundly (and that's YouTube audio quality!) a highly compressed album just sounds worse than one that hasn't been highly compressed. Usually the difference in this area is minor unless it's a hatchet job of Death Magnetic proportions, but it definitely does.

2) It causes, for me and other people, fatigue to listen to a whole album of highly compressed music. I don't know the reason for this, something to do with the constant loudness or something, but it definitely does. I experienced this with Systematic Chaos before I hardly knew what clipping was or that SC was considered brickwalled. That's a long, brickwalled album, and by The Ministry of Lost Souls I would typically feel some discomfort in my ears, and in some cases a headache. That has gone away since I've switched to the HDTracks version, which is a far less compressed master.

It's not noticeable to a lot of people, yes. It's not noticeable in some instances, yes (Falling Into Infinity and Metallica's Black Album are both somewhat compressed, though not to the degree of DM or SC, and they sound pretty good). But in instances where it is taken to a certain point (I would say SC is to this point, and DM way way beyond it), it can cause that type of fatigue and discomfort for some people, myself included. I could not imagine it being a way of "distorting a sound," because it literally changes the entire album, not just one part of it. And even if it's not noticeable for you, it is noticeable and even painful for other people, so why not say "Okay, I don't experience this, but clearly it's a problem for others and it doesn't hurt me if they change it, so let's go ahead and agree, it should be changed."

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
Also, you have quite a bit of a preconception about how you interpret and filter the 'art' don't you? Alright, if you want, I guess it is like saying you should appreciate the Mona Lisa through a blurry lens, especially so if Leonardo DaVinci specifically says that it a valid and alternative point of view to experience the art.

Okay, but my point with the DaVinci example is that it's not optional. It's like they blurred up the original Mona Lisa and every single print, giving no one even the option of looking at the better quality version.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
Maybe there's something you'll miss if you can't get passed your own impositions and truly believe it's not being expressed 'correctly'. I would respond to some specific parts of your posts, but I don't think I need to because overall you're just demonstrating how strong your expectations are and to me, you're not really questioning them which is all I'm encouraging. You don't have to accept the things you don't prefer, but you can't impose yourself onto them.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider ear fatigue and headaches to be something that I should just "get passed" in order to realize John Petrucci's true artistic vision of a shitty master. It's not just a preference, it is avoiding discomfort and pain just from listening to a damn album.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
Are the people that take issue with this really being physically harmed and in pain from headaches induced from the compression levels of the music?

Yes, some of us are. It's not like a severe migraine headache, but it's bad enough to make me not really want to listen to the album again anytime soon.


Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
This seems bizarre if you're doing this to yourself.

We like the band, we often like the music. It's just this side-effect. I liked DT12 but found it hard to listen to; once I got the HDTracks I listened to it a lot more. I don't like having to deprive myself of listening to music that I like just because someone decided to do the stupid loudness trick.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
Or are they pretentious snobs that want everything to conform to their point of view and probably complain about anything that slightly bothers them? That last part is probably only a select minority. :P 

Yeah, and even if those people do exist, that really should not discount the totally valid complaints of many people.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
And I certainly wouldn't limit it to the things I mentioned, there's probably heaps of reasons why someone would feel this way. It's just at the end of the day, we're responsible for the effect the art has on us; not the artist.

Okay, but I would argue that mastering is not the art, it's the medium. It's like someone making a movie that's intentionally blurry and saying "don't blame me for how bad the picture quality is, you're responsible for the effects that the hatchet job done by my technicians has on you, I'm not."

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
They're just reflecting aspects of ourselves for us to interpret and inspect; and the reason for this is we can only ever see things from our own subjective point of view. That's why objectivity really is only a collective illusion if you actually consider it from all angles, because you'll realise that there's always observational and environmental bias even when considering collective agreements (objectivity) that are taken for granted. I would take this a step further and say that even 'facts' are a type of belief, because you can't determine them to be true until you believe something to be true about them. And if something changes, the fact would need to be updated or discarded not unlike words in a dictionary. They're not absolute but that's getting into an entirely different discussion.. Although certainly related to my point.

Disagree, but that's way outside the scope, so I won't go into it.

Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 04, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
Am I making any sense here or (https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/public/style_emoticons/emoticons/beat_deadhorse.gif)?

I get what you're saying, though I still don't totally understand even calling into question the simple idea of "stop doing things that fuck up the sound quality for no reason."


#lastminuteedit:
I agree 100% with rumbo, Hef, Prog, Skeever and Blob.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 05, 2015, 08:33:10 AM
For whatever it's worth I'm appreciative that some people here who are closer to the band than most of us have the courage to
speak freely about the sound issues. It gives me hope that there may be others close to the band not afraid to speak up. In the end
we all just want an album that sounds represenative of the talent and intelligence of the people involved with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 04, 2015, 10:45:08 AM
Excessive clipping is making an album that is unpleasant for some people to listen to for no reason. DT12 and DT12 HDTracks SOUND basically the same, from a mix standpoint, but one is not excessively clipped, and therefore not unpleasant to listen to. If someone makes an album with a lot of clipping as an artistic choice, then that artistic choice is bad. It's an atrociously awful artistic choice. Because it pointlessly makes the experience unpleasant for a portion of the audience, and yields no tangible benefit.

It's not just you, there are others echoing the same point, but the fact is, no matter how you slice it, it is STILL just your opinion.  Even calling on a certain standard to be your measuring stick makes it YOUR opinion.

At the end of the day, absent a comment from JP (or other rep from the band) saying "Wow, that fucker is just too loud, and the clipping is WTF", there is no other assumption that can be made besides "he/they wanted it this way".   Whether it makes sense or not, whether you would do it or not, or whether it is "pleasing" or not is irrelevant.   Yoko Ono has made a lucrative career out of making sounds - musical sounds - that are patently unpleasing to the ear.

Quote
I'm sorry, but I do expect releases from bands on a label as big as Roadrunner to have good audio quality in the 21st century. The technology exists to do it, they just muck up the sound by trying to play the loudness game, and there's no reason to.

Can you please show me where we all - I mean every single listener to music on the planet - have agreed to this universal standard of what "good audio quality" is?   Haha, I'm trying to be funny, not a dick, but hopefully you'll get the point.   

Quote
Death Magnetic. Have you ever heard Death Magnetic? The CD version of that is, seriously, not listenable for many people. It's just terrible. They went crazy and made something that, if not the average person, a large percentage of listeners is not going to be able to even sit through, plus it's distorted all to hell. There's no excuse for that when you're Metallica, one of the richest bands in the world. And, I'm sorry, but I'm going to use the o-word. That is an objectively bad sounding album. The production quality of it is objectively terrible. It is distorted to an extreme degree and is so pointlessly loud that it is hard for many to listen to. That album is the perfect demonstration of the fact that there is objective good and bad quality in audio production. No one is going to listen to Death Magnetic and say that it is better produced than Fear of a Blank Planet.

That is NOT OBJECTIVE.  You can have your own opinions, but you CANNOT have your own facts.  Make whatever case you want as to why a band SHOULD do things your way, but you cannot say that there is a right or wrong.   As a basic example, who said that an album HAS to be "easy" to listen to?   Where is that been decreed?   

And Metallica is a great example, because - and this is my opinion, only - I think people are being VERY hypocritical when talking about Death Magnetic as being "horribly" produced, and citing all the irrelevant facts about their "money" and "influence".  If you REALLY look closely at their catalogue, they have never taken the "easy" way on any level, and the sound of their records is but one aspect of it.  But I have absolutely not one doubt that Lars and James intended that record to sound exactly as it does.   PURELY artistic intent.  ...AJFA is an incredibly difficult album to digest; incredibly (for them) long songs, odd mix with little to no bass (thus overemphasizing the mid- and treble-registers).    SKoMonster; incredibly difficult album to digest; little in the way of melody to latch on to, almost no guitar playing in the traditional sense of the "rock solo"... Lulu; incredibly difficult album to digest; no lyrical touchstones to readily latch on to, odd (as in non-traditional) performances, etc.   I could go on.   

Quote
No one is saying "let's pass a law banning the loudness war." At the same time, you can't expect people to spend money on an album that is made so that it is painful to listen to for no good reason whatsoever and to have their reaction be "Eh, it was the artist's choice to make that album uncomfortable for me, and even though they did it for no reason I'm not going to have any reaction to this at all, because it's their creativity and they are always right."

Then don't spend the money.  Vote with your wallet.   And I guarantee you - I mean, I literally guarantee you - you will see two things happen:   one group of bands will noticeably turn down and tailor their released output for the audience that is spending the money on their work, and a second group of bands (and I believe with all my heart that Metallica will be here) will continue to make challenging records that sound like they want them to because that is what they do (see: Lulu).   

Quote
Which brings me to a question that comes up in a lot of these discussions, and for which I've never seen a straight answer: If the loudness war seriously does not bother you at all in any way, great for you. But, clearly, it does bother a lot of people. This isn't ten cranky audiophiles, this is in no small part people who knew next to nothing about audio until they found that the new Dream Theater album gave them a headache. Those of us who it annoys are asking artists and producers and record companies to stop doing it, because it reduces the quality of their product. None of us are asking anyone who is not affected by the loudness war to join in. But why do those of you who do not care what the dynamic range of something is actively try to oppose us? We're saying "this makes the music a chore for us. There is no reason for them to do this. This should be fixed." If the music industry adopted our changes, everyone would be affected in one of two ways: 1) Positively or 2) Not at all. No one would be harmed by the changes we want made being made. There is no downside. So why do some of you oppose us so vehemently?

I have answered this question repeatedly, but I think the underlying assumptions are different enough that it negates what I'm saying.  I don't oppose your opinion, I oppose you telling artists what to do.   I HATE that.  I don't give a rat's ass what any FAN thinks, I want to know what the ARTIST thinks.    This is in part why Ritchie Blackmore is by far my favorite musician of all time.  Do I love the renaissance stuff? Beyond Candace being hot, no, I would MUCH rather see RB on one knee at the front of stage left ripping off a kick ass electric solo in "Highway Star".  Or melting my eardrums on a super-charged "Burn".    Hell, I'd even settle for a raucous "All Night Long".  But his muse is somewhere stuck in the 1500's and that's what we get.  And I wouldn't DREAM of having it any other way, because at least I know it's PURE.    I pay my artists to give me their take on things, not the take of the loudest members of the audience as filtered through them.  Isn't that what we castigate pop music for?  Isn't that the knock on the Justin Beibers of the world? Taking the easy, fan-favorite way out?   I am not exaggerating when I say this:   I think if DT or Rush or Metallica redid their albums based on the way you and yours want it, as opposed to the way THEY want it, they are now no better than Justin Beiber.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on February 05, 2015, 08:58:20 AM
We just want it to stop sounding like shit
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlackInk on February 05, 2015, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: Lucien on February 05, 2015, 08:58:20 AM
We just want it to stop sounding like shit

Yeah, this about sums it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 05, 2015, 09:32:36 AM
So I guess what this all boils down to is whether DT wanted the last 2 albums to sound like they did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 09:52:47 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
It's not just you, there are others echoing the same point, but the fact is, no matter how you slice it, it is STILL just your opinion.  Even calling on a certain standard to be your measuring stick makes it YOUR opinion.

Okay? My opinion is that it's bad to have shit sound quality. In this case my opinion is right essentially by the definitions of "bad" and "quality."

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
At the end of the day, absent a comment from JP (or other rep from the band) saying "Wow, that fucker is just too loud, and the clipping is WTF", there is no other assumption that can be made besides "he/they wanted it this way".   Whether it makes sense or not, whether you would do it or not, or whether it is "pleasing" or not is irrelevant.   Yoko Ono has made a lucrative career out of making sounds - musical sounds - that are patently unpleasing to the ear.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between the music itself and the production. I really don't care what Yoko does, but DT is not intending to make music that is unpleasant to hear (most of the time). That is obvious. It's just the production that is unpleasant. It's not like JP is sitting there in the studio saying "eh, let's fuck it up so none of 'em can hear it right." It is clear that his intent is to make something that is pleasant to hear, but whoever is brickwalling it is causing the opposite effect to happen.

And it is not at all irrelevant whether it is pleasant to the ear. Because if it's not pleasant I'm not going to listen to it, because I am not a masochist. And if it would ordinarily be pleasant but is made unpleasant for no good reason, I'm going to be pissed about that (whereas if Yoko makes something intentionally unpleasant I don't care because I'm not going to listen to that anyway).

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
Can you please show me where we all - I mean every single listener to music on the planet - have agreed to this universal standard of what "good audio quality" is?   Haha, I'm trying to be funny, not a dick, but hopefully you'll get the point.

Not everyone has to agree to something for it to be true. Death Magnetic has objectively awful sound quality. It distorts, it is clipped all to hell, it has no dynamic range. Even if Lars is all "eyyyyyy it sounds great on my car radio" that does not mean that we say "oh, someone disagreed so now we have no way of knowing if it's truly good or not." It's still objectively bad sound quality, even if Lars thinks otherwise.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
That is NOT OBJECTIVE.  You can have your own opinions, but you CANNOT have your own facts.  Make whatever case you want as to why a band SHOULD do things your way, but you cannot say that there is a right or wrong.

I really cannot believe that I'm spending time arguing about this. Honestly, this is just a weird and incorrect thing to say. There are facts in this world. I know that some people want to believe that everything is a subjective social construct so that they never have to be wrong and never have to really take a stand on anything, but there are facts in this world. When we talk about sound quality, we're talking about the ability to hear and understand sounds well on a particular release. A CD where the sound is distorted from its originally recorded version, that is brickwalled all to hell causing listener fatigue from the monotony of the same volume with no dynamics is of poor quality. It is objectively of poor quality. Just like how a blurry video is objectively of poor quality as compared to one that is in HD. It is not "eyyyy maybe you prefer HD but that's just your OPINION man.... HD is no better or worse than this video I shot on my Motorola RAZR."

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
As a basic example, who said that an album HAS to be "easy" to listen to?   Where is that been decreed?

It doesn't have to be, but if it's truly grating then it's a shit album, in my opinion. And if it's an album that intends to be easy to listen to, but has a subtle production quality that makes it harder to listen to, then the production is very clearly contradicting the intent of the album and therefore the production is objectively bad for that album. I suppose if you were making an album of the noises of silverware being dropped in garbage disposals and the screeching of nails on a chalkboard (God knows why, but let's say you were), then you would probably want the album to be brickwalled and fuzzy as all hell just to perfect the awfulness of it all, and in that case the shitty brickwalled production would be the perfect choice. But 99% of albums are trying to be enjoyable to listen to, and for those albums, clear, dynamic production is objectively right.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
And Metallica is a great example, because - and this is my opinion, only - I think people are being VERY hypocritical when talking about Death Magnetic as being "horribly" produced, and citing all the irrelevant facts about their "money" and "influence".

Don't care about money or influence myself. It's just horribly produced. Unlistenably bad.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
If you REALLY look closely at their catalogue, they have never taken the "easy" way on any level, and the sound of their records is but one aspect of it.  But I have absolutely not one doubt that Lars and James intended that record to sound exactly as it does.   PURELY artistic intent.

You are suggesting that Lars and James took the time to write a selection of moderately complex, dynamic songs with the goal in mind of making them hard to comprehend and obliterating all dynamics. That's what you're suggesting.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
...AJFA is an incredibly difficult album to digest; incredibly (for them) long songs, odd mix with little to no bass (thus overemphasizing the mid- and treble-registers).    SKoMonster; incredibly difficult album to digest; little in the way of melody to latch on to, almost no guitar playing in the traditional sense of the "rock solo"... Lulu; incredibly difficult album to digest; no lyrical touchstones to readily latch on to, odd (as in non-traditional) performances, etc.   I could go on.

You don't have to convince me that Metallica has made some shit albums in their day. DM is not one of them, production excepted. Neither is Justice, which is poorly produced, though the long songs have really nothing to do with that.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
Then don't spend the money.  Vote with your wallet.   And I guarantee you - I mean, I literally guarantee you - you will see two things happen:   one group of bands will noticeably turn down and tailor their released output for the audience that is spending the money on their work, and a second group of bands (and I believe with all my heart that Metallica will be here) will continue to make challenging records that sound like they want them to because that is what they do (see: Lulu).

Do you really understand what the loudness war is? The loudness war is not "making challenging records." It is literally just ruining good records by making them sound bad. The production of Death Magnetic is not a "challenge for the listener," it's seriously just bad. It's not a movie with a complex plot, it's a movie shot on a Motorola RAZR with coffee spilled on the film before it's shown in the theater. All for no good reason.

Of course, artists like Steven Wilson really care about sound quality. They take effort to make sure that the production on their albums sounds pristine and does not hit the listener over the head with brickwalling.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
I don't oppose your opinion, I oppose you telling artists what to do.   I HATE that.

I really don't get this. I'm not saying "John Petrucci, you must write an epic about Santa Claus that includes reindeer noises and a 13 minute guitar solo." I'm saying "John Petrucci, please for God's sake make a CD that has good sound quality." That's akin to me writing a letter to Steven Spielberg and saying "please shoot your next movie with really good cameras." If you really hate people asking that albums don't get ruined for them... I don't even know what to say. I would say that's touchiness to a fault that almost crosses over into spite for listeners with sensitive ears.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
I don't give a rat's ass what any FAN thinks

Which is why you took the time to write a lengthy post expressing your disapproval of what the fans think.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
I want to know what the ARTIST thinks.    This is in part why Ritchie Blackmore is by far my favorite musician of all time.  Do I love the renaissance stuff? Beyond Candace being hot, no, I would MUCH rather see RB on one knee at the front of stage left ripping off a kick ass electric solo in "Highway Star".  Or melting my eardrums on a super-charged "Burn".    Hell, I'd even settle for a raucous "All Night Long".  But his muse is somewhere stuck in the 1500's and that's what we get.  And I wouldn't DREAM of having it any other way, because at least I know it's PURE.    I pay my artists to give me their take on things, not the take of the loudest members of the audience as filtered through them.

Okay, again, this is musical style and not production. I'm not telling artists what kind of albums to make, I'm just telling them to make the albums have some slight modicum of sound quality.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
Isn't that what we castigate pop music for?

Speak for yourself; I like pop music.

Quote from: Stadler on February 05, 2015, 08:52:17 AM
Taking the easy, fan-favorite way out?   I am not exaggerating when I say this:   I think if DT or Rush or Metallica redid their albums based on the way you and yours want it, as opposed to the way THEY want it, they are now no better than Justin Beiber.

You heard it here first folks. If DT makes the next album have decent sound quality, they'll have sold out. And be no better than 20 year old Canadian kids whose name no one can spell correctly. I before e except after c.


Quote from: Lucien on February 05, 2015, 08:58:20 AM
We just want it to stop sounding like shit

Yup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 05, 2015, 10:27:18 AM
^Yeah, Stadler, I don't even understand what you are arguing.^

You seem to be arguing about the musical content, but that's not what anyone here is talking about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 05, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 05, 2015, 10:36:59 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 05, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice. :lol
Yeah, but I left out a lot of detail.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 05, 2015, 10:39:24 AM
I know.  I just for the life of me respond in a 10 page retort, (it felt like it) to much to type.  I really should get Dragon Speech software.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 05, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice. :lol

Heh, yeah, I know I have no sense of restraint in these things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 05, 2015, 11:40:41 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 05, 2015, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 05, 2015, 10:35:47 AM
Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice. :lol

Heh, yeah, I know I have no sense of restraint in these things.

and I'm to lazy to type that all out. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 04, 2015, 08:17:55 PM
And there's no good listening volume for an overcompressed album. If you turn it down, it's still a wall of sound, but it somehow sounds too loud and too soft at the same time, and you can't make out anything.

This, totally. There is a difference between volume and loudness (https://www.accessories4less.com/mas_assets/cache/image/1/6/b/d/5821.Jpg).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 02:42:15 PM
I've never really used an amplifier like that; is the "Loudness" knob actually a way of reducing dynamic range on the system, or is it something else (you can probably tell I know very little about audio)?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 02:46:53 PM
Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: GasparXR on February 05, 2015, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 02:46:53 PM
Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.

That's interesting. I've seen stuff like that on older speaker systems from the 70s/80s, but very rarely on newer ones since they became simplified for consumers, is that a new one or an oldie?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 02:54:16 PM
It looks exactly like the one I had in the 90s. I'm assuming it's old.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 03:41:23 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 02:46:53 PM
Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.

Wow. That's... Quite strange.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
Keep in mind that bands retrospectively admit issues in their material all the time. When Sanctuary just released their first album in two decades, almost every interview with them saw them mention how awful the production on their two earlier albums were and how much better this one is (as an aside, if DT12 sounded like that album, it would have been much better off). Even with DT, there's the FII issues, there's the Prater issues, there's Petrucci calling WDADU amateurish, etc. Hell, there's even the infamous moment where JM calls out the move-into-the-studio-and-write stuff on the WDADRU commentary. Obviously they're not going to take shots at the last album, because it's their newest product and they're still trying to sell it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in a few years, some interviewer could wring an admission from JP that DT isn't exactly their best-sounding record. Heck, MM has already hinted at this, though not in a particularly negative spin.

Again, if it turned out that JP really did consciously decide every thing and couldn't possibly be more satisfied (as well as the rest of the band), then sure, that's his artistic integrity and you have to respect it, etc. But without that affirmation, it's fair game. If you go to a DT show with a friend, and James sings a bunch of notes flat, and your friend turns to you and goes "Man, James' performance really hurt my enjoyment of the show," you don't go "Hey, that's the way he means to sing it!" Of course he wants to sing the notes on pitch, but sometimes he doesn't fully get where he wants to go. It is entirely possible that the production of the newest album(s) suffered a similar issue (granted, not a great analogy, because you have time to revise production as opposed to one chance to get a note at a show, but it's the same idea).

I have no doubt that some of it is Petrucci's preference, mind you. I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12. That much can't be questioned. But the subtle nuances and errors of the production beyond that? I'd be willing to bet that if you took another metal band's album to JP, and you played him a loud but well-produced version of it and a Death Magnetic-type produced version of it, he'd prefer the first one. Much like James hitting many notes at a show but missing a few, JP could well have gotten into the general range of production he wanted but may not have found a way to better it further, even if he would have liked to.

So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 05:19:38 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12.

Have you heard recent albums by Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree? Or the newest remixes of a few classic prog releases such as Close to the Edge? Or either of the two most recent Opeth albums? Steven Wilson is guy who mixed these things and takes a pretty much opposite philosophy to the modern brickwalling style. One of the best producers out there today.

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between a hot master and a brickwalled one. Falling Into Infinity and Metallica's Black Album are fairly hot masters, but both sound pretty good. Systematic Chaos and Death Magnetic are brickwalled and sound bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 05, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
Yeah...still don't hear it.  The album sounds great to me.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 05, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
*snip*

At the same time, I think it's fair to say that maybe even JP would admit he never found his desired sound. Prater? One album and done. Shirley? They tried to move on from him after one, brought him back somewhat reluctantly, but then let him go again. Northfield? Again, just on a handful of albums. And DT12 is a shuffled cast, too. It's not unusual for bands to change producers/mixers/engineers every album, but DT have done it so often that you have to wonder whether they're still not trying to find the right combination.  I will be extremely surprised if Chycki or whoever else is involved again for DT13.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:55:57 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 05, 2015, 05:19:38 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12.

Have you heard recent albums by Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree? Or the newest remixes of a few classic prog releases such as Close to the Edge? Or either of the two most recent Opeth albums? Steven Wilson is guy who mixed these things and takes a pretty much opposite philosophy to the modern brickwalling style. One of the best producers out there today.

I haven't, because none of those artists, from what I know, would stylistically appeal to me. But my premise was that the forum is right and that he's good.

Quote from: 425 on February 05, 2015, 05:19:38 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between a hot master and a brickwalled one. Falling Into Infinity and Metallica's Black Album are fairly hot masters, but both sound pretty good. Systematic Chaos and Death Magnetic are brickwalled and sound bad.

Right, which is why I said we can definitely say JP likes hot masters but we can't say whether he likes brickwalled ones. Incidentally, I think Systematic Chaos sounds great. The Dream Theater albums I think sound bad are When Dream And Day Unite, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and Dream Theater. My taste for SC probably is more due to me liking the mix than the master, though, I'd assume.

Quote from: Skeever on February 05, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 05:02:25 PM
*snip*

At the same time, I think it's fair to say that maybe even JP would admit he never found his desired sound. Prater? One album and done. Shirley? They tried to move on from him after one, brought him back somewhat reluctantly, but then let him go again. Northfield? Again, just on a handful of albums. And DT12 is a shuffled cast, too. It's not unusual for bands to change producers/mixers/engineers every album, but DT have done it so often that you have to wonder whether they're still not trying to find the right combination.  I will be extremely surprised if Chycki or whoever else is involved again for DT13.



I actually wouldn't be, but that's more based off James' ties to Chycki than anything substantive. I mean, JP's the type who's usually going to spin things positively in interviews, so it's hard to know where he is with that. If Chycki were in for DT13, would we know by know? When would we? I guess I was assuming he was back, but now that you mention it that's more than a bit presumptuous on my part. If he isn't back, then maybe that's a further sign that indeed, John Petrucci does not think Dream Theater is the most incredibly mastered album anyone has ever concocted.

Other than that, it seems we're on the same page.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 06:04:04 PM
One underappreciated aspect in this is also, I think DT's songwriting has become increasingly "sonically dense". There is almost no point in time where there isn't drums, bass, doubled guitars, and JR's gnarly pig behind it.
If you got that kind of sonic density, compressing it so much is like cranking up the contrast on a Pollock painting: it becomes overwhelming, and just becomes this noise of colors.
So, I think DT *could* have an albums with that hotness and still have it sound good, but they would have to orchestrate then more by having instruments be quiet more often.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on February 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qvc9_GDoWI4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 06:56:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 05, 2015, 06:04:04 PM
One underappreciated aspect in this is also, I think DT's songwriting has become increasingly "sonically dense". There is almost no point in time where there isn't drums, bass, doubled guitars, and JR's gnarly pig behind it.
If you got that kind of sonic density, compressing it so much is like cranking up the contrast on a Pollock painting: it becomes overwhelming, and just becomes this noise of colors.
So, I think DT *could* have an albums with that hotness and still have it sound good, but they would have to orchestrate then more by having instruments be quiet more often.

My vote goes to the pig.

Also, because I watched the Metallica GH vs. DM vid someone posted earlier in the thread, this popped up in my YT suggestions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPu0DKyGgZI Pretty damn funny.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2015, 08:15:59 PM
To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 05, 2015, 08:24:06 PM
:clap:

Blob just made a spot-on post with the brevity that I clearly lack.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 05, 2015, 08:31:44 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 05, 2015, 08:24:06 PM
:clap:

Blob just made a spot-on post with the brevity that I clearly lack.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 01:45:39 AM
I find it hilarious when Metallica sheep are like : "  :metal AJFA sounds perfect the way it is "

Right - so given the choice between the way it sounds now and having a full sound with loud bass like The Black Album - you'd choose the bass less thin sound of current AJFA ?

How many times have you read : " Man - Master Of Puppets is a great album - but what it really needs is less bass ".  :biggrin:

I also find it funny when they say things like : " Every Metallica album is 10/10. Even St. Anger because it's still METALLICA  :metal :metal "


 :rollin

I  :heart Green Day but even I can rank their albums objectively and criticise certain songs I don't like.



The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 06, 2015, 04:53:57 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 01:45:39 AM
The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.
lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 06, 2015, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2015, 08:15:59 PM
To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong. :lol

And since I contributed a lot to that "huge wall of stuff from way back", I think you're way UNDER thinking this.    So we're even.

That "they weren't even there" doesn't mean they didn't "hear it and sign off on it".   How many times have you read stories about musicians "going down to the pub" while the engineer/producer mixed the material, and they came back and were either blown away or dumbfounded?  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the mix.  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the production (hell, just read "Lifting Shadows" to get a full dose of that).  So why the apparent reluctance to criticize the mastering engineers?    Why assume that the artist has total control for 99% of the process then mysteriously abdicates all responsibility at the very end?  That's like Julian Edelman running a kickoff all the way back to the other team's one yard line and placing the ball on the turf.  Or handing it to someone else.   It defies logic.   Do you HONESTLY think control freaks like Hetfield and Ulrich, or Simmons, or Harris*, or Portnoy, or Tyler just willingly do 99% of the work and say "Fuck it!" for the final step? 

(And I find the whole "the musicians themselves have bad ears but everyone around them and all the fans that agree with you don't" argument to be comical almost to the point of satire.  That is a RIDICULOUS argument unsupported by any facts.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2015, 06:50:02 AM
I don't think it's JP's ears. I think it's his lack of perspective at the end of several months of working on the material. That's especially why having a separate mastering person is good, because they come in without any preconceptions about the album, and will spot immediate issues.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2015, 07:36:04 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 06, 2015, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2015, 08:15:59 PM
To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong. :lol

And since I contributed a lot to that "huge wall of stuff from way back", I think you're way UNDER thinking this.    So we're even.

That "they weren't even there" doesn't mean they didn't "hear it and sign off on it".   How many times have you read stories about musicians "going down to the pub" while the engineer/producer mixed the material, and they came back and were either blown away or dumbfounded?  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the mix.  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the production (hell, just read "Lifting Shadows" to get a full dose of that).  So why the apparent reluctance to criticize the mastering engineers?    Why assume that the artist has total control for 99% of the process then mysteriously abdicates all responsibility at the very end?  That's like Julian Edelman running a kickoff all the way back to the other team's one yard line and placing the ball on the turf.  Or handing it to someone else.   It defies logic.   Do you HONESTLY think control freaks like Hetfield and Ulrich, or Simmons, or Harris*, or Portnoy, or Tyler just willingly do 99% of the work and say "Fuck it!" for the final step? 

(And I find the whole "the musicians themselves have bad ears but everyone around them and all the fans that agree with you don't" argument to be comical almost to the point of satire.  That is a RIDICULOUS argument unsupported by any facts.)

It's also a ridiculous argument unsupported by anything I actually said.  :chill My hyperbole senses are tingling!

Much like the average person, a lot of musicians don't know the nerdy technical stuff. They know their own instruments well, but they're not all audiophiles with valid input to make on every other sonic aspect. I'm not saying they're clueless, but unless they're also experienced in that role (like Steven Wilson for example), then their opinion isn't necessarily worth more than anyone else's.

More importantly, most musicians simply don't have complete input on every stage, when you've also got the rest of the band each with their own opinions, along with the engineer/producer/record label all having more input on the matter. A lot of cooks in the kitchen, and they won't all agree, and they won't all get their way.

When it comes to mastering, the record label gets final say on what gets released, and mastering is where record labels most like to use/abuse that right. There's a reason albums are compressed so much these days, and it has absolutely nothing to do with a band's artistic freedom. It has to do with record labels catering to the lowest common denominator of consumers and devices, and playing on known human psychology pertaining to audio perception to maximize album sales. That's the reality of the music business.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on February 06, 2015, 09:02:02 AM
The funny thing is when the max-compression trend started, I thought it was just age affecting my hearing.  Not being able to hear "the room" or "air" of recordings like I used to.  Then you throw on an older recording.  It sounds less dynamic at first, but that's just because it is not as hot.  You turn your volume up and viola.  Nice volume levels AND DYNAMICS.

All of the A:B youtube videos and people complaining about it is a good thing.  Producer X does it because he thinks that is just what everybody wants.  The backlash lets them know we really don't want it.

Hopefully there isn't an overreaction where we throw out all the studio tools.  Kind of like when shredders were talking about "I just need a guitar, an amp and the blues."  Everything has its place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: Skeever on February 06, 2015, 04:53:57 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 01:45:39 AM
The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.
lol

I meant in a St Anger what the fuck were they thinking sounds like complete arse kind of way.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on February 06, 2015, 09:58:37 AM
They should bring in Rob Cavallo to produce. I am actually kinda serious. lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on February 06, 2015, 10:04:53 AM
Record labels sometimes force bands to compress the f*ck out of their albums, thinking they can sell more records that way, but the fact that Roadrunner has released very dynamically mastered albums by Porcupine Tree and Opeth that have charted and sold pretty well makes me believe DT could also put out an album that isn't brickwalled to death if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 10:40:42 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on February 06, 2015, 09:58:37 AM
They should bring in Rob Cavallo to produce. I am actually kinda serious. lol

Rob's Green Day albums are easily their best sounding.  Butch Vig distorted 21st Century Breakdown. it's not Death Magnetic bad but it's not far off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 06, 2015, 10:48:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2015, 07:36:04 AM
It's also a ridiculous argument unsupported by anything I actually said.  :chill My hyperbole senses are tingling!

Much like the average person, a lot of musicians don't know the nerdy technical stuff. They know their own instruments well, but they're not all audiophiles with valid input to make on every other sonic aspect. I'm not saying they're clueless, but unless they're also experienced in that role (like Steven Wilson for example), then their opinion isn't necessarily worth more than anyone else's.

More importantly, most musicians simply don't have complete input on every stage, when you've also got the rest of the band each with their own opinions, along with the engineer/producer/record label all having more input on the matter. A lot of cooks in the kitchen, and they won't all agree, and they won't all get their way.

When it comes to mastering, the record label gets final say on what gets released, and mastering is where record labels most like to use/abuse that right. There's a reason albums are compressed so much these days, and it has absolutely nothing to do with a band's artistic freedom. It has to do with record labels catering to the lowest common denominator of consumers and devices, and playing on known human psychology pertaining to audio perception to maximize album sales. That's the reality of the music business.

This, plus in some cases the musicians genuinely can't hear the compression problem. Some people honestly can't. And I somewhat doubt that, after 30+ years of playing drums in Metallica, Lars Ulrich has the best hearing around.


Quote from: Calvin6s on February 06, 2015, 09:02:02 AM
The funny thing is when the max-compression trend started, I thought it was just age affecting my hearing.  Not being able to hear "the room" or "air" of recordings like I used to.  Then you throw on an older recording.  It sounds less dynamic at first, but that's just because it is not as hot.  You turn your volume up and viola.  Nice volume levels AND DYNAMICS.

Testimony like this is why I find it hard to believe that there are still people who dismiss the issue of the loudness war entirely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 06, 2015, 12:51:10 PM
My guess is that when it comes to musicians evaluating how their music sounds, mastering is way down the list of concerns. I imagine Petrucci (or anyone else) is going to be far more focused on the tone of the instruments and the relative volume of each in sections (i.e. whether a guitar solo is mixed loud enough, whether the vocals cut through, etc.). It's easy to imagine a producer who a) doesn't deal with masters for a living and b) is so close to the product, being in the band, signing off on anything that represents the general instrument tones and relative emphasis of parts that he/the band wants without much regard to the auxiliary sound issues. Given the sonic density of DT music, the path of least resistance is the brickwalling. And there you have it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
Quote from: Implode on February 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qvc9_GDoWI4/maxresdefault.jpg)


 :lol haha


Fuck You Rick Berman ! You ruined this too ?!


Wait that ain't Rick Berman.....What is it with Ricks ?!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2015, 03:09:30 PM
Dunno, but this is kinda on-topic:
https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 06, 2015, 03:18:46 PM
And Rick James ruined his career.  Man Rick's do suck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on February 06, 2015, 05:25:14 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
Quote from: Implode on February 05, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qvc9_GDoWI4/maxresdefault.jpg


 :lol haha


Fuck You Rick Berman ! You ruined this too ?!


Wait that ain't Rick Berman.....What is it with Ricks ?!

I'm glad someone got that. It was impossible not to think of that after Rumbys post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2015, 04:31:21 AM
Someone made me sit down and watch Red Letter Media's extensive Jack And Jill review and by the end I was hooked on their stuff.

From the running time I thought it would be as annoying and one sided as Nostalgia Critic but it's just two guys who love movies talking about how and why

Jack & Jill is so awful. I like how - if a movie is terrible - they at least try to point out any positives too. They're not just two meatheads sitting there swearing

constantly and going this film sucks LOL like most people on Youtube.

And yeah The Phantom Menace review is awesome. I'd watch it more often if it wasn't quite so long - even though i've watched everything they've done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on February 09, 2015, 12:37:59 AM
I spent a few hours on Youtube this weekend, watching songs from Score and the latest live release, the Boston Opera or whatever. Now I'm even more certain of Score being the greatest thing DT has ever released. They'll never top that one.

Best song: Another Won (why don't they write songs like that any more?)

Oh, and watching MP behind the kit made me feel so nostalgic. The stage presence of that guy... he totally played his heart out that night. I mean, just look at the grin on his face when the band joins in on The Root of All Evil.

Maybe this isn't so controversial, but at least it is opinions!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on February 09, 2015, 03:44:55 AM
So i revisited BC&SL, it's still one of the most mediocre albums for me, but it has some great moments, and ANTR is still a great song besides some wanking and unneeded sections.

On the other hand, DT12 is probably the most bland DT album, it still leaves me emotionless and many times i find it boring and just an album than "needed to be released on track". Of course the production plays a big role, but besides TEI, TLG and parts of BTV and IT, i think it's a very bland album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: puppyonacid on February 09, 2015, 04:04:39 AM
Spooky! I was going to post something similar!

I believe BC&SL to be more indicative of DTs sound than DT12. In fact, I think BC&SL with all its faults is a better album. The CD copy of DT12 that I have has been sat in the glove box of my girlfrienfds car for almost a year. I haven't missed it.

I dunno about DT these days. It just feels like there's no friction - it's all too good. It's hard to explain but with Mangini coming in (and I think he's amazing), it just feels like it's all gone a bit safe. It's weird in that sense because you'd think with someone like Mangini in the band they'd be able to explore even further. It seems that the opposite has happened and it's gone a bit bland.

I kind of finding myself missing Portnoy more. I really hope they start pushing the envelope again on the next album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on February 09, 2015, 04:12:12 AM
Quote from: puppyonacid on February 09, 2015, 04:04:39 AM

I dunno about DT these days. It just feels like there's no friction - it's all too good. It's hard to explain but with Mangini coming in (and I think he's amazing), it just feels like it's all gone a bit safe. It's weird in that sense because you'd think with someone like Mangini in the band they'd be able to explore even further. It seems that the opposite has happened and it's gone a bit bland.


Can't say i disagree much. I still expect DT to try something different and more adventurous, and no, a string section in a song is not pushing the boundaries. I feel that just like JR, MM's potential is not utilized because of this "must sound like DT" mindset that seems to be going on in the band these days. I want them to get crazy, they are amazing players with incredible versatility, and while i'm sure they don't produce music that is not to their liking, i still feel that the band looks at the writing of a new album as a job with predefined qualities, than straight artistic expression and exploration.

Still, my chat with Mike made me hopeful that we'll get a more refreshing album this time, he really seems to want to contribute and be more involved, and he has plenty of ideas, so maybe we'll get a little less "clinic" DT this time around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 22, 2015, 02:20:38 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
It's a boring cover of a boring song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 22, 2015, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
It's also the best version of that song by anyone. With Lande as close second.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:34:15 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 22, 2015, 02:20:38 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
It's a boring cover of a boring song.
:TAC:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 22, 2015, 02:39:46 PM
 :lol
I won't be intimidated with that! It might make me a little queasy but...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
I don't know, man.  I listened to some Winger last week.  They are a pretty good band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 22, 2015, 02:45:40 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
I don't know
Correct! ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/motivation/keeptalking.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 22, 2015, 02:59:46 PM
 :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 22, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
Haven't agreed much with you lately hef, but I do regarding this statement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 22, 2015, 06:33:43 PM
:lol  Honestly, when was the last time you agreed with anybody, Scotty?  Seems like you only come here lately to be contrarian and pick fights.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 22, 2015, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 22, 2015, 06:33:43 PM
:lol  Honestly, when was the last time you agreed with anybody, Scotty?  Seems like you only come here lately to be contrarian and pick fights.
Seriously? I may not agree with the masses on this board regarding all things DT, especially when things could be better/different than how they've developed, but I take offense at the statement that I'm only here to be a contrarian and pick fights.

I looked at the latest posts I've made and I fail to see how I fit in to that description. Besides the aforementioned wishes (which I believe I'm free to wish for, yes?) a lot of the DT stuff I post is to set things straight when an individual states something that isn't true (the point made about finishing one song in time for a tour and finishing the rest of the album later, Minnemann being the first drummer DT asked to join, the medley/IF coupling played in 95, the sources for Chaos in Motion, etc) never mind my posts in other threads about the Rush tour, Rush in general, The Cure and other posts. Where have I been "contrarian" and here just to "pick fights"?

Not cool.  :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on May 22, 2015, 07:46:29 PM
DT's Perfect Strangers is definitely *not* better than the original.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 22, 2015, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.

While we're at it, may I say that I think that DT's version of Hey You is superior to the original by Pink Floyd?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on May 22, 2015, 10:07:28 PM
DTs version of Perfect Strangers IS the original version to me in the sense that I didn't know about it until DT. So it's left a more lasting impression than the Deep Purple version. Infact as it goes DT got me into Deep Purple on general so that was cool.

Oh and Scotty, I wouldn't worry about it much. Myself and probably others find a lot of your insights and perspectives quite interesting. I wouldn't have said it comes off as confrontational, but sometimes certain statements carry extra meaning that gets interpreted in ways that may or may not have been intended. This happens to me all the time if I play mutual advocate in an attempt to understand two sides of something that appears to be in conflict. *shrug* ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 22, 2015, 10:22:06 PM
Scotty's DT knowledge is enormous, although I can see how one might be a tad put off by the constant fact checking.  I know it's "setting the record straight," but it can take the fun out of posting for some if you are thinking, "Oh jeez, I had better have my facts straight or someone will always be by to correct me."  It's like the fact checking equivalent of a grammar nazi.  And I mean that in a nice way, Scotty. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on May 22, 2015, 11:01:37 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 22, 2015, 06:33:43 PM
:lol  Honestly, when was the last time you agreed with anybody, Scotty?  Seems like you only come here lately to be contrarian and pick fights.

Ya know if this was a year ago, I may have been inclined to agree with you.  But in my most recent interaction with Scotty, he agreed with me about something.  Of course, I may be remembering that wrong or it may have been a dream but if it was real, it was momentous. 



I am joking for the most part.  I've never felt Scotty was that oppositional. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 04:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 22, 2015, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.

While we're at it, may I say that I think that DT's version of Hey You is superior to the original by Pink Floyd?
You may say it, but I won't agree with it.

But it's pretty good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on May 23, 2015, 05:15:19 AM
Not my controversial opinion, but I know a guy that has the weirdest opinion on DT's albums that I have ever encountered.

WDADU, IaW: Awesome
Awake through SDOIT: Shit
TOT through DT12: Awesome

I mean, what is up with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 05:23:14 AM
That is weird.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 22, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
Haven't agreed much with you lately hef, but I do regarding this statement.
This is probably the strangest opinion I've ever read in this thread and a bunch of people already agree with it. ??? How exactly is it better? DT's version of Perfect Strangers bleeds miserably to death in the first few seconds when Derek's plastic toy organ makes its entrance. It sounds like a joke compared to Jon's mighty Hammond sound. It whistles through the whole song with that high pitched plastic sound, giving it a cheap cover quality. Which it is, really. The guitar sound is equally thin. I don't see how anyone who cares about sound quality and good sounding instruments could prefer the DT version. Not to mention how DT fails to capture the sinister, serious mood of the original. That wanky solo at the end and LaBrie screaming annoyingly all the way through totally undermines the atmosphere.

I'm glad that my current favorite band payed homage to the favorite band of my adolescence, but Purple is a band rooted in blues, who rely on feeling, improvisation and spontaneity, and man, oh man, DT, with their style and mentality, just can't do them justice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 23, 2015, 08:49:49 AM
I enjoy DT's cover of Perfect Strangers, but I mostly agree with that. 

However, this is a fairly common phenomenon.  Fans often think covers done by one of their favorite bands are better than the originals.  I've even seen a few DT fans say that prefer their rendition of Dark Side of the Moon, which is pretty hilarious, but it just strengthens what I just said.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on May 23, 2015, 09:33:26 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 22, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.
Haven't agreed much with you lately hef, but I do regarding this statement.
This is probably the strangest opinion I've ever read in this thread and a bunch of people already agree with it. ??? How exactly is it better? DT's version of Perfect Strangers bleeds miserably to death in the first few seconds when Derek's plastic toy organ makes its entrance. It sounds like a joke compared to Jon's mighty Hammond sound. It whistles through the whole song with that high pitched plastic sound, giving it a cheap cover quality. Which it is, really. The guitar sound is equally thin. I don't see how anyone who cares about sound quality and good sounding instruments could prefer the DT version. Not to mention how DT fails to capture the sinister, serious mood of the original. That wanky solo at the end and LaBrie screaming annoyingly all the way through totally undermines the atmosphere.

I'm glad that my current favorite band payed homage to the favorite band of my adolescence, but Purple is a band rooted in blues, who rely on feeling, improvisation and spontaneity, and man, oh man, DT, with their style and mentality, just can't do them justice.

I agree with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 10:07:35 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 08:43:23 AM
This is probably the strangest opinion I've ever read in this thread
Really?  In THIS thread?

Quote from: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 08:43:23 AM
How exactly is it better? DT's version of Perfect Strangers bleeds miserably to death in the first few seconds when Derek's plastic toy organ makes its entrance. It sounds like a joke compared to Jon's mighty Hammond sound. It whistles through the whole song with that high pitched plastic sound, giving it a cheap cover quality. Which it is, really. The guitar sound is equally thin. I don't see how anyone who cares about sound quality and good sounding instruments could prefer the DT version. Not to mention how DT fails to capture the sinister, serious mood of the original. That wanky solo at the end and LaBrie screaming annoyingly all the way through totally undermines the atmosphere.

(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/lightenupfrancis_zps2xpheske.gif)

It's a crappy live recording, of course the audio quality won't be the same as Deep Purple's studio recording.  But it's not awful, it's fine.  And while John Lord's keyboard sound is wonderful, there's nothing wrong with Sherinian's.

Yes, the original is serious.  It's too serious.  It feels like it is plodding.  I prefer DT's tempo.

FFS, I am not a large fan of Deep Purple, and I like DT's version better.  This is the Controversial Opinion thread.  By definition, I don't expect it to be:

A) widely held (then it wouldn't be controversial)
B) fact (then it wouldn't be an opinion)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 23, 2015, 10:26:56 AM
DT + Bruce covering Perfect Strangers :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 10:07:35 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on May 23, 2015, 08:43:23 AM
This is probably the strangest opinion I've ever read in this thread
Really?  In THIS thread?
Well, this one puzzled me the most, especially because of the subsequent comments that agreed with it. In most other cases regarding this thread, even when I strongly disagree with an opinion, I can usually see where the poster is coming from. But it's hard to wrap my head around someone (let alone many) preferring a mediocre DT cover to a legendary classic, so I inquired further while voicing my own point of view. No big deal.
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 10:07:35 AM
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/lightenupfrancis_zps2xpheske.gif)
FFS, I am not a large fan of Deep Purple, and I like DT's version better.  This is the Controversial Opinion thread.  By definition, I don't expect it to be:

A) widely held (then it wouldn't be controversial)
B) fact (then it wouldn't be an opinion)
I'm perfectly 'lightened up', maybe you read my post in more of an aggressive tone, which wasn't intended on my part, probably that's why you felt the CAPS, the cursing and pulling a captain obvious at the end was warranted. It wasn't. And it's John Lord. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 23, 2015, 10:43:40 AM
What is mediocre about DT's cover? It improves upon every aspect of the sound and makes it sound great as opposed to just being OK for its time. And LaBrie owns it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CharlesPL on May 23, 2015, 11:02:43 AM
Majesty Demos >>> ToT >>>>>>>>> BC&SL>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 23, 2015, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: CharlesPL on May 23, 2015, 11:02:43 AM
Majesty Demos >>> ToT >>>>>>>>> BC&SL>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC :)


lolwut
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 23, 2015, 11:16:27 AM
Random number generator fed through general MIDI + pitch corrected dog barks >>>>>>>>>> Majesty demos
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on May 23, 2015, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 23, 2015, 11:16:27 AM
Random number generator fed through general MIDI + pitch corrected dog barks >>>>>>>>>> Majesty demos

Exactly my thoughts, too. Thank you Blob.

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 23, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
DTs  cover of Perfect Strangers suffers from what most of their covers suffer from.  They're clinically precise in their execution,  but there's nothing unique or added to the cover.  In most cases you're better off listening to the original,  since well,  it's the original.
Classic case in point: Dark Side of the Moon. Flawless cover. But why would you watch it? If the intent is to get as close to the real deal as possible, it seems the real deal is the thing to choose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 23, 2015, 08:07:50 PM
Good point rumby. If there was one thing I didn't like about DT's covers, is that they generally were too close to the original. I know many will probably disagree, but regarding DT's covers of Pink Floyd songs, especially Echoes, JL was very reserved in his vocal delivery, trying to mimic the original vocals instead of putting more of his own spin on them. Not that he had to go full out, but I would have loved to have seen what he would've done if he wasn't trying to copy Gilmour.

I'm glad at least they tried something different with Maiden's Gangland. Can't say it was any better than the original, but being that it was more of a throwaway track, it was worth the experiment.

Probably my favorite DT cover of all time is their version of Rush's Necromancer, and it's largely due to the fact that they walked that fine line of playing it close enough to the original to make it recognizable (at least to the Rush diehards) but still incorporating their own style into the song. For me, DT's cover of that song in particular is better than the original.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 23, 2015, 08:36:46 PM
I think it's pretty obvious. You would listen to the cover because it sounds better in one way or another. In Floyd's case, I prefer JLB's voice by far. Especially on Hey You, for instance. Same goes for Geoff Tate's cover of Welcome to the Machine (and it pains me to say it). They have more pleasant voices or delivery.

Covers are a damned if you do/don't cases. On one hand you'll have the people who don't like that it's an identical version, on the other you'd have people pissed because who do these people think they are to mess with something "holy". And IG's singing in PS is pretty lame in comparison. James basically did to PS what he did to Dominici's version of The Killing Hand or other I&W songs. That's enough of a change to not be clinical in my book.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 23, 2015, 10:41:33 PM
I could see if they did cover something by someone like Bob Dylan, where the original version of the song is considered inpalatable by many. But,  DT has always covered songs that were already impeccable in their original version. Their covers just don't add much.  And at least in my book, an original carries a certain additional thing that a cover doesn't have.  It's just not the guys who created it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I think 'The Looking Glass' is the best song off the self-titled album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on May 23, 2015, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I think 'The Looking Glass' is the best song off the self-titled album.

Even if I liked the song for what it was, the abrupt ending sort of kills it for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 23, 2015, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I think 'The Looking Glass' is the best song off the self-titled album.

Even if I liked the song for what it was, the abrupt ending sort of kills it for me.
It's the only downside of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on May 24, 2015, 03:08:02 AM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 23, 2015, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I think 'The Looking Glass' is the best song off the self-titled album.

Even if I liked the song for what it was, the abrupt ending sort of kills it for me.
It's the only downside of the song.
It ends abruptly for you too? I thought there was something wrong with my CD.












  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on May 24, 2015, 05:07:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 23, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
DTs  cover of Perfect Strangers suffers from what most of their covers suffer from.  They're clinically precise in their execution,  but there's nothing unique or added to the cover.  In most cases you're better off listening to the original,  since well,  it's the original.
Classic case in point: Dark Side of the Moon. Flawless cover. But why would you watch it? If the intent is to get as close to the real deal as possible, it seems the real deal is the thing to choose.
I definitely agree. I feel the same way about the Queen cover from Black Clouds. Everyone worships that, but I'll take the version on Sheer Heart Attack any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 24, 2015, 06:47:34 PM
I should clarify,  I don't have much of a problem with *live* covers that don't stray much from the original. It's a nice way for a band to break up their set, and show their influences.
It's when a band specifically goes into a studio to record a verbatim cover that makes me scratch my head.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 25, 2015, 05:50:45 AM
The Queen cover is cool because DT does put their spin on it.  Making it "DT Like". I think that's why most of us like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on May 25, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
The BC&SL cover CD is more enjoyable and listenable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 26, 2015, 10:16:28 AM
Most have become so accustomed to DT's longest songs being the best on their associated albums that they automatically thought it was true this time.  It isn't.  :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.

Why?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.

Why?

It's simply Mike's personal struggle, and it really seems strange for the guys to still be using it.  Granted the copyright to those specific songs is still theirs, but it was surreal seeing The Shattered Fortress being done without Mike anywhere.  That feels like his victory song to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.
I don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:44:47 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.

Why?

It's simply Mike's personal struggle, and it really seems strange for the guys to still be using it.  Granted the copyright to those specific songs is still theirs, but it was surreal seeing The Shattered Fortress being done without Mike anywhere.  That feels like his victory song to me.

Okay, but Mike never really viewed the songs that way.  I mean, yes, the lyrics were inspired by his own journey.  But they are not written in such a way as to be uniquely person to Mike.  They are meant to be (and quite literally, are) more about the 12 steps in general rather than simply being written about Mike's experience in the way that, say, The Best Of Times is very much about things that are intimate and personal to Mike.  If he had ever at any point expressed any such sentiment about those lyrics, that might be a different story.  But he hasn't.  And given the way the songs are written, I don't think he would.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:53:11 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:44:47 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I think it's incredibly inappropriate for DT to play any part of the AA Saga live now that Mike is gone.

Why?

It's simply Mike's personal struggle, and it really seems strange for the guys to still be using it.  Granted the copyright to those specific songs is still theirs, but it was surreal seeing The Shattered Fortress being done without Mike anywhere.  That feels like his victory song to me.

Okay, but Mike never really viewed the songs that way.  I mean, yes, the lyrics were inspired by his own journey.  But they are not written in such a way as to be uniquely person to Mike.  They are meant to be (and quite literally, are) more about the 12 steps in general rather than simply being written about Mike's experience in the way that, say, The Best Of Times is very much about things that are intimate and personal to Mike.  If he had ever at any point expressed any such sentiment about those lyrics, that might be a different story.  But he hasn't.  And given the way the songs are written, I don't think he would.

Hence why it's a controversial opinion. :)   Or did I go into the wrong thread?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 26, 2015, 01:59:44 PM
I think it's more because of the reasons you mentioned, not the opinion itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: abydos on May 26, 2015, 01:59:44 PM
I think it's more because of the reasons you mentioned, not the opinion itself.

I understand that.  Unfortunately, I'm coming from this from a different perspective here as they hit a bit close to home, and I remember when Mike was still struggling.  I've been away from the band for quite some time, and it was super surreal to jump back in and see them still being played.

If we gave the same courtesy to Space Dye Vest for this long, then why not the AA Saga?  Granted SDV wasn't a good song to begin with, but that's another controversial opinion for another day.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 26, 2015, 02:10:32 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 02:08:14 PM
If we gave the same courtesy to Space Dye Vest for this long, then why not the AA Saga?  Granted SDV wasn't a good song to begin with, but that's another controversial opinion for another day.  :P

No, that would be a CORRECT opinion. 

But it wasn't so much a courtesy as much as Mike simply not liking the song and the band not feeling it really fit as a "Dream Theater song." 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 26, 2015, 02:14:20 PM
Quote from: Telefragged on May 26, 2015, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: abydos on May 26, 2015, 01:59:44 PM
If we gave the same courtesy to Space Dye Vest for this long, then why not the AA Saga?  Granted SDV wasn't a good song to begin with, but that's another controversial opinion for another day.  :P
That wasn't about courtesy.  MP made the setlists, and he didn't like the song.

EDIT: ninja'd by bosky
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 26, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
The one they should probably stay away from is Repentance. It's not a great song to begin with, and it has too much MP in it. Glass Prison on the other hand is totally fair game. At that point the whole concept hadn't jumped the shark yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 26, 2015, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 26, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
The one they should probably stay away from is Repentance. It's not a great song to begin with, and it has too much MP in it. Glass Prison on the other hand is totally fair game. At that point the whole concept hadn't jumped the shark yet.


I agree with this 100%.


Especially since Flying Colors played it on their tour... that kinda makes me think Mike has a stronger connection sentimentally to that than the rest of the 12SS
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 26, 2015, 10:54:44 PM
I think DT and MP both have every right to perform the 12SS songs live, and I get more and more baffled as to why DT hasn't performed TGP in so long.

Quote from: JayOctavarium on May 26, 2015, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 26, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
The one they should probably stay away from is Repentance. It's not a great song to begin with, and it has too much MP in it. Glass Prison on the other hand is totally fair game. At that point the whole concept hadn't jumped the shark yet.


I agree with this 100%.


Especially since Flying Colors played it on their tour... that kinda makes me think Mike has a stronger connection sentimentally to that than the rest of the 12SS

Or it was just the easiest to put together for a new band. It's the only one of the 12SS that isn't a difficult song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on May 26, 2015, 11:04:48 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 23, 2015, 04:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on May 22, 2015, 10:05:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
DT's cover of Perfect Strangers is better than the original by Deep Purple.

While we're at it, may I say that I think that DT's version of Hey You is superior to the original by Pink Floyd?
You may say it, but I won't agree with it.


Well, yeah, I mean, I'm not so naive that I'd expect you to agree with me on anything.  :lol

Quote from: JayOctavarium on May 23, 2015, 10:26:56 AM
DT + Bruce covering Perfect Strangers :heart

Too bad there was never a good quality recording of it. Otherwise, yeah, the idea of it is pretty damn legendary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on May 26, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
Repentance is the 2nd best 12SS song, behind The Glass Prison.

And the Dark Side of the Moon cover is excellent, specially Any Colour You Like. That jam is amazing - it truly fit with the album's flow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on May 26, 2015, 11:17:28 PM
Quote from: Sacul on May 26, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
Repentance is the 2nd best 12SS song, behind The Glass Prison.

I'd say second or third best for me, as well.

But, to up the controversy level of my post: My favorite in the suite is This Dying Soul, and the song that is competing with Repentance for second place right now is The Shattered Fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 26, 2015, 11:19:24 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 26, 2015, 10:54:44 PM
I think DT and MP both have every right to perform the 12SS songs live, and I get more and more baffled as to why DT hasn't performed TGP in so long.

To be fair, they haven't performed A Change of Seasons in a long time either. I think both will make a comeback soon. Especially since they'll probably be celebrating 30 years for the 2016 tour as well as the 2015 dates (like how they celebrated 20 years from 2005 through 2006). There's a lot of songs that they haven't played in a while that are loved by most fans. Take the Time, Voices, A Change of Seasons, Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Home, The Glass Prison, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Stream of Consiousness, In the Name of God, and Octavarium all haven't been played live since Mike Mangini joined the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 27, 2015, 12:01:01 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 26, 2015, 11:19:24 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 26, 2015, 10:54:44 PM
I think DT and MP both have every right to perform the 12SS songs live, and I get more and more baffled as to why DT hasn't performed TGP in so long.

To be fair, they haven't performed A Change of Seasons in a long time either. I think both will make a comeback soon. Especially since they'll probably be celebrating 30 years for the 2016 tour as well as the 2015 dates (like how they celebrated 20 years from 2005 through 2006). There's a lot of songs that they haven't played in a while that are loved by most fans. Take the Time, Voices, A Change of Seasons, Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Home, The Glass Prison, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Stream of Consiousness, In the Name of God, and Octavarium all haven't been played live since Mike Mangini joined the band.

ACOS is a much longer song, so it makes practical sense not to play it often (and it's also extremely mediocre imo), and has been played plenty in the past. TGP has been constantly overlooked.

They've only played a narrow selection of songs in their two tours with MM because of limited or no setlist rotation, so I wouldn't read too much into that, especially given how many albums were completely omitted from the last tour's setlist (IaW and SDOIT especially).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on May 27, 2015, 01:02:47 AM
I imagine TGP is really physically challenging to do live. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 27, 2015, 01:05:14 AM
I also figure that plays a part in it, but TSF is also fairly demanding, which they played last tour. I wouldn't say as demanding as TGP, but I think it shows they could do it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2015, 08:03:38 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 26, 2015, 10:54:44 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on May 26, 2015, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 26, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
The one they should probably stay away from is Repentance. It's not a great song to begin with, and it has too much MP in it. Glass Prison on the other hand is totally fair game. At that point the whole concept hadn't jumped the shark yet.


I agree with this 100%.


Especially since Flying Colors played it on their tour... that kinda makes me think Mike has a stronger connection sentimentally to that than the rest of the 12SS

Or it was just the easiest to put together for a new band. It's the only one of the 12SS that isn't a difficult song.

I suspect that that is the case.  And it is a song that had only been played one time before.  Mike is still conscious of wanting to give fans rare treats, and this would have fallen right in that category.  And lastly, I think you also have to take into account the singing styles of the vocalists in Flying Colors.  Most DT songs would not be a good fit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 27, 2015, 09:00:14 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2015, 08:03:38 AM
I suspect that that is the case.  And it is a song that had only been played one time before.  Mike is still conscious of wanting to give fans are treats, and this would have fallen right in that category.  And lastly, I think you also have to take into account the singing styles of the vocalists in Flying Colors.  Most DT songs would not be a good fit.

That too. It's just the obvious logical choice, rather than necessarily a personal one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2015, 09:09:19 AM
Yup, I agree.

...or Mike may have just said, "Hey guys, I've been wanting to do this one for awhile, but it just somehow never made it into the set list with DT.  Mind if we do it?"  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 27, 2015, 09:12:40 AM
Are you suggesting that we may be over-analyzing something DT related? Surely you jest, bosky.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 27, 2015, 09:17:35 AM
Perish the thought!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 27, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
As someone who has played a good number of DT songs live, I can definitely say that TGP was the most challenging. Not in terms of speed or technical difficulty, but it's simply tiring. It repeats several awkward riffs over and over again. You really have to time your energy expenditure in the song.
I remember that by the time the solos came around, despite the fact that I could pretty easily play them when I was practicing them, live my arms were just tired by the time you arrive at them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on May 27, 2015, 10:45:00 AM
I've never tried playing either of the songs, but TGP sounds a lot more technical for sure. TSF has got that mellow bit in the middle and is less fast-paced overall. I think even JP himself has said those arpeggios in TGP are damn tricky! :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 27, 2015, 10:47:50 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 27, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
As someone who has played a good number of DT songs live, I can definitely say that TGP was the most challenging. Not in terms of speed or technical difficulty, but it's simply tiring. It repeats several awkward riffs over and over again. You really have to time your energy expenditure in the song.
I remember that by the time the solos came around, despite the fact that I could pretty easily play them when I was practicing them, live my arms were just tired by the time you arrive at them.
I certainly don't have the technical acumen to play such a song, but that has always been my impression.  That song has got to be a workout.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on May 27, 2015, 08:37:12 PM
I hope they decide to play A Change of Seasons in full from time to time. Still my favorite of their 20+ minute songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ResultsMayVary on May 27, 2015, 11:33:29 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on May 24, 2015, 03:08:02 AM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: Lucien on May 23, 2015, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on May 23, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
I think 'The Looking Glass' is the best song off the self-titled album.

Even if I liked the song for what it was, the abrupt ending sort of kills it for me.
It's the only downside of the song.
It ends abruptly for you too? I thought there was something wrong with my CD.












  :laugh:

HAHAHA PULL ME UNDER JOKE

SO FUNNY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on May 28, 2015, 12:06:29 AM
Quote from: ? on May 27, 2015, 10:45:00 AM
I've never tried playing either of the songs, but TGP sounds a lot more technical for sure. TSF has got that mellow bit in the middle and is less fast-paced overall. I think even JP himself has said those arpeggios in TGP are damn tricky! :D


I know it's just 30 seconds, but yeah. He never seems to have tried something  similar since (maybe Never Enough unison?), and he messed it up a lot. The old board is probably filled with those opinions. He could do better now with it, being they play fixed tempos. MP always had that tempo cranked, and makes sense as it was an opener in 2002.

I never thought the actual song was top 5 DT hard, but I have not personally tried it on bass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 28, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
Sorry to hijack but in terms of difficulty, how does it compare against something like ITNOG?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: abydos on May 28, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
Sorry to hijack but in terms of difficulty, how does it compare against something like ITNOG?
ITNOG doesn't sound all that challenging to me (comparatively speaking).  It's just a long song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on May 28, 2015, 08:05:09 AM
Yeah, aside from the instrumental section, it's not that hard, I'd say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 28, 2015, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: abydos on May 28, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
Sorry to hijack but in terms of difficulty, how does it compare against something like ITNOG?
ITNOG doesn't sound all that challenging to me (comparatively speaking).  It's just a long song.
With a dip in the middle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 28, 2015, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Skeever on May 27, 2015, 08:37:12 PM
I hope they decide to play A Change of Seasons in full from time to time. Still my favorite of their 20+ minute songs.

I was hoping they'd do that on this last tour.  But nooooooooo... :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2015, 08:51:04 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 28, 2015, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: abydos on May 28, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
Sorry to hijack but in terms of difficulty, how does it compare against something like ITNOG?
ITNOG doesn't sound all that challenging to me (comparatively speaking).  It's just a long song.
With a dip in the middle.
Don't talk about MP like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on May 28, 2015, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on May 28, 2015, 08:05:09 AM
Yeah, aside from the instrumental section, it's not that hard, I'd say.
I guess that was the main thing I was referring to. The instrumental section and JP's solo to be exact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 29, 2015, 06:33:00 AM
ITNOG is quite easy to play. Up to the unison section. That one is crazy hard to play. But, i always consoled myself with the fact that even DT can't play it cleanly live :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: orcus116 on May 29, 2015, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 28, 2015, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 28, 2015, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: abydos on May 28, 2015, 06:05:42 AM
Sorry to hijack but in terms of difficulty, how does it compare against something like ITNOG?
ITNOG doesn't sound all that challenging to me (comparatively speaking).  It's just a long song.
With a dip in the middle.

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on May 30, 2015, 07:38:44 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 29, 2015, 06:33:00 AM
ITNOG is quite easy to play. Up to the unison section. That one is crazy hard to play. But, i always consoled myself with the fact that even DT can't play it cleanly live :lol

The only DT show I've been to, back on the BCSL tour, the sound wasn't good enough to tell how much the solos were being nailed. Except that section, which was flawless. I was floored.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on May 30, 2015, 09:06:58 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 27, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
As someone who has played a good number of DT songs live, I can definitely say that TGP was the most challenging. Not in terms of speed or technical difficulty, but it's simply tiring. It repeats several awkward riffs over and over again. You really have to time your energy expenditure in the song.
I remember that by the time the solos came around, despite the fact that I could pretty easily play them when I was practicing them, live my arms were just tired by the time you arrive at them.

How does it compare to other notoriously difficult sections, such as the Blind Faith unison?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FLEEBS on June 02, 2015, 12:10:41 PM
So interesting to see everyone's opinions. I'm sure some of mine might be contoversial.

I love Majesty.
As someone else said, and I totally agree, Chris Collins is way better than Charlie Dominici.
I like Charlie Dominici.
When Dream and Day Unite is awesome, although I didn't used to think that way.
Scarred is fantastic.
Falling Into Infinity is fantastic.
Anna Lee is a wonderful, beautiful song. I even named my daughter Anna Lee. Don't understand the hate for this song, personally.
The best version of Take Away My Pain is on Once in a Livetime. I have no idea what popular opinion is on this, so this may not be controversial at all.
My favorite song off Scenes is Through Her Eyes. I absolutely love it. I am rather partial to slow songs, though, even if I love metal.
Six Degrees doesn't really do it for me. I'm talking about the double album and the piece, but I find many parts of the piece rather cheesy.
Misunderstood doesn't do much for me, and the ending is atrocious. And just when you think it's going away, IT COMES BACK.
Train of Thought is DT's worst album. WAY too one sided for them.
Endless Sacrifice is kind of boring.
Octavarium, the whole album, is awesome.
I Walk Beside You is my favorite song off Octavarium.
Systematic Chaos is awesome.
My favorite song off Systematic Chaos is Prophets of War (but, man, I do love In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1 and Pt. 2).
One of the worst DT songs ever written is The Dark Eternal Night. Stupid lyrics, and just a boring song overall.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of my favorite DT albums.
I love Wither so much. Even danced to it at my wedding reception.
The Shattered Fortress is awesome.
A Dramatic Turn of Events is not that good.
It makes no sense to me how On the Backs of Angels got nominated for a Grammy.
Beneath the Surface is fantastic.
DT12 is not that good, either.
The production on DT12 is terrible, and the drums sound terrible (not the playing, though).
I also don't get how The Enemy Inside got nominated for a Grammy, even though it's a good song.
The sudden interest in DT by the Grammy foundation (or whatever it's called) is ridiculous. There are many more songs far more deserving of Grammy nominations/wins in DT's discography (and even on the individual albums themselves) than the two that have been nominated. As far as I'm concerned, DT never should win a Grammy. They don't need that kind of company, even if I don't really think it would affect their future music much.
Mike Mangini is awesome (amazing musician and drummer), but Portnoy was a much better fit for the band.
Mike Portnoy's input on the band (heaviness, blast beat, and vocals included) are/were not a problem. I liked what he offered the band in all regards.

Having said all of that, the weird thing for me is even with the things I don't like about DT, I still like about DT. For example, I can really enjoy The Dark Eternal Night from time to time. I really enjoy Train of Thought from time to time. Six Degrees has grown a lot on me over the years, and it's cool  to listen to the entire piece from time to time. The songs and albums I don't care for much are still songs and albums I like. There are just DT songs and albums I like much more.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on June 02, 2015, 03:24:40 PM
Quite a few of those aren't controversial at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: FLEEBS on June 02, 2015, 04:00:04 PM
Maybe so. It's just that since I joined the forums, I've seen so many people hating on things about the band that I love, or conversely loving things about the band I don't care too much for. But that's one of the things I think is so fantastic about Dream Theater. I've said it in another post, but Dream Theater is so diverse in style that you could take a handful of fans and each one of them could like something completely different about the band. Not many bands can pull that off, and I think that's awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 07, 2015, 07:26:55 AM
My (very) controversial opinion on DT is:
When I first heard DT, I did not like them at all. And then they put some more albums out and I still did not like them.....and guess what? I STILL do not like those first albums. The thing is, I absolutely LOVE everything DT has done since  SFAM, and I think every single album since then is better than the previous one up to BCSL, my favourite. The last two are totally awesome too, and I can't wait for the next one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on June 07, 2015, 11:42:20 AM
While it is certainly controversial, I think you should see a doctor. Just to be safe :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on June 07, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
One of my friends doesn't really like anything pre-Train of Thought from DT. He loves SC though, that's his favourite DT album.

Also, I checked and I'm pretty sure he's not XBOBX. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on June 11, 2015, 06:43:29 AM
Raw dog > Enigma machine
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bolsters on June 11, 2015, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on June 11, 2015, 06:43:29 AM
Raw dog > Enigma machine
Hell yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 11, 2015, 07:22:03 AM
Quote from: Bolsters on June 11, 2015, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on June 11, 2015, 06:43:29 AM
Raw dog > Enigma machine
Hell yes.
I've been saying that all along!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 11, 2015, 07:53:54 AM
I'd say ixnay on the bothay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 11, 2015, 08:32:59 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 11, 2015, 07:53:54 AM
I'd say ixnay on the bothay.
I'd say ixnay on the ixnay!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on June 12, 2015, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: Evermind on June 07, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
One of my friends doesn't really like anything pre-Train of Thought from DT. He loves SC though, that's his favourite DT album.
Not even TGP? :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 12, 2015, 12:30:47 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on June 11, 2015, 06:43:29 AM
Raw dog > Enigma machine

Co-signed
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on June 12, 2015, 02:06:19 AM
Quote from: Sacul on June 12, 2015, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: Evermind on June 07, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
One of my friends doesn't really like anything pre-Train of Thought from DT. He loves SC though, that's his favourite DT album.
Not even TGP? :o

I meant in terms of albums. He still likes occassional songs here and there (The Mirror, for example).

I didn't ask him about TGP because I don't like TGP that much. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on June 12, 2015, 04:29:52 PM
You monster.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on June 12, 2015, 04:56:15 PM
JP's best style was around FII. His playing on FII demos are one of the greatest things he ever made IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on June 12, 2015, 11:34:16 PM
Going off that, JP's style around FII was definitely unique. The whole band, actually. I can't really pinpoint what it's like but it's different than IAW or Awake or really anything they've done. Something about the sound of FII and the demos was very "rock," mainstream-ish, almost 80's sounding with some Rush influence.

For some reason all the music from that time period makes me think of the ocean, the sea, some form of water. Maybe it's just the FII cover but it gives me that even when I'm not looking at the art :lol For whatever reason the wah guitar and crisp clean guitar sounds found on that music, as well as Derek's keyboard sounds, give me that imagery

Didn't mean to turn that into a big ramble but I'd always thought about how the whole style of FII and the demos was very unique, and pretty damn good actually
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on June 17, 2015, 11:05:49 AM
I want to see more "rapping" like on ToT.

I want to see more Tool influence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 17, 2015, 11:10:05 AM
I do not like tool. But their influence (at least it seems like it) over ToT was really cool. If the new release turns out to be ToT part 2 I will not be disappointed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: comment on June 17, 2015, 08:48:32 PM
Quote from: zecawolf on June 17, 2015, 11:10:05 AM
I do not like tool. But their influence (at least it seems like it) over ToT was really cool. If the new release turns out to be ToT part 2 I will not be disappointed.

TOT2 sounds good to me; hold the rap. ...  I never heard Tool in TOT though.  I'll haft to give them both a listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 18, 2015, 09:08:23 AM
Well, this topic is pretty much what motivated me to make a ranking of all the studio DT tracks, and while I'm still working on it, I've encountered a LOT of my own controversial opinions: I enjoy quite a few Falling Into Infinity songs that are considered simple/radio-friendly, Burning My Soul for instance. On the other hand, Trial of Tears is one of my least favorite 10+ minute songs by Dream Theater. I absolutely love Images and Words, but the album followed by it known as Awake by the exact same line-up is a big step down for me. Now that we're talking about controversial album opinions: A Dramatic Turn of Events, definitely in my top 5 if not top 3, I love most of the songs on there, except for two or three. I am more of a metal guy, and don't get me wrong, I love some of the mellow Dream Theater songs, but The Spirit Carries On never grew on me to this day. Also, about the instrumental section, Erotomania and Hell's Kitchen are in my opinion worse than Enigma Machine. And finally, epics, while this is way shorter than the 20 minute epics, Breaking All Illusions probably beats Octavarium, Count of Tuscany, ITPOE and Illumination Theory in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on June 18, 2015, 09:44:38 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 18, 2015, 09:08:23 AM
I love some of the mellow Dream Theater songs, but The Spirit Carries On never grew on me to this day

Thank you. I really don't get the love this song receives on this forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 18, 2015, 09:54:41 AM
nothing beats count of tuscany. If it was a superhero it would beat the crap out of superman and hulk at the same time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 18, 2015, 09:59:33 AM
Quote from: zecawolf on June 18, 2015, 09:54:41 AM
nothing beats count of tuscany. If it was a superhero it would beat the crap out of superman and hulk at the same time.
It doesn't do much for me.  There are certainly pieces of brilliance there, but there are other passages of music that leave me cold, and the lyrics are generally awful, IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 18, 2015, 10:05:16 AM
I agree that the lyrics are not so brilliant.....but I don't care too much for lyrics.  But even not being that great, it does have a certain charm.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 18, 2015, 10:08:38 AM
I like unpretentious lyrics, and ones that try to escape from every day "reality" themes. Political/social lyrics do not appeal to me...so I tend to like SC lyrics very much!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 18, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on June 18, 2015, 09:44:38 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 18, 2015, 09:08:23 AM
I love some of the mellow Dream Theater songs, but The Spirit Carries On never grew on me to this day

Thank you. I really don't get the love this song receives on this forum.

The solo.

THE SOLO!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 18, 2015, 11:54:24 AM
Yeah, the solo is incredible, easily one of JP's best.

Also, the rest of the song has a real Floyd feel to it, and it's in a major key, and is a favorite during live performances. 

What's not to like?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 18, 2015, 12:01:15 PM
I get not liking it if it's not your thing.  But I don't get not getting why others would like it.  As Hef said, it has a lot going for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 18, 2015, 12:08:14 PM
Trust bosk1 in all things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 18, 2015, 01:16:44 PM
Yeah, "respect anyone's opinion as long as they respect yours" has always been my "TRAIN OF THOUGHT" (no pun intended) ha ha.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 18, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 18, 2015, 01:16:44 PM
Yeah, "respect anyone's opinion as long as they respect yours" has always been my "TRAIN OF THOUGHT" (no pun intended) ha ha.

As much as I love puns, that one doesn't work at all :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 18, 2015, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 18, 2015, 12:01:15 PM
I get not liking it if it's not your thing.  But I don't get not getting why others would like it.  As Hef said, it has a lot going for it.

I could respond and set off a 10 page discussion. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 19, 2015, 01:44:09 AM
Forgot to mention some yesterday:

- Endless Sacrifice is easily a top 10 song
- (Has been mentioned many times, but) Pull Me Under gets too much attention from casual fans, and not enough attention from die-hard fans
- The Dark Eternal Night has some of the best riffs in the entire discography
- SDoIT (track) is overrated, The Test That Stumped Them All being the best part of it
- The Looking Glass is the worst DT12 song
- Under a Glass Moon is on the bottom half of I&W songs
- ITPoE pt. 2 is better than pt. 1, Heretic being the best chapter
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:00:04 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 19, 2015, 01:44:09 AM
- ITPoE pt. 2 is better than pt. 1, Heretic being the best chapter
I would guess that this is the most controversial of those opinions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 19, 2015, 06:03:17 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:00:04 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 19, 2015, 01:44:09 AM
- ITPoE pt. 2 is better than pt. 1, Heretic being the best chapter
I would guess that this is the most controversial of those opinions.

I'm in love with the "Angels fall, all for you... etc." part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:05:04 AM
Yeah, I agree with you that it's the best part of Pt. 2.

I meant the "Pt. 2 is better than Pt. 1" thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:09:08 AM
I prefer part 1 overall, but I don't think it's too controversial. Part 2 still has a lot of equally (and more) amazing sections, despite the sections that drag it down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:13:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:09:08 AM
I prefer part 1 overall, but I don't think it's too controversial. Part 2 still has a lot of equally (and more) amazing sections, despite the sections that drag it down.
Yeah, but pt. 1 is all killer, no filler.

When the album first came out, opinion was HEAVILY in favor of pt. 1, and I haven't seen a noticeable change over the years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:24:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:13:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:09:08 AM
I prefer part 1 overall, but I don't think it's too controversial. Part 2 still has a lot of equally (and more) amazing sections, despite the sections that drag it down.
Yeah, but pt. 1 is all killer, no filler.

When the album first came out, opinion was HEAVILY in favor of pt. 1, and I haven't seen a noticeable change over the years.


Part 1 is definitely the more consistent, but it doesn't have the highs of part 2. And prog fans are fickle creatures who are easily offended by things that deviate from the middle ground, so their opinions matter not to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 19, 2015, 07:05:31 AM
Both parts are awesome and are on my top 5, but I like part 2 better. And that is my favourite song by DT, tied with Count of Tuscany.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:24:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:13:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:09:08 AM
I prefer part 1 overall, but I don't think it's too controversial. Part 2 still has a lot of equally (and more) amazing sections, despite the sections that drag it down.
Yeah, but pt. 1 is all killer, no filler.

When the album first came out, opinion was HEAVILY in favor of pt. 1, and I haven't seen a noticeable change over the years.


Part 1 is definitely the more consistent, but it doesn't have the highs of part 2. And prog fans are fickle creatures who are easily offended by things that deviate from the middle ground, so their opinions matter not to me.
Much like non-prog fans and their opinions to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:21:11 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:24:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 06:13:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 06:09:08 AM
I prefer part 1 overall, but I don't think it's too controversial. Part 2 still has a lot of equally (and more) amazing sections, despite the sections that drag it down.
Yeah, but pt. 1 is all killer, no filler.

When the album first came out, opinion was HEAVILY in favor of pt. 1, and I haven't seen a noticeable change over the years.


Part 1 is definitely the more consistent, but it doesn't have the highs of part 2. And prog fans are fickle creatures who are easily offended by things that deviate from the middle ground, so their opinions matter not to me.
Much like non-prog fans and their opinions to me.

Non-prog fan isn't a term. The correct term for that is "everybody". :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 07:24:32 AM
Take your devil tongue out of this thread you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:25:14 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 19, 2015, 07:24:32 AM
Take your devil tongue out of this thread you.

It's the controversial opinion thread. Deal with it! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 07:33:31 AM
Dammit! :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:21:11 AM
Non-prog fan isn't a term. The correct term for that is "everybody". :lol
In this particular context, the correct term is "everybody else."  The overwhelming majority of people here would characterize themselves, in one way or another, as fans of prog.  You are the outlier.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:48:44 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:21:11 AM
Non-prog fan isn't a term. The correct term for that is "everybody". :lol
In this particular context, the correct term is "everybody else."  The overwhelming majority of people here would characterize themselves, in one way or another, as fans of prog.  You are the outlier.

But in reality, prog fans are the outliers, so that doesn't matter to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:59:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:48:44 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 07:21:11 AM
Non-prog fan isn't a term. The correct term for that is "everybody". :lol
In this particular context, the correct term is "everybody else."  The overwhelming majority of people here would characterize themselves, in one way or another, as fans of prog.  You are the outlier.

But in reality, prog fans are the outliers, so that doesn't matter to me.
THIS IS NOT REALITY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 08:04:02 AM
I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 19, 2015, 08:22:50 AM
I do not think that there are many DT fans that do not like some of the "traditional prog" bands. I like Gentle Giant, Yes, ELP and Jethro Tull a lot. Do not care too much for Pink Floyd. Ironically, I do not like Prog metal bands, Being DT the ONLY exception.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 08:31:18 AM
THIS IS PROG SPARTA!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 19, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
Not sure why you guys are still arguing with Blob.  He dropped a "deal with it" at the end of the last page, so that means he wins whether he is right or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 19, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 19, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
Not sure why you guys are still arguing with Blob.  He dropped a "deal with it" at the end of the last page, so that means he wins where he is right or not.

I wasn't sure whether it still held up outside of the jurisdiction of the musical "deal with it" thread, but apparently so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 19, 2015, 08:53:59 AM
No, it definitely does.  It is multi-jurisdictional.  Deal with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 08:55:09 AM
As co-owner of France, I cannot abide this ruling.

I hereby declare....

SHENANIGANS!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 09:26:15 AM
TRAITER AVEC ELLE! :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on June 19, 2015, 11:47:13 AM
 :justjen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 19, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 19, 2015, 09:26:15 AM
TRAITER AVEC ELLE! :lol

"Deal with her"?

Who is she? She's beautiful...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 19, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 19, 2015, 09:26:15 AM
TRAITER AVEC ELLE! :lol

"Deal with her"?

Who is she? She's beautiful...

See!  Google translator sucks. :lol

Should have been "il"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 01:07:15 PM
Fuck, king, you suck at English.  Why are you attempting French?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 01:40:50 PM
No. I suck at spelling english.  I took 4 years of french and I suck at that.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 19, 2015, 01:57:23 PM
Dammit
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 19, 2015, 02:12:29 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 19, 2015, 01:40:50 PM
No. I suck at spelling english.  I took 4 years of french and I suck at that.  :lol
Google Translate needs to add a new language..Kingshmeglish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 19, 2015, 02:17:31 PM
I just need an editor.  Blob has offered his services for a small fee. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on June 19, 2015, 05:07:35 PM
what the hell is going on in here
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
I think that ToT has the best production / mix of any of their albums.


COME AT ME 6 DEGREE FUCKERS!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on June 19, 2015, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
I think that ToT has the best production / mix of any of their albums.


COME AT ME 6 DEGREE FUCKERS!

Oh, it's the Falling Into Infinity fuckers who would come at you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 19, 2015, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
I think that ToT has the best production / mix of any of their albums.


COME AT ME 6 DEGREE FUCKERS!

I f "better" means that it's the production/mix that best fits the songs on the album (which I think it does) I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
By best I mean it's my favourite. 8VRM comes close but falls flat. FII is great as well, Images and Awake sound dated, Scenes has mix issues. I really enjoy SC but the compression makes it a bit meh. ADTOE falls flatter than 8VRM... DT12 and Black Clouds... we all know the issues there...


And I don't listen to 6DOIT enough to give a damn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 19, 2015, 07:45:57 PM
Yes, agree. It's not my personal favourite (I don't love the drums sound), but it certainly delivers exactly what the songs ask. ToT is overall one of my favourite albums.  And perhaps the most different from anything else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lithium112 on June 19, 2015, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
By best I mean it's my favourite.

I'll back you up on this. ToT sounds amazing. Every time I put it on it's like John Myung breaks down my front door, sets up his cab in front of my face and starts grooving. Love it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 19, 2015, 10:06:16 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 06:21:42 PM
COME AT ME 6 DEGREE FUCKERS!

Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 19, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
And I don't listen to 6DOIT enough to give a damn


:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 02:02:31 AM
Most Overrated album: Black Clouds.... ewwwwwww  :\

I mean, Count of Tuscany is the most anti-climatic thing they've done
Shattered Fortress is a bad joke, the laziest way of finishing the AA suite
A Passage something is their tribute to singles and Metallica
The other ones are ok, except for Best of Times that I think it's the one song made with true heart.

 :chill
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:05:54 AM
How can an album be overrated when it's not highly rated to begin with? That's not controversial on DTF (unfortunately). If anything, it's underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 02:13:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:05:54 AM
If anything, it's underrated.

I've seen a lot of the opposite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 02:13:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:05:54 AM
If anything, it's underrated.

I've seen a lot of the opposite.

I'd like to see links to this mythical place, because it sure ain't DTF.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 02:22:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:17:21 AM
Quote from: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 02:13:54 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:05:54 AM
If anything, it's underrated.

I've seen a lot of the opposite.

I'd like to see links to this mythical place, because it sure ain't DTF.

See, this is controversial.

I have to give you that, not DTF, I was a member here until Systematic Chaos so I don't know what the popular opinion here was

It's just my opinion, I got frustrated after the BC&SL show I attended, it exacerbated my position towards this album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:36:57 AM
Then maybe stick around for more than 15 posts before deciding what warrants being in the "controversial opinion" thread here in future. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 11:47:26 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 20, 2015, 02:36:57 AM
Then maybe stick around for more than 15 posts before deciding what warrants being in the "controversial opinion" thread here in future. :P

Dealio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 20, 2015, 11:54:20 AM
He's at 16 now.

Legit.








Oh another controversial opinion:

I really enjoy New Millennium. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 20, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on June 20, 2015, 11:54:20 AM
He's at 16 now.

Legit.








Oh another controversial opinion:

I really enjoy New Millennium.

17 *cof *cof

I also enjoy New Muillenium
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 20, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Enjoying New Millennium is not controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 20, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Enjoying New Millennium is not controversial.

Isn't it? I don't hear a lot of discussion about it, but it usually appears to be negative to me. I love the song though, along with most of the album, so either way I'll back it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 21, 2015, 03:07:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 20, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Enjoying New Millennium is not controversial.

Isn't it? I don't hear a lot of discussion about it, but it usually appears to be negative to me. I love the song though, along with most of the album, so either way I'll back it up.
I don't think it is, for most people, it's up there right behind Tot PS and LitS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 03:15:17 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 21, 2015, 03:07:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 20, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Enjoying New Millennium is not controversial.

Isn't it? I don't hear a lot of discussion about it, but it usually appears to be negative to me. I love the song though, along with most of the album, so either way I'll back it up.
I don't think it is, for most people, it's up there right behind Tot PS and LitS.

Not most people on DTF! I want to know where all of these fans are dangit! :lol They're my kind of people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 21, 2015, 03:25:06 AM
Go look for my Train of Thought/Systematic Chaos people while you're at it. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on June 21, 2015, 05:02:55 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 21, 2015, 03:25:06 AM
Go look for my Train of Thought/Systematic Chaos people while you're at it. :tup

 :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 21, 2015, 05:03:45 AM
A lot of people who dislike New Millennium REALLY dislike it, so they draw a lot of attention to themselves.

But I think a majority of people actually like the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 05:11:15 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 21, 2015, 05:03:45 AM
A lot of people who dislike New Millennium REALLY dislike it, so they draw a lot of attention to themselves.

But I think a majority of people actually like the song.

That probably is the case. Someone also recently said they saw a lot of hate for Hell's Kitchen, which I think was also a case of the dislikers being a lot more vocal than the likers, because I've always gotten the impression that the majority of people like that too.
Some songs are in that middle spot where they don't get discussed often except for by the smaller number of people who feel really strongly enough about it to comment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 21, 2015, 06:22:22 AM
I'm indifferent to New Millenium. I teeter to not liking it I guess. Still remember the first listen I had. Thought it failed miserably in trying to be a new Metropolis. It's a song that tries too hard and doesn't really go anywhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 06:27:41 AM
I've never gotten the impression it was trying to be anything like Metropolis at all, so I don't get the comparison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 21, 2015, 06:49:25 AM
I don't know. Bloated piece with extended instrumental section. I've always made that association and it was my first impression.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 06:51:42 AM
As far as DT goes, that's an incredibly vague description. :lol First time I've ever heard anyone mention them together.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 21, 2015, 07:11:22 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on June 21, 2015, 07:51:00 AM
The first time I heard NM it was one of those WTF moments up there with HITNF for Queensryche or VH 3 for Van Halen.  I couldn't stand it back then and still can't.   The rest of the album has (mostly) grown on me but at the time it felt like much of what I liked about DT had gone missing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 21, 2015, 08:15:10 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on June 21, 2015, 07:51:00 AM
but at the time it felt like much of what I liked about DT had gone missing.
It was clear from that first listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on June 21, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
New Millenium is awesome. Love the interaction between keyboards and guitar on that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on June 21, 2015, 04:38:40 PM
It's certainly not their best song, but it's fine, I don't mind it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 21, 2015, 09:32:23 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 03:15:17 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on June 21, 2015, 03:07:13 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 21, 2015, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 20, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Enjoying New Millennium is not controversial.

Isn't it? I don't hear a lot of discussion about it, but it usually appears to be negative to me. I love the song though, along with most of the album, so either way I'll back it up.
I don't think it is, for most people, it's up there right behind Tot PS and LitS.

Not most people on DTF! I want to know where all of these fans are dangit! :lol They're my kind of people.

I'm a fan of NM, but that doesn't make me your kind of person.   :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 21, 2015, 08:15:10 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on June 21, 2015, 07:51:00 AM
but at the time it felt like much of what I liked about DT had gone missing.
It was clear from that first listen.

Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies and Hollow Years are excellent tunes. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 22, 2015, 02:50:55 PM
Watch the new album be a double album consisting of rerecordings of ACoS-FII (including songs left off original album. ..)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:52:57 PM
Why would we ever want to see a rerecording of FII songs? The vocals would be worse and the production would be worse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 22, 2015, 02:53:32 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:52:57 PM
Why would we ever want to see a rerecording of FII songs? The vocals would be worse and the production would be worse.
This.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 22, 2015, 02:56:23 PM
Twas a joke. Since the last couple posts have been and FII.





Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on June 22, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies and Hollow Years are excellent tunes. Just my 2 cents.

In fact, aside from You Not Me (which is not terrible, but not very good either), I would say the whole album is excellent. It took a long time to grow on me, but I now consider it one of my Top 3 DT albums, along with Six Degrees and Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 22, 2015, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 21, 2015, 08:15:10 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on June 21, 2015, 07:51:00 AM
but at the time it felt like much of what I liked about DT had gone missing.
It was clear from that first listen.

Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

And it didn't happen again until track 11.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on June 22, 2015, 07:34:03 PM
I like the melodies in New Millenium, but I don't like the tone it takes on nor do I like that it's bloated beyond repair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on June 22, 2015, 08:02:10 PM
ITPOE Part 2>ITPOE Part 1
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on June 22, 2015, 09:06:11 PM
aside from anna lee and peruvian skies, FII is unlistenable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 22, 2015, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on June 22, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies and Hollow Years are excellent tunes. Just my 2 cents.

In fact, aside from You Not Me (which is not terrible, but not very good either), I would say the whole album is excellent. It took a long time to grow on me, but I now consider it one of my Top 3 DT albums, along with Six Degrees and Awake.

Completely agree on the bolded part. I rank it a very close 4 just behind IaW, although recently I'd even consider it ranking it above that. Such a beautiful and underrated album, and there are many aspects which I don't believe DT ever topped it before or since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on June 22, 2015, 10:21:45 PM
FII was the album that got me into DT, and NM was a ENORMOUS part of that.

LITS and TOT are overrated songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on June 22, 2015, 10:28:26 PM
Train of Thought is absolutely unlistenable for me unless I am in a certain specific mood. When I am it's a pretty solid album.

Vacant is my favorite song on the album, by the way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 23, 2015, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 22, 2015, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: Scorpion on June 22, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies and Hollow Years are excellent tunes. Just my 2 cents.

In fact, aside from You Not Me (which is not terrible, but not very good either), I would say the whole album is excellent. It took a long time to grow on me, but I now consider it one of my Top 3 DT albums, along with Six Degrees and Awake.

Completely agree on the bolded part. I rank it a very close 4 just behind IaW, although recently I'd even consider it ranking it above that. Such a beautiful and underrated album, and there are many aspects which I don't believe DT ever topped it before or since.

Yup, it is definitely in the top 5, and it has been rising steadily for me.

I think to me it's maybe that, because DT has been becoming more and more settled into their signature sound, FII stands out more and more as an album with "fresh wind". I also agree with whoever said that DT's ballads aren't what they used to be. Particularly Take Away My Pain is probably my favorite DT ballad, because it is beautifully understated and has a sweet melancholy to it they never recaptured after that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 23, 2015, 10:28:38 AM
Quote from: Scorpion on June 22, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: rumborak on June 22, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2015, 02:16:59 PM
Yeah. It took until Track 7 to get something worthy of the previous 2 records.

Hell's Kitchen, Peruvian Skies and Hollow Years are excellent tunes. Just my 2 cents.

In fact, aside from You Not Me (which is not terrible, but not very good either), I would say the whole album is excellent. It took a long time to grow on me, but I now consider it one of my Top 3 DT albums, along with Six Degrees and Awake.

I think the whole album is excellent as well. It's perhaps more different than anything but WDADU from the rest of the DT discography, but it really pulls off the sound it's going for most of the time.

And I like YNM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wizard of Thought on June 23, 2015, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on June 22, 2015, 10:28:26 PM
Train of Thought is absolutely unlistenable for me unless I am in a certain specific mood. When I am it's a pretty solid album.

Vacant is my favorite song on the album, by the way.

Lol, I think he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when you start mentioning Train of Thought, I actually really like it. It`s definitely on my top 4 albums, Honor my Father and Stream of Consciousness being my favourites. I`m not sure if any of this is controversial, but at least my appreciation for HTF might be somewhat unusual.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on June 23, 2015, 04:13:18 PM
 :lol I know he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when I read ToT the Thought of ToT arrived in my mind.







I'll show myself out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on June 26, 2015, 11:34:07 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on June 23, 2015, 04:13:18 PM
:lol I know he was referring to Trial of Tears, but when I read ToT the Thought of ToT arrived in my mind.







I'll show myself out.


I knew you were myself, and I'm the one that posted it.  No need to leave, obvious causality that seeing ToT made you think of the album!  ;) That's how this thread I thought works anyway, just constant spewing of views.


With that, another controversial opinion;
The intro, verses and choruses ruin The Ministry of Lost Souls. The only thing that makes it playable is the instrumental section, the vocal section that precedes it, and the ending solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on June 27, 2015, 07:44:41 AM
Nah

TMOLS is one of my favorite DT songs. Top 15 if not top 10.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: unrealxxx on June 27, 2015, 08:13:47 AM
I really love Chris' Collins singing. One of my favourite songs is You not me. I don't like medleys much, but I understand, that sometimes, there isn't enough time to play all those great long songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
Tough to think, as I love his enthusiasm and ability. But the band was getting to dark and heavy for me after SDOIT. I thought TOT was (pardon the pun) a train wreck. Every release after was not to my liking. I actually just stuck to the first 6 (6.5 if you include Change of Seasons) albums and was almost done with them. Then I recently heard the last 2 releases. ADTOE and DT12 are both pretty dang good. It's like something changed and they went for the more melodic sound instead of the more heavy/dark stuff.
Don't get me wrong, there is a song or 2 on those 4 bad albums I can like...
Not blaming MP in any way, I just think maybe there was a spark or change in mood after he left? I don't know. But whatever it is, I am eagerly awaiting the next release. Something I have not done in a long time with my favorite band  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that. And,  I realize some became fans during those 4 LPs prior to ADTOE. Not taking anything away from them, glad you are on board.. To me there was that dramatic feeling missing. I found that, again, in songs like Illumination Theory, and Breaking All Illusions. Something that was missing from the band (or had gone astray), prior to MM. And I am glad they are back. I will take the "new" DT. I have fought through personnel changes before.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on June 28, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
MP leaving the band was a good thing?
On this message board, I wouldn't call that a controversial opinion - lots of people would agree with you.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on his leaving. I agree that I didn't like the overall direction the albums were going in, in terms of heaviness - especially the pseudo cookie-monster vocals. But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that. And,  I realize some became fans during those 4 LPs prior to ADTOE. Not taking anything away from them, glad you are on board.. To me there was that dramatic feeling missing. I found that, again, in songs like Illumination Theory, and Breaking All Illusions. Something that was missing from the band (or had gone astray), prior to MM. And I am glad they are back. I will take the "new" DT. I have fought through personnel changes before.


I'm one of those people  ;D, but the great thing for me was that it made Dream Theater so much more accessible for me, normally I would never get into this kind of music because I'm more of a metal guy, but Train of Thought and a few other heavy songs like Panic Attack made it possible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on June 28, 2015, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM

 But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.


Well said Scotty.  ;D

It's tough for me to balance things. I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving. But the stuff that MP did for the band, his backing vocals (backing vocals, not lead or most of the call and response), and attitude towards live playing are things I dearly miss. His interaction as well with the DT faithful, although towards the end and after it was too much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on June 28, 2015, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: CableX on June 28, 2015, 09:52:21 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2015, 03:09:11 PM

 But there has been so much lost since he left the band that his absence continues to be felt and will be by myself and other fans. Not that I don't still like DT or even consider them my favorite band (they still are), but they no longer stand out as something "especially special" like they used to.


Well said Scotty.  ;D

It's tough for me to balance things. I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving. But the stuff that MP did for the band, his backing vocals (backing vocals, not lead or most of the call and response), and attitude towards live playing are things I dearly miss. His interaction as well with the DT faithful, although towards the end and after it was too much.

I also like that JM resurgence, I've always loved his lyrics, also the mix in the last album was awesome but it wasn't enough for me to like it, I'm not very fond of DT12. And as far as Portnoy goes, his presence playing live is the thing I miss the most.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on June 28, 2015, 11:32:00 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 05:14:49 PM
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that.

Do you even have the slightest idea what grunge is?


I wouldn't say I want MP back at this point by any means, because just shoving in an old member isn't going to recreate the same dynamic (just as bringing back KM wouldn't result in another IaW), but I miss many of his contribution more over time.
I think MM is a fantastic guy, and he's an incredible technical drummer, but his style doesn't work as well with the band for me personally as MP's did, and the last two albums are not ones I ever listen to. It's not just that MM's style is different to MP, because that's to be expected and wanted, but the way MP's style complemented the rest of the band grounded the music to me, and I think is a part of why DT were my anomaly in the prog genre. I don't feel that so much any more.

I'll avoid the DTF trigger words as far as MM goes, and just leave it at different strokes. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on June 29, 2015, 07:22:41 AM
For the longevity of the band, MM was clearly the best choice, since he doesn't seem to be a very assertive guy and thus molded himself to the band. Musically that same thing worked against them though, IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on June 29, 2015, 10:35:07 AM
Once in a LIVEtime is friggin' amazing. Sure, JLB has one of his worst nights ever, but man this concert rocked. That Freebird jam in Take the Time, the Metallica riff in Peruvian Skies, the extended jam session in Just Let Me Breathe ... so much win! If I ever go to see DT again I wish they would play around and have FUN like they did that night in Paris '98.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 29, 2015, 12:39:16 PM
Glad you agree but there's one little thing I take issue with:
Quote from: CableX on June 28, 2015, 09:52:21 PM
I love JM's resurgence so to speak in his playing, and his lyrics. The later is a direct MP thing, the former is what I suspect. And both are a product of MP leaving.
While it's evident that JM's stepped up to the plate more than on the last several MP-era albums, I think it's improper to assert that this was all because of MP. Unless you were around the band in the studio for most of the time, you don't know how much of JM's lack of participation was due to MP and due to his own quiet personality. Now I'm not saying that it's not possible that MP could've been over-bearing which caused JM to clam up while MP was in the band, but it's equally likely that the rest of the guys in the band told JM that they need to prove something w/o MP, so he needs to step up to the plate more now to make the band more united than before. No one knows for certain, so let's not just assume that it was all MP's fault.

In fact people had brought up the issue about the lack of JM lyrics in interviews they did with MP, and MP himself said he tried to encourage JM to write some lyrics, but he didn't. So it's not as if MP was trying to cut JM out of the lyric writing - just the opposite is true.

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).
 
 
Quote from: JLa on June 29, 2015, 10:35:07 AM
Once in a LIVEtime is friggin' amazing. Sure, JLB has one of his worst nights ever, but man this concert rocked. That Freebird jam in Take the Time, the Metallica riff in Peruvian Skies, the extended jam session in Just Let Me Breathe ... so much win! If I ever go to see DT again I wish they would play around and have FUN like they did that night in Paris '98.
While OiaL isn't JL's best performance, I think a lot of people exaggerate how bad his performance was that night. But yeah, I agree that this particular show was awesome. It's a shame that the "fun" factor of shows from this era are gone and likely will never come back. One interesting thing to note about OiaL too is that there weren't any overdubs at all - this comes from JL's mouth at the Aug 4, 1998 show (which I just listened to recently). So it's warts n' all, which should keep some of the purists happy (those that insist that live albums not be touched up in the studio whatsoever).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on June 29, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
I always thought James sounded great on OiaL. Not perfect of course but I liked the sound of it. His tone was still "meaty" and full while the aggressiveness was also there, even though it felt like he was forcing it quite a bit. I've heard quite a few shows from that era, he definitely had a lot worse nights than that (like the official bootleg where he sang with Ray Alder, who also had a terrible performance on that show).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on June 30, 2015, 10:56:37 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 29, 2015, 12:39:16 PM

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).


Knowing MP doing so much work for the band, it's safe to guess that the conversation went like this;

MP: dude, I'm tired of re-writing JMs lyrics. With KM and you, it was alright. But it's just me and you.
JP: ok Mike, that's fine.
JR: I don't write lyrics, so of course you are right MP!
JLB: *in Canada*
JM: *silence*
MP: it's settled then, we need lyrics in a song format JM. JP and I are already writing almost all the lyrics, let alone re-writing them.

Doesn't anyone doubt that JP just passively agreed? Why else would all of sudden, when MP is gone, JP helps JM with lyrics again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 30, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
"Re-writing" lyrics was never an issue, as far as I know.  The issue was having to write a vocal melody and figure out phrasing for somebody else's lyrics.  But even so, I'm not so sure it was Mike heavily pushing the issue and JP passively going along with it as you suggest.  That really isn't JP's personality.  Mike may have (and "may" is the correct word, because we really don't know) been the one to initiate it, but I have a hard time believing he pushed it hard and everyone just passively gave in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 30, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
I have something to say.

And I hardly ever have anything negative to say about DT but...

I am surprisingly (to me) disinterested in the fact that they are even touring right now. The setlist is extremely meh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on June 30, 2015, 05:27:44 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 30, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
I have something to say.

And I hardly ever have anything negative to say about DT but...

I am surprisingly (to me) disinterested in the fact that they are even touring right now. The setlist is extremely meh.

Well, I'm just a bit surprised by how little they advertise it. I mean, yeah, you get your standard "here's where we'll be" post by DT official, but I'm really not seeing much of, "So awesome to be on tour with the guys right now!" and stuff like that, that they'd post to their social media in the past. I'm hoping it's nothing, but man, I miss the "here's James LaBrie on a forklift video" side of DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 30, 2015, 05:31:13 PM
Yeah, maybe that's it. I mean they've had plenty of summer tours in Europe before an album release and just seeing what the setlist was was very exciting. I was interested for sure, but not really psyched like I usually am. Perhaps a new track would help.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RJ86 on June 30, 2015, 05:44:33 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on June 28, 2015, 11:32:00 PM
Quote from: RJ86 on June 28, 2015, 05:14:49 PM
I agree, pretty much. I always thought of DT as heavy metal orchestra. But for some reason, after SDOIT, they became a grunge band with a keyboard player. Not really sure how to explain it better than that.

Do you even have the slightest idea what grunge is?


I wouldn't say I want MP back at this point by any means, because just shoving in an old member isn't going to recreate the same dynamic (just as bringing back KM wouldn't result in another IaW), but I miss many of his contribution more over time.
I think MM is a fantastic guy, and he's an incredible technical drummer, but his style doesn't work as well with the band for me personally as MP's did, and the last two albums are not ones I ever listen to. It's not just that MM's style is different to MP, because that's to be expected and wanted, but the way MP's style complemented the rest of the band grounded the music to me, and I think is a part of why DT were my anomaly in the prog genre. I don't feel that so much any more.

I'll avoid the DTF trigger words as far as MM goes, and just leave it at different strokes. :tup
Yeah, okay.. Grunge was probably not the right word. But you should be able to decipher where I was heading with my comment.

Whatever sparked the change in their music after MP left, I  (personally) am glad it happened.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on June 30, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
That is indeed one of the least exciting setlists as far as my tastes go. I mean the first half is great, but once Constant Motion kicks in the rest of it is very strange, including the bizarre choice of Behind the Veil as an encore. Good thing is, there's one show where you don't have to feel bad at all about leaving early if you want to beat traffic out of the venue  :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on June 30, 2015, 07:57:23 PM
Quote from: Skeever on June 30, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
-SPOILERS-

I am 99% sure this is in the wrong thread
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 30, 2015, 08:15:51 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 29, 2015, 12:39:16 PM

And as for the stipulation that the band had made to JM about how lyrics were to be submitted, yes MP was the one who explained to the public that the band was tired of having to re-write JM's lyrics into song form. But that doesn't mean that MP was the one (or the only one) who came up with the stipulation that JM couldn't just submit lyrics in poetic form any more. Curiously enough, the first lyric that JM did submit was for BAI, but it's interesting to note that JP is listed as co-author - likely because he had to re-write JM's words into song format and took credit for it, unlike in year's past (altho admittedly that is purely speculation on my part).
 
 

JP talked about this in an interview shortly after the album was released.  JM insisted on giving JP a writing credit. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 01, 2015, 04:39:48 AM
I'm still here posting on the forum, so thatkinda contradicts what I'm about to say, but this is the least I've been interested in DT since I became a fan. I kinda like the new setlist, but then we know it's going to remain like this for the rest of the tour...click tracks time the show to perfection, James sounding strange at the start of the tour then steadily improving. Been there, done that, tired of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on July 01, 2015, 05:31:07 AM
Quote from: Lucien on June 30, 2015, 07:57:23 PM
Quote from: Skeever on June 30, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
-SPOILERS-

I am 99% sure this is in the wrong thread
No, I'm agreeing with TAC a few posts up. Guess I should have quoted him. Thanks for your concern  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on July 01, 2015, 10:05:16 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 01, 2015, 04:39:48 AM
I'm still here posting on the forum, so thatkinda contradicts what I'm about to say, but this is the least I've been interested in DT since I became a fan. I kinda like the new setlist, but then we know it's going to remain like this for the rest of the tour...click tracks time the show to perfection, James sounding strange at the start of the tour then steadily improving. Been there, done that, tired of it.

I was excited by anything DT related until I heard BC&SL, then MP went, ADTOE was good I liked it, then they did DT12...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on July 02, 2015, 06:40:56 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

I put it right besides BC&SL at the bottom
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 02, 2015, 06:52:01 PM
That is crazy talk. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on July 02, 2015, 07:01:43 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

I agree with you. For me it's up there with Images & Words, Six Degrees and Scenes! But I think a lot of the criticism I've seen about it seems to be more about the production than the actual music. It appears to be generally considered an average DT album, which I guess is not such a bad place to be after 12 albums!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 08:23:53 PM
I don't think I'd put it up there with I&W, Scenes, or Six Degrees (the three of those along with Awake are essentially my 'Big Four' for DT), but it's still very enjoyable to me.

While the production does get a lot of flak (reasonably so), I have seen a lot of criticism regarding the song-writing as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 02, 2015, 08:40:53 PM
Quote from: CDrice on July 02, 2015, 07:01:43 PM

It appears to be generally considered an average DT album, which I guess is not such a bad place to be after 12 albums!


Yup, that my view. Behind The Veil shuffled on the other day, and I was like alright, I'll play the album. So I cycled through the songs, going through each one thinking eh, this one is pretty good, so is this one and so on. Nothing was like I need to hear this song, that song and so on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 02, 2015, 09:12:32 PM
Quote from: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

I think it's probably a top 5 album, but top 3, not likely.

Another controversy opinion in a similar vein: FII may well be a top 3 album and is definitely a top 5 album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on July 03, 2015, 12:00:11 AM
Amen, brother. FII is shit on far too often, aside from YNM (which isn't bad, just kinda there), it's awesome all the way through.

My holy trinity: Six Degrees - Awake - FII
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 03, 2015, 01:59:22 AM
Already said it in a previous thread but - my *un*-holy trinity.

10. Systematic Chaos
11. Awake
12. When Dream And Day Unite.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on July 03, 2015, 04:28:25 AM
Quote from: de_fromage on July 02, 2015, 06:40:56 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: IdoSC on July 02, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
Judging by that other thread about "The Holy Trinity", it seems like this is an unpopular opinion: I think DT12 is a top 3 (possibly top 2) DT album ::)

Unpopular for sure. Maybe it's just me, but retrospective opinions on the album seem to be pretty lukewarm at best. I think it's well within the top half of their discography for me.

I put it right besides BC&SL at the bottom
I agree with the latter half of your post, BCSL deserves to be at the dead bottom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on July 03, 2015, 07:12:03 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 08:23:53 PM
While the production does get a lot of flak (reasonably so), I have seen a lot of criticism regarding the song-writing as well.

A Dream Theater album receiving criticism for a reason or another... it seems pretty much the same as most of their other albums to me  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 03, 2015, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: CDrice on July 03, 2015, 07:12:03 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 02, 2015, 08:23:53 PM
While the production does get a lot of flak (reasonably so), I have seen a lot of criticism regarding the song-writing as well.

A Dream Theater album receiving criticism for a reason or another... it seems pretty much the same as most of their other albums to me  :lol
Yeah, really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on July 03, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
the problem with dt12 is tha.... zzzz....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shine on July 03, 2015, 04:36:01 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 03, 2015, 01:59:22 AM
11. Awake

bruh   :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 03, 2015, 04:42:38 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on July 03, 2015, 05:20:03 PM
unholy trinity?

awake
FII
WDADU

and that's real easy for me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on July 03, 2015, 06:35:28 PM
Unholy

BC&SL
ADTOE
WDADU


Holy

Six Degrees

Awake/8VM
SFAM

Can't decide on the second place there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 03, 2015, 06:40:46 PM
Unholy trinity is obviously

10. When Dream and Day Unite
11. Systematic Chaos
12. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on July 03, 2015, 06:56:55 PM
No, the unholiest one:

BC
&SL
DT12

And that's it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on July 03, 2015, 09:22:25 PM
i refuse to take part in the Unholy discussion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 03, 2015, 10:23:00 PM
WDADU, DT12, ADTOE.

If I deleted those albums, it would be no loss to my music listening.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on July 03, 2015, 10:26:00 PM
Black Clouds, SC and WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on July 03, 2015, 11:00:06 PM
WDADU, BC&SL, DT12

e z
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on July 04, 2015, 02:41:28 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on July 03, 2015, 09:22:25 PM
i refuse to take part in the Unholy discussion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on July 04, 2015, 04:38:51 AM
Again, my opinion quoted the other thread:
10. TOT
11. SC
12. BCSL

Honestly I still definitely like TOT, and either like or feeling neutral about half of SC and BCSL. There are a few moments, and a LOT of moments I hate about both of the last 2 albums, but I wouldn't go as far as saying I could ignore BCSL entirely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 04, 2015, 08:43:58 AM
10: WDaDU
11: SC
12: FII
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on July 04, 2015, 08:49:14 AM
Bottom 3 rankings for me  :


10. BCSL/SFAM (tie)



11. SC
12. ToT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CharlesPL on July 04, 2015, 09:35:58 AM
10.ToT



11. BC&SL




12. SC
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 04, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. When Day and Dream Unite

Easily.

Honestly, the only song of these I couldn't live without would be The Count of Tuscany.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 04, 2015, 03:55:24 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 03, 2015, 06:40:46 PM

12. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Opinions and all that but...... :rollin. DAFUQ MANG


I'm all for opinions but do you really dislike SDOIT more than WDADU ?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 04, 2015, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 04, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. When Day and Dream Unite

Easily.

Honestly, the only song of these I couldn't live without would be The Count of Tuscany.

haha yeah. if you could somehow have the last 3 minutes of The Best Of Times in The Count Of Tuscany - that would be the only song from Black Clouds I would listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: de_fromage on July 04, 2015, 08:39:42 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 04, 2015, 03:55:24 PM
Quote from: 425 on July 03, 2015, 06:40:46 PM

12. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Opinions and all that but...... :rollin. DAFUQ MANG


I'm all for opinions but do you really dislike SDOIT more than WDADU ?

WDADU shouldn't even be in the last ones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pax on July 05, 2015, 03:16:43 AM
My controversial opinion: I dislike The Count of Tuscany, and Octavarium as an album (although the song is my favourite, the album is meh)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 05, 2015, 04:13:50 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 04, 2015, 10:26:52 AM
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. When Day and Dream Unite
Same here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on July 05, 2015, 08:38:38 AM
It has been a sad couple of days for Systematic Chaos   :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:17:15 AM
Octavarium (the song) could have actually been great if it was 12 minutes long. And why did they leave that lisp or whatever it is in the end of James "screaming" Octavarium? It's like scratching a chalk board every time I hear it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on July 05, 2015, 09:28:22 AM
Quote from: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:17:15 AM
Octavarium (the song) could have actually been great if it was 12 minutes long. And why did they leave that lisp or whatever it is in the end of James "screaming" Octavarium? It's like scratching a chalk board every time I hear it.

I can't hear whatever it is you're talking about at the end of Intervals.
Also Octavarium is perfect as it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 05, 2015, 10:09:06 AM
I have some opinions that I think are uncommon for the average DT fan.

My least favorite DT albums are I&W and SFAM. It's hard to put into words what it is about those albums that doesnt appeal to me so much. On I&W I really like Another Day, Surrounded and and Wait For Sleep. Other than that, I think it might be that that the rest of the songs are TOO proggy for me... There's too much wankery' for my taste, which is why I prefer albums like Awake and 8VM.  The same goes for SFAM, other then a few songs and sections.

And although I see ADToE as pretty much the same a!bium as I&W, I actually do like it a lot. Because it's a modern production its more metal than I&W. Plus it has Bridges In The Sky, whereas I&W does not. There's just something about I&W that is just very boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on July 05, 2015, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on July 05, 2015, 09:28:22 AM
Quote from: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:17:15 AM
Octavarium (the song) could have actually been great if it was 12 minutes long. And why did they leave that lisp or whatever it is in the end of James "screaming" Octavarium? It's like scratching a chalk board every time I hear it.

I can't hear whatever it is you're talking about at the end of Intervals.
Also Octavarium is perfect as it is.

The last "Trapped inside thith Octavarium(worst scream he's done)".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 05, 2015, 09:11:45 PM
Quote from: abydos on July 05, 2015, 10:46:19 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on July 05, 2015, 09:28:22 AM
Quote from: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:17:15 AM
Octavarium (the song) could have actually been great if it was 12 minutes long. And why did they leave that lisp or whatever it is in the end of James "screaming" Octavarium? It's like scratching a chalk board every time I hear it.

I can't hear whatever it is you're talking about at the end of Intervals.
Also Octavarium is perfect as it is. 

James thends to spell "th" plenty of times, lol, I don't see how is that an issue.
Just hear some of their pre-2000 albums and you'll be pretty surprised.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
Where? Even if that's the case, it hasn't been a problem until this part because it's so obvious and bad. And he doesn't do it live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 05, 2015, 09:43:21 PM
I'm not hearing a problem. I'd guess it's a combination of slight low pass filtering and cheap speakers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 05, 2015, 09:46:35 PM
Edit: Idk what happened lol, pretend nothing happened, nothing at all..
Anywhoo, yeah, sometimes when I use one of these cheap headphones they give you at buses, you hear things a lot differently, specially the S and drums for the most part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:51:10 PM
It's not that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 05, 2015, 09:53:48 PM
Quote from: abydos on July 05, 2015, 09:51:10 PM
It's not that.

I've never denied that Labrie does spell TH at some parts, as well as some really frenchized E's, I'm just agreeing with Blob that with a poor quality sound you do hear stuff a lot differently.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on July 06, 2015, 11:05:51 AM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.

IMO, the credit that DT very well deserves, is that they are THE BEST band on their style, since they appeared until now. I can´t think of another prog band (metal OR traditional) that can say that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on July 06, 2015, 12:06:19 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.

Personal opinions on the band aside, Dream Theater were very much influential in the world of progressive metal.

Arguing that they weren't pioneers in progressive rock, on the other hand, is like arguing that Taylor Swift didn't invent death metal; you're arguing against a point that no one has made.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 06, 2015, 12:20:07 PM
Have you actually listened to Taylor Swift?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 06, 2015, 12:21:02 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.

DT should get credit more on the progressive metal side.  Rush and Yes more on the progressive rock side.  As far as heavier guitars go, Awake has heavier riffs than SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 06, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.
OK.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 06, 2015, 01:18:57 PM
DT took a completely new, much more technical, angle to prog that none of the previous prog bands had ever attempted (or even were capable of). Previous prog was much more driven by ideas, concepts and imagery, with a precise execution not being too necessary. DT really took the level of musicianship to a new level and ran with it.

At the same time, said focus on musicianship probably singlehandedly created all those terrible prog bands that just noodle with no rhyme or reason.
So, err, thanks DT for creating this new genre, and thanks for ruining it :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on July 06, 2015, 01:21:46 PM
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern progressive metal band that hasn't been influenced by Dream Theater in some way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on July 06, 2015, 01:40:12 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 06, 2015, 01:18:57 PM
DT took a completely new, much more technical, angle to prog that none of the previous prog bands had ever attempted (or even were capable of). Previous prog was much more driven by ideas, concepts and imagery, with a precise execution not being too necessary. DT really took the level of musicianship to a new level and ran with it.

At the same time, said focus on musicianship probably singlehandedly created all those terrible prog bands that just noodle with no rhyme or reason.
So, err, thanks DT for creating this new genre, and thanks for ruining it :lol

you  can't blame DT for that!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on July 06, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 06, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.
OK.
*listens to The Mirror*

yeah wow DT weren't heavy at all until SFAM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on July 06, 2015, 01:55:29 PM
Quote from: Parama on July 06, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 06, 2015, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.
OK.
*listens to The Mirror*

yeah wow DT weren't heavy at all until SFAM

Yeah, I think the more modern production might play a role into thinking the albums got heavier with Scenes. Because when you just look at the music, Scenes is not that heavier on the heaviness than their previous albums.

And looking at all the modern prog bands that cite DT has an influence, even if you don't think they've brought anything new, I think they deserve the credit they receive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on July 06, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Agreed about the production and not sounding heavy.  Images and Words on the album does not sound terribly heavy, but go watch some of those songs live or even the remixed ones for the best of album, those sound heavier.  The music was definitely always heavy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 06, 2015, 02:27:09 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on July 06, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Agreed about the production and not sounding heavy.  Images and Words on the album does not sound terribly heavy, but go watch some of those songs live or even the remixed ones for the best of album, those sound heavier.  The music was definitely always heavy.
Yup, they were always heavy.

When people ask me to describe DT, I always refer to them as the heavy metal version of Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on July 06, 2015, 02:32:00 PM
As others said, they don't really get credit for pioneering Progressive Rock, but rather for pioneering Progressive Metal - blending the 2 genres and complementing it in different ways. Personal opinion ahoy: WDADU sounds very much like what you just described, "Yes/Ruch kind of Prog Rock with heavy guitars", but even that one has a few moments (or whole songs, like Afterlife) that wouldn't normally come from a pure Prog Rock band, and they definitely added a new layer of technical showmanship to the genre.

Images and Words, again, to me, is the definition of what Dream Theater gets credit for. This is in many ways a late 80s Glam Metal album, but it blends perfectly with instrumental breaks, time signature changes and irregularity, and while it has the distinct sound that makes me love Scorpions or Iron Maiden for example, it also never stops surprising the listener (well, on the first 30 listens or so, then it wears off).

Following albums have done the same thing, always slightly changing their influences from both Metal and Prog Rock and blending them in beautiful ways. The Mirror sounds like something that would come from early Metallica or some heavier band than that, yet they play on that riff and tear it apart and tackle it in different ways like a Prog Rock normally does with much more mellow music. The same happens in certain sections of 6:00, Caught in a Web, etc. Voices was one of the earliest examples (along with Take the Time and Metropolis I guess) where besides blending two genres into a single piece and playing with individual riffs, they also mixed completely different styles in 2 or more sections of the same song and challenged themselves to transition between them as well as they could (which they could beautifully, big time).

I am no musician so my opinion might be worthless, but to me DT was the first to play around with 2 rather distant genres and see how they could bring them together in harmony. For the first half a dozen albums they basically took different sub-genres of each big inspiration and played "Will it blend?" with themselves, creating beautiful ideas and songs. This kickstarted both the kind of distinct sound of them that so many bands try to directly imitate, but also the whole principle of bringing these two worlds in harmony - so that other bands could take on different subgenres, the way Muse takes the experimental nature of Prog and Metal and creates an even bigger beautiful mess, or how Opeth brought that style together with death metal and brought them to complement each other in ways that people other than myself could possibly appreciate and like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 06, 2015, 02:37:22 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on July 06, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Agreed about the production and not sounding heavy.  Images and Words on the album does not sound terribly heavy, but go watch some of those songs live or even the remixed ones for the best of album, those sound heavier.  The music was definitely always heavy.

It's also worth pointing out that what is now perceived as heavy is very different from what was perceived as heavy when Awake came out. Awake *was* their heavy album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on July 06, 2015, 02:46:50 PM
I smell a troll in this thread...

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on July 06, 2015, 03:24:02 PM
awake still sounds pretty heavy at times to me lol
parts of CiaW, Erotomania,Voices, Scarred, and most of The Mirror and Lie especially
The Mirror is still their heaviest song imo and I love it
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on July 06, 2015, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2015, 02:27:09 PM

When people ask me to describe DT, I always refer to them as the heavy metal version of Yes.
That's JP's version as well, albeit I'd much sooner think of them as the metal version of Kansas. Kansas could rock out (just like DT and unlike Yes), but they also had a sophisticated, technical and often epic prog side, in similar proportions to DT. They also had their fair share of iconic - and sometimes a bit cheesy - ballads, again, very much like DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 06, 2015, 05:48:25 PM
Hey, at least DT stays away from the hippie lyrics :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 06, 2015, 05:50:12 PM
Quote from: NotePad on July 06, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
Dream Theater gets too much credit in the progressive rock/metal world. Bands like Rush and especially Yes were doing the same thing long before they came around. DT just added some heavier guitars, and I'd argue even that didnt really happen until they did Scenes From A Memory.

You can argue that all you want, but you would be dead wrong. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 06, 2015, 05:51:07 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 06, 2015, 05:48:25 PM
Hey, at least DT stays away from the hippie lyrics :lol

My cousin and brother call thse lyrics, "The Jon Anderson Fa La, La, La La's." :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 07, 2015, 08:53:04 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on July 06, 2015, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2015, 02:27:09 PM

When people ask me to describe DT, I always refer to them as the heavy metal version of Yes.
That's JP's version as well, albeit I'd much sooner think of them as the metal version of Kansas. Kansas could rock out (just like DT and unlike Yes), but they also had a sophisticated, technical and often epic prog side, in similar proportions to DT. They also had their fair share of iconic - and sometimes a bit cheesy - ballads, again, very much like DT.
I agree with you 100%.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 07, 2015, 08:10:39 PM
^

I use MP's version, of putting Metallica, Pink Floyd and Rush into a blender. I find most know those three bands. But I agree with this one more than the Yes one. JM hasn't taken a Chris Squire type role except on the first album, so the orchestration that Yes is brilliant for is a little different in DT IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on July 08, 2015, 05:13:15 AM
I think Kansas is the right comparison. I love Yes and Dream Theater both but honestly I don't think DT really compare to Yes. Yes were a step ahead of there peers in so many ways. They did a lot that would still be considered really out there by today's standards, and there was a whole philosophy so to speak that went with their music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
Quote from: CableX on July 07, 2015, 08:10:39 PM
I use MP's version, of putting Metallica, Pink Floyd and Rush into a blender.
I typically will use a similar description - swapping Yes in for PF. But then I usually mention there's also bits of the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Muse, Radiohead, Slayer, Iron Maiden and a whole host of other bands mixed in too.

As for the Kansas comparison, I'm not really familiar with their stuff outside their hits, and in this day and age, I don't think many other people are. Unlike Metallica, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes and other bands, Kansas is nowhere near as well known.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 08:21:14 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
As for the Kansas comparison, I'm not really familiar with their stuff outside their hits, and in this day and age, I don't think many other people are. Unlike Metallica, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes and other bands, Kansas is nowhere near as well known.
Maybe not quite to those bands levels, but Kansas is pretty well known.  They have had 5 albums go platinum, and another four go gold, along with multiple songs on the singles charts.

Go listen to some Kansas.  But preferably one of the first 5 albums.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 08:21:14 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
As for the Kansas comparison, I'm not really familiar with their stuff outside their hits, and in this day and age, I don't think many other people are. Unlike Metallica, Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes and other bands, Kansas is nowhere near as well known.
Maybe not quite to those bands levels, but Kansas is pretty well known.  They have had 5 albums go platinum, and another four go gold, along with multiple songs on the singles charts.

Go listen to some Kansas.  But preferably one of the first 5 albums.
Indeed. Moreover, Kansas was the only American prog rock band in the '70s that really mattered. Rush is huge nowadays, but they never had hits comparable to Carry On...  and Dust in the Wind. Kansas is also extremely consistent (another aspect where they're very similar to DT), their entire '70s output is stellar, while most other prog rock bands turned to shit in the second half of the decade.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on July 08, 2015, 10:00:17 AM
Leftoverture is one of my favorite albums of all time. 'nough said.  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 09:56:18 AM
Rush is huge nowadays, but they never had hits comparable to Carry On...  and Dust in the Wind.

Tom Sawyer?  Spirit of Radio?  Closer to the Heart? 

I agree with the general point that Kansas was in fact well-known and influential.  But to say that Rush's singles weren't comparable is off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 09:56:18 AM
Rush is huge nowadays, but they never had hits comparable to Carry On...  and Dust in the Wind.

Tom Sawyer?  Spirit of Radio?  Closer to the Heart? 

I agree with the general point that Kansas was in fact well-known and influential.  But to say that Rush's singles weren't comparable is off.
The word was "hits" bosky.  Those two songs by Kansas were huge, huge hit singles.

Rush has never had that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 08, 2015, 11:25:08 AM
Rush's highest chart topping single was #21 with New World Man in 1982.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 10:54:20 AM
The word was "hits" bosky. 

Right...and those songs I mentioned somehow weren't hits?  ???  (not to mention plenty of other songs by them)  I have never really cared for Rush at all.  But to argue that they never had hits is silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 11:46:40 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 11:42:17 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 10:54:20 AM
The word was "hits" bosky. 

Right...and those songs I mentioned somehow weren't hits?  ???  (not to mention plenty of other songs by them)  I have never really cared for Rush at all.  But to argue that they never had hits is silly.
Compared to "Carry On Wayward Son" or "Dust in the Wind" (which is what the comparison was)? 

No, Rush hasn't had hits like that.  Not sure where this discussion is even coming from, because it isn't one.

Rush has only had ONE US Top 40 hit - the aformentioned New World Man, which made it to # 21.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 11:57:11 AM
Not to continue derailing this thread, but I guess the point I was making about Kansas is that these days, many people (especially younger ones) aren't gonna know who Kansas are, outside of Carry On and Dust in the Wind, so to mention them would probably cause a lot of people to say "who?" whereas all those other bands are fairly recognizable today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 11:46:40 AM
No, Rush hasn't had hits like that.  Not sure where this discussion is even coming from, because it isn't one.

Rush has only had ONE US Top 40 hit - the aformentioned New World Man, which made it to # 21.

You're right.  There isn't a discussion.  Rush had TONS of hit singles.  That isn't really debatable.  But if we are now saying that ONLY the ones that made the top 40 in the U.S. count, then I will concede that arbitrary distinction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 12:21:50 PM
FFS bosky not sure where you get your determination of "hit" single.

Also, obviously I'm talking about the US, which is where we are located, and is the largest music market in the world. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OpenYourEyes311 on July 08, 2015, 12:34:47 PM
Rush US Mainstream Rock Tracks Chart (1981-1989):
Limelight - 4
Tom Sawyer - 8
New World Man - 1
Subdivisions - 8
Distant Early Warning - 3
The Big Money - 4
Time Stand Still - 3
Force Ten - 3
Show Don't Tell - 1

Kansas US Mainstream Rock Tracks Chart (1981-1989):
Play the Game Tonight - 4
Fight Fire With Fire - 3

Kansas had ONE top 10 hit on the Hot 100 (Dust in the Wind, #6, 1978). Carry On hit #11, with only two others in the top 20 (Play the Game Tonight [#17, 1982] and All I Wanted [#19, 1986])

Rush's highest on that chart, as previously noted, was New World Man at #21.


So it's arguable who had the bigger hits, but to say that Rush didn't have hits is laughable (two #1s on the Mainstream Chart in the 80s is all you need to know).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 08, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
Listen, I'm a huge Rush nut, but you left out the 70's and you have to take the full sample that their careers intertwined.

It's really hard to judge the radio hits.  Those who got a ton of airplay but was never released as a single.

That being said, Both Rush and Kansas had a huge influence on the members of DT as well as myself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 12:59:29 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 12:21:50 PM
FFS bosky not sure where you get your determination of "hit" single. 

I have always understood it to mean, essentially:

Quote from: Wikipedia
A hit single is a recorded song or instrumental released as a single that has become very popular. Though it sometimes means any widely played or big-selling song, the term "hit" usually refers to a single that has appeared in an official music chart through repeated radio airplay or significant commercial sales.

I have never in my life seen the term "hit single" limited to "top 10 single in the U.S." and do not know of anyone who uses the term that way today (present company excluded).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OpenYourEyes311 on July 08, 2015, 01:06:50 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on July 08, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
Listen, I'm a huge Rush nut, but you left out the 70's and you have to take the full sample that their careers intertwined.

It's really hard to judge the radio hits.  Those who got a ton of airplay but was never released as a single.

That being said, Both Rush and Kansas had a huge influence on the members of DT as well as myself.

I didn't, really. The Mainstream Rock Chart started in the 80's, and I noted that Kansas had 2 top 20 hits in the 70s, while Rush had none.

In any event... this all has nothing to do with DT, so backtoobscurityigoooooo
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 08, 2015, 01:08:55 PM
 :lol


I feel like I'm talking to Scooby Doo! :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 01:09:12 PM
I get where you are coming from, but I honestly don't think anyone really refers much to the Mainstream Rock Chart for anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 08, 2015, 01:12:37 PM
They have all these crazy charts and I'm on your side that rush was bigger on the radio but if they went be the official charts by Billboard, then Kansas did have more "hit" singles.  Rush was played way more on the radio though.  No big whoop, I was just putting in my few cents.  Doesn't really matter o me since both played a big part in DT and my own life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 01:20:25 PM
No one goes by that Mainstream chart.  The Billboard Hot 100 singles chart is what has always been used.

Further, the de facto standard in the US for, well, recorded memory has been the Top 40 of that chart, as Casey Kasem could tell you.

So that is the standard I'm using.  The one that the rest of America uses.

If you want to use something else, so be it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 08, 2015, 01:37:51 PM
To be fair though, rock almost never charts as high as pop (especially today), so if we're judging rock bands, I think referring to the rock charts would be more representative of the band's success. Dust in the Wind is a fairly straightforward ballad. Of course it's gonna chart higher on the hot 100 chart than a proggy song like Subdivisions. Simply put, Rush never wrote a crossover song like that so to compare their music to Dust in the Wind is unfair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on July 08, 2015, 01:40:47 PM
I think we're specifically considering the popularity of individual songs, though, so the metric in use makes complete sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on July 08, 2015, 01:37:51 PM
To be fair though, rock almost never charts as high as pop (especially today)
None of either band's most popular songs are current, but were released in the 70s and 80s when rock ruled the charts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
Since you brought it up earlier hef, while Kansas may have 5 platinum and 4 gold albums, Rush has 3 multi-platinum, 11 platinum and 10 gold albums. So while they may not have had the hit singles, their sales in general far exceeds that of Kansas, which I think means more than hit singles

Let's also not forget one other thing: Rush have *consistently* headlined tours in arenas and amphitheaters since the 70s. I imagine that Kansas hasn't done so headlining their own tour since the early 80s. So while Kansas may have been a household name in the 70s and even into the early 80s, 30 years on, not many people are gonna know who they are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on July 08, 2015, 02:14:25 PM
I think we all can agree Rush is the bigger and more recognizable band than Kansas... but Carry on is a much more well known song than any single Rush song from the general public perspective IMO.  And thats all it is, my opinion since I have no facts to base that on, just my experience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
Since you brought it up earlier hef, while Kansas may have 5 platinum and 4 gold albums, Rush has 3 multi-platinum, 11 platinum and 10 gold albums. So while they may not have had the hit singles, their sales in general far exceeds that of Kansas, which I think means more than hit singles.
Not sure it means more than hit singles to the average music listener.  Maybe, maybe not.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
Let's also not forget one other thing: Rush have *consistently* headlined tours in arenas and amphitheaters since the 70s. I imagine that Kansas hasn't done so headlining their own tour since the early 80s.
Sure, no question.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
So while Kansas may have been a household name in the 70s and even into the early 80s, 30 years on, not many people are gonna know who they are.
I disagree.

And the only thing this was about was singles. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OpenYourEyes311 on July 08, 2015, 02:29:44 PM
What it boils down to is that there's no way of knowing how they were viewed back then without actually being there right now. No one is living in the 70s and 80s right now, we all have our whole lives up to 2015. All that time clouds everyone's judgment as to who WAS bigger, when really we're thinking about who IS or HAS BEEN bigger, in our minds. To that end, not being a Kansas fan, I can name two songs that I've heard on the radio (the obvious two), but I can name at least five off the Rush list above that I've heard fairly recently. In fact, the only two Kansas singles that I ever hear anyone talking about are Carry On and Dust, whereas Rush has a whole plethora. I've only recently become a Rush fan, but even before that happened I could tell you many songs by Rush just from hearing them on the radio, and only the two by Kansas. Take that for what it's worth (which, admittedly, is not much).

EDIT: unsure if any of this makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TL on July 08, 2015, 03:13:53 PM
Quote
So that is the standard I'm using.  The one that the rest of America uses.
There are a lot of non-Americans here, so insisting that only US charts count for anything is a bit silly.
Especially when one of the bands we're talking about is Canadian.

In Canada (and this is on the overall radio chart, not specifically the rock one), Rush have several Top 10 hits, and a bunch in the Top 40. They even have a #1 with New World Man.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Wow, this got derailed. My point was (in conjunctoon with Hef) that Carry on Wayward Son was/is huge (Dust in the Wind to a much lesser extent, of course). It's one of the biggest rock hits of all time, it has been featured in movies, TV shows (basically the Supernatural theme), and even people who are not rock fans recognize it instantly. Rush has nothing comparable to that, not even close.

Interesting thing about Rush is that apparently they're relatively obscure in the former eastern block. My father was a big prog fan in the '70s and he hasn't even heard about them. I know many people who have vintage vinyls from that period, there's an abundance of Yes, ELP, Floyd, Genesis, but no Rush. Maybe it was easier for British bands to penetrate this market than for Canadians, who knows. Also, even after the fall of the Iron Curtain, the relentlessly touring Rush never played in Eastern Europe (except I think the Czech Rep.). Wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 08, 2015, 08:39:46 PM
I remember when Pull Me Under hit it big on the radio, a few friends of mine at the time thought they sounded a lot like Iron Maiden because of the guitar sound.

Then, several other friends thought they were Metallica wannabes when I played them Peruvian Skies for them in 1997/1998-ish.  My fault for using that song as their intro to DT. :facepalm: :lol

As for me, and I have told this story before, the first time I heard Dream Theater, I thought they sounded like a ballsier and more rocking...Europe.  For real.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2015, 08:45:42 PM
Mine was "heavy metal Genesis". I guess it's all about where you come from.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 08, 2015, 08:49:40 PM
I can see that, but I didn't get into 70s era Genesis until the late 90s/early 00s, and by then I had already been a DT fan for a while.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on July 08, 2015, 08:50:04 PM
Quote from: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Wow, this got derailed. My point was (in conjunctoon with Hef) that Carry on Wayward Son was/is huge (Dust in the Wind to a much lesser extent, of course). It's one of the biggest rock hits of all time, it has been featured in movies, TV shows (basically the Supernatural theme), and even people who are not rock fans recognize it instantly. Rush has nothing comparable to that, not even close.


I always thought that Tom Sawyer was instantly recognizable in the same vein. However, I've lived my entire life in Ohio which has always been pretty strong "Rush Country", so my view on this might be colored by that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 10:49:40 PM
Let's keep in mind the whole reason why this Rush vs. Kansas derailment happened - because some are saying that DT is like a heavy metal version of Kansas. While that may be the closest description (as I said, I don't know enough Kansas to say either way), many people won't be familiar with the band outside of 2 songs to really have an idea of what DT's music is really encompassing.

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 02:25:09 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 08, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
So while Kansas may have been a household name in the 70s and even into the early 80s, 30 years on, not many people are gonna know who they are.
I disagree.
And the only thing this was about was singles.
Yes it is about the singles, but also about how aware people are of their respective bands because of them. Those singles are 35+ years old now. Ask most 20-somethings who Kansas is and you'll get a blank stare. Ask the same people who Rush is, and I'll bet that more will respond with knowing who they are.

Quote from: OpenYourEyes311 on July 08, 2015, 02:29:44 PM
To that end, not being a Kansas fan, I can name two songs that I've heard on the radio (the obvious two), but I can name at least five off the Rush list above that I've heard fairly recently. In fact, the only two Kansas singles that I ever hear anyone talking about are Carry On and Dust, whereas Rush has a whole plethora. I've only recently become a Rush fan, but even before that happened I could tell you many songs by Rush just from hearing them on the radio, and only the two by Kansas. Take that for what it's worth (which, admittedly, is not much).

EDIT: unsure if any of this makes sense.
Thank you OYE311. It makes a lot of sense and helps verify the point I was trying to make. Doesn't matter who was a bigger/more popular band back in the 70s/80s. We're talking about familiarity today since we're comparing these bands to DT in an effort to describe what DT's sound is like.

And while those 2 Kansas tracks may have been hit singles, I'd wager they're hardly representative of the whole Kansas catalog. OTOH, with all the Rush songs that received (and still receive) airplay, such as Working Man, Fly By Night, 2112 (first 2 parts), Closer to the Heart, the Trees, The Spirit of Radio, Freewill, Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta, YYZ, Limelight, Subdivisions, New World Man, Time Stand Still and maybe a track or two later, there is much more for a person to use as a basis for how DT compares - of course there's a lot of styles/variety that a person won't know about Rush just based on these songs alone, but it's far more than just 2 Kansas songs.

Quote from: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Wow, this got derailed. My point was (in conjunctoon with Hef) that Carry on Wayward Son was/is huge (Dust in the Wind to a much lesser extent, of course). It's one of the biggest rock hits of all time, it has been featured in movies, TV shows (basically the Supernatural theme), and even people who are not rock fans recognize it instantly. Rush has nothing comparable to that, not even close.
Those two songs might be familiar to a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that they're gonna know that the band that did them is Kansas, nor will it give them a good idea of the wide variety of styles that both DT and (I'm guessing) Kansas have done. The number of Rush tracks that are regularly played and well known will give a much better idea.

Quote from: Sycsa on July 08, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Interesting thing about Rush is that apparently they're relatively obscure in the former eastern block. My father was a big prog fan in the '70s and he hasn't even heard about them. I know many people who have vintage vinyls from that period, there's an abundance of Yes, ELP, Floyd, Genesis, but no Rush. Maybe it was easier for British bands to penetrate this market than for Canadians, who knows. Also, even after the fall of the Iron Curtain, the relentlessly touring Rush never played in Eastern Europe (except I think the Czech Rep.). Wonder why that is.
This is actually a very interesting point - for some parts of the world, it would make more sense to compare DT to some bands rather than others, based on how familiar people generally are with them. So in a place like the former eastern block, comparing DT to Rush doesn't make sense. But in North America, western Europe and probably South America, it probably does moreso than Kansas.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 08, 2015, 11:02:22 PM
I think James should stop being a blondie
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2015, 11:14:33 PM
I find that over the years it has gotten more difficult to explain what makes DT different from a regular heavy metal band. It's leather clothes, black hair, fast guitar solos and soaring vocals for them these days, and that's really no different from mainstream metal.

And to stay in that spirit of the thread, I actually wish they'd close this metal chapter and move on, maybe to a more age-approporiate image. "Yukon Cornelius" JP was entertaining, but it's also somewhat silly, especially the current extent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 08, 2015, 11:19:42 PM
Concerning the debate about hit singles, I don't know a single song by either band. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2015, 05:44:11 AM
Quote from: rumborak on July 08, 2015, 11:14:33 PM
I find that over the years it has gotten more difficult to explain what makes DT different from a regular heavy metal band. It's leather clothes, black hair, fast guitar solos and soaring vocals for them these days, and that's really no different from mainstream metal.

And to stay in that spirit of the thread, I actually wish they'd close this metal chapter and move on, maybe to a more age-approporiate image. "Yukon Cornelius" JP was entertaining, but it's also somewhat silly, especially the current extent.

Maybe I don't listen to enough mainstream metal, but I am not familiar with any "mainstream" band that sounds anything like DT.  There are plenty of smaller prog metal bands that go after that DT sound though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 09, 2015, 05:53:20 AM
Scotty, I am confused by your point, which seems to be, "Most people don't know Kansas that well, so it is pointless to say that Dream Theater sounds a little like them."  I would never recommend Dream Theater to someone who isn't already a fan of either metal or prog, and most prog fans are going to know Kansas.

And it's funny that you say, "Ask most 20-somethings who Kansas is and you'll get a blank stare."  Change "20-somethings" to "people" and "Kansas" to "Dream Theater" and the sentence still works. :lol :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 09, 2015, 06:15:51 AM
I don't doubt that if you are talking about band name recognition, more 20-year olds may know Rush more than Kansas.

But ask about songs like Carry On or Dust in the Wind versus pretty much any Rush song, and Kansas wins that one.  Which is all I was saying.

I have no idea why this has gone on for so long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 09, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 08, 2015, 11:19:42 PM
Concerning the debate about hit singles, I don't know a single song by either band. :biggrin:

Snob. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 09, 2015, 08:22:42 AM
Booooooooooorinnnnnnnngggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Vandalism on July 09, 2015, 03:30:47 PM
My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on July 09, 2015, 04:16:35 PM
Quote from: Vandalism on July 09, 2015, 03:30:47 PM
My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.

You must be doing quite a bit of waiting then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on July 09, 2015, 06:07:44 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on July 09, 2015, 04:16:35 PM
Quote from: Vandalism on July 09, 2015, 03:30:47 PM
My controversial opinion is that most of the time (except I&W n Awake n ACOS) I am just bearing with JLB n waiting for the next cool part from the other four.

You must be doing quite a bit of waiting then.

Well considering how much James sings in comparison to how much he doesn't, he must not wait all that much... unless you're saying the other four never have cool parts. In this case that would be quite the controversial statement  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 09, 2015, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

Fair enough.  At least you can say you gave it a fair shot.  I am really curious to know how you feel about each of their other albums, and which ones you like vs. do not like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on July 09, 2015, 07:08:26 PM
My experience was quite different, I heard Awake first and honestly did not like it very much at all. Next I went for Images and Words and my first thought was "so THIS is the band everyone is raving about!"

I like both albums a lot now, though  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 09, 2015, 07:22:52 PM
Quote from: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I find that Awake, my favorite album, really connects with people who could connect with a lot of the songs based on personal experience. 6:00, for example, others find grating. But for people who experience bad days and dragging themselves to work, 6:00 perfectly captures the emotions. Scarred also captures mood swings, hate, despair, confusion. Which is why a lot find it a real great work of art. It's very honest.

I can imagine others not liking it, though, for being too honest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on July 09, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
I tend to like the darker sound (and darker side of art in general) of music a bit more since I often connect with it more. It's cathartic. Understandable how it might have the opposite effect on some people, though. Which is why Awake for me is just as good, if not better, with time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zecawolf on July 09, 2015, 07:50:31 PM
Quote from: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 09, 2015, 08:25:40 PM
So I got this strange feeling while hearing ACoS studio version.
Everytime James sings, my throat hurts, idk if it has something to do with the date being close to the posioning incident or what, but I feel a very annoying and painful sensation everytime he sings. As if he was doing a non-human effort to do that and it's just so excruciatingly painful.
The song isn't properly mixed, the drums are too low and the keyboard sometimes does unnecesary stuff that goes on for too long (such as in the very intro with that fantasy/flute/synth weird sound)

Personally, the LSFNY performance is so much much better on every aspect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2015, 10:44:44 PM
Quote from: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.

I bought I&W shortly after it came out and fell in love with DT.  Couldn't wait for them to come out with their next album, and I got Awake the day it came out.  I was really disappointed.  Really dark and depressing to me.  Kept the cd for a few years then traded it away.

I kept hearing from others how great of an album it is for so many years, so I thought I should give it another try.  I just purchased it earlier this year (2015).

And.....still don't like it.  Sorry.  Still dark and depressing to me.  I like it a little better than I originally did, but only ever so slightly.

I like you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on July 09, 2015, 11:09:39 PM
I was disappointed with just about every album by everyone after I&W  ;D 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 09, 2015, 11:11:35 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on July 09, 2015, 11:09:39 PM
I was disappointed with just about every album by everyone after I&W  ;D 

:lol At least we can agree on that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 10, 2015, 12:37:54 AM
Quote from: t-bone2112 on July 09, 2015, 05:18:01 PM
Ok, newbie here and very late to this discussion, but I really don't like Awake.



I like it, but I am with you in one regard with it not being a favorite, or top DT.

Quote from: erwinrafael on July 09, 2015, 07:22:52 PM
I find that Awake, my favorite album, really connects with people who could connect with a lot of the songs based on personal experience. 6:00, for example, others find grating. But for people who experience bad days and dragging themselves to work, 6:00 perfectly captures the emotions. Scarred also captures mood swings, hate, despair, confusion. Which is why a lot find it a real great work of art. It's very honest.

I can imagine others not liking it, though, for being too honest.


It's not that for me. The vocal melodies to me are not as strong as almost all the other albums, if not everyone but WDADU. And the more I listen to WDADU, the more I pick up on melodies. That doesn't happen with Awake for me. Things like 6:00, Lie, and LSOAD have no poppy/catchy vocal melodies to me vs. other DT output. DT can get ripped for modern albums, and anything after Awake. But it was not until the more straight-forward approach of FII, and them doing backing vocals, that I feel they cared more about easily accessible vocal melodies. That's not to say WDADU-Awake didn't have them, but not as prevalent as after Awake. I could name at least one song on every DT album since Awake that in my tastes, has a better vocal melody than anything on Awake.

JLB's aggressive vocals work in some songs (Scarred, CIAW), and fall flat in others I feel (Lie). And they work in Scarred and CAIW I think because of the contrast in these songs. This was not a problem on Train Of Thought, or even something like TDEN, because there is a balance of styles.

While I appreciate the production value and balancing/mastering, I do not like the mix and overall sound. The album sounds sterile and thin to me. And what really sucks is I LOVE Mesa Rectifier rhythm tone, but on this album it sounds like crap IMO blended with the Mark 4 (or 2/2c+?). I will take I&W and the triggers 10 times out of 10 over Awake, because otherwise I&W hits better for me. And the mix is more to my taste.

Lyrically, I agree 100%. This IMO is the pinnacle of DT lyric writing. I have a different interpretation of Scarred, but a similar view on mood. I will have to listen to 6:00, never picked up on that. Voices, Scarred, LSOAD and SDV are all things I can relate to. Yet were written so well, they do stand out as great, poetic lyrics. And because of Voices and LSOAD's lyrics, I can get through the songs because they are at the top of the great DT lyric list. This actually doesn't support my point about vocal melodies, as I feel the great lyrics didn't make way for more accessible vocals. I believe often that simpler lyrics=catchy vocal melodies. So maybe they sacrificed melodies for lyrics, as every member was a confirmed part of writing them.

I do not get the full dark mood. Darker than some of their albums yes, but over the whole discography, I don't agree. This to me was an opinion pre TOT. But up to now, plenty of their songs hit dark moments, and instrumentally are as dark if not darker. WDADU leaves me a dark feel often, if not times more. FIL, KH, LFAGA & TOWHTSTS all are as dark to me as anything on Awake. TOT is on par with Awake, SC is due to the lyrical nature, and 6DOIT to a degree, pun intended. There are enough contrasting moods in the songs on Awake to make me see plenty of bright sides. IF and SM never have given me a dark feel, and without the instrumental part of LSOAD, that song would also be brighter to me. Voices, taking out the intro and "Thought Disorder" section sounds not dark to me.

Awake is just a weird album for me. In my ranking, it is indeed a roller coaster album. Sometimes it's awesome, nearing the upper half and challenging some. Other times I could throw it in the bottom 3rd of my ranking or #11 and not think twice about it. Scarred will always remain a top 3 DT song for me, SDV top 10. The rest, it varies A LOT. I like a lot of parts of the songs, but that doesn't make me think the songs are great. I love the verses of TDEN, but the song is probably my least favorite DT ever. For me, not loving Awake is not to do with the mood or lyrics, but mainly the production & mix, and the vocal melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 10, 2015, 03:26:17 AM
Awake is not dark. It is angsty, honest and angry. And that is what I am referring to in my post. This may be a weird comparison, but it is like  Dream Theater's counterpart to Alanis Morissete's Jagged Little Pill

Innocence Faded is an example of contrast. The music is bright but at the same time exudes negative emotion, especially harshness. There's some sort of passive-aggressive thing going on in this song, and you can feel it in the music, and even moreso in the lyrics, which contains a lot of swipes by JP against KM.

"Callow and vain
Fixed like a fossil, shrouding pain
Passionless stage
Distant like brothers
Wearing apathetic displays
Sharing flesh like envy in cages
Condescending
Not intending to end
...
Beginnings get complicated
the farther we progress
Opinions are calculated
Immune to openness"

That's some angry lyrics there. LOL.

As for 6:00, where KM deployed grating keys bordering on irritating, how appropriate is the music for these lyrics he penned?

"Six o'clock the siren kicks him from a dream
Tries to shake it off but it just won't stop
Can't find the strength but he's got promises to keep
And wood to chop before he sleeps

I may never get over
but never's better than now
I've got bases to cover

He's in the parking lot and he's just sitting in his car
It's nine o'clock but he can't get out
He lights a cigarette
and turns the music down
but just can't seem to shake that sound

Once I thought I'd get over
but it's too late for me now
I've got bases to cover

Melody walks through the door
and memory flies out the window
and nobody knows what they want
'til they finally let it all go"

Must be a slap to the face of the band to have a song about a member dragging himself to work with them. LOL. And then KM smoked us with an amazing solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 10, 2015, 05:30:51 AM
^

Dark to me when I said it was synonymous with the emotions you stated Erwin. Anger is typically a less desirable emotion, and those that exhibit it a lot may be considered rude, mean, harmful and so on down the darker line. Serious topics about work sucking, three songs IMO about breakups/relationships, drama, addiction(s), and a struggle with following a dogma are darker topics to me. Is a song about stem cell research, writer's block, or missing a significant other dark? Not really. Certainly a traditional pop love song is not too dark. So a happy sounding song will probably not be considered dark superficially, although lyrics can make it that way (hi Steven Wilson!)

My point was more on the music, my preceived taste in the sonic sound of the album, & vocal melodies making Awake a not so hot album. As I noted, two songs lyrics on Awake actually make me like the songs. That's how much I love the lyrics, and actually saves the album from ever being at the bottom. You mentioned that you felt people mostly don't connect with Awake because of the lyrics. I am saying it's the complete opposite for me!  ;) It is one of the saving factors of the album for me. If Awake was the same, but with SC lyrics substituted, I would keep this one in the cellar.

DT's dark lyrics are not so dark in the scope of music. They are not talking about how they will torture someone, nor practices of social taboos and norms an so on. But they still talk about hating a step father (HTF), telling a guitarist to go eff himself (AIA), monsters who murder (TDEN & ITPOE?), a tour of more well known mental disorders (SDOIT), telling ungrateful fans to eff off (NE), and 5 songs about addiction. And about honesty; NE & AIA again, and Raise the Knife. And JP & JLB have taken lyrical views against religious beliefs becoming intertwined with violence. Those are very heavy topics, and not about love, peace, feeling good and so on. Further, DT doesn't play with dissonance vs. other music a lot, but they do enough. Awake has both going on, but many parts of other albums do too. To ignore influence from increasingly extreme rock music in their music would be mistake IMO. To me, a band like Opeth took years to get into not so much as the death metal vocals nor the lyrical content, but the dissonant chords that primarily Mikael uses. So when I speak about darkness in music, it goes beyond words and vocal melodies, but how the harmonies and progressions/voicing goes.

I still get what you are saying though Erwin- Awake is angry like Jagged Little Pill was, and maybe the most turmoil filled album lyrically wise that actually was mirrored within the band. I would contend BC&SL had more drama, but it didn't reflect in the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 10, 2015, 05:55:31 AM
Sorry, maybe I was not clear. My take is that a lot who do not like Awake do not like it because of the music, which os dark, heavy and depressing. For me, though, the music is strong because of the way it combines with the lyrics to deliver a consistent narrative of anger, angst and personal issues.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 10, 2015, 07:19:53 AM
Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on July 10, 2015, 08:58:55 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 10, 2015, 07:19:53 AM
Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds.

I agree with everything you said. It's one of the reasons TOT is consistently sitting in my top 3 albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 10, 2015, 09:02:05 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on July 10, 2015, 07:19:53 AM
Not sure how controversial this is... but I absolutely love the production on Train of Thought.

Its perfect production for that type of straight-up-metal record. The guitars are thick and heavy with great tone, especially JP's lead tone is killer. The bass guitar sounds huge and thick. The drums sound great and punchy (MP had great drum sound on a consistent basis through the whole meta album cycle). JR sits in a great place in the mix for the heavier-style songs and James sounds phenomenal as well. I just love the way this record sounds.

My only issue with the sound on TOT is the way the toms sound on Mike's big kit. It's most clear in the middle section of ItNoG, but they sound super squeaky. It's not really a problem on the small kit (which he only used for AIA and SoC) but the big kit's toms are awful. It's a weird gripe and I'm sure many people would consider it nitpicking, but a big aspect of MP's playing is his fills so if his toms sound bad it really takes away from his overall performance (which is great on this record).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 10, 2015, 09:14:25 AM
I agree about TOT. I cannot vouch for what you say TheCount, as drum sounds to me are always there and solid, but I'm not focusing on the tone of individual drums.

The album mix is loud and probably too hot, but I cannot hear any clipping. As I mentioned, Mesa Recto rhythm's are my bag. And JM is completely audible but fits in perfectly, which is awesome considering it's not like he is playing tons of counter lines.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on July 10, 2015, 10:33:17 AM
I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2015, 10:43:13 AM
I wish they had left the Tchaikovsky thing for the BTFW rendition. Having it interrupt the otherwise nice string section is really a bummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 11, 2015, 12:37:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 10, 2015, 10:43:13 AM
I wish they had left the Tchaikovsky thing for the BTFW rendition. Having it interrupt the otherwise nice string section is really a bummer.

Pretty much the entire Illumination Theory theme is a Tchaikovsky renditripoffion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on July 11, 2015, 12:38:30 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 10, 2015, 10:33:17 AM
I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

Why hiding? half forum hates it too
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on July 11, 2015, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 10, 2015, 10:33:17 AM
I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*
nah see i agree with you
don't care for the enemy inside myself but Enigma Machine and The Bigger Picture aren't awful
the rest is boring as hell though
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nearmyth on July 11, 2015, 01:16:03 PM
Awake's darkness is exactly why I like it. Raw, emotional, powerful.

Also its production sounds incredibly nice on the ears. So crisp and clean, yet dynamic and punching.  :azn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 11, 2015, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 10, 2015, 10:33:17 AM
I really don't like their self-titled album. It's my first disappointment in a decade of listening to them. I love The Enemy Inside but dislike most of the rest, it's just super bland and Illumination Theory sounds like a real patchwork token effort at an 'epic' without any inspiration at all. They're my favourite band and all, but my expectations for the next record are cautiously low.

*hides*

Mostly agree.  Although, my expectations are a little mixed.  Will they redeem themselves or will it be more of the same?  BTW, my all time favorite band is Rush.   :biggrin:



Quote from: bosk1 on July 08, 2015, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 08, 2015, 11:46:40 AM
No, Rush hasn't had hits like that.  Not sure where this discussion is even coming from, because it isn't one.

Rush has only had ONE US Top 40 hit - the aformentioned New World Man, which made it to # 21.

You're right.  There isn't a discussion.  Rush had TONS of hit singles.  That isn't really debatable.  But if we are now saying that ONLY the ones that made the top 40 in the U.S. count, then I will concede that arbitrary distinction.

This.  There really is no debate when comparing 2 Kansas songs to anything that Rush has done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on July 11, 2015, 03:39:16 PM
Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 11, 2015, 04:41:59 PM
Dark Side of The Moon...Their best cover album, EVER!

The one downside though, Portnoy being Portnoy. He tends to speed up the songs a bit much.

Which leads me to say. Portnoy couldn't keep a vibe live. Certain songs require that vibe. "Classic" songs really desire to be played specifically like how it is.

He did however, play the last two songs with emotion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 11, 2015, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 11, 2015, 03:39:16 PM
Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on July 11, 2015, 11:51:35 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 11, 2015, 04:41:59 PM
Dark Side of The Moon...Their best cover album, EVER!

Agreed that Dark Side is the best album cover. Although there's still some decent stuff on the various 'uncovered' cover albums that can be pretty cool.


Anyway by the looks of it at this rate it's going to be controversial to think DT12 is one of their best efforts. Even though it's missing some of what I love about DT (long instrumental jams and OTT solos), everything else is so well polished and refined. I think it's great, but really I've listened to it the least out of any of their albums and I don't get the urge to go back to it very often, but so long as I only listen occasionally, some of the compositions still blow me away, and I feel there's a lot of subtleties in the music that I'm still discovering with each listen. Also, I'm in that group of people that thinks IT is the greatest 'epic' they've ever written so that might help my opinion of the album overall. :P

Also I dunno how controversial this is, but I've only just recently realised that Don't Look Past Me is a great song. I've had the idea that most people don't think much of it around here, not to mention most casual fans I've known don't even realise it exists. And I always thought it was pretty meh, but something clicked the other day and now I wish it was included on the album. IMO it's in the same league as the rest of the album as many of those songs seemed meh at first but then grew into masterpieces.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 12, 2015, 12:03:27 AM
I'm not sure I've ever heard Don't Look Past Me. What kills it is the lack of a readily available version with James on vocals. It's the least accessible of all the rare songs IAW and onward. You can get Eve on The Silent Man single for pretty cheap, To Live Forever is on Greatest Hit and elsewhere, the FII Demos exist (plus Raise the Knife is on Score), and if you really feel the need for Raw Dog, I suppose you can download it if that's truly what you feel like you need to do. But Don't Look Past Me, IIRC, is only on IAW Demos with a non-James singer and then on the hard-to-buy Cleaning Out the Closet with James.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 12:26:19 AM
Quote from: 425 on July 11, 2015, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 11, 2015, 03:39:16 PM
Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.

It is easy to appreciate the self-titled if you take it in the spirit of  what I think the band aimed for: a concise statement to be given to somebody who asks "What is Dream Theater?" Instead of going the FII or 8VM route, though, of trying to change their sound to fit in more mainstream sensibilities to appeal to more people, DT instead retained their core sound but made it straight-to-the-point, so that the non-long time fan who will sample it will get what Dream Theater is in a concise package.

The album was not aimed at the long-time fans, which, in one interview, JP said he's pretty sure already have their own favorite albums in the discography. This is the exact quote (https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album):

"Because we believe that, although we have a very deep and rich history and we’re incredibly proud of everything we’ve done, we’re still making our best music. So we wanted to make a point of that. The other thing is that a lot of our longtime fans already have their favorite albums of ours, but newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about. That was the goal and the mission, and it set the tone for the entire project."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 12, 2015, 12:30:12 AM
See, while I understand what they were going for, and while I am one of the people who ranks DT12 among their top 5 DT albums, I disagree with the idea that DT12 is a reference point for what DT is all about. In fact, I would argue that ADTOE works far better as that type of reference point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 12:39:05 AM
The interview does touch on that. For Petrucci, ADTOE is the album for the long-time fans:

"We felt we had something to prove with that album. We all were obviously deeply affected by Mike [Portnoy]’s departure, and we felt we needed to make the kind of record that people who had been longtime listeners of Dream Theater would immediately identify with and relate to and believe in. So we created something that had all the elements that make Dream Theater unique as a band. And I have to say, people were unbelievably wonderful and supportive of us during that time, which was an incredible feeling."

The Dream Theater album, however, is different. Maybe Petrucci thinks that the song length is one of the barriers to newer fans who are not used to hearing songs at the 10-12 minute range:

"Q: On first listen, one of the first things that struck me about the new Dream Theater was that, save for the 20-minute epic at the end, these songs are pretty streamlined, relatively speaking. Was that intentional?

A: Absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, there was a total intent to make this sort of a definitive album, and there was definitely in our minds a way to get there. One of those paths was to offer things that maybe we’re somewhat known for but haven’t actually done in a while —a standalone instrumental like “Enigma Machine,” for example, or a long-form, 20-minute epic like “Illumination Theory.”

Another path dealt with how to approach the rest of the music. One of the things we’ve done a lot in our career is to make albums where almost every song is in the 10-to-12-minute range. That’s fun, and that’s challenging, but we wanted these songs to really hit.

So we said, “How can we make every song on this album be a pummeling experience from beginning to end, without stripping away any of the integrity or the musical complexity or the melody or, really, anything that makes us unique as far as how we write?” So it was fun and it was really different from what we usually do. It was an incredibly exciting process for us."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 12:50:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

Try to give it to a casual listener who has not heard of DT. I actually got people who do not listen to much prog to appreciate TLG and TBP, but they can not finish the songs in ADTOE. My wife, for example, listens to Breaking All Illusions with a smile, then returns to me the earphones once the chorus is finished.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 12, 2015, 12:57:40 AM
I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that DT12 is a better starting point for a non-prog fan than ADTOE. But that's completely different than it being a "reference point" for the DT discography. If you want me to point to an album and say "this encapsulates what Dream Theater is about," I would not point to DT12, an album that does not have a single song in the 8-19 minute range. I wouldn't even consider it. But I would strongly consider pointing to ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:58:57 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 12:50:15 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.

Try to give it to a casual listener who has not heard of DT. I actually got people who do not listen to much prog to appreciate TLG and TBP, but they can not finish the songs in ADTOE. My wife, for example, listens to Breaking All Illusions with a smile, then returns to me the earphones once the chorus is finished.  :lol

If it appeals more to non-fans, then it's not a representative DT album, and is not a good baseline for them. That would just make it a more mainstream album.
And tbh I don't think DT12 is a strong enough album to be showing to new listeners anyway. If I want to show them more accessible material, there are many other DT songs/albums I'd show them first.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 01:35:56 AM
Quote from: 425 on July 12, 2015, 12:57:40 AM
I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that DT12 is a better starting point for a non-prog fan than ADTOE. But that's completely different than it being a "reference point" for the DT discography. If you want me to point to an album and say "this encapsulates what Dream Theater is about," I would not point to DT12, an album that does not have a single song in the 8-19 minute range. I wouldn't even consider it. But I would strongly consider pointing to ADTOE.

Yes, yes, ADTOE is more representative of the DT discography. I think what JP means by reference point is that Dream Theater is an album that sounds like DT but can be easily given to a newer fan as an introduction to the band. It's like a sampler, for those fans who might have heard of them because of the Grammy nominations exposure or something like that.

Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:58:57 AM
If it appeals more to non-fans, then it's not a representative DT album, and is not a good baseline for them. That would just make it a more mainstream album.
And tbh I don't think DT12 is a strong enough album to be showing to new listeners anyway. If I want to show them more accessible material, there are many other DT songs/albums I'd show them first.


But have you actually tried to get non-fans from a younger generation to listen to these albums? Was there any actual experience where you gave a Dream Theater album to somebody who is not yet exposed to their music? I have done my fair share of sharing the music to non-fans. And my experience is that a lot of people who I shared DT albums with do not have the patience to sit through the 8-9 minute songs but got hooked by the shorter songs of DT12.

It is a more mainstream album. It was the intention of the album! "Newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about." It is aimed at newer fans.

They have done this twice, in FII and 8VM. What they did in those albums to make the songs more mainstream is, aside from shortening the songs, they changed their sound to incorporate elements in the current music scene. What we got then are short songs that do not sound like DT, but instead sounded like Muse, or U2. We got the trying to be pop song You Not Me and a slew of slow rock songs. With the Dream Theater album, they shortened the songs, but they tried not to lose what they sounded like so that it is a "reference point" to what they actually sound like.

My take is that:

newer fans = shorter, less intimidating song structures

reference point = retain the Dream Theater sound instead of trying to sound like another band


Now, for me, even as a longtime fan, I really appreciate the Dream Theater album because it gives me concise representations of my favorite band. It's a good listen while going on a short walk from my office room to my class, where I can finish The Looking Glass just by the time I get to the door. It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery. It is a good Dream Theater listening experience on a mobile device, where I just consume the music in bite-sized pieces as I go about doing several other things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on July 12, 2015, 05:51:46 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 01:35:56 AM
It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery.

Oh I'm sure a lot people will agree with you with that one... just for not the same reasons than you  :lol

Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 01:35:56 AM
It's something I can listen to in between lectures, during short commutes, just before I go to sleep, while washing the dishes, or going to the convenience store or the grocery.

The Dream Theater dishwasher: Helping you washing dishes in odd-time since 1989! Buy now for only 8 payments of 58.85$.

But I think what you're saying makes sense and I'll be inclined to agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 12, 2015, 06:00:34 AM
Same here.  The Looking Glass is easily one of their most accessible songs ever.  Both the riff and vocal melodies are catchy as heck, and it is short enough to not turn off the average person on length alone.  You could do a lot worse than having someone who has never heard DT listening to that first.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nightmare_cinema on July 12, 2015, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2015, 12:26:19 AM
Quote from: 425 on July 11, 2015, 10:39:15 PM
Quote from: nightmare_cinema on July 11, 2015, 03:39:16 PM
Last time I was around these parts it seemed the vast majority of people were proclaiming the self-titled as one of DT's best records, everyone was going crazy over it! I felt back then it just wasn't sinking in and probably never would and I was right, it never did. It's one of the biggest disappointments musically, considering I'm the kinda person that thinks every album from I&W onwards was incredible in its own right, it just didn't feel like the same band anymore. But who knows what'll come next? I'm not hopeful, but I will be keeping an open mind.

The self-titled is one of their most polarizing albums (along with, I would argue, FII and 8VM). People who don't like it typically don't like it at all, while people who do like it typically rank it among DT's best records. That can easily give you the impression that everyone loves it, if you happen to read more of the posts where people say it is one of the best, and it can also give you the impression that most people don't like it, if you happen to read more of the other kind of posts.

It is easy to appreciate the self-titled if you take it in the spirit of  what I think the band aimed for: a concise statement to be given to somebody who asks "What is Dream Theater?" Instead of going the FII or 8VM route, though, of trying to change their sound to fit in more mainstream sensibilities to appeal to more people, DT instead retained their core sound but made it straight-to-the-point, so that the non-long time fan who will sample it will get what Dream Theater is in a concise package.

The album was not aimed at the long-time fans, which, in one interview, JP said he's pretty sure already have their own favorite albums in the discography. This is the exact quote (https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album):

"Because we believe that, although we have a very deep and rich history and we’re incredibly proud of everything we’ve done, we’re still making our best music. So we wanted to make a point of that. The other thing is that a lot of our longtime fans already have their favorite albums of ours, but newer fans don’t have that reference point. We wanted to make this album a reference point for them as far as what Dream Theater is all about. That was the goal and the mission, and it set the tone for the entire project."

It's pretty interesting that they consider it to be a reference point to what DT is all about... I guess it's tough for me because the thing that's always gotten me most excited about DT is how their music makes me feel, it's nothing really to do with song length, technicality, although I reckon that not constraining themselves to short songs couple with being able to play pretty much anything they can imagine or come up with is a big part of why their songs and albums are so creative and different. So if I were showing someone DT, as a reference point, I guess I'd choose something like SFAM, it encapsulates so much of what DT is about. It's a concept album, there are so many feels on that record, there are the long complex instrumental sections alongside soft more ballady songs, mindblowing solos, I guess yeah, many people new to DT might be turned off by it not having loads of short accessible songs on it, but I'd be surprised if someone easily turned off by the length/complexity etc. ended up getting into DT anyway, as you kinda can't escape that in their music.

So it's pretty  much as far away from being a reference point as I can imagine, based on my own tastes. It's not really a bad record, I'm just listening again now because I tend to avoid it like the plague and yeah, there are some moments of brilliance on there, but the thing I've always loved about DT is you struggle to go ten seconds without something amazing that makes you stop and really listen, and those moments are so thin on the ground here. I just feel like they tried so hard to make something representative of the band as a whole (from the interviews mentioned here) they forgot to actually just go forward and make an amazing record like they've been doing effortlessly for the past twenty five/thirty years.

I have to say, from any other band, this album would probably rank as 'pretty good'. It's just my expectations of DT are so high. So compared to what I know they've been capable of, this falls short. I'm glad so many people enjoy it, though. Although I was disappointed, it's no big deal when you consider the other 10 albums that I still listen to on a very regular basis after a decade and hold enormous respect for me (I don't include WDADU just because it's never really done it for me).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on July 12, 2015, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on July 12, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
I prefer to let the music do the talking, rather than the band.
ADTOE is a much better reference point of the band than DT12 in every regard imo.


JP's quotes from Erwin made me think differently about ADTOE and DT12. The music is always there, and in 40 years that will talk more than buried quotes. So on that end I agree.

I respect what JP said, and both albums have always struck me as agenda driven albums. I never knew that about ADTOE, and makes more sense the borrowing of I&W structures and moods, for better or for worse, to re-hook disenfranchised fans. And DT12, for all of it's flaws, was more straight-forward as a whole compared to ADTOE & BC&SL
Quote from: KevShmev on July 12, 2015, 06:00:34 AM
The Looking Glass is easily one of their most accessible songs ever.  Both the riff and vocal melodies are catchy as heck, and it is short enough to not turn off the average person on length alone. 
I will add in Along For The Ride, and STR is a bit longer but accessible. Many of the songs have those more straight ahead movements vs. unisons and solo trade offs. DT12 was not FII, but I feel it went after a similar spirit, while still retaining DT hallmarks. Maybe it established a future direction for DT. And if so, it did that pretty well as a transitionary album. Which according to things JP has said, and the album title in itself, that is what it is/was.

If all other albums post DT12 are duds, well then history will look at DT12, and maybe before as a continued downward slide for the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on August 03, 2015, 01:20:06 PM
LSFNY is JLB's best recorded live performance.

Yes, I know - his range was severely limited during this period, especially live, and it didn't come close to being fully recovered until around about the Octavarium tour. But think about it - this show came at the very end of a long tour and the setlist is one of the most epic and demanding in the band's history, and the guy just belts out every single song with absolutely no restraint. Vocally, the guy was going through absolute hell and yet for some reason, here, his voice has a wonderful, raw, spontaneous and aggressive quality that I'm not sure he has replicated before or since, with the exception of maybe LATM or certain other shows on the I&W tour. And it's not like we're even talking about your standard DT show here - we're talking about possibly the longest and most vocally demanding in DT's history (and bear in mind DT were in the habit of frequently rotating setlists during this period). All of SFAM, followed by a brutal second set including the likes of Metropolis Pt. 1, The Mirror, Another Day, A Mind Beside Itself, Learning to Live and A Change of Seasons in it's entirity. He does all of that, and he even has enough vocal strength to ironically apologise about the short set at the very end!

Another thing that makes this performance "especially special" is that on a couple of occasions, JLB knows he cannot possibly hit certain notes, so he'll do something even more awesome to compensate. Best example of this is in Learning to Live - JLB knows he cannot hit that F#, so he doesn't even attempt to go for it, opting instead to sing a slightly lower harmony. But does he leave it at that? Does he heck - he sings an incredible harmony with JP's guitar lead in the following section that acts as the climax of the song, and indeed the second set, resulting in what is for my money the most chill-inducing live moment of DT's career - or if not that, perhaps second only to his duet with Theresa Thompson of TSCO in the first set.

Another example of where James doesn't quite hit the high notes is The Mirror. Listen to the "I spent so long trusting in you etc." line - clearly he doesn't "nail" it as per the record, but listen to what he does instead. Does it make the song any less awesome? Does it heck - if anything, I think I actually prefer this version to the studio version.

Bottom line is this - what James lacks in range in this show, he more than makes up for with the sheer, brutal passion with which he delivers his vocals in this, one of DT's longest and most demanding shows to date. That's why if I needed to convince anyone of what a truly amazing vocalist JLB is, I wouldn't show them Score or BTFW - it would be Live Scenes all the way  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 03, 2015, 04:48:38 PM
That's a very nice interpretation, with some very interesting points. Funnily enough, JLB at his pure peak is Score...no doubt, but I agree that his most passionate, heart-wrenching performance is that of LSFNY. Like you just said, his performance is powerful and inspiring like no other time I've heard the man sing before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 03, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

JLB has luckily improved tremendously since then, being pretty consistently great for the past decade. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 03, 2015, 10:34:34 PM
No solo has ever been more ruined by JLB than "Let me see the hands everyone... Trust me, it looks cool". Only bad thing of live Illumination Theory, and the reason why I don't listen to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on August 04, 2015, 02:54:46 AM
I always thought that iv. The Pursuit of Truth was the worst part of the live version, such high notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 04, 2015, 12:09:56 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 03, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

I don't think it's like that. The original demo of LTL had that vocal line with the guitar solo, so it seems to me like another nod to the past from them. It's quite climatic, I'd say.

Also, I wouldn't say not hitting the note is a 'loss'. For many years I related good singing and expression with vocal range, which is pretty common at least in some people who like metal with vocalists who can constantly hit notes in the sky...and I used to think JLB not hitting the F# was something terrible, but not anymore. The decision of not trying to hit the note and just playing to your capabilities seems mature and reasonable, and every note he sings afterwards in that version of LTL sounds powerful and passionate; and that's good enough for me. I pray JLB realises soon he doesn't have his 28 year old voice anymore so we will stop trying to reach the higher notes like he used to, because nowadays it just doesn't sound good. Wacken show is proof of that, I'd say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 04, 2015, 12:18:03 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 04, 2015, 12:09:56 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 03, 2015, 10:27:23 PM
JLB ruins that whole part of LTL with his stuff over the guitar solo. You couldn't hit the note, just back down and accept the loss.

I don't think it's like that. The original demo of LTL had that vocal line with the guitar solo, so it seems to me like another nod to the past from them. It's quite climatic, I'd say.

Also, I wouldn't say not hitting the note is a 'loss'. For many years I related good singing and expression with vocal range, which is pretty common at least in some people who like metal with vocalists who can constantly hit notes in the sky...and I used to think JLB not hitting the F# was something terrible, but not anymore. The decision of not trying to hit the note and just playing to your capabilities seems mature and reasonable, and every note he sings afterwards in that version of LTL sounds powerful and passionate; and that's good enough for me. I pray JLB realises soon he doesn't have his 28 year old voice anymore so we will stop trying to reach the higher notes like he used to, because nowadays it just doesn't sound good. Wacken show is proof of that, I'd say.
I agree with all of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on August 04, 2015, 01:29:45 PM
Me too. I'd much rather have James sing the higher vocal lines differently than him singing slightly above his range. Doing so isn't good for voice, it doesn't sound too great and it's hard to do on longer tours.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 04, 2015, 02:01:53 PM
Thing is, I find he's not doing a particularly good job at coming up with alternate melodies. Like, instead of replacing certain sections with a new, good melody that he can solidly sing (and thus make sound good), he leaves it as-is, but then essentially backs out at the last second. That makes it jarring and super-obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 04, 2015, 02:32:08 PM
I think it's only obvious to us.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 04, 2015, 03:16:57 PM
James LaBrie should be demoted to being the official tambourine DT player.

They should hire another singer.

Is that ok for you? JLB haters?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on August 04, 2015, 03:20:29 PM
At least then we won't have to listen to his bad language.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 04, 2015, 03:22:43 PM
Quote from: bl5150 on August 04, 2015, 03:20:29 PM
At least then we won't have to listen to his bad language.

I feel... so proud of you...
I don't know why so many people don't feel insulted with his live phrasing. I mean, other metal bands are so polite... and use such cult words... but James... Yeah, this would solve it!

For further information for non-knowers, please head to "For a DTF without swearing" on General Discussion to share your thoughts on DT's constant bad wording. Join the crusade!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on August 04, 2015, 06:59:56 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on August 04, 2015, 03:16:57 PM
James LaBrie should be demoted to being the official tambourine DT player.

They should hire another singer.

Is that ok for you? JLB haters?

JLB's position on stage should be kinda awkwardly crammed between the guitar amps and the drum kit.  He should make sure to bring his microphone stand on and off stage with him so we don't have to remember he's there when there's no tamborine to be played.

Who should be the new DT singer? I know I'm being controversial here, but Daniel Gildenlow? I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 08:40:27 AM
Maybe this isn't controversial, but more of a minor complaint.

The LSFNY version of A Change of Seasons is nearly perfect with the exception of the end of JP's solo beginning with "..untie these strings, I'm climbing down. I won't let them push me away."

I think it's my favorite JP solo, the ending is perfect on the studio version, and he just kinda fudges or improvises the last bar which is a real letdown for me on that version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 10, 2015, 11:05:35 AM
That's a pretty good version of ACOS until "The Inevitable Summer" instrumental where JP just butchers the shit of it.  Dude, everybody knows you're the king of shred.  Will you just play it like it's written?  That was one of the best parts of the whole song.  Don't sacrifice the quality of the song with excessive wankery.  These days I just prefer to hear the studio version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 11:25:20 AM
Yeah, he did that in Hollow Years on L@B.  Shredding is completely uncalled-for in that song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 10, 2015, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 11:25:20 AM
Yeah, he did that in Hollow Years on L@B.  Shredding is completely uncalled-for in that song.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 11:47:46 AM
He writes good non-shred solos and performs them well.  However, I don't think he is any good improvising.  You can see when he goes "off script", then pauses, and shreds his way out of the improv.  He ends a lot of solos like this, and I think it hurts his live performances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 10, 2015, 11:53:48 AM
Well, I agree to a certain point, but the L@B version of HY was a rendition of the original.  The solo was added in.  Not really the same scenario as ACOS.  I actually like the L@B version of HY.  But yeah, I can understand why some people would want to hear that song in it original state.  Either way , I like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 10, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I think the greatest example of his shredding nonsensical stuff is at his solo at Luna Park.
It's all fine, all good, and Jordan plays along with him awesomely, then he starts shredding. It sounds so atonal, so out of place, so unnecessary, it's not melodic in anyway and it doesn't sound like that. When he does slow parts (like the one where he sits in front of the drums) are just beautiful, but the other shredding parts are pretty unnecessary and makes me wonder why didn't he just continue playing along with JR.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 10, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
While I also dislike that part about his playing, what I dislike even more is that it seems to control how they compose music overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 26, 2015, 04:11:31 PM
Does anyone else have this that DT is kinda completely off the radar? Like, it used to be that there were obvious high times (album, DVD releases), but the low times were "simmering" at the very least, with maybe once a month a new factoid emerging that was interesting.
I don't know, with all this secrecy regarding the new album, and the rigid set lists, they've just completely gone off my radar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 26, 2015, 04:15:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 26, 2015, 04:11:31 PM
Does anyone else have this that DT is kinda completely off the radar? Like, it used to be that there were obvious high times (album, DVD releases), but the low times were "simmering" at the very least, with maybe once a month a new factoid emerging that was interesting.
I don't know, with all this secrecy regarding the new album, and the rigid set lists, they've just completely gone off my radar.

That's reasonable. And what really gets me was there was so little attention on the summer tour. I feel like there needs to be a connection made with the fans if there is going to be this long between albums. And I don't mean the stock kind of statements that JP has been churning out over the last few years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 26, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Well yeah but you know us Americans, if the tour isn't near us we don't pay attention.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on August 26, 2015, 04:19:13 PM
Yeah, the "small band" interaction that was spearheaded by MP (and I would argue was integral the their success) has given way to corporate marketing in a lot of places.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 26, 2015, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 26, 2015, 04:19:13 PM
Yeah, the "small band" interaction that was spearheaded by MP (and I would argue was integral the their success) has given way to corporate marketing in a lot of places.

But also lead to MP to be burnt out and his departure from DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 26, 2015, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 26, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
Well yeah but you know us Americans, if the tour isn't near us we don't pay attention.
True, but if a band is supposedly celebrating it's 30th anniversary, I just think we should've heard more from them. Maybe they'll surprise us with a Happy Holidays 2015 CD from this summer's tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 26, 2015, 06:26:37 PM
Remember, I don't recognize this celebration.  Their dates are off. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on August 26, 2015, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 26, 2015, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: rumborak on August 26, 2015, 04:19:13 PM
Yeah, the "small band" interaction that was spearheaded by MP (and I would argue was integral the their success) has given way to corporate marketing in a lot of places.
But also lead to MP to be burnt out and his departure from DT.
But if this same amount of "small band" interaction was distributed among all 5 members of the band, there will never be the burn out that MP experienced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 26, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Scott, I get it but Mike needed to take care of himself, he took too much on.  That's not saying anything bad about him.  He needed to realize that, not the other members. 

Too bad for us fans. We were spoiled like no other fans but to what end?  It lead to Mike leaving.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on August 27, 2015, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on August 26, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Scott, I get it but Mike needed to take care of himself, he took too much on.  That's not saying anything bad about him.  He needed to realize that, not the other members. 

Too bad for us fans. We were spoiled like no other fans but to what end?  It lead to Mike leaving.
I think you misunderstood what I meant in my post - I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about now. Specifically that the 5 current members of the band could divide this same sort of "small band" interaction between the 5 of them, which would not prove to be a major burden (and thereby risk burn out) to any single one of them, and yet bring the band closer to the fans, keeping them interested.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on August 27, 2015, 06:17:16 AM
Oh yes.  I completely agree.  Mike was beyond diligent and the others have not matched his dedication to all the extras to the fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on August 28, 2015, 06:58:31 AM
Quote from: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 11:47:46 AM
He writes good non-shred solos and performs them well.  However, I don't think he is any good improvising.  You can see when he goes "off script", then pauses, and shreds his way out of the improv.  He ends a lot of solos like this, and I think it hurts his live performances.

I tend to agree with you, he is a great player with amazing chops but his improv skills aren't that great, or at least have diminished over the years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2015, 08:48:57 PM
Not so much an opinion about DT, as about JLB, and I'm not sure how controversial this is, but I've been thinking. It's no secret that most of the music on his solo albums gets written by Matt Guillory, and it's all great, and he makes sure to give credit where credit is due. But honestly, I would love to hear an album where JLB takes pretty much sole musical creative control. I mean, I would just love to see what he has in him as a composer and what he could come up with. I think it'd be very interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 28, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
This has been on my mind for years but I don't think I've mentioned it here and TGP reminded me of it.

DT should hire Matt Guillory as a permanent producer with almost full control or a 6th non-touring member who helps writes the core of most songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 28, 2015, 09:35:43 PM
Granted, I have never heard any solo JLB, but absolutely not, never ever, no. Dream Theater does not need to add any outside voice. The current method of songwriting is working just fine. Absolutely no need to mess with anything at all right now in that department.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on August 29, 2015, 12:35:08 AM
Quote from: abydos on August 28, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
This has been on my mind for years but I don't think I've mentioned it here and TGP reminded me of it.

DT should hire Matt Guillory as a permanent producer with almost full control or a 6th non-touring member who helps writes the core of most songs.

I absolutely love what Matt Guillory has done for JLB's solo music, but I don't want that at all. Keep them two separate entities. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on August 29, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on August 28, 2015, 08:48:57 PM
Not so much an opinion about DT, as about JLB, and I'm not sure how controversial this is, but I've been thinking. It's no secret that most of the music on his solo albums gets written by Matt Guillory, and it's all great, and he makes sure to give credit where credit is due. But honestly, I would love to hear an album where JLB takes pretty much sole musical creative control. I mean, I would just love to see what he has in him as a composer and what he could come up with. I think it'd be very interesting.

I love JLB, he is my favorite member of the band thanks to his sense of humor, lyrics, and of course his voice, but he is not a musical composer.  He doesn't play any instruments and I doubt he would feel comfortable even writing more than half the lyrics to an album. 

With that said, if he did have a concept or idea or theme that he could run with while others composed the majority of the music with his direction guiding the mood, I would kill to hear that.  Chances of this ever happening: 0%

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on August 29, 2015, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 29, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
...he is not a musical composer.  He doesn't play any instruments

voice is an instrument, and you don't have to play an instrument to compose, I'm sure JLB has plenty of musical knowledge
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on August 29, 2015, 06:51:35 AM
Writing vocal lines counts as composing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on August 29, 2015, 07:58:54 AM
Quote from: Lucien on August 29, 2015, 12:59:47 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 29, 2015, 12:54:12 AM
...he is not a musical composer.  He doesn't play any instruments

voice is an instrument, and you don't have to play an instrument to compose, I'm sure JLB has plenty of musical knowledge

Thank you. I've always hated it when people say that a person's voice isn't an instrument. You can still read music for it, practice to improve your skills at it, and write for it. The only difference is that a singer is born with their instrument intact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on August 29, 2015, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on August 29, 2015, 12:35:08 AM
Quote from: abydos on August 28, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
This has been on my mind for years but I don't think I've mentioned it here and TGP reminded me of it.

DT should hire Matt Guillory as a permanent producer with almost full control or a 6th non-touring member who helps writes the core of most songs.

I absolutely love what Matt Guillory has done for JLB's solo music, but I don't want that at all. Keep them two separate entities. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.
I agree, but personally I've felt that over the last 10 years or so, DT has progressively gotten worse and worse at composing actual songs. To me there's something lacking in the songwriting, everything seems to be about technical execution and melody and lyrics come last. That has always been part of their music, of course, but in the past they've done both and now one is almost completely missing or just there on a few occasions, burried between shreds and weird sound effects.

@Sacul, from what we've seen in videos and demos, James doesn't seem to write much vocal melodies, at least not from the ground up. He's usually presented with them from Mike or John (maybe Rudess now?) and then they work out the kinks together.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on August 29, 2015, 10:41:04 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on August 28, 2015, 06:58:31 AM
Quote from: jasc15 on August 10, 2015, 11:47:46 AM
He writes good non-shred solos and performs them well.  However, I don't think he is any good improvising.  You can see when he goes "off script", then pauses, and shreds his way out of the improv.  He ends a lot of solos like this, and I think it hurts his live performances.

I tend to agree with you, he is a great player with amazing chops but his improv skills aren't that great, or at least have diminished over the years.


I agree. I feel he never has been a great improver, as far as a prolonged solo spots. But it's acceptable to me, as he is IMO incredible at composing solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on August 29, 2015, 11:11:01 AM
I think DT should stay away from using outside writers, but it would be a great idea to bring Guillory in to help out with the vocal arrangements/production, as he seems to get the best out of JLB and knows how to play to his strengths.
Quote from: abydos on August 29, 2015, 09:49:04 AM
@Sacul, from what we've seen in videos and demos, James doesn't seem to write much vocal melodies, at least not from the ground up. He's usually presented with them from Mike or John (maybe Rudess now?) and then they work out the kinks together.
On DT12 James has a co-writing credit for the music on all the non-instrumental songs except AFTR, and on ADTOE he contributed to BMUBMD, LNF and FFH, so he seems to have more input and influence on the vocal melodies nowadays.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:29:54 AM
I've always seen voice as the hardest musical instrument.
Because if it's screwed up, you have to deal with it, you just can't buy another one like you buy a guitar or a keyboard.
You're born with it and it's very fragile, has to be taken care of. And yeah, finding a proper tuning does require musical knowledge and ear, which JLB totally does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
The middle part of Outcry should have been taken out and worked as an instrumental.







Ok... no


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on August 29, 2015, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: ? on August 29, 2015, 11:11:01 AM
On DT12 James has a co-writing credit for the music on all the non-instrumental songs except AFTR, and on ADTOE he contributed to BMUBMD, LNF and FFH, so he seems to have more input and influence on the vocal melodies nowadays.

Also, we know that during the SDOIT-BCSL period it was required that the lyricist write at least the basic outline of the vocal melodies. So JLB wrote at least the outlines of the vocal melodies to Blind Faith, Disappear, Vacant, Sacrificed Sons and Prophets of War (we know not the MP vocal parts). And he probably wrote the vocal melodies to the songs that have his lyrics outside of the time period, since JMX was probably the only one who didn't. JLB, then, probably wrote the vocal melodies for Anna Lee, One Last Time (at least in part) and Far From Heaven. Also, though I assume JP wrote most of the melodies for this one, I'm sure he at least did some on Caught In a Web.

Plus all the songs where he got a songwriting credit (where he probably helped work out the vocal melodies even when the lyricist probably created the initial structure), that's a fair number of songs on which JLB contributed to the vocal melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on August 29, 2015, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
The middle part of Outcry should have been taken out and worked as an instrumental.







Ok... no

Controversial- Metropolis Pt I
 TDEN, and TMOLS agrees with you. HK does not agree with you, as he was saved from that terrible fate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on August 29, 2015, 10:45:35 PM
I've never said that the voice is not an instrument but using your voice and playing an instrument are very different.  There is little evidence to show that JLB has instigated any songs.  Sure he has been a co-writer for Anna Lee and Vacant but by all accounts he seems to be singing over what somebody else wrote. 

All I'm saying is of everyone in the band, he comes in at the very end most of the time, and then contributes.  Hard for someone to give direction or compose anything when they are the final piece of the puzzle as opposed to the first.  Granted, he is an incredibly important piece of the puzzle and to me, I listen to his voice more than most other instruments but what I was initially responding to was a desire for James to laydown the groundwork and direction.  All the other guys lay down the foundation and then he comes in and does his thing (with some interaction or suggestions here or there).  He isn't a "foundation" type of guy.  Still incredibly important and incredibly talented
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on September 01, 2015, 01:28:13 AM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
The middle part of Outcry should have been taken out and worked as an instrumental.
I agree with you. The weakest parts of Outcry are... everything apart fromt the instrumental parts IMO. It's not a bad song... but the instrumental section is just the only section I like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on September 01, 2015, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Onno on September 01, 2015, 01:28:13 AM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
The middle part of Outcry should have been taken out and worked as an instrumental.
I agree with you. The weakest parts of Outcry are... everything apart fromt the instrumental parts IMO. It's not a bad song... but the instrumental section is just the only section I like.

For me it's the opposite. I feel like the instrumental section brings down an otherwise great song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2015, 06:43:57 AM
Quote from: 425 on August 29, 2015, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: ? on August 29, 2015, 11:11:01 AM
On DT12 James has a co-writing credit for the music on all the non-instrumental songs except AFTR, and on ADTOE he contributed to BMUBMD, LNF and FFH, so he seems to have more input and influence on the vocal melodies nowadays.

Also, we know that during the SDOIT-BCSL period it was required that the lyricist write at least the basic outline of the vocal melodies. So JLB wrote at least the outlines of the vocal melodies to Blind Faith, Disappear, Vacant, Sacrificed Sons and Prophets of War (we know not the MP vocal parts). And he probably wrote the vocal melodies to the songs that have his lyrics outside of the time period, since JMX was probably the only one who didn't. JLB, then, probably wrote the vocal melodies for Anna Lee, One Last Time (at least in part) and Far From Heaven. Also, though I assume JP wrote most of the melodies for this one, I'm sure he at least did some on Caught In a Web.

Plus all the songs where he got a songwriting credit (where he probably helped work out the vocal melodies even when the lyricist probably created the initial structure), that's a fair number of songs on which JLB contributed to the vocal melodies.

I thought even JMX did, and that requirement was why there were less JMX lyrics than for the other guys?  I also thought that rule went further back?   I'm not arguing, because I don't have any info other than my "remembery", but just asking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 01, 2015, 07:42:52 AM
The rule didn't go further back, because the passing of the rule was what resulted in no more JM lyrics (hence 6DOIT, since he furnished lyrics for SFAM).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on September 01, 2015, 07:53:46 AM
I hate to say this but I really can't stand JLB vocals live anymore, especially when he tries to hit high notes. I use to forgive him given his age and it's simply hard to sing stuff you sang 20 years ago but it's gotten to the point were I can't enjoy their live shows anymore. I love DT, some immense talent without a doubt and they still write good music but everytime I hear them live these days I always wonder what they would sound like with a diffrent singer, I just do and that can't be a good thing.... :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on September 01, 2015, 08:21:02 AM
To me, the unfortunate part is the things he did to his voice to compensate for what he can no longer do. E.g., he's taken to screeching a lot of high notes, where I wish he'd rather sit down and come up with a good, not-improvised vocal line. In his youth he used to have this buttery-smooth vibrato, but because he doesn't have it anymore but still wants the wide vibrato, he oftentimes sounds like Mrs. Miller singing "Monday Monday".
I think I would enjoy JLB a lot more live if he emphasized on his strengths, not just trying to emulate the past.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 01, 2015, 08:30:40 AM
That happens to all aging singers that push the limits though over time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on September 01, 2015, 09:47:09 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on September 01, 2015, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Onno on September 01, 2015, 01:28:13 AM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on August 29, 2015, 11:51:39 AM
The middle part of Outcry should have been taken out and worked as an instrumental.
I agree with you. The weakest parts of Outcry are... everything apart fromt the instrumental parts IMO. It's not a bad song... but the instrumental section is just the only section I like.

For me it's the opposite. I feel like the instrumental section brings down an otherwise great song.

THIS. I love the song, but I feel like the instrumental part kills the song mood. It´s an emotional tune and it doesn't need that complex instrumental part. IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 01, 2015, 11:43:16 AM
Outcry is perfect the way it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 01, 2015, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on September 01, 2015, 11:43:16 AM
Outcry is perfect the way it is.
I think so too.

When I first heard, I much preferred the instrumental section to the rest of the song.  But it has grown on me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on September 02, 2015, 11:01:12 AM
Quote from: TAC on September 01, 2015, 11:43:16 AM
Outcry is perfect the way it is.
Top 4 ADTOE song for me, and that's easily one of my favorite albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on September 14, 2015, 03:58:46 PM
Not sure if I said this already in this thread but I rank WDADU higher than the last 4 DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on September 14, 2015, 04:07:11 PM
The only way DT will ever be relevant is if they start playing Djent

THERE I SAID IT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on October 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM
JLB needs to shut up. No, not from singing, but in (live) situations where the band has this awesome groove/riff/metal/ thing going, he far too often tries to get the crowd going by shouting "HEY! HEY! HEY!". Again and again, every single time! Ruins the whole thing. Now he ruined The Glass Prison from Gigantour for me.

James, no more "HEY!", OK?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 03, 2015, 01:58:11 PM
I don't even consider that controversial, I think it's pretty much universally frowned upon. Don't get  me wrong, I think James is an awesome singer, but I've never really considered him to be as good a frontman.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 03, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
I've never even considered JLB to be a frontman.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 03, 2015, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 03, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
I've never even considered JLB to be a frontman.  :lol

Well... That is an opinion, I guess... But it's incorrect, since he is a front man. It's kind of like saying, "I've never considered Bruce Campbell to be an actor."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on October 03, 2015, 05:32:52 PM
Well some people complain that the band is too static and are boring to watch live. And when James tries to engage the crowd some tell him he should shut up. Unfortunately, he really can't win either way  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
Let's face it, we will never be satisfied until James sings Your Majesty live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on October 03, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 03, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
Let's face it, we will never be satisfied until James sings Your Majesty live.

John: Hey James! For the next tour, I thought about bringing back Your Majesty to the setlist. What do you think?
James: Ahaha, nice one John! For a second I really believed you.
John:... I was serious.
James:...
John: So?

James: *wakes up screaming* YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! Oh god, I was just dreaming. Well, that will be nightmare I'll remember.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 03, 2015, 06:40:41 PM
Ahh, great banter during the late night.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 03, 2015, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 03, 2015, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 03, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
I've never even considered JLB to be a frontman.  :lol

Well... That is an opinion, I guess... But it's incorrect, since he is a front man. It's kind of like saying, "I've never considered Bruce Campbell to be an actor."

I believe he means something other than just singing. Let's be honest about it, being a frontman is not JLB's strong side. I have to admit he improves himself about stage manners and control but again he is simply not good at it. His focusing is like just singing well and conveying the feelings which he does it just perfect, imo. But being a frontman is another matter. Maybe, Bruce Dickinson is a great example for that matter.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 03, 2015, 07:28:15 PM
Yes, Bruce Dickinson has always been the first name to come to my mind when I hear frontman, another great one is Myles Kennedy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 03, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 03, 2015, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on October 03, 2015, 05:01:59 PM
Well... That is an opinion, I guess... But it's incorrect, since he is a front man. It's kind of like saying, "I've never considered Bruce Campbell to be an actor."

I believe he means something other than just singing. Let's be honest about it, being a frontman is not JLB's strong side. I have to admit he improves himself about stage manners and control but again he is simply not good at it. His focusing is like just singing well and conveying the feelings which he does it just perfect, imo. But being a frontman is another matter. Maybe, Bruce Dickinson is a great example for that matter.

While that may be the case, he is in fact a frontman. Whether he is a good frontman is an opinion, whether he is a frontman is not. It is a fact that he is a frontman. If you say that he is not a frontman, you are factually, evidentially, objectively wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 03, 2015, 09:39:22 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 03, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
While that may be the case, he is in fact a frontman. Whether he is a good frontman is an opinion, whether he is a frontman is not. It is a fact that he is a frontman. If you say that he is not a frontman, you are factually, evidentially, objectively wrong.

Exactly.

As to whether he is a good frontman or not, I mean, if you compare everyone to Bruce Dickinson, then 70+% of frontmen out there wouldn't be considered good. Personally, having been a DT fan for as long as I have, I grew to like James' stage presence. I mean, it's a little awkward at times, but that in itself gives it its own charm. It's like Geddy Lee, minimal though his on-stage audience interaction may be, it's kind of awkward, but it's a part of why I love the guy. You're not looking for him to seem like some Badass Rock Hero, you're just looking for him to address the crowd and talk about the songs and the band a little bit. And frankly, on Live at Luna Park, those little blurbs that he said about JR and JP after their solos, I thought were very poignant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 03, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
I agree with JLa that LaBrie has too many live moments where he talks over music at the wrong times.  You have to know when and where to pick your spots, and too often, James talks at the wrong time. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 03, 2015, 11:13:56 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 03, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
I agree with JLa that LaBrie has too many live moments where he talks over music at the wrong times.  You have to know when and where to pick your spots, and too often, James talks at the wrong time.
Yup. For me, it was his habit on the Dramatic tour of introducing the songs after the band had already been playing the song for a full minute - it's like he forgot to introduce the song beforehand and decided to do it anyway. Perfect examples of this are 6:00 and AFiL on L@LP. Not sure who came up with this "brilliant" idea, but it annoys me to no end. If you're gonna introduce a song, do it before they start playing it or at the very least, say something right when the band starts playing it (such as AFiL on L@tM, where there's no break between it and Metropolis).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on October 04, 2015, 02:19:31 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 03, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
I agree with JLa that LaBrie has too many live moments where he talks over music at the wrong times.  You have to know when and where to pick your spots, and too often, James talks at the wrong time.

Agreed. That's what buggers me the most about JLB too, as much as I love the man as a singer. Sometimes, I just want to say : "Shut the f*** up, man!"

On a side note, speaking of favourite fromtmen, I would add Freddie Mercury to the bunch. Now, talk about stage presence(imho, anyways)!

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 04, 2015, 07:59:21 AM
Or let's compare all frontmen to the Green Day guy who is drunk on stage the whole time and smashing his guitar while cursing at his fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jjfumbly on October 04, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is the best Dream Theater album, with Black Clouds and Silver linings in second place. Awake among the worst in their repertoire.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 04, 2015, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: jjfumbly on October 04, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is the best Dream Theater album, with Black Clouds and Silver linings in second place. Awake among the worst in their repertoire.
You've probably lost quite a few people towards the end, but Six Degrees is a very common #1 among fans, at least on this forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 05, 2015, 06:30:50 AM
Quote from: jjfumbly on October 04, 2015, 08:35:57 PM
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is the best Dream Theater album, with Black Clouds and Silver linings in second place. Awake among the worst in their repertoire.
I agree with SDOIT and Awake, but I find it really hard to place BC&SL, I like every song on it, but it doesn't come to mind as one of the best albums for some reason, maybe because I don't find it enjoyable in its entirety, bad flow possibly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 05, 2015, 06:48:33 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on October 04, 2015, 02:19:31 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 03, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
I agree with JLa that LaBrie has too many live moments where he talks over music at the wrong times.  You have to know when and where to pick your spots, and too often, James talks at the wrong time.

Agreed. That's what buggers me the most about JLB too, as much as I love the man as a singer. Sometimes, I just want to say : "Shut the f*** up, man!"

On a side note, speaking of favourite fromtmen, I would add Freddie Mercury to the bunch. Now, talk about stage presence(imho, anyways)!

B.Lee

No arguments with Mercury (look how he owned the stage at Live Aid, my first time seeing him actually perform).  The "Best Frontman" conversation cannot be had without Bruce Dickinson somewhere in the mix.   I personally put him at greatest metal frontman of all time (and it isn't close) and in the top three, MAYBE five rock in general.  For "rock", Bono has to be there too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 05, 2015, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: JLa on October 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM
JLB needs to shut up. No, not from singing, but in (live) situations where the band has this awesome groove/riff/metal/ thing going, he far too often tries to get the crowd going by shouting "HEY! HEY! HEY!". Again and again, every single time! Ruins the whole thing. Now he ruined The Glass Prison from Gigantour for me.

James, no more "HEY!", OK?

For me, it's not just the "HEY".  I've already said here that I love his voice, it's the reason I noticed DT back in '91, and he's the one guy that if he left I would probably stop following DT, but having said that, he, along with Steve Perry of Journey, are the absolute worst at stage banter, and because of that stupid faux rock voice they use. "Hello Deeeee-troit, are you ready to raaawwwwwwkkkkkkkkk!" They sound like bad caricatures of DJ's from the 50's and 60's.  "Give it up fo a-mista John Petrucci who is gowna play a little blooze fo ya, now!"

Please.  Shut up and sing for gosh sakes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
Warning! This is some heavy stuff  :laugh:

Copying from posts I have made in another thread on another forum:

This reminds me of the time I told my Dream Theater-loving friend that Awake is overblown, overlong, brooding piece of sh*t, pompous even for DT standards, full of boy-bandish choruses (Innocence Faded, Caught in a Web) and half-assed ballads (The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream) and that Moore creepiness in the end that really even sounds to me like watching a stalker masturbate. Poor guy seemed to have something like a heart attack.  :biggrin:
I have since come to like the album quite a lot, but the friendship never quite recovered.

And then:

I don't know what it is that makes Awake of all things the sacred cow of Dream Theater albums, while most people completely overlook Falling into Infinity or When Dreams and Day Unite.
Like I said, I have come to like the album a lot, but some of my previous criticisms still stand (the ballads are really so-so and - for example - Hollow Years' so much better I can't even) and overall it still sounds to me like a very incoherent and inconsistent album. And Space-Dye Vest has no business being there at all, IMHO.
It's funny how everyone dislikes audio clips in latter part of DT's career, yet they don't mind it here, for example.
And The Mirror/Lie is Dream Theater's Acacia Avenue - a song I could hear another 100 000 times and I still wouldn't remember how it goes.
Plus the album's definitely overlong - the much longer FII or SC seem to me much shorter, subjectively. When the second half of the record comes around, I just feel like it's a very long ride.
As far as I'm concerned, I nowadays go crazy about Scarred, Caught in a Web and mostly all of AMBI, cheesy as The Silent Man is. I have also developed a weak spot for Innocence Faded, since it's my wife's favourite early DT song.
But I don't get what makes this the masterpiece to end all masterpieces. Honestly, no trolling here.

Like I said, this is some heavy stuff.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 07, 2015, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
But I don't get what makes this the masterpiece to end all masterpieces. Honestly, no trolling here.

Between the fandom, that's the status of Images and Words, not Awake.

But Awake is up there within the top 4 generally and i agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 07, 2015, 05:28:19 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
Warning! This is some heavy stuff  :laugh:

Copying from posts I have made in another thread on another forum:

This reminds me of the time I told my Dream Theater-loving friend that Awake is overblown, overlong, brooding piece of sh*t, pompous even for DT standards, full of boy-bandish choruses (Innocence Faded, Caught in a Web) and half-assed ballads (The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream) and that Moore creepiness in the end that really even sounds to me like watching a stalker masturbate. Poor guy seemed to have something like a heart attack.  :biggrin:
I have since come to like the album quite a lot, but the friendship never quite recovered.

And then:

I don't know what it is that makes Awake of all things the sacred cow of Dream Theater albums, while most people completely overlook Falling into Infinity or When Dreams and Day Unite.
Like I said, I have come to like the album a lot, but some of my previous criticisms still stand (the ballads are really so-so and - for example - Hollow Years' so much better I can't even) and overall it still sounds to me like a very incoherent and inconsistent album. And Space-Dye Vest has no business being there at all, IMHO.
It's funny how everyone dislikes audio clips in latter part of DT's career, yet they don't mind it here, for example.
And The Mirror/Lie is Dream Theater's Acacia Avenue - a song I could hear another 100 000 times and I still wouldn't remember how it goes.
Plus the album's definitely overlong - the much longer FII or SC seem to me much shorter, subjectively. When the second half of the record comes around, I just feel like it's a very long ride.
As far as I'm concerned, I nowadays go crazy about Scarred, Caught in a Web and mostly all of AMBI, cheesy as The Silent Man is. I have also developed a weak spot for Innocence Faded, since it's my wife's favourite early DT song.
But I don't get what makes this the masterpiece to end all masterpieces. Honestly, no trolling here.

Like I said, this is some heavy stuff.  ;D

Yeah, after the most recent general consensus on top DT albums Awake came out on #4 I believe, but still pretty close to #5, although I agree with you mostly. Awake is one of my least favorite albums, but I will never criticize Space-Dye Vest,






never.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on October 07, 2015, 06:16:18 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
Warning! This is some heavy stuff  :laugh:

Copying from posts I have made in another thread on another forum:



Feel like I've read this before.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on October 07, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 07, 2015, 05:28:19 PM
but I will never criticize Space-Dye Vest,






never.

I will! It's slow, monotonous, repetitive and boring. It truly is the black sheep of the DT library of songs. I often don't listen to Awake because I know it'll just end on a sour note.  :laugh: Also, boring to play, no wonder Jordan got bored with this song on the JLB duo version. Arguably this would have been the best version imo with those additions from JR... - If JP hadn't stolen the show with his guitar solo in the recent live versions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on October 07, 2015, 06:35:36 PM
it's good whenever there isn't some silly movie quote happening
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 07, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
Space Dye Vest is really good, but I really never got the Awake fascination either. It's a solid album, probably around the middle of their discography in my ranking, but it was released in between two superior albums.

I don't get the fascination with Erotomania. It's a good instrumental but not mind-blowing. The whole The Mirror/Lie/Lifting Shadows swing is overrated as well.

Overall, it has some great songs in Voices, Scarred and Space Dye Vest, and some very good ones in the first three. That's enough to earn the #7 or so ranking for me, but nothing more. The one before, the two after, and the three most recent ones at minimum are better than Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on October 07, 2015, 09:48:12 PM
Space-Dye Vest is one of my least favorite DT songs. I seriously don't understand the love for it. The fact that it ends Awake keeps that album down in the bottom half of their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on October 08, 2015, 12:25:42 AM
Quote from: Mosh on October 07, 2015, 06:16:18 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
Warning! This is some heavy stuff  :laugh:

Copying from posts I have made in another thread on another forum:



Feel like I've read this before.  ;)

No, sir, that's simply not possible!  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 08, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Quote from: matthewmatt on October 07, 2015, 03:44:17 PM
SC avatar

Your opinion is invalid, therefore it cannot hurt me! AWAKE 4LIFE! :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 08, 2015, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on October 07, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
I will! It's slow, monotonous, repetitive and boring. It truly is the black sheep of the DT library of songs. I often don't listen to Awake because I know it'll just end on a sour note.  :laugh: Also, boring to play, no wonder Jordan got bored with this song on the JLB duo version. Arguably this would have been the best version imo with those additions from JR... - If JP hadn't stolen the show with his guitar solo in the recent live versions.

no
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on October 08, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Actually, I think if you cut the first three songs from Awake, it can be one of my favourites from DT.

Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 08, 2015, 01:04:52 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on October 07, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
I will! It's slow, monotonous, repetitive and boring. It truly is the black sheep of the DT library of songs. I often don't listen to Awake because I know it'll just end on a sour note.  :laugh: Also, boring to play, no wonder Jordan got bored with this song on the JLB duo version. Arguably this would have been the best version imo with those additions from JR... - If JP hadn't stolen the show with his guitar solo in the recent live versions.

no

No indeed.

Quote from: 425 on October 07, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
I don't get the fascination with Erotomania. It's a good instrumental but not mind-blowing.

I agree.

Quote from: 425 on October 07, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
The whole The Mirror/Lie/Lifting Shadows swing is overrated as well.

I don't agree. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on October 08, 2015, 01:18:53 PM
Erotomania is good but not the best DT instrumental. Hell's Kitchen is.
Apparently it might be controversial now to say that Awake is your favorite DT album?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 08, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Erotomania is recognizable, has nice riffs, melody (something JP abd JR have forgotten about as of late) and just  feels like a coherent piece of music. Unlike Enigma Machine for instance, which to me is only "lol betya can't play this" and nothing else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 08, 2015, 02:43:10 PM
Sure, Erotomania "feels like a coherent piece of music." It's a good song. But Stream of Consciousness is about 40 or 50 times better. I would also rank Eve, Overture 1928 and maybe Hell's Kitchen ahead of Erotomania.

And Enigma Machine is definitely a coherent piece of music.






Quote from: Evermind on October 08, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 07, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
The whole The Mirror/Lie/Lifting Shadows swing is overrated as well.

I don't agree. :lol

:lol

It's not that I think they're bad songs (well, I don't care for Lie all that much), but I just don't get why people seem to like them as much as they do. I listen to The Mirror, and I think "this is fairly good," not "wow top 25 DT song." Same thing with LSOAD.

I think Awake is a good album, for sure. But I don't think it's one of their best. It was their second-best in 1994, but did not rise above the rank of second-worst until 2002. Let's see if anybody comments on that oh-so-subtle dig.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on October 08, 2015, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: abydos on October 08, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Unlike Enigma Machine for instance, which to me is only "lol betya can't play this" and nothing else.
Well, there's obviously an element of showmanship to the piece, but with the focus on a clear structure, spy themes, dynamic shifts, catchy riffs and how they break up the solo sections I struggle to see how the song is that shallow. It's also easily the heaviest song on the album (and possibly the heaviest in their discography) and plays a very clear role in the tracklist of DT12 (as well as BtFW, just replace TBP with AftR) as the peak of intensity before the introspection of TBP. To me, it sounds like a fun and energetic ride and has me going :metal every time I listen to it.

Also:
Quote from: abydos on October 08, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
(something JP abd JR have forgotten about as of late)
eh? ???
I understand that there are people who aren't a fan of the last two albums and that's fine, but this complaint baffles me all the time. Enigma Machine DOES have melody, but it may not be explicitly singable (even though the main riffs have been in my head since its release). Chromatic, angular and abrasive melodies aren't inherently more or less melodic than the consonant and smooth melodies in the middle of Erotomania (where it fits in with its theme, as with Enigma Machine), its just a different kind of melodic. Even if Enigma Machine isn't melodic by typical standards, The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason and Along for the Ride most definitely are for both John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess.

Also being a coherent piece of music isn't something difficult to do and shouldn't really be applauded. Incoherency isn't a bad thing either, as I would call The Dance of Eternity, the middle sections of Metropolis and Outcry and the instrumental section of Octavarium before Intervals all incoherent, yet hugely enjoyable and fit the song / album they feature in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 08, 2015, 02:54:54 PM
I agree with you, partly. I think each instrumental has a different purposes.
SoC is the MOST bad@$$ out of all the instrumentals while Hells kitchen is the most passionate.
The Enigma machine is just a raw powerhouse that puts you in the correct mood for the rest of the album.
Erotomania, I loved it very much, especially the part where Moore plays a sweet sweet melody while Petrucci riffs. It's an intro to the mind beside itself and it just brings you...errr pleasure I guess, because of the title.

Well, I give Mirror it's credit because it is technically the first song about Portnoy's alcoholic problem. But I agree, it is in the top 50 as there are better songs. Also, Lie is a really good song especially how Labrie does his vocals in the beginning. The ending is the repeat of the mirrors theme with a sweet Petrucci solo. And Lifting Shadows is a sweet Myung song that is extremely deep. I love the calm soothing feeling it gives. They are all good songs, I wouldn't call them overrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 08, 2015, 02:57:22 PM
I personally rated Enigma way higher than Erotomania, while Enigma has in my opinion some nice catchy riffs, the Erotomania main riff just plain annoyed me from the beginning up until now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 08, 2015, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 08, 2015, 02:57:22 PM
I personally rated Enigma way higher than Erotomania, while Enigma has in my opinion some nice catchy riffs, the Erotomania main riff just plain annoyed me from the beginning up until now.
What about Moore and Rudess playing the theme of the silent man? And Petrucci's solo near the end?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 08, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
Nearly nothing by Moore on his Dream Theater contribution has disappointed me, including his solo sections on Erotomania, and I like Petrucci's ending solo aswell, but dat main riff mangggg. This song definitely gets better from the The Silent Man part up untl the end though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on October 08, 2015, 06:51:03 PM
All of this talk about which instrumental is best and somehow The Dance of Eternity wasn't mentioned once. As far as I'm concerned, that is by far their best instrumental. It's 6 minutes of pure insanity and every last second of it is perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 08, 2015, 06:53:49 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on October 08, 2015, 06:51:03 PM
All of this talk about which instrumental is best and somehow The Dance of Eternity wasn't mentioned once. As far as I'm concerned, that is by far their best instrumental. It's 6 minutes of pure insanity and every last second of it is perfect.
Well the best at being technical, but in terms of passion, it would be hells kitchen and in terms of bad@$$ery (not sure If that's a word) it'd be SoC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 08, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on October 08, 2015, 06:51:03 PM
All of this talk about which instrumental is best and somehow The Dance of Eternity wasn't mentioned once. As far as I'm concerned, that is by far their best instrumental. It's 6 minutes of pure insanity and every last second of it is perfect.

Probably because it's one of their least best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on October 08, 2015, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 08, 2015, 03:02:38 PM
Nearly nothing by Moore on his Dream Theater contribution has disappointed me, including his solo sections on Erotomania, and I like Petrucci's ending solo aswell, but dat main riff mangggg. This song definitely gets better from the The Silent Man part up untl the end though.

Yeah, that main riff and the keyboard tone is just grating. Sure, the song gets better near the end, but that's not even half of the song. I'd take Enigma Machine over Erotomania any day.

But yes, The Dance of Eternity blows everything else out of the water.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 08, 2015, 11:53:48 PM
I wouldn't say it's underrated, because whenever people talk about it it's all positive things, but I think Stream of Consciousness should be mentioned more. To me it's definitely their best instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 09, 2015, 02:09:13 AM
There was a time where I thought Stream of Consciousness went on for way too long and got boring near the end, bu that's all in the past, favorite instrumental by far, followed by Dance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 09, 2015, 09:54:59 AM
INSTRUMENTAL RANKING TIME:

Stream of Consciousness
Erotomania
Eve
Hells Kitchen
Ytsejam
Enigma Machine
Overture:1928
The Dance of Eternity
False Awakening Suite
Raw Dog
Overture


I love SoC since I first watched Budakon. Erotomania I love Moores keyboard tones and melodies, plus JP's tone as well. Eve is just a thing of beauty.

The rest are equally good as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2015, 10:20:23 AM
WHERE IS RAW DOG
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on October 09, 2015, 10:23:07 AM
Here's mine:

The Dance of Eternity
Stream of Consciousness
Erotomania
Overture 1928
False Awakening Suite
Ytse Jam
Hell's Kitchen
Raw Dog
Enigma Machine
Eve
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 09, 2015, 11:08:04 AM
Stream of Consciousness
Hell's Kitchen
The Dance of Eternity
Overture 1928
Erotomania
Ytse Jam
Eve
Raw Dog
Overture



Enigma Machine
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 09, 2015, 11:12:46 AM
We're doing this?

Raw Dog
Stream of Consciousness
Eve
Overture 1928
Hell's Kitchen
Erotomania
False Awakening Suite
The Dance of Eternity
Ytse Jam
Enigma Machine

Overture does not count because it is not an instrumental. It is part of a song that has vocals. The Darkest of Winters does not belong on a ranking of instrumentals, either.


Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2015, 10:20:23 AM
WHERE IS RAW DOG

I thought it was assumed to be at the top and I didn't even have to type it? Oh well, I typed it just for you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2015, 11:25:42 AM
I knew it.

You are a crazy person.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on October 09, 2015, 11:35:11 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 08, 2015, 02:43:10 PM
Sure, Erotomania "feels like a coherent piece of music." It's a good song. But Stream of Consciousness is about 40 or 50 times better.

No. Just no. Erotomania >>> SoC.

... I might be biased because Erotomania was the song that got me into DT in the first place...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on October 09, 2015, 11:47:28 AM
I'd like to see an album by them that's very Iron Maiden influenced. Just like most of their stuff is very Rush and Yes inspired, ToT is very Tool and Metallica inspired, I'd love to see them do an album Maiden inspired.

Considering they're Dream Theater, it would probably end up being more like newer progressive Maiden, which is my favorite actually. It would have to be rawer then their usual style, and of course would have way longer instrumental passages then anything you'd hear from Maiden. I predict an Iron Maiden inspired DT album would end up sounding a lot like Awake, except with longer songs with longer instrumental passages, and more lyrics similar to the lyrics of The Count of Tuscany and lyrics like what's on Systematic Chaos. Would be awesome. I wish DT would experiment more like this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on October 09, 2015, 11:55:31 AM
Quote from: NotePad on October 09, 2015, 11:47:28 AM
I'd like to see an album by them that's very Iron Maiden influenced. Just like most of their stuff is very Rush and Yes inspired, ToT is very Tool and Metallica inspired, I'd love to see them do an album Maiden inspired.

Considering they're Dream Theater, it would probably end up being more like newer progressive Maiden, which is my favorite actually. It would have to be rawer then their usual style, and of course would have way longer instrumental passages then anything you'd hear from Maiden. I predict an Iron Maiden inspired DT album would end up sounding a lot like Awake, except with longer songs with longer instrumental passages, and more lyrics similar to the lyrics of The Count of Tuscany and lyrics like what's on Systematic Chaos. Would be awesome. I wish DT would experiment more like this.

Er, no, just no, if it means them sounding like SC or TCoT again.

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 09, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Why? Iron Maiden is just Metallica/Megadeth but bland, without the riffs. They purely exist so BD can waste his talent on them. Nothing in Awake sounds like anything I've heard in IM, so I doubt that very much. If anything, something inspired by Helloween's The Dark Ride or Time of the Oath would sound more like Awake, imo.

Oh, this is not the controversial opinions on IM thread... oops! :) Oh, and I'd rather see DT disband than produce another album with lyrics like TCOT/SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 09, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
So I take it I'm the only one who thinks SoC goes on for way too long? I actually prefer some of the fan-made versions of it to the real version.
How someone can say Enigma Machine isn't melodic and is just technical for the sake of it, I don't know. Especially compared to TDOE. Don't get me wrong, TDOE is cool, I'm just saying Enigma Machine is by far much more melodic and catchy if that's how we're going to look at these instrumentals.
And if we're going to talk about the most passionate and emotional ones, Eve has to be in there. That is an absolutely beautiful song, no faults whatsoever IMO...I love Hell's Kitchen too but Eve is definitely my favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2015, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: pcs90 on October 09, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
So I take it I'm the only one who thinks SoC goes on for way too long?
Nope.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on October 09, 2015, 10:48:06 PM
It took me a very long time to be able to listen to SC in full past Repentance. Very exhausting album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 10, 2015, 05:00:51 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2015, 11:25:42 AM
I knew it.

You are a crazy person.

I'm glad my decision to not use green text paid off.




Quote from: abydos on October 09, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Why? Iron Maiden is just Metallica/Megadeth but bland, without the riffs. They purely exist so BD can waste his talent on them.

I mean, opinions, but Iron Maiden has more great riffs than Metallica and Megadeth combined... Those two have a handful of great albums between them (RTL, AJFA, RIP, Endgame) and Iron Maiden has like eight.

But opinions. And I agree that DT shouldn't try to copy Iron Maiden, there's no point, we already have an Iron Maiden.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 10, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
Imho both Iron Maiden and Metallica (especially Iron Maiden) are boring and if the next DT album sounds anything like them, I wouldn't get it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on October 11, 2015, 10:12:13 PM
My controversial opinion is, man, this is the first time in their history where I won't even check the forum for a week or more. IMHO their complete lack of communication is backfiring on them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SS_0086 on October 12, 2015, 04:16:55 AM
The Dance of Eternity
Overture:1928
Erotomania
Hells Kitchen
Stream of Consciousness
Overture
Eve
Ytsejam
False Awakening Suite
Enigma Machine
Raw Dog
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 12, 2015, 04:30:23 AM

The Dance of Eternity
Stream of Consciousness
Hells Kitchen
Enigma Machine
Overture:1928
False Awakening Suite
Eve
Ytse Jam
Erotomania
Raw Dog
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Paddies on October 12, 2015, 06:08:44 AM
For me it would be something like this at this moment:

Scene Two: Overture 1928 (well balanced, great melodies, sets me up for the album)
Eve (Kevin Moore's golden touch, really dreamy)
Hells Kitchen (atmospheric, great build up/crescendo, slightly weird as a stand alone track, but still beautiful)
Erotomania (groovy, melodic, cool changes, great solo's)
Ytse Jam (energetic, cool changes)
The Dance of Eternity (impressive)
Enigma Machine (nice and short, love the breakdown)
Stream of Consciousness (love the first part and main riff, but after that it gets boring really fast, just a lot of notes)
False Awakening Suite (skip it almost every time)
Raw Dog (really doesn't do anything for me)

If Instrumedley was included it would be sitting somewhere in the middle with The Dance Of Eternity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 12, 2015, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 09, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Why? Iron Maiden is just Metallica/Megadeth but bland, without the riffs. They purely exist so BD can waste his talent on them. Nothing in Awake sounds like anything I've heard in IM, so I doubt that very much. If anything, something inspired by Helloween's The Dark Ride or Time of the Oath would sound more like Awake, imo.

Oh, this is not the controversial opinions on IM thread... oops! :) Oh, and I'd rather see DT disband than produce another album with lyrics like TCOT/SC.

Here's a controversial opinion:  Metallica and Megadeth are Maiden without the amazing melodies, awesome twin (triple!!) guitar runs, and (in Megadeath's case), a vocalist who can sing.

I like Metallica a fair amount from The Black Album on, when they learned to write songs instead of stringing riffs together, and there is no doubt of their place in music history (anyone who doubts that, go on Utoob and look up their performance on Later... with Jools Holland.   All the bands are in a circle, and 99 times out of 100, the other bands just sit quietly while the one band performs; during "Cyanide" and especially "Enter Sandman", all the other bands - and I'm not talking metal bands; one was an Adele clone from New Jersey! - were standing and dancing and clapping... one guy was even playing along on his guitar (though it was not miked or amped).  Amazing how they infused energy into that studio!).   But "riffs" are not the sole standard by which bands are judged. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 12, 2015, 08:37:03 AM
I thought Metallica wrote better songs when they didn't know how to write songs (Kill em All through The Black Album)  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 12, 2015, 08:38:47 AM
Last time I checked, "DT" didn't stand for Metallica of Iron Maiden. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 12, 2015, 08:43:16 AM
My controversial opinion on DT is that The Outlaw Torn is the most underrated Metallica song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on October 12, 2015, 09:47:31 AM
Here's something that may or may not be controversial.

Despite being the most successful and important progressive metal band, I feel that Dream Theater's heavier songs usually aren't anywhere near as good as their more prog rock songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on October 13, 2015, 04:50:45 PM
Awake is the most creative album they ever made. I don't know if that's controversial, but I feel it's by far their best effort. A big improvement over Images & Words.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on October 13, 2015, 06:48:44 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 08, 2015, 02:57:22 PM
I personally rated Enigma way higher than Erotomania, while Enigma has in my opinion some nice catchy riffs, the Erotomania main riff just plain annoyed me from the beginning up until now.

Erotomania intro feels unsettling. It may well be the intention but for me those dissonant chords seem to give an uneasy feeling. Or maybe it's because it reminds me of the battle music from Grandia. XD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 15, 2015, 06:10:19 AM
Speaking of Enigma (the band), the song called "Why" sounds like James singing it. I think he would fit perfectly well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Re8jzTpOM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on October 15, 2015, 06:17:59 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on October 12, 2015, 09:47:31 AM
Here's something that may or may not be controversial.

Despite being the most successful and important progressive metal band, I feel that Dream Theater's heavier songs usually aren't anywhere near as good as their more prog rock songs.

I agree with this 100%.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Not really controversial, but a very minor criticism... I think the original plan on how to name the first album with Mike Mangini was better, the album should have been called Bridges in the Sky and the song that now has that name should have been called The Shaman's Trance.

Pro's of this choice:
- The cover fits the title (IIRC that was the original plan, the cover is that way because the name was meant to be Bridges in the Sky)
- The band wouldn't have had to explain in every interview that the title was not slang for "Dammit Portnoy's gone"
- You'd have a badass song with a badass title, I love "The Shaman's Trance" as a title, I don't find it cheesy at all and the song is serious
- When you reach the climax of the song, that beautiful musical passage, you'd hear "Crossing bridges in the sky" and the mentioning of the actual album title in that moment would have been so powerful. It's still the title of the song, but if it was the title of the album, it would have been even better, the symbolic pinnacle of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 23, 2015, 01:04:00 PM
You forgot the biggest pro, DT would finally have a studio album containing the word 'the'.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 23, 2015, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Not really controversial, but a very minor criticism... I think the original plan on how to name the first album with Mike Mangini was better, the album should have been called Bridges in the Sky and the song that now has that name should have been called The Shaman's Trance.
I really like your reasoning behind this. I just wish it was some other title besides "The Shaman's Trance." Just not a fan of that title.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SoundscapeMN on October 23, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
The A Change of Seasoms "Please Don't Go" demo is a fair amount better than any other version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 23, 2015, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: SoundscapeMN on October 23, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
The A Change of Seasons.

I prefer the title they went with. :hat

And it made them realise never to put the word " the " in an album title from then on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 23, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 23, 2015, 12:47:33 PM
Not really controversial, but a very minor criticism... I think the original plan on how to name the first album with Mike Mangini was better, the album should have been called Bridges in the Sky and the song that now has that name should have been called The Shaman's Trance.

Pro's of this choice:
- The cover fits the title (IIRC that was the original plan, the cover is that way because the name was meant to be Bridges in the Sky)
- The band wouldn't have had to explain in every interview that the title was not slang for "Dammit Portnoy's gone"
- You'd have a badass song with a badass title, I love "The Shaman's Trance" as a title, I don't find it cheesy at all and the song is serious
- When you reach the climax of the song, that beautiful musical passage, you'd hear "Crossing bridges in the sky" and the mentioning of the actual album title in that moment would have been so powerful. It's still the title of the song, but if it was the title of the album, it would have been even better, the symbolic pinnacle of the album.

I understand the reasoning here, but I love the title A Dramatic Turn of Events (and whether it refers to Portnoy leaving or not, I always think of it that way), so I'm happy with things the way they turned out with that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 24, 2015, 04:55:15 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
We will get along just fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 24, 2015, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

ADTOE is underrated.

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other.


All of this but

 Personality wise I prefer Mangini. Playing wise I preferred Portnoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 24, 2015, 11:31:27 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
I'm curious, what makes you like SC more than Images, FII, SFAM, SDOIT, ToT?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on October 24, 2015, 11:46:36 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 11:31:27 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
I'm curious, what makes you like SC more than Images, FII, SFAM, SDOIT, ToT?

Totally seconded on this one. I would like to know as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 24, 2015, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

It's pretty good, but not as great as a lot of people think.

Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated.

Yep! Maybe we're a match?

Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

Nope.

Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
I don't really prefer either Mike over the other

Nope. Not a match.

Welcome, by the way! :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Invisible on October 24, 2015, 12:34:36 PM
Not sure how contorversial is this, but I'm just going to dump it here:

One of the reasons I tend to like the I&W-FII run over any other is the jazzy-improv elements of the band that were progresivelly being less and less prominent in further albums. I also think the compositions up until Six Degrees(including this album) were more "flexible", as it gave room for little jams or even slight variations in a live setting, while from there onwards, DT's composition started to be more rigid, as in having to be played exactly note for note for the whole thing to work, and more "classical", expecially since Rudess came on board but I don't think it's because of him(Beyond This Life is a great example of a non rigid song, especially the Budokan version, so is Solitary Shell with the improvs in the middle). I sort of feel the band became more and more about tight performances and reproducing the album and less "free" so to speak.

I also love Rudess soloing when it's on the piano, as oposed when he goes "hi-tech" with weird sounds at crazy speeds.

Oh, and Cleaning Out The Closet is a great album, despite the production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
Quote from: Bertielee on October 24, 2015, 11:46:36 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 11:31:27 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
I'm curious, what makes you like SC more than Images, FII, SFAM, SDOIT, ToT?

Totally seconded on this one. I would like to know as well.
Maybe I can help a bit. You see, SC is a very good album and very underrated. Shouldn't deserve hate just because most of the songs are "fiction." SC is not heavy like ToT and offers more variety. Images is all soft and you can't consider any song there to be dark. It's not badass. Don't get me started on FII. Attempt to be mainstream, I can understand why SC would be better than FII. Now SDOIT and SFAM, they are really good, but I'd have to say that it's more fun to listen to. Hell, it houses 3 epics, TMOL, ITPOE, and Repetance. Repetance is the MOST unique of all the suite and the other 2 epics are just mindblowing. Forsaken and Night are 2 fun albums to listen to as CM is badass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on October 24, 2015, 02:08:19 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
Quote from: Bertielee on October 24, 2015, 11:46:36 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 11:31:27 AM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I don't really prefer either Mike over the other
I'm curious, what makes you like SC more than Images, FII, SFAM, SDOIT, ToT?

Totally seconded on this one. I would like to know as well.
Maybe I can help a bit. You see, SC is a very good album and very underrated. Shouldn't deserve hate just because most of the songs are "fiction." SC is not heavy like ToT and offers more variety. Images is all soft and you can't consider any song there to be dark. It's not badass. Don't get me started on FII. Attempt to be mainstream, I can understand why SC would be better than FII. Now SDOIT and SFAM, they are really good, but I'd have to say that it's more fun to listen to. Hell, it houses 3 epics, TMOL, ITPOE, and Repetance. Repetance is the MOST unique of all the suite and the other 2 epics are just mindblowing. Forsaken and Night are 2 fun albums to listen to as CM is badass.

SC is one of my favorite albums too, so I'll +1 most of your write-up, although I really dislike Repentance, it's just too stretched out to me. Focussing on the rest of the songs, this album has the most badass riff (TDEN outro), most badass JR solo (CM), and one of the most unique instrumentations overall. Now whether that's a positive thing or not is completely subjective, for me, hell yeezers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on October 24, 2015, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
Maybe I can help a bit. You see, SC is a very good album and very underrated. Shouldn't deserve hate just because most of the songs are "fiction."

That isn't the reason people hate it, they just think isn't too much good of an album, which i agree.

Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
Awake is really not that great of an album

On the contrary, ADTOE is underrated. It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

Awake isn't even my favorite album but it certainly wipes the floor with ADTOE or SC. The songwriting is simply miles better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on October 24, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
repentance is the best song on SC tbh  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 24, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: Invisible on October 24, 2015, 12:34:36 PM
One of the reasons I tend to like the I&W-FII run over any other is the jazzy-improv elements of the band that were progresivelly being less and less prominent in further albums. I also think the compositions up until Six Degrees(including this album) were more "flexible", as it gave room for little jams or even slight variations in a live setting, while from there onwards, DT's composition started to be more rigid, as in having to be played exactly note for note for the whole thing to work, and more "classical", expecially since Rudess came on board but I don't think it's because of him(Beyond This Life is a great example of a non rigid song, especially the Budokan version, so is Solitary Shell with the improvs in the middle). I sort of feel the band became more and more about tight performances and reproducing the album and less "free" so to speak.
I don't believe it's because of JR. He's improvised some absolutely amazing stuff over the years in various contexts. I would say he may have brought some more classical influences to the band, but I wouldn't say he's the reason for less improvisational sections. But I do agree that there needs to be more of them. I always enjoyed the jazzier elements. And I wouldn't say the newer songs couldn't be extended either, it's just that they aren't adding anything in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 24, 2015, 05:16:43 PM
Quote from: Parama on October 24, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
repentance is the best song on SC tbh  :lol

This is Controversial opinions - not blatantly wrong opinions ! :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on October 24, 2015, 05:31:44 PM
I wish they'd just play Repentance at 2016 tours to add mood.
It's such an euphoric and beautiful moment. If played live, it would be a beautiful moment while the whole audiente takes each other's hands and looks at the sky, while the "Aaaaaaaaaah" and the piano and the narrations take place, such an emotive and unique moment...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on October 24, 2015, 05:39:26 PM
Repentance is one of the best songs on SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2015, 07:43:25 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on October 12, 2015, 08:43:16 AM
My controversial opinion on DT is that The Outlaw Torn is the most underrated Metallica song.

!!!!  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

But about Dream Theater...

Never Enough is the best song on Octavarium... does that count?  :hefdaddy

Quote from: Tomislav95 on October 24, 2015, 05:39:26 PM
Repentance is one of the best songs on SC.

Agreeing also with this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:15:43 PM
To all who think Repetance is weak. Compared to Mikes other songs on the suite, Repetance is the MOST unique. All the others are heavy, but repetance takes it to a new level.
Also do any of you think that the glass prison is the weakest? Then it's TSF.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2015, 08:20:41 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:15:43 PM
Also do any of you think that the glass prison is the weakest? Then it's TSF.

Yupp. It´s just borrowing parts of other 12-step-suit-songs.


The Glass Prison kicks major ass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:26:48 PM
I agree with TSF, but I think Glass prison is the weakest and messiest. The Portnoy vocals at the beginning just irk me as labrie is all over the place. Riff gets annoying also, and the main reason is portnoy and his dang vocals. The, "HEY! HEY! HEY!" part also gets under my skin. The ending is the only reason I like it while the other suites are more appealing in many different ways.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2015, 08:29:57 PM
Maybe my love for TGP is mostly about nostalgia, but it was one of the first DT songs I fell in love with.

There are not so many songs that kick ass like The Glass Prison does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:34:42 PM
I understand and respect your opinion.
But doesn't This dying soul, ITNOG, kick @$$ also?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2015, 08:39:21 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:34:42 PM
I understand and respect your opinion.
But doesn't This dying soul, ITNOG, kick @$$ also?

You're meaning my opinion?

They are good songs, but have overly long instrumental sections. They have good sections, but as a whole they are too long and go on for unnecessarily long.

But that´s just my opinion. ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:51:14 PM
Ah, I understand. Thanks for sharing your opinion, but if they are overly long, what about Octavarium? Badass and perfectly needed like Petrucci's solo and rudess. That song was good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 24, 2015, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 08:51:14 PM
Ah, I understand. Thanks for sharing your opinion, but if they are overly long, what about Octavarium? Badass and perfectly needed like Petrucci's solo and rudess. That song was good.

I don´t like Octavarium neither, :rollin

Again, just my opinion. Intervals is one of the most intense moments in any DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 24, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
Octavarium, after editing out all the bad parts, becomes a nice 10 minute song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 24, 2015, 09:08:28 PM
@Rulba: Really? Why don't you like it? And I agree, Intervals is intense.
@Abydos: 10 mins? What part of the song would you cut off?I'm guessing the extremely long intro?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 24, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
I don't remember exactly since I did that years ago, but basically the most of the intro, most likely half the instrumental sections (mostly Rudess parts) and stuff like that. I could make a list but I don't want to ruin the taste in my mouth, I just went through ACOS and it was amazing :).

edit: also, cut Razor's Edge, or w/e the part after the last Octavarium is called by 50 or 100%. It ruins the climax, and while it's not bad in itself, I don't like how it fits into the ending. And it's a bit too long
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on October 25, 2015, 07:16:38 AM

[/quote]
I'm curious, what makes you like SC more than Images, FII, SFAM, SDOIT, ToT?
[/quote]

Well, there's just something about SC. Lot of great riffs there. The concept of evil spirits is interesting. I fell in love with The Ministry of Lost Souls at the first listening. Constant Motion speaks to me because I suffer from the same kind of disorder. Repentance is the first Petrucci solo I ever learned and I'm currently trying to learn ITPOE part 1.
All in all it's really though for me to rank DT albums because each of them has good parts. SFAM is right there on my list after SC and ADTOE. FII is an attempt to make DT more mainstream and that's just not what they're about. I do like Images except for the poor sound quality, ToT has some incredible songs like ITNOG and SDOIT the song is definitely a masterpiece. I just prefer SC as a whole because there's not a song on that album that goes over my head. For example I don't really like The Great Debate or Blind Faith from SDOIT even if I've tried. Some DT songs may just take more understanding of music than what I have. Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 25, 2015, 07:35:10 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
Octavarium, after editing out all the bad parts, becomes a nice 10 minute song.

I remember editing The Ministry of the Lost Souls, turning it into an 8 minute slow piece that is consistent in tone and style from beginning to end without having at all the random solo section that stretches it until 15 minutes. I know some people dislike that section (me included) and others think it's the best part of the song, so it's surely controversial  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 25, 2015, 07:42:29 AM
The instrumental section is the only decent part of TMOLS. The rest of the song drags SC down a ton.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on October 25, 2015, 09:06:54 AM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
Octavarium, after editing out all the bad parts, becomes a nice 24 minute song.
FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 25, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much
I find the differences between the two negligible.  Both are pretty bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 25, 2015, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: abydos on October 24, 2015, 09:14:26 PM
edit: also, cut Razor's Edge, or w/e the part after the last Octavarium is called by 50 or 100%. It ruins the climax, and while it's not bad in itself, I don't like how it fits into the ending. And it's a bit too long
What!? That's the best part of the whole song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 25, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much
I find the differences between the two negligible.  Both are pretty bad.
Well, YnM is pretty fun to listen to. Catchy chorus, one. of their most unique, if I say so myself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 25, 2015, 12:51:15 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 25, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
I find the differences between the two negligible.  Both are pretty bad.
I agree. A lot of other songs would have fit better on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 25, 2015, 01:32:46 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much

I agree, both songs are not the end of the world but You Not Me works for what it is, a shorter, catchier tune. Desmond Child served his purpouse, he took tje song and made it more concise and gave it a better chorus.

It's ironic how they brought a hit maker to make a song more "for the masses", and that song was never used a single and barely played live. In a three hour Evening With show I wouldn't even mind to hear it just for the novelty of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on October 25, 2015, 08:11:45 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 25, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much
I find the differences between the two negligible.

That (although I find both to be mediocre, not bad).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 25, 2015, 09:08:01 PM
The chorus is much better in You Not Me. Turns it from mediocre to decent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 25, 2015, 09:46:38 PM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 24, 2015, 03:44:33 AM
It's my favorite album along with Systematic Chaos

I like you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: XB0BX on October 25, 2015, 09:50:18 PM
Hell's Kitchen is 100% wasted on being an individual song. Should have been a climax to an epic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 25, 2015, 11:20:30 PM
Quote from: XB0BX on October 25, 2015, 09:50:18 PM
Hell's Kitchen is 100% wasted on being an individual song. Should have been a climax to an epic.

This might be right actually now that I think about it, since I rarely listen to it on its own.

Also, been a long time since I've seen you on here.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on October 26, 2015, 02:05:29 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 25, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Do any of you guys think You not Me is a much better songs than You or Me? I find YnM to be more cleaner and in one place while YoM is messy and doesn't appeal to me as much
I find the differences between the two negligible.  Both are pretty bad.
Well, YnM is pretty fun to listen to. Catchy chorus, one. of their most unique, if I say so myself.

Nah nah nah... YoM is waaay better. :D
YnM ruins the chorus and changes the entire context and meaning of the original song. While it's far from being the most mindblowing song DT has ever written, I think YoM had a lot more going for it than what happened to the album version, infact if they'd polished the song from the demo version (like the rest of the studio releases) without modifying it so much, I would say that the song might not have the reputation is has today. I'm just as likely completely wrong though and I understand JP was probably as much responsible as anyone for the changes. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 26, 2015, 07:37:03 AM
Controversial DT Opinion:  if it wasn't "Desmond Child" in the credits, we wouldn't be having these debates. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 26, 2015, 08:31:29 AM
See, to me, the You Not Me chorus is way better. The You Or Me chorus repeats the same melody and same sentiment. "It's you or me, and I can't see the difference" repeated at least twice. You Not Me, on the other hand, has a chorus that flows and is not nearly as repetitive. "It's all about you, not me, it's all about the things that you're expecting me to be" then we repeat the melody but with different words "There's not enough time to live and all that you're expecting me to give." The different lyrics and inflection make the chorus feel like it's a complete thing that flows from start to finish instead of a repeated line, which makes the song much stronger.

Neither song is a work of lyrical genius, so that's not really a factor for me. It's either about an angsty guy who's annoyed by the people around him or an angsty guy who's annoyed by a romantic partner. The words are mostly the same, except, again, the lyrics in the chorus are definitely better in You Not Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on October 26, 2015, 11:39:12 AM
The only thing that really bugs me about that song (and a couple of the songs on that record, to be honest) are the cheesy gang background vocals.   "It's all about YYYEEEEEEEEOOOOOOWWWWW, not MMMMMAAAAAAYYYYYYY."    You can really hear it on the making of CD (though I understand about listening to individual parts stand alone; it's the final song that bugs me).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on October 26, 2015, 12:07:47 PM
Octavarium is a great example of a good long Dream Theater song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on October 26, 2015, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: NotePad on October 26, 2015, 12:07:47 PM
Octavarium is a great example of a good long Dream Theater song.

Is that really controversial?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on October 26, 2015, 12:21:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2015, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: NotePad on October 26, 2015, 12:07:47 PM
Octavarium is a great example of a good long Dream Theater song.

Is that really controversial?  :lol

I don't think so. Do a lot of people really dislike that piece?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 26, 2015, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: V_R11 on October 26, 2015, 12:21:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on October 26, 2015, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: NotePad on October 26, 2015, 12:07:47 PM
Octavarium is a great example of a good long Dream Theater song.

Is that really controversial?  :lol

I don't think so. Do a lot of people really dislike that piece?
One thing I know is that people think Octavarium is one of the best dt songs ever next change of seasons. Well, that's what I hear people say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 26, 2015, 12:55:38 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on October 25, 2015, 12:35:44 PM
Well, YnM is pretty fun to listen to. Catchy chorus, one. of their most unique, if I say so myself.
Of course it is, since it's the only song they co-wrote with Desmond Child.   ;)
 
 
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 25, 2015, 01:32:46 PM
It's ironic how they brought a hit maker to make a song more "for the masses", and that song was never used a single and barely played live. In a three hour Evening With show I wouldn't even mind to hear it just for the novelty of it.
While YNM was never released as a commercial single (few of their songs ever were), it was released as a promo single. As for playing it live, obviously MP, who created the setlists when he was in the band, hated the song for what happened and I think because of this and the fact that the majority of the fanbase doesn't like the song are the reasons why it was never played more than a handful of times. However, he did talk about bringing YoM back for the next tour (which would've been for album #11, but having quit beforehand, never came to fruition).
 
 
Quote from: 425 on October 25, 2015, 09:08:01 PM
The chorus is much better in You Not Me. Turns it from mediocre to decent.
The chorus is better - that I'll agree. But the final song doesn't flow like it did in demo form. That whole stop-start thing with the chorus makes it feel like it's cut and paste between two separate songs. And the cutting out of the interlude before the guitar solo kills me. So I'll still choose YoM over YNM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on October 26, 2015, 08:40:50 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 26, 2015, 08:31:29 AM
See, to me, the You Not Me chorus is way better. The You Or Me chorus repeats the same melody and same sentiment. "It's you or me, and I can't see the difference" repeated at least twice. You Not Me, on the other hand, has a chorus that flows and is not nearly as repetitive.

Fair point, I'll give that the YNM chorus is certainly more melodically interesting. I'll also clarify, that while I'm saying the lyrics are better in YoM, it's only relative to YNM. It reversed the point entirely and looses the meaning of the original song. Obviously JP didn't have too much of a problem with this but as we get to hear the change, I can say I prefer the original. Also, I don't get the angsty vibe in YoM. It actually feels like that song is much more neutral, and compromising, insinuating there's little difference between me or you and if anything seems to be opposing the view that would see an extreme difference. But the final song actually seems to represent this view and just feels uncompromising and resentful, I think that vibe rubs me wrong way with YNM and so the other improvements melodically don't make up for it. Also, I love JLB singing in most cases but those are probably his worst backing vocals ever in YNM chorus.

Additional controversial opinion: When I think about it, some of his octave harmonies on FII, TOT and even SFAM are my least favourite things for JLB to do with his voice. Took a while for me to tolerate or appreciate those. :|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on October 27, 2015, 06:52:40 AM
The main guitar riff in YNM and the solo are great, but they are just outshined by the other amazing work on that album (2:40-3:08 and the outro are pure awesomeness). I also find the lyrics being a bit funny/ironic given the situation the band was in. It's a bit like the corporate Never Enough (but many times better than NE in every way).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on October 29, 2015, 08:03:40 AM
Quote from: Stadler on October 26, 2015, 07:37:03 AM
Controversial DT Opinion:  if it wasn't "Desmond Child" in the credits, we wouldn't be having these debates.

Absolutely true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 29, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
My controversial opinion for today is... well, Liquid Tension Experiment not only brought Jordan in the band, but also brought the attitude and the purpouse behind that project - compose and record on the fly - and this shows up especially during the solo sections of the songs, and it's not always a good thing.

DT always had crazy instrumental sections, but I feel that they always were fitting to the songs in the earlier albums. Let's sit around fake-playing Metropolis: one sings, another one makes guitar noises with his mouth, another one "drums" with chinese food sticks etc... I'm confident I could hum along my way through the *entire* solo section of that song, as long as it is. Play me a random solo section of any of the latter albums, especially the latest ones with Portnoy, and I seriously doubt I could recognize it on the fly, I think I could spend 30 seconds or even a minute without being able to say "Wait, it's this song".

And this because, IMHO of course, when it comes to write a solo section most of the times they don't come up with something fitting the mood of the song, but rather they turn the LTE light on, jam jam jam, riff riff riff, write write write and whatever comes up ends up being the solo section of the song. Take Endless Sacrifice for example, what's the point and purpouse of having a comedy circus break in the middle of a song about long distant relationships? it feels so random, and takes away from the mood of the song. When I hear Metropolis I'm immersed for 10 minutes in the atmosphere of Metropolis; when I hear The Ministry of Lost Souls I hear a slow melanchonic piece, then I feel thrown into an LTE jam session, and after 5 minutes I don't remember at all they suddenly go "ah, wait, we were singing about someone drowning or whatever".

This has improved in the two Mangini albums, and I hope the next record won't have many of these "Nevermind this song, enjoy this 4 minute jam that we came up the day we were recording the song" moments. And lucky the ones who enjoy them anyway, I'd add :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on October 29, 2015, 09:39:07 PM
Well, many times they write the instrumentals first before the lyrics, no? So if that is the case, it makes a bit more sense. Of course they could always cut or change the instrumental after they had lyrics, though. But honestly, I find the Metropolis instrumental boring and I don't remember half of it. I could certainly recognize it, but when I listen to that song that is actually my least favorite part...which is funny because I love instrumental stuff. I much prefer Outcry's instrumental that a lot of people on here seem to hate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on November 07, 2015, 08:50:51 AM
I think, in this moment, Honor Thy Father is in my top 30 favorite DT songs (it doesn't look so good but considering many people dislike it, I think it is controversial :D ). Great drumming, very good vocal melodies (other than spoken/rapping parts among better ones in heavy DT song), awesome keyboard solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2015, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.

It would be a tough call between that and Octavarium for me (hard to compare such different songs), but I also rank it extremely highly. :tup Such a beautiful song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 09:19:52 AM
Repentance is their best ballad after Disappear imo. And I don't feel it drags, at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on November 07, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
TW is so weird for me, first I disliked it, then at some point I started to appreciate it and it was in my like, top three 8VM songs, and now it's back at the bottom three. Is Sacrificed Sons as a tie for favorite 8VM song controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 07, 2015, 09:22:17 AM
Quote from: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 09:19:52 AM
Repentance is their best ballad. And I don't feel it drags, at all.

And it's not even a contest. Overall I feel that DT's ballads are incredibly subpar and boring apart from a few exceptions.

Quote from: Train of Naught on November 07, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
Is Sacrificed Sons as a tie for favorite 8VM song controversial?

Not sure, but it's in my top 3 after Octavarium and TROAE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:23:17 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2015, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.

It would be a tough call between that and Octavarium for me (hard to compare such different songs), but I also rank it extremely highly. :tup Such a beautiful song.

It really is beautiful. Everything from the scaled down orchestrations of the verse to JR's awesome piano work in the bridge to that awesome guitar melody/solo and the bitching outro just makes it a really coherent song that is just as perfect as anything they have done. I have known it since its release in 2005 and it's never wavered for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on November 07, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on November 07, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
Is Sacrificed Sons as a tie for favorite 8VM song controversial?

It depends if you mean tied with Never Enough. Then I'd say yes.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 07, 2015, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.

Love that song, one of the best concise songs they've ever made. Wonderful chorus, the whole flows nicely, it has a mood that does not get derailed with a 3 minute solo, it's just a nice simple perfect song. Would love to hear it live again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NotePad on November 07, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
I wish Dream Theater nowadays didn't take so much influence from 'new' bands, like Red. It's okay to have different influences, i mean I always liked the effect Tool's music had on ToT and parts of 6 Degrees, but sometimes it's a bit too much. Inmy opinion, of course ;p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on November 07, 2015, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: NotePad on November 07, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
I wish Dream Theater nowadays didn't take so much influence from 'new' bands, like Red. It's okay to have different influences, i mean I always liked the effect Tool's music had on ToT and parts of 6 Degrees, but sometimes it's a bit too much. Inmy opinion, of course ;p
If anything I thought Tool's music had influence on SFAM :lol

Quote from: CDrice on November 07, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
It depends if you mean tied with Never Enough. Then I'd say yes.
No, I was talking about The Answer Lies Within.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 07, 2015, 10:21:49 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 07, 2015, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.

It would be a tough call between that and Octavarium for me (hard to compare such different songs), but I also rank it extremely highly. :tup Such a beautiful song.

Yeah, These Walls is a definite second for me after Octavarium, and fits cleanly into my top 25.


Quote from: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 09:19:52 AM
Repentance is their best ballad after Disappear imo. And I don't feel it drags, at all.

I like Repentance more than most, but I like Disappear less than most. Wait for Sleep, Far From Heaven, Space Dye Vest and Vacant are better than both, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on November 07, 2015, 11:08:46 AM
Repentance is really underrated here. One of the best song on SC (I think I already said that recently).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 07, 2015, 02:05:42 PM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on November 07, 2015, 11:08:46 AM
Repentance is really underrated here. One of the best song on SC (I think I already said that recently).

It's the opposite for me. For some reason it my least favorite song from that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 02:32:01 PM
I just love the atmosphere of it, the vocal lines, and the amazing instrumentation. And dat solo  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on November 07, 2015, 02:59:46 PM
I don't think Repentance is one of the best songs on SC, but it's far from the worst indeed. I agree that all Disappear, Wait for Sleep, Far From Heaven, Space-Dye Vest and Vacant are better than it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on November 07, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
While we're at it, did you guys hear live version of Repentance with Mikael Akerfeldt of Opeth on vocals? Awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2015, 03:26:34 PM
 IWBY & TALW < These Walls < every other song on Octavarium
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 07, 2015, 04:51:04 PM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.
I love TW. There are a lot of other great tracks on that album, but TW is probably my favorite overall.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 07, 2015, 05:50:32 PM
TW and IWBY might be my least favorite tracks on 8vm, I prefer NE over those two. Although IWBY is at the bottom, TW grew on me a lot when I saw some of the more recent live versions.

As for Repentance, I think it's fantastic! Love the vocal harmonics, that thick girgling bass and the chord progressions and dat guitar solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 07, 2015, 06:33:53 PM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.

It's also DT's best song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 07, 2015, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Lucien on November 07, 2015, 06:33:53 PM
Quote from: efx on November 07, 2015, 09:13:41 AM
My little opinion: These Walls is by far the best track on Octavarium. It's definitely in my top 10 list of all time DT songs.
It's also DT's best song.

Was expecting you sooner when there's a debate about TW.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 08:20:22 PM
TW is one of DT's most emotional songs imo, and top 3 on the album, sharing the summit with 8VM and Never Enough, which I think doesn't get enough love here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 07, 2015, 08:21:03 PM
TW is a song I wish I appreciated more than I do but it's pretty good, yeah

TROAE is the best song off 8vm though and easily top 5 DT  :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 08:26:19 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 07, 2015, 08:21:03 PM
TW is a song I wish I appreciated more than I do but it's pretty good, yeah

TROAE is the best song off 8vm though and easily top 5 DT  :loser:
Interesting, you didn't choose 8vm. I don't see that choice that often. Why is that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on November 07, 2015, 08:28:02 PM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on November 07, 2015, 08:50:51 AM
I think, in this moment, Honor Thy Father is in my top 30 favorite DT songs (it doesn't look so good but considering many people dislike it, I think it is controversial :D ). Great drumming, very good vocal melodies (other than spoken/rapping parts among better ones in heavy DT song), awesome keyboard solo.

 :tup

Love the song. Some sweet riffs, the instrumental breakdown is solid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 07, 2015, 08:32:56 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 08:26:19 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 07, 2015, 08:21:03 PM
TW is a song I wish I appreciated more than I do but it's pretty good, yeah

TROAE is the best song off 8vm though and easily top 5 DT  :loser:
Interesting, you didn't choose 8vm. I don't see that choice that often. Why is that?
amazing atmospheric intro, great riffs, fantastic chorus, the kind of evil way labrie sounds in the verses, a pretty great instrumental break, doesn't overstay its welcome, nice inclusion of the 8vm theme at the end, again, that amazing chorus

i never get tired of listening to the song, mostly
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 08:59:42 PM
@Parama: Ah, that makes sense. TROAE is an extremely good song. Top 3, with Sacrificed Sons and 8vm. I'm guessing you would rate 8vm second and Sacrificed sons....3rd maybe?

Some DT opinions/facts that I highly disagree with or completely disagree with:
1) "Oh my gosh, Dream Theater is not progressive rock/metal. They are thrash metal."
My response: Dude...do you even know what thrash metal is? Thrash metal bands are Slayer, Anthrax, Metallica, Megadeth, among others."

2)"James Labrie sings so bad because he takes drugs and all those stuff! He smokes also, that's why he sucks!"
My response: ................... You know what? I'm not going to even respond to that, except these two words: Food Poisoning.

3)"FII is THE worst Dream Theater albums ever! Their attempt to go mainstream are just horrendous."
My response:I wouldn't say it is THE worst. I prefer this over WDADU and ADTOE.

4)"James Labrie is killing Dream Theater."
My response:My same two words: Food Poisoning. I don't care if it isn't grating like some other singers, but Labrie fits with his vocal range. His voice is full of emotion and his pitch range is just amazing.

5)"Mike Portnoy is really impatient. He always has to come in as soon as possible and he can't even wait."
My response:I don't he is that impatient because in some songs, he waits perfectly fine: 8vm, Surrounded, The Answer Lies Within, etc.

6)"Jordan Rudess is all speed and no emotion. Why is he so technical? At least Moore and Sherinian had some melodies."
My response:Have you checked out the songs Disappear, TCoT, TBoT, Wither, A Rite of Passage, heck the list could go on forever.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on November 07, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
Who the hell says 1 & 2?  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 09:31:03 PM
Oh trust me, I've heard those. XD
I had to write that down. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 07, 2015, 09:33:31 PM
I've never seen someone call DT thrash metal.

Anyone who thinks DT has tried to go mainstream since Rudess joined the band is drunk, stupid or both.

I don't think A Rite of Passage is a good example of JR's melodic side. :lol ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 09:38:53 PM
Hm, yeah, you're right. Well I put that there because it wasn't his technical side or is it? I mean, he doesn't play too quickly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 07, 2015, 09:41:20 PM
Let's put it this way: it was in the context of your "Have you checked out..." post, and I guarantee I would never start someone off with DT or JR by having them listen to the song with that bebot solo. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on November 07, 2015, 09:42:59 PM
Oh, I see what you mean!  :blush
Thank you for that. *embarassed*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 07, 2015, 09:53:00 PM
^^^^^^^I think the two best examples of JR playing melodically would be Beneath the Surface and Along for the Ride. If he had used the SFaM/SDoIT era lead sound for those instead of the cheesy sound that was actually used, those would be two of his best solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DragonAttack on November 07, 2015, 10:44:13 PM
^
Indeed....the ELP-'Lucky Man'/Styx-'Sing For The Day' synths just ruin the moments in both tunes
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DragonAttack on November 07, 2015, 10:45:26 PM
[double post]
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 07, 2015, 11:05:29 PM
The AFTR solo is especially good, but as already said, that patch just does not fit. JR has many, many melodic solos especially on a lot of his own albums. Some are on synth, some on piano...even within his really technical piano stuff there is melody. It's just  that for some people it's harder to locate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 08, 2015, 01:13:50 AM
Yeah those solos are amazing (BTS AFTR), INCLUDING the patch. Don't know if that's what cheese sounds like, but it sounds completely divine to me.   ;)
Quote from: KevShmev on November 07, 2015, 09:33:31 PM
I've never seen someone call DT thrash metal.

I've seen someone think they were power metal.  :rollin

Probably because of some of the more symphonic elements on keyboard and maybe the vocals sometimes but I certainly wouldn't identify DT with that term. Funnily enough, apparently James Hetfield used power metal to describe or categorise Metallica before the term 'thrash' was coined a couple years later that they chose to identify with instead.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Thematt202 on November 08, 2015, 05:36:34 AM
There are definite power metal influences in their more recent stuff. LnF, BitS and most of the ballads could fit on a number of power metal albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 09, 2015, 05:06:41 PM
The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 09, 2015, 05:36:46 PM
Quote from: Nothingface on November 09, 2015, 05:06:41 PM
The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.

TOT and SC sound nothing like thrash metal imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 09, 2015, 05:39:45 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on November 09, 2015, 05:36:46 PM
Quote from: Nothingface on November 09, 2015, 05:06:41 PM
The power metal influence is obvious, especially on their earlier albums.

Thrash metal was touched upon on Train of Thought, and Systematic Chaos; but those entries are hardly enough to warrant the band as a full-fledged thrash metal act.

TOT and SC sound nothing like trash metal imo.

lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 09, 2015, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on November 09, 2015, 05:36:46 PM
trash metal

Yeah, that's more like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 09, 2015, 09:56:27 PM
- The first disc Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is not one song, the old argument is that because the band made it and called it a song then it is a song, a carpenter can make a table and call it a door too but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him. The songs on that disc are barely connected musically which could also be called reprises, it never feels like the same song throughout. SFAM is as much as song as SDOIT, maybe more but it's really not.
- Octavarium would have been a better song without the Continuum intro or with a shorter version of it.
- The Root of All Evil and the title track are the best songs on Octavarium.
- FII is dreadfully awful, only DT album I'd call that.
- Jordan Rudess's playing and innovation on SFAM and after is a major part of why DT are still around now.
- Portnoy's departure totally revitalized DT and they're as lucky to have Mangini as he is to be with them.
- ADToE is the best DT album since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
- In The Name of God is boring.
- The only thing that keeps me from calling Score the worst DT home release is Chaos in Motion and that doesn't say much for Score.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 09, 2015, 09:56:27 PM
- The first disc Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is not one song, the old argument is that because the band made it and called it a song then it is a song, a carpenter can make a table and call it a door too but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him. The songs on that disc are barely connected musically which could also be called reprises, it never feels like the same song throughout. SFAM is as much as song as SDOIT, maybe more but it's really not.

*Second* disc :P

Well... I agree with you both, you and DT; Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is a song 'cause they called it a song, but to achieve a 42 minute song, they had to piece together various sections that do not have that one-song feel that A Change of Seasons has.

Nightwish's longest song ever, The Greatest Show on Earth on their latest album, is 24 minutes long, but it manages to to do because of a long outro where there is no music played and you hear nature sounds and the likes. Ok, it is 24 minutes, the clock says so, but it's not because they play music for 24 minutes.

Same for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, ok, it's a "song" but does not feel like one, in the old vinyl days it would have been an album on its own, maybe with Side A ending after The Test that Stumped them All.

I remember an interview with JP being asked to tell which song showcases most DT's style (or something), he picked Six Degrees adding "I'm lucky 'cause I get to pick an album" (again, not the exact quote but the sense was that). He knows as well it is really a suite.

Anyway, it's not something I lose my sleep over or that I resent the band for, I'm fine with them calling it a song, it's just that it managed to be a 42 minute a song by making a suite with recurring themes, that's all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 03:48:29 AM
You can have whatever opinion you want, but don't try to say the band doesn't consider it a song. It is a song, regardless of whether you think it feels like one.

Personally I think it feels a lot more cohesive than ACOS, which to me is the ultimate in tacked together bits of music. Little commonality, not great flow from section to section, and nothing to make it greater than the sum of its parts, no real payoff imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on November 10, 2015, 04:10:27 AM
Problem with six degrees is that its split up as seperate tracks on the disc, and the complete suite is rarely performed. Usually they'll pull out like war inside my head, test that stumped them all, or about to crash, or even solitary shell. And the single edit for Solitary Shell and The test that stumped them both sound good as standalones. There's not much glue that binds about to crash to war inside my head, and even less that binds goodnight kiss. solitary shell also sticks out from the rest. They're imo better as standalones, and in fact thats how i usually listen to them - i havent actually listened to the entire sdoit suite in a loooong time. ACOS, however, i listen to almost weekly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 04:14:18 AM
Opposite for me. Never once listened to SDOIT in pieces despite being one of my most listened to songs and albums (and probably my favourite DT song). I couldn't even imagine doing that. I've rarely even watched it cut up on the live DVDs, because it feels so incomplete. I haven't listened to ACOS in so long I couldn't even tell you when.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on November 10, 2015, 06:38:05 AM
My most controversial opinion probably regards BC&SL.  Frankly, it's terrible.  Three things kill this album for me:

1.  Lyrics are embarrassingly bad, the kind of stuff middle-school kids writing their first songs ever would come up with.  In particular The Count of Tuscany is just cringe-worthy throughout.  Compare how stupid the lyrics of that songs to the deep, rich, questioning story found on A Change of Seasons; hard to believe the same people made these two songs.
2.  As with much of the band's later material most songs go on too long.
3.  The nu-metal influences that Portnoy insisted on bringing to the band don't fit in any way with their music IMO. 

I have lots more actually...just came to this site as a long-time (since '92) fan. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 06:41:53 AM
You clearly haven't been around long enough to know what's controversial here.
But I'm glad to have another basher around.  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 03:48:29 AM
You can have whatever opinion you want, but don't try to say the band doesn't consider it a song. It is a song, regardless of whether you think it feels like one.

No mate I didn't say the band doesn't consider it a song, they do, just like the carpenter that made the table he calls a door hehe
I mean ffs man some of these songs don't even segue into one another, they just end. Some of the songs have their own distinguished verses and choruses, these are songs because as Costanza would put it "WE ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY!" :lol
A Change of Seasons can get away with it cause it's about half the play time of Six Degrees, the singing parts still feel connected and it is entirely about the same one subject, which Six Degrees subject of mental disorder is presented through various examples of it, not just one. I'm not a big fan of ACoS btw.


Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
I remember an interview with JP being asked to tell which song showcases most DT's style (or something), he picked Six Degrees adding "I'm lucky 'cause I get to pick an album" (again, not the exact quote but the sense was that). He knows as well it is really a suite.

That's interesting, I'd like to find that interview!

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
Anyway, it's not something I lose my sleep over or that I resent the band for

Oh me neither, I don't resent the band for it. It's just that way back here on DTF there used to be heated arguments on it and people would slap you with "It's a song cause they call it one" heh

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
I'm fine with them calling it a song, it's just that it managed to be a 42 minute a song by making a suite with recurring themes, that's all.

You know what 42 minute song with recurring themes I've been listening to lately? The Dark Side of the Moon  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 11:47:13 AM
Found it: https://www.guitarworld.com/30-veteran-guitarists-slash-steve-vai-and-john-petrucci-choose-song-theyd-want-be-remembered-part-2

It was "Which song would you like to be remembered for", the exact answer was:

"I'm very lucky because i can get away with choosing an entire CD—this 42-minute composition is the title song of our new album."

Ok, this does not make "our" point, he calls it a title song, but still, he said he's picking a CD  :P

Anyway, as you said - nothing to get upset about, I would never get into a fight with other fans trying to argue to death if the piece should be called a song or not. The real question for me is... what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song? something like a very extended version of The Angel and the Gambler by Iron Maiden, something I'm not so sure people would like to hear, haha!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 11:51:58 AM
Thanks for posting the link :)
I never fought anyone but I've seen it happen here, it's always amusing hehe, people are passionate about their DT!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 11:47:13 AM
what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on November 10, 2015, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 11:47:13 AM
what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)

But every symphony has movements, and they usually do not "flow together" any better than the songs on ACOS or 6DOIT do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 10, 2015, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: jsbru on November 10, 2015, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 10, 2015, 11:47:13 AM
what possible kind of composition can last 42 minutes and feel like a unique song?

like

a shit ton of classical music (usually of the romantic era)
But every symphony has movements, and they usually do not "flow together" any better than the songs on ACOS or 6DOIT do.
Exactly. Six Degrees should be looked at the way that classical music has movements. It's one continuous piece of music which has 8 movements, including an overture which kinda should have given away the whole 'treat it like a piece of classical music' part.
Like Blob said - you can have your opinion, but it doesn't change what's fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 09:53:35 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 10, 2015, 08:16:24 PM
Like Blob said - you can have your opinion, but it doesn't change what's fact.

With all due respect; there's no "fact", they're all opinions, unless your definition of "fact" is what the band describes it as, which door/table again. But if you mean "fact" like "sun rises from the east" kinda fact then no, it's not.

Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 10, 2015, 08:16:24 PM
Exactly. Six Degrees should be looked at the way that classical music has movements. It's one continuous piece of music which has 8 movements, including an overture which kinda should have given away the whole 'treat it like a piece of classical music' part.

Where's "continuous" though? let's entertain the classical music example; movements do not have verses and choruses, they are not songs, Six Degrees has 8 songs most of which got the traits of what modern and classic rock music call "song" and some of them are extremely individual in nature.
I do see your point though and it's definitely valid, the overture could be there to give away that it should be treated like a classical music piece, there's an overture in SFAM though..
Question about the movements of classical music pieces; is there silent gaps between them?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
SDOIT is very clearly labeled as the sixth song of the album. This is a fact. Anything else beyond that is merely an opinion, because music doesn't really have facts in the same sense of "the sun rises in the east". SDOIT is no less factually a song than ACOS, or Octavarium, or anything else.
SDOIT is a song. Deal with it. :facepalm:

Many of DT's longer songs have multiple different verses / choruses. Having a distinct chorus doesn't make it a distinct song. Look at TGP, ANTR, Octavarium, TBOT for examples, and they're at most half the length of SDOIT. It's wrong to try and apply short song logic to a 42 minute song. There are no hard and fast rules in music. Since each section of the song deals with a new "case", it makes sense for them to be somewhat self contained in that way lyrically.

Other DT songs also have gaps. IT has a whopping break of random wind chime noises in the middle that break any semblance of flow. Is that not considered one song? ITPOE isn't even a contiguous whole on the album, yet the majority still accept the fact that's one song. TCOT has a break in the middle with the fadeout before the guitar swells come in. Octavarium has some similar breaks too.

None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 10:29:09 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 09:53:35 PM
movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 10:40:09 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.

Quote from: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 10:29:09 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 09:53:35 PM
movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html

Interesting read, where does it say they do have verses and chorus? I'm genuinely asking cause I know they could be using different terms for these words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:43:08 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 10:40:09 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.


I don't see how it "insists" more than any other song does. ???

If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies.  :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 10:52:43 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 10:40:09 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
None of these proofs people come up with hold up when applied universally across the board. It's trivial anyway. Judge music with your ears, not a checklist of semantics. If whether it's called a song or suite or concept or hoedown makes any difference, you're probably music-ing wrong. A rose by any other name or whatever.

I'm with you, it doesn't make any difference in how I experience or enjoy it and I wouldn't have argued semantics if everybody else -including the band- didn't insist on labeling it a song and just let the piece be there open for interpretation.
I know the whole thing sounds like I'm complaining about it but I'm really not heh, it's just a tick, I do enjoy that album immensely.

Quote from: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 10:29:09 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 09:53:35 PM
movements do not have verses and choruses

https://home.earthlink.net/~dbratman/sonata.html

Interesting read, where does it say they do have verses and chorus? I'm genuinely asking cause I know they could be using different terms for these words.

first movement of a symphony

Theme I (verse I)
transition (Not a chorus, but this is where it would be)
Theme II (verse II)
Development (long bridge, a la a DT instrumental section)
Theme I
transition
Theme II
Coda (ending)

It's not perfectly the same, but it's a musical form. It is a work with sections that can be identified. A song doesn't need to have a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus form to be a song. Look at Bohemian Rhapsody for instance.

"Question about the movements of classical music pieces; is there silent gaps between them?"

Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 11:11:50 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:43:08 PM
If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies.  :'(

We are DT buddies no matter what :lol, I didn't mean for this to be an argument but rather a discussion, it turns into one cause this subject gets hostile replies for some reason.
Few days ago a prog page on facebook asked what DT song are you in the mood for and replied Solitary Shell and someone replied to me "uhh I think you mean Six Degrees", that's what reminded me of this old deal heh
I apologize if it seemed like I was hostile as well, I sure didn't mean to.

Quote from: Lucien on November 10, 2015, 10:52:43 PM
first movement of a symphony

Theme I (verse I)
transition (Not a chorus, but this is where it would be)
Theme II (verse II)
Development (long bridge, a la a DT instrumental section)
Theme I
transition
Theme II
Coda (ending)


Thanks bro, I sure don't listen to enough lengthy pieces of classical music to recognize parts that resemble verses and choruses.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 11:17:40 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 11:11:50 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:43:08 PM
If you enjoy the album immensely, what are we arguing about dangit? We should be DT buddies.  :'(

We are DT buddies no matter what :lol, I didn't mean for this to be an argument but rather a discussion, it turns into one cause this subject gets hostile replies for some reason.
Few days ago a prog page on facebook asked what DT song are you in the mood for and replied Solitary Shell and someone replied to me "uhh I think you mean Six Degrees", that's what reminded me of this old deal heh
I apologize if it seemed like I was hostile as well, I sure didn't mean to.


In a case like that, where it's just a matter of incidental semantics of song = track, it's all good to me.
It's only when people outright say SDOIT isn't a song I go into nerd living in their parent's basement clear my schedule because the internet is serious business lockdown mode. :blob:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 10, 2015, 11:27:55 PM
That particular lockdown mode is bad news hehe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 06:21:26 AM
Wow.  I can't believe there's like 30 posts going back and forth arguing about whether SDOIT is a song or not. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 11, 2015, 06:56:20 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day. :lol

That's an.....interesting....way of spending time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on November 11, 2015, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day. :lol

That's an.....interesting....way of spending time.

Next on your shopping list should be the debate on whether "The Astonishing" is grammatically correct. Make some time in your day for that tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 11, 2015, 07:18:14 AM
Haha kids these days, that was water cooler talk compared to how things usually go down here. I've grown to tire quicker and try to fade things out but there are still intense people around here. Wait til a Moore VS. Rudess topic comes up :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 11, 2015, 07:19:15 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 11, 2015, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day. :lol

That's an.....interesting....way of spending time.

Next on your shopping list should be the debate on whether "The Astonishing" is grammatically correct. Make some time in your day for that tomorrow.  ;D

Can't help you there Brent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 11, 2015, 08:14:00 AM
Quote from: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 06:21:26 AM
Wow.  I can't believe there's like 30 posts going back and forth arguing about whether SDOIT is a song or not.
It's not.








it's an album :splodetard:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 11, 2015, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on November 11, 2015, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 07:12:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Pffft, by DTF standards that's nothing. Just another average day. :lol

That's an.....interesting....way of spending time.

Next on your shopping list should be the debate on whether "The Astonishing" is grammatically correct. Make some time in your day for that tomorrow.  ;D

Grammatically correct or not, it's still a shitty title.


Quote from: Kotowboy on November 11, 2015, 08:14:00 AM
Quote from: MHStrawn on November 11, 2015, 06:21:26 AM
Wow.  I can't believe there's like 30 posts going back and forth arguing about whether SDOIT is a song or not.
It's not.








it's an album :splodetard:

Actually, it's both.  Album title = Title song/tracks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 11, 2015, 02:21:00 PM
controversial opinion: through my words is not one song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 11, 2015, 02:29:34 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 11, 2015, 02:21:00 PM
controversial opinion: through my words is not one song
How many songs is it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on November 11, 2015, 02:54:20 PM
about 13.2% of one song  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on November 11, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 10, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
Other DT songs also have gaps. IT has a whopping break of random wind chime noises in the middle that break any semblance of flow. Is that not considered one song?

If only.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 11, 2015, 10:53:39 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 11, 2015, 02:54:20 PM
controversial opinion: through my words is not one song
Well even if you consider it separate from FT, TMW is still only one part of a song because the piano part continues into FT. Frankly, if they weren't going to separate it that way, I question why they separated the track at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 11:02:57 PM
The separation point is weird on the album. I recall it being more "correct" on LSFNY, and that's where I think of the split truly being. I think MP may have commented on that somewhere? Or maybe I'm remembering entirely wrong.

Being a concept album, the lines are a bit blurrier. I do consider it a song, it's just not a particularly useful song on its own, and one that is definitely dependent on FT, similar to Overture 1928 / SDV, or The Mirror / Lie, but to a much greater degree than either of those because there's no way it stands on its own unlike the rest.

I still don't think it was a bad idea to separate it as they did, because it acts as a bridging track, like a breather. Whether it's a song, or part of an act, or whatever they think of it as, isn't as relevant to me in the context of a concept album.



It's funny how different my opinion is here to the earlier discussion. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 11, 2015, 11:26:36 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 11, 2015, 11:02:57 PM
The separation point is weird on the album. I recall it being more "correct" on LSFNY, and that's where I think of the split truly being. I think MP may have commented on that somewhere? Or maybe I'm remembering entirely wrong.

To my knowledge (i.e. completely guessing), I think they split it like that because it's where JM took over lyric-writing. Not sure about that though. Either way, it still should've been separated better for neater organisation (meaning noun for organising, not a company)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on November 12, 2015, 06:18:54 AM
The current split happened rather late in the process actually. Listen to the David Bottrill mixes. There, Fatal Tragedy starts just as the guitars start. Through My Words is much more of a seperate piece in that mix. Fatal Tragedy also have the extended vocal intro which continues the melody from the piano part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 12, 2015, 08:23:36 AM
I've been listening to these mixes for a while before I saw them live on the ADToE tour and I was singing along at the concert and after "I hear the cries, what does this mean..."  I found myself yelling alone "I sense the neeeeeed", needless to say it was awkward :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on November 12, 2015, 08:30:58 AM
I'm going to have to go back and listen to those original mixes.  I remember only listening to them a couple times and thinking "wow...they made a VERY good decision to go back and re-edit this thing".  It was amazing to me how much inferior the total piece was compared to what was eventually released. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 12, 2015, 10:03:20 AM
Really? We're talking about the official bootleg release of the SFAM demos right? Cause I thought they were decent renditions and the little differences from the final release were all interesting and enjoyable, not better than the final release but really not bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on November 12, 2015, 11:08:16 AM
Yes, talking about the official bootleg.  I thought the mixing grossly undermined the content and the final versions were far superior.  BUt like I said, I only listened a couple times; it could be my memory overstates actual impact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 12, 2015, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 12, 2015, 10:03:20 AM
Really? We're talking about the official bootleg release of the SFAM demos right? Cause I thought they were decent renditions and the little differences from the final release were all interesting and enjoyable, not better than the final release but really not bad.

Same opinion here. Final product better? of course. Demo version an atrocity I would never listen to? no way. Actually once in a while for the novelty of it I could go for the demo version rather than the actually released record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 13, 2015, 07:01:06 AM
As a general proposition, and I am including the FII "director's cut" here too, I don't get this dismissal of the Ytsejam versions of these songs.  Of course I can tell the difference between the two, but to say one is "far superior" or the other "unlistenable" (as many have said of both records) is baffling to me.  I get that one might prefer one over the other (I don't really listen to the official FII anymore, vastly preferring the director's cut) but to bag on the other one doesn't really compute. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pebsie on November 13, 2015, 07:07:54 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 11, 2015, 02:29:34 PM
Quote from: Parama on November 11, 2015, 02:21:00 PM
controversial opinion: through my words is not one song
How many songs is it?

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 13, 2015, 09:01:55 AM
DT ripped me off :/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 13, 2015, 10:03:19 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2015, 07:01:06 AM
As a general proposition, and I am including the FII "director's cut" here too, I don't get this dismissal of the Ytsejam versions of these songs.  Of course I can tell the difference between the two, but to say one is "far superior" or the other "unlistenable" (as many have said of both records) is baffling to me.  I get that one might prefer one over the other (I don't really listen to the official FII anymore, vastly preferring the director's cut) but to bag on the other one doesn't really compute.
Especially given the fact that the alternate version of SFaM, as found on CD2 of the Making of SFaM is NOT a bunch of demos, but the ORIGINAL MIX of the final studio recordings. So if anyone complains about the sound quality of it (as opposed to the FII demos), they need to get their ears checked since the sound quality is as good as the final album, perhaps even better. However, the energy was a bit lacking in the Botrill mixes, which is why JP wanted to do the remix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 13, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2015, 07:01:06 AM
As a general proposition, and I am including the FII "director's cut" here too, I don't get this dismissal of the Ytsejam versions of these songs.  Of course I can tell the difference between the two, but to say one is "far superior" or the other "unlistenable" (as many have said of both records) is baffling to me.  I get that one might prefer one over the other (I don't really listen to the official FII anymore, vastly preferring the director's cut) but to bag on the other one doesn't really compute.

The FII Demos are nigh unlistenable to me due to terrible sound quality.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
The FII Demos are nigh unlistenable to me due to terrible sound quality.

Sound quality alone excludes them from serious listening for me. Musically, they're mostly not too different with the few obvious exceptions (and omissions), but luckily I prefer everything about the final album anyway, including the songs they ditched.

For SFAM, I agree there shouldn't be any major complaints. The sound quality isn't quite as good as the album, being unmastered and all, but given that the final album isn't one of DT's best sounding anyway, there's not much in it. The mix differences are mostly minor too. Overall I prefer the final album mix, but the original mix is perfectly listenable, and an interesting peek into the process.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 13, 2015, 10:04:44 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
The FII Demos are nigh unlistenable to me due to terrible sound quality.

Sound quality alone excludes them from serious listening for me. Musically, they're mostly not too different with the few obvious exceptions (and omissions), but luckily I prefer everything about the final album anyway, including the songs they ditched.

For SFAM, I agree there shouldn't be any major complaints. The sound quality isn't quite as good as the album, being unmastered and all, but given that the final album isn't one of DT's best sounding anyway, there's not much in it. The mix differences are mostly minor too. Overall I prefer the final album mix, but the original mix is perfectly listenable, and an interesting peek into the process.

I may be in the minority here but I absolutely love the mix on SFaM. Every instrument cuts through perfectly without any one instrument overpowering another. You can really feel the magic through the mix and it works well with the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
I really like the mix on SFAM too, it just lacks some polish. Even that's not really a bad thing, it's just not what I consider one of DT's best sounding albums, but it's not one of their weakest either. I'd still place it well ahead of the last 4 albums sonically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 13, 2015, 10:54:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
It's just not what I consider one of DT's best sounding albums, but it's not one of their weakest either.
What would you consider their best sounding album?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2015, 12:41:19 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on November 13, 2015, 10:54:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
It's just not what I consider one of DT's best sounding albums, but it's not one of their weakest either.
What would you consider their best sounding album?

I personally think FII is their best sounding, with SDOIT close behind. IaW and Awake also sound great due to the era. I'd put SFAM middle of the pack, ahead of WDADU, and at least the last 4.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2015, 06:28:34 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2015, 12:41:19 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on November 13, 2015, 10:54:17 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 10:16:15 PM
It's just not what I consider one of DT's best sounding albums, but it's not one of their weakest either.
What would you consider their best sounding album?

I personally think FII is their best sounding, with SDOIT close behind. IaW and Awake also sound great due to the era. I'd put SFAM middle of the pack, ahead of WDADU, and at least the last 4.
I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 14, 2015, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2015, 12:41:19 AM
I personally think FII is their best sounding, with SDOIT close behind. IaW and Awake also sound great due to the era. I'd put SFAM middle of the pack, ahead of WDADU, and at least the last 4.
That sounds about right! Though I do like the SFAM mix more than IaW's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2015, 09:25:22 PM
Quote from: pcs90 on November 14, 2015, 06:50:43 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 14, 2015, 12:41:19 AM
I personally think FII is their best sounding, with SDOIT close behind. IaW and Awake also sound great due to the era. I'd put SFAM middle of the pack, ahead of WDADU, and at least the last 4.
That sounds about right! Though I do like the SFAM mix more than IaW's.

IaW is very much a product of its time, so it's very understandable it's not to everyone's taste. I love that late '80s / early '90s sound, so it's right up my alley. Each to their own. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 06:47:34 AM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 13, 2015, 07:01:06 AM
As a general proposition, and I am including the FII "director's cut" here too, I don't get this dismissal of the Ytsejam versions of these songs.  Of course I can tell the difference between the two, but to say one is "far superior" or the other "unlistenable" (as many have said of both records) is baffling to me.  I get that one might prefer one over the other (I don't really listen to the official FII anymore, vastly preferring the director's cut) but to bag on the other one doesn't really compute.

The FII Demos are nigh unlistenable to me due to terrible sound quality.

I mean this constructively and not personally, but I find that to be rather over-dramatic.   Perhaps I'm more tolerant of "sound" than others, but "nigh unlistenable" and "terrible" sounds rather like overstatement.

I have a fair amount of driving to do today, maybe I'll bring those two along and revisit them both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 07:43:59 AM
I don't know know about "unlistenable" but they are definitely of lower quality than the studio release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2015, 07:56:26 AM
I think the official bootleg sounds quite nasty, and it's quite a huge jump from DT's best sounding studio album, to demo quality that is on par with their worst sounding album.
I have a different copy of some of the demo songs from some other unknown source, and they sounded quite good. I don't know what happened there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Viking of the Sagas on November 16, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Afterlife is a Top 10 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 11:38:24 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 07:43:59 AM
I don't know know about "unlistenable" but they are definitely of lower quality than the studio release.

I'm not arguing that at all.  I agree.  Just, if I was going to name "unlistenable" because of the sound, the FII demos wouldn't make that list. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
I feel like the moans in the middle of Home really destroy the ability to play this song when others non DT familiar people are around. I tried, and you have to prepare them for the awkwardness thats about to come, and even then they go like "what the ****, why would they do that?!" and than you try to explain... the story... the meaning with the gambling in the backround... It just got lost.

Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.


*thats also the main reason I prey they would play Home in a live DVD and edit the moans out, so we would have a good, non-awkward version of this song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 12:07:53 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 11:38:24 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 07:43:59 AM
I don't know know about "unlistenable" but they are definitely of lower quality than the studio release.

I'm not arguing that at all.  I agree.  Just, if I was going to name "unlistenable" because of the sound, the FII demos wouldn't make that list.
I haven't listened to them in some time, so my memory may be a little forgiving.  Blob seems to have quite the negative opinion of them, as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 16, 2015, 12:18:03 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.

Wait, you manage to get people sit through one hour and 15 minutes of prog metal with long solos, a crazy instrumental, a broad range of styles from heaviness to ballads and whatelse and what not, but at the end of something that is clearly conceptual and theatrical, hence also the spoken parts, they just can't stomach a couple of minutes of a dude walking around the house listening to the radio and then 30 seconds of noise that comes what is actually the final plot twist to the entire storyline?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
I feel like the moans in the middle of Home really destroy the ability to play this song when others non DT familiar people are around. I tried, and you have to prepare them for the awkwardness thats about to come, and even then they go like "what the ****, why would they do that?!" and than you try to explain... the story... the meaning with the gambling in the backround... It just got lost.

Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.


*thats also the main reason I prey they would play Home in a live DVD and edit the moans out, so we would have a good, non-awkward version of this song.

Haha oh c'mon man.. I kinda think it's unnoticeable if the person listening doesn't know what's going on plot wise.. there's really only a couple of really audible moans, like there isn't any "fuck me harder Eddy" or "Take that miracle Victoria" or anything that bad heh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on November 16, 2015, 12:21:11 PM
 :rollin :rollin :rollin

During LSFNY at Home, at that part I always hear Portnoy saying "Who wants the cock?"
(I know he doesn't say that... right?)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:23:36 PM
I thought he says "Who wants to bounce?", but what you heard makes more sense within the album's context :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 16, 2015, 12:23:58 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
I feel like the moans in the middle of Home really destroy the ability to play this song when others non DT familiar people are around. I tried, and you have to prepare them for the awkwardness thats about to come, and even then they go like "what the ****, why would they do that?!" and than you try to explain... the story... the meaning with the gambling in the backround... It just got lost.

Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.


*thats also the main reason I prey they would play Home in a live DVD and edit the moans out, so we would have a good, non-awkward version of this song.

I agree with this, my sides implode from the cringe every time.

Thank God for playlists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 16, 2015, 12:48:43 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 06:47:34 AM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
The FII Demos are nigh unlistenable to me due to terrible sound quality.

I mean this constructively and not personally, but I find that to be rather over-dramatic.   Perhaps I'm more tolerant of "sound" than others, but "nigh unlistenable" and "terrible" sounds rather like overstatement.

I have a fair amount of driving to do today, maybe I'll bring those two along and revisit them both.

Yeah, you're more tolerant of sound than I am.

I have listened to the demos maybe twice. And I really, really love the extra verses in the demo version of Lines in the Sand and am very sad that those were removed, but I've only listened to the LITS demo like twice. Due to the terrible audio quality. It hurts my ears to listen to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
I feel like the moans in the middle of Home really destroy the ability to play this song when others non DT familiar people are around. I tried, and you have to prepare them for the awkwardness thats about to come, and even then they go like "what the ****, why would they do that?!" and than you try to explain... the story... the meaning with the gambling in the backround... It just got lost.

Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.


*thats also the main reason I prey they would play Home in a live DVD and edit the moans out, so we would have a good, non-awkward version of this song.

Haha oh c'mon man.. I kinda think it's unnoticeable if the person listening doesn't know what's going on plot wise.. there's really only a couple of really audible moans, like there isn't any "fuck me harder Eddy" or "Take that miracle Victoria" or anything that bad heh

 :biggrin: :biggrin: yeah its definitely not THAT bad, but it is audible. Im in a mission to turn my brother to DT side, and playing Home in a car drive, where you can really hear everything load and clear, was not a smart move.

Hell I have a female religious friend, who was downright offended when I warned her of whats going to be in it, so I skipped it altogether. For now its the calm songs like Disappear that seemed to work best when introducing DT.

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 16, 2015, 12:18:03 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
Anyway, this and the album ending of Finally Free really makes it hard to introduce SFAM to others, and I wish they were gone.

Wait, you manage to get people sit through one hour and 15 minutes of prog metal with long solos, a crazy instrumental, a broad range of styles from heaviness to ballads and whatelse and what not, but at the end of something that is clearly conceptual and theatrical, hence also the spoken parts, they just can't stomach a couple of minutes of a dude walking around the house listening to the radio and then 30 seconds of noise that comes what is actually the final plot twist to the entire storyline?

Haha, well I always try getting people to love DT, so in driving, or at work, I manage to get them to listen. Home is really the main bugger, but I had that issue with FF aswell. I was driving my sister and enjoying the song, and tried to explain her what is going to come in the end. Even with that, the noises, screams, and static really drew a weird reaction from her. You can get people to listen to long albums and sometimes they like it, or doesnt, or remain naive to it. But stuff like that is what people outside the DT world (atleast those Im familiar with) really notice and doesnt seem to like. Again, just my experience with it  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 16, 2015, 01:59:03 PM
I can tell you from experience, all you gotta do is put on "Another Day" and give her the D. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: Nothingface on November 16, 2015, 01:59:03 PM
I can tell you from experience, all you gotta do is put on "Another Day" and give her the D. :tup

I sure hope you are referring to the first female mentioned...



And yeah Another Day is another well accepted song by non DT'ers
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 16, 2015, 02:22:18 PM
Quote from: RaasMah on November 16, 2015, 02:10:57 PM
I sure hope you are referring to the first female mentioned...

Oh... certainly!  :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on November 16, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
Quote from: Viking of the Sagas on November 16, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Afterlife is a Top 10 DT song.

I don't agree, but wow. I'm definitely appreciating this post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 16, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
If you're offended at a few barely audible moans in a song (I swear I didn't even notice them 'til like my 10th+ listen), I think it may help to consider why it actually offends you?



Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2015, 07:56:26 AM
I have a different copy of some of the demo songs from some other unknown source, and they sounded quite good. I don't know what happened there.

Is it likely to be the Cleaning out the Closet versions? I think at the very least they're louder so they match the standard audio levels for the other songs a lot better. I wonder what actually happened here though, were they remixed or just slightly remastered to fit the levels of other COTC songs? I've always been a bit curious what that's about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2015, 11:09:39 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 16, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 16, 2015, 07:56:26 AM
I have a different copy of some of the demo songs from some other unknown source, and they sounded quite good. I don't know what happened there.

Is it likely to be the Cleaning out the Closet versions? I think at the very least they're louder so they match the standard audio levels for the other songs a lot better. I wonder what actually happened here though, were they remixed or just slightly remastered to fit the levels of other COTC songs? I've always been a bit curious what that's about.

It's only album songs I have, no B-side songs, so I have no idea.
It sounds like it was remastered for the official bootlegs, definitely louder and a bit distorted, but I don't know. I've never looked into other versions, since I prefer the final album in every single way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Paintbox on November 17, 2015, 11:39:30 AM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on November 16, 2015, 12:21:11 PM
:rollin :rollin :rollin

During LSFNY at Home, at that part I always hear Portnoy saying "Who wants the cock?"
(I know he doesn't say that... right?)
Quote from: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:23:36 PM
I thought he says "Who wants to bounce?", but what you heard makes more sense within the album's context :lol
I thought it was " who wants to come", it makes sense given that solo... Anyway, for those who can't listen to Home when with their family, the moaning is on the right channel, so just take the track and keep the left for those 15 seconds...

My controversial opinion is
I like SC, FII is one of their best, and I don't really like IT because I can't stand the metallic sounding voice of James on it
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 17, 2015, 11:50:56 AM
Indeed on the album and the live version it's "who wants to come"; it's a term used while playing cards (don't remember what it refers to) while serving as an obviously blatant double meaning for what Edward is doing with Victoria  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 17, 2015, 07:32:32 PM
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the sound effects in Home either. For me personally it's not that I find them offensive, I'd just rather not listen to that. I cut that whole section out, but if those sounds are only on one side as said above then I guess I'll need to go fix that and just make a mono mix of the other channel for that part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on November 17, 2015, 10:35:49 PM
I think it's provocative and edgy, which is something that DT doesn't do a lot, so I kind of appreciate it.  They hardly ever even swear for a metal band, and a lot of their lyrics are kind of academic.

Sex is an extremely common theme in art.  Just go to an art gallery with stuff from the 1700s onward.

It's also pretty common on TV and in movies.  Basically every movie rated higher than PG has to have at least some softcore porn these days, even if it's forced and doesn't fit the plot well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nothingface on November 17, 2015, 11:41:53 PM
I'm not a prude by any means, I just find the sound effects to be completely unnecessary and cringeworthy, especially coming from a band like Dream Theater - it was rather ham-fisted (much like the lyrics on that album)

"Hello, Victoria!"  :tdwn

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on November 18, 2015, 01:07:20 AM
I grew up with Guns N Roses doing the same thing on Rocket Queen, so it's never really bothered me, but yeah, it is kind of naff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on November 18, 2015, 06:00:37 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
Haha oh c'mon man.. I kinda think it's unnoticeable if the person listening doesn't know what's going on plot wise.. there's really only a couple of really audible moans, like there isn't any "fuck me harder Eddy" or "Take that miracle Victoria" or anything that bad heh

Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 16, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
If you're offended at a few barely audible moans in a song (I swear I didn't even notice them 'til like my 10th+ listen), I think it may help to consider why it actually offends you?

THIS. I'm a huge DT fan and this is one of my favourite albums of all time. A true masterpiece, and I've never noticed those moans until I read the story on this forum. Still it took me some time to notice them. I think it's just because I'm a music fan and once I started a CD, I got into trance. I let my mind fly and enjoy the art. I don't pay attention to this kind of insignificant details. Home is one of DT's greatest songs. Truly mesmerizing. Too bad that (like we say in Argentina) the tree hides the forest, for some people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaasMah on November 18, 2015, 07:20:18 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on November 18, 2015, 06:00:37 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 16, 2015, 12:19:15 PM
Haha oh c'mon man.. I kinda think it's unnoticeable if the person listening doesn't know what's going on plot wise.. there's really only a couple of really audible moans, like there isn't any "fuck me harder Eddy" or "Take that miracle Victoria" or anything that bad heh

Quote from: Rodni Demental on November 16, 2015, 11:04:16 PM
If you're offended at a few barely audible moans in a song (I swear I didn't even notice them 'til like my 10th+ listen), I think it may help to consider why it actually offends you?

THIS. I'm a huge DT fan and this is one of my favourite albums of all time. A true masterpiece, and I've never noticed those moans until I read the story on this forum. Still it took me some time to notice them. I think it's just because I'm a music fan and once I started a CD, I got into trance. I let my mind fly and enjoy the art. I don't pay attention to this kind of insignificant details. Home is one of DT's greatest songs. Truly mesmerizing. Too bad that (like we say in Argentina) the tree hides the forest, for some people.

I think its an amazing song and I love it to death, but it does have some problems with introducing it to people, from my experience at least. Maybe its just me but I noticed it pretty fast, and I know others who heard it fast too.

And Rodni, I didnt said it offended me, just a friend of mine. And shes religious, they have all sort of nonsense ;D Its like movies with curses or sex, some people just avoid those things, and even though I dont agree with them I dont judge them for it. Overall I just think the song could have done without these moans, thats all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 18, 2015, 07:53:34 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on November 18, 2015, 01:07:20 AM
I grew up with Guns N Roses doing the same thing on Rocket Queen, so it's never really bothered me, but yeah, it is kind of naff.

Me too. And on that song it's worse because the sounds are...ahem...live recorded in the studio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 08:06:59 AM
Honestly people who would have a problem with that section are not worth introducing new music to IMHO. I'm not trying to diss your friend RaasMah but I personally don't engage religious or right wing people in anything that I know might get them butt hurt and I wouldn't get out of my way to have them avoid the "offensive" part of something I like, I'd have them as friends if they're good company but I wouldn't try bringing my world into their's and I except them to do the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 18, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 08:06:59 AM
Honestly people who would have a problem with that section are not worth introducing new music to IMHO. I'm not trying to diss your friend RaasMah but I personally don't engage religious or right wing people in anything that I know might get them butt hurt and I wouldn't get out of my way to have them avoid the "offensive" part of something I like, I'd have them as friends if they're good company but I wouldn't try bringing my world into their's and I except them to do the same.

Not a mod, I know, but treading on dangerous ground with the political stuff.  I'm basically "right wing", and while more spiritual than religious, I understand that feeling, and I only get "butt hurt" by people who engage in bad stereotyping.   Got no problem whatsoever with any of the sound effects on ANY DT album (or Rocket Queen for that matter).   It is art, it is the expression of the artist, and should be taken as such.   If that girl has a problem with the "moans", it's a function of that girl, not "religiosity" or being "right wing".   (Ted Nugent is "right wing" and he has a song called "My Love Is Like A Tire Iron" and was a notorious man-whore back in the day). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on November 18, 2015, 10:19:50 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
  (Ted Nugent is "right wing" and he has a song called "My Love Is Like A Tire Iron" and was a notorious man-whore back in the day).

That's even an understatement.  Nugent was basically a walking, talking hard-on.

This interview sums it all up:
https://crooksandliars.com/2015/02/ted-nugent-tells-gang-punks-internet-stop

Quote
The "pedophile" charge was most likely referring to a 1998 VH1 documentary where Nugent said that he had a history with young girls.

“I was addicted to girls. It was hopeless. It was beautiful,” Nugent said at the time. “I got the stamp of approval of their parents… I guess they figured better Ted Nugent than some drug-infested punk in high school.”

In the song "Jailbait," Nugent sang about his affection for young girls: "Well, I don't care if you're just 13 / You look too good to be true."

That said, the left (of which I am a proud member), has its own issues with repressed sexuality (political correctness, etc.), so I think there are offenders on both sides.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RaasMah on November 18, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
Well Religious people tend to avoid those stuff (not all ofc), and thats fine by me. A shame that they cant share my love of songs or movies that include stuff like that, but you know, to each his own. All Im saying is that these moans create sort of... antagonize? (not sure about the word) and Idd rather have them gone. Just my opinion.

And while in this case she indeed happen to be right wing, I dont connect it to her religion or her favor of music in any way. Theres no reason to assume religion = political side automatically (I have many left wing religious friends to prove it), and I try to avoid cataloging people like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 18, 2015, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 08:06:59 AM
Honestly people who would have a problem with that section are not worth introducing new music to IMHO. I'm not trying to diss your friend RaasMah but I personally don't engage religious or right wing people in anything that I know might get them butt hurt and I wouldn't get out of my way to have them avoid the "offensive" part of something I like, I'd have them as friends if they're good company but I wouldn't try bringing my world into their's and I except them to do the same.

Not a mod, I know, but treading on dangerous ground with the political stuff.  I'm basically "right wing", and while more spiritual than religious, I understand that feeling, and I only get "butt hurt" by people who engage in bad stereotyping.   Got no problem whatsoever with any of the sound effects on ANY DT album (or Rocket Queen for that matter).   It is art, it is the expression of the artist, and should be taken as such.   If that girl has a problem with the "moans", it's a function of that girl, not "religiosity" or being "right wing".   (Ted Nugent is "right wing" and he has a song called "My Love Is Like A Tire Iron" and was a notorious man-whore back in the day).

It's IMHO, derived from my own personal experiences and the experiences of people I know.
However I agree with you about the right wing part, I didn't take into consideration that specific Ted Nugent Mickey Rourke Arnold Schwarzenegger Chuck Norris type of right winging where it's not religion that drives them but rather a sense of amplified nationalism.
I had more to say here but I had to cut it short cause you're right; this is dangerous ground treading ;)

Quote from: RaasMah on November 18, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
And while in this case she indeed happen to be right wing, I dont connect it to her religion or her favor of music in any way. Theres no reason to assume religion = political side automatically (I have many left wing religious friends to prove it), and I try to avoid cataloging people like that.

I'm with you dude, I avoid cataloging except in the case where my purpose is avoidance itself, to avoid riling people up or losing them.

Quote from: jsbru on November 18, 2015, 10:19:50 AM
That said, the left (of which I am a proud member), has its own issues with repressed sexuality (political correctness, etc.), so I think there are offenders on both sides.

I'm a leftist too but I'm totally for PC dude, it's annoying cause it's called "PC" but if I can rename it "why fuck with people and make them feel like shit just cause you wanna yap?" then it would have a more compassionate vibe to it heh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Calvin6s on November 18, 2015, 01:21:45 PM
WTF is going on in this thread and what does it have to do with the thread topic?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on November 18, 2015, 01:26:08 PM
I think someone was uncomfortable with sex.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 01:26:39 PM
Little derailment, we were orginally talking about the sex scene in Home, my bad  :chill
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on November 18, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
Let's get it back on track boys, my apparently controversial opinion: Build Me Up, Break Me Down is a top 96 DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 18, 2015, 01:35:56 PM
I'll elaborate on that, and I'll say that all Dream Theater's "easy" songs are great, and never cheesy or commercial for the sake of wanting some airplay.

I Walk Beside You? wonderful uplifting tune, catchy as well, puts you in a good mood. Forsaken? awesome chorus, the best one in Systematic Chaos, it somehow reminds me of the Awake days, a gorgeous power ballad concise and to the point. Wither? Delicate and awesome ballad with wonderful melodies and gentle, delicate playing that shows that DT don't always have to show off. Even You Not Me is good, Desmond Child was hired to make it more catchy and that's what he did, if pop songs were this good, I'd listen to pop.

And so on and so forth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 19, 2015, 07:12:44 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 18, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
It's IMHO, derived from my own personal experiences and the experiences of people I know.
However I agree with you about the right wing part, I didn't take into consideration that specific Ted Nugent Mickey Rourke Arnold Schwarzenegger Chuck Norris type of right winging where it's not religion that drives them but rather a sense of amplified nationalism.
I had more to say here but I had to cut it short cause you're right; this is dangerous ground treading ;)

"IMHO" isn't a catch all, and it doesn't excuse stereotyping.  If I get mugged by a [insert specific race here], do I get to say "IMHO, all [inserted race] are scumbag thieving thugs"?  I have no doubt whatsoever that the Westboro Church, the KKK, those in central Europe in the mid-1930's, and those in the Far East in the late 1960's would have been happy to put "IMHO" after the statements they made that led to millions upon millions of unnecessary deaths.

Quote
I'm a leftist too but I'm totally for PC dude, it's annoying cause it's called "PC" but if I can rename it "why fuck with people and make them feel like shit just cause you wanna yap?" then it would have a more compassionate vibe to it heh

Except that's not what "PC" does.  "PC" tries to tell people what they can and can't say, and in what context.  I'm absolutely in 100,000% agreement with you on the "why f*** with people" idea - I am live and let live almost to a fault.  That's libertarianism, not leftism.   PC is the opposite of that.  "PC" is removing those moans because they might offend; that was DT's artistic statement at the time.  Why not just let them make it, and don't listen if you don't like it?

I honestly hadn't really noticed them until this thread.   I find the guest vocals on "Lines In The Sand" far more egregious and offensive, and while I will share my opinion with one who asks, my solution to that is simply not listen to the song.  There are tens of other DT songs to listen to that I enjoy greatly. 

For the record, "I Walk Beside You" is a Top Ten DT song for me.   I'm a melody guy, so the heavier they get (for the sake of heavy) the more they lose me.  I don't like growl vocals, and would much prefer something eminently singable over all the riffage. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
I Walk Beside You is an awesome song.

Little known fact: when the album came out, I and some friends of mine (who all played music together at our church) really loved it.  We had a special show coming up where we were going to be able to "open up" for a big-name Christian band (Newsong, if you care) at a local festival - we got to play in front of more than 4,000 people, easily the biggest crowd I've played for (which was amazing).  We wanted to put together a somewhat out-of-the-ordinary set for the event, so we all looked at IWBY and thought we could get away with it, since some of the lyrics are pseudo-spiritual.

So, we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on November 19, 2015, 08:05:12 AM
Awesome! You wouldn't happen to have a video file of that do you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 08:14:08 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on November 19, 2015, 08:05:12 AM
Awesome! You wouldn't happen to have a video file of that do you?
No, sorry.  This was 10 years ago, and none of us thought to do anything like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on November 19, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
...we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

Cool! What's the name of your band? What instrument do you play? :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 19, 2015, 10:55:57 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
And we rocked that shit, yo.
FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on November 19, 2015, 01:39:39 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
I Walk Beside You is an awesome song.

Little known fact: when the album came out, I and some friends of mine (who all played music together at our church) really loved it.  We had a special show coming up where we were going to be able to "open up" for a big-name Christian band (Newsong, if you care) at a local festival - we got to play in front of more than 4,000 people, easily the biggest crowd I've played for (which was amazing).  We wanted to put together a somewhat out-of-the-ordinary set for the event, so we all looked at IWBY and thought we could get away with it, since some of the lyrics are pseudo-spiritual.

So, we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

That's pretty awesome, I must say. There are several DT songs which could work in a format like that, even if the original meaning that was given may be very different.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 20, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on November 19, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
...we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

Cool! What's the name of your band? What instrument do you play? :)
Uplift.  Just a band from our church. 

I play guitar and drums.  That day (and currently), drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on November 20, 2015, 09:07:21 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 20, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Quote from: JediKnight1969 on November 19, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
...we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

Cool! What's the name of your band? What instrument do you play? :)
Uplift.  Just a band from our church. 

I play guitar and drums.  That day (and currently), drums.

 :tup Keep on rockin'!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 20, 2015, 10:34:05 AM
 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 20, 2015, 11:21:12 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
I Walk Beside You is an awesome song.

Little known fact: when the album came out, I and some friends of mine (who all played music together at our church) really loved it.  We had a special show coming up where we were going to be able to "open up" for a big-name Christian band (Newsong, if you care) at a local festival - we got to play in front of more than 4,000 people, easily the biggest crowd I've played for (which was amazing).  We wanted to put together a somewhat out-of-the-ordinary set for the event, so we all looked at IWBY and thought we could get away with it, since some of the lyrics are pseudo-spiritual.

So, we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

Holy crap Hef, Newsong?!  They were very big at the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 20, 2015, 12:17:39 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on November 20, 2015, 11:21:12 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2015, 07:47:04 AM
I Walk Beside You is an awesome song.

Little known fact: when the album came out, I and some friends of mine (who all played music together at our church) really loved it.  We had a special show coming up where we were going to be able to "open up" for a big-name Christian band (Newsong, if you care) at a local festival - we got to play in front of more than 4,000 people, easily the biggest crowd I've played for (which was amazing).  We wanted to put together a somewhat out-of-the-ordinary set for the event, so we all looked at IWBY and thought we could get away with it, since some of the lyrics are pseudo-spiritual.

So, we played that song live in front of crowd, BEFORE the band ever debuted it live.  Pretty neat.

And we rocked that shit, BTW.

Holy crap Hef, Newsong?!  They were very big at the time.
Yeah, it was fun.  Super nice guys.  It was a great day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on January 16, 2016, 04:01:53 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 18, 2015, 01:35:56 PM
I'll elaborate on that, and I'll say that all Dream Theater's "easy" songs are great, and never cheesy or commercial for the sake of wanting some airplay.

I Walk Beside You? wonderful uplifting tune, catchy as well, puts you in a good mood. Forsaken? awesome chorus, the best one in Systematic Chaos, it somehow reminds me of the Awake days, a gorgeous power ballad concise and to the point. Wither? Delicate and awesome ballad with wonderful melodies and gentle, delicate playing that shows that DT don't always have to show off. Even You Not Me is good, Desmond Child was hired to make it more catchy and that's what he did, if pop songs were this good, I'd listen to pop.

And so on and so forth.

 :hefdaddy

Thank you, sir!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on January 20, 2016, 10:06:10 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

I won't say it's controversial, but I think it's kinda condescending.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 20, 2016, 10:12:08 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

No offense, but what the fuck.
I mean, how can you pair a statement like "people who don't like DT have a bad taste" with "IN MY OPINION DT's music is perfection".
Your opinion is that they make good music. And someone else's opinion might be that they make bad music, which is not a matter of BAD taste, but DIFFERENT taste in music.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
The thread asked for my opinion, so I gave it. People who dismiss DT may have different tastes in music, and IMO in this case different means worse. The majority of people I've met that don't like DT listen to top 40 garbage or worse, country. That is bad music
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on January 20, 2016, 10:23:23 AM
The majority of people I've met that don't like DT are kind genuine people that don't feel the need to explore a progressive metal band. I don't understand why some people can't get over the fact that not everyone likes their favorite band that they praise into heaven.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on January 20, 2016, 10:24:15 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

... This is why people think dt fans are pretentious. If by controversial you mean almost nobody else would treat it with any validity (for good reason), then yeah.
I think most people should be able to at least appreciate their proficiency on their instruments, but they certainly don't have to like them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on January 20, 2016, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
The thread asked for my opinion, so I gave it. People who dismiss DT may have different tastes in music, and IMO in this case different means worse. The majority of people I've met that don't like DT listen to top 40 garbage or worse, country. That is bad music

It isn't bad music, you just don't like it. Your attitude is what makes other people less likely to listen to certain bands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vazquez on January 20, 2016, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

That´s the reason some people I know hate DT. Nothing against the band - but some fans are so stupid and arrogant, that they can´t listen to the songs without those fanatics sounding in their ears: "But Portnoy is the best, Petrucci is a god, the band YOU like sucks, DT is perfect, Mangini plays with one hand what the drummer of your favorite band needs all four members to play, you are a loser blah blah blah". Man, that sucks! And it happens again and again.

Funny thing is, DT´s musicians are very humble. They admire a lot of guys, they respect everybody, they NEVER spoke a word in the sense: "I´m better than that guy or that other guy". They treat every other musician in the world with the utmost respect, every style, anything. And that respect they have for everybody is what make them great, above all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on January 20, 2016, 10:38:59 AM
My uncle couldn't get into DT after I've given him I&W and SFAM CDs. At the same time, he's a huge fan of Beatles, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, other classic rock bands, that kind of stuff. Bad taste, right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2016, 10:45:45 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

Im guessing your shit doesn't stink?  Come on (once again), music is completely subjective.  Everyone has their own tastes, there is not a single "one is better than the other" scenario besides your own opinion of the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EraVulgaris on January 20, 2016, 10:48:49 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
The thread asked for my opinion, so I gave it. People who dismiss DT may have different tastes in music, and IMO in this case different means worse. The majority of people I've met that don't like DT listen to top 40 garbage or worse, country. That is bad music

Because everything that isn't 10 minute instrumental wankery with whacky keyboard sounds and a lead singer with a voice some people might find irritating is bad music.

Don't get me wrong, I like most of Dream Theaters stuff (I'm on this board after all), but can see plenty of reasons why people wouldn't like them. Comments like yours are what I really hate about the whole prog community. As if I was smarter than someone else because I like Dream Theater, Tool and Pink Floyd instead of Drake and Katy Perry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 20, 2016, 11:04:24 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music.
This isn't really an opinion on DT (which is the thread topic), but rather an opinion on other people.

And a bad one, at that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 20, 2016, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
The thread asked for my opinion, so I gave it. People who dismiss DT may have different tastes in music, and IMO in this case different means worse. The majority of people I've met that don't like DT listen to top 40 garbage or worse, country. That is bad music

Unfortunately, sport, not everything can be qualified and excused by "in my opinion".   Science says there is little correlation between what music one likes and raw intelligence, though there is a slight correlation between some measures of intelligence and classical music, (but they haven't quite figured out why yet), and there is some correlation between certain personality traits and music genre, but they are broad characterizations. 

As the legendary Paul Stanley once said:  "there is no "good" or "bad" in music; only whether I like it or not." 

Thankfully for the rest of us, the world doesn't operate on your standard.   Some of the best musicians in the history of American music are in country.  Ask any musician what they think of Johnny Cash or Hank Williams.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 20, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
Johnny Cash should be on Mount Rushmore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 12:47:38 PM
Not really.  He should just get his own mountain.

Tangent:  In Folsom, they recently constructed a new part of the Folsom bike/walking trail network that goes by Folsom Prison and along part of Folsom Lake and the American River and named it after Johnny Cash.  Very appropriate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on January 20, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 12:47:38 PM
Not really.  He should just get his own mountain.

Tangent:  In Folsom, they recently constructed a new part of the Folsom bike/walking trail network that goes by Folsom Prison and along part of Folsom Lake and the American River and named it after Johnny Cash.  Very appropriate.
Really?  I used to live in Folsom.  There has always been a bike trail there it goes all the way down to Discovery park.  It's something like 22 mile ride.  I did it once but was pretty worn out :)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
Yeah, that is the main part of it, but it has many branches that go all throughout the city now.  When were you in Folsom, and where are you now?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 20, 2016, 01:01:44 PM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance
Sure, there are a lot of people who don't give DT a fair chance. I think everyone should be open to exploring new music, at least a little...but not everyone is. I don't like most mainstream music, but if someone else does then so what? That doesn't make them any less of a person. Their musical taste isn't the same as mine...doesn't mean it's bad. Most people can at least apreciate the talent the members of DT have, which is good enough in my book.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 20, 2016, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
The thread asked for my opinion, so I gave it. People who dismiss DT may have different tastes in music, and IMO in this case different means worse. The majority of people I've met that don't like DT listen to top 40 garbage or worse, country. That is bad music

I don't generally listen to Top 40 music but to say none of it has any redeeming value is capricious and short-sighted. Would you say Alicia Keys is garbage? She's repeatedly in the Top 10 but she also was playing classical compositions on the piano from an early age. Just because it's not the kind of talent you appreciate doesn't mean there isn't talent to be found.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Wubbagubba on January 20, 2016, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 20, 2016, 09:54:33 AM
Not sure if this is controversial, but anyone who doesn't like DT has bad taste in music. IMO DT's music is perfection, even the lesser songs. I'm convinced that people who dismiss DT have never given them a real chance

That just seems like an idiotic thing to say. Yes, I love DT too, but taste is subjective. I think any listener who listens to DT should be able to respect their proficient musicianship, but just because someone doesn't like the fast shredding, vocalist, or insane rhythmic sections doesn't mean they have bad taste in music. Maybe they prefer something simpler.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2016, 01:30:33 PM
I've played DT for friends/family/GFs before and almost all of them weren't into it.  Not once did my opinion on that person change.  It's music.  I would hope their opinion on me didn't change because I didn't like whatever they might have showed me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
My controversial opinion(s):

Dream Theater hasn't released a great album in nearly 2 decades.

The band cares less about their fans than they ever have.

Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

James Labrie is beyond washed up and needs to retire.

Hiring David Campbell means that DT have finally jumped the shark.  He is the king of pop music.

Mike Portnoy is the most overrated drummer on the planet, but did a great job producing DT's music.

Rich Chycki has ruined DT's production quality and has successfully made Mike Mangini sound wholly average, which he definitely isn't.

Marco Minnemann would have been a much better drummer for the band, but I think DT would have held HIM back creatively.

Commence the flames.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2016, 01:35:26 PM
:flame:

What makes you think TA is more commercial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 20, 2016, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Mike Portnoy is the most overrated drummer on the planet
Well, I agree with you there!

Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Rich Chycki has ruined DT's production quality and has successfully made Mike Mangini sound wholly average, which he definitely isn't.
Agree here too...

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Commence the flames.

No need to flame.  But since you obviously came here from 5/8 just to troll, I am happy to send you back to where you came from.  You don't get to insult the band (comments like calling someone "washed up," for example) in the guise of posting a "controversial opinion."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
My controversial opinion(s):

Dream Theater hasn't released a great album in nearly 2 decades.

The band cares less about their fans than they ever have.

Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

James Labrie is beyond washed up and needs to retire.

Hiring David Campbell means that DT have finally jumped the shark.  He is the king of pop music.

Mike Portnoy is the most overrated drummer on the planet, but did a great job producing DT's music.

Rich Chycki has ruined DT's production quality and has successfully made Mike Mangini sound wholly average, which he definitely isn't.

Marco Minnemann would have been a much better drummer for the band, but I think DT would have held HIM back creatively.

Commence the flames.

(https://i.imgur.com/xPmlI8A.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 20, 2016, 01:43:03 PM
This comment actually irritated me the most.

Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
The band cares less about their fans than they ever have.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Commence the flames.

No need to flame.  But since you obviously came here from 5/8 just to troll, I am happy to send you back to where you came from.  You don't get to insult the band (comments like calling someone "washed up," for example) in the guise of posting a "controversial opinion."

well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on January 20, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Commence the flames.

No need to flame.  But since you obviously came here from 5/8 just to troll, I am happy to send you back to where you came from.  You don't get to insult the band (comments like calling someone "washed up," for example) in the guise of posting a "controversial opinion."

What is 5/8?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on January 20, 2016, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
My controversial opinion(s):

Dream Theater hasn't released a great album in nearly 2 decades.

The band cares less about their fans than they ever have.

Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

James Labrie is beyond washed up and needs to retire.

Hiring David Campbell means that DT have finally jumped the shark.  He is the king of pop music.

Mike Portnoy is the most overrated drummer on the planet, but did a great job producing DT's music.

Rich Chycki has ruined DT's production quality and has successfully made Mike Mangini sound wholly average, which he definitely isn't.

Marco Minnemann would have been a much better drummer for the band, but I think DT would have held HIM back creatively.

Commence the flames.

Your first and 7th point are reasonable (though I think very differently) but the rest are just  :facepalm: and some are either borderline or actually bashing. Also, a 2hr 10min rock opera being the most commercial thing they've done?  :rollin

Quote from: chaossystem on January 20, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Commence the flames.

No need to flame.  But since you obviously came here from 5/8 just to troll, I am happy to send you back to where you came from.  You don't get to insult the band (comments like calling someone "washed up," for example) in the guise of posting a "controversial opinion."

What is 5/8?

Another forum that (iirc) used to be a DT based forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 20, 2016, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.

I don't think he is the only one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.

are you projecting on me right now????? :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 20, 2016, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.

are you projecting on me right now????? :(
No, I don't think he is.

What's up, Bacong?

Quote from: chaossystem on January 20, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
What is 5/8?
Oh, you'd love it there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 20, 2016, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 20, 2016, 01:48:58 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.

I don't think he is the only one.

There seems to be an influx these past few days. It's all coming together now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:58:02 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 20, 2016, 01:53:42 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
well TBH bosky, 5/8 has been down for days :)
That would explain why he got bored and came here.

are you projecting on me right now????? :(
No, I don't think he is.

What's up, Bacong?


nm
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 20, 2016, 02:04:52 PM
 ???  I just meant, "Hey, what's up?  Long time no see!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 02:09:33 PM
???  And I think he just meant, "Not much."  As in, "Not much."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 02:09:33 PM
???  And I think he just meant, "Not much."  As in, "Not much."

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on January 20, 2016, 02:44:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
Yeah, that is the main part of it, but it has many branches that go all throughout the city now.  When were you in Folsom, and where are you now?
I left back in 99 - Born and raised in "SacraTOMATO".  Folsom has changed quite a bit and grew a lot so it makes sense they would expand those trails.  I'm out in the Midwest now.  The geography is not as good (no mountains or oceans) but the people are a little more in line with my way of thinking.  It was getting tough living on the "left" coast . . . oh wait maybe I can't say that (Checks thread title) . . . no, i'm good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Wubbagubba on January 20, 2016, 02:50:07 PM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
My controversial opinion(s):

Dream Theater hasn't released a great album in nearly 2 decades.

The band cares less about their fans than they ever have.

Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

James Labrie is beyond washed up and needs to retire.

Hiring David Campbell means that DT have finally jumped the shark.  He is the king of pop music.

Mike Portnoy is the most overrated drummer on the planet, but did a great job producing DT's music.

Rich Chycki has ruined DT's production quality and has successfully made Mike Mangini sound wholly average, which he definitely isn't.

Marco Minnemann would have been a much better drummer for the band, but I think DT would have held HIM back creatively.

Commence the flames.

You know, it's funny, because whenever I see your username, the post under it is always something irrationally negative about DT. I have no idea if you're a troll or not, but at this point I just dismissed everything you say in your posts as drivel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on January 20, 2016, 02:56:36 PM
Quote from: chaossystem on January 20, 2016, 01:45:40 PM
What is 5/8?

It's where you go when you get banned from DTF for being a douche, I think bans here actually come with a recommendation to register at 5/8.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chego_voice on January 20, 2016, 05:39:30 PM
MY Controversial Opinion on DT:

I just fucking love james labrie voice!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on January 20, 2016, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: chego_voice on January 20, 2016, 05:39:30 PM
MY Controversial Opinion on DT:

I just fucking love james labrie voice!

I don't think that would be particularly controversial on a forum dedicated to DT.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 20, 2016, 07:53:25 PM
Quote from: Enigmachine on January 20, 2016, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: chego_voice on January 20, 2016, 05:39:30 PM
MY Controversial Opinion on DT:

I just fucking love james labrie voice!

I don't think that would be particularly controversial on a forum dedicated to DT.  :lol

You would be surprised, brah
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 06:17:37 AM
Quote from: chego_voice on January 20, 2016, 05:39:30 PM
MY Controversial Opinion on DT:

I just fucking love james labrie voice!

I actually agree.  He's the reason I got into the band in the first place.    I've come to love other things over the years (nuggetz, Mike Portnoy...) and I've come to not really like him as a person or front man, but his voice... velvet, as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 21, 2016, 06:51:27 AM
But James gets a lot of grief. So huge support for him, while not necessarily controversial, is certainly welcomed.

I too love James' voice and think he is amazing. DT is my favorite band because of the emotion I feel listening to them, and the vocals are really a primary reason for that.
That said, I don't find anything remotely interesting about James' solo albums, so to me, it's really how he fits in with DT that shows what a perfect fit he is for them.

I know live he's hit and miss, but I think he has an overall pretty good track record, especially over the last dozen years. I've said that no band of this ilk asks so much of their singer in a live setting than DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on January 21, 2016, 06:52:33 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 06:17:37 AM
Quote from: chego_voice on January 20, 2016, 05:39:30 PM
MY Controversial Opinion on DT:

I just fucking love james labrie voice!

I actually agree.  He's the reason I got into the band in the first place.    I've come to love other things over the years (nuggetz, Mike Portnoy...) and I've come to not really like him as a person or front man, but his voice... velvet, as far as I am concerned.

Not really trying to poke, but you are literally the only person I have ever heard say they didn't like JLB. It seems like everyone who meets him seems to think he's really nice and funny, and honestly that's how he's always come across to me in interviews, press, etc... Care to elaborate at all?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 21, 2016, 06:57:48 AM
Quote from: Bacong on January 20, 2016, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 20, 2016, 02:09:33 PM
???  And I think he just meant, "Not much."  As in, "Not much."

 :rollin
Dammit
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2016, 06:51:27 AM
I don't find anything remotely interesting about James' solo albums

 :omg:

I love JLB voice and style, including his solo band.  I think he performs better on his last two solo albums than in DT, maybe because he doesn't have to perform those songs live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on January 21, 2016, 08:19:21 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2016, 06:51:27 AM
I don't find anything remotely interesting about James' solo albums

 :omg:

I love JLB voice and style, including his solo band.  I think he performs better on his last two solo albums than in DT, maybe because he doesn't have to perform those songs live.

As I've said before, JLB's last 3 solo albums are better than DT's last 3 albums.  Simple as that.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 21, 2016, 08:30:47 AM
I wouldn't agree with "better" but they are definitely fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CoT67 on January 21, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

>Commercial
>2 hour and 15 minutes long double album concept/prog rock opera

Pick one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 21, 2016, 08:51:35 AM
Quote from: CoT67 on January 21, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
Dream Theater is becoming more and more commercial by the album (and TA will be no exception)

>Commercial
>2 hour and 15 minutes long double album concept/prog rock opera

Pick one.
Yeah, no kidding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 09:41:25 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 21, 2016, 08:19:21 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: TAC on January 21, 2016, 06:51:27 AM
I don't find anything remotely interesting about James' solo albums

 :omg:

I love JLB voice and style, including his solo band.  I think he performs better on his last two solo albums than in DT, maybe because he doesn't have to perform those songs live.

As I've said before, JLB's last 3 solo albums are better than DT's last 3 albums.  Simple as that.  :biggrin:

I have Static Impulse, and I like it very much (though I like DT better; sorry).  But it's not a zero sum game, right?

So help me out:  are the "Mullmuzzler" albums similar?  Are they just solo albums with a band name on them?  Of the three "JLB" records, which is the best? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 21, 2016, 09:50:22 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 09:41:25 AM
So help me out:  are the "Mullmuzzler" albums similar?  Are they just solo albums with a band name on them?  Of the three "JLB" records, which is the best? 

The style is different.  I didn't like the Mullmuzzler albums much.  But I have not listened to them in a very long time and cannot really give you specifics.  Of the "JLB" solo albums, I would rank them thus:
1.  Impermanent Resonance:  By far, the best of the three.  The blend of pop and modern metal is sublime.  Matt truly wrote some outstanding music, and the performers all shined.
2.  Elements of Persuasion:  Fun album with some catchy songs.
3.  Static Impulse:  Sonically, I find it similar to Impermanent Resonance.  However, Impermanent Resonance stands head and shoulders above this one, in my opinion. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on January 21, 2016, 10:19:37 AM
I agree with Bosk1.  The last 3 JLB releases are a big step up ( I think) from the Mullmuzzler series.  That's why I compared only the last 3 JLB releases to the last 3 DT releases.  Another reason I made the comparisons is that JLB's releases have gotten progressively better.  DT's have not within that same time span.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't like mike portnoys spastic drumming after the first chorus of misunderstood
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 21, 2016, 10:30:32 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't like mike portnoys spastic drumming after the first chorus of misunderstood

No, I don't think it has.  Honestly, I think you may be the first person I have ever seen mention that they don't like that.  I mean, I'm not criticizing if that's your opinion--just saying that I don't think I've ever seen it expressed before.  You are definitely in the minority on that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:54:27 AM
I mean I don't think it's terrible. Maybe it's just the guitarist in me, but I really enjoy Petrucci's playing during that section in combination with Myung's bass part, and IMO the drums are a little too overpowering. This is d finitely a minor criticism of a great song
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 21, 2016, 10:58:54 AM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't like mike portnoys spastic drumming after the first chorus of misunderstood

Wow. That's my favourite part of the song. :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 10:59:12 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 21, 2016, 10:19:37 AM
I agree with Bosk1.  The last 3 JLB releases are a big step up ( I think) from the Mullmuzzler series.  That's why I compared only the last 3 JLB releases to the last 3 DT releases.  Another reason I made the comparisons is that JLB's releases have gotten progressively better.  DT's have not within that same time span.

Yea, it's a different style of music, the Mullmuzzler stuff was not for me, but I admit I didn't give it a fair shot.  It didn't hit me at all on first listen so I never bought the albums.  His last three are great though, wouldn't say better than DT.  It's different than DT, but I do think his performance is better on those albums... I mean it's his band, it should be in a way.

As for Misunderstood, I guess my controversial opinion is that song is just not that good.  I was very disappointed when they played Misunderstood instead of Blind Faith at the Philly show during the SC tour... and then again on the ProgNation tour in NYC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 10:59:12 AM

Yea, it's a different style of music, the Mullmuzzler stuff was not for me, but I admit I didn't give it a fair shot.  It didn't hit me at all on first listen so I never bought the albums.  His last three are great though, wouldn't say better than DT.  It's different than DT, but I do think his performance is better on those albums... I mean it's his band, it should be in a way.

I'm sorry I'm hammering this point, but I don't have SPotify or anything like that; "different style" in the sense that Mullmuzzler is 80's synth pop? Or Death metal?  I know what SI sounds like (and I like that record very much).  Where in relation to that is the Mullmuzzler?

Quote
As for Misunderstood, I guess my controversial opinion is that song is just not that good.  I was very disappointed when they played Misunderstood instead of Blind Faith at the Philly show during the SC tour... and then again on the ProgNation tour in NYC.

Friggin' LOVE that song, Misunderstood.  In my DT top ten, and perhaps my favorite song on an album that is one of my favorites from the band. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 21, 2016, 11:24:39 AM
Quote from: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 10:59:12 AM

Yea, it's a different style of music, the Mullmuzzler stuff was not for me, but I admit I didn't give it a fair shot.  It didn't hit me at all on first listen so I never bought the albums.  His last three are great though, wouldn't say better than DT.  It's different than DT, but I do think his performance is better on those albums... I mean it's his band, it should be in a way.

I'm sorry I'm hammering this point, but I don't have SPotify or anything like that; "different style" in the sense that Mullmuzzler is 80's synth pop? Or Death metal?  I know what SI sounds like (and I like that record very much).  Where in relation to that is the Mullmuzzler? 

I know for me, it has been so long since I listened that, coupled with the fact that I only listened once or twice, I can't really recall enough to give you any specifics.  But what I would recommend is google the track lists so you have the names of some songs, and then find some songs on YouTube.  Even without some of the services you mentioned that you don't have, YouTube is always there to sample something to see if it fits your tastes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 21, 2016, 11:47:56 AM
Let's say that the most recent 3 JLB albums could be classified as "hard" or "heavy".

In that vein, the Mullmuzzler albums are definitely "soft."

I still like them (or some songs from them), but they don't have the visceral appeal of the more recent albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 21, 2016, 11:50:11 AM
I would recommend Confronting the Devil, Afterlife, Tell Me from Mullmuzzler 2 and His Voice, Guardian Angel and As a Man Thinks from the first. It also might be worth paying attention to the drums since that is Mike Mangini, could be fun to compare to his work with them now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on January 21, 2016, 11:58:40 AM
I love all of James' work, am I the only one in thinking that the Mullmuzzler records were excellent and very unique? I love dearly the other three albums as well, but they're "just" hard heavy / prog / rock albums, the Mullmuzzler records were truly one of a kind. The first had the very best songs (His Voice, Statued, Guardian Angel, Shores of Avalon, Sacrifice), the second one is better overall as an album (I totally love Venice Burning, Confronting the Devil, Falling and Stranger).

Anyway, I love all of James' solo output, his solo concert was awesome and I wish he'd tour again for the most recent releases. I love too his voice, I don't play instruments and I was always drawn to vocals first and foremost, so James is the main reason I'm still a fan after all these years. James goes, I go, basically (Well, maybe not that drastically, I would surely check out if only for curiosity and loyalty to the other guys an album without James, but his voice is the main reason I listen to this band. If he was booted after Six Degrees, DT with another singer would have lost me around the Systematic Chaos / Black Clouds era).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: Stadler on January 21, 2016, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 21, 2016, 10:59:12 AM

Yea, it's a different style of music, the Mullmuzzler stuff was not for me, but I admit I didn't give it a fair shot.  It didn't hit me at all on first listen so I never bought the albums.  His last three are great though, wouldn't say better than DT.  It's different than DT, but I do think his performance is better on those albums... I mean it's his band, it should be in a way.

I'm sorry I'm hammering this point, but I don't have SPotify or anything like that; "different style" in the sense that Mullmuzzler is 80's synth pop? Or Death metal?  I know what SI sounds like (and I like that record very much).  Where in relation to that is the Mullmuzzler?

I just use youtube when I want to check out a band.  I don't use spotify either.  I haven't listened in a couple years, but I just remember it being very different.  A lot of people on this forum really like it though, so my opinion is just my own (obviously).  It was not heavy and maybe a bit more proggy than his newest albums (I mean, it sounds nothing like his two latest, which doesn't even sound anything like EoP but I like those albums a lot).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on January 21, 2016, 12:11:18 PM
Maybe I didn't hear it enough times, but I think Impermanent Resonance is easily the worst of three JL's albums. I love some tracks but there are fillers IMO. And Static Impulse is almost perfect, with exception in Superstar which is uninteresting to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 21, 2016, 12:13:40 PM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on January 21, 2016, 12:11:18 PM
Maybe I didn't hear it enough times, but I think Impermanent Resonance is easily the worst of three JL's albums. I love some tracks but there are fillers IMO. And Static Impulse is almost perfect, with exception in Superstar which is uninteresting to me.

Imho IR is the best LaBrie album by far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on January 21, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 21, 2016, 12:13:40 PM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on January 21, 2016, 12:11:18 PM
Maybe I didn't hear it enough times, but I think Impermanent Resonance is easily the worst of three JL's albums. I love some tracks but there are fillers IMO. And Static Impulse is almost perfect, with exception in Superstar which is uninteresting to me.

Imho IR is the best LaBrie album by far.
Wow. I really didn't listen to it or any songs from it since few months after release. I need to give it a spin while waiting for The Astonishing :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 21, 2016, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't like mike portnoys spastic drumming after the first chorus of misunderstood

If you mean in the instrumental section before the second verse, I 100% agree. That is probably the most random thing he has come up with and I have no idea how so many people think it fits. It sounds like someone just banging out random rhythms with no regard to what else is going on...totally kills the mood for me.
However, the drumming once the verse starts is very nice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 21, 2016, 04:52:35 PM
First two tracks aside, I never got into SI at all despite the similar style to IR. IR is amazing, and imo much better than any of DT's RR era albums.
Except for TA which I can't judge yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on January 21, 2016, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on January 21, 2016, 10:19:37 AM
I agree with Bosk1.  The last 3 JLB releases are a big step up ( I think) from the Mullmuzzler series.  That's why I compared only the last 3 JLB releases to the last 3 DT releases.  Another reason I made the comparisons is that JLB's releases have gotten progressively better.  DT's have not within that same time span.

Hmm, I feel that James' solo albums have gotten progressively more generic. Nothing in particular against the newer stuff, it seems more predictable and so is certainly more catchy. Where as the MullMuzzler stuff felt more progressive and surprising. Reminded me more of DT in that the instrumentation had some unique qualities to it and sometimes took a few listens to grow on you. I also prefer Static Impulse to Impermanent Resonance but that's because of one or two favourite songs, while it feels like IR didn't have any standout tracks but was amazingly consistent and still makes for a decent album. MullMuzzler albums while to me have the more interesting songs; are certainly not as consistent as about a third of each album I don't care for.

To be honest I'm more surprised that there are DT fans that haven't checked out JLB solo stuff, not like it matters, it's just for me that was the first thing I did after digging through DTs music was to find anything even slightly similar that I could get my hands on.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 22, 2016, 02:12:17 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on January 21, 2016, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: DT_12_Octavarium on January 21, 2016, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't like mike portnoys spastic drumming after the first chorus of misunderstood

If you mean in the instrumental section before the second verse, I 100% agree. That is probably the most random thing he has come up with and I have no idea how so many people think it fits. It sounds like someone just banging out random rhythms with no regard to what else is going on...totally kills the mood for me.
However, the drumming once the verse starts is very nice.

I think that section was inspired by Neil Peart's drumming (hear The Trees, at 1:47).

Quote from: Systolic on January 20, 2016, 01:33:12 PM
My controversial opinion(s):

Dream Theater hasn't released a great album in nearly 2 decades.

This one i agree but i do consider ToT in the range of a 6-7 solid record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on January 22, 2016, 03:44:58 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 21, 2016, 08:09:22 PM
Hmm, I feel that James' solo albums have gotten progressively more generic. Nothing in particular against the newer stuff, it seems more predictable and so is certainly more catchy. Where as the MullMuzzler stuff felt more progressive and surprising. Reminded me more of DT in that the instrumentation had some unique qualities to it and sometimes took a few listens to grow on you. I also prefer Static Impulse to Impermanent Resonance but that's because of one or two favourite songs, while it feels like IR didn't have any standout tracks but was amazingly consistent and still makes for a decent album.

Exactly how I feel.

But as I said earlier, overall I really appreciate all of James' solo records.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: thosava on January 22, 2016, 11:23:26 AM
This might be considered controversial:

Right now i think The Gift of Music is the third best DT song in more than a decade (since 2005), only behind Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany. Everything about that song is so perfect  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on January 22, 2016, 01:12:05 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion - I actually like MP's "tuff guy" vocals.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 22, 2016, 01:28:58 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on January 22, 2016, 01:12:05 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion - I actually like MP's "tuff guy" vocals.  ;D

Thank God. Everyone survived.

Roar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on January 22, 2016, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: thosava on January 22, 2016, 11:23:26 AM
This might be considered controversial:

Right now i think The Gift of Music is the third best DT song in more than a decade (since 2005), only behind Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany. Everything about that song is so perfect  :hefdaddy

Well you're certainly right when you say that Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany are the two best songs DT has released since 2005 (and by since 2005, I mean ever).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 22, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on January 22, 2016, 01:12:05 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion - I actually like MP's "tuff guy" vocals.  ;D

I like them too! :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IdoSC on January 22, 2016, 04:32:10 PM
Ooh are we still talking about JLB's solo work? I absolutely LOVE them. All of them. The first two are definitely up there with other albums that I consider "especially special". I wouldn't want about 70% of these songs on DT records just because it's a totally different style than anything they've done, but they're amazing in their own right, and I can't have enough of these vocal gymnastics James does in these two albums (see: As a Man Thinks, for the best example of that). Initially I preferred Keep it to Yourself but Mullmuzzler 2 is a real grower.

Elements of Persuasion is the kind of music you've come to expect to hear James singing over, in my opinion. Some people were confusing/trolled into believing that this album is actually Octavarium before its official release, and I can definitely see why. This stands in line with DT's discography the most out of his 5 albums. If I had to rank DT's 12 albums so far, then insert EoP into that ranking, it'd probably be in the top half and possibly not at the tail of that half, either.

Static Impulse was really what I needed to hear after DT's much recent (at the time) corny attempts at "edgy" music in their (then) 2 latest records (again, IMO), and the bland (IMO) performance of James in both of them. This was really done much better, James sounded great, enjoyable lyrics for the most part too. A little more straightforward than the first 3 albums but it was very fun still.

Impermanent Resonance is where I'm having some mixed feelings. Some songs are great, some really bore me. Also, I wish James would write some more lyrics on these as I like his "semi-political" and insightful writing a lot while things like "Back on the Ground" make me cringe so much. It's at a point where I like this song mostly because it's hysterically ridiculous to me, lyrics-wise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on January 22, 2016, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: 425 on January 22, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on January 22, 2016, 01:12:05 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion - I actually like MP's "tuff guy" vocals.  ;D

I like them too! :tup


On that note, A Nightmare To Remember has the best and worst vocal sections of DTs career, back to back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 22, 2016, 07:41:53 PM
Quote from: CableX on January 22, 2016, 07:37:44 PM
Quote from: 425 on January 22, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: matthewmatt on January 22, 2016, 01:12:05 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion - I actually like MP's "tuff guy" vocals.  ;D

I like them too! :tup

On that note, A Nightmare To Remember has the best and worst vocal sections of DTs career, back to back.

If you mean the vocal harmonies in Beautiful Agony, then I definitely agree with the best part. The worst is the entire WDADU disc.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 22, 2016, 09:22:57 PM
Controversial opinion:

I think 92/93 James LaBrie live is overrated. Sure, his voice was very powerful, high and clear back then, but his voice cracked a whole lot during live shows. He pushed himself too far and there are lots of bootlegs which people praise vocally in which JLB's voice cracks 3-4 times per song (at least). I'm aware he had some near-perfect shows (precisely in 92, I think...maybe wasteland can help me quite a bit!) in which his performance is an A+ from beginning to end, but in most bootlegs I've listened to from that time (maybe 20-something shows) his voice is cracking and he's throwing high notes all over the place just 'cause. NOTE: I do think his high notes are amazing from time to time (like on the end of The Killing Hand), but there's some places in which I think they were totally uncalled for...but maybe that's OK because it's the early 90s and people liked such performance styles, but who knows.

I love the guy, always have and always will, but I don't think he was the live vocal God in his 92/93 era most people put think he was.

I'd take a performance like A Change of Seasons from Live Scenes over his 92/93 performances any day of the week...because of all the control, all the power and all the passion that JLB prints into such a hard song to sing, and extra points for JLB for pulling off such an amazing vocal performance after almost 3 hours of show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 22, 2016, 09:30:38 PM
He also just screams out a lot of lyrics on some of the 92-93 shows...way too harsh for most of the songs. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 22, 2016, 09:35:25 PM
Quote from: pcs90 on January 22, 2016, 09:30:38 PM
He also just screams out a lot of lyrics on some of the 92-93 shows...way too harsh for most of the songs.
True, like on the bonus Another Day performance from the Score DVD.

YOU WON'T FIND IT HEEEERE, SO TRY ANOTHER DAAaAaAaAaAAAAAaaAay

I think he had the skills to replicate his amazing studio performance live, but he was way more aggressive with most of the songs that didn't really need the growl.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 23, 2016, 08:12:25 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 22, 2016, 09:22:57 PM
Controversial opinion:

I think 92/93 James LaBrie live is overrated. Sure, his voice was very powerful, high and clear back then, but his voice cracked a whole lot during live shows. He pushed himself too far and there are lots of bootlegs which people praise vocally in which JLB's voice cracks 3-4 times per song (at least). I'm aware he had some near-perfect shows (precisely in 92, I think...maybe wasteland can help me quite a bit!) in which his performance is an A+ from beginning to end, but in most bootlegs I've listened to from that time (maybe 20-something shows) his voice is cracking and he's throwing high notes all over the place just 'cause. NOTE: I do think his high notes are amazing from time to time (like on the end of The Killing Hand), but there's some places in which I think they were totally uncalled for...but maybe that's OK because it's the early 90s and people liked such performance styles, but who knows.

I love the guy, always have and always will, but I don't think he was the live vocal God in his 92/93 era most people put think he was.

I'd take a performance like A Change of Seasons from Live Scenes over his 92/93 performances any day of the week...because of all the control, all the power and all the passion that JLB prints into such a hard song to sing, and extra points for JLB for pulling off such an amazing vocal performance after almost 3 hours of show.

I think you'll probably find that his vocals were better earlier on during the world tour. I've listened to most of the bootlegs from that tour and just about every other tour. I think what happened was that his voice wasn't used to the consistent stress put on it. I mean, before Dream Theater, he did some shows with Winter Rose. I doubt they toured a whole lot. His vocals on the Winter Rose bootleg were really good. I remember one bootleg, which I'm pretty sure was from Oct 4, 1992 in Long Island, where he had killer vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on January 25, 2016, 06:42:48 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on January 21, 2016, 08:09:22 PM

To be honest I'm more surprised that there are DT fans that haven't checked out JLB solo stuff, not like it matters, it's just for me that was the first thing I did after digging through DTs music was to find anything even slightly similar that I could get my hands on.  :biggrin:

That's generally me, too, but at a certain point it becomes too much, and with all the Ytsejam stuff, then the stuff that Mike was involved in, then the breakup and what was (for me) a tarnishing of James from a personal perspective, I just never got into it.  I got Static Impulse at a used store in Philly for like a $1.00 or some shit, so I lucked into it, but never pursued it beyond that.  Now, I'm sort of in a lull with not a lot on tap so I figured I'd ask some questions and check it out. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dreamtheater360 on January 25, 2016, 07:47:18 AM
I can't stand JR playing the same digital sounding stuff on his iPad. I get it, you made a new app this month that sounds just like the app you made last month. I think he plays those type of sounds too much. For instance, once of my favorite songs is Octivarium, especially the like version on Score, but that first 4-5 minutes drive me insane and I skip it almost every time.

However, I love his playing otherwise.

OK, I feel better now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 25, 2016, 07:50:48 AM
Quote from: dreamtheater360 on January 25, 2016, 07:47:18 AM
I can't stand JR playing the same digital sounding stuff on his iPad. I get it, you made a new app this month that sounds just like the app you made last month. I think he plays those type of sounds too much. For instance, once of my favorite songs is Octivarium, especially the like version on Score, but that first 4-5 minutes drive me insane and I skip it almost every time.

However, I love his playing otherwise.

OK, I feel better now.

I skip the first 4-5 minutes of Octavarium from Score as well. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 11:06:47 AM
Quote from: dreamtheater360 on January 25, 2016, 07:47:18 AM
I can't stand JR playing the same digital sounding stuff on his iPad. I get it, you made a new app this month that sounds just like the app you made last month. I think he plays those type of sounds too much. For instance, once of my favorite songs is Octivarium, especially the like version on Score, but that first 4-5 minutes drive me insane and I skip it almost every time.

However, I love his playing otherwise.

OK, I feel better now.
I think the best example of his use of apps not fitting the song is the AROP solo. I thought the Octavarium thing was on continuum, not his iPad...
I prefer the intro on the studio album over the Score one. I feel it fits the song better and is in fact one of my favorite parts of Octavarium, which as a song I feel is vastly overrated anyway. But the Score version gets a little crazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 25, 2016, 11:28:58 AM
I think it was continuum as well, and agreed about ARoP, the beebot seems like it doesn't fit with the song.  Otherwise I have no problem with the use of the Ipad, it's really cool, just needs to go along with the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on January 25, 2016, 11:37:18 AM
The Octavarium solo is continuum, I'm pretty sure. Personally I love that intro, the one on Score is even better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on January 25, 2016, 12:16:56 PM
I've grown to like that continuum intro, too. I remember skipping it before but now it's one of my favorite parts of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 25, 2016, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: Onno on January 25, 2016, 11:37:18 AM
The Octavarium solo is continuum, I'm pretty sure. Personally I love that intro, the one on Score is even better.

The intro was on the continuum, but I thought the solo during the song was on the analog keyboard?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 25, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
I personally love that intro. Great use of the Continuum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on January 25, 2016, 02:33:02 PM
Aside from a couple less than great moments, Octavarium is one of the most tasteful and restrained Dream Theater albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: As I Am on January 25, 2016, 02:37:30 PM
Aside from Never Enough (ok) and Sacrificed Sons (nice intrumental in middle) , I think 8V is damn near great!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on January 25, 2016, 02:47:34 PM
For real? Sacrificed Sons is my favorite song on 8VM!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
1. I love Mangini's snare sound on DT12. It sound so....I dunno how to describe it.
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.
3. This Dying souls ending is one of the best instrumentai works.
4. BC&SL is one of their strongest albums. Talks about real-life situations and is some times heartwrenching to listen to.
5. I will forever serve Dark master and he is awesome.
6. All of Rudess' synth sounds great.
7. Portnoy is the weakest song writer.
8. Labrie is the best fit for DT.
9. Bosk is awesome.
10. Sampling is integral on DT songs. (I love sampling)
11. TCOT has the best closer.
12. Labrie is the most talented DT song writer.
13.  There are no songs that seem too long. Everything has its length for reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 25, 2016, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.

Interesting and definitely controversial.  I didn't really dislike his vocals, but I felt it unnecessary.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
10. Sampling is integral on DT songs. (I love sampling)

I cannot stand the samples.  I really dislike it in almost all music.  Sometimes they work, most times they don't for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vbrodrigues95 on January 25, 2016, 03:21:09 PM
1 - I really like Raw Dog
2 - I really like BC&SL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 25, 2016, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: vbrodrigues95 on January 25, 2016, 03:21:09 PM
1 - I really like Raw Dog
2 - I really like BC&SL

Agreed to both  :tup

BC&SL gets a lot of flack, but it's great.  Raw Dog just needs to be taken for what it is, a video game track that is just a fun instrumental, nothing more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 25, 2016, 03:58:02 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 25, 2016, 01:36:32 PM
I personally love that intro. Great use of the Continuum.


Me too.


And that sound has zero to do with iPads or apps. Bebot was his first use of an app sound on an album a couple of years later.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 04:09:36 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 25, 2016, 03:05:50 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.

Interesting and definitely controversial.  I didn't really dislike his vocals, but I felt it unnecessary.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
10. Sampling is integral on DT songs. (I love sampling)

I cannot stand the samples.  I really dislike it in almost all music.  Sometimes they work, most times they don't for me.

For the vocals, I don't understand the hate. It makes the mood more darker and you could actually feel the song sometimes. In POW, doesn't his vocals seem pretty bad ass?

And the sampling. I'm assuming your favorites are Voices,  HTF, and SDV? Just a guess
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 04:18:48 PM
Oh my!

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
1. I love Mangini's snare sound on DT12. It sound so....I dunno how to describe it.
I can describe it for you. terrible, awful, lifeless, mechanical, compressed, triggered...ok I'm done. :P
In all fairness on the HD version it's not as bad (still mechanical but it at least blends a little better) but on the regular album it drove me insane when I first heard it, haha.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.
Just curious, what mood do his vocals on Nightmare set for you? For me when that part comes up I cannot take the song seriously. I feel like I'm listening to a comedy album or something.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
3. This Dying souls ending is one of the best instrumentai works.
If technical means "best" then that's probably true, it is pretty crazy! I would probably rank it near the bottom but I totally see why people like this one. To give you an idea, I think the solos at the beginning are 100 times better.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
4. BC&SL is one of their strongest albums. Talks about real-life situations and is some times heartwrenching to listen to.
While I don't think it is near their best at all it has some amazing moments for me. The middle part of Nightmare is beautiful, JP's outro solo on Best of Times is one of his best and most emotional, and TCOT has a lot of amazing instrumental sections, like the end you mentioned later. I think a lot of the lyrics are pretty bad but those sections really make up for it. Plus I love their cover of Odyssey (much more than the original).

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
5. I will forever serve Dark master and he is awesome.
We really do have opposite tastes in songs lol

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
10. Sampling is integral on DT songs. (I love sampling)
I love it in certain songs, especially SDV (that is the absolute best use of samples in any song IMO) but most of the time it doesn't fit well, at least to me.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
12. Labrie is the most talented DT song writer.
I would love for him to write more for DT. He's written some songs that rank very highly for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.

I agree mostly, with the exception being the "Rawwwwrrrrr!" at the end of his vocal section on Nightmare.  I like the rest of the section, but that part just sounds silly.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
7. Portnoy is the weakest song writer.

In fairness though, most drummers aren't songwriters at all, or at least not the best or primary songwriter in a band.  But Mike really has a talent for song arrangements, even if people may feel that some of his arrangements may have gotten a bit stale toward the end of his time in DT.  I feel like he really brought a lot to the table in that department.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
9. Bosk is awesome.

Wait...since when is that controversial??

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
12. Labrie is the most talented DT song writer.

Okay, I have to disagree here.  James doesn't really write songs in DT.  In fact, even in his solo band, Matt does most of the writing.  As far as I know, he mostly only writes lyrics and sometimes vocal melodies.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
13.  There are no songs that seem too long. Everything has its length for reason.

I mostly agree with this.  But there are a handful of songs that I feel would benefit from just a bit of trimming. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 04:18:48 PM
Just curious, what mood do his vocals on Nightmare set for you? For me when that part comes up I cannot take the song seriously. I feel like I'm listening to a comedy album or something.

You have a very interesting concept of "comedy."  I don't understand at all what you mean by that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 25, 2016, 04:31:38 PM
Probably that they are so ridiculous and out of place that they must have been put there to be bad on purpose for the lols.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 04:34:10 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:27:01 PM
You have a very interesting concept of "comedy."  I don't understand at all what you mean by that.
They just sound so ridiculous to me that it makes me laugh, I guess. I don't know how else to explain it...one of those things that's just so weird and out of place it's amusing...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 04:34:34 PM
Quote from: abydos on January 25, 2016, 04:31:38 PM
Probably that they are so ridiculous and out of place that they must have been put there to be bad on purpose for the lols.
Beat me to it!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:36:34 PM
If you say so.  I have no idea how one could arrive at that conclusion, but whatever. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on January 25, 2016, 04:38:50 PM
Well, to you the "rawwr" is kinda silly. To some, the whole section is like that or worse. I personally feel that this section shouldn't have existed and the song wouldn't suffer for it, but if they insisted on it they should have hired some guest spot dude to do some type of growling that sounds good. Then, for the live versions MP could cover them and be silly with the cookie monster montage and everyone could have a laugh because it's goofy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 25, 2016, 04:45:23 PM
I always felt that section kinda showcased the flaw in DT's writing process. MP at some point released the "evolution" of the vocals, with JLB trying it, MP trying to go full cookie vocals, then softer cookie vocals..
The real problem seemed to me was their inability to get rid of the section altogether. By having recorded it already in full studio mode, it was now set in stone, and thus they had to settle for something that even they clearly didn't think was good. Had they created some demos first, they would have found that out there, and reworked the section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:47:53 PM
The fact that they had different opinions on how the vocals should be done does not by any stretch mean they didn't think the final product was good.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on January 25, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
They wouldn't have left it on the album if they didn't want it there. Removing it or reworking it wouldn't have taken much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
1. Portnoy leaving DT was the best thing that could have happened to the band at that point.
2. DT were idiots for not releasing the full rehearsal footage from the drummer auditions; I would pay top dollar to hear all the Minnemann jams.
3. Scenes from a Memory completely loses momentum after The Dance of Eternity.
4. (Not that I care but) The story for SFAM is absolutely rubbish.
5. Dream Theater made me cringe when they signed for Roadrunner and they started wearing "cool" clothes. and had all the t-shirt designs that made them look like an emo band.
6. Dream Theater should do more living jamming, even if it means dropping the Spirit Carries On or Pull Me Under.
7. The Shattered Fortress is awesome, and was awesome before they started performing it live.
8. DT12 is their worst album.
9. ADTOE sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality post-Train of Though.
10. They should let Jordan do more experimentation and weird stuff.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on January 25, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
1. Portnoy leaving DT was the best thing that could have happened to the band at that point.

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
8. DT12 is their worst album.
9. ADTOE sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality post-Train of Though.

I'm confused  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 06:06:55 PM
Quote from: CDrice on January 25, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
1. Portnoy leaving DT was the best thing that could have happened to the band at that point.

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
8. DT12 is their worst album.
9. ADTOE sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality post-Train of Though.

I'm confused  :lol

Ha, yeah not very clear. ADTOE was my favourite album since ToT, I don't love it but I actually listen to it every now and then. DT12 was such a step-back after the pleasant surprise that was ADTOE, BUT even though I don't like at all it I still respect it more than that very "safe" SC/BC&SL phase.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on January 25, 2016, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 06:06:55 PM
Quote from: CDrice on January 25, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
1. Portnoy leaving DT was the best thing that could have happened to the band at that point.

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
8. DT12 is their worst album.
9. ADTOE sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality post-Train of Though.

I'm confused  :lol

Ha, yeah not very clear. ADTOE was my favourite album since ToT, I don't love it but I actually listen to it every now and then. DT12 was such a step-back after the pleasant surprise that was ADTOE, BUT even though I don't like at all it I still respect it more than that very "safe" SC/BC&SL phase.

Ah, got it!  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 04:18:48 PM
Oh my!

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
1. I love Mangini's snare sound on DT12. It sound so....I dunno how to describe it.
I can describe it for you. terrible, awful, lifeless, mechanical, compressed, triggered...ok I'm done. :P
In all fairness on the HD version it's not as bad (still mechanical but it at least blends a little better) but on the regular album it drove me insane when I first heard it, haha.

My reply will be in pink. KK?  :biggrin:
And wow! Why'd it drive you insane? His snare sounded really poundable....like in Images and Words. I pity you. I understand that feeling of being driven insane.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.
Just curious, what mood do his vocals on Nightmare set for you? For me when that part comes up I cannot take the song seriously. I feel like I'm listening to a comedy album or something.

Petrucci was in a car accident and we can feel how frightened and kind of pissed he was. Portnoy's vocals really showed that as it is much more gruffer and more agonizing than Labrie's. You can feel the raw pain and frustration vented out at the end.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
3. This Dying souls ending is one of the best instrumentai works.
If technical means "best" then that's probably true, it is pretty crazy! I would probably rank it near the bottom but I totally see why people like this one. To give you an idea, I think the solos at the beginning are 100 times better.
Yes, technical. Although it rivals TDEN. In terms of melodious, yes, definitely. But I think the ending was like a dagger, you know? Like a big BOOM!

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
4. BC&SL is one of their strongest albums. Talks about real-life situations and is some times heartwrenching to listen to.
While I don't think it is near their best at all it has some amazing moments for me. The middle part of Nightmare is beautiful, JP's outro solo on Best of Times is one of his best and most emotional, and TCOT has a lot of amazing instrumental sections, like the end you mentioned later. I think a lot of the lyrics are pretty bad but those sections really make up for it. Plus I love their cover of Odyssey (much more than the original).

Yeah, the song has a lot of amazing moments. What you said about The Best of Times is  :tup. Wither is a really nice ballad. I have a strange attraction to AROP. Really nice lyrics. Basically, love the instrumental.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
5. I will forever serve Dark master and he is awesome.
We really do have opposite tastes in songs lol

 :lol

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
10. Sampling is integral on DT songs. (I love sampling)
I love it in certain songs, especially SDV (that is the absolute best use of samples in any song IMO) but most of the time it doesn't fit well, at least to me.

6:00's sample makes me cringe. Yeah, SDV and HTF have two of the best samples. Also love Voices.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
12. Labrie is the most talented DT song writer.
I would love for him to write more for DT. He's written some songs that rank very highly for me.
Yeah. Most of his lyrics are really awesome, like Blind Faith (of course), Disappear (<3), etc.


Quote from: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
2. Portnoy's vocals are one of the best things he brought. It sets the mood, especially on Nightmare.

I agree mostly, with the exception being the "Rawwwwrrrrr!" at the end of his vocal section on Nightmare.  I like the rest of the section, but that part just sounds silly.

What if you thought of it as venting out the frustration and anger out? Like Rawwwwwr, you almost cost me and my family's life!!!!!!

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
7. Portnoy is the weakest song writer.

In fairness though, most drummers aren't songwriters at all, or at least not the best or primary songwriter in a band.  But Mike really has a talent for song arrangements, even if people may feel that some of his arrangements may have gotten a bit stale toward the end of his time in DT.  I feel like he really brought a lot to the table in that department.

That makes total sense. He still put up some really nice songs. I mean, The Twelve Step Suite is very memorable.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
9. Bosk is awesome.

Wait...since when is that controversial??

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
12. Labrie is the most talented DT song writer.

Okay, I have to disagree here.  James doesn't really write songs in DT.  In fact, even in his solo band, Matt does most of the writing.  As far as I know, he mostly only writes lyrics and sometimes vocal melodies.

Oh wow. By DT song writer, I meant only lyrics. When I said song writer, did it protrude to something else like arrangements?

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
13.  There are no songs that seem too long. Everything has its length for reason.

I mostly agree with this.  But there are a handful of songs that I feel would benefit from just a bit of trimming. 

I'm guessing ANTR, HTF, BTL, etc?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
Images and Words Controversial Opinion

REMEMBER, THIS IS ALL OPINION! FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE AND STATE REASONS, BUT PLEASE DON'T HATE ME FOR IT!!

1. Pull Me Under is honestly so overrated. I mean seriously. I don't know why there is all the attention for PMU.
2. Another Day has the greatest and widest vocal range in I&W. Way larger than Take The Time, Metropolis Part 1, and Learning to Live.
3. Lyrics on Metropolis Part 1 excel more than its instrumental section. Not all the band members needed a solo.....
4. Surrounded is a really nice song and is much better than Pull Me Under.
5. Under a Glass Moon's solo of Petrucci does not appeal to me at all. It doesn't have any effect on me.
6. Wait For Sleep gives some of Kevin Moore's most emotional and heart felt piano playing.
7. Unfortunately, I don't like the synth Moore uses for Surrounded in the beginning. It ruins the experience. The piano was great though.
8. Learning to Live's "Wait For Sleep" melody Moore plays is one of the smoothest transitions I have ever heard.
9. Images and Words is good, but compared to other albums, it would not be in my top three or top five.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 25, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
Okay, the quotes are a mess.  :lol  But I will do my best:

Quote
What if you thought of it as venting out the frustration and anger out? Like Rawwwwwr, you almost cost me and my family's life!!!!!!
Huh, I hadn't thought about it that way, but that actually fits.  Okay.

Quote
That makes total sense. He still put up some really nice songs. I mean, The Twelve Step Suite is very memorable.
Yeah, but most of the music for that was primarily JP with some stuff from Rudess.  Mike may have contributed a bit to the writing, but was mostly the arrangement guy.  And the lyrics, of course, were his.

Quote
I'm guessing ANTR, HTF, BTL, etc?

I would include ANTR, but not the other two you mentioned.  And ANTR isn't overly long.  But the instrumental section just feels like it could have :30-:60 seconds trimmed and it would be much tighter.  I feel the same with TGP, TDSW, and TSF.  All very good songs, but ever so slightly lose focus during the instrumental sections and could do with just a bit of trimming to tighten them up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 06:37:18 PM
And wow! Why'd it drive you insane? His snare sounded really poundable....like in Images and Words. I pity you. I understand that feeling of being driven insane.
Driven insane by One Direction? :lol
I just don't like really mechanical snares. I'm not a fan of IW's snare sound either though I prefer that one if I absolutely had to pick. I prefer a more natural and dynamic sound. I learned to not let it bother me though because I absolutely love DT12 and it would be a crime to let the drum sound ruin the album for me.

Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 25, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
Petrucci was in a car accident and we can feel how frightened and kind of pissed he was. Portnoy's vocals really showed that as it is much more gruffer and more agonizing than Labrie's. You can feel the raw pain and frustration vented out at the end.
Well, I'm glad you get something out of it. I tried again and I just don't feel it. There are plenty of moments where James shows those types of emotions in songs without...doing what MP is doing. XD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 25, 2016, 09:13:31 PM
Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
1. Portnoy leaving DT was the best thing that could have happened to the band at that point.
2. DT were idiots for not releasing the full rehearsal footage from the drummer auditions; I would pay top dollar to hear all the Minnemann jams.
I absolutely agree with both of these. Minnemann is outstanding but I bet the band had great jams with all of the drummers.

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
6. Dream Theater should do more living jamming, even if it means dropping the Spirit Carries On or Pull Me Under.
Agree again! They did do that Trial of Tears intro on the last 3rd or so of the last tour though. That was awesome!

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
8. DT12 is their worst album.
And I think it is one of their best. :lol

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
9. ADTOE sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality post-Train of Though.
If you mean in a good way, I agree although instead of TOT I pick Octavarium as the other good album from that period.

Quote from: phospheneSOI on January 25, 2016, 05:46:55 PM
10. They should let Jordan do more experimentation and weird stuff.
Nomac tracks. :D

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 25, 2016, 10:35:25 PM
I just listened to BCSL again as part of my full-discography run coming into The Astonishing. I still think that "Day After Day" is one of the strongest moments on that album and that the album is one of the finest albums in their discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on January 25, 2016, 10:40:35 PM
I actually prefer FII to I&W :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 25, 2016, 10:42:37 PM
Angels fall... All for you...



Yeah, I listened to SC today too... :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on January 25, 2016, 10:44:27 PM
That's an album that, despite the cheese, doesn't deserve all the hate it receives  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on January 25, 2016, 10:51:24 PM
BC&SL > SFAM

Glad to see it getting some love in this thread. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on January 25, 2016, 11:47:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on January 25, 2016, 10:51:24 PM
BC&SL > SFAM

Oh yeah, I would agree with this. And not just because it's deliberately controversial. I enjoy SFAM but I would say it's only as good as their other albums but BC&SL has still left a stronger impression on me.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 25, 2016, 11:50:01 PM
Those two are very close in quality. I'm not sure which one I would say is better than the other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on January 26, 2016, 04:19:02 AM
Quote from: Sacul on January 25, 2016, 10:40:35 PM
I actually prefer FII to I&W :P

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on January 25, 2016, 10:51:24 PM
BC&SL > SFAM

Glad to see it getting some love in this thread. :)

Agree with both. In fact, out of the pre-6DOIT albums, SFaM is just barely edging out Falling and on some days FII actually wins.

Oh, and I strongly dislike Moore.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on January 26, 2016, 05:09:26 AM
Quote from: Sacul on January 25, 2016, 10:44:27 PM
That's an album that, despite the cheese, doesn't deserve all the hate it receives  :metal
Songs on it are great but I can't listen SC in one take, I find it very tiring to listen as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on January 26, 2016, 06:19:39 AM
re: JLB's solo albums
I don't care much for EOP outside of a few standout tracks, but the latest 2 are awesome :metal
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 22, 2016, 09:22:57 PM
Controversial opinion:

I think 92/93 James LaBrie live is overrated. Sure, his voice was very powerful, high and clear back then, but his voice cracked a whole lot during live shows. He pushed himself too far and there are lots of bootlegs which people praise vocally in which JLB's voice cracks 3-4 times per song (at least). I'm aware he had some near-perfect shows (precisely in 92, I think...maybe wasteland can help me quite a bit!) in which his performance is an A+ from beginning to end, but in most bootlegs I've listened to from that time (maybe 20-something shows) his voice is cracking and he's throwing high notes all over the place just 'cause. NOTE: I do think his high notes are amazing from time to time (like on the end of The Killing Hand), but there's some places in which I think they were totally uncalled for...but maybe that's OK because it's the early 90s and people liked such performance styles, but who knows.

I love the guy, always have and always will, but I don't think he was the live vocal God in his 92/93 era most people put think he was.
:iagree:

On the unofficial '93 live recording from Warwick there are some cringeworthy voice cracks, and James' voice sounds hoarse from all the screaming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on January 26, 2016, 06:35:46 AM
BC&SL is the only DT album I consider mediocre. The only songs from it that I like from beginning to end are Wither and TCOT; the rest have at least one significant section that bring them down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 26, 2016, 08:06:02 AM
Quote from: Randaran on January 26, 2016, 06:35:46 AM
BC&SL is the only DT album I consider mediocre. The only songs from it that I like from beginning to end are Wither and TCOT; the rest have at least one significant section that bring them down.

That's not really controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheFrozenInferno on January 26, 2016, 08:06:57 AM
Quote from: Randaran on January 26, 2016, 06:35:46 AM
BC&SL is the only DT album I consider mediocre. The only songs from it that I like from beginning to end are Wither and TCOT; the rest have at least one significant section that bring them down.

BC&SL was a major low point for me as a DT fan. The album just never really clicked for me (I did like Wither though), and I didn't like the way things seemed to be heading. Then the whole MP thing happened and I wasn't sure the band could recover. I really didn't want them to go out on BC&SL.

Thankfully Mangini has worked out great and the last two albums have rejuvenated the band in a way I didn't expect. I'm fully on board again and excited for The Astonishing. BC&SL is water under the bridge for me now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 08:35:40 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.
Close to to the top, but the main dragged imo is the shattered fortress. Ugh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 08:54:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.

Easily over the Count?  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 08:54:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.

Easily over the Count?  :omg:

I could EASILY say Hef is right.  ...but since A Nightmare To Remember, The Shattered Fortress, and The Count of Tuscany (in that order) exist, I won't.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 09:01:32 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 08:54:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.

Easily over the Count?  :omg:
Yes.  I love the intro music for Count, and from the middle "ambient" section to the end, but the lyrics are laughable, and I don't care for either the music or the delivery by JLB of the main portion of the song leading up to the ambient section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Hef, this may seem silly, but over Passage?!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 09:11:59 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Hef, this may seem silly, but over Passage?!!

lol if it's over the Count, it's easily over Passage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Randaran on January 26, 2016, 09:13:49 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on January 26, 2016, 08:06:02 AM
That's not really controversial.

What about this: ANTR and AROP are both bottom 5 DT songs. The second half of Nightmare is a chore to listen to, and Passage is saved only by its second verse and chorus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:14:23 AM
I mean I can understand count. AROP, what doesn't it have? Honestly it's more successful than PMU, not critic wise. I just don't understand the hate for the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:14:23 AM
I mean I can understand count. AROP, what doesn't it have? Honestly it's more successful than PMU, not critic wise. I just don't understand the hate for the song.

Well it DOES have the bebot  :biggrin:, but I really like BC&SL all around including AROP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:29:33 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:14:23 AM
I mean I can understand count. AROP, what doesn't it have? Honestly it's more successful than PMU, not critic wise. I just don't understand the hate for the song.

Well it DOES have the bebot  :biggrin:, but I really like BC&SL all around including AROP.
I'm glad you like it! But let's break it down. AROP had a good chorus, a catchy one at that too. Instrumental section, check. Sampling, check. Riffing, check.Rudess solo, bebop doesnt sound bad at all. Misunderstood has that kooky Petrucci thing at the end and doesn't get much hate as AROP. The verses are structured well and the lyrics aren't bad at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JediKnight1969 on January 26, 2016, 09:32:07 AM
The fact "Whiter" can easily be blended into "Gangnam style" proves it's basic structure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJbTyFzqZu0

The Count of Tuscany is astronomically better.

I don't give a #uck about lyrics. For me it's all about music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on January 26, 2016, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:14:23 AM
I mean I can understand count. AROP, what doesn't it have? Honestly it's more successful than PMU, not critic wise. I just don't understand the hate for the song.

It's exactly the contrary of PMU. PMU is memorable, a memorable riff (an acoustic one too) and vocal melodies all round, a nice display of how good DT's songwriting used to be. AROP is pretty forgettable, plus it has a cringeworthy keyboard solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 09:43:36 AM
Personally, I have no problem with AROP.  It just doesn't have much that grabs me either.  I enjoy it when listening to the album and it comes on, but I would never seek it out or listen to the album because of that song.  As I have said numerous times through the years, SC and BCSL to me both suffer from just being inconsistent.  They both have some great songs, as well as some songs that just don't do much for me.  And if I were doing a mashup of the best of both of those albums to create one single album of the best of those, it would be among the strongest in DT's catalog, but AROP would have no prayer of making that list (leaving aside for a moment the fact that songs lengths of the songs that should make the cut would make it impossible to fit them all onto one CD anyway). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on January 26, 2016, 09:44:45 AM
AROP is the weakest song there and one of the lamest DT tracks overall. One of their few that actually makes me cringe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on January 26, 2016, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:14:23 AM
I mean I can understand count. AROP, what doesn't it have? Honestly it's more successful than PMU, not critic wise. I just don't understand the hate for the song.
Good? Alright I'll give you that, it's alright. Better than PMU? Not even close! You're in the right thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on January 26, 2016, 09:46:28 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:29:33 AM
I'm glad you like it! But let's break it down. AROP had a good chorus, a catchy one at that too. Instrumental section, check. Sampling, check. Riffing, check.Rudess solo, bebop doesnt sound bad at all. Misunderstood has that kooky Petrucci thing at the end and doesn't get much hate as AROP. The verses are structured well and the lyrics aren't bad at all.
If the sampling and Portnoy's verse vocals weren't there (the harmonies in the chorus are perfectly fine), and if the iPhone solo wasn't in there, it would be quite a bit higher for me. Having said that I agree that it's much better than PMU and I do like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sacul on January 26, 2016, 09:52:08 AM
Misunderstood's outro is fantastic  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 26, 2016, 09:55:39 AM
Quote from: Sacul on January 26, 2016, 09:52:08 AM
Misunderstood's outro is fantastic  :metal

It is, as is the rest of that song (or the album, for that matter).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 10:26:41 AM
Quote from: OnTheBacksofAngela on January 26, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Hef, this may seem silly, but over Passage?!!
Nothing great about that song.  It's worse than bad; it's average.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on January 26, 2016, 10:28:54 AM
In my top tier of Dream Theater albums, I don't have Six Degrees. I think the album is a little tough to get through from start to finish, and I've never loved "The Great Debate".

Instead of SDOIT, I have the self-titled album rounding out my favorites, alongside Images, Awake, and Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 10:33:04 AM
Such an unseasoned opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jvelvet3 on January 26, 2016, 10:34:31 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
The hell. Wither is the only song dragging BC&SL down from being a top 3 album.
I think Wither is easily the best song on the album.

Wither is a top 10 DT song for me. Partly because I love the video for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2016, 10:35:10 AM
The video is great.  Possibly DT's best (although that isn't really saying much lol).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mark Levinson Jr. on January 26, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT : I think Mike Portnoy is going to make an album where he is the lead singer, and not play drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: As I Am on January 26, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT for today is...........The Astonishing is going to be considered a complete debacle. There I said it! :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: Mark Levinson Jr. on January 26, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT : I think Mike Portnoy is going to make an album where he is the lead singer, and not play drums.
Quote from: As I Am on January 26, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT for today is...........The Astonishing is going to be considered a complete debacle. There I said it! :yarr

Speculation about future events is not the same as an "opinion."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 10:55:15 AM
Controversial predictions
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on January 26, 2016, 10:57:03 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on January 26, 2016, 10:55:15 AM
Controversial predictions

That should be another 200+ pages thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on January 26, 2016, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 10:33:04 AM
Such an unseasoned opinion.

You should Outlaw such things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: As I Am on January 26, 2016, 01:59:31 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: Mark Levinson Jr. on January 26, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT : I think Mike Portnoy is going to make an album where he is the lead singer, and not play drums.
Quote from: As I Am on January 26, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT for today is...........The Astonishing is going to be considered a complete debacle. There I said it! :yarr

Speculation about future events is not the same as an "opinion."

Ha,ha...good point. Just want to mention, I hope I'm incredibly wrong in my "prediction" :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on January 26, 2016, 05:07:28 PM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on January 26, 2016, 10:28:54 AM
In my top tier of Dream Theater albums, I don't have Six Degrees.

In my bottom tier of Dream Theater albums, I have Six Degrees.

And by "bottom tier" I mean "last place."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 26, 2016, 05:10:38 PM
And I'll assume both of you were dropped on your head as a young child.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertie_Wooster on January 26, 2016, 05:47:45 PM
Would Neal Morse be a good keyboard player for DT?   I am of two minds on this subject.
I am sure people have controversial opinions about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 26, 2016, 05:51:24 PM
IMO, no.  I mean, he is a fantastic keyboardist (and musician in general).  But metal is not his style at all.  But then again, it was not Jordan's either originally, so...  :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertie_Wooster on January 26, 2016, 05:57:36 PM
He would not do justice to Jordan's stuff for sure.  Only he knows how to make the sounds he makes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertie_Wooster on January 26, 2016, 06:23:49 PM
controversial opinion.    Dream Theater should collaborate with Lindsey Stirling and make a youtube video with her.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on February 05, 2016, 04:18:06 PM
A Vision is one of, if not my all-time favourite Majesty/DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 05, 2016, 05:19:38 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Yes!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 05, 2016, 09:18:31 PM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on January 26, 2016, 10:28:54 AM
In my top tier of Dream Theater albums, I don't have Six Degrees. I think the album is a little tough to get through from start to finish, and I've never loved "The Great Debate".

Instead of SDOIT, I have the self-titled album rounding out my favorites, alongside Images, Awake, and Scenes.

I think DT12 is far better than many give it credit for being, but even I can't place it that high. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 05, 2016, 10:39:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on February 05, 2016, 09:18:31 PM
I think DT12 is far better than many give it credit for being, but even I can't place it that high. 
DT12 is in my top 3. I bet I'm in the minority with that one!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:43:50 PM
DT12 is in my top 3 too. The top 3 weakest DT albums. :biggrin: I'd only put WDADU lower.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM
Ok what is DT12?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM
Ok what is DT12?

The self titled album, the one before The Astonishing.
DT12 is the de facto nickname for it here (being DT's 12th album) because self titling an album is silly and confusing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 05, 2016, 10:49:37 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:43:50 PM
DT12 is in my top 3 too. The top 3 weakest DT albums. :biggrin: I'd only put WDADU lower.
Somehow I expected this... :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 05, 2016, 11:40:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:43:50 PM
DT12 is in my top 3 too. The top 3 weakest DT albums. :biggrin: I'd only put WDADU lower.

Would you pick DT12 or the second half of Awake?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 11:45:51 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM
Ok what is DT12?

The self titled album, the one before The Astonishing.
DT12 is the de facto nickname for it here (being DT's 12th album) because self titling an album is silly and confusing.

That's what I thought. Thanks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 11:45:54 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on February 05, 2016, 11:40:01 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:43:50 PM
DT12 is in my top 3 too. The top 3 weakest DT albums. :biggrin: I'd only put WDADU lower.

Would you pick DT12 or the second half of Awake?

DT12 easily. :lol I don't really dislike DT12, I just find it the most unremarkable of all their albums, no real high points at all except for the orchestral break the band didn't play on.
If I were comparing Awake as a whole to DT12 though, easily Awake. While things always get bogged down by my dislike of the tail end, everything up to and including The Mirror ranges from great to excellent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on February 05, 2016, 11:51:06 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 11:45:54 PM
DT12 easily. :lol I don't really dislike DT12, I just find it the most unremarkable of all their albums, no real high points at all except for the orchestral break the band didn't play on.
If I were comparing Awake as a whole to DT12 though, easily Awake. While things always get bogged down by my dislike of the tail end, everything up to and including The Mirror ranges from great to excellent.
Cool.
Yeah, I dunno, I'm kinda tired of trying to figure out and explain my love of DT12. It's probably due to the fact that I was somewhat underwhelmed by the preceeding 2 albums. ADTOE I liked a lot when it first came out, and felt like a proper return to form for DT, but it didn't grow on me as well, and DT12 just felt refreshing for some reason. I still regard it quite highly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Oh man, I missed this!  Where did this happen?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 06, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Oh man, I missed this!  Where did this happen?
A fan-made video, last year. I don't know if I'm I allowed to post it :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on February 06, 2016, 01:47:46 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 06, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Oh man, I missed this!  Where did this happen?
A fan-made video, last year. I don't know if I'm I allowed to post it :lol
Why not, it was already posted here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E73HQeiFhww
And my favorite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKwI52B42M
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on February 06, 2016, 02:06:07 PM
Awake is their best album bar none. Is that controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on February 06, 2016, 02:18:02 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on February 06, 2016, 02:06:07 PM
Awake is their best album bar none. Is that controversial?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. Many people like it a lot. In any case, it's my favorite DT album.

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on February 06, 2016, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: As I Am on January 26, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
My Controversial Opinion on DT for today is...........The Astonishing is going to be considered a complete debacle. There I said it! :yarr

Unfortunately, you may be right.  For myself, it's a turn off for the record and the show.... for the first time ever. No epic songs, too much ballads.  The heavier songs are not amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 06, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 05, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
One of the top 3 best things that has come out of BC&SL is the fan-made Disco Album of remixes of the master tracks.
Oh man, I missed this!  Where did this happen?
A fan-made video, last year. I don't know if I'm I allowed to post it :lol
Thanks, yeah I wasn't sure of the rules in this regard, hence my vagueness... wanted to be safe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2016, 03:13:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM
Ok what is DT12?

The self titled album, the one before The Astonishing.
DT12 is the de facto nickname for it here (being DT's 12th album) because self titling an album is silly and confusing.

Some people may also call it DTDT but DT12 was the forum voted shortcut for it instead of putting " Dream Theater : Dream Theater " every time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 08:54:07 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 06, 2016, 03:13:39 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2016, 10:48:15 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on February 05, 2016, 10:46:11 PM
Ok what is DT12?

The self titled album, the one before The Astonishing.
DT12 is the de facto nickname for it here (being DT's 12th album) because self titling an album is silly and confusing.

Some people may also call it DTDT but DT12 was the forum voted shortcut for it instead of putting " Dream Theater : Dream Theater " every time.

And forum polls are legally binding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 06, 2016, 09:45:33 PM
Was the use of the DT12 abbreviation really a direct result of a forum poll, or is it just the way things organically ended up happening?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 09:50:57 PM
Nah, it just became the most accepted, even by the time we made a poll. The poll was just DTF being DTF, it's not as if it was to decide an official abbreviation that everyone had to use. You'll still see people referring to the album as DT or DTDT, it's just not common.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
One that was never settled is SDOIT vs 6DOIT. Or I&W and IAW.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 10:05:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
One that was never settled is SDOIT vs 6DOIT. Or I&W and IAW.

:lol Do those need to be settled? Are we that pedantic? Ah who am I kidding, of course we are!

I remember the discussion at the time of Octavarium about the abbreviation, and I still occasionally see some weird ones. I go with 8V, but I still see 8VM sometimes too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 06, 2016, 10:05:48 PM
LOL. Using something other than just letters is always fun, so I always go with DT12, 6DOIT and I&W.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 06, 2016, 10:06:25 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 09:50:57 PM
Nah, it just became the most accepted, even by the time we made a poll. The poll was just DTF being DTF, it's not as if it was to decide an official abbreviation that everyone had to use. You'll still see people referring to the album as DT or DTDT, it's just not common.

That's how I remembered it happening, but the talk of a poll made me wonder if I had misremembered it.



Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
One that was never settled is SDOIT vs 6DOIT. Or I&W and IAW.

Or BC&SL vs. BCASL vs. BCSL.

It should be SDOIT. The other two I don't have a strong opinion about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 06, 2016, 10:06:25 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
One that was never settled is SDOIT vs 6DOIT. Or I&W and IAW.

Or BC&SL vs. BCASL vs. BCSL.

It should be SDOIT. The other two I don't have a strong opinion about.

I always go with letters simply because I find it quicker and easier when typing it out, which is the whole point of abbreviating to begin with. Aside from that, as long as the meaning is understood, it's all good. The only one of those I'm opposed to is BCSL. The name of the album is not Black Clouds Silver Linings dammit!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:09:48 PM
I think DT12 should be DTXII. Just sayin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 06, 2016, 10:10:49 PM
I'll settle these for you guys. IW, SDOIT, BCSL. You're welcome!

Also, S/T (though I wished they name it Dream Theatre).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 10:11:06 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:09:48 PM
I think DT12 should be DTXII. Just sayin.

But then people have to remember Roman numerals!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEGwKTQrqmQ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 06, 2016, 10:12:02 PM
Quote from: abydos on February 06, 2016, 10:10:49 PM
I'll settle these for you guys. IW, SDOIT, BCSL. You're welcome!

The bolded ones make no sense!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 06, 2016, 10:13:30 PM
You mentally fill in the missing parts, just like you normally do with abbreviations. I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 06, 2016, 10:14:18 PM
Oh, so we can do SFM for Scenes, A for the new album, ACS for A Change of Seasons and TT for Train of Thought? ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 06, 2016, 10:17:49 PM
Not for ToT. It's fun to say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 11:55:14 PM
I prefer the ones that are pronounceable in my head...
WDADU = wuhdadoo
ACOS = a-cause
FII = feeee
SFAM = ess-fam
SDOIT = ess-"do it!"
TOT = taught
BCASL = bee-castle
ADTOE = add-toe



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 12:04:14 AM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 11:55:14 PM
WDADU = wuhdadoo

(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/DTF/WADADOO.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 07, 2016, 12:06:51 AM
Oh and don't even get me started on Five Years in a Livetime. FYiALT? 5YiAL? FYALT?

Also: I always pronounce WDADU it like that! Also SDoIT is "Six Do It" in my head.

Can't believe we're actually discussing this man
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 12:11:06 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 07, 2016, 12:06:51 AM
Oh and don't even get me started on Five Years in a Lifetime. FYiALT? 5YiAL? FYALT?

It's easier just to not mention it at all. :P
I always think wadadoo when I see WDADU now, and I read ACOS and BCASL phonetically too. Whenever I see ACOS, I think math.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on February 07, 2016, 12:12:31 AM
The worst is when people do this:

Quote
11. BC&SL
12. WDADU

Consistency? How does that work?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 12:14:13 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on February 07, 2016, 12:12:31 AM
The worst is when people do this:

Quote
11. BC&SL
12. WDADU

Consistency? How does that work?

If you want to get technical, WDADU's title on the album cover is When Dream And Day Unite, whereas BCASL is actually written on the album cover as Black Clouds & Silver Linings, not as Black Clouds And Silver Linings, so it's actually keeping with how it's written, even though the meaning is the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial abbreviations on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 07, 2016, 05:42:43 AM
"Your Controversial abbreviations on DT"

Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 12:04:14 AM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 06, 2016, 11:55:14 PM
WDADU = wuhdadoo

(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/DTF/WADADOO.jpg)

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 07, 2016, 05:49:00 AM
This thread has turned fckng stpid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheAtliator on February 07, 2016, 05:57:17 AM
This is probably the stupidest thing I'll ever post (don't quote me on that) but I always read ADTOE like a phrase "a DT o' E" where E stands for excellence. Because it's just a DT album of excellence. It's- a DT o' E.

I always sound out "six-doit" though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on February 07, 2016, 06:29:47 AM
Quote from: TheAtliator on February 07, 2016, 05:57:17 AM
This is probably the stupidest thing I'll ever post (don't quote me on that) but I always read ADTOE like a phrase "a DT o' E" where E stands for excellence. Because it's just a DT album of excellence. It's- a DT o' E.

I always sound out "six-doit" though.
Judas Priest almost got sued for telling: "Do it" :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 10:05:35 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
One that was never settled is SDOIT vs 6DOIT. Or I&W and IAW.

:lol Do those need to be settled? Are we that pedantic? Ah who am I kidding, of course we are!

I remember the discussion at the time of Octavarium about the abbreviation, and I still occasionally see some weird ones. I go with 8V, but I still see 8VM sometimes too.

Octavarium is the weirdest one. I see 8VM. 8VRM. Octave8 ??? 8VARIUM.

I write " Octavarium ". No muss, no fuss. :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:08:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2016, 10:11:06 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2016, 10:09:48 PM
I think DT12 should be DTXII. Just sayin.

But then people have to remember Roman numerals!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEGwKTQrqmQ

The ones that annoy me are when it's wrong.

Like, instead of ACOS for A Change Of Seasons - sometimes people put ACOF

I can't tell you how many times i've seen the Metallica album Kill Em All abbreviated to KEM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:10:48 AM
I've seen FII as FIF a few times. Falling Into Finity?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
Aw for Awake is another weird one, like we can abbreviate every word by just putting the first two letters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 07, 2016, 08:16:36 AM
I always use 8VM for Octavarium but I guess it's also wrong since it's a single word



All of this stuff has made me wonder how we always think of Space-Dye Vest when talking about SDV instead of Strange Déja Vu :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:16:59 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
Aw for Awake is another weird one, like we can abbreviate every word by just putting the first two letters.

I find it silly trying to shorten Awake at all, given that it's already as short as a lot of the other album acronyms like WDADU, SDOIT, BCASL, ADTOE.


Quote from: LCArenas on February 07, 2016, 08:16:36 AM
All of this stuff has made me wonder how we always think of Space-Dye Vest when talking about SDV instead of Strange Déja Vu :lol

I never think of Space Dye Vest. Ever. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wizard of Thought on February 07, 2016, 08:19:29 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
Aw for Awake is another weird one, like we can abbreviate every word by just putting the first two letters.

Now seriously, why even abbreviate a title which consists of ONE word. Awake is the most exaggerated one of course since the title is only 5 letters long. Why would anyone have to abbreviate this title or Octavarium?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:25:34 AM
8 = octave VM ? Varium ?

But it's Octav-arium not Octave Varium.

8AM would be more appropriate. or OVM.

Or just write out Octavarium - because it takes like 1 second. Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:25:34 AM
8AM would be more appropriate.
No. That's confusing. Because everyone knows the official abbreviation for 6:00 is 6AM, too close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:34:02 AM
haha imagine abbreviating 6:00 to 6AM. IT SOLVES NOTHING :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:25:34 AM
8 = octave VM ? Varium ?

But it's Octav-arium not Octave Varium.

8AM would be more appropriate. or OVM.

Or just write out Octavarium - because it takes like 1 second. Octavarium.

8 = oct (like octagon)
V = varium.

You're overthinking this, Kotowboy. :lol But I guess that's the prog thing to do! :P

Octavarium isn't a fun word to type out either. 8V is several times quicker, which is good when you're a lazy shit like me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Gromit1710 on February 07, 2016, 08:54:52 AM
>.>

Think this got started because there's a specific musical notation for playing a note one octave higher. The 8v thing is probably rooted in that.



The 8va (pronounced ottava alta) sign is placed above the staff (as shown) to tell the musician to play the passage one octave higher.


(https://www.decodeunicode.org/de/data/glyph/196x196/1D136.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 07, 2016, 10:38:03 AM
I feel trapped inside this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:25:34 AM
8 = octave VM ? Varium ?

But it's Octav-arium not Octave Varium.

8AM would be more appropriate. or OVM.

Or just write out Octavarium - because it takes like 1 second. Octavarium.

8 = oct (like octagon)
V = varium.

You're overthinking this, Kotowboy. :lol But I guess that's the prog thing to do! :P

Octavarium isn't a fun word to type out either. 8V is several times quicker, which is good when you're a lazy shit like me.


Octavarium Octavarium Octavarium.

I typed out three Octavarium and I didn't vary 'em :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 12:00:56 PM
Alright here's a controversial one: the drum part to Metropolis part 1 has some of the most tasteless and annoying drum fills I've heard. I don't understand how people complain about mangini's "machine gun" fills and then praise the drum part of Metropolis. Still a great song though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 07, 2016, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 12:00:56 PM
Alright here's a controversial one: the drum part to Metropolis part 1 has some of the most tasteless and annoying drum fills I've heard. I don't understand how people complain about mangini's "machine gun" fills and them praise the drum part of Metropolis. Still a great song though.

Probably because the drums (well, kick and snare) were 100% triggered with no dynamic variation unlike MM, who is consistent but still has some variation and ghost notes especially in TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 07, 2016, 01:26:49 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 12:00:56 PM
Alright here's a controversial one: the drum part to Metropolis part 1 has some of the most tasteless and annoying drum fills I've heard. I don't understand how people complain about mangini's "machine gun" fills and them praise the drum part of Metropolis. Still a great song though.

The drum part to Metropolis, Pt. 1 is probably my favorite drum part on any song ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 07, 2016, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 12:00:56 PM
Alright here's a controversial one: the drum part to Metropolis part 1 has some of the most tasteless and annoying drum fills I've heard. I don't understand how people complain about mangini's "machine gun" fills and them praise the drum part of Metropolis. Still a great song though.
Yeah, plus the snare on IW was actually triggered. I'd take MM's snare sound over that any day even though I'm not in love with either tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 01:35:05 PM
I don't dislike the fills because they're triggered, or how they sound, it's the actual placement of the fill and what is played. And I think the drum part is wonderful, but bought down a ton by weird fill placement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 01:47:44 PM
I found MP tended to put big fills in where they weren't necessary.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 07, 2016, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 01:47:44 PM
I found MP tended to put big fills in where they weren't necessary.
Yep, one of my biggest complaints about his playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 01:47:44 PM
I found MP tended to put big fills in where they weren't necessary.

Exactly. I think MP1 is one of the biggest offenders.

Death *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* is the *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* first *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* dance eternal *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 03:07:00 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 01:47:44 PM
I found MP tended to put big fills in where they weren't necessary.

Exactly. I think MP1 is one of the biggest offenders.

Death *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* is the *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* first *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* dance eternal *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA*

Dang I always really liked that one. What's your opinion on the very similar slowed down alternative in Home? (don't have a timestamp but I'm assuming you know the one)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on February 07, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
i dunno i loved MP's random fills myself  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 03:23:35 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on February 07, 2016, 03:07:00 PM
Quote from: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 01:47:44 PM
I found MP tended to put big fills in where they weren't necessary.

Exactly. I think MP1 is one of the biggest offenders.

Death *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* is the *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* first *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA* dance eternal *DUGUDUGA DUCKADUCKA*

Dang I always really liked that one. What's your opinion on the very similar slowed down alternative in Home? (don't have a timestamp but I'm assuming you know the one)

Timestamp is 3:18. I have no problem with it there. It actually works very well there because he's not playing such an upfront fill over James. It's just when that fill is played underneath the vocal melody I find it very annoying. So annoying, I'd say it's probably the most out of place fill in any DT album except for WDaDU.

Quote from: Parama on February 07, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
i dunno i loved MP's random fills myself  :lol
I do sometimes. Sometimes they end up being really cool, but it's hit or miss.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 07, 2016, 06:17:33 PM
Quote from: Parama on February 07, 2016, 03:11:41 PM
i dunno i loved MP's random fills myself  :lol

Yeah. I've written this here before, but drumming is not something that I really notice or pay attention to unless it is something I really like or dislike. Mike is the only drummer who grabs and holds my attention in a positive way for extended periods of time, and it has to partially be because of stuff like this. He's definitely my favorite drummer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 07, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Yeah, almost everything MP did in DT (at least with regard to drumming) I find to be pretty fantastic. Dream Theater (with Portnoy) is pretty much the only band where I consistently noticed/appreciated the drumming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 07:10:44 PM
I love MP too. Mp1 is the only dt song off the top of my head that stands out as kind of annoying drum/fill wise.

I think it's funny that people say they don't pay attention to drum parts, that's a huge majority of what I listen to in a song. Probably because I'm a drummer though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on February 07, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Yeah, almost everything MP did in DT (at least with regard to drumming) I find to be pretty fantastic.

Likewise. I couldn't fault a single bit of drumming in Metropolis, or IaW.
I've had a lot more issues with MM's choice of drumming than MP's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 07, 2016, 08:36:51 PM
I couldn't tell you a single drum part of the last three albums. Whereas I could reel off several for each MP era album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ASacrificedSon on February 07, 2016, 08:41:37 PM
Wow, nice thread.

Just one thing I want to yell out to the world: Dream Theater is awesome!!!!!!

In all seriousness, I think A Nightmare to Remember is the most emotionally worded song by Petrucci. In terms of musically best, I'd say it would be In the Name of God.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: ASacrificedSon on February 07, 2016, 08:41:37 PM
Just one thing I want to yell out to the world: Dream Theater is awesome!!!!!!

Whoa man, I know this is the controversial opinion thread, but within reason! :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ASacrificedSon on February 07, 2016, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:43:12 PM
Quote from: ASacrificedSon on February 07, 2016, 08:41:37 PM
Just one thing I want to yell out to the world: Dream Theater is awesome!!!!!!

Whoa man, I know this is the controversial opinion thread, but within reason! :neverusethis:

 :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 07, 2016, 09:41:25 PM
I just don't understand how The Astonishing is mostly Ballads?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pantsofeternity on February 07, 2016, 09:50:21 PM
Dance of Eternity is like... it's fine I guess.  But I see it held up (even by the band) as like, a quintessential Dream Theater song.  Honestly it's the only track on SFAM I regularly skip.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on February 07, 2016, 09:51:44 PM
Quote from: pantsofeternity on February 07, 2016, 09:50:21 PM
Dance of Eternity is like... it's fine I guess.  But I see it held up (even by the band) as like, a quintessential Dream Theater song.  Honestly it's the only track on SFAM I regularly skip.

Yeah, & double negatives are overrated. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 07, 2016, 08:36:51 PM
I couldn't tell you a single drum part of the last three albums. Whereas I could reel off several for each MP era album.

To each their own, but I can drumspeak the drum parts to most MM Era songs.
Ex: OTBoA, BITS, Outcry, BAI, TEI, TLG (Dat cymbal work), EM, TBP (ride cymbal around 3:30 is actual sex), BTV, IT, and plenty of stuff on the astonishing. I'll post those and if anyone wants me to I'll provide timestamps to the parts I love  in those songs. I just dig MM's style I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on February 07, 2016, 10:31:46 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 07, 2016, 08:25:34 AM
8 = octave VM ? Varium ?

But it's Octav-arium not Octave Varium.

8AM would be more appropriate. or OVM.

Or just write out Octavarium - because it takes like 1 second. Octavarium.

8 = oct (like octagon)
V = varium.

You're overthinking this, Kotowboy. :lol But I guess that's the prog thing to do! :P

Octavarium isn't a fun word to type out either. 8V is several times quicker, which is good when you're a lazy shit like me.


Octavarium Octavarium Octavarium.

I typed out three Octavarium and I didn't vary 'em :biggrin:

Octavaryum

Octaveryum

Octevereum...

It could go on and on...you just need to apply yourself...

Try harder next time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on February 07, 2016, 10:39:24 PM
OCTAVARIUM
OCTAVARIEM
OCTAVYRIEM
OCTAVYSIEM
OCTOVYSIEM
COTOVYSIEM
CHTOVYSIEM
CHTOVYSTEM
CHAOVYSTEM
CHAOSSYSTEM :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 07, 2016, 10:44:58 PM
WDADU is definitely not their worst album.  SC is definitely worse, and BC&SL is probably worse.  And it would be above 6DOIT and 8VM if it weren't for the title tracks of each.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 07, 2016, 10:52:55 PM
WDADU is most definitely their worst album by a huge margin. DT is too experienced to make an album worse even if they tried.

SC is very underrated, and it's unfair that it even gets mentioned in the same thought as WDADU, a glorified demo that didn't deserve to be released by a real record label.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir Walrus Cauliflower on February 07, 2016, 11:18:29 PM
Yeah, WDaDU is by far their worst album. It's the only album that I honestly don't even enjoy at all. I only listened a couple times because I felt obligated to know the material. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on February 07, 2016, 11:32:05 PM
Quote from: jsbru on February 07, 2016, 10:44:58 PM
WDADU is definitely not their worst album.  SC is definitely worse, and BC&SL is probably worse.  And it would be above 6DOIT and 8VM if it weren't for the title tracks of each.

I agree
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 12:33:45 AM
I only like one song on BC&SL: TCOT.  I like none on SC.  I think I've only listened to SC like three times; whereas I've listened to Awake and I&W hundreds.  I might force myself to listen to SC one more time sometime in the near future to give it one last chance for anything to grab me, but I'm too busy right now listening to the fantastic music on TA.  I just don't like it when DT does a Pantera impression overlayed with gothic-sounding synthesizers.  I like Pantera in their own right, but it's not DT's bag.

Some parts of WDADU are lame, but Only A Matter of Time is at least in my DT Top 20, and I'm very fond of Afterlife, Fortune in Lies, and Ones Who Help to Set the Sun.  And Ytse Jam is a fantastic instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 12:49:34 AM
SC is the most mediocre DT album.

My controversial opinion today is that The Glass Prison is my least favourite track on 6DoIT. I still like it though.  Musically I prefer The Great Debate, even if its lyrics are goofy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 08, 2016, 12:50:35 AM
Quote from: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 12:33:45 AM
I only like one song on BC&SL: TCOT.  I like none on SC.  I think I've only listened to SC like three times; whereas I've listened to Awake and I&W hundreds.  I might force myself to listen to SC one more time sometime in the near future to give it one last chance for anything to grab me, but I'm too busy right now listening to the fantastic music on TA.  I just don't like it when DT does a Pantera impression overlayed with gothic-sounding synthesizers.  I like Pantera in their own right, but it's not DT's bag.

Some parts of WDADU are lame, but Only A Matter of Time is at least in my DT Top 20, and I'm very fond of Afterlife, Fortune in Lies, and Ones Who Help to Set the Sun.  And Ytse Jam is a fantastic instrumental.

I don't see how SC is a Pantera impression when that album features songs like In the Presence of Enemies, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Repentance. Perhaps you could say that of Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and The Slaughtered of the Damned section of ITPOE, but the rest of the album is not how you described it at all.

But I agree with you that Only A Matter of Time is stellar. I also think The Killing Hand and A Fortune in Lies are top 50 worthy. And I think that WDADU is probably a stronger album on the whole than one DT album that has been released since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on February 08, 2016, 01:36:34 AM
I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.

I also never understood the love for Only A Matter of Time, some songs on the album I actually really enjoy, but Status Seeker and OAMOT are deadlast for me, it's not even close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 08, 2016, 01:40:26 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on February 08, 2016, 01:36:34 AM
I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.


Ditto. Not even the song that was admittedly directly inspired by seeing Pantera reminds me of Pantera at all, and I was a big Pantera fan long before I ever heard DT.
The Metallica influence is much more obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on February 08, 2016, 01:41:40 AM
Status Seeker is awesome ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on February 08, 2016, 09:01:00 AM
I'll second that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on February 08, 2016, 09:02:25 AM
Third that
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kaos2900 on February 08, 2016, 09:42:45 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

I agree with all of those except for #1. I LOVE disc 2 of SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on February 08, 2016, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: kaos2900 on February 08, 2016, 09:42:45 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

I agree with all of those except for #1. I LOVE disc 2 of SDOIT.

I only agree with #1. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
The Astonishing is my fourth favourite DT album behind Awake, I + W and SFAM. On here the album is pretty popular, but the reaction everywhere else  has been so divisive that I'd consider this a controversial opinion.

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on February 08, 2016, 10:23:11 AM
Most of the negative mindless feedback I've read on the internet of The Astonishing goes along these lines:

NOT ENOUGH METAL.....WORST ALBUM BY DT.....TOO SOFT...MP DURM GOD INDONESIA SOON...
DISAPPOINTED BY THE LACK OF BALLS...MP PLS COME BACK
etc.

As with everything, there have been some pretty interesting intelligent insights of people that haven't liked the album, but those are never the majority. I think DT knew beforehand that this release would be polarizing to some extent, but as noxon stated in the main Astonishing thread: lots of classic DT albums that are loved by the majority received their fair amount of hate back in the day. That's what you get when you do something bold and risky.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 08, 2016, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.
Title: Your Astonishing Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on February 08, 2016, 10:46:24 AM
I propose a new thread title, but I don't have any interesting opinions to give otherwise.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 08, 2016, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on February 08, 2016, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.

If I remember right, JP liked the reception TGP got when they played it live to support SDOIT. So he brought the idea to the band to do basically a whole album of heavy stuff like that-so ToT was born.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 08, 2016, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.
I completely agree with all of the above, except I don't miss MP's drumming at all. But other than that, absolutely! TA is currently in first place for me too and I don't see it moving.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Hal Incandenza on February 08, 2016, 11:20:57 AM
Quote from: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.

I said once long ago that it has some of the highest highs and lowest lows of any of DT's albums. I stand by that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:21:22 AM
Yeah, the heavy direction gets blamed a lot on MP, but I think JP was completely fine with it as well.  After all, the heavier the song, generally speaking the more guitar-dominated it is.

Even though I'm a guitar player myself, I like music that's more balanced and even sometimes tilted to the keyboard-driven side.  That's one of the reasons I love I&W and Awake so much--they're some of the most balanced albums they put out both from a style perspective and from an instrument perspective.  There's plenty of moments on each record where each musician shines through, including JM, who seems to have been relegated to the background in all recent albums other than DT12.

I don't mind DT's heavy side.  Two of my top 5 albums for them are Awake and ToT.  I think it depends more on what kind of heavy.  I just think the heavy songs on both of these albums are a little bit more focused and riff-based.  I don't like the darker, more gothic sound of SC and BC&SL, and I also think the songs on these albums meander around too much and have too much "wankery."  There's way too many instrumental sections that go into the same chromatic/diminished poly-rhythmic jams that are cool once in a while, but tend to get over-used by DT.  I think that's why I find TA to be somewhat refreshing, actually.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 11:31:01 AM
Awake is my favourite DT album, and I don't really consider it that heavy. It's more atmospheric (something no other DT album consistently achieves), and the songs have a real discipline to them. Later 'heavy' DT songs tend to outstay their welcome with me very early and then I am left listening to meaningless shredding that says nothing to me.

Obviously there are exceptions, but personally let's just say I'm in the camp who thinks Disappear is the best song on 6DoIT's first disc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 11:35:43 AM
Quote from: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 09:32:13 AM
2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.

I think FII is pretty listenable. There are some weaker teacks, but none I'm inclined to skip except maybe AL. I have to admit, somewhat guiltily, that I dig BMS. I know it's pretty low hanging fruit for a band like DT, but I appreciate the dark brooding tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 11:31:01 AM
Awake is my favourite DT album, and I don't really consider it that heavy. It's more atmospheric (something no other DT album consistently achieves), and the songs have a real discipline to them. Later 'heavy' DT songs tend to outstay their welcome with me very early and then I am left listening to meaningless shredding that says nothing to me.

Obviously there are exceptions, but personally let's just say I'm in the camp who thinks Disappear is the best song on 6DoIT's first disc.

Agree with the "atmospheric" aspect of Awake.  I&W comes close, but no other album of theirs is in the neighborhood of Awake with the atmosphere.  It just has this kind of mystique that's a touch somber but also mysterious, like you're exploring a new world that nobody's been to yet.  I want to credit Kevin Moore for this, but it was probably a process the whole band contributed to.

TA approaches the emotionality and compositional dynamics you find on Awake, but it doesn't quite capture the mystique.  That's why I think it will ultimately end up settling in behind Awake, but still somewhere in my top 3 or 4.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on February 08, 2016, 12:03:19 PM
Quote from: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 11:21:22 AM
I don't mind DT's heavy side.  Two of my top 5 albums for them are Awake and ToT.  I think it depends more on what kind of heavy.  I just think the heavy songs on both of these albums are a little bit more focused and riff-based.  I don't like the darker, more gothic sound of SC and BC&SL, and I also think the songs on these albums meander around too much and have too much "wankery."  There's way too many instrumental sections that go into the same chromatic/diminished poly-rhythmic jams that are cool once in a while, but tend to get over-used by DT. 

Same here, basically. I love Awake, and The Mirror is one of my favorite songs - EVER. But I can really do without the final section of This Dying Soul for example, that kind of heaviness I don't find it even in the other heavy bands I like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on February 08, 2016, 12:06:04 PM
the thing about awake is how goddamn much every instrument adds to a song instead of them clashing or one of them outshining the others as tends to happen with a good bit of DT's stuff
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 12:15:57 PM
Quote from: Parama on February 08, 2016, 12:06:04 PM
the thing about awake is how goddamn much every instrument adds to a song instead of them clashing or one of them outshining the others as tends to happen with a good bit of DT's stuff

Yeah, the same could be said for I&W mostly.  The songs are very well-written, and I think the compositional dynamics within each song contribute to this.  Songs like IF, Voices, and Scarred have some pretty heavy sections, but also have some really moody, light, atmospheric sections.  And even Lie has that long, mysterious outro solo section.  And The Mirror has some very spacious, calmer sections, too.  These softer sections give the keyboards and bass room to add atmosphere.  And SDV and 6:00 are pretty keyboard driven, and LSOAD and Scarred start out with bass-driven sections.  And Silent Man is probably their best "ballad" ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on February 08, 2016, 12:22:42 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on February 08, 2016, 01:36:34 AM
I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.

I probably painted with a broad brush when I made that statement.  The first and second time I listened to the album, Forsaken reminded me specifically of Megadeth, Constant Motion reminded specifically me of Metallica, and The Dark Eternal Night reminded me specifically of Pantera--the same way The Looking Glass reminded me instantly of Rush.

It's not that I dislike those metal bands...it's just that I don't feel like it's a sound DT should be pursuing.  Those bands don't use keyboards, and James' voice isn't optimized in that register.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on February 08, 2016, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on February 08, 2016, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on February 08, 2016, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: pretorios on February 08, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: James Sucellus on February 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM
Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.

If I remember right, JP liked the reception TGP got when they played it live to support SDOIT. So he never played it again.

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 08, 2016, 08:52:43 PM
Hasn't DT been metal since.. Always? I know The Glass Prison was a song that had a lot of prominent fast and hard riffing, but I'd argue that it was still nothing entirely new for them, just the first time they'd put it all into one song. They've had the hard fast riffing since the first album, A Fortune in Lies anyone?
What about The Mirror? That song is more on the slower atmospheric heavy side but is still as heavy as they come if you ask me, that thing is just a string of badass riffery one after the other. (Similarly to how I see the structure of The Glass Prison).

I guess I don't know if this is controversial then, I don't exactly identify as a Metalhead or whatever but I got into the band through the newer stuff (BC&SL and backwards from there). By the time I got to Train of Thought / Six Degrees, I had a fairly solid impression of what I liked about DT. When I got back to FII things started to get inconsistent, and Awake / Images & Words were tough to get into, BUT what kept me coming back with songs like, NM, BMS, JLMB, LITS, TM, UAGM, TTT, PMU, L2L, CAIW, 6:00, Voices, pretty much, as long as it had some heavy riffing in it I didn't get too alienated. It took a bit longer for songs like Surrounded, The Silent Man, Wait for Sleep, Innocence Faded etc. to grow on me (and I doubt I'll ever like Space Dye Vest, possibly the one DT song I can't trick myself into liking). I've played keyboard (piano) all my life (or since the age of 7) and have even been fortunate enough to be able to start making a living off it in the last few years, but for some reason I lean towards guitar oriented songs with my favourite bands.

So what I'm saying minus the typical ramblings; I'm drawn to DT because of the metal elements, it's always been my favourite part of the band. Give me The Dark Eternal Night the second coming or Honor Thy Grandfather one day and I'll be a happy fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 08, 2016, 09:15:18 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 08, 2016, 08:52:43 PM
Hasn't DT been metal since.. Always? I know The Glass Prison was a song that had a lot of prominent fast and hard riffing, but I'd argue that it was still nothing entirely new for them, just the first time they'd put it all into one song. They've had the hard fast riffing since the first album, A Fortune in Lies anyone?
What about The Mirror? That song is more on the slower atmospheric heavy side but is still as heavy as they come if you ask me, that thing is just a string of badass riffery one after the other. (Similarly to how I see the structure of The Glass Prison).

Many prog fans like to draw an arbitrary line of what is "metal" or not, because they consider it a dirty word and like to use it to separate the DT they like from the DT they don't like.
But yes, they've always been metal, hence the sub-genre they helped create. Sometimes they're more metal, sometimes less, and they've covered many different styles of metal, but they've always had that inclination there, and they've evolved with the times and stayed current.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 09, 2016, 02:06:59 AM
Yeah, when I see people flat out disapprove of the metal elements I sometimes think to myself, "do you even dream theater?".  :justjen
Just because it feels like it's always been fundamental, but I understand they can be more or less inclined depending on the song. Of course, it's not the only element and they can be represented by other styles and labels. Metal is a pretty broad term anyway so to dismiss those elements you might as well be dismissing drop tuning, palm muting, 7 strings, or basically every guitar tone that has scooped mid range. :P

Then again, there's the other side of it which I haven't seen with DT fans (but still equally bothers me XD). I've seen this as criticism against DT (and other music) from people who found they like one or two of the heavier songs then expect them to always be heavy. Pretty much, I've met some people that seem to be able to break all music in the world into two categories: Either it's "metal" or it's "gay". So I dunno, it's complicated because people have preferences in styles which is why we identify with certain bands and the 'styles' they either adhere to or lean towards. For DT, that style is a bit more ambiguous as they seem to have varying appeal among fans so we're not really sure what we want.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scorpion on February 09, 2016, 02:09:42 AM
I don't think that people categorising music into the categories "heavy" or "gay" are worth talking about music with, period.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 09, 2016, 02:13:14 AM
Lol well I've learnt you won't get far with expanding their musical horizons, but they're certainly passionate about what they do enjoy. Even if they're making sweeping generilisations about everything else.  :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 02:21:40 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 09, 2016, 02:06:59 AM
Either it's "metal" or it's "gay".

Well that's just stupid.


A lot of the '80s music I listen to proves that you can have both! :metal Take THAT, genre classification!

I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is. Yes, being less of a prog fan, there are some notable instances where I like some proggier songs a lot less than the majority (ACOS, LTL etc), but it's not just blanket because it's prog. There are also just as many proggy songs I love as much as the majority. Same with any other side of the band.
I'll appreciate any song I think is well written, I don't have any pretension that a certain style is beneath DT or that they shouldn't/can't do a certain sound. I love ToT for its intentionally one dimensional smack in the face of metal, just as I love FII for its laid back pop sensibilities. I liked that they explored the boundaries of the metal side with SC/BCASL, just as I like them exploring the prog side with SFAM/TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 09, 2016, 07:00:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 02:21:40 AM
I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is.

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd make this my signature. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for me, I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that DT "should be" making music "I" like.  They make it - metal, rap, prog, disco, whatever - and I get to choose whether I listen to it or not.   None of it is "better" or "worse" or "gay" or "whatever the opposite of gay is", it's just THEIR music. 

Plenty of bands have veered away from what I liked about them (Scorpions) and vice versa, many bands have veered INTO what I like about them (The Dead).   I get that we might like one certain aspect better than others but that's "a controversial opinion about US", not a "controversial opinion about Dream Theater". 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 09, 2016, 07:48:37 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 02:21:40 AM


I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is.

Agreed, 100%. That's also how it should be for all music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 10:37:24 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on February 09, 2016, 02:06:59 AM
Of course, it's not the only element and they can be represented by other styles and labels. Metal is a pretty broad term anyway so to dismiss those elements you might as well be dismissing drop tuning, palm muting, 7 strings, or basically every guitar tone that has scooped mid range. :P

And that brings up another thing. I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays even though it's usually classified as "prog metal". Similarly I generally don't like metal at all but love most of DT's music. A lot of the heavier songs are ones I skip, but I think Awake is great and there are other heavy songs scattered throughout their discography that I enjoy a lot. So how would you even define "metal?" Since DT is classified as metal and they have more light to medium songs than heavy ones, and metal is generally considered to be "heavy" (or so it seems), is that really the best categorization for them?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EraVulgaris on February 09, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 10:37:24 AM
I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 08:45:25 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on February 09, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 10:37:24 AM
I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

She sounds incredibly ignorant. I wouldn't marry her if I were you. I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Most people I know, know what metal actually is. But they don't live under a (prog) rock. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 08:53:21 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on February 09, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".
Exactly, and for a long time I had the same idea. Prog metal (or rock for that matter) isn't exactly something that is widely known, but just "metal" is such a generic term that many people are going to associate it with only one or 2 specific aspects of metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on February 09, 2016, 09:04:11 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on February 09, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 10:37:24 AM
I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

People have had that same ignorant generalization about metal for years. When I was going through grade school and high school, my classmates would always ask me, "Do you still listen to kill your mother, kill your father?" Eventually, my response was, "knowing that I listen to psychotic allegedly psychotic music, why would you tease me about it?"  Never again did someone ask me about the music I listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 10, 2016, 07:35:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 08:45:25 PM
I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Let's not get crazy and over-react, now, Blob. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 07:42:23 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 10, 2016, 07:35:52 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 09, 2016, 08:45:25 PM
I wouldn't even stick it in her pooper.

Let's not get crazy and over-react, now, Blob. 

It is the controversial opinion thread, after all. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 10, 2016, 07:44:24 AM
Quote
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT

The Astonishing is 3 discs.

And the discs are spherical.


:hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2016, 07:45:50 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on February 09, 2016, 09:04:11 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on February 09, 2016, 11:26:37 AM
Quote from: pcs90 on February 09, 2016, 10:37:24 AM
I have a feeling if you mention metal to someone they probably won't think of the music Dream Theater plays [...]

That's actually quite true. A few weeks ago I talked to someone about what music we are into and when I mentioned that I like prog and metal, she said "Metal, huh? I don't like all that growling and screaming" and my response was "Neither do I". Most people probably think of 220 bpm songs with no lyrics but growling when you say "metal".

People have had that same ignorant generalization about metal for years. When I was going through grade school and high school, my classmates would always ask me, "Do you still listen to kill your mother, kill your father?" Eventually, my response was, "knowing that I listen to psychotic allegedly psychotic music, why would you tease me about it?"  Never again did someone ask me about the music I listen to.

Almost every girl I meet when I tell her I like metal, I get the death stare and the follow up "I don't like screaming music" for which I have the same response as Era. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:13:08 AM
I just read MM's latest Facebook post, and I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future. He spent all that effort designing they simple military beat at the end of the title track, making it a 13:2 roll with a 7 tuplet in parallel (or something), but his drum sound is totally neglected (IMHO).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 10, 2016, 09:15:29 AM
Whenever I read or hear him say things like that - i'm like ::) yeah but does it fit the song or are you just being über technical for the sake of it ?


He seems to love playing in 19 for some reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 10, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
:lol also - Mike seems to spend longer explaining what he means or what he's doing than just posting what he did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2016, 09:22:10 AM
Opinions on his style and sound are valid, but did we forget he was a professor at Berkley?  This is the stuff he loves.  It's not crazy to think of him writing out the technical parts of playing the drums is something he enjoys and is proud of.

I read his post too, way above my head since I am not a musician, but I like seeing how he writes out the details.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 09:26:04 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:13:08 AM
I just read MM's latest Facebook post, and I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future. He spent all that effort designing they simple military beat at the end of the title track, making it a 13:2 roll with a 7 tuplet in parallel (or something), but his drum sound is totally neglected (IMHO).

Yeah....... I'm with you 100%.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 10, 2016, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on February 10, 2016, 09:22:10 AM
Opinions on his style and sound are valid, but did we forget he was a professor at Berkley?  This is the stuff he loves.  It's not crazy to think of him writing out the technical parts of playing the drums is something he enjoys and is proud of.

I read his post too, way above my head since I am not a musician, but I like seeing how he writes out the details.

This, there's nothing wrong with his approach. Also, I get the feeling that he just sort of plays things like that then breaks it down afterwards.

Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:13:08 AM
I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.

Ok. I don't agree at all, his drumming has been very enjoyable for me to listen to. I actually think his drumming just as memorable as MP's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 09:43:06 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.

I agree again. He's no doubt one of the most technically proficient drummers in the world, much more so than MP, but in terms of which drummer I find more enjoyable and memorable, there's not even a comparison to be made for me. I think he's fitting a whole lot better on TA than he has in the past, but it's only a start.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 10, 2016, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me.

Indeed it is personal opinion. MP and MM just have different styles and achieve the same things with different means. When you say "I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.", it seems to be discounting those who like MM's style and analytical nature. I also don't get what's wrong in him taking a deeper look into what he's doing and it doesn't seem like you considered that MM naturally drums stuff like what you mentioned and just likes to analyse it afterwards to see why it works (like him preferring odd tuplets over even ones).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 09:53:41 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on February 10, 2016, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me.

Indeed it is personal opinion. MP and MM just have different styles and achieve the same things with different means. When you say "I must say I don't think there's much hope in getting much enjoyable drumming from him in the future.", it seems to be discounting those who like MM's style and analytical nature.

I don't see how you could take rumby's comment that way, it's clearly a personal opinion, and infers nothing about anyone else's opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:56:02 AM
Well, the hilarious part of that whole thing is, the whole "problem" he is trying to avoid with this over-complicated scheme of odd tuplets and whatnot, is because he playing his rolls in such a mechanical manner that it sticks out. The point of a drum roll is to be an indiscernible blur of small hits. MM practiced himself to be so precise that you start noticing how unnaturally regular they are; so he finds himself having to counteract it by making it so complicated that one can't follow it again. It's like, training yourself to be like a computer, and then putting additional effort to *not* make you sound like one.

EDIT: This is actually exactly the problem MIDI sequencers have, and why they often have a "humanize" button you can click that introduces human variation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 09:58:06 AM
Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.
Then again maybe it was better having someone like MP in the band who's so different than JP and JR.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on February 10, 2016, 10:06:25 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 09:58:06 AM
Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.
Then again maybe it was better having someone like MP in the band who's so different than JP and JR.

Well I think MM fits in better as your typical drummer, where as MP was not only the drummer, but also the leader of the band.  I had no problems with MP on stage antics.  He liked to work the crowd, nothing wrong with that if you ask me.  He didn't really do any of that when I saw Winery Dogs last fall, probably because he is not the leader of the band.  He probably doesn't feel he needs to be involved in that capacity.  That's just my guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on February 10, 2016, 10:10:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 09:53:41 AM
I don't see how you could take rumby's comment that way, it's clearly a personal opinion, and infers nothing about anyone else's opinion.

Actually yeah, I probably shouldn't have criticised that part of his comment like that. I guess I'd just like for MM to have more appreciation but obviously I'm not going to be changing anyone's mind.

Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:56:02 AM
Well, the hilarious part of that whole thing is, the whole "problem" he is trying to avoid with this over-complicated scheme of odd tuplets and whatnot, is because he playing his rolls in such a mechanical manner that it sticks out. The point of a drum roll is to be an indiscernible blur of small hits. MM practiced himself to be so precise that you start noticing how unnaturally regular they are; so he finds himself having to counteract it by making it so complicated that one can't follow it again. It's like, training yourself to be like a computer, and then putting additional effort to *not* make you sound like one.

EDIT: This is actually exactly the problem MIDI sequencers have, and why they often have a "humanize" button you can click that introduces human variation.

I must have a different album from you, then. MM doesn't seem that mechanical to me, he supports the music just fine and does a lot of cool stuff (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=45947.0). I really doubt that MM finds himself in the position you are describing. There's no problem and I don't see what's hilarious.

Quote from: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 09:58:06 AM
Not sure if it's relevant but I enjoy MM's stage persona much better than MP's, I'm not being snobbish but the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.
MM Manginis all over and reacts to the music, gets caught up in the moment and pumped, smiles in ecstasy at the audience and other band members, so he's not stiff or the exact opposite of MP but he fits in more with the likes of JP and JR.

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on February 10, 2016, 10:20:49 AM
The only time I've ever seen MM live was in 1995 with Extreme, so I can't say much about his onstage persona now, but it sounds like he's fairly serious.  That's one thing I loved about seeing DT was MP's energy behind the drum kit.  He is an entertainer and I think it was a good balance to the concentration and seriousness of everyone else on stage.  When I saw him with TWD at the M3 Festival, same way.  He was seriously into it and was extremely entertaining to watch, his drum abilities aside.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 10:32:25 AM
Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on February 10, 2016, 10:20:49 AM
The only time I've ever seen MM live was in 1995 with Extreme, so I can't say much about his onstage persona now, but it sounds like he's fairly serious.

Oh dude he's so not serious :lol, if I weren't at work I'd have loved to find you some youtube videos, I saw them 3 times on the ADToE tour and one of the shows I had really good seats close to the front and MM simply grabbed my attention most with his clowning, beside his amazing performance of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on February 10, 2016, 10:36:10 AM
Ah, okay, cool.  I think I took that from this:

Quote from: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 09:58:06 AM
the way MP behaved on stage was far below the integrity of what Dream Theater presents, I would take MP in Metallica and simple love his antiques and fondness for yelling, spiting and demands regarding his ass and balls, but DT transcends that kinda thing IMO.

To be fair to you, you DID say that MM isn't stiff or exactly the opposite of MP, but I guess this made it sound like he was a lot more "serious" (for lack of a better word), than he probably is.  As noted, I have no frame of reference.  I saw him 21 years ago with Extreme in a little dive in Norfolk, VA.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on February 10, 2016, 10:39:13 AM
That's cool man, DT was the first I ever heard of him but now I'm interested to see some of his old stuff that you're talking about :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 10:42:24 AM
I saw him with Tribe of Judah, and he was a riot even back then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 10, 2016, 10:47:12 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 10, 2016, 09:43:06 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 09:33:54 AM
All personal opinion of course ... but not by a long shot. Not even in the same league for me. While MM is one of the most technically proficient drummers I have ever seen, he does not occupy the "upper row" of drummers for me.

I agree again. He's no doubt one of the most technically proficient drummers in the world, much more so than MP, but in terms of which drummer I find more enjoyable and memorable, there's not even a comparison to be made for me. I think he's fitting a whole lot better on TA than he has in the past, but it's only a start.

I agree with this. The thing with MP and MM to me is that while MP was an excellent drummer, there was a certain "playalongability" to his parts. With MM, it's so complex, air drumming is almost impossible. But I noticed on TA that I am tapping along quite a bit, and I'm really enjoying it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on February 10, 2016, 10:49:36 AM
An MM solo from 1995 with Extreme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co1NGVvpYcw

Ridiculously impressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 10, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
I do agree with Rumbo that there a hard pounding swing to MP that is missing from the band. MM is so proficient that it looks easier.  He's also hit's with less impact.   MP added that hard hitting, grooving background to the music.  This coming from a guy that wanted MM.   It's not the end of the world mind you.

It does remind me of so many conversation I've read over the years about Neil Peart's playing.  "Too Mechanical" was always the storyline.

Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on February 10, 2016, 11:14:00 AM
This reminds me why I wanted Virgil Donati to take MP's spot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on February 10, 2016, 11:20:10 AM
It's like 2010 all over again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 10, 2016, 05:40:51 PM
Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on February 10, 2016, 06:00:21 PM
Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ASacrificedSon on February 10, 2016, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 10, 2016, 05:40:51 PM
Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro

Yes. That synth annoys me like heck.

Quote from: WheyWaffles on February 10, 2016, 06:00:21 PM
Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.

That would be pretty tedious, but if they could do that, major respect.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 10, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.

A very interesting point, and I agree. I think many of those things he does, I.e.constraining himself to the metal-type, double bass etc drumming seems to come from his perception what he should be playing in DT. He clearly is able of much more subtlety and dynamics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 11, 2016, 06:41:29 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2016, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 10, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
Also what Coz posted with Extreme, I saw him on that tour and was blown away.  He had more swing then.  I think he's playing with less swing because he feels it doesn't fit with DT's music.

A very interesting point, and I agree. I think many of those things he does, I.e.constraining himself to the metal-type, double bass etc drumming seems to come from his perception what he should be playing in DT. He clearly is able of much more subtlety and dynamics.

I'm not sure I 100% feel this way about Mangini (I have other criticisms ;) ), but as a general proposition, I feel this is a (bad) trend in today's music.   If you look back, the best music was that music that pushed the boundaries of expectation a little bit.   Not just "prog", but generally.   Bill Ward playing, basically, jazz drums under Iommi's heavy blues, with Geezer's Beatle-esque bass lines.  Ritchie Blackmore playing Bach while Ian Gillan sang Little Richard.   Zeppelin.  Yes.  CRIMSON!   I think when musicians resist their inner instinct to go for "what is expected of this band" then problems arise.   I am a mad Mike Portnoy fanboy, but it's the one thing I worry about with all the things he has going on:  Amob/MA is the Metal stuff, TA is the prog stuff, TWD is the classic stuff, FC is the pop stuff...  but what about if he has this cool metal fill; why not try it in TA?   Why not throw that prog thing into TWD?  Certainly Billy and Richie can handle it.   Isn't that what Dream Theater was best at?  Freddie Mercury singing over James Hetfield playing in front of Neil Peart with Keith Emerson providing melodic harmony?

Limitations in music are, in my humble opinion, bad. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 11, 2016, 08:35:11 AM
I have a friend that was a touring drummer.  The man could do the Exit Stage Left YYZ solo to a tee but when it came to original music he held back always saying he played what fit the song.  I told him to put his stamp on the song by doing flourishes of himself.  He didn't have to overplay but to put a bit of his style into the song.

even the greats sometime feel the need to play "what fits for the song".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on February 11, 2016, 08:43:22 AM
Quote from: emtee on February 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

I think he has now.  The first album no.  The last 2 he has.  Nothing wrong.  I more worried about his drum sound the last 2 albums than his playing style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2016, 08:43:40 AM
Quote from: emtee on February 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.



The songs were all written before MM's involvement in the case of ADTOE and TA, but DT12 was supposed to be "MM unleashed", so I think that's a fair discussion at the very least. Even in the case of TA, I assume he was still given free rein to interpret the parts however he wanted, as apparently there were no drums on what he was given.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 11, 2016, 09:19:45 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2016, 08:43:40 AM
Quote from: emtee on February 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.



The songs were all written before MM's involvement in the case of ADTOE and TA, but DT12 was supposed to be "MM unleashed", so I think that's a fair discussion at the very least. Even in the case of TA, I assume he was still given free rein to interpret the parts however he wanted, as apparently there were no drums on what he was given.

I understand but won't make the assumption that he is totally free to do what he wants from a creative standpoint. When he publicly
states that he was allowed to do whatever he wanted on this album then I would have more to say but since JP is the producer
I assume he has final say and that he makes suggestions about what he wants, just as he does with JLB.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 11, 2016, 10:18:19 AM
3 albums in, I'm not sure what else one could wait for at this point. I think we've seen the extent of his creative contributions, for better or for worse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2016, 10:25:19 AM
At this point I think he has as much creative freedom as he wants to have, which is good enough for me. I don't see any good reason that discussing MM's work in DT isn't fair game.

Love the new avatar btw, rumby. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 11, 2016, 10:30:48 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 11, 2016, 08:35:11 AM
I have a friend that was a touring drummer.  The man could do the Exit Stage Left YYZ solo to a tee but when it came to original music he held back always saying he played what fit the song.  I told him to put his stamp on the song by doing flourishes of himself.  He didn't have to overplay but to put a bit of his style into the song.

even the greats sometime feel the need to play "what fits for the song".

I'm not saying anything that conflicts with that.   I think it's fair to say that what Bill and Geezer put into Sabbath "fit the song".  Listen to "After Forever" or "Children of the Sea" or "Walk Away", and Geezer is not playing what is expected of a "Metal bass player" (think: Ian Hill).  He's doing something in my view pretty unique and out of the box, yet it is a PERFECT fit within the song.  Likewise, we can point to 100 metal songs where the drummer is doing stock metal blast beats and it's as jarring as finger nails on a chalk board. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 11, 2016, 10:31:35 AM
You know, I was surprised nobody else had done that with their avatar! I'm sitting in a hotel room in Georgia, nursing a massive head cold I got from running around on a freezing army base all week, so I finally had the time to create the avatar :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on February 11, 2016, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2016, 10:25:19 AM
At this point I think he has as much creative freedom as he wants to have, which is good enough for me. I don't see any good reason that discussing MM's work in DT isn't fair game.

Love the new avatar btw, rumby. :lol

It's totally fair game IMO but the dynamic and conversation (as well as my thoughts) would change if I found out he did what he was asked
instead of what he wanted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 11, 2016, 10:36:05 AM
I don't see a reason to speculate about his creative input any more than the drummer in any other band. He's given plenty enough creative freedom for us to judge his playing with DT.
And it wouldn't change my opinion of his drumming in any way regardless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on February 11, 2016, 10:56:57 AM
I think BTFW is a great demonstration of how Mike plays, and how he interprets already written parts.
Sadly the studio albums suffer from a very artificial sound (except for ADTOE which has very low volume for the cymbals) and once again i feel that the sound doesn't do justice to all the intricacies and dynamics he applies to his playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 12, 2016, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: ASacrificedSon on February 10, 2016, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on February 10, 2016, 05:40:51 PM
Surrounded with original synth intro > Surrounded with piano Intro

Yes. That synth annoys me like heck.

That's actually my controversial opinion :lol I love the synth intro more and I think it really fits with the overall theme of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: terrell39 on March 08, 2016, 12:36:02 PM
This posting will show I am too picky but...When watching Dream Theater live, the guitarist John is on my right. Yet when listening to a studio recording, when a song has a break and only the guitar is playing, the guitar is in the left channel. Examples are early in Illumination Theory, the break in Rite of Passage, the middle of Erotomania, the first guitar you hear during the intro to Bridges in the Sky.

The reason I mention this is I do not agree with the choice to put John's guitar in the left channel, it should be in the right because from the audience's point of view, that is where he is. For this reason, I only listen to these songs with earbuds on so I can switch them so I hear the band from the same point of view as I see them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on March 08, 2016, 12:41:52 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on February 10, 2016, 06:00:21 PM
Fewer people contribute to the writing of each album.  Maybe next time JP should just write everything.

Or maybe JP, JM, JLB, and MM can write everything.

Either would be an improvement.

So you don't like ANY of the music that Jordan writes?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 08, 2016, 07:14:32 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on February 11, 2016, 08:43:22 AM
Quote from: emtee on February 11, 2016, 08:39:02 AM
A discussion about what MM does with DT can't really be had until it is known if he is given 100% creative license.

I think he has now.  The first album no.  The last 2 he has.  Nothing wrong.  I more worried about his drum sound the last 2 albums than his playing style.

So true. The bass drums sound like a drum machine. I would appreciate a more define, precise and clear sound from each parts of the drum kit. Portnoy did have a great sound from his skins.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on March 08, 2016, 08:01:28 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 08, 2016, 07:14:32 PM
So true. The bass drums sound like a drum machine. I would appreciate a more define, precise and clear sound from each parts of the drum kit. Portnoy did have a great sound from his skins.
This is interesting because I feel that Mangini's sound, while not my preferred drum sound at all, is very defined, precise and clear. The fact that the drums sound very mechanical should make it easier to hear each hit.
But really this is only on the studio recordings. If you listen to his kit acoustically it does not sound like this at all. It's a much more natural sound, like some of Portnoy's kits.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 08, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on March 08, 2016, 08:10:31 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 08, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.
Well, no dimension I can totally agree with.
It would help if he didn't tune his toms so low. They have a muted "slappy" sound to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 08, 2016, 08:23:00 PM
His ADTOE drum sound has been his best so far. Shame it wasn't that good of a mix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 06:25:54 AM
I like MM's sound on DT12 and TA. Sounds really powerful and clear to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Carlos_7x on March 09, 2016, 06:46:10 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 06:25:54 AM
I like MM's sound on DT12 and TA. Sounds really powerful and clear to me.

It's a different style from Portnoy's. But the thing that really annoys me is the Snare sound in the 3 MM albums: ADToE sounds so powerless, while the DT12 and TA sounds exactly the same as I&W. I think the songs would sound better if the snare has more power.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 09, 2016, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 08, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

To me his kick drum sounds like a typewriter. Unless you are listening with something that can deliver the very low end strongly, all that remains is the click sound, and that totally sounds like a typewriter. *Particularly* at the end of TGOM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 11:35:55 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 09, 2016, 11:17:58 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 08, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
His kick drum sounds like all his toms. No dimension, and no definition.

To me his kick drum sounds like a typewriter. Unless you are listening with something that can deliver the very low end strongly, all that remains is the click sound, and that totally sounds like a typewriter. *Particularly* at the end of TGOM.

You must have a weird typewriter then. The mid frequencies in MM's kick sound on TA are pushed up for clarity, but there is still enough low end to really drive the music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 09, 2016, 11:57:22 AM
What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 09, 2016, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: terrell39 on March 08, 2016, 12:36:02 PM
This posting will show I am too picky but...When watching Dream Theater live, the guitarist John is on my right. Yet when listening to a studio recording, when a song has a break and only the guitar is playing, the guitar is in the left channel. Examples are early in Illumination Theory, the break in Rite of Passage, the middle of Erotomania, the first guitar you hear during the intro to Bridges in the Sky.

The reason I mention this is I do not agree with the choice to put John's guitar in the left channel, it should be in the right because from the audience's point of view, that is where he is. For this reason, I only listen to these songs with earbuds on so I can switch them so I hear the band from the same point of view as I see them.
This may be the strangest thing I've seen posted in this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 12:44:29 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 09, 2016, 11:57:22 AM
What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.

It sounds just like a kick drum to me though. I guess I'm just more used to hearing the clearer kick with higher frequencies than a more natural kick with more of a boomy sound. I like the extra clarity on the TA kicks more than the almost feel-it-more-than-you-can-hear-it kick on 8vm. Nothing wrong with either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 09, 2016, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 09, 2016, 11:57:22 AM
What Rumbo and I are getting at that it doesn't sound organic.  It sounds like rapid fire gun shots or a typewriter like Rumbo said.

It sounds robotic when it's like that.  I think his drumming has been great, I just would hope to here a more organic sound and not like a sampled click sound.

I mean, for better or for worse, his whole kit sound is very consistent in that. The snare is very "Pang!" too. Apparently some people can discern dynamics, I am not in that fortunate group. Even when he tries to do softer rolls, I feel he's fighting the sound. For DT12 he even said as much, that it was hard to do ghost notes and stuff with the drum sound he had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 09, 2016, 01:37:25 PM
Exactly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. :dunno: I think a few MP drum sounds are worse, as well as the one on ADToE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 09, 2016, 09:50:59 PM
As I said in The Astonishing thread...

JAMES LABRIE ONLY HAD THREE LINES....


HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAHA
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 10, 2016, 02:43:12 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. :dunno:

Mangini did have problems with the snare sound in the DT album, but he also learned a new technique from that. That's when he started playing on his left and right cymbals a lot of what could have been ghost notes on the snare (and we can hear that in IT, TLG, and STR).

For the TA snare, I don't really hear a problem. It sounds like a snare to me, and I am one of those rumbo mentioned that can discern dynamics from the snare (like, the snare in Losing Faythe is definitely not played the same as Moment of Betrayal).

For the "typewriter" bass,  it does have that effect on TGOM. But the bass drum sound works in songs like ONW and TPTD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 10, 2016, 09:30:27 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 10, 2016, 02:43:12 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on March 09, 2016, 02:15:29 PM
Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. :dunno:

Mangini did have problems with the snare sound in the DT album, but he also learned a new technique from that. That's when he started playing on his left and right cymbals a lot of what could have been ghost notes on the snare (and we can hear that in IT, TLG, and STR).

For the TA snare, I don't really hear a problem. It sounds like a snare to me, and I am one of those rumbo mentioned that can discern dynamics from the snare (like, the snare in Losing Faythe is definitely not played the same as Moment of Betrayal).

For the "typewriter" bass,  it does have that effect on TGOM. But the bass drum sound works in songs like ONW and TPTD.

Yeah, pretty much. The snare on DT12 was worked around in a really creative and cool way and the snare and kick work well in context.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pcs90 on March 10, 2016, 11:21:58 PM
The really clear "typewriter" kick sound really works for the more detailed parts though, like when Mangini plays along with James' fast part in TPTD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 11, 2016, 06:48:05 PM
To add to the discussion on Mangini's drum sound, Mangini has gone on record before that this production in MullMuzzler 2 is what captures how he "hears" his drums in the studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGThjRtDuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKk_kxRXyA


Personally, my favorite drum production for Mangini is in Exit Elvis and Elements of Persuasion, although the soundscape of the songs there is different from his Dream Theater albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on March 11, 2016, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 11, 2016, 06:48:05 PM
To add to the discussion on Mangini's drum sound, Mangini has gone on record before that this production in MullMuzzler 2 is what captures how he "hears" his drums in the studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGThjRtDuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKk_kxRXyA


Personally, my favorite drum production for Mangini is in Exit Elvis and Elements of Persuasion, although the soundscape of the songs there is different from his Dream Theater albums.

Yea, I think at this point I just don't like his drum/heads or how he tunes them. The only time I've liked them was on EoP. I know most people generally say "they sound good but they suffer from bad production" on most other albums, but at this point I think they sound bad but had good production on EoP. Dude just needs different drums or a different set up. Then again, he (and people like you) seem to absolutely love his drum sound, so such is life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 11, 2016, 09:03:32 PM
Go listen to the drum fills during the chorus of The Road to Revolution on the CD.

Then listen to them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQA5hNAEZ8

Crazy how much better his drums sound live.  His drum sound in the studio doesn't really bother me like it does some, but it doesn't impress me either. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 11, 2016, 10:31:43 PM
Honestly, I can not imagine why Chycki doesn't just stick with the Elements of Persuasion sound of Mangini's drums. It captures the bass drums that he loves using a lot in his orchestration, you can hear the melodic playing of the toms and cymbals, and the snare has more dynamics. It does sound a bit processed but that is really just because the overall production of the album is amped up and compressed.

Examples:

Lost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNpUANOQKwc)

Some nifty cymbals orchestration in Drained (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkMRVPMgvlc)

Wel, the YT quality is bad, but the original recording of that is clear.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 12, 2016, 08:35:01 AM
I'm pretty sure Chycki just does what the artist (here, JP and MM) requests.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on March 13, 2016, 04:25:21 AM
I've pretty much run out of patience with DT at this point. They don't seem capable of satisfying the fundamentals that I think constitute great music anymore.

A great deal of that is down to personal taste of course but their insistence on no external producer and what I see as a lack of critical judgement on their own output leaves me frequently rolling my eyes and feeling frustrated rather than lost in music.

I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible. That goes on less than an hour. Drums that sounds like you're there next to them. The buzz of the amplifiers. No click track. Squeak of fingers on strings. Room ambience. Chatter between tracks. Vocals that aren't doubled/chorused all the time. Real piano. Lyrics that aren't a pointless, drawn out rehash of one of the most famous rock concept albums of all time.

They did real piano on TA i know. But generally feels all so sterilised and lacking to me. Some great moments on the last 5 or 6 albums but they've not hit it out of the park since 6D, IMO.

I've stopped expecting greatness as of now. They're just a band that used to be amazing, afaic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Onno on March 13, 2016, 03:01:59 PM
I agree with most of that, mostly regarding the production/sound of their last few albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2016, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 13, 2016, 04:25:21 AM
I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible.

I have long fantasized about them doing that as a music video. MM counts in, and they perform a whole song, as is. No doubled guitars, no doubled vocals, no samples unless triggered by Jordan. Five guys in a room, and if there is a flub, so what.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on March 13, 2016, 07:33:08 PM
It sounds to me like what some of you want is for DT to go back to a '60s & '70s style of recording, in the tradition of The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, etc. I think it might be interesting to see what would happen if they tried something like that, but I'm also thinking about how those bands were a product of their time, and DT is a product of this current generation, so I'm not sure about how doing that would work for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 13, 2016, 08:29:29 PM
I resent the idea that recording instruments *as they sound naturally* is some kind of indicator for passé music. In fact, go into any Starbucks, and you will hear that modern music puts a lot of emphasis on natural-sounding instruments and voices. It's DT who, sound-wise, are stuck in the late 90's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 13, 2016, 04:25:21 AM
I've pretty much run out of patience with DT at this point. They don't seem capable of satisfying the fundamentals that I think constitute great music anymore.

A great deal of that All of that is down to personal taste of course
*snip*

:P

I can relate to some of what you've said and it would always be interesting to see them try things differently, but I don't think I know or could say how it 'ought to be' although there are a lot of people who seem to know how to 'fix' DT and make them 'great again'. It just baffles me that someone could believe themselves when they're basically saying: "the band would be so much better if only they listened to me and just did what I want".

Sorry, it's perfectly valid for you to feel the way you do of course and I'm more using your comment as an outlet to express myself as opposed to singling you out personally or pretending to know exactly what you mean.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 01:25:36 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Astonished on March 14, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 06:23:38 AM
Quote from: The Astonished on March 14, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:

I like both far more than the typical DT fan.  Great stuff if you ask me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 01:25:36 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 14, 2016, 08:12:47 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 13, 2016, 08:29:29 PM
I resent the idea that recording instruments *as they sound naturally* is some kind of indicator for passé music. In fact, go into any Starbucks, and you will hear that modern music puts a lot of emphasis on natural-sounding instruments and voices. It's DT who, sound-wise, are stuck in the late 90's.

I don't think you got what chaossystem is getting at. Producing music naturally is fine, but things like counting in, no doubling and mistakes are products of a bygone era where those bands didn't have the time or money to polish up their material. None of that will make DT's music any better, trust me. Some of their most celebrated albums are as far from raw as you can get. IaW and Awake? Extremely polished albums.

That last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. I don't recall the late 90s having a particular sound.

Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

 :tup

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 14, 2016, 08:15:43 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 13, 2016, 04:25:21 AM
I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible. That goes on less than an hour. Drums that sounds like you're there next to them. The buzz of the amplifiers. No click track. Squeak of fingers on strings. Room ambience. Chatter between tracks. Vocals that aren't doubled/chorused all the time. Real piano. Lyrics that aren't a pointless, drawn out rehash of one of the most famous rock concept albums of all time.
That would be a neat record, for sure, but it wouldn't be a return to anything, because most of that is nothing they have ever done on any record before.  That would be a new thing.

That's all cool stuff.  It's just not what DT does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 14, 2016, 08:34:10 AM
I can't really hear how Mangini is the one who overplays. If anything, his drumming sounds simple because it blends in with what the other instruments are doing, but is actually hard to play.

He doesn't even come close to the drum playing in Blind Faith, TCOT or Misunderstood where Portnoy felt the need to play fills every gap he gets.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 14, 2016, 08:48:55 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 14, 2016, 08:34:10 AM
I can't really hear how Mangini is the one who overplays. If anything, his drumming sounds simple because it blends in with what the other instruments are doing, but is actually hard to play.

He doesn't even come close to the drum playing in Blind Faith, TCOT or Misunderstood where Portnoy felt the need to play fills every gap he gets.

Yeah, there's some intricate interaction with other instruments going on a lot of the time with MM. Some nice and subtle stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM
Begin Again is an awesome song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Astonished on March 14, 2016, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 06:23:38 AM
Quote from: The Astonished on March 14, 2016, 04:16:45 AM
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:

I like both far more than the typical DT fan.  Great stuff if you ask me.

Of course, I agree with that statement. But favourite song? That's definitely controversial. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 14, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 14, 2016, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 14, 2016, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.

It's a fine song, but you are right in terms of the story and it's only better than Whispers in the Wind in terms of slower songs.  I would say calling it awesome is somewhat controversial, it's not that good if you ask me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 14, 2016, 01:20:13 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 14, 2016, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 14, 2016, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.

The way I see it, the outro (one of the best moments in the album in my opinion) makes the song worthwhile. Without the outro, it sounds like "Act Of Faythe Pt. 2".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 14, 2016, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: SebastianPratesi on March 14, 2016, 01:20:13 PM
The way I see it, the outro (one of the best moments in the album in my opinion) makes the song worthwhile. Without the outro, it sounds like "Act Of Faythe Pt. 2".

Except that Act of Faythe is actually a good song. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 01:58:01 PM
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 01:25:36 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sneakyblueberry on March 14, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me. 

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Outcrier on March 14, 2016, 05:37:44 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 05:07:20 PM
It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

And i didn't found The Astonishing inspired at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 14, 2016, 07:21:19 PM
It WAS inspired . . . by 2112 and Romeo & Juliet   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 14, 2016, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

Funny, I think that one of Portnoy's bad traits as a drummer is that he tends to overplay stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 14, 2016, 07:49:31 PM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 14, 2016, 05:37:44 PM
Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

I discovered the band and become a fan in 2005, so I guess I'm a new fan. Anyway, for me, their songwriting and albums increased in quality in the last 5 years. I absolutely adore MP's drum parts, though (especially "Stream Of Consciousness" and "The Dark Eternal Night") - his drumming was one of the reasons I became a fan in the first place.

That said, I understand and agree with what you are saying. The Mars Volta was my favourite band in my teens. I fell in love with Frances The Mute in 2005, and literally thought to myself:
 
'This band is probably going to release a dozen weird albums and I'm going to buy and love them all'

Well, eventually that didn't happen :P, and their albums got less and less 'weird': they stopped singing in spanish, the songs got shorter and shorter, the salsa-ish instrumentals became non-existent. Granted, they experimented with other structures/moods, and had great songs on their last albums ("Ouroborous", "Desperate Graves", "Zed and Two Naughts"). So, pretty much the same with recent DT.
(From the interviews I've read, Omar always made it clear he did whatever was on his mind, and completely disregarded formulas or repeating himself, so I guess it's understandable.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 15, 2016, 07:20:51 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 01:25:36 AM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Easy; this isn't an idle thrown off comment; this is something that has been discussed to death on this and several other forums like this.  There is no "irony" in my "inspired" comment, because I am not talking about what I think, I am talking about what the ARTIST thinks.  I could easily swamp this thread with quotes from John and particularly Jordan about the positive feelings around this album; how it expanded from just "next album" to a double, from a double to a concept...

I think you're missing the subtle point of my post:  it's the way it's being looked at.  THEY this, THEY that.   Versus ME this, and ME that.   I won't keep harping on it, and I'm not questioning your views, just the way you say it.  THEY THEY THEY like you get to sit there and the world has to please you.  No, YOUR opinions have evolved, or not, in a way that doesn't track the bands progress.  That isn't on them, that's on you.  It's not "bad", it's not a criticism, just an observation.  I'm not questioning your VIEWS, or that you have differing views than anyone else; I'm calling you on blaming the band (someone else) for YOUR opinion.  So there's nothing (here) to "get over". 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 15, 2016, 07:24:25 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 01:58:01 PM
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.

That's the problem of TA for me.  Soft songs are good, some very good but where the band do rock, it is not interesting as they usually captivate me... but I'm still trying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 15, 2016, 07:26:41 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on March 14, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me.

Well, there are so many ballads on TA that I think they want us to start to dance... slows.  How many guys now can take their girl with them at the concert?  Now girls like TA.  Let's wave those hands fellows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 15, 2016, 07:28:26 AM
Quote from: Outcrier on March 14, 2016, 05:37:44 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on March 14, 2016, 05:07:20 PM
It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

And i didn't found The Astonishing inspired at all.

Look, I get it; this is an odd view to have, but I'm used to it.  It's not about agreeing with your position; it's about how your position is framed.    THEIR songwriting hasn't "declined" (how do you even measure that??), YOU just aren't in a position to appreciate what they are doing. That's fine. I'm right there with you.  I haven't listened to "DT" more than a hand full of times, and not once since about a month after it came out.  I'm having a hard time even getting through the first disk of TA, to be honest.  So I'm not arguing what you're seeing, I'm just saying it's not fair or accurate to blame the band because your "exquisite tastes" haven't been met.  I'm taking responsibility for my opinions, and taking ownership.  You're passing it off on the band. 

As for the drummer thing, well, Rush has never really gone after the "dance crowd" but Peart pulls off that magic, so....

I get the "overplaying" by Portnoy, but it just seems like - for me - all I seem to notice about Mangini is the machine gun bass drum attacks and machine gun snare hits at what seems like the end of every verse and every chorus and during every instrumental break.  It just sounds so MANIC.   I went back and listened to I&W, and the two Fan Club/Xmas CDs that focus on I&W, and while Mike does overplay a bit, I'm just more receptive, I think, to that kind of overplaying.  It's a little... free-er, if that's a word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 15, 2016, 07:29:00 AM
Quote from: sneakyblueberry on March 14, 2016, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: Stadler on March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me.

Oh and you are so right about the band since MP left.  Right on the nail.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 15, 2016, 08:17:53 AM
To say that The Astonishing isn't inspired is just... Not correct, in my opinion. :lol

The band spent over two years putting the story together, writing the musics and lyrics, and putting together a pretty detailed website on the album. They spent loads and loads of cash on it, to the point I've heard some people argue it wasn't a sound financial decision. In interviews, they're raving about it. They're proud of it.

It seems to me like they were clearly inspired by the thing, perhaps more than any DT album before it. Fair game if you don't like it, but "I don't like it" <> "It's uninspired".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 15, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
^Exactly^
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 15, 2016, 08:39:32 AM
I'm not sure you even need to listen to it to understand the album was inspired.  It's a ridiculous amount of work they put into it and to perform it all live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 15, 2016, 08:42:26 AM
People who say that TA is uninspired I guess are not in the creative business. You do not produce a two-hour rock musical with elaborate recurring motifs and other whatnot that you have not done before with just an uninspired going-by-the-nunbers mindset.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: terrell39 on March 15, 2016, 08:45:50 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 14, 2016, 01:58:01 PM
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.

I agree completely!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ADramaticTurnofChaos on March 15, 2016, 08:47:06 AM
You can't complain about DT12 feeling uninspired and "safe" and ask them to do something new and then when they do something new and different also call that uninspired.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 15, 2016, 09:11:49 AM
I was just listening to TA again, trying to like it a bit more when I had that thought.  Genesis is in my top 5 all time favorite band and the last few months I have been listening intensively to all their albums with a lot of appetite for their music.  Again some were amazing, some were not for my taste.  A few are just good albums and one of them is The lamb lies down on Broadway.  And then, pow!  Same feeling with The lamb than with TA.  The lamb is a double album and has been rated pretty high in Genesis history but for me I was never able to really like that album which is very much different to what I like about Genesis.  I think it's the same with DT last album.  The last few months, listening to The Lamb, I was kind of still trying to dig it but just a handful of songs are worth it.  I guess it's ok and that is what TA is doing to me even if I'm really trying to dig the whole concept album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 15, 2016, 09:16:12 AM
TA has a *lot* of problems. But lack of inspiration is not one them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 15, 2016, 12:32:29 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 15, 2016, 09:16:12 AM
TA has a *lot* of problems. But lack of inspiration is not one them.

Agreed.

subpar (in one's own opinion anyways) =/= uninspired

You may not have liked it, sure, but to assume they weren't spurred on by some creative force and desire to truly make something they wanted to make is really silly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 15, 2016, 01:18:46 PM
Sometimes one's taste change and while we still follow bands we loved growing up or followed for a long time, we've moved on to other styles of music.  Some like Rumbo, always search for the next style of music that challenges him.  I always search for new music.  Some I gravitate to more than other. 

I still follow the bands I love through the years.  Rumbo, that sound like a fair assessment to you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 15, 2016, 01:22:06 PM
Following a band is like a love affair. You're in love so you accept everything, the bad days and the good days. You have fights but you don't divorce. That's why you say this or that song sucks but you don't throw away your CDs and never listen to them again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 15, 2016, 01:28:48 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 15, 2016, 01:22:06 PM
Following a band is like a love affair. You're in love so you accept everything, the bad days and the good days. You have fights but you don't divorce. That's why you say this or that song sucks but you don't throw away your CDs and never listen to them again.

Pretty much. I didn't like that open marriage phase of my relationship with Dream Theater when they released Falling Into Infinity, but we fought through it and are better than ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 15, 2016, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 15, 2016, 01:18:46 PM
Sometimes one's taste change and while we still follow bands we loved growing up or followed for a long time, we've moved on to other styles of music.  Some like Rumbo, always search for the next style of music that challenges him.  I always search for new music.  Some I gravitate to more than other. 

I still follow the bands I love through the years.  Rumbo, that sound like a fair assessment to you?

I think so, yeah. I don't like it when artists just tread water. That's why I appreciate what DT were trying to do with TA (despite the fact that I find the execution lacking). Sometimes an artist loses me when they go into a direction I personally don't like, but overall it makes me at least come back for the next album to see whether I like that one. Had DT just done another album in the vein of ADTOE and DT12, I might not even have checked the one after that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on March 15, 2016, 05:12:46 PM
controversial opinion: it's been a month or so since I listened to TA and I guess I should listen to it again soon but dedicating over 2 hours to an album when I have so much else I want to do feels like a total waste of time

basically: holy hell this album should've been half as long as it is
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 15, 2016, 07:31:16 PM
Your integrity knows no bounds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 15, 2016, 07:37:16 PM
Quote from: Parama on March 15, 2016, 05:12:46 PM
controversial opinion: it's been a month or so since I listened to TA and I guess I should listen to it again soon but dedicating over 2 hours to an album when I have so much else I want to do feels like a total waste of time

basically: holy hell this album should've been half as long as it is

It would have been much better for sure. They were certainly inspired for it. You can't come up with a well detailed story and music for 2 hours + without a lot of ideas. I think there is just too much slack In the process and too much repetitive parts of music that finally bores.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 15, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

One strategy is to be ashamed of the cheesy bits... Another is to laugh at them and embrace your inner dork. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 15, 2016, 08:33:38 PM
I'm not sure non-DT fans would hear their music and notice the lyrics much anyway.  I would think the (what many would see as over)playing and JLB's voice would be the things most notice at first, good or bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 16, 2016, 02:32:11 AM
One of my favorite moments as a DT fan is sitting at a red light after work and seeing a man diagonal from me look back with a frown as the crazy section at the end of the Metropolis instrumental section was on.

That's what people notice. NOISE NOISE NOISE
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 16, 2016, 07:03:29 AM
Quote from: Zook on March 16, 2016, 02:32:11 AM
One of my favorite moments as a DT fan is sitting at a red light after work and seeing a man diagonal from me look back with a frown as the crazy section at the end of the Metropolis instrumental section was on.

That's what people notice. NOISE NOISE NOISE

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 16, 2016, 11:36:39 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

Quite. Did he have trouble blasting "dark master" also? If not, statement is invalid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 16, 2016, 11:39:10 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

I never equated DT to say like, The Bay City Rollers or NKOTB if you were a closet fan. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 16, 2016, 11:41:48 AM
I actually had Bay City Roller trading cards when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 16, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: TAC on March 16, 2016, 11:41:48 AM
I actually had Bay City Roller trading cards when I was a kid.

SHHHHHH!!!!!!   


But did you have the Tartan slacks? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 16, 2016, 12:33:08 PM
Toughskins! Husky!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 16, 2016, 12:40:14 PM
Quote from: TAC on March 16, 2016, 12:33:08 PM
Toughskins! Husky!  :lol

 :lol  The same! :lol

I think the knee pads on those will outlive us.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:02:37 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 15, 2016, 08:33:38 PM
I'm not sure non-DT fans would hear their music and notice the lyrics much anyway.  I would think the (what many would see as over)playing and JLB's voice would be the things most notice at first, good or bad.

Non DT fans simply don't listen to their music or what's the goal of it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 16, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

If you're too embarrassed to listen to a particular type of music, why bother listening to it at all. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 16, 2016, 10:57:13 PM
I love bumping music others would consider embarrassing, which is funny cause their reaction is usually "what the hell you listening to?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.

https://www.yahoo.com/music/dream-theater-live-out-sci-fi-fantasies-with-the-000938042.html (https://www.yahoo.com/music/dream-theater-live-out-sci-fi-fantasies-with-the-000938042.html)

Quote
Not only does he (JP) feel music is undervalued and treated like something to trade and discard, he’s concerned that people seem to lack the attention spans to listen full albums, let alone full-fledged double-disc concept records.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 07:29:34 AM
IMO, The Astonishing makes SFaM looks like child's play.  TA is superior in its writing, composition, and ambition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 17, 2016, 07:39:46 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think their goal was kind of the opposite of what you said.

From what I've read, the band felt like music has become something people enjoy more passively than actively, so they sought to write an album that would demand listeners sit down and invest their time in the thing.

Your post makes it seem like the band decided to write short songs in order to flow more synchronously with the tide versus against it. Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but if that is your point, then that's just wrong. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.

Absolutely this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.

Absolutely this.

Well, I really wouldn't consider either one a 'masterpiece'; I prefer I&W and Awake to both records. But what do you think SFAM does so well that TA doesn't? The lyrics/concept on TA could certainly be improved, but in terms of melodies/songwriting I really think TA is on another level entirely. Aside from the excellent standout tracks (Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free) I would even say that I think SFAM is a little tedious and stretches some of its musical motifs too thin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 08:22:30 AM
Quote from: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.

Absolutely this.

Well, I really wouldn't consider either one a 'masterpiece'; I prefer I&W and Awake to both records. But what do you think SFAM does so well that TA doesn't? The lyrics/concept on TA could certainly be improved, but in terms of melodies/songwriting I really think TA is on another level entirely. Aside from the excellent standout tracks (Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free) I would even say that I think SFAM is a little tedious and stretches some of its musical motifs too thin.

3/4 of TA is tedious and stretched thin to me, with a lot of repetition and samey sections that are only there to serve as background to the story. I never once managed to get through the album in one sitting.
SFAM was a fresh lineup with something to prove firing on all cylinders, has better melodies/songwriting, more energy, a better balance and variety of instrumental sections, more complex and rewarding music, better pacing, and most importantly the songwriting is stellar from start to finish. Neither album has story/lyrics as a strength, but TA has a lot of dud lyrics that actively bother me, which is a rarity for me as I don't place much importance on lyrics.

The majority of DT fans would rank SFAM as a top 3 DT album at the least and would probably consider it a masterpiece, but hey, this is the controversial opinion thread! :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 17, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
Quote from: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 07:29:34 AM
IMO, The Astonishing makes SFaM looks like child's play.  TA is superior in its writing, composition, and ambition.

you have to be kidding
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 08:25:46 AM
SFAM is better from an individual song perspective.  Each song stands on its own.  As much as I love TA, I don't see that as the case as I see that album viewed better as groupings of songs since there aren't many chorus' but musical themes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 17, 2016, 08:28:14 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 08:22:30 AM
Quote from: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.

Absolutely this.

Well, I really wouldn't consider either one a 'masterpiece'; I prefer I&W and Awake to both records. But what do you think SFAM does so well that TA doesn't? The lyrics/concept on TA could certainly be improved, but in terms of melodies/songwriting I really think TA is on another level entirely. Aside from the excellent standout tracks (Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free) I would even say that I think SFAM is a little tedious and stretches some of its musical motifs too thin.

3/4 of TA is tedious and stretched thin to me, with a lot of repetition and samey sections that are only there to serve as background to the story. I never once managed to get through the album in one sitting.
SFAM was a fresh lineup with something to prove firing on all cylinders, has better melodies/songwriting, more energy, a better balance and variety of instrumental sections, more complex and rewarding music, better pacing, and most importantly the songwriting is stellar from start to finish. Neither album has story/lyrics as a strength, but TA has a lot of dud lyrics that actively bother me, which is a rarity for me as I don't place much importance on lyrics.

The majority of DT fans would rank SFAM as a top 3 DT album at the least and would probably consider it a masterpiece, but hey, this is the controversial opinion thread! :biggrin:

Your honor, I have no more questions. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 08:32:36 AM
Quote from: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 07:29:34 AM
IMO, The Astonishing makes SFaM looks like child's play.  TA is superior in its writing, composition, and ambition.
Hmm...that is a strong claim, and I think I probably agree with the second sentence at the end of the day.  But, given where the band were at the time they wrote SFAM, it could be argued that SFAM was more ambitious given what the band had to work with.  I'm not sure TA could have been written if the band had never written SFAM and had this many years of what they did with that album soaking in and becoming second nature. 

Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 08:25:46 AM
SFAM is better from an individual song perspective.  Each song stands on its own.  As much as I love TA, I don't see that as the case as I see that album viewed better as groupings of songs since there aren't many chorus' but musical themes.
I actually feel exactly the opposite.  A number of songs on TA stand on their own merit quite well, whereas SFAM as an album is definitely greater than the sum of its individual parts, other than a couple of standout exceptions. 

That said, SFAM is still my #2 DT album behind SDOIT.  I still have no idea where I will ultimately rank TA.  But I think I pretty high ranking is in store.  Initially, I felt like the album could potentially plummet a bit once the newness wore off.  But it has been steadily growing in my estimation since release, and I am finding lots of layers and lots of cool little nuances throughout the album that are the kinds of things that tend to give an album staying power with me.  Not sure it will crack my elite top 4, but I think it could at least knock I&W out of the #5 spot to be at the top of the next tier.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 08:50:24 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 08:22:30 AM
Quote from: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 08:07:54 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 07:59:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 17, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
I agree TA is more ambitious, but pales in comparison to the masterpiece of SFAM.

Absolutely this.

Well, I really wouldn't consider either one a 'masterpiece'; I prefer I&W and Awake to both records. But what do you think SFAM does so well that TA doesn't? The lyrics/concept on TA could certainly be improved, but in terms of melodies/songwriting I really think TA is on another level entirely. Aside from the excellent standout tracks (Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free) I would even say that I think SFAM is a little tedious and stretches some of its musical motifs too thin.

3/4 of TA is tedious and stretched thin to me, with a lot of repetition and samey sections that are only there to serve as background to the story. I never once managed to get through the album in one sitting.
SFAM was a fresh lineup with something to prove firing on all cylinders, has better melodies/songwriting, more energy, a better balance and variety of instrumental sections, more complex and rewarding music, better pacing, and most importantly the songwriting is stellar from start to finish. Neither album has story/lyrics as a strength, but TA has a lot of dud lyrics that actively bother me, which is a rarity for me as I don't place much importance on lyrics.

The majority of DT fans would rank SFAM as a top 3 DT album at the least and would probably consider it a masterpiece, but hey, this is the controversial opinion thread! :biggrin:

To be clear, I hugely enjoy both records. Maybe I'm just uncomfortable with the 'masterpiece' label when both SFAM and TA have some off-putting moments and lyrics that don't really impress me.

However, when it comes to melodies and songwriting, I just think TA is flat-out superior. A large portion of SFAM (Through My Words, Beyond This Life, Through Her Eyes, One Last Time) leaves me a little cold. The ballads are kind of meh. Even The Dance of Eternity is more technically impressive than it is musically enjoyable for me. Comparatively, I think the weak tracks on TA (Act of Faythe, BCYHM?, Begin Again, Losing Faythe) are few and far between given the length and overall consistency of the album. TA just moves from strength to strength over an extremely varied course of songs and musical approaches. I would take A Better Life, Ravenskill, X Aspect, or My Last Farewell over anything on SFAM.

Do you not think the band is 'firing on all cylinders' during TA? They certainly sound like it. I don't think Jordan, JP, or James in particular have ever sounded better.

EDIT: Oh, and as a drummer myself, I far prefer Mangini's style to Portnoy's. Part of my enjoyment of the MM-era records is because the drumming is so memorable for me. Maybe that's also a little controversial to say  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 08:52:48 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 08:32:36 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 08:25:46 AM
SFAM is better from an individual song perspective.  Each song stands on its own.  As much as I love TA, I don't see that as the case as I see that album viewed better as groupings of songs since there aren't many chorus' but musical themes.
I actually feel exactly the opposite.  A number of songs on TA stand on their own merit quite well, whereas SFAM as an album is definitely greater than the sum of its individual parts, other than a couple of standout exceptions. 

There certainly are a number of songs on TA that stand alone quite well.  I guess it's a personal thing, I feel the album is so much easier to digest in song groupings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 17, 2016, 08:54:31 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 08:32:36 AM
That said, SFAM is still my #2 DT album behind SDOIT.  I still have no idea where I will ultimately rank TA.  But I think I pretty high ranking is in store.  Initially, I felt like the album could potentially plummet a bit once the newness wore off.  But it has been steadily growing in my estimation since release, and I am finding lots of layers and lots of cool little nuances throughout the album that are the kinds of things that tend to give an album staying power with me.  Not sure it will crack my elite top 4, but I think it could at least knock I&W out of the #5 spot to be at the top of the next tier.
What are your #3 and #4 albums?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 17, 2016, 09:06:52 AM
- SFAM has almost no weak songs
- It is concise, never feels like unnecessary stretching
- The concept is a bit campy, but not in-your-face campy as TA is
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 09:10:11 AM
Quote from: SebastianPratesi on March 17, 2016, 08:54:31 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 08:32:36 AM
That said, SFAM is still my #2 DT album behind SDOIT.  I still have no idea where I will ultimately rank TA.  But I think I pretty high ranking is in store.  Initially, I felt like the album could potentially plummet a bit once the newness wore off.  But it has been steadily growing in my estimation since release, and I am finding lots of layers and lots of cool little nuances throughout the album that are the kinds of things that tend to give an album staying power with me.  Not sure it will crack my elite top 4, but I think it could at least knock I&W out of the #5 spot to be at the top of the next tier.
What are your #3 and #4 albums?
3.  ADTOE
4.  DT12
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 17, 2016, 09:22:30 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 09:10:11 AM
3.  ADTOE
4.  DT12
:tup (I also rank those albums highly)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
I don't find very fair to compare SFAM with TA, because although both of them are concept albums they are vastly different in scope, reach, ambition and structure. SFAM is the quintessential prog metal album, wheras TA has an entirely different musical dialogue and reach. Both reflect the band in entirely different mindsets; SFAM had the band in need of writing the most kickass-definitive progressive metal album of their career and TA was a step the band needed to take to stay innovative and fresh after a damn long history of 13 albums. After so many years and so much music, it's different for a band to do something really different that makes an impact in their community, and with that I think that they succeeded with The Astonishing.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 09:58:48 AM
Quote from: SebastianPratesi on March 17, 2016, 09:22:30 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 09:10:11 AM
3.  ADTOE
4.  DT12
:tup (I also rank those albums highly)
Fantastic albums.  As I have said elsewhere, they don't quite reach the highs of some of the best from an album like I&W, but they are much more consistent as a whole.  I love it that the last three albums are some of the best music the band has done in their entire career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2016, 10:05:30 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
I don't find very fair to compare SFAM with TA, because although both of them are concept album they are vastly different in scope, reach, ambition and structure. SFAM is the quintessential prog metal album, wheras TA has an entirely different musical dialogue and reach. Both reflect the band in entirely different mindsets; SFAM had the band in need of writing the most kickass-definitive progressive metal album of their career and TA was a step the band needed to take to stay innovative and fresh after a damn long history of 13 albums. After so many years and so much music, it's different for a band to do something really different that makes an impact in their community, and with that I think that they succeeded with The Astonishing.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.
I agree with all of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 17, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
As I said before, TA and SFAM is really hard to compare because they are two different things.

TA is a musical and works well as a musical. The music is written like a musical score, not a technical prog album. The objectives of the songs are to move the narrative forward and to give layers of characterization to the characters. If judged as a typical prog concept album, of course it would feel bloated, overlong and full of filler and recurring motifs. The technical instrumentality in the album would not be as impressive because it is written as a musical score.

In the same vein, SFAM is very strong as a typical prog concept album. But it will not work as a musical. The instrumentals are too long, the plot is too thin, the characters are not well developed. But why wouLd I judge it as a musical? It is not.

If you find TA a slog to listen through in one sitting, most likely you would find Jesus Christ Superstar to similarly have so many songs that feel like filler. Or Miss Saigon. Or maybe even Les Miserables.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 17, 2016, 10:10:09 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
I don't find very fair to compare SFAM with TA, because although both of them are concept album they are vastly different in scope, reach, ambition and structure. SFAM is the quintessential prog metal album, wheras TA has an entirely different musical dialogue and reach. Both reflect the band in entirely different mindsets; SFAM had the band in need of writing the most kickass-definitive progressive metal album of their career and TA was a step the band needed to take to stay innovative and fresh after a damn long history of 13 albums. After so many years and so much music, it's different for a band to do something really different that makes an impact in their community, and with that I think that they succeeded with The Astonishing.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.

Great post! :tup

DT have aged remarkably well. They are still writing really good albums, as far as I'm concerned, especially considering how often they put them out. You compare them to a band like, say, Metallica, who have all but lost their passion for creating new music, and it's pretty damn impressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 17, 2016, 10:23:14 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.

I think DT subvert that trend, along with other Prog Metal bands like Symphony X and Threshold. TA is second only to IaW at the moment for me.

Quote from: erwinrafael on March 17, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
As I said before, TA and SFAM is really hard to compare because they are two different things.

TA is a musical and works well as a musical. The music is written like a musical score, not a technical prog album. The objectives of the songs are to move the narrative forward and to give layers of characterization to the characters. If judged as a typical prog concept album, of course it would feel bloated, overlong and full of filler and recurring motifs. The technical instrumentality in the album would not be as impressive because it is written as a musical score.

In the same vein, SFAM is very strong as a typical prog concept album. But it will not work as a musical. The instrumentals are too long, the plot is too thin, the characters are not well developed. But why wouLd I judge it as a musical? It is not.

If you find TA a slog to listen through in one sitting, most likely you would find Jesus Christ Superstar to similarly have so many songs that feel like filler. Or Miss Saigon. Or maybe even Les Miserables.

Spot on there. :tup I feel like TA is a more mature effort than SfaM due to how subtly intricate and restrained it is. SfaM is a great achievement and milestone for the band, but it is among a few of those in DT's discography and I feel that TA is one of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 17, 2016, 10:34:01 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on March 17, 2016, 10:23:14 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.

I think DT subvert that trend, along with other Prog Metal bands like Symphony X and Threshold. TA is second only to IaW at the moment for me.

Yeah, I tend to agree.  When I look at what I listened to in the '80s, I find that I don't listen to many of those bands much anymore.  Part of it is that I have kind of moved on from where I was musically back then, as my mindset has changed and matured.  But that isn't it entirely, as I still go back to those old classics.  For the most part, it is just that most of those bands, if they are still making music at all, aren't making music that is as strong or as passionate.  The bands that are in heavy rotation nowadays for me are the few that have bucked the trend, or just newer bands.  And most of the long-standing bands/artists that have bucked the trend are in the progressive category (or at least flirt with it), such as DT, Symphony X (more power metal than prog metal, but okay), Neal Morse, and Transatlantic (after 4 albums, I have to consider them a viable "band" rather than simply a "side project").  One non-prog band that I would consider to have put out consistently strong output in recent years is Maiden (despite that I felt that TBOS was a step down from the last three albums).  I also have to give Queensryche and Stryper props for finding their way and putting out strong, inspired-sounding material for at least a couple of albums each now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: oceanic156 on March 17, 2016, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 17, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
As I said before, TA and SFAM is really hard to compare because they are two different things.

TA is a musical and works well as a musical. The music is written like a musical score, not a technical prog album. The objectives of the songs are to move the narrative forward and to give layers of characterization to the characters. If judged as a typical prog concept album, of course it would feel bloated, overlong and full of filler and recurring motifs. The technical instrumentality in the album would not be as impressive because it is written as a musical score.

In the same vein, SFAM is very strong as a typical prog concept album. But it will not work as a musical. The instrumentals are too long, the plot is too thin, the characters are not well developed. But why wouLd I judge it as a musical? It is not.

If you find TA a slog to listen through in one sitting, most likely you would find Jesus Christ Superstar to similarly have so many songs that feel like filler. Or Miss Saigon. Or maybe even Les Miserables.

Although there are certainly elements of musical theater within the structure and flavor of TA, for me it shines best as just a prog rock album. Even taken out of their narrative context, TA is full of interesting and musically progressive songs. There are clear musical connections with DT12, also- I think something like 'The Bigger Picture' would fit perfectly on TA. I don't think it's unfair to compare TA with other DT albums. I also don't find the music to be jarringly or wildly different from the rest of DT's catalogue, it's just placed in a different context.

If you asked me to compare (just an example from recent memory) Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly with Scenes From a Memory on equal terms, I would find that to be very challenging, given the sociopolitical context and focus on lyricism that drives TPAB. But I think DT have a pretty established sound that they've done great things with through all their records.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 17, 2016, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2016, 10:05:30 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
I don't find very fair to compare SFAM with TA, because although both of them are concept album they are vastly different in scope, reach, ambition and structure. SFAM is the quintessential prog metal album, wheras TA has an entirely different musical dialogue and reach. Both reflect the band in entirely different mindsets; SFAM had the band in need of writing the most kickass-definitive progressive metal album of their career and TA was a step the band needed to take to stay innovative and fresh after a damn long history of 13 albums. After so many years and so much music, it's different for a band to do something really different that makes an impact in their community, and with that I think that they succeeded with The Astonishing.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.
I agree with all of this.

Same here. Not many bands can still keep it fresh and intriguing thirty years into their career. It's one of their most versatile releases. TA doesn't quite crack the Top 5 for me but it's sitting pretty at number six.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 12:47:33 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 17, 2016, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 17, 2016, 10:05:30 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 17, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
I don't find very fair to compare SFAM with TA, because although both of them are concept album they are vastly different in scope, reach, ambition and structure. SFAM is the quintessential prog metal album, wheras TA has an entirely different musical dialogue and reach. Both reflect the band in entirely different mindsets; SFAM had the band in need of writing the most kickass-definitive progressive metal album of their career and TA was a step the band needed to take to stay innovative and fresh after a damn long history of 13 albums. After so many years and so much music, it's different for a band to do something really different that makes an impact in their community, and with that I think that they succeeded with The Astonishing.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the musical quality of bands tends to go downhill after so many years and albums, and I think I agree; and with that in mind I think DT did a hell of a good job with their latest album.
I agree with all of this.

Same here. Not many bands can still keep it fresh and intriguing thirty years into their career. It's one of their most versatile releases. TA doesn't quite crack the Top 5 for me but it's sitting pretty at number six.

I agree with all of this.  I still need to figure out where this album sits, doesn't crack my top few for sure, but I haven't exactly figured out where in the middle it belongs.  I'm not sure where it sits compared to SFAM either actually.  I&W, Awake, ADTOE, BC&SL are my top 4.  This could be 5 or maybe SFAM is 5.  There's just so much music here it makes it hard to compare to every other album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 17, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Wow. I don't see BC&SL ranked that high in many people's lists. It's a great album but it gets overshadowed by their other releases.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 12:54:43 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 17, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Wow. I don't see BC&SL ranked that high in many people's lists. It's a great album but it gets overshadowed by their other releases.

Yup, that's part of my controversial opinions on DT.  I love that album.  Part of that love though is tied to the good times I had during that summer so the music always reminds me of those good times and therefore I like it a lot more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 17, 2016, 01:28:00 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 17, 2016, 12:54:43 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 17, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Wow. I don't see BC&SL ranked that high in many people's lists. It's a great album but it gets overshadowed by their other releases.

Yup, that's part of my controversial opinions on DT.  I love that album.  Part of that love though is tied to the good times I had during that summer so the music always reminds me of those good times and therefore I like it a lot more.
In my case, since it was released in Winter in my country, and since a lot of the music is dark and minor key, I've always considered it Winter-y music. The artwork also reminds me of Winter. "The Best Of Times" (minus the intro and outro) is the only Summer-y thing in the album to me.

Weird how albums can evoke opposite moods/memories.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 17, 2016, 10:12:18 PM
I really love The Astonishing, like really, but Beyond This Life alone is better than that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Crow on March 17, 2016, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.
so instead they made a 2+ hour album that people who like listening to whole albums will never have the time to listen to???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 18, 2016, 12:12:05 AM
Quote from: Parama on March 17, 2016, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.
so instead they made a 2+ hour album that people who like listening to whole albums will never have the time to listen to???

I don't know what interview red barchetta is referring to, but I read an interview that says the opposite. They purposely made a two-hour rock opera to FORCE people to listen to a whole album instead of a bunch of individual songs.

Edit: ok, found the interview:

https://rocksverige.se/intervju-john-petrucci-fran-dream-theater/

Excerpts:

"The new album (The Astonishing) is quite the challenge to listen to all the way through. I´m thinking these days with everybody having ADD and people can hardly focus on anything beyond 3 minutes. What´s your thought on that?

John: I knew that for sure, exactly what you´re hitting on. First of all, this whole thing was written to be a show and that´s why it´s so long. If we were just doing a concept album, like “Metropolis part 2: Scenes from a memory” (1999), it could´ve been an hour or something like that, but what we wanted to do, is write a standalone show, like we´re performing tonight. If you go to a Broadway show or an opera or something, you´re gonna be there for over two hours, so we couldn´t just write an hour long thing. Basically we wrote two albums worth of material, so that´s number one. Doing that, we knew it would be a challenge. It´s the same thing as watching “Lord of the rings”, you have to put the time aside. The thing that is funny to me, is that there is this underlying theme in the concept about the importance of music and the power of music and also people not having the time for music. I think it´s kinda ironic that you actually have to make the time to listen to it. (laughs)"

...

Listening to the album, you really get the feel of a movie going along with it. Any plans for something like that?

John: Right. When we first started thinking about this, again, it wasn´t that we were just writing an album, we wanted to write something that would cross different medias and could be whatever we imagined it to be and I was always so impressed with rock musicals like “Jesus Christ Superstar”, “Tommy” or “American idiot” and it was like “We´re like the perfect band to do something like this. We´re called Dream Theater.” Doing that, is a goal that´s on the horizon. Being able to score a movie is something that people have always said, “You guys should score a movie.”, but we never did, so it´s kinda like we scored our own thing. To have that turn into something visual like a movie would be awesome. Some of the things that are already in development, are a videogame, which it is perfect for, and a novelization, which we haven´t announced officially, but we´re in talks with that. We´re taking the steps to get there and hopefully it will turn into this other thing.

...

How do you feel about the way music has changed and the way people listen to music today? You were there when bands sold records and now it´s so different.

John: There are two ways to look at it. Back in the day, just for example of having commercial success and charting or whatever, so many records were sold, so the pop artists kinda took over with that stuff. You couldn´t even compete, because they were selling millions of records. Now there are so many less physical sales of cd´s and records, that for a band like ours which such a powerful worldwide audience, we are actually able to compete and we don´t have to sell a million records to chart in top 10, so it´s pretty crazy when you look at that. The thing is, and again it´s the underlying message with this album, music is being consumed in more of a passive way. With streaming and downloading it´s just too easy to kind of make it some background thing, so the idea that we wrote something that almost forces you to have to sit down and listen to it, we used to do that and we base a lot on our own experiences. As teenagers we used to listen to entire Rush albums, entire Pink Floyd albums and shut down the lights and it was great. It was not like today when you listen to a song for 30 seconds."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 18, 2016, 05:37:58 AM
What the fans can or cannot do should have no bearing on anything when a band is writing and recording a new album.  If some fans think it is too long to listen to, that is their problem, not theirs, and it says nothing about the quality of the album.  That is why I am chuckling at most bad reviews of the album; the vast majority are by people who say they listened to it once or twice, or even some cases, not even once.  It's hard to take seriously the opinion of anyone who doesn't put in the time to listen to an album that requires time and dedication to get a good grasp of it.  If someone is not a DT fan, I can see not taking the time (har has ;)), but if you are an existing fan, and you chucked it after one or two listens, then you probably aren't much of a fan to begin with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: shadystraz360 on March 18, 2016, 06:05:10 AM
I will be honest. When i first heard "The Astonishing"... i didn't really take to it.. felt it was lacking the DT flavour it needed... too much piano and not enough soul... but after seeing them in London my entire perspective changed.. seeing the story for what it was on the screen was great.. and now im constently listening.... lots tried to dig and bury it cause they wanted different.. past DT.. But when you follow the story and actually gove it a chance... you will be Astonished
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 18, 2016, 07:53:04 AM
I was very "meh" after listen 1, but by listen 3 I was "this is good" and by listen 8 I was  :omg:  It's a lot to digest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
Quote from: Parama on March 17, 2016, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.
so instead they made a 2+ hour album that people who like listening to whole albums will never have the time to listen to???
https://www.yahoo.com/music/dream-theater-live-out-sci-fi-fantasies-with-the-000938042.html


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2016, 08:28:08 AM
Yeah, that interview still says the exact opposite of what you said in your earlier post.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 08:40:35 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 18, 2016, 12:12:05 AM
Quote from: Parama on March 17, 2016, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 16, 2016, 10:09:37 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.

They said in an interview that they wanted to come with an album of short songs because people don't have the time to listen to long songs. So that is what they've done.
so instead they made a 2+ hour album that people who like listening to whole albums will never have the time to listen to???

I don't know what interview red barchetta is referring to, but I read an interview that says the opposite. They purposely made a two-hour rock opera to FORCE people to listen to a whole album instead of a bunch of individual songs.

Edit: ok, found the interview:

https://rocksverige.se/intervju-john-petrucci-fran-dream-theater/

Excerpts:

"The new album (The Astonishing) is quite the challenge to listen to all the way through. I´m thinking these days with everybody having ADD and people can hardly focus on anything beyond 3 minutes. What´s your thought on that?

John: I knew that for sure, exactly what you´re hitting on. First of all, this whole thing was written to be a show and that´s why it´s so long. If we were just doing a concept album, like “Metropolis part 2: Scenes from a memory” (1999), it could´ve been an hour or something like that, but what we wanted to do, is write a standalone show, like we´re performing tonight. If you go to a Broadway show or an opera or something, you´re gonna be there for over two hours, so we couldn´t just write an hour long thing. Basically we wrote two albums worth of material, so that´s number one. Doing that, we knew it would be a challenge. It´s the same thing as watching “Lord of the rings”, you have to put the time aside. The thing that is funny to me, is that there is this underlying theme in the concept about the importance of music and the power of music and also people not having the time for music. I think it´s kinda ironic that you actually have to make the time to listen to it. (laughs)"

...

Listening to the album, you really get the feel of a movie going along with it. Any plans for something like that?

John: Right. When we first started thinking about this, again, it wasn´t that we were just writing an album, we wanted to write something that would cross different medias and could be whatever we imagined it to be and I was always so impressed with rock musicals like “Jesus Christ Superstar”, “Tommy” or “American idiot” and it was like “We´re like the perfect band to do something like this. We´re called Dream Theater.” Doing that, is a goal that´s on the horizon. Being able to score a movie is something that people have always said, “You guys should score a movie.”, but we never did, so it´s kinda like we scored our own thing. To have that turn into something visual like a movie would be awesome. Some of the things that are already in development, are a videogame, which it is perfect for, and a novelization, which we haven´t announced officially, but we´re in talks with that. We´re taking the steps to get there and hopefully it will turn into this other thing.

...

How do you feel about the way music has changed and the way people listen to music today? You were there when bands sold records and now it´s so different.

John: There are two ways to look at it. Back in the day, just for example of having commercial success and charting or whatever, so many records were sold, so the pop artists kinda took over with that stuff. You couldn´t even compete, because they were selling millions of records. Now there are so many less physical sales of cd´s and records, that for a band like ours which such a powerful worldwide audience, we are actually able to compete and we don´t have to sell a million records to chart in top 10, so it´s pretty crazy when you look at that. The thing is, and again it´s the underlying message with this album, music is being consumed in more of a passive way. With streaming and downloading it´s just too easy to kind of make it some background thing, so the idea that we wrote something that almost forces you to have to sit down and listen to it, we used to do that and we base a lot on our own experiences. As teenagers we used to listen to entire Rush albums, entire Pink Floyd albums and shut down the lights and it was great. It was not like today when you listen to a song for 30 seconds."


That's what I meant, a lot of short songs but no long ones cause people don't listen to them.

and by all the comments I have read, it's rather non DT fans or non real DT fans cause they don't listen more than a couple of Times the album that are not liking it......
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2016, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 08:40:35 AM
That's what I meant, a lot of short songs but no long ones cause people don't listen to them.

That is not what that interview says.  It says nothing about writing short songs and no long ones.  It says JP made a decision to write a long album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 18, 2016, 08:58:31 AM
Besides, most people who follow Dream Theater want the mix of short and long songs.


My favorite songs are the long songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 12:09:48 PM
He clearly said he wanted to write  shorter songs in an interview I read. But who cares anyway.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 18, 2016, 12:26:36 PM
Obviously, you care, since you keep posting the same thing despite not being able to find this mystery interview.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 18, 2016, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 12:09:48 PM
He clearly said he wanted to write  shorter songs in an interview I read. But who cares anyway.  :facepalm:

*types short on the both links*

*no results found*

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 18, 2016, 12:31:04 PM
Sure they said they went for shorter songs.  I read that.  It's just not for the reasons you are saying.  That's all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 18, 2016, 07:34:57 PM
Regarding the tour, how many dollars would it have cost to suspend a few NOMACs from the ceiling?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 18, 2016, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 18, 2016, 08:28:08 AM
Yeah, that interview still says the exact opposite of what you said in your earlier post.

Exactly.

“With this album we’re kind of forcing people to make the time, since we’ve made it a two-act album where you have to listen to the whole thing in order to get it. So make some popcorn and grab a beer, and take some time to slow down and take it in. And then realize what went into making it. If more people could do that, then maybe they’d realize how important the arts and artists are in their lives.”

How that translates to "they write shorter songs" is beyond me. The premise is that people do not make time for music, so DT decided to force people to make time to listen to their music by writing a double album that can only be appreciated if listened as a whole.

Closest thing I can find to writing short songs is this quote from Jordan in another interview.

"This album has shorter songs only because it’s trying to tell a story and we wrote as much music as we needed for each scene of that story."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on March 18, 2016, 08:50:11 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 18, 2016, 12:31:04 PM
Sure they said they went for shorter songs.  I read that.  It's just not for the reasons you are saying.  That's all.

well, thanks. I might have taken it the wrong way.  English is not my first langage and reading never been my cup of tea.  Always preferred to talk to English guys I have met around the world. 

Thank you for being open minded. I have tried to find that article.  I only found articles in which Petrucci was saying that they wrote short songs, it suited better their story.  He was also saying that with a concept album he was thinking that it would get people to stick to the story the whole time.  And that today's music in consume rapidly, people listen to 30 seconds a song and switch to the other one.

I'm gonna have to be very careful about what I write.  I don't necessarily follow the current.  I'm an open book.

Haben sie eine frague.  Creo que no.  C'est peine perdue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 19, 2016, 04:50:30 AM
Hey, no worries. I speak English and misspell all the time. :lol. True story!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DragonAttack on March 19, 2016, 09:13:04 AM
^
Laugh of the day! :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 19, 2016, 03:10:52 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on March 19, 2016, 04:50:30 AM
Hey, no worries. I speak English and misspell all the time. :lol. True story!

 :rollin

I can vouch for this!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on March 19, 2016, 03:32:22 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 18, 2016, 07:34:57 PM
Regarding the tour, how many dollars would it have cost to suspend a few NOMACs from the ceiling?

Well, they probably wanted to but couldn't get them painted in time and shipped from China but they didn't want to delay the concerts so they went ahead with them anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DrumChespi on March 22, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
Ok I have onet hat could be interesting. For me, When Your Time Has Come is their best ballad song since they did The Spirit Carries On. (Not counting the melancolic songs like Dissapear)
What do you think?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 22, 2016, 12:24:33 PM
Quote from: DrumChespi on March 22, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
Ok I have onet hat could be interesting. For me, When Your Time Has Come is their best ballad song since they did The Spirit Carries On. (Not counting the melancolic songs like Dissapear)
What do you think?

Nah, Act Of Faythe is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on March 22, 2016, 12:25:49 PM
Quote from: DrumChespi on March 22, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
Ok I have onet hat could be interesting. For me, When Your Time Has Come is their best ballad song since they did The Spirit Carries On. (Not counting the melancolic songs like Dissapear)
What do you think?

I don't even think that it's the best "ballad" on this disc. I prefer The X Aspect, A Life Left Behind, and Losing Faythe to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 22, 2016, 12:32:32 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 22, 2016, 12:25:49 PM
Quote from: DrumChespi on March 22, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
Ok I have onet hat could be interesting. For me, When Your Time Has Come is their best ballad song since they did The Spirit Carries On. (Not counting the melancolic songs like Dissapear)
What do you think?

I don't even think that it's the best "ballad" on this disc. I prefer The X Aspect, A Life Left Behind, and Losing Faythe to it.

Chosen is the best and maybe the best since TSCO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jasc15 on March 23, 2016, 11:56:40 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 16, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 16, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: PixelDream on March 15, 2016, 07:25:16 PM
TA is the first DT album of which I'll make sure there's no one around when (if ever) I'm putting it on. It's just too embarrasing, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face when JLB sings 'people just don't have the time for music anymore'. And that's not even the cheesiest moment, far from it.
Opinions and all, but I just don't understand this at all.

If you're too embarrassed to listen to a particular type of music, why bother listening to it at all. 

I can understand this.  I've done almost all of my music listening alone, which makes it a bit awkward to listen to bands like DT in, let's say, mixed company.  My wife, for example.  I have subjected her to the entirety of SFAM, ACoS, Octavarium (song), and some of DT's other lengthy songs, but I don't feel the same as when listening by myself.  I'm not sure embarrassment is the right word, though it sometimes feels that way with certain lyric passages, or just lengthy ridiculous instrumental passages and I recoil a bit when I realize this music is not for everyone, as if I am listening to it for the first time through her ears with her tastes and opinions.  After DT, I'll put on something a bit more palatable like Pink Floyd or even Umphrey's McGee.  DT is a band I pretty much listen to alone, or with my one or two friends who are also fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on March 23, 2016, 03:17:35 PM
I know that feeling when showing someone DT for the first time and if they're not used to those long instrumentals I get embarrassed not because of music but because of myself, thinking something like: stupid, you should have played some other song :lol
I exposed one of my friends to DT (DT is now his favorite band) and he was only into metal so I played him A Nightmare to Remember and The Glass Prison. He was not ready for so long songs :P Fortunately, he kept listening to them and started to love longer songs, too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2016, 03:24:12 PM
I stopped caring what the person in my car thinks of my music a long time ago.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 10:12:01 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Totally? So in a DT song you are not looking for:

a. A catchy opening riff ala ATC Reprise?
b. An odd 15/8 time signature
c. A beautifully composed JP guitar solo.

;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on March 24, 2016, 10:14:58 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.
Same here, my alternate TA album ends with My Last Farewell, I think Our New World is okay at best but Hymn and title-track I would skip anyway.
And BTS, well, it's easily my least favorite ADTOE song and possibly bottom 10 of all DT studio album songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 10:23:27 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 10:12:01 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Totally? So in a DT song you are not looking for:

a. A catchy opening riff ala ATC Reprise?
b. An odd 15/8 time signature
c. A beautifully composed JP guitar solo.

;)

Plenty of other catchy opening riffs, odd time signatures and awesome solos in DT's extensive catalog to make me  not need to tolerate this song.


Quote from: Train of Naught on March 24, 2016, 10:14:58 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.
Same here, my alternate TA album ends with My Last Farewell, I think Our New World is okay at best but Hymn and title-track I would skip anyway.
And BTS, well, it's easily my least favorite ADTOE song and possibly bottom 10 of all DT studio album songs.

 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 24, 2016, 10:29:19 AM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM

I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Not meant to argue (it's taste, after all), but just by way of comparison, that, basically, has everything I look for in a DT song (except MP, and no, I'm not trying to start something) and nothing I don't. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2016, 10:40:37 AM
I personally don't get the love for ONW.  Not a bad song at al, but far from the best on the album for me.  Probably on the lower half if I were to rank the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 24, 2016, 11:27:22 AM
I really like ONW, but it's probably my least favourite song on the album. It is perfectly placed though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 24, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
If a few more people voice their displeasure for ONW, then it will be more controversial to like it.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 24, 2016, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Dear God.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 24, 2016, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 24, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
If a few more people voice their displeasure for ONW, then it will be more controversial to like it.  :lol

 :lol

I do think that should have ended the album though. 

My biggest complaint with TA is that it ends on a dud.  Not just TA (song) but the grouping of the last few tracks is my least favorite on the album.  All of them are in the bottom half with Whispers being my least favorite on the album. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 03:57:24 PM
Yeah, but the live shows have shown that TA (the song) was indeed written as some sort of encore. It works effectively as such. JP has said that when they wrote the album, they were really thinking of it as a staged show, which is why the album length is the way it is and why there are songs that are tailor-made for a live production (overture, Road to Revolution, Entracte, TA).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 04:09:07 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 24, 2016, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 24, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
If a few more people voice their displeasure for ONW, then it will be more controversial to like it.  :lol

 :lol

I do think that should have ended the album though. 

My biggest complaint with TA is that it ends on a dud.  Not just TA (song) but the grouping of the last few tracks is my least favorite on the album.  All of them are in the bottom half with Whispers being my least favorite on the album.

I agree... I rarely listen to the last few tracks. After The Walking Shadow, I lose interest... especially when Nafaryus begins to cry (laugh?).  Whispers on the Wind is the exception. I love that lil song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 24, 2016, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 24, 2016, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Dear God.

Amen.

There are other songs I love more on TA, but Our New World is one of the most bad ass straight forward songs they have done to date.  It rocks and is catchy as heck.  And with it being a rare example of them doing a "riff rock" song, where the keyboards are almost nowhere to be found, it is easily a song that could appeal to non-DT fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 24, 2016, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 24, 2016, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 24, 2016, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Dear God.

Amen.

There are other songs I love more on TA, but Our New World is one of the most bad ass straight forward songs they have done to date.  It rocks and is catchy as heck.  And with it being a rare example of them doing a "riff rock" song, where the keyboards are almost nowhere to be found, it is easily a song that could appeal to non-DT fans.

Yeah, it's actually a little frustrating for me because I wanted more of it. It's nice and concise, but maybe needed a pre-chorus part (transition to chorus is a little abrupt) or a 3rd verse. Nit-picky I know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 06:28:12 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on March 24, 2016, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 24, 2016, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on March 24, 2016, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Destiny Of Chaos on March 24, 2016, 08:54:38 AM
For me, ADToE ends with Breaking All Illusions. I don't acknowledge Beneath the Surface. Do not enjoy it at all.


I do not listen to Our New World. Totally not what I'm looking for in a DT song.

Dear God.

Amen.

There are other songs I love more on TA, but Our New World is one of the most bad ass straight forward songs they have done to date.  It rocks and is catchy as heck.  And with it being a rare example of them doing a "riff rock" song, where the keyboards are almost nowhere to be found, it is easily a song that could appeal to non-DT fans.

Yeah, it's actually a little frustrating for me because I wanted more of it. It's nice and concise, but maybe needed a pre-chorus part (transition to chorus is a little abrupt) or a 3rd verse. Nit-picky I know.

I think it is deliberately short because it is already preceded by 2 hours of music. JP must be thinking listener's / audience fatigue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 24, 2016, 06:31:03 PM
I think many songs on TA overall (especially Act II considering the 30 mins of room) could've been improved by extending them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 06:41:22 PM
It could improve on an individual song perspective, but overall listening experience would be worse. I think much of the more negative reaction to Disc 2 is listener fatigue, and that would only worsen if the songs are extended.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 24, 2016, 11:28:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 24, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
If a few more people voice their displeasure for ONW, then it will be more controversial to like it.  :lol

The prog hipster needle is in constant flux.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 25, 2016, 04:57:44 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 24, 2016, 06:41:22 PM
It could improve on an individual song perspective, but overall listening experience would be worse. I think much of the more negative reaction to Disc 2 is listener fatigue, and that would only worsen if the songs are extended.

Maybe so, but I would just be happy with more of TA. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 05:36:44 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 24, 2016, 11:28:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 24, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
If a few more people voice their displeasure for ONW, then it will be more controversial to like it.  :lol

The prog hipster needle is in constant flux.

If it stopped, then it wouldn't be progressive anymore, now would it? It would just become a dreadful monotony...like aor.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 05:46:20 AM
Almost as much of a dreadful monotony as your posts on music you don't like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 05:52:28 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 05:46:20 AM
Almost as much of a dreadful monotony as your posts on music you don't like.

 :lol  Irony is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 05:58:19 AM
Yeah, says the guy suggesting that people who listen to music you don't like need cochlear implants. ;) Prog Snob indeed.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 05:59:33 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 05:58:19 AM
Yeah, get back to me when you stop suggesting that people who listen to music you don't like need cochlear implants. ;) Prog Snob indeed.

Yes, because not liking DLR makes me a prog snob.  :lol  Silly boy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 06:03:03 AM
Just a plain old music snob then. Better? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 25, 2016, 06:03:16 AM
Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 06:04:42 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 06:03:03 AM
Just a plain old music snob then. Better? :biggrin:

I'll stipulate to that if you do.  ;)

Quote from: Enigmachine on March 25, 2016, 06:03:16 AM
Did I miss something?

The airing of grievances. We're a bit late on the Festivus front.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 06:46:51 AM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.

Trying to define what progressive rock is and should be is an exercise in futility. I think there are different characteristics that one could define as being progressive, but at the same time, I don't think it should be limited to a specific definition. I mentioned that a band not changing from one album to the next starts to become stale and shouldn't be labeled progressive, but I feel like I was a bit capricious saying that and didn't explain myself thoroughly. I was thinking of a band like AC/DC who put out the same album constantly. Granted there are no prog bands like that which I know of. Imagine Dream Theater always made albums that sounded just like Images and Words. As godlike as that album is, it would start to get monotonous after a while.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 06:46:51 AM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.

Trying to define what progressive rock is and should be is an exercise in futility. I think there are different characteristics that one could define as being progressive, but at the same time, I don't think it should be limited to a specific definition. I mentioned that a band not changing from one album to the next starts to become stale and shouldn't be labeled progressive, but I feel like I was a bit capricious saying that and didn't explain myself thoroughly. I was thinking of a band like AC/DC who put out the same album constantly. Granted there are no prog bands like that which I know of. Imagine Dream Theater always made albums that sounded just like Images and Words. As godlike as that album is, it would start to get monotonous after a while.

Yup, agreed, although I can think of a few bands that still manage to make amazing music despite not changing ever. Amorphis are one of my favorite bands, and their style has been basically the same for a full decade now, but it doesn't matter to me because they kick so much ass. Sometimes it's nice to know what you're getting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 09:02:41 AM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.
And that would be the correct definition.  I had having to pedantically explain this to newbies every couple of years, but "progressive rock" as a music genre is not about change.  It is about a genre of music that is very loosely defined by the type of characteristics you describe above.  "Progressive" as merely an adjective to describe a certain type of music would imply change, but that isn't what we mean when we are discussing the genre of progressive rock (or progressive metal). 

Anyhow, now that the noobs have been corrected, back on topic...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 25, 2016, 09:49:55 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 09:02:41 AM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.
And that would be the correct definition.  I had having to pedantically explain this to newbies every couple of years, but "progressive rock" as a music genre is not about change.  It is about a genre of music that is very loosely defined by the type of characteristics you describe above.  "Progressive" as merely an adjective to describe a certain type of music would imply change, but that isn't what we mean when we are discussing the genre of progressive rock (or progressive metal). 

Anyhow, now that the noobs have been corrected, back on topic...

I would have to contend with the"long song" though as a general characteristic of prog. I think long song is just one of the non-standard structures used in the genre.

So really for me, prog is just about non-standard structures. That's it. The strangeness factor is a product of the non-standardness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 25, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
I agree with the past 3 posts. Saying progressive rock is about the music progressing is like saying hard rock is only rock that's hard to play. :lol

(Also it peeves me when people try to distinguish a difference between progressive rock and prog. I'm pretty sure that's just a made up thing.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 10:31:55 AM
Quote from: Implode on March 25, 2016, 10:27:06 AM
(Also it peeves me when people try to distinguish a difference between progressive rock and prog. I'm pretty sure that's just a made up thing.)

It is.  But I think what people are trying to say is that "prog" refers to the genre, while "progressive rock" means "rock music" (n.) that is "progressive" (adj., meaning changing or evolving) in nature.  I'm fine with the distinction because I think it is correct, and if that's how people want to make sense of the two different things, that's fine.  But it is usually understood (or least should be) that the term "progressive rock" usually refers to the genre, and that "prog" is just a shorthand version of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Implode on March 25, 2016, 10:33:57 AM
I suppose that's fair.

I really do wish that genres were clear cut and specific, but really...they aren't and neither are the songs categorized by them. They work more as descriptors than clean-cut boxes you can drop songs or artists into.

That's probably the most important thing about music I've learned over the past 10 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 10:36:29 AM
This is where genre classifications and definitions become trivial to me. I couldn't care less about whether an album is progressive or not, or the prog vs progressive argument. I can't say that the progressiveness of TA crossed my mind or was a factor while judging whether I liked it or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 25, 2016, 11:05:42 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 10:36:29 AM
This is where genre classifications and definitions become trivial to me. I couldn't care less about whether an album is progressive or not, or the prog vs progressive argument. I can't say that the progressiveness of TA crossed my mind or was a factor while judging whether I liked it or not.

Just like a cyborg or a robot.



*Throw poo* ;D


I kid, I kid!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 11:27:08 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on March 25, 2016, 10:36:29 AM
This is where genre classifications and definitions become trivial to me. I couldn't care less about whether an album is progressive or not, or the prog vs progressive argument. I can't say that the progressiveness of TA crossed my mind or was a factor while judging whether I liked it or not.
For the most part, same here.  But it becomes relevant when people try to argue, "Dream Theater aren't 'progressive metal' because they haven't changed their sound!" 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 25, 2016, 11:30:41 AM
You say Tomato, I say Tomato...........
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 25, 2016, 11:44:22 AM
I agree with everything that bosky said.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 25, 2016, 12:46:14 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 25, 2016, 09:49:55 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 09:02:41 AM
Quote from: TheOutlawXanadu on March 25, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
I always thought of progressive rock as being rock music with long songs, non-standard song structures, and a little bit of strangeness. I don't think a band necessarily has to change with every album they release, or anything like that, to be considered progressive. In other words, I think of a more concrete style than I do a philosophical approach to songwriting and evolution, if that makes sense.
And that would be the correct definition.  I had having to pedantically explain this to newbies every couple of years, but "progressive rock" as a music genre is not about change.  It is about a genre of music that is very loosely defined by the type of characteristics you describe above.  "Progressive" as merely an adjective to describe a certain type of music would imply change, but that isn't what we mean when we are discussing the genre of progressive rock (or progressive metal). 

Anyhow, now that the noobs have been corrected, back on topic...

I would have to contend with the"long song" though as a general characteristic of prog. I think long song is just one of the non-standard structures used in the genre.

So really for me, prog is just about non-standard structures. That's it. The strangeness factor is a product of the non-standardness.

Agreed. Long songs are not a necessary characteristic of progressive rock. There are prog songs that are short, and there are non-prog bands that have long songs. That's one of the mistakes people make when defining prog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on March 25, 2016, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 11:27:08 AM
For the most part, same here.  But it becomes relevant when people try to argue, "Dream Theater aren't 'progressive metal' because they haven't changed their sound!"

And when those people light up their "But, they aren't progressive!!" torch and start this same tired argument, you know what you tell them?

"No u."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2016, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on March 25, 2016, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 11:27:08 AM
For the most part, same here.  But it becomes relevant when people try to argue, "Dream Theater aren't 'progressive metal' because they haven't changed their sound!"

And when those people light up their "But, they aren't progressive!!" torch and start this same tired argument, you know what you tell them?

"No u."

Wow. Now that's progressive!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on March 25, 2016, 01:36:35 PM
Quote from: TAC on March 25, 2016, 01:27:51 PM
Quote from: Sir GuitarCozmo on March 25, 2016, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 11:27:08 AM
For the most part, same here.  But it becomes relevant when people try to argue, "Dream Theater aren't 'progressive metal' because they haven't changed their sound!"

And when those people light up their "But, they aren't progressive!!" torch and start this same tired argument, you know what you tell them?

"No u."

Wow. Now that's prog!

FTFY
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 02:02:04 PM
Nah, I instead opt to blow people's minds by saying something like:  "Hey, did you know Ron Jeremy is in a Sam Kinison video?  True story."  They never see it coming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 25, 2016, 02:12:30 PM
Wow. Now that is a wild thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sir GuitarCozmo on March 25, 2016, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 02:02:04 PM
They never see it coming.

Something Ron Jeremy has probably been able to say many times.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DragonAttack on March 25, 2016, 03:38:33 PM
First, I was going to say that I guess 'The Wall' wasn't progressive due to the short songs......and then I saw the Ron Jeremy listing as well, but he doesn't have that tattoo, and then I simply spewed my coffee on the last comment :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 25, 2016, 05:08:58 PM
But if you are trying to look like you have metal cred in a video full of some of the biggest rock stars, it's not hard to put on a fake tat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Wither on March 25, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
You know, I think The Ministry of Lost Souls is the best song Dream Theater has ever written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on March 25, 2016, 11:17:29 PM
Quote from: Wither on March 25, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
You know, I think The Ministry of Lost Souls is the best song Dream Theater has ever written.

Now you're just trying TOO hard to be controversial!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Wither on March 25, 2016, 11:19:58 PM
I wish. But that is the truth for me and I stand by it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chaossystem on March 26, 2016, 02:30:12 AM
I was only half-serious.

But a lot of people like that song, so it's not really all that unusual to have that opinion or preference.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 26, 2016, 04:51:45 AM
I wouldn't call it the *best ever*, but I love that song (save the meandering solo section stuck in the middle) and I'm surprised it took so much criticism.

It's somber, melanchonic, solemn, it has an excellent buildup and a memorable chorus... and the following part is nothing but shivers of emotion:

I was the one who would not abandon you
Even in death I was the one who would not leave you

I used my freedom to protect you
And all the while direct you
Do you remember me this time?
Even in death I gave you life
I gave you life

When they played it live, it was gorgeous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on March 26, 2016, 05:37:46 AM
It used to be my favorite DT song and I remember I couldn't understand why so many people here don't like it. Yes, instrumental part drags a bit but it's great nonetheless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 26, 2016, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: Wither on March 25, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
You know, I think The Ministry of Lost Souls is the best song Dream Theater has ever written.
When reading your "Food For Thought" thread, I mistakenly assumed you preferred their heavier, angrier songs (like "The Dark Eternal Night" or "The Glass Prison"). Yet, this one is your favourite, and your name/picture/signature is "Wither". Guess I was wrong :P

Whatever happened to that thread? It was getting interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on March 26, 2016, 08:02:17 AM
Really? I thought it was the most disgusting thread on this forum ever since I joined. I didn't read through all of it but what I've read was basically him/her cussing at authorities, pushing little children (with their fully automatics :neverusethis:) and talking about burning down the school, all for the sake of being an edgy teenager.

I know they were all fake/made up conversations, like he/she is well familiar with, but this one just wasn't appropriate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 26, 2016, 08:07:10 AM
Quote from: DragonAttack on March 25, 2016, 03:38:33 PM
First, I was going to say that I guess 'The Wall' wasn't progressive due to the short songs......and then I saw the Ron Jeremy listing as well, but he doesn't have that tattoo, and then I simply spewed my coffee on the last comment :lol

Prog doesn't always mean long songs. That's an amateur way to define prog. Sure, it's a quality some songs have but it's not ubiquitous. It also defines a lot of power metal songs, classical music, and jazz. Progressive rock is music that has no boundaries and creates its own identity so any definition is going to be shortsighted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SebastianPratesi on March 26, 2016, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: Train of Naught on March 26, 2016, 08:02:17 AM
Really? I thought it was the most disgusting thread on this forum ever since I joined. I didn't read through all of it but what I've read was basically him/her cussing at authorities, pushing little children (with their fully automatics :neverusethis:) and talking about burning down the school, all for the sake of being an edgy teenager.

I know they were all fake/made up conversations, like he/she is well familiar with, but this one just wasn't appropriate.
I see what you did there :P

And yeah, the thread started that way, but then Wither calmed down, and some of us got to talk about our experiences in Highschool / College (which to me was interesting, because College in other parts of the world is different to how it is here).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Wither on March 26, 2016, 10:33:41 AM
Quote from: Tomislav95 on March 26, 2016, 05:37:46 AM
It used to be my favorite DT song and I remember I couldn't understand why so many people here don't like it. Yes, instrumental part drags a bit but it's great nonetheless.

It's simply an awesome transition. I especially love Petrucci's vocals on: "A burden to my soul," and "Drowning in my past."

Also, the second verse: "He will choose the only way, to rid her of her pain," when Petrucci's electric comes in and elongates.

Quote from: SebastianPratesi on March 26, 2016, 07:16:31 AM
Quote from: Wither on March 25, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
You know, I think The Ministry of Lost Souls is the best song Dream Theater has ever written.
When reading your "Food For Thought" thread, I mistakenly assumed you preferred their heavier, angrier songs (like "The Dark Eternal Night" or "The Glass Prison"). Yet, this one is your favourite, and your name/picture/signature is "Wither". Guess I was wrong :P

Whatever happened to that thread? It was getting interesting.

Actually, heavy songs are alright, but I'd prefer songs like Ministry, Best of Times, and those heart wrenching songs, though I especially love In the Presence of Enemies!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 22, 2016, 08:34:01 AM
Having seen them again in Boston the other day, here's a maybe controversial opinion: I really hope they ditch the backing tracks for the next tour, or at least heavily curtail them. For me a DT concert is all about hearing what each musician is playing, but with TA, most of the time I couldn't tell what JR was actually playing and what was backing track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2016, 08:54:18 AM
I would also like for them to ditch backing/click tracks, and just play their music.  If they are a little faster or a little slower one night, that's OK.  If something spontaneous happens, that's great.

They've put on some outstanding presentations with that stuff, but I would like to see a slight reversion to the old school a little.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 22, 2016, 09:13:40 AM
Without seeing the new show to compare, I will say I agree with that.  I'm all about the "live" feel to a show so if that means less pumped in music, more spontaneity, different pacing then I am all for that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 22, 2016, 10:15:30 PM
I agree, especially now that we've got confirmation that the light shows are still done the old way and are almost entirely independent from the tempo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 22, 2016, 11:52:04 AM
Sorry to necro this thread up, but man, I just got a direct comparison of two renderings of 6:00

https://youtu.be/KB1bbsxYiVM?t=208  (5 years in a LIVEtime)

https://youtu.be/6FLuOL-Kn2U?t=216 (LALP)

Bass, where art thou these days? JM playing that line is so fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 22, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
Man, I remember thinking the vocals on 5YIALT were pretty bad, but what the heck is up with that Emperor Palpatine on Luna Park??? LOL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 22, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 22, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
Man, I remember thinking the vocals on 5YIALT were pretty bad, but what the heck is up with that Emperor Palpatine on Luna Park??? LOL
   ???  Are you talking about the acoustic section with the strings?
Who are you referring to as Palpatine?  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on November 22, 2016, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on November 22, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
Quote from: Skeever on November 22, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
Man, I remember thinking the vocals on 5YIALT were pretty bad, but what the heck is up with that Emperor Palpatine on Luna Park??? LOL
   ???  Are you talking about the acoustic section with the strings?
Who are you referring to as Palpatine?  :rollin
Did you listen to the clip rumborak linked to? Right around 3:36, he sings "coming outside" in such a guttural way. Sounds totally like Palpatine! 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 22, 2016, 02:30:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 22, 2016, 11:52:04 AM
Sorry to necro this thread up, but man, I just got a direct comparison of two renderings of 6:00

https://youtu.be/KB1bbsxYiVM?t=208  (5 years in a LIVEtime)

https://youtu.be/6FLuOL-Kn2U?t=216 (LALP)

Bass, where art thou these days? JM playing that line is so fantastic.

I didn't notice your ending comment, and when I click both links my first thought was how amazing JM's tone and volume was and how he's essentially nixed in the LALP one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on November 23, 2016, 11:51:07 AM
Quote from: rumborak on November 22, 2016, 11:52:04 AM
Sorry to necro this thread up, but man, I just got a direct comparison of two renderings of 6:00

https://youtu.be/KB1bbsxYiVM?t=208  (5 years in a LIVEtime)

https://youtu.be/6FLuOL-Kn2U?t=216 (LALP)

Bass, where art thou these days? JM playing that line is so fantastic.
I thought the same. Plus Labrie's vocals.


Quote from: Adami on November 22, 2016, 02:30:47 PM
I didn't notice your ending comment, and when I click both links my first thought was how amazing JM's tone and volume was and how he's essentially nixed in the LALP one.
I also didn't read his comment and was amazed hearing bass in DT for a long time. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rodni Demental on November 24, 2016, 05:45:51 PM
*edit* <wrong thread> My bad!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 24, 2016, 06:15:12 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 22, 2016, 11:52:04 AM
Sorry to necro this thread up, but man, I just got a direct comparison of two renderings of 6:00

https://youtu.be/KB1bbsxYiVM?t=208  (5 years in a LIVEtime)

https://youtu.be/6FLuOL-Kn2U?t=216 (LALP)

Bass, where art thou these days? JM playing that line is so fantastic.

That bass line is so good, ashame that it's pretty much gone in LALP.

Also I've said this in the past but Ibanez Petrucci is best Petrucci.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on November 24, 2016, 11:54:43 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 22, 2016, 08:54:18 AM
I would also like for them to ditch backing/click tracks, and just play their music.  If they are a little faster or a little slower one night, that's OK.  If something spontaneous happens, that's great.

They've put on some outstanding presentations with that stuff, but I would like to see a slight reversion to the old school a little.

I completely agree 100%
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on November 25, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
I used to dislike the first disc of 6DOIT.  I always thought TGP was fairly good, but the rest were just blah.

Just recently, Blind Faith and Disappear have really grown on me a ton.  Surprised I didn't like Disappear at first...it reminds me of Radiohead a lot, and I love them.  I'm still kind of iffy on TGD.

I don't know if that's as much a controversial opinion as it is repentance for some of my earlier posts on this thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 25, 2016, 08:06:39 PM
Quote from: jsbru on November 25, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
I used to dislike the first disc of 6DOIT.  I always thought TGP was fairly good, but the rest were just blah.
 

I took to Disc 1 right away, even loving TGP. That said, TGP has not aged well for me. At all. And I've always considered Disc 2 a waste of time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jsbru on November 25, 2016, 08:13:12 PM
Heh...now that is controversial!

My most controversial DT opinion is still that Metropolis Pt. 2 is in their bottom half of albums.

I still consider most of their bottom half of albums to be pretty good, but it is what it is.  I enjoy listening to it from time to time, but it's not one I regularly play.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 25, 2016, 09:22:41 PM
The Astonishing is the best album ever done by a recent band.

"People just don't have the time for music anymore, and no one seems to care"....is the perfect quote because it seems like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 26, 2016, 05:18:53 AM
I have and make plenty of time for music but not for TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 26, 2016, 12:57:51 PM
I enjoy the concept and the lyrics as well. Plus the music is lovely. Especially Act of Faythe. And the end to Begin Again, which I call the Earthbound outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on November 26, 2016, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 26, 2016, 05:18:53 AM
I have and make plenty of time for music but not for TA.

Feel the same, such a big and different project but not my thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on November 27, 2016, 01:02:16 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on November 26, 2016, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 26, 2016, 05:18:53 AM
I have and make plenty of time for music but not for TA.
Feel the same, such a big and different project but not my thing.
Same here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on November 27, 2016, 01:35:47 AM
Quote from: ? on November 27, 2016, 01:02:16 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on November 26, 2016, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 26, 2016, 05:18:53 AM
I have and make plenty of time for music but not for TA.
Feel the same, such a big and different project but not my thing.
Same here.

Yeah, i feel the same.

I respect them for attempting something so huge and different, this late in their career.
It just doesn't really do it for me, apart from a couple of songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 27, 2016, 03:22:53 AM
I listened to The Astonishing last night whilst playing " Fink's Slaughterhouse " on Borderlands 2.

It's a long old challenge and Disc 1 lasted about the same time as the whole challenge :)

Still enjoy the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 27, 2016, 10:27:18 AM
Quote from: red barchetta on November 26, 2016, 09:55:02 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 26, 2016, 05:18:53 AM
I have and make plenty of time for music but not for TA.

Feel the same, such a big and different project but not my thing.

I can't decide if I don't like the concept or the music/lyric of album itself. I suppose I can't feel the story so it takes my enjoyment even musics are alright.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 27, 2016, 05:57:13 PM
The thing is that it's just too much. Taken in short spurts the album is better but taken as one piece of music it's exhausting, it doesn't breathe. Honestly it's just not for me but I do anticipate a new DT album whenever it does get released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 01, 2016, 10:42:34 AM
Somehow, I just can't like an album when the first 12 tracks don't even begin to appeal to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tony From Long Island on December 01, 2016, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on December 01, 2016, 10:42:34 AM
Somehow, I just can't like an album when the first 12 tracks don't even begin to appeal to me.


We may differ on our definition of "Classic,"  but we seem to agree that The Astonishing is not a classic    :-)

Once I found the story laughable, I just couldn't get into it, no matter how much I tried.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 02, 2016, 09:17:25 AM
Couldn't care less about the story.  When I listen to bands, I'm a fan of music.  If I want a story, I'll watch a movie or play a video game.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on December 02, 2016, 04:05:37 PM
Well there are cases where understanding the story or the concept behind the album helps you enjoy it even more. Like Remedy Lane for example or BE or any concept album with an interesting theme. The concept of TA doesn't interest me at all and the fact that it was inspired by Game of Thones and Star Wars just makes it harder, you know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on December 02, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Might not have been inspired by GoT but I recall when I first read the story while following along listening to the album, my friend and I both couldn't resist some joking about the GoT similarities.  But I'd imagine I coud find similarities on many other fantasy stories as well based in a feudalistic time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on December 02, 2016, 09:11:49 PM
If it wasn't for Game of Thrones, The Beatles would not exist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 02, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Never mind that JP / DT have specifically mentioned those as influences on TA in multiple interviews.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DreamerTV on December 03, 2016, 02:09:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 02, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Never mind that JP / DT have specifically mentioned those as influences on TA in multiple interviews.

Never mind influenced and inspired don't mean the same thing  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 03, 2016, 03:17:45 AM
Quote from: DreamerTV on December 03, 2016, 02:09:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 02, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Never mind that JP / DT have specifically mentioned those as influences on TA in multiple interviews.

Never mind influenced and inspired don't mean the same thing  :P

YOU DON'T MEAN THE SAME THING!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on December 03, 2016, 03:32:35 AM
"Regarding the inspiration for "The Astonishing" story, Rudess said: "Well, I think the inspiration comes from things like 'Star Wars' and 'The Lord Of The Rings' and 'Game Of Thrones' and all these kind of fantasy, sci-fi stories. And it's something that certainly John, who wrote the story, is into and all of us could really relate to."


"I took inspiration from many things outside of the rock album genre. Everything from Tolkien to Star Wars to Jesus Christ Superstar as inspiration on how to approach something of this scope. Of course I am a huge fan of both of the albums you mentioned and The Wall is one of my all time favorites." - JP
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 03, 2016, 04:00:49 AM
There were also several other interviews where JP specifically mentioned them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on December 03, 2016, 07:32:41 AM
Quote from: DreamerTV on December 03, 2016, 02:09:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 02, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Never mind that JP / DT have specifically mentioned those as influences on TA in multiple interviews.

Never mind influenced and inspired don't mean the same thing  :P
I'm curious, what would be the difference between being influenced and being inspired by something?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 03, 2016, 09:12:58 AM
I'd daresay that influence would mark a stronger connection to the work.

For example, DT after SFAM entertained the idea of doing a "world music" album with song in styles from different parts of the world, that would be the inspiration, the world music. Never Enough on the other hand is influenced by Muse because of the callback in atmosphere to Stochkolm Syndrome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 03, 2016, 09:19:46 AM
A world music album would certainly be interesting.

I feel like it'd sound like Shpongle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 03, 2016, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: noxon on December 03, 2016, 03:32:35 AM
"Regarding the inspiration for "The Astonishing" story, Rudess said: "Well, I think the inspiration comes from things like 'Star Wars' and 'The Lord Of The Rings' and 'Game Of Thrones' and all these kind of fantasy, sci-fi stories. And it's something that certainly John, who wrote the story, is into and all of us could really relate to."

How is this even a discussion. The GoT influence on TA is so in your face.

A much more interesting discussion is how much influence Frozen had on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 03, 2016, 11:08:12 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 03, 2016, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: noxon on December 03, 2016, 03:32:35 AM
"Regarding the inspiration for "The Astonishing" story, Rudess said: "Well, I think the inspiration comes from things like 'Star Wars' and 'The Lord Of The Rings' and 'Game Of Thrones' and all these kind of fantasy, sci-fi stories. And it's something that certainly John, who wrote the story, is into and all of us could really relate to."

How is this even a discussion. The GoT influence on TA is so in your face.

A much more interesting discussion is how much influence Frozen had on the album.

It probably got ingrained in his head from having to hear that song a lot...Hahaha.


It's David Campbell's arrangements that make it sound so Disney.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on December 03, 2016, 02:17:28 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 03, 2016, 09:19:46 AM
A world music album would certainly be interesting.

I feel like it'd sound like Shpongle.

Or ENYA :puke:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on December 03, 2016, 03:14:59 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 03, 2016, 04:00:49 AM
There were also several other interviews where JP specifically mentioned them.
Yep, I also read some interviews where he said he was influenced by them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DreamerTV on December 04, 2016, 04:38:05 AM
Quote from: Mladen on December 03, 2016, 07:32:41 AM
Quote from: DreamerTV on December 03, 2016, 02:09:51 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 02, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 02, 2016, 04:15:40 PM
Well, good, because it wasn't inspired by Game of Thrones or Star Wars.

Never mind that JP / DT have specifically mentioned those as influences on TA in multiple interviews.

Never mind influenced and inspired don't mean the same thing  :P
I'm curious, what would be the difference between being influenced and being inspired by something?

They're just different level of connection.
Inspired is when you're actually using some elements because are there in another specific work (like, in putting in a character i took inspiration by Sansa Stark character).
Influence is something less concrete, it's more about the idea of a style or a genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 04, 2016, 05:03:33 AM
Influence can have negative and positive connotations. However, it's rare you hear someone use the word inspire to reflect something bad. I also think influence is more direct. Inspiration is passive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on December 05, 2016, 03:58:47 AM
Inspire = gave you the idea to do something
Influence = changed the actual contents of whatever it is you're doing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on December 05, 2016, 06:32:46 AM
In the positive sense, I think they are interchangeable words. Some dictionaries list them as synonyms.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 05, 2016, 08:58:13 AM
I think "inspire" has an aspect of "giving motivation to do X" that "influence" doesn't have. You say "this event inspired me to write a book", you don't say "this event influenced me to write a book".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on December 06, 2016, 04:16:20 AM
But him reading the books influenced the story he wrote maybe? I don't know, I still haven't listened to TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on December 06, 2016, 09:33:56 AM
My main gripe, which most DT fans disagree with, is that after Train of Thought, the songs lack soulfulness. What I admired about Dream Theater from the early days through ToT was the band's ability to be virtuoso musicians, but still craft a lot of texture and soul, and breathing room in songs, and make it sound warm. To my ear at least, that started to erode a bit after Jordan joined, and slowly crept out of the music (again, to my ear) with Octavarium. DT hasn't quite been the same to me, since.

I know DT fans will shout examples of soulfulness and warm atmosphere post-TOT. I get it. But it doesn't sound nearly as authentic as it once did. DT to me is more clinical now, more sterile. And I'm not sure what caused it, honestly. Jordan is amazing, and technically, is a master performer. But it'd be unfair of me to blame him. It's just the overall shift the band has had to my ear over the years.

It's an unpopular opinion, and I share it not to rankle the fan base or start any arguments. But the sound just hasn't been there for me over the last several releases. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 06, 2016, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: AnybodyListening.net on December 06, 2016, 09:33:56 AM
My main gripe, which most DT fans disagree with, is that after Train of Thought, the songs lack soulfulness. What I admired about Dream Theater from the early days through ToT was the band's ability to be virtuoso musicians, but still craft a lot of texture and soul, and breathing room in songs, and make it sound warm. To my ear at least, that started to erode a bit after Jordan joined, and slowly crept out of the music (again, to my ear) with Octavarium. DT hasn't quite been the same to me, since.

I know DT fans will shout examples of soulfulness and warm atmosphere post-TOT. I get it. But it doesn't sound nearly as authentic as it once did. DT to me is more clinical now, more sterile. And I'm not sure what caused it, honestly. Jordan is amazing, and technically, is a master performer. But it'd be unfair of me to blame him. It's just the overall shift the band has had to my ear over the years.

It's an unpopular opinion, and I share it not to rankle the fan base or start any arguments. But the sound just hasn't been there for me over the last several releases.

Very thoughtful and well worded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on December 06, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
I wish DT would stop trying to cop a certain "style" and just wear normal clothes like every other progressive metal band these days. Just saw JLB post his new clothing line endorsement on his wall, and I think it looks really silly and dated. Surely metal fans realize by now that there's nothing cool about a guy wearing skulls and pentagrams on his pants.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15319294_1322790684429818_7905567938476644145_n.jpg?oh=6c50d32ec5fdc0c6e97d1361b2ef1201&oe=58B63115)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 06, 2016, 01:29:55 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 06, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
I wish DT would stop trying to cop a certain "style" and just wear normal clothes like every other progressive metal band these days. Just saw JLB post his new clothing line endorsement on his wall, and I think it looks really silly and dated. Surely metal fans realize by now that there's nothing cool about a guy wearing skulls and pentagrams on his pants.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15319294_1322790684429818_7905567938476644145_n.jpg?oh=6c50d32ec5fdc0c6e97d1361b2ef1201&oe=58B63115)

 :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 06, 2016, 01:48:11 PM
That is so bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on December 06, 2016, 02:14:57 PM
While I wouldnt wear that (and I am not a fashion person) I also don't find anything wrong about that attire from a musician.  Sometimes musicians wear some weird clothes, but I don't find these to be weird or odd or out of touch at all, just seems to be his style which works fine for him IMO. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on December 06, 2016, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 06, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
I wish DT would stop trying to cop a certain "style" and just wear normal clothes like every other progressive metal band these days. Just saw JLB post his new clothing line endorsement on his wall, and I think it looks really silly and dated. Surely metal fans realize by now that there's nothing cool about a guy wearing skulls and pentagrams on his pants.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15319294_1322790684429818_7905567938476644145_n.jpg?oh=6c50d32ec5fdc0c6e97d1361b2ef1201&oe=58B63115)

Yep
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:06:56 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on December 06, 2016, 02:14:57 PM
While I wouldnt wear that (and I am not a fashion person) I also don't find anything wrong about that attire from a musician.  Sometimes musicians wear some weird clothes, but I don't find these to be weird or odd or out of touch at all, just seems to be his style which works fine for him IMO.

Pretty much this. I've seen some pretty obscure looking outfits on metal bands. This is not something so far out there. That shirt is pretty damn cool though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 06, 2016, 08:09:36 PM
I noticed a similar-looking (but not identical) wardrobe at the Reno show and thought it was pretty cool.  Not sure why people have an issue with how somebody chooses to dress, as long as there isn't anything inappropriate about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:30:51 PM
Seriously. These people obviously haven't checked out some of the outfits on black metal bands. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:30:51 PM
Seriously. These people obviously haven't checked out some of the outfits on black metal bands. :lol

Oh we have. And we make fun of them too.

There's only a few musicians who can truly pull off weird outfits (today). Kiss, Rob Halford, Coz, and a few others. It's a short list though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:30:51 PM
Seriously. These people obviously haven't checked out some of the outfits on black metal bands. :lol

Oh we have. And we make fun of them too.

There's only a few musicians who can truly pull off weird outfits (today). Kiss, Rob Halford, Coz, and a few others. It's a short list though.

I was just thinking Manowar and that's it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:41:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:30:51 PM
Seriously. These people obviously haven't checked out some of the outfits on black metal bands. :lol

Oh we have. And we make fun of them too.

There's only a few musicians who can truly pull off weird outfits (today). Kiss, Rob Halford, Coz, and a few others. It's a short list though.

I was just thinking Manowar and that's it.

Forgot Manowar were still around. But yea, them too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:44:30 PM
(https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/ultragoat/bn.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 06, 2016, 09:08:51 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:41:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 06, 2016, 08:32:14 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 06, 2016, 08:30:51 PM
Seriously. These people obviously haven't checked out some of the outfits on black metal bands. :lol

Oh we have. And we make fun of them too.

There's only a few musicians who can truly pull off weird outfits (today). Kiss, Rob Halford, Coz, and a few others. It's a short list though.

I was just thinking Manowar and that's it.

Forgot Manowar were still around. But yea, them too.

I wouldn't say that Manowar really pull it off.  I'm going to break my rule and just say that what they wear looks stupid.  And it always has.  :lol

















































:kvlt:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 07, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
He's a performer on stage, I don't find nothing wrong with the outfit.

I don't like the pic *itself*, James looks weird, the photographer could have really asked for another pose / angle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on December 07, 2016, 03:34:56 AM
Manowar do pull it off. At least the stuff they wear post 80s homoerotic phase that every metal band seemed to be in for the most part at that time.

Shit like that (NSFW), https://www.deathmetal.org/wp-content/uploads/manowar-1-700x394.jpg , is not appropriate unless you're a male stripper imo. If you have to write NSFW when linking anything metal and the nsfw part is not women or gore, you're doing it wrong lol! Their more leather/biker looks is fine, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 07, 2016, 07:12:09 AM
Quote from: abydos on December 07, 2016, 03:34:56 AM
  If you have to write NSFW when linking anything metal and the nsfw part is not women or gore, you're doing it wrong lol!
:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 08:02:18 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
He's a performer on stage, I don't find nothing wrong with the outfit.

I don't like the pic *itself*, James looks weird, the photographer could have really asked for another pose / angle.

For me it's the hair actually.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on December 07, 2016, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 08:02:18 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
He's a performer on stage, I don't find nothing wrong with the outfit.

I don't like the pic *itself*, James looks weird, the photographer could have really asked for another pose / angle.

For me it's the hair actually.

It goes with the style of music I guess but he would look much better wearing a shirt with jeans.  I guess he has to look mean :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
It reminds me of 80s The Cure in an odd way :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CB on December 07, 2016, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: red barchetta on December 07, 2016, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 08:02:18 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 07, 2016, 01:18:55 AM
He's a performer on stage, I don't find nothing wrong with the outfit.

I don't like the pic *itself*, James looks weird, the photographer could have really asked for another pose / angle.

For me it's the hair actually.

It goes with the style of music I guess but he would look much better wearing a shirt with jeans.  I guess he has to look mean :lol

If he tried to look mean in that photo he totally failed :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on December 07, 2016, 03:00:01 PM
Aqua Net called. It wants the classic bottles stolen by some dude in Canada returned...

 :rollin

No disrespect to the Pirate! But gotta call it when you see it!  :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on December 07, 2016, 04:31:58 PM
If you can't say something nice, erm .... I love James' voice a very large amount!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on December 07, 2016, 04:57:54 PM
Quote from: Skeever on December 06, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
I wish DT would stop trying to cop a certain "style" and just wear normal clothes like every other progressive metal band these days. Just saw JLB post his new clothing line endorsement on his wall, and I think it looks really silly and dated. Surely metal fans realize by now that there's nothing cool about a guy wearing skulls and pentagrams on his pants.

*snip awful pic*

lol wtf was he thinking

He usually looks classier than that in the MM era, even when (in the 2nd pic) he chooses a rockish look. Look at this:

(https://www.arjenlucassen.com/ay8/wp-content/uploads/musician01_500x500_James-Labrie-300x300.jpg)

or this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/James_LaBrie_-_02.jpg/250px-James_LaBrie_-_02.jpg)

That endorsement is the worst I've ever seen him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 07:22:48 PM
What year was Emotrucci? Maybe they're returning to their roots.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on December 07, 2016, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 07:22:48 PM
What year was Emotrucci? Maybe they're returning to their roots.

Well they're clearly dying their roots at least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 07, 2016, 08:07:23 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 07, 2016, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 07:22:48 PM
What year was Emotrucci? Maybe they're returning to their roots.

Well they're clearly dying their roots at least.

The root of all evil... or Rooty Giuliani?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on December 07, 2016, 08:13:27 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on December 07, 2016, 08:07:23 PM
Quote from: Adami on December 07, 2016, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 07, 2016, 07:22:48 PM
What year was Emotrucci? Maybe they're returning to their roots.

Well they're clearly dying their roots at least.

The root of all evil... or Rooty Giuliani?

I think they'll combine two of the 12 step songs into "These Dying Roots"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 07, 2016, 08:18:36 PM
I'm trapped inside this Rootavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on December 07, 2016, 08:28:46 PM
I am Grootavarium
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: matthewmatt on December 09, 2016, 12:33:52 AM
Personally, I have a bigger problem with the fact he's endorsing clothes (dude, that's the spirit of rock n roll  :metal ) than with how the outfit looks like. Yep, the attire might be a bit dated and he looks a bit hooker-ish there (which is just as much the photographer's fault if not more so), but I like the duds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 07, 2017, 09:24:53 AM
Random thought: I think they should have chosen the "Dream Theater" album title for TA actually, and given DT12 some other name. I feel TA is much closer to representing what DT are about than DT12.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 07, 2017, 09:50:35 AM
Storywise it doesn't make much sense, it would rob also the album of the ultimate climax, the title being told at the very end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 07, 2017, 10:40:01 AM
Illumination Theory would have been a good title to DT12.  I think that album is a good representation of what DT is all about, so I'm ok with it being self titled. The bummer thing is, my DT12 CD disappeared over a year ago and I still haven't bought a new one. It's on of my fav albums of all time and I am still looking for my copy hoping it will turn up somewhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 07, 2017, 11:54:34 AM
I&W Anniversary tour is indeed smart move for gaining attention again by fans but I feel not smart move for DT itself regarding their current musical presentation. Even tuning down doesn't help James seems not happy at all (plus he was sick during the tour). Mangini has lots of critisms about not playing certain and significant parts of the songs. Even others seem bored and tired as well in some videos.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 07, 2017, 12:44:08 PM
At my show James was on fire and the half step downtuning helped him to not choke on impossible vocal lines.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DougMasters on March 07, 2017, 04:29:01 PM
Im not sure if this qualifies as controversial or not but ive never liked Jordan Rudess' playing. He is super talented. Otherworldly talented. I know this to be true. But i dont find his lines or his solos memorable at all and i beyond a lick or two on scenes 2 and SDOIT i can never remember anything hes done that i can hum or remember.

I always kick myself for not enjoying his playing because hes so talented. But I cant fake it. I just dont enjoy him musically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on March 08, 2017, 05:23:38 AM
Yeah, I always thought that Jordan's technique is incredible, but he has some shortcomings in the "taste" department. His solos are often a case of hit or miss, too many notes, not melodic enough, etc. His playing is great on SFAM and SDOIT, but the wah-wah guitar sounding leads from the ToT era (check out the first part of his keyboard solo in Live at Budokan, for instance, horrible) were the first red flag for me. His continuum solos were also usually pretty bad. I also never cared for his plastic organ sound, especially since I knew that if Derek was still in the band, he'd use a real Hammond, which would make a world of difference (Jordan remedied this somewhat on The Astonishing, where he uses a real Leslie for his organs, as far as I can hear). I also really liked his playing on ADTOE.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 08, 2017, 06:10:10 AM
+1

I've listened to a few of his piano pieces on Youtube and whatnot. And they usually start out nice then just go into piano shred and it loses the melody and the feeling.

I think the last time I enjoyed one of his shred solos on an album was on that one song on the Astonishing - but then it's so out of the blue that it's welcome.

I forgot what song it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 08, 2017, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2017, 06:10:10 AM
+1

I've listened to a few of his piano pieces on Youtube and whatnot. And they usually start out nice then just go into piano shred and it loses the melody and the feeling.

Completely agree. I think I posted something along these lines in the overplaying thread.

That said I think he fits in DT very well but I can't enjoy Jordan's playing outside of DT. He has the ability to write some incredible melodies and music but can you please tone down the shredding?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 09, 2017, 04:47:21 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2017, 06:10:10 AM
I think the last time I enjoyed one of his shred solos on an album was on that one song on the Astonishing - but then it's so out of the blue that it's welcome.

I forgot what song it is.

The ending of TGOM?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 09, 2017, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on March 09, 2017, 04:47:21 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2017, 06:10:10 AM
I think the last time I enjoyed one of his shred solos on an album was on that one song on the Astonishing - but then it's so out of the blue that it's welcome.

I forgot what song it is.

The ending of TGOM?

Might be A Tempting Offer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 09, 2017, 10:28:22 AM
Some of his solos are there because of the guitar and key boards are trading back and forth, almost like a dual. Not always necessary, just because there's a guitar solo there has to be a keyboard solo? I like the tone of the guitar solos way better. There are exceptions, Jordan's solos and all his other parts are perfectly placed in the epic songs Octavarium, Illumination Theory, TCOT, ITNOG etc.  To me, his work on TA is beyond amazing!
 I would almost like to see DT do a heavier album without keyboards and see what kind of reception it would get. Put Jordan on rhythm guitar, continuum, steele guitar, and maybe a few atmospheric string sounds in the background like Maiden/Ozzy does. (I know, controversial).
 I have a friend that can't get into DT because of the Keyboards, he's more of a metal purist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 09, 2017, 11:16:29 AM
I would like all of them experiment with sounds more actually. As an example, when I first heard of the whole NOMAC thing on TA, I was really looking forward to some awesome interaction between gnarly keyboard sounds and JP's guitar. I assume not a lot of people here listen to dubstep, but the keyboard sounds of that genre would have been *awesome*. Somewhat disappointingly, the NOMACs were only featured in filler tracks, and the actual music only featured the standard sounds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on March 09, 2017, 11:20:34 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 09, 2017, 11:16:29 AM
I would like all of them experiment with sounds more actually. As an example, when I first heard of the whole NOMAC thing on TA, I was really looking forward to some awesome interaction between gnarly keyboard sounds and JP's guitar. I assume not a lot of people here listen to dubstep, but the keyboard sounds of that genre would have been *awesome*. Somewhat disappointingly, the NOMACs were only featured in filler tracks, and the actual music only featured the standard sounds.

Yeah that would be cool. One thing I thought they were going to dive into more and really haven't was some of the electronic drum type stuff on ADTOE. If they continued to incorporate some of that stuff it would be something newish for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 09, 2017, 01:03:16 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 09, 2017, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on March 09, 2017, 04:47:21 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 08, 2017, 06:10:10 AM
I think the last time I enjoyed one of his shred solos on an album was on that one song on the Astonishing - but then it's so out of the blue that it's welcome.

I forgot what song it is.

The ending of TGOM?

Might be A Tempting Offer.

It's a really quick one and comes in just as the song speeds up.


EDIT : 1:30 in My Last Farewell !
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on March 09, 2017, 01:49:16 PM
Here's one that I think most here will certainly disagree with me on:

Scenes from a Memory is overrated.

Now, before I get  :flame:


hear me out...  :lol

It's not that Scenes is a bad record at all. It's not. The songs are solid, the story is creative. It is a completely solid record. Strange Deja Vu, Home, The Spirit Carries On, all exceptional tunes. However, I could never shake the feeling that it is styled, structurally, like so many concept albums before it. Now, part of that is obviously natural -- all the guys are influenced by those that came before them. But some of it was really blatant to my ears/eyes. For example: Regression, Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu = I Remember Now, Anarchy-X, Revolution Calling. I bring that up as an example, because obviously, being a huge fan of that original lineup of Queensryche, it immediately comes to mind. But there are other structural elements that remind me of The Wall, Tommy, and other concept records.

I guess it makes sense, given influences and all that but...

It really...I don't want to say it marred the record for me, but I sort of expected DT to do something totally different structurally, in comparison to what they did. When SFAM came out (1999, right?) I had only been a DT fan for three years. So the elements of their sound weren't as distinct to me as they are now. But I remember it really, really bothering me.

To this day, I still find 6DoiT (the song) a better conceptual "album" than SFAM. No hate toward SFAM from me here. I just think it is slightly overrated in the band's overall catalog.

 :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 09, 2017, 11:03:09 PM
 SFAM is a middle of the road DT album for me. Not their best and not their worst, so I'm with you on that..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on March 09, 2017, 11:08:10 PM
The only two songs I don't care for on SFAM are The Spirit Carries On and The Dance of Eternity.

Neither are bad, and I admit my hatred of TSCO is because it was played SO much. I think if I can go like 5 years without hearing it at all, I can revisit it and enjoy it.

I can listen to TDOE, but I'll never think it's more than silly instrumental wank without soul.

The rest of the album? It's hard to find a bad note.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rammstein on March 10, 2017, 12:24:11 AM
First post after years of lurking .... :D

I love FII and I think I like it more than Awake an I&W ... . I also like You Not Me! Not typical DT but really catchy and groovy. And the Chorus is on of the best DT choruses in my opinion.

As a Drummer I just cannot understand the snare in I&W. I mean of course mangini's production is not that great either, but you hear the difference still. The triggered snare almost ruins Songs like Metropolis and UAGM for me, as it is so loud and dominant.

I also think Steven Wilson or another high class Producer could really work for them. Especially in the Sound production they seem to Need fresh ears and more knowhow. I dont think he would be too expensive for them. He could also add creative Input although I guess the band would not want that.
Have you guys listened to Stone Sour's A Hoouse of Gold & Bones? Such a great Sound Quality! Crystal clear and crisp. That guy would be great too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 10, 2017, 01:09:26 AM
Welcome Rammstein!  :tup
 Good first post, I agree with some of the things you said. You Not Me is actually a cool song, even though popular opinion sais otherwise. FII is good but could have been better. If they would have put "Raise The Knife" on the album instead of "Just Let Me Breath" would have been a big improvement.
 I never could figure out why they used electronic drums on I&W. It's a great album but real drums would have been better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Logain Ablar on March 10, 2017, 01:49:34 AM
A second welcome, Rammstein!

FII is a mixed bag for me. Peruvian Skies is one of my top DT tracks, but quite a few others fall flat, like Burning My Soul for instance, which is a skipper every time it comes on. I also really like Hollow Years, but I wouldn't say that it's a typical DT song.

I do think that for me, it's probably the best sounding DT album - great sound on all the instruments and a great balanced mix.

I think the triggered snare kinda dates the sound of I&W a little, but it doesn't actually bother me too much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 10, 2017, 05:58:34 AM
Quote from: Adami on March 09, 2017, 11:08:10 PM
The only two songs I don't care for on SFAM are The Spirit Carries On and The Dance of Eternity.

I think I said this earlier in this thread but TSCO is one of the worst DT songs. I didn't like it when I first heard it and like it even less now.

I don't think DT can write good ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 10, 2017, 06:10:22 AM
Quote from: AnybodyListening.net on March 09, 2017, 01:49:16 PM
Here's one that I think most here will certainly disagree with me on:

Scenes from a Memory is overrated.

Now, before I get  :flame:


hear me out...  :lol

It's not that Scenes is a bad record at all. It's not. The songs are solid, the story is creative. It is a completely solid record. Strange Deja Vu, Home, The Spirit Carries On, all exceptional tunes. However, I could never shake the feeling that it is styled, structurally, like so many concept albums before it. Now, part of that is obviously natural -- all the guys are influenced by those that came before them. But some of it was really blatant to my ears/eyes. For example: Regression, Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu = I Remember Now, Anarchy-X, Revolution Calling. I bring that up as an example, because obviously, being a huge fan of that original lineup of Queensryche, it immediately comes to mind. But there are other structural elements that remind me of The Wall, Tommy, and other concept records.

I guess it makes sense, given influences and all that but...

It really...I don't want to say it marred the record for me, but I sort of expected DT to do something totally different structurally, in comparison to what they did. When SFAM came out (1999, right?) I had only been a DT fan for three years. So the elements of their sound weren't as distinct to me as they are now. But I remember it really, really bothering me.

To this day, I still find 6DoiT (the song) a better conceptual "album" than SFAM. No hate toward SFAM from me here. I just think it is slightly overrated in the band's overall catalog.

 :corn

First off, I am shocked that would find a way to work Queensryche into that summation...:P :biggrin:

Second, does it bother you that Mindcrime blatantly rips off The Wall at one point?

Third, Scenes from a Memory is awesome. :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on March 10, 2017, 07:25:46 AM
Quote from: AnybodyListening.net on March 09, 2017, 01:49:16 PM
Here's one that I think most here will certainly disagree with me on:

Scenes from a Memory is overrated.

Now, before I get  :flame:


hear me out...  :lol

It's not that Scenes is a bad record at all. It's not. The songs are solid, the story is creative. It is a completely solid record. Strange Deja Vu, Home, The Spirit Carries On, all exceptional tunes. However, I could never shake the feeling that it is styled, structurally, like so many concept albums before it. Now, part of that is obviously natural -- all the guys are influenced by those that came before them. But some of it was really blatant to my ears/eyes. For example: Regression, Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu = I Remember Now, Anarchy-X, Revolution Calling. I bring that up as an example, because obviously, being a huge fan of that original lineup of Queensryche, it immediately comes to mind. But there are other structural elements that remind me of The Wall, Tommy, and other concept records.

I guess it makes sense, given influences and all that but...

It really...I don't want to say it marred the record for me, but I sort of expected DT to do something totally different structurally, in comparison to what they did. When SFAM came out (1999, right?) I had only been a DT fan for three years. So the elements of their sound weren't as distinct to me as they are now. But I remember it really, really bothering me.

To this day, I still find 6DoiT (the song) a better conceptual "album" than SFAM. No hate toward SFAM from me here. I just think it is slightly overrated in the band's overall catalog.

 :corn

I actually agree 100%. To me, Scenes was a record "for the fans", and it shows. But, in my opinion, it doesn't come close to touching Images or Awake. I think my problem is partly the concept. As with the Astonishing, it's just a bit goofy for my tastes. I agree that SDOIT hits much harder, as do several of the band's other longer works.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 07:36:19 AM
I don't know the exact reason for it, but I can ignore SFAM's concept a lot more easily than TA's when I'm listening to the respective album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 10, 2017, 08:00:48 AM
I always looked at SFAM as an album for the band.  It's what they wanted to always do but were held back by the record labels.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
Plot wise you can also clearly tell MP's influence, who is a big movie buff. The album synopsis reads like a movie script. The "twist" at the end isn't maybe the greatest thing on earth, but overall the SFAM concept is pretty good.

it also helps that there are no men crying like women on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on March 10, 2017, 02:58:10 PM
IDK, some of the stuff on Scenes is just as mind boggling. I've love a version of Home that isn't marred by those awful samples... haha. And yeah, the samples at the very end of the album  really throw a wet blanket on everything for me. 

I will say that the Scenes concept is, at least, better obfuscated than the one in The Astonishing. The lyrics are just a pinch more abstract, which works in the album's benefit. Several songs can be enjoyed without the lyrics automatically making you think of the story.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 10, 2017, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
Plot wise you can also clearly tell MP's influence, who is a big movie buff. The album synopsis reads like a movie script.

And if you want to know *which* movie script, watch the movie Dead Again.

I personally consider SFAM the best thing ever happened to mankind after the discovery of fire and the development of human rights, but once you've heard Scenes and then you watch Dead Again, well... I'm not saying it's like listening to Stockholm Syndrome after Never Enough, but the inspiration is really there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on March 10, 2017, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 02:50:00 PM

it also helps that there are no men crying like women on the album.

Except when James talks about weeping like a baby.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 10:12:49 PM
The TA one always reminds me of Dodgeball:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7jnWRKT1GNk&t=35&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on March 11, 2017, 07:31:17 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 10:12:49 PM
The TA one always reminds me of Dodgeball:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7jnWRKT1GNk&t=35&feature=youtu.be

omg
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 11, 2017, 09:40:16 AM
Quote from: Adami on March 10, 2017, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 10, 2017, 02:50:00 PM

it also helps that there are no men crying like women on the album.

Except when James talks about weeping like a baby.

This exactly. THE is over the top sappy and girly-sounding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rammstein on March 13, 2017, 02:55:59 AM
One opinion that has nothing to do with Music but with style  ;D

JP, JLB and MM all look a bit strange right now regarding their hair and beard style.

JP-  Well where shall I begin? :D His beard is kinda out of control, you cant really see a lot of his facial Expression and I think it is just not looking good on him and it makes him look older. His longer hair are ok and classic JP I guess. But they would look cooler with his natural Color (meaning more Grey due to his age).He would look total badass with Long, majestic king hair with Grey elements and beard style like in the ADTOE or BC&SL days. Also the Budokan style was pretty awesome for him.

JLB- I know his beard is his signature pirate style right now  :yarr. But I think he Looks miles better shaved. Just like he did on SCORE. His hair style was also more natural at SCORE than right now. Although his Kind of wild 2016/17 style with black hear Looks ok. but still the beard and the dyed hair make him look very serious and grumpy :D.

MM - Nowadays he Looks like a Samurai with his Long black majestic hair and his pigtail. Also the Swimming goggles  :rollin. He looked so good at the Audition with his Little beard underneath his mouth. or with short hear he looked extremely cool.

JR - hi style is known for years and its fitting although it would be cool to see a different beard as well, maybe like the Budokan style.

I know that all of this is so unrelevant but still they kinda look like your 50 year old uncle that tries too hard to be Young and cool. A more classy look would suit them better.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 13, 2017, 05:13:02 AM
He needs to bring back the mutton chops
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 13, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Couple of things:

Quote from: Rammstein on March 13, 2017, 02:55:59 AM
JLB- I know his beard is his signature pirate style right now  :yarr. But I think he Looks miles better shaved. Just like he did on SCORE. His hair style was also more natural at SCORE than right now. Although his Kind of wild 2016/17 style with black hear Looks ok. but still the beard and the dyed hair make him look very serious and grumpy :D.

The problem is, it's not SCORE era, it's been 11 years now. And you can see that he's aged quite a bit. I'm not so sure he'd look as good without facial hair, now that his neck has more wrinkles and stuff.
I would be kinda curious to see what he'd look like, but I don't think he'd look as good.

Quote from: Rammstein on March 13, 2017, 02:55:59 AM
I know that all of this is so unrelevant but still they kinda look like your 50 year old uncle that tries too hard to be Young and cool. A more classy look would suit them better.
The thing is, they're not just 50 year old uncles. DT isn't just a garage band, they're actually an awesome and very successful rock group. So yeah, I dig their visual style. Not so much Petrucci's beard, but I think they should keep the long hair look as long as they can. If they all got modest beards and short, prim and proper hair, they really would look like a garage band, where everyone has an office job and that's why they need to maintain such looks.

But this is DTF, so if we really wanted to see DT all cleaned up and looking like the 1960's version of "classy", there are enough photoshop geniuses here. Let's make it happen!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on March 17, 2017, 06:36:34 PM
I start listening to SFAM on track 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 17, 2017, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on March 17, 2017, 06:36:34 PM
I start listening to SFAM on track 2.

Someone doesn't? :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on March 22, 2017, 07:32:45 PM
JP used to give me a bro-boner, but now I find him difficult to look at.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 22, 2017, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 17, 2017, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on March 17, 2017, 06:36:34 PM
I start listening to SFAM on track 2.

Someone doesn't? :neverusethis:

I only skip the first track when I'm driving.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 22, 2017, 08:58:10 PM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on March 22, 2017, 07:32:45 PM
JP used to give me a bro-boner, but now I find him difficult to look at.

DTs best look was the budokan era
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 22, 2017, 09:07:37 PM
With the exception of MP. That was some weird look.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on March 22, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
I think you're thinking of JP's Dave Navarro look which came later. Unless you think a short-haired JP is weird.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 23, 2017, 02:02:45 AM
I'm actually undecided on which era is James Myung's best look.

It's a tie between FII era and SFAM era and Six Degrees era and Mangini era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on March 23, 2017, 06:56:30 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2017, 02:02:45 AM
I'm actually undecided on which era is James Myung's best look.

It's a tie between FII era and SFAM era and Six Degrees era and Mangini era.

Quote from: jingle.boy on March 23, 2017, 06:38:47 AM
(https://replygif.net/i/989.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 26, 2017, 04:11:00 AM
1:24 - 1:31 in Surrender to Reason.

i've never been a fan of long riffs where you're not sure where the 1 is.

Or riffs that would sound fine in 4/4 but they drop or add a crotchet - just to be "more prog".

I remember fighting to have a riff in 4/4 in my old band because we were against 4/4 unless the riff sounded better that way.

It did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on March 27, 2017, 09:19:09 AM
Not sure where else to post this...total speculation and gut feeling on my part but I think a BIG change is coming to DT within 1 year.

A member change that isn't MP related.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2017, 09:24:06 AM
Honestly if I should speculate I could only see Jordan Rudess saying "I'm old, bye" (but he's active and passionate as ever) or Mangini leaving because of personal reasons. Can't see the "founding members" (James isn't but he's been there so long that he basically is) giving up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2017, 09:30:03 AM
Well, there's not reason right now to assume ANYBODY is leaving within a year.  And since they are planning on being on the I&W tour the rest of this year and then going into the studio to work up the ideas they have already come up with for the next album, I would say it is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 27, 2017, 09:48:41 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 26, 2017, 04:11:00 AM
1:24 - 1:31 in Surrender to Reason.

i've never been a fan of long riffs where you're not sure where the 1 is.

Or riffs that would sound fine in 4/4 but they drop or add a crotchet - just to be "more prog".

I remember fighting to have a riff in 4/4 in my old band because we were against 4/4 unless the riff sounded better that way.

It did.

So you don't like the intro to Breaking All Illusions?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 27, 2017, 09:52:14 AM
Well at least you can feel the pulse in that one.

But It's another example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on March 27, 2017, 09:53:55 AM
Quote from: emtee on March 27, 2017, 09:19:09 AM
Not sure where else to post this...total speculation and gut feeling on my part but I think a BIG change is coming to DT within 1 year.

A member change that isn't MP related.

Yeah Jordan is the only one I can see quitting due to age reasons ( he is over 60 after all ).

I think if something happened to James where he couldn't sing anymore - they may just call it a day as Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on March 27, 2017, 11:21:33 AM
I think you guys are all forgetting about JM's bass tech.

Dude seems really unhappy with the band since MP left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on March 27, 2017, 04:37:54 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on March 27, 2017, 09:53:55 AM
Quote from: emtee on March 27, 2017, 09:19:09 AM
Not sure where else to post this...total speculation and gut feeling on my part but I think a BIG change is coming to DT within 1 year.

A member change that isn't MP related.

Yeah Jordan is the only one I can see quitting due to age reasons ( he is over 60 after all ).

I think if something happened to James where he couldn't sing anymore - they may just call it a day as Dream Theater.

I kinda feel like if any member decides to bail/retire then the band might not go on.

They wouldn't continue without James. Or Jordan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 27, 2017, 05:57:10 PM
They could continue without Jordan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 27, 2017, 08:06:41 PM
I personally think James will, if anybody, be the first to call it. The other guys can adjust, e.g. Jordan could start using a stool behind him like so many other keyboard players. The vocals are the ones that you can't work around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on March 28, 2017, 02:57:59 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 27, 2017, 08:06:41 PM
I personally think James will, if anybody, be the first to call it. The other guys can adjust, e.g. Jordan could start using a stool behind him like so many other keyboard players. The vocals are the ones that you can't work around.

JLB already has to a degree, with the band tuning down and modifying melodies.
I do agree it's much harder for the vocalist to get away with these things though, being so upfront and prominent, and it's also the most important impression on the audience. Most people won't notice if the guitarist is slowing down a bit and fumbling occasionally, but if the singer isn't hitting the notes, it affects the whole show.

Back to the point of discussion though, I don't see anyone leaving the band in the near future. To me that's just bored housewife prog fan talk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 28, 2017, 04:51:11 AM
I agree with you Blob, I think this iteration of DT is probably going to be the one to the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:41:46 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I just saw on Bravewords that JP is showing off his new signature guitar, and I'm thinking who f'n cares? Is this a big deal to anyone?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 03, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:41:46 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I just saw on Bravewords that JP is showing off his new signature guitar, and I'm thinking who f'n cares? Is this a big deal to anyone?

I think it definitely is, I read somewhere that JP's signature guitar line is the best selling artist line of guitars ever, unless you count Les Pauls. So clearly a lot of people look to buy guitars from his line and would probably care about something like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on April 03, 2017, 02:52:11 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 28, 2017, 04:51:11 AM
I agree with you Blob, I think this iteration of DT is probably going to be the one to the end.

Oh I agree 100%. No way they want to go through another major member change after MP left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on April 03, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:41:46 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I just saw on Bravewords that JP is showing off his new signature guitar, and I'm thinking who f'n cares? Is this a big deal to anyone?

I think it definitely is, I read somewhere that JP's signature guitar line is the best selling artist line of guitars ever, unless you count Les Pauls. So clearly a lot of people look to buy guitars from his line and would probably care about something like that.

Well, that's cool. I suppose it's just me. :D I totally roll my eyes when I see announcements like this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 03, 2017, 03:52:11 PM
The video was totally over the top though, I agree. "We created the best instrument in the world" :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on April 03, 2017, 05:08:44 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 03, 2017, 03:52:11 PM
The video was totally over the top though, I agree. "We created the best instrument in the world" :lol
I think PRS makes the best looking guitars ever, and they play and sound very good!  I've never played a JP signature guitar though, wish I could afford one. I'd definitely check it out..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 03, 2017, 05:53:00 PM
I think JP was saying that GUITAR is the best instrument in the world. Not his line specifically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 04, 2017, 07:25:25 AM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on April 03, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:41:46 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I just saw on Bravewords that JP is showing off his new signature guitar, and I'm thinking who f'n cares? Is this a big deal to anyone?

I think it definitely is, I read somewhere that JP's signature guitar line is the best selling artist line of guitars ever, unless you count Les Pauls. So clearly a lot of people look to buy guitars from his line and would probably care about something like that.

Well, that's cool. I suppose it's just me. :D I totally roll my eyes when I see announcements like this.
:facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 04, 2017, 10:26:15 AM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on April 03, 2017, 02:46:37 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 03, 2017, 02:41:46 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I just saw on Bravewords that JP is showing off his new signature guitar, and I'm thinking who f'n cares? Is this a big deal to anyone?

I think it definitely is, I read somewhere that JP's signature guitar line is the best selling artist line of guitars ever, unless you count Les Pauls. So clearly a lot of people look to buy guitars from his line and would probably care about something like that.

Well, that's cool. I suppose it's just me. :D I totally roll my eyes when I see announcements like this.

If his guitar doesn't interest you, that response make sense. I'm just saying lots of people buy those guitars, so to them it probably is a big deal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 04, 2017, 11:17:38 AM
Yeah. When I go on a metal news site and I see a pic of JP or any of the guys, I'm thinking news, tour dates, interview. Then it ends up being just a guitar.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vtgrad on April 05, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
Being an owner of one (copper fire version of the first edition with the etched shield), I can say without a doubt that it's the most comfortable and precise electric I have... and honestly, you could plug it into a tin-can  with string and it would sound amazing.  Smooth as an aged Remy Martin XO (the guitar, not my playing  ;))

But, you do pay for it.  By far the most expensive purchase for me personally... yes it is worth it.

I was excited to see his new line... I'm happy for JP to be this space with Ernie Ball and Mesa.  He deserves it I think... one of the nicest pro musicians I've met.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 05, 2017, 03:16:48 PM
I do wonder if JP had planned to do a concept album for album 13 seeing as it is 8+5.

Also interesting that album 5 is a concept album and album 8 is significantly more straightforward and less technical and has orbs on the cover....

It does seem an odd coincidence.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 06, 2017, 01:03:14 AM
I believe it's just a coincidence. The idea of another concept album was always in the back of their minds, and probably hadn't Portnoy left DT11 with him would have been a concept.

Once they've lost Portnoy they had to re-learn to walk before flying so to speak, so they had to re-estabilish the band in a sense before doing something so out of the box.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 06, 2017, 08:23:26 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 05, 2017, 03:16:48 PM
I do wonder if JP had planned to do a concept album for album 13 seeing as it is 8+5.

Also interesting that album 5 is a concept album and album 8 is significantly more straightforward and less technical and has orbs on the cover....

It does seem an odd coincidence.

Quote from: MirrorMask on April 06, 2017, 01:03:14 AM
I believe it's just a coincidence. The idea of another concept album was always in the back of their minds, and probably hadn't Portnoy left DT11 with him would have been a concept.

Once they've lost Portnoy they had to re-learn to walk before flying so to speak, so they had to re-estabilish the band in a sense before doing something so out of the box.

The funny thing about this is that the post-Portnoy albums really feels like retracing their path in the early years:

ADTOE is going back to the basics of what made I&W successful
DT is like jamming it out but with the intention to come up with more compact songs ala Awake.
Then TA is like FII-SFAM (SFAM is part of the FII demos, right?) but without the label interference.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Devin Townsend on April 06, 2017, 10:20:31 PM
This is ten times better than the original song:  :metal



https://youtu.be/Qa_4XODIPlA (https://youtu.be/Qa_4XODIPlA)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 02:02:36 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 06, 2017, 08:23:26 PM

ADTOE is going back to the basics of what made I&W successful
DT is like jamming it out but with the intention to come up with more compact songs ala Awake.
Then TA is like FII-SFAM (SFAM is part of the FII demos, right?) but without the label interference.

Then DT14 will be another double album :P

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 07, 2017, 03:10:11 AM
I am thinking more of an experimental album in terms of getting contemporary influences. :p Although I don't know if they will take the risk given that they already gambled with TA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Logain Ablar on April 07, 2017, 04:32:59 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 07, 2017, 03:10:11 AM
I am thinking more of an experimental album in terms of getting contemporary influences. :p Although I don't know if they will take the risk given that they already gambled with TA.

Yeah, something a little more experimental would be interesting, but I can see them going back to safer territory for the next one.

I wouldn't really be too keen for an all-out heavy album, though. I really hope they keep some of the melodic direction they were going for with TA. One slight frustration with TA is that some of the cooler melodic parts were over all too soon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 08:36:22 AM
I don't expect the band to last *too* much longer... As in - up to ten years -  but not much more...

But I would be ok with one really oddball album every 3 albums with ADTOE style safer ones in between...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Renzo on April 07, 2017, 01:28:52 PM
Well in a recent interview, where JP talked about the possibility of a solo album, he also said that DT14 will be a "probably more traditional DT, definitely heavy inspired by the band's signature sound."

I still wonder how it will sound with an 8 string guitar..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on April 07, 2017, 01:32:07 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 08:36:22 AM
I don't expect the band to last *too* much longer... As in - up to ten years -  but not much more...

But I would be ok with one really oddball album every 3 albums with ADTOE style safer ones in between...

I hope you're wrong, but I don't see JLBs voice lasting another 10 years or more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
Both Johns are 50 soon and Mike & James are there already. Jordan is 60.

In 10 years they'll all be at least 60 with Jordan 70  and their music is very demanding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 07, 2017, 02:00:17 PM
Jordan is a wizard. He doesn't age like the others do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 07, 2017, 04:12:29 PM
I wouldn't worry about Jordan overstaying his ability to play the songs anyway.  A wizard is never late.  Nor is he early.  He arrives precisely when he means to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 07, 2017, 04:32:26 PM
:lol

Nice one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on April 08, 2017, 10:26:42 PM
Jordan is 60?!?!?!??

Damn he aged very well...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 09, 2017, 06:48:32 PM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on April 07, 2017, 01:32:07 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 08:36:22 AM
I don't expect the band to last *too* much longer... As in - up to ten years -  but not much more...

But I would be ok with one really oddball album every 3 albums with ADTOE style safer ones in between...

I hope you're wrong, but I don't see JLBs voice lasting another 10 years or more.

Quote from: Kotowboy on April 07, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
Both Johns are 50 soon and Mike & James are there already. Jordan is 60.

In 10 years they'll all be at least 60 with Jordan 70  and their music is very demanding.

I have said this on other threads before, but I think neither James or Jordan will stay untill the very end of the band.

Why?

James: his voice will eventually need a big rest and that would prevent him from touring too much.

Jordan: He's over 60, so I give him another 5 or 6 years with DT untill he decides to retire from the band to make some other kind of music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 09, 2017, 07:58:09 PM
https://www.ticketmaster.nl/artist/dream-theater-tickets/1212

They canceled the upcoming Amsterdam gig and moved it to Tilburg, into a much smaller venue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on April 10, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Is the DT subforum dying? Hardly any posts for the last 3 days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shooters1221 on April 11, 2017, 05:40:04 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on April 10, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Is the DT subforum dying? Hardly any posts for the last 3 days.

Yeah, it's that slow period when no new info and latest release is over a year old. I would assume this happens on other boards as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 11, 2017, 06:34:07 AM
Need MP to make some posts to drum up some activity here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 11, 2017, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 11, 2017, 06:34:07 AM
Need MP to make some posts to drum up some activity here.

 :lol Pretty much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 11, 2017, 08:43:45 AM
It will be pretty slow for most of the rest of they year on this side, with the band not even writing new material until 2018.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cfmoran13 on April 11, 2017, 09:14:56 AM
I really wish that DT would use an outside producer for the next album.  I know that they weren't exactly thrilled with the resulting album from their last time in the studio with someone else producing.  But, I think Petrucci is a little too close at this point and has been for a while.  I feel an outside producer would do them well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 11, 2017, 09:33:08 AM
At this point in time, I think the "outside producer = bad" point of view is moot.

The outside produced himself didn't mess up the Falling Into Infinity album, the label influence did. They wanted a certain kind of album and for the record not even the entire band was strongly against that, Petrucci welcomed the idea. They were still a young band and they did not have the creative freedom they have now.

I understand them being "scarred" by the experience *at the time*, but 20 years later, no way in hell an outside producer translates into them being forced at a metaphoric gunpoint to write short radio hits.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 11, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 11, 2017, 09:33:08 AM
I understand them being "scarred" by the experience *at the time*, but 20 years later, no way in hell an outside producer translates into them being forced at a metaphoric gunpoint to write short radio hits.

I agree. So what exactly do you think an outside producer would bring to the table then? More on the arrangement side or the production side? Little of both?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on April 11, 2017, 11:09:09 AM
The next album desperately needs a good drum sound. ADTOE was weak, DT12 was bad all around, TA would have been OK, if it wasn't for the snare (which is the most important part of the whole kit anyway). Feels like this is the last chance for MM. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nic35 on April 11, 2017, 12:58:45 PM
The cover album of the BC&SL special edition is the best album they have released since SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cfmoran13 on April 11, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on April 11, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 11, 2017, 09:33:08 AM
I understand them being "scarred" by the experience *at the time*, but 20 years later, no way in hell an outside producer translates into them being forced at a metaphoric gunpoint to write short radio hits.

I agree. So what exactly do you think an outside producer would bring to the table then? More on the arrangement side or the production side? Little of both?

Hopefully, a little bit of both.  Basically, just looking for a little more objectivity.  "The guitars (or keyboards) need to be a little further back in the mix."  "That drum sound is horrible."  "Does that song really need three 2-minute long instrumental sections?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on April 11, 2017, 02:44:23 PM
Quote from: Nic35 on April 11, 2017, 12:58:45 PM
The cover album of the BC&SL special edition is the best album they have released since SDOIT.

Eh, no thanks. I like the song selection and the performance are fine, but there's something about the BC&SL production applied to those standards that just leaves me a little cold. Would much rather listen to the originals of nearly all those songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 11, 2017, 05:56:51 PM
Quote from: cfmoran13 on April 11, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
Hopefully, a little bit of both.  Basically, just looking for a little more objectivity.  "The guitars (or keyboards) need to be a little further back in the mix."  "That drum sound is horrible."  "Does that song really need three 2-minute long instrumental sections?"

I think for any of those above, they were conscious choices by JP. Chycki clearly knows how to get a great drum sound, if you listen to any of his interviews, the guy knows what he's doing. Meaning, the drums sound the way because JP wanted them to.
Same with the 2-minute instrumental sections, or the overall mix. JP is the producer, and he will have directed the guys.
Tldr, you actually want less JP. The funny thing is, I actually don't disagree with any of your "requests", but I don't know who else would, or could, step up. An outside producer would essentially have to exert more power than any of the other DT members have in the last 5 years. Not gonna happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 11, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 11, 2017, 05:56:51 PM
Quote from: cfmoran13 on April 11, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
Hopefully, a little bit of both.  Basically, just looking for a little more objectivity.  "The guitars (or keyboards) need to be a little further back in the mix."  "That drum sound is horrible."  "Does that song really need three 2-minute long instrumental sections?"

I think for any of those above, they were conscious choices by JP. Chycki clearly knows how to get a great drum sound, if you listen to any of his interviews, the guy knows what he's doing. Meaning, the drums sound the way because JP wanted them to.
Same with the 2-minute instrumental sections, or the overall mix. JP is the producer, and he will have directed the guys.
Tldr, you actually want less JP. The funny thing is, I actually don't disagree with any of your "requests", but I don't know who else would, or could, step up. An outside producer would essentially have to exert more power than any of the other DT members have in the last 5 years. Not gonna happen.

Rumbo is right with these. Chycki (and any other mixer/engineer) will get the sound the producer asks for. At the end of the day, that's what he gets paid for, to make things sound the way the producer (JP) wants things to sound.

About the looong instrumental sections, they've trimmed a lot of that in the last 3 albums and the songs have been more concise. That was a problem, imo, on the era between TOT - BC&SL.

Commenting on the external producer case, getting a sole external producer like they had in the past (Kevin Shirley, for example) is never gonna happen, that's for sure. What we can hope for is that they get someone to co-produce the albums with JP, because, let's be honest, it's not like JP is gonna leave the production duties anytime soon, but we can, hopefully, get someone who is experienced enough and respected by JP and the rest of the band, so he can give some input into the direction the albums should go, specially in the sound/mix aspects of the album production.
That way, we could have JP taking care of the musical side of things, while the co-producer could focus on getting a better sound and feel for the album. That's what I see could happen in the future.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on April 11, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
It is too bad that the negative experience with FII turned them off from outside producers completely. I can't see how allowing an external voice can ever be a bad thing. The difference is now DT is in a position where they don't necessarily have to take that advice, so they can still do what they want in the end. There would never be a repeat of the FII situation.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 12, 2017, 12:51:12 AM
Yeah Paolo from Trivium tweeted to someone who said : I hope on your next album :soon: don't tell you what to play again...

Paolo : Roadrunner have never told us what to play. We are free to make the albums we want.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 12, 2017, 07:00:54 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 11, 2017, 05:56:51 PM
Quote from: cfmoran13 on April 11, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
Hopefully, a little bit of both.  Basically, just looking for a little more objectivity.  "The guitars (or keyboards) need to be a little further back in the mix."  "That drum sound is horrible."  "Does that song really need three 2-minute long instrumental sections?"

I think for any of those above, they were conscious choices by JP. Chycki clearly knows how to get a great drum sound, if you listen to any of his interviews, the guy knows what he's doing. Meaning, the drums sound the way because JP wanted them to.
Same with the 2-minute instrumental sections, or the overall mix. JP is the producer, and he will have directed the guys.
Tldr, you actually want less JP. The funny thing is, I actually don't disagree with any of your "requests", but I don't know who else would, or could, step up. An outside producer would essentially have to exert more power than any of the other DT members have in the last 5 years. Not gonna happen.

I agree to an extent. I think that's why JP and MP co-producing worked well. Two different voices. Even if they brought someone in from the outside to co-produce with JP, I think it would be a good challenge for him personally and the band as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 12, 2017, 11:38:48 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 12, 2017, 12:51:12 AM
Yeah Paolo from Trivium tweeted to someone who said : I hope on your next album :soon: don't tell you what to play again...

Paolo : Roadrunner have never told us what to play. We are free to make the albums we want.

Just an off topic question, but does anybody know when does the Roadrunner contract expire? The've released a couple albums since renewing it (DT12 and TA), so they probably have, what, another studio release with RR?I've been wondering this for months  :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on April 12, 2017, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 12, 2017, 11:38:48 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 12, 2017, 12:51:12 AM
Yeah Paolo from Trivium tweeted to someone who said : I hope on your next album :soon: don't tell you what to play again...

Paolo : Roadrunner have never told us what to play. We are free to make the albums we want.

Just an off topic question, but does anybody know when does the Roadrunner contract expire? The've released a couple albums since renewing it (DT12 and TA), so they probably have, what, another studio release with RR?I've been wondering this for months  :huh:

I think DT like the big label treatment, regardless of the drawbacks. Roadrunner are 100% owned by Warner Music Group, so I doubt that DT could go much bigger than that if they wanted to. And I don't think creative control is an issue for them at RR. If anything, The Astonishing is an indication that there is absolutely no one at Roadrunner telling DT they can't do something  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 12, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
Quote from: Skeever on April 12, 2017, 01:27:58 PM
I think DT like the big label treatment, regardless of the drawbacks. Roadrunner are 100% owned by Warner Music Group, so I doubt that DT could go much bigger than that if they wanted to. And I don't think creative control is an issue for them at RR. If anything, The Astonishing is an indication that there is absolutely no one at Roadrunner telling DT they can't do something  :lol

Well, that's a very good point  :lol
I do remember some people having issues with the deluxe edition of TA and all the extra stuff that came with it, like the NOMAC figure and the loooooong wait people had to endure before their pre orders arrived, for example. These things weren't a DT fault, but rather bad management from the label. They could take these things in consideration for the next album. Also, it's DT we're talking about, they could sign with almost every label out there (according to the genere, of course) and still get 100% creative control on their albums  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on April 13, 2017, 12:17:33 AM
I hate the falsetto thing that MP does at the end of Schmedley Wilcox during the end of Octavarium. It ruins a great song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mosh on April 13, 2017, 12:45:38 AM
I really don't think that's controversial. :lol:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 13, 2017, 01:03:31 AM
The Astonshing is the best DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 13, 2017, 02:26:57 AM
Quote from: Mosh on April 13, 2017, 12:45:38 AM
I really don't think that's controversial. :lol:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 13, 2017, 05:03:28 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on April 13, 2017, 12:17:33 AM
I hate the falsetto thing that MP does at the end of Schmedley Wilcox during the end of Octavarium. It ruins a great song.

Nothing discussing MP's wealth of vocal abilities is controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 13, 2017, 06:44:26 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 13, 2017, 05:03:28 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on April 13, 2017, 12:17:33 AM
I hate the falsetto thing that MP does at the end of Schmedley Wilcox during the end of Octavarium. It ruins a great song.

Nothing discussing MP's wealth of vocal abilities is controversial.

I actually always liked that.  Maybe that is the more controversial opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 13, 2017, 08:37:24 AM
I concur.

If it's the part I'm thinking of, I think he's doing it facetiously. Any of those falsetto parts or the ass and balls thing, he never did it when official releases were being filmed. If you listen to other bootlegs from those tours, he used to do it almost every night.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 13, 2017, 07:50:32 PM
This will certainly be a controversial statement: I was listening to TA  during plane taxiing etc today, and it struck me that JR kinda phoned it in on that album. His piano pieces are a bit dime a dozen, his NOMAC interludes don't seem to have a lot of thought put into them either. Even for the endings of songs he kept reusing the same motifs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 13, 2017, 08:07:08 PM
Dystopian Overture, Ravenskill and The X Aspect, phoning it in?

You don't like the album. We get it. But why keep on projecting it to the members of DT themselves as if they don't like the album as well?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 13, 2017, 08:42:38 PM
Yeah, I don't get that either.  TA has some of Rudess' most tasteful and restrained playing ever, yet he phoned it in?  JHC. :facepalm: :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on April 14, 2017, 01:46:15 AM
I'm not hearing it either. His piano playing is out of this world on this album, especially melodically, and in terms of composing the themes, he really brought his A game. Not to mention he was super creative with variations of certain themes. I'm not a fan of the NOMAC bits for the most part, but they do sound very creatively engaged and loose, which makes me think Jordan really enjoyed finally being able to put his love for sounds and effects to use.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 08:37:44 AM
(https://s2.quickmeme.com/img/41/41522edb4f42599180c0c0982df855213164a9577ae3f97d45a03b18dd159c23.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on April 14, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 13, 2017, 07:50:32 PM
This will certainly be a controversial statement: I was listening to TA  during plane taxiing etc today, and it struck me that JR kinda phoned it in on that album. His piano pieces are a bit dime a dozen, his NOMAC interludes don't seem to have a lot of thought put into them either. Even for the endings of songs he kept reusing the same motifs.

I loved JR's work on this album. I consider most of his circus music to be phoning it in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 14, 2017, 09:07:13 AM
I was never a fan of the circus music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2017, 09:12:52 AM
Don't like =/= phoning it in
None of these examples are phoning it in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 14, 2017, 09:26:56 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2017, 09:12:52 AM
Don't like =/= phoning it in
None of these examples are phoning it in.

His IPhone app stuff is phoning it in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
:lol Well played.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on April 14, 2017, 09:48:08 AM
Whether JLB's voice is on or not, he's always giving it 100%.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Well, I don't know if he's just getting into the song or he seems a bit miffed at something. I wouldn't say he has a shitty attitude, maybe just having a bad night vocally and it's getting to him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Hit at 3:40.

Man, if I saw that at a concert I´ll be very tempted to leave.

I don´t believe you don´t see that grin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 14, 2017, 10:25:15 AM
Watched again and again... I don't see anything strange. There's sure a lot of echo going on, are you taking it as playback?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 10:28:23 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 14, 2017, 10:25:15 AM
Watched again and again... I don't see anything strange. There's sure a lot of echo going on, are you taking it as playback?

What? No, of course is live.

He is signing like he would rather be anywhere else. He is pissed and he is showing it.

Come on . :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 14, 2017, 10:35:56 AM
Ah ok. I simply see it more as him not being at the top of his form, and knowing it. He's pissed at the sickness (comments mention he was sick on some dates), not at paying Dream Theater fans wanting to see him. Should Petrucci ever mess up royally a solo, I bet he would have the same look on his face without meaning he doesn't want to be there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 14, 2017, 10:25:15 AM
Watched again and again... I don't see anything strange.

This.  I think you are imagining things that aren't there, Siddhartha. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 14, 2017, 10:51:38 AM
:lolpalm: Getting pissy cause he doesn't want to be at his own gig...

rofl.

Not at all that he's annoyed / upset that his voice isn't in top shape.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Hit at 3:40.

Man, if I saw that at a concert I´ll be very tempted to leave.

I don´t believe you don´t see that grin.

That's what I assumed you were referring to. Yes, he does seemed irritated at something. It doesn't mean he has some negative attitude towards everything. You've never seen ANY of the guys get frustrated on stage if they miss or note or something? You clearly don't watch too many live shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on April 14, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
I remember listening to Geoff Tate sing live and thinking how just hearing his strained voice made my throat hurt. Hate to same I'm right back there with these recent performances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 11:41:58 AM
That's what I assumed you were referring to. Yes, he does seemed irritated at something. It doesn't mean he has some negative attitude towards everything. You've never seen ANY of the guys get frustrated on stage if they miss or note or something? You clearly don't watch too many live shows.

Well, I was at the Madrid show at the DT12 tour.

That was supposed to be "An Evening with DT" tipe of show... but they had problems with their equipment. The show began 2 hours late, they weren´t able to show the video segments on the screens as planed, the lights wasn´t working so well, and they were having problems with their in ear monitors which lead to them making some very notorious mistakes. They had to cut Ilumination Theory and another song from the show, leaving us with a regular concert but with the extra price for "An Evening with" type of show.

That night everything failed. But they still they managed to put a very good show, and although you can see they were worried about what happened they copped with it with and extra of good attitude.

Exactly the opposite of what you can see in that clip.

And in 2017 alone I´m seeing Devin Townsend, Dream Theater, Michael Schenker, Deep Purple, Aerosmith, Guns N´Roses, Slayer, Helloween plus a lot of classical, blues and jazz gigs that are almost free here in Madrid. So I have my right share of live experiences.

And bad attitude sucks and looks unprofessional, whatever the reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 14, 2017, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Well, I don't know if he's just getting into the song or he seems a bit miffed at something. I wouldn't say he has a shitty attitude, maybe just having a bad night vocally and it's getting to him.

He definitely looked frustrated, maybe at himself (seems likely) maybe at something else.  I got to be honest and say that would turn me off a bit seeing that, I particularly love watching bands that are smiling and visibly look happy, it makes me happy.  If that's a one off moment, fine we are all human. If he acted like that all concert then I'd say there's a problem (I don't think there is other than he's struggling)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2017, 12:03:08 PM
You're not going to see perfect shows all the time.  Even DT are human.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on April 14, 2017, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2017, 12:03:08 PM
You're not going to see perfect shows all the time.  Even DT are human.

I was about to say this exact thing. Cmon man we're all human. We have bad days "at work" Or have kids who are sick and you're thinking about them.  Plus we know JLB was quite sick for a few shows last leg.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on April 14, 2017, 12:26:17 PM

I was about to say this exact thing. Cmon man we're all human. We have bad days "at work" Or have kids who are sick and you're thinking about them.  Plus we know JLB was quite sick for a few shows last leg.

To me that´s not an excuse, especially for a performer. I have seen Bon Jovi, BON f*****g JOVI, playing a concert here so sick that he phased out before the bisses at the backstage and had to be taken directly to the hospital. And the guy for the hour and a quarter he managed to be on the stage rocked the stadium like it was his last day on earth.





Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 01:01:35 PM
Honestly, if you get this worked up over a singer not having the facial expressions you subjectively want him to have, maybe their shows just aren't for you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 01:08:38 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 01:01:35 PM
Honestly, if you get this worked up over a singer not having the facial expressions you subjectively want him to have, maybe their shows just aren't for you.

I agree. If I see that at a gig I paid for, that would be the last one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2017, 01:14:16 PM
So one specific moment in a 2 hour concert woyld stop you from seeing them ever again?  That's a little harsh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
I would use a different word than "harsh."  :lol 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 01:21:35 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2017, 01:14:16 PM
So one specific moment in a 2 hour concert woyld stop you from seeing them ever again?  That's a little harsh.

Well, the clip was only one song, and to be fair, maybe he was all workep up the rest of the gig.

I was thinking more in terms of a complete concert like that.

It have happened to me before. I went to see Clapton play at Barcelona, and the guy left the other guitar player take 95% of the solos and was constantly looking the hour in his watch and looking bored. What a crap of concert.

Will never go to see him again even if it is free near my home.


On the good side of things Robert Randolph was opening the show that night. Never hear of him, but man, what a show, they made the trip totally worth it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
I would use a different word than "harsh."  :lol

Then you would have to warn yourself.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 14, 2017, 01:24:10 PM
If it was an ongoing thing I'd see at concerts then yeah, I could see the way you feel.  But for the 14 DT shows I've been to I never saw that myself.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 14, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
I think the discussion point here shouldn't be James' facial expresions, but the fact that they insist on playing the IAW songs, knowing that James isn't going to be able to pull them off consistently night alter night. It's not rocket science, guys  :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 01:29:18 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 14, 2017, 01:24:10 PM
If it was an ongoing thing I'd see at concerts then yeah, I could see the way you feel.  But for the 14 DT shows I've been to I never saw that myself.

I never seen that in either of the ones I have attended (even when everything went south like the one horror night I described before). That´s the reason it surprised me to see that clip.

I´m just hopping that in a couple of weeks they perform as good as usual.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 11:41:58 AM
That's what I assumed you were referring to. Yes, he does seemed irritated at something. It doesn't mean he has some negative attitude towards everything. You've never seen ANY of the guys get frustrated on stage if they miss or note or something? You clearly don't watch too many live shows.

And bad attitude sucks and looks unprofessional, whatever the reason.

No, it looks like sometimes shit happens and everybody expresses it differently. But I guess you're a special creature who is so resilient to life that you always have a smile on your face because rainbows and unicorns.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 14, 2017, 02:02:45 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Hit at 3:40.

Man, if I saw that at a concert I´ll be very tempted to leave.

I don´t believe you don´t see that grin.

First off, that is some amazing video.

Also, considering some of the vocals on this tour, this was actually one of the best I've heard. These vocals probably take intense focus for him. I don't see anything negative at all. At the 3;40 timestamp, he sings his part, and does a decent job BTW, and then flicks the mic stand as if to say "fuck yeah". Maybe he has to psyche himself up to be angry to sing some of this stuff, with it being so hard.

Man, if I saw that at a concert I'll be very tempted to go to every show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 02:06:47 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 01:46:39 PM


No, it looks like sometimes shit happens and everybody expresses it differently. But I guess you're a special creature who is so resilient to life that you always have a smile on your face because rainbows and unicorns.

Oh I´m not special, there are millions like me that don´t let their shit show to the people they are working for, because it is not their fault.

Then are the ones that doesn´t care because "we are all human", so they can treat people poorly because they don´t feel good. Like you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on April 14, 2017, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 14, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
I think the discussion point here shouldn't be James' facial expresions, but the fact that they insist on playing the IAW songs, knowing that James isn't going to be able to pull them off consistently night alter night. It's not rocket science, guys  :huh:

 I'd like to think that nobody forced James to do this tour...I mean, they wouldn't do it if they knew it was too much for him. And he did get really sick. Saw the Helsinki show this tour and you could tell that he was frustrated with his voice but the thing is...I okayed him for that completely because he did his best, totally nailing some of it and was phenomenal is terms of connecting with the audience. Yes, it's his job, but he's a human and it's very understandable that it gets to him when his voice just isn't there
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 02:19:16 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 02:06:47 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 01:46:39 PM


No, it looks like sometimes shit happens and everybody expresses it differently. But I guess you're a special creature who is so resilient to life that you always have a smile on your face because rainbows and unicorns.

Oh I´m not special, there are millions like me that don´t let their shit show to the people they are working for, because it is not their fault.

Then are the ones that doesn´t care because "we are all human", so they can treat people poorly because they don´t feel good. Like you.

Okay, but nobody treated anybody poorly in that video, so I go back to my original question:  What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 02:26:44 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 02:06:47 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 01:46:39 PM


No, it looks like sometimes shit happens and everybody expresses it differently. But I guess you're a special creature who is so resilient to life that you always have a smile on your face because rainbows and unicorns.

Oh I´m not special, there are millions like me that don´t let their shit show to the people they are working for, because it is not their fault.

Then are the ones that doesn´t care because "we are all human", so they can treat people poorly because they don´t feel good. Like you.

Your understanding of human psychology is...scary. It almost comes across that you think human rationale is binary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CB on April 14, 2017, 02:33:23 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on April 14, 2017, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Well, I don't know if he's just getting into the song or he seems a bit miffed at something. I wouldn't say he has a shitty attitude, maybe just having a bad night vocally and it's getting to him.

He definitely looked frustrated, maybe at himself (seems likely) maybe at something else.  I got to be honest and say that would turn me off a bit seeing that, I particularly love watching bands that are smiling and visibly look happy, it makes me happy.  If that's a one off moment, fine we are all human. If he acted like that all concert then I'd say there's a problem (I don't think there is other than he's struggling)

Consider what that song is about ... 5 band members smiling and looking happy playing THAT song would put me off, honestly. Look at JP's face during his solo part ... no happy smiling face as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 14, 2017, 03:26:38 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 14, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 14, 2017, 09:47:11 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

???  What are you talking about?  What did James do that displayed any kind of negative attitude?

Well, I don't know if he's just getting into the song or he seems a bit miffed at something. I wouldn't say he has a shitty attitude, maybe just having a bad night vocally and it's getting to him.

Looked to me like he was frustrated because he wasn't able to hit certain notes the way he wanted to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 14, 2017, 04:11:49 PM
I have no idea what this discussion is about. That facial expression was more "tough-guy", wasn't it? I can't say I can ever remember James letting his personal feelings influence his performance, and I don't think this one is either.

Interesting that JR was wearing headphones. I don't recall him ever doing that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 14, 2017, 05:01:56 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 14, 2017, 04:11:49 PM
I have no idea what this discussion is about. That facial expression was more "tough-guy", wasn't it? I can't say I can ever remember James letting his personal feelings influence his performance, and I don't think this one is either.

Interesting that JR was wearing headphones. I don't recall him ever doing that.

He was having issues with his in-ear monitors, Somebody who went to that concert posted about it on another thread a while ago. I think JR also commented on that somewhere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 14, 2017, 08:17:51 PM
To be honest, I didn't think he was that bad apart from 2:20-3:00. Everything else seemed fine to me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: red barchetta on April 14, 2017, 10:09:03 PM
He looks unhappy about his voice. He is really struggling with that song even being played in a lower key. But it is no big deal to me though most musicians hide mostly mistakes and bad times. He is just trying hard and wants to do his best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ? on April 15, 2017, 01:28:48 AM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
And bad attitude sucks and looks unprofessional, whatever the reason.
I could see your point if JLB was flipping off the audience or going all Geoff Tate on them, telling them they suck. But while you can tell he's pissed off in that clip, he's not taking it out on anyone. I doubt most people thought "wow, what a douche" or even paid attention to it. I saw them in Helsinki and noticed a little bit of frustration at a few points when he couldn't hit the notes, but when he was addressing us and telling stories, there was no negativity whatsoever. Assuming he's recovered from his illness, you probably won't see James acting like he does in that video.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 15, 2017, 06:43:39 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 14, 2017, 04:11:49 PM
I have no idea what this discussion is about. That facial expression was more "tough-guy", wasn't it? I can't say I can ever remember James letting his personal feelings influence his performance, and I don't think this one is either.

Interesting that JR was wearing headphones. I don't recall him ever doing that.

I was wondering about the headphones too  :lol

Quote from: gzarruk on April 14, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
I think the discussion point here shouldn't be James' facial expresions, but the fact that they insist on playing the IAW songs, knowing that James isn't going to be able to pull them off consistently night alter night. It's not rocket science, guys  :huh:

My opinion, but I think this is the last of most of those songs live.  I think the mix of poor attendance on that last TA leg and some general negativity towards the band plus the timing of 25th anniversary of their most popular album, it just made sense for them to hit the road again honoring the album and mixing in some other fan wanted songs to invigorate the fan base again.  It seems to mostly be working even if the performances aren't perfect.  I personally can not wait for them to announce NA dates so I can catch my all time favorite album live, perfect or not.  When this is over, I doubt we get the opportunity to see a lot of these songs again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 15, 2017, 07:01:42 AM
At most he looks more frustrated than anything else which I can totally understand, he seemed to be struggling a bit. It's no big deal and it happens.

It happens to me when I play guitar, some days things will flow out and seem effortless, other days for no apparent reason I'll struggle with the same songs, it can be frustrating.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on April 15, 2017, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 15, 2017, 07:01:42 AM
At most he looks more frustrated than anything else which I can totally understand, he seemed to be struggling a bit. It's no big deal and it happens.

It happens to me when I play guitar, some days things will flow out and seem effortless, other days for no apparent reason I'll struggle with the same songs, it can be frustrating.

Yeah same. One of my favorite quotes is what JMX said in #10 here:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/dream_theaters_john_myung_my_top_10_tips_for_playing_bass.html

"Everyone has bad days and it's important to recognize when you're having one with your bass" Applies to any other instrument as well
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 15, 2017, 11:19:09 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on April 15, 2017, 06:43:39 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 14, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
I think the discussion point here shouldn't be James' facial expresions, but the fact that they insist on playing the IAW songs, knowing that James isn't going to be able to pull them off consistently night alter night. It's not rocket science, guys  :huh:

My opinion, but I think this is the last of most of those songs live.  I think the mix of poor attendance on that last TA leg and some general negativity towards the band plus the timing of 25th anniversary of their most popular album, it just made sense for them to hit the road again honoring the album and mixing in some other fan wanted songs to invigorate the fan base again.  It seems to mostly be working even if the performances aren't perfect.  I personally can not wait for them to announce NA dates so I can catch my all time favorite album live, perfect or not.  When this is over, I doubt we get the opportunity to see a lot of these songs again.

I think you're right, they've played these songs waaaaay too much over the last 25 years that retiring them from the setlists for a few year will do no harm. I really hope they stop playing the IAW songs, as well as AIA, TSCO, and the other songs they've been playing a lot in the last years. They have a catalog big enough to play completely different songs on  every tour without repeating them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
Huh?  They didn't play anything from I&W on the DT12 tour and most of the TA tour (nada until the last month when they made the encore three old songs).  They have done an outstanding job of not repeating too many songs from tour to tour since Mangini joined the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 15, 2017, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
Huh?  They didn't play anything from I&W on the DT12 tour and most of the TA tour (nada until the last month when they made the encore three old songs).  They have done an outstanding job of not repeating too many songs from tour to tour since Mangini joined the band.

On the ADTOE tour they played almost all of IAW, also, their most played songs of all time are IAW songs (you can see that at Setlist.fm). They've played TSCO on the ADTOE tour, their 2015 tour, the TA tour and played it a couple times on this tour. Same thing goes for AIA.
BAI was played on the ADTOE tour, the DT12 tour and is being played on the current tour. There's more examples, but I think these are enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2017, 01:01:31 PM
About the I&W songs being the most played in their history... well, it's their second album and it's vastly and overwhemingly more popular than the debut. Sure they relied a lot on those songs, but at a certain point it's just a matter of math.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on April 15, 2017, 02:25:23 PM
I expected a complete trainwreck going into that Another Day vid, but it was honestly ok to me. I'm not expecting him to hit those ultra high notes anymore, and a good chunk of the alternate melodies are well-chosen. Some not. Takes some time to figure out I suppose. Yeah he was obviously frustrated. As an experienced showman JLB undoubtedly knows that when things don't go as expected, 90% of the audience probably won't even notice if you keep acting like everything's totally fine. This time, he couldn't be bothered keeping up appearance. It happens to the best of us.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 15, 2017, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 15, 2017, 12:53:37 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on April 15, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
Huh?  They didn't play anything from I&W on the DT12 tour and most of the TA tour (nada until the last month when they made the encore three old songs).  They have done an outstanding job of not repeating too many songs from tour to tour since Mangini joined the band.

On the ADTOE tour they played almost all of IAW, also, their most played songs of all time are IAW songs (you can see that at Setlist.fm). They've played TSCO on the ADTOE tour, their 2015 tour, the TA tour and played it a couple times on this tour. Same thing goes for AIA.
BAI was played on the ADTOE tour, the DT12 tour and is being played on the current tour. There's more examples, but I think these are enough.

1. Like MirrorMask said, I&W is their 2nd oldest album, and the debut doesn't get a lot of live play for obvious reasons, so it really is just a matter of math.  Factor in that it is arguably their most popular album, and it having the most plays of any DT album makes total sense. 

2. Breaking All Illusions appears to be the most popular song of the Mangini era. Not sure why some think it is bad thing to play a crowd favorite. 

3. Number 2 also applies to The Spirit Carries On, which is ALWAYS loved by the live crowds.  Are we really going to complain about a band playing a song that most fans always love seeing?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 15, 2017, 03:19:54 PM
It's fine for a singer to sing and old song differently as they get older.  Us fans have to get over it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2017, 03:23:28 PM
Quote from: PixelDream on April 15, 2017, 02:25:23 PM
I expected a complete trainwreck going into that Another Day vid, but it was honestly ok to me.

Yeah, same here. Reading the comments before watching the video would make one think a cringeworthy and embarassing performance, while he did just fine and had just some issues of clarity and power here and there, without really ruining the song. No perfection but still quite acceptable, given the demanding song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: tarskian on April 15, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

This comment completely baffles me. I really don't see how any reasonable person could watch this vid and arrive at the conclusions that you did.

Edit: I don't want to come off as overly harsh, but it looks like James was giving it his all, and it sounded pretty rad to me. And yet you think that slightly flipping his microphone stand to the side is an indication of a "shitty attitude"? Jeez...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CB on April 15, 2017, 04:56:46 PM
Quote from: tarskian on April 15, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Quote from: Siddhartha on April 14, 2017, 09:34:20 AM
Just saw this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWru5RgVu4

To do what James do on that clip they should better stay at home. What a shitty attitude.

I´m starting to regret having to drive 900Km to see them at the end of the month.

This comment completely baffles me. I really don't see how any reasonable person could watch this vid and arrive at the conclusions that you did.

Edit: I don't want to come off as overly harsh, but it looks like James was giving it his all, and it sounded pretty rad to me. And yet you think that slightly flipping his microphone stand to the side is an indication of a "shitty attitude"? Jeez...

I was at that show (it must be the Hamburg show because of JRs headphones). I didn't see or feel a shitty attitude ... the audience was very satisfied. I remember I never saw JLB communicating that much with the audience ever before, he was very much into it, very intense. I could understand if someone who doesn't know the band and the song, just watching that video, might think JLB was in a bad mood, but he (as JP) has never been the happy smiling type on stage, and that's ok because that wouldn't fit DTs music and lyrics (imo).

I think he sang quite well in Hamburg, despite being ill. Reading some of the negative comments on youtube I just wonder what's the problem? The high note he screamed? (What's wong about that, it's a metal band!) His voice doesn't sound exactly like 25 years ago, that doesn't mean it's not as good, just different. It's the reaction of the live audience that matters anyway.

Nobody "has to"" drive 900 km to see the band...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 15, 2017, 05:43:56 PM
Siddartha, I was at that DT show in Madrid in 2014, and was equally frustrated. And I agree with you on your opinion about James' attitude on the video you posted. His frustration is not with the audienceor the gig, but with himself. But it still sucks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 15, 2017, 05:58:33 PM
::) What's worse :

i. James has a bad gig vocally but tries his best anyway and looks visibly frustrated at himself

ii. James has a bad gig vocally and acts like he's god's gift to singing is noticeably bored and giving 75% on stage
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 15, 2017, 06:06:14 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on April 15, 2017, 05:58:33 PM
::) What's worse :

i. James has a bad gig vocally but tries his best anyway and looks visibly frustrated at himself

ii. James has a bad gig vocally and acts like he's god's gift to singing is noticeably bored and giving 75% on stage

Both situations suck when you're a paying customer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on April 15, 2017, 06:17:33 PM
:angry: Dear James.

I paid my own cash to see Dream Theater perform and you were UNWELL!!!

How f'king dare you!!!

I expect a full refund !!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 15, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
I saw a Maiden concert where Bruce had the flu, and you could tell he was suffering. He said he was sick on the very first song, and didn't hit ANY of the high notes he's famous for. Did he kick the microphone like James does in that vídeo? Not even once. It's all about the attitude.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ravenfoul on April 15, 2017, 08:21:22 PM
Guys im gonna need a timestamp, not seeing this. Seems like an overreaction to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 15, 2017, 08:25:14 PM
Holy fuckballs. So, he had a slight moment of frustration. Get the fuck over it. Some of you sound like a bunch of self-righteous drama queens.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a4/5e/39/a45e3990ab08675ac33d7121429cbed7.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 15, 2017, 10:48:35 PM
Quote
(https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/DTFSCRATCH1_zpshvdkoe6t.jpg~original)
(original post since I could quote it directly) (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44903.2940)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on April 15, 2017, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 15, 2017, 08:25:14 PM
Holy fuckballs. So, he had a slight moment of frustration. Get the fuck over it. Some of you sound like a bunch of self-righteous drama queens.

No shit.  It's embarrassing to say the least how a few people are acting about nothing.  FFS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on April 16, 2017, 03:48:00 AM
That performance wasn't nearly as bad as the guys in the comments say, as far as I'm concerned. He didn't go for the studio version notes, but the ones that he went for were fairly solid. There were some pronunciation issues, and he did seem slightly frustrated with himself, but it wasn't tragic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CB on April 16, 2017, 07:26:14 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 15, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
I saw a Maiden concert where Bruce had the flu, and you could tell he was suffering. He said he was sick on the very first song, and didn't hit ANY of the high notes he's famous for. Did he kick the microphone like James does in that vídeo? Not even once. It's all about the attitude.

I don't see him kicking the microphone in that video...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 16, 2017, 07:52:38 AM
Much ado about 1 second of frustration.

I have performed in hundreds of gigs, and there are bad days and sometimes there are some very brief moments where frustration gets the better of you. It's just easier to spot today because everything is recorded on cellular phones. I bet those who were in the concert did not even notice that last second where the frustration showed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on April 16, 2017, 07:54:26 AM
To the complainers of JLB in the AD video.  Really??? I see no issue. :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 12:03:35 PM
The topic asked for controversial opinions, didn't It?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 06:45:25 PM
Like I said, some people expect everything to be rainbows and unicorns all of the time. It's no different from a batter striking out during a clutch opportunity and cursing at himself. It doesn't mean he has no class. It's frustration taken to an understandable level. Plain and simple. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.

Sorry, I should have known better than picking an argument with the guardian of all the right opinions!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 06:52:34 PM
(https://img.pandawhale.com/post-32861-Beavis-twerk-gif-dancing-Butth-kFft.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 07:06:41 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 06:52:34 PM
(https://img.pandawhale.com/post-32861-Beavis-twerk-gif-dancing-Butth-kFft.gif)

Nice try, but offering me your butt isn't going to change my opinion, dude. I'm happily married!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 07:29:18 PM
As you can see, I'd rather have the couch. Besides, if I was gay, I know I could do better than you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 16, 2017, 07:38:10 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.

Sorry, I should have known better than picking an argument with the guardian of all the right opinions!

Math wins here and you sir, are in the minority.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 07:49:17 PM
That's racial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 16, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
 :lol

Hey, % means something.    :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 08:09:14 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 07:29:18 PM
As you can see, I'd rather have the couch. Besides, if I was gay, I know I could do better than you.

I see... you were just teasing me then?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 07:38:10 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.

Sorry, I should have known better than picking an argument with the guardian of all the right opinions!

Math wins here and you sir, are in the minority.

No It doesn't
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 08:37:44 PM
(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/degrassi/images/b/b7/Shh.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130918213545)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 09:03:16 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 08:37:44 PM
(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/degrassi/images/b/b7/Shh.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130918213545)

Same for you
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 09:10:58 PM
 :lol  Great comeback, dearie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 16, 2017, 09:18:18 PM
What in the name of Nicolas Cage is going on in here?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 09:19:56 PM
Bridge dweller. I would like to tear out his soul and feed it to his next of kin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 09:25:03 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2017, 09:18:18 PM
What in the name of Nicolas Cage is going on in here?

It's people asking for controversial opinions and freaking out when they get one. Kinda like a "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" sketch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 16, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
A little bit back towards the OP topic, the tour is resuming in a few days. It will be interesting to hear a rested James.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 16, 2017, 09:53:30 PM
Quote from: rumborak on April 16, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
A little bit back towards the OP topic, the tour is resuming in a few days. It will be interesting to hear a rested James.

I concur. I like where he was going with Another Day - adjusting the melodies to better suit his voice. It's a bit rusty but it's wise and the more he does it, the easier it'll be for him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 16, 2017, 10:20:24 PM
I really hope they change at least 1 or 2 songs from the "beyond" part of the setlist for this leg of the tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on April 17, 2017, 05:29:46 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 16, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
A little bit back towards the OP topic, the tour is resuming in a few days. It will be interesting to hear a rested James.

I'm going tomorrow evening, first show of their return. Will let you know.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 17, 2017, 06:44:59 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 07:38:10 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.

Sorry, I should have known better than picking an argument with the guardian of all the right opinions!

Math wins here and you sir, are in the minority.

No It doesn't

Is this a Monty Python skit? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 17, 2017, 07:02:46 AM
Multiple pages about James' expression after singing a line in Another Day, I love it  :lol

Also - to me, he didn't look frustrated at all. The song is about JP's dad getting diagnosed with cancer, it's a pretty emotional and heavy song lyrically if you understand the meaning behind it. He just merely looked like he was singing about a serious, emotional topic and emoting as such.

What did you want James to do - sing a song about the guitar players father being diagnosed with the illness that eventually killed him while running around smiling and pumping the crowd up? Wrong song in the set for that - try the one they did before this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on April 17, 2017, 08:48:06 AM
Mikey, I think it's an interpretation issue. I was in awe with James' attitude in the ADTOE and self-titled tours. He seemed really motivated by the changes in the band at the time, and it definitely showed in his stage presence. But recently It seems to me that he's back to the mid-2000's when it seemed that the last place he wanted to be was on stage singing those songs. Notice how I used "seem" a lot in my post. I think that music, and most of all, music fandom, is rather interpretative, and that's how I perceive his attitude at the moment. So let's agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 17, 2017, 09:05:54 AM
Isn't James always serious when he sings Another Day?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s454AqHEu8I
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 17, 2017, 09:33:54 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 17, 2017, 08:48:06 AM
Mikey, I think it's an interpretation issue. I was in awe with James' attitude in the ADTOE and self-titled tours. He seemed really motivated by the changes in the band at the time, and it definitely showed in his stage presence. But recently It seems to me that he's back to the mid-2000's when it seemed that the last place he wanted to be was on stage singing those songs. Notice how I used "seem" a lot in my post. I think that music, and most of all, music fandom, is rather interpretative, and that's how I perceive his attitude at the moment. So let's agree to disagree.

Oh yeah, I totally agree, it's definitely an interpretation issue. We are all sitting behind keyboards trying to determine how James was feeling based off of a YouTube video. Not an exact science for sure. To me, I didn't take it as frustrated, I took it as part of that particular song's mood.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 17, 2017, 09:36:44 AM
Good grief.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shooters1221 on April 17, 2017, 09:58:26 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 17, 2017, 09:05:54 AM
Isn't James always serious when he sings Another Day?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s454AqHEu8I

My interpretation of this James thing is watching this video compared to the newer one, James seems to hit most of the notes that he doesn't in the latest one and he is frustrated with himself about it and I really don't have any issues with that at all. That's JMO, but I don't see him frustrated in the Holiday video, yes he's serious, of course, due to the lyric.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 17, 2017, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 17, 2017, 06:44:59 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 07:38:10 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on April 16, 2017, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2017, 05:09:00 PM
Controversial,  yes.

Bashed accordingly,  yes.

Sorry, I should have known better than picking an argument with the guardian of all the right opinions!

Math wins here and you sir, are in the minority.

No It doesn't

Is this a Monty Python skit? :lol

No, it isn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 17, 2017, 11:20:01 AM
It sure feels like one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2017, 11:21:55 AM
No it doesn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 17, 2017, 11:24:31 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/yi7q9.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 17, 2017, 11:30:55 AM
Oh!  I'm in the wrong thread.  It's next door!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 17, 2017, 11:36:59 AM
 :lol

I have a somewhat controversial opinion actually. I think PMU was intentionally ended abruptly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2017, 04:04:38 PM
Um...it was intentional.  Fact not opinion.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 17, 2017, 05:33:50 PM
Once I saw MM not look at JP in a spot where he usually does. Pretty sure it's because the day before JP cut in line at the breakfast table, snagging the last sausage links. A friend who knows the band told me, it's legit. I think the band is breaking up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2017, 05:35:50 PM
Lies!

It was bacon. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 17, 2017, 05:38:48 PM
Dude, I can't name names, but my source is rock solid. He lives down the street from JP's guitar tech, that is, where the tech used to live. I mean, the *street name* is the same, it's actually a different city.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 17, 2017, 05:44:45 PM
It was a Lego My Eggo moment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM
I don't think James sounds that good at all anymore live.

His studio work is still great though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 17, 2017, 08:29:38 PM
I gotta disagree Zook. I haven't seen him in a few years but when he is on, he is on. I'm not the biggest JLB fan but I'll the first to say when he nails it, it's really something else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 18, 2017, 05:20:12 AM
Quote from: Zook on April 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM
I don't think James sounds that good at all anymore live.

His studio work is still great though.

I agree completely <3 <3 The last DVD was hard to listen to. I feel like Portnoy destroyed JB's voice, always pushing him to sing more aggresively and 'metal' in the studio doing 20 takes for each line, causing him to sing in an unnatural way, and now he has bad habits and sounds terrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 18, 2017, 05:48:26 AM
He's still consistent and good enough to enjoy the performances and appreciate his soft voice and the moments he actually hits those high notes. I know that "good enough" is not a standard for DT performances, but unless he's sick or has a really bad night, he's still enjoyable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 18, 2017, 06:12:16 AM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 05:20:12 AM
Quote from: Zook on April 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM
I don't think James sounds that good at all anymore live.

His studio work is still great though.

I agree completely <3 <3 The last DVD was hard to listen to. I feel like Portnoy destroyed JB's voice, always pushing him to sing more aggresively and 'metal' in the studio doing 20 takes for each line, causing him to sing in an unnatural way, and now he has bad habits and sounds terrible.

I know portnoy gets a lot of flak and a lot of times he deserves it but I don't think he destroyed jlb's voice
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 18, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 05:20:12 AM
The last DVD was hard to listen to.

Uhmm what? I can't get enough Finally Free, Strange Dejavu yet. Overall, better than Luna Park to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 18, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 05:20:12 AM
The last DVD was hard to listen to.

Uhmm what? I can't get enough Finally Free, Strange Dejavu yet. Overall, better than Luna Park to me.

That's why it's controversial....and also ridiculous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 18, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
I mean yeah, slight hyperbole to get my point across.. Singing is subjective to the point that anybody can enjoy anything, which is a good thing :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
I mean yeah, slight hyperbole to get my point across.. Singing is subjective to the point that anybody can enjoy anything, which is a good thing :)

I should have added the  ;D  after I said it was ridiculous. I was just being facetious. Personally, I love Breaking the Fourth Wall. It's not 10 out of 10, but I did enjoy it better that Luna Park.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 18, 2017, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
I mean yeah, slight hyperbole to get my point across.. Singing is subjective to the point that anybody can enjoy anything, which is a good thing :)

I should have added the  ;D  after I said it was ridiculous. I was just being facetious. Personally, I love Breaking the Fourth Wall. It's not 10 out of 10, but I did enjoy it better that Luna Park.

Yea, I also enjoy it more than Luna Park.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 01:05:15 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on April 18, 2017, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 18, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
I mean yeah, slight hyperbole to get my point across.. Singing is subjective to the point that anybody can enjoy anything, which is a good thing :)

I should have added the  ;D  after I said it was ridiculous. I was just being facetious. Personally, I love Breaking the Fourth Wall. It's not 10 out of 10, but I did enjoy it better that Luna Park.

Yea, I also enjoy it more than Luna Park.

If I remember correctly, Luna Park had that blue smurf issue in the beginning of the video. And of course there is the glaring sound problem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 18, 2017, 01:06:24 PM
Yea, it was mostly the poor sound that makes it less enjoyable than BtFW.  Both have awesome setlists and great performances though. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 01:53:05 PM
I agree. I guess we should be thankful it wasn't Chaos in Motion. The song selection was good, but not great. I loved that they played Blind Faith, Take the Time, TMoLS, etc. The ancillary footage was much more impressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 18, 2017, 02:56:04 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on April 18, 2017, 01:53:05 PM
I agree. I guess we should be thankful it wasn't Chaos in Motion. The song selection was good, but not great. I loved that they played Blind Faith, Take the Time, TMoLS, etc. The ancillary footage was much more impressive.

Yea the problem with CiM wasn't the setlists or performances either, but it was the audio AND video quality that was poor.  I also enjoyed a lot of that extra footage between songs too.  I'd love a high quality version of Blind Faith.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 05, 2017, 11:55:41 PM
Breaking All Illusions is better than any song on BCSL and SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 06, 2017, 01:00:14 AM
I'm not sure it's that controversial  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 06, 2017, 02:01:00 AM
I find BAI overrated and largely dull. Out of BCASL and SC, I'd maybe rate it over TBOT and POW, and that's it (and even then, the TBOT outro solo is actually better than all of BAI).


That's how you do it, boys. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 06, 2017, 02:22:17 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 05, 2017, 11:55:41 PM
Breaking All Illusions is better than any song on BCSL and SC.

Between those two albums, I only like The Count of Tuscany more, and I rate that song much higher than most people on here.

Actually, come to think of it, that would be one of my controversial opinions...

The Count of Tuscany is Dream Theater's second best song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 06, 2017, 03:50:53 AM
TCOT would have been great if the stanza and chorus is not so much below the quality of the other sections of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 06, 2017, 03:54:42 AM
I think the chorus is fine, but the verse sections I agree let down an otherwise incredible song. The opening instrumental in particular I think ranks up there with anything else they've done, as does that outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 06, 2017, 04:07:46 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 06, 2017, 03:54:42 AM
I think the chorus is fine, but the verse sections I agree let down an otherwise incredible song. The opening instrumental in particular I think ranks up there with anything else they've done, as does that outro.

In my opinion : The Count of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory.

I.T is just way too disjointed in the beginning and it pretty much copies the ambient section from the Count of Tuscany.

TCOT has that awesome verse riff and IT changes riffs every few bars, which is a bit annoying to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 06, 2017, 04:51:23 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 06, 2017, 04:07:46 AM
In my opinion : The Count of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory.

Mine too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 06, 2017, 05:26:54 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 06, 2017, 03:50:53 AM
TCOT would have been great if the stanza and chorus is not so much below the quality of the other sections of the song.

Agreed. Minutes 4-9 (roughly) not being nearly as good as the intro or the last half of the song prevent me from ranking it too highly anymore. I still think the song does a great job of not feeling overly long; those 19 minutes really do fly by quickly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 06:26:50 AM
I"m listening through the entire DT discography at the moment and just got to Six Degrees and here are my thoughts so far:

- Awake really didn't age well, probably the worst album of the 90's
- It's a shame "The Way It Used To Be" didn't make it on a official album because that is a Top 5 DT song and their best pop oriented song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 06, 2017, 08:06:58 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 06:26:50 AM
I"m listening through the entire DT discography at the moment and just got to Six Degrees and here are my thoughts so far:

- Awake really didn't age well, probably the worst album of the 90's

no u
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 06, 2017, 08:56:55 AM
Quote from: Zook on May 06, 2017, 08:06:58 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 06:26:50 AM
I"m listening through the entire DT discography at the moment and just got to Six Degrees and here are my thoughts so far:

- Awake really didn't age well, probably the worst album of the 90's

no u
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on May 06, 2017, 10:05:24 AM
I know it's controversial but come on! Awake is the best them!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 06, 2017, 10:23:21 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 06:26:50 AM
I"m listening through the entire DT discography at the moment and just got to Six Degrees and here are my thoughts so far:

- Awake really didn't age well, probably the worst album of the 90's
- It's a shame "The Way It Used To Be" didn't make it on a official album because that is a Top 5 DT song and their best pop oriented song.

I started doing the same exact thing a few days ago, wanted to listen to the whole catalog again, in chronological order, to see how my opinions/ranking of them would change. I've almost finished listening TOT. However, I don't really agree with what you posted  :lol

Some things I noticed listening up to this point:

- Used to like FII more, but listening to all of it again made me realize it drags on some parts. It has some great moments on it, but some other things just don't work as well.

- Also, looks like it was on this album where MP developed his own "signature" sound/playing. On all the previous albums his approach to drumming was different and varied from album to album, while still sounding like MP. FII looks, to me, like the abum where he found the style he liked and just stopped exploring his drumming after it. Though, I enjoy his drumming on Awake/ACOS much more, specially his use of the octobans. FII sounds like he used the same tricks on almost all the songs. It gets tiring after a while.

- SFAM and SDOIT are probably the best albums of their catalog, and definitely the best up to this point (imo). It seemed like that lineup could only make perfect abums like these, but TOT started a downfall imo. To me, listening to an album like TOT after the masterpiece that is SDOIT is a huge disappointment. They completely under-used Jordan, who had insanely good moments on both SFAM and SDOIT (his playing is one of the main aspects why I think these two albums are that good), and had him relegated to mostly doubling the guitar on many songs and playing a few leads/solos .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 11:39:35 AM
I agree with MP not evolving much past FII
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 06, 2017, 12:38:53 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on May 06, 2017, 10:05:24 AM
I know it's controversial but come on! Awake is the best them!  :metal

Nah Awake is boring after the opening 3 songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 06, 2017, 12:43:30 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 06, 2017, 12:38:53 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on May 06, 2017, 10:05:24 AM
I know it's controversial but come on! Awake is the best them!  :metal

Nah Awake is boring after the opening 3 songs.

The album actually gets good after the sixth song ends.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 06, 2017, 12:47:40 PM
Awake is good all the way through, although it loses a bit of steam at Space Dye Vest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 06, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 06, 2017, 12:47:40 PM
Awake is good all the way through, although it loses a bit of steam at Space Dye Vest.

I think you're being too kind. I'll say that the album becomes completely unlistenable after Space Dye Vest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 06, 2017, 01:00:57 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c4/cb/68/c4cb682c2da4eb2830d0d257e5ff3d02.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 06, 2017, 01:18:55 PM
Quote from: Adami on May 06, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 06, 2017, 12:47:40 PM
Awake is good all the way through, although it loses a bit of steam at Space Dye Vest.

I think you're being too kind. I'll say that the album becomes completely unlistenable after Space Dye Vest.

What you did there. I see it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 06, 2017, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 11:39:35 AM
I agree with MP not evolving much past FII

He became the good drummer version of Lars Ulrich  :lol :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 06, 2017, 02:04:54 PM
Really? I mean he had a style, which is not a bad thing, but I'd say he largely stopped evolving after 6DOIT. There was some really creative new stuff on that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 02:11:33 PM
I think the one thing with MP is his style really fit with the band so it wasn't a big deal that he didn't really keep evolving. I BC&SL was the first album where I thought it was time for him to shake it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 06, 2017, 03:43:01 PM
I've said before FII is where the "MP" sound was really established, IMO. From there, I'd say he improved upon that with SFAM and SDOIT, with SDOIT probably being his peak work for me. After that he didn't expand much and typically tended to rely on the same feels and fills.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 06, 2017, 04:15:14 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 06, 2017, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 06, 2017, 11:39:35 AM
I agree with MP not evolving much past FII

He became the good drummer version of Lars Ulrich  :lol :biggrin:

Snare sound aside - Lars is really creative on St. Anger. Watch the DVD of that album - he's firing on all cylinders.

He plays with fire on St. Anger. On Death Magnetic he is actually a lot less creative and his limitations are showing. On Hardwired he went back to Black Album drumming

and played for the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 06, 2017, 07:55:13 PM
Watching the St Anger DVD  :tup
Listening to the St Anger CD  :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 07, 2017, 03:11:32 AM
A thread about CONTROVERSIAL opinions is the only one where I can live with any criticism towards Awake  :lol :biggrin:

Brilliant album through and through.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bill1971 on May 07, 2017, 07:11:09 AM
Couldn't agree less about Awake. Possibly my favorite DT album but that's the beauty of music, it hits different people different ways.

Interesting take on MP's drumming. He still had some great drum parts but even as he said he doesn't like to practice and it started to show. Drummers like Peart and Mangini continue to improve and to push themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 07, 2017, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 06, 2017, 03:54:42 AM
I think the chorus is fine, but the verse sections I agree let down an otherwise incredible song. The opening instrumental in particular I think ranks up there with anything else they've done, as does that outro.

My mistake. I was not referring to TCOT's chorus but rather the prechorus.

And the vocal melody of the verse section to my ears really sounds very similar to JLB's Crucified.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 07, 2017, 09:14:22 AM
Here's one.

There hasn't been a section of a DT song in a while that made me go "OH SHIT HERE IT COMES". Like... If I ever see The Glass Prison live, the beginning of the second section (the chugging and the psuedo "turn table" shit) would make me go nuts. Same with the "Day After Day ROOOOARRRR" section of A Nightmare To Remember.

I miss the anticipation.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 07, 2017, 09:46:07 AM
I hope they continue in the same direction as The Astonishing. I don't mean specifically in style, more along the lines of experimenting and trying stuff. The two albums before it were just a bore 'playing it safe please the fans, it's not bad but it's not good either'-fest
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 07, 2017, 12:09:05 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 09:46:07 AM
I hope they continue in the same direction as The Astonishing. I don't mean specifically in style, more along the lines of experimenting and trying stuff. The two albums before it were just a bore 'playing it safe please the fans, it's not bad but it's not good either'-fest

ADTOE is one of their best albums, so I disagree that it was a bore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 07, 2017, 01:27:43 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 07, 2017, 12:09:05 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 09:46:07 AM
I hope they continue in the same direction as The Astonishing. I don't mean specifically in style, more along the lines of experimenting and trying stuff. The two albums before it were just a bore 'playing it safe please the fans, it's not bad but it's not good either'-fest

ADTOE is one of their best albums, so I disagree that it was a bore.

It was certainly a lot better than the two that preceded it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 07, 2017, 01:34:13 PM
Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:45:19 PM
But... BCASL has actual interesting songs. ADTOE is more background music to put on while you do something else. I suppose it's better for driving, or if you're with friends and want to put something inoffensive on. Whereas with BCASL, the prog-fan might blush when an interesting part comes on and rush to change the CD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 07, 2017, 02:46:51 PM
Black Clouds has A Nightmare to Remember and Rite of Passage...




Dramatic Turn does not.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:50:04 PM
Rite of Passage is the only (arguably) 'weak' song on that album. ADTOE has eight
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 07, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:50:04 PM
Rite of Passage is the only (arguably) 'weak' song on that album. ADTOE has eight

Eight ? Please list them.

The Best Of Times is saved by the solo. Nightmare is far too long and has THAT vocal section. Wither is good. A Rite of Passage is kinda throwaway... Shattered Fortress is just a medley.

Count of Tuscany is the best song on the album for me.

Oh and TCOT verse riff is the best riff on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 07, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:45:19 PM
But... BCASL has actual interesting songs. ADTOE is more background music to put on while you do something else. I suppose it's better for driving, or if you're with friends and want to put something inoffensive on. Whereas with BCASL, the prog-fan might blush when an interesting part comes on and rush to change the CD

What does that even mean?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 07, 2017, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 07, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:50:04 PM
Rite of Passage is the only (arguably) 'weak' song on that album. ADTOE has eight

Eight ? Please list them.

The Best Of Times is saved by the solo. Nightmare is far too long and has THAT vocal section. Wither is good. A Rite of Passage is kinda throwaway... Shattered Fortress is just a medley.

Count of Tuscany is the best song on the album for me.

Oh and TCOT verse riff is the best riff on the album.

Okay, here's my personal problem; there's not much variety within each song, I can barely remember anything besides the choruses of each song. I'd probably like Build Me Up, Break Me Down, but all I think of is this - https://youtu.be/iP6XpLQM2Cs?t=135 . Feels like scraping the bottom of the barrel... Beneath The Surface and Far From Heaven are pretty cool ballads though! Also bear in mind I'm a new fan; I listened to all the albums for the first time last year and loved all of them until ADTOE, sadly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 07, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
How the heck is BMU,BMD (whether you like it or not) similar to bloody Kesha?  :lol

No variety within each song?
LNF has the (love it or hate it) wank intro and then I guess it gets kinda samey and overly long for my taste, I'll give you that.
BITS has probably the best riff on the album and one of DT's best choruses + an amazing instrumental section.
Ouctry has the crazy instrumental and a sweet soft part right after it.
I won't even have to comment on BAI. If you say that song has no variety, wat?
BTS is a ballad, and there's still something to look forward to in James' vocal delivery of the last chorus.

Saying there is no variety within each song is a pretty weird arguement. Even though they are progressive, most DT songs follow a basic A-B-A-B-instrumental-B-outro structure, so you could apply this logic to basically any album. That's like complaining that there are verses and choruses in a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 07, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
Regarding the sameness of TDOE, I have to agree a bit.

I actually do like the album a lot, but even though I've listened to the songs a ton, when I'm just going over songs like LNF, BiTS, or even Outcry, they honestly all just kind of blent together to me. I know they aren't the same, but I find myself forgetting which part goes to which song and that they can be pretty interchangeable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 07, 2017, 06:43:03 PM
I actually might like ANTR over them all. I love that song. It's also one reason why I'm into DT these days.

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 06, 2017, 02:22:17 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 05, 2017, 11:55:41 PM
Breaking All Illusions is better than any song on BCSL and SC.

Between those two albums, I only like The Count of Tuscany more, and I rate that song much higher than most people on here.

Actually, come to think of it, that would be one of my controversial opinions...

The Count of Tuscany is Dream Theater's second best song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 07, 2017, 08:17:17 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 07, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:45:19 PM
But... BCASL has actual interesting songs. ADTOE is more background music to put on while you do something else. I suppose it's better for driving, or if you're with friends and want to put something inoffensive on. Whereas with BCASL, the prog-fan might blush when an interesting part comes on and rush to change the CD

What does that even mean?

Does he say curse word? Or if you play the CD backwards are there DT orgy outtakes or something? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 07, 2017, 09:15:31 PM
It's like he doesn't even understand prog fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 07, 2017, 09:32:08 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

Why is it pretentious? Because they don't write monosyllabic lyrics? I'm not sure what the point is, though it wouldn't surprise if the lack thereof is creating this confusion. You need to unlearn to learn.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 07, 2017, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
BOI
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 08, 2017, 12:10:35 AM
(https://us.v-cdn.net/5017260/uploads/editor/ui/niry2kk0iwen.png)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.

I wish, it's random words put together that rhyme with no understanding of theme or meter, while also taking itself very, very seriously. 'Let me introduce, my brother!' is a much better choice of direction, lyrically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 08, 2017, 03:16:17 AM
If you think poetry is all about conforming to set standards, you've already lost the battle.

(https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/35600000/-Excuse-me-To-who-may-be-concern-you-re-making-a-great-mistake-if-you-think-that-you-can-beat-me-elijah-35622343-500-260.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 08, 2017, 05:06:12 AM
Speaking of reverse orgy, the moaning in the bridge of Home is really terrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.

I wish, it's random words put together that rhyme with no understanding of theme or meter, while also taking itself very, very seriously. 'Let me introduce, my brother!' is a much better choice of direction, lyrically.

The words are not random. It's about how in a time of trouble (there's a test of faith), introspection and deep reflection (streams of thought awaken) can lead to moments of enlightenment (singularities) that open your mind to new possibilities (new realities) that transcend your habituated way of looking at the problem (breaking all illusions).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 08, 2017, 05:48:42 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on May 08, 2017, 03:16:17 AM
If you think poetry is all about conforming to set standards, you've already lost the battle.

(https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/35600000/-Excuse-me-To-who-may-be-concern-you-re-making-a-great-mistake-if-you-think-that-you-can-beat-me-elijah-35622343-500-260.gif)

My controversial opinion is that you overuse gifs. :neverusethis:
/banter
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 08, 2017, 05:59:28 AM
(https://media.tenor.co/images/4958a88749c6dc428ac8d4e5ffdb33a7/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 08, 2017, 06:04:28 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 08, 2017, 05:06:12 AM
Speaking of reverse orgy, the moaning in the bridge of Home is really terrible.

That's one of the times we all blush and rush to change the cd (where's that copy of ADTOE...)  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 08, 2017, 11:00:33 AM
Quote from: Adami on May 07, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
Regarding the sameness of TDOE, I have to agree a bit.

I actually do like the album a lot, but even though I've listened to the songs a ton, when I'm just going over songs like LNF, BiTS, or even Outcry, they honestly all just kind of blent together to me. I know they aren't the same, but I find myself forgetting which part goes to which song and that they can be pretty interchangeable.

Did you mean ADTOE?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 08, 2017, 11:03:59 AM
The Dance of Eternity is so repetitive and bland that is makes AC/DC sound progressive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 08, 2017, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 08, 2017, 11:00:33 AM
Quote from: Adami on May 07, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
Regarding the sameness of TDOE, I have to agree a bit.

I actually do like the album a lot, but even though I've listened to the songs a ton, when I'm just going over songs like LNF, BiTS, or even Outcry, they honestly all just kind of blent together to me. I know they aren't the same, but I find myself forgetting which part goes to which song and that they can be pretty interchangeable.

Did you mean ADTOE?

I did! Good catch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 08, 2017, 11:34:34 AM
Quote from: Zook on May 08, 2017, 11:03:59 AM
The Dance of Eternity is so repetitive and bland that is makes AC/DC sound progressive.

I think Riff Raff is one of the best rock/blues riffs of all time, it's a great song until the vocals come in, at which point I turn it off

Dance Of Eternity is pretty cool, I love the Budokan version, I might go listen to it again sometime

Hi mom
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 08, 2017, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Prog Snob on May 07, 2017, 08:17:17 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 07, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 02:45:19 PM
But... BCASL has actual interesting songs. ADTOE is more background music to put on while you do something else. I suppose it's better for driving, or if you're with friends and want to put something inoffensive on. Whereas with BCASL, the prog-fan might blush when an interesting part comes on and rush to change the CD

What does that even mean?

Does he say curse word? Or if you play the CD backwards are there DT orgy outtakes or something?

I bet Jmx is a power bottom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
Did anyone else notice that James Laurie used auto tune on the new album? WTF I lost respect for him after that  :censored :censored :censored
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 09, 2017, 08:37:26 AM
Brother of Hugh?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 09, 2017, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
Did anyone else notice that James Laurie used auto tune on the new album? WTF I lost respect for him after that  :censored :censored :censored
???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 08:41:29 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 08:44:08 AM
Um.. Hate to tell you this but pretty much every major album has vocal correction.

It's just what you do nowadays to make a perfect studio album...

Hey you tune guitars and drums - why not vocals ?

You do multiple guitar solos and comp the best takes together but a singer has to be perfect every time ?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
In the gift of music Labrie says people just don't have the TTIEIEIEUUME for music. WTF? How did petrucci not catch that? That ruined the album for me IMHO
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
In the gift of music Labrie says people just don't have the TTIEIEIEUUME for music. WTF? How did petrucci not catch that? That ruined the album for me IMHO

That was discussed here before the album was released I believe. Bosk can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he asked JP about that and John said there actually wasn't a pitch correction effect on that line.

Also - one word ruined a whole double album for you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 08:51:44 AM
One single crotchet in two hours and ten minutes ruined the entire album ?


Ok dude.

@mikeyd :hifive:



Is PB1 Mike Portnoy ?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 09, 2017, 08:57:06 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
In the gift of music Labrie says people just don't have the TTIEIEIEUUME for music. WTF? How did petrucci not catch that? That ruined the album for me IMHO

That was discussed here before the album was released I believe. Bosk can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he asked JP about that and John said there actually wasn't a pitch correction effect on that line.
Correct.  There are no vocal effects on that line AT ALL.  It is just an odd pronunciation by James. 

Quote from: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Also - one word ruined a whole double album for you?
:lol  No kidding!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2017, 08:57:10 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:32:31 AM
Did anyone else notice that James Laurie used auto tune on the new album? WTF I lost respect for him after that  :censored :censored :censored

Then you should also lose respect for every album (including all of DT's) from at least the past 15 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nekov on May 09, 2017, 08:59:10 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 08:51:44 AM

Is PB1 Mike Portnoy ?

Not sure if he's Portnoy or not, but he's heading for a fast exit out of here
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 09:02:19 AM
do you have a link to that interview? bc it sounds very processed/unnatural to me. not saying your wrong tho. and yes i was exaggerating about it ruining the album for me. this is the controversial opinions thread after all :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 09, 2017, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 09:02:19 AM
do you have a link to that interview? bc it sounds very processed/unnatural to me. not saying your wrong tho. and yes i was exaggerating about it ruining the album for me. this is the controversial opinions thread after all :loser:
It wasn't an interview.  Somebody on the forum suggested that it sounded unnatural, so I asked JP and James about it myself.  I was told unequivocally that there are no effects used on that line.  It just ended up sounding odd in the final mix for whatever reason. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 09, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.

I wish, it's random words put together that rhyme with no understanding of theme or meter, while also taking itself very, very seriously. 'Let me introduce, my brother!' is a much better choice of direction, lyrically.

The words are not random. It's about how in a time of trouble (there's a test of faith), introspection and deep reflection (streams of thought awaken) can lead to moments of enlightenment (singularities) that open your mind to new possibilities (new realities) that transcend your habituated way of looking at the problem (breaking all illusions).

I think you nailed it with the explanation, but I find it funny that the words you used sound a lot like STR:
"In moments of pain
Where heart and mind collide
Self reflection helps me decide"

Or maybe this is a common theme on JM lyrics?  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:10:00 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 09, 2017, 09:10:43 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 09:02:19 AM
do you have a link to that interview? bc it sounds very processed/unnatural to me. not saying your wrong tho. and yes i was exaggerating about it ruining the album for me. this is the controversial opinions thread after all :loser:
It wasn't an interview.  Somebody on the forum suggested that it sounded unnatural, so I asked JP and James about it myself.  I was told unequivocally that there are no effects used on that line.  It just ended up sounding odd in the final mix for whatever reason.

As a sound engineer who has worked a whole lot with vocal tuning, I am going to disagree with them. I doubt they're lying, but I would be open to the possibility that they are merely incorrect. It happens. No big deal.

Also doesn't bother me really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on May 09, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
Lots of respected bands do it. As long as it isn't too obivious I'm fine with autotunning.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on May 09, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
Lots of respected bands do it. As long as it isn't too obivious I'm fine with autotunning.


Exactly. Auto tuning or using melodyne or something similar is beyond common. I would argue that the example we're talking about is an example of a bad artifact, which I've been guilty of myself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 09, 2017, 11:44:22 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
In the gift of music Labrie says people just don't have the TTIEIEIEUUME for music. WTF? How did petrucci not catch that? That ruined the album for me IMHO

That was discussed here before the album was released I believe. Bosk can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he asked JP about that and John said there actually wasn't a pitch correction effect on that line.

Also - one word ruined a whole double album for you?

While this could be correct, I would be hesitant to believe JP in such matters, as he said he didn't hear anything wrong with the 'take the evening to deci-ide' line after being told about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 09, 2017, 11:47:18 AM
I was bent on buying the album on release day and hearing NOTHING at all beforehand, so when The Gift of Music was released I remember reading all these comments and I was preparing myself for a very cringeworthy moment... and then I heard that infamous "time", even knowing what to expect, and it felt absolutely ok to me.

So either you're all overreacting or I'm deaf for these kind of nuances, and really, I'm fine either way  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 11:49:41 AM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:10:00 AM
As a sound engineer who has worked a whole lot with vocal tuning, I am going to disagree with them. I doubt they're lying, but I would be open to the possibility that they are merely incorrect. It happens. No big deal.

Quote from: Evai on May 09, 2017, 11:44:22 AM
While this could be correct, I would be hesitant to believe JP in such matters, as he said he didn't hear anything wrong with the 'take the evening to deci-ide' line after being told about it.

I think a couple people had the same reactions back when this was being discussed before and it still confuses me. You got an answer straight from the source, why wouldn't you believe him?

And for the record the only effect I have ever heard on that line is reverb, delay, and some sort of chorus, which could easily be what people are hearing, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
Because people can be wrong. I trust my ears quite a bit. I hear an artifact. It's very possible that the engineer did that without JPs knowledge.

It's VERY possible. The engineers are doing a lot of work without the band/producer looking over their shoulder.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 09, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
Because people can be wrong. I trust my ears quite a bit. I hear an artifact. It's very possible that the engineer did that without JPs knowledge.

It's VERY possible. The engineers are doing a lot of work without the band/producer looking over their shoulder.

For sure, and I get that you would trust your ears over pretty much anyone else saying something different, cause, what do they know? But when the producer of the record says it, I guess for me it carries more weight.

Really no big deal either way, I was just commenting. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 09, 2017, 12:04:02 PM
Yeah I never heard anything wrong with the 'time for music' line either, at least not anything out of the ordinary from the rest of the album. I just wouldn't base my opinion on what JP said (Falling Into Infinity was released exactly how we envisioned!)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2017, 12:09:01 PM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
Because people can be wrong. I trust my ears quite a bit. I hear an artifact. It's very possible that the engineer did that without JPs knowledge.

It's VERY possible. The engineers are doing a lot of work without the band/producer looking over their shoulder.

Exactly. JP obviously isn't lying, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's right either. Unless he were the one mixing/engineering the album, he wouldn't know a lot of these details, because that's not his role. And that's fine.

To comment on the actual part in question, I don't hear any obvious problem in this case. Sounds fine to me, and I'm usually the first to bitch about this stuff. :lol
Off the top of my head, the only pitch correction on the album that's blatant to me is A New Beginning. Sounds like a computer.
"...... as some kind of threat, but i know we were meant to be...."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 09, 2017, 12:33:07 PM
In any case, it's stylistically appropriate. Frozen had a decent amount of that pitch correction sound :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on May 09, 2017, 11:22:12 AM
Lots of respected bands do it. As long as it isn't too obivious I'm fine with autotunning.


Exactly. Auto tuning or using melodyne or something similar is beyond common. I would argue that the example we're talking about is an example of a bad artifact, which I've been guilty of myself.

It could even be a bad crossfade between takes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 09, 2017, 03:29:46 PM
Can somebody point out exactly the spot where this artifact is supposed to happen? I have heard the line many times, and frankly I just hear James' stylistic choice in singing the line.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 03:32:52 PM
The word "time" sounds like it kinda slows down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 09, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
In the gift of music Labrie says people just don't have the TTIEIEIEUUME for music. WTF? How did petrucci not catch that? That ruined the album for me IMHO

That's not even autotune. I could do that with just my voice & I can't even sing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 09, 2017, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 09, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.

I wish, it's random words put together that rhyme with no understanding of theme or meter, while also taking itself very, very seriously. 'Let me introduce, my brother!' is a much better choice of direction, lyrically.

The words are not random. It's about how in a time of trouble (there's a test of faith), introspection and deep reflection (streams of thought awaken) can lead to moments of enlightenment (singularities) that open your mind to new possibilities (new realities) that transcend your habituated way of looking at the problem (breaking all illusions).

I think you nailed it with the explanation, but I find it funny that the words you used sound a lot like STR:
"In moments of pain
Where heart and mind collide
Self reflection helps me decide"

Or maybe this is a common theme on JM lyrics?  :o

It is. Like this line in Trial of Tears.

"I may have wasted all those years
 They're not worth their time in tears
 I may have spent too long in darkness
 In the warmth of my fears
 And as I walk through all my myths
 Rising and sinking like the waves
 With my thoughts wrapped around me
 Through a trial of tears"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 09, 2017, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 09, 2017, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 09, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 08, 2017, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 08, 2017, 12:15:39 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 07, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Okay, I'm looking over the lyrics to BOI, and... I think if it was 90's James, singing it at such a high pitch that it sounds awesome, it would work for me. But James sings lower now, and lower, less intense singing brings more attention to the lyrics, and storytelling aspects of it. Because it's more like speech. 'New realities, singularities, breaking all illusions' as a verse just sounds insincere (not gonna use the word 'pretentious'... ) Who talks like that? This is also why The Astonishing works so well.

It's not pretentious. It's called poetry.

I wish, it's random words put together that rhyme with no understanding of theme or meter, while also taking itself very, very seriously. 'Let me introduce, my brother!' is a much better choice of direction, lyrically.

The words are not random. It's about how in a time of trouble (there's a test of faith), introspection and deep reflection (streams of thought awaken) can lead to moments of enlightenment (singularities) that open your mind to new possibilities (new realities) that transcend your habituated way of looking at the problem (breaking all illusions).

I think you nailed it with the explanation, but I find it funny that the words you used sound a lot like STR:
"In moments of pain
Where heart and mind collide
Self reflection helps me decide"

Or maybe this is a common theme on JM lyrics?  :o

It is. Like this line in Trial of Tears.

"I may have wasted all those years
 They're not worth their time in tears
 I may have spent too long in darkness
 In the warmth of my fears
 And as I walk through all my myths
 Rising and sinking like the waves
 With my thoughts wrapped around me
 Through a trial of tears"

Mindblown  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 09, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 03:32:52 PM
The word "time" sounds like it kinda slows down.

Wait, the glissando? That's obviously intentional by James.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 09, 2017, 08:57:49 PM
We've heard James live so we know studio vocals are autotuned. And who cares?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2017, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 09, 2017, 08:57:49 PM
We've heard James live so we know studio vocals are autotuned. And who cares?

Excellent point. Who cares?

Aside from that one dude who can't wait to turn 21, no one (to my knowledge) is saying that the autotune thing is a negative or an insult or anything like that. It's just an observation. I'm not sure why some people are being so defensive about it. Because, as our wise King points out.....who cares?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 09, 2017, 09:19:41 PM
I don't mind it at all on official albums. Do whatever it takes to get the result you want. I do however find it lamentable, for any band, when it's used for live albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 09, 2017, 10:37:46 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 09, 2017, 09:19:41 PM
I don't mind it at all on official albums. Do whatever it takes to get the result you want. I do however find it lamentable, for any band, when it's used for live albums.

I have no problem with it for live albums either, as long as it's applied to the original live vocal, and not too overdone. When a singer only gets one take under live conditions, it's not all going to be perfect, so I don't mind them using autotune to smooth it out a bit. It still represents what they sound like live, but without the pressure of one individual performance defining how they sounded on an entire tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 11:27:01 PM
Is it just me or does Labrie sound mediocre live now. Seems like he's losing control of his voice. Maybe he should sing an octave lower? Just a thought
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 11:27:01 PM
Is it just me or does Labrie sound mediocre live now. Seems like he's losing control of his voice. Maybe he should sing an octave lower? Just a thought

You're doing great. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 10, 2017, 04:42:14 AM
(from the day they joined the band)

Labrie: 60% ability lost
JP: 20% ability lost
Myung: 10% ability lost
Mangini: 3% ability gained
Rudess: 5% ability gained
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 10, 2017, 04:54:33 AM
MP : 100% membership lost
100% respect lost
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 10, 2017, 04:55:51 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 09, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 09, 2017, 03:32:52 PM
The word "time" sounds like it kinda slows down.

Wait, the glissando? That's obviously intentional by James.

Yes but it just sounds odd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 10, 2017, 06:32:51 AM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 11:27:01 PM
Is it just me or does Labrie sound mediocre live now. Seems like he's losing control of his voice. Maybe he should sing an octave lower? Just a thought

You're doing great. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Definitely doing great  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 10, 2017, 08:20:30 AM
Doing my discography listen, MP's vocals are a great touch in constant motion
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Another Day on I&Ws is a stronger song then Pull Me Under.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 10, 2017, 02:57:49 PM
Quote from: Adami on May 09, 2017, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: PB1 on May 09, 2017, 11:27:01 PM
Is it just me or does Labrie sound mediocre live now. Seems like he's losing control of his voice. Maybe he should sing an octave lower? Just a thought

You're doing great. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

im just sayin', he cant seem to find the right note anymore. listen to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF5BEcahu2Q

dont get me wrong, he sounds great on the cds, but live... not so much IMHO
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Another Day on I&Ws is a stronger song then Pull Me Under.

Anything on that album is better than PMU as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 10, 2017, 03:50:28 PM
Woah, what's wrong with PMU? Some really nice structured songwriting combined with actual poetic lyrics, it's kind of a high point for DT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:55:50 PM
I'm not a fan of the chorus vocal hook. Dunno I just find the song kinda boring after the amazing intro and first verse go by.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 10, 2017, 04:16:25 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:55:50 PM
I'm not a fan of the chorus vocal hook. Dunno I just find the song kinda boring after the amazing intro and first verse go by.

I'm with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 10, 2017, 05:45:59 PM
People just don't have the time for Pull Me Under anymore :/

And no-one seems to care :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 10, 2017, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Another Day on I&Ws is a stronger song then Pull Me Under.

Anything on that album is better than PMU as far as I am concerned.

In that album, the only song I like less is Learning to Live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on May 10, 2017, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Another Day on I&Ws is a stronger song then Pull Me Under.

Anything on that album is better than PMU as far as I am concerned.

In that album, the only song I like less is Learning to Live.


Fair enough I suppose but for me Learning to Live and Take the Time are the strongest on the Album
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 10, 2017, 07:40:10 PM
I think another day is one of the weakest tracks on I&W
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on May 10, 2017, 08:03:08 PM
Since when did I&W become controversial?  Everything on that album is gold! :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: Another_Won on May 10, 2017, 08:03:08 PM
Since when did I&W become controversial?  Everything on that album is gold! :)

Yes indeed it is. I love it. IT never gets old. Even today! Just Another Day for me is stronger then Pull Me Under...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 10, 2017, 08:41:38 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 10, 2017, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: JaceTestify on May 10, 2017, 08:49:07 AM
Another Day on I&Ws is a stronger song then Pull Me Under.

Anything on that album is better than PMU as far as I am concerned.

Pretty much. Except for Wait for Sleep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 05:07:09 AM
Quote from: Another_Won on May 10, 2017, 08:03:08 PM
Since when did I&W become controversial?  Everything on that album is gold! :)

naw it's not, another day is a good song and I don't really care for surrounded.

Systematic Chaos > I&W
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 11, 2017, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 05:07:09 AM
Quote from: Another_Won on May 10, 2017, 08:03:08 PM
Since when did I&W become controversial?  Everything on that album is gold! :)

naw it's not, another day is a good song and I don't really care for surrounded.

Systematic Chaos > I&W

Black Clouds > SFAM

Two can play at this game
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 05:14:59 AM
On some days I agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 11, 2017, 05:21:16 AM
Is this one of them?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
Surrounded is crap.

As is most of Awake.

I've tried but after song 3 it's a snooze fest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 06:50:43 AM
I don't think Awake is crap, I just don't think it's aged well. Compared to other DT albums it doesn't hold up as well
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 11, 2017, 07:50:26 AM
I think Awake is maybe the album that could benefit from a remaster.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2017, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 05:07:09 AM
Systematic Chaos > I&W
*faints*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 11, 2017, 08:11:08 AM
I actually like Awake's production and mixing. It feels pretty raw and dark, it serves the album pretty well.
It's the actual musical quality of about 50% of the album that makes me stay away from it for the most part.

I don't get why SDOIT's production is praised so much on the other hand. I'm really not a big fan of the drum sound, especially the kick drums, it works okay on songs like The Great Debate, but god that TGP breakdown sounds terrible drum-wise (especially those punch-ins, you can tell very easily that's not one take).
It's nice to hear Myung and Rudess clearly for once though.

TOT is my favourite production if you're going for heaviness and Octavarium / ADTOE are probably the best for the overall DT sound imho.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 11, 2017, 09:02:32 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
Surrounded is crap.

As is most of Awake.

I've tried but after song 3 it's a snooze fest.

Quote
12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc.
  "Controversial opinions" does not mean "rules do not apply." 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 09:11:09 AM
Breaking the rules is certainly controversial :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 11, 2017, 10:13:34 AM
Also here is another controversial Dream Theater opinion... Derek Sherinian was the best keyboardist DT ever had. Kevin Moore was the second best, and Jordan is third.... To me Derek had the most soul and ability out of all of them.

But Jordan is amazing in every way don't get me wrong
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 11, 2017, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 11, 2017, 08:11:08 AM
I don't get why SDOIT's production is praised so much on the other hand. I'm really not a big fan of the drum sound, especially the kick drums, it works okay on songs like The Great Debate, but god that TGP breakdown sounds terrible drum-wise (especially those punch-ins, you can tell very easily that's not one take).
It's nice to hear Myung and Rudess clearly for once though.

The bolded is why I really like the sonics on SDOIT. The balance of the instruments just feels right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on May 11, 2017, 11:21:51 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2017, 07:50:26 AM
I think Awake is maybe the album that could benefit from a remaster.

Could not disagree more. I find Awake to be one of the best sounding DT albums, perfect balance of heaviness and atmosphere.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 11, 2017, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on May 11, 2017, 11:21:51 AM
Quote from: rumborak on May 11, 2017, 07:50:26 AM
I think Awake is maybe the album that could benefit from a remaster.

Could not disagree more. I find Awake to be one of the best sounding DT albums, perfect balance of heaviness and atmosphere.

What he said. Wonderful sound and not outdated at all to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 11:53:01 AM
Next album : songs of Train of thought with the production of Falling Into Infinity.


:drool:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 11, 2017, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
Surrounded is crap.

As is most of Awake.

I've tried but after song 3 it's a snooze fest.

Lmao

 :rollin

Wait. Are you serious  :| :eek :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 11, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 11:53:01 AM
Next album : songs of Train of thought with the production of Falling Into Infinity.


:drool:
Well, ANYTHING with the production of FII would sound awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 11, 2017, 12:58:38 PM
A big part of FII's sound is the lack of JP's giant 'chocolate cake' tone that takes over most of the mix. I don't think he wants to give that up :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 01:10:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 06:27:14 AM
Surrounded is crap.

As is most of Awake.

I've tried but after song 3 it's a snooze fest.

But you actually like TA?  That's Astonishing!!!  :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 11, 2017, 01:19:46 PM
Awake is hard to take in at first, but over time you appreciate the sound of it. It's kinda like ADTOE in that regard. Innocence Faded is the very definition of a 'snooze-fest' though, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
Awake has the best snare sound of any DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 11, 2017, 01:32:05 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
Awake has the best snare sound of any DT album.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 11, 2017, 01:42:37 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 11, 2017, 12:58:38 PM
A big part of FII's sound is the lack of JP's giant 'chocolate cake' tone that takes over most of the mix. I don't think he wants to give that up :P

The tone actualy works most of the time. TOT and BC&SL are prime examples.
The irony is that the album where he says he finally got it right (DT12) has probably my least favourite tone he has ever had on any album. Drowned in chorus and muddy as hell. The hell happened John?

Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 01:21:56 PM
Awake has the best snare sound of any DT album.

No way. TOT does.
The worst is definitely BC&SL as far as Portnoy goes. Can't stand that low tuned bubinga snare.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 01:43:27 PM
TOT snare sounds like it's 100% rimshots.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
FII snare sounds like the cookie monster banging on a trash can.   :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 11, 2017, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 11, 2017, 01:43:27 PM
TOT snare sounds like it's 100% rimshots.

No, it's just tuned to a very high pitch. Just the way I like my snares.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on May 11, 2017, 02:59:29 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 11, 2017, 01:19:46 PM
Awake is hard to take in at first, but over time you appreciate the sound of it. It's kinda like ADTOE in that regard. Innocence Faded is the very definition of a 'snooze-fest' though, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing

Innocence Faded is one of the very very few DT songs that are so "meh" I always skip them. Other than that, Awake definitely grew on me over time
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 11, 2017, 03:09:37 PM
Quote from: V_R11 on May 11, 2017, 02:59:29 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 11, 2017, 01:19:46 PM
Awake is hard to take in at first, but over time you appreciate the sound of it. It's kinda like ADTOE in that regard. Innocence Faded is the very definition of a 'snooze-fest' though, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing

Innocence Faded is one of the very very few DT songs that are so "meh" I always skip them. Other than that, Awake definitely grew on me over time

The Score version does IF much more justice than the studio version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 11, 2017, 03:18:14 PM
I wonder if they could bribe Steven Wilson to produce the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 11, 2017, 04:53:32 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 11, 2017, 06:50:43 AM
I don't think Awake is crap, I just don't think it's aged well. Compared to other DT albums it doesn't hold up as well

When I try DT albums on non-DT regular listeners, most find I&W more dated than Awake, reminding them of 1980s. Awake, however, fits in with the angsty 1990s sound which many still listen to.

Personally, the reason why Awake is my #2 DT album is because of that 1990s vibe, the era which has most of my favorite albums. The part starting from The Mirror, especially, is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 11, 2017, 07:22:42 PM
Innocence Faded is great. Plus it has amazing misheard lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 11, 2017, 08:35:16 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 11, 2017, 07:22:42 PM
Innocence Faded is great. Plus it has amazing misheard lyrics.

IF used to be one of my all time favourite songs from DT. The only thing I was never a big fan of was the outro. It remains my favourite LaBrie performance to date. The "Some will transcend spinning years" prechorus gives me chills everytime. 
Also... that clean guitar tone. #praisetheibanez
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 11, 2017, 11:11:31 PM
I think IF is one of the better songs from Awake, definitely top half. Good melodies throughout and a catchy chorus, and that killer bridge.
Awake does sound slightly dated in that I can tell what era it's from, but much less dated than most of the grunge/alt rock from the era. IaW is definitely more dated sounding. I don't consider it a negative in either case, they're just a snapshot of the era they were made.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 12, 2017, 12:12:58 AM
This is based on memory & I haven't heard FII in a while, but I never really got the hype behind its production. Sure, the quiet parts are really atmospheric & do a good job setting the mood, but it never really feels like the song "takes off" in the louder parts of the album, so it can be pretty anticlimactic. Hell's Kitchen I remember being really bad with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on May 12, 2017, 02:57:24 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 12, 2017, 12:12:58 AM
This is based on memory & I haven't heard FII in a while, but I never really got the hype behind its production. Sure, the quiet parts are really atmospheric & do a good job setting the mood, but it never really feels like the song "takes off" in the louder parts of the album, so it can be pretty anticlimactic. Hell's Kitchen I remember being really bad with this.

The thing with FII is that it has a very organic and dynamic production. Every instrument is audible, there is space in the mix and it's a very natural sounding album. This is why i believe many of us love the sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on May 12, 2017, 03:20:50 AM
+1

The album just breathes beautifully. A good part of that is down to the arrangements themselves too, it's a much less dense album that most of the rest of the catalogue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:42:58 AM
Every song on ToT is twice as long as it should be

David Prater had the right idea. The drum sound on I&W is really cool cause it gives that electronic sound, natural drums sound kinda boring
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Logain Ablar on May 12, 2017, 06:34:01 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on May 12, 2017, 02:57:24 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 12, 2017, 12:12:58 AM
This is based on memory & I haven't heard FII in a while, but I never really got the hype behind its production. Sure, the quiet parts are really atmospheric & do a good job setting the mood, but it never really feels like the song "takes off" in the louder parts of the album, so it can be pretty anticlimactic. Hell's Kitchen I remember being really bad with this.

The thing with FII is that it has a very organic and dynamic production. Every instrument is audible, there is space in the mix and it's a very natural sounding album. This is why i believe many of us love the sound.

I agree - it sounds great. The clarity of each instrument is excellent.

I think Peruvian Skies definitely "takes off" - for me, the change from the softer first section to the "terror by night" section just before the solo is very dynamic. Then it steps up another notch with the heavy riff section after the solo. I personally love these different transitions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 12, 2017, 06:43:21 AM
Just got through the whole Dt discography and TA is my least favorite album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 07:12:43 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 12, 2017, 06:43:21 AM
Just got through the whole Dt discography and TA is my least favorite album.

Well according to DTF that might not be very controversial.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 12, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 07:12:43 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 12, 2017, 06:43:21 AM
Just got through the whole Dt discography and TA is my least favorite album.

Well according to DTF that might not be very controversial.  :biggrin:

I think DTF is the main place where that would be controversial.

I'd place it bottom 3, with WDADU and DT12 being the other contenders.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 12, 2017, 11:03:43 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.

Upper Mids for me. Behind Octavarium, Scenes From a Memory & Six Degrees.


Edit : that doesn't mean that The Astonishing is 4th - just that I rank those 3 higher than it and I don't know about 4th and 5th place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Siddhartha on May 12, 2017, 11:17:21 AM
Second from the bottom. (DT12 last place)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 11:23:48 AM
4th or 5th. I never listen to it anymore tho because I just don't have the time for it. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 12, 2017, 12:18:41 PM
It's on the bottom for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JaceTestify on May 12, 2017, 12:24:00 PM
The Astonishing for me got better each time I listen to it, but it is still near the bottom for me... 3rd or 2nd last...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on May 12, 2017, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.
These are the rankings from the recent DT survivor:

Warm-Up Survivor - The Studio Albums

01, Scenes From A Memory
02. Images And Words
03. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
04. Awake
05. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
06. Octavarium
07. Train Of Thought
08. The Astonishing
09. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. Dream Theater
13. When Dream And Day Unite

Personally, I have it about 7th or 8th.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 12, 2017, 12:57:23 PM
That's about where I figured it would fall - somewhere in the middle of the catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 12, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
Quote from: krands85 on May 12, 2017, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.
These are the rankings from the recent DT survivor:

Warm-Up Survivor - The Studio Albums

01, Scenes From A Memory
02. Images And Words
03. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
04. Awake
05. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
06. Octavarium
07. Train Of Thought
08. The Astonishing
09. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. Dream Theater
13. When Dream And Day Unite

Personally, I have it about 7th or 8th.

My controversial opinion is related to this. Most of the fanbase shits on WDaDU. If I had to rank it, it would be mid-pack. If the band had faded into obscurity rather than finding success afterwards, fans of other progrock/metal would have found the album later down the line, and would have been lauding it as ahead of it's time, and asking what could have been...

The album is ignored because of it's poor production instead of being celebrated for the quality of music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 12, 2017, 05:12:37 PM
The Astonishing is 8 for me as well. Last time I posted my rankings it moved up 2 spots. Now it's down 2 again.

1. Images and Words
2. Awake
3. Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. Train of Thought
6. Octavarium
7. Falling Into Infinity
8. The Astonishing
9. Dream Theater
10. When Dream And Day Unite
11. A Dramatic Turn of Events
12. Systematic Chaos
13. Black Clouds and Silver Linings

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 12, 2017, 05:15:13 PM
Quote from: PowerSlave on May 12, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
Quote from: krands85 on May 12, 2017, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.
These are the rankings from the recent DT survivor:

Warm-Up Survivor - The Studio Albums

01, Scenes From A Memory
02. Images And Words
03. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
04. Awake
05. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
06. Octavarium
07. Train Of Thought
08. The Astonishing
09. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. Dream Theater
13. When Dream And Day Unite

Personally, I have it about 7th or 8th.

My controversial opinion is related to this. Most of the fanbase shits on WDaDU. If I had to rank it, it would be mid-pack. If the band had faded into obscurity rather than finding success afterwards, fans of other progrock/metal would have found the album later down the line, and would have been lauding it as ahead of it's time, and asking what could have been...

The album is ignored because of it's poor production instead of being celebrated for the quality of music.

I agree with most of this. WDADU is a great album and, you're right, given other circumstances, the album could be very differently perceived now. As for me, I really like it, I just happen to like the other 12 albums more than this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'

That's a pretty valid point if you can't stand hair metal type vocalists.
I find Dominici's voice unbearable, even if he's a pretty good singer.

Also the production is terrible and even then the music is not my cup of tea.
Ytse Jam is okay I guess, I don't ever want to hear the other songs again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 12, 2017, 05:45:05 PM
Quite possibly because of my age, and when I developed an appreciation for music, I don't hate Charlie's vocals as much as many other people do. I still think that JLB is the superior vocalist, but Charlie did a great job on that album, in my opinion. Someone mentioned "hairspray vocals", but I don't think that applies to him anymore than it could JLB. Winter Rose, high octave range ect. ect...

For me there are some absolutely stellar songs on that album. I personally enjoy it more than the last four albums combined. Then again, I've almost completely lost touch with anything that the band has done in recent years. The last album that I enjoyed was SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 12, 2017, 06:17:16 PM
I never hated Charlie's vocals, I think they worked well on when dream and Day unite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 12, 2017, 08:26:22 PM
Quote from: PowerSlave on May 12, 2017, 05:02:23 PM
Quote from: krands85 on May 12, 2017, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Where does DTF rank TA amongst the other albums?  I can't find the album rankings in the latest DT The League.
These are the rankings from the recent DT survivor:

Warm-Up Survivor - The Studio Albums

01. Scenes From A Memory
02. Images And Words
03. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
04. Awake
05. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
06. Octavarium
07. Train Of Thought
08. The Astonishing
09. Falling Into Infinity
10. Systematic Chaos
11. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
12. Dream Theater
13. When Dream And Day Unite

Personally, I have it about 7th or 8th.

My controversial opinion is related to this. Most of the fanbase shits on WDaDU. If I had to rank it, it would be mid-pack. If the band had faded into obscurity rather than finding success afterwards, fans of other progrock/metal would have found the album later down the line, and would have been lauding it as ahead of it's time, and asking what could have been...

The album is ignored because of it's poor production instead of being celebrated for the quality of music.

Agreed. Songs like Afterlife, Only a Matter of Time, and especially The Killing Hand laid the groundwork for what Dream Theater and progressive metal were to become. Much like Kill 'Em All is to thrash metal, WDaDU is a great but flawed starting point for progressive metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on May 12, 2017, 08:41:32 PM
I wouldn't give much thought about the results of those Survivor rounds. The League results appear to be much better,
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 12, 2017, 10:16:20 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'

That's a pretty valid point if you can't stand hair metal type vocalists.
I find Dominici's voice unbearable, even if he's a pretty good singer.

Um, I love hair metal type vocalists, and that he is definitely not, otherwise I'd like it! JLB on IaW is what I'd call a hair metal type vocalist. Dominici sounds like a nasally wannabe prog vocalist on WDADU, which clearly didn't suit his natural voice (which is not bad at all when he's singing in his natural register).

I still maintain that the production/vocalist thing is mostly a scapegoat for the other major problems of the album. Once you look past that stuff, it's just a weak album from a young band that hadn't developed their songwriting skills yet. The difference in songwriting quality from WDADU to IaW is complete night and day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 12, 2017, 11:43:27 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 12, 2017, 10:16:20 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'

That's a pretty valid point if you can't stand hair metal type vocalists.
I find Dominici's voice unbearable, even if he's a pretty good singer.

Um, I love hair metal type vocalists, and that he is definitely not, otherwise I'd like it! JLB on IaW is what I'd call a hair metal type vocalist. Dominici sounds like a nasally wannabe prog vocalist on WDADU, which clearly didn't suit his natural voice (which is not bad at all when he's singing in his natural register).

I still maintain that the production/vocalist thing is mostly a scapegoat for the other major problems of the album. Once you look past that stuff, it's just a weak album from a young band that hadn't developed their songwriting skills yet. The difference in songwriting quality from WDADU to IaW is complete night and day.

No argument that I&W is a better album. My problem is that WDaDU is almost an after thought in many people's opinion. Of course, they're completely entitled to that opinion, but I think that the hatred is misplaced. There's a rawness and energy on that album that I find lacking in much of the band's later output. For me A Fortune in Lies, Afterlife and Only a Matter of Time are absolutely top-notch DT songs. In fact, as you've mentioned I&W, I'd take those three songs over Surrounded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on May 13, 2017, 01:19:26 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'

That's about the deal with it for me. I like YtseJam though. I've tried more than once but to this day I haven't heard full WDaDU. I just don't like Charlie's voice
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 13, 2017, 06:15:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on May 12, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
Yeah I don't get the WDaDU hate either, it mostly boils down to 'lol I don't like his voice'

Sometimes, that's all it takes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 13, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
It's like when non DT fans slag off the whole band coz LaBrie " sucks ".

Like " DT are ok but the singer sucks of course "

Like it's a well established fact.


When there are far worse singers who get a fraction of the hate like Dave Mustaine & Axl Rose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 13, 2017, 01:11:24 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 13, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
It's like when non DT fans slag off the whole band coz LaBrie " sucks ".

Like " DT are ok but the singer sucks of course "

Like it's a well established fact.


When there are far worse singers who get a fraction of the hate like Dave Mustaine & Axl Rose.

The only thing that I don't like about JLB is his diction, and it's not a huge issue. Otherwise, the man is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 13, 2017, 01:20:11 PM
I hear ya.

" Condescending. Not intending to End " - even on the album sounds unintelligible. He does tend to lose enunciation the higher he goes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 13, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
I thought he said "Cunt ascending.."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on May 13, 2017, 10:59:48 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on May 12, 2017, 05:22:12 PM

That's a pretty valid point if you can't stand hair metal type vocalists.
I find Dominici's voice unbearable, even if he's a pretty good singer.


Interesting. I never thought he sounded like a Hair Band vocalist but then again I don't listen to those bands because I don't like them. What little I know about them is the vocalists tried to sound "sexy" or something. Dominici never had that sound to me anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PB1 on May 15, 2017, 05:52:12 AM
Quote from: Prog Snob on May 13, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
I thought he said "Cunt ascending.."

No you didn't
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2017, 09:11:50 AM
Good WDADU discussion.  For the record, like a lot of fans, my problems with it are threefold (not necessarily in any order):

-Vocals:  I don't like them.  I just don't.  If that was the only time I had ever heard Charlie, I would come away with the impression that I do not like Charlie and he isn't a great vocalist.  And on top of that, I probably would never have pursued anything else of his to find out what kind of singer he is beyond WDADU.  My opinion softened a bit toward him specifically when I did hear some other things he did through the years.  WDADRU is fantastic, but James does unfortunately sound tired and his voice sounds thin.  When he and Charlie duet on TLF and Metropolis, the contrast between James sounding tired and thin (but still pretty darned good--I'm not criticizing) with Charlie's warmer, fuller tone made me take notice.  Then hearing him on his own solo stuff that is written specifically for his voice, it was great to hear him singing in a way that played to his strengths rather than trying to pull something off that didn't fit his voice.  That's when I realized that, given the right music, Charlie is actually a pretty good singer.  But the material on WDADU is not suited for him.  That, combined perhaps with him just not yet being as mature and developed as a singer led to a vocal performance on that album (and the few live performances he did) that a lot of people (myself included) find off-putting.

-Song-writing:  There are lots of really cool moments on WDADU.  But there are also lots that don't work nearly as well.  Kind of like Charlie's vocals, if this was the first album I had heard from the band, a lot of it would have been off-putting to the point that I'm not sure I would have tried to follow this band at all.  Now, part of that is just that I was not yet into prog, so some of what they were doing just would not have been accessible to me.  I&W was such a great album, in part, because they took prog and made it accessible to metal heads.  WDADU didn't really accomplish that, IMO.  The seeds of some of the things the band is known for and that distinguishes them were definitely there.  But it just didn't work in some cases.  For example, there are a lot of turn-on-a-dime abrupt transitions between seemingly unrelated parts.  That is kind of a signature DT thing.  But it catches people off guard and can be jarring to the point of taking the listener out of the song.  They got better at structuring songs with the help of outside influences on I&W, and continued to hone that on subsequent albums.  IMO, it wasn't until FII that they finally mastered having those sort of abrupt transitions without them feeling abrupt.  Another area where they matured significantly AFTER WDADU was in writing vocal melodies.  There were definitely spots on WDADU that just don't sound very polished.

-Production:  It's been said before.  It is an issue.  The album sounds flat and lifeless.  All things being equal, I think a lot of us can get past this.  But when coupled with the other issues on the album, I think it is understandable that the production issues become more glaring and hard to get over for a lot of people. 

That's it in a nutshell for me.  And I don't think it should be surprising that a lot of people feel similarly.  It just is what it is.  Because of the band's success, a lot of us have gone back and revisited the album and learned to appreciate a lot that it has to offer.  But that still does not keep it from ranking at or near the bottom of the DT discography.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 15, 2017, 03:41:13 PM
I never listen to WDADU. But I always listen to WDADRu. I love that, and songwise, it is excellent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CB on May 15, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
I like Charlie's voice, but DT's music just didn't fit his voice. I wonder why they chose him as their vocalist - and why he wanted to be their singer. To me it sounds that he was forcing his voice a lot. I like the album though. It still sounds very vivid with many signs of the future brillance to me. I agree with bosk that James' WDADRU performance wasn't that good, he was probably worn out and unfortunately yes, he sounded tired and thin (he sounded great and powerful in comparison last saturday in Lingen, 54 years old :tup).
When I listen to WDADU it's almost always this (quite rough but still...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79vk3rSD1eA

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on May 15, 2017, 04:45:28 PM
Oddly I like Charlie's voice on WDADU. Vocals are not in bothering level in my eyes. Could be better? Sure but in this album there are many flaws that could be better. This guy's voice doesn't fit what DT does but I'm not annoyed by his voice. Though I still think and wonder how could WDADU sound like if James was on vocals in studio. Especially TKH with screams.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 15, 2017, 07:42:38 PM
On the album I actually kinda like his voice. Live however, from any old video I've seen, he was really weak. He had a weird medieval minstrel quality to him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 15, 2017, 09:09:46 PM
I disagree Rumbo.  Not a fan of his voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on May 16, 2017, 01:04:32 AM
I always hear people say Dominici wasn't a good fit for Dream Theater but what if they wrote vocal melodies that actually suited his range?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 16, 2017, 02:07:24 AM
Then I wouldn't listen to them. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shooters1221 on May 16, 2017, 04:38:15 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 15, 2017, 09:11:50 AM
Good WDADU discussion.  For the record, like a lot of fans, my problems with it are threefold (not necessarily in any order):

-Vocals:  I don't like them.  I just don't.  If that was the only time I had ever heard Charlie, I would come away with the impression that I do not like Charlie and he isn't a great vocalist.  And on top of that, I probably would never have pursued anything else of his to find out what kind of singer he is beyond WDADU.  My opinion softened a bit toward him specifically when I did hear some other things he did through the years.  WDADRU is fantastic, but James does unfortunately sound tired and his voice sounds thin.  When he and Charlie duet on TLF and Metropolis, the contrast between James sounding tired and thin (but still pretty darned good--I'm not criticizing) with Charlie's warmer, fuller tone made me take notice.  Then hearing him on his own solo stuff that is written specifically for his voice, it was great to hear him singing in a way that played to his strengths rather than trying to pull something off that didn't fit his voice.  That's when I realized that, given the right music, Charlie is actually a pretty good singer.  But the material on WDADU is not suited for him.  That, combined perhaps with him just not yet being as mature and developed as a singer led to a vocal performance on that album (and the few live performances he did) that a lot of people (myself included) find off-putting.

-Song-writing:  There are lots of really cool moments on WDADU.  But there are also lots that don't work nearly as well.  Kind of like Charlie's vocals, if this was the first album I had heard from the band, a lot of it would have been off-putting to the point that I'm not sure I would have tried to follow this band at all.  Now, part of that is just that I was not yet into prog, so some of what they were doing just would not have been accessible to me.  I&W was such a great album, in part, because they took prog and made it accessible to metal heads.  WDADU didn't really accomplish that, IMO.  The seeds of some of the things the band is known for and that distinguishes them were definitely there.  But it just didn't work in some cases.  For example, there are a lot of turn-on-a-dime abrupt transitions between seemingly unrelated parts.  That is kind of a signature DT thing.  But it catches people off guard and can be jarring to the point of taking the listener out of the song.  They got better at structuring songs with the help of outside influences on I&W, and continued to hone that on subsequent albums.  IMO, it wasn't until FII that they finally mastered having those sort of abrupt transitions without them feeling abrupt.  Another area where they matured significantly AFTER WDADU was in writing vocal melodies.  There were definitely spots on WDADU that just don't sound very polished.

-Production:  It's been said before.  It is an issue.  The album sounds flat and lifeless.  All things being equal, I think a lot of us can get past this.  But when coupled with the other issues on the album, I think it is understandable that the production issues become more glaring and hard to get over for a lot of people. 

That's it in a nutshell for me.  And I don't think it should be surprising that a lot of people feel similarly.  It just is what it is.  Because of the band's success, a lot of us have gone back and revisited the album and learned to appreciate a lot that it has to offer.  But that still does not keep it from ranking at or near the bottom of the DT discography.

Nutshell??

I agree with all of this. The songwriting was not up to par on WDADU because, in my outside looking in opinion, the artists were still finding themselves in that respect at that point. As you pointed out, I think they grew into that with I&W and Awake and kind of smoothed the edges with their transitioning from one part to the next. I still know people to this day that won't listen to DT because of the abrupt changing of tempo/key/etc... I tell them, that's known as progressive and I think DT has really mastered that part of the writing process. I have, through the years, tried to broaden my prog/metal library and some stick, some don't. I find that the ones that normally don't stick are the ones with what I call the WDADU type writing process which just doesn't seem to be quite where it needs to be yet...of course, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 17, 2017, 04:18:32 PM
Quote from: Herrick on May 16, 2017, 01:04:32 AM
I always hear people say Dominici wasn't a good fit for Dream Theater but what if they wrote vocal melodies that actually suited his range?

CD wasn't really the style of singer that suited DT.  So, writing vocal melodies to fit his range would not have mattered anyway.  I really didn't mind his singing too much.  He had some good moments, just not enough good moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 17, 2017, 04:28:32 PM
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 17, 2017, 04:31:54 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 17, 2017, 04:28:32 PM
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2017, 04:49:07 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 17, 2017, 04:31:54 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 17, 2017, 04:28:32 PM
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.

Since James goes for a Freddie Mercuryish Nefaryus, how about Adam Lambert.

Personally, Chiago does an awesome job. I'd be fine with his troupe doing the whole thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Devin Townsend on May 18, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

The chorus feels way too upbeat for the more melancholy verses, I somewhat agree a little
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on May 18, 2017, 01:32:34 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 17, 2017, 04:49:07 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 17, 2017, 04:31:54 PM
Quote from: Evai on May 17, 2017, 04:28:32 PM
I would quite enjoy a one off TA gig with Dominci as Gabriel and Portnoy as Nafaryus, their voices would embody the characters quite well
Interesting idea, but I would move Portnoy to Daryus.  James does too good a Nefaryus to take him off that role.

Since James goes for a Freddie Mercuryish Nefaryus, how about Adam Lambert.

Personally, Chiago does an awesome job. I'd be fine with his troupe doing the whole thing.

Did you mean Thiago? Do they cover some Dream Cheacer?  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on May 18, 2017, 11:17:20 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.
I'd say it is much better than most of the songs that DT released in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 18, 2017, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Of course it's controversial.  Most DT fans would disagree.  It's a great song.


Quote from: ChuckSteak on May 18, 2017, 11:17:20 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.
I'd say it is much better than most of the songs that DT released in the last 10 years.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 18, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on May 18, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 18, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.

I want my ring back...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 18, 2017, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 18, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
A Change of Seasons
Surrounded
Scarred
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream


I don't like any of these songs.


Moreover - I think Our New World could be their best song since Octavarium. Also better than Breaking All Illusions. Which I also find medium.

There's not a single thing about your post I agree with. Probably I don't even agree with the punctuation  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 18, 2017, 01:55:09 PM
I'm into songs over prog.

A change of seasons has never clicked with me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on May 18, 2017, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 13, 2017, 01:20:11 PM
I hear ya.

" Condescending. Not intending to End " - even on the album sounds unintelligible. He does tend to lose enunciation the higher he goes.
I hear "Condescending. Not intending to waaa-aaaaaah"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 18, 2017, 02:01:30 PM
I actually hear

Con den den yen Waahhn in yem yem de Haaaa Oooohhhhhh


:p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: t-bone2112 on May 18, 2017, 09:50:50 PM
Wow, A Change of Seasons and Surrounded are two of my absolute favorite DT songs!  I can't see how anyone would not love them.

But that's one of the amazing things about this band.  The fans have so many different outlooks on their music.  It's cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 19, 2017, 05:18:39 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 06:52:31 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 19, 2017, 05:18:39 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake

Metal fans hate uplifting section.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2017, 10:35:35 AM
I'm a metal fan and I like it just fine.  That's the thing about Awake.  The mellow stuff is good and there's not too much of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 19, 2017, 10:42:01 AM
It is possible for metal fans to like non metal music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2017, 11:26:26 AM
Yeah, but not all non metal music.  TA is non metal and I don't like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 12:58:54 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2017, 06:52:31 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 19, 2017, 05:18:39 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 17, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Not sure if this is controversial, but "lifting shadows off a dream" might be one of DTs worst songs.

Lifting Shadows is one of the best songs off Awake

Metal fans hate uplifting section.   :lol

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/e62de30fb09fb61fefe0e8635d7328e7/tumblr_nglvfybIO81smivoro1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 12:59:34 PM
I've got the feeeeeellllllssss!!!!!!!!! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 01:03:54 PM
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/14e7a06789cbcf7881ce422f8aa281c5/tumblr_mmwiu5XWuC1ql5pg7o1_400.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 01:13:51 PM
I'm on top.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 01:15:20 PM
(https://img.pandawhale.com/post-32861-Beavis-twerk-gif-dancing-Butth-kFft.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2017, 01:36:13 PM
JLB:  "We're gonna bring it down a few notches.  A little more emotion coming your way."  :eyebrows:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 01:39:33 PM
 :lol

I just thought it was funny to see someone say they do not like the chorus to Lifting Shadows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 19, 2017, 02:20:40 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2017, 01:39:33 PM
:lol

I just thought it was funny to see someone say they do not like the chorus to Lifting Shadows.

Wasn't me. I don't like any of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2017, 02:26:33 PM
Uh well, that includes the chorus.  So it was you.  :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 19, 2017, 03:49:40 PM
JFC the GIFs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 19, 2017, 03:49:40 PM
JFC the GIFs

How'd you know my initials?  Oh wait a  ....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 19, 2017, 02:20:40 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 19, 2017, 01:39:33 PM
:lol

I just thought it was funny to see someone say they do not like the chorus to Lifting Shadows.

Wasn't me. I don't like any of it.

Well, no one asked you anyway.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 08:01:03 PM
Scottjf8 should be in the concussion protocol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 08:02:44 PM
I'd be more than happy to help that along.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on May 19, 2017, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2017, 02:26:33 PM
Uh well, that includes the chorus.  So it was you.  :neverusethis:


It was Devin Townsend that mentioned the chorus.


Quote from: Prog Snob on May 19, 2017, 08:02:44 PM
I'd be more than happy to help that along.




Does this entail physical harm to someone for not liking LSOAD? I don't like the chorus either, so does that mean I will receive a concussion too? Or that I recently had a concussion?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 19, 2017, 09:12:38 PM
I am ready to DDT you my friend. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Prog Snob on May 20, 2017, 06:56:02 AM
:lol

Just be glad King got to you before I did.
(https://rs26.pbsrc.com/albums/c116/tangozgirlscout/Gifs/HHxFc.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on May 20, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
Absolutely can't stand almost all of the vocal melodies in Lifting Shadows off a Dream, I'll agree with those who were saying it's one of their least favourite DT songs. And no, its lack of heaviness is not a legitimate reason. DT have done plenty of great soft songs, this just isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 20, 2017, 12:56:57 PM
Sure it is.  Some fans like the heavier side, others like the melodic side and others like a mix of both to varying degrees.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Train of Naught on May 20, 2017, 01:30:59 PM
Oops, youre completely right :lol. Guess I meant to say its not the reason I personally dislike it. Me and formulating logical sentences dont always go along well
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 20, 2017, 02:06:26 PM
I love the blend.  To me, that's what makes DT great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cable on May 20, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
The heavy part, and contrasts work well IMO. Just not the chorus. Everything else about the song is mostly good to very good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 20, 2017, 08:15:51 PM
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream is awesome. All of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomislav95 on May 21, 2017, 03:06:20 AM
It seems it's controversial if I say LSOAD is in my top 10 DT songs (probably, it's been a while since I last made top 10)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: V_R11 on May 21, 2017, 08:24:56 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2017, 08:15:51 PM
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream is awesome. All of it.

Yup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MarkFitDT on May 21, 2017, 01:18:06 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2017, 08:15:51 PM
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream is awesome. All of it.

agreed  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 21, 2017, 01:22:12 PM
Quote from: Train of Naught on May 20, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
Absolutely can't stand almost all of the vocal melodies in Lifting Shadows off a Dream, I'll agree with those who were saying it's one of their least favourite DT songs. And no, its lack of heaviness is not a legitimate reason. DT have done plenty of great soft songs, this just isn't one of them.

Agreed, I totally love songs like Along for the ride, through her eyes etc... 

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 22, 2017, 02:06:23 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 20, 2017, 08:15:51 PM
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream is awesome. All of it.

QFT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 28, 2017, 08:52:50 AM
DT invented dubstep with the 'wob wob' from home


In The Astonishing, the line is actually 'This battle won't be over till it's one', meaning you're supposed to start the album at around 11:30, and the point at which Faythe is killed and the fighting stops will be at 1:00
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on May 28, 2017, 09:54:44 AM
Lifting Shadows is the one song on Awake which I skip.


It used to be Scarred. I used to hate Scarred with a flaming passion.

Now I love it.

Fight me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 28, 2017, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on May 28, 2017, 09:54:44 AM
Lifting Shadows is the one song on Awake which I skip.


It used to be Scarred. I used to hate Scarred with a flaming passion.

Now I love it.

Fight me.

I'm the same way. I really don't dislike the song, but it's the lowest point on one of my favorite albums of all time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on May 28, 2017, 08:23:45 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on May 28, 2017, 09:54:44 AM
Lifting Shadows is the one song on Awake which I skip.


It used to be Scarred. I used to hate Scarred with a flaming passion.

Now I love it.

Fight me.

I'll just bitch slap you.  Out of love of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Polarbear on May 29, 2017, 10:29:48 AM
Haven't posted in this thread in ages, so here is some of my thoughts..

JP's guitar tone in the last two albums, has been pretty horrible. I really hope he tries something different next time.

The "Self Titled", while still my least favorite DT album, has recently received something of a re-evaluation from me. It does have it's moments.

Also, DT needs to hire great producer(s) ASAP!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on May 29, 2017, 01:10:28 PM
Quote from: Polarbear on May 29, 2017, 10:29:48 AM
JP's guitar tone in the last two albums, has been pretty horrible. I really hope he tries something different next time.

I mean, JP has got a brand new guitar that's considered to be among the best guitars ever made, he has his own new signature Boogie amp that also sounds incredibly good in any demos I've heard and still his tone on the latest abum is terrible. I have no idea what is going on with him lately, his tone on ADTOE was pretty nice, then all of sudden it turned into a weak over-chorused mess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 29, 2017, 01:28:39 PM
I think artists get bored of good tone over the years, and end up moving towards an 'easier' tone. See - EVH
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on May 29, 2017, 01:35:41 PM
I thought JP's tone is great on TA!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on May 30, 2017, 06:10:17 AM
Yeah Petrucci i think overuses the chorus in the last few years, especially in the distorted rhythm tones. If you listen to both LALP and BTFW, some tight riffs (TEI, TSF) sound a little sloppy and muddy (at least to my ears) and this is definitely due to the overwhelming chorus applied to the tone.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on May 30, 2017, 06:32:20 AM
Whilst we're on the subject, I can't stand JM's tone at the moment either. I remember when seeing them live about a month ago, it came to the Metropolis bass solo and there were just too many effects going on to the point where the notes he was playing were virtually impossible to distinguish. It just doesn't sound like a bass anymore.

It makes me really miss his tone circa Train of Thought/LaB. Now THAT was a monster bass tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on May 30, 2017, 07:18:52 AM
It's surprising that you can hear Myung's bass at all. I can't. Whether it is on studio or live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 30, 2017, 09:06:34 AM
Quote from: JiM-Xtreme on May 30, 2017, 06:32:20 AM
Whilst we're on the subject, I can't stand JM's tone at the moment either. I remember when seeing them live about a month ago, it came to the Metropolis bass solo and there were just too many effects going on to the point where the notes he was playing were virtually impossible to distinguish. It just doesn't sound like a bass anymore.

It makes me really miss his tone circa Train of Thought/LaB. Now THAT was a monster bass tone.

Agreed.  I have never had a problem with JP's guitar tone.  But the bass tone has gone a direction that I really do not care for.

Quote from: ChuckSteak on May 30, 2017, 07:18:52 AM
It's surprising that you can hear Myung's bass at all. I can't. Whether it is on studio or live.

I would suggest better speakers, but given that I can hear his playing even on a bad system, I'm honestly not sure what your issue is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BlobVanDam on May 30, 2017, 09:14:02 AM
I only listen to DT on decent equipment, but I've also never had a problem hearing JM's playing, the odd song aside, like BMUBMD. There are certainly better and worse mixes, but I can always make out his lines. I think some of the problem may be that it's more difficult for people to distinguish his playing when he's doubling JP?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 30, 2017, 09:16:17 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on May 30, 2017, 09:14:02 AM
I only listen to DT on decent equipment, but I've also never had a problem hearing JM's playing, the odd song aside, like BMUBMD. There are certainly better and worse mixes, but I can always make out his lines. I think some of the problem may be that it's more difficult for people to distinguish his playing when he's doubling JP?

I think so, a lot of people probably hear the bass but since it's doubling the guitar line, it might not jump out at them. In reality, if you all of a sudden muted the bass track, you'd realize how much of an impact it typically has on a mix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 30, 2017, 09:19:13 AM
Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on May 30, 2017, 09:22:11 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 30, 2017, 09:19:13 AM
Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree overall, I do think there has been more doubling to whatever JP is playing in recent years on recent albums, so I'd like to see less of that personally. Then again, maybe that's not true and I'm off base.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on May 30, 2017, 11:52:21 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on May 30, 2017, 09:22:11 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 30, 2017, 09:19:13 AM
Yeah, I mean there are always cases of him falling into the background in a particular song or particular part of the song, either because he is doubling JP or because the bass is supposed to be a subtle part of the background.  But that's generally true of the vast majority of bass players in the vast majority of songs.  Typically, unless the bass is playing a flourish and meant to be noticed, or is part of a song with a particularly driving rhythm, or it is a quiet part of a song, you often have to listen for the bass to notice it.  As a rule, that's true of Myung as well.  There are definitely songs where his playing stands out, as it should.  But there are plenty others where his playing is more subtle and doesn't stand out unless you listen for it.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree overall, I do think there has been more doubling to whatever JP is playing in recent years on recent albums, so I'd like to see less of that personally. Then again, maybe that's not true and I'm off base.

That's been the case for pretty much every album since Train of Thought. On DT12 the bass kind of came to the forefront once again, not just in terms of the overall mix but the actual lines he was playing as well. It just stood out a lot more on that album, which I liked, but then it fell into the background once again with TA.

Which, you could argue, is exactly what the bass is supposed to do - supporting the overall mix without always being overtly noticeable. It's just not my particular taste, as I tend to listen to other bands where the bass is more at the forefront and has it's own distinct place both in mix and arrangement, such as Living Colour, Primus and the RHCP. But in terms of this band and this style of music, it serves its purpose. I guess it's a combination of JM's introverted personality, the fact that JP and JR write the majority of the music and that it's mostly (let's face it) guitar-driven music anyway that the bass mostly plays a supporting role.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PowerSlave on May 30, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Maybe not on the albums, but I've always struggled to hear him in a live setting.

One of those times was when I seen them on tour with Fates Warning and Queensryche. The difference in the mixes was very noticeable. Joey Vera and Eddie Jackson were very much a part of their band's sound, where as JM wasn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 23, 2017, 05:46:00 AM
Seeing James struggles bit at hitting high notes but sounds awesome singing songs like As I Am and The Dark Eternal Night, DT should consider making ToT and Awake-ish album again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 23, 2017, 06:16:57 AM
Wasn't DT12 in that vain?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 23, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
The vocal mixing on Awake wasn't the best, the quiet parts are too quiet to understand, and the loud parts are ear piercing. The same songs on Breaking The Fourth Wall were better, since it's all even and you could actually hear the words when James is in his lower register
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 23, 2017, 12:46:46 PM
Alright, here goes:

-Awake is a structural mess. Sections and themes often seem carelessly glued together without any regard for creating a smooth transition. The "Space Dye Vest" foreshadowing in "The Mirror" just seems to be thrown in without any reason or explanation whatsoever. Every time I hear it I just think "Why is this here? 'The Mirror' and 'Space Dye Vest' are separated by like four songs and there's no other connection between the two. It just feels unnecessary." "Scarred" is basically a collage of ideas that are really good on their own, but do not gel together whatsoever. It's like an accidental picaresque novel. And don't get me started on "Lie" and "Voices". The songs that tend to work the most for me are the "poppier" songs like "6:00", "Lifting Shadows", "Innocence Faded", and "Space-Dye Vest".
-Kevin Moore's keyboard parts are usually super boring to me. "Wait for Sleep" and "Space-Dye Vest" are the only two that really stand out for me.
-Amusingly, despite being of their shortest albums, DT12 probably has the most "fat" on it of any album. "Surrender to Reason" and "Enigma Machine" could easily be 5min songs. "The Enemy Inside" gets a little chubby around the middle too. Also, "False Awakening Suite" is one of the best songs off the album.
-The Symphonic Theater of Dreams version of "Ministry of Lost Souls" works so much better than the original version. That out of nowhere heavy middle section fits very nicely in the song when it's played by an orchestra.
-"A Mind Beside Itself", "The Twelve Step Suite", and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" aren't suites, but song cycles. Suites are collections of thematically related instrumental pieces (usually based in dance music, but not always) that are often played together. Song cycles are collections of 2 or more songs (usually thematically related in both lyrics and music) that can be played separately or all together, with each song being completely whole in and of itself. So, really, the only suite that they've written is...wait for it, "False Awakening Suite". Splitting hairs, but the abuse of the term "suite" in prog is a pet peeve of mine (alongside random quotations of classical music with much worse arrangements, which DT doesn't do too often thankfully).
-Speaking of TTSS, the transition from that full band unison to the synth solo in "The Root of All Evil" is magical.
-The Octavarium album as a whole is wonderfully well-written and there's obviously a lot of thought that went into writing it. It gets much more flak than it deserves imo. The way they weave that main "Octavarium" theme throughout the other songs on the album is a thing of beauty.
-The coda to "In the Name of God" goes on for too long.
-"Raw Dog" and "Prophets of War" are okay. Not amazing, but they're pretty decent in their own right.
-"Sacrificed Sons" is easily one of their best songs. Fight me.
-The Astonishing is one of the best pieces of music written in the last 70 years. Fight me x2.
-I like James LaBrie's singing most of the time. Fight me x3.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 23, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
I'll fight with you on the last 4 thoughts. Especially The Astonishing, such beautiful songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 23, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: Ninjabait on November 23, 2017, 12:46:46 PM
-Awake is a structural mess. Sections and themes often seem carelessly glued together without any regard for creating a smooth transition. The "Space Dye Vest" foreshadowing in "The Mirror" just seems to be thrown in without any reason or explanation whatsoever. Every time I hear it I just think "Why is this here? 'The Mirror' and 'Space Dye Vest' are separated by like four songs and there's no other connection between the two. It just feels unnecessary." "Scarred" is basically a collage of ideas that are really good on their own, but do not gel together whatsoever. It's like an accidental picaresque novel. And don't get me started on "Lie" and "Voices".

I disagree with everything about this.

 :biggrin:

But really, call it me accepting the album when I had became a fan many years ago, but I'd consider the latter albums of their discography filled with bad transitions between songs sections, while everything on Awake works. Sure, thematically it might not have much sense but damn if it's powerful when the Space Dye Vest part comes in. And I wish they'd write epic songs like Voices and Scarred again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 23, 2017, 04:49:53 PM
I'm pretty sure most people here like Labries voice most of the time, since 'most of the time' is when we are listening to the albums or maybe official live releases. Watching terrible live videos comprises 1-2% of the time  :D Also I'll agree with you on The Astonishing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 23, 2017, 05:41:38 PM
The older I get, the less I care for Awake. It's not that great, or even good.

DT I think really hit their stride at SFAM and peaked at Systematic Chaos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 23, 2017, 07:54:50 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 23, 2017, 03:09:22 PM
I'll fight with you on the last 4 thoughts. Especially The Astonishing, such beautiful songs.

(https://i.imgur.com/wRKk90j.png)

Don't know why this was the first thing to pop into my mind when I read that, but it was and there's no going back now.

Quote from: Evai on November 23, 2017, 04:49:53 PM
I'm pretty sure most people here like Labries voice most of the time, since 'most of the time' is when we are listening to the albums or maybe official live releases. Watching terrible live videos comprises 1-2% of the time  :D Also I'll agree with you on The Astonishing.

Well, I've seen a lot of comments about LaBrie being the "weak link" of the band aroundabouts the web and complaints about him, so I assumed it was an unpopular opinion.

Quote from: MirrorMask on November 23, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
I disagree with everything about this.

 :biggrin:

But really, call it me accepting the album when I had became a fan many years ago, but I'd consider the latter albums of their discography filled with bad transitions between songs sections, while everything on Awake works. Sure, thematically it might not have much sense but damn if it's powerful when the Space Dye Vest part comes in. And I wish they'd write epic songs like Voices and Scarred again.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. For me, a lot of cooler moments of the album are weakened by the fact that they feel unprepared and sudden. The SDV "preprise" in The Mirror would've probably worked better if it didn't seem so out of place. idk, structure in music is super important to me, so things that feel structurally "off" to me really bother me.

And yeah, I would agree that some of the more recent albums have some pretty clunky transitions. DT12 and SC are probably the worst offenders (with some exceptions, like TBP, ITPoE, IT, FAS, etc.), while ADToE and especially The Astonishing are more structurally sound imo. BC&SL is hit-or-miss, mainly because of all the padding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on November 23, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
Ninjabait,

you're breaking my heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 24, 2017, 06:17:31 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on November 23, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
Ninjabait,

you're breaking my heart

Sorry, I have a bad habit of building people up and then breaking them down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on November 24, 2017, 09:16:01 AM
I crash and burn.

I never learn.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 24, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
You're my guilty addic-

...

Hang on, no. Not going there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 24, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
-The growling section in Nightmare to Remember is the best part, I get hyped up every time. Would be amazing to see live.

-Every song on TA is great, except for Our New World. It's very repetitive, and was a bad choice for a single, since it starts with the line 'Like your father once said'. Doesn't work outside the context of the story.

-Lyrics of Metropolis and Under A Glass Moon are plain nonsense because JP was too afraid to express himself.

-A Change Of Seasons is a bit pitchy vocal-wise, needs a rerelease with some pitch correction.

-Dark Eternal Night from Chaos In Motion is better than the album version.

- Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 24, 2017, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 24, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 24, 2017, 03:35:40 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 24, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
-Lyrics of Metropolis and Under A Glass Moon are plain nonsense because JP was too afraid to express himself.

Yes, but they're quite nice so who cares  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 24, 2017, 03:35:58 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on November 24, 2017, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 24, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.

I agree, regarding The Spirit Carries On.  Crowds always go wild for it, but hey, they should stop playing it because a tinny tiny portion of diehards are tired of it, right?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ProfessorPeart on November 24, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
Don't know that any of this is controversial, but.....

James has always been the weak link, in my opinion. Awake was the first album I bought (FII was not out yet) and I distinctly remember my first thought being, man - these guys are great, I just wish the singer was better. With that said, James has always been fine in studio. I have never had an issue with his studio performances.

Now, live, yikes. Once In a Livetime should never have been released upon the public. It is cringe-worthy and bad. I was having issues with James' live performances for awhile but just kept buying tickets. It was on the Octavarium tour when I finally had enough. I made the decision during that show to never see them live again. The best way I could describe his vocals is a man yelling loudly at someone across a busy 4 lane road. I think Budokan is the last live thing I bought from them.

I did see them when they opened for Maiden a few years back. He was fine, but they also stuck to the harder metal fare that did not test his range in any way. Like someone else said, he needs to stick to that sort of material at this point. He cannot handle the high stuff.

Their material since the 'event' has been very uneven. 2 terrible albums and 1 pretty good one. I continue to buy them and support the band in that way. Just hoping for something better.

James' solo albums have been far better than the last several DT albums. There's something I thought I'd never say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 24, 2017, 05:43:27 PM
I try to soften the blow of the negative stuff by adding nice stuff too  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 24, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
I’ve always been curious about the food poisoning incident. How much effect did it have? I feel as if some people about it as if it hadnt happened he’d be a completely different singer.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 24, 2017, 06:00:10 PM
Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 24, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
James has always been the weak link, in my opinion. 

I think that's always been the case, but having been a fan since the I&W days, I felt that even then. And I consider I&W a Top 3 Vocal for me. I just think ANY singer would be the weak link in this band.

Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 24, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
Now, live, yikes. Once In a Livetime should never have been released upon the public. It is cringe-worthy and bad. I was having issues with James' live performances for awhile but just kept buying tickets. It was on the Octavarium tour when I finally had enough. I made the decision during that show to never see them live again. The best way I could describe his vocals is a man yelling loudly at someone across a busy 4 lane road. I think Budokan is the last live thing I bought from them.

I'm with you on Livetime. I was horrified when I heard it. I could not believe that was released. And then obviously the LA Ytsejam show. That's when I knew MP had no issue embarrassing his singer.

I actually thought James was pretty good on the 8V tour.


Quote from: ProfessorPeart on November 24, 2017, 05:31:00 PM

Their material since the 'event' has been very uneven. 2 terrible albums and 1 pretty good one. I continue to buy them and support the band in that way. Just hoping for something better.

Nah, it's all been pretty strong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM
I don't think any song in DT's catalogue should be played at every show. Dream Theater is a band that can play anything off their official releases and a good portion of the fan base will know it and like it.  I'm glad they never got to a point where they felt that any one song, be it Pull Me Under, Metropolis, or Spirit, had to always be included.

Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.  I think it's insane that they covered a number of full albums at 2nd night shows, but not one of those albums was a Rush album.  Um.. I think The Astonishing is phenomenal and it's one of my favorite albums; I suppose that's controversial.  I liked the no photos/video policy that they had on the TA tour.  I think New  Millennium is a fine song (and great album opener).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 24, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 24, 2017, 03:35:58 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on November 24, 2017, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 24, 2017, 02:30:54 PM
-Spirit Carries On should not be removed from the setlist ever. If someone is gonna see DT live for the first time, they need to hear it.

Agreed. It’s one of my favorite songs by them yet I’ve seen them three times and I haven’t heard it live yet.

I agree, regarding The Spirit Carries On.  Crowds always go wild for it, but hey, they should stop playing it because a tinny tiny portion of diehards are tired of it, right?  :facepalm:
By that reasoning, I guess the band ought to make sure to include PMU, Metropolis, The Mirror, ACoS, Overture 1928/SDVu, AIA, 8v and TDEN in every setlist too. Of course, all those songs plus TSCO add up to roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes of music, but hey, the crowd always goes wild for them and they shouldn't stop playing them because a teeny tiny portion of diehards might get tired of them, right?   :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Drinktheater on November 25, 2017, 01:39:09 AM
A consider the Astonishing as a great work, I am serious people now think its a flop and that John Petrucci over reach with it. But give it time a few decades now Dream Theater will be remembered as the band who dared and tried to go against the grain of Music in the first half of the 21st century.

Lets face it how many bands today from the prog metal genre have created a concept album like that? Yes we have Rush and all the other prog legends but that was a few decades ago DT is now and will be a legend in the future.


Bless!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 25, 2017, 01:41:23 AM
Quote from: Drinktheater on November 25, 2017, 01:39:09 AM
A consider the Astonishing as a great work, I am serious people now think its a flop and that John Petrucci over reach with it. But give it time a few decades now Dream Theater will be remembered as the band who dared and tried to go against the grain of Music in the first half of the 21st century.

Lets face it how many bands today from the prog metal genre have created a concept album like that? Yes we have Rush and all the other prog legends but that was a few decades ago DT is now and will be a legend in the future.


Bless!!!

How many bands do big concept albums? Lots.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 25, 2017, 04:55:09 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 24, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
I’ve always been curious about the food poisoning incident. How much effect did it have? I feel as if some people about it as if it hadnt happened he’d be a completely different singer.

Well, for the effect, listen to Live at the Marquee and then Once in a LIVEtime. That's the effect it had. Further complicated by him needing 1 year of rest to recover, and the band not being able to affor such a prolonged hiatus.

He was like an athlete sustaining a serious injury in his prime, and then speeds up his recovery because he can't miss the matches. We'll never know for sure how it would have gone, but for sure James was in his prime and I believe he could have lasted at least until Scenes or even Six Degrees to wail insanely the way he did on Live at the Marquee before age would eventually catch up.

And weird how Prof Peart gave up on James around Octavarium - that was when he finally was back into his full shape IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 25, 2017, 06:57:26 AM
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 25, 2017, 07:27:44 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 25, 2017, 06:57:26 AM
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

He still sang those songs though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 25, 2017, 08:01:38 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 25, 2017, 06:57:26 AM
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

Well, yes but in that era there are better performance of him than Live@Marquee. Like this: https://youtu.be/x2_wJP3VCBw

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 25, 2017, 08:25:05 AM
Quote from: Zook on November 25, 2017, 07:27:44 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 25, 2017, 06:57:26 AM
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t live at the marquee have a ton of vocal overdubs?

He still sang those songs though.

Sang them where? In the studio?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 25, 2017, 10:39:24 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM


Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

Quote from: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM
  I think it's insane that they covered a number of full albums at 2nd night shows, but not one of those albums was a Rush album. 

I think it's likely that a Rush album would have been covered at some point, had Portnoy not left the band, although they covered plenty of Rush in various shows over the years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 25, 2017, 10:41:03 AM
Wasn't Moving Pictures the 5th album that would have been played? Portnoy always said he already had 5 albums in mind but he got around to play only 4 (Master, 666, Dark Side, Made in Japan)

Setlist Scotty knows for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 25, 2017, 10:45:54 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2017, 10:39:24 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM


Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ozzy554 on November 25, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 25, 2017, 10:45:54 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2017, 10:39:24 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM


Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)

Yeah him singing more and more leads is one of the reasons why I'm glad he left the band. It's what keeps me from listening to A Nightmare to Remember more often. It's just so cringey to me
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on November 25, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 25, 2017, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: DTA on November 25, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.

Agreed. The Glass Prison (the only one of the five that would make my top 50) is great, while the other four songs all range from solid to good for me. 

Had the Shattered Fortress tour came here to STL, I would have skipped it. Zero interest in hearing that suite played in full.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 25, 2017, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: DTA on November 25, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
Controversial opinion - I think the AA Suite is incredibly overrated and all the songs that make it up are among the weakest on each respective album. The Glass Prison, which everyone seems to go nuts for, is entirely too repetitive/padded and one-sided to remain interesting for its 14 minute duration. This Dying Soul is probably the best of the bunch, but the last minute or so of noodling completely ruins it IMO. The Root Of All Evil is okay, but again, feels a bit too one-sided and repetitive, but at least it's only 8 minutes instead of 12-14. Repentance is actually pretty cool, but the ending is just painfully long. The Shattered Fortress is a good ending to the suite, but again, just feels like it goes on forever. The intro especially. I'll never understand why these songs get so much love from DT fans.

What threw me off with Shattered Fortress was the ending. It sounds like JLB was gonna do something akin to the F# from Learning To Live, but decided his voice wasn't up to it that day
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 25, 2017, 03:37:02 PM
I love This Dying Soul. But The Glass Prison, which I really liked at first, has not aged well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 25, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: ozzy554 on November 25, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 25, 2017, 10:45:54 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2017, 10:39:24 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 24, 2017, 07:01:17 PM


Controversial opinions - I dunno if I really have any. I don't think MP should ever have been allowed near a mic in the studio - maybe some find that controversial.

I don't find it controversial; I find it mostly on the money (although the harmonies he and JP do in Fatal Tragedy are good). 

The thing with his vocals in DT is that he was great with harmonies, like Fatal Tragedy, but with the years he started to sing more and more leads, and that just never worked well (ROOOOAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)

Yeah him singing more and more leads is one of the reasons why I'm glad he left the band. It's what keeps me from listening to A Nightmare to Remember more often. It's just so cringey to me

I didn't like either the harmonies or the leads. I don't think his voice blended well with JL, whereas JP's did a bit more. Wouldn't have minded him doing harmonies live if they kept them turned way down, but I would have preferred that everything on the albums be handled by JL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 25, 2017, 06:09:07 PM
Re: the 12 steps - I like it. I don't think it's the best thing ever, but I like all the songs, did see the Shattered Fortress, and would have liked to have seen DT do it. I especially like The Glass Prison and The Root of All Evil, think This Dying Soul and Repentance are very good, and think The Shattered Fortress wraps it all up really well. When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on November 26, 2017, 06:57:15 AM
My controversial opinion is that the Shattered Fortress shows captured the vibe and energy of the mid 2000's DT, much more so than the current DT concerts. I saw DT with Mangini 6 times already, and those were great shows, but nowhere near as impactful as the ones with MP. I'll continue to support them whenever I can, and will see them live if I like the album they're promoting, but for me, the magical element has been lost. I know, I know, "get over it, move forward"...but it's just not the same, sorry...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 26, 2017, 07:09:54 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 25, 2017, 06:09:07 PM
When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.

That's because it's the only decent and likely original part of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:17:33 AM
Quote from: TAC on November 26, 2017, 07:09:54 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 25, 2017, 06:09:07 PM
When I listen to TSF alone, I almost always find myself singing "I am responsible..." at the end.

That's because it's the only decent and likely original part of the song.

Nah, I like the song. If people were running around calling it one of their best, maybe I'd say it was overrated, but I don't know. I think it closes out the suite well and while it's the least original of the 5 songs, I'm OK with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
Scarred and Voices are doubleplus ungood.
I'm not actually a fan of DT's instrumentals, except for Hell's Kitchen.
The FII demos aren't as good as the final product.
Prophets of War is good. So is Ministry of Lost Souls. Forsaken is not.
Afterlife is the only good song on WDADU.
JP's religion-inspired lyrics are my least favorite thing about post-MP DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:33:35 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on November 26, 2017, 06:57:15 AM
My controversial opinion is that the Shattered Fortress shows captured the vibe and energy of the mid 2000's DT, much more so than the current DT concerts. I saw DT with Mangini 6 times already, and those were great shows, but nowhere near as impactful as the ones with MP. I'll continue to support them whenever I can, and will see them live if I like the album they're promoting, but for me, the magical element has been lost. I know, I know, "get over it, move forward"...but it's just not the same, sorry...

My experience was almost the opposite. It was indeed a great show, and there was more energy from the crowd, which was general admission and standing, than the seated Astonishing crowds.  (Not more than the standing crowds on the current tour though.)  But it just wasn't DT. I was perfectly happy with Haken and really have only one complaint about an otherwise great show. But I was struggling to explain my overall feelings to a friend who was also there, and he finally chimed in with, "you feel like you just saw the world's best DT cover band?" And that was it exactly. I don't even mean it in a bad way - they did a tremendous job. But there were times when you just really missed <insert DT member here> throughout the show.

A few people commented on how all 3 guitar players just stood there the whole night and had less energy than JP ever did.  No problem with that on my end - they were trying to get it right. But I will agree with them that the band as a whole isn't more energetic than DT, and I think I'd kinda less, MP aside.

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 26, 2017, 11:57:24 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
Scarred and Voices are doubleplus ungood.

They are both essential DT.

Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
I'm not actually a fan of DT's instrumentals, except for Hell's Kitchen.

Hell's Kitchen is actually my least favorite DT Instrumental.

Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
The FII demos aren't as good as the final product.

Neither are really that great. FII is a three song album for me (Trial Of Tears, Lines, Peruvian Skies). (And Raise The Knife). That said, the finished Lines is definitely better than the Demo Lines.

Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
Prophets of War is good. So is Ministry of Lost Souls. Forsaken is not.

I like all three.


Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
Afterlife is the only good song on WDADU.

Every song s good, except for Status Seeker.




 :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on November 26, 2017, 11:59:06 AM
Ugh, Scarred and Voices just go on way too long, and I think James is way too over the top with his vocals. It makes me cringe especially in Voices. One of the few times I wish he would've just reeled it in a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 26, 2017, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:33:35 AM

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 26, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 26, 2017, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:33:35 AM

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 26, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
I'm going to second a lot of what's been said about the Twelve Step Song Cycle. The cycle as a whole doesn't really work since it's pretty much 60 minutes of non-stop in-your face metal with the only reprieve being Repentance. The songs tend to work much better when they stand on their own (and The Root of All Evil works even better in the context of Octavarium). The Glass Prison is okay overall, but it desperately needs to take a cue from Opeth and shove a quiet middle section in there. This Dying Soul and The Root of All Evil are the strongest songs, and Repentance is literally my least favorite DT song. The Breaking the Fourth Wall version of The Shattered Fortress is so much better than the studio version, as the solos flow a lot better (that JR keyboard trade off is soooo good) and the cheesy bits feel less cheesy somehow.

And I've never really been a fan of MP's vocals, growled or otherwise. JP's voice has a nice natural timbre to it (like on that one demo version of Withered), but I can tell that it's unrefined and he could be fairly good with some lessons or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 26, 2017, 02:05:58 PM
JP's voice is nowhere near as good as MPs. The difference is that JP has more self awareness so you don't hear it that often. Meanwhile, MP realizes he can hit the F# that James hits, so he shoehorns it into The Razors Edge and thinks he's a god :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 26, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 25, 2017, 03:31:50 PM
What threw me off with Shattered Fortress was the ending. It sounds like JLB was gonna do something akin to the F# from Learning To Live, but decided his voice wasn't up to it that day

You make it sound as if it's somehow JL's fault that he didn't go up there or something.  Like there was one day and one chance to do this vocal moment.  Come on.

Since this is an MP-driven song you know he's definitely calling the shots on it and that includes how JL does his vocal so if you want to point fingers at anyone for not ball-busting this last vocal point them at MP.  If anything, JL *could* have done it in-studio and then bailed on it live and then you know there'd be crying about it from the fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on November 26, 2017, 07:06:23 PM
It is a disappointing, anticlimactic cadence to end on, though. I also expected a high note to close it out, but it just... fizzled. And that's what I'll remember it as. A big, wet fizzle.

Fucking killer solo from Petrucci in TSF, though. Wow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 26, 2017, 07:12:20 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on November 26, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 26, 2017, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:33:35 AM

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear.

But. but, some Portnoy diehards having been saying for years that he was always DT's true frontman.  Maybe seeing that footage will make some realize that there is more to being a legit frontman than standing up at your drum set and swinging one arm, with drum stick in hand, to get the crowd going.

Quote from: Kattelox on November 26, 2017, 07:06:23 PM
It is a disappointing, anticlimactic cadence to end on, though. I also expected a high note to close it out, but it just... fizzled. And that's what I'll remember it as. A big, wet fizzle.

Fucking killer solo from Petrucci in TSF, though. Wow.

Agreed. On it own, The Shattered Fortress is a good song, but as the finale to an hour-long suite, it is pretty underwhelming.  The climatic ending just isn't there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 26, 2017, 07:13:20 PM
And to build on what Petfish said, there is nothing on SC or BC&SL that shows off JLB's range. The vocal producer is guilty of stifling one of DT strongest assets. If anything, the BC&SL Cover Album proves that in the studio, James can pull off anything. He was severely underutilized on those last two MP albums. Coincidence?

That said, what he did sing was fucking flawless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on November 26, 2017, 08:00:17 PM
One of my favorite JLB moments on either SC or BC&SL is this partial verse in In The Presence Of Enemies Part 2:

Quote
I cannot see his face
But I could feel his spite
A presence from the dead
Abandoned by the light
This shadow will consume him
from within

Absolutely love how his voice sounds here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 26, 2017, 08:01:40 PM
 :metal

Agreed!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 26, 2017, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 26, 2017, 07:12:20 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on November 26, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 26, 2017, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: Lethean on November 26, 2017, 08:33:35 AM

Also, MP managed to deflate the whole room for a while by singing Repentance. I'm sure there were plenty in the audience who thought it was fine, but there were also a lot who felt he should have just let Ross do it. A lot of people seemed to feel very uncomfortable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajJkgNOslUM

Didn't think that would be the case, but yeah... Seems like an awkward karaoke. much better when he's doing drums and vocals simultaneously

I would rather he do neither and just let Ross sing. 

And I get that he isn't a frontman and him singing the song is a special sort of thing but man, that stage presence.  He's gotta figure out what he's doing.  That awkward shuffling back and forth, random brief air drumming, air guitar, sitting on the drum riser...it was actually kind of uncomfortable to watch...and hear.

But. but, some Portnoy diehards having been saying for years that he was always DT's true frontman.  Maybe seeing that footage will make some realize that there is more to being a legit frontman than standing up at your drum set and swinging one arm, with drum stick in hand, to get the crowd going.

 :lol

It's a damn good thing his drumset kept him relatively stationary otherwise he would shuffle back and forth *and* swing his arm with drumstick in hand. There would be no question who the true frontman is then!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JoeMLennon on November 27, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing.  I hope they prove me wrong and put out some unbelievable album in 2019, but I just can't get into the albums post portnoy as much as the earlier ones.  I am guessing the songwriting dynamic is just much different now than compared to when MP was in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 27, 2017, 06:48:30 PM
Quote from: JoeMLennon on November 27, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing. 

I doubt they regret it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JoeMLennon on November 27, 2017, 07:49:32 PM
Yeah perhaps you are right.  I have no idea how they feel about it, obviously.  For me, I just feel like that band isn't the same when I see them play and the albums post portnoy just the songs don't seem like as many great songs as the ones with MP.  To me some of the songs are more forgettable in the last three studio albums.  Like for Train of Thought, Octavarium, SFAM when I heard those for the first time, six degrees I was hooked, the post portnoy albums not so much.  I just gotta think that having one of the main guys no longer in that process affects the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on November 27, 2017, 07:52:20 PM
How much did Portnoy have to do with the songwriting (music not lyrics) anyway?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 27, 2017, 08:25:49 PM
Quote from: JoeMLennon on November 27, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing.  I hope they prove me wrong and put out some unbelievable album in 2019, but I just can't get into the albums post portnoy as much as the earlier ones.  I am guessing the songwriting dynamic is just much different now than compared to when MP was in the band.

Of course they won't be the same but why is that a bad thing?  I also doubt (hope) he never comes back, not even for a one-off show/song, Mangini is THE DRUMMER now and the music is awesome as usual.

I also don't think DT regret the situation they're in now, they are kicking ass, and I'm sure the pros of MP gone outweigh the cons.  I would like to think they regret what happened at the time but there's no way they regret it now and the fact that MP just can't stop talking shit shows just how much he still regrets it.

Yes, things are different, but that isn't necessarily bad just like staying the same could also be disappointing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 27, 2017, 08:53:17 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on November 27, 2017, 07:52:20 PM
How much did Portnoy have to do with the songwriting (music not lyrics) anyway?

From what we know, not much. 

He would be somewhat involved in the arrangement of the songs or the vocal melodies but John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess are the main songwriters. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 27, 2017, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: PetFish on November 27, 2017, 08:25:49 PM
Quote from: JoeMLennon on November 27, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
This thread is too, long so I gotta think this has been covered but here is some controversy.  DT won't be the same until Portnoy comes back which may not happen for quite a while.  The band lost some major mojo without his input into the songwriting process.  He did it to himself and they were left with no choice once he basically tried to shut the band down, so it is in my opinion mostly his doing which could have all been avoided.  He put them in a position where they had to move on without him and now he seems to have been regretting it ever since.  I am sure they regret it too, but it wasn't their doing.  I hope they prove me wrong and put out some unbelievable album in 2019, but I just can't get into the albums post portnoy as much as the earlier ones.  I am guessing the songwriting dynamic is just much different now than compared to when MP was in the band.


Of course they won't be the same but why is that a bad thing?  I also doubt (hope) he never comes back, not even for a one-off show/song, Mangini is THE DRUMMER now and the music is awesome as usual.

I also don't think DT regret the situation they're in now, they are kicking ass, and I'm sure the pros of MP gone outweigh the cons.  I would like to think they regret what happened at the time but there's no way they regret it now and the fact that MP just can't stop talking shit shows just how much he still regrets it.

Yes, things are different, but that isn't necessarily bad just like staying the same could also be disappointing.

+1 to all of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JoeMLennon on November 28, 2017, 05:27:02 PM
ok fine. So if Portnoy didn't write the songs, then I guess I am left with the last three albums I just don't like as much.  If  Portnoy came back/comes back maybe they would have been similarly not as great as previous ones.  Heres to hoping the 2019 album is another great one I can really get into.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 04, 2017, 05:02:24 PM
I just thought what if DT would play JLB's solo songs in their setlist. How could they sound in their hands and how they fit well into DT style.

Slightly Out Of Reach and Confronting The Devil are my candidates.

My dreamy setlist would like;

A Nightmare To Remember
Status Seeker
*Guardian Angel
Endless Sacrifice
Take Away My Pain
*Confronting The Devil
In The Name Of God
---
The Glass Prison
The Mind Beside Itself
I-Erotamaina
II- Voices
III- The Silent Man
*Venice Burning
*Crucify
The Killing Hand
*Slightly Out Of Reach
---
Metropolis - Part I
One Last Time / Finally Free


I can't add James' last two albums since IMO, they can't fit DT style well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheAtliator on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
Guys... Portnoy ANYTHING BUT regrets leaving Dream Theater.

And that shouldn't really be a controversial opinion... Or even an opinion  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 04, 2017, 08:52:19 PM
???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on December 05, 2017, 12:01:12 AM
Quote from: TheAtliator on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
Guys... Portnoy ANYTHING BUT regrets leaving Dream Theater.

And that shouldn't really be a controversial opinion... Or even an opinion  :lol

A third option would be that it's a lie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 05, 2017, 01:08:41 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 04, 2017, 05:02:24 PM
I just thought what if DT would play JLB's solo songs in their setlist. How could they sound in their hands and how they fit well into DT style.

Slightly Out Of Reach and Confronting The Devil are my candidates.

My dreamy setlist would like;

A Nightmare To Remember
Status Seeker
*Guardian Angel
Endless Sacrifice
Take Away My Pain
*Confronting The Devil
In The Name Of God
---
The Glass Prison
The Mind Beside Itself
I-Erotamaina
II- Voices
III- The Silent Man
*Venice Burning
*Crucify
The Killing Hand
*Slightly Out Of Reach
---
Metropolis - Part I
One Last Time / Finally Free


I can't add James' last two albums since IMO, they can't fit DT style well.

On principle I'm against taking space away from DT songs, but I wouldn't complain at all.

All the solo songs you picked are good, I just wouldn't close the set with Slightly Out of Reach (or any other James song for that matter) and sorry, but I can live without ever hearing Status Seeker  :lol but for the rest it's a nice balanced set.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 05, 2017, 07:00:22 AM
Quote from: TheAtliator on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
Guys... Portnoy ANYTHING BUT regrets leaving Dream Theater.

And that shouldn't really be a controversial opinion... Or even an opinion  :lol
Well, in that case, he sure does a really good job at making it look like it's something that will haunt him for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on December 05, 2017, 07:10:24 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 05, 2017, 07:00:22 AM
Quote from: TheAtliator on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
Guys... Portnoy ANYTHING BUT regrets leaving Dream Theater.

And that shouldn't really be a controversial opinion... Or even an opinion  :lol
Well, in that case, he sure does a really good job at making it look like it's something that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

 :lol For sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on December 05, 2017, 07:10:59 AM
Quote from: TheAtliator on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 PM
Guys... Portnoy ANYTHING BUT regrets leaving Dream Theater.

And that shouldn't really be a controversial opinion... Or even an opinion  :lol

Welcome to the forum, portnoy :)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 09, 2017, 12:07:32 PM
I think Labrie over sings a bit live, which I don't think is very controversial - pretty sure most would agree. It can SOMETIMES kill the vibe of a song or a part, but 80% of the time it doesn't bother me too much. But if I could change anything about his execution, it would be his diction, or lack thereof. Having good diction really shows a singer's professionalism, and I know Labrie is extremely professional which is why it's so crazy that he has such a problem in that department. It's really something he's always had issues with, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on December 09, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAUyqHUUkyo

He can enunciate when he wants to  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 09, 2017, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: Evai on December 09, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAUyqHUUkyo

He can enunciate when he wants to  :o

The "land of the free" was a bit too much. I was expecting him to sing "the land of tha fraaaay" straight away. He started the note ok, but couldn't resist going for the open vowel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sycsa on December 10, 2017, 06:55:51 AM
Quote from: Evai on December 09, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAUyqHUUkyo

He can enunciate when he wants to  :o
That was awesome. :lol
The land of the freeee YAAAAAAAY. At that point, I expected him to go all in and end with a brave-AHHH.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on December 10, 2017, 07:44:14 AM
Quote from: Sycsa on December 10, 2017, 06:55:51 AM
Quote from: Evai on December 09, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAUyqHUUkyo

He can enunciate when he wants to  :o
That was awesome. :lol
The land of the freeee YAAAAAAAY. At that point, I expected him to go all in and end with a brave-AHHH.

I can totally imagine how he'd do it nowadays; switching between the 'emotional breathy falsetto' and the 'rawr metal scream' voices he uses now
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on December 10, 2017, 09:52:29 AM
Thanks for posting that - I hadn't heard it before. Sounded great. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on December 10, 2017, 12:35:55 PM
My controversial opinion: I don’t find anything special about the keyboard intro on LITS. I think that some fans, and specially Derek, think it’s way better/cooler than it actually is.

The best Sherinian keyboard moment with DT, imo, is THAT solo on Trial of Tears :hefdaddy (still don’t like Derek as a person, though).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on December 10, 2017, 02:02:12 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on December 10, 2017, 12:35:55 PM
My controversial opinion: I don’t find anything special about the keyboard intro on LITS. I think that some fans, and specially Derek, think it’s way better/cooler than it actually is.

The best Sherinian keyboard moment with DT, imo, is THAT solo on Trial of Tears :hefdaddy (still don’t like Derek as a person, though).

LITS as a whole is overrated. Petrucci's solo is the only good thing about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on December 10, 2017, 02:50:56 PM
Man. From all the LITS love in recent months on Derek/SoA's social media I thought I was the only one who thought LITS was kinda... not amazing, not bad, just comfortably in the middle. The synth part is cool but nothing mindblowing or anything. I also agree the ToT solo is far better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 10, 2017, 02:57:25 PM
The best part of LITS is 4:15-4:30, MP's drum pattern. To this day probably my favorite drumming of his.

Other than that, JP+JM in the first verse. JP playing this percussive clean lick, and JM is actually audible and sounds fantastic.

The chorus however is so weak, so weak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on December 10, 2017, 03:46:50 PM
My favorite part of the song personally is that bare bones piano version of the "main riff" from 9:44-10:14. The guitar solo is really cool too, but that riff is just tasty.

I agree with what's been said about the intro synth solo and the choruses. Definitely the low points of the song, especially the guest vocals from Dough Pinnick. All in all a totally mid-tier song for me.

Quote from: gzarruk on December 10, 2017, 12:35:55 PM
My controversial opinion: I don’t find anything special about the keyboard intro on LITS. I think that some fans, and specially Derek, think it’s way better/cooler than it actually is.

The best Sherinian keyboard moment with DT, imo, is THAT solo on Trial of Tears :hefdaddy (still don’t like Derek as a person, though).

Agreed 100%. The keyboard solo from ToT is one of the high points of the entire album for me. Sooo good
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on December 18, 2017, 04:56:52 AM
Just listened to The Astonishing again, one thing kinda sticks out to me. This part in Path That Divides:

I knew the day had come
And you could be tempted
To give up the chosen one
And finally end this
Do anything for your son
A terminal weakness

Is sung completely monotone on one note. IT WORKS... but it could be better, since this is such an exciting part of the song. IN MY OPINION, some Portnoy 'tough guy' vocals could've helped.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on December 18, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
Never really thought about that before, but could the reasoning be that the tough guy vocals were used for Nafaryus so JLB went this route for Daryus?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on December 18, 2017, 04:29:24 PM
Maybe controversial, who knows: Goodnight Kiss, influenced by Gymnopedie No.1?

https://youtu.be/S-Xm7s9eGxU
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 18, 2017, 07:18:41 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 18, 2017, 04:29:24 PM
Maybe controversial, who knows: Goodnight Kiss, influenced by Gymnopedie No.1?

https://youtu.be/S-Xm7s9eGxU

 :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on December 18, 2017, 07:21:28 PM
Quote from: rumborak on December 18, 2017, 04:29:24 PM
Maybe controversial, who knows: Goodnight Kiss, influenced by Gymnopedie No.1?

https://youtu.be/S-Xm7s9eGxU

For some reason I read that as Glasgow Kiss and was waiting for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 19, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQp_81q7b3g

This is better than Breaking The Fourth Wall DVD, especially vocally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on December 19, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 19, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQp_81q7b3g

This is better than Breaking The Fourth Wall DVD, especially vocally.

Great performance! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on December 19, 2017, 05:53:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on December 19, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 19, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQp_81q7b3g

This is better than Breaking The Fourth Wall DVD, especially vocally.

Great performance! :metal

Yea that is one hell of a performance
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on December 20, 2017, 03:08:59 AM
It's just weird that James sang Trial Of Tears and Awake Set (especially Scarred) effortlessly while in the DVD he seemed struggle a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on December 20, 2017, 03:39:44 AM
You can't plan a DVD around when a singer has a good vocal day. "Quick! James is sounding good! Get the camera crew!"  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 20, 2017, 04:04:17 AM
Quote from: Evai on December 20, 2017, 03:39:44 AM
You can't plan a DVD around when a singer has a good vocal day. "Quick! James is sounding good! Get the camera crew!"  :lol

And then someone in the venue staff turns on an aircon that was previously shut, affecting all of a sudden James' performance towards the end, and the recording crew goes FFFFUUUUUUUUUU  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on December 20, 2017, 07:15:34 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on December 19, 2017, 05:53:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on December 19, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on December 19, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQp_81q7b3g

This is better than Breaking The Fourth Wall DVD, especially vocally.

Great performance! :metal

Yea that is one hell of a performance

For real, that was awesome. And yeah, the voice is such a fickle thing one day those high notes can be there and another day not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on January 16, 2018, 05:44:48 PM
The Astonishing is my favourite DT album. But I was imagining if Charlie Dominci sang The Astonishing like he sang WDADU, and realized I'd probably like it better.  :lol  A lot of the rocky/proggy songs would COME TO LIFE if they had legitimately strong, high, not-too-processed vocals on them. (If I had a time machine, the first thing I would do is go back in time to the 90's, grab JLB, get him to re-record (pre-record?) The Astonishing, then send him back in time. And give him some lottery numbers so he can be rich. But then forget to tell him not to go on vacations)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on March 18, 2018, 04:50:36 PM
Eve > The Dance of Eternity
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 18, 2018, 06:52:36 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on March 18, 2018, 04:50:36 PM
Eve > The Dance of Eternity

Not controversial at all, if you ask me.

Eve is a wonderfully melodic gem, one of those songs you let just wash over you.

The Dance of Eternity is great if you are into musicians doing a "look at us play fast and in odd time signatures" kinda song, but it is devoid of any real memorable melodies, and 18 years later, it's still a slight annoyance that it ruins the flow of the second half of Scenes from a Memory.  It doesn't fit at all with the rest of the album and sticks out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: npiazza91 on March 19, 2018, 12:40:20 AM
Images and words is my #11 DT album, only beating WDADU and The Astonishing.  I really don't like that 80's style synth mood that the album has on it.  The album just sounds like a lot of synth without the moody atmosphere of later albums.  Awake is so amazing because it's so dark and atmospheric.  IAW just sounds like 80's synth, not to mention every instrument sounds light, nothing sounds heavy or dark in any way.  I like when DT goes dark.  Voices alone kicks the crap out of anything on IAW.

Also Metropolis is the most overrated rock/metal song of all time.  Not just DT...in all of rock and metal.  I don't hate the song, but I really don't like it.  It has some good ideas, but the transitions are not fluid at all and the song as a whole just doesn't work.  Watch Lost in Vegas's reaction to it..I agree with them 100%.  I don't know how Metropolis Pt 1 became so poular among DT fans.  The song has a good intro, then just meaders its way to the finish line, doing whatever it wants without any flow.  Good bass solo though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2018, 02:14:47 AM
Quote from: npiazza91 on March 19, 2018, 12:40:20 AM
Images and words is my #11 DT album, only beating WDADU and The Astonishing.  I really don't like that 80's style synth mood that the album has on it.  The album just sounds like a lot of synth without the moody atmosphere of later albums.  Awake is so amazing because it's so dark and atmospheric.  IAW just sounds like 80's synth, not to mention every instrument sounds light, nothing sounds heavy or dark in any way.  I like when DT goes dark.  Voices alone kicks the crap out of anything on IAW.

Also Metropolis is the most overrated rock/metal song of all time.  Not just DT...in all of rock and metal.  I don't hate the song, but I really don't like it.  It has some good ideas, but the transitions are not fluid at all and the song as a whole just doesn't work.  Watch Lost in Vegas's reaction to it..I agree with them 100%.  I don't know how Metropolis Pt 1 became so poular among DT fans.  The song has a good intro, then just meaders its way to the finish line, doing whatever it wants without any flow.  Good bass solo though.

Interestingly, you say you don't like I&W because its 80's happy synth and light instrument sound. Yet, go on to say you like when DT goes dark. Then says Metropolis pt.1 is an overrated song...

I'm confused.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on March 19, 2018, 06:23:46 AM
Dance Of Eternity is the real Metropolis Part 2
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 19, 2018, 06:28:47 AM
Quote from: Evai on March 19, 2018, 06:23:46 AM
Dance Of Eternity is the real Metropolis Part 2

I'd consider it Home. 'Cause it's one of the big epics of the album and because it has some prominent lyrical and musical callbacks to the original song. I could see seeing The Dance of Eternity as the "sequel", but to me if Metropolis part 2 would have been a single song, Home deserves more that title.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 19, 2018, 06:59:09 PM
Honestly I think the most overrate (and i think I've shared this opinion before) is The Spirit Carries On. It's as medicore as it comes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kaos2900 on March 20, 2018, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 19, 2018, 06:59:09 PM
Honestly I think the most overrate (and i think I've shared this opinion before) is The Spirit Carries On. It's as medicore as it comes.

I'll respectfully disagree. That song has a ridiculous amount of emotion when played live. I saw them play that song shortly after my grandfather passed away and I was in tears.

Not sure if this would be controversial but the best cover DT has ever done is Iron Maiden's Gangland.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Peter Mc on March 20, 2018, 08:32:00 AM
Not sure it's my favourite but that's an awesome cover, assuming we're talking the jazzy version on the MOP live cd.  All those live cover cd's are so good, some of JP's playing on Made In Japan is crazy good and their version of Dark Side Of The Moon is stunning.  Gangland was an unexpected treat though as everything else on those cds are pretty straight covers with embellishments in some of the solos and stuff whereas this was a totally different interpretation of the song.

My controversial opinions, though not sure how controversial, are that Octavarium is DT's worst album and JP looked cooler with short hair!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 20, 2018, 08:41:05 AM
This might not be controversial, but I don't care at all about DT playing covers. Their original music is much better anyway.

Quote from: Peter Mc on March 20, 2018, 08:32:00 AM
My controversial opinions, though not sure how controversial, are that Octavarium is DT's worst album and JP looked cooler with short hair!

I wouldn't say Octavarium is their worst, but it certainly is very overrated for an album where half of the songs are good and the other half not that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 20, 2018, 08:44:25 AM
Yeah, it's a great song.  I remember the first time I heard it as I was listening to the album for the first time, and it immediately struck me as pretty special (I was in the parking lot at Topanga Mall in Woodland Hills, CA waiting for my wife and listening to it on the car stereo).  That said, I have tired of it a bit from hearing it played live so much.  That doesn't make it less of a song.  But it does make me less inclined to want to listen to it.

Interesting call on Gangland.  I'm not sure I would say it is their "best."  But it is a really cool, creative take.  At the time I got that covers disk, I don't think I had ever heard the original, so I was pretty intrigued by how different it sounded from the rest of the album.  I don't want to say I was "let down" when I finally heard the Maiden version.  But I was surprised, that's for sure.  :lol

Regarding Octavarium:  It definitely has some tracks that I know can be in the lower tier on a lot of fan rankings.  If you happen to fall on the side of not liking most or all of those, I can see how it might be your least favorite album.  For me, it has a couple of my least favorite.  But it also has some of my most favorite as well, so it's really a mixed bag.  Overall, I think it's a great album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2018, 09:49:26 AM
I don't play 8V very much these days but I do think the worst songs on it (for my taste) are still quite a bit better than a lot of their other stuff. There just seems to be a structure to the album that feels so much more solid than the albums surrounding it (ToT, SC, BC&SL), and the Score version of Sacrificed Sons is even better, I think. More ballads like The Answer Lies Within would be nice, instead we got Forsaken and Wither...  :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 20, 2018, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on March 20, 2018, 09:49:26 AM
More ballads like The Answer Lies Within would be nice, instead we got Forsaken and Wither...  :tdwn

Which I like both more than (the anyway good) The Answer Lies Within  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: the_silent_man on March 20, 2018, 10:06:04 AM
Personally, I would prefer if they steered clear of ballads for the most part on their next album, with maybe 1 semi ballad. I'd say since their glory days of early 90s - mid 2000s their ballads have been generally the weakest songs on their albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 20, 2018, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: the_silent_man on March 20, 2018, 10:06:04 AM
Personally, I would prefer if they steered clear of ballads for the most part on their next album, with maybe 1 semi ballad. I'd say since their glory days of early 90s - mid 2000s their ballads have been generally the weakest songs on their albums.

Hmmm...I quite like Along for the Ride, Beneath the Surface and Wither (especially).  Hollow Years and Anna Lee are two of my favorite songs on FII, and Lifting Shadows is excellent.  I liked Another Day when I&W first came out, but it hasn't aged well for me.  Those "ballads" that I didn't mention I don't like as much (count me in the camp that thinks TSCO is overrated, but I agree that it's much better live), but I think they've done pretty well with quality "ballads" throughout their career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
As much as I rag on Forsaken and Wither, DT still puts out amazing ballads. Beneath the Surface could very well be top 10 DT songs for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 20, 2018, 12:37:32 PM
I wouldn't consider Forsaken a ballad by any stretch.  But top notch song in any case.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on March 20, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
I think I meant to put Repentance in the first post I made but just rolled with it because Forsaken and Repentance are both tripe  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 22, 2018, 04:38:00 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 20, 2018, 09:50:48 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on March 20, 2018, 09:49:26 AM
More ballads like The Answer Lies Within would be nice, instead we got Forsaken and Wither...  :tdwn

Which I like both more than (the anyway good) The Answer Lies Within  ;D

But Forsaken and Wither are much better songs . . . .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on March 27, 2018, 04:25:59 AM
Is 'Wither' even that different from 'The Answer Lies Within'? I don't think there's much of a stylistic contrast there. 'Another Day' and 'The Silent Man' are both further away than 'Wither' is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2018, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.


TALW is basically the intro to Bohemian Rhapsody without the payoff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 28, 2018, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2018, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.


TALW is basically the intro to Bohemian Rhapsody without the payoff.

I have no idea what this even means.  I'll just agree with ReaperKK and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 28, 2018, 09:21:59 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2018, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.


TALW is basically the intro to Bohemian Rhapsody without the payoff.

Wut?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on March 28, 2018, 09:36:33 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2018, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.


TALW is basically the intro to Bohemian Rhapsody without the payoff.


Totally. I also always thought that Hallow Years was basically the middle section of Back in Black without the similarity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 29, 2018, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Adami on March 28, 2018, 09:36:33 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 28, 2018, 12:40:20 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.


TALW is basically the intro to Bohemian Rhapsody without the payoff.


Totally. I also always thought that Hallow Years was basically the middle section of Back in Black without the similarity.

I salute you Adami.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on March 29, 2018, 09:23:14 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2018, 04:50:15 AM
Wither is better than The Answer Lies Within, the main difference is Wither is a good song and TALW is a very not good song.

TALW rules :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 29, 2018, 11:23:09 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox link=topic=35056.msg2417518#msg2417518 date=1521570723. , DT still puts out amazing ballads. Beneath the Surface could very well be top 10 DT songs for me.
[/quote
Yeah great song.  "Chosen" is an incredible song too,  one of my favorite DT songs!  Radio stations should be playing these two songs all over the place..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 29, 2018, 05:40:39 PM
(Re: TALW discussion) The tone they were trying to go for on TALW was done a lot better on Act Of Faythe & Chosen imo

(Re: Controversial opinions) I've been listening to ADTOE again lately, & I've been shocked at how difficult it is for me to get to the end of that album. It's not bad by any means, but listening from beginning to end is just so tedious imo.

Also, I think I just flat-out hate the song Outcry. It's a generic rebellion anthem with nothing special about it, & the middle section serves absolutely no purpose & it just makes the song a chore to listen to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on March 31, 2018, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on March 29, 2018, 05:40:39 PM
Also, I think I just flat-out hate the song Outcry. It's a generic rebellion anthem with nothing special about it, & the middle section serves absolutely no purpose & it just makes the song a chore to listen to.

From what I've seen on here, I think I might be one of the only people who actually likes the Outcry middle section and thinks it fits the song well. I've always interpreted it as the actual fight of the rebellion, with a lot of very fast and dramatic passages that move around a bit chaotically. It reminds me a bit of how film composers (I'm thinking mostly John Williams rn since I just watched The Last Jedi last night) will score fight scenes, with uneven and sudden accents hitting on sword strikes or explosions or other dramatic moments in the scene. I think the chaotic nature of the section is also kind of reminiscent of how actual rebellions seem to flow. There's a lot of little pieces doing there own thing in the fight, and it feels like it's cutting to different "characters" and "scenes" as it shows them doing their own little missions in the larger battle. They also bring back themes and develop them a little bit throughout that chaotic section so that there's some structure to it and it's not just free jazz.

Then the quiet section right after that is the aftermath of the battle as the dust settles, which has this rousing undercurrent to it as the rebels slowly realize "oh crap man we actually won that". Then some dude steps up and is like "hey, we won the battle but not the war, there's still work to do" and gives a "don't go quietly to cancel our independence day on the beaches"-type speech to rouse them up so they're ready for the next battle. Also drinks are on him

idk that's how I've always interpreted it. Might be reading too much into it, but whatever, just a thing that my mind do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 31, 2018, 10:34:57 AM
Outcry is one of my favorite songs from ADTOE, and the instrumental break fits exactly with the story, the way you explain it :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nattmorker on April 01, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
Quote from: Ninjabait on March 31, 2018, 09:40:55 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on March 29, 2018, 05:40:39 PM
Also, I think I just flat-out hate the song Outcry. It's a generic rebellion anthem with nothing special about it, & the middle section serves absolutely no purpose & it just makes the song a chore to listen to.

From what I've seen on here, I think I might be one of the only people who actually likes the Outcry middle section and thinks it fits the song well. I've always interpreted it as the actual fight of the rebellion, with a lot of very fast and dramatic passages that move around a bit chaotically. It reminds me a bit of how film composers (I'm thinking mostly John Williams rn since I just watched The Last Jedi last night) will score fight scenes, with uneven and sudden accents hitting on sword strikes or explosions or other dramatic moments in the scene. I think the chaotic nature of the section is also kind of reminiscent of how actual rebellions seem to flow. There's a lot of little pieces doing there own thing in the fight, and it feels like it's cutting to different "characters" and "scenes" as it shows them doing their own little missions in the larger battle. They also bring back themes and develop them a little bit throughout that chaotic section so that there's some structure to it and it's not just free jazz.

Then the quiet section right after that is the aftermath of the battle as the dust settles, which has this rousing undercurrent to it as the rebels slowly realize "oh crap man we actually won that". Then some dude steps up and is like "hey, we won the battle but not the war, there's still work to do" and gives a "don't go quietly to cancel our independence day on the beaches"-type speech to rouse them up so they're ready for the next battle. Also drinks are on him

idk that's how I've always interpreted it. Might be reading too much into it, but whatever, just a thing that my mind do.

I have always felt this way about that middle section, I love it! It's one of my favorite DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 03, 2018, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2018, 02:14:47 AM
Quote from: npiazza91 on March 19, 2018, 12:40:20 AM
Images and words is my #11 DT album, only beating WDADU and The Astonishing.  I really don't like that 80's style synth mood that the album has on it.  The album just sounds like a lot of synth without the moody atmosphere of later albums.  Awake is so amazing because it's so dark and atmospheric.  IAW just sounds like 80's synth, not to mention every instrument sounds light, nothing sounds heavy or dark in any way.  I like when DT goes dark.  Voices alone kicks the crap out of anything on IAW.

Also Metropolis is the most overrated rock/metal song of all time.  Not just DT...in all of rock and metal.  I don't hate the song, but I really don't like it.  It has some good ideas, but the transitions are not fluid at all and the song as a whole just doesn't work.  Watch Lost in Vegas's reaction to it..I agree with them 100%.  I don't know how Metropolis Pt 1 became so poular among DT fans.  The song has a good intro, then just meaders its way to the finish line, doing whatever it wants without any flow.  Good bass solo though.

Interestingly, you say you don't like I&W because its 80's happy synth and light instrument sound. Yet, go on to say you like when DT goes dark. Then says Metropolis pt.1 is an overrated song...

I'm confused.

Metropolis isn't particuarly dark and it has those badly-dated dorky Kevin Moore sounds that are found throughout the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Renzo on April 03, 2018, 03:45:27 PM
Don't know if it's controversial or not but I personally don't like one of DT's biggest influence, Rush.

I prefer Genesis and King Crimson anytime soon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on April 04, 2018, 10:48:51 AM
No cotroversy, people either like Rush or they don't.  I absolutely love Rush, probably my favorite band of all time! 
 I have a few friends that don't like Rush,  so I quit hanging out with them.....just kidding!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Since MM has been the topic of choice lately, this was suggested the other day on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/pG8ddJ9yO6w
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2018, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Since MM has been the topic of choice lately, this was suggested the other day on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/pG8ddJ9yO6w


Yea, I remember seeing that. It gets really weird after a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 12:00:50 PM
Yeah. During the first 10 seconds I really agree with him, but then his argument starts drifting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 12:02:22 PM
Also, did you guys see that MrDreamtheater2, probably the most awesome DT-related channel ever, rage-quit and deleted everything?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 08, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2018, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Since MM has been the topic of choice lately, this was suggested the other day on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/pG8ddJ9yO6w


Yea, I remember seeing that. It gets really weird after a bit.

That video should be called “Why I have a very strong opinion and my totally biased, cherrypicked video will show that.”
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2018, 01:40:15 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 08, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2018, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Since MM has been the topic of choice lately, this was suggested the other day on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/pG8ddJ9yO6w


Yea, I remember seeing that. It gets really weird after a bit.

That video should be called “Why I have a very strong opinion and my totally biased, cherrypicked video will show that.”

Given the titles of some of his other videos, that wouldn't be too shocking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
I don't know if it's right place to bring that matter to the forum but there is a youtube channel that includes videos just to bash James LaBrie in every negative way possible. It's like his/her life depends on it. Kind of funny I guess.

PS: I didn't search for the channel, it was displayed on my youtube home page. And I clicked...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfedtmUsTuqLBU7UEDGppLw/videos

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 08, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
I don't know if it's right place to bring that matter to the forum but there is a youtube channel that includes videos just to bash James LaBrie in every negative way possible. It's like his/her life depends on it. Kind of funny I guess.

PS: I didn't search for the channel, it was displayed on my youtube home page. And I clicked...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfedtmUsTuqLBU7UEDGppLw/videos

I'm at work so I can't click on that link now...but I think I know the channel you're talking about. They've been coming up in my recommended video section lately. There's a video on there that's supposedly taken by a fan during the Score performance and LaBrie sounds...very different from the official recording to put it kindly. I don't know if the guy running that channel messed with the audio in some way or if the recording is legit  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2018, 04:02:57 PM
I think Portnoy even admitted that parts of JLBs performance were redone for the DVD. I think he said it was "95%" authentic.

I'm listening to the video now. I can hear minor parts that have been touched up, but not a ton.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 08, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 08, 2018, 04:02:57 PM
I think Portnoy even admitted that parts of JLBs performance were redone for the DVD. I think he said it was "95%" authentic.

I'm listening to the video now. I can hear minor parts that have been touched up, but not a ton.

Hmm....that video could've contained the 5% part. Was auto-tune used? It doesn't seem like the vocals were re-recorded but I'm not good at noticing things like that. 

I've looked at a couple older threads and the general consensus (at least on this site) is that LaBrie sounded pretty great throughout that tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 08, 2018, 04:54:56 PM
Anything could have been used. Retuning his vocals. Re-dubbing his vocals. They're quite good as seamlessly blending in re-dubs, as evidence by JP at the beginning of Under a Glass Moon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 08, 2018, 05:29:09 PM
BTFW has a lot of dubbing as well, including even some of JM's and JP's parts. Remember when they released the promotional teaser that had a close-up of one of JP's solos, and the audio didn't match what he was playing in one section? They quickly took it down, and the actual DVD no longer shows the close-up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 09, 2018, 03:02:13 AM
Quote from: Herrick on April 08, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
I don't know if it's right place to bring that matter to the forum but there is a youtube channel that includes videos just to bash James LaBrie in every negative way possible. It's like his/her life depends on it. Kind of funny I guess.

PS: I didn't search for the channel, it was displayed on my youtube home page. And I clicked...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfedtmUsTuqLBU7UEDGppLw/videos

I'm at work so I can't click on that link now...but I think I know the channel you're talking about. They've been coming up in my recommended video section lately. There's a video on there that's supposedly taken by a fan during the Score performance and LaBrie sounds...very different from the official recording to put it kindly. I don't know if the guy running that channel messed with the audio in some way or if the recording is legit  ???

I guess you are talking about Score/Innocence Faded vocals which seems to me fake and added something by the OP.

Why? Because it goes like Score DVD but when James goes for "Condescending, not intending to end" part his voice cracked so bad. But still, you can hear the crowd cheered and clapped for that note in the video. If he'd failed so bad during this time I'd would be shocked in silence not clapped. I don't think it's the original fan footage. I remember I watched some videoes from that tour, including Innocence Faded and James was pretty fine.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 09, 2018, 04:59:55 AM
I was at Score and I honestly thought he was really on that night, and I've been very critical of JLB.

I've been to live shows where JLB has been really spectacular and ones where he has really bombed,  my take at Score was that he was on his A game.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on April 09, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
I don't know if it's right place to bring that matter to the forum but there is a youtube channel that includes videos just to bash James LaBrie in every negative way possible. It's like his/her life depends on it. Kind of funny I guess.

PS: I didn't search for the channel, it was displayed on my youtube home page. And I clicked...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfedtmUsTuqLBU7UEDGppLw/videos

Why would someone spend so much time and effort on just bashing a band?  Rhetorical question, of course but it strikes me as a waste of time.  It would be better spent saying good stuff about a band you like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 09, 2018, 07:03:49 AM
I just read the description for this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOAoFxDQVKU), & wow, this guy's kind of an asshole

Quote
It’s high time for discriminating Dream Theater fans (not the sorts of people who would mindlessly defend what the band does no matter what (nice passive aggression there m8)) to start demanding answers. Answers to questions such as:

• Why, even after cutting Matthew off due to a never-ending stream of psychotic emails, did Rudess reshare Matthew’s video as one of his “favorite things” in 2016? (because he actually liked the video maybe?)

• Why was James LaBrie so offended by a silly video that was made for purposes of parody and humor, and does he feel any remorse over calling Dream Theater’s hardest working fan from 2015-2017 (yeah, & I'm sure it's DT that have the massive egos here) a miserable loser that lives in their parent’s basement?"

• Why did Dream Theater recently sign a long-term record contract with LaBrie despite his voice being in shambles?

• Why, especially given the high technical demands of Dream Theater’s music, have they not fired LaBrie, or why has LaBrie himself not voluntarily stepped down, since he is clearly no longer anything more than an embarrassing liability to the other four members of the group? (yeah, I really wonder why JLB doesn't have the highest opinion of you)

• Why did Dream Theater continue touring at a breakneck pace even after John Petrucci’s admission that LaBrie’s voice was in shambles?

• Why does the band continue to market and hype The Astonishing as if it’s the best thing since sliced bread, when per Rate Your Music, half of the people who heard the album hated it? ("oh noes, some ppl online didn't like our album, guess it's time to cease all promotion & get rid of our main sources of income, it's not like we gotta eat or anything")

• What the hell happened to Mike Mangini on the last two albums? Was this a result of using drum samples, therefore repeating the mistake of David Prater’s Images and Words kit, or a result of Mangini having an autistic fetish with getting consistent note hits? It all sounds so flat and fake. (this one speaks for itself)

(italic brackets are my interjections, in case that wasn't clear)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 09, 2018, 07:07:29 AM
LOL.

That dude registered here making the same thread full of lawyer-like DEMANDS trying to convince everyone that Dream Theater should have not used the video of a dude that for whatever reason had a beef with him. The thread was rightfully nuked soon after. You almost feel for the dude, it's totally unhealthy to become obsessed to this point with a band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pebsie on April 09, 2018, 07:16:18 AM
Basically, he acted like an asshat and JLB called him a hater who probably lives in his mother's basement. He responds by.... deleting bis channel and creating 20 something videos bashing James with edited audio. He hasn't proven anything other than that James was probably right in his assessment.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 09, 2018, 07:16:54 AM
Controversial opinion: I revisited Scarred and Voices this weekend thanks to the Awake ranking thread, and... yeah. Very poor songs with very annoying vocals.

Also that whiny YouTube guy is an anus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 09, 2018, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on April 09, 2018, 07:16:54 AM
Controversial opinion: I revisited Scarred and Voices this weekend thanks to the Awake ranking thread, and... yeah. Very poor songs with very annoying vocals.

Also that whiny YouTube guy is an anus.

I agree with 2 of the things in your post  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 09, 2018, 01:22:50 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 09, 2018, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on April 09, 2018, 07:16:54 AM
Controversial opinion: I revisited Scarred and Voices this weekend thanks to the Awake ranking thread, and... yeah. Very poor songs with very annoying vocals.

Also that whiny YouTube guy is an anus.

I agree with 2 of the things in your post  :biggrin:

I waited until I saw your ranking - and I'm amused at how far apart those 2 songs are  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 09, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 09, 2018, 07:07:29 AM
LOL.

That dude registered here making the same thread full of lawyer-like DEMANDS trying to convince everyone that Dream Theater should have not used the video of a dude that for whatever reason had a beef with him. The thread was rightfully nuked soon after. You almost feel for the dude, it's totally unhealthy to become obsessed to this point with a band.

Do you remember the name of the thread or the name of the poster?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 09, 2018, 02:04:51 PM
Forgot the poster name but I’m pretty sure the thread was deleted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 09, 2018, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2018, 02:04:51 PM
Forgot the poster name but I’m pretty sure the thread was deleted.

I see. What exactly is the story behind that poster? It would be good to know so I can take that into account when watching his other videos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
Quote from: Another_Won on April 09, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on April 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
I don't know if it's right place to bring that matter to the forum but there is a youtube channel that includes videos just to bash James LaBrie in every negative way possible. It's like his/her life depends on it. Kind of funny I guess.

PS: I didn't search for the channel, it was displayed on my youtube home page. And I clicked...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfedtmUsTuqLBU7UEDGppLw/videos

Why would someone spend so much time and effort on just bashing a band?  Rhetorical question, of course but it strikes me as a waste of time.  It would be better spent saying good stuff about a band you like.

Wow, that's like a dedicated DT bashing youtube page.  Whatever, free speech I guess.  But the guy's got some views so the fact people keep watching is enough reason to keep going I imagine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on April 09, 2018, 02:35:42 PM
I agree with a lot of complaints he has about DT, but I can't understand why he dedicates practically his entire time to something he doesn't like and doesn't move on. I mean.. he doesn't like this and that and he bitches about it over and over and he knows it is not going to change a thing. It's like he's stuck in the past and can't accept what the band has been doing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 09, 2018, 03:50:28 PM
Quote from: Herrick on April 09, 2018, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 09, 2018, 02:04:51 PM
Forgot the poster name but I’m pretty sure the thread was deleted.

I see. What exactly is the story behind that poster? It would be good to know so I can take that into account when watching his other videos.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit-balls%20crazy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: perfecthundred on April 12, 2018, 05:23:29 PM
I don't understand how someone who openly is not a fan of The Astonishing based his youtube channel name after the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: chrisbDTM on April 14, 2018, 09:04:51 PM
i actually enjoyed some of the hitler astonishing reaction video that dude has on his channel

"I fantasize about dream theater fronted by Russel Allen" :rollin
deep cut
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 16, 2018, 05:06:48 AM
If Dark Side Of The Moon can have 4 minutes of some bullshit 3 second keyboard loop and be regarded as great, ain't nobody should complain about no Nomac tracks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on April 16, 2018, 05:38:52 AM
(https://truthmovementnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/facepalm2.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 16, 2018, 06:18:08 AM
Was anyone complaining about the nomac tracks?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 16, 2018, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 16, 2018, 06:18:08 AM
Was anyone complaining about the nomac tracks?

People have expressed discontent with them before but I think they're great and were even better live
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on April 16, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
If anything I think the NOMAC tracks were a lost opportunity. They're cool, but really could have been more. Instead of tiny little interludes, I wish they just went full electronic/industrial for an instrumental track or two. Ah well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on April 16, 2018, 11:29:20 AM
As a non TA fan i have to say i liked the Nomac tracks and some more of that action would be welcome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on April 16, 2018, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
If anything I think the NOMAC tracks were a lost opportunity. They're cool, but really could have been more. Instead of tiny little interludes, I wish they just went full electronic/industrial for an instrumental track or two. Ah well.

Definitely. They really missed the ball with them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Count me in as someone who didn't like the NOMAC tracks. They're a cool idea, but they ultimately get lost in the sea of filler for me & they don't really serve much purpose, conceptually or musically.

Also, On The Run is great, fite me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 16, 2018, 05:59:33 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Count me in as someone who didn't like the NOMAC tracks. They're a cool idea, but they ultimately get lost in the sea of filler for me & they don't really serve much purpose, conceptually or musically.


Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on April 16, 2018, 10:48:47 PM
No way.  They totally have a purpose in the concept.  And I like them musically as well.  Live, they're even better.  And now that I've seen it live, I think about their place in the show, the visuals, Mangini revealed behind the kit after one of the nomac blasts... Good stuff.  And as someone said on mp.com, you could feel the nomac tracks rattling your bones, or something like that.  Very much a part of the concept.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2018, 08:33:22 AM
To me, The Astonishing is definitely an "album" experience.  Although there are some standout tracks that might be fun on their own, and although you could definitely make different "abridged versions" of the album, just listening to the entire thing as it unfolds from track to track is a very cool experience.  And, to me, that includes the NOMAC tracks.  On their own, they don't really do much and are hard to relate to because they are a-musical and essentially just noise.  But that fits within the flow of the album.  The problem is that I think most of us rarely have the time to listen through the whole thing and just let it wash over us.  The length and scope of the album just don't lend themselves to that, ironically.  I feel fortunate that I have an opportunity a couple of times a week when I am on my long bike rides to listen to it like that and get the whole experience.  And while I could have created a playlist to skip the NOMAC tracks, I find that keeping them in adds to the experience.  But if you don't have time to do that, or if you just don't really like the album, I can see the NOMAC tracks being pretty pointless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on April 17, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
If anything I think the NOMAC tracks were a lost opportunity. They're cool, but really could have been more. Instead of tiny little interludes, I wish they just went full electronic/industrial for an instrumental track or two. Ah well.

That was my hope when they announced the overall plot of the album and when I saw the track listing. I really hoped there would be one or two songs that would pit JP against JR musically. After all TA had the angle of electronic music vs "natural" music that were fighting against each other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 17, 2018, 08:55:36 AM
Quote from: rumborak on April 17, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
Quote from: Adami on April 16, 2018, 09:40:47 AM
If anything I think the NOMAC tracks were a lost opportunity. They're cool, but really could have been more. Instead of tiny little interludes, I wish they just went full electronic/industrial for an instrumental track or two. Ah well.

That was my hope when they announced the overall plot of the album and when I saw the track listing. I really hoped there would be one or two songs that would pit JP against JR musically. After all TA had the angle of electronic music vs "natural" music that were fighting against each other.

Actually, I think that would've been a great idea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 17, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Also, On The Run is great, fite me.

The loop doesn't even last a whole second. Which means you have to hear the same thing 216 times. I'd rather listen to Herman Li play the pacman sound 216 times

[/fiting]
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 17, 2018, 01:18:35 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 17, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Also, On The Run is great, fite me.

The loop doesn't even last a whole second. Which means you have to hear the same thing 216 times. I'd rather listen to Herman Li play the pacman sound 216 times

[/fiting]

 :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 19, 2018, 03:55:25 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 16, 2018, 05:06:48 AM
If Dark Side Of The Moon can have 4 minutes of some bullshit 3 second keyboard loop and be regarded as great, ain't nobody should complain about no Nomac tracks

Yeah, but DSOTM is great and also doesn't have Nomac tracks.  What's the big mystery? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on April 20, 2018, 02:24:57 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 17, 2018, 12:38:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Also, On The Run is great, fite me.

The loop doesn't even last a whole second. Which means you have to hear the same thing 216 times. I'd rather listen to Herman Li play the pacman sound 216 times

[/fiting]
So anything that maintains a rhythm, a loop, or an atmosphere for more than a certain time is garbage? Zeuhl, post-rock, doom metal/rock, stoner metal/rock, pop, industrial, experimental, well.. any genre actually. Take the one note solo of King Crimson's "Starless", for example. Is that garbage too?  ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 20, 2018, 04:50:59 PM
If your question is whether zeuhl, post-rock, or stoner metal/rock are garbage...I'm confused that you apparently think "yes" is the wrong answer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 20, 2018, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 20, 2018, 04:50:59 PM
If your question is whether zeuhl, post-rock, or stoner metal/rock are garbage...I'm confused that you apparently think "yes" is the wrong answer.

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 13, 2018, 01:49:59 PM
Take away my pain is their worst song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 14, 2018, 01:34:10 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 13, 2018, 01:49:59 PM
Take away my pain is their worst song.

:iagree:

actually, fuck it, bottom 5:
#1. Take Away My Pain
#2. 2 Far
#3. Hollow Years
#4. Anna Lee
#5. Outcry

...i really don't like FII  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 14, 2018, 10:47:52 AM
WTF guys, TAMP is probably their best ballad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on May 14, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Yeah, I don't get it either rumbo. I was going to say something but we've gone over it so many times over the years that it seems pointless.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 14, 2018, 11:11:13 AM
TAMP is good. The Once in a Livetime version or whatever is better. I really love that version so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2018, 11:14:41 AM
TAMP is freaking awesome
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 14, 2018, 11:42:58 AM
I wish Speak to Me was on the album instead of Take Away My Pain
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 14, 2018, 12:23:33 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 14, 2018, 10:47:52 AM
Disappear is probably their best ballad.
Fixed that for ya Rumby!   ;)

TAMP is OK, but definitely towards the bottom of DT's catalog for me. While the message behind the song is heartfelt, which I can appreciate, overall it doesn't do much for me. I prefer the original demo version over the FII version and not because of MP - I had a copy of the first Fix for 96 show long before FII was released, so that's the one I became accustomed to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2018, 12:37:18 PM
Does Trial of Tears count as a ballad? I've seen some people do that. If so that would easily be the #1 DT ballad to me. If not, Space-Dye Vest, Lifting Shadows, Disappear, Vacant, Beneath the Surface... screw it, I think every DT ballad rules.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on May 14, 2018, 12:40:36 PM
:lol On what planet is Trial of Tears a ballad?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 14, 2018, 12:47:57 PM
Quote from: rumborak on May 14, 2018, 12:40:36 PM
:lol On what planet is Trial of Tears a ballad?

Hey, I'm not saying it is, but I've heard the argument. :lol Usually it's because of the 'softness' of the song, from conversations I've had with others; the spacey section, the sorrowful chorus, all that. I can kind of see it, although it's not really one I pick when thinking of proper ballads.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on May 14, 2018, 02:26:03 PM
Burning My Soul is their worst
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on May 14, 2018, 02:33:38 PM
With the exception of Learning To Live by John Myung, James LaBrie is the best lyricist among others. It's a crime he hadn't written more lyrics so far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
Yeah, so we can hear "conscience fading" in like a dozen more songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 14, 2018, 06:16:08 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
Yeah, so we can hear "conscience fading" in like a dozen more songs.

That line appears in two sets of Labrie’s lyrics for Dream Theater: Vacant and Medicate (Awakening). Both happen to be about someone being in a coma so the line is fitting. With that said, I don’t listen to his solo projects, so I don’t know if that line appears in any other songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Scottjf8 on May 14, 2018, 11:18:11 PM
Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2018, 02:26:03 PM
Burning My Soul is their worst

Oh. My. God.

I love BMS. Except the awful live version from wacken a few years ago.

TAMP... Innocence faded... Through her eyes. Lifting shadows. All suck.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on May 15, 2018, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 14, 2018, 11:18:11 PM
Quote from: Elite on May 14, 2018, 02:26:03 PM
Burning My Soul is their worst

Oh. My. God.

I love BMS. Except the awful live version from wacken a few years ago.

TAMP... Innocence faded... Through her eyes. Lifting shadows. All suck.

Innocence Faded is a top 10 DT track for me, Lifting Shadows a top 25 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 15, 2018, 01:02:51 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
Yeah, so we can hear "conscience fading" in like a dozen more songs.

Can't be much worse than reaching the water's edge every single album.

 ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on May 15, 2018, 01:28:20 AM
:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 15, 2018, 08:42:03 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 15, 2018, 01:02:51 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
Yeah, so we can hear "conscience fading" in like a dozen more songs.

Can't be much worse than reaching the water's edge every single album.

 ;D

I could only think of TMOLS, does it appear on other songs?  :huh:

EDIT: Okay, OTBOA has it :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on May 15, 2018, 10:18:12 AM
Here's a controversial opinion...

DT are better live than in studio.

I've gone around and around with friends about this. It's not necessarily my opinion, but it's an opinion that sparks a lot of discussion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2018, 10:27:08 AM
Depends on what you mean by "better."  It just depends on your criteria and what you are looking for.  I think you can make the argument either way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on May 15, 2018, 10:46:43 AM
I've heard the criteria for the "DT is better live" camp. It comes down to this. Musically, the band is able to duplicate what's on the record. As a result, they enjoy the live audio better than the studio audio because there's a distinct sound of the band in a live concert.

I point out that MP used to change/not play certain fills in songs. Mangini will change some things here and there. Rudess changes keyboard leads on pre-Rudess material. LaBrie will sing a line differently and I'm sure JP and JMX change some things up too. I call it artistic liberty. So it's not an exact duplication. I will say that most of what they play is exact and it's spot on.

Enjoying a live experience is better than playing an album in your car or at home on a stereo. Maybe that's why some say DT is a better live band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 15, 2018, 10:47:17 AM
James sounds like a wounded dog badly live so I strongly disagree with them being better live but to each their own.

edit: bosky quoted me so editing it out doesn't do much good, so put me in the pillory, my friends :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2018, 10:49:19 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on May 15, 2018, 10:47:17 AM
James sounds like a wounded dog live so I strongly disagree with them being better live but to each their own.

And that type of comment is uncalled for. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 15, 2018, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 15, 2018, 10:49:19 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on May 15, 2018, 10:47:17 AM
James sounds like a wounded dog live so I strongly disagree with them being better live but to each their own.

And that type of comment is uncalled for.

Is it? It's an opinion. He sounds very bad live. There. Better? Three people agreed with me last night when I said he sounded very bad, so it's not an uncommon opinion. I love James, I love DT. He isn't good live, particularly when he is forced to sing older material. They should drop most of the old stuff for his benefit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 15, 2018, 10:54:06 AM
Opinion is fine, provided it is "constructive," as it says in the forum rules.  Just keep it respectful, as your latest post was more in line with.  Namecalling and offensive comparisons are not respectful or constructive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 15, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Still, it's accurate. Chaos In Motion is painful to listen to, and that was 10 years ago. Maybe this is why... oh wait we can't talk about it yet.  :lol

Seriously, if they actually played less old material, James would fare so much better live. The IW&B tour was a good idea in theory and I'm glad I saw the music played live but it was very hard to listen to James sing most of the night. But, I have long advocated for less metal from DT, mostly because it doesn't do his voice any favors... that kind of ball-crunching high stuff is a young man's game. Rabble rabble, that's my two cents, carry on, etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 15, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on May 15, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Still, it's accurate. Chaos In Motion is painful to listen to, and that was 10 years ago. Maybe this is why... oh wait we can't talk about it yet.  :lol


I don't understand this opinion - and I have heard it before and always think this. I love listening to CIM. I listen when I bike ride or run, so there are no distractions and every time I think, wow, James really sounds good.

And, I seem to choose listening to the live material more than studio. I enjoy both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 15, 2018, 11:45:32 AM
Quote from: Kattoelox on May 15, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Still, it's accurate. Chaos In Motion is painful to listen to, and that was 10 years ago. Maybe this is why... oh wait we can't talk about it yet.  :lol

Seriously, if they actually played less old material, James would fare so much better live. The IW&B tour was a good idea in theory and I'm glad I saw the music played live but it was very hard to listen to James sing most of the night. But, I have long advocated for less metal from DT, mostly because it doesn't do his voice any favors... that kind of ball-crunching high stuff is a young man's game. Rabble rabble, that's my two cents, carry on, etc.

Yup, it was pretty much painful for me as a DT fan to watch James on that tour. Barely hit a note. It was weird because I swear he did far better on the TA and DT12 tours. He pretty much nailed the Awake stuff in 2014 if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 15, 2018, 12:28:13 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 15, 2018, 08:42:03 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 15, 2018, 01:02:51 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
Yeah, so we can hear "conscience fading" in like a dozen more songs.

Can't be much worse than reaching the water's edge every single album.

 ;D

I could only think of TMOLS, does it appear on other songs?  :huh:

EDIT: Okay, OTBOA has it :lol

The Bigger Picture too :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 15, 2018, 12:30:49 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 14, 2018, 01:34:10 AM
Quote from: Scottjf8 on May 13, 2018, 01:49:59 PM
Take away my pain is their worst song.

:iagree:

actually, fuck it, bottom 5:
#1. Take Away My Pain
#2. 2 Far
#3. Hollow Years
#4. Anna Lee
#5. Outcry

...i really don't like FII  :\

I don't know that I could come up with a bottom 5, but I can pick my least favorite on each album:

WDADU:  TOWHtStS
I&W:  Under a Glass Moon
Awake:  The Mirror or Lie
FII:  Hard to pick a least favorite because it's one of my least favorite albums, and I don't listen to it much, but I'll go with You Not Me (although I think You or Me is worse)
SFAM:  Hard to pick a least favorite because just about everything is great, but I'll to with The Spirit Carries On
6DOIT:  The Great Debate
TOT:  Either of the Portnoy songs
8VA:  I Walk Beside You or Never Enough
SC:  Repentance
BC&SL:  The Best of Times
ADTOE:  BMUBMD or This Is the Life
DT12:  It will be one of The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil or Surrender to Reason (simply by process of elimination)
I can't pick one off The Astonishing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on May 15, 2018, 03:36:55 PM
When Dream and Day Unite: Anything besides Ytse Jam
Images & Words: Another Day.
Awake: Voices.
Falling Into Infinity: You Not Me
Scenes from a Memory: Through My Words or Home.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Losing Time/Grand Finale (mostly because of that ridiculous fade out, would be The Great Debate otherwise)
Train of Thought: Honor Thy Father
Octavarium: Probably Never Enough
Systematic Chaos: Repentance
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Probably A Rite of Passage.
A Dramatic Turn of Events: Beneath the Surface
Dream Theater: The Looking Glass (now there's an unpopular opinion)
The Astonishing: Losing Faythe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 15, 2018, 06:36:18 PM
It's difficult for certain albums where I love every song  :lol

When Dream and Day Unite: A Fortune In Lies
Images & Words: Surrounded
Awake: Innocence Faded
Falling Into Infinity: Lines In The Sand
Scenes from a Memory: Through Her Eyes
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: The Glass Prison
Train of Thought: Vacant
Octavarium: Sacrificed Sons
Systematic Chaos: Repentance
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Wither
A Dramatic Turn of Events: Outcry
Dream Theater: The Enemy Inside
The Astonishing: Brother, Can You Hear Me?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 15, 2018, 06:52:42 PM
Eh, why not

WD&DU: The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
I&W: no
Awake: Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
FII: Take Away My Pain
SFAM: One Last Time (not counting interludes)
6DOIT: The Test That Stumped Them All
TOT: Honor Thy Father
Octavarium: I Walk Beside You
SC: Repentance
BC&SL: The Best Of Times (this one was really tough actually)
ADTOE: Outcry
DT12: Along For The Ride
TA: Losing Faythe (not counting interludes) (changed this one because I only just remembered this song existed :lol)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 15, 2018, 08:21:03 PM
It looks like Repentance is the most hated SC song so far :lol Honestly, I like it much more than Prophets of War.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 15, 2018, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 15, 2018, 08:21:03 PM
It looks like Repentance is the most hated SC song so far :lol Honestly, I like it much more than Prophets of War.

My favorite song on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 15, 2018, 09:06:56 PM
Least favorite from each:

Status Seeker (solid tune with some cool things going on)
Under a Glass Moon (great song from an all-time great record)
Lie (great song from their best album)
You Not Me (one of the few DT songs with more bad than good)
The Dance of Eternity (too mathematical and doesn't fit on the album)
The Great Debate (not good enough to support its length)
Honor Thy Father (this one has not aged well for me)
Never Enough (awful lyrics drag it down)
Constant Motion (great riff and guitar solo, icky everything else)
A Rite of Passage (not bad, just kind of bland)
On the Backs of Angels (decent song, but vocal melodies are lacking)
Along for the Ride (enjoyable song)
Losing Faythe (love the end, but the first 2/3 of the song seems too rehashed)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 15, 2018, 09:16:16 PM
Alright I'm down for this:

Status Seeker (This was a tough one actually as I think all of WDADU songs are pretty good and even quality)
Surrounded (Don't really care for the keyboard patches used on this song)
Lie (I'm surprised but I think this song aged the worst, the solo is great though)
Just Let Me Breathe (Really closely tied with New Millennium)
The Spirit Carries On (Never cared for this song, however I'm a bit jaded because I'm also really tired of seeing it live)
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (Cheating a bit here but I think the second disc is overall weak)
Vacant (It's a good break in ToT but not a strong song on it's own)
I Walk Beside You (meh)
Prophets of War (This song has really grown on me but I still feel it's the weakest on SC)
On The Backs of Angels (it's a good song that just didn't click with me as much as the others)
The Bigger Picture (Not a terrible song, just the weakest of the bunch)
Every Song that isn't A New Beginning or Our New World (:D)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
Might as well, right.

WDADU: Status Seeker
I&W: Under A Glass Moon
Awake: Caught In A Web
FII: Burning My Soul
SFAM: Regression (I guess since its the opening song, I paired it with Overture and SDV as one track)
6DOIT: The Great Debate (It's still a good song though)
ToT: Honor Thy Father (Although, I do like the instrumental section)
8vm: The Answer Lies Within (It reminds a lot of My Immortal by Evanescence)
SC: Constant Motion (The instrumental section is amazing though)
BC&SL: A Rite of Passage (Main Riff is great, just not enough to beat the others)
ADTOE: Build Me Up, Break Me Down (It may actually be one of my least favorite songs of thiers)
DT: The Looking Glass
TA: A Life Left Behind (I love this album so this really doesn't mean much)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 16, 2018, 12:00:09 AM
I guess I’ll post my least favorite song per album list.

WDaDU: Status Seeker
IaW: Surrounded
Awake: Innocence Faded
FII: New Millennium
SFaM: Through My Words
SDoIT: The Great Debate
TOT: This Dying Soul
8VM: I Walk Beside You
SC: Prophets of War
BC&SL: A Rite of Passage
ADToE: Build Me Up, Break Me Down
DT12: The Bigger Picture
TA: The Walking Shadow
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 16, 2018, 12:10:50 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
SFAM: Regression (I guess since its the opening song, I paired it with Overture and SDV as one track)
TA: A Life Left Behind (I love this album so this really doesn't mean much)

did you forget you were including intros or do you just really like the nomac tracks  :justjen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 16, 2018, 12:53:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 16, 2018, 12:10:50 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
SFAM: Regression (I guess since its the opening song, I paired it with Overture and SDV as one track)
TA: A Life Left Behind (I love this album so this really doesn't mean much)

did you forget you were including intros or do you just really like the nomac tracks  :justjen

Well then everyone forgot about the NOMAC tracks. Haha
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 16, 2018, 01:01:17 AM
WDADU: The Ones
FII: Take Away My Pain
6 DEGREES: The Great Debate (but I like some parts)
TOT: All the wankery of songs / Honor Thy Father
SC: The Dark Horrible Night, Constant Motion
BLACK CLOUDS: Day after day night after night


Don't really have many other songs that make me hope to never hear them again live (or that I don't specifically love, like TAMP)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on May 16, 2018, 05:04:36 AM
WDaDU: Status Seeker, LFAGA or TOWHTSTS - I never listen to any of them really
IaW: Wait for Sleep - All tracks are great, this one just happens to be the shortest
Awake: The Silent Man
FII: You Not Me
SFaM: If Regression doesn't count, then Through my Words - again due to length
SDoIT: Misunderstood
TOT: Vacant - same story as I&W and SFAM here.
8VM: I Walk Beside You
SC: Repentance
BC&SL: The Best of Times
ADToE: Far From Heaven
DT12: The Looking Glass
TA: Excluding NOMAC tracks, Our New World

Wait for Sleep, The Silent Man, Through my Words and Vacant are all enjoyable tracks. The rest I don't really care for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 16, 2018, 07:40:49 AM
Least favorite list:

WDADU: Status Seeker
I&W: Another Day
Awake: Erotomania
FII: Hollow Years
SFAM: Home
6DOIT: The Glass Prison (I'll never understand why this is so loved by the fanbase...repetitive and way too long)
ToT: Honor Thy Father
8VM: Never Enough
SC: Repentance
BC&SL: A Rite Of Passage (the middle section goes on forever...)
ADToE: Far From Heaven
DT12: Illumination Theory
TA: Act Of Faythe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 16, 2018, 06:28:36 PM
Least Favorites:

WDADU: TOWHTSTS
I&W: Wait For Sleep
Awake: Space Dye Vest
FII: Just Let Me Breathe
SFAM: Regression
6DOIT: Misunderstood
ToT: As I Am
8VM: Never Enough
SC: Prophets of Fail
BC&SL: The Best of Times
ADToE: OTBOA
DT12: Enigma Machine
TA: Brother Can You Hear Me?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on May 16, 2018, 07:24:31 PM

Least Favorites:

WDADU: Status Seeker
I&W: Wait For Sleep
Awake: Innocence Faded
FII: Just Let Me Breathe, Lines in the Sand, New Millenium
SFAM: Spirit Carries On
6DOIT: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (if you consider that one song.  Great sub-songs and some not so great sub-songs)
ToT: Honor Thy Father
8VM: Octavarium (well, only the weak parts like Full Circle.  Otherwise I love the album)
SC: Ministry of Lost Souls (and I love that song...whole album is great)
BC&SL: Wither.
ADToE: Far From Heaven (and again, I love the song...just a great album overall)
DT12: Enemy Inside
TA: 90% of the album

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: James Mypetgiress on May 17, 2018, 07:27:29 AM
Bandwagoning with the least favourites thing:

WDADU - The Killing Hand
I&W - Wait For Sleep
Awake - I love everything on it but Voices is the one I listen to least
FII - New Millennium
SFAM - Through Her Eyes
SDOIT - The 6 Degrees Suite
ToT - Honour thy Father
8VM - I Walk Beside You (Kinda a guilty pleasure but it's not a good DT song IMO)
SC - Prophets of War (Again, I have a soft spot for it, it was the first DT song I ever heard)
BCSL - Rite of Passage
ADToE - Far From Heaven
DT12 - Again, super difficult for me to pick, probably Behind the Veil
TA - The whole thing, I haven't listened to it in like a year
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 17, 2018, 04:25:57 PM
Okay, let's do this. Least favorites on each album:

WDADU - Status Seeker
IAW - Surrounded
AWK - The Silent Man
FII - Just Let Me Breathe
SFAM - Regression (only because I had to pick one)
SDOIT - Losing Time/Grand Finale (if you count disc 2 as separate songs. if not, probably Misunderstood, but I really like it)
TOT - Honor Thy Father (I like it)
OVM - Never Enough
SC - Prophets of War
BC&SL - A Rite of Passage
ADTOE - Far From Heaven
DT - Along for the Ride (I like it)
TA - Act of Faythe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nattmorker on May 17, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
It's difficult to pick my least favorite songs because I love almost every DT song. But if I had to choose, it would be:

WDADU - The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
IAW - Another Day
AWK - Scarred
FII - New Millenium (one of the few DT songs I don't love, but I enjoy it from time to time)
SFAM - Through Her Eyes (although I really like the fretless bass here, I wish he used it more)
SDOIT - None, I absolutely love every second of the album
TOT - None
OVM - The Answer Lies Within
SC - None
BC&SL - A Rite of Passage (I like it)
ADTOE - None
DT - Surrender to Reason
TA - Act Of Faythe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on May 17, 2018, 06:40:12 PM
Hmmm let's see. See if any of this can be controversial.

WDADU - The Killing Hand
IAW - Take the Time
Awake - uhhh I dunno. Love this album. I guess Lie?
FII - Just Let Me Breathe
Scenes - Spirit Carries On
SDOIT - Disappear
ToT - Endless Sacrifice
8VM - Panic Attack
SC - Any song other than Repentance. I dunno. ITPOE?
BC&SL - Count of Tuscany and Shattered Fortress. Both awful with a few cool sections.
ADTOE - This is the Life
DT - Eh, the whole album? I guess Surrender to Reason. It's all pretty bad though.
TA - I honestly can't tell most of these songs apart. It's a fine album but I can't pick out many individual songs off hand.

ALL OF THIS IS MY OPINION.

Good, now we can skip that part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2018, 09:38:08 AM
Why not... anything with a ??? means I love every song and don't have a 'least favorite'

1. WDADU - basically anything that isn't Afterlife. I don't like this album one bit except for that song
2. I&W - ???
3. Awake - Scarred and Voices; everything else is awesome
4. FII - Peruvian Skies
5. SFAM - Beyond This Life
6. SDOIT - ???
7. Train of Thought - Stream of Consciousness (way... too... freaking... long... and boring)
8. Octavarium - ???
9. Systematic Chaos - Repentance
10. BC&SL - A Rite of Passage
11. ADTOE - This Is The Life
12. Dream Theater - basically everything that isn't The Looking Glass
13. The Astonishing - Whispers on the Wind I guess? I dunno. Not really fair to pick a least favorite from this one
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on May 18, 2018, 08:34:51 PM
WDADU - The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
I&W - Metropolis Pt I. Yeah fight me. Not that I dislike it, but when an album is this perfect this one comes across as the one I love the less.
Awake - Scarred. Not that I dislike it too. I love it.
Falling into Infinity - Just let Me Breathe
Metropolis Part II: The Dance of Eternity
SDoIT - Goodnight Kiss. It isn't a bad song though
ToT - As I Am
Octa - Never Enough
SC - The Long Eternal Song
BCSL - A Rite of Passage. Might be my least favorite DT song ever.
ADTOE - Build Me Up, Break Me Down
DT 12 - Behind the Veil
Astonishing - Our New World
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shalev Amir on May 30, 2018, 05:32:46 AM
Of the ones I listened to
I&W: Wait for Sleep
Awake: Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
FII: Just Let Me Breathe
SFaM: Regression
SDoiT: Losing Time/Grand Finale
ToT: Vacant
8VM: I Walk Beside You
SC: Forsaken
BC&SL: A Rite of Passage
Self titled: Illumination Theory
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on June 15, 2018, 11:57:31 PM
Not songs I dislike per say, just the ones I like the least.

I&W: Another Day
Awake: Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
FII: Just Let Me Breathe
SFaM: Through My Words
SDoiT: Goodnight Kiss
ToT: This Dying Soul
8VM: I Walk Beside You
SC: Ministry of Lost Souls
BC&SL: A Rite of Passage
ADTOE: Build Me Up, Break Me Down
Self titled: The Enemy Inside
TA: A New Beginning
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BeardedGentlemanHistorian on June 16, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
WDADU: The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun
IAW: Wait For Sleep
Awake: The Silent Man
FII: Anna Lee
MP2 SFAM: Through My Words
SDOIT: Goodnight Kiss
TOT: This Dying Soul
8VM: I Walk Beside You
SC: Prophets of War
BC&SL: A Rite of Passage
ADTOE: Far From Heaven
DT12: Behind The Veil
TA: The NOMAC tracks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 20, 2018, 10:02:00 AM
man this thread got boring
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 20, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
Wither sucks, A Rite of Passage sucks, Shattered Fortress sucks, Black Clouds just sucks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 20, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Kattoelox on June 20, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
Wither sucks, A Rite of Passage sucks, Shattered Fortress sucks, Black Clouds just sucks.

Definitely not one of their best albums. I like Shattered Fortress, but the other two, I agree. TBOT isn’t too good either, except for the intro and THAT solo, all sections in between... meh, and the lyrics :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 20, 2018, 12:49:57 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 20, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Kattoelox on June 20, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
Wither sucks, A Rite of Passage sucks, Shattered Fortress sucks, Black Clouds just sucks.

Definitely not one of their best albums. I like Shattered Fortress, but the other two, I agree. TBOT isn’t too good either, except for the intro and THAT solo, all sections in between... meh, and the lyrics :huh:

I love TBOT and Count of Tuscany, but yeah, it's absolutely one of my least favorite DT albums. Not really sure what was going on in the studio at that time but wow. Jordan's description of the album going in made me so hyped, maybe that's left a lingering feeling of disappointment in my mind, but 6 months on it was already not aging well for me. Still, some of their best moments are in that album - TBOT solo, the Rush-like beginning of TBOT, the spacey part of The Count... aw yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 20, 2018, 01:02:03 PM
The Rush-like intro and the solo are the best parts on TBOT, and i love them, but the actual song doesn’t work well for me. It feels like they made it longer and longer just to fit more sentimental lyrics by MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 20, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
I went into BC&SL not expecting much, due to the reviews. But wow, it was so... interesting, right from the start! A Nightmare To Remember just crushes, Rite of Passage was really cool with the mixolydian thing with the pop chorus, Wither being a different kind of ballad, TSF being an EPIC finale with awesome callbacks, TBOT getting you right in the feels, TCOT just being amazing and experimental  :heart :heart :heart :heart

Then week later I listened to ADToA for the first time and was bored to tears by the generic prog metal-by-the-numbers, every song being the same (I have a higher opinion of it now! But at the time...)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 20, 2018, 02:08:56 PM
Quote from: Kattoelox on June 20, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
Wither sucks, A Rite of Passage sucks, Shattered Fortress sucks, Black Clouds just sucks.

ok... :lol :rollin :lol  but I'll take those songs over the last two albums any day. :p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 20, 2018, 02:46:59 PM
I didn’t really care for BCSL when it first came out but I’ve teally come to enjoy it. J think the weakest track is TBOT. I don’t get all the gushing for the solo and song in general. It is definitely a nice sentiment to MPs Dad though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 20, 2018, 03:02:22 PM
^ Agreed.  However, the solo is the best part of the song, I think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 20, 2018, 03:04:24 PM
But Squidward... that solo is a universal good. No one is immune to its tasty licks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 20, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
The Best Of Times is a Top 15 DT track for me..definitely Top 20. I think it's all the way around amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 20, 2018, 03:45:26 PM
Nice Tim.  :tup

I'll say a few more things about BC&SL.  Wither is great.  I also like ARoP.  Beautiful agony is probably one of the best DT passages ever.  Although, the cookie monster vocals in ANTR are borderline cringe worthy.  The only part of the album I don't like at all.  TCoT is an awesome closer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on June 20, 2018, 06:33:34 PM
The songs are just too damn bloated on BC&SL except Wither (which is perfect and one of the best DT ballads IMO). This is a common complaint of mine about post-SFAM MP-era DT...too much unnecessary padding to make very long songs for whatever reason. I don't think there's a single song over 10 minutes in this period that I don't feel like goes on too long. I can't say that about any pre-6DOIT or MM-era song.

-Nightmare could lose a solid 6 minutes and be a great song. Too much noodling and repetition after the Beautiful Agony section and the growling part is the dumbest thing this band has ever done.

-A Rite of Passage's solo section is mind-numbingly boring. Just endless key & guitar solos trading off. The main riff and chorus is cool but the entire middle section could be wiped out and you'd be left with a great 5 minute prog-metal song.

-Shattered Fortress is probably my favorite of the 12 Step songs but the intro lasts way too long. The rest of the parts feel like they last an appropriate length so this one doesn't bother me. This is not a suite by the way. It's just 5 songs that share a few themes. I dislike how it's been retconned into being viewed as one coherent epic.

-The Best Of Times. I get that the sentiment of the lyrics is really personal, but I just cannot get over how juvenile they are. Sometimes simpler is better when discussing such heavy topics, but compare that to a song like Disappear, which has simple, beautiful lyrics that also deal with loss and the difference in quality is immense. I hate to be down on MP's lyrics for that song, but I think he could've done better. Also, the song is too fucking long. I could easily lose a few minutes of it.

-Tuscany. Worst concept and lyrics for an epic aside, the music is really cool. The ambient section doesn't really do much for me and could be shortened or made into something a bit more lively, but nothing really feels wasted on this one. I think there's a unnecessary 0:45 silent outro on this one which bugs me because it only serves to make the song longer for absolutely no reason.

In short, this album is probably their worst alongside Octavarium. WDADU and FII always seem to rank lower than this one, but they're light-years ahead in every single aspect (except maybe production in WDADU's case).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 20, 2018, 08:57:50 PM
This thread just got me wanting to listen to Black Clouds. It has been a long while since I last listened to the album. The only song I end up listening to is TCOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 21, 2018, 01:05:50 AM
DTA, I more or less agree with you. I still enjoy Black Clouds by the way, and whenever I am in Tuscany the song is a mandatory listening (I can assure you that they totally and completely nailed the atmosphere on that song), but I agree that the songs could have been constructed better.

That was the job of a producer, an external producer expert on songwriting could have offered a solution on how to work better the second half of A Nightmare to Remember, it's perfect until the Beautiful Agony section, then it just loses the plot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on June 21, 2018, 02:13:45 AM
My controversial opinion on DT: They still make good music.

Every music site I go to everyone is saying they suck and they haven’t made a decent album since Portnoy left and they should stop making music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 21, 2018, 07:15:52 AM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on June 21, 2018, 02:13:45 AM
My controversial opinion on DT: They still make good music.

Every music site I go to everyone is saying they suck and they haven’t made a decent album since Portnoy left and they should stop making music.

Preach!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on June 21, 2018, 07:20:01 AM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on June 21, 2018, 02:13:45 AM
My controversial opinion on DT: They still make good music.

Every music site I go to everyone is saying they suck and they haven’t made a decent album since Portnoy left and they should stop making music.

You should probably find some different music sites to go to then  :lol

I'd take the last three albums with MM over the last couple we got with MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on June 21, 2018, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 21, 2018, 07:15:52 AM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on June 21, 2018, 02:13:45 AM
My controversial opinion on DT: They still make good music.

Every music site I go to everyone is saying they suck and they haven’t made a decent album since Portnoy left and they should stop making music.

Preach!

I'll say GREAT music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 21, 2018, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: DTA on June 20, 2018, 06:33:34 PM
The songs are just too damn bloated on BC&SL except Wither (which is perfect and one of the best DT ballads IMO). This is a common complaint of mine about post-SFAM MP-era DT...too much unnecessary padding to make very long songs for whatever reason. I don't think there's a single song over 10 minutes in this period that I don't feel like goes on too long. I can't say that about any pre-6DOIT or MM-era song.

Agree with your opinion about Wither.  For me, SDOIT was the peak of DT's epicness.  I felt the only unnecessary thing on that album was the ending of Misunderstood.  As far as MM era songs being too long, Illumination Theory comes to mind.  It's not only too long, I could've done without the entire song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on June 21, 2018, 06:34:09 PM
I love Illumination Theory, and most of Black Clouds.  (Even though I do consider Black Clouds one of the weaker albums in their catalogue). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on July 01, 2018, 08:14:16 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 20, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
Definitely not one of their best albums. I like Shattered Fortress, but the other two, I agree.
I don't know how controversial is this: While The Shattered Fortress isn't by any means in my least favorite DT song it might probably be the most disappointing song they've ever released for me. I guess it comes down to expectations: While I did expect some nods to the previous steps I also expected something bigger, newer, in line with the previous songs of the suite. What I felt I got was a clip show of the best moments of the previous songs with James singing woooah wooooah woooooooooah uninspiredly at the end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 01, 2018, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on July 01, 2018, 08:14:16 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 20, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
Definitely not one of their best albums. I like Shattered Fortress, but the other two, I agree.
I don't know how controversial is this: While The Shattered Fortress isn't by any means in my least favorite DT song it might probably be the most disappointing song they've ever released for me. I guess it comes down to expectations: While I did expect some nods to the previous steps I also expected something bigger, newer, in line with the previous songs of the suite. What I felt I got was a clip show of the best moments of the previous songs with James singing woooah wooooah woooooooooah uninspiredly at the end.

This might be controversial, but Black Clouds is, to me, their most disappointing album (not the worst, though).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on July 01, 2018, 11:26:34 PM
I'm sure I've said this many times, but I absolutely love BC&SL. Personally, it's in my top 3 DT albums. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on July 01, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Lyrically BC&SL is garbage, but musically it’s awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Pettor on July 02, 2018, 03:25:08 AM
Yeah BC&SL is a rollercoaster. The highs are so damn high and the lows so low (damn that final part of otherwise brilliant ANTR). However overall I really like it. When those good moments hit it's just fantastic.

I kinda like the "juvenile" lyrics of the album. It's stupidly simple at times but in a fitting way. I easily transport myself to quite dreamlike scenarios when listening to the album which I love. They paint with colorful, varied and big brushes on this album, something only maybe parts of Systematic Chaos have done before. Awake would be the opposite where it's all dark, philosophical and more poetic. If Awake (which I do love) is that indie movie about being alone in a dark room caught by depression BC&SL is that grand adventure movie flawed by a cliché story but where you easily gets drawn to the wonderful scenarios being shown there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Destiny Of Chaos on July 02, 2018, 03:53:56 AM
BC&SL is one of my favorite albums.

ANTR is in my all time top 3 DT songs.

ARoP is great for what it is.

Wither is a nice little breath-catcher.

The Shattered Fortress is criminally underrated because of the cut/paste of the other AA songs, but that's what you want out of a finale.. they did great.

TBoT is also underrated. Awesome from start to stop, especially the slower piano parts.

The Count of Tuscany is a beast of the song. I don't particular care for the lyrics, but if that's my only gripe about the album, then it's a great album! 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 02, 2018, 04:15:02 AM
What I like about The Best of Times is how it starts slow and melanchonic, making you expect a somber ballad especially if you already know what it's about, and then that powerful and uplifting rhytm, with a totally Images-and-word-esque vibe, kicks in. It put a giant smile on my face first time I heard it.

And I know I've already said in the past but listening The Count of Tuscany while in Tuscany is a wonderful experience. Petrucci completely NAILED the atmosphere of the tuscan landscapes!

And Wither is wonderful.

(Also, since I'm at it: A Rite of Passage has a very nice chorus but a copy and paste solo section, and A Nighmare to Remember is flawless until the end of the Beautiful Agony section but then loses the plot. An external producer would have helped them to make the song's second half more focused)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on July 02, 2018, 04:36:48 AM
Here's a controversial one; I only reliably pick up 90's albums when I want to listen to DT. The rest, while good albums, have not shown the same staying power for me. I'll enjoy them if I listen to them, but I rarely actively do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on July 02, 2018, 07:40:07 AM
One of the reasons I love TBOT so much is that even if you remove the lyrics the rest of the music tells a beautiful story on its own. The Rush-like bit after the beginning absolutely nails the 'spiraling back in time' feel and then it kicks right into the happy vibes with the start of the story, and gradually becomes more pensive and sorrowful. By the end if I'm in the right mood I'm a blubbering mess, which is why I don't listen to it much anymore outside of the solo section. Amazing song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Valor on July 18, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
BCASL is the worst DT album and self titled is in the top 5 best
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on July 18, 2018, 02:35:25 PM
SC would like a word with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 18, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2018, 02:35:25 PM
SC would like a word with you.

SC is infinitely better than Black Clouds...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: axeman90210 on July 18, 2018, 03:34:37 PM
Systematic Chaos starts out solid (if unspectacular) for me, but then we get to Repentance and that song just drags a little too long. Prophets of War has some decent riffage, but the lyrics make me :lol Then we get to TMOLS and that song should be prescribed to insomniacs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 18, 2018, 03:43:13 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on July 01, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Lyrically BC&SL is garbage, but musically it’s awesome.

Is that actually controversial? I thought that was a common thought here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 18, 2018, 09:54:48 PM
The entire Mangini era is better than most of the pre-Mangini era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on July 18, 2018, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on July 18, 2018, 09:54:48 PM
The entire Mangini era is better than most of the pre-Mangini era.
Now that's controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on July 18, 2018, 10:08:24 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2018, 03:43:13 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on July 01, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Lyrically BC&SL is garbage, but musically it’s awesome.

Is that actually controversial? I thought that was a common thought here.

I wasn’t implying it was a controversial opinion, it was just a response to someone who said they loved the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 18, 2018, 10:14:32 PM
Quote from: ChuckSteak on July 18, 2018, 10:04:35 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on July 18, 2018, 09:54:48 PM
The entire Mangini era is better than most of the pre-Mangini era.
Now that's controversial.

I actually agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 19, 2018, 03:43:10 AM
I mean, The Astonishing is great, but can it really hold up to the combined force of all the pre-MM albums?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 19, 2018, 04:49:02 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 19, 2018, 03:43:10 AM
I mean, The Astonishing is great, but can it really hold up to the combined force of all the pre-MM albums?

Put shortly, no. Images and Words + Awake + SFAM alone is an awesome beast impossible to slay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 19, 2018, 06:52:53 AM
I said most, not all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 19, 2018, 07:03:18 AM
Yeah, I hold the MM stuff in pretty high regard, but seeing how my top three DT albums are pre-MM, that's my favorite era I guess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 19, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
For context...

Images and Words
Awake
The Astonishing
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
Falling into infinity
Scenes From a Memory
When Dream and Day Unite
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on July 19, 2018, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on July 19, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
For context...

Images and Words
Awake
The Astonishing
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
Falling into infinity
Scenes From a Memory
When Dream and Day Unite
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds and Silver Linings

Interesting.  If you rate all on 1-10 scale then take the average of the Pre-MM vs. MM era, what would it look like?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 19, 2018, 07:59:50 AM
I would put the consistency of ADTOE and DT12 above most and possibly all of the pre-Mangini albums, and would put the out there on a limb coolness of TA right up there with most of the pre-Mangini albums too.  But in terms of just sheer quantity of quality, there's too much awesomeness in the pre-Maingini era.  But call me back in 10 years and ask me again.  :biggrin:

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 19, 2018, 08:19:53 AM
To me, MM era albums > WDADU, FII, TOT, OV, SC and BC&SL. That’s 6 out of 10 albums with MP = most of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on July 19, 2018, 08:35:41 AM
We are 10 albums to 3 in the eras comparison rosters. I'm more than willing to wait for the next 7 albums to give a fair judgement.

So far my personal podium:

1. Images&Words / The Astonishing
2. Scenes from a Memory
3. A Dramatic Turn of Events / DT12

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 19, 2018, 09:05:54 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2018, 03:43:13 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on July 01, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Lyrically BC&SL is garbage, but musically it’s awesome.

Is that actually controversial? I thought that was a common thought here.

It probably is a common thought but most people don't actually say "garbage" when they post.

Quote from: Evai on July 19, 2018, 03:43:10 AM
I mean, The Astonishing is great, but can it really hold up to the combined force of all the pre-MM albums?

No...and no.

Quote from: Indiscipline on July 19, 2018, 08:35:41 AM
We are 10 albums to 3 in the eras comparison rosters. I'm more than willing to wait for the next 7 albums to give a fair judgement.

So far my personal podium:

1. Images&Words / The Astonishing
2. Scenes from a Memory
3. A Dramatic Turn of Events / DT12


No idea what that list means.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 19, 2018, 09:10:42 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 19, 2018, 09:05:54 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 18, 2018, 03:43:13 PM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on July 01, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Lyrically BC&SL is garbage, but musically it’s awesome.

Is that actually controversial? I thought that was a common thought here.

It probably is a common thought but most people don't actually say "garbage" when they post.

Good point, and I missed that before.  But Nicko, it goes without saying that that is crossing the line and breaking forum rules.  You need to watch your tone in voicing your likes/dislikes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on July 19, 2018, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 19, 2018, 09:05:54 AM
Quote from: Indiscipline on July 19, 2018, 08:35:41 AM
We are 10 albums to 3 in the eras comparison rosters. I'm more than willing to wait for the next 7 albums to give a fair judgement.

So far my personal podium:

1. Images&Words / The Astonishing
2. Scenes from a Memory
3. A Dramatic Turn of Events / DT12


No idea what that list means.

Positions 1 and 3 feature ex-aequo albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 19, 2018, 09:31:41 AM
Quote from: AngelBack on July 19, 2018, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on July 19, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
For context...

Images and Words
Awake
The Astonishing
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Dream Theater
Falling into infinity
Scenes From a Memory
When Dream and Day Unite
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Black Clouds and Silver Linings

Interesting.  If you rate all on 1-10 scale then take the average of the Pre-MM vs. MM era, what would it look like?

Pre MM 8.40
MM 8.83
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AngelBack on July 19, 2018, 09:50:29 AM
I came out with a similar difference in averages although a little lower for both groups.  A few higher
"highs" for the pre MM but more lower ratings for pre MM as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 19, 2018, 10:09:20 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 18, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2018, 02:35:25 PM
SC would like a word with you.

SC is infinitely better than Black Clouds...

You spelled "worse" wrong.

As far as the MM albums versus the pre-MM albums (and without digging up whatever my last effort to rank DT's catalog was), I would say that I rank ADToE and DT12 higher than WDaDU, FII, SC and BC&SL but probably not as high as any of the others.  The Astonishing gets a DNF because I haven't been able to get through it enough times to have a fair opinion about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MetropolisWatches on September 16, 2018, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 18, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2018, 02:35:25 PM
SC would like a word with you.

SC is infinitely better than Black Clouds...

- SC has aged well ('Prophets of War' is still lame) and is way better than BC&SL. On paper BC&SL seems 'better' and more like a quintessential DT release, but almost every song falls flat. As far as I'm concerned, 'Count of Tuscany' saved that album.

- The guitar solo on 'Repentance' is one of the best in the entire DT discography.

- 'Surrender to Reason' and 'The Bigger Picture' are criminally underrated. Melodic, progressive, heavy- with no extended jamming or solo sections. They would have been loved if included on older DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MetropolisWatches on September 16, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 21, 2018, 07:15:52 AM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on June 21, 2018, 02:13:45 AM
My controversial opinion on DT: They still make good music.

Every music site I go to everyone is saying they suck and they haven’t made a decent album since Portnoy left and they should stop making music.

Preach!

The last three albums have been fantastic- and overall they blow SC and BC&SL out of the water (BC&SL is likely my least favorite DT release).

I can vividly remember the Systematic Chaos / BC&SL era (2006-2010) where the band was mercilessly mocked online by many detractors and scorned long-time fans. Due to his strong creative influence, there was a mass consensus Portnoy was dragging the band down. People felt DT had gravitated to more self-indulgent, metal oriented music with less of an emphasis on prog and melody. Portnoy then leaves and the band go on to write three strong albums that are more melodic and in touch with their prog roots-- and everyone still complains. Some people will never be satisfied.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on September 16, 2018, 08:51:38 PM
Quote from: MetropolisWatches on September 16, 2018, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 18, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
Quote from: rumborak on July 18, 2018, 02:35:25 PM
SC would like a word with you.

SC is infinitely better than Black Clouds...

- SC has aged well ('Prophets of War' is still lame) and is way better than BC&SL. On paper BC&SL seems 'better' and more like a quintessential DT release, but almost every song falls flat. As far as I'm concerned, 'Count of Tuscany' saved that album.

- The guitar solo on 'Repentance' is one of the best in the entire DT discography.

- 'Surrender to Reason' and 'The Bigger Picture' are criminally underrated. Melodic, progressive, heavy- with no extended jamming or solo sections. They would have been loved if included on older DT albums.

I was luke warm on SC when it first came out but it's moved it's way up to a top 3 album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on September 17, 2018, 03:35:24 PM
I really like Awake... but I really like FII much better! 1 song on it I don't like YNM.

Also, IAW is not in my top 5.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 17, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on September 17, 2018, 03:35:24 PM
Also, IAW is not in my top 5.  :biggrin:

Actually, as great as the album really is, it doesn't appear in my top 10...

And BC&SL is the best album they've done after the one in my username..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 17, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
Not including any of their albums not named When Dream and Day Unite, I agree that BCSL is their best album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 17, 2018, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 17, 2018, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on September 17, 2018, 03:35:24 PM
Also, IAW is not in my top 5.  :biggrin:

Actually, as great as the album really is, it doesn't appear in my top 10...

And BC&SL is the best album they've done after the one in my username..

I know we can all have our opinions and preferences... but you’re just wrong :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on September 18, 2018, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 17, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
Not including any of their albums not named When Dream and Day Unite, I agree that BCSL is their best album.
:rollin The same for me!

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on September 18, 2018, 10:16:16 AM
Ahh, I read that post too quickly and thought I'd finally found people to agree with  :lol  BCSL is the only DT album that grabbed me on the first listen (besides TA). Usually it takes a few listens and then I start getting into it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 18, 2018, 10:59:04 AM
It really grabbed me at first listen as well.  It just didn't last, unfortunately.  I still really love ANTR and TSF, and I like TCOT a fair amount as well.  But as an album, it just isn't a favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 18, 2018, 11:22:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 18, 2018, 10:59:04 AM
It really grabbed me at first listen as well.  It just didn't last, unfortunately.  I still really love ANTR and TSF, and I like TCOT a fair amount as well.  But as an album, it just isn't a favorite.

I'm probably due to revisit BC&SL.  ANtR and ARoP are largely unmemorable.  I love Wither and like TSF (none of the 12SS songs are favorites of mine).  TBoT drags the whole album down, and TCoT is great, although flawed.  Ultimately, when the ballad/"hit single" is the most consistently enjoyable song, the album isn't going to rank very high (but it's better than its predecessor).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on September 18, 2018, 10:26:28 PM
The problem of BC&SL is that the songs are just too long. It is a tiring listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2018, 01:08:57 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 18, 2018, 10:26:28 PM
The problem of BC&SL is that the songs are just too long. It is a tiring listen.

It's the album that needed the most a producer to suggest more cohesive songs. All the songs have moments that I like a lot. As a whole, there's a little something here and there that is amiss.

A Nightmare to Remember is great but loses the plot after the Beautiful Agony section, a producer could have found a way. A Rite of Passage is cool but has the mandatory (for that era) copy and paste solo that derails the song. The Count of Tuscany is fine as it is but a couple of moments here and there could have been trimmed. The songs are there, the bloat and the unnecessary is also there as well unfortunately.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 19, 2018, 06:54:59 AM
The problem is that the songs work well on paper (remember MP’s original description of the album?), but when you listen to them, it’s not what you would expect.

ANTR is waaay too long and some sections just don’t work well at all, like the blastbeat part towards the end. You could just remove the last 5 mins of it and it would be better.

AROP has a cool instrumental section but, like MirrorMask said, it’s an “insert solo section here” situation, and that’s why it sounds disjointed. The rest of the song? Doesn’t work for me.

Wither is good, but they’ve done so many ballads that are much better than this one (Another Day, TSCO, TBP, TITL, etc), that it just isn’t too noteworthy.

TSF is really cool, but it’s basically a remix of all the previous 12SS songs. Really like the JP and JR solos on this one, though.

TBOT could’ve turned much much better if they didn’t make the song longer just to fit more MP lyrics. The Rush-like intro and THAT solo are amazing, but I get bored by everything in between.

TCOT this is the saving grace for the album, and definitely one of their best songs in my book, but I wish they didn’t let MP do as much vocals for it (IIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!  :facepalm: )

I definitely agree that this album could’ve turned out to be much better if it had an external producer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 19, 2018, 07:43:18 AM
I don't.. :lol


But seriously.. Don't see how that piece of work could've been improved by anything at all, but for DT themselves.. I mean, even when I do think the album is excellent, and it does represent DT style like almost no other album -and, particularly, contains a lot of what I most like from DT-, it obviously has its little only "good/mediocre" sections.. But I don't think a producer could've done anything to change them and make them better..

He/she could've say or do something to change them, but that surely would've changed the rest of the song as well, and I don't think that would've been something I like more than what I actually like the album as it is.. The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums, I highly doubt it would have ever worked for DT at that stage of their career (or at the current stage, for that matter)..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2018, 08:02:14 AM
Well, but what were the circumstances of the first four albums?

The debut.... well, it was the debut, young and unexperienced band, just be happy you're even recording an album.
Images and Words... yeah, the triggered drums. Bummer. But the songs were fantastic and the album came out fantastic.
Awake... another great album, can't remember any bad external influence at all.
Falling into Infinity.... the disaster that scarred them for life and made them wov to take matters into their own hands ever since.

Now and just as during Black Clouds, DT are and were an estabilished band with full creative control on their carrer, a producer would never say (or be allowed to say) "Make shorter songs LOL and bring back Desmond Child". a good producer with a musical understanding could have solved the dilemma of what to do with the "Day after day" part (remember Portnoy posting three attempts at how to handle that section?), and maybe could have suggested how to smooth and make more cohesive that section and in turn the whole song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 19, 2018, 08:31:43 AM
Yeah, I agree with what you say about the four first albums, but precisely I&W and Awake -for the success of the former and that lackness of bad external influence in the latter) were the ones that gave them the confidence to keep trusting in external producers (besides the fact that they didn't really have another choice) which carried to the FII thing..

Also, I assume you're all just making an example out of the "Day after day" section, because otherwise it would be kind of silly to want or think a band should've had an external producer just to change 30 seconds of a 75 minutes' album..

If you dislike like this more sections throughout the album, then again, I can't see how a producer could've improved them while not changing other sections which are fine or without modifying some points JP and MP (the only lyricists and actual producers in this album) intended to make, and, in some extent, IMO they accomplished to make..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 19, 2018, 09:09:39 AM
All I can say is, for me, most of the things people say they would like to see changed would not be "improvements" to me, and would make the songs/album worse.  Along those lines, I feel like I need to underscore that I largely like the album.  It's just that, by comparison to all their others, it ranks near the bottom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 19, 2018, 11:22:50 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 19, 2018, 07:43:18 AM
The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums

Huh?

What BC&SL might have been with an outside producer is obviously nothing but speculation, but the notion that having outside producers on the first four albums didn't work is just crazy.

Except for the 37-year old Charlie Dominici, the members of DT were 21 when they recorded WDaDU (July - August 1988) and had no idea what they were doing (even "Old Man" Dominici had relatively little experience), so an outside producer was an absolute necessity.

Not much had changed when I&W was recorded three years later (October - December 1991).  What "didn't work" about having an outside producer?  The triggered snare?  Honestly, would anyone know about that if Portnoy hadn't so vocally and publicly bitched about it after the fact?

Awake was recorded another three years later (May - July 1994).  No triggered snare, so there would seem to be even less basis to say the outside "producer thing didn't work."

That gets us to FII (recorded in June - July 1997).  I'm sure we could go on for pages and pages about why this is generally regarded as a bottom 3 DT album (although some folks don't agree with that), but is there really any principled argument that it was Kevin Shirley's fault?  Shirley pulled "Hell's Kitchen" out of BMS and made it a separate song.  In my book, that's a good thing.  Shirley recommended that Desmond Child get involved with "You or Me."  Petrucci obviously agreed, and Portnoy even admits that he agreed (albeit because, in his opinion, it was a song that wasn't going to be used anyway).  IMO, "You Not Me" is superior to "You or Me," so that's a win for Shirley (and outside production in general).  If you believe Portnoy's statement that FII was "a blatant attempt at radio success" (and I don't think Petrucci has ever contradicted that), I think that's the biggest problem with FII (again, not an outside producer problem).  Portnoy and Petrucci disagree about the extent to which the record label influenced the album, but I think it's difficult to deny that the label issues the band was facing played a far bigger role in the quality of FII than any outside producer.

So, with all of that, you've got two great albums, a debut album with an extremely green band and a poorly funded record company, and one album whose problems can't legitimately be blamed on the presence of an outside producer.

Given where DT is now, an outside producer would play a much different role than the producers played 20-25 years ago.  While I'm not one of those who absolutely advocate for an outside producer, I think it would be interesting to see what they'd come up with with the right outside sounding board.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 19, 2018, 12:09:15 PM
That was spot on!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 19, 2018, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on September 19, 2018, 12:09:15 PM
That was spot on!

Indeed! the material was what it was, it's not that they went it with a completed Scenes from a Memory and they were asked to write only stuff like Cover My Eyes (well, in their defense, they DID get asked to write more easy stuff, but the bulk of the album is anyway what ended up on the record).

And I agree that Kevin Shirley made the right suggestions. It was right to have Burning My Soul as a concise rocker (and let's not forget the unintended good consequence of splitting Hell's Kitchen - the band wrote the ending to tie to Lines in the Sand and it's my favorite part of the song), it was right to streamline a bit Hollow Year, and You Not Me is catchier than You Or Me. Of course everyone is entitled to like more You Or Me, or to dislike You Not Me, but if the role of Desmond Child was to make the song easier and catchier, mission accomplished I'd say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 20, 2018, 03:49:13 PM
All I have the energy to say at this point regarding the new album is, my expectations aren't very high.


Quote from: gzarruk on September 19, 2018, 06:54:59 AM
Wither is good, but they’ve done so many ballads that are much better than this one (Another Day, TSCO, TBP, TITL, etc), that it just isn’t too noteworthy.

I would actually remove Another Day and insert Wither.  Not to say that AD isn't good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 20, 2018, 04:46:46 PM
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 20, 2018, 08:41:50 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 20, 2018, 04:46:46 PM
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..

To me, it seems that the whole FII situation was the straw that soured MP of outside producers. So he likely swore to Self-produce from then on.

I wouldn't mind if the guys decided to bring in another ear for the production side. It'd be way better if DT14 is Self-produced by the entire band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 20, 2018, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on September 20, 2018, 08:41:50 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 20, 2018, 04:46:46 PM
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..

To me, it seems that the whole FII situation was the straw that soured MP of outside producers. So he likely swore to Self-produce from then on.

I wouldn't mind if the guys decided to bring in another ear for the production side. It'd be way better if DT14 is Self-produced by the entire band.

And you're right.. But, as I was saying before, the succes of I&W did its job too, in making them made that decision, as ironic as it might sound.. On one hand, it made them believe that an external producer was needed to make a succesful album, and that's partially why they keep on doing that until FII; on the other hand, they had a lot of internal issues with their producers, especially with David Prater, songs that were never published or postponed for another released (ACoS), etc.. These kind of things, after 10 years, are something you don't want to keep bearing anymore... as long as you can, and so they did..

Btw, all this is not speculation but based on the Lifting Shadows biography..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 21, 2018, 09:30:24 AM
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 21, 2018, 09:57:39 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 21, 2018, 09:30:24 AM
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

FVCK YEAH!!!!  :metal

Always loved the song, always will. I hope to hear it live one day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 21, 2018, 10:11:56 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 21, 2018, 09:30:24 AM
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

Hell yeah it is. Too bad JLBs awesome high "MEEEEE" at the end was buried.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 21, 2018, 12:30:14 PM
I agree :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 21, 2018, 02:18:14 PM
Agreed too.. It doesn't seem like very controversial so far.. :lol


The first verse is pure eargasm.. How you can clearly distinct what every instrument is doing... doing that and making it that tasty is not for eveyone.. And THAT solo..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on September 21, 2018, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 21, 2018, 09:30:24 AM
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

It’s a great song, I can’t disagree
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MetropolisWatches on September 21, 2018, 10:10:38 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on September 19, 2018, 01:08:57 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 18, 2018, 10:26:28 PM
The problem of BC&SL is that the songs are just too long. It is a tiring listen.

It's the album that needed the most a producer to suggest more cohesive songs. All the songs have moments that I like a lot. As a whole, there's a little something here and there that is amiss.

A Nightmare to Remember is great but loses the plot after the Beautiful Agony section, a producer could have found a way. A Rite of Passage is cool but has the mandatory (for that era) copy and paste solo that derails the song. The Count of Tuscany is fine as it is but a couple of moments here and there could have been trimmed. The songs are there, the bloat and the unnecessary is also there as well unfortunately.

Your post sums up my feelings. Due to weak arrangements and bloated sections, every song aside from The Count of Tuscany feels lacking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 22, 2018, 03:49:02 AM
Forsaken is kinda boring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
Alright, one per album cycle:


. The triggered snare on I&W is perfectly fine and nobody worried for a loooong time.

. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.

. The Home-TDOE sequence is keeping SFAM from being their best album. Dump HOME's boring sin noises section and a couple of reduntant choruses, fill the hole with TDOE's most interesting four minutes, make a single song of it and call it Metropolis pt2.

. The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

. ToT material is their best material as far as live shows are concerned.

. Octavarium should have been an EP taylored on the ACOS model. One side live show with the best of the Metallica/Deep Purple/Iron Maiden/Pink Floyd homages, one side with the amazing Octavarium studio song.

. SC is 100% better ten years after its release.

. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

. The split saved the band.

. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

. TA is the only DT album since I&W I wouldn't change a thing on.

. Next album is going to reconcile the fandom's two polarized factions.


I don't mind if I'm catching heat, but I'd like to specify I'm fond of and grateful to every DT member past and present.

EDIT: grammar
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on September 22, 2018, 07:26:00 AM
Quote from: Zook on September 22, 2018, 03:49:02 AM
Forsaken is kinda boring.

Yep.  The main piano lead is great and the guitar solo is killer, but the meat of the song is pretty mediocre.  That chorus is so limp.  It sounds like they tried to write this soaring chorus, but missed the mark.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

Well, I assume that there are bootlegs of LaBrie singing fantastically like he did in the Images and Words tour and then all of a sudden struggling and croaking, in a short timeframe. SOMETHING sudden and brutal must have happened, come on.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as agreeing, but I remember when This Dying Soul came out thinking "ah, so it was not over?"..... the whole song (Glass Prison, I mean) ending with "the door was wide open" seemed a perfect and uplifting closing to the theme.

Anyway, even Portnoy himself is on record saying that he didn't fully realize what he was getting into at the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:59:10 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

Well, I assume that there are bootlegs of LaBrie singing fantastically like he did in the Images and Words tour and then all of a sudden struggling and croaking, in a short timeframe. SOMETHING sudden and brutal must have happened, come on.

I completely agree, and something broke. I just think it was a world tour of insane screams and belting out raspy Awake vocals, not an accident. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 22, 2018, 08:16:59 AM
Lots to chew on there, Alex. Can't respond like I want to right now. but I will..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 08:21:06 AM
Should I take my glasses off? *wink*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 22, 2018, 08:31:20 AM
The I&W tour wasn't vocally immaculate. There are many rough boots from that tour.


But to say the food poisoning incident was fabricated. WOW, that's quite a claim.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 08:47:34 AM
Well, I'm not claiming lies and fabrications. I just think that kind of extreme singing without substantial rest is a more probable (and problematic) cause for damage than extreme throwing up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 22, 2018, 10:15:59 AM
Dear @Indiscipline  -  It's weird that I don't agree with ANY of what you said?.. I mean, what are the chances?.. :lol

About SC I wouldn't say 100%, and wouldn't say after 10 years, but it did grow on me.. Only that it took me only a couple of months to falling in love with it (especially with CM, TDEN, TMoLS and ItPoE's, which I disliked at first listen)..

Also, about ToT songs, unfortunately I can't judge if they're the best live or not, because ironically, being the album I consider to be the best, in the 4 times I've seen them remains the only album they didn't played songs off... :'(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on September 22, 2018, 10:21:25 AM
If it is not the food accident and if it is something like you say "James' vocal habits caused that" his voice had to sound like he did in 92-94 with an extra care and rest for the coming years. But the thing is he has never sounded like that era ever. Something should have happened other than randomly screaming and constant touring.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on September 22, 2018, 10:53:09 AM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 08:47:34 AM
Well, I'm not claiming lies and fabrications. I just think that kind of extreme singing without substantial rest is a more probable (and problematic) cause for damage than extreme throwing up.

Bad shellfish can't melt steel vocal chords  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 22, 2018, 10:15:59 AM
Dear @Indiscipline  -  It's weird that I don't agree with ANY of what you said?.. I mean, what are the chances?.. :lol

Not weird at all, and very welcome. I love different views.

Quote from: SeRoX on September 22, 2018, 10:21:25 AM
If it is not the food accident and if it is something like you say "James' vocal habits caused that" his voice had to sound like he did in 92-94 with an extra care and rest for the coming years. But the thing is he has never sounded like that era ever. Something should have happened other than randomly screaming and constant touring.

Yes, something must have happened. My controversial opinion is that "something" being caused by reckless vocal habits on a heavy schedule rather than food poisoning.

 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 22, 2018, 01:15:05 PM
Quote
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.

Quote
. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.

I agree. The album is one of my least favorites anyway, but I think people make such a big deal about it because Portnoy has whined about it for years.

Quote
. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

Pretty much this.

Quote
. The split saved the band.

You're right on this one too.

Quote
. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

Yea, most people's complaints about him are because he isn't Portnoy/he doesn't play like he does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 01:51:06 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on September 22, 2018, 01:15:05 PM
Quote
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.

Oh, I think it's a wonderful unique song, easily Awake's best track after Scarred and A Mind Beside Itself. What I meant was it has become a totem to exalt or tear down for reasons unhinged from its actual musical merit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 22, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
Well... I do have SDV in my bottom list but exclusively for musical reasons.. But hey, what you're saying could easily be the case for some people, so I kinda see your point..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
I think Space Dye Vest is awesome regardless of it being Kevin's swan song. It's DT's big, somber, majestic piano ballad. What's another piano ballad from DT that comes close? Anna Lee? nah, nice song but not in the same league as SDV. Vacant? too short. Far from Heaven? too late in their carrer to become a classic. Space Dye Vest is the ultimate piano ballad from DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on September 22, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
Two things from me, which, as always, I have no idea if they are controversial or not:

1 - I confess that when it comes to the epics (excluding Octavarium, because I listen the hell out of it) I catch myself listening more to The Count of Tuscany than A Change of Seasons.

2 - I find The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow two of the most amazing things DT's ever done, specially The Walking Shadow. Such an amazing short gem!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on September 22, 2018, 04:07:53 PM
Love this thread. The best of the forum somehow. So many different views.

IWBY is better than SDV, TOT, SC, TA and BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on September 22, 2018, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 22, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
Well... I do have SDV in my bottom list but exclusively for musical reasons.. But hey, what you're saying could easily be the case for some people, so I kinda see your point..

I don't see his point. SDV sucks on its own weak and boring demerits. It has since day one. Either that, or Scarred blows so hard that SDV needs to suck just to stay on the record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: commanderbob on September 22, 2018, 06:38:27 PM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

I can personally confirm that this is a nope, since SDV and PMU are what blew me away 24 years ago, and SDV is indeed still in my top 10 DT. I had no band context whatsoever at the time. In fact, hearing it for the first time is one of the most memorable media experiences that I've ever had.

 :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 22, 2018, 07:17:27 PM
Going to bold my responses in the quote box so I don't have to do 15 quote edits

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
Alright, one per album cycle:


. The triggered snare on I&W is perfectly fine and nobody worried for a loooong time.

Never really thought about it much either way.

. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

I loved the song on first listen. I don't hold any KevMo romanticism. In fact, I couldn't be less interested in him or anything he does. OSI f'n blows. Top 5 song in my book.

. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

That is some serious conspiracy theorizing. I don't know. I really have no reason to doubt the official story. Did Zach cover this episode? I didn't watch his video.

. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.


I mean, I suppose MP could've changed his tune on that time period, but again, I think he's honest about how frustrated he was. JP clearly had no problem with it. Not sure I've ever heard James or JM speak about it.

. The Home-TDOE sequence is keeping SFAM from being their best album. Dump HOME's boring sin noises section and a couple of reduntant choruses, fill the hole with TDOE's most interesting four minutes, make a single song of it and call it Metropolis pt2.

WE are on the same page on Home. I consider it DT's most overrated track. I loved the 2010 live versions where they skipped the intro and sped up the tempo. Leave TDOE alone. It's a perfect display of progressive ass kicking.


. The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

Personally I love This Dying Soul. But I consider TGP one of DT's worst aging songs, and the rest of it is a waste of time.  Although I must say that I totally respect Repentence and what they were trying to do with it. It's not a personal fave by any stretch, but I think it's actually pretty cool for what it is. It's outside of the box. I appreciate that.


. ToT material is their best material as far as live shows are concerned.

Sure, no argument here, although I think As I Am is pretty weak all the way around. There's also something about how the studio album sounds. I never want to listen to it, but have no problem dialing up a live version of any of the songs.

. Octavarium should have been an EP taylored on the ACOS model. One side live show with the best of the Metallica/Deep Purple/Iron Maiden/Pink Floyd homages, one side with the amazing Octavarium studio song.

Interesting...I'd have no issue with that.

. SC is 100% better ten years after its release.

I thought it was pretty damn good when it was released.

. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

TBOT and TCOT are two of my all time favorites. Another good EP idea.

. The split saved the band.

Sure

. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

Not sure what to do with this..

. TA is the only DT album since I&W I wouldn't change a thing on.

I'm glad they made this album.

. Next album is going to reconcile the fandom's two polarized factions.

Yeah, and so is the next election.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on September 22, 2018, 08:13:05 PM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

You can do a lot of damage if you puke violently and often which is what I understand happened.

I know when I get a (real, not a "bad headache") migraine and barf/wretch/heave/spew/etc every 30 minutes I burst blood vessels in my face and it looks like I all-of-a-sudden have freckles or measles.

As others have said, it happened suddenly and wasn't a long-term vocal deterioration, so there must have been some sort of acute event.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 23, 2018, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: PetFish on September 22, 2018, 08:13:05 PM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

You can do a lot of damage if you puke violently and often which is what I understand happened.

I know when I get a (real, not a "bad headache") migraine and barf/wretch/heave/spew/etc every 30 minutes I burst blood vessels in my face and it looks like I all-of-a-sudden have freckles or measles.

As others have said, it happened suddenly and wasn't a long-term vocal deterioration, so there must have been some sort of acute event.

I know, and I'm familiar with the vocal apparatus and its reactions. I'm considering this, and I'm leaning towards viewing the poisoning as a violent catalyst for a situation already on its way to serious damage. I'm still firm in my opinion that James' 92-94 way of singing was ultimately unsustainable, the actual point I wanted to make.

I'm also noticing the particular interest about this specific opinion out of 15 and I'm afraid I might have expressed it in a blunt equivocable way. I am not suggesting any form of lie or foul play. Those who hang out in my Scenes thread know the immense admiration and respect I have for James LaBrie, as well as my genuine concern about the ways and times I felt he was jeopardising his instrument.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on September 23, 2018, 02:59:31 PM
I think there's a major difference between "There was never a food poisoning incident" and "there was a food poisoning incident, but it only sped up his vocal decline, and didn't cause it".

One is probably not true. One is probably true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 23, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
And I think you're right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on September 23, 2018, 11:48:33 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on September 22, 2018, 01:15:05 PM
Quote
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.


SDV works because it is such a contrast to the rest of the album, and to DT's whole discography. Out of that context, however, the song is unremarkable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 24, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. The triggered snare on I&W is perfectly fine and nobody worried for a loooong time.

Well, maybe.  But I think that most people didn't worry because most of their built-in fanbase had spent the last decade or so listening to '80s music, which had all kinds of strange production issues and experiments.  It isn't an ideal sound and never was.  But, yeah, most probably didn't fixate on it too much at the time.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

I'm not so sure about this either.  Yeah, it may have polarized a lot of people after the fact, as headline events of this sort often do.  But there are plenty that absolutely loved or hated it right off the bat independently of any of that.  The fact that it is so "different" for DT lends itself to that.  I know for me, when I picked up the album, I had no idea of any of the drama.  And yet, the song instantly became bottom of the list for me.  Through the years, I have seen enough similar comments from both sides that I know there plenty whose opinions weren't formed or drastically altered by the Moore departure drama.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

Not going to beat this into the ground because I think it has been addressed.  Debating its impact is probably fair enough.  Saying there "was never" any such incident seems a little silly.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.

That's an interesting take, but isn't really accurate.  But I think there is a grain of truth that often gets overlooked.  I can't speak to the "looks" aspect.  But as far as the album itself, I think most band-members not named Portnoy are and always were fairly okay with the direction the songs themselves took.  But with varying degrees, I don't think they were happy with the extent of the outside interference.  Some, like JP, eventually embraced it and tried to work hard within the parameters given.  Mike bit his lip and went along grudgingly.  But I think they were ultimately relatively happy with the final product in terms of the songs, as evidenced by the fact that the album has usually been fairly well represented on tours and most of the songs are pretty well regarded by the band members. 

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. The Home-TDOE sequence is keeping SFAM from being their best album. Dump HOME's boring sin noises section and a couple of reduntant choruses, fill the hole with TDOE's most interesting four minutes, make a single song of it and call it Metropolis pt2.

Okay, mixed reaction to this one.  As to the bolded:  No.  The awesomeness of Six Degrees, from start to finish, is what is keeping SFAM from being their best album.  Otherwise, SFAM is glorious and is a close second for me.  That isn't to say it is without flaws.  It isn't.  But the whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts for me, so any missteps or shortcomings are easily forgivable and can be overlooked.  That said, I agree with you about Home.  It was a top 5 DT song for me for the longest time.  And while I still love it, it has fallen because of that section.  The instrumental section just overstays its welcome a bit, and the sound effects you refer to are so unnecessary as to be a distraction that takes away more than they add. 

TDOE is something different altogether.  After so long, I don't find it to have much relistenability.  That said, it is a great musical interlude for reasons that others have said, and it not only plays a role in the album itself, but is a fun showcase of prog instrumental insanity.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

I get it.  And I disagree.  It did become somewhat of an albatross.  But it produced some really terrific music as well.  And it was so much fun for a few album cycles having fans speculate about the next entry.  My take on the follow-up entries:
-TDS:  The instrumental insanity at the end unfortunately overstayed its welcome and took the song too far off track.  If the song clocked in around 9 minutes or so, it would be one of their best.  The last 2 1/2 minutes were unnecessary and, unfortunately, detracted from what could have been a top DT song.
-TROAE:  Pretty much flawless.  It is pretty "concise," at least for DT, and that is one of its advantages.
-Repentence:  Fantastic idea for a song.  Fantastic execution.  But...it is not something I ever really want to listen to.  From a purely artistic perspective, the second half of the song is nothing less than brilliant.  But it isn't something I enjoy listening to at all after the first few times.
-TSF:  Great closer.  Could have been amazing, but just missed the mark.  Some of the callbacks and reprises are incredibly clever and well done.  Others feel VERY on the nose, like the TROAE bridge reprise.  The reprises are a great idea and were totally necessary, but the sheer number of them and ratio to original content ultimately detracted from the song. 

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. Octavarium should have been an EP taylored on the ACOS model. One side live show with the best of the Metallica/Deep Purple/Iron Maiden/Pink Floyd homages, one side with the amazing Octavarium studio song.

Blasphemy.  Despite having a couple of really weak tracks, the album as a whole is really cool and a fantastic concept.  I would sorely miss at least 4 of those track if I could somehow simultaneously live in both parallel universes where the album was and was not done in its entirety.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. SC is 100% better ten years after its release.

Well, I liked it from the get-go, so...  But I get the sentiment and somewhat agree with it.  It is a very good album, and one that I regularly revisit to this day (albeit with some of the "chaff" removed).  I have said before and will say again that I find it VERY similar to I&W in terms of being VERY inconsistent and simultaneously having some of DT's best material mixed in with some of their worst.  But overall, really good album that I enjoy immensely.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

I'm kind of on board with the general sentiment.  But I would not state it nearly so strongly because I really like a lot of that album.  It has slipped to being close to the bottom of the pile, but still:  90% or so of ANTR, TSF, and TCOT are fantastic (interesting that the three songs I love most on this album all feel like about 80-90% good material, with parts that I really wish were just not there).  And AROP is a perfectly fine, although somewhat "DT-by-numbers" (I hate this phrase with a passion, but I find this to be one of the rare instances of it being perfectly fitting) single.  It'll never make my tops list, but is a fine listen in the context of the album.  But again, I don't disagree with the general sentiment of this post at all.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. The split saved the band.

Quite possibly.  But I think you may have overstated it a tad. Had they not split, I think we would have still gotten some really great music through the years.  And who knows how it ultimately would have turned out?  But I don't think the general feeling most of us have that it would not have been nearly as good is wrong. 

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

You know, I never really had much of a problem with anything he has done.  Yeah, there are times when I catch myself missing Portnoy's drumming.  I just do.  And he had really learned how to record drums well and make sure they were VERY forward in the mix.  I miss that at times too.  But I have never felt like anything related to Mangini, whether it be things inside or outside his control, were in any way inferior.

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. TA is the only DT album since I&W I wouldn't change a thing on.

I can't speak for you, but there are definitely things I would change.  Those mainly related to Act 2 and/or the balance of the story.  I think that if any album would have benefited from outside collaboration, this is it.  And that simply from the standpoint of finding someone who would not have interfered with the overall creative visions, but with sufficient stage pedigree to mold it into something where Act 2 felt a bit more substantial.  And someone who would have pointed out that, despite the vast majority of Act 1 being so well done and so critical to the story, the story would have benefitted from a bit more of making us feel like the war itself was much more real and the threat of the NOMACs was much more menacing.  And someone who would have unabashedly told John and Jordan that that stock crying track was so laughably bad that it should be deleted and subjected to a bon fire.  All that said, I love the album.  I really do.  Just an incredible musical and creative accomplishment. 

Quote from: Indiscipline on September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM
. Next album is going to reconcile the fandom's two polarized factions.

Well...let's just say that that prediction is made almost every album release cycle.  :lol

Quote from: Evai on September 22, 2018, 10:53:09 AM
Bad shellfish can't melt steel vocal chords  :lol

???  I wasn't aware that pork was a shellfish.  A great number of gentiles are understandably confused. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on September 24, 2018, 12:04:25 PM
First off, thanks TAC and Bosk for taking the time to address my whole list, I appreciate that. I notice both your responses about Home/TDOE tend to agree with me about the former's redundant parts while defending the latter's incredible display of prog musicianship. This makes me want to delve deeper into my original point.

I'm in awe of TDOE's technical complexity and it really stands out as a declaration of prog omnipotence. I just can't see what narrative function does it perform inside the concept structure. Assuming, as stated in Mpt1, that "Love is the dance of eternity", is the track depicting love? Which kind of love? Who's making love? We already heard "love" made inside Home. Is it representing Victoria's inner turmoil about chosing the right brother? The song is magnificent, but its ambiguity and positioning makes me zone out of the story and see it like a mere display of artistry.

Now, inserting it (even in its entirety) in place of the noises' segment could accomplish the following:

. Leaving the display of prog awesomeness untouched
. Trimming Home's fat but giving it a kickass instrumental section transforming it into the original Metropolis' twin.
. Giving the song an interludio between the brothers' and Victoria's sung parts: a coherent, connected section successfully conveying turmoil, choice, and even an act of sex. Its wordless nature will keep it somewhat ambigous, but we'll know "where" that's happening and ambiguity will become an asset improving the mystery.
. Giving the album a true central node where a transformative choice informs the following events.

I just wanna add I'm thankful to the posters debating the accident opinion. They not only helped me consider the whole thing more seriously and less superficially, but they also made me realise I needed to word my controversial thoughts more carefully and without - albeit unintentional - potentially offensive overtones.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 24, 2018, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on September 22, 2018, 01:15:05 PM
Quote
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.

Is SDV overrated?  Yes, I think it is.  But that doesn't mean it's a bad song.  It's not a great song, but I think it's a pretty good song, and I like it better than at least three other songs on Awake (IF, Lie and The Mirror).  I also like it a lot better than TLF, which has always sounded to me like an unfinished song.

As far as some of Indiscipline's other points:

I&W:  I recently made the point elsewhere (or earlier in this thread) that no one would have cared or known about the triggered snare had Portnoy not bitched about it so vocally and publicly after the fact.

SFAM:  Home and TDoE is in the running for the best ~20 minutes in DT's catalog.  While I have no problem with the interlude, neither would I be bothered if it were shortened.

12SS:  I didn't like TGP at first but grew to like it.  TDS is largely unmemorable.  TRoAE is a little better than TDS but still isn't great.  Repentance is pretty bad and is a prime reason why SC is the worst album int he catalog.  TSF is fine, but it's too derivative to stand on its own merits.

8VA:  If you forced to shorten the album to a 1980s-length album and gave me only 8VA, TALW, Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons, I would be perfectly happy.

SC:  I still love Constant Motion.  Forsaken is fine.  TDEN has grown on me as a result of having been played live a lot.  Otherwise, the album is no better than it ever was, which is not good.

BC&SL/split:  A slight improvement over SC.  Wither and TCoT are great, and see above re TSF.  I think, however, that it's reasonable to say that something had to give, and Portnoy leaving was probably better for the band than any other possibility.

Mangini:  I've never really understood the criticism.  Nor do I feel worse for the experience for not having whatever it is that Portnoy supposedly brought to live shows that Mangini doesn't bring.  One thing I do dislike about Mangini is that he does drum solos, which I can't remember Portnoy having done at any time in the 2000s.  I am NOT a fan of drum solos.  I'd also be happy to get rid of Jordan's keytar segment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 24, 2018, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Indiscipline on September 24, 2018, 12:04:25 PM
I'm in awe of TDOE's technical complexity and it really stands out as a declaration of prog omnipotence. I just can't see what narrative function does it perform inside the concept structure. Assuming, as stated in Mpt1, that "Love is the dance of eternity", is the track depicting love? Which kind of love? Who's making love? We already heard "love" made inside Home. Is it representing Victoria's inner turmoil about chosing the right brother? The song is magnificent, but its ambiguity and positioning makes me zone out of the story and see it like a mere display of artistry.

Now, inserting it (even in its entirety) in place of the noises' segment could accomplish the following:

. Leaving the display of prog awesomeness untouched
. Trimming Home's fat but giving it a kickass instrumental section transforming it into the original Metropolis' twin.
. Giving the song an interludio between the brothers' and Victoria's sung parts: a coherent, connected section successfully conveying turmoil, choice, and even an act of sex. Its wordless nature will keep it somewhat ambigous, but we'll know "where" that's happening and ambiguity will become an asset improving the mystery.
. Giving the album a true central node where a transformative choice informs the following events.

Wow, that's an interesting idea.. Never thought of it... something like Metropolis pt 1 (or Outcry, or the original Burning My Soul) but with a purpose that actually serves SFAM's story rather than a track that, I agree, it is confusing regarding its meaning... sounds fine..

However, I mentally tried to make it work and I just failed.. The beginning of TDoE sounds so much like the proper beggining of an instrumental, and works so perfectly for this instrumental in particular, that I don't see it flowing well after any section to half of Home at all.. Maybe they could've leave out the start? ok, but then the whole main chord progression and its following sections would sound very off too..

Having said that, I think it's pretty obvious that if they would've gone in that direction the instrumental as we know it would've been very different, especially the beggining of it... but, in that case, I don't know if I would've ever wanted that.. I mean, yeah, is worth mentioning that TDoE is my favorite DT track!.. ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 24, 2018, 01:53:28 PM
I get the idea.  And it isn't a bad one in principle.  But to me, the problem is that Home is just a bit too bloated anyway.  If it is going to be changed, I would change it by just trimming it down a bit.  The album does well having an instrumental break as a transition.  And to me, TDOE does that well.  It doesn't really have a narrative purpose.  It's purpose seems to be to (1) provide the aforementioned instrumental break, and (2) to provide the most concrete musical callbacks to pt. 1.  And because pt. 1 was pretty abstract lyrically and does not directly have anything to do with the story in on SFAM, musical rather than lyrical callbacks were the way to go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 24, 2018, 01:59:09 PM
Yeah, all of that too.. ^^^^
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 24, 2018, 02:00:57 PM
TDOE is perfect as it is :metal

Home, on the other hand... yeah, shortening it, specially the middle section, would've been the right call. I don't dislike the final product, but it's not one of my favorite DT songs, mainly for the things discussed here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 24, 2018, 02:25:43 PM
There's always the radio edit anyways... Though it doesn't have those great solos and that sick riff underneath them..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on September 24, 2018, 02:37:58 PM
 :metal
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 24, 2018, 02:25:43 PM
There's always the radio edit anyways... Though it doesn't have those great solos and that sick riff underneath them..

I love the radio edit and it's the one I always play first to anyone wanting to hear something from DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on September 24, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Did someone say edit?  :yarr

Give me like half an hour
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on September 24, 2018, 04:07:34 PM
Ok I did it but now I'm too uncondifent to post it, sorry  :\

it's 5:10 though


edit: actually fuck it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWrQ9OYHZ30
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on September 24, 2018, 11:27:02 PM
It's way different from the actual radio edit, which is 5:40, but you made some interesting choices.  Good work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
The intro of Octavarium (the song) is one of its best parts...

(along with?... along with JR's solo at the beginning of FC and JP's final solo, and only beaten by SLH's verses and the whole Full Circle section, which is btw the best section of the s... wait a minute)

I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on September 26, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

I agree with that one, actually.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: RMGadelha on September 26, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

I agree with that one, actually.

That's great :tup..

But I know it is controversial here at least.. Read so many comments from implying is the worst section of the song to even mocking it for its lyrics, which I find to be ingenious at least and, musically speaking (the lyrics I mean), more than clever actually..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on September 26, 2018, 10:07:23 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: RMGadelha on September 26, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

I agree with that one, actually.

That's great :tup..

But I know it is controversial here at least.. Read so many comments from implying is the worst section of the song to even mocking it for its lyrics, which I find to be ingenious at least and, musically speaking (the lyrics I mean), more than clever actually..

gabba gabba
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on September 27, 2018, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: RMGadelha on September 26, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

I agree with that one, actually.

That's great :tup..

But I know it is controversial here at least.. Read so many comments from implying is the worst section of the song to even mocking it for its lyrics, which I find to be ingenious at least and, musically speaking (the lyrics I mean), more than clever actually..

Putting together all those references in a coherent way was a work of genius, come on. Something innovative and, I daresay, never done before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 27, 2018, 08:38:48 AM
Not a controversial opinion, but didn’t know where to post this: Just listened to SDOIT in full again and have to say Jordan is definitely the MVP for the album :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 27, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
As is James for The Astonishing (ok that might not be a controversial opinion)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 27, 2018, 10:41:34 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
The intro of Octavarium (the song) is a good time for a bathroom break...

ftfy


Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

Is that really controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: romdrums on September 27, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on September 27, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
As is James for The Astonishing (ok that might not be a controversial opinion)

James did a good deal better with The Astonishing than he did with SFAM in terms of getting into character for a concept album and really selling the story.  James was a passenger on SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on September 27, 2018, 11:17:55 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
I think Space Dye Vest is awesome regardless of it being Kevin's swan song. It's DT's big, somber, majestic piano ballad. What's another piano ballad from DT that comes close? Anna Lee? nah, nice song but not in the same league as SDV. Vacant? too short. Far from Heaven? too late in their carrer to become a classic. Space Dye Vest is the ultimate piano ballad from DT.

Have you listened to Wait For Sleep??

Quote from: RMGadelha on September 26, 2018, 06:46:46 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

I agree with that one, actually.

Full Circle is incredible, but there's something about Someone Like Him that hits me in all the right places. The twelve string, the melodies that return later in the ending solo, James's performance...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 27, 2018, 01:31:32 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on September 27, 2018, 10:41:34 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on September 26, 2018, 06:23:07 PM
I have another one: Full Circle is the best section of Octavarium... the song AND the album..

Is that really controversial?

Judge for yourself:

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 26, 2018, 10:07:23 PM
gabba gabba

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2018, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
I think Space Dye Vest is awesome regardless of it being Kevin's swan song. It's DT's big, somber, majestic piano ballad. What's another piano ballad from DT that comes close? Anna Lee? nah, nice song but not in the same league as SDV. Vacant? too short. Far from Heaven? too late in their carrer to become a classic. Space Dye Vest is the ultimate piano ballad from DT.

Every single one of those songs is better than SDV by a HUGE margin.  And Wait For Sleep is better than them all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on September 27, 2018, 03:57:05 PM
The only 'bad' moment in the entirety of DT's discography is the rap section in Prophets Of War. Sure, ADToE might be bland 'metal-by-numbers', but it's at least passable  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 27, 2018, 04:13:53 PM
Eh, I can do without FFH and BTS for that matter.  WFS is awesome, but I don't really consider it to be a stand alone ballad.  It's more of a prelude or intro to LTL.  SDV never really ranked high in my book until the BTFW version came along.  Love it now.  I don't think any DT ballad is better than SDV by a HUGE margin even if some are better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on September 27, 2018, 05:35:25 PM
It's been eight years, and my current opinion on MP's leaving is that it improved the band's creative output, and that MM has been a compelling drummer so far. At that point in Portnoy's career (Having so many side-projects in mind while the rest of DT just allowed themselves a few contributions on songs or solo albums) leaving was the most sensible thing to do.

However, his commitment to the fans and his live presence are unmatchable, and I still miss him in the band mainly because of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2018, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on September 27, 2018, 04:13:53 PM
Eh, I can do without FFH and BTS for that matter.  WFS is awesome, but I don't really consider it to be a stand alone ballad.  It's more of a prelude or intro to LTL.  SDV never really ranked high in my book until the BTFW version came along.  Love it now.  I don't think any DT ballad is better than SDV by a HUGE margin even if some are better.

Even though the differences were fairly subtle in the grand scheme of things, I really enjoy that live version of SDV, even though the studio version is way down near the bottom of the DT discography for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on September 28, 2018, 01:12:32 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)

Even though i love MM, playing HK with the hi-hats instead of ride cymbal (intro groove) will never make me accept that he nailed it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on September 28, 2018, 07:48:17 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 27, 2018, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on September 22, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
I think Space Dye Vest is awesome regardless of it being Kevin's swan song. It's DT's big, somber, majestic piano ballad. What's another piano ballad from DT that comes close? Anna Lee? nah, nice song but not in the same league as SDV. Vacant? too short. Far from Heaven? too late in their carrer to become a classic. Space Dye Vest is the ultimate piano ballad from DT.

Every single one of those songs is better than SDV by a HUGE margin.  And Wait For Sleep is better than them all.

And Strange Deja Vu is better than every single one of those songs. :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 28, 2018, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)

Under a Glass Moon
Metropolis
Endless Sacrifice
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
And, ironically, The Shattered Fortress
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 28, 2018, 09:56:30 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)
no all of them. That's all I'll say. (technically and musically)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nattmorker on September 28, 2018, 10:08:08 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on September 28, 2018, 09:49:52 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)

Under a Glass Moon
Metropolis
Endless Sacrifice
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
And, ironically, The Shattered Fortress

Yeah, his playing in TSF on BTFW was amazing!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 10:09:51 AM
I dunno.  I hate to use "better" in comparing the two.  They are both off the charts. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 28, 2018, 10:17:50 AM
Technical perfection and precision are measurable. You could compare them in these terms. Not everyone will though. IMHO, better technique always "wins". There you go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 28, 2018, 10:29:06 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on September 28, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
Since this is the thread of controversial opinions, what MP-era song does Mangini drum better than Portnoy? :p

Panic Attack
Take The Time
Scarred
The Dark Eternal Night

And by the time The Images and Word and Beyond Tour hit Asia, Mangini had already nailed Hell's Kitchen. ;)

I don't know about the others, but MM absolutely ruined the best part of TDEN (from 4:50-4:59 fyi), so I wouldn't say he plays it any better than Portnoy..

To me, they're different.. And I don't actually prefer one over the other, at least regarding only the playing aspect..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 10:32:41 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on September 28, 2018, 10:17:50 AM
Technical perfection and precision are measurable. You could compare them in these terms. Not everyone will though. IMHO, better technique always "wins". There you go.

Yes, technical perfection and precision are measurable.  But neither of those necessarily mean that the more perfect technician is a better drummer or played a song "better."  So there you go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on September 28, 2018, 10:34:57 AM
Nah, but I also think Mangini plays better than Portnoy does nowadays  :lol

Fight! Fight!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 28, 2018, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 10:09:51 AM
I dunno.  I hate to use "better" in comparing the two.  They are both off the charts.

This.  I couldn't even tell you how MM plays anything differently than MP.  While I'm sure I have noticed differences when I've seen DT live, nothing has ever been so significant so as to have stuck with me, and I really can't conceive paying so much attention to only one element of the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 28, 2018, 02:20:02 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 27, 2018, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on September 27, 2018, 04:13:53 PM
Eh, I can do without FFH and BTS for that matter.  WFS is awesome, but I don't really consider it to be a stand alone ballad.  It's more of a prelude or intro to LTL.  SDV never really ranked high in my book until the BTFW version came along.  Love it now.  I don't think any DT ballad is better than SDV by a HUGE margin even if some are better.

Even though the differences were fairly subtle in the grand scheme of things, I really enjoy that live version of SDV, even though the studio version is way down near the bottom of the DT discography for me.

Yeah, I suppose the same would apply to most of us regarding Hollow Years studio compared to the L@B version.  My fav being the latter. :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:25:59 PM
I am quite firmly in the minority that feel that that version did little to elevate it.  On the rare occasion that I watch or listen to L@B, I usually skip it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 28, 2018, 02:27:35 PM
 :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
MM playing Scarred better than MP?? Crazy talk.

Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. Now listen to the same section on the Breaking the Fourth Wall.

MM might be playing more in perfect time, and more “album accurate” but other than that MP plays this with so much more dynamic and musicality. I get that a lot of this is personal preference but to me the difference is night and day and I defy anyone to tell me MM plays that better with more excitement than Portnoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. Now listen to the same section on the Astonishing.

???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. Now listen to the same section on the Astonishing.

???

Is there a question there? If you don’t notice a difference I don’t know what to tell ya
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:46:05 PM
I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Hence the:  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on September 28, 2018, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. Now listen to the same section on the Astonishing.

???

Is there a question there? If you don’t notice a difference I don’t know what to tell ya

I think he's eluding to the fact that Scarred isn't on The Astonishing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:53:48 PM
Ah I meant Breaking the Fourth Wall for Mangini’s version of the song. Fail
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 28, 2018, 02:54:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
MM playing Scarred better than MP?? Crazy talk.

Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. Now listen to the same section on the Astonishing.

I don't remember Scarred being on The Astonishing.  :rollin


Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:53:48 PM
Ah I meant Breaking the Third Wall for Mangini’s version of the song. Fail

It's not on the 3rd wall either.   :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:56:36 PM
Sorry guys, my brain isn’t right today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 03:07:53 PM
I thought you were trying to compare Mangini's playing on The Astonishing to Portnoy's playing on Scarred, which seemed odd already, but then you said "the same section," which totally threw me.  Okay, I get where you are coming from.  Well, now that that's sorted out...  :lol

I haven't listened to CiM in ages, and even when it was new, I only listened a few times.  So off the top of my head, I can't really comment on Scarred.  But I do know I love the version on BTFW. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on September 29, 2018, 09:10:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 28, 2018, 02:25:59 PM
I am quite firmly in the minority that feel that that version did little to elevate it.  On the rare occasion that I watch or listen to L@B, I usually skip it.

Even though JP overplays the crap out of the solo, I've come around to liking that live version of Hollow Years quite a bit, but the studio version is still way better.

Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM


Listen to how MP plays the solo section of that song live on Chaos in Motion. 

Listen to Chaos in Motion??  Oh, I'm not falling for that one. :P :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 29, 2018, 02:44:56 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on September 28, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
MM might be playing more in perfect time, and more “album accurate” but other than that MP plays this with so much more dynamic and musicality.

And that accuracy is both mandatory and helped by the fact that they play to a click.. I'm sure if DT would've played to a click in MP's days, he would've nailed it too..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on September 29, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Most of the percieved differences are due to the volume of MM's drums being mixed quieter than MP's. The psychological effect of louder = better reigns supreme.  :metal That's why something like the drum break of 'In The Air Tonight' is so revered, it's nothing special, it's just mixed LOUD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on September 29, 2018, 03:15:29 PM
I don't agree with that.. I don't like MP's drumming because his drums were loud, but because I like it.. In fact, it bothers and distracts me a lot when the drums are high just for the sake of it..

Animals as Leaders and Metallica are good examples, much more because they're so different bands but in both the drums, while being awesome, are unnecessarily very loud in the mix.. The worst thing about loud drums is that the bass becomes almost inaudible.. I know AaL doesn't have bass, but Metallica and similar bands do... I mean, it'd be cool to hear at least one note played by Trujillo in the last couple of albums (or by Myung in the MP era for that matter)..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on September 29, 2018, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: Evai on September 29, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Most of the percieved differences are due to the volume of MM's drums being mixed quieter than MP's. The psychological effect of louder = better reigns supreme.  :metal That's why something like the drum break of 'In The Air Tonight' is so revered, it's nothing special, it's just mixed LOUD

No. The perceived difference is that they play quite differently from each.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on October 01, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
Quote from: Adami on September 29, 2018, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: Evai on September 29, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Most of the percieved differences are due to the volume of MM's drums being mixed quieter than MP's. The psychological effect of louder = better reigns supreme.  :metal That's why something like the drum break of 'In The Air Tonight' is so revered, it's nothing special, it's just mixed LOUD

No. The perceived difference is that they play quite differently from each.

I agree Adami, but I also think part of the perceived difference definitely has something to do with the drum sounds on the MM records vs the MP records, volume included.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on October 01, 2018, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on October 01, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
Quote from: Adami on September 29, 2018, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: Evai on September 29, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Most of the percieved differences are due to the volume of MM's drums being mixed quieter than MP's. The psychological effect of louder = better reigns supreme.  :metal That's why something like the drum break of 'In The Air Tonight' is so revered, it's nothing special, it's just mixed LOUD

No. The perceived difference is that they play quite differently from each.

I agree Adami, but I also think part of the perceived difference definitely has something to do with the drum sounds on the MM records vs the MP records, volume included.

The perceived difference in volume is due to volume. The perceived difference in style and preference is due to a difference in style in preference. I just don't like this narrative of "Well if you don't like MM's drumming, it's cause of the recording/volume and it can't POSSIBLY because you don't like what he's doing."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on October 01, 2018, 10:47:47 AM
Quote from: Adami on October 01, 2018, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on October 01, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
Quote from: Adami on September 29, 2018, 03:24:03 PM
Quote from: Evai on September 29, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Most of the percieved differences are due to the volume of MM's drums being mixed quieter than MP's. The psychological effect of louder = better reigns supreme.  :metal That's why something like the drum break of 'In The Air Tonight' is so revered, it's nothing special, it's just mixed LOUD

No. The perceived difference is that they play quite differently from each.

I agree Adami, but I also think part of the perceived difference definitely has something to do with the drum sounds on the MM records vs the MP records, volume included.

The perceived difference in volume is due to volume. The perceived difference in style and preference is due to a difference in style in preference. I just don't like this narrative of "Well if you don't like MM's drumming, it's cause of the recording/volume and it can't POSSIBLY because you don't like what he's doing."

Oh yea, I totally agree with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucasembarbosa on October 01, 2018, 02:42:17 PM
Not related to the present controversy discussion...

I really enjoy the background vocal harmonies on the latter MP albums, mostly in Forsaken, Repentance ending, Prophets of War, ANtR and the Queen cover on BC&SL. Wish DT would bring back live backing vocals including other members and do more of these harmonies like "In peaceful sedation I lay half awake..." in their new songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Take The Time is redundant on I&W (otherwise a good album concerning the songwriting, not the drumming IMHO, I just never understood why TTT is on I/W, too simplistic)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 06:22:32 AM
I really like TTT, but the low point on IAW, to me, is Surrounded. Don’t know how it was included instead of something like TLF or DLPM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 03, 2018, 07:32:17 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 06:22:32 AM
I really like TTT, but the low point on IAW, to me, is Surrounded. Don’t know how it was included instead of something like TLF or DLPM.

Surrounded and TTT are not my favorite songs, but they are perfect representations of the early DT sound. Another Day is the weak point of I&W imo. I like the song enough, but it sounds like a cheesy 80’s power ballad. TLF would’ve been a way better choice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 03, 2018, 08:02:34 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Take The Time is redundant on I&W (otherwise a good album concerning the songwriting, not the drumming IMHO, I just never understood why TTT is on I/W, too simplistic)

I don't care for the song either, but "redundant" makes no sense in that context.  I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 03, 2018, 08:22:29 AM
There is no low point on I&W, you heretics!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2018, 08:54:58 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 03, 2018, 08:02:34 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Take The Time is redundant on I&W (otherwise a good album concerning the songwriting, not the drumming IMHO, I just never understood why TTT is on I/W, too simplistic)

I don't care for the song either, but "redundant" makes no sense in that context.  I have no idea what you are trying to say.
my choice of words might have been awkward yes, that does happen although my English is a lot better than my German. Anyway, I do think TTT stands out for being slightly "out of place" as it were as compared to the other pieces on I/W IMHO (might have been a good fit on FII and not as vitally important a piece as say Met1 on I/W), because of some things that happen in the piece. (verse groove, keyboard comping patterns in the guitar solo section and some other things). I never liked the piece either, but that again is my opinion and I respect anyone's. (I'm not trying to be mean here. Never.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 03, 2018, 10:17:55 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 06:22:32 AM
I really like TTT, but the low point on IAW, to me, is Surrounded. Don’t know how it was included instead of something like TLF or DLPM.

Wow...I love "Surrounded" (and TTT -- "too simplistic"?!?!).  It's worlds better than either TLF or DLPM (the latter, in particular, is a particularly substandard track for DT and easy to understand why it ended up on the scrap heap.  It was easily the low point of the I&W&B show I saw last year.

As for TLF, when they played it on the Music in Progress tour, I assumed it was an unfinished song that might show up on the next album (Awake).  When it didn't, I forgot about it for a good long time (probably until I got the Making of I&W "bootleg" or WDaDRu).  It still feels like an incomplete song, and I think I&W would have been a lesser album if it had been included instead of "Surrounded."

But hey, opinions!

For me, the low point of I&W is UaGM.  And, while I liked it at the time, I usually also skip "Another Day," but that's mostly because I'm excited to get to TTT, "Surrounded" and "Metropolis."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 12:27:54 PM
It’s funny that we all think one song or the other is the low point of IAW, and none of us agree on which :lol
I think my main problem with Surrounded is that it’s the one that sounds dated the most, the rest hold up just fine.

Btw, IAW is one of those albums where it’s hard for me to pick my top 5 songs. My top 4 are definitely Metropolis, LTL, UAGM and TTT, but I just can’t settle on the 5th. Depending on my mood, it’s PMU or WFS, and sometimes even AD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 03, 2018, 12:32:15 PM
In my opinion, the songs would go:

Great:
-PMU
-Metropolis
-WFS
-LTL

Good:
-UAGM

Okay:
-Surrounded

Don't care for:
-TTT
-AD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 03, 2018, 12:36:39 PM
In my opinion, the songs would go:

Great:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take the Time
Surrounded
Metropolis–Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
Under a Glass Moon
Wait for Sleep
Learning to Live
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 03, 2018, 01:38:54 PM
I&W songs:

Great
Metropolis
WFS/LTL (hard for me to separate WFS as anything other than an intro/prelude to LTL)
TTT

Really good
Surrounded

Good
PMU

Less Good
AD
UAGM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 03, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Controversial opinion: the FII demos aren't good, the final product is infinitely superior, Raise the Knife is not good, You Or Me is inferior to You Not Me, Hell's Kitchen is better on its own, the guest singers make the music better, etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 03, 2018, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 03, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Controversial opinion: the FII demos aren't good, the final product is infinitely superior, Raise the Knife is not good, You Or Me is inferior to You Not Me, Hell's Kitchen is better on its own, the guest singers make the music better, etc.

I agree with everything except the Raise the Knife bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on October 03, 2018, 03:17:08 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 03, 2018, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 03, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Controversial opinion: the FII demos aren't good, the final product is infinitely superior, Raise the Knife is not good, You Or Me is inferior to You Not Me, Hell's Kitchen is better on its own, the guest singers make the music better, etc.

I agree with everything except the Raise the Knife bit.

Yup, but the wrongness of the RTK opinion actually discredits the rest of it somehow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 03, 2018, 03:46:35 PM
RTK is boring as all get out. I just watched it on the Score DVD and these days I wish it wasn't even on it tbh. Would've rather had an actual FII song played.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 03, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 03, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Controversial opinion: the FII demos aren't good, the final product is infinitely superior, Raise the Knife is not good, You Or Me is inferior to You Not Me, Hell's Kitchen is better on its own, the guest singers make the music better, etc.

I generally agree (although I rank FII in the bottom three of DT's albums).

I first heard "Raise the Knife" when I got the Score DVD back in 2006.  I probably only watched/listened to it once or twice because I usually start with the orchestra tracks (and the bonus stuff on disc 2) when I watch Score.  I sought out the Cleaning Out the Closet version not to long ago when I saw a bunch of folks here fawning over it.  I agree that it's pretty boring.

There's a reason why songs like RTK, "To Live Forever" and "Don't Look Past Me" were cast onto the scrap heap.

I definitely agree that You Not Me >>> You or Me.

Not sure what you mean about the guest singers, but the Doug Pinnick part of "Lines in the Sand" might be the worst thing about FII.

I don't think I've ever heard "Burning My Soul" with "Hell's Kitchen" in the middle, but I think HK is just fine on its own (and am not a big fan of BMS), so I likely agree with you on that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 03, 2018, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 03, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Controversial opinion: the FII demos aren't good, the final product is infinitely superior, Raise the Knife is not good, You Or Me is inferior to You Not Me, Hell's Kitchen is better on its own, the guest singers make the music better, etc.

I agree with everything except the Raise the Knife bit.

Same here. I can live without CME, WAYN, STM and TWIUTB, but RTK is better than most songs on the actual FII.

YNM is definitely better than YOM. BMS works better without HK in it and so on.

Doug Pinnick ruined LITS, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: commanderbob on October 03, 2018, 04:55:30 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 03, 2018, 12:32:15 PM
In my opinion, the songs would go:

Great:
-PMU
-Metropolis
-WFS
-LTL

Good:
-UAGM

Okay:
-Surrounded

Don't care for:
-TTT
-AD

Great:
-PMU
-Metropolis
-WFS
-LTL
-UAGM
-Surrounded

Don't care for:
-TTT
-AD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 03, 2018, 05:31:43 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 03, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
Not sure what you mean about the guest singers, but the Doug Pinnick part of "Lines in the Sand" might be the worst thing about FII.

Typo, my fault - singer, not singers. I love that part of LITS, it's one of my favorite moments of the album honestly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 03, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 06:22:32 AM
I really like TTT, but the low point on IAW, to me, is Surrounded. Don’t know how it was included instead of something like TLF or DLPM.

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Take The Time is redundant on I&W (otherwise a good album concerning the songwriting, not the drumming IMHO, I just never understood why TTT is on I/W, too simplistic)

So I am the guy whose favorites in I&W are Surrounded and TTT. :-P

The low point of that album is Learning To Live. That is the one that really sounds dated. Good think they finally got it right with Breaking All Illusions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 04, 2018, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 03, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
The low point of that album is Learning To Live. That is the one that really sounds dated. Good think they finally got it right with Breaking All Illusions.

LOL LTL :lol....and how did they finally get it right with all that great material in between?  Not to mention that BAI should've been the album closer.

The title of the thread is "controversial" not flat out ridiculous.  What you said makes no sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 04, 2018, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 04, 2018, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 03, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
The low point of that album is Learning To Live. That is the one that really sounds dated. Good think they finally got it right with Breaking All Illusions.

LOL LTL :lol....and how did they finally get it right with all that great material in between?  Not to mention that BAI should've been the album closer.

The title of the thread is "controversial" not flat out ridiculous.  What you said makes no sense.

 :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 04, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 04, 2018, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 03, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
The low point of that album is Learning To Live. That is the one that really sounds dated. Good think they finally got it right with Breaking All Illusions.

LOL LTL :lol....and how did they finally get it right with all that great material in between?  Not to mention that BAI should've been the album closer.

The title of the thread is "controversial" not flat out ridiculous.  What you said makes no sense.

Well, he most likely was thinking about how some songs (not all) on Dramatic mirror quite closely, in structure, the songs off Images and Words. Breaking All Illusions is quite clearly inspired by Learing to Live's structure, so we can see it as a 21th century version of LtL. Just like On the Backs of Angels' structure is inspired by Pull Me Under's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 04, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 03, 2018, 12:27:54 PM
It’s funny that we all think one song or the other is the low point of IAW, and none of us agree on which :lol

To me it's even funnier to know that while I think WFS is by far the worst song of I&W, no one seem to be mentioning it and, on the contrary, I know it's actually liked a lot.. The song is in my bottom three DT songs, along with Just Let Me Breathe and New Millenium...

But yeah, I think this fan disagreement happens with every DT album..

Quote from: pg1067 on October 03, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
There's a reason why songs like RTK, "To Live Forever" and "Don't Look Past Me" were cast onto the scrap heap.

Yes, because the label wanted it..

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.

What does that even mean?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 05, 2018, 07:22:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 04, 2018, 10:12:42 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 03, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
The low point of that album is Learning To Live. That is the one that really sounds dated. Good think they finally got it right with Breaking All Illusions.
The title of the thread is "controversial" not flat out ridiculous.  What you said makes no sense.

Show me a post-early 1990s song that has the vibe of that keyboard intro and the song's outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 05, 2018, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.

What does that even mean?

That it dates the song to a very late 80s, beginning of 1990s period? Jeeze.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 05, 2018, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.

What does that even mean?

That it dates the song to a very late 80s, beginning of 1990s period? Jeeze.
So one simple line dates the whole song? Even after they've made sure to change it for all live performances?   ::)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 05, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
I'm saying it just dates it to 30 years ago. And I was referring to the studio version. I don't exactly keep up with every live detail of the band but that doesn't matter anyway, thank you very much, when talking about the version on the album. Not sure why people are getting on my ass about this, I was just saying the guy's opinion wasn't ridiculous.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 05, 2018, 07:42:43 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
I'm saying it just dates it to 30 years ago.
C'mon. The whole album is over 25 years old, so by that reasoning, every song on it is dated. Yet he specifically pinpointed that one song. So the fact that it's as old as it is can't be the reason in and of itself.

If that single line in the lyrics is all that bugs him, then that is a bit much to label the whole song as dated.


Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
And I was referring to the studio version.
And I was simply pointing out a detail you clearly weren't aware of thankyouverymuch.    :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 05, 2018, 07:43:46 PM
The lyrical content just makes me think of that period. The rest of the album doesn't. I dunno. I love it anyway
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 05, 2018, 07:47:53 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 05, 2018, 07:42:43 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
I'm saying it just dates it to 30 years ago.
C'mon. The whole album is over 25 years old, so by that reasoning, every song on it is dated. Yet he specifically pinpointed that one song. So the fact that it's as old as it is can't be the reason in and of itself.

If that single line in the lyrics is all that bugs him, then that is a bit much to label the whole song as dated.

As I explained in a reply that got lost in between the back and forth, no, it is not the lyrics that make me feel the song is dated. It's the music itself. The vibe of the intro and the outro and so many parts really just scream late 1980s / early 1990s to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 08:23:39 PM
My point is this: who cares if it is dated?

Not every song has to be timeless, like it has to sound like it could have been recorded at any time in history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 06, 2018, 04:45:13 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 05, 2018, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.

What does that even mean?

That it dates the song to a very late 80s, beginning of 1990s period? Jeeze.
So one simple line dates the whole song? Even after they've made sure to change it for all live performances?   ::)

Uh? I never noticed this. What does James sing instead?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 06, 2018, 07:51:14 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 06, 2018, 04:45:13 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 05, 2018, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 05, 2018, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 04, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
No need to call that opinion ridiculous. It's controversial, perhaps, but not ridiculous. LTL does sound dated, particularly because of 'the 90s bring new questions' lyric.

Take the Time freaking rules.

What does that even mean?

That it dates the song to a very late 80s, beginning of 1990s period? Jeeze.
So one simple line dates the whole song? Even after they've made sure to change it for all live performances?   ::)

Uh? I never noticed this. What does James sing instead?
"and these days bring new questions[...]
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 06, 2018, 07:52:06 AM
As I said... never noticed it! I guess I was so used to sing in my mind the original lyrics that I never paid attention at how he changed them : D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 06, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 06, 2018, 07:52:06 AM
As I said... never noticed it! I guess I was so used to sing in my mind the original lyrics that I never paid attention at how he changed them : D
yeah, Learning To Live still is a good piece so nevermind,eh?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 06, 2018, 03:07:32 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 05, 2018, 08:23:39 PM
My point is this: who cares if it is dated?

Not every song has to be timeless, like it has to sound like it could have been recorded at any time in history.

I agree with that... well, actually, that would be impossible to do! lol... And I'm of course only speaking for myself, but it does care, if you tend to dislike songs that sound dated... I think is the same reason why some of us don't like very old songs or don't even try to search out music before the 90's or the 2000's...


Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 06, 2018, 07:51:14 AM
"and these days bring new questions[...]

Actually, I checked, and at least in the two latest "official" versions of the song, is a 50-50... In the Happy Holidays version he does sing "and these days", but in the 'Back to Budokan' version he sings the original line..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 07, 2018, 08:41:16 AM
I'd say we're now easily within a time frame where he could sing "the twenties."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 07, 2018, 11:37:31 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 07, 2018, 08:41:16 AM
I'd say we're now easily within a time frame where he could sing "the twenties."

That's... creepy..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucasembarbosa on October 07, 2018, 11:51:50 AM
Overture 2028
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 07, 2018, 12:09:11 PM
Metropolis Part 3: Learning To Live As A Reincarnated Trans Woman In 2028
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 07, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 07, 2018, 12:09:11 PM
Metropolis Part 3: Learning To Live As A Reincarnated Trans Woman In 2028

Scene 4: Did You Just Assume My Gender?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 07, 2018, 05:45:42 PM
Progressive metal? More like progesterone metal  :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 07, 2018, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 07, 2018, 05:45:42 PM
Progressive metal? More like progesterone metal  :loser:

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2018, 11:34:28 AM
OMFG!!  I&W sounds dated because it was written 27 years ago.  It was prog metal ahead of its time (back then), but now....well it's just dated.  :lol :rollin :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 08, 2018, 12:31:40 PM
If Portnoy hadn't left, DT would not exist anymore today. (and we would have missed their two best albums, or probably rather three, given that DT14 will hopefully be the successor to DT12 in that respect)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 09, 2018, 07:20:34 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2018, 11:34:28 AM
OMFG!!  I&W sounds dated because it was written 27 years ago.  It was prog metal ahead of its time (back then), but now....well it's just dated.  :lol :rollin :lol

No. Just 2 songs sound dated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 09, 2018, 07:31:52 AM
I think SFAM is hugely overrated and kind of boring in a lot of places. I also love The Astonishing, and just the other night was called a DT fanboy for defending it against people unfairly knocking it... right after saying there are 4 or 5 DT albums I don't actually like  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 09, 2018, 09:41:50 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 09, 2018, 07:31:52 AM
just the other night was called a DT fanboy for defending it against people unfairly knocking it.

"Unfairly knocking it"?  Was it "unfair" for any reason other than that you love it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 09, 2018, 09:58:57 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 09, 2018, 09:41:50 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 09, 2018, 07:31:52 AM
just the other night was called a DT fanboy for defending it against people unfairly knocking it.

"Unfairly knocking it"?  Was it "unfair" for any reason other than that you love it?

I am looking at the thread of comments now and I am quoting verbatim:

"The Astonishing is trash and just goes to show how sterile and pointless Dream Theater have become. "
"The astonishing is a boring album. The only good album with Mike Mangini on it is their self titled. Everything before that was amazing"
"Nah. Modern DT is trash."

Basically a combination of "DT without MP stinks," "it's boring and like listening to Disney songs," "Modern DT sucks" etc. and I got called a fanboy for saying that although TA is not for everyone it is a well written album and it's something different which is what DT used to do all the time - different stuff. It gets a lot of flack, unfairly, for not being 100% metal or ultraprog. A lot of the criticism is just over that. "This album sucks, because it has ballads and isn't heavy, it's just a gay Disney musical" and all sorts of other stupid crap. Pointless? The whole band is 'trash?' Just because you dislike the album? Sure...

Actual criticism is fair. Closeminded commentary like that is not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2018, 10:46:17 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 09, 2018, 07:20:34 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2018, 11:34:28 AM
OMFG!!  I&W sounds dated because it was written 27 years ago.  It was prog metal ahead of its time (back then), but now....well it's just dated.  :lol :rollin :lol

No. Just 2 songs sound dated.

Most of us really don't care.  They are still great songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 09, 2018, 10:47:20 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 09, 2018, 09:58:57 AM
I am looking at the thread of comments now and I am quoting verbatim:

"The Astonishing is trash and just goes to show how sterile and pointless Dream Theater have become. "
"The astonishing is a boring album. The only good album with Mike Mangini on it is their self titled. Everything before that was amazing"
"Nah. Modern DT is trash."

Basically a combination of "DT without MP stinks," "it's boring and like listening to Disney songs," "Modern DT sucks" etc. and I got called a fanboy for saying that although TA is not for everyone it is a well written album and it's something different which is what DT used to do all the time - different stuff. It gets a lot of flack, unfairly, for not being 100% metal or ultraprog. A lot of the criticism is just over that. "This album sucks, because it has ballads and isn't heavy, it's just a gay Disney musical" and all sorts of other stupid crap. Pointless? The whole band is 'trash?' Just because you dislike the album? Sure...

Actual criticism is fair. Closeminded commentary like that is not.

Well...I don't agree with the "trash" comment, and I haven't described music as "gay" in the last quarter century, but those comments about TA are consistent with how I generally feel about it.  I also don't agree that "modern DT is trash," but that's not really about TA.

You have to accept that TA is polarizing, and in a social media setting, you're going to get a lot of crass commentary and folks who can't articulate their opinions in terms beyond "sucks" and "gay."  That's why I tend to avoid "the comments section" and stick to places like this where folks can disagree with each other respectfully.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 09, 2018, 10:54:48 AM
I do accept it's polarizing. I accepted it back when they first announced a whole concept with characters. One of my favorite artists does that exact same thing over 10 albums. I get it.

But it is unfair criticism when you start calling a band 'trash' or 'gay' or 'awful' etc. because one member is gone, or because they made an album that doesn't click with you (not you specifically, just in general). TA has received a ton of backlash like that from closeminded fools. There's one way to articulate your dislike of an album - eloquently, respectfully, or at least elaborating on what it is that rubs you the wrong way.

But I also don't like getting called a fanboy when I point out said unfair criticism, especially right after I talk about how overrated I think SFAM is, and how much I dislike BC&SL.   :lol It just shows their lack of critical thinking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 09, 2018, 01:20:32 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 09, 2018, 10:54:48 AM
But it is unfair criticism when you start calling a band 'trash' or 'gay' or 'awful' etc. because one member is gone, or because they made an album that doesn't click with you (not you specifically, just in general). TA has received a ton of backlash like that from closeminded fools. There's one way to articulate your dislike of an album - eloquently, respectfully, or at least elaborating on what it is that rubs you the wrong way.

But I also don't like getting called a fanboy when I point out said unfair criticism, especially right after I talk about how overrated I think SFAM is, and how much I dislike BC&SL.   :lol It just shows their lack of critical thinking.

Well...I don't know where all this occurred, but you're describing the internet and social media in general.  If there are a bunch of likeminded folks, they're going to gang up on the person who thinks differently.  I "follow" a Facebook group for a radio station that was on the air in SoCal from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, and some of the others in the group incredibly inarticulate and close-minded.  When I sense that that element is rising to the surface, I tend to walk away and ignore.

I think it's perfectly "fair" to describe an album as "awful" if you don't like it (for whatever reason).  Even "trash" is not, IMO, "unfair."  "Gay" is different (mostly because of the current political climate -- back in the day, lots of folks referred to certain bands (e.g., Poison) as "gay"), and I agree that being called a "fanboy" just because you like something isn't really "fair," but again, that's the internet/social media for you.

Thinking SFAM is overrated certainly isn't going to be a popular opinion (I certainly disagree, but I'm not going to tell you you're wrong because opinions can't be "right" or "wrong").  BC&SL, on the other hand, is pretty commonly regarded as being near the bottom of DT's catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 09, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
Believe me, I'm no stranger to hot takes or unpopular opinions. Better to be honest about what you like and simply enjoy what appeals to the individual. But while I don't think calling something awful is inherently unfair (I think Threshold and Redemption are awful, and that's as succinct as I can sum up my feelings on them), I do think it's ridiculous the amount of hate The Astonishing gets just for being a concept album that isn't super heavy on the metal or prog or because Mike Portnoy isn't involved. Like... a lot of the hate it receives is unfair. This was just in a Facebook post, by the way. I'm not bothered at all by it. Just pointing out how I was called a fanboy for defending it literally minutes after saying I didn't think SFAM was hot shit.  That's all. IDGAF how people actually conduct themselves with respect to an album but don't drag me into it when the logic you use is so black and white and elementary :lol

EDIT: And a lot of people give TA crap for its story, but... SFAM's story is about a love triangle with a girl and two brothers and someone dies and those same people get reincarnated 70 years later. IMO it's not exactly high quality stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 09, 2018, 01:55:40 PM
I think both stories are pretty cool, actually.  You can make any story sound pretty banal and stupid by boiling it down to its lowest denominator.  But both have plenty to offer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 09, 2018, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 09, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
I do think it's ridiculous the amount of hate The Astonishing gets just for being a concept album that isn't super heavy on the metal or prog or because Mike Portnoy isn't involved. Like... a lot of the hate it receives is unfair. This was just in a Facebook post, by the way. I'm not bothered at all by it. Just pointing out how I was called a fanboy for defending it literally minutes after saying I didn't think SFAM was hot shit.  That's all. IDGAF how people actually conduct themselves with respect to an album but don't drag me into it when the logic you use is so black and white and elementary :lol

EDIT: And a lot of people give TA crap for its story, but... SFAM's story is about a love triangle with a girl and two brothers and someone dies and those same people get reincarnated 70 years later. IMO it's not exactly high quality stuff.

Again, my perspective on TA is that I've not been able to get into it -- either musically or lyrically.  I think I've listened to it all the way through three times, but never entirely in the same sitting.  Based on that, I would describe it as fairly uninteresting.  However, I don't feel like I've given the album a "fair" chance, so I've not passed any sort of "final judgment" on it and typically exclude it when ranking DT's albums, etc.

I agree that panning TA because MP wasn't involved is silly.  Panning it for being a concept album while, at the same time, liking SFAM for that reason is inconsistent, but there's nothing wrong with disliking concept albums in general.  It's also not unreasonable to be generally opposed to concept albums but to like SFAM and not like TA (or vice versa) for whatever reason.

As far as the stories, I don't know the TA story well enough, but I do know that it's at least a little derivative of the story in "2112," which is entirely derivative of Ayn Rand's novella Anthem.  I have no problem with the story in SFAM -- indeed, I like it a lot.  However, it's well-known that it's very similar to the story in the film Dead Again.


Quote from: bosk1 on October 09, 2018, 01:55:40 PM
You can make any story sound pretty banal and stupid by boiling it down to its lowest denominator.

Romeo and Juliet:  Two young emo teens marry without parental consent and then commit suicide over a misunderstanding.
The Hunchback of Notre Dame:  A retarded child and his father both fall for mysterious woman; father arranges to have woman killed, son kills father and son commits suicide.
Crime and Punishment:  A broke college dropout kills a man because he thinks that's what "great men" do; he then confesses at the urging of a prostitute.

Etc., etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 10, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
MacBeth: some wtiches troll a noble into becoming a power hungry king, with the situation biting him in the ass.

No, even dumbed down, Macbeth is still awesome, that's the exception to the rule  :biggrin:

The story in SFAM was great, it was an unusual theme for a concept and having an actual twist with previous misdirection in an album is something quite rare. Sure, then you watch Dead Again and well, I'm not saying it's like listening to Stockholm Syndrome after hearing Never Enough, but.... well, not so distant either.

I also like the story in The Astonishing, maybe it's a bit unbalanced between the two acts, but overall it was fun to see it unfold. I had a legitimate shocked moment when Arhys died, I didn't expect it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 10, 2018, 02:39:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 10, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
I also like the story in The Astonishing, maybe it's a bit unbalanced between the two acts, but overall it was fun to see it unfold. I had a legitimate shocked moment when Arhys died, I didn't expect it at all.

Spoilers  :angry:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on October 10, 2018, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 10, 2018, 02:39:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 10, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
I also like the story in The Astonishing, maybe it's a bit unbalanced between the two acts, but overall it was fun to see it unfold. I had a legitimate shocked moment when Arhys died, I didn't expect it at all.

Spoilers  :angry:
:lol
I think it's safe to say that it's too late to have spoilers in TA,  being that it's nearly three years into it. I'm sure you are being fecitious right?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on October 10, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
SFaM - Murder two people in the past and get away with it and then murder one of them again in your next life and get away with that as well.  Murder is easy and consequence-free for all time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 10, 2018, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: Architeuthis on October 10, 2018, 09:58:30 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 10, 2018, 02:39:48 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 10, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
I also like the story in The Astonishing, maybe it's a bit unbalanced between the two acts, but overall it was fun to see it unfold. I had a legitimate shocked moment when Arhys died, I didn't expect it at all.

Spoilers  :angry:
:lol
I think it's safe to say that it's too late to have spoilers in TA,  being that it's nearly three years into it. I'm sure you are being fecitious right?

Yes, since he used the green font color which here means sarcasm :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 10, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
Quote from: PetFish on October 10, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
SFaM - Murder two people in the past and get away with it and then murder one of them again in your next life and get away with that as well.  Murder is easy and consequence-free for all time.

Yeah, unless you're Biff Tannen, hopped in the Delorian but forgot to give the sports almanac to yourself and killed your grandmother instead. :lolpalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 10, 2018, 04:17:15 PM
Quote from: PetFish on October 10, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
Murder is easy and consequence-free for all time.

Sure if you last name is Kennedy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 12, 2018, 11:55:35 PM
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR). If they had separated the track, I highly doubt it'd be held in such high regard, & I certainly wouldn't adore the track as much as I do if it'd been separated. Also, the transition into it is easily my favourite part of the song. :hefdaddy

I do agree that the part after should've been shortened though, I won't deny that.  :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on October 13, 2018, 10:03:39 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

Aka probably the highlight of modern DT. Second only to that one part in The Astonishing (there was an instrumental section that gives me goosebumps... Somewhere quite late in the album, I think?)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on October 13, 2018, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).
If there's ever a thing that they can learn and apply from The Astonishing (And there's a lot of more things to learn from that album) is that they don't need a lot of minutes to make a compelling song. It's a triumph from that album.

Also now that you mention it: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Moaning noises in Home. It's not just a part that unavoidably prevents you from playing that song when your not rock-liking friends pass you the aux cord (Much like White Zombie's 'More Human than Human'): It actually helps the story go forward and sets a tone to the song's narrative.

Still won't put it when they lend me the aux cord though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on October 14, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on October 14, 2018, 09:10:54 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

I notice lots of commentary about how some songs are too long, but I disagree and ANTR especially.  Now I am not a practicing musician so the technical aspects don't apply to my like or dislike.  One of the things that I love about DT is the length of the songs! ANTR is very interesting and enjoyable after the beautiful agony part. And lets talking the growling voice.   That is another thing I loved when I first listened. Of course I don't want to hear it all the time, but it gives the songs texture, surprise and the metal element (without having a song with the awful growling as a main vocal throughout).  I have wondered many times with MP gone could JP growl? Or maybe MM could give it a whirl.....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 14, 2018, 09:35:41 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on October 14, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 13, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee
not in my opinion anyway. He definitely can't do blastbeats. And btw: I know that most people wouldn't call that a death growl. I just didn't know how else to reference it. At least everyone knew which section I meant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on October 14, 2018, 09:40:27 AM
I think we used to call it "tough guy vocals."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on October 14, 2018, 10:23:10 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

Damn, forgot about Cookie Monster vocals. You're right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on October 14, 2018, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: Adami on October 14, 2018, 10:23:10 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

Damn, forgot about Cookie Monster vocals. You're right.

Yes, that's it, Cookie Monster Vocals : I wonder what came through MP's head then...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
One time I had a friend describe MP's vocals at the start of TSF as "strong bad vocals"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
Why is people even complaining yet again about that section of ANtR on a "controversial thread", when is not controversial at all??...

You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs.. And why do I say underrated? well, because I think that if there wasn't so much hatred felt and/or expressed regarding the song's final minutes I feel those parts would be more liked and/or positively rated..

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 12, 2018, 11:55:35 PM
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR).

I agree with this!, although I've never heard/read someone saying that the section should've been a song on its own..

Also, I don't know to which "main riff" are you talking about.. The "Beautiful Agony" section doesn't have what you'd call a "riff"... Maybe you're talking about the vocal melody of the two main verses?.. Because that's the only leitmotif the song has (Basically "A nightmare to remember, I'll never be the same" is, saving the context, the same as "Lying on the table, In this unfamiliar place")..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 14, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on October 14, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 14, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 14, 2018, 08:24:11 PM
Quote from: Adami on October 14, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 14, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU

My whole life is a lie.










But seriously, they're just tough guy shouting vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 08:29:17 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 12, 2018, 11:55:35 PM
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR).

I agree with this!, although I've never heard/read someone saying that the section should've been a song on its own..

Also, I don't know to which "main riff" are you talking about.. The "Beautiful Agony" section doesn't have what you'd call a "riff"... Maybe you're talking about the vocal melody of the two main verses?.. Because that's the only leitmotif the song has (Basically "A nightmare to remember, I'll never be the same" is, saving the context, the same as "Lying on the table, In this unfamiliar place")..

I actually didn't notice that one, though that's actually really cool how it does that.

No, what I was referring to was the riff in the main song (1:43) sounding like the arpeggio in the 2nd verse of Beauiful Agony section (7:19). It might be a co-incidence, but I always thought it was cool how they kinda sound alike.

Also, it might not really be a consensus, but I was reading some old DTF threads (namely this one (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28508)) and I got the impression that it was an opinion that a lot of people had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 14, 2018, 08:53:13 PM
Quote from: Adami on October 14, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: Zook on October 14, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU

My quip is after this part. Its unnecessary
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 08:29:17 PM
I was referring to was the riff in the main song (1:43) sounding like the arpeggio in the 2nd verse of Beauiful Agony section (7:19). It might be a co-incidence, but I always thought it was cool how they kinda sound alike.

Also, it might not really be a consensus, but I was reading some old DTF threads (namely this one (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28508)) and I got the impression that it was an opinion that a lot of people had.

Heard and read.. Now I get where you were coming from in both cases.. :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 14, 2018, 09:37:23 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
One time I had a friend describe MP's vocals at the start of TSF as "strong bad vocals"

I laughed at that. Were any band to incorporate Strong Bad vocals in to their songs, they should rename the Grammy Award after that band, give them all the Grammys that year, even for categories they don't qualify for, and then retire the award and never give out another one again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 14, 2018, 10:47:23 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

THIS! :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 15, 2018, 06:23:18 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

Definitely an improvement!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 15, 2018, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 14, 2018, 10:28:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

I'm glad they didn't do it like this, otherwise the instrumental sections before and after "day after day" -which are some of the best parts of the song- wouldn't exist.. :azn:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on October 17, 2018, 04:07:53 AM
I'd take a hundred 'reoccurring nightmares haunting my dreams' over a single 'I'm so lonely without mommys love!'
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs..

I agree with this.


Quote from: Bertielee on October 14, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee

The question of whether MP can growl is a separate one from the question of whether he is growling on ANTR. Because he was trying not to growl on that song.

There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.

Here is the post (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2352022.aspx). It's worth checking out if you have not seen it before—there are audio clips of the alternate versions for that section!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 17, 2018, 06:58:56 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs..

I agree with this.


Quote from: Bertielee on October 14, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee

The question of whether MP can growl is a separate one from the question of whether he is growling on ANTR. Because he was trying not to growl on that song.

There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.

Here is the post (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2352022.aspx). It's worth checking out if you have not seen it before—there are audio clips of the alternate versions for that section!

Gotta say that the two "cookie monster" examples in that thread at MP's site were utterly awful.  I would have liked to have heard the version with just JLB.  I have a feeling I would have liked that best.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 17, 2018, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 12, 2018, 11:55:35 PM
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR). If they had separated the track, I highly doubt it'd be held in such high regard, & I certainly wouldn't adore the track as much as I do if it'd been separated. Also, the transition into it is easily my favourite part of the song. :hefdaddy

I do agree that the part after should've been shortened though, I won't deny that.  :\

I never knew that was going to be a separate song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2018, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: Herrick on October 17, 2018, 07:13:35 PM
I never knew that was going to be a separate song.
It never was - some fans just liked that section by itself, and they used the stem tracks included with the deluxe box set of BCaSL to create it themselves.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 17, 2018, 09:43:38 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed....

Ugh... it didn't need the "aggression" and it certainly didn't need it at the cost of quality singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 18, 2018, 02:51:24 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.
Which was a bad decision. I don't see how a section that lasts 20, 30 seconds would be "going too far" for the fanbase. How many songs they recorded before that? I don't see the harm in doing some death growls in 20 seconds of a single song. They should have invited someone to do it though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 18, 2018, 03:56:10 AM
There's also the problem of the musical section and the lyrics being so dissonant. I get that you have to complete the storyline by telling that there were no casualties, but the only spot to do so is the (tentatively) heaviest and most extreme section of DT's entire catalog? it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 18, 2018, 04:00:57 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 18, 2018, 03:56:10 AM
it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.

"no one dared to speak of the terrible danger" describes my love-life pretty well tbh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 18, 2018, 04:04:28 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 18, 2018, 04:00:57 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 18, 2018, 03:56:10 AM
it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.

"no one dared to speak of the terrible danger" describes my love-life pretty well tbh

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on October 18, 2018, 04:38:51 AM
Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 18, 2018, 08:23:23 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 18, 2018, 04:38:51 AM
Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?
No
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on October 18, 2018, 08:36:33 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 18, 2018, 04:38:51 AM
Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?

Yeah I'd say it's probably one of their weaker albums lyrically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on October 18, 2018, 08:40:47 AM
I don’t think I agree that bc&sl has the worst lyrics. Dt has had good to terrible lyrics all throughout their catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 18, 2018, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: ChuckSteak on October 18, 2018, 02:51:24 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM
There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.
Which was a bad decision. I don't see how a section that lasts 20, 30 seconds would be "going too far" for the fanbase. How many songs they recorded before that? I don't see the harm in doing some death growls in 20 seconds of a single song. They should have invited someone to do it though.

IIRC Mike wanted Mikael Akerfeldt to do the growls on the song originally, but decided to try himself since he would end up doing them every night on tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 19, 2018, 03:43:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 18, 2018, 08:40:47 AM
I don’t think I agree that bc&sl has the worst lyrics. Dt has had good to terrible lyrics all throughout their catalog.

True. But A Nightmare to Remember and Count of Tuscany are REALLY bad, there's a song about writer's block, and there isn't a redeeming moment on the album where you go "oh yeah, THIS time they nailed it". So I think I agree that BCSL is their worst from a lyrical standpoint.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 19, 2018, 03:50:06 AM
Actually I think Wither has quite good lyrics.

It's also funny how the mellow part of Nightmare has the greatest lyrics of the song. We go from "the uninvited stranger started dancing on his own" to:

Hopelessly drifting
Bathing in beautiful agony
I am endlessly falling
Lost in this wonderful misery

In peaceful sedation I lay half awake
And thought of the panic inside starts to fade

Come on, this is great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on October 19, 2018, 04:18:37 AM
Yeah i actually quite like Wither.
Apart from this song, i find lyrics on this album ranging from mediocre to embarassing to be honest.

TCOT is one of the most interesting things DT have done musically, but lyrically is definitely a low point:

Now let me introduce
My brother
A bitter gentleman - historian
Sucking on his pipe
Distinguished accent
Making me uptight - no accident


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 19, 2018, 04:52:09 AM
Controversial opinion: DT's lyrics took a nosedive around SFAM. There are still flashes of brilliance here & there, but they lost that kind of wonder & mysticism from the first four (arguably three) albums' lyrics. The lyrics since then have always seemed too literal/direct for me.

Granted, I don't hold lyrics to any importance (I only really care about music tbh), but if I did, I'd be sorely missing something from the later DT releases.

DT12 is the biggest exception to that though :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 19, 2018, 05:06:08 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 19, 2018, 04:52:09 AM
Controversial opinion: DT's lyrics took a nosedive around SFAM. There are still flashes of brilliance here & there, but they lost that kind of wonder & mysticism from the first four (arguably three) albums' lyrics. The lyrics since then have always seemed too literal/direct for me.

Granted, I don't hold lyrics to any importance (I only really care about music tbh), but if I did, I'd be sorely missing something from the later DT releases.

DT12 is the biggest exception to that though :metal
Dramatic Turn as well (largely anyway)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 19, 2018, 07:37:39 AM
I have no idea why a couple of you think the lyrics on ANTR and TCOT are somehow "bad."  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nattmorker on October 19, 2018, 08:06:08 AM
I love the lyrics to Wither, they are general enough for me. I've always felt they described the feelings i've had writing my master's and, now, my PHD thesis, It's a mentally tough process!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 19, 2018, 03:04:57 PM
This discussion just made me listen to the entire album for the first time in awhile.  I have to say that while it still ranks near the bottom of the DT discography for me, that is only a testament to how strong the DT discography is.  Despite some flaws, this is a really solid album.  Great music.  Great lyrics.  Excellent (but strange) album concept.  It gets a :tup from me for every aspect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 19, 2018, 03:23:51 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 19, 2018, 07:37:39 AM
I have no idea why a couple of you think the lyrics on ANTR and TCOT are somehow "bad."  :lol
I never said they are bad (I never will and I'm not one to judge that). They represent what the lyricist(s) have gone through at that moment (on BC/SL anyway and some others as well I'm sure) and that's that for me. Nothing more or less. Some people will like certain lyrics and some won't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Willthescout7 on October 20, 2018, 05:45:01 AM
BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 20, 2018, 07:51:32 AM
I agree that the lyrics to Wither and the Beautiful Agony of A Nightmare to Remember are both pretty good, but the rest of the album is a total miss when it comes to lyrics. The Count of Tuscany is such a great song musically, but is one of the few DT songs where the mediocre lyrics really bring it down a few notches for me.  The Shattered Fortress' lyrics, much like the music, seem like both a total rehash of the prior 12-step songs and total cliches. Finally, while the sentiment of The Best of Times is obviously something everyone can get on board with, the actual lyrics aren't very good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 20, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 18, 2018, 08:23:23 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 18, 2018, 04:38:51 AM
Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?
No

This.. First of all because the words "worst" and "DT" don't belong together.. But yeah, I think BC&SL has actually very good lyrics from start to finish..

Quote from: Willthescout7 on October 20, 2018, 05:45:01 AM
BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually".. The best album of a band is always the album you think is the best from that band.. Now, the concept of "general opinion" is something totally different..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Willthescout7 on October 20, 2018, 11:18:55 PM

Quote from: Willthescout7 on October 20, 2018, 05:45:01 AM
BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually".. The best album of a band is always the album you think is the best from that band.. Now, the concept of "general opinion" is something totally different..

[/quote]
I say this because critically it is not their best. I can listen to SFAM and see that it's a tighter album with better lyrics. Critically, I can hear and tell it's flaws, but because of it's personal attachment to me, I don't care. It's like how The Empire Strikes back is structurely the best Star Wars, but my favorite is Revenge of the Sith.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 21, 2018, 09:09:14 AM
Similar case here. I think SDOIT is their best album (so far), but I like SFAM more because it was my first DT album and I have a deeper connection with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 10:24:11 AM
How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?.. ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dream75 on October 21, 2018, 10:44:54 AM
For me BCSL is one of the worst 😑
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Willthescout7 on October 21, 2018, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 10:24:11 AM
How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?.. ???
I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: Willthescout7 on October 21, 2018, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 10:24:11 AM
How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?.. ???
I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.

But who says it's their best?..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Willthescout7 on October 22, 2018, 06:30:42 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: Willthescout7 on October 21, 2018, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 21, 2018, 10:24:11 AM
How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?.. ???
I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.

But who says it's their best?..
You're putting words in my mouth. Again, I never said it was their best, and I never said anybody thinks it's their best (though I am sure someone on this forum thinks so). To me, there is a clear difference between "best" and "favorite". BC&SL is my favorite Dream Theater album, but I will argue that Awake is their best (I know, real original).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 22, 2018, 09:23:34 AM
Quote from: Willthescout7 on October 22, 2018, 06:30:42 AM
You're putting words in my mouth. Again, I never said it was their best, and I never said anybody thinks it's their best (though I am sure someone on this forum thinks so). To me, there is a clear difference between "best" and "favorite". BC&SL is my favorite Dream Theater album, but I will argue that Awake is their best (I know, real original).

:lol I'm not talking about you saying BC&SL is your favorite, I'm talking about you saying that another album is their best (I deduce is SFAM for you) even when you like more another album..

Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 22, 2018, 09:46:54 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 22, 2018, 09:23:34 AM
Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..

I didn't know you were asking me, so didn't answer. Similar to what Willthescout7 says, there's a difference between what I think is their best album and my personal favorite.

To me, SDOIT is their best album, but my connection to SFAM is stronger because it was my first DT album. I think the writing, performing, sound and direction for SDOIT make it the ultimate DT album and they haven't been able to top it yet (again, in my opinion), but SFAM remains my favorite because it was the one that introduced me to prog and DT.

Hope it makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 22, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on October 24, 2018, 07:36:14 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 22, 2018, 09:46:54 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on October 22, 2018, 09:23:34 AM
Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..

I didn't know you were asking me, so didn't answer. Similar to what Willthescout7 says, there's a difference between what I think is their best album and my personal favorite.

To me, SDOIT is their best album, but my connection to SFAM is stronger because it was my first DT album. I think the writing, performing, sound and direction for SDOIT make it the ultimate DT album and they haven't been able to top it yet (again, in my opinion), but SFAM remains my favorite because it was the one that introduced me to prog and DT.

Hope it makes sense.

I guess to each their own.. But no, sorry, for me it doesn't..  :-\

In my case, I feel ToT is their best, precisely because is my favorite, and is my favorite because is the one I love the most, in almost every aspect (writing, performing, concept, general vibe, etc)... I don't think there was a specific album through which I was introduced to them though, so in that we have different points of view already..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on October 25, 2018, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 22, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.

That's interesting, not sure it would be in my top 5, but it would be waaaaay higher than I currently rank it, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 25, 2018, 07:12:32 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 22, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.

I'm with you totally. It's Top 5 for me. Not WDADU Proper per se, but definitely the collection of songs as a whole. My go-to is WDADRu.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 25, 2018, 01:13:01 PM
I wouldn't put it in top 5 at all, but it would probably take over FII and SC.  WDADRU is where it's at so we kind of already have this and if I use this to compare to the rest of the albums in place of WDADU, it's still pretty close to the bottom, but not at the bottom as it is now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on November 03, 2018, 11:49:21 AM
MCO: Breaking All Illusions is in my top 3 overall favorite DT songs and I don't think the boys have or will create a song from this point on that I will love as much. I hope I'm wrong, of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 06, 2018, 11:35:25 AM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on November 03, 2018, 11:49:21 AM
MCO: Breaking All Illusions is in my top 3 overall favorite DT songs and I don't think the boys have or will create a song from this point on that I will love as much. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

Judging by all opinions I've seen/heard so far since BAI came out, I don't think having it in the top 3 would be controversial at all..

Having TDoE in your top 3, like the guy who writes, might be consider as controversial :lol, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, BAI is the most classic/popular DT track of the last 12 years...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 06, 2018, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 06, 2018, 11:35:25 AM
Judging by all opinions I've seen/heard so far since BAI came out, I don't think having it in the top 3 would be controversial at all..

Having TDoE in your top 3, like the guy who writes, might be consider as controversial :lol, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, BAI is the most classic/popular DT track of the last 12 years...

I've seen more than one person express the opinion that BAI is their favorite song of the Mangini era, but "of the last 12 years" takes us back through Systematic Chaos, which potentially raises the "MP versus MM" issue.  Personally, I have BAI at either #1 or #2 for Mangini era songs (the only possible alternative being "Illumination Theory"), and I would extend that to include SC and BC&SL, but I think there are some folks who would rank ITPOE and/or TCOT higher than BAI.  But I agree that having BAI in one's top 3 isn't particularly controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 06, 2018, 12:34:34 PM
Yeah, not controversial at all.  I mean, for me personally, it is among my least favorite songs on ADTOE and DT12 combined (I really find it hard to rank individual songs on TA because it is such a unified work and the songs, individually, are so different from "traditional" DT).  But I know I am WAY in the minority on that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 06, 2018, 02:19:19 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 06, 2018, 12:34:34 PM
Yeah, not controversial at all.  I mean, for me personally, it is among my least favorite songs on ADTOE and DT12 combined (I really find it hard to rank individual songs on TA because it is such a unified work and the songs, individually, are so different from "traditional" DT).  But I know I am WAY in the minority on that one.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on November 07, 2018, 02:36:27 AM
OK, let's see how controversial this turns out to be:

Making a sequel to Octavarium strikes me as a really dumb idea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 07, 2018, 05:45:03 AM
Wait is this album supposed to be a sequel to Octvarium?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 07, 2018, 05:49:57 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on November 07, 2018, 05:45:03 AM
Wait is this album supposed to be a sequel to Octvarium?

It isn’t, it’s a joke because of the 137 nuggetz :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 07, 2018, 06:29:43 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 06, 2018, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 06, 2018, 11:35:25 AM
Judging by all opinions I've seen/heard so far since BAI came out, I don't think having it in the top 3 would be controversial at all..

Having TDoE in your top 3, like the guy who writes, might be consider as controversial :lol, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, BAI is the most classic/popular DT track of the last 12 years...

I've seen more than one person express the opinion that BAI is their favorite song of the Mangini era, but "of the last 12 years" takes us back through Systematic Chaos, which potentially raises the "MP versus MM" issue.  Personally, I have BAI at either #1 or #2 for Mangini era songs (the only possible alternative being "Illumination Theory"), and I would extend that to include SC and BC&SL, but I think there are some folks who would rank ITPOE and/or TCOT higher than BAI.  But I agree that having BAI in one's top 3 isn't particularly controversial.

I said "12 years" to exclude 8V, but yeah, I for instance would also rank -not just a few but several- songs higher than BAI..


(Since we're at it, best songs from 2007-2016 IMO:

The Count of Tuscany
Ravenskill

The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Walking Shadow
Outcry
Three Days
The Path that Divides

In the Presence of Enemies II
The Bigger Picture
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress
Breaking All Illusions)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 07, 2018, 10:18:51 AM
:umno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 07, 2018, 08:48:50 PM
Exactly my point..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 08, 2018, 05:54:29 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.
Unless you live in a part of the world where uneven time signatures are part of folk music (raises hand), in which case it sounds perfectly natural.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 08, 2018, 06:35:35 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 08, 2018, 05:54:29 AM
Unless you live in a part of the world where uneven time signatures are part of folk music (raises hand), in which case it sounds perfectly natural.
Totally! I mean, where I live they are not common, but I love Greek music, and it seems that they use those a lot!
According to your profile, you are Serbian, right? Do they use them a lot there as well?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 08, 2018, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.

Huh?!

I've never heard an odd time signature change that sounded like the artist was "purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD" (or vinyl record).  Does the chorus of "Roundabout" or the middle section of "Tom Sawyer" or the main riff of Pink Floyd's "Money" sound like a skipping CD to you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: madscot on November 08, 2018, 02:44:41 PM
Based on the fact that DT were my fave band from 1992 until 2016 The astonishing made me fall out of love with them, they have some way to go to be my fave band again, this is from someone who loves concept albums and rock music played with an orchestra, TA was the biggest disappointment of my musical life!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 08, 2018, 04:04:23 PM
Here's a controversial question: Has DT arrived at the point in their career where they have to do a "retrospective" of a classic album to draw enough people for a tour?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 08, 2018, 04:08:18 PM
Quote from: rumborak on November 08, 2018, 04:04:23 PM
Here's a controversial question: Has DT arrived at the point in their career where they have to do a "retrospective" of a classic album to draw enough people for a tour?

We're talking about that in the new album thread over the last couple of days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on November 08, 2018, 04:11:54 PM
Oh, ok.

*Heads over*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AikeaGuinea on November 08, 2018, 04:39:40 PM
Awake is a far superior album to Images And Words. The album improved and upgraded everything Images and Words got right. From the production, to the songs, to the jams. It's the prog fans "Prog" album. All members are on top form on this album, and has some of LaBries sickests performances, and not to forget Portnoy, his drumming is so virtuoso and fun! Kevin Moore really shines lyrically in this album; Scarred and Space Dye Vest are among the best DT songs ever written. Voices, Lifting Shadows, 6:00, this album like Images and Words has zero duds in the tracklist. Def a top 3 DT album in my book. Hell, Top 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 07:59:56 PM
I've only got one opinion on DT that people consider "controversial" and I posted it here a long time ago but I wanted to say that I was reading through the last couple of pages out of boredom and saw someone saying Ravenskill was a favorite. I realized I don't know which one is that, I've almost never heard separate songs from The Astonishing, always listened to it in it's entirety. I can tell the singles and the first few songs up until Three Days, I remember Heaven's Cove and The Path That Divides but otherwise all the other song titles don't ring any bells for me, I need to fix that problem heh
Like this long ass section from when Faythe decided to go look for Gabriel until her brother goes to threaten Xander, is the second biggest snooze, I don't know how many songs is that stretch, it feels like 4 songs but it's probably 2 or 3 max.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 08, 2018, 10:32:01 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 07:59:56 PM
I need to fix that problem heh

Yes.. I agree.. :lol

On the contrary, I've listened to the album so many times that I know it just like I know any other DT album..

TA is their best Mangini-era album, and since someone here above said as controversial opinion that he thinks Awake is better than I&W, not only that I agree with him, but I consider TA to be easily better than those two... and better than SFAM too..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 10:52:16 PM
That is not a controversial opinion son, that is a get-slapped-with-a-fly-swatter opinion.
TA is good, it's better than the self titled, FII & WDADU IMO, maybe even better than BS&SL, but that's as far a stretch as it goes.
When TA is good, it's brilliant, but it has huge chunks of lame, spread through out. It's very unbalanced and it fails to accomplish what it sets out to do conceptually. I've said it before but TA needed more than DT's usual 2-years album cycle deal, it had potential to be something really special I think, maybe if more time was spent on the concept and also if it was cut significantly shorter, like 1 CD would have done it just fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 09, 2018, 04:23:44 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 08, 2018, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.

Huh?!

I've never heard an odd time signature change that sounded like the artist was "purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD" (or vinyl record).  Does the chorus of "Roundabout" or the middle section of "Tom Sawyer" or the main riff of Pink Floyd's "Money" sound like a skipping CD to you?

Money has the same time signature throughout, it's not an odd time signature change  :smiley:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 09, 2018, 05:31:25 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 09, 2018, 04:23:44 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 08, 2018, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.

Huh?!

I've never heard an odd time signature change that sounded like the artist was "purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD" (or vinyl record).  Does the chorus of "Roundabout" or the middle section of "Tom Sawyer" or the main riff of Pink Floyd's "Money" sound like a skipping CD to you?

Money has the same time signature throughout, it's not an odd time signature change  :smiley:

The guitar solo section is in 4/4, the rest in 7/8 (or 7/4).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on November 09, 2018, 05:31:50 AM
Um. No it doesn't, and yes it is.

Ninja'd by gzarruk
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 09, 2018, 09:49:13 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.

Ok, so what you're saying is, DT isn't dumb for doing it but everyone else is?  :lol  Oh, and the skipping CD emulation thing makes no sense.  Thanks for playing.
:clap:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2018, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 07:59:56 PM
I've only got one opinion on DT that people consider "controversial" and I posted it here a long time ago but I wanted to say that I was reading through the last couple of pages out of boredom and saw someone saying Ravenskill was a favorite. I realized I don't know which one is that, I've almost never heard separate songs from The Astonishing, always listened to it in it's entirety. I can tell the singles and the first few songs up until Three Days, I remember Heaven's Cove and The Path That Divides but otherwise all the other song titles don't ring any bells for me, I need to fix that problem heh
Like this long ass section from when Faythe decided to go look for Gabriel until her brother goes to threaten Xander, is the second biggest snooze, I don't know how many songs is that stretch, it feels like 4 songs but it's probably 2 or 3 max.

That is a stretch there for like 3 or 4 songs that start out all slow.  Like Ravenskill does as well, but then gets much heavier and interesting.  I feel that's a legit flaw of TA, it comes off as a lot of really slow soft music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 09, 2018, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 10:52:16 PM
That is not a controversial opinion son, that is a get-slapped-with-a-fly-swatter opinion.
TA is good, it's better than the self titled, FII & WDADU IMO, maybe even better than BS&SL, but that's as far a stretch as it goes.
When TA is good, it's brilliant, but it has huge chunks of lame, spread through out. It's very unbalanced and it fails to accomplish what it sets out to do conceptually. I've said it before but TA needed more than DT's usual 2-years album cycle deal, it had potential to be something really special I think, maybe if more time was spent on the concept and also if it was cut significantly shorter, like 1 CD would have done it just fine.

I didn't get the "fly-whatever" part, but I don't care.. It's my opinion.. And if you don't like it, good for you.. But I think you just proved my opinion is controversial, otherwise you wouldn't have reacted like it was the end of the world... son.. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 09, 2018, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2018, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 07:59:56 PM
I've only got one opinion on DT that people consider "controversial" and I posted it here a long time ago but I wanted to say that I was reading through the last couple of pages out of boredom and saw someone saying Ravenskill was a favorite. I realized I don't know which one is that, I've almost never heard separate songs from The Astonishing, always listened to it in it's entirety. I can tell the singles and the first few songs up until Three Days, I remember Heaven's Cove and The Path That Divides but otherwise all the other song titles don't ring any bells for me, I need to fix that problem heh
Like this long ass section from when Faythe decided to go look for Gabriel until her brother goes to threaten Xander, is the second biggest snooze, I don't know how many songs is that stretch, it feels like 4 songs but it's probably 2 or 3 max.

That is a stretch there for like 3 or 4 songs that start out all slow.  Like Ravenskill does as well, but then gets much heavier and interesting.  I feel that's a legit flaw of TA, it comes off as a lot of really slow soft music.

That stretch is, by far, my favorite part of the album.  And Ravenskill is probably my favorite song.  Top 3 for sure.  The cool riff to start of the heavy part is one of my favorite DT riffs of all time.  It is almost criminal neglect that it disappears after only like 20 seconds.  It bugs to so much that I even emailed JP about it awhile back, and he responded back by laughing and saying that maybe they'll have to do The Astonishing 2 so he can revisit the riff and make it up to me.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 09, 2018, 10:18:31 AM
Quote from: AikeaGuinea on November 08, 2018, 04:39:40 PM
Awake is a far superior album to Images And Words. The album improved and upgraded everything Images and Words got right. From the production, to the songs, to the jams. It's the prog fans "Prog" album. All members are on top form on this album, and has some of LaBries sickests performances, and not to forget Portnoy, his drumming is so virtuoso and fun! Kevin Moore really shines lyrically in this album; Scarred and Space Dye Vest are among the best DT songs ever written. Voices, Lifting Shadows, 6:00, this album like Images and Words has zero duds in the tracklist. Def a top 3 DT album in my book. Hell, Top 2.

I don't agree, but I also don't think it's really controversial to say Awake > I&W.

More controversial would be the statement that SDV is "among the best DT songs ever written."

I'm not sure how controversial the "no duds" statement is, but I'm of the opinion that "Innocence Faded" is one of the biggest clunkers in the band's catalog, and I also don't really like "Lie" or "The Mirror."  If those three songs were removed, Awake would be pretty close to a perfect album.


Quote from: ToT-147 on November 08, 2018, 10:32:01 PM
TA is their best Mangini-era album, and since someone here above said as controversial opinion that he thinks Awake is better than I&W, not only that I agree with him, but I consider TA to be easily better than those two... and better than SFAM too..

Now these are controversial opinions!


Quote from: Evai on November 09, 2018, 04:23:44 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 08, 2018, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2018, 04:58:14 AM
This doesn't really apply to DT much, but I find most odd-time-signature changes to be dumb. Like you're purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD.

Huh?!

I've never heard an odd time signature change that sounded like the artist was "purposefully trying to emulate a skipping CD" (or vinyl record).  Does the chorus of "Roundabout" or the middle section of "Tom Sawyer" or the main riff of Pink Floyd's "Money" sound like a skipping CD to you?

Money has the same time signature throughout, it's not an odd time signature change  :smiley:

Even putting aside the issue of 7/4 versus alternating 4/4 and 3/4, "Money" most certainly does not have "the same time signature throughout."  Even if you consider the main parts of the song to be in 7/4, the guitar solo and ending sections are in 4/4.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Progmetty on November 09, 2018, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 09, 2018, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 10:52:16 PM
That is not a controversial opinion son, that is a get-slapped-with-a-fly-swatter opinion.
TA is good, it's better than the self titled, FII & WDADU IMO, maybe even better than BS&SL, but that's as far a stretch as it goes.
When TA is good, it's brilliant, but it has huge chunks of lame, spread through out. It's very unbalanced and it fails to accomplish what it sets out to do conceptually. I've said it before but TA needed more than DT's usual 2-years album cycle deal, it had potential to be something really special I think, maybe if more time was spent on the concept and also if it was cut significantly shorter, like 1 CD would have done it just fine.

I didn't get the "fly-whatever" part, but I don't care.. It's my opinion.. And if you don't like it, good for you.. But I think you just proved my opinion is controversial, otherwise you wouldn't have reacted like it was the end of the world... son.. ;)

Just messin' with ya son :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 12, 2018, 09:39:59 AM
That's exactly the problem..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 12, 2018, 04:51:06 PM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 09, 2018, 08:51:23 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 09, 2018, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: Progmetty on November 08, 2018, 10:52:16 PM
That is not a controversial opinion son, that is a get-slapped-with-a-fly-swatter opinion.
TA is good, it's better than the self titled, FII & WDADU IMO, maybe even better than BS&SL, but that's as far a stretch as it goes.
When TA is good, it's brilliant, but it has huge chunks of lame, spread through out. It's very unbalanced and it fails to accomplish what it sets out to do conceptually. I've said it before but TA needed more than DT's usual 2-years album cycle deal, it had potential to be something really special I think, maybe if more time was spent on the concept and also if it was cut significantly shorter, like 1 CD would have done it just fine.

I didn't get the "fly-whatever" part, but I don't care.. It's my opinion.. And if you don't like it, good for you.. But I think you just proved my opinion is controversial, otherwise you wouldn't have reacted like it was the end of the world... son.. ;)

Just messin' with ya son :biggrin:

don't mess with his son :angry:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 12, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
On the subject of The Astonishing, I have a super controversial one too: The Astonishing is their best album. I even like it better than SFaM, 8varium, SDoIT, ADToE, ToT, Awake, and I&W. I'm really bummed they didn't do a live DVD/CD version of it with a live orchestra/choir. Something similar to Epica's The Classical Conspiracy or Within Temptation's Black Symphony
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mark Levinson Jr. on November 13, 2018, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Ninjabait on November 12, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
On the subject of The Astonishing, I have a super controversial one too: The Astonishing is their best album. I even like it better than SFaM, 8varium, SDoIT, ADToE, ToT, Awake, and I&W. I'm really bummed they didn't do a live DVD/CD version of it with a live orchestra/choir. Something similar to Epica's The Classical Conspiracy or Within Temptation's Black Symphony

I agree, but would like to add; The Astonishing is one of my favorite *things* of all time. Not just Dream Theater albums, or albums in general. I mean when I combine music and movies and video games, and books... it is as the top of my list.

 I just carry so many positive thoughts around with me because of The Astonishing, that I'll forever appreciate it and Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 13, 2018, 12:36:35 PM
Quote from: Mark Levinson Jr. on November 13, 2018, 11:46:44 AM
I agree, but would like to add; The Astonishing is one of my favorite *things* of all time. Not just Dream Theater albums, or albums in general. I mean when I combine music and movies and video games, and books... it is as the top of my list.

 I just carry so many positive thoughts around with me because of The Astonishing, that I'll forever appreciate it and Dream Theater.
Nice to hear! I share the same passion as you for the album. It's great that, as you get older and start appreciating more delicate and 'poppier' types of music, DT releases 2 hours of exactly that. The outro in "Begin again" particularly stands out to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 13, 2018, 12:40:42 PM
I consider myself one of the biggest fans of The Astonishing, and even I don't go that far in my consideration of that album :lol glad to see that it's sincerely and immensely appreciated also elsewhere!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

Hmmm... Misunderstood is my favourite, but TGD and Disappear share the second place. The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.

I really can't disagree with that :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: llpyyz on November 13, 2018, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

Guess I'm not one of most. It's easily my favorite, and that says a lot given how much I love Blind Faith, Misunderstood, The Test That Stumped Them All, and the utterly heartbreaking Solitary Shell.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
Quote from: llpyyz on November 13, 2018, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

Guess I'm not one of most. It's easily my favorite, and that says a lot given how much I love Blind Faith, Misunderstood, The Test That Stumped Them All, and the utterly heartbreaking Solitary Shell.

I said it because there seems to be A LOT of people here who love TGP more than anything else on that album :lol But TGD is fantastic :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 13, 2018, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
I said it because there seems to be A LOT of people here who love TGP more than anything else on that album :lol But TGD is fantastic :metal

Yeah, there really isn't too many songs that I like more than the big four off ToT, and TGP is clearly one of them.. It simply is the best prog metal song that has ever existed..

Quote from: Ninjabait on November 12, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
On the subject of The Astonishing, I have a super controversial one too: The Astonishing is their best album. I even like it better than SFaM, 8varium, SDoIT, ADToE, ToT, Awake, and I&W.

I suppose that if you think is their best, is because you like it better than all the other albums, right?.. :lol I ask this only because it was something we were talking about I think in this very thread not too many pages before..

And btw, TA rules!..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 13, 2018, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

Most days I agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 13, 2018, 05:58:39 PM
Quote from: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
Controversial opinion (and most of you will disagree with me on this): The Great Debate is the best song on SDOIT Disc 1.

Hmmm... Misunderstood is my favourite, but TGD and Disappear share the second place. The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.

Disc 1 of SDOIT is completely hit or miss for me.  Blind Faith is my favorite by a fairly wide margin.  Misunderstood is also great, although marred by the long ending section (although that's easily skippable).  TGP is really good.  The Great Debate is, for me, a bottom 5 DT song (along with, probably, Innocence Faded, New Millennium, Repentance and Ministry of Lost Souls), and Disappear is pretty well unmemorable.  In other words, when listening to disc 1 of SDOIT, once the main part of Misunderstood is done, I generally skip to disc 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on November 13, 2018, 09:19:27 PM
I'd call disc 1 of SDOIT hit-or-miss within each song. It's clear that they wanted to add experimental elements to each track, and I think most of the individual songs have aspects that work and aspects that don't.

The album really stands out in the band's discography for this approach. And due to how many of the experiments fall flat for me, it mainly stands out for its negative aspects. I am very glad that they did not make another one like it. Still probably my least favorite DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 13, 2018, 09:27:52 PM
Quote from: 425 on November 13, 2018, 09:19:27 PM
I'd call disc 1 of SDOIT hit-or-miss within each song. It's clear that they wanted to add experimental elements to each track, and I think most of the individual songs have aspects that work and aspects that don't.

The album really stands out in the band's discography for this approach. And due to how many of the experiments fall flat for me, it mainly stands out for its negative aspects. I am very glad that they did not make another one like it. Still probably my least favorite DT album.

Now THAT's what I call controversial :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 14, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.

I think I'd probably agree with this. It's a tough call but that first disc is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on November 14, 2018, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 13, 2018, 05:19:51 PM
Quote from: Ninjabait on November 12, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
On the subject of The Astonishing, I have a super controversial one too: The Astonishing is their best album. I even like it better than SFaM, 8varium, SDoIT, ADToE, ToT, Awake, and I&W.

I suppose that if you think is their best, is because you like it better than all the other albums, right?.. :lol I ask this only because it was something we were talking about I think in this very thread not too many pages before..

And btw, TA rules!..

Oh yeah, absolutely. I was mostly rattling off those albums for emphasis.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 15, 2018, 08:16:52 AM
Eve is a Top 10 song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 15, 2018, 08:20:11 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 15, 2018, 08:16:52 AM
Eve is a Top 10 song.

I think you are looking for the "metal health" thread in P/R.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on November 15, 2018, 08:52:16 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

I think if you put anything in front of MM he can play it. The guy is mega talented. I've liked him being in DT. To me, MP was much of the soul for SFAM and to not have him playing the parts live, it seems not quite right. Not saying that Mangini can't or doesn't play them right, it's not quite the same. I agree with your observation on the outro of Finally Free. That's a classic MP part.

Nevertheless, I plan on seeing them on this tour and I'm sure I will enjoy it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 08:57:21 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 15, 2018, 08:52:16 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

I think if you put anything in front of MM he can play it. The guy is mega talented. I've liked him being in DT. To me, MP was much of the soul for SFAM and to not have him playing the parts live, it seems not quite right. Not saying that Mangini can't or doesn't play them right, it's not quite the same. I agree with your observation on the outro of Finally Free. That's a classic MP part.

Nevertheless, I plan on seeing them on this tour and I'm sure I will enjoy it.

I have no idea what you mean by the bolded. He was the soul of SFAM? How about the other dudes in the band?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 15, 2018, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 14, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.
I think I'd probably agree with this. It's a tough call but that first disc is pretty amazing.
I concur. Disappear is my favorite on that disc; it grabbed me on my initial hearing of the album and has stuck with me ever since, although I love everything on the first disc save for the drawn out outro of Misunderstood. OTOH, the second disc.....well, it's grown on me, but still pales in comparison to the first disc and several other albums in their catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 15, 2018, 09:01:20 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 15, 2018, 08:20:11 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on November 15, 2018, 08:16:52 AM
Eve is a Top 10 song.

I think you are looking for the "metal health" thread in P/R.

(https://i.imgur.com/4UMy3S6.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

The thing with the FF outro on BTFW is that he didn't even try to play it like on the album. You'll see videos on youtube comparing the version of Metropolis 2000 with MP and the BTFW with MM and using it as an agument for how MP is superior to MM and blah blah. It doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't trying to do that at all. He approached that part differently. It might've been a suggestion by the band, who knows? I agree that the album version is amazing and that he probably should've tried to add his own style to it instead of doing a complete different thing, but it isn't like he tried and failed or anything like that.


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 15, 2018, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 14, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: Ruba on November 13, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
The first disc of Six Degrees is the best material they've released with Rudess.
I think I'd probably agree with this. It's a tough call but that first disc is pretty amazing.
I concur. Disappear is my favorite on that disc; it grabbed me on my initial hearing of the album and has stuck with me ever since, although I love everything on the first disc save for the drawn out outro of Misunderstood. OTOH, the second disc.....well, it's grown on me, but still pales in comparison to the first disc and several other albums in their catalog.

I think that's because the first disc has 5 very experimental songs that had stuff they never tried before (or even after), so they stand out a lot more vs disc 2 which is imo them trying to make the ultimate classic-sounding DT epic. I love both parts, but definitely prefer disc 1 over 2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

The thing with the FF outro on BTFW is that he didn't even try to play it like on the album. You'll see videos on youtube comparing the version of Metropolis 2000 with MP and the BTFW with MM and using it as an agument for how MP is superior to MM and blah blah. It doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't trying to do that at all. He approached that part differently. It might've been a suggestion by the band, who knows? I agree that the album version is amazing and that he probably should've tried to add his own style to it instead of doing a complete different thing, but it isn't like he tried and failed or anything like that.

I think if MM wanted to play the album version note-for-note he would have learned it and played it perfectly. Clearly he didn't want to do that, and honestly that's fine. My comment was that his version of that section just felt "off" to me. That's all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

The thing with the FF outro on BTFW is that he didn't even try to play it like on the album. You'll see videos on youtube comparing the version of Metropolis 2000 with MP and the BTFW with MM and using it as an agument for how MP is superior to MM and blah blah. It doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't trying to do that at all. He approached that part differently. It might've been a suggestion by the band, who knows? I agree that the album version is amazing and that he probably should've tried to add his own style to it instead of doing a complete different thing, but it isn't like he tried and failed or anything like that.

I think if MM wanted to play the album version note-for-note he would have learned it and played it perfectly. Clearly he didn't want to do that, and honestly that's fine. My comment was that his version of that section just felt "off" to me. That's all.

No worries, it wasn't a dig at you, sorry if it felt that way. I'm also hoping he plays it "closer" to the album this time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 11:12:31 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).

Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

The thing with the FF outro on BTFW is that he didn't even try to play it like on the album. You'll see videos on youtube comparing the version of Metropolis 2000 with MP and the BTFW with MM and using it as an agument for how MP is superior to MM and blah blah. It doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't trying to do that at all. He approached that part differently. It might've been a suggestion by the band, who knows? I agree that the album version is amazing and that he probably should've tried to add his own style to it instead of doing a complete different thing, but it isn't like he tried and failed or anything like that.

I think if MM wanted to play the album version note-for-note he would have learned it and played it perfectly. Clearly he didn't want to do that, and honestly that's fine. My comment was that his version of that section just felt "off" to me. That's all.

No worries, it wasn't a dig at you, sorry if it felt that way. I'm also hoping he plays it "closer" to the album this time.

All good man, no worries. I was just clarifying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 15, 2018, 06:33:14 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 15, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 15, 2018, 07:38:09 AM
Quote from: Anxiety35 on November 14, 2018, 07:56:08 AM
Here's my controversial opinion...

With the tour coming in 2019, I don't care to hear SFAM without MP on the drums.

Hear me out. I'm not an apologist for MP and I'm not one screaming for him to be back in the band. I've enjoyed every release with MM behind the kit. However, with MM playing SFAM material, it seems too rigid, too stiff (search YouTube fore clips).


Generally, I thought MM did a great job playing the SFAM material (as he usually does). The only part that stuck out to me as "off" was the outro to Finally Free. Totally lacked the energy and wild vibe it needed. Besides that, it was good.

The thing with the FF outro on BTFW is that he didn't even try to play it like on the album. You'll see videos on youtube comparing the version of Metropolis 2000 with MP and the BTFW with MM and using it as an agument for how MP is superior to MM and blah blah. It doesn't take a genius to realize he wasn't trying to do that at all. He approached that part differently. It might've been a suggestion by the band, who knows? I agree that the album version is amazing and that he probably should've tried to add his own style to it instead of doing a complete different thing, but it isn't like he tried and failed or anything like that.

I think if MM wanted to play the album version note-for-note he would have learned it and played it perfectly. Clearly he didn't want to do that, and honestly that's fine. My comment was that his version of that section just felt "off" to me. That's all.

Is it that one part where he does an odd time sig, or something of the sort.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 16, 2018, 07:20:57 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 15, 2018, 06:33:14 PM
Is it that one part where he does an odd time sig, or something of the sort.

Just talking about the outro of the song when MP does a series of fills over the outro riff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2018, 09:03:57 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 16, 2018, 07:20:57 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 15, 2018, 06:33:14 PM
Is it that one part where he does an odd time sig, or something of the sort.

Just talking about the outro of the song when MP does a series of fills over the outro riff.

Me too. Mangini does a polyrhytmn or something of that sort. Thats why that part sounds off.

I don't care how Mangini or Portnoy played that part. I saw it as basically an ending fade out drum solo.

I do hope they bring back the outro instrumental though, its an epic way to end it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 16, 2018, 11:29:31 PM
My controversial opinion is that as a drummer, I hate that Finally Free outro. I always viewed drum parts as playing a function for the song, but that part is just a freaking "look-at-me" moment that got old after a few listens.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on November 17, 2018, 11:22:30 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 16, 2018, 11:29:31 PM
My controversial opinion is that as a drummer, I hate that Finally Free outro. I always viewed drum parts as playing a function for the song, but that part is just a freaking "look-at-me" moment that got old after a few listens.

But isn't that because you hate everything MP has ever recorded?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 17, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
LOL. Well, Awake is still my most favorite drumming album, so no. :-P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 17, 2018, 07:09:54 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 17, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
LOL. Well, Awake is still my most favorite drumming album, so no. :-P

Agree! Awake is one of MP's best drumming recordings by far. Not necesarilly the tone, as his tone with Tama is better, but the creativity and playing on all the parts is incredible.

Other one that I think shows MP's current style very well, even though is highly underated, is Systematic Chaos. The songs might not be everybody's cup of tea, but no one can deny MP's drumming is top notch there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 18, 2018, 07:47:17 AM
I doubt this will be controversial, but find me a Dream Theater album where the drumming isn't top notch.  I will save you the time: you can't, so don't bother.  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 18, 2018, 08:09:47 AM
I will say BC&SL. It's a weird mix of uninspired and overdrumming.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on November 18, 2018, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 18, 2018, 08:09:47 AM
I will say BC&SL. It's a weird mix of uninspired and overdrumming.

I'd say that about the drumming from Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL to be honest. Nothing at all badly performed, but his bag of tricks felt overdone by that point and he never really seemed to push himself or expand his vocabulary like he did on ToT and before. I'd say as a whole, ToT was the last album where MP's drumming felt really inspired. His downward trajectory is directly correlated to his lack of octoban/aux percussion usage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 18, 2018, 10:13:56 AM
Nah..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on November 18, 2018, 10:43:20 AM
Quote from: DTA on November 18, 2018, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on November 18, 2018, 08:09:47 AM
I will say BC&SL. It's a weird mix of uninspired and overdrumming.

I'd say that about the drumming from Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL to be honest. Nothing at all badly performed, but his bag of tricks felt overdone by that point and he never really seemed to push himself or expand his vocabulary like he did on ToT and before. I'd say as a whole, ToT was the last album where MP's drumming felt really inspired. His downward trajectory is directly correlated to his lack of octoban/aux percussion usage.

There were some gems from that run of albums. Octavarium, Panic Attack, Constant Motion, TDEN, and ITPOE is MP really drumming to the song. They have the elements of what I love about his work in Awake: I can hear how meticulously composed the drum parts are to fit the music and mark the sections of the song. Somewhere along the way, MP relied more and more on flashiness instead of his very good composition skills to show how good he is, and for me, it didn't work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 18, 2018, 12:07:34 PM
Yes, there’s a lot GREAT drumming in OVM and SC, specially the latter. For BC&SL he sounds very sterile and like he just didn’t care too much, imo.  That blastbeat wasn’t good, AROP has the worst MP fill ever recorded and he overplayed in many parts of Wither. TBOT has a very cool intro but the rest is MP by the numbers. TCOT and TSF do have very good/consistent drumming, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on November 19, 2018, 12:21:56 AM
Agreed about MP's drumming. After TOT it felt like i knew each fill and each cymbal hit before it was even played. Still very enjoyable drumming, but nothing mindblowing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2018, 11:28:05 AM
TBH, I think there is a lot of overplaying by MP on I&W.  I don't think it's so bad as to be tasteless, but nevertheless.

I also understand that the triggers don't do it any favors.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 23, 2018, 11:03:04 AM
 :lol Good one..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 24, 2018, 08:24:55 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.


This is just foolish.  I go in knowing the expectations are lessened because of age. That goes for all or them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 24, 2018, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.
YIKES,,  Pretty bold for a 3rd post!  But........NO! James Labrie rocks and is irreplaceable imo.
Anyway, welcome to the forum..  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on November 24, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on November 24, 2018, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.
YIKES,,  Pretty bold for a 3rd post!  But........NO! James Labrie rocks and is irreplaceable imo.
Anyway, welcome to the forum..  :lol

His last post was 2 years ago.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 24, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: Zook on November 24, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
His last post was 2 years ago.

I wonder what prompts trolls to come out randomly like this.  No real reason for this one.  Meh.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ganjalf on November 24, 2018, 08:26:53 PM
I'm not trolling, it's just my honest opinion. I'm not saying it to provoke and you definitely don't have to agree with me. I respect your disagreement.

Have i missed the point of this thread..?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 24, 2018, 08:26:53 PM
I'm not trolling, it's just my honest opinion. I'm not saying it to provoke and you definitely don't have to agree with me. I respect your disagreement.

Have i missed the point of this thread..?

Yes, you have:

Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM
I thought this might be an interesting topic-- thinking of any thoughts you have on DT songs or albums that you think will spark mass debate and not sit well with the general crowd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dream75 on November 25, 2018, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.

When did you stop going to concerts?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ganjalf on November 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
Quote from: dream75 on November 25, 2018, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.

When did you stop going to concerts?

After the Astonishing tour. I had only seen them one time before on the Along for the ride tour, but i guess i was just so excited to finally see them that i didn't really care. But The Astonishing was HORRIBLE! After that i didn't want to see him butcher Images & Words on the anniversary tour as well so i decided that i won't be going to their future concerts. It's much better to watch their dvds and blu-rays. Especially Score since it's totally dubbed.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on November 25, 2018, 06:24:09 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
Quote from: dream75 on November 25, 2018, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 23, 2018, 11:01:28 AM
They should fire LaBrie. I think they even know that. I've stopped going to their concerts because of him.

When did you stop going to concerts?

After the Astonishing tour. I had only seen them one time before on the Along for the ride tour, but i guess i was just so excited to finally see them that i didn't really care. But The Astonishing was HORRIBLE! After that i didn't want to see him butcher Images & Words on the anniversary tour as well so i decided that i won't be going to their future concerts. It's much better to watch their dvds and blu-rays. Especially Score since it's totally dubbed.

What!?? The Astonishing was an awesome concert. And JLB was sounding great! I saw it 3 times, traveling twice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.  I'd still go see them if they came to St. Louis, but I doubt I'd travel to see them ever again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.

I think I have read and heard several times that very same thing.. I have the strong impression that most people who likes James' nowaday performances are those that actually go to see him, and that most people that do not like how he sounds are people judging him by youtube videos... (which, like in this case, it could happen simultaneously)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on November 25, 2018, 11:09:15 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.

I think I have read and heard several times that very same thing.. I have the strong impression that most people who likes James' nowaday performances are those that actually go to see him, and that most people that do not like how he sounds are people judging him by youtube videos... (which, like in this case, it could happen simultaneously)

It’s been said before but cell phone recordings can be super unforgiving. Every time I see them I always first watch some YouTube videos and get nervous about how LaBrie is going to perform, but when it comes to concert time, LIVE, he does fine and I always go home impressed. An actual rock/metal concert is pushing some serious decibels and in the onslaught of sound and experience you don’t really notice or even care if LaBrie is or isn’t 100% on pitch. That said I did NOT see them on the last tour.

But he sounded good on the Astonishing, and GREAT on Along for the Ride. I’m fairly confident he’ll be able to pull off Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DreamerTV on November 26, 2018, 12:24:51 AM
I’ve never, ever, come back home unhappy from a DT concert because of a JLB night off. And i’ve seen them on every tour cicle since 2005.
If anything, the only time I didn’t like a gig it was because of the package (damn PN ‘09) and a setlist made so most of the time James wasn’t on stage.

And, for sure, for the reasons Volante99 said, if you go home looking back on YT of what you thought was a perfect night for him you might find it wasn’t, thing is: why do I have to look for proofs I was wrong about something I actually felt great about?!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 26, 2018, 03:48:52 AM
Concerts are all about the experience, being there in the moment. If it seemed good to you when you was there, then it was good. If you think that Petrucci played flawlessly, then he played flawlessly, no matter if he did a minor screwup that, if you enhance a lot a YouTube video and raise your espensive headphones to the maximum, you are then able to hear.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 04:13:54 AM
Honestly that's kind of my gripe with singular live songs in general. I don't think you can really get that "concert experience" without the context of the entire set, so if you try to play just one song it's always just "hey, here's the song again but worse". :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 26, 2018, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
Especially Score since it's totally dubbed.
It's not. Live at Budokan is the only one of their newer DVDs (with MP, afterwards no one asked them about those things) that has vocal overdubs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ganjalf on November 26, 2018, 07:31:08 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on November 26, 2018, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 25, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
Especially Score since it's totally dubbed.
It's not. Live at Budokan is the only one of their newer DVDs (with MP, afterwards no one asked them about those things) that has vocal overdubs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDcEBq9GrLk

If you can't hear the difference i don't know what to say..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 26, 2018, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 24, 2018, 08:26:53 PM
I'm not trolling, it's just my honest opinion. I'm not saying it to provoke and you definitely don't have to agree with me. I respect your disagreement.

Have i missed the point of this thread..?

Yes, you have:

Quote from: Lucidity on December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM
I thought this might be an interesting topic-- thinking of any thoughts you have on DT songs or albums that you think will spark mass debate and not sit well with the general crowd.

Not only that, but Rule #12:

Quote
12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc.

Calling for a band member to be fired is CLEARLY crossing the line.  Any similar types of comments may result in a ban from the forums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ganjalf on November 26, 2018, 08:26:01 AM
Wow.. i guess i'm done posting here then if you can't handle an honest opinion.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 26, 2018, 08:50:53 AM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 26, 2018, 08:26:01 AM
Wow.. i guess i'm done posting here then if you can't handle an honest opinion.  :facepalm:

Up to you.  But it's more an issue of whether you can handle following rules.  You are welcome to have any opinion you like.  And, within reasonable bounds, you are welcome to express that opinion.  As we often say, for the most part, it isn't what you say, but how you say it.  Again, whether you choose to abide by that is on you.  If so, by all means stay.  If not...well, that's easy too. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on November 26, 2018, 12:56:56 PM
For sure James voice is the weak link live.  We all know that but they are not going to throw him out for that.  Bands work around that as they get older.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 26, 2018, 04:54:40 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.

I think I have read and heard several times that very same thing.. I have the strong impression that most people who likes James' nowaday performances are those that actually go to see him, and that most people that do not like how he sounds are people judging him by youtube videos... (which, like in this case, it could happen simultaneously)

I've only seen them once which was on the Images and Words anniversary tour. I thought LaBrie sounded good if a bit grating on the ears. I rarely go to concerts so maybe I'm just not used to the volume. Everything was so loud that his vocals weren't as clear as they are on a YouTube video. Plus I was very hyped and very drunk. I'd be interested to hear some cellphone recording of that night I went to see them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 26, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.

I think I have read and heard several times that very same thing.. I have the strong impression that most people who likes James' nowaday performances are those that actually go to see him, and that most people that do not like how he sounds are people judging him by youtube videos... (which, like in this case, it could happen simultaneously)

Boring fans who go to concerts to intently listen to every little thing to point out any mistake notwithstanding ;), it's easy to get swept up in the euphoria of a concert and not notice mistakes, flubs, rough vocals, etc.  Heck, Geddy Lee sounded pretty rough the last few Rush tours, but I barely noticed at the shows I saw and still enjoyed the hell out of them, so it's easy to do the same thing with Dream Theater shows and JLB's vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 26, 2018, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: Ganjalf on November 26, 2018, 08:26:01 AM
Wow.. i guess i'm done posting here then if you can't handle an honest opinion.  :facepalm:

I don't think what you said was that bad but it would've went down a little better if you said LaBrie should be replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 26, 2018, 05:44:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 26, 2018, 05:00:43 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 25, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 25, 2018, 06:27:04 PM
JLB sounded good when I saw them on the Astonishing tour, but most of the clips I saw from the I&W And Beyond tour were rough to watch, to put it nicely.
I think I have read and heard several times that very same thing.. I have the strong impression that most people who likes James' nowaday performances are those that actually go to see him, and that most people that do not like how he sounds are people judging him by youtube videos... (which, like in this case, it could happen simultaneously)
Boring fans who go to concerts to intently listen to every little thing to point out any mistake notwithstanding ;), it's easy to get swept up in the euphoria of a concert and not notice mistakes, flubs, rough vocals, etc.  Heck, Geddy Lee sounded pretty rough the last few Rush tours, but I barely noticed at the shows I saw and still enjoyed the hell out of them, so it's easy to do the same thing with Dream Theater shows and JLB's vocals.
Certainly the excitement of the show (and the loud volume) can cause a fan to gloss over some of the finer details of a performance, including the flaws, but if the flaws are significant enough, the excitement won't be enough to ignore them. When I saw DT at the RCMH show in 2006, JP's guitar dropped out during UaGM (magically fixed for Score!), and there was no way anyone wouldn't notice that.

And even when I saw Rush for the last time, which happened to be their very last show in LA, I remember thinking to myself "boy I really hope Geddy's able to make it through this show, because he really seems to be struggling". Previously I had not been critical of Geddy's vocals, nor had I been making any effort whatsoever to notice any flaws in his singing, but it was way too obvious that I couldn't help but notice.

I'd say the same thing is true about JL's performances. I've seen them at least once on every tour since 1993, and while I know he'd sometimes hit some flat notes or struggle to reach some high notes at various shows throughout the years, I can't say that there's ever been a show that has stood out to me that made me think he was really struggling. That goes for every tour up to 2016. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the tour last year (first time I missed a DT tour), so I can't comment on those shows from personal experience. But while there are no doubt many armchair quarterbacks that are critiquing JL's performances based strictly on what they see on YouTube, I've seen enough comments from those in attendance at those 2017 shows who said they could tell JL was struggling. A few may have been the "boring fans" Kev's referring to who were looking for every little mistake, but that's not the case with most of them, any more than I was when I saw the aforementioned DT and Rush shows. So I don't think ToT-147's comments are very accurate.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 26, 2018, 06:07:56 PM
As someone who has recorded some DT music live, I concur that I don't notice the mistakes until I listen afterwards.  In the moment I always come away thinking JLB sounded great, and on most of the videos he does.  But there's definitely spots from both the TA shows (Lord Nefaryus spots) and I&W where you could easily notice him struggling on the recordings (and to further prove that, my gf spotted one while I was watching my video and she had never heard the song before, just made an off hand comment while she was doing something else along the lines of "wow, the singer really is struggling there").  JLB overall is good for me though, he sounds mostly great and I think the band will continue to write music and perform songs in a way that better suite his aging voice. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
@Setlist Scotty - Fair enough.. But I guess none of us here is really trying to be "accurate".. Saying "most of people...", "a few", "enough comments..." has nothing to do with accuracy.. We're rather sharing different experiencies and point of views about this very old and trite subject (or well trodden, or played out... well, a cliche, you got the idea)..

@KevShmev - Since you were at first talking about clips that were rough to watch, and I then talked about James' performance, I was really including the whole acting he does on stage in my comment, not only the singing part.. Once you're in the show, you're seeing him moving around, shaking his head, clapping and interacting with the crowd.. With youtube videos, you don't have any of that, so I think that euphoria is an intrinsic part of the experience of going to see him and seeing the band.....

(and none of the following is directed at any of you in particular)

..... Because we're really seeing the band after all.. I mean, and I've been wanted to say this for a very long time, I think criticism against James, besides being very excessive and unfair, is directly fallacious.. I think that if we like a certain band, therefore we should go to the shows to see the entire band, right?... not just the singer.. And if we're in the mood to criticize a band as if we were a jury of music specialists rather than fans, then we should criticize the whole band and not just focus on destroying one of the members.. Much less when it comes to the hardest instrument to execute correctly (the voice) and when it comes to one of the most demanding bands in terms of that same instrument... and when we're not talking about any young singer precisely, ETC...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 09:12:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most band members fired for personality reasons rather than their strength as a performer? I mean, whether you love or hate LaBrie, we can't really tell how well he still "gels" with the other members creatively.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 26, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
(and none of the following is directed at any of you in particular)

..... Because we're really seeing the band after all.. I mean, and I've been wanted to say this for a very long time, I think criticism against James, besides being very excessive and unfair, is directly fallacious.. I think that if we like a certain band, therefore we should go to the shows to see the entire band, right?... not just the singer.. And if we're in the mood to criticize a band as if we were a jury of music specialists rather than fans, then we should criticize the whole band and not just focus on destroying one of the members.. Much less when it comes to the hardest instrument to execute correctly (the voice) and when it comes to one of the most demanding bands in terms of that same instrument... and when we're not talking about any young singer precisely, ETC...

I don't understand your position on this. Why is it fallacious to criticize one member in a band? If that band member is always fucking up (and I'm not saying LaBrie is guilty of this) then that band member can bring the whole performance down. Let's say the guitar player is terrible but the rest of the band is amazing. Why should the talents of the rest of the band shield the guitarist from criticism?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 26, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 09:12:25 PM
...we can't really tell how well he still "gels" with the other members creatively.

We can't really know how any band member gels with other members, just like you can't really know about couples. Ever known a couple who told you they were getting divorced, and couldn't believe it because you never would have thought anything was wrong?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 26, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
(and none of the following is directed at any of you in particular)

..... Because we're really seeing the band after all.. I mean, and I've been wanted to say this for a very long time, I think criticism against James, besides being very excessive and unfair, is directly fallacious.. I think that if we like a certain band, therefore we should go to the shows to see the entire band, right?... not just the singer.. And if we're in the mood to criticize a band as if we were a jury of music specialists rather than fans, then we should criticize the whole band and not just focus on destroying one of the members.. Much less when it comes to the hardest instrument to execute correctly (the voice) and when it comes to one of the most demanding bands in terms of that same instrument... and when we're not talking about any young singer precisely, ETC...

I don't understand your position on this. Why is it fallacious to criticize one member in a band? If that band member is always fucking up (and I'm not saying LaBrie is guilty of this) then that band member can bring the whole performance down. Let's say the guitar player is terrible but the rest of the band is amazing. Why should the talents of the rest of the band shield the guitarist from criticism?

I added many layers in that comment, maybe that's what's a bit confusing.. But I partially agree with your comment..

It doesn't seem so bad to me that someone criticizes a single faulty member, if that someone is dedicated to criticize bands instead of listening and enjoying the show.. But if, like many of us, you only go there to enjoy the show, as many of us in fact do then I don't understand why that same person would criticize any member after having seen a couple of youtube videos that he didn't like of the very same show (and I know some cases first hand).. Get the difference?..

Anyways, I'm not saying that people can't do that.. They do it all the time.. I just found it to be contradictory and mean, especially to the singer, which is undeservedly the most judged everytime..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on November 26, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 09:12:25 PM
...we can't really tell how well he still "gels" with the other members creatively.

We can't really know how any band member gels with other members, just like you can't really know about couples. Ever known a couple who told you they were getting divorced, and couldn't believe it because you never would have thought anything was wrong?

That's exactly my point. Who are we to say he should be fired if all we know about him is what we see of him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 27, 2018, 07:57:31 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

Well, all you've said proves the contrary... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 27, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
Being a fan doesn't mean thinking the band is flawless. DT is my favourite band to ever exist, yet I have no desire to see them live in concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertie_Wooster on November 27, 2018, 08:46:18 AM
This probably isn’t controversial. DT did those excellent unplugged shows in paris
And have never released them . The unplugged “speak to me” was awesome
The only version I have is on the videotape they released. I really wish DT
Would release an unplugged album of their songs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 27, 2018, 09:50:21 AM
It could have been a bonus album for the new record.

I've done myself a thread about what people would want from a bonus disc, the majority wanted a DVD of the recording, I'm in in the minority in wishing for additional studio stuff, such as new songs or rearrangements of older songs, including acoustic versions as you suggested.

It could be a minor, additional EP - One or two new songs written in an acoustic settings, ore or two older songs rearranged, and one or two covers. I'd dig that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 09:55:22 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

Well...some of these are certainly controversial.

1. I would say the band was it its height from 92-05, with the only hiccup being FII.  They experienced a resurgence with ADTOE and DT 12, and I'm hoping they get back on track with the new album.
2. Completely disagree.  Ballads are not really what I want from DT, but Along for the Ride, Beneath the Surface, Wither and many others are well above average songs.
3. Disagree, and I've never really understood the "cult" that seems to worships KM's lyrics.
4. I agree that Portnoy brought an element of personality that the band now lacks.  Not saying that's good or bad.  Sherinian wasn't in the band long enough to make any lasting impact (esp. since the only album he played on is one of the band's bottom 3 IMO).
5. Not really sure what this even means.
6. Not at all unique to DT, and I agree that albums in general in the last 15-20 years have gotten cumbersomely long.  Bands write to the limits of the primary medium (the CD) and, as a result, include songs that shouldn't have made the cut.  That said, suggesting that bands conform to the temporal limitations of a vinyl LP is a bit absurd.
7. Disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 27, 2018, 10:15:05 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 27, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
Being a fan doesn't mean thinking the band is flawless. DT is my favourite band to ever exist, yet I have no desire to see them live in concert.

Except he's not saying the band isn't flawless, but complaining about things that are important to the current DT sound (lyrics, ballads, album's length, production).. Plus, one thing is having no desire to see them live, and another is to say "Todays DT feels like a band of dorks"..

Once again, I have to agree with Bertielee.. The most controversial part of that comment is that last thing he said..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 27, 2018, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

Sure, I'll play too.

1.  Eh.  Subjective.  I think you would find yourself in a small minority in terms of the era you picked.  But that said, the band's entire career has been pretty great, so I'm not sure "greatest" really matters.
2.  Not at all.  And as far as quantity, other than ADTOE, which had three, most albums only have one or two.  That is hardly "too many." 
3.  I would consider KM to be the worst lyricist the band has had, with a few exceptions.  I'm with pg1067.  I've never really understood the "cult" that seems to worships KM's lyrics.
4.  I'm not sure why this is somehow a thing.
5.  I'm not sure what this means.
6.  I'm not sure why anyone would want less.  A band that can only come up with 30 - 45 minutes of acceptable material per album just isn't trying hard enough.
7.  I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to.  But I don't hear any decline in production, so I don't agree.

Total score:
1 - Maybe, but so what?
1 - So what?
5 - No.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 27, 2018, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.

Please no.  Haken's biggest problem with Vector is that it was too short ~ 40 minutes.  If they only have the juice to spit out a 40 minute album, so be it, but I don't want them to purposely write shorter albums or hold themselves back from creating more music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dream75 on November 27, 2018, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM


1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07

The greatest era was from 92-99  :tup
The worst was 2002-2010  :tdwn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on November 27, 2018, 12:30:58 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

My 2 cents, if you will.

1. 92 - 02 for me. Depending on the next couple of albums, 2011 - ? could put up a good fight.
2. This Is the Life says no.
3. Myung is the best lyricist for me, and for a strange unexplicable phenomenon his lyrics produce some of DT's best vocal lines.
4. My first DT live experience featured both Derek and Mike. They were still a band of adorable dorks, infectious in their appreciation of the music they were playing.
5. They became famous due to the best album of the nineties and a very successful song on MTV heavy rotation.
6. Never got tired of a DT album, even BC&SL
7. It really depends on what you mean by production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 27, 2018, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 26, 2018, 09:12:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most band members fired for personality reasons rather than their strength as a performer? I mean, whether you love or hate LaBrie, we can't really tell how well he still "gels" with the other members creatively.
While their personalities may have played a role in being fired, I think the primary reasons for why both Chris Collins and Charlie Dominici were let go were due to their performances - Chris for being too one dimensional (could hit the Geoff Tate high notes, but not much else) and Charlie for his limited range and subdued stage presence.
 
 
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.
Don't feel the need to respond to all of your points since others have already addressed them in ways that I agree with but I do want to comment on some of them:
2. Disagree. Don't forget that DT basically has 3 sides to their musical personality: progressive, metal and pop, and those ballads are one of the expressions of the pop side of the band.
3. While I do like KevMo's lyrics, how many did he write? Very few in comparison to the other guys in the band. I'm sure that you could find an equal number of great lyrics by any of the other guys. Had KevMo remained in the band, I'm sure he would've contributed his fair share of clunkers just like everyone else.
6. If you don't like the length of their albums, cut them down to the length that you do like. Don't forget that there are plenty of people who love the very songs that you hate, and vice versa as is evident from the threads and polls about ranking songs and albums. Having more music per album creates a greater opportunity for the band to create something everyone will like.
 
 
Quote from: dream75 on November 27, 2018, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
The greatest era was from 92-99  :tup
The worst was 2002-2010  :tdwn
Dream on, Dream75.    :P   
(this whole arguing over the best era is ridiculous)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?

Like....at all?

I love some of their other songs that people don't, but I just do not get that song at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 27, 2018, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 27, 2018, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.

Please no.  Haken's biggest problem with Vector is that it was too short ~ 40 minutes.  If they only have the juice to spit out a 40 minute album, so be it, but I don't want them to purposely write shorter albums or hold themselves back from creating more music.
This!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 27, 2018, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?

Like....at all?

I love some of their other songs that people don't, but I just do not get that song at all.

No, you're not. It's not that I find it ugly or anything, I can live with it just fine, but I never clicked with it and it was fine to never hear it live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 27, 2018, 12:39:21 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?
Well, if you don't like it and you LOVE Rush's Grace Under Pressure album, you definitely are Stadler's arch enemy!   :biggrin:

Personally, the song doesn't do much for me, but I don't mind it either. I wouldn't skip it when listening to the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 27, 2018, 12:39:21 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?
Well, if you don't like it and you LOVE Rush's Grace Under Pressure album, you definitely are Stadler's arch enemy!   :biggrin:

Personally, the song doesn't do much for me, but I don't mind it either. I wouldn't skip it when listening to the album.

I was born Stadler's arch enemy, and I will die Stadler's arch enemy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on November 27, 2018, 12:41:44 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?

Like....at all?

I love some of their other songs that people don't, but I just do not get that song at all.

This for me plays into Setlist Scotty's point about the album lengths:
"Don't forget that there are plenty of people who love the very songs that you hate, and vice versa as is evident from the threads and polls about ranking songs and albums. "

No one agrees on which are the best, or which are the worst songs.  With some bands or albums there might be more of a consensus among the listeners - songs A, B, and C are filler.  Not so with DT.

To respond to your post - I like This is the Life.  It's not my favorite, but I really enjoy it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on November 27, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.


1. The greatest era of the band was 1992-1995. I&W and Awake. That's unpopular. But hey, that's how I see it.
2. I disagree, although I haven't liked a lot of the ballad songs post-Six Degrees
3. Don't agree, but Kev Mo was certainly a key element of what made Dream Theater as good as it was on I&W and Awake (I think JP and MP get a bit TOO much credit, when Kev Mo was vital to the music and lyrical popularity of those records).
4. I don't think DT now are just dorky, but I do think MP and DS kept things a lot looser. I mean, MP is a huge geek/dork himself. But they did have a looser vibe that I preferred.
5. I agree with this, although I think they have tried to make strides focusing on their songwriting from DT 12 and onward. Still technical, but a little more streamlined and writing for the song.
6. AMEN on the FIRST two sentences. Disagree on the third. I think a happy medium (which is what a REAL OUTSIDE PRODUCER WOULD HELP WITH) should be to look around that 50-minute mark, give or take a few minutes. But that "issue" gets solved if the aforementioned filler is omitted.
7. Agree on the first part of that sentence. Not sure on the second. I still maintain that Dream Theater needs an outside influence in the producer's chair, to help hone in. THey obviously are successful without that, but I think a lot of the pointless bloat could have been avoided (such as ruining "Endless Sacrifice" with a five-minute solo that has nothing to do with the song itself, and trimming it to a trade off that last two minutes and sounds connected to melody and mood of the song itself). Those are the sorts of thing I think a producer could really help them with. But again, they are the ones successful, not us. So they obviously know what works for them. I just happen not to dig it as much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dream75 on November 27, 2018, 01:13:02 PM

 
 
Quote from: dream75 on November 27, 2018, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
The greatest era was from 92-99  :tup
The worst was 2002-2010  :tdwn
Dream on, Dream75.    :P   
(this whole arguing over the best era is ridiculous)
[/quote]

Why? For me all the best albums were made at that time!
I&W
AWAKE
ACOS
SFAM
The worst between 2003-2009
TOT
SC
BCSL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 27, 2018, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 27, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
Being a fan doesn't mean thinking the band is flawless. DT is my favourite band to ever exist, yet I have no desire to see them live in concert.

That's not what I said, but read his post again and tell me It's from someone who still loves the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 01:34:25 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 27, 2018, 12:33:43 PM
3. While I do like KevMo's lyrics, how many did he write? Very few in comparison to the other guys in the band. I'm sure that you could find an equal number of great lyrics by any of the other guys. Had KevMo remained in the band, I'm sure he would've contributed his fair share of clunkers just like everyone else.

Just for shits and giggles, the lyric credits for the songs on WDADU through DT12 (including ACOS, excluding "Take the Time," counting each of the seven parts of 6DOIT with lyrics and the five parts of 8VA as separate songs, counting ITPOE as a single song, and obviously not including instrumentals) are as follows (where multiple lyricists are credited, I gave each co-writer equal fractional credit):

JP:  57.5 (I gave JP full writing credit for "You Not Me" since the co-lyricist was not a band member) (including TA would bump the number up to 84.5)
MP:  22
JL:  9.5
KM:  8
JM:  5.5
CD:  1.5

So, KM wrote lyrics for nearly as many DT songs as JL and still more than the other "sacred cow" of DT lyric writing, JM.

Speaking of which, I don't understand the "cult" of JM lyric writing any better than I do for KM.


Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?

Like....at all?

It's fine.  Nothing special.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 27, 2018, 01:50:35 PM
I also think Kevin Moore wrote the best lyrics, but who's to say his lyrics would have been consistent for the next 25 years.  If we are comparing from the same albums he wrote songs for, I think he wins, but it's hard to compare KM lyrics in the early 90s to JP in the late 2010s.  KM may have continued to prove he was a good writer or maybe he would have gone off the deep end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on November 27, 2018, 02:00:10 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 27, 2018, 12:35:46 PM
Hmmm, after reading some stuff.........am I the only person who really really doesn't like This is The Life?

Like....at all?

I love some of their other songs that people don't, but I just do not get that song at all.

Personally, it's a combination of lyrics and pace that strongly resonates with me. I can really understand finding it pretty uneventful without that kind of connection  though.

Quote from: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 01:34:25 PM
So, KM wrote lyrics for nearly as many DT songs as JL and still more than the other "sacred cow" of DT lyric writing, JM.

Speaking of which, I don't understand the "cult" of JM lyric writing any better than I do for KM.

(I snipped the stats, but they're very interesting)

Not speaking for any "cult", but strictly personally, I find Johnny M's abstract and borderline campy lyrics a perfect match for progressive music. But, really, nothing is sacred  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 27, 2018, 02:02:55 PM
Even without justifiably subtracting points for the abomination of Space Dye Vest, I would put KM behind John Myung and John Petrucci for their lyrical contributions from WDADU through Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: deggs37 on November 27, 2018, 02:11:34 PM
Quote from: Bertielee on November 27, 2018, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 27, 2018, 08:31:47 AM
Being a fan doesn't mean thinking the band is flawless. DT is my favourite band to ever exist, yet I have no desire to see them live in concert.

That's not what I said, but read his post again and tell me It's from someone who still loves the band.

You're both correct in a way. I LOVED the band from when I discovered them in 2002 until around 2011 or 2012. I'm talking fanatic levels. In addition to all their albums (CD and Vinyl) and DVD's in my collection, I bought JP's signature guitars (Mystic Dream ftw) and played them exclusively, had his entire amp setup with the Mark IV head and Mesa cabs. His tone and playing was my holy grail that I worked towards everyday studying his Wild Stringdom book and Rock Discipline video. I attended and graduated Berklee because of DT. My friends even started calling me Petrucci.

But even when I was in the honeymoon period with the band, I still had those issues.
Agree to disagree, those are my opinions - subjective as they are.

I guess eventually those burning passions fade as you get older and gain more perspective. I would no longer refer to myself as a fanatic, just a fan. But my nostalgia for those great years I enjoyed with Dream Theater still makes me love them for what they used to be for me - similar with how I feel about Metallica. I'll still continue to check out their albums and blu-rays on release, and go to their shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 27, 2018, 02:21:06 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 27, 2018, 01:50:35 PM
I also think Kevin Moore wrote the best lyrics, but who's to say his lyrics would have been consistent for the next 25 years.  If we are comparing from the same albums he wrote songs for, I think he wins, but it's hard to compare KM lyrics in the early 90s to JP in the late 2010s.  KM may have continued to prove he was a good writer or maybe he would have gone off the deep end.

I think of Kevin's lyrics along the same lines as James Dean's acting career. He is seemingly generally considered to have a stellar, albeit brief, film career. Ok, so he knocked it out of the park on the three films he was in, but I don't think it reasonable to elevate him to legendary status based on only three performances. No one endures a full acting career without churning out some duds.

As far as the quality of Kevin's lyrics, I am not a lyrical guy, so won't comment on the words themselves. But the construction of the vocal lines and melodies is horrible, as if it never occurred to him a vocalist might need to take a breath or two during a verse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on November 27, 2018, 02:23:08 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 27, 2018, 02:02:55 PM
Even without justifiably subtracting points for the abomination of Space Dye Vest,

WRONG. That is an incredible song, and as always, your bad taste in songs shines through, Mr. All I Want.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertie_Wooster on November 27, 2018, 04:01:53 PM
They need to record “eve” with  vocals
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 27, 2018, 01:50:35 PM
I also think Kevin Moore wrote the best lyrics, but who's to say his lyrics would have been consistent for the next 25 years.  If we are comparing from the same albums he wrote songs for, I think he wins, but it's hard to compare KM lyrics in the early 90s to JP in the late 2010s.  KM may have continued to prove he was a good writer or maybe he would have gone off the deep end.

Hmmm...

KM
Light Fuse and Get Away - Not lyrically memorable for me (and don't really care for the song).
Only a Matter of Time - Probably my second favorite song on WDADU, but that's mostly for the music.  There are a couple cool lyrical moments.
Pull Me Under - Nothing original, but a reasonable effort at condensing Hamlet into a song format.
Surrounded - I enjoy the imagery.  Probably my favorite KM lyric.
Wait for Sleep - It's fine but very short.
6:00 - Meh, but I like the song a lot.
Lie - A bottom 10 DT song and not lyrically memorable for me.
Space-Dye Vest - Kinda cool, but really just weird, although the lyrics work with the music in the same way that some of John Anderson's nonsense lyrics worked with Yes's music.

JP
A Fortune in Lies - To the extent the lyrics are memorable, I have no real idea what the song is about.
Status Seeker - A so-so effort at a hit single in all respects.
The Killing Hand - Best song on WDADU, and I really like the story (although it's rather abstract).
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - Probably my least favorite song on WDADU and not memorable lyrically.
Another Day - A poignant song and fairly uplifting.
Metropolis - The song is better than the lyrics, but the lyrics are cool and have several memorable moments.
Under a Glass Moon - I'm in the minority in that I don't care for this song, and I have no idea what it's about.
Caught in a Web (with JL) - Really like the song.  The lyrics are not terribly memorable other than the chorus.
Innocence Faded - A bottom 5 DT song and not lyrically memorable.
Voices - The start of JP's "obsession" with songs about mental health.  Some cool parts, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that some lines are lifted verbatim from an outside source.
The Silent Man - Good but short.
Scarred - One of my favorite DT songs.  Not sure what it's about, but it's cool.

JM
Learning to Live - Very good.  I remember being proud of myself when I figured out what it was about.
Lifting Shadows Off a Dream - Love the song.  Not sure what it's about.

CD
Status Seeker - See above.
Afterlife - Meh.

MP
The Mirror - Another bottom 5-10 DT song for me.  I assume it's a dime-a-dozen song about cocaine, which by 1994 was a tired subject.

I'd have to give JP the edge over KM.  Everyone else's body of work was too small to compare fairly, but I'd rank JM third and MP/CD 4th or 5th in whatever order.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 27, 2018, 04:51:27 PM
I like KM's lyrics. They were different for DT, which was good.

That said, in the time frame of WDADU - FII, I'm giving the edge WIDELY to JP.

After that though? Ehhhhhh. Hit or miss for everyone. No one's had a great record since SFAM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: Bertie_Wooster on November 27, 2018, 04:01:53 PM
They need to record “eve” with  vocals

Be sure to let us know when you're finished with the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 27, 2018, 06:42:31 PM
Regarding This Is The Life...


There are certainly songs I like more, but I must say that TITL is a perfectly written song. One of their finest moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 27, 2018, 06:45:34 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: Bertie_Wooster on November 27, 2018, 04:01:53 PM
They need to record “eve” with  vocals

Be sure to let us know when you're finished with the lyrics.

This should be its own thread: "Write lyrics to Eve"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on November 27, 2018, 06:58:46 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

Alright I'll play:

1. I completely agree
2. I agree somewhat, not all ballads are bad but they are not where DT shines
3. He is good but no better or worse than anyone else in the band IMO. I feel like JP has more duds but that's only because he writes the most
4. Derek was terrible and is terrible, he was awful in the making of FII video, his stage presence was awful. (I may be biased due to the recent shenanigans with SoA)
5. I don't think that's why they got famous, but it does help. People I've spoke to about DT that have heard of them usually say something along the lines "I've heard of them, those dudes can shred!"
6. Longer the better
7. I think JP is the best fit for production, he has a pretty clear vision for the band
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 27, 2018, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 27, 2018, 10:25:20 AM
3.  I would consider KM to be the worst lyricist the band has had, with a few exceptions.  I'm with pg1067.  I've never really understood the "cult" that seems to worships KM's lyrics.

I would expect that The Cult of Mangini Lyrics is currently recruiting members in anticipation and have already decreed them the best ever with only a tiny sample size vs a John Petrucci or Mike Portnoy who have dozens of lyrics to form a nice bell curve.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 27, 2018, 08:47:55 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 27, 2018, 06:42:31 PM
Regarding This Is The Life...


There are certainly songs I like more, but I must say that TITL is a perfectly written song. One of their finest moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksQqoXVNTmI

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

EDIT:  I'm hoping this is OK to post since it was part of the official "create a lyric video" thing they did for this album back in the day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 28, 2018, 03:59:24 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 27, 2018, 04:36:44 PM
MP
The Mirror - Another bottom 5-10 DT song for me.  I assume it's a dime-a-dozen song about cocaine, which by 1994 was a tired subject.

Not sure if joking, but I'm saying this anyway.

It's about alcoholism, I see it as a sort of a prequel for 12-step suite. MP coming into terms with the fact that his drinking is getting out of hand, but he doesn't have the strength/know how to stop.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on November 28, 2018, 04:28:47 AM
Not necessarily just about alcoholism - addiction in general. While alcohol was the most obvious and apparent substance abuse, Lifting Shadows (the book) and inteviews does paint a picture of more general substance abuse of pills, weed and also coke. There's a line in there about the drum tech preparing lines behind the kit for MP to do inbetween songs. So while alcohol obviously was the biggest problem, it was not only that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 28, 2018, 06:48:01 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 27, 2018, 12:33:43 PM
Had KevMo remained in the band, I'm sure he would've contributed his fair share of clunkers just like everyone else.

Nah, he used very well the time he was in the band to do many of those..

Quote from: dream75 on November 27, 2018, 12:00:01 PM
The greatest era was from 92-99  :tup
The worst was 2002-2010  :tdwn

Funny, because if I had to play this, I would say the exact opposite.. Especially from 1989 (to include WDADU) up to 1997 (to exclude SFAM) is my least favorite era (as I usually say, the word "worst" and "DT" don't go together), basically because all the albums released within that time frame are my least favorite DT albums... and from 2002 to 2010 is the best era because those 5 are without a doubt their finest works to date..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on November 28, 2018, 07:09:15 AM
I'll have a go too -

Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

1. This is like asking who was the best James Bond or the best Doctor Who. The answer is the one you grew up with. For me, the best era was Images & Words through to SFAM. Yes, even FII. I've loved everything the band have done to various degrees, right up to The Astonishing, which was first and only DT that disappointed me.
2. The band can write brilliant ballads. They can also write pretty shoddy ones, and I agree, there's too many of the latter. Lyrically? That brings us on to...
3. KevMo was the best lyricist the band have had, agreed. However, I don't listen to DT for the lyrics, and I wouldn't say any of their lyrics are that strong.
4. Derek certainly brought a rock n' roll style to the band, that's true. I quite liked it, and much as I love Jordan, I do wish he'd play a little more like Derek at times. MP was so much the public face of the band that I feel they've lost a lot of what made them special without him - the current line-up don't seem quite as able or willing to connect with the fans as MP was.
5. I disagree, but I know what you mean. The retrospective setlists and all-seater venues, increased ticket prices and VIP packages do make the band seem like a nostalgia legacy band. It's only a matter of time before they're supporting The Eagles...
6. Some of their albums could use a little trimming. Most CD players have a programme feature that lets you programme out the tracks you may not be in the mood to listen to. Other playback technology is available.
7. I have no complaints with the production other than this need for everything to be louder than everything else, but that's a general trend in modern music and not restricted to DT. I'd like to see them work with an outside producer, purely because I'd like to see a bit of variety in there, but I understand they had bad experiences with outside producers, so I get why they don't. It's their decision, and I've no real problems with the sound JP is getting out of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Quote from: PetFish on November 27, 2018, 08:44:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 27, 2018, 10:25:20 AM
3.  I would consider KM to be the worst lyricist the band has had, with a few exceptions.  I'm with pg1067.  I've never really understood the "cult" that seems to worships KM's lyrics.

I would expect that The Cult of Mangini Lyrics is currently recruiting members in anticipation and have already decreed them the best ever with only a tiny sample size vs a John Petrucci or Mike Portnoy who have dozens of lyrics to form a nice bell curve.

Oh, certainly.  And the song he chose to write lyrics for is kinda out there and quirky, and generally pretty fitting with Mangini's personality.  Going forward, I predict that it will have had the effect of permanently shaping perceptions of Mangini as a lyricist.

Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
Is it possible they've been revealed through Inside Out's Instagram stories? I'm not on Instagram, so I can't tell.
Either that, or the titles of the videos on the 'fake' YouTube account are actually real?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 08:13:37 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM

Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.

By "revealed in the public domain", do you mean that the names have actually been revealed or confirmed to be titles?

Or are you saying that apart from the 4 songs mentioned in the RS interview, we can deduce the other four from careful analysis?

(Example: The other 4 songs are called "Distance over Time", "Don't be afraid of letting go", "Open your heart", "Be set free")
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 08:15:00 AM
Quote from: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 08:13:37 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM

Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.

By "revealed in the public domain", do you mean that the names have actually been revealed or confirmed to be titles?

Or are you saying that apart from the 4 songs mentioned in the RS interview, we can deduce the other four from careful analysis?

(Example: The other 4 songs are called "Distance over Time", "Don't be afraid of letting go", "Open your heart", "Be set free")

Bolded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
Is it possible they've been revealed through Inside Out's Instagram stories? I'm not on Instagram, so I can't tell.
Either that, or the titles of the videos on the 'fake' YouTube account are actually real?

May be late to the party but : which fake account? And 8 titles revealed?!?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 08:23:42 AM
Since there are a LOT of people on here who are REALLY good Internet detectives, I'll just leave it to you all to figure the rest out.  I won't say anything else.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Peace and Love on November 28, 2018, 08:24:27 AM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result

Could not disagree more. I heard this kind of point being made in the DOT interview #2 as well - "do you feel pressure to write a certain way because fans expect a million notes per hour from you" and I disagreed with that as well.

This is a band that wrote Vacant, Disappear, The Spirit Carries On, I Walk Beside You, The Bigger Picture... hell, The Astonishing.

I think they absolutely do not feel pressure to include gratituous solos and technicality in songs because they are "expected" from a circus act. When those parts exist, I think a major reason is simply that the band loves that style of music. Look at JR or JP's solo albums to see what they make outside of Dream Theater - it's highly technical.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 08:25:01 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
Is it possible they've been revealed through Inside Out's Instagram stories? I'm not on Instagram, so I can't tell.
Either that, or the titles of the videos on the 'fake' YouTube account are actually real?

May be late to the party but : which fake account? And 8 titles revealed?!?

There's a yt account that's been posting fake songs with reasonably plausible titles. "The Event Horizon" is the only one I reember
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on November 28, 2018, 08:25:44 AM
Quote from: noxon on November 28, 2018, 04:28:47 AM
Not necessarily just about alcoholism - addiction in general. While alcohol was the most obvious and apparent substance abuse, Lifting Shadows (the book) and inteviews does paint a picture of more general substance abuse of pills, weed and also coke. There's a line in there about the drum tech preparing lines behind the kit for MP to do inbetween songs. So while alcohol obviously was the biggest problem, it was not only that.

Oh, right. I didn't know MP used to do coke as well.

Weed on the other hand, well, that's almost given when talking about a young rock/metal musician.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
May be late to the party but : which fake account? And 8 titles revealed?!?
Right after the treasure hunt was solved and the 37-second snippet shared, a YouTube account with the name 'Dream Theater' and the same profile pic as the official account posted a few videos of what appeared to be new songs. The account seems to have been deleted.

And RE: the 8 titles, four of them have been revealed through the Rolling Stone article/interview. So, we have to discover the other four that have been revealed according to Bosk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 08:31:00 AM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
May be late to the party but : which fake account? And 8 titles revealed?!?
Right after the treasure hunt was solved and the 37-second snippet shared, a YouTube account with the name 'Dream Theater' and the same profile pic as the official account posted a few videos of what appeared to be new songs. The account seems to have been deleted.

And RE: the 8 titles, four of them have been revealed through the Rolling Stone article/interview. So, we have to discover the other four that have been revealed according to Bosk.

Thanks, Sebastian! I know the 4 revealed but the other 4 are a mystery. And, Bosky, you are such a TEASE!!! :angry: :biggrin:

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 28, 2018, 08:52:11 AM
People keep saying the nonsense of the"nostalgia act", having as only argument that their setlists are lately full of old songs... DUH, that's what every band in the world does, except maybe some bands that make the bold decision of performing the entire new album and nothing else... oh wait, why does that sound so familiar??!!...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SjundeInseglet on November 28, 2018, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 28, 2018, 08:52:11 AM
People keep saying the nonsense of the"nostalgia act", having as only argument that their setlists are lately full of old songs... DUH, that's what every band in the world does, except maybe some bands that make the bold decision of performing the entire new album and nothing else... oh wait, why does that sound so familiar??!!...

As long as DT keeps releasing new music on a regular basis and including a fair batch of new songs on the subsequent tour, there is no way you can call the band a "nostalgia act".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 09:30:29 AM
No song-titles in InsideOut's Instagram stories. :(
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 10:04:43 AM
Quote from: SjundeInseglet on November 28, 2018, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 28, 2018, 08:52:11 AM
People keep saying the nonsense of the"nostalgia act", having as only argument that their setlists are lately full of old songs... DUH, that's what every band in the world does, except maybe some bands that make the bold decision of performing the entire new album and nothing else... oh wait, why does that sound so familiar??!!...

As long as DT keeps releasing new music on a regular basis and including a fair batch of new songs on the subsequent tour, there is no way you can call the band a "nostalgia act".

Agreed. I Don't know why some will think that. They're far from being a nostalgia act.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
I don't think "some" will think that.  It isn't a reasonable conclusion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 10:14:43 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 10:11:09 AM
I don't think "some" will think that.  It isn't a reasonable conclusion.

I Don't mean anyone in particular, and I can't remember when, but I saw this opinion kind of emerge.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 10:17:02 AM
There comes a point with every long-standing band that they inevitably are called nostalgia. Dream Theater will get there. But they aren't there yet.

The first step is the past albums in their entirety thing. DT has done that, and is doing that. BUT, because they still regularly release music, and they support it live, they haven't crossed that threshold.

The next step is a noticeable long gap between new music, and touring on the "hits" (which for DT is sorta...lets tour on fan favorites, since we only have like one hit - ha ha ha).

The final step is noticing that the crowd is not getting any younger. DT isn't there yet by a long shot. Young metalheads and progheads keep coming. That's a good sign.

So for me, in how I evaluate it, DT has a long way to go yet before becoming nostalgia.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:14 AM
This is sort of an extension of your "next step," but to me, one of the most important factors is abandoning promotion of new music on tour, and putting out new music mainly (or solely) as an excuse to tour on the hits/fan-favorites.  That's probably the biggest factor for me:  when a band either stops making new music altogether or does make new music, but clearly doesn't care about promoting it and realizes the fans they are catering to don't care either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 10:17:02 AM


The next step is a noticeable long gap between new music, and touring on the "hits" (which for DT is sorta...lets tour on fan favorites, since we only have like one hit - ha ha ha).



January 2016 to February 2019 is actually the longest gap in DT history, and this was done while touring on full Images and Words. I'm not saying we're completely in Step 2, but we're almost there
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 10:17:02 AM

The next step is a noticeable long gap between new music, and touring on the "hits" (which for DT is sorta...lets tour on fan favorites, since we only have like one hit - ha ha ha).



January 2016 to February 2019 is actually the longest gap in DT history, and this was done while touring on full Images and Words. I'm not saying we're completely in Step 2, but we're almost there

Not at all, since they were touring constantly during that time, most of that time being touring almost exclusively on new material.  One 3-year gap filled by promoting the last new album doesn't even remotely qualify as being "almost" to step 2. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 10:17:02 AM

The next step is a noticeable long gap between new music, and touring on the "hits" (which for DT is sorta...lets tour on fan favorites, since we only have like one hit - ha ha ha).



January 2016 to February 2019 is actually the longest gap in DT history, and this was done while touring on full Images and Words. I'm not saying we're completely in Step 2, but we're almost there

Not at all, since they were touring constantly during that time, most of that time being touring almost exclusively on new material.  One 3-year gap filled by promoting the last new album doesn't even remotely qualify as being "almost" to step 2.

Yep, they were touring for TA during that time span. Maybe rab7 hated the album so much he forgot it as well as the tour following? :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 28, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 10:17:02 AM


The next step is a noticeable long gap between new music, and touring on the "hits" (which for DT is sorta...lets tour on fan favorites, since we only have like one hit - ha ha ha).



January 2016 to February 2019 is actually the longest gap in DT history, and this was done while touring on full Images and Words. I'm not saying we're completely in Step 2, but we're almost there

DT is not in any of these "steps".. That was indeed their longest gap between albums, but they released a double album... And they aren't 40 minute long each one (like BTBAM and other bands are doing and like most bands have always done actually).. You had more than TWO hours of music in there, so the 3 years gap is relative..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 10:40:49 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on November 28, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
Maybe rab7 hated the album so much he forgot it as well as the tour following? :lol

Haha I am firmly in the "I loved The Astonishing" camp.

I was misguided in trying to find meaning in their long break between albums. I have since been thoroughly refuted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 11:23:01 AM
re: Steps

This is just how I personally sort of gauge whether a band fits into that "nostalgia" category or not. It's obviously just personal preference. Not saying DT SHOULD be viewed in this manner. Its just how I evaluate it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: Samsara on November 28, 2018, 11:23:01 AM
re: Steps

This is just how I personally sort of gauge whether a band fits into that "nostalgia" category or not. It's obviously just personal preference. Not saying DT SHOULD be viewed in this manner. Its just how I evaluate it.

But given how the terms "nostalgia band" is primarily used, your "steps" pretty objectively fit that meaning.  And there's clearly a difference between a band doing a "nostalgia tour" and being a "nostalgia act."  DT has done the former, clearly.  Many, many bands that have been around for a long period of time and have particular landmark albums have done as well.  But for reasons you mentioned, unless that becomes the primary focus of the band, they aren't a "nostalgia act." 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on November 28, 2018, 11:37:17 AM
I fail to find any logical reason to call a band three years removed from a concept DOUBLE album (and a new one coming out of the oven) a "nostalgia act".

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 28, 2018, 01:56:17 PM
After this tour, I really hope they decide not to do anniversaries any more. It would be nice to finally see a set with no idea as to what would be played.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 28, 2018, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 28, 2018, 01:56:17 PM
After this tour, I really hope they decide not to do anniversaries any more. It would be nice to finally see a set with no idea as to what would be played.

True and with three tours in a row of the US playing entire albums, I think it's due to shake things up next time around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 28, 2018, 02:32:14 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 28, 2018, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 28, 2018, 01:56:17 PM
After this tour, I really hope they decide not to do anniversaries any more. It would be nice to finally see a set with no idea as to what would be played.

True and with three tours in a row of the US playing entire albums, I think it's due to shake things up next time around.

I was hoping they'd do that this tour. Then we'd likely would've have gotten TGP, Octavarium, The Killing Hand, Surrender to Reason in one show.

I can see why they would do scenes. But I'd rather have a set of different songs as Anniversary shows have lost their charm for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
God! They've been there for 2 weeks! :D

Nice titles! I really like the one by Mike.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
Nice titles! I really like the one by Mike.

Yes.  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 28, 2018, 02:59:21 PM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 07:55:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, there are now as many as 8 song titles that have been revealed in the public domain.
God! They've been there for 2 weeks! :D

Nice titles! I really like the one by Mike.

(https://www.boogordoctor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/uparrow-share-thanks.png)

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 03:00:58 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on November 28, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
Nice titles! I really like the one by Mike.

Yes.  :D

Is there a reason that this was never discovered by anyone two weeks ago when it was posted? Or why y'all are trying to keep it under wraps (I get the vibe that noxon does not want this article discovered)?

Or is this an epilogue to the Treasure Hunt to get us to become better at googling?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on November 28, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
It's no worries, it just ruins a bit of the fun of trying to discover the song title, that's all ;) The article itself is a press release, but I've not seen ANYONE else post it yet, so I am not going to give it out juuuust yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 03:04:04 PM
No, there's nothing wrong with it being discovered.  We just want someone who doesn't have inside info to find it on their own, that's all.

EDIT:  What Noxon said.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 28, 2018, 03:22:12 PM
I think I found something :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on November 28, 2018, 03:24:13 PM
Well, I guess I'll just have to wait. I suck at searching for that sort of thing. ;p
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 28, 2018, 03:32:35 PM
Well, I'll share it, and really hope the mods don't kill me for it (they said it's ok, after all) :eek

It took me a long while to find it: https://www.myjaxchamber.com/news/2018/11/14/member-news/the-distance-over-time-tour-celebrating-20-years-of-scenes-from-a-memory/

Important parts to read:
Quote
Album opener “Untethered Angel” commences with ominous clean guitar before ramping up into a hypnotic and hard-hitting riff that gives way to a sweeping and soaring hook. Heavily employing Hammond X5, Rudess locks into an “organ-and-guitar” call-and-response with Petrucci, evoking classic prog while charting new territory all the same.

“John has some of the most tastefully crafted leads in the business, so that forces me to step up my game to the max,” Rudess goes on. “It opened up a different avenue for us to trade back and forth.”

“Subject-wise, it’s about me seeing that a lot of people, especially our youth, are afraid to take their lives in certain directions because of fear,” explains Petrucci. “They have fear of the unknown, fear of what other people think, and fear of not being good enough. So, the song urges letting go of yourself, not letting fear win, and untethering yourself from the feeling of fear that stops you from doing things.”

The ten-minute “At Wit’s End” swings from sharp shredding into a thick groove as LaBrie paints an intense portrait of the aftermath of abuse.

“When women have been violated, they suffer from PTSD,” says the singer. “They can never really view themselves as the same people, because for all intents and purposes, they aren’t. It creates a lot of divide in relationships. It can be impossible for couples to overcome. In a lot of instances, they don’t make it, and they break apart. In the song, the woman is at her wit’s end, and the man is assuring her they can get through it.”

“Barstool Warrior” offers up an intimate slice of small town lore with cinematic lyrics as “Out of Reach” sees the band stretch its wings with a poetic ballad with lyrics penned by LaBrie. The haunting and maddening “Room 137” marks the first time Mangini contributed lyrics to a Dream Theater song, while everything culminates on the epic-sounding “Pale Blue Dot,” which “highlights Carl Sagan’s meaningful reflection on humankind’s fleeting nature and our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to cherish the ‘Pale Blue Dot’ which is Earth.” as Petrucci puts it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on November 28, 2018, 03:35:29 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 28, 2018, 03:32:35 PM
*snip*

Haha I've been debating whether or not to post this link or just leave a hint on how to find it, but you've beaten me to the punch.

It was pretty hard. I figured anything that would have extra track names would also include the name of one of the released track names.

So I looked up how to google results that also had specific words in them (ex. "Awake" will get you a billion results, but "Awake" [function]"Dream Theater" will get you only results that also have Dream Theater).

In this case, "Dream Theater Barstool Warrior" wasn't enough for some reason. You need to do ["DREAM THEATER" AROUND(100) "BARSTOOL WARRIOR"]
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 28, 2018, 03:37:40 PM
:bosk1:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on November 28, 2018, 03:38:18 PM
Oh, then I was on the right track. I searched for Barstool Warrior but I didn't know how to tweak my search like that. xD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 28, 2018, 03:40:01 PM
I searched for atricles containing "Dream Theater Distance Over Time" of the last month in chronological order and checked one by one :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 28, 2018, 04:48:17 PM
I need a single soon. These names are all sounding neat and different. Room 137 and Pale Blue Dot caught my eye.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on November 29, 2018, 03:07:25 AM
Pale Blue Dot sounds like a Sound of Contact song (it's on their excellent Dimensionaut album).

I wasn't saying DT are a nostalgia band, I was saying they are starting to display some of the signs of a nostalgia band. Bands like Rush and Iron Maiden have successfully alternated new album tours with "classic legacy"  tours, so the definition of what I'd consider a nostalgia band is pretty fluid.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: noxon on November 29, 2018, 03:14:31 AM
How about we keep the discussions about the album in the appropriate thread?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 10:16:24 AM
Yeah, don't know why we brought it here.. :huh:

Quote from: The Curious Orange on November 29, 2018, 03:07:25 AM
I wasn't saying DT are a nostalgia band, I was saying they are starting to display some of the signs of a nostalgia band. Bands like Rush and Iron Maiden have successfully alternated new album tours with "classic legacy"  tours, so the definition of what I'd consider a nostalgia band is pretty fluid.

Ok, so one more time, the discussion was really more about semantics than anything else..

But anyways, I personally don't think that they're showing any signs of becoming a nostalgia band either.. They've played before the entire SFAM in different countries way after the actual tour of the album.. Now they're just doing it for all the countries where they'll play... along with some songs of the new album (maybe the whole album!, who knows, depends on the length of the album) and some others.. Besides, they have NEVER made a single tour with only a classic album on it.. Even in the IW&B tour, you still had a lot of other songs in the setlist (including songs from their latest album and from recent albums too).. So I definitely don't think so..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 29, 2018, 10:26:37 AM
Another thing that is common with these so called "nostalgia bands", is that in their live shows the recent albums are all but forgotten when the tour is over. Many bands play the obligatory 2-3 songs maximum from a new record and then it's all old songs, and then the new album is forgotten for the next tour. It's not like DT totally forgot that anything after Six Degrees exists when it comes to live shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 29, 2018, 10:36:34 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 29, 2018, 10:26:37 AM
Another thing that is common with these so called "nostalgia bands", is that in their live shows the recent albums are all but forgotten when the tour is over. Many bands play the obligatory 2-3 songs maximum from a new record and then it's all old songs, and then the new album is forgotten for the next tour. It's not like DT totally forgot that anything after Six Degrees exists when it comes to live shows.

And of the old songs they choose to play, they're the hits/singles. I wish those bands would be daring and risk the tour playing nothing but rare/deep cuts, leaving their one biggest hit for the encore. And to be fair, maybe switch it out every stop or other show.

I know, no major band is willing to do that. But I so wish one would just do that. I guess I want that because I enjoy seeing bands live I've never heard of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 29, 2018, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 26, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 26, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
(and none of the following is directed at any of you in particular)

..... Because we're really seeing the band after all.. I mean, and I've been wanted to say this for a very long time, I think criticism against James, besides being very excessive and unfair, is directly fallacious.. I think that if we like a certain band, therefore we should go to the shows to see the entire band, right?... not just the singer.. And if we're in the mood to criticize a band as if we were a jury of music specialists rather than fans, then we should criticize the whole band and not just focus on destroying one of the members.. Much less when it comes to the hardest instrument to execute correctly (the voice) and when it comes to one of the most demanding bands in terms of that same instrument... and when we're not talking about any young singer precisely, ETC...

I don't understand your position on this. Why is it fallacious to criticize one member in a band? If that band member is always fucking up (and I'm not saying LaBrie is guilty of this) then that band member can bring the whole performance down. Let's say the guitar player is terrible but the rest of the band is amazing. Why should the talents of the rest of the band shield the guitarist from criticism?

I added many layers in that comment, maybe that's what's a bit confusing.. But I partially agree with your comment..

It doesn't seem so bad to me that someone criticizes a single faulty member, if that someone is dedicated to criticize bands instead of listening and enjoying the show.. But if, like many of us, you only go there to enjoy the show, as many of us in fact do then I don't understand why that same person would criticize any member after having seen a couple of youtube videos that he didn't like of the very same show (and I know some cases first hand).. Get the difference?..

Anyways, I'm not saying that people can't do that.. They do it all the time.. I just found it to be contradictory and mean, especially to the singer, which is undeservedly the most judged everytime..

I think I get what you're saying. If I went to see a band and enjoyed the performance, then it wouldn't make sense to say how bad the band was on a YouTube video. I wonder how many LaBrie detractors dislike him after actually going out to see the band multiple times rather than just watching a bunch of online videos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 04:39:27 PM
Exactly.. And, on top of that, the point I was trying to made was that the people who likes to judge (whether seeing the show in person or in a video) always focus on the vocalist and almost never in any of the rest of the band.. And they even focus more on the vocalist of a prog band, when singing it's actually more demanding and exhausting in prog than other styles, and especially hard in Dream Theater..

Not saying we should criticize the other members either (well, I don't think we can criticize much those four guys anyways), but I've always just found that to be very infortunate and unfair..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 29, 2018, 04:44:05 PM
It's perfectly fair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 07:13:31 PM
No, it's not..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:15:42 PM
Criticizing a singer is fair, as long the criticism is actual criticism and not just "LOL THEY SUCK."

The fact that you don't think your favorite musicians should be criticized is irrelevant.

Daniel Gildenlow is my favorite singer. LOVE him. But if someone sees him live or sees a video and says he sounds off key, or whatever else, that's fair. Even if what he's doing is EXTREMELY difficult.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 07:38:46 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:15:42 PM
Criticizing a singer is fair, as long the criticism is actual criticism and not just "LOL THEY SUCK."

Yes, I was talking exactly about that type of comments, and similars..

Anyway, you're missing the point.. I'm not (only) saying is unfair to simply judge like that someone who's representing -or trying to represent- some form of art for the whole people to enjoy! (I mean, I can't even...), BUT that it is unfair to focus always in the singer.. Like he has to be the band's most perfect performer.. Where does that come from?..

He's precisely the one who has the most difficult task at any show.. Not only to sing good, but doing it wihtout any material reference (like the other members have with their instruments), being the one interacting with the audiencie (a thing that takes him away time that should be used to recover the air in order to strain the throat as little as possible), etc, etc.. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
Huh? Well no one will disagree that saying "LOL THEY SUCK" is unfair. But that wasn't even being discussed.

If people focus on James it's because he's the dude screwing up. That's just what's happening right now.

Look at Metallica. They all get criticism, but who gets the most? Lars and Kirk. Cause they're the ones screwing it all up.

People criticize the people who are messing up. If it's the singer, then it's the singer. The only person who might be safe is the bassist since I doubt anyone can hear him/her anyway in most rock/metal bands.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 29, 2018, 07:53:31 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 07:38:46 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:15:42 PM
Criticizing a singer is fair, as long the criticism is actual criticism and not just "LOL THEY SUCK."

Yes, I was talking exactly about that type of comments, and similars..

Anyway, you're missing the point.. I'm not (only) saying is unfair to simply judge like that someone who's representing -or trying to represent- some form of art for the whole people to enjoy! (I mean, I can't even...), BUT that it is unfair to focus always in the singer.. Like he has to be the band's most perfect performer.. Where does that come from?..

He's precisely the one who has the most difficult task at any show.. Not only to sing good, but doing it wihtout any material reference (like the other members have with their instruments), being the one interacting with the audiencie (a thing that takes him away time that should be used to recover the air in order to strain the throat as little as possible), etc, etc..

I thought I had understood you before but now it seems like you're saying one should never criticize anyone doing art especially if their role is particularly difficult?  ??? Are there any circumstances where you think criticizing a singer is fair? Not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to understand your view.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
Huh? Well no one will disagree that saying "LOL THEY SUCK" is unfair. But that wasn't even being discussed.

Try to not take all what I say literally, maybe that way my comments might not upset you the way they appear to upset you.. I mean, yeah, that was never discussed because what I said was never understood right.. I'm still yet to "discuss" my original comment with anyone..

Quote from: Adami on November 29, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
If people focus on James it's because he's the dude screwing up. That's just what's happening right now.

First, he doesn't "screw up" anything.. What did he "screw up"??... Missing one note?.. Having to change some melodies because is not humanly possible to reach the ridiculous notes and melodies he had to record when he was 30 years old and before the poisoning food accident?.. He obviously does make mistakes, I don't know how ANY guy even trying to sing James' parts would not make them!.. But, precisely, my point is: does JP not make mistakes in some of his solos too?.. Heck, he even miss some chords from time to time (and which is perfectly understandable, again, considering the music they play)..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on November 29, 2018, 08:09:06 PM
Well, I'm going to back out. Your replies are becoming far too emotionally charged for what should be a very simple discussion. If you'd like to discuss calmly and civilly, cool. But I'm not an emotional debater, and I honestly do not have an emotional investment in any of this.

This is clearly a very important belief you have, so have at it.


I'll continue to criticize James, or anyone else, if I feel the desire to. Which is rare in general.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 08:19:22 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 29, 2018, 07:53:31 PM
Are there any circumstances where you think criticizing a singer is fair?

That depends on what you understand by "criticism" and "fairness".. If you check one comment above, you'll see I clarify I was only talking about people (whether in social media or real life) that complains about a given artist just because.. If I wasn't clear enough in the first comment, then by now that should be settled..

So, I was talking only about those kind of comments, which are all over the places in the case of JLB.. That's what's unfair, for the reasons I already commented.. Not ONLY because he has the most difficult task or because he sings in f**ing Dream Theater!, but because he's an artist, and should have at least some respect from the people who actually call themselves "fans" of the very same band he's in..

I'm ok with the whole rest of the circumstances regarding criticism.. But, sadly, they're not so common..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 29, 2018, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 08:19:22 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 29, 2018, 07:53:31 PM
Are there any circumstances where you think criticizing a singer is fair?

That depends on what you understand by "criticism" and "fairness".. If you check one comment above, you'll see I clarify I was only talking about people (whether in social media or real life) that complains about a given artist just because.. If I wasn't clear enough in the first comment, then by now that should be settled..

So, I was talking only about those kind of comments, which are all over the places in the case of JLB.. That's what's unfair, for the reasons I already commented.. Not ONLY because he has the most difficult task or because he sings in f**ing Dream Theater!, but because he's an artist, and should have at least some respect from the people who actually call themselves "fans" of the very same band he's in..

I'm ok with the whole rest of the circumstances regarding criticism.. But, sadly, they're not so common..

I get it now but I have to say I agree more with Adami's take on this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 29, 2018, 08:33:17 PM
If you are an artist and your artistic undertaking is proving difficult to the point at which you cannot perform at a reasonably high level, you need to do something else.

This isn't me saying James should quit singing. I hope he sings for as long as Mick Jagger sings, or whatever you call it when he opens his mouth and words come out in e semi-melodious manner. He should stop singing anything he cannot sing well, and by well I mean at a very highly proficient bar the band has set (rightly or wrongly) for themselves.

I think I agree with Adami. This is like the 3rd time this week!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 09:03:18 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 29, 2018, 08:09:06 PM
Well, I'm going to back out. Your replies are becoming far too emotionally charged for what should be a very simple discussion. If you'd like to discuss calmly and civilly, cool. But I'm not an emotional debater, and I honestly do not have an emotional investment in any of this.

Don't know why my replies came across as being "emotionally charged"?.. I'm calmed, is just my way of writing.. But ok, you're free to do as you wish..

This is a controvesial thread after all, and I do get my opinion is being read as controversial... that's kind of the whole point..

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 29, 2018, 08:33:17 PM
If you are an artist and your artistic undertaking is proving difficult to the point at which you cannot perform at a reasonably high level, you need to do something else.

This isn't me saying James should quit singing. I hope he sings for as long as Mick Jagger sings, or whatever you call it when he opens his mouth and words come out in e semi-melodious manner. He should stop singing anything he cannot sing well, and by well I mean at a very highly proficient bar the band has set (rightly or wrongly) for themselves.

Says who?..


Who are you, or me, or anyone at all to establish a certain artist and, in this particular case, a singer (because he is those two things although you don't seem to be very convinced about it) must only be perfect at doing what he does, like singing in this case, or otherwise not doing it at all?..

Even more, when you know (because I think everyone knows this) that James is also loved and appreciated as he is for many of us (which includes the current members of the band!).. Again: I'm not saying he shouldn't be criticize like this (like you're doing, and like many others criticize him even worse) just because I like him... But for this very reason -the like or dislike of his performances are VERY subjective- you cannot say what he should do or what he must sing just because you don't like him (or don't like how he sings whatever sections you're referring to)..

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 29, 2018, 09:17:07 PM
I was coming it at from the point that everyone who works a job should perform at a reasonable level. Maybe I should have omitted the "high" part. Fair enough. If you are flipping burgers for Derek while he composes his next (and by next I mean first) masterpiece, you should do a reasonable job at it, if you are expecting patrons to frequent your establishment. So part of it is just work ethic. I never said James should be perfect. No one is, in any industry. But if you aren't good at it, no matter how hard you try, maybe burger-flipping isn't your thing.

Yes, art is subjective, but it is not up to the viewer/listener/reader to determine the quality of the work/performance? They are the ones experiencing the art. I cannot say what an artist should do, or how he should do it. You are correct on that point. But I feel it reasonable to posit that one might not be performing their art well, just as Derek can complain his burger wasn't cooked well.

Not sure what I am arguing. i do not feel that strongly about this. I love James. I love his performances. I think he should re-work some of DT's early material for live shows, because the performances have the potential to fall below what I would consider a reasonable level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 29, 2018, 09:48:39 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on November 29, 2018, 09:17:07 PM
I cannot say what an artist should do, or how he should do it. You are correct on that point. But I feel it reasonable to posit that one might not be performing their art well

Exactly.. This "position" is precisely the subjective part.. We, as an audiencie, can judge if something is bad or not for ourselves; yes, we can, and actually we do it almost all the time.. A very different thing is saying things like "he should stop singing anything he cannot sing well"..

He doesn't sing well for you?.. Ok, fair, that's up to you to decide.. But saying that because of that the guy has to do something about it, or that he is not an artist at all, feels very possesive and shamelessly unfair.. Then again, I'm not even talking about you particularly (you're saying you do mostly like his performances after all) but about the hatred we all know there is against him.. That's not fair.. And that's what I've been saying all along..

To put it more simple: you don't like an artist?, that's ok.. But he's still an artist, and no one else but him should decide whatever he wants to do with his life..



Having said that, we can fall even deeper into the discussion by realizing that what should be considered "art" it's largely subjective too ..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 29, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 30, 2018, 05:52:41 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 29, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on November 30, 2018, 06:29:59 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 30, 2018, 05:52:41 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 29, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it :lol
everyone's perception and opinion of what the "greatest" era of DT is is vastly different I would think (mine is 2011-present btw)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ToT-147 on November 30, 2018, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on November 30, 2018, 06:29:59 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 30, 2018, 05:52:41 AM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on November 29, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: deggs37 on November 26, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
I'm not really sure what's controversial anymore as an opinion, but lets see if I can try. Sorry if I am repeating some, I haven't gone through the entire thread.

1. The greatest era of DT was from 99 - 07
2. This band is terrible at writing ballads - lyrically - (except wait for sleep), and for some reason likes to include way too many.
3. Kevin Moore was the only good lyricist in the band, everyone else has been mediocre with occasional moments of greatness.
4. Derek Sherinian and Mike Portnoy brought a lot of personality balance to the band. That "Rock and Roll swagger" infamously mentioned in the Sons of Apollo teasers. I may still think Derek is a douche, but he was right. Todays DT feels like a band of dorks.
5. I hate that DT became famous for their technicallity, seems like they have been shoehorned into a circus act as a result
6. The albums are too damn long. There are always sections of filler that should have been omitted. DT would be better served with 30 - 45 minute albums.
7. Petrucci and Portnoy were never good with production, and without Portnoy it has gotten worse.

With all that said, I'm still a huge DT fan and cannot wait for Distance Over Time

I hate everything about your opinion except the part about being a huge fan and being excited for D/T

Nailed it :lol
everyone's perception and opinion of what the "greatest" era of DT is is vastly different I would think (mine is 2011-present btw)

Agreed.. And that's because there are dozens and dozens of combinations of "DT eras" in the first place...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 14, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on January 14, 2019, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 14, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.

I don't know about that one, but I know TA had a ton of Plagal Cadence
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 14, 2019, 02:23:09 PM
Had to look that one up (i.e. listen on Youtube) and yeah, that one very much too. I'm wondering whether this was an outcome of JR composing a lot of the tunes on the piano, where you would make those cadences a conscious decision (vs on the guitar where I feel it's not as theory-driven).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on January 15, 2019, 02:29:13 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 14, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
BTW, has anybody noticed how over the last few albums DT has made increasing use of this very specific type of cadence? It's a "classic" cadence, but I feel they never used to use it as much as they do now. In FITL an example is at 3:45, where the chords do a I/V -> V/V -> I/I transition. I don't know the exact chords in FITL, but in C major this transition would be C/G-> G/G -> C/C. They used that type of transition a LOT in TA also.

Definitely noticeable, especially on TA. Let's see if the pattern is obvious on the new album as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on January 15, 2019, 02:49:03 PM
Here's a controversial opinion I have.

I don't think we will get another stellar album release from DT. The 2 songs released for D/T don't do much for me. Nothing stands out and makes me go "wow!" like Awake, SFAM, I&W & ACOS did for me.

I absolutely hate having this opinion as DT is my favorite band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 15, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
Well, after WDADU, we've had 12 in a row, so I don't see any reason to think this one will buck the pattern.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on January 15, 2019, 03:40:57 PM
Whoah, so you have almost 20 years worth of disappointment  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 15, 2019, 04:07:02 PM
For real though, there are precious few artists who can produce albums deep into their career that can rival the albums that brought them to fame.

That said, it's interesting to look at RYM ratings of albums and identify the albums that "bucked the trend" and had a higher rating than the previous one. Those were IAW, SFAM and BCSL. The time gap between them was 7 years, 10 years, and so far 10 years again. I think there's a high chance D/T will buck the trend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 15, 2019, 04:09:16 PM
Yeah, I think I've come to terms with the fact that we probably won't get another DT album on the level of 6DOIT or SFAM. But that doesn't mean none of their records going forward won't be worthwhile. Even if they out 30, I'll listen to em all. I've just learned to keep my expectations in check.

And besides, if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Anxiety35 on January 16, 2019, 09:25:08 AM
As a band, it's tough to do one record that's a masterpiece. Dream Theater have produced at least 4. I enjoy the other albums a lot, but I'm wondering & hoping if they have one more masterpiece in them. I'm not so sure they do.

Think about this. I started being a fan of DT when Awake was released (thanks to Headbangers Ball on MTV for crying out loud.) I was a senior in high school and 17 years old. Now I'm 41 years old. Much has changed in me over the last 24 years. Maybe it's not DT but maybe it's me?

I am looking forward to hearing the rest of the new record. I'm still a fan and will always be.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 16, 2019, 09:47:02 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 15, 2019, 04:07:02 PM


That said, it's interesting to look at RYM ratings of albums and identify the albums that "bucked the trend" and had a higher rating than the previous one. Those were IAW, SFAM and BCSL. The time gap between them was 7 years, 10 years, and so far 10 years again. I think there's a high chance D/T will buck the trend.

Because The Astonishing was so divisive and doesn't have a good overall score on most sites (seems like it one of the bottom 2 or 3 rated DT albums everywhere online where there are numerical ratings), that seems like a safe bet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Probably some have (partially) been said before, but:

-I find WDADU to be a better album (lyrically and musically) than SFAM, which is in the bottom 4 fav. albums for me.

-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)

-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums

-About BC&SL, TCOT is in my top 3 DT songs, specially the Happy Holidays version

-TA is my 3rd favourite album by DT, after Awake and I&W

-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 16, 2019, 12:42:05 PM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)

This is quite spicy indeed.

I can half agree with you on the stance of "SFAM is a great album, but not a great concept album". Not sure if you'd agree with that. Listening now. I do find that the story it tells is pretty bare thin and not so compelling, but the incredible songwriting all throughout the record is what keeps me coming back to it.

Quote
-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

I would agree with this, though I would take Portnoy's production with DT over Petrucci's any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on January 16, 2019, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

I agree with the first one. I wouldn’t go as far as saying he isn’t a good drummer, but he’s definitely waaaaaay overrated, repetitive and not interesting as a drummer anymore. His drumming in the early DT years, however, was highly important and influential to the whole prog metal genere. Nowadays, though, and for the last decade at least, he just overplays, plays the same fills on every song/album he does and for whatever reason thinks that more splash cymbals = better drumming.

About the production, let’s keep in mind that we’re comparing Petrucci producing alone vs MP and JP producing. We should hear an album only produced by MP to see the real contrast.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DP_Gumby on January 16, 2019, 02:08:50 PM
I enjoy FII, WDADU, SC and BC&SL just as much as I&W, SFAM, Awake or any of the other albums they've released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on January 16, 2019, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers.

I think that's pretty universally accepted rather than controversial. DOT is sounding better thus far tho. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
I think it depends on your definition of masterpiece (edit: and tastes, of course) really, because for me TA is clearly a masterpiece, DT's most ambitious record easily and up there with SFAM.

Sure, people might not like it and that's fine, but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 16, 2019, 05:19:03 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 16, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 16, 2019, 05:19:03 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

What?  You mean I should take blabbermouth article comments seriously too?!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 05:37:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 16, 2019, 05:19:03 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

I hope this is sarcasm
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 16, 2019, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 05:37:11 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 16, 2019, 05:19:03 PM
Quote from: Darkstarshades on January 16, 2019, 04:20:34 PM
but saying stuff like it's a lazy effort or something like that is just so mindblowingly retarded it's literally discrediting a clear effort that just happened to be not everyone's cup of tea.

You say that as if you have never read any comments under DT youtube videos and noticed that DT fans have some of the most "constructive" criticisms in the metal music industry.

I hope this is sarcasm

No I'm definitely 100% serious.  :facepalm:
Also Mangini is a robot and sucks and Portnoy is the soul and heart of DT!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: robbob on January 16, 2019, 08:32:07 PM
Not sure how controversial this is but i'm getting a little tired of the Metal side of DT. JP is awesome but some of the metal riffing is getting a little stale. And I love me some good metal, Systematic Chaos is one my favorite albums to listen to.

Hadn't listened to much older DT in a while, but recently pulled out Scarred, Hells Kitchen/Lines in The Sand, Trail of Tears. Damn I love that stuff, wish they would incorporate more of that Prog Rock style back into their music and a little less Metal.

UPDATE - Trial of Tears (not Trail, lol)
And, some may say TA was definitely more rock than Metal. But, that album does not do a whole lot for me, only a few tracks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 17, 2019, 08:45:10 AM
Um...there's been PLENTY of metal in every single album they have released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Darkstarshades on January 17, 2019, 01:38:41 PM
It would be a good idea to sum all the time TA has of "metal" and see how many of their previous records it exceeds  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 17, 2019, 04:29:49 PM
Quote from: robbob on January 16, 2019, 08:32:07 PM
Not sure how controversial this is but i'm getting a little tired of the Metal side of DT. JP is awesome but some of the metal riffing is getting a little stale. And I love me some good metal, Systematic Chaos is one my favorite albums to listen to.

To say that you're getting tired of something isn't controversial, but it's awfully inconsistent to say that you don't like DT's metal side and say that SC (an album whose most prominent song is "The Dark Eternal Night") is one of your favorite albums.


Quote from: robbob on January 16, 2019, 08:32:07 PM
Hadn't listened to much older DT in a while, but recently pulled out Scarred, Hells Kitchen/Lines in The Sand, Trail of Tears. Damn I love that stuff, wish they would incorporate more of that Prog Rock style back into their music and a little less Metal.

So...stuff like "Breaking All Illusions," "The Looking Glass" and "Illumination Theory"?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 17, 2019, 04:36:35 PM
I'm hard pressed to come up with more than a couple or three songs per album that are not metal (excluding The Astonishing, which is harder to classify). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 17, 2019, 04:49:11 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 17, 2019, 04:36:35 PM
I'm hard pressed to come up with more than a couple or three songs per album that are not metal (excluding The Astonishing, which is harder to classify).

Yup.  "Scarred," "Lines in the Sand," "Hells Kitchen" and "Trial of Tears" are all "metal" songs.  "Scarred" even had a heavy riffing segment
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on January 17, 2019, 04:50:29 PM
Off the top of my head, I'd say SFAM has a few songs that aren't metal.

Regression, Through my words, Through her eyes, One Last Time, Spirit Carries on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on January 18, 2019, 03:53:31 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Probably some have (partially) been said before, but:
OK, I'll bite: 
Quote
-I find WDADU to be a better album (lyrically and musically) than SFAM, which is in the bottom 4 fav. albums for me.
That's a bold statement. I think WDADU is an overlooked album, it's certainly better than it gets credit for, but SFAM is a top-tier DT album for me, and WDADU kind of... isn't. 
Quote
-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)
Yeah, it's certainly not the best concept album ever, but it is a serious effort.
Quote
-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums
I actually agree with this. I'd rather have metal songs or songs with a metal section on a diverse album than an entire metal album. I've never really thought of SC as a metal album, mind.
Quote
-About BC&SL, TCOT is in my top 3 DT songs, specially the Happy Holidays version
I also love that song. It's stunning. 
Quote
-TA is my 3rd favourite album by DT, after Awake and I&W
Yeah, people either love it or hate it. Personally I hate it, but I can see why others love it, and I respect your opinion. 
Quote
-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.
I've said this before - MP was a great drummer when the band started. One of the best. But he got lazy, especially by the time of his last 2 albums, and his drumming went from being exciting and fresh to being often sloppy, uninspired and boring to listen to. Plus, of course, younger and better drummers came up and he just failed to raise his game. I just wish the band had employed MM to play drums and kept MP on in a management role to deal with the fans. 
Quote
-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.
Kind of agree, but as I've said before, this "everything louder than everything else" thing is a plague on modern music, and not just restricted to DT. Given the nature of their music and their fanbase, I do wish we could get a proper audiophile production out of the band. TA was actually the closest they've come, despite the fact I don't like that album, the production is first rate.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on January 18, 2019, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:51:24 AM
Quote from: rab7 on January 18, 2019, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

Right, and I don't think that argument can successfully be made.  There is simply no way ToT was as important to the band as I&W and Scenes when you consider what those two albums did for the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on January 18, 2019, 08:55:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:51:24 AM
Quote from: rab7 on January 18, 2019, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

when you consider what those two albums did for the band.

Not arguing for or against, but I think TOT brought a lot of fans that are really into the heavier side of metal, which influenced their decision to make much heavier tracks later on in the discography. Some people say that Portnoy was trying to steer the band too much to the heavier side, and I think this started because of TOT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 18, 2019, 09:04:52 AM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 18, 2019, 03:53:31 AM
I just wish the band had employed MM to play drums and kept MP on in a management role to deal with the fans.

LOL!  Hard to imagine how big of a train wreck that would have been.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: rab7 on January 18, 2019, 08:38:59 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 08:32:41 AM
Quote from: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 08:27:47 AM

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

Exactly. I would never argue that TOT was more important than Images or Scenes, but I think its lasting impact on their sound is just as significant. The modern metal side of DT was born with TOT and it has been, with some few exceptions, a major part of their sound ever since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 09:36:36 AM
The Glass Prison down??
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on January 18, 2019, 10:14:25 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 09:36:36 AM
The Glass Prison down??

Yeah, The Glass Prison is the catalyst to their metal side.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 18, 2019, 10:14:59 AM
EPIC outro is right. TOT wasn't more important to the band than I&W or SFAM, but the album really opened precedents, brought in a lot of fans and "changed everything" in a way. I'm not a big fan of this legacy, but I can't deny it.

Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 09:36:36 AM
The Glass Prison down??

TOT is a kind of enlargement of the vibe and musical ideias of TGP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EPIC Outro on January 18, 2019, 10:37:06 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on January 18, 2019, 10:14:59 AM
EPIC outro is right. TOT wasn't more important to the band than I&W or SFAM, but the album really opened precedents, brought in a lot of fans and "changed everything" in a way. I'm not a big fan of this legacy, but I can't deny it.

Quote from: KevShmev on January 18, 2019, 09:36:36 AM
The Glass Prison down??

TOT is a kind of enlargement of the vibe and musical ideias of TGP.

If The Glass Prison was a preview of things to come, than Train of Thought was pretty much Glass Prison: The Album lol.

But you are right. TGP was definitely the start of that new heaviness, but TOT took it to the max.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 18, 2019, 03:23:01 PM
Yea SDOIT was more experimental including that super heavy TGP, but TOT took that and made all the songs super heavy (minus the ballad of course). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on January 18, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
Quote from: The Curious Orange on January 18, 2019, 03:53:31 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on January 16, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums
I actually agree with this. I'd rather have metal songs or songs with a metal section on a diverse album than an entire metal album. I've never really thought of SC as a metal album, mind.
This isn't directed so much at you, Orange, but the more I think about it, the more I don't think BCaSL dserves to be lumped into the "metal album" category. I mean, yeah, ANtR, ARoP and TSF are (in general) metal songs, but Wither, TBoT and TCoT most certainly are not anymore metal than anything from SFaM on back - that's half the album. And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts. I mean, I get that BCaSL was more or less a continuation of SC in terms of general sound, but I would say it's decidedly less metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 18, 2019, 07:55:24 PM
I agree Scotty. I think calling SC and BC&SL metal albums is lazy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 22, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on January 18, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.  I think sometimes we get too hung up on trying to make things fit into neat boxes and divide things up.  DT has always been a metal band.  Yes, they do ballads.  And, yes, they have parts in most of their songs that are beautiful, mellow, or soft.  But it seems strange to me to try and classify them as not metal because of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on January 22, 2019, 10:31:24 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 22, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on January 18, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.

Case in point: pre-Heritage Opeth. Sometimes the mellow stuff makes it MORE metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on January 22, 2019, 11:17:41 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on January 22, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on January 18, 2019, 07:53:43 PM
And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.  I think sometimes we get too hung up on trying to make things fit into neat boxes and divide things up.  DT has always been a metal band.  Yes, they do ballads.  And, yes, they have parts in most of their songs that are beautiful, mellow, or soft.  But it seems strange to me to try and classify them as not metal because of that.
Right - but you're ignoring the rest of my post, that points out half of the album is not metal in the sense of say most of Train of Thought or stuff like Constant Motion and TDEN. The detail about ANtR just reinforces my point about why I don't think BCaSL should be labeled as a "metal album" in the same sense as ToT, or to a lesser degree, SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 03:16:46 PM
Isn't TCoT metal?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on January 22, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 03:16:46 PM
Isn't TCoT metal?
Not any more than anything pre-ToT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 22, 2019, 03:45:47 PM
I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that any pre-TA song by DT (limited to official releases) isn't "metal."  Only the degree of heaviness changes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on January 22, 2019, 03:53:22 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on January 22, 2019, 03:45:47 PM
I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that any pre-TA song by DT (limited to official releases) isn't "metal."  Only the degree of heaviness changes.

lol plenty of their songs aren't metal. Anna Lee isn't metal. Through her Eyes isn't metal. Etc. Etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on January 22, 2019, 03:59:00 PM
There are frustratingly few terms to describe different flavours of metal, somehow. This is surprising to me given how many well-understood sub-genres there are.

But DT are a metal band and always have been, however varied their style can be.

TOT, SC and BCSL all show the band often aiming for a slightly different flavour of metal than previously, tho. Heavier? Probably a little. More abrasive? Yeah, a bit. More straight-faced? Definitely.

I've said it before and will say it again. It didn't suit them and sounded like they were trying way too hard to sound tough/hard/edgy/street/real/whatever, imo.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful because I love the band but it wasn't a good look on them. I'm so delighted that phase ended with MPs departure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 22, 2019, 05:05:00 PM
I think this discussion can generate some very interesting questions.

Is Prog metal (the genre)  effectively a mix of heavy metal and progressive rock? Or merely a kind of metal that incorporated elements of progressive rock? ( like "neoclassical metal", which clearly incorporated elements of classical music, but is far from actually being a real blend of the two universes).

I think some bands are metal bands with some progressive influences (Symphony X). Others are bands that firmly follow the "style" of the subgenre Prog Metal, with all the clichés (most of the more current bands). And a few are actually able to make music that truly combines progressive elements with metal. Dream Theater between them.

I say this because I think most of Prog Metal is merely a sub style of heavy metal. Far from progressive rock (and it's easy to see that a large portion of prog metal audiences do not listen to prog rock, which may be a clue). Also, I think some bands like DT or Pain of Salvation can not be merely heavy metal bands with progressive influence. They are more than that.

I do not know if it was clear what I meant. I do not know if it's clear enough for me lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 22, 2019, 05:16:10 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on January 22, 2019, 05:05:00 PM
Is Prog metal (the genre)  effectively a mix of heavy metal and progressive rock? Or merely a kind of metal that incorporated elements of progressive rock?

Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on January 22, 2019, 05:19:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on January 22, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 03:16:46 PM
Isn't TCoT metal?
Not any more than anything pre-ToT.

There's definitely a decent part of it that I'd say is metal, but that part is only 6 or 7 minutes long (which still makes it long enough to be a song by itself) but it also make it only a third out of the full 19 minutes song. So is it a metal song if 2/3 of it aren't really metal?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 22, 2019, 05:24:22 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

And then, they respond with "Who?" and you say, "No, Yes," and they say, "well, which is it?!"  Hilarity ensues....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:32:46 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on January 22, 2019, 05:24:22 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

And then, they respond with "Who?" and you say, "No, Yes," and they say, "well, which is it?!"  Hilarity ensues....

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DazzlingHiddenAlpineroadguidetigerbeetle-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 05:59:21 PM
While we are discussing prog, this podcast with JP and JR on their Top 5 prog instrumentals is a good listen:

https://youtu.be/99SyXvRWiCg

JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on January 22, 2019, 06:05:29 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 05:59:21 PM
JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)
To a degree I can see that, but I'd say that genre description is more fitting for AJFA.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on January 22, 2019, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

I refer to them as a more progressive version of Europe.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on January 22, 2019, 10:59:53 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on January 22, 2019, 06:05:29 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 05:59:21 PM
JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)
To a degree I can see that, but I'd say that genre description is more fitting for AJFA.

Yeah definitely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 22, 2019, 11:04:29 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

I've already thought exactly like that. However, they undeniably have strong metal characteristics. Because of this I said above that I consider them as a good example of a band that really mixes progressive with metal. Unlike a band like Periphery, it is in this trend to make a type of metal more complex and difficult as possible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 11:11:38 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 22, 2019, 11:13:14 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 11:11:38 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

Ditto - from the minute I heard the opening riff to Pull Me Under they were metal in my mind. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on January 22, 2019, 11:27:30 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on January 22, 2019, 11:04:29 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

I've already thought exactly like that. However, they undeniably have strong metal characteristics. Because of this I said above that I consider them as a good example of a band that really mixes progressive with metal. Unlike a band like Periphery, it is in this trend to make a type of metal more complex and difficult as possible.

Yeah that's what is interesting about Dream Theater. They never really had a specific Metal Genre underlying their sound. They didn't start out as regular Heavy Metal, Thrash, Death, Power Metal etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on January 23, 2019, 12:05:11 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on January 22, 2019, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 22, 2019, 05:21:57 PM
Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

I refer to them as a more progressive version of Europe.  :biggrin:

Yes! I love Europe.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on January 23, 2019, 06:00:46 AM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

This is the most offensive post I've read in this most offensive of threads.































Beethoven is metal as fuck!! :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on January 23, 2019, 08:23:30 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 11:11:38 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

This exactly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 23, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on January 23, 2019, 09:19:52 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Yes, and Dream Theater are also metal. 

Quote from: TAC on January 18, 2019, 07:55:24 PM
I agree Scotty. I think calling SC and BC&SL metal albums is lazy.

Sure but if you only had one term to describe DT and those albums what would it be?

I'd say "metal"  sure prog metal is correct but usng only one description I'd say they are more metal than prog although its really close and those songs certainly aren't "hard rock" in my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stewie on January 23, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Exactly. Like I said, I guess it depends on which genre you most commonly associate with the term metal. For me, it’s the extremely heavy, extremely fast, extremely juvenile “we’re so angry and badass” stuff. So, while DT is heavy at times, I will never think of them as a “metal band”. I just can’t. They’ve got far too many mellow tunes and ballads to even begin to qualify as “metal”. I guess you could argue that some of their songs are metal, but I’d disagree, and say some of their songs are heavy, and more towards hard rock. Most metal bands that come to mind are pretty much very much the same, album to album, and every song on the album is metal. So, for this reason, I can’t classify DT as a metal band overall. Every time they get marketed as such, it’s always funny to me, because I instantly recall Anna Lee, Hollow Years, Another Day, etc. And then I’m like, okay I guess that one section in this or that song is heavy, but metal? No way. They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

So there’s my controversial opinion ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 23, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Stewie on January 23, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.


This is not controversial, just wrong. Literally calling all metal bands unsophisticated and juvenile.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on January 23, 2019, 12:35:34 PM
Quote from: Stewie on January 23, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: rumborak on January 23, 2019, 08:33:22 AM
Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Exactly. Like I said, I guess it depends on which genre you most commonly associate with the term metal. For me, it’s the extremely heavy, extremely fast, extremely juvenile “we’re so angry and badass” stuff. So, while DT is heavy at times, I will never think of them as a “metal band”. I just can’t. They’ve got far too many mellow tunes and ballads to even begin to qualify as “metal”. I guess you could argue that some of their songs are metal, but I’d disagree, and say some of their songs are heavy, and more towards hard rock. Most metal bands that come to mind are pretty much very much the same, album to album, and every song on the album is metal. So, for this reason, I can’t classify DT as a metal band overall. Every time they get marketed as such, it’s always funny to me, because I instantly recall Anna Lee, Hollow Years, Another Day, etc. And then I’m like, okay I guess that one section in this or that song is heavy, but metal? No way. They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

So there’s my controversial opinion ;)

Not so much controversial as it is objectively false. Metal is an entire style of music that has countless subgenres to delineate its different sounds. That's why Iron Maiden and Between the Buried and Me can both be called "metal" bands.

The "extremely heavy, extremely fast" style lies in the more, well, extreme side of metal. Things like death metal, tech death, metalcore, even black metal to an extent. Meanwhile you have still heavy but slower styles like doom and stoner metal.

Which is why you can safely call a band like Dream Theater "progressive metal" because their songwriting is in line with progressive rock characteristics, but incorporating metal into the mix. I don't think they sound a awful lot like Yes in that regard. Of course not all of their songs are outright metal, but a good chunk of them are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on January 23, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on January 22, 2019, 11:11:38 PM
DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

For me it isn't just about how heavy the overall sound is. Nirvana & Rage Against The Machine were heavier than Iron Maiden. I think the riffing style has a lot to do with what makes Metal. Metropolis Part I isn't a particularly heavy-sounding song but the guitar, bass, & drum rhythm where LaBrie starts singing is totally fucking metal.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on January 26, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 26, 2019, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on January 26, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?

Well generally it helps people discover new bands that they might like. If I heard that a group was doing experimental jazz I definitely wouldn't touch their albums for example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on January 26, 2019, 02:43:48 PM
That makes sense. Let me state the question better: Why do people argue/discuss (sometimes vehemently) if a particular group/song should be considered one category over another? Seems like a futile effort.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 27, 2019, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 26, 2019, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on January 26, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?

Well generally it helps people discover new bands that they might like. If I heard that a group was doing experimental jazz I definitely wouldn't touch their albums for example.

It usually helps, but it can also be a problem.

Today it is practically impossible to separate bands of prog metal and djent, only by the labels. In recent years, I've been filtering new bands attached with the "prog metal" label so many times, and about eighty percent were bands with the most modern Djent sound.

I understand the relationship of the two labels and I understand that they are often placed in the same box. But for me it is no longer useful, because I just do not listen to any new bands that I see labeled Prog Metal since I'm not interested in Djent.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on January 27, 2019, 03:38:45 PM
Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on January 27, 2019, 03:51:28 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on January 27, 2019, 02:45:45 PM


I understand the relationship of the two labels and I understand that they are often placed in the same box. But for me it is no longer useful, because I just do not listen to any new bands that I see labeled Prog Metal since I'm not interested in Djent.

I can relate to that.  Sampling everything labelled prog-metal these days is very dangerous if you don't want to be djentrified.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on January 27, 2019, 04:54:27 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 27, 2019, 03:38:45 PM
Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Preach.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 28, 2019, 09:58:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 27, 2019, 03:38:45 PM
Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Well, most prog bands aren't progressive really. For a lot of those bands the label "prog" is more a description of stylistic choices (instrumentation, a few odd meters etc).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on January 28, 2019, 01:30:35 PM
Because prog has come to simply mean odd time signatures, complex rhythms, lots of notes.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 29, 2019, 10:05:44 AM
I guess to some degree that happens to every genre once it starts getting established. Punk music had originally more a socioeconomic definition, whereas these days it means dual-guitar power chords that go mostly in IV or V transitions, and strict 4/4.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on January 29, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 23, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Stewie on January 23, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.


This is not controversial, just wrong. Literally calling all metal bands unsophisticated and juvenile.

+1000
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 05:37:02 PM
Couldn't disagree more, but it's interesting to see your perspective. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on January 30, 2019, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on January 30, 2019, 06:42:10 PM
Quote from: rumborak on January 28, 2019, 09:58:03 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on January 27, 2019, 03:38:45 PM
Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Well, most prog bands aren't progressive really. For a lot of those bands the label "prog" is more a description of stylistic choices (instrumentation, a few odd meters etc).
To me, the term prog moreso refers to the attitude you have about the music you make. Like take Coheed & Cambria for example. Yeah, some of their stuff can be complicated, but to me what makes them prog is that they're a concept band lyrically (with the exception of The Color Before The Sun), and they have recurring melodies and themes that span across not only individual albums but across all of their albums. It's music, which is art, but then it's taken to a whole other artistic level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 30, 2019, 07:27:43 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

Have you only heard 20 Dream Theater songs? ;D


It sounds way too forced, and to me it's nothing more than a B side, as is most of that album.

But glad you like it and it moves you. I like Prophets Of War! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on January 30, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 08:22:22 PM
Quote from: TAC on January 30, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.

I agree with that much. The album itself is still very lackluster. :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 30, 2019, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

It is worth mentioning that only BMS, TAMP and YOM have had more radical changes. I think label was right to remove Hell's Kitchen from BMS, but what's left of the song is even worse than the demo version, which is bad enough. I prefer YOM than YNM. TAMP is a gross mistake by Kevin Shirley.

Hollow Years had had a considerable change. It did not make much difference to me.

LITS and Anna Lee with subtle changes. Small cuts on the first, different arrangement on the second.

NM, JLMB, PS and TOT practically did not change anything.

For me the worst thing was that they cut songs better than some of those on the album. I really like all the excluded songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on January 31, 2019, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.


I'll just ignore the "top-20" part of your post and say that it's a wonderful song that I like a lot.  That way, it can feel like I'm agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on January 31, 2019, 07:56:53 AM
I would say the same thing for Disappear. Magical, touching, deep.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on January 31, 2019, 08:00:20 AM
Anna Lee is such a hidden gem.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

I agree with you completely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 31, 2019, 08:31:39 AM
Quote from: Adami on January 30, 2019, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.
Yep.  Not lap steel.  He's playing an Ibanez Talman guitar using a slide.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on January 31, 2019, 08:31:39 AM
Quote from: Adami on January 30, 2019, 05:38:14 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.
Yep.  Not lap steel.  He's playing an Ibanez Talman guitar using a slide.

Thanks guys. I should have known that. appreciate the correction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on January 30, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

I don't know how controversial it is to think (as I do) that "You Not Me" is vastly superior to "You or Me."  MP notes on his web site that, once the label declined to release a two-CD set, they weren't going to use YOM, but they obviously did choose to include it after it became YNM.

That said, I'm not sure that the "label restructur[ed] [any of] the songs on FII."  Citing Lifting Shadows, the Wikipedia article for the album notes that Kevin Shirley "made significant alterations to some of [the songs]; most notably, he took the middle section of 'Burning My Soul' and turned it into what would become 'Hell's Kitchen.'"  Shirley also suggested the collaboration with Desmond Child on YOM/YNM.  This is consistent with what's on MP's web site.  I think the label's biggest direct involvement with the music was the refusal to release a two-CD set, which resulted in the poorest songs being omitted.  That's certainly a good thing IMO.

Maybe the distinction between Kevin Shirley editing the songs and the label doing it is one that's meaningful only to me, but I think it's a big distinction (especially when you consider that DT continued to work with Shirley throughout MP's tenure with the band).  With the exception of YOM, I've probably only listened to the demo versions once or maybe twice, but I don't recall any of them being so significantly different or better or worse than what ended up on the album (other than, obviously, BMS being a lot different with HK in the middle).


Quote from: TAC on January 30, 2019, 08:17:34 PM
Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.

Exactly.


Quote from: bosk1 on January 31, 2019, 07:52:18 AM
Quote from: Samsara on January 30, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.


I'll just ignore the "top-20" part of your post and say that it's a wonderful song that I like a lot.  That way, it can feel like I'm agreeing with you.

That's about where I am.  "Top 20" goes WAY too far for me, but I like it a lot, and it's one of my favorite songs on FII (which, given my opinion about that album as a whole, isn't saying a lot, but I do enjoy the song).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 10:39:14 AM
deleted
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on January 31, 2019, 10:58:07 AM
Speaking of Anna Lee, there's always this version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qZ6YsrOh8
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on January 31, 2019, 11:39:22 AM
I'm too in the camp of those who think that, starting from the point that there had to be a single CD for Falling Into Infinity, all the decisions were for the better. There's no need to be prog for the sake of being prog and interrupt the flow of an ordinary rocking song, it was right to remove what became Hell's Kitchen. If you want to try to gain some exposure, You Not Me is a crystal clear better attempt than You Or Me. Nevermind that the song bombed, it was a better shot than YOM. Hollow Years works just fine with the more streamlined bridge. And my personal preference is that Speak to Me was worthier of making the album cut than Take Away My Pain but I get the latter had a more personal meaning for MP.

Also, consider the two best unintended good consequences of this "tampering":

- The band creating the best part of Hell's Kitchen, the whole final passage to lead into Lines in the Sand;
- Needless to say, Metropolis pt. 2 being shelved so that it could become Scenes  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 11:47:20 AM
One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. In a nutshell, the whole "Metropolis" template is why I get frustrated with the band. It was cool to have an off the wall instrumental section that eventually tied back into the song in Metropolis. But they started trying to mimic that going forward (particularly starting after FII), and its not cool (for me). If your solo is so far off the main vibe of the tune that it detracts from the song itself, it shouldn't be the solo (generally speaking, for me, personally).

I always considered Metropolis cool because it was an oddity to my ear, and was a fun adventure. But when that started getting repeated, I started getting annoyed with it. Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on January 31, 2019, 11:58:23 AM
Funny thing, I consider Metropolis' solo section quite enjoyable, fitting to the song, and for most of it, quite memorable and even hummable. What you describe I feel it more in the latter albums of the MP era, it's there when the solo sections felt more like jams and disconnected from the mood of the songs, but as long and maybe bloated as it is, I love Metropolis' solo section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on January 31, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
Metropolis solo section is responsible for me posting this here more than 20 years later. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 12:35:52 PM
No, no, don't misunderstand. I very much LOVE the Metropolis solo section. Because I felt it was a different and sort of unique approach. But then they sorta mirrored that "lets put a solo that has barely anything to do with the song that sounds like a standalone section" style more and more over the years, and it was that STYLE that I soured on, or at least the repetitive nature of how it appeared in DT songs going forward, with BMS '96 being a prime example of where it was much better being removed to be its own track (HK).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 11:47:20 AM
One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. . . .

. . . Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)

Yes, yes, and more yes!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on January 31, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 31, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 31, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 03:18:44 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 31, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!

It's in Hell's Kitchen.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on February 01, 2019, 05:56:20 AM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 11:47:20 AM
One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track.
Burning My Soul is in my top ten worst DT tracks, and Hell's Kitchen is one of my favorite instrumentals of all time, so I'm very grateful for that decision as well.

re: Anna Lee in your top 20, I wonder if you ever made a DT top 50 back when those threads were trendy! Not that I disagree, Anna Lee is fantastic, but you'd be surprised at how many things pop out of your top twenty when you remember a song you love even more than the previous one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 01, 2019, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 03:18:44 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on January 31, 2019, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Quote from: PetFish on January 31, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!

It's in Hell's Kitchen.  :lol

 :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 01, 2019, 08:58:52 PM
Quote from: Samsara on January 31, 2019, 11:47:20 AM
One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. In a nutshell, the whole "Metropolis" template is why I get frustrated with the band. It was cool to have an off the wall instrumental section that eventually tied back into the song in Metropolis. But they started trying to mimic that going forward (particularly starting after FII), and its not cool (for me). If your solo is so far off the main vibe of the tune that it detracts from the song itself, it shouldn't be the solo (generally speaking, for me, personally).

I always considered Metropolis cool because it was an oddity to my ear, and was a fun adventure. But when that started getting repeated, I started getting annoyed with it. Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)
You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:
Quote
At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

Regarding BMS, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I really do like how the ending they came up with after they pulled the middle section out of BMS. On the other hand, having first become familiar with BMS from the Fix for 96 shows, I missed the variation between the mellow and the heavy of the original version. And let's not forget that there was an initial mellow opening to the original version BMS that was perfectly in line with the mellow section that was later edited out. So it wasn't as if that mellow middle section (that later became part of HK) was just some random part thrown into the middle of the song - it was connecting with the original mellow opening of the song. And it could be said that the way it was written fell under the parameters that JP spoke about in that quote above before Kevin Shirley edited it. Makes me wonder what he would've done to ACoS and the songs on IaW had he been the producer - probably would've edited those songs down too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on February 02, 2019, 01:33:39 AM
Yeah, I agree - the ending they later added to HK is great, but I never thought the mellow HK section felt out of place in BMS - I just think they shoud've developed a better transition to the keyboard solo. What remained of BMS without it was a dull, repetitive song whereas the original version was pretty damn good as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on February 02, 2019, 03:47:10 AM
Is there anywhere to download a digital version of Burning My Soul ‘96? I’ve only heard it on YouTube but wouldn’t mind having my own copy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on February 02, 2019, 05:06:00 AM
Quote from: DTA on February 02, 2019, 03:47:10 AM
Is there anywhere to download a digital version of Burning My Soul ‘96? I’ve only heard it on YouTube but wouldn’t mind having my own copy.

It's included in the Falling Into Infinity Demos although I'm not sure they're available digitally (legally).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: dedSurroun on February 02, 2019, 06:07:36 AM
The circus and wizard sound patches from Rudess single-handedly ruin most songs and prevents the DT songs where they appear from ever becoming great songs.

Those patches were outdated and vomit-inducing the moment Banks fiddled around with them in Genesis. They sound even triter when Rudess keeps playing them, over and over again.

Give it a rest. Stop ruining the songs. Come up with some more interesting patches. It's 2019.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:27:53 AM
Quote from: dedSurroun on February 02, 2019, 06:07:36 AM
The circus and wizard sound patches from Rudess single-handedly ruin most songs and prevents the DT songs where they appear from ever becoming great songs.

Those patches were outdated and vomit-inducing the moment Banks fiddled around with them in Genesis. They sound even triter when Rudess keeps playing them, over and over again.

Give it a rest. Stop ruining the songs. Come up with some more interesting patches. It's 2019.

 :tup :tup

From your fingers to the Wizard's ears.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 01, 2019, 08:58:52 PM

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

Quote
At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:37:08 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on February 01, 2019, 05:56:20 AM

re: Anna Lee in your top 20, I wonder if you ever made a DT top 50 back when those threads were trendy! Not that I disagree, Anna Lee is fantastic, but you'd be surprised at how many things pop out of your top twenty when you remember a song you love even more than the previous one.

I never really did, no. But I do "star" as "favorites" tunes in iTunes by record. And while I don't have those starred tracks ordered by number, its one of them. On FII, it is fourth, behind Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, and Hell's Kitchen. So its probably right at that 20 mark overall, after a quick glance of all the other records (nothing post-Train of Thought is starred).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on February 06, 2019, 09:43:27 AM
Quote from: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I feel you on this. The worst offender is the circus breakdown in the middle. Why oh why there is a circus moment in a song about the difficulties of being apart from your loved one? that's a spur of the moment thing that works well live, like the Simpsons theme in the middle of A Change of Seasons on Live Scenes from NY (which I love, so it's not that I'm on principle against wacky moments).

There is no need to have the Simpsons theme in the studio version of A Change of Seasons, and certainly there isn't a reason for a circus comedy moment in the middle of Endless Sacrifice... at least that I was able to find.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2019, 11:14:46 AM
Three words: Emerson Lake Palmer

ELP is probably JR's biggest influence, and those "circus" section were a mainstay in their music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2019, 11:14:46 AM
Three words: Emerson Lake Palmer

ELP is probably JR's biggest influence, and those "circus" section were a mainstay in their music.

Bingo. Which is why I absolutely appreciate Jordan's talent, and he seems to be an all around great guy, I personally think his introduction into the band is the reason why DT never really had any staying power for me post-FII. I like SFAM-forward, but I LOVED I&W and Awake, and really liked the more Jon Lord-inspired playing of Derek in FII.

And I cast no ill-will toward Jordan. Talent-wise, he's by far and away the best keyboardist DT has ever had. But stylistically, I prefer Kev Mo by a landslide, and also prefer Derek. Different strokes for different folks.

Quote from: MirrorMask on February 06, 2019, 09:43:27 AM
Quote from: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I feel you on this. The worst offender is the circus breakdown in the middle. Why oh why there is a circus moment in a song about the difficulties of being apart from your loved one? that's a spur of the moment thing that works well live, like the Simpsons theme in the middle of A Change of Seasons on Live Scenes from NY (which I love, so it's not that I'm on principle against wacky moments).

There is no need to have the Simpsons theme in the studio version of A Change of Seasons, and certainly there isn't a reason for a circus comedy moment in the middle of Endless Sacrifice... at least that I was able to find.

Yep, that's the whole thing. It's just ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong - I will always LIKE Dream Theater. I have always supported them, even post-ToT where I thought they had gone way off the rails (starting with Octavarium and some blatant rip-offs of other bands like Kansas). I've bought every record, gone to most tours. (I've seen them live 13x, I think.) But they never rose to the level of say like the original lineup of Queensryche, Fates Warning, etc., for me, because of some of the artistic decisions they have made. And that's OK. We all like different things. :)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 06, 2019, 11:38:25 AM
Like anything else, sometimes the extended instrumental forays "work," and sometimes they don't.  But yeah, opinions....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 06, 2019, 12:03:22 PM
I personally never minded those circus sections. Yes, they became a bit of a trope for JR, but frankly, DT can be quite tropey anyway (and if you don't agree, you can eat my ass and balls).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 06, 2019, 12:28:34 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 06, 2019, 12:03:22 PM
I personally never minded those circus sections. Yes, they became a bit of a trope for JR, but frankly, DT can be quite tropey anyway (and if you don't agree, you can eat my ass and balls).

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 06, 2019, 12:45:26 PM
The Mikes change is nothing compared to JR's entry into the DT. Jordan's presence changed everything.

On extent instrument sections:Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think in some moments they get lost, and only see a jam, without much commitment to songwriting (mainly at the end of the Portnoy phase). But the presence of these sections are part of who they are. You can't complain about it. It's like complaining that Behemoth is too much anti-religious.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on February 06, 2019, 05:04:03 PM
While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  :laugh:)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 06, 2019, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: CDrice on February 06, 2019, 05:04:03 PM
While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  :laugh:)

I love it, and I think it makes the song. To me it highlights the frustrations of being away from home.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 06, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 01, 2019, 08:58:52 PM

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

Quote
At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).

You do realize that DT was self produced since scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 06, 2019, 09:02:16 PM
JR's circus part in ES is just as out of place as Mike Portnoy's drum showoff at the end of Finally Free if one's basis is that it doesn't fit the tone of the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on February 07, 2019, 02:25:07 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on February 06, 2019, 09:02:16 PM
JR's circus part in ES is just as out of place as Mike Portnoy's drum showoff at the end of Finally Free if one's basis is that it doesn't fit the tone of the lyrics.

Tbh, I love both. Truth is, my mind is out of place most of the time, so... :biggrin:

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 07, 2019, 06:58:28 AM
Quote from: CDrice on February 06, 2019, 05:04:03 PM
While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  :laugh:)

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel too. I get what people are saying, but I love ES and those JR parts are enjoyable to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 07, 2019, 08:44:34 AM
I really don't get a whole lot of mileage out of those out-of-left-field instrumental pieces these days. Probably the worst offender being TMOLS. Just sounds ridiculously tone-deaf.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 07, 2019, 11:02:21 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 06, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: Samsara on February 06, 2019, 09:32:10 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 01, 2019, 08:58:52 PM

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

Quote
At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).

You do realize that DT was self produced since scenes.

Uh, yeah. And that coincides nicely with the fact that I much prefer I&W and Awake (and arguably FII) to anything from Scenes to now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 01:11:59 PM
It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 07, 2019, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 01:11:59 PM
It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 07, 2019, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 01:11:59 PM
It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.

But even in that sense, I think it's a well-produced album.

Moreover, can we consider that there was a lot of interference from external producers in WDADU, I&W and Awake, since we know the demos?

I'm not trying to defend MP and JP as producers, I make it clear.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 07, 2019, 03:20:10 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 07, 2019, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 01:11:59 PM
It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.

This.

Quote from: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 02:17:04 PM

But even in that sense, I think it's a well-produced album.

Moreover, can we consider that there was a lot of interference from external producers in WDADU, I&W and Awake, since we know the demos?

I'm not trying to defend MP and JP as producers, I make it clear.  :lol

Like was said, I wasn't talking about the production of the records. Just songwriting and the way an external producer tends to offer alternative approaches to things, and suggests changes to songs.

I wouldn't call what producers did from WDADU through FII to be "interference." I call it doing their job, and Dream Theater, IMO, was better for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 07, 2019, 03:34:12 PM
I got it.

I just don't think the external producers were that vital. From WDADU to Awake the final version is pretty close to the demos, overall.
I'm not saying the producers didn't do their job. But it would be different if we heard the demos of these albums and they were significantly different. If the demos were full of excesses as in many cases of modern DT, and the producers had "cut the fat", I would have another opinion.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on February 08, 2019, 10:16:11 AM
I was thinking about posting this into the DOT topic, but maybe it belongs here.

I don't like Mangini's drum sound on these singles. Especially the snare, which feels kind of mechanical and lifeless. Now, this has nothing to do with Mangini's drumming itself, just the production. And this goes further than just Dream Theater, many modern metal bands similarly have bland-sounding drums. I'm not wholly educated in the topic, but I think my issue is with drum triggers. I feel they kill some of the dynamics drums naturally have and generally make the drums sound like they've been straight-up programmed. I'm in favour of more organic sounding drums. Call me old-fashioned, but I like my drums sounding like the drummer POUNDS the hell out of the skins when it's heavy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on February 08, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
Quote from: Ruba on February 08, 2019, 10:16:11 AM
I was thinking about posting this into the DOT topic, but maybe it belongs here.

I don't like Mangini's drum sound on these singles. Especially the snare, which feels kind of mechanical and lifeless. Now, this has nothing to do with Mangini's drumming itself, just the production. And this goes further than just Dream Theater, many modern metal bands similarly have bland-sounding drums. I'm not wholly educated in the topic, but I think my issue is with drum triggers. I feel they kill some of the dynamics drums naturally have and generally make the drums sound like they've been straight-up programmed. I'm in favour of more organic sounding drums. Call me old-fashioned, but I like my drums sounding like the drummer POUNDS the hell out of the skins when it's heavy.
[/quocars
I think triggers can be extremely useful but only if they're utilized properly. For example, a  lot of mix engineers will completely replace the snare instead of using a blend of the snare sample and the original recorded drum. Replacing the drum completely can really screw with the dynamics but if you do a good job of blending the two, the sample can really help get a good full body out of a drum if it was captured poorly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 08, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 08, 2019, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 08, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.

I agree.  That was the one knock I posted about having from hearing the album for the first time.  But I don't view it as a step back.  His cymbals have sounded bad since day 1 in DT.  They may not have sounded this mushy, but they have been almost inaudible in the past. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on February 08, 2019, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 08, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.

Cymbals should, in theory, sound bright and colorful while still being smooth and creamy enough to blend into a mix. Your salt shaker analogy is spot on. There's a strong brittle body to the Mangini's cymbals that, when removed, doesn't leave a lot left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 09, 2019, 04:31:09 PM
I like Imposter Portnoy's drumming on the new songs more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 10, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

So JP who has been the main composer since the first album is more replacable than James and Jordan? What?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 11:40:12 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 10, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

So JP who has been the main composer since the first album is more replacable than James and Jordan? What?
Not as a composer, that is definitely JP's strength. (and I'm not here to say anyone in DT is bad or anything.) I'm referring to technical proficiency. I know that's a controversial opinion. (That's why I thought it would belong here)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 10, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
There's more that makes up DT's core sound than just technical musicianship, and it's mostly due to JP's songwriting and production.

JP not being as much of a virtuoso as JR or MM does not make him more "replaceable".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 10, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
There's more that makes up DT's core sound than just technical musicianship, and it's mostly due to JP's songwriting and production.

JP not being as much of a virtuoso as JR or MM does not make him more "replaceable".
I would praise JP's (and James' and JM's) songwriting abilities as much as anyone. I actually do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 10, 2019, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 12:20:22 PM
James won't leave anytime soon I think, so never fear. I don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on February 10, 2019, 12:27:23 PM
Petrucci and LaBrie are what makes DT, well, DT - Petrucci with his songwriting, his style, his attitude towards the band and the fact that he's always been there since day one. There are out there guitarists who could technically replace him, but only JP can write songs that make DT the band it is.

LaBrie is the voice of the band. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel "right" with DT, he's been there an entire carrer minus the debut album and no matter who you get, it wouldn't feel right. You could find a singer who could nail Learning to Live night after night, but a singer that would feel like he's born to sing DT songs? hell no.

Jordan's leaving would be a huge blow, and would change very drastically the dynamics of the band, but as long as Petrucci is still there, it would still sound like DT. After all Jordan wasn't on Images and Words and Awake.

Myung... the man is so shrouded in mystery, and I'm not a musician or bass player anyway, so I can't have a proper opinion on how much his presence is vital to the core of DT.

Mangini, sorry, he's the replaceable one. No disrespect to the guy, I like him and I hope he stays until the end of the band, but he's with the band since only 2011 anyway. DT went on without Portnoy, they could as well go on without Mangini.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2019, 01:00:05 PM
Calling MM irreplaceable is kinda odd since he replaced a supposedly irreplaceable person.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on February 10, 2019, 01:23:07 PM
I in regards to irreplaceable I think JP holds that title. He IMO is the driving force behind DT. Now I'm not saying they other guys are hired guns, but JP is the heart of DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 10, 2019, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 10, 2019, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums

I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonny108 on February 10, 2019, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2019, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 10, 2019, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 10, 2019, 10:50:20 AM
Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums

I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.

Not for me, I don't see Queen w/ Adam Lambert as Queen neither, it seems like more of a tribute to the music of Queen.  JLB is the sound of DT and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on February 10, 2019, 04:05:10 PM
I agree completely.   Even right now.   I mean, I am one of JLBs biggest fans and supporters.   But if he just decided he wanted to pull a Neil Peart move and just say "I love these guys, but I can't do it 100% any more and I want to spend time with my family", I would be totally down with that.   

And if that were to happen, I wouldn't want someone who was a soundalike, but definitely someone who was capable of doing the older material. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 10, 2019, 04:38:53 PM
Quote from: rumborak on February 10, 2019, 03:57:32 PM
I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.

Oh, what I've said was from a personal point of view.

Just today I read dozens of comments like "Bring Portnoy back, and send JLB away." So I don't think it would be a big drama for LaBrie's eventual absence (at least for a considerable portion of the fanbase). And even people who like him could see the situation in a positive way.

You're right, people would show up for that. But don't count on me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on February 10, 2019, 06:41:31 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

This doesn't belong in an opinion thread since it's a plain fact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 07:27:47 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on February 10, 2019, 06:41:31 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 10, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

This doesn't belong in an opinion thread since it's a plain fact.

:tup

John has been the main music and lyric writer in DT since the beginning, he's always been the band leader to me and I could see any other member being replaced at some point but not him. Even if you put Eric Gillete there, who is the most JP-ish out of the Petrucci clone guitarists out there, it still wouldn't feel right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 18, 2019, 07:12:43 PM
As of today, I prefer to listen to ADToE over Scenes from a Memory, and it's my fourth favorite DT album after I&W, Awake and 6DoIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
ADTOE is in my Top 5. I think it's amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 18, 2019, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
ADTOE is in my Top 5. I think it's amazing.

Same here. Here is the order of Herrick's Top 5:

1: Images & Words
2: Metropolis Part II: Scenes From A Memory
3: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4: Awake
5: A Dramatic Turn of Events

Awake would rank higher up but the last 4 tracks are pretty meh except for Space-Dye Vest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2019, 08:11:01 PM
Swap 6 D's with WDADRu and we have the same Top 5 pretty much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on February 18, 2019, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 18, 2019, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
ADTOE is in my Top 5. I think it's amazing.

Same here. Here is the order of Herrick's Top 5:

1: Images & Words
2: Metropolis Part II: Scenes From A Memory
3: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4: Awake
5: A Dramatic Turn of Events

Awake would rank higher up but the last 4 tracks are pretty meh except for Space-Dye Vest.

I must highly disagree that Scarred is "meh". (I'm a 51 year old man and I just typed the word meh. Hell, I did it again! I'm very ashamed.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2019, 09:26:37 PM
Scarred is my #3 DT song. And I'm 50! ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on February 18, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
The thing I love most about Scarred, Innocence Faded, etc is the outro is like a whole 'nother song.

They feel like they could go off on their own and be their own song entirely but they don't and that's also part of their charm.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2019, 09:37:48 PM
Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 19, 2019, 09:06:06 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 18, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
The thing I love most about Scarred, Innocence Faded, etc is the outro is like a whole 'nother song.

Imo the outros are the things that ruin Scarred and Innocence Faded.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on February 19, 2019, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 19, 2019, 09:06:06 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 18, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
The thing I love most about Scarred, Innocence Faded, etc is the outro is like a whole 'nother song.

Imo the outros are the things that ruin Scarred and Innocence Faded.
Wow, those are some of the best outros I've ever heard and make the songs that much better!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on February 19, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 19, 2019, 09:06:06 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 18, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
The thing I love most about Scarred, Innocence Faded, etc is the outro is like a whole 'nother song.

Imo the outros are the things that ruin Scarred and Innocence Faded.

Well, your opinion in this case it's not just controversial...it's WRONG!   :facepalm: :facepalm: :biggrin: :biggrin:

In particular Innocence Faded outro solo is majestic! :)

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Well, here is mine...

The Glass Prison is one of the worst Dream theater songs.
To be more precise, the first 3 minutes are absolutely fantastic, but the remaining 10 are a total pain.

And, more broadly, the whole 12-steps saga is the worst "concept" ever written and performed by DT, and contains many of the worst moments in their discography.






Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on February 19, 2019, 12:58:13 PM
Quote from: erciccio on February 19, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
The Glass Prison is one of the worst Dream theater songs.
To be more precise, the first 3 minutes are absolutely fantastic, but the remaining 10 are a total pain.

Back in the day when we played the song in my DT tribute band, we cut the last part by a good amount. It was just chugga-chugga and we started to get lost (and tired) because it was so repetitive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on February 18, 2019, 09:24:32 PM

I must highly disagree that Scarred is "meh". (I'm a 51 year old man and I just typed the word meh. Hell, I did it again! I'm very ashamed.)

Now I'm trying to remember which one is Scarred. One of those last few songs has that really cheezy tropical 80s feel to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
Quote from: erciccio on February 19, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 19, 2019, 09:06:06 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 18, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
The thing I love most about Scarred, Innocence Faded, etc is the outro is like a whole 'nother song.

Imo the outros are the things that ruin Scarred and Innocence Faded.

Well, your opinion in this case it's not just controversial...it's WRONG!   :facepalm: :facepalm: :biggrin: :biggrin:

In particular Innocence Faded outro solo is majestic! :)

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Well, here is mine...

The Glass Prison is one of the worst Dream theater songs.
To be more precise, the first 3 minutes are absolutely fantastic, but the remaining 10 are a total pain.

And, more broadly, the whole 12-steps saga is the worst "concept" ever written and performed by DT, and contains many of the worst moments in their discography.

"Innocence Faded" is just not a good song.  Bottom 10 and probably bottom 5 DT song for me.  "Scarred," on the other hand is easily a top 10 song.

"The Glass Prison" -- neither top nor bottom of the barrel for me.  When I first got SDOIT, I didn't care much for disc 1 and spent almost all my listening time with disc 2.  It took several years for me to start enjoying any of the disc 1 material.  I like TGP.  I really like "Misunderstood."  "Blind Faith" has risen up to a top 10 DT song.

As far as the 12SS as a whole, I like TGP and TSF.  TROAE is pretty good too.  TDS is meh, and "Repentance" is bad.  Is it "the worst 'concept' ever written and performed by DT"?  I don't know.  I suppose it depends on what you define as a "concept."  It certainly doesn't compare to SFAM, but I'd say I like it better than The Astonishing.  What else are we comparing?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on February 19, 2019, 01:52:05 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 01:34:52 PM

Now I'm trying to remember which one is Scarred. One of those last few songs has that really cheezy tropical 80s feel to it.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Take Away My Pain from FII?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 02:14:36 PM
Quote from: rab7 on February 19, 2019, 01:52:05 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 01:34:52 PM

Now I'm trying to remember which one is Scarred. One of those last few songs has that really cheezy tropical 80s feel to it.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Take Away My Pain from FII?

Nah it's one of the last few songs from Awake. I'm probably giving a poor description of what I dislike about the song. I think I am thinking of Lifting Shadows Off a Dream.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on February 19, 2019, 03:33:50 PM
Any part of any song that sounds similar to my favorite band Rush (DT is 2nd) is fine with me. To me, the outro of Scarred reminded me of the three men of Willowdale so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 19, 2019, 03:37:52 PM
I realize music is subjective, but someone saying that Innocence Faded is just not a good song or having to defend the outro of Scarred... it boggles my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 03:43:00 PM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on February 19, 2019, 03:33:50 PM
Any part of any song that sounds similar to my favorite band Rush (DT is 2nd) is fine with me. To me, the outro of Scarred reminded me of the three men of Willowdale so much.

Interesting.  I LOVE the outro of Scarred, but I don't think it sounds at all like Rush.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Samsara on February 19, 2019, 03:48:53 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 03:43:00 PM
Quote from: cygnusx1jg on February 19, 2019, 03:33:50 PM
Any part of any song that sounds similar to my favorite band Rush (DT is 2nd) is fine with me. To me, the outro of Scarred reminded me of the three men of Willowdale so much.

Interesting.  I LOVE the outro of Scarred, but I don't think it sounds at all like Rush.

Same here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
As far as the 12SS as a whole, I like TGP and TSF.  TROAE is pretty good too.  TDS is meh, and "Repentance" is bad.  Is it "the worst 'concept' ever written and performed by DT"?  I don't know.  I suppose it depends on what you define as a "concept."  It certainly doesn't compare to SFAM, but I'd say I like it better than The Astonishing.  What else are we comparing?

Is Repentance the one with that hilarious deep voice talking? :lol What the fuck is up with that? And whose voice is it? I can't listen to that song without thinking of that old video where Petrucci is showing his gear and a guy is doing a voice-over with a funny deep voice "Yes I am your god". "My Mesa Boogie cabs were made by a guy called Ghandi...in India..."  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 19, 2019, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
Herrick can't listen to that song without thinking of that old video where Petrucci is showing his gear and a guy is doing a voice-over with a funny deep voice "Yes I am your god". "My Mesa Boogie cabs were made by a guy called Ghandi...in India..."  :rollin
FTFY! You're slipping, Mr. third person!   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 19, 2019, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 19, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
Herrick can't listen to that song without thinking of that old video where Petrucci is showing his gear and a guy is doing a voice-over with a funny deep voice "Yes I am your god". "My Mesa Boogie cabs were made by a guy called Ghandi...in India..."  :rollin
FTFY! You're slipping, Mr. third person!   :biggrin:

Awww you remembered  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on February 20, 2019, 06:27:05 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 01:50:17 PM

As far as the 12SS as a whole, I like TGP and TSF.  TROAE is pretty good too.  TDS is meh, and "Repentance" is bad.  Is it "the worst 'concept' ever written and performed by DT"?  I don't know.  I suppose it depends on what you define as a "concept."  It certainly doesn't compare to SFAM, but I'd say I like it better than The Astonishing.  What else are we comparing?


The "concepts" in my definition are sets of >1 songs linked by a common theme.

So:
SFAM
SDOIT disc 2
12SS
The Astonishing
(In the Presence of enemies)
( Wait for sleep + Learning to Live)

The last 2 being more a single song split in 2, but they fit my definition

Anyway, the 12SS IMHO ranks very very low, and I am super glad I never had to listen to it in its entirety live..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 20, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
Well, your definition does not fit your examples, but at least we now know what we are comparing. 

I dunno.  I can't say it is the "worst" concept DT has done.  I have a tough time applying a "worst" label to anything DT has done.  But despite a few weaker songs, the concept as a whole is pretty cool, IMO, and pretty creative. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 20, 2019, 06:47:58 AM
Yes, the "concept" of the 12SS is great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 20, 2019, 09:42:33 AM
Quote from: erciccio on February 20, 2019, 06:27:05 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 19, 2019, 01:50:17 PM

As far as the 12SS as a whole, I like TGP and TSF.  TROAE is pretty good too.  TDS is meh, and "Repentance" is bad.  Is it "the worst 'concept' ever written and performed by DT"?  I don't know.  I suppose it depends on what you define as a "concept."  It certainly doesn't compare to SFAM, but I'd say I like it better than The Astonishing.  What else are we comparing?


The "concepts" in my definition are sets of >1 songs linked by a common theme.

So:
SFAM
SDOIT disc 2
12SS
The Astonishing
(In the Presence of enemies)
( Wait for sleep + Learning to Live)

The last 2 being more a single song split in 2, but they fit my definition

Anyway, the 12SS IMHO ranks very very low, and I am super glad I never had to listen to it in its entirety live..

Ok...

Technically, SDOIT (the song) is a single song and, as you noted, ITPOE is a single song that is split in two, but I'll go with you on both.  I think "A Mind Beside Itself" also fits.  Ranking those you mentioned and AMBI, I'd go with the following:

SFAM
SDOIT
WFS/LTL (I'm not sure there is a lyrical connection, and I don't agree that this is a single song split into two)
AMBI
12SS
ITPOE
TA (I generally don't include TA in rankings because I don't feel I've given the album a full and fair shake, but this is where it sits presently).

And I agree that the "concept" behind the 12SS is good and might be better than the "concept" behind SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on February 20, 2019, 10:59:39 PM
Ministry of Lost Souls instrumental section needs to be cut out.  Is there a version without it? 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on February 20, 2019, 11:41:58 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2019, 09:26:37 PM
Scarred is my #3 DT song. And I'm 50! ;D

How is this controversial???

Quote from: lucidlydreaming on February 20, 2019, 10:59:39 PM
Ministry of Lost Souls instrumental section needs to be cut out.  Is there a version without it? 

Sees that lucidlydreaming's post counter is at 1

Coming out swinging!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on February 20, 2019, 11:44:12 PM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on February 20, 2019, 10:59:39 PM
Ministry of Lost Souls instrumental section needs to be cut out.  Is there a version without it?

Just make your own edit with any basic audio editor.  I made my own version without the LOUDINTROINMYFACECRAPMYPANTS but kept the instrumental part cuz I like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on February 21, 2019, 01:12:35 AM
The loud intro is awesome, especially if you put it after a song with a dramatic ending, such as example As I Am. Try it out for fun, put As I Am on and see how the outro suddenly bursts into the intro of Ministry, it's awesome  :metal

I too made my own edit version, and it was an easy job. Sometimes the most controversial solo sections of DT are described as "copy and paste", well, I am by no means a sound editor expert but cutting out the entire solo section of Ministry was so easy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 21, 2019, 05:53:33 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on February 21, 2019, 01:12:35 AM
I too made my own edit version, and it was an easy job. Sometimes the most controversial solo sections of DT are described as "copy and paste", well, I am by no means a sound editor expert but cutting out the entire solo section of Ministry was so easy.

you cut out the only good part of the song

rip
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on February 21, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on February 20, 2019, 10:59:39 PM
Ministry of Lost Souls instrumental section needs to be cut out.  Is there a version without it? 

Sees that lucidlydreaming's post counter is at 1

Coming out swinging!
[/quote]

I'm actually an old fan from the old forum days (MP forum, JP forum, DT forum) who stopped listening to prog around Systematic Chaos.  OIALT was my first album. ;)

Fun fact, if you were in any of those forums back around 2000 to the time Portnoy split, you might recognize my name.  I'm still using the same handle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on February 21, 2019, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2019, 07:18:07 PM
ADTOE is in my Top 5. I think it's amazing.

To this day, I still cannot understand how this album is not more appreciated. It's in my top 5 as well. I will never forget listening to it for the first time. It was one of the few times I loved an album on its first listen.

For me to like this album so much AND for it to have 3 ballads? That speaks volumes. Granted, Beneath The Surface is one of my fav DT ballads. Just don't care for FFH or TITL much, despite still being good songs.

If FFH was replaced by one more song on par with the rest of the non-ballads on the album, we are potentially looking at a top 3 DT album for me. Though, ToT would probably still have to edge out that 3 spot.

BAL, Outcry, BITS, OTBoA and LNF are simply phenomenal songs. And yes, I even love BMUBMD! BAL is a top 5 DT song ever for me, and the best of the Mangini era. Now that we've gotten a couple more albums in this recent era, I feel like it makes ADToE look even better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on February 21, 2019, 01:02:10 PM
My only real beef with ADTOE is the sound of it; it is too muddy and dry.  I'd probably listen to a lot more if it sounded better.  That said, I still like it a ton and it would be in the top half of my favorite DT albums list.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on February 21, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on February 21, 2019, 01:02:10 PM
My only real beef with ADTOE is the sound of it; it is too muddy and dry.  I'd probably listen to a lot more if it sounded better.  That said, I still like it a ton and it would be in the top half of my favorite DT albums list.

Pretty much exactly my opinion. It feels like they threw the faders up but didn't really EQ anything.

I keep thinking what it would be like if it had D/T's mix  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Controversial opinion;

I haven’t really liked the first three songs they’ve released off the new album. Seems more of the same as DT12. Paralyzed is just...okay. Really hoping for the best, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rab7 on February 21, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Controversial opinion;

I haven’t really liked the first three songs they’ve released off the new album. Seems more of the same as DT12. Paralyzed is just...okay. Really hoping for the best, though.

That's not controversial at all. The great thing is, a lot of the people who have heard it already say that the rest of the album is miles better than the 3 singles
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 21, 2019, 02:49:25 PM
 
Quote from: rab7 on February 21, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Controversial opinion;

I haven’t really liked the first three songs they’ve released off the new album. Seems more of the same as DT12. Paralyzed is just...okay. Really hoping for the best, though.

That's not controversial at all. The great thing is, a lot of the people who have heard it already say that the rest of the album is miles better than the 3 singles


Right, and Fall Into The Light is fantastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 21, 2019, 03:21:41 PM
I like the rest of the album more, that's for sure but when you think about as a whole three singles just fit perfect the thema of the album. And you start to love them more and more. Paralyzed is just fantastic and Fall Into The Light has an amazing middle section and outro. Though I still think UA is the weakest of all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 21, 2019, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on February 21, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
OIALT was my first album. ;)

Yikes!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: rab7 on February 21, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Controversial opinion;

I haven’t really liked the first three songs they’ve released off the new album. Seems more of the same as DT12. Paralyzed is just...okay. Really hoping for the best, though.

That's not controversial at all. The great thing is, a lot of the people who have heard it already say that the rest of the album is miles better than the 3 singles

I don’t know, man. People in the D/T thread are going pretty gaga over the album, calling it the best since SFAM, comparing it to Awake, etc. The rest of the songs would need to be EXTREMELY jaw droppingly good to get to that level. Again, trying hard to be optimistic, though!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 21, 2019, 06:06:22 PM
Not trying to discredit or minimize anyone's opinions at all. But typically when a new album drops, the initial reactions are usually from favorable to "this is a new classic". It's the nature of hype cycles. I suggest just go in with leveled expectations and come to what you will of it. Last time, I went in mouth-watering, then I was given The Astonishing, so. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on February 21, 2019, 07:25:01 PM
I'm just now starting to like 8V, the song and I bought the album on Day 1.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 22, 2019, 06:25:05 AM
If ADTOE'd had same production quality same of DoT it would've been placed higher in their discography... in the eye of the fans. Like this, at least for me it is placed as bottom 5.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Tomasoares on February 22, 2019, 06:43:56 AM
Hmm I actually enjoy the tighter mixing of ADTOE, my problem is that the album is too long, but lately I decided to remove Bridges in the sky from the tracklist and the experience flowed a lot better. It's far from a bad song, but tbh is my least favorite from the record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on February 22, 2019, 08:00:43 AM
Mangini should have been brought in 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 22, 2019, 08:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tomasoares on February 22, 2019, 06:43:56 AM
Hmm I actually enjoy the tighter mixing of ADTOE, my problem is that the album is too long, but lately I decided to remove Bridges in the sky from the tracklist and the experience flowed a lot better. It's far from a bad song, but tbh is my least favorite from the record.

ADTOE is literally one of my favorite DT albums, and still my fave of the MM Era. But honestly, I usually skip ATBOA and BMUBMD and start at LNF.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on February 22, 2019, 02:09:10 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 21, 2019, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on February 21, 2019, 12:25:44 PM
OIALT was my first album. ;)

Yikes!

Ytse Jam was the one that hooked me.  Plus, it introduced me to Peruvian Skies and Take The Time (I still want to see video of this with the Freebird outro btw).

It was enough to get me to get SFAM when it released shortly afterwards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 22, 2019, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 22, 2019, 08:00:43 AM
Mangini should have been brought in 20 years ago.

Or rather in 2007. Mike has his swan song with the amazing Score show and release and goes on to pursue his varying musical desires without being saddled with DT's structure, direction, and expectations; and hopefully(?) SC and BCaSL turn out more favorable to the fanbase (at least here those two are highly featured in the "Least favorite 3 album stretch" thread).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adamack on February 22, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
Here's one for everyone. Dystopian Overture is the second best song of the MM era after Breaking All Illusions. I said it!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on February 23, 2019, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 22, 2019, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on February 22, 2019, 08:00:43 AM
Mangini should have been brought in 20 years ago.

Or rather in 2007. Mike has his swan song with the amazing Score show and release and goes on to pursue his varying musical desires without being saddled with DT's structure, direction, and expectations; and hopefully(?) SC and BCaSL turn out more favorable to the fanbase (at least here those two are highly featured in the "Least favorite 3 album stretch" thread).

This exactly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BeardedGentlemanHistorian on February 23, 2019, 03:18:21 PM
"Fall Into The Light" is the best Mangini era song since "Breaking All Illusions".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on February 25, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
Barstool Warrior has one of the best lyrics JP has composed in the past 15 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: npiazza91 on February 27, 2019, 08:11:47 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: rab7 on February 21, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Controversial opinion;

I haven’t really liked the first three songs they’ve released off the new album. Seems more of the same as DT12. Paralyzed is just...okay. Really hoping for the best, though.

That's not controversial at all. The great thing is, a lot of the people who have heard it already say that the rest of the album is miles better than the 3 singles

I don’t know, man. People in the D/T thread are going pretty gaga over the album, calling it the best since SFAM, comparing it to Awake, etc. The rest of the songs would need to be EXTREMELY jaw droppingly good to get to that level. Again, trying hard to be optimistic, though!
I think that's just because it's so much better than The Astonishing in many people's eyes.  and to be fair, it is a great album.  I just think realistically it's like "SFAM/Awake lite".  It's great, but it's a step down from the classics imo.  It just doesn't have that magic to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 27, 2019, 08:14:07 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
I don’t know, man. People in the D/T thread are going pretty gaga over the album, calling it the best since SFAM, comparing it to Awake, etc. The rest of the songs would need to be EXTREMELY jaw droppingly good to get to that level. Again, trying hard to be optimistic, though!

I kind of agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bl5150 on February 27, 2019, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 27, 2019, 08:14:07 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
I don’t know, man. People in the D/T thread are going pretty gaga over the album, calling it the best since SFAM, comparing it to Awake, etc. The rest of the songs would need to be EXTREMELY jaw droppingly good to get to that level. Again, trying hard to be optimistic, though!

I kind of agree.

I agree too.  Certainly a good album but for me no better than any other MM era album (forgetting The Asstonishing)

I also don't get the idea that it's some kind of balls to the wall metal album either.  It's certainly heavy in parts but then so was DT12.

Having said the above the album is a continuation of the more melodic song-focused writing that got me back into the band around ADTOE after a very long period of disinterest in new DT material.   So while I don't consider the album to be in the league of I&W  (that applies to 99.99% of albums from anyone) I am happy to see them continuing in this vein.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on February 27, 2019, 11:00:55 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

Me too. I haven't listened to Octavarium in a long time. Maybe a year but I do love the title track. I think I'll listen to both albums black to black.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on February 27, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

More controversial: I like In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 more than Octavarium.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 27, 2019, 11:11:03 PM
ITPOE pt 2 should be banished from modern civilization.

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on February 28, 2019, 07:23:50 AM
Quote from: bl5150 on February 27, 2019, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 27, 2019, 08:14:07 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on February 21, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
I don’t know, man. People in the D/T thread are going pretty gaga over the album, calling it the best since SFAM, comparing it to Awake, etc. The rest of the songs would need to be EXTREMELY jaw droppingly good to get to that level. Again, trying hard to be optimistic, though!

I kind of agree.

I agree too.  Certainly a good album but for me no better than any other MM era album (forgetting The Asstonishing)

I also don't get the idea that it's some kind of balls to the wall metal album either.  It's certainly heavy in parts but then so was DT12.

Having said the above the album is a continuation of the more melodic song-focused writing that got me back into the band around ADTOE after a very long period of disinterest in new DT material.   So while I don't consider the album to be in the league of I&W  (that applies to 99.99% of albums from anyone) I am happy to see them continuing in this vein.

I think it's probably their best in a long time, since SFAM, heck no, I mean SDOIT does exist and it's their best album. But it's good. It is sitting better than the other MM albums for me right now though, it just feels better, which sounds silly and abstract, but it's how I feel.

I definitely don't think it's a "balls to the wall metal album" either. If ToT is the "metal" DT record, I think this album is ToT heavy stuff dipped in FII structure and flow.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 28, 2019, 09:05:29 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on February 27, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

More controversial: I like In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 more than Octavarium.  :lol

ITPOE (full song) is their most underrated epic. What a fantastic song it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on February 28, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
Ministry of Lost Souls solo section is perfect for the song. Without it, it would be a mid-paced snorefest, but the frantic middle section actually makes the whole song come together much better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: romdrums on February 28, 2019, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

You're not alone there.  I even like WDADU over 8V.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on February 28, 2019, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: Herrick on February 27, 2019, 11:00:55 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

Me too. I haven't listened to Octavarium in a long time. Maybe a year but I do love the title track. I think I'll listen to both albums black to black.

Quote from: erwinrafael on February 27, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 27, 2019, 07:37:17 PM
Posted this on the BC&SL thread, but it deserves to be posted here: I like SC more than Octavarium.

More controversial: I like In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 more than Octavarium.  :lol

I agree with both of these statements
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on February 28, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.

I really like Out of Reach.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on February 28, 2019, 08:02:49 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.

I really like Out of Reach.

Me too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on March 01, 2019, 06:51:00 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 28, 2019, 08:02:49 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.

I really like Out of Reach.

Me too.
I really like it too and I don't prefer most of their balads.  Since we're in the controversial thread, I might say it's their best one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on March 01, 2019, 07:58:52 AM
Quote from: Another_Won on March 01, 2019, 06:51:00 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 28, 2019, 08:02:49 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.

I really like Out of Reach.

Me too.
I really like it too and I don't prefer most of their balads.  Since we're in the controversial thread, I might say it's their best one.

Agreed. This is one of the top ballads they've produced thus far IMO. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on March 01, 2019, 09:42:17 PM
Another unpopular opinion I guess:

I find the vocal melodies in the Verse and Bridge sections of DT songs to be much catchier and more fun than their choruses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on March 02, 2019, 02:37:47 AM
Quote from: Ninjabait on March 01, 2019, 09:42:17 PM
Another unpopular opinion I guess:

I find the vocal melodies in the Verse and Bridge sections of DT songs to be much catchier and more fun than their choruses.

While it may be the case in some of their songs, it's not so for every song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mark Levinson Jr. on March 02, 2019, 11:46:33 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on March 01, 2019, 07:58:52 AM
Quote from: Another_Won on March 01, 2019, 06:51:00 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on February 28, 2019, 08:02:49 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on February 28, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: Zook on February 28, 2019, 11:39:44 AM
The first 3 songs on DoT are great. Room 137 is the weak link.

Definitely. And the signature DT waste of time balad.

The rest of the album is 7 to 10/10.

I really like Out of Reach.

Me too.
I really like it too and I don't prefer most of their balads.  Since we're in the controversial thread, I might say it's their best one.

Agreed. This is one of the top ballads they've produced thus far IMO.

I love Out Of Reach, and everyone I play it for seems to love it too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 03, 2019, 01:32:55 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.
I'm with you on that.  I'd rather have a concert mainly featuring  their new album d/t and a bunch of different songs from their catalog. I like Scenes alot but it's not my favorite DT album, I like TA way better.
They also skipped any cities nearby my neck of the woods (PNW) on the last tour as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 03, 2019, 01:47:28 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.

They played the first actual song preceded by a connected instrumental, the other instrumental song of the album and the final track. That hardly qualifies as "half the album". I get your point and I understand the sentiment of not wanting to see too many times the same old stuff, but they really played 3 actual songs (or scenes, to be more precise) and one was an instrumental (but I guess for the majority of prog listeners a song without a singer is not an oddity but just a very minor detail  :lol )
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 03, 2019, 06:56:49 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.

I'm looking forward to seeing SFAM live but I really don't want to see The Spirit Carries On. That will be a good bathroom break song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 03, 2019, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 03, 2019, 01:47:28 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.

They played the first actual song preceded by a connected instrumental, the other instrumental song of the album and the final track. That hardly qualifies as "half the album". I get your point and I understand the sentiment of not wanting to see too many times the same old stuff, but they really played 3 actual songs (or scenes, to be more precise) and one was an instrumental (but I guess for the majority of prog listeners a song without a singer is not an oddity but just a very minor detail  :lol )

They played played Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Dance of Eternity, and Finally Free WITH video...besides Home and Fatal Tragedy, that’s really the MEAT of the album and there really isn’t anything else on that album that’s even worth playing live in my opinion. It just feels redundant. Beyond This Life is kinda meh, Through Her Eyes is no bueno, Spirit has been played to death, and One Last Time is just a transitional song.

Again, this is coming from a guy who missed the last tour, so the last non-Astonishing thing I’ve seen from them live was a four song SFaM suite. So I may be a bit biased.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 03, 2019, 11:02:34 AM
MP is the Lars Ulrich of prog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on March 03, 2019, 11:07:24 AM
The whole album is worth playing, and I can't wait to see it.  :P

I would agree that The Spirit Carries On has been over played, but in the context of the whole album it's going to be great.

This probably isn't controversial, but I'd be happy with Distance Over Time being played in full on this tour too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 03, 2019, 11:22:29 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 03, 2019, 11:02:34 AM
MP is the Lars Ulrich of prog.

It’s funny because it’s true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 03, 2019, 11:53:15 AM
Ooookay, I’m gonna get mugged on the streets for this but:
 
“A Dramatic Turn of Events” is STILL the best Mangini-era album. Change my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 03, 2019, 11:55:39 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 03, 2019, 11:53:15 AM
Ooookay, I’m gonna get mugged on the streets for this but:
 
“A Dramatic Turn of Events” is STILL the best Mangini-era album. Change my mind.

Yes it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 03, 2019, 06:41:28 PM
Quote from: Lethean on March 03, 2019, 11:07:24 AM
The whole album is worth playing, and I can't wait to see it.  :P

I would agree that The Spirit Carries On has been over played, but in the context of the whole album it's going to be great.

This probably isn't controversial, but I'd be happy with Distance Over Time being played in full on this tour too.

Same here! I was seriously underwhelmed when UA and FITTL came out, but by the time Paralyzed was released I already had the album with the press release. Those first two songs work VERY well in the context of the album. Actually, come to think of it, I'd love for a setlist with any Mangini-era album, except The Astonishing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 03, 2019, 08:53:15 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 03, 2019, 11:53:15 AM
Ooookay, I’m gonna get mugged on the streets for this but:
 
“A Dramatic Turn of Events” is STILL the best Mangini-era album. Change my mind.

Yeah, I agree. But mostly due to BAI being so great (still my favorite track of the Mangini era).

I think DoT is slightly more consistent and has some pretty good tracks, but ADTOE is more memorable to me, at least so far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 03, 2019, 09:08:10 PM
ADTOE might have better "highs" than other MM-era albums, but it's not as consistent as DT12 or D/T imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 03, 2019, 09:51:17 PM
If in the right mood, I would put ADToE as my #3 DT album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 03, 2019, 10:13:30 PM
ADTOE is my least favourite of the MM-era albums.

I like most of the songs individually, but I've always had trouble getting from beginning to end without getting bored.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 05:39:51 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums. I also prefer the final studio versions over the demos. But I also love all of the songs that got left off. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on March 04, 2019, 06:34:08 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 05:39:51 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums. I also prefer the final studio versions over the demos. But I also love all of the songs that got left off.

Falling Into Infinity has a vibe unlike any other DT album. It's organic sounding and benefits more from mood/vibe rather than overt technicality. I think the final versions are improved over the demos (You Not Me is a huge improvement over You Or Me) and the b-sides are all killer except for Raise The Knife which sounds incomplete vocally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 07:08:52 AM
Quote from: DTA on March 04, 2019, 06:34:08 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 05:39:51 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums. I also prefer the final studio versions over the demos. But I also love all of the songs that got left off.

Falling Into Infinity has a vibe unlike any other DT album. It's organic sounding and benefits more from mood/vibe rather than overt technicality. I think the final versions are improved over the demos (You Not Me is a huge improvement over You Or Me) and the b-sides are all killer except for Raise The Knife which sounds incomplete vocally.

Were we separated at birth??
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 04, 2019, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: DTA on March 04, 2019, 06:34:08 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 05:39:51 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums. I also prefer the final studio versions over the demos. But I also love all of the songs that got left off.

Falling Into Infinity has a vibe unlike any other DT album. It's organic sounding and benefits more from mood/vibe rather than overt technicality. I think the final versions are improved over the demos (You Not Me is a huge improvement over You Or Me) and the b-sides are all killer except for Raise The Knife which sounds incomplete vocally.

I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more wrong on this forum
That album almost killed their career haha


Also, You Or Me is waaaaay better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 07:43:01 AM
Almost killer their career? It sold more in the than U.S. and was higher on the U.S. charts than Scenes From A Memory and Six Degrees. They were playing the same types of venues, to the same size crowds on Touring Into Infinity and the Metropolis 2000 tour. It started building up a little more toward the end of 2000 and from 2002 and onward. By the numbers, at least from the United States, it wasn’t any worse than the other albums besides Images.  Portnoy is the only one from the band that I’ve heard really diss it.  I think a lot of fans have used that as a barometer on how to measure it as a whole.  And just because Portnoy got mad cause he didn’t get is way and wanted to quit during that time, wouldn’t be disaster for the band. We would learn that later.  And also, even if all of that weren’t true, would it not being successful automatically make it a bad album?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 04, 2019, 09:42:44 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 07:43:01 AM
Almost killer their career? It sold more in the than U.S. and was higher on the U.S. charts than Scenes From A Memory and Six Degrees. They were playing the same types of venues, to the same size crowds on Touring Into Infinity and the Metropolis 2000 tour. It started building up a little more toward the end of 2000 and from 2002 and onward. By the numbers, at least from the United States, it wasn’t any worse than the other albums besides Images.  Portnoy is the only one from the band that I’ve heard really diss it.  I think a lot of fans have used that as a barometer on how to measure it as a whole.  And just because Portnoy got mad cause he didn’t get is way and wanted to quit during that time, wouldn’t be disaster for the band. We would learn that later.  And also, even if all of that weren’t true, would it not being successful automatically make it a bad album?

I dont use Portnoy as a barometer, it's just a bad album. Critically, commercially (it sold less than Awake which was also a disappointment), and even the majority of the super fans put it as a low mark in their career both then and today. The band even played the demo versions on the tour. Now, you can say this was ALL just Portnoy kicking and screaming, but it's pretty clear the band was going through a rough patch/identity crisis, even by listening to FII, without knowing the backstory. The album only helped in the sense that it solidified the direction they needed to go.

Now, you put this in controversial opinions, not me. You can love the album, and view it as an improvement over the original demos, I just STRONGLY disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 04, 2019, 10:40:25 AM
To me, they also lost some of their identity during that era. I'm not talking only about the album, but the tour as well, as they started to play A LOT of covers with no reason at all (FII was their fourth album, so they already had plenty of material to play an all original music set) and most of these songs weren't even prog. This got even worse when they started playing abridged versions of their own songs (LTL, Metropolis, Scarred, etc) but still used a considerable amount of setlist time on "classic" covers that are, to me, useless on a DT show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on March 04, 2019, 10:42:15 AM
ADToE is my #1 album and I love FII.  I would play both before I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 04, 2019, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 02, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Controversial opinion;

I’m not too excited to hear SFaM in its entirety on this tour. They played half the album, including all the good songs with the exception of Fatal Tragedy on their 2014 tour. And I could easily go another 20 years without wanting to hear The Spirit Carries On live, once agaaain. But this is also coming from a guy whose city was passed over on the Images Anniversay tour.

Overtrure 1928, Strange Deja Vu, The Dance of Eternity and Finally Free constitutes "half the album, including all the good songs"?  Putting aside the fact that I think all of the songs are "the good songs," four of 12 songs lasting about 27 minutes (out of a 77 minute album) is hardly "half the album."  I don't disagree that TSCO has been played to death, but it's a huge part of the story in context.  That said, I get that a lot of folks aren't excited about revisiting the album in its entirety.  Since I missed the SFAM tour, I'm really looking forward to this.


Quote from: Trav86 on March 04, 2019, 05:39:51 AM
I think Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums. I also prefer the final studio versions over the demos. But I also love all of the songs that got left off. 

Saying that FII is "one of their best albums" certainly is controversial, but I agree that what made it onto the album is a lot better than what didn't make it.  "You Not Me" is much better than "You or Me," and there's a reason that all of the tracks that didn't make it never made it onto any album.  They just weren't very good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Home and Dance of Eternity are actually two of the least interesting songs on SFAM.  Honesty, not trolling here.  I suspect I might be the only one who thinks this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on March 04, 2019, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Home and Dance of Eternity are actually two of the least interesting songs on SFAM.  Honesty, not trolling here.  I suspect I might be the only one who thinks this.


Home in my top 5 DT songs. I am a late DT bloomer - 3 years a fan now- and Home was one of the Hooks that got me. Now I don't care for instrumentals as much, so I agree on the last point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 04, 2019, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Home and Dance of Eternity are actually two of the least interesting songs on SFAM.  Honesty, not trolling here.  I suspect I might be the only one who thinks this.

The Dance of Eternity is not "interesting" just because there are no vocals and that's a huge drawback for any instrumental (yes, I know to the general progster I might sound like a flat earther). Home is a masterpiece and is, symbolically, the real "Metropolis pt. 2 if it was a single song".

Speaking of that, the only minor downside of having Scenes from a Memory is that we didn't get a proper "Metropolis part 2" song, in the same vein of the original. But then again, rather than having a bloated 25 minutes bigass piece, I welcome Scenes from a Memory as a full album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 04, 2019, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Home and Dance of Eternity are actually two of the least interesting songs on SFAM.  Honesty, not trolling here.  I suspect I might be the only one who thinks this.

The Dance of Eternity is not "interesting" just because there are no vocals and that's a huge drawback for any instrumental (yes, I know to the general progster I might sound like a flat earther). Home is a masterpiece and is, symbolically, the real "Metropolis pt. 2 if it was a single song".

Speaking of that, the only minor downside of having Scenes from a Memory is that we didn't get a proper "Metropolis part 2" song, in the same vein of the original. But then again, rather than having a bloated 25 minutes bigass piece, I welcome Scenes from a Memory as a full album.

DoE is nothing to do with being an instrumental.  I love instrumentals.  The barbershop and the buildup from 3.50-4.30 is pretty cool, but the rest, meh.  And I know everyone loves Home, but I could never get into it.

Part of this has a lot to do with how much I love the rest of the album, which is possibly my favourite of all time.  This was reaffirmed recently when I listened to it to compare to D/T and thought, man, Scenes is way better.  And I love D/T.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 04, 2019, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 04, 2019, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: smegolas on March 04, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Home and Dance of Eternity are actually two of the least interesting songs on SFAM.  Honesty, not trolling here.  I suspect I might be the only one who thinks this.

The Dance of Eternity is not "interesting" just because there are no vocals and that's a huge drawback for any instrumental (yes, I know to the general progster I might sound like a flat earther). Home is a masterpiece and is, symbolically, the real "Metropolis pt. 2 if it was a single song".

Speaking of that, the only minor downside of having Scenes from a Memory is that we didn't get a proper "Metropolis part 2" song, in the same vein of the original. But then again, rather than having a bloated 25 minutes bigass piece, I welcome Scenes from a Memory as a full album.

I agree with the first paragraph.  As far as not having an actual Metropolis Part 2, I guess the answer to why that didn't happen is that that's how the writing for SFAM happened to go.  Given that the original demo version was "a bloated 25 minutes big[]ass piece,"  :lol :lol I don't really have a problem at all with what we got.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 04, 2019, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on March 04, 2019, 10:40:25 AM
To me, they also lost some of their identity during that era. I'm not talking only about the album, but the tour as well, as they started to play A LOT of covers with no reason at all (FII was their fourth album, so they already had plenty of material to play an all original music set) and most of these songs weren't even prog. This got even worse when they started playing abridged versions of their own songs (LTL, Metropolis, Scarred, etc) but still used a considerable amount of setlist time on "classic" covers that are, to me, useless on a DT show.

Even worse was the decision to put Metropolis on the 5 Years in a Livetime video release and then cut if off right before the ending.  Yeah, give us almost all of the song and then cut it off before the end.  That made no sense whatsoever.  :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 04, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 04, 2019, 03:32:14 PM
Even worse was the decision to put Metropolis on the 5 Years in a Livetime video release and then cut if off right before the ending.  Yeah, give us almost all of the song and then cut it off before the end.  That made no sense whatsoever.  :facepalm: :facepalm:

And let's not forget that the mediocre footage they used for Metropolis barely included Myung playing his bad-ass tapping spot.

All this while the Japanese Awake tour show, excerpts from which they *did* include, featured a perfectly filmed complete performance of the piece.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 04, 2019, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: Kyo on March 04, 2019, 03:46:17 PM

And let's not forget that the mediocre footage they used for Metropolis barely included Myung playing his bad-ass tapping spot.

All this while the Japanese Awake tour show, excerpts from which they *did* include, featured a perfectly filmed complete performance of the piece.

Don't even get me started. I still can't believe Myung is barely shown in Through Her Eyes in the Live Scenes DVD.  His fretless bass work in that song is so bad ass.  That was epic fail in the editing department.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WheyWaffles on March 04, 2019, 11:50:48 PM
Controversial opinion:

The main thing that needs to change with regard to DT's vocal situation: the lyrics coming out of James' mouth. After two musically unappealing-to-me albums, I'm finding a lot to like on this one, but my god, the lyrics... I'm fine with lyrics I can't take seriously. They can be dumb, but they have to be fun as well so I can play along. No one likes dumb and boring lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 05, 2019, 07:50:15 AM
I don't think DT has ever had very good lyrics.
Good thing I don't care about lyrics at all.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 05, 2019, 10:04:43 AM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on March 04, 2019, 11:50:48 PM
Controversial opinion:

The main thing that needs to change with regard to DT's vocal situation: the lyrics coming out of James' mouth. After two musically unappealing-to-me albums, I'm finding a lot to like on this one, but my god, the lyrics... I'm fine with lyrics I can't take seriously. They can be dumb, but they have to be fun as well so I can play along. No one likes dumb and boring lyrics.

What is dumb about AWE's lyrics?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 05, 2019, 10:56:30 AM
Or ANY of the lyrics on d/t, for that matter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on March 05, 2019, 11:27:10 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2019, 10:56:30 AM
Or ANY of the lyrics on d/t, for that matter.

Yeah, was wondering that as well. Dumb lyrics on D/T? No way!

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on March 05, 2019, 10:50:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 04, 2019, 03:32:14 PM
Even worse was the decision to put Metropolis on the 5 Years in a Livetime video release and then cut if off right before the ending.  Yeah, give us almost all of the song and then cut it off before the end.  That made no sense whatsoever.  :facepalm: :facepalm:

Remember, MP had SERIOUS time constraints when putting the old home videos together to the point of having to cut out literally 10 seconds here and 10 seconds there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 04:41:42 AM
Quote from: PetFish on March 05, 2019, 10:50:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 04, 2019, 03:32:14 PM
Even worse was the decision to put Metropolis on the 5 Years in a Livetime video release and then cut if off right before the ending.  Yeah, give us almost all of the song and then cut it off before the end.  That made no sense whatsoever.  :facepalm: :facepalm:
Remember, MP had SERIOUS time constraints when putting the old home videos together to the point of having to cut out literally 10 seconds here and 10 seconds there.

Yeah, but come on! It was bad enough that Metropolis and Learning to Live were not included on the Live in Tokyo VHS at the time. Five years later their classic status was firmly established and they deserved better than just having incomplete performances included on the next home video. And with LTL it was even worse as we only got a 4-minute excerpt. At least LTL got included in the LSFNY DVD not much later, but with Metropolis this bootleg-quality truncated version remained the only official video release until Score almost a decade later.

And if you're dealing with time constraints, does Burning My Soul really deserve more time than these two? Does an acoustic rendition of a never commercially released song like Cover My Eyes? I never understood those priorities.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 06, 2019, 04:50:39 AM
Remember that the live VHS / DVD was a companion to the live CD. Burning My Soul was not on the live album and neither was Cover My Eyes. So probably that was the reasoning for keeping them, giving some diversity and more value to the two products.

Also, wasn't Metropolis and Learning to Live parts anyway of the encore medley that finished into The Crimson Sunset? it's not that MP cut them (as he did with Voices for example), they were already performed in a truncated way for that tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 05:34:36 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 06, 2019, 04:50:39 AM
Remember that the live VHS / DVD was a companion to the live CD. Burning My Soul was not on the live album and neither was Cover My Eyes. So probably that was the reasoning for keeping them, giving some diversity and more value to the two products.

Yeah, but adding diversity could've been done by shuffling around other songs without sacrificing two major classics for much weaker material.


Quote
Also, wasn't Metropolis and Learning to Live parts anyway of the encore medley that finished into The Crimson Sunset? it's not that MP cut them (as he did with Voices for example), they were already performed in a truncated way for that tour.

Sure, but that's just a reason why medleys are bad and why he should've picked material from other gigs. Sometimes it's better to do a limited number of things right than to try to cram as many things as possible in two hours.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on March 06, 2019, 05:50:21 AM
Quote from: WheyWaffles on March 04, 2019, 11:50:48 PM
Controversial opinion:

The main thing that needs to change with regard to DT's vocal situation: the lyrics coming out of James' mouth. After two musically unappealing-to-me albums, I'm finding a lot to like on this one, but my god, the lyrics... I'm fine with lyrics I can't take seriously. They can be dumb, but they have to be fun as well so I can play along. No one likes dumb and boring lyrics.

Dumb?
Are you talking about D/T or BC&SL?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 06, 2019, 07:53:50 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 06, 2019, 04:50:39 AM

Also, wasn't Metropolis and Learning to Live parts anyway of the encore medley that finished into The Crimson Sunset? it's not that MP cut them (as he did with Voices for example), they were already performed in a truncated way for that tour.

I don't believe Metropolis was. The part on the video was from an outdoor show and the entire song was played except the last minute and a half or so.

Quote from: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 04:41:42 AM

Yeah, but come on! It was bad enough that Metropolis and Learning to Live were not included on the Live in Tokyo VHS at the time. Five years later their classic status was firmly established and they deserved better than just having incomplete performances included on the next home video. And with LTL it was even worse as we only got a 4-minute excerpt. At least LTL got included in the LSFNY DVD not much later, but with Metropolis this bootleg-quality truncated version remained the only official video release until Score almost a decade later.

And if you're dealing with time constraints, does Burning My Soul really deserve more time than these two? Does an acoustic rendition of a never commercially released song like Cover My Eyes? I never understood those priorities.

All fair points, but I will not quibble with the inclusion of Cover My Eyes, since I had never heard that song before, and loved it immediately. I was like a kid in a candy store, getting an unexpected new (to me) song. :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on March 06, 2019, 11:40:56 AM
Cover My Eyes was one of my early favorites on the OIALT video. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nachtmerrie on March 06, 2019, 12:41:12 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on March 04, 2019, 10:42:15 AM
ADToE is my #1 album and I love FII.  I would play both before I&W.

ADToE could have been a top 5 album for me with a better mix/production. BAI is one of my favorite DT-songs but the live-version has so much more power.

It would love a remastered version. Maybe the 'Fascination Street' treatment' by Inside Out ;). So far I haven't heard a bad sounding album by Jens Bogren.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 12:53:39 PM
ADTOE has the best production possible for DT's style of music.

Come at me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 06, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 12:53:39 PM
ADTOE has the best production possible for DT's style of music.

Come at me.

Dry and muddy is the best production possible for DT's music? 

Interesting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CirclesSquared on March 06, 2019, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Bertielee on March 05, 2019, 11:27:10 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 05, 2019, 10:56:30 AM
Or ANY of the lyrics on d/t, for that matter.

Yeah, was wondering that as well. Dumb lyrics on D/T? No way!

B.Lee

Agreed. Dumb lyrics syndrome peaked with SC and BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 01:44:43 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 06, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 12:53:39 PM
ADTOE has the best production possible for DT's style of music.

Come at me.

Dry and muddy is the best production possible for DT's music? 

Interesting.

I like the dry mix for the songs that are on ADTOE. Wouldn't work that well on Systematic Chaos I guess.
I'd never describe the mix as muddy tho, I can hear every instrument perfectly and it's pretty crisp.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 06, 2019, 01:47:43 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 01:44:43 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 06, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: jakepriest on March 06, 2019, 12:53:39 PM
ADTOE has the best production possible for DT's style of music.

Come at me.

Dry and muddy is the best production possible for DT's music? 

Interesting.

I like the dry mix for the songs that are on ADTOE. Wouldn't work that well on Systematic Chaos I guess.
I'd never describe the mix as muddy tho, I can hear every instrument perfectly and it's pretty crisp.

I think it gets muddy during the most rocking parts.  I can still hear everything, but it's just not as clear as it should be. Call it murky, if you will. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 06, 2019, 02:03:12 PM
S2N and Room 137 are the worst songs on DoT, and toward the bottom of the songs from the past 4 albums.

I say this generally liking this album and the "Mangini era."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on March 06, 2019, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 04:41:42 AM
And if you're dealing with time constraints, does Burning My Soul really deserve more time than these two? Does an acoustic rendition of a never commercially released song like Cover My Eyes? I never understood those priorities.

Yes, they do deserve more time.  I'll take a never-released live/acoustic/rare version over something that already has a million versions available.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: PetFish on March 06, 2019, 02:03:41 PM
Yes, they do deserve more time.  I'll take a never-released live/acoustic/rare version over something that already has a million versions available.

This is 1998 we're talking about. There weren't a million versions of Metropolis available on video at the time - there weren't *any*, actually. And LTL hadn't even been on a live CD before.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 02:09:58 PM
Most of my DT listening these days is limited to the Mangini era. Not sure if that qualifies as an "opinion", but it might be seen as controversial, right?  ;D

Sure, I still hold my big personal favorites I&W, SfaM and Six Degrees in high regard, but I've played those albums to death at the time. The new stuff may not reach quite as spectacular peaks musically, but the low points have also become far less problematic than they were in the years before. The albums seem more consistent both stylistically and quality-wise and the songs are usually more coherent and concise. And while I do think Mangini sounds a bit uninvolved and stiff here and there (though considerably less so on the new one!), he has his strong moments as well and his drum parts just sound a lot fresher overall. While his fills may not be as memorable as Portnoy's were, the upside of it all is that his playing has remained largely unpredictable to me, which I see as a very good thing for someone who has by now recorded over 60 songs (5.5 hours of material) with the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 07, 2019, 07:54:55 AM
Barstool Warrior is a great song, but that last verse seriously mars the ending IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 07, 2019, 08:29:40 AM
Quote from: rumborak on March 07, 2019, 07:54:55 AM
Barstool Warrior is a great song, but that last verse seriously mars the ending IMO.

It's so Losing Time / Grand Finale
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on March 07, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
I figured I'd post this here, because after reading these boards over the past few weeks, I now realize that I am in the vast minority here - which, quite honestly, bums me out.

I was so, so excited for this album. But after about fifteen listens, I think it's time to admit defeat here. D/T does absolutely nothing for me. It is definitely going to go to the very bottom of the pile.

I LOVED DTOE, I liked DT12, I am still attempting to understand TA (although, the 12 song playlist I made from it is very enjoyable when I'm in the mood), but this new record is just an abysmal mess. The production/mastering is downright offensive to my ears. And there is nothing here for me to come back to.

I could post a long list of gripes, but the rest of you are obviously digging it and I see no need to rain on anyone's parade.

I'm sure I'll come back and try again in a few months, but I suspect that this is not going to be a grower.

I was very lukewarm on TA, but after hearing D/T, I find myself enjoying that record a ton more.

The band made a great album, just not the album for me. Oh well.

So there you go, that's my controversial opinion :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on March 07, 2019, 11:09:36 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on March 07, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
I figured I'd post this here, because after reading these boards over the past few weeks, I now realize that I am in the vast minority here - which, quite honestly, bums me out.

I was so, so excited for this album. But after about fifteen listens, I think it's time to admit defeat here. D/T does absolutely nothing for me. It is definitely going to go to the very bottom of the pile.

I LOVED DTOE, I liked DT12, I am still attempting to understand TA (although, the 12 song playlist I made from it is very enjoyable when I'm in the mood), but this new record is just an abysmal mess. The production/mastering is downright offensive to my ears. And there is nothing here for me to come back to.

I could post a long list of gripes, but the rest of you are obviously digging it and I see no need to rain on anyone's parade.

I'm sure I'll come back and try again in a few months, but I suspect that this is not going to be a grower.

I was very lukewarm on TA, but after hearing D/T, I find myself enjoying that record a ton more.

The band made a great album, just not the album for me. Oh well.

So there you go, that's my controversial opinion :P

This is indeed controversial, but fair...and expressed in a fair way as well :)
Quite unusual in the Internet age, so appreciated..

I am also lukewarm about D/T, but there are many things I like so I am not as negative as you...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 07, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on March 07, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
...

So there you go, that's my controversial opinion :P

I actually wanna know what's your disappoinment about DoT?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on March 07, 2019, 05:42:54 PM
Quote from: Kyo on March 06, 2019, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: PetFish on March 06, 2019, 02:03:41 PM
Yes, they do deserve more time.  I'll take a never-released live/acoustic/rare version over something that already has a million versions available.

This is 1998 we're talking about. There weren't a million versions of Metropolis available on video at the time - there weren't *any*, actually. And LTL hadn't even been on a live CD before.

Just admit you hate "Cover My Eyes" and "Burning My Soul".  Would you be this mad if they cut out the ending jam on "To Live Forever" or removed "Anna Lee" or the acoustic "Speak To Me"?  Personally, I don't care for any of the "bar" stuff they included with the special guests, but I'm not mad about it, I'm happy they have a few once-in-a-lifetime and/or rare things they can include for other DT fans.

So what if they dropped the last 90 seconds of Metro1 in order to help include other unique things on a now-dead time-restricted home video format.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Demolition on March 07, 2019, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on March 07, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
I figured I'd post this here, because after reading these boards over the past few weeks, I now realize that I am in the vast minority here - which, quite honestly, bums me out.

I was so, so excited for this album. But after about fifteen listens, I think it's time to admit defeat here. D/T does absolutely nothing for me. It is definitely going to go to the very bottom of the pile.

I LOVED DTOE, I liked DT12, I am still attempting to understand TA (although, the 12 song playlist I made from it is very enjoyable when I'm in the mood), but this new record is just an abysmal mess. The production/mastering is downright offensive to my ears. And there is nothing here for me to come back to.

I could post a long list of gripes, but the rest of you are obviously digging it and I see no need to rain on anyone's parade.

I'm sure I'll come back and try again in a few months, but I suspect that this is not going to be a grower.

I was very lukewarm on TA, but after hearing D/T, I find myself enjoying that record a ton more.

The band made a great album, just not the album for me. Oh well.

So there you go, that's my controversial opinion :P

I happen to fully agree with you so far.  Nothing sticks out in my mind either.  When I listen to the disc, I like a lot of the songs but they just don't stick in my mind after they are over.  I don't know what it is but something is missing for my taste. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: romdrums on March 07, 2019, 09:54:02 PM
Viper King is better than Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on March 07, 2019, 10:17:26 PM
Quote from: romdrums on March 07, 2019, 09:54:02 PM
Viper King is better than Octavarium.

I like Viper King...but that statement is definitely controversial.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 12:17:11 AM
Quote from: PetFish on March 07, 2019, 05:42:54 PM
Just admit you hate "Cover My Eyes" and "Burning My Soul". 

I actually like Cover My Eyes quite a bit. Burning My Soul, on the other hand, is generally seen as one of their worst songs not just by me and the Bataclan footage isn't exactly great visually, either.

Quote
Would you be this mad if they cut out the ending jam on "To Live Forever" or removed "Anna Lee" or the acoustic "Speak To Me"?

No, because none of those are anywhere close to the mega classic status of Metropolis - which has been my point from the start. And To Live Forever, which was just a B-side to start with, had already been on the previous home video release, so this was particularly puzzling given the lack of time for other things.
 

Quote
So what if they dropped the last 90 seconds of Metro1 in order to help include other unique things on a now-dead time-restricted home video format.

Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on March 08, 2019, 03:37:34 AM
Here is another one from me.

The Astonishing is MUCH better than D/T.

I think it's better on almost all dimensions: songwriting, production, melodies, choruses, solos, innovation,...
In terms of individual performances:

 - James: TA >>> D/T
 - Jordan: TA >>> D/T
 - JM: TA > D/T
 - JP: TA= D/T
 - MM: TA < D/T (but still his performance in TA is VERY good)

The only other thing I prefer in D/T are the lyrics, but this is an unfair comparison...:)

I don't think D/T is a bad album at all, and I understand that they moved back to the "safe path" in order to win back the fans disappointed by TA, but I really hope that in the future they will be willing to take same risk again.

I really cannot understand why there was some much "hate" for TA...IMHO, if they had replaced the 3-4 "Dungeons and Dragons" naiveties with 4-5 minutes a-la- Pale Blue Dot The Astonishing could have equaled Images.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 08, 2019, 06:32:58 AM
The Astonishing will always be one of my favorite DT albums!  :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 08, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
Quote from: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 12:17:11 AM


Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 08, 2019, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 08, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
Quote from: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 12:17:11 AM


Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

So, the first “proper” one was LALP? Mindblown.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: porcacultor on March 08, 2019, 11:30:16 AM
I don't think it's really that controversial, but...

Moment of Betrayal sounds so much like Judas Priest to me (in a great way, not derivative at all!), it's not even funny. If some parts were "simplified", as it were, it'd be stage-ready for them!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on March 08, 2019, 11:34:45 AM
Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on March 08, 2019, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: darkshade on March 08, 2019, 11:34:45 AM
Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?
I like MP where's he's at right now, he's killing it in The Neal Morse Band!  DT is doing just fine with MM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on March 08, 2019, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on March 08, 2019, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: darkshade on March 08, 2019, 11:34:45 AM
Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?
I like MP where's he's at right now, he's killing it in The Neal Morse Band!  DT is doing just fine with MM.

NM and Transatlantic is the only thing he's been doing that interests me, which he did while in DT anyway.
I want more than 'fine'.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 06:21:29 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 08, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

Now consider that it's not just Mike - we could've had video of Metropolis (and Learning to Live, too!) with Kevin Moore on keys. It's almost certain they recorded the full evening that was used for Live in Tokyo and they even released an additional song from it (Another Day) on the Score DVD some 15 years later, but these two have stayed in the can all these years and are unlikely to surface now given DT's sad lack of interest in archival releases these days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on March 08, 2019, 08:13:20 PM
Quote from: erciccio on March 08, 2019, 03:37:34 AM
- James: TA >>> D/T
 - Jordan: TA >>> D/T
 - JM: TA > D/T
 - JP: TA= D/T
 - MM: TA < D/T (but still his performance in TA is VERY good)

I really disagree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 08, 2019, 08:38:24 PM
JM is better in TA than D/T?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 08, 2019, 10:35:10 PM
Quote from: darkshade on March 08, 2019, 11:34:45 AM
Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?

The only controversial thing here is than comma. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erciccio on March 09, 2019, 06:20:14 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 08, 2019, 08:38:24 PM
JM is better in TA than D/T?

Yes...and you were my guide to JM in the astonishing with the post attached...  :mehlin

Let me get this out of the way. If you say that John Myung is inaudible in this record, buy better equipment. Myung is amazing in this record, specially doing the duty of the bass player to give the songs a solid foundation. My top 10 Astonishing bass moments:

10. Begin Again outro (3:15 onwards) - Myung plays a nice almost danceable groove that complements Mangini's equally groovy drums.

9. A Savior in the Square intro - Myung shines in so many slow moments in this record and this is one prime example. I love his choice of notes, especially his counterpoints when he goes to notes in higher octaves, to support Petrucci's beautiful solo.

8. The Gift of Music bridge (1:07 to 1:37) - this song has excellent bass playing throughout but Myung shines in this part, almost singing a counter-melody to James.

7. Our New World second guitar solo (2:22 to 3:03) - just like Mangini's, Myung's playing here is elegant, doing his part to support Pettruci's beautiful solo. I love love love the end part, when he mirrored Petrucci's line at just the right moment, I still have goosebumps when listening to it.

6. Ravenskill outro (4:55 onwards) - working in unison with Petrucci's guitar and Mangini's bass drum, Myung helped make the ending sound so epic.

5. Moment of Betrayal unison (3:50 to 4:07) and outro (5:25 onwards) - During the unison part, we had a bass shredding Myung sighting. The outro has Myung playing like a boss.

4. When Your Time Has Come - this is my surprise pick. It took me some listens to realize that it was Myung carrying the song up to the second chorus, because Petrucci was playing acoustic guitar up to that point. A good example of substance over form in bass playing in a slow song.

3. My Last Farewell instrumentals (1:31 to 1:45 and 2:36 to 3:20) - I am almost sure that this escaped the radar of many, but Myung was killer for the whole song. But his work in the instrumentals is really top notch once you realize that that "flowing" sound you are hearing is actually the bass guitar.

2. A New Beginning instrumental and outro (3:47 onwards) - the instrumental really just had the classic prog Myung, I really smiled when I first listened to it. But the kicker is the outro. That groove. Myung knows how to groove.

1. A Life Left Behind - predictable choice, especially because of the amazing intro. But what might escape your radar is his work when the vocals kick in, which is also amazing. Beautiful.
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Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 08:30:29 AM
David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 09, 2019, 08:52:29 AM
Quote from: erciccio on March 09, 2019, 06:20:14 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 08, 2019, 08:38:24 PM
JM is better in TA than D/T?

Yes...and you were my guide to JM in the astonishing with the post attached...  :mehlin


Yes, JM was amazing in TA as I posted, but I think his playing in D/T is better. Maybe I should do a top ten Myung D/T moments. :-P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 09, 2019, 10:13:54 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 08:30:29 AM
David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Lol... I mean TTT is kind of a silly/dated song but you find it so offensive as to ruin their best album and turn you off to a drummer’s career?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on March 09, 2019, 03:56:25 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.

Jeez, man, tell us how you *really* feel.  I think you're playing a dangerous game blurring the line between controversial and bashing so watch out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on March 09, 2019, 06:06:58 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 08:30:29 AM
David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Your post reminds me of two DT songs: Status Seeker and The Looking Glass. I think you know why.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on March 09, 2019, 06:23:02 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 08, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
Quote from: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 12:17:11 AM


Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

I was gonna ask about Live Scenes from New York but I looked it up and the DVD doesn't have all the tracks. It's really a fucking shame that they couldn't put out a super DVD edition with all the tracks that were on the 3 CD live album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 10, 2019, 01:19:20 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.

I, myself, don't like Mike Portnoy either, even when he was in the band. Afterwards things were going bad too. But I can't deny his amazing and original performance on SDOIT and SFAM. He surely added some character to DT's musical identity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 10, 2019, 01:25:45 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 09, 2019, 08:30:29 AM
David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Nah. Even if Pull Me Under was Dream Theater's breakthrough hit, for many, what made Dream Theater THE Dream Theater was Metropolis Pt. 1, and Portnoy's drumming was such a big element in that signature sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 10, 2019, 03:12:59 AM
Controversial opinion;

Awake is an amazing album, possibly their best but it’s only weak point is JLB’s “over-singing”.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an amazing exercise in vocal performance but it’s all a bit...much. I spun the record for a friend the other night and he enjoyed it but one of his critiques was, “the singer needs to calm down a bit”. I kind of agree. Of course I don’t blame JLB, he didn’t write all the vocal melodies.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 10, 2019, 03:25:47 AM
Hmmm...it depends on the song. Maybe for CIAW, IF, and 6:00. But for The Mirror and Scarred, the vocals are warranted given the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 10, 2019, 03:47:29 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 10, 2019, 03:12:59 AM
Controversial opinion;

Awake is an amazing album, possibly their best but it’s only weak point is JLB’s “over-singing”.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an amazing exercise in vocal performance but it’s all a bit...much. I spun the record for a friend the other night and he enjoyed it but one of his critiques was, “the singer needs to calm down a bit”. I kind of agree. Of course I don’t blame JLB, he didn’t write all the vocal melodies.

He mostly oversings on live, especially back in his prime (Which I think he destroyed his voice by doing this and food accident was just a cherry on the cake.) But I don't think he oversang on the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 10, 2019, 10:19:26 AM
Quote from: erwinrafael on March 10, 2019, 03:25:47 AM
Hmmm...it depends on the song. Maybe for CIAW, IF, and 6:00. But for The Mirror and Scarred, the vocals are warranted given the lyrics.

I’d throw Voices in there. When I mean oversing, I mean it as in spending a bit too much time in that upper register. You can strip the paint off your walls with some of those vocals.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 15, 2019, 04:02:10 AM
I don't know if it's the right place to talk about this but here it is.

Do you think LaBrie would sound more powerfull in this age if he didn't have food accident?

My thought is he would still sound like he sounds this time because of age factor but also he would still have that punch in his voice but that's a minor thing and can't change much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 15, 2019, 04:07:45 AM
Hard to say. He basically recovered by 2005-6, and in 2007 I heard him nailing the high note in Learning to Live, so the power was there. I guess it comes down to age, singing tecniques, and how he takes care of his voice that determines how it all goes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 15, 2019, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I get where you are coming from.  I will quibble a bit with part of that, and here's why:  I don't think he was showing signs of losing range prior to that.  But he was struggling at times because of the factors you mention (technique, touring schedule, the demanding nature of the songs, etc.).  He was, at times, showing some wear and tear.  But I don't think he was showing signs of losing range at that stage.  His range was still spectacular.  But that said, where I think you and I ultimately agree, is that that was not sustainable, and if he continued, he almost assuredly would have started showing signs of losing range in the future.  And you're right--the accident just exacerbated things.

Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate...

I agree.  I've often expressed similar opinions.  I still rank it near the bottom of the DT discography.  But it's a fine album with, IMO, a couple of great songs and a LOT of great moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on March 15, 2019, 11:45:48 AM
Quote from: Herrick on March 09, 2019, 06:23:02 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 08, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
Quote from: Kyo on March 08, 2019, 12:17:11 AM


Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

I was gonna ask about Live Scenes from New York but I looked it up and the DVD doesn't have all the tracks. It's really a fucking shame that they couldn't put out a super DVD edition with all the tracks that were on the 3 CD live album.

They do play the songs on the dvd, also with some clips. Like The Mirror when JLB is wearing a hat. They're on the behind the scenes and photo gallery.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 15, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 15, 2019, 11:44:48 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I get where you are coming from.  I will quibble a bit with part of that, and here's why:  I don't think he was showing signs of losing range prior to that.  But he was struggling at times because of the factors you mention (technique, touring schedule, the demanding nature of the songs, etc.).  He was, at times, showing some wear and tear.  But I don't think he was showing signs of losing range at that stage.  His range was still spectacular.  But that said, where I think you and I ultimately agree, is that that was not sustainable, and if he continued, he almost assuredly would have started showing signs of losing range in the future.  And you're right--the accident just exacerbated things.

I disagree. Or at least I wouldn't put it that lightly. Maybe it wasn't sustainable (though he himself said that prior to the accident his range was actually improving). But let's say the way he did things would have deteriorated his voice. If that started happening, and he noticed that it was happening, he could have prevented it, started taking better care of his voice, or dialed it back in certain aspects, and retained everything he had for the long term. And if he hadn't, that deterioration would have taken years to show its full impact, and he would have had plenty of opportunity to prevent it.
But the accident, it allowed no such opportunity. It completely derailed things. Yes, the fact that he was supposed to not sing AT ALL, and yet, he went out on tour the following month, probably only cemented the damage, but the bulk of it was already done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 15, 2019, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I agree with Bosk's quibble, and I think the answer to the original question is that, in the absence of the food poisoning incident, JLB's voice would still be about what it is today.


Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.

I don't "hate" the album (and I'm honestly not sure I've ever read any statement that anyone "hates" it).  However, it is in my bottom 5 of DT albums, and I don't think there's much of anything that's "fun" about it.  I love and always have loved Wither.  It's a really well-written song.  Also, my old band had a similarly themed song about writers' block, so that give it a little bump for me.  ANTR and AROP are fine, but neither has had any staying power for me (I do agree about the "beautiful agony" section, though).  TSF is fine, but it is largely a re-hashing of ground covered on prior songs, one of which (TDS) I find to be just "meh" and the other of which (Repentance) is a bottom-5 DT song for me.  TBOT is another bottom-5 song for me.  TCOT is far and away the best song on the album, but it is not without flaws (as per my commentary on the "rank the DT epics" thread).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 15, 2019, 04:53:54 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 15, 2019, 04:07:45 AM
Hard to say. He basically recovered by 2005-6, and in 2007 I heard him nailing the high note in Learning to Live, so the power was there. I guess it comes down to age, singing tecniques, and how he takes care of his voice that determines how it all goes.
I think JLB's voice now is about same as it would have been without the accident. The real tragedy of the accident is that just as soon as he recovered from it, age started catching up with him, what we were essentially robbed of is JLB's entire prime as a musician. He's was great in his early prime, and he has great moments today and has had a bunch of great moments, especially in the studio, in his guest performances, and on great vocal nights all throughout his career - some of which have been professionally recorded, some only as bootlegs.

But.

In 1992 and especially 1993 (Marco can testify if he's reading the thread, and any other bootleg afficionado), he's simultaneously both amazingly powerful and all over the place most of the time. He doesn't sound bad, except on a rare off night, but he doesn't have the maturity to properly measure the grit to clean ratio and all the other stuff he was juggling. He's great to listen to, no doubt. Probably the best metal singer in those years whose name wasn't Dickinson, Halford or Tate. But not what I would call absolute prime just yet.

In 1994, on the Rudess experiment bootleg. The beginning of absolute prime. He is out of shape (he says so), takes a few songs to warm up. But then he absolutely murders the rest of the set. It's everything he needs to be, and more. Yes, there's tiny imperfections, yes, it's a live environment, but he does everything exactly the way it should be done. He knows what to do.

And then the accident robs us of ten years of that - sure, with all the natural highs and lows he would have had, maybe other injuries, other factors. And there's no use crying over spilled milk. But as a huge fan of JLB's voice, it's something that's hard for me to think about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 16, 2019, 05:52:11 AM
I'm with you Mora, I try to not think about it too much because the idea that one of the very best singers of the scene got such an unfair and undeserved bad luck is just hard to contemplate.

Quote from: Volante99 on March 15, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.

The "problem" with this album for me is that.... well, on one hand I agree with you, my opinion of the songs is basically yours. The thing is that the stuff you described is not what makes up all the songs - there's a lot of bloat that weighs them down. The copy and paste solo sections. The uncoherent mess that becomes Nightmare after the end of the Beautiful Agony section. Lyrics not at the top of their usual game.

Ironically "Black Clouds and silver linings" describe for me nearly all the songs - YES, they are good BUT this thing here and that thing there feels forced, unnecessary, or long for the sake of being long. This is the album most of all that would have needed an external producer, to keep them focused and help them trim down the fat. Also the infamous debate about what to do with the Day after day part...... when Portnoy posted clips of the variations they came up with before settling for the final outcome.... THAT's where precisely a producer, a professional, could have weighed in and told them what to do, just like Kevin Shirley righteously told them "listen, there's no point in going off the rails during a concise rocking song like Burning My Soul, just split the middle section and have it as an instrumental. With the unintended good consequence of them writing the latter part of Hell's Kitchen to finish into Lines in the Sand which is the best part of the album.

I don't know how I would have arranged A Nightmare to Remember, I'm just a music fan. An external producer whose job is coordinating musicians would have.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on March 20, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
When you think about it, Octavarium is basically a really long ballad
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 21, 2019, 01:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ninjabait on March 20, 2019, 09:02:56 PM
When you think about it, Octavarium is basically a really long ballad

Kinda? That middle section though? But anyway, both the beginning and ending of that song are very beautiful and some absolute top DT moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kociol21 on March 21, 2019, 03:57:59 PM
My first post here so why not start with controversial opinions. I don't think I have many, but few album placements are different than most people's. I think that Awake is one their weakest albums and IaW is meh, I value it more as true start of their career than for it's music. The only really good song there is Metropolis. On the other hand I think BC&SL is their top 5 and still way better than anything they did post Portnoy. I'll pretend Wither doesn't exist here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 21, 2019, 04:02:05 PM
There is not a single word I could agree with you but welcome to the board anyway.  :tup

But Awake is the best them  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 21, 2019, 07:38:29 PM
I used to think Awake was the best of them, but now it's some of the worst
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 23, 2019, 05:25:37 AM
speaking of Awake, I like the production of the album, but that's the only thing I like on that album, apart from what James does most of the time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 23, 2019, 05:41:22 AM
I used to think Awake was the best of them, I still do.

SFAM slightly > Awake slightly > Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 23, 2019, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 23, 2019, 05:41:22 AM
I used to think Awake was the best of them, I still do.

SFAM slightly > Awake slightly > Images and Words.

I would agree with this. I think those 3 are without a doubt DT’s greatest achievements, but probably interchangeable depending on my mood.

As a guitar player, I feel Awake contains JP’s best playing. He was really on fire on that album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: YOWspotter on March 24, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
My controversial opinion revolves around JR. I think his playing should be more or less limited to "atmospheric" support. When he noodles around and/or takes the lead I generally get distracted and annoyed. I find the sound... childish. Like in PBD right after the awesome intro, from 1:48 to 2:03, his playing is so distracting from that great riffing and he's way too prominent in the mix. It ruins that part for me almost completely. Sorry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
Quote from: YOWspotter on March 24, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
My controversial opinion revolves around JR. I think his playing should be more or less limited to "atmospheric" support. When he noodles around and/or takes the lead I generally get distracted and annoyed. I find the sound... childish. Like in PBD right after the awesome intro, from 1:48 to 2:03, his playing is so distracting from that great riffing and he's way too prominent in the mix. It ruins that part for me almost completely. Sorry.

I would agree, some of his leads (and sound choices), especially over heavy riffs, just don’t fit the vibe of the song. My theory is that he’s just not a HUGE metal fan and has a hard time doing appropriate accompaniment with JP. This maybe sacrilege but I feel Kevin Moore had some of the same issues back in the day but at least was a bit more tasteful in his sound choices.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 24, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
I would agree, some of his leads (and sound choices), especially over heavy riffs, just don’t fit the vibe of the song. My theory is that he’s just not a HUGE metal fan and has a hard time doing appropriate accompaniment with JP. This maybe sacrilege but I feel Kevin Moore had some of the same issues back in the day but at least was a bit more tasteful in his sound choices.

I hope you're not talking about Awake, because those were some of the worst sound choices I've ever heard. The beginning of Erotomania is grating to listen to because of those patches. And 6:00 and Caught In A Web were nothing to write home about either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 07:27:34 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 24, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
I would agree, some of his leads (and sound choices), especially over heavy riffs, just don’t fit the vibe of the song. My theory is that he’s just not a HUGE metal fan and has a hard time doing appropriate accompaniment with JP. This maybe sacrilege but I feel Kevin Moore had some of the same issues back in the day but at least was a bit more tasteful in his sound choices.

I hope you're not talking about Awake, because those were some of the worst sound choices I've ever heard. The beginning of Erotomania is grating to listen to because of those patches. And 6:00 and Caught In A Web were nothing to write home about either.

Personally, I don’t mind the patches for 6:00 (I actually love that sound on the solo) or Caught in a Web. They are a bit dated if anything, but ALOT of that album sounds dated. I agree, though, Erotomania is not a good sound. Lie would probably be a better song if they had just removed most of the keys all together.

The question is, though, do you think JR would have done better patches? Ehhh I’m not sure...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 24, 2019, 07:42:47 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 07:27:34 PM
Personally, I don’t mind the patches for 6:00 (I actually love that sound on the solo) or Caught in a Web. They are a bit dated if anything, but ALOT of that album sounds dated. I agree, though, Erotomania is not a good sound. Lie would probably be a better song if they had just removed most of the keys all together.

The question is, though, do you think JR would have done better patches? Ehhh I’m not sure...

Well, the stuff that he uses when playing those songs live is much better. Granted, it probably has more to do with how it's recorded in that particular setting, but either way, it's more palatable, and sounds a bit softer and warmer generally when he plays it live, which makes those songs a lot more enjoyable for me.

I never had any issue's with JR's patches. Aside from maybe the occasional overuse of his "snarling pig" tone, but that's more an issue of the fact that he doubles the guitar, and I prefer hearing the distorted guitar tone as it is, on those chunky riffs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on March 26, 2019, 08:52:29 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 24, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
Quote from: YOWspotter on March 24, 2019, 05:55:36 PM
My controversial opinion revolves around JR. I think his playing should be more or less limited to "atmospheric" support. When he noodles around and/or takes the lead I generally get distracted and annoyed. I find the sound... childish. Like in PBD right after the awesome intro, from 1:48 to 2:03, his playing is so distracting from that great riffing and he's way too prominent in the mix. It ruins that part for me almost completely. Sorry.

I would agree, some of his leads (and sound choices), especially over heavy riffs, just don’t fit the vibe of the song. My theory is that he’s just not a HUGE metal fan and has a hard time doing appropriate accompaniment with JP. This maybe sacrilege but I feel Kevin Moore had some of the same issues back in the day but at least was a bit more tasteful in his sound choices.

I think some of the sounds Moore used were the epitome of lame keyboard sounds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 26, 2019, 08:55:39 PM
Gave a cursory listen to all of DT's live albums today. Not taking the set list in to account, Live Scenes is by far the worst. It's not bad, it just sounds the worst. I can't explain it any better than that. And while the live performance makes for a cool DVD, is that stage really that tiny?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 27, 2019, 06:27:50 AM
I don't think Live Scenes is that bad as a live album. As a DVD it's terrible, who they hell thought those effects were good? I think for '99 those were terrible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on March 27, 2019, 06:36:28 AM
Quote from: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.


Ooof.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 27, 2019, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.

I read your username as JustinBieber so it makes sense.  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 07:06:28 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on March 27, 2019, 06:43:37 AM
Quote from: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.

I read your username as JustinBieber so it makes sense.  :coolio

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 27, 2019, 07:16:03 AM
Quote from: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.
I don't know if they're bottom three for me, but I'd have liked them quite a bit more if MM had played on them already (and TTT had been excluded. Such a strange song really IMHO). I've not listened to both of these for longer than MM is in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 07:36:12 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2019, 06:27:50 AM
I don't think Live Scenes is that bad as a live album. As a DVD it's terrible...

If by "terrible," you mean "one of their best!" then I am in complete agreement with you.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on March 27, 2019, 08:20:20 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 27, 2019, 07:16:03 AM
Quote from: JusticeBringer on March 26, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
Both Images and Scenes are bottom three albums.
I don't know if they're bottom three for me, but I'd have liked them quite a bit more if MM had played on them already (and TTT had been excluded. Such a strange song really IMHO). I've not listened to both of these for longer than MM is in the band.

Take The Time was my favorite song in the Imahes and Words set in their last tour. Mangini killed it in that song. It really is like I&W's equivalent to D/T's S2n.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on March 27, 2019, 08:20:46 AM
I don’t understand the love for the Live Scenes DVD. I am a big fan of James - even have my pic on his Pirate Ship web site. But he is off key quite often and it just bugs me. From what I have listened to, it seems as he has aged, he has learned to manage that much better.  I would rather listen to Chaos in Motion - and do quite often on runs/bike rides.   Just my opinion.  :smiley:

p.s. The “Live Scenes” I saw a few nights ago I enjoy much more!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 08:44:00 AM
I haven't seen / heard Live Scenes in quite some time, but I remember a great performance from James. Did he hit all the high notes? absolutely not. Did he work around some of the most difficult passages? more than once. But I remember his tone was nice and warm and he gave a heartfelt performance, with many great moments (such as the vocalizing ad the end of Through Her Eyes, shivers) that made more than up for avoiding the high note of Learning to Live or not shouting all the way through Voices' second verse.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
Live Scenes is very cool! I just wish they included the whole concert on the video/DVD and that they didn't use those ugly animations and MP's "SFAM movie" footage in the song videos. Other than that, it is a very good live album, I used to watch it all the time when I first discovered DT 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 08:44:00 AM
I haven't seen / heard Live Scenes in quite some time, but I remember a great performance from James. Did he hit all the high notes? absolutely not. Did he work around some of the most difficult passages? more than once. But I remember his tone was nice and warm and he gave a heartfelt performance, with many great moments (such as the vocalizing ad the end of Through Her Eyes, shivers) that made more than up for avoiding the high note of Learning to Live or not shouting all the way through Voices' second verse.

That about sums it up for me.  Were there a few moments out of the entire 2 1/2 hour show where he was off key?  Yeah.  Those few isolated moments don't take anything away from what is otherwise a stellar performance.  If I chose to ding the entire show for those few moments, I don't think there are many rock/metal performance that I could give a high rating to.  I will say that I have always noticed that he is more shaking when the show first starts, and then he really gets going a few songs in when his voice warms up.  But that's not abnormal either.  Again, I'd have to practically give up going to concerts if that overly bothered me.  I've heard Russell Allen, Floor Jansen, and Simone Simons, to name a few, have rougher starts in what otherwise turned out to be pretty great overall performances.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on March 27, 2019, 09:08:40 AM
I actually prefer the way JLB's voice sounds on the majority of LSFNY, especially on songs like Home and ACOS
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.

That version for ACOS is perfect, except for the weird themes they played in the middle of it (Jordan's ragtime/circus thing, JM's baseball theme and JP's Simpsons theme).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.

That version for ACOS is perfect, except for the weird themes they played in the middle of it (Jordan's ragtime/circus thing, JM's baseball theme and JP's Simpsons theme).

That's just fine. It's live, it's supposed to be a show where you can also have some fun, and I applaud them for going wacky within one of their most acclaimed and "serious" songs.

It's in the studio where those things just shouldn't happen (see the circus break in Endless Sacrifice which is completely gratuitous).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on March 27, 2019, 09:33:07 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.

That version for ACOS is perfect, except for the weird themes they played in the middle of it (Jordan's ragtime/circus thing, JM's baseball theme and JP's Simpsons theme).

That's one of favorites parts of the track  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Curious Orange on March 27, 2019, 09:37:35 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.

That version for ACOS is perfect, except for the weird themes they played in the middle of it (Jordan's ragtime/circus thing, JM's baseball theme and JP's Simpsons theme).

I wish they'd do that sort of thing more often, the snippets of other songs on OIALT, rearranging songs, etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on March 27, 2019, 10:26:57 AM
Well, since I never, not once, have had any agreement on my dislike of Live Scenes (said with much love to all), there is only one thing to do.

Listen Again!

I admit I never finished the DVD (although I started listening again a couple times and never got that far through it), and should remember my own advice about DT.  Give it a few spins!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on March 27, 2019, 08:20:46 AM
From what I have listened to, it seems as he has aged, he has learned to manage that much better. 

James' performance never bothered my while watching the DVD, nor did him not going after the crazy notes. It was only listening to the audio only that it seemed not awesome (while still being great). Yes it seems like he manages his performances better now. Back then it seemed like sometimes he was just not knowing what notes to try and hit, or just going for it and hoping for the best.

Quote from: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
Live Scenes is very cool! I just wish they included the whole concert on the video/DVD and that they didn't use those ugly animations and MP's "SFAM movie" footage in the song videos. Other than that, it is a very good live album, I used to watch it all the time when I first discovered DT 10 years ago.

2002-ish was start of a good ~5 year run where my fandom of the band was at its zenith. And this DVD played a large part in that. The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 27, 2019, 11:47:19 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 07:36:12 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2019, 06:27:50 AM
I don't think Live Scenes is that bad as a live album. As a DVD it's terrible...

If by "terrible," you mean "one of their best!" then I am in complete agreement with you.  :tup

I was thinking the same thing.  I absolutely love the DVD (the commentary track pushes it from great to awesome).  I don't listen the album too often, but that's only because I don't listen to live albums very much.  In fact, I haven't bought any of DT's live albums since Budokan (although I have all of them on DVD).


Quote from: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 08:44:00 AM
I haven't seen / heard Live Scenes in quite some time, but I remember a great performance from James. Did he hit all the high notes? absolutely not. Did he work around some of the most difficult passages? more than once. But I remember his tone was nice and warm and he gave a heartfelt performance, with many great moments (such as the vocalizing ad the end of Through Her Eyes, shivers) that made more than up for avoiding the high note of Learning to Live or not shouting all the way through Voices' second verse.

Agree on all counts (except that I watched the DVD quite recently).  The energy of that show really came through.


This is probably the opposite of controversial, but I listened to Repentance all the way through -- probably for the first time in a decade -- this morning on my way into work.  It confirmed for me that there is virtually nothing redeeming about that song and that it is worthy of its place in my bottom 5 of DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 05:13:58 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on March 27, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 09:19:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on March 27, 2019, 09:10:20 AM
Yeah, that version of ACOS is far and away my favorite, and the vocals are a big reason why.

That version for ACOS is perfect, except for the weird themes they played in the middle of it (Jordan's ragtime/circus thing, JM's baseball theme and JP's Simpsons theme).

That's just fine. It's live, it's supposed to be a show where you can also have some fun, and I applaud them for going wacky within one of their most acclaimed and "serious" songs.

It's in the studio where those things just shouldn't happen (see the circus break in Endless Sacrifice which is completely gratuitous).

I really like that part in Endless Sacrifice :lol

I generally think that if you're going to change the studio version of the song while playing it live, it should be an improved version, and those parts in ACOS live don't sound like an improvement for me, they come out of nowhere and leave you feeling like "what the... just happened?" (not in a good way). But, yeah, opinions lol


Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
2002-ish was start of a good ~5 year run where my fandom of the band was at its zenith. And this DVD played a large part in that. The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?

I think I read somewhere that MP directed it or something, but I have no idea, I wasn't a fan around that time (I was barely 5 years old :lol).


Quote from: pg1067 on March 27, 2019, 11:47:19 AM
This is probably the opposite of controversial, but I listened to Repentance all the way through -- probably for the first time in a decade -- this morning on my way into work. It confirmed for me that there is virtually nothing redeeming about that song and that it is worthy of its place in my bottom 5 of DT songs.

The guitar solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
The first half of Repentance is quite good, up until the lame apology section and the annoyingly vocalized Promises.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on March 27, 2019, 06:57:00 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2019, 06:27:50 AM
I don't think Live Scenes is that bad as a live album. As a DVD it's terrible, who they hell thought those effects were good? I think for '99 those were terrible.

It's all Portnoy's doing.  It's in the commentary.  I think it all has to do with MP being overly-excited about this amazing show that he got lost in the possibilities of what can be done with editing and wanting the final product to be especially special.

I'd be surprised if he looks at it now and thinks "wtf was I doing here", I definitely look back at my early websites, graphics, and photography and think "wtf was I doing here".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 27, 2019, 07:11:41 PM
I don’t mind the speaking parts in Repentance. It’s not a great song but it’s ceetqinly not amongst their worst in my opinion. It works within the context of 12 step suite, especially.

I only wonder how they got Mikael Akerfeldt to do a speaking part as by all accounts he is not a fan of Dream Theater or Mike Portnoy lol. (yes I do know they’ve done some touring together)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 27, 2019, 07:25:35 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 27, 2019, 07:11:41 PM
I only wonder how they got Mikael Akerfeldt to do a speaking part as by all accounts he is not a fan of Dream Theater or Mike Portnoy lol. (yes I do know they’ve done some touring together)

You mean Steven Wilson? He's the one on record saying he doesn't like DT or MP. Akerfeldt is apparently good friends with MP and the DT guys, he even guested twice on DT shows (for Repentance and ANTR).

Also, this is from Wacken 2015:

(https://scontent.flim12-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11822718_10152917830662181_3718981402498864888_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent.flim12-1.fna&oh=78167a408938a2921195d769145e2a56&oe=5D4119D7)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 28, 2019, 01:35:21 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
The first half of Repentance is quite good, up until the lame apology section and the annoyingly vocalized Promises.

:iagree:

I love SC as it is, but it would've been so much better paced if Repentance wasn't so drawn out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2019, 07:41:59 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on March 28, 2019, 01:35:21 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
The first half of Repentance is quite good, up until the lame apology section and the annoyingly vocalized Promises.

:iagree:

I love SC as it is, but it would've been so much better paced if Repentance wasn't so drawn out.

It's a bit drawn out, but I wouldn't say it completely ruins the experience. It would've been nice to get something a little more streamlined with Repentance, but musically it's nice at least.

If we're comparing songs that were needlessly drawn out by long sample or spoken sections, I would take Repentance over Honor Thy Father or The Great Debate a hundred times over.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on March 28, 2019, 09:39:41 AM
Repentance is the best part of 12-Step Suite for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on March 28, 2019, 10:36:49 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
The first half of Repentance is boring as fuck, and then the lame apology section and the annoyingly vocalized Promises make it virtually unlistenable.

ftfy

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2019, 11:22:24 AM
I like the idea of having the Promises in the song, I just don't like it with that modulated voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:13:11 PM
I always got the impression that by the time of Repentance, the 12-step suite had become an albatross around DT's neck. TGP covered 3 steps, but then they dropped it down to 2 steps per song, which meant the project was going to last for another 4 albums. Since they needed to give somewhat equal treatment to each step, they were now forced into dedicating 10 minutes of each album towards a single topic. I actually think they should have left maybe the last 3 steps or so "unsung", as a nod to the fact that AA recovery is never over really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2019, 02:18:04 PM
100% on that. Except for the last sentence. The 12th Step is something about continuing to work the program and helping others "I am responsible..."), so while it is indeed never really over, the final step addresses that.

There is also a "13th Step." Too bad they didn't address that in song. Would have been a great opportunity from a lyrical standpoint :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:24:53 PM
Speaking of "I am responsible", that section is so awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 28, 2019, 02:28:36 PM
If they really wanted to stay true to the principle of it not being a "12-steps-check-the-boxes-and-you're-done" and instead a lifelong process, then DT should have continued to dedicate a song to it on every album.  Granted, by now, it would be hard to still come up with titles that embody the struggle AND start with the letter "R."  I dunno.  "Redirected (to Red Bull & Root Beer)" for this last album?  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 28, 2019, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 28, 2019, 02:18:04 PM
There is also a "13th Step." Too bad they didn't address that in song. Would have been a great opportunity from a lyrical standpoint :)

Maybe MP was saving that for another song in the future

Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:24:53 PM
Speaking of "I am responsible", that section is so awesome.

Indeed, a big reason why I like TSF so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on March 28, 2019, 04:09:03 PM
I remember being kinda surprised when This Dying Soul came about. For sure I knew The Glass Prison's theme but maybe from interviews it wasn't abundantly clear that it was the beginning of a saga, or maybe it was clear and I missed it. After all The Glass Prison seemed conclusive in itself - beginning with all the struggles, middle part with a different approach, long solo, final conclusive part, "the door was wide open", glass shattered. The end. Turns out it definitively wasn't  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Shredzorz on March 28, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Lines in the Sand would be a contender for their best song if the chorus weren't so awful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on March 28, 2019, 05:23:52 PM
Quote from: Shredzorz on March 28, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Lines in the Sand would be a contender for their best song if the chorus weren't so awful.

I love the whole song and it has my favourite JP guitar solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 28, 2019, 07:56:02 PM
Quote from: Shredzorz on March 28, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Lines in the Sand would be a contender for their best song if the chorus weren't so awful.

Seconded. Plus the intro goes on too damn long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 28, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:24:53 PM
Speaking of "I am responsible", that section is so awesome.

It's the only decent part of TSF. But yes, it is awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 28, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
Quote from: PetFish on March 27, 2019, 06:57:00 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 27, 2019, 06:27:50 AM
I don't think Live Scenes is that bad as a live album. As a DVD it's terrible, who they hell thought those effects were good? I think for '99 those were terrible.

It's all Portnoy's doing.  It's in the commentary.  I think it all has to do with MP being overly-excited about this amazing show that he got lost in the possibilities of what can be done with editing and wanting the final product to be especially special.

I'd be surprised if he looks at it now and thinks "wtf was I doing here", I definitely look back at my early websites, graphics, and photography and think "wtf was I doing here".

Looking at his website design I wonder if he does think that :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on March 28, 2019, 09:09:47 PM
Besides the intro, the keyboard solo section is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on March 28, 2019, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: Zook on March 28, 2019, 09:09:47 PM
Besides the intro, the keyboard solo section is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.

I'd be surprised if that was an unpopular opinion! The intro and keyboard solo section are incredible, especially the Breaking the Fourth Wall version where the difference between the Korg and Continuum is clearer
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on March 29, 2019, 04:55:54 AM
The Shattered Fortress is my favourite of the 12-Step songs. I know a lot of people don't like the reprises, but I think it's a great song to tie everything together, & the Repentance reprises are much better than their originals imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

*cues up "I am responsible" section from The Shattered Fortress*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 29, 2019, 07:22:34 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

*cues up "I am responsible" section from The Shattered Fortress*
:rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on March 29, 2019, 07:27:10 AM
Quote from: Ninjabait on March 28, 2019, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: Zook on March 28, 2019, 09:09:47 PM
Besides the intro, the keyboard solo section is the best part of The Shattered Fortress.

I'd be surprised if that was an unpopular opinion! The intro and keyboard solo section are incredible, especially the Breaking the Fourth Wall version where the difference between the Korg and Continuum is clearer

The keyboard solo in TSF is very cool, but it doesn't top JP's solo.
BC&SL is one of my least favorite DT albums, but the guitar work, specially the solos, is just incredible :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on March 29, 2019, 08:06:48 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

*cues up "I am responsible" section from The Shattered Fortress*

 :lol

Quote from: TAC on March 28, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:24:53 PM
Speaking of "I am responsible", that section is so awesome.

It's the only decent part of TSF. But yes, it is awesome.

It's decent and awesome?!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 29, 2019, 08:35:31 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

Uh, then he wasn't the director. At best he was the Producer, but more likely the Executive Producer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 09:09:30 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 29, 2019, 08:35:31 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

Uh, then he wasn't the director. At best he was the Producer, but more likely the Executive Producer.
No, he was still the director on the project.  But the filming of those scenes would have been done by a second unit director, or assistant director.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 29, 2019, 10:04:30 AM
A second unit or assistant director implies the director was off directing other things and they split the directing duties. Can we settle on Creative Director?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 29, 2019, 11:00:37 AM
This may not be controversial, but despite all the accolades Rudess and Mangini get for their advanced prowess, John Petrucci is the most talented member of the band and it’s not close.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on March 29, 2019, 11:05:37 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on March 29, 2019, 11:00:37 AM
This may not be controversial, but despite all the accolades Rudess and Mangini get for their advanced prowess, John Petrucci is the most talented member of the band and it’s not close.
I am not sure that this is such a controversial opinion, yeah. Pretty sure everyone agrees that JP is one of the greatest guitar players of all time, and when you consider his writing credits on Images alone (which is one of the best metal albums of all time), you naturally come to this conclusion. Amazing composer, player and not a half bad lyricist as well. He just makes it look so easy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 29, 2019, 11:12:31 AM
Yeah I was just watching some guitar cover vids of his songs, and man they are so incredibly intricate and SO MANY parts and different fingerings and techniques and gggzrraargggh  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 29, 2019, 11:34:19 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on March 29, 2019, 11:00:37 AM
This may not be controversial, but despite all the accolades Rudess and Mangini get for their advanced prowess, John Petrucci is the most talented member of the band and it’s not close.

Yeah, as a guitarist I may be biased but JP really is some kind of inhuman level savant.

I consider myself a competent player but it could still take me months to learn a DT album and I’d still need to work at it to get it completely right. Compare this to JP who will write and record all of these songs in a matter of weeks. That’s just a skill level 99.999% of guitarists will never achieve.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bill1971 on March 29, 2019, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on March 29, 2019, 08:06:48 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on March 29, 2019, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 27, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
The animations never bothered me but some of that movie footage was... egad, not great. I don't think it was "MP's movie though" didn't a third party do all the work on that?
If memory serves, MP was listed as the director of the project.  So even if he didn't physically shoot it himself, he was responsible for it.

*cues up "I am responsible" section from The Shattered Fortress*

 :lol

Quote from: TAC on March 28, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2019, 02:24:53 PM
Speaking of "I am responsible", that section is so awesome.

It's the only decent part of TSF. But yes, it is awesome.

It's decent and awesome?!  :metal

That and the amazing one armed drum fill Mangini does on the live DVD
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 29, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
The BTFW version of The Shattered Fortress, is better than the studio one. By a lot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 29, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
The BTFW version of The Shattered Fortress, is better than the studio one. By a lot.
Of course. Everything played by MM is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 29, 2019, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
Of course. Everything played by MM is.

https://youtu.be/_uHBFiAnpZs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 02:40:30 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 29, 2019, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
Of course. Everything played by MM is.

https://youtu.be/_uHBFiAnpZs
Was that Jerry Seinfeld btw? Funny suit he wears. Oh and another two for you: 1. I actually like James' versions of WDADU pieces on Reunite. 2) This also goes for any funny bits by Jordan (during ACOS, Sacrifice and The Dance Of Eternity and anything I forgot to mention now)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on March 29, 2019, 11:13:03 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 02:40:30 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 29, 2019, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
Of course. Everything played by MM is.

https://youtu.be/_uHBFiAnpZs
Was that Jerry Seinfeld btw? Funny suit he wears. Oh and another two for you: 1. I actually like James' versions of WDADU pieces on Reunite. 2) This also goes for any funny bits by Jordan (during ACOS, Sacrifice and The Dance Of Eternity and anything I forgot to mention now)

Agreed about Ruddess' silly parts when playing A Change of Seasons. BlASSphemy! Have they ever played it live without Ruddess playing those parts?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bill1971 on March 29, 2019, 11:41:59 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on March 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 29, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
The BTFW version of The Shattered Fortress, is better than the studio one. By a lot.
Of course. Everything played by MM is.

I agree. He's such a monster drummer. Portnoy is phenomenal but Mangini is just at another level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 06:39:50 AM
Haha the last thing I want to do is start another Portnoy vs Mangini debate, but I feel like ever since the new record, everyone on this forum has switched to team-Mangini and it’s starting to get a bit lonely here on team-Portnoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 30, 2019, 06:42:40 AM
Don't really know why it matters, Portnoy is gone, Mangini is here. You can like the current line-up or not. The whole portnoy vs. mangini thing is super old now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 06:39:50 AM
Haha the last thing I want to do is start another Portnoy vs Mangini debate, but I feel like ever since the new record, everyone on this forum has switched to team-Mangini and it’s starting to get a bit lonely here on team-Portnoy.

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 30, 2019, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 29, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
The BTFW version of The Shattered Fortress, is better than the studio one. By a lot.

Oh man Mangini CRUUUSHED that song. I mean he destroyed it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on March 30, 2019, 07:47:29 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 06:39:50 AM
Haha the last thing I want to do is start another Portnoy vs Mangini debate, but I feel like ever since the new record, everyone on this forum has switched to team-Mangini and it’s starting to get a bit lonely here on team-Portnoy.

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

I second this. I'm pretty sure everyone who has embraced Mangini hasn't forgotten how much Portnoy did for the band during his tenure, and all the amazing music he helped create. Of course, there are those sad little human beings who somehow spun an idea in their heads that Portnoy was this tyrant who held the whole band under his thumb and was solely responsible for every single complaint that they have about the band. But I think most of us, who live in the real world, have simply accepted and embraced the reality of the situation, and if it seems like "team Mangini" then it's probably simply because we really like the music that the band has made recently and we're happy with the present.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

That’s nice. But you DO understand that people clearly have strong opinions and preferences though, right? And that it’s possible to embrace DT in its entirety but still have preferences. I was simply making an observation that I’ve seen many more comments like “Portnoy was good, but Mangini is GREAT” or literally “everything that DT has ever played MM plays better” or even “I never liked that Portnoy-guy” comments since the new album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on March 30, 2019, 10:42:12 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

That’s nice. But you DO understand that people clearly have strong opinions and preferences though, right? And that it’s possible to embrace DT in its entirety but still have preferences. I was simply making an observation that I’ve seen many more comments like “Portnoy was good, but Mangini is GREAT” or literally “everything that DT has ever played MM plays better” or even “I never liked that Portnoy-guy” comments since the new album.

I doubt the amount of Portnoy fans has decreased since Distance Over Time came out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 30, 2019, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

That’s nice. But you DO understand that people clearly have strong opinions and preferences though, right? And that it’s possible to embrace DT in its entirety but still have preferences. I was simply making an observation that I’ve seen many more comments like “Portnoy was good, but Mangini is GREAT” or literally “everything that DT has ever played MM plays better” or even “I never liked that Portnoy-guy” comments since the new album.

As that icy blond once said, LET IT GO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 03:43:51 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

That’s nice. But you DO understand that people clearly have strong opinions and preferences though, right? And that it’s possible to embrace DT in its entirety but still have preferences. I was simply making an observation that I’ve seen many more comments like “Portnoy was good, but Mangini is GREAT” or literally “everything that DT has ever played MM plays better” or even “I never liked that Portnoy-guy” comments since the new album.

BFD.  If that kind of stuff bothers you that much, maybe the internet is not for you :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 03:43:51 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 10:24:57 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on March 30, 2019, 07:03:00 AM

Eh, I think most of us are team-Dream Theater.   :tup :tup

That’s nice. But you DO understand that people clearly have strong opinions and preferences though, right? And that it’s possible to embrace DT in its entirety but still have preferences. I was simply making an observation that I’ve seen many more comments like “Portnoy was good, but Mangini is GREAT” or literally “everything that DT has ever played MM plays better” or even “I never liked that Portnoy-guy” comments since the new album.

BFD.  If that kind of stuff bothers you that much, maybe the internet is not for you :P

Says the guy who was bothered by the notion of a “team-Portnoy/team-Mangini”

Lol Clearly I’M the one who is sensitive about this issue.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on March 30, 2019, 06:42:40 AM
Don't really know why it matters, Portnoy is gone, Mangini is here. You can like the current line-up or not. The whole portnoy vs. mangini thing is super old now.

Which is exactly why I said in my post I didn’t want to start a Mangini vs Portnoy “thing”...

I love the current lineup as well. It was simply a general comment towards the above posts that were ALREADY comparing Mangini to Portnoy. To be fair,  I should have just said “I strongly disagree with the notion that MM plays all DT songs better than MP because of XYZ” but I didn’t really want to go there because as you said, it is old news. Instead I was just making an observation that my preference towards Portnoy’s playing on live DT recordings is becoming more and more of a minority opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on March 31, 2019, 07:08:45 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on March 30, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
Clearly I’M the one who is sensitive about this issue.

It is clear that you are.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: abydos on April 01, 2019, 05:05:00 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on March 30, 2019, 07:14:42 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on March 29, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
The BTFW version of The Shattered Fortress, is better than the studio one. By a lot.

Oh man Mangini CRUUUSHED that song. I mean he destroyed it.
Just curious, what does Mangini do while playing this song that it makes it better than what Portnoy does in your opinion?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on April 01, 2019, 06:13:57 AM
Well, because of the metal nature of that song, to my ears Mangini’s super tight and accurate playing elevates it. Visually great too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 01, 2019, 04:13:39 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on April 01, 2019, 06:13:57 AM
Well, because of the metal nature of that song, to my ears Mangini’s super tight and accurate playing elevates it. Visually great too.

I will say I distinctly remember that song, specifically, getting a huge crowd pop at the end at the show I was attended on that tour. People were definitely in awe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 05, 2019, 01:50:31 AM
Despite DT having a lot of bloated songs in the past, I honestly kind of miss the longer song structures. Logically I know why they don't write like that anymore, but I can't deny it was always something that made the band feel more special to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PreHilbert on April 05, 2019, 03:49:13 AM
Barstool Warrior has the best Petrucci solo work since Scenes from a Memory (Fatal Tragedy, Spirit, BTL).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 05, 2019, 05:34:21 AM
Quote from: PreHilbert on April 05, 2019, 03:49:13 AM
Barstool Warrior has the best Petrucci solo work since Scenes from a Memory (Fatal Tragedy, Spirit, BTL).
Not IMHO. The first 3 MM-era albums do.  (and I don't consider Scenes to ever featuring good JP solos, just his usual fare, nothing more, if anything)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 05, 2019, 09:15:43 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 05, 2019, 05:34:21 AM
Quote from: PreHilbert on April 05, 2019, 03:49:13 AM
Barstool Warrior has the best Petrucci solo work since Scenes from a Memory (Fatal Tragedy, Spirit, BTL).
Not IMHO. The first 3 MM-era albums do.  (and I don't consider Scenes to ever featuring good JP solos, just his usual fare, nothing more, if anything)

 :lol  JP's usual fare (as you put it) is usually good, at least.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on April 05, 2019, 12:02:02 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 05, 2019, 09:15:43 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 05, 2019, 05:34:21 AM
Quote from: PreHilbert on April 05, 2019, 03:49:13 AM
Barstool Warrior has the best Petrucci solo work since Scenes from a Memory (Fatal Tragedy, Spirit, BTL).
Not IMHO. The first 3 MM-era albums do.  (and I don't consider Scenes to ever featuring good JP solos, just his usual fare, nothing more, if anything)
:lol  JP's usual fare (as you put it) is usually good, at least.
I know, right? It's amazing that Max somehow was a DT fan before MM even joined the band, with his hatred for MP and his downplaying of DT's older catalog.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on April 05, 2019, 02:07:13 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 05, 2019, 05:34:21 AM
Quote from: PreHilbert on April 05, 2019, 03:49:13 AM
Barstool Warrior has the best Petrucci solo work since Scenes from a Memory (Fatal Tragedy, Spirit, BTL).
Not IMHO. The first 3 MM-era albums do.  (and I don't consider Scenes to ever featuring good JP solos, just his usual fare, nothing more, if anything)
The Spirit Carries On would like a word...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 06, 2019, 05:44:45 AM
This is not a controversial opinion in and of itself, rather something I always asked myself anytime I listened to Awake: Why didn't they a) keep the producers for Awake for future albums like FII up until any point in their history and b) why didn't they go back to the same studio they recorded Awake in? (because I liked the room sound for Awake) Maybe Scotty knows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 06, 2019, 05:58:36 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 06, 2019, 05:44:45 AM
This is not a controversial opinion in and of itself, rather something I always asked myself anytime I listened to Awake: Why didn't they a) keep the producers for Awake for future albums like FII up until any point in their history and b) why didn't they go back to the same studio they recorded Awake in? (because I liked the room sound for Awake) Maybe Scotty knows.
All right, well, I may as well follow up with a controversial opinion then. I don't really like the production of Awake, and I'm glad that their other albums don't sound like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 06, 2019, 06:20:04 AM
To me it sounds crystal clear and powerful. Check the intro for The Mirror, that's pure and sheer badassery  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 06, 2019, 10:31:32 AM
Awake is probably, sonically, their best sounding record, IMO.

A bit dated, but less so than I&W, and in the context of 1994, I can’t find much at fault in it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on April 06, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
I was just listening to TOT last night, and I haven't listened to it in years. I really like the sound, it seems very dry as compared to d/t.  That's not a bad thing, I like the dry organic approach which makes it sound heavier.  I also like the nice rich sound of d/t with the top notch production.  Not really trying to compare the two albums, they are just two different beasts soundwise..  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 08, 2019, 10:19:31 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 06, 2019, 05:44:45 AM
This is not a controversial opinion in and of itself, rather something I always asked myself anytime I listened to Awake: Why didn't they a) keep the producers for Awake for future albums like FII up until any point in their history and b) why didn't they go back to the same studio they recorded Awake in? (because I liked the room sound for Awake) Maybe Scotty knows.

This begs a question:  who are "they"?  I wouldn't think the band members had a ton of say in the matter for FII, and I think everyone's pretty clear on what precipitated the initial decision to self-produce.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 08, 2019, 11:20:18 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 08, 2019, 10:19:31 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 06, 2019, 05:44:45 AM
This is not a controversial opinion in and of itself, rather something I always asked myself anytime I listened to Awake: Why didn't they a) keep the producers for Awake for future albums like FII up until any point in their history and b) why didn't they go back to the same studio they recorded Awake in? (because I liked the room sound for Awake) Maybe Scotty knows.

This begs a question:  who are "they"?  I wouldn't think the band members had a ton of say in the matter for FII, and I think everyone's pretty clear on what precipitated the initial decision to self-produce.
Sure. "They" are DT. And I'm aware of their history. I just imagined that, had the events leading to FII not happened, then they might have kept the producers and all that (which I would have liked because I like the general production on Awake). I know it didn't happen the way I was always imagining it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 08, 2019, 11:25:09 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 08, 2019, 11:20:18 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 08, 2019, 10:19:31 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 06, 2019, 05:44:45 AM
This is not a controversial opinion in and of itself, rather something I always asked myself anytime I listened to Awake: Why didn't they a) keep the producers for Awake for future albums like FII up until any point in their history and b) why didn't they go back to the same studio they recorded Awake in? (because I liked the room sound for Awake) Maybe Scotty knows.

This begs a question:  who are "they"?  I wouldn't think the band members had a ton of say in the matter for FII, and I think everyone's pretty clear on what precipitated the initial decision to self-produce.
Sure. "They" are DT. And I'm aware of their history. I just imagined that, had the events leading to FII not happened, then they might have kept the producers and all that (which I would have liked because I like the general production on Awake). I know it didn't happen the way I was always imagining it.

I think the production on FII is fine; it's the songs that drag it down.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
To date, FII is the gold standard in production for all DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 08, 2019, 11:28:21 AM
This is controversial to me. (no, really.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 08, 2019, 11:54:46 AM
I think the "production scare" for DT should have worn off after just a few years.

Ok, I get it - the record label comes and derails Falling Into Infinity (and eventually we found out that not even all the band members thought of it as a derailment). They want to do things their own way and they make one of the best album ever as a result, awesome! So they self produce... and grow bigger... and bigger... until they are well estabilished, respected and continously sell out big venues, or at the very least, fill them.

I wouldn't know how to pinpoint the exact point in time where a producer would be "safe", but I daresay that after DT estabilished themselves as a leading act, no way the FII nightmare would happen again. No way a producer would come in and go "Lol let's hire someone to write a catchy chorus and please make shorter songs". A producer that gets, understands and respects DT would have done wonders with them.

This is not a knock on Petrucci coproducing the albums, not at all. But I just think that if their rationale for skipping a producer like the plague was "Record label screws it up", they've long been in a position to say to the label "Look, just let us do what we want to do", and a producer would help them, not hinder them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 08, 2019, 11:56:45 AM
I don't think that has been the rationale for a long time now.  I think the rationale is more along the lines of, "We do just fine self-producing, so there's no need to change that."  Whether or not you or I might agree with that, I think that is their thinking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 08, 2019, 12:09:54 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 08, 2019, 11:56:45 AM
I don't think that has been the rationale for a long time now.  I think the rationale is more along the lines of, "We do just fine self-producing, so there's no need to change that."  Whether or not you or I might agree with that, I think that is their thinking.
I would agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 08, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Ah well. That could be a better explanation. Probably since MP was the most vocal about the issues with a producer I had in the back of my mind the lasting impression that the FII "debacle" was a factor, but most likely by now they're in the "Don't fix something that ain't broken" mindset.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 08, 2019, 12:24:16 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 08, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
Ah well. That could be a better explanation. Probably since MP was the most vocal about the issues with a producer I had in the back of my mind the lasting impression that the FII "debacle" was a factor, but most likely by now they're in the "Don't fix something that ain't broken" mindset.
which is completely fine by me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 08, 2019, 02:06:44 PM
I think bringing an external producer, that loves and understands DT, could work really well for them, because it would make them use a different approach, and that could be a really good thing. However, do they need an external producer? Definitely not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 08, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MlBCb9-m8

A saviour in the square
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 08, 2019, 03:02:41 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 08, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MlBCb9-m8

A saviour in the square
???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 08, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
To date, FII is the gold standard in production for all DT albums.
This is not a controversial opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 08, 2019, 06:13:27 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 08, 2019, 11:54:46 AM
This is not a knock on Petrucci coproducing the albums, not at all. But I just think that if their rationale for skipping a producer like the plague was "Record label screws it up", they've long been in a position to say to the label "Look, just let us do what we want to do", and a producer would help them, not hinder them.
Yeah, definitely. The reason why I would want them to hire an external producer is so that they could shake things up. They shook things up with recording in this new studio, and the result is an extremely well received album. If hiring a producer would produce (he he) another different album, I'm cool with it. If it sounds better than what JP can produce, all the better!

I know they had disagreements with all their producers, even Kevin Shirley. But the fans think those albums sound amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 06:20:50 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 08, 2019, 03:19:41 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
To date, FII is the gold standard in production for all DT albums.
This is not a controversial opinion.

Ah yes. I.am.not posting a controwversial opinion. I was responding to a previous.post glorifying Awake. Hehehd
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on April 08, 2019, 08:47:01 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 08, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MlBCb9-m8

A saviour in the square

It sounds sort of similar at parts. I wouldn't call it a rip off at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 08, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MlBCb9-m8

A saviour in the square

It doesn't sound like Our New World, and ASITS is just a variation of the ONW theme.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 09, 2019, 07:20:27 AM
Quote from: Evai on April 08, 2019, 02:57:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MlBCb9-m8

A saviour in the square

Not even close

This one on the other hand,
https://youtu.be/5Py-W946JLo

Paralyzed
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 09, 2019, 07:40:24 AM
No, not really.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 09, 2019, 08:29:48 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 09, 2019, 07:40:24 AM
No, not really.

The verses are VERY similar (chorus is entirely different). Not saying anyone copied anyone, I actually think the songs were released within months of each other.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 09, 2019, 11:38:19 AM
Nah, that Frank Zappa style gives that section of the song character, and for songs of that length, individual sections need character to keep my interest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on April 09, 2019, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?

Definitely toward the top of my "least favorite sections in a good song" list for me. If that section gives that song character, it's the character of your old aunt Gertrude with her 8 cats who still pinches your cheeks when you're 15. I remember them calling that the "Zappa" section of the song in the Live Scenes DVD commentary, which pretty much turned me off to Zappa's music without ever hearing any of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 09, 2019, 12:06:45 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on April 09, 2019, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?

Definitely toward the top of my "least favorite sections in a good song" list for me. If that section gives that song character, it's the character of your old aunt Gertrude with her 8 cats who still pinches your cheeks when you're 15. I remember them calling that the "Zappa" section of the song in the Live Scenes DVD commentary, which pretty much turned me off to Zappa's music without ever hearing any of it.
This section actually triggered the opposite in my case: the interest in Frank's works (I'm a Frankie fan for almost as long as I am a DT fan actually, love him to this day too and that section is one I like a lot, they could have made it even weirder for my personal taste actually)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on April 09, 2019, 12:52:49 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on April 08, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
To date, FII is the gold standard in production for all DT albums.

Not for me, JP's rhythm guitar isn't nearly loud enough and the tone is weak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 01:32:36 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?

I assume you're talking about the section starting at 8:16 in 17/8 time (and changing to 4/4 around 9:07).  I don't know if your opinion is controversial, but I absolutely LOVE that section.  At one point, BTL was one of my least favorite parts of SFAM, but I always loved the instrumental section and that section in particular.  It is definitely odd, but it totally works for me.  Not sure what your "overdubbed" comment is about since pretty much every keyboard and guitar solo is overdubbed.  If there are Zappa songs that sound like that, I'd like to know what they are (I keep saying I want to get into Zappa, but I never have and am not sure where to start).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 01:32:36 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?

I assume you're talking about the section starting at 8:16 in 17/8 time (and changing to 4/4 around 9:07).  I don't know if your opinion is controversial, but I absolutely LOVE that section.  At one point, BTL was one of my least favorite parts of SFAM, but I always loved the instrumental section and that section in particular.  It is definitely odd, but it totally works for me.  Not sure what your "overdubbed" comment is about since pretty much every keyboard and guitar solo is overdubbed.  If there are Zappa songs that sound like that, I'd like to know what they are (I keep saying I want to get into Zappa, but I never have and am not sure where to start).

Overdubbed as in.. a random guy on the internet found the backing track and put something silly over it! In all seriousness I’m glad it’s resonated with some people. I guess something like that can go either way. Saying that;, I enjoy the unison just after it. You were correct with the time stamps! I had it on today whilst I was driving so I memorised a vague timescale of it. It’s one of the only DT songs I’ve heard a handful of times due to that section, time will tell if my opinion will change as it has done in the past
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on April 09, 2019, 04:20:55 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 01:32:36 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?
I assume you're talking about the section starting at 8:16 in 17/8 time (and changing to 4/4 around 9:07).  I don't know if your opinion is controversial, but I absolutely LOVE that section.  At one point, BTL was one of my least favorite parts of SFAM, but I always loved the instrumental section and that section in particular.  It is definitely odd, but it totally works for me.  Not sure what your "overdubbed" comment is about since pretty much every keyboard and guitar solo is overdubbed.  If there are Zappa songs that sound like that, I'd like to know what they are (I keep saying I want to get into Zappa, but I never have and am not sure where to start).
Overdubbed as in.. a random guy on the internet found the backing track and put something silly over it! In all seriousness I’m glad it’s resonated with some people. I guess something like that can go either way. Saying that;, I enjoy the unison just after it. You were correct with the time stamps! I had it on today whilst I was driving so I memorised a vague timescale of it. It’s one of the only DT songs I’ve heard a handful of times due to that section, time will tell if my opinion will change as it has done in the past
Add me to the list of those who never really liked that part of an otherwise stellar song. I remember hearing it for the first time and was like WHAT THE....???!?!?!?!? Since it's been almost 20 years, obviously I've gotten use to that section of the song, but I'd still have preferred something else in it's place. I'm like Mr. Cool - after learning that it was the "Zappa" section, I realized this was a clear indication that I would never like Frank's music, even tho I know he was a musical genius.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 01:32:36 PM
Quote from: AboutToCrash on April 09, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I don’t know if this is controversial or not on the forums but it might be as it’s from a highly regarded album. The section of beyond this life from around 8.30-9.30 is my least favourite moment of DT’s entire discography by far. The song itself is amazing but this moment is almost unbearable to my ears. Rudess applies one of the worst keyboard sounds I’ve ever heard and on top of that plays a strange selection of notes that makes that section sound like a jumbled mess. It almost sounds like a joke, as if someone’s overdubbed it. Anyone else agree?  or am I alone here?

I assume you're talking about the section starting at 8:16 in 17/8 time (and changing to 4/4 around 9:07).  I don't know if your opinion is controversial, but I absolutely LOVE that section.  At one point, BTL was one of my least favorite parts of SFAM, but I always loved the instrumental section and that section in particular.  It is definitely odd, but it totally works for me.  Not sure what your "overdubbed" comment is about since pretty much every keyboard and guitar solo is overdubbed.  If there are Zappa songs that sound like that, I'd like to know what they are (I keep saying I want to get into Zappa, but I never have and am not sure where to start).

Overdubbed as in.. a random guy on the internet found the backing track and put something silly over it! In all seriousness I’m glad it’s resonated with some people. I guess something like that can go either way. Saying that;, I enjoy the unison just after it. You were correct with the time stamps! I had it on today whilst I was driving so I memorised a vague timescale of it. It’s one of the only DT songs I’ve heard a handful of times due to that section, time will tell if my opinion will change as it has done in the past

I think when you play music that has "weird" sections -- as DT does -- you're going to run the risk that some folks won't like it and some will love it.  It's the nature of the beast.  I came around to liking all of BTL.  I also didn't initially care for any of disc 1 of SDOIT, but then the first three songs clicked for me at good 5+ years after the album was released.  If this particular section never clicks for you, then c'est la vie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on April 09, 2019, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 09, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
I think when you play music that has "weird" sections -- as DT does -- you're going to run the risk that some folks won't like it and some will love it.  It's the nature of the beast.
Oh I completely agree with that. I'd go so far as to say that's the case for any of their music, with or without weird sections. The problem I have (and I'd imagine others too) is that it sounds so disjointed and doesn't fit the song really at all. Had they tweaked the sounds so that it sounded like DT and not FZ, then maybe it wouldn't have been an issue. Take another song they did that had a "Zappa" section in it: CiaW. The section from 2:43 to 3:12 was the "Zappa" section in that song, yet the average fan would never realize that it was heavily influenced by FZ because the style of the keys and guitar are the same as the rest of the song, and it doesn't have those awful horns or other sounds that scream FZ. Had the section in BTL been the same way, I probably still wouldn't like it completely, but I'd probably like it a lot more than I do now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on April 10, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

Whether it fits with the song or not is an entirely different debate, but just looking at the section outside of the context of the song, it’s brilliant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 10, 2019, 05:38:07 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on April 10, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

Whether it fits with the song or not is an entirely different debate, but just looking at the section outside of the context of the song, it’s brilliant.

I agree! That section is my favorite part of the song (along with JP’s solo at the end). That unison at the end of the instrumental section is amazing :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on April 10, 2019, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 10, 2019, 05:38:07 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on April 10, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

Whether it fits with the song or not is an entirely different debate, but just looking at the section outside of the context of the song, it’s brilliant.

I agree! That section is my favorite part of the song (along with JP’s solo at the end). That unison at the end of the instrumental section is amazing :metal
Yes! Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lucidlydreaming on April 12, 2019, 11:04:53 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

It doesn't fit the song.  It's not brilliant if it doesn't work as a whole piece.  That section does not exist in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jakepriest on April 13, 2019, 05:34:23 AM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on April 12, 2019, 11:04:53 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

It doesn't fit the song.  It's not brilliant if it doesn't work as a whole piece.  That section does not exist in a vacuum.

Or you could say that the boring rest of the song doesn't fit the brilliant instrumental section :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on April 13, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on April 13, 2019, 05:34:23 AM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on April 12, 2019, 11:04:53 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

It doesn't fit the song.  It's not brilliant if it doesn't work as a whole piece.  That section does not exist in a vacuum.

Or you could say that the boring rest of the song doesn't fit the brilliant instrumental section :neverusethis:
:tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 13, 2019, 08:50:49 AM
TMoLS is fantastic, the mood shift for the solo section is genius to me, and they bring it back perfectly.

I'm not a fan of the sampled female vocals at the end of TSCO live performances. Hearing a singer who isn't actually there ending the song cheapens it a little for me.

CONTROVERSIAL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 13, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
Quote from: Evai on April 13, 2019, 08:50:49 AM
TMoLS is fantastic, the mood shift for the solo section is genius to me, and they bring it back perfectly.

Agreed. I love the song through and through. The lyrics aren't the best in the world, but they're not as terrible as some people say, and yeah, the ballad sections are some of the most beautiful melodies DT has ever written.

Quote from: Evai on April 13, 2019, 08:50:49 AM
I'm not a fan of the sampled female vocals at the end of TSCO live performances. Hearing a singer who isn't actually there ending the song cheapens it a little for me.

CONTROVERSIAL

I don't think they're absolutely necessary, but they don't really bother me. I'd sooner see them drop spoken word samples on songs like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest (not that I'd expect them to play Space-Dye Vest again).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on April 13, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 13, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
I'd sooner see them drop spoken word samples on songs like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest (not that I'd expect them to play Space-Dye Vest again).

As they are part of the songs as recorded, I would rather they leave them in when played live. But bah gawd those 6:00 samples are annoying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 13, 2019, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: Another_Won on April 13, 2019, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: jakepriest on April 13, 2019, 05:34:23 AM
Quote from: lucidlydreaming on April 12, 2019, 11:04:53 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 10, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
The instrumental section in TMoLS is still one of DT's best no matter how disjointed some people might think it is.  :hat

It doesn't fit the song.  It's not brilliant if it doesn't work as a whole piece.  That section does not exist in a vacuum.

Or you could say that the boring rest of the song doesn't fit the brilliant instrumental section :neverusethis:
:tup

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 13, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender link=topic=35056.msg2542008#msg2542008
I don't think they're absolutely necessary, but they don't really bother me. I'd sooner see them drop spoken word samples on songs like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest (not that I'd expect them to play Space-Dye Vest again).

You just made me imagine Take The Time but with with no 'hold it now, wait a minute, come on, whew'  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on April 13, 2019, 04:55:40 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 13, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender link=topic=35056.msg2542008#msg2542008
I don't think they're absolutely necessary, but they don't really bother me. I'd sooner see them drop spoken word samples on songs like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest (not that I'd expect them to play Space-Dye Vest again).

You just made me imagine Take The Time but with with no 'hold it now, wait a minute, come on, whew'  :omg:

That sounds glorious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 14, 2019, 04:36:33 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on April 13, 2019, 04:55:40 PM
Quote from: Evai on April 13, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender link=topic=35056.msg2542008#msg2542008
I don't think they're absolutely necessary, but they don't really bother me. I'd sooner see them drop spoken word samples on songs like 6:00 and Space-Dye Vest (not that I'd expect them to play Space-Dye Vest again).

You just made me imagine Take The Time but with with no 'hold it now, wait a minute, come on, whew'  :omg:

That sounds glorious.
Speaking of TTT, that piece would have fit much better on FII rather than I/W IMHO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 14, 2019, 10:10:17 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd like to see DT go through, at least, one more lineup change before they retire, just to shake things up a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 15, 2019, 01:14:03 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 14, 2019, 10:10:17 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd like to see DT go through, at least, one more lineup change before they retire, just to shake things up a bit.

Any preference on which band member?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on April 15, 2019, 01:31:51 AM
I don't think I can survive a lineup change involving JP, MM, or JM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one, not because there's anything wrong with him - but merely from a perspective point, the band existed 25 years without him, another drummer will just do.

Of course I don't want him to go and I'd be sad to see it happen, especially now that he's finally fully integrated in the songwriting process, I'm just speaking hypothetically here.

The other four would be a huge blow. With JP mostly but also JR, you lose the songwriting core of DT, and in Petrucci's case, essentially the heart of it all. Take Petrucci out of DT, and what remains of DT is just the name. Myung as another founding member would be a huge blow, maybe the songwriting could survive but Myung is essentially tied to DT.

And James... say what you will about his live performances, he's the defining and ultimate voice of DT. DT = James singing. It's not a matter of being able or not, probably there's out there someone who could sing all the tunes - but after all this time, no one else would feel right. It would not just sound like DT, because James' voice is forever tied to the sound. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel right singing DT, and certainly not any other singer of the scene or an unknown talent found in a cover band. "Nobody" accepted Ripper in Judas Priest after all those years, and the guy could scream like a muthafaker. But he was not Halford. No one else is Halford but Rob Halford. No one else is the voice of DT but James.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bertielee on April 15, 2019, 04:01:29 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one, not because there's anything wrong with him - but merely from a perspective point, the band existed 25 years without him, another drummer will just do.

Of course I don't want him to go and I'd be sad to see it happen, especially now that he's finally fully integrated in the songwriting process, I'm just speaking hypothetically here.

The other four would be a huge blow. With JP mostly but also JR, you lose the songwriting core of DT, and in Petrucci's case, essentially the heart of it all. Take Petrucci out of DT, and what remains of DT is just the name. Myung as another founding member would be a huge blow, maybe the songwriting could survive but Myung is essentially tied to DT.

And James... say what you will about his live performances, he's the defining and ultimate voice of DT. DT = James singing. It's not a matter of being able or not, probably there's out there someone who could sing all the tunes - but after all this time, no one else would feel right. It would not just sound like DT, because James' voice is forever tied to the sound. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel right singing DT, and certainly not any other singer of the scene or an unknown talent found in a cover band. "Nobody" accepted Ripper in Judas Priest after all those years, and the guy could scream like a muthafaker. But he was not Halford. No one else is Halford but Rob Halford. No one else is the voice of DT but James.

Agreed with everything you said.

B.Lee
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 09:39:11 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on April 15, 2019, 04:01:29 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one, not because there's anything wrong with him - but merely from a perspective point, the band existed 25 years without him, another drummer will just do.

Of course I don't want him to go and I'd be sad to see it happen, especially now that he's finally fully integrated in the songwriting process, I'm just speaking hypothetically here.

The other four would be a huge blow. With JP mostly but also JR, you lose the songwriting core of DT, and in Petrucci's case, essentially the heart of it all. Take Petrucci out of DT, and what remains of DT is just the name. Myung as another founding member would be a huge blow, maybe the songwriting could survive but Myung is essentially tied to DT.

And James... say what you will about his live performances, he's the defining and ultimate voice of DT. DT = James singing. It's not a matter of being able or not, probably there's out there someone who could sing all the tunes - but after all this time, no one else would feel right. It would not just sound like DT, because James' voice is forever tied to the sound. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel right singing DT, and certainly not any other singer of the scene or an unknown talent found in a cover band. "Nobody" accepted Ripper in Judas Priest after all those years, and the guy could scream like a muthafaker. But he was not Halford. No one else is Halford but Rob Halford. No one else is the voice of DT but James.

Agreed with everything you said.

B.Lee

I would throw JR and JM in there as well.

We know DT can survive multiple keyboard changes (and still be in the same DT ballpark) and JM on bass, even as a founding member is certainly no more  “essential” than Portnoy was.

To me, JP and JLB are the thread that bind the whole thing together. Lose that and you lose the DT sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 15, 2019, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one

I never realized that, but I guess since he is the smallest member, that makes sense that he would be.  Do you know how big he can get?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 15, 2019, 09:55:34 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2019, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one

I never realized that, but I guess since he is the smallest member, that makes sense that he would be.  Do you know how big he can get?

 :rollin :rollin :rollin

"Mike Mangini Expansion Pack® coming soon from Kenner!"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on April 15, 2019, 09:55:50 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2019, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one

I never realized that, but I guess since he is the smallest member, that makes sense that he would be.  Do you know how big he can get?

 :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 11:43:41 AM
Just remember y'all that I'm italian and that I'm supposed to suck at english.  :facepalm: :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 15, 2019, 11:58:25 AM
 :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 15, 2019, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 15, 2019, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one

I never realized that, but I guess since he is the smallest member, that makes sense that he would be.  Do you know how big he can get?
I love you so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 15, 2019, 01:02:27 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 11:43:41 AM
Just remember y'all that I'm italian and that I'm supposed to suck at english.  :facepalm: :lol

Remember, I speak English and I probably would have done that as well. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on April 15, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
I'm the best Engrish user here. Sorry, MirrorMask!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 15, 2019, 02:27:37 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 09:39:11 AM
Quote from: Bertielee on April 15, 2019, 04:01:29 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on April 15, 2019, 01:52:59 AM
To be brutally honest, Mike Mangini is the only "expandable" one, not because there's anything wrong with him - but merely from a perspective point, the band existed 25 years without him, another drummer will just do.

Of course I don't want him to go and I'd be sad to see it happen, especially now that he's finally fully integrated in the songwriting process, I'm just speaking hypothetically here.

The other four would be a huge blow. With JP mostly but also JR, you lose the songwriting core of DT, and in Petrucci's case, essentially the heart of it all. Take Petrucci out of DT, and what remains of DT is just the name. Myung as another founding member would be a huge blow, maybe the songwriting could survive but Myung is essentially tied to DT.

And James... say what you will about his live performances, he's the defining and ultimate voice of DT. DT = James singing. It's not a matter of being able or not, probably there's out there someone who could sing all the tunes - but after all this time, no one else would feel right. It would not just sound like DT, because James' voice is forever tied to the sound. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel right singing DT, and certainly not any other singer of the scene or an unknown talent found in a cover band. "Nobody" accepted Ripper in Judas Priest after all those years, and the guy could scream like a muthafaker. But he was not Halford. No one else is Halford but Rob Halford. No one else is the voice of DT but James.

Agreed with everything you said.

B.Lee

I would throw JR and JM in there as well.

We know DT can survive multiple keyboard changes (and still be in the same DT ballpark) and JM on bass, even as a founding member is certainly no more  “essential” than Portnoy was.

To me, JP and JLB are the thread that bind the whole thing together. Lose that and you lose the DT sound.

I think DT could survive without any of the current members, except JP, there’s just no replacing him.

James is THE voice of DT and he’s been in the band for almost 30 years now, but I still think DT could work well with a new vocalist if he decided to retire or something. A band like Threshold, for example, has had 3 major singers through their career and the fans love each of them for many reasons, same case with Angra and Spock’s Beard. It doesn’t have to sound the same, in fact it shouldn’t, and that was the point of my post, another lineup change could be good to shake things up. Not that I’m expecting it to happen anytime soon, btw.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on April 15, 2019, 02:39:29 PM
Threshold and Angra had singer changes very early in their careers. Threshold didn't have two albums with the same singer until albums 4 and 5. Angra was a little different, but in either case it wasn't this huge history. The most albums any Angra singer has been on is 4.  James has been on 13 albums and been with the band for over 25 years.  I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, but I certainly wouldn't even want to see them try.  (Of course I don't want to see any lineup changes at this point. I hope they keep this line up until they retire.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 15, 2019, 02:42:54 PM
People said there was no replacing MP, and yet... Hell, Eric Gillette is basically Young JP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on April 15, 2019, 02:52:33 PM
Yeah.... And he'd do a great job in a DT tribute band.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 15, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: Lethean on April 15, 2019, 02:52:33 PM
Yeah.... And he'd do a great job in a DT tribute band.  :)

You mean Mike Portnoy's Shattered Fortress? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 15, 2019, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 15, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: Lethean on April 15, 2019, 02:52:33 PM
Yeah.... And he'd do a great job in a DT tribute band.  :)

You mean Mike Portnoy's Shattered Fortress? :lol
Yeah.  He already has!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 15, 2019, 03:40:00 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 14, 2019, 10:10:17 PM
Controversial opinion: I'd like to see DT go through, at least, one more lineup change before they retire, just to shake things up a bit.

I think it's one thing to talk about how Member X leaving would affect the band, but to say that one would "like to see DT go through[] at least[] one more lineup change . . . just to shake things up a bit" is truly odd IMO.


Quote from: gzarruk on April 15, 2019, 02:27:37 PM
I think DT could survive without any of the current members, except JP, there’s just no replacing him.

James is THE voice of DT and he’s been in the band for almost 30 years now, but I still think DT could work well with a new vocalist if he decided to retire or something. A band like Threshold, for example, has had 3 major singers through their career and the fans love each of them for many reasons, same case with Angra and Spock’s Beard. It doesn’t have to sound the same, in fact it shouldn’t, and that was the point of my post, another lineup change could be good to shake things up. Not that I’m expecting it to happen anytime soon, btw.

I have virtually no idea who any of those other bands are, but I think the member whose loss would affect the band the most would be JLB.  He is the voice of Dream Theater, and I think lots of fans -- myself included -- would be very skeptical of a Dream Theater without JLB, and the only circumstance where I'd be receptive to a change of singers would be if JLB decided he physically couldn't do the job anymore and willingly stepped aside for someone else.


Quote from: Kattelox on April 15, 2019, 02:42:54 PM
People said there was no replacing MP

If you'd asked me nine years ago who the most replaceable member of DT was, I'd have said MP 10 out of 10 times.  While I probably have a slight preference for MP's drumming over that of MM, MP brought little of value to me beyond his drumming.

At the current time, I'd say JM and MM are equally replaceable.  JP and, to a slightly lesser extent, JR are, as far as I know, responsible for 90% or so of songwriting.  Obviously, that number is just a guess, but I'd be surprised if it's far off.  But I don't want to see any lineup changes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on April 15, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
If a band needs to change a member(s) to "shake things up" that band needs to call it quits.
Quote from: pg1067 on April 15, 2019, 03:40:00 PM
If you'd asked me nine years ago who the most replaceable member of DT was, I'd have said MP 10 out of 10 times.  While I probably have a slight preference for MP's drumming over that of MM, MP brought little of value to me beyond his drumming.

I thought the complete opposite, as he was spearheading the DVD commentaries, ytsejam releases, etc... His behavior was getting a little off-putting and the vocals he contributed needed to stop. But neither were derailing my love for the band.

I agree with your JLB assessment. But then I think of both times I've seen Nightwish with Floor and been blown away. But then I think of the two Maiden albums with Blaze that just sound... not much like Maiden. So maybe sometimes it can work, and others it doesn't.

As long as we are on this morbid topic... would many people feel much differently about DT with a different bass player? Other than the fact that he has been with the band from the beginning, he isn't a main songwriter or lyricist, bass isn't as integral to DT's sound these days, he doesn't do much press, and brings little personality to the group. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 15, 2019, 05:57:47 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
I thought the complete opposite, as he was spearheading the DVD commentaries, ytsejam releases, etc... His behavior was getting a little off-putting and the vocals he contributed needed to stop. But neither were derailing my love for the band.

MP did a ton of stuff that a lot of folks found valuable.  I just wasn't one of those folks.


Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
As long as we are on this morbid topic... would many people feel much differently about DT with a different bass player? Other than the fact that he has been with the band from the beginning, he isn't a main songwriter or lyricist, bass isn't as integral to DT's sound these days, he doesn't do much press, and brings little personality to the group.

I'd be bummed in principle, but I don't think it would noticeably change the band for the reasons you mentioned (hence my comment above that JM and MM are the most replaceable members of the band).


Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
If a band needs to change a member(s) to "shake things up" that band needs to call it quits.

Yup.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Very controversial opinion;

I’m kinda liking what I’m hearing on Jodan Rudess’ new solo album, so far, more than (most of) D/T.

It’s proggy, unpredictable, and weird. I dig it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 15, 2019, 06:31:13 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on April 15, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
As long as we are on this morbid topic... would many people feel much differently about DT with a different bass player? Other than the fact that he has been with the band from the beginning, he isn't a main songwriter or lyricist, bass isn't as integral to DT's sound these days, he doesn't do much press, and brings little personality to the group.

It would suck if Myung was no longer in the band but I'd still be a fan as long as they still write music I enjoy. Same thing if LaBrie left...as long as the singer sounds good with the band, I'd still listen to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: brents319 on April 15, 2019, 06:32:25 PM
Quote from: romdrums on March 07, 2019, 09:54:02 PM
Viper King is better than Octavarium.

Thanks for the laugh....and, I am not sure I disagree.  LOL.  I freakin love Viper King.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 15, 2019, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Very controversial opinion;

I’m kinda liking what I’m hearing on Jodan Rudess’ new solo album, so far, more than (most of) D/T.

It’s proggy, unpredictable, and weird. I dig it.

I could never get into JR's solo stuff. The bit I checked out was beautiful melody followed by an endless flurry of notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 15, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 15, 2019, 07:30:04 PM

I could never get into Dream Theater's stuff. The bit I checked out was beautiful melody followed by an endless flurry of notes.



 ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 15, 2019, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Very controversial opinion;

I’m kinda liking what I’m hearing on Jodan Rudess’ new solo album, so far, more than (most of) D/T.

It’s proggy, unpredictable, and weird. I dig it.

I could never get into JR's solo stuff. The bit I checked out was beautiful melody followed by an endless flurry of notes.

Up until this new album I would have agreed with you. It’s definitely still over the top but relatively restrained. More composition, arrangement...less noodling.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
I don't want to start a whole thread about this, and it will be controversial, so here it is........

I am a huge Mangini fan - seriously. All the nonsense of having to pick Team Mike or Team Mike, it's not the real world. It is ok to love all the history of DT with Portnoy's massive influence, and to love the current era too. Even the Portnoy family was present and recognized from the stage by the band in NYC - I refuse the binary choice. I even told MM once, and I meant it, I've been on board since I&W, so I think I count as old school, but truthfully a lot of my favorite material has been since he joined the band.

OK - so with that preamble, I still find something a little odd. At the merch table on this tour, you can get signed copies of the new album, the signed drum head thing that comes in the VIP swag bag, and the vinyl re-release of Scenes, signed by the band.

You see where I am going here?

We brought a copy of Scenes vinyl for my daughter to get signed at the M&G. She loves that album beyond all others. But we didn't pass it to MM for a signature. He isn't on that recording. Just doesn't feel right. I doubt he noticed, there were a million things going by so fast on the table. I am going to take it to the next MP project I attend and hope to get it signed and complete the collection for her.

I realize it would be weird to have a partial band autograph collection on an item for sale, especially when other items are signed by everyone. But it's also weird to have MM sign the album MP recorded. I realize my reservation is mitigated by the fact that he's playing it every night on stage, as well as plenty of other material that MP wrote and recorded - that's the nature of a band line up change, sure.

Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 16, 2019, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
Up until this new album I would have agreed with you. It’s definitely still over the top but relatively restrained. More composition, arrangement...less noodling.

I was only joking because we've all probably read/heard similar comments about Dream Theater's music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
I don't want to start a whole thread about this, and it will be controversial, so here it is........

I am a huge Mangini fan - seriously. All the nonsense of having to pick Team Mike or Team Mike, it's not the real world. It is ok to love all the history of DT with Portnoy's massive influence, and to love the current era too. Even the Portnoy family was present and recognized from the stage by the band in NYC - I refuse the binary choice. I even told MM once, and I meant it, I've been on board since I&W, so I think I count as old school, but truthfully a lot of my favorite material has been since he joined the band.

OK - so with that preamble, I still find something a little odd. At the merch table on this tour, you can get signed copies of the new album, the signed drum head thing that comes in the VIP swag bag, and the vinyl re-release of Scenes, signed by the band.

You see where I am going here?

We brought a copy of Scenes vinyl for my daughter to get signed at the M&G. She loves that album beyond all others. But we didn't pass it to MM for a signature. He isn't on that recording. Just doesn't feel right. I doubt he noticed, there were a million things going by so fast on the table. I am going to take it to the next MP project I attend and hope to get it signed and complete the collection for her.

I realize it would be weird to have a partial band autograph collection on an item for sale, especially when other items are signed by everyone. But it's also weird to have MM sign the album MP recorded. I realize my reservation is mitigated by the fact that he's playing it every night on stage, as well as plenty of other material that MP wrote and recorded - that's the nature of a band line up change, sure.

Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.

???   I'm not seeing the "controversy" here.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 16, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
Quote from: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
I don't want to start a whole thread about this, and it will be controversial, so here it is........

I am a huge Mangini fan - seriously. All the nonsense of having to pick Team Mike or Team Mike, it's not the real world. It is ok to love all the history of DT with Portnoy's massive influence, and to love the current era too. Even the Portnoy family was present and recognized from the stage by the band in NYC - I refuse the binary choice. I even told MM once, and I meant it, I've been on board since I&W, so I think I count as old school, but truthfully a lot of my favorite material has been since he joined the band.

OK - so with that preamble, I still find something a little odd. At the merch table on this tour, you can get signed copies of the new album, the signed drum head thing that comes in the VIP swag bag, and the vinyl re-release of Scenes, signed by the band.

You see where I am going here?

We brought a copy of Scenes vinyl for my daughter to get signed at the M&G. She loves that album beyond all others. But we didn't pass it to MM for a signature. He isn't on that recording. Just doesn't feel right. I doubt he noticed, there were a million things going by so fast on the table. I am going to take it to the next MP project I attend and hope to get it signed and complete the collection for her.

I realize it would be weird to have a partial band autograph collection on an item for sale, especially when other items are signed by everyone. But it's also weird to have MM sign the album MP recorded. I realize my reservation is mitigated by the fact that he's playing it every night on stage, as well as plenty of other material that MP wrote and recorded - that's the nature of a band line up change, sure.

Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.

Actually, I saw a guy in front of me with a Scenes From A Memory vinyl. And when Mike Mangini received it, he actually asked, "You want my signature on this?"
The guy did. But yeah, the point is, MM is well aware that since he wasn't on the album, not everyone might want him to sign it. So I think that's normal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on April 16, 2019, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on April 15, 2019, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Very controversial opinion;

I’m kinda liking what I’m hearing on Jodan Rudess’ new solo album, so far, more than (most of) D/T.

It’s proggy, unpredictable, and weird. I dig it.

I could never get into JR's solo stuff. The bit I checked out was beautiful melody followed by an endless flurry of notes.

Up until this new album I would have agreed with you. It’s definitely still over the top but relatively restrained. More composition, arrangement...less noodling.

I’ll have to give it a listen. I was going to post earlier that JR loves challenging himself, I’d love to see try and do an ambient album.

Quote from: Herrick on April 16, 2019, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on April 15, 2019, 08:57:57 PM
Up until this new album I would have agreed with you. It’s definitely still over the top but relatively restrained. More composition, arrangement...less noodling.

I was only joking because we've all probably read/heard similar comments about Dream Theater's music.

Very true but JR albums seemed to have even less breathing room.

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 16, 2019, 07:59:29 AM
Quote from: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
I don't want to start a whole thread about this, and it will be controversial, so here it is........

I am a huge Mangini fan - seriously. All the nonsense of having to pick Team Mike or Team Mike, it's not the real world. It is ok to love all the history of DT with Portnoy's massive influence, and to love the current era too. Even the Portnoy family was present and recognized from the stage by the band in NYC - I refuse the binary choice. I even told MM once, and I meant it, I've been on board since I&W, so I think I count as old school, but truthfully a lot of my favorite material has been since he joined the band.

OK - so with that preamble, I still find something a little odd. At the merch table on this tour, you can get signed copies of the new album, the signed drum head thing that comes in the VIP swag bag, and the vinyl re-release of Scenes, signed by the band.

You see where I am going here?

We brought a copy of Scenes vinyl for my daughter to get signed at the M&G. She loves that album beyond all others. But we didn't pass it to MM for a signature. He isn't on that recording. Just doesn't feel right. I doubt he noticed, there were a million things going by so fast on the table. I am going to take it to the next MP project I attend and hope to get it signed and complete the collection for her.

I realize it would be weird to have a partial band autograph collection on an item for sale, especially when other items are signed by everyone. But it's also weird to have MM sign the album MP recorded. I realize my reservation is mitigated by the fact that he's playing it every night on stage, as well as plenty of other material that MP wrote and recorded - that's the nature of a band line up change, sure.

Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.

Actually, I saw a guy in front of me with a Scenes From A Memory vinyl. And when Mike Mangini received it, he actually asked, "You want my signature on this?"
The guy did. But yeah, the point is, MM is well aware that since he wasn't on the album, not everyone might want him to sign it. So I think that's normal.


That’s actually very cool and self-aware of MM. I probably wouldn’t really care and have him sign anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on April 16, 2019, 08:46:51 AM
I remember seeing a M&G video where James refused to sign WDADU, saying "I didn't sing on that." Given that people usually don't want to sign albums they weren't on, it probably didn't bother MM if he noticed you hadn't asked for his signature.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 16, 2019, 09:43:51 AM
Quote from: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.

Not at all.  I wouldn't want MM to sign something related to one of the MP albums.

Back in 1988, a friend won passes to a M&G with Queensryche and Metallica (he also won the grand prize -- a guitar signed by Kirk Hammett).  I brought both my MOP album cover and my AJFA CD booklet to have signed.  Jason Newsted signed the AJFA booklet but, when I handed him the MOP cover, he said something like, "you know I didn't play on that; are you sure you want me to sign it?"  My response was, "oh, yeah, I guess you're right."  It hadn't occurred to me beforehand, but when he said something it seemed pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on April 16, 2019, 12:05:33 PM
Quote from: Air Weaver on April 15, 2019, 10:42:50 PM
I don't want to start a whole thread about this, and it will be controversial, so here it is........

I am a huge Mangini fan - seriously. All the nonsense of having to pick Team Mike or Team Mike, it's not the real world. It is ok to love all the history of DT with Portnoy's massive influence, and to love the current era too. Even the Portnoy family was present and recognized from the stage by the band in NYC - I refuse the binary choice. I even told MM once, and I meant it, I've been on board since I&W, so I think I count as old school, but truthfully a lot of my favorite material has been since he joined the band.

OK - so with that preamble, I still find something a little odd. At the merch table on this tour, you can get signed copies of the new album, the signed drum head thing that comes in the VIP swag bag, and the vinyl re-release of Scenes, signed by the band.

You see where I am going here?

We brought a copy of Scenes vinyl for my daughter to get signed at the M&G. She loves that album beyond all others. But we didn't pass it to MM for a signature. He isn't on that recording. Just doesn't feel right. I doubt he noticed, there were a million things going by so fast on the table. I am going to take it to the next MP project I attend and hope to get it signed and complete the collection for her.

I realize it would be weird to have a partial band autograph collection on an item for sale, especially when other items are signed by everyone. But it's also weird to have MM sign the album MP recorded. I realize my reservation is mitigated by the fact that he's playing it every night on stage, as well as plenty of other material that MP wrote and recorded - that's the nature of a band line up change, sure.

Just wondering if I'm alone in having thoughts about that.  I love signed art/books/music not just for the collecting of autographs, but because it is the artist signing their own work.
I hear what you're saying, and I'm the same way. It's why when I went to meet the band for the very first time in January 1993, I only brought IaW to get signed. I didn't bring my copy of WDaDU since Charlie wouldn't be there. Of course, I'm kicking myself now since that was the only chance I had to ever get Kevin Moore's autograph and I would get to know Charlie on a personal basis years later. There was one exception to that rule, and that was having Derek sign my copy of Awake after the show I saw in 1994. I think at the time he was just happy to sign anything, although I've heard later that he refused to sign it after DT CDs he was involved with were released. Considering that he was the touring keyboardist then, I had no problem with him signing it and I still don't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 16, 2019, 01:39:28 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on April 16, 2019, 12:05:33 PM
I hear what you're saying, and I'm the same way. It's why when I went to meet the band for the very first time in January 1993, I only brought IaW to get signed. I didn't bring my copy of WDaDU since Charlie wouldn't be there. Of course, I'm kicking myself now since that was the only chance I had to ever get Kevin Moore's autograph

When I saw DT in November 1992, we hung in the parking lot after the show and met the band, except for KM, who stayed on the bus.  I got them to sign my I&W CD booklet.  Fortunately, I got KM to sign after one of the two 1993 shows I went to.  Obviously, I didn't know KM wasn't long for the band, but in hindsight, I was very glad I ended up getting the signature.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
I suspect that banning Charlie from the forum might hurt my chances of getting his signature on WDADU were I to try.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 16, 2019, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
I suspect that banning Charlie from the forum might hurt my chances of getting his signature on WDADU were I to try.  :lol

Wait... what? Charlie's banned?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 16, 2019, 02:44:57 PM
Charlie who?  Oops!  Sorry Charlie.   :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on April 16, 2019, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on April 16, 2019, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
I suspect that banning Charlie from the forum might hurt my chances of getting his signature on WDADU were I to try.  :lol

Wait... what? Charlie's banned?  :lol

Maybe bosk1 should tell you the story. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 16, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on April 16, 2019, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on April 16, 2019, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
I suspect that banning Charlie from the forum might hurt my chances of getting his signature on WDADU were I to try.  :lol

Wait... what? Charlie's banned?  :lol

Maybe bosk1 should tell you the story. :lol

Pretty please. :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on April 16, 2019, 02:56:15 PM
I am curious  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Ohh I need to hear this :corn :rollin

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.

Maybe his posts got out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 16, 2019, 03:32:15 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on April 16, 2019, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
I suspect that banning Charlie from the forum might hurt my chances of getting his signature on WDADU were I to try.  :lol

Wait... what? Charlie's banned?  :lol
Oh, but yes.   :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on April 16, 2019, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Ohh I need to hear this :corn :rollin

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.

Maybe his posts got out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

It was only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 16, 2019, 04:21:08 PM
Quote from: Ruba on April 16, 2019, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Ohh I need to hear this :corn :rollin

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.

Maybe his posts got out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

It was only a matter of time.

...until he rode the red.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 16, 2019, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 16, 2019, 04:21:08 PM
Quote from: Ruba on April 16, 2019, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Ohh I need to hear this :corn :rollin

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.

Maybe his posts got out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

It was only a matter of time.

...until he rode the red.

Maybe he'll figure it out someday.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on April 16, 2019, 06:07:16 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Ohh I need to hear this :corn :rollin

Quote from: bosk1 on April 16, 2019, 02:58:30 PM
He crossed the crooked step.

Maybe his posts got out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

Ha ha!

I never knew Dominici was on this forum. Must've been before my time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on April 17, 2019, 12:42:20 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

Didn’t Chris Collins get in some trouble on the forums a few years ago? Or was that never confirmed to be him?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436

Wow! Can’t believe Mike actually posted here, since he pretty much hates DTF :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 17, 2019, 06:21:03 AM
Various members and other people associated with them have posted on the forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheGreatPretender on April 17, 2019, 06:34:33 AM
All righty, here's one. I'm not sure how controversial this is, but usually I don't hear people talking about this at all, and when they do, they don't seem to complain.
I really dislike pretty much every song transition on Octavarium. The songs themselves, as compositions, for the most part I love. Even the Answer Lies Within, which doesn't seem to get a lot of love, is one of my favorite of their piano-driven ballads.
But this thing they did where the songs transition into each other feels to me like a waste of time to me at best, and an annoyance at the worst. I know, the whole album is filled with all sorts of nuggets, and that those transitions are supposed to represent the black keys on the piano or whatever, but my appreciation for nuggets doesn't supersede my desire to listen to music without long, boring intros and outros, especially ones that bleed right into the musical parts of the songs, such as the intro to I Walk Beside You. And don't even get me started on the intro to Sacrificed Sons.

So yeah, after ripping the CD, I edited the whole thing down to simply be a collection of songs that start and end concisely, without any overlong intros and outros.
The "Greatest Hit" versions of I Walk Beside You, Sacrificed Songs, and The Answer Lies Within were a godsend, since they omitted the chirping birds and ticking clock that overlaps with the introductions of the songs. And that's pretty much exclusively the way I listen to this album these days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 17, 2019, 08:02:27 AM
^I get it^.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 08:05:04 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436

Wow! Can’t believe Mike actually posted here, since he pretty much hates DTF :eek

There would be no DTF without MP.  The original forum would still be on DT.net.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 17, 2019, 06:34:33 AM
All righty, here's one. I'm not sure how controversial this is, but usually I don't hear people talking about this at all, and when they do, they don't seem to complain.
I really dislike pretty much every song transition on Octavarium. The songs themselves, as compositions, for the most part I love. Even the Answer Lies Within, which doesn't seem to get a lot of love, is one of my favorite of their piano-driven ballads.
But this thing they did where the songs transition into each other feels to me like a waste of time to me at best, and an annoyance at the worst. I know, the whole album is filled with all sorts of nuggets, and that those transitions are supposed to represent the black keys on the piano or whatever, but my appreciation for nuggets doesn't supersede my desire to listen to music without long, boring intros and outros, especially ones that bleed right into the musical parts of the songs, such as the intro to I Walk Beside You. And don't even get me started on the intro to Sacrificed Sons.

So yeah, after ripping the CD, I edited the whole thing down to simply be a collection of songs that start and end concisely, without any overlong intros and outros.
The "Greatest Hit" versions of I Walk Beside You, Sacrificed Songs, and The Answer Lies Within were a godsend, since they omitted the chirping birds and ticking clock that overlaps with the introductions of the songs. And that's pretty much exclusively the way I listen to this album these days.

Some of these bother me, some don't, but the worst imo is the outro to Panic Attack and how it drags for a whole minute before NE starts :tdwn

Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 08:05:04 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436

Wow! Can’t believe Mike actually posted here, since he pretty much hates DTF :eek

There would be no DTF without MP.  The original forum would still be on DT.net.

I don't have the backstory to that, and I'm not trying to imply MP isn't important to DTF or anything, but we all know he hates this place, he's said that mutiple times, even to Bosk's face, and all his posts here were post split, anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:19:28 AM
The backstory is that MP shut down the DT.net forum because he supposedly hated that too.  Anyway...enough about that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 10:30:01 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:19:28 AM
The backstory is that MP shut down the DT.net forum because he supposedly hated that too.  Anyway...enough about that.

Well...yes, but there's a bit more to it than that.  To flesh it out just a bit more, MP did not read that forum and was not active on it.  But, mostly through second-hand information, he had been informed of growing "negativity" on that forum through the years.  Some of this was justified, but most was not and was exaggerated.  MP told the webmaster and forum admin, who had also become detached from actually reading, posting on, and running the forum to either clamp down on it or shut it down.  He had no interest in getting involved in the forum, so he pulled the plug.  More detail on that and how this place came to be here:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39518.0
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:53:11 AM
Wow, been a long time since I read that.  Good stuff Bosk.  BTW, I remember Borlag here in the early days.  Whatever happened to him?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on April 17, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 08:05:04 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436

Wow! Can’t believe Mike actually posted here, since he pretty much hates DTF :eek

There would be no DTF without MP.  The original forum would still be on DT.net.

I don't have the backstory to that, and I'm not trying to imply MP isn't important to DTF or anything, but we all know he hates this place, he's said that mutiple times, even to Bosk's face, and all his posts here were post split, anyway.

Yup, also told me he last September he didn't like this place and needed people to have his back here.  I certainly got his attention by saying DTF  :lol but now that I see people were feeding him info, maybe that makes sense for him to feel that way about here. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 17, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:53:11 AM
BTW, I remember Borlag here in the early days.  Whatever happened to him?

Who. Fucking. Cares.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on April 17, 2019, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.
He disappeared from GDT a long time ago, too. IIRC, he gave away his whole bootleg collection, or at least most of it and stopped collecting boots. Not sure what led to it, but I think he might have recently become a father and family life was taking a priority for him, altho I'm pretty sure there were other underlying things that were also involved in his disappearance.
 
 
Quote from: TAC on April 17, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:53:11 AM
BTW, I remember Borlag here in the early days.  Whatever happened to him?
Who. Fucking. Cares.
Just a hunch, but I'm gonna guess Dublagent66 does.   :-*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on April 17, 2019, 12:12:40 PM
Wow.  I had no idea that any of that went down. I always lurked on the MP forum because when I was a new fan, other fans told me his forum was really more like the band's forum and I'd get the latest news there and posts from him.  So I never went to the official DT forum and when I started checking this one out I was surprised it was "unofficial."


I also had no idea that the 5/8 forum had anything to do with this place.  No disrespect meant to anyone who frequents that forum - I don't know enough about it at all to characterize the whole forum.  But what I did see makes me really glad that you felt the way you did Bosk, about having a place that DT would be comfortable with.  I thought it was just a random music forum that had members who really don't like DT!  I saw some pretty horrible personal comments about MP on that forum.  I thought it was really disturbing (and I'm someone who doesn't really care for how MP went about things after he left).


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 17, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:53:11 AM
BTW, I remember Borlag here in the early days.  Whatever happened to him?

Who. Fucking. Cares.

Tim, I'm shocked. :omg: I take it Borlag wasn't one of your favorite guys.  :biggrin:


Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.

Check this out.  A little bit of irony that might amuse you.  Not sure if you remember, but I was banned for a week by Borlag for getting out of hand when I was arguing with you about something.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nattmorker on April 17, 2019, 01:04:31 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on April 17, 2019, 06:34:33 AM
All righty, here's one. I'm not sure how controversial this is, but usually I don't hear people talking about this at all, and when they do, they don't seem to complain.
I really dislike pretty much every song transition on Octavarium. The songs themselves, as compositions, for the most part I love. Even the Answer Lies Within, which doesn't seem to get a lot of love, is one of my favorite of their piano-driven ballads.
But this thing they did where the songs transition into each other feels to me like a waste of time to me at best, and an annoyance at the worst. I know, the whole album is filled with all sorts of nuggets, and that those transitions are supposed to represent the black keys on the piano or whatever, but my appreciation for nuggets doesn't supersede my desire to listen to music without long, boring intros and outros, especially ones that bleed right into the musical parts of the songs, such as the intro to I Walk Beside You. And don't even get me started on the intro to Sacrificed Sons.

So yeah, after ripping the CD, I edited the whole thing down to simply be a collection of songs that start and end concisely, without any overlong intros and outros.
The "Greatest Hit" versions of I Walk Beside You, Sacrificed Songs, and The Answer Lies Within were a godsend, since they omitted the chirping birds and ticking clock that overlaps with the introductions of the songs. And that's pretty much exclusively the way I listen to this album these days.

Some of these bother me, some don't, but the worst imo is the outro to Panic Attack and how it drags for a whole minute before NE starts :tdwn

I agree, that transition is too long. I also edited the transitions, especially that one, it is too long of a wait to start the next song, either NE or whatever other song when I'm listening in shuffle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.

Check this out.  A little bit of irony that might amuse you.  Not sure if you remember, but I was banned for a week by Borlag for getting out of hand when I was arguing with you about something.  :lol

:lol  I can't remember now, but I wonder if it was your specific case that I was telling him to chill out about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 17, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
Is 5/8 still a thing? I have an account over there, but have probably only browsed over there 2 or 3 times before saying screw it. I like it better here.

Also, when did Dreamtheater.net kill their "Official" forum?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 02:37:35 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.

Check this out.  A little bit of irony that might amuse you.  Not sure if you remember, but I was banned for a week by Borlag for getting out of hand when I was arguing with you about something.  :lol

:lol  I can't remember now, but I wonder if it was your specific case that I was telling him to chill out about.

I suppose it could've been.  I was actually surprised that he banned me instead of you banning me.  Probably because you were/are more forgiving than he was.  Although, I probably still deserved it.  Kind of amusing now in hindsight.  :biggrin:


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on April 17, 2019, 12:06:21 PM
 
Quote from: TAC on April 17, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 10:53:11 AM
BTW, I remember Borlag here in the early days.  Whatever happened to him?
Who. Fucking. Cares.
Just a hunch, but I'm gonna guess Dublagent66 does.   :-*

Actually I really don't, was just curious. ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on April 17, 2019, 03:06:57 PM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 17, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
Is 5/8 still a thing? I have an account over there, but have probably only browsed over there 2 or 3 times before saying screw it. I like it better here.


5/8 is still a thing. I lurk there on occasion, but it's basically just a bunch of whiny dudes pretending like they hate Dream Theater yet commenting on any and everything related to Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 17, 2019, 05:44:13 PM
I was a mod at dt.net for like 4-5 days shortly before the shutdown until Portnoy got wind of it and told the main guy to de-mod me because I was too big of a critic. :lol :lol 

To be fair, I was pretty critical of the band at the time, for a variety of reasons, so, yeah. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 17, 2019, 06:20:56 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on April 17, 2019, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 17, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
I have no idea.  He was a mod here for a bit.  But after I told him to mellow out when he was being a bit too heard on forum members, he got mad and left.  I saw him posting on Grateful Dreams for awhile after that, but lost track of him.
He disappeared from GDT a long time ago, too. IIRC, he gave away his whole bootleg collection, or at least most of it and stopped collecting boots. Not sure what led to it, but I think he might have recently become a father and family life was taking a priority for him, although I'm pretty sure there were other underlying things that were also involved in his disappearance.

That's funny. We had a blowout over just that. He was bragging about going to concerts and all this other stuff, and I made a comment about how do you find the time with a young child. I wasn't critiquing, just having a conversation, and he f'n flipped out on me. How dare I question his parenting and shit like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on April 17, 2019, 09:28:02 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on April 17, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 08:26:11 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on April 17, 2019, 08:05:04 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 17, 2019, 06:15:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on April 16, 2019, 10:31:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?

MP joined under the name chaossystem  :hat

But in all seriousness, MP does have an account & made a few posts in here a long while ago: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=6436

Wow! Can’t believe Mike actually posted here, since he pretty much hates DTF :eek

There would be no DTF without MP.  The original forum would still be on DT.net.

I don't have the backstory to that, and I'm not trying to imply MP isn't important to DTF or anything, but we all know he hates this place, he's said that mutiple times, even to Bosk's face, and all his posts here were post split, anyway.

Yup, also told me he last September he didn't like this place and needed people to have his back here.  I certainly got his attention by saying DTF  :lol but now that I see people were feeding him info, maybe that makes sense for him to feel that way about here.
I haven't been here regularly for a while but when I last was, there was a fair bit of MP hate as a consensus. I could totally see why he wouldn't love that. He strikes me as someone who craves acceptance, so that probably makes him more sensitive to criticism (I know it does for me!).

Then again, MrDT2 says that conservatives are being censored on here, so maybe things have just changed radically in the last couple years  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 06:52:24 AM
Back on topic: I've talked about my inabilty to understand pieces like Take The Time or MP's drumming, but I actually think that TTT may have worked rather well on FII (arguably even better than on I/W), seeing as quite a few aspects in it have that kind of looser, groove-driven basic idea. (which FII had too. I don't know how else to describe what I mean) I've decided to be neutral here (as I always do my best to be, although it doesn't always work) since there may be some of us here who like TTT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2019, 07:11:09 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 06:52:24 AM
Back on topic: I've talked about my inabilty to understand pieces like Take The Time or MP's drumming, but I actually think that TTT may have worked rather well on FII (arguably even better than on I/W), seeing as quite a few aspects in it have that kind of looser, groove-driven basic idea. (which FII had too. I don't know how else to describe what I mean) I've decided to be neutral here (as I always do my best to be, although it doesn't always work) since there may be some of us here who like TTT.
Neutral isn't controversial. 

However, I would imagine that most people like Take The Time.  What don't you understand about it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 07:21:24 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2019, 07:11:09 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 06:52:24 AM
Back on topic: I've talked about my inabilty to understand pieces like Take The Time or MP's drumming, but I actually think that TTT may have worked rather well on FII (arguably even better than on I/W), seeing as quite a few aspects in it have that kind of looser, groove-driven basic idea. (which FII had too. I don't know how else to describe what I mean) I've decided to be neutral here (as I always do my best to be, although it doesn't always work) since there may be some of us here who like TTT.
Neutral isn't controversial. 

However, I would imagine that most people like Take The Time.  What don't you understand about it?
you have to imagine the structure of the song for a second: The intro is logical to me, but then the verses and some sections of the pre-choruses are not. Completely nonsensical to me. I always ask myself: What the hell is that supposed to do here and why is it there? (and then there are a few more where that question comes up to me again, but what do I know.) That's the best answer I can give right now. There you go.

(add to that that I prefer MM for his logical approach to music, but that's an entirely different subject)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2019, 09:04:44 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 07:21:24 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on April 30, 2019, 07:11:09 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2019, 06:52:24 AM
Back on topic: I've talked about my inabilty to understand pieces like Take The Time or MP's drumming, but I actually think that TTT may have worked rather well on FII (arguably even better than on I/W), seeing as quite a few aspects in it have that kind of looser, groove-driven basic idea. (which FII had too. I don't know how else to describe what I mean) I've decided to be neutral here (as I always do my best to be, although it doesn't always work) since there may be some of us here who like TTT.
Neutral isn't controversial. 

However, I would imagine that most people like Take The Time.  What don't you understand about it?
you have to imagine the structure of the song for a second: The intro is logical to me, but then the verses and some sections of the pre-choruses are not. Completely nonsensical to me. I always ask myself: What the hell is that supposed to do here and why is it there? (and then there are a few more where that question comes up to me again, but what do I know.) That's the best answer I can give right now. There you go.
I don't know that "logical" is the adjective I would use. 

But I guess I don't get what you don't get.  I mean, it has some funky time signatures, but for DT, the song is fairly straightforward.  It's an unconventional structure, but I don't see how it is that hard to follow, especially for a DT fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rob24 on May 04, 2019, 01:59:32 PM
Prophets of War is a masterpiece. A microcosm of a song that contains a lot of weird stylistic elements which shouldn't fit together but it works because of the emotional intensity and all around mastery.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 04, 2019, 10:13:46 PM
Quote from: Rob24 on May 04, 2019, 01:59:32 PM
Prophets of War is a masterpiece. A microcosm of a song that contains a lot of weird stylistic elements which shouldn't fit together but it works because of the emotional intensity and all around mastery.

THAT’S what I call controversial :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 05, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
Wither is a top 10 DT song for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on May 05, 2019, 05:34:15 PM
Viper King should have been the opening track and the lead single of DoT and UA the bonus track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 05, 2019, 06:38:07 PM
Meh, imo LaBrie and Viper King don't mix. It makes sense as a bonus track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on May 05, 2019, 07:27:16 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 05, 2019, 06:38:07 PM
Meh, imo LaBrie and Viper King don't mix. It makes sense as a bonus track.
Yeah, I was so pumped for VK and then as soon as James comes in and sings in that higher register, it just crushed every ounce of excitement that I had. It didn't work for me.

Glad others enjoy it though!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on May 05, 2019, 08:17:54 PM
JLB is probably the reason I listen to Viper King at all.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rattlehead on May 06, 2019, 05:40:42 PM
It's grown on me, but it still doesn't really fit on the album - it makes perfect sense as a bonus track to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 06, 2019, 05:42:46 PM
His voice in the first verse annoys me, but I still love the song. It's probably my favorite on the entire album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 06, 2019, 06:54:09 PM
It's a B side. And an excellent one at that. It's not part of the album proper, so just sit back and enjoy the little extra.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 06, 2019, 08:02:37 PM
VK is one of the best songs on the album. As far as I'm concerned, it's earned its place on the album. :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 06, 2019, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 06, 2019, 08:02:37 PM
VK is one of the best songs on the album. As far as I'm concerned, it's earned its place on the album. :yarr

 :metal :metal :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cygnusx1jg on May 06, 2019, 08:43:33 PM
They should have put Viper King as the second song on the record, just like the other song about a car (Red Barchetta on Moving Pictures) is the second song.

You know, the second best band ever giving a tribute to the best band ever. Oops, there I go being controversial!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2019, 10:46:50 AM
FII is miles better than SFAM
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on May 07, 2019, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 07, 2019, 10:46:50 AM
FII is miles better than SFAM

That is about as controversial as it gets!     I like FII but SFAM is my favorite DT album.

I can't get past Burning my soul, you not me, just let me breath, hollow years on FII.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on May 07, 2019, 12:15:19 PM
Yeah definitely controversial.

Wouldn't put it as high as Scenes, but I'll say I prefer it over all their albums since SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 07, 2019, 02:04:57 PM
Yeah I know. SFAM is a milestone album etc. but it's so dreadfully boring to me and the best moments are the ones like Through Her Eyes and The Spirit Carries On when they're a bit restrained.. FII at least has some groove even after all the label and producer tampering. Just can't handle all the shred noodling and I've never been huge on concept albums anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on May 07, 2019, 02:19:49 PM
call me strange, but I think some sections of S2N might have made sense on FII too (and Room 137 as well, as a whole)
Oh and another one: I don't know or understand why Nafaryus changes sides in TA (that and the apparent focus on family values). Shouldn't have happened. I would have preferred battles being put to music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on May 08, 2019, 10:18:54 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on April 16, 2019, 09:57:55 PM
Do we know if any other DT member, past or present, also joined the forum?
JP joined and posted once in 2013, but his post is no longer showing up. Charlie Dominici joined and posted for a while, until 2011. And, as mentioned by someone else earlier, MP joined and posted during the ADToE era. (Not a DT member, but JP's wife Rena also joined during the ADToE era, and has posted a few messages on behalf of her husband.)

You can find out all of that and more in the 'Members' section of the forum, and sorting by 'Position' - the ones you are looking for are the 'VIP members'.

Quote from: Lethean on April 17, 2019, 12:12:40 PM
Wow.  I had no idea that any of that went down. I always lurked on the MP forum because when I was a new fan, other fans told me his forum was really more like the band's forum and I'd get the latest news there and posts from him.  So I never went to the official DT forum and when I started checking this one out I was surprised it was "unofficial."
Last year, I put together a brief history of the DT websites and fan communities, going back to the mid '90s. If you find it interesting, you can check it out:
Other fans like bosk, noxon, Weymolith and Setlist Scotty helped me with that, and have interesting stories to share.

Quote from: JayOctavarium on April 17, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
Also, when did Dreamtheater.net kill their "Official" forum?
It seems they closed it sometime in the first week of November 2006. When you look at archived versions of DT.net from November 3, there's still a fully-working 'message board' link at the top, but the link is no longer there in November 7 versions. You can check it out here:

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on May 07, 2019, 02:19:49 PM
Oh and another one: I don't know or understand why Nafaryus changes sides in TA (that and the apparent focus on family values). Shouldn't have happened. I would have preferred battles being put to music.
Well, Faythe had been stabbed by her brother, and Gabriel (plus a thousand other voices) saved her. What I get from Nafaryus' lines in "Losing Faythe" and "Astonishing" is that he realises he had been too proud and selfish all that time, and he felt responsible for (almost) losing his daughter.

But I agree: the battle section in "The Path That Divides" is too cool. :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 08, 2019, 11:03:52 PM
I think Chris Collins also joined this forum and got into a fight with a bunch of members. Or maybe I'm thinking of Dominici.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on May 09, 2019, 06:51:14 AM
I may be the only one here who likes all the DT cover art for what it is and that includes Hugh Syme's art.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: the_silent_man on May 09, 2019, 07:05:51 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on May 09, 2019, 06:51:14 AM
I may be the only one here who likes all the DT cover art for what it is and that includes Hugh Syme's art.

I like/love most of them, apart from WD&DU (THAT hairy armpit!  :lol + no classic DT font - ugly and cheesy as hell cover) and ADTOE (love the album, like the general concept of the art, but the execution looks so cheap and basic).
Overall their covers are better than a lot of metal album covers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 09, 2019, 08:56:33 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on May 09, 2019, 06:51:14 AM
I may be the only one here who likes all the DT cover art for what it is and that includes Hugh Syme's art.
I'd say I'm basically in the same boat but with some exceptions. While the FII artwork is OK, I wish they would've gone with the other option that Storm offered up, which ended up being used for the Pink Floyd compilation Echoes. Also, I wish they would've been a bit more creative with the replacement artwork for LSFNY - what they used as replacement artwork is very dull, IMO. Same is true for the art of L@B. Regarding Hugh Syme's artwork, I don't have a problem with the ideas, but the execution is sloppy in most cases, unlike what he did for Rush.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 09, 2019, 09:00:57 AM
I would assume that the absurdingly horrible coincidence of the LSFNY cover and 9/11 forced them to think on their feet and find a possible solution ASAP, rather than taking their time to conceive a whole new art.

I believe it was a "Oh shyt, what do we do now?" moment for them, that's why they just slapped the Majesty logo on it and got done with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zappafrank2112 on May 09, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
Controversial opinion:

WDADU is a top 5 DT album
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on May 09, 2019, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on May 09, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
Controversial opinion:

WDADU is a top 5 DT album

:iagree:

It's my third favourite, to be exact.

Quote from: Kattelox on May 07, 2019, 10:46:50 AM
FII is miles better than SFAM

Maybe not miles better but yeah, better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 15, 2019, 07:20:17 AM
Listening to DOT and I’m going to say this is easily their third best album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on May 15, 2019, 10:36:18 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 15, 2019, 07:20:17 AM
Listening to DOT and I’m going to say this is easily their third best album.
wow ok, that's controversial
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 15, 2019, 01:11:33 PM
At this point I'd rank it as their 3rd best album with MM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on May 15, 2019, 04:20:18 PM
I actually like Another Won quite a bit (great songwriting and great melodies and all that), it may have made sense on WDADU in place of Status Seeker.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 15, 2019, 09:38:05 PM
I agree with that. Another Won is a great song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 15, 2019, 10:21:36 PM
I had never heard Another Won until Score was released and I totally enjoyed it. I am sure I have heard the original version (with much less joy), though I don't know where since I don't own it
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: John II on May 16, 2019, 03:29:46 AM
My controversial opinion is that 8vm is 4th or 5th best DT album.
Also, UA is annoying because it was so good, and the rest of D/T was a bit lame.
WfM > D/T
Finally, I used to hate PMU... I got better though (required electroshock therapy)
I lied about the final bit... not DT related but I just can't get King Crimson... ITCotKC is the only album I've heard from them, and it's a good album, but only good. I definitely don't like it enough to go and listen to other KC albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Another_Won on May 16, 2019, 08:37:32 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 15, 2019, 09:38:05 PM
I agree with that. Another Won is a great song.
Yes, a great song :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 16, 2019, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: John II on May 16, 2019, 03:29:46 AM
My controversial opinion is that 8vm is 4th or 5th best DT album.
Is that controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 16, 2019, 09:40:48 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 16, 2019, 09:23:27 AM
Quote from: John II on May 16, 2019, 03:29:46 AM
My controversial opinion is that 8vm is 4th or 5th best DT album.
Is that controversial?

I don't think so at all.  I rank I&W, SFAM and SDOIT at the top, followed closely by Awake.  8VA is in the next tier -- not necessarily 5th, but right there.  And, judging from all the recent "tier making," lots of folks have in that range.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BeatriceNB on May 17, 2019, 03:44:54 PM
I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.
Some say it's a failure, and I couldn't disagree more. I just love every tiny bit of the album, including the lyrics (and yes, that includes the music player section).

Not sure if controversial is the word, but definitely isn't something you read normally.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 17, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Not my cup of tea, but nothing wrong with liking Astonishing. But not sure I would call a 2 hour fantasy rock-opera about Lord Nefaryus “mature”.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 17, 2019, 08:29:03 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 17, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Not my cup of tea, but nothing wrong with liking Astonishing. But not sure I would call a 2 hour fantasy rock-opera about Lord Nefaryus “mature”.  :lol

Why not?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 17, 2019, 08:50:25 PM
I freaking LOVE The Astonishing. Sure, it can run a bit long, but there are so many great melodies on this. It's like a classic moment every 30 seconds. I do have an Abridged version of The Astonishing that I'd put up against anything in their catalog. Just the way they "scored" the music first, then added all of the other bits is amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on May 17, 2019, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 17, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Not my cup of tea, but nothing wrong with liking Astonishing. But not sure I would call a 2 hour fantasy rock-opera about Lord Nefaryus “mature”.  :lol

I guess you're overlooking the entire story of oppression and rebellion all because you don't like the name of one of the characters.

I guess every fantasy rock-opera ever is also immature.

I guess the insane musical effort that JP and JR put into it along with a huge production doesn't mean anything either.

 :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 17, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
Quote from: PetFish on May 17, 2019, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 17, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Not my cup of tea, but nothing wrong with liking Astonishing. But not sure I would call a 2 hour fantasy rock-opera about Lord Nefaryus “mature”.  :lol

I guess you're overlooking the entire story of oppression and rebellion all because you don't like the name of one of the characters.

I guess every fantasy rock-opera ever is also immature.

I guess the insane musical effort that JP and JR put into it along with a huge production doesn't mean anything either.

 :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:
Say what you want, the names in that story are distractingly dumb.

So is the rest of the storytelling tbh
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2019, 02:14:00 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on May 17, 2019, 03:44:54 PM
I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.
I would question how "musically diverse" it is. One of the problems I have with TA is the fact that so many of the songs seem to start off as piano-based ballads. Besides there being too much dialog between characters, I would say a lack of musical diversity is a big reason why the album ranks lowest in their catalog for me. Many of their other albums are more musically diverse, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 18, 2019, 05:26:31 AM
Quote from: Grizz on May 17, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
Say what you want, the names in that story are distractingly dumb.


Honest question: do you like Game of Thrones and if so do you think some of the names of the characters in that show are distractingly dumb?  Because JP is a huge fan of that show, and I think it's clear that he chose unusual names in the style of GOT for the Astonishing characters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 18, 2019, 07:52:23 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 18, 2019, 05:26:31 AM
Quote from: Grizz on May 17, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
Say what you want, the names in that story are distractingly dumb.


Honest question: do you like Game of Thrones and if so do you think some of the names of the characters in that show are distractingly dumb?  Because JP is a huge fan of that show, and I think it's clear that he chose unusual names in the style of GOT for the Astonishing characters.

I think some of the names in The Astonishing aren't 'dumb' but they're close because they're so on the nose. Two of them are biblical in nature - Gabriel (good guy Gabriel, has angelic voice, heart of gold, The Savior), and Faythe (nuff said) - and the villainous nefarious tyrant is named... Nafaryus. Like really.  :lol Big difference between those names and creating entire family trees and ancestry and naming schemes amongst the families (Aemon, Aegon, Daemon, Daenerys, Viserys, Aerys...)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 18, 2019, 09:06:27 AM
Well, like or not the choice, but Petrucci surely went intentionally for an over the top name. Do you think he came up with the name "Lord Nafaryus" for a villain and was dead serious about it? he obviously accepted that it would have been seen as a cheesy name.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 18, 2019, 11:36:29 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 18, 2019, 05:26:31 AM
Quote from: Grizz on May 17, 2019, 10:33:24 PM
Say what you want, the names in that story are distractingly dumb.


Honest question: do you like Game of Thrones and if so do you think some of the names of the characters in that show are distractingly dumb?  Because JP is a huge fan of that show, and I think it's clear that he chose unusual names in the style of GOT for the Astonishing characters.
Never watched it. Doesn't really pique my interest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 18, 2019, 03:56:54 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 18, 2019, 11:36:29 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 18, 2019, 05:26:31 AM
Honest question: do you like Game of Thrones and if so do you think some of the names of the characters in that show are distractingly dumb?  Because JP is a huge fan of that show, and I think it's clear that he chose unusual names in the style of GOT for the Astonishing characters.
Never watched it. Doesn't really pique my interest.

Amen, Brother!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: BeatriceNB on May 18, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2019, 02:14:00 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on May 17, 2019, 03:44:54 PM
I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.
I would question how "musically diverse" it is. One of the problems I have with TA is the fact that so many of the songs seem to start off as piano-based ballads. Besides there being too much dialog between characters, I would say a lack of musical diversity is a big reason why the album ranks lowest in their catalog for me. Many of their other albums are more musically diverse, IMO.

On the bigger picture (pun intended) it may seem that the songs are similar to each other, but the arrangements/instrumentation makes it really diverse, in my opinion. On the top of my head, you have the Tango section on Lord Nafaryus, the Jazz+blast bears section in Three Days, the bagpipes on The X Aspect, the instrumental section on A New Beginning (including the Satriani tribute), the straightforward Metal of Moment Of Betrayal, the mandolin on Hymn Of Thousand voices, the Rock anthem nature of Our New World, the '70s Prog intro on A Life Left Behind...

The only other really diverse album I can think of is SDOIT, which is the most "Proggy" borderline experimental one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 18, 2019, 09:00:48 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2019, 02:14:00 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on May 17, 2019, 03:44:54 PM
I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.
I would question how "musically diverse" it is. One of the problems I have with TA is the fact that so many of the songs seem to start off as piano-based ballads. Besides there being too much dialog between characters, I would say a lack of musical diversity is a big reason why the album ranks lowest in their catalog for me. Many of their other albums are more musically diverse, IMO.

I don't know. I mean, the piano is definitely there, but I would say that it's only noticeable because the piano is so criminally absent from the rest of their catalog.

My biggest problem with The Astonishing (and I love it) is that many of the ideas aren't built upon. Feels like every 30 seconds there's an amazing part, and then BAM it's gone.

Honestly I'm trying to think what is more musically diverse. Maybe 8V, but overall, that album stinks. Systematic Chaos? Maybe, but for some reason, that album is universally panned. Train Of Thought? No way!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on May 18, 2019, 10:23:01 PM
It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 18, 2019, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: PetFish on May 18, 2019, 10:23:01 PM
It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.

Devil's advocate: Volante99 didn't dismiss the music, he just used it as an example of how he doesn't find the music "mature".

Quote from: Volante99 on May 17, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Not my cup of tea, but nothing wrong with liking Astonishing. But not sure I would call a 2 hour fantasy rock-opera about Lord Nefaryus “mature”.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on May 19, 2019, 10:08:57 AM
Quote from: PetFish on May 18, 2019, 10:23:01 PM
It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.
hurr everyone who don't like da stonishing is shallow

Many things about The Astonishing have contributed to my distaste for it. Probably the first one I noticed was the story itself. The cheesy character names are not the issue but they're pretty emblematic of a lot of its problems.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 19, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 19, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on May 18, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2019, 02:14:00 AM
Quote from: BeatriceNB on May 17, 2019, 03:44:54 PM
I have to say that, in my opinion, The Astonishing  is their most mature, musically diverse and interesting album, and has every member on their musical prime.
I would question how "musically diverse" it is. One of the problems I have with TA is the fact that so many of the songs seem to start off as piano-based ballads. Besides there being too much dialog between characters, I would say a lack of musical diversity is a big reason why the album ranks lowest in their catalog for me. Many of their other albums are more musically diverse, IMO.
On the bigger picture (pun intended) it may seem that the songs are similar to each other, but the arrangements/instrumentation makes it really diverse, in my opinion. On the top of my head, you have the Tango section on Lord Nafaryus, the Jazz+blast bears section in Three Days, the bagpipes on The X Aspect, the instrumental section on A New Beginning (including the Satriani tribute), the straightforward Metal of Moment Of Betrayal, the mandolin on Hymn Of Thousand voices, the Rock anthem nature of Our New World, the '70s Prog intro on A Life Left Behind...

The only other really diverse album I can think of is SDOIT, which is the most "Proggy" borderline experimental one.
Quote from: TAC on May 18, 2019, 09:00:48 PM
Honestly I'm trying to think what is more musically diverse. Maybe 8V, but overall, that album stinks. Systematic Chaos? Maybe, but for some reason, that album is universally panned. Train Of Thought? No way!
There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 19, 2019, 05:34:55 PM
Quote from: Grizz on May 19, 2019, 10:08:57 AM
Quote from: PetFish on May 18, 2019, 10:23:01 PM
It's a new level of pop-tart shallow when DT fans dismiss the music simply because of the names of some fictional characters.
hurr everyone who don't like da stonishing is shallow

Many things about The Astonishing have contributed to my distaste for it. Probably the first one I noticed was the story itself. The cheesy character names are not the issue but they're pretty emblematic of a lot of its problems.

Exactly.

Let me clarify; my problem is less with the character names and story. All of that could be forgiven. It’s more just the extreme bloat of the album that I take issue with and it’s even more frustrating because there is some EXCELLENT music buried in all of it. Had they shown just a tad bit of restraint...

THAT’S the main reason why I wouldn’t call it “mature”...although the plot and character names certainly don’t help matters.

I WILL give credit where credit is due; the Astonishing concert was a really enjoyable experience. Listening to the album front to back? Not so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on May 19, 2019, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 19, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.

I don't think the lyrics are really the problem with The Count of Tuscany. It's mostly the presentation of them. If they were sung normally, the lyrics would be set the tone quite nicely for the song and continue to tell the story. But when you're growling "All the finest wines improve with age" and "A bearded gentleman...historian" it just sounds weird because there's a total disconnect between the music and the lyrics. Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember I think.

Honestly, without the growls, Count of Tuscany would easily be Top 5 DT. I still think it's one of their best songs in spite of the growls.

I do agree that sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed. But what's cheesy for one person is cool for another. For me personally, two examples are the "now I can finally reveal how music makes me feel" part of A New Beginning and "Doom. Gloom. The world goes boom." part of Everybody Dies by Ayreon. I LOVE those parts and they're two bits that just make me totally happy because I think they're so cool. But I acknowledge that the general opinion I've seen is that they're dripping with cheese.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2019, 06:39:31 PM
Wait...there are growls in The Count Of Tuscany?? WHERE??


The Count Of Tuscany is amazing and there is nothing wrong with the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 19, 2019, 06:45:52 PM
Quote from: Ninjabait on May 19, 2019, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: Zook on May 19, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Remember back in the day when someone posted alternate "non-cheesy" lyrics to The Count of Tuscany? Remember how terrible they were? Sometimes cheesy is exactly what's needed.

I don't think the lyrics are really the problem with The Count of Tuscany. It's mostly the presentation of them. If they were sung normally, the lyrics would be set the tone quite nicely for the song and continue to tell the story. But when you're growling "All the finest wines improve with age" and "A bearded gentleman...historian" it just sounds weird because there's a total disconnect between the music and the lyrics. Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember I think.

Honestly, without the growls, Count of Tuscany would easily be Top 5 DT. I still think it's one of their best songs in spite of the growls.

TL;DR everything would've been better without MP vocals (or at least his last couple albums with DT) :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ninjabait on May 19, 2019, 06:46:09 PM
Well, I double checked and growls is not the right word, my mistake. I'm not sure what to call that style of vocals, but it's that uniquely metal sound that is harsher than normal sung vocals. Kinda like vocal fry but different.

My point still stands tho, and if they just had LaBrie sing those normally without the weird metal vocal affect then it would be totally fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 19, 2019, 06:48:19 PM
I think MP's background vocals are just fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 19, 2019, 09:24:56 PM
Most of the TCoT lyrics are lame, and the way many of them are sung doesn't help. For whatever reason I did enjoy the song much more when I saw them do it live in 2011(?) and James did the vocals in a more pleasing way to my ear.

Quote from: TAC on May 19, 2019, 06:48:19 PM
I think MP's background vocals are just fine.

Gonna pick on you for a sec here, but this has been on my mind for a while. While MP's vocals may be "just fine" I think many people have a problem with them (or maybe I speak only for myself) in that the bar is so high for DT's abilities that nothing should pass for "just fine." The band has one of the legendary vocalists in the genre for the past ~30 years, and when another band member's contributions to the vocals is "just fine" it lessens the high quality musicianship the band creates as a whole.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 19, 2019, 09:31:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 19, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 19, 2019, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 19, 2019, 09:31:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 19, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.

Nailed it :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on May 19, 2019, 10:11:59 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 19, 2019, 05:34:55 PM
Exactly.

Let me clarify; my problem is less with the character names and story. All of that could be forgiven. It’s more just the extreme bloat of the album that I take issue with and it’s even more frustrating because there is some EXCELLENT music buried in all of it. Had they shown just a tad bit of restraint...

THAT’S the main reason why I wouldn’t call it “mature”...although the plot and character names certainly don’t help matters.

I WILL give credit where credit is due; the Astonishing concert was a really enjoyable experience. Listening to the album front to back? Not so much.

 :tup  :tup  :tup  :tup  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 19, 2019, 11:13:02 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 19, 2019, 09:31:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 19, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
There are those elements that Beatrice mentions (especially the instrumentation), but for the most part, they are few and fleeting - even the "metal" of Moment of Betrayal really is within only one song and the other examples cited are far less than that. When I think of what albums in DT's catalog are the most musically diverse, the ones that come to my mind would be Awake, FII, SDoIT and 8v. From my viewpoint, each of those albums covers all sorts of musical styles.

I think this is an odd take. While those albums do cover various styles they're all still safely within the realms of metal and prog metal. The Astonishing objectively takes more risks and does things that are literally quite new for the band to play. Name me a single other DT album that has a country-esque toe tapper, a tango section, jazzbeats, prog metal shredding, piano-guitar ballads, a tribute to Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Ayreon-esque machine interludes, two overtures, and a commercial radio-friendly rocker. I just do not see an argument that paints any other album as being more diverse than TA. Six Degrees comes close, but even then, it's not even a fight.
Here's the thing - I won't argue that TA has a bunch of elements that *briefly* appear throughout the album that are different than what they've done before. But that to me doesn't equate to musically diverse when the album is full of 4 minute-ish songs that are ballad heavy with breathy vocals and only occasional sprinklings of heavy parts, proggy parts and the few unusual things previously mentioned. A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums - it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself. So I will repeat that to my ears, those 4 albums I cited are far more musically diverse than TA. Is TA the most unusual of DT's catalog? Absolutely. But that doesn't automatically mean it's more diverse.

And while I might agree that those 4 albums might still fit the "prog metal" label more than any other due purely to the fact that more than 50% of the material does fit that label, there's still plenty of other material on each that certainly doesn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2019, 03:07:27 AM
" it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself."

Respectfully, Scotty, that's the exact same argument I used for The Astonishing. But apparently the elements are not present long enough? Odd take and I think that's objectively incorrect in this context but you do you.  I just don't see how you can invalidate what's present because of how you perceive the rest of the album? Not very logical.

"A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums"

I didn't say it did, but rather, I mentioned all that stuff to point out that this is objectively the most diverse Dream Theater album. I think if we put any 2 DT albums side by side and objectively analyzed what is going on, TA would come out on top as having the most stuffed into its discs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 20, 2019, 10:13:09 AM
First off, for some odd reason, I never listened to The Majesty Demos (actually listening to it, a friend usually had it on in the background).

Upon hearing A'Vision, it's a real shame that they never continued to play this gem. It's a really good song, and honestly would sound amazing being played live. Maybe one day, on the last final tour, or the last final show w/ all previous members (whom are willing) joining on stage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 20, 2019, 03:07:27 AM
" it's what different sorts of sounds and styles are being done within the album itself."

Respectfully, Scotty, that's the exact same argument I used for The Astonishing. But apparently the elements are not present long enough? Odd take and I think that's objectively incorrect in this context but you do you.  I just don't see how you can invalidate what's present because of how you perceive the rest of the album? Not very logical.

"A musically diverse has nothing to do with doing stuff outside of what has been done previously on other albums"

I didn't say it did, but rather, I mentioned all that stuff to point out that this is objectively the most diverse Dream Theater album. I think if we put any 2 DT albums side by side and objectively analyzed what is going on, TA would come out on top as having the most stuffed into its discs.
In a nutshell, yeah, those elements aren't significant enough to stand out. It's not like we're seeing a few or more songs that contain a bunch of tango inspired sections, multiple appearances of bagpipes throughout, JP shredding away several times, etc. The NOMAC tracks are probably the one thing that I would say are significant enough.

From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
But that comparison doesn't even work because those are nowhere near death metal vocals. I'm also not calling TA a particular genre, which you are in that example. It does not matter how long the elements are present - they are present, and a part of the music, you don't just skip past those when you play the song do you? By the logic you just laid out, the diversity only matters if it occurs multiple times. Twice? Three times? A certain length of time? It's all arbitrary to you, which is okay to an extent, but if we're talking about something that's objectively measurable - the diverse elements present on a recorded work - then you can't really deny that The Astonishing fundamentally has more going on.

You use Awake as another example, saying that you can't say Awake is full of samples just because 3 songs use them. That is correct. That is measurable. You can do the exact same with The Astonishing and tally up all the various, different musical elements present with Awake and I guarantee you there's more thrown into the mix on The Astonishing. I'm not saying "The Astonishing is a tango album" because there's a brief tango section in one song. I am however saying it is an album with more musical styles than any of their other albums. You can measure that.

(All this to say that at the end of the day this is a very minor conversation point, but it's fun to pursue. :) )
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 20, 2019, 12:48:30 PM
The Astonishing belongs to the "Awesome" genre.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 12:53:46 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 20, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
But that comparison doesn't even work because those are nowhere near death metal vocals.
Hence why I put it in "quotes" and referred to the vocals as angry, not death metal.   ;)
 
 
Quote from: Kattelox on May 20, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
By the logic you just laid out, the diversity only matters if it occurs multiple times. Twice? Three times? A certain length of time? It's all arbitrary to you, which is okay to an extent, but if we're talking about something that's objectively measurable - the diverse elements present on a recorded work - then you can't really deny that The Astonishing fundamentally has more going on.
Again, if the elements are significant enough. If they last just a matter of seconds, IMO they don't really count. They are minor additions added once and last for so little time, which is why they measure as "zero" to me, especially on an album as long as TA is. Did the band dip their toes into some new musical territory? Sure. But they didn't even wade in, much less dive in with them, especially in comparison to what we've seen on them introducing other elements on previous albums. This is why I personally don't think those elements count. Feel free to disagree - this is the "controversial opinions" thread, after all. 


Quote from: Kattelox on May 20, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
(All this to say that at the end of the day this is a very minor conversation point, but it's fun to pursue. :) )
Agreed. Arguing for argument's sake.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 20, 2019, 01:02:47 PM
But that's like saying there isn't any children's choir on Nightwish's Imaginaerum album because they're only used sparingly in one song (maybe two? I forget). The wide range of styles and sounds is present, therefore they're part of the diversity of the album's sound... I don't understand that logic of yours :) but I guess we'll agree to disagree. :hug:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on May 25, 2019, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.


It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on May 25, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 10:29:01 PM
Quote from: Herrick on May 25, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?

Don’t Look Past Me and To Live Forever. Surrounded and AD were written later and ended up replacing the other two in what would become IAW.

Quote from: 54_diplomats on May 25, 2019, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.


It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.

It doesn’t even feel long to me :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on May 26, 2019, 02:58:34 AM
Quote from: 54_diplomats on May 25, 2019, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.


It's a bit too long but I agree. I think it's underrated.

Ministry is my favorite song on Systematic Chaos.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 26, 2019, 03:47:25 AM
I agree. TMOLS gets too much flack. It's a beautiful song and one of my favourites on the album.


Anyway, here's another controversial opinion: ADTOE is my least favourite of the MM-era albums. There's just too much time dedicated to songs I actively dislike for it to be an enjoyable listening experience for me (those songs being BMUBMD, Outcry, and BTS).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 26, 2019, 05:36:04 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

I agree with both points. To add I don’t think Surrounded is a good song at all, it’s probably the low point of I&W.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 26, 2019, 06:01:01 AM
Quote from: Herrick on May 25, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?
Herrick needs to learn DT acronyms better!   :biggrin:

TMOLS = The Ministry of Lost Souls
DLPM = Don't Look Past Me
TLF = To Live Forever
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on May 26, 2019, 07:44:52 AM
I struggle with acronyms too. :)  I've seen TMOLS enough that I know it, but there are plenty of others where it takes me a bit to work it out. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jammindude on May 26, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
And then there's some of us who see DT songs in licence plates.   TGP is a prefix I see in our state from time to time.   Always makes me think of The Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 26, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM


From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2019, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 26, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM


From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on May 26, 2019, 11:15:50 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2019, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 26, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM


From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.
and Lord Nafaryus largely being a tango. Lord Nafaryus and 3 Days are among my favourites on TA btw. (and this is what I've always found funny, who would introduce a villain with a tango piece of all things :D? And the dixieland blastbeat section is great too. (and the shifting polyrhythms in My Last Farewell as well IMHO.) Then again, Nafaryus isn't a credible villain because of his pieces and because he makes me laugh so much (as opposed to Darth Vader as an example.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2019, 06:25:52 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on May 26, 2019, 11:15:50 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2019, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 26, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM


From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.

Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.

It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album, but I love it as well. Its a nice contrast as I enjoy DT's soft ballad moments and songs. It has neat sections.

It's diverse in how those moments stray from DT's usual genres they do. Like the Jazz blastbeats, and the Rap section in TPTD.
and Lord Nafaryus largely being a tango. Lord Nafaryus and 3 Days are among my favourites on TA btw. (and this is what I've always found funny, who would introduce a villain with a tango piece of all things :D? And the dixieland blastbeat section is great too. (and the shifting polyrhythms in My Last Farewell as well IMHO.) Then again, Nafaryus isn't a credible villain because of his pieces and because he makes me laugh so much (as opposed to Darth Vader as an example.)

I wouldn't have considered him a villain. He is just a Nefarious king whom felt threatened of his reign.

The Astonishing is about how strong Music is, hence how the NOMACS killed Evangeline.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on May 26, 2019, 07:17:31 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

No. Just no.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on May 26, 2019, 08:25:34 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 26, 2019, 06:01:01 AM
Quote from: Herrick on May 25, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 25, 2019, 09:20:13 PM
Two controversial opinions:

1. TMOLS is a great song.

2. DLPM and TLF are better songs than Surrounded and Another Day.

Which songs are those?
Herrick needs to learn DT acronyms better!   :biggrin:

TMOLS = The Ministry of Lost Souls
DLPM = Don't Look Past Me
TLF = To Live Forever

I'm so bad at them that I have to think for a second even when it's an album name.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 26, 2019, 08:53:05 PM
DLPM I could see fitting in to I&W well enough (though not as a replacement for AD or Surrounded), but not TLF, which I think is by far the most overhyped DT rarity on this forum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 26, 2019, 09:20:14 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 26, 2019, 08:53:05 PM
DLPM I could see fitting in to I&W well enough (though not as a replacement for AD or Surrounded), but not TLF, which I think is by far the most overhyped DT rarity on this forum.

...because it's really good? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zappafrank2112 on May 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
Current controversial opinion:

I'd be OK never hearing them play The Spirit Carries On ever again
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 27, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on May 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
Current controversial opinion:

I'd be OK never hearing them play The Spirit Carries On ever again

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 27, 2019, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 27, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on May 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
Current controversial opinion:

I'd be OK never hearing them play The Spirit Carries On ever again

I agree with this.

I think most of us would  :P

But I’ll be damned if that JP solo wasn’t one of the highlights of the show I saw on this tour. Holy heck, blew my head off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 27, 2019, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 26, 2019, 09:59:24 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 20, 2019, 11:42:32 AM


From my perspective, referring to TA as the most musically diverse in the catalog would be the same thing as saying that BCaSL is their "death metal" album just because of MP's angry vocals during *that* section of ANtR, or that Awake is full of samples just because 6:00, The Mirror and SDVest have them. Better yet, since we're talking about TA, it's like saying it's a metal album. Yes those elements are on those respective albums, but certainly are not representative of them. Had those elements you refer to have been more significant throughout TA as were the NOMAC tracks, you wouldn't have an argument from me. But to cite unusual and brief elements as making the album the most musically diverse when the vast majority of it is piano-based ballads with some prog and a bit of metal here and there comes off as misleading, IMO.
Know what is misleading?  Saying the vast majority of The Astonishing is piano-based ballads.  That is not even close to accurate.  If you want to argue that TA isn't musically diverse, have at it, but saying inaccurate things like that to make your point seems odd.
Who's the fact-checker now?   :-* ;D :P
 
 
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 26, 2019, 11:08:52 AM
It's more due to the fact most songs begin with just piano, strings, guitar. It is a ballady album
Exactly! Ben_Jamin understands what I was trying to say. But yeah, in retrospect, my comment was hyperbole.
 
 
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on May 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
Current controversial opinion:

I'd be OK never hearing them play The Spirit Carries On ever again
Add me to that last. I've seen it far more times than I care to count.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on May 28, 2019, 04:50:04 AM
I've never been to the live show, I'd hope they play The Spirit Carries On.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 28, 2019, 11:08:21 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 26, 2019, 08:53:05 PM
DLPM I could see fitting in to I&W well enough (though not as a replacement for AD or Surrounded), but not TLF, which I think is by far the most overhyped DT rarity on this forum.

Given all the hype for the FII rejects, I'm not sure I agree with this, but I agree that TLF is overhyped (although, IMO, it's miles better than DLPM).  In fact, judging from what I've read, my opinion that DT made the right decision on every one of these songs when they didn't include them on an album is fairly controversial.


Quote from: Volante99 on May 27, 2019, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 27, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on May 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
Current controversial opinion:

I'd be OK never hearing them play The Spirit Carries On ever again

I agree with this.

I think most of us would  :P

But I’ll be damned if that JP solo wasn’t one of the highlights of the show I saw on this tour. Holy heck, blew my head off.

I'd be ok with never hearing TSCO or PMU again, but I won't be disappointed when I do hear them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on May 28, 2019, 02:12:02 PM
Status Seeker is one of the best DT songs. Maybe a top ten for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 28, 2019, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: Ruba on May 28, 2019, 02:12:02 PM
Status Seeker is one of the best DT songs. Maybe a top ten for me.

If any song from WDADU had production like their later albums, it'd be a standout song. Such good writing and playing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on May 29, 2019, 01:30:43 PM
Quote from: Ruba on May 28, 2019, 02:12:02 PM
Status Seeker is one of the best DT songs. Maybe a top ten for me.
Very underrated..also Light Fuse and Get Away..I really wished they played these more often!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 29, 2019, 02:01:09 PM
Quote from: DTA on May 28, 2019, 03:49:39 PM
If any song from WDADU had production like their later albums, it'd be a standout song. Such good writing and playing.
Agreed! While they don't have the production of their later albums, do a search for remixes of Status Seeker and Afterlife, where you can hear some improvement on those 2 songs.  ;)
 
 
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on May 29, 2019, 01:30:43 PM
Quote from: Ruba on May 28, 2019, 02:12:02 PM
Status Seeker is one of the best DT songs. Maybe a top ten for me.
Very underrated..also Light Fuse and Get Away..I really wished they played these more often!
Agreed. Sadly, I doubt that will ever happen again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 05, 2019, 06:04:31 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 28, 2019, 11:08:21 AM
In fact, judging from what I've read, my opinion that DT made the right decision on every one of these songs when they didn't include them on an album is fairly controversial.
I'm one of the people who hype these songs, but I don't think they would have fit on any of the albums. DT albums are pretty long as it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on June 12, 2019, 02:33:23 PM
Here's another one for you: There is the version of TBOT on 'Youtube where we see MP recording it in the studio (this one here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd3VIgu0Tak , which most of us here have seen I'm sure), now you'll notice that JP's solo is longer and it has a different ending and no fadeout. I would have preferred this version on the album by quite a bit (the "proper version" as I call it)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 13, 2019, 04:37:10 AM
Interesting. That ending sounds kinda unfinished (lack of keys?) but maybe it could've been cool if they worked on it some more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on June 13, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on June 12, 2019, 02:33:23 PM
Here's another one for you: There is the version of TBOT on 'Youtube where we see MP recording it in the studio (this one here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd3VIgu0Tak , which most of us here have seen I'm sure), now you'll notice that JP's solo is longer and it has a different ending and no fadeout. I would have preferred this version on the album by quite a bit (the "proper version" as I call it)

I also prefer songs that end and don't fade out... unless the plan was to have an extended JP improv section at the end, which we'll probably never find out unfortunately.

I usually have the retro station on TV in the background and it's amazing how popular the fade-out used to be.  Great music and memories but, man, lots of fade-outs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 13, 2019, 02:44:46 PM
The guitar solo has been victim of many a fade-out. GnR's Nightrain comes to mind. Sigh...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 01:39:15 AM
I love fade-outs personally. I think it makes the song feel a lot bigger when it doesn't have a defined end point. Like anything it can be overused, but it's extremely effective when it's done well (see Take The Time and Learning To Live).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 14, 2019, 02:15:37 AM
On the other hand: can you name any single occourence where you thought "damn, I wish they would have faded out the song"? I'd daresay no.

I'm not against fade outs per se, but they have to have some kind of meaning, maybe a thematic one - end of the album, the way the lyrics go, anything than "uuh and I guess we just can't be bothered to write an ending for the song, which we have to do anyway to play it live".

Naive question, maybe I'm about to tell a very stupid thing: could it be that fadeouts were so popular to give the chance to the DJ to talk over it and save time? we all know how radios wanted short songs, how Queen had to fight to push for the 6 minutes long Bohemian Rhapsody etc, so maybe a fade out gives a chance to "save some time" since the song is ending anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 02:35:09 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 14, 2019, 02:15:37 AM
On the other hand: can you name any single occourence where you thought "damn, I wish they would have faded out the song"? I'd daresay no.

Many times actually, but a few that come to mind:
Black Sabbath - Under The Sun
DragonForce - Above the Winter Moonlight
The Mars Volta - Tetragrammation
Iron Maiden - The Red And The Black
Ayreon - The Day That The World Breaks Down
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 14, 2019, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 02:35:09 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 14, 2019, 02:15:37 AM
On the other hand: can you name any single occourence where you thought "damn, I wish they would have faded out the song"? I'd daresay no.

Many times actually, but a few that come to mind:
DragonForce - Above the Winter Moonlight

Duuuude yes. That would've worked so well with a fade out, just letting the strings do their thing as it gets quieter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 14, 2019, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 01:39:15 AM
I love fade-outs personally. I think it makes the song feel a lot bigger when it doesn't have a defined end point. Like anything it can be overused, but it's extremely effective when it's done well (see Take The Time and Learning To Live).

The ending of LTL from the early/mid-90s was spectacular and way better than fading out.  If they had done that on the album, the song would be even better than it already is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on June 14, 2019, 11:45:10 AM
Fade outs are fine as long as they aren't too quick. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 14, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 14, 2019, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 01:39:15 AM
I love fade-outs personally. I think it makes the song feel a lot bigger when it doesn't have a defined end point. Like anything it can be overused, but it's extremely effective when it's done well (see Take The Time and Learning To Live).

The ending of LTL from the early/mid-90s was spectacular and way better than fading out.  If they had done that on the album, the song would be even better than it already is.

What version of LTL are you referring to?  I think the studio version is as close to perfect as it can get.  Wouldn't change a thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 14, 2019, 03:00:37 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 14, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 14, 2019, 11:06:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 01:39:15 AM
I love fade-outs personally. I think it makes the song feel a lot bigger when it doesn't have a defined end point. Like anything it can be overused, but it's extremely effective when it's done well (see Take The Time and Learning To Live).

The ending of LTL from the early/mid-90s was spectacular and way better than fading out.  If they had done that on the album, the song would be even better than it already is.

What version of LTL are you referring to?  I think the studio version is as close to perfect as it can get.  Wouldn't change a thing.

I left out the word "live" in my prior post, so it's pretty much any live version from he I&W tour.  Specifically, the 3/4/93 NYC show that's available from Ytse Jam Records has a good example.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 14, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
lol "Learning to Live Live"

I'm listening to it now, the added solos were pretty cool, but the repetition of some of the previous parts felt a little confusing. I still prefer the fadeout, even if it is a little quick.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DreamerTV on June 15, 2019, 04:41:51 AM
While being their strong point in the past, their live rendition has weakened dramatically over the last 5 years (being their previous tour an exception, mostly because of I&W). Something that is more evident when put in a festival context where compared to others world class preformers they result as a mediocre live act - it didn’t use to be like that.
And it has nothing to with MP/MM, but more like with songs played with a click track, fake background singing, James, and surprisingly JP, conditions and questionable setlist choices (being this last one on par with 2015 summer tour on being the worst of it all).

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on June 16, 2019, 06:51:56 PM
Quote from: DreamerTV on June 15, 2019, 04:41:51 AM
While being their strong point in the past, their live rendition has weakened dramatically over the last 5 years (being their previous tour an exception, mostly because of I&W). Something that is more evident when put in a festival context where compared to others world class preformers they result as a mediocre live act - it didn’t use to be like that.
And it has nothing to with MP/MM, but more like with songs played with a click track, fake background singing, James, and surprisingly JP, conditions and questionable setlist choices (being this last one on par with 2015 summer tour on being the worst of it all).

I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 16, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
I totally agree. Piped in backing vocals is nothing more than Britney Theater. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 17, 2019, 04:06:32 AM
It just looks a bit weird because all the backings appear to come from JP. A lot of bands use prerecorded backing vox now, but it's hard to tell because you see multiple people on mics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DreamerTV on June 17, 2019, 04:39:46 AM
Quote from: Evai on June 17, 2019, 04:06:32 AM
It just looks a bit weird because all the backings appear to come from JP. A lot of bands use prerecorded backing vox now, but it's hard to tell because you see multiple people on mics.

Jp’s there, but i’d say it’s like 5%, or even less, of what you hear. Mostly are James’s vocal tracks from studio sessions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 17, 2019, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 16, 2019, 06:51:56 PM


I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 17, 2019, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)


Gee, that's swell!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:30:52 PM
:|
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 17, 2019, 05:27:05 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

When I think about volume swells, the first thing that comes to mind is the intro to Xanadu by Rush.  The second thing that comes to mind is Cathedral by Van Halen.  Alex Lifeson uses a volume pedal on Xanadu, whereas Meniketti used the volume knob in the linked video.  I believe (but am not sure) that EVH also uses the knob on Cathedral.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 17, 2019, 06:20:34 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 17, 2019, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

I'm a sucker for volume swells so I can't wait to hear this

Gee, that's swell!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 17, 2019, 06:55:28 PM
I never said that!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on June 17, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 17, 2019, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 16, 2019, 06:51:56 PM


I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 17, 2019, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 17, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 17, 2019, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 16, 2019, 06:51:56 PM


I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.

We all know he can sing the parts, and he actually does on every show, but what's the point of doing it if his mic has little to no volume at all? I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 18, 2019, 04:48:03 AM
Probably because it's fun? He likely hears himself perfectly clear in his monitor mix.

But honestly don't think it would work without the backing track. JP can stay on pitch, but without Portnoy I don't think it would sound right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on June 18, 2019, 05:34:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

That's the proper way to do volume swells, I approve!  :tup

But, boy-o-boy, Meniketti really needs to have JP teach him how to construct and phrase a lead break. Other than the volume swells, that was terrible! Especially after he sings for a while. I've never heard a pro hit so many sour notes.  :o
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 18, 2019, 06:21:24 AM
Well, it was nice knowing you, Podaar!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 18, 2019, 07:54:35 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 17, 2019, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 17, 2019, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 17, 2019, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Herrick on June 16, 2019, 06:51:56 PM


I don't understand why they do what they do with the backing vocals. I guess it looks cooler to have someone look like they're singing it live but it's not much better than lip syncing. From what I've heard on this forum, Petrucci's voice is in there somewhere but it's low in the mix? It would seem more "honest" if they just played the tape or whatever without the miming.

It is not miming. I have feel like this has been covered like 459 times already, but JP is not miming or lip synching.  He is almost always singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal, which is much higher in the mix, but make no mistake about it: JP is singing.

Agreed. Those words don't accurately describe what he's doing. But why is he singing if he's barely heard? It's a bit more legit than straight up lip syncing...but not by much.

We all know he can sing the parts, and he actually does on every show, but what's the point of doing it if his mic has little to no volume at all? I just don't get it.

Because it is a better look visually to have one of the band members at the mic singing when a backup vocal is being heard, and I would submit that 99% of fans either don't know or don't care that JP is barely audible underneath the pre-recorded backing track, but this is DTF WHERE WE NITPICK. ;)  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 18, 2019, 09:11:54 AM
I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 18, 2019, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: Podaar on June 18, 2019, 05:34:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 17, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
Controversial opinion:  I love the volume swells JP does in the middle section in TCOT.  HOWEVER, Dave Meniketti is the undisputed world champion of volume swells, as illustrated here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNauw3AuwTA&t=2m37s  (watch up to the 3:12 mark)

That's the proper way to do volume swells, I approve!  :tup

:tup

Quote from: Podaar on June 18, 2019, 05:34:01 AM
But, boy-o-boy, Meniketti really needs to have JP teach him how to construct and phrase a lead break. Other than the volume swells, that was terrible! Especially after he sings for a while. I've never heard a pro hit so many sour notes.  :o

:bosk1:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 18, 2019, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 18, 2019, 09:11:54 AM
I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.

I don't get it at all, frankly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

So just like with Rush, I'm perfectly fine with what DT is doing.  I don't think they're trying to fool anyone.  I think we all know that JP doesn't in fact sound exactly like James.  If you listen really hard for it, you can hear JP's voice too, especially if you're up close.  Now, I personally would be fine with him not singing at all and them just using a backing track, but I'm also fine with the way they're doing it now. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 18, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
I was searching for videos from this European leg and found this...

https://youtu.be/bchalGgfsx8

I can hear JP pretty well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 18, 2019, 11:22:52 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 18, 2019, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 18, 2019, 09:11:54 AM
I totally get that and it makes sense.  I actually wish JP's mic was turned up more because he does have a good voice.

I don't get it at all, frankly.

That's ok Tim.  I still love you.  :-*  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 18, 2019, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on June 18, 2019, 01:27:15 PM
I actually really enjoy MP doing backing vocals, both live and on album.  I have no care for him singing any leads, but thought he had a good voice for complementing the singer.  Sort of like Michael Anthony on Van Halen (although I think this guy is the ultimate backing vocalist so MP isn't on that level) who just adds a different and good backing voice to the music, but I wouldn't want him singing the songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 18, 2019, 01:38:31 PM
Didn't Mike say something, back in the days, along the lines of "Since we [MP and JP] are gonna sing backup vocals live anyway, it's important to have our voices on the record, otherwise live we'll just sound as a weaker version of James"? I can see his reasoning... for example if in The Ministry of Lost Souls Petrucci wouldn't sing those two single lines, live it would have sound weird and inferior.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 18, 2019, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).

I think we just have totally different preferences on this sort of thing.  For me, if a band has other guys who are really good singers (and Brian May was pretty good), then that's one thing.  But if the band doesn't, then I just prefer them to let their singer handle it.  And I don't think that's even a draw back - for example I don't think Rush would have been "even better" if only they'd had multiple voices on the album.  I don't have an interest in another voice with Rush, and don't with DT either - especially after having heard the alternative.  And it doesn't at all matter to me if the vocals could have been done in one take or not.  Redemption had a few songs where Ray Alder was singing two or maybe 3 melodies at the same time at the end of the song, and it sounded fantastic.  Of course it couldn't have been done in one take, but I'm glad they didn't let that stop them from doing it. 

For Black Clouds - I actually like that album quite a bit, but I'd prefer it with just James handling the vocals.

For the live show... I guess I'm in between.  I don't have a hard line "everything must be live" stance.  Especially when it comes to backing vocals.  If the guys in the band aren't good singers (and I realize this is a matter of taste), I'm totally fine with the backing vocals being brought in.  On the other hand, I'm not cool with bands not having a bass player and using backing tracks for that live.  Why is it different?  I dunno, it just is.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 01:48:05 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on June 18, 2019, 01:27:15 PM
I actually really enjoy MP doing backing vocals, both live and on album.  I have no care for him singing any leads, but thought he had a good voice for complementing the singer.  Sort of like Michael Anthony on Van Halen (although I think this guy is the ultimate backing vocalist so MP isn't on that level) who just adds a different and good backing voice to the music, but I wouldn't want him singing the songs.

I will say that I think MP and JP both got better with backing vocals as time went on, which is definitely a plus.  But there were still times where (for me) it just didn't sound good, and plenty of times where MP's backing vocals were too loud in the mix.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on June 18, 2019, 01:49:22 PM
Yea, I'm going off recent memory regarding MP.  Even just in TWD recently he sounded great doing the backing vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 18, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 18, 2019, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Lethean on June 18, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
Here's the thing, for me at least.  It sounds better now.  So at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  JP isn't a great singer - he can be decent, but that's about as far as it goes.  MP wasn't a great singer either.  In another thread we talked about James sounding good at a particular show in person, but not so good on recorded video from the same show.  For me, the backing vocals (sometimes MP alone, sometimes both of them) made me cringe at the actual show.  It occasionally took away from what was otherwise an amazing performance. 

Personally, I do not think it sounds better now at all.

For one thing, I think that a live performance should, to the greatest extent possible, be LIVE. From that perspective, it sounded much better to me when all the backing vocals were being provided, *live on stage* by Mike and John, because I like to hear a live performance where it really does sounds like five people getting up and giving a performance, without any sort of assistance being piped in.

Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound). And I think in most cases, where you even have a semi-competent backup singer, it sounds nicer to have multiple voices harmonizing or blending together than to have the same voice layered three times over. I think it's very cool when even bands with a very strong lead singer make use of the voices of other band members on the studio recording—e.g., Yes or Queen.

The liberal use of Mike and John as backup singers is one of the best things about the unfairly-maligned Black Clouds & Silver Linings. I try to imagine the chorus of A Rite of Passage or A Nightmare to Remember with just three Jameses instead of James, Mike and John, and I just think it would sound, so, so inferior to the version we got—even though James is a far better singer than either of the others. By a similar token, I listen to something like Build Me Up, Break Me Down or The Bigger Picture and imagine how much better those choruses would sound if someone else was singing under James (in the case of BMU,BMD) or doing the secondary part (in the case of TBP).
Couldn't agree with you more 425 - beautiful post! Yes, there are some things that realistically cannot be reproduced live because they were a studio creation, but backing vocals are not one of them when you have very competent musicians that can do them, as has always been evident from FII onward. Even listening to TtT live, I'd rather have MP and JP doing the backing vocals than backing tapes of JL's multi-tracked vocals from the original sessions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on June 18, 2019, 11:36:18 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 18, 2019, 01:22:22 PM
Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound).

Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.

I'm perfectly fine with any band using backing tracks for portions of their music and then I look at these rave DJs with their headsets on nodding their heads as they press PLAY and the audience goes crazy cuz they're listening to the CD track and nothing is "live" and that's weaksauce.

*Yes, I know there's more to DJing than that, but that's certainly not what it looks like.  This SNL skit is exactly what it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCawU6BE8P8
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 19, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: PetFish on June 18, 2019, 11:36:18 PM
Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.
I can't speak for 425, but for me, that logic DOES apply to guitarists. But to be honest (and maybe it's because it's late here and I should be in bed), I'm having a hard time trying to think of songs where JP plays lead and rhythm in the studio. That's one of the things I love about DT - the lack of superficial overdubbing that they couldn't replicate live. Of course, JP will multi-track his guitars, but that's playing the same parts to thicken up the sound, which I wouldn't say applies here. Can you cite some examples of where he does separate rhythm and lead guitars at the same time?

On a separate note - loved that SNL DJ clip! That's pretty spot on about (at least) people's perception of what DJs do at their shows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 19, 2019, 02:37:20 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 19, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
. Can you cite some examples of where he does separate rhythm and lead guitars at the same time?


Every song on DT12 and ADToE has rhythm guitar underneath the solos.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on June 19, 2019, 03:10:53 AM
Also on TOT there's a lot of leads and rhythm guitars at the same time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 19, 2019, 07:11:12 AM
Also, the intro to The Count of Tuscany has that electric lead played over the acoustic that kicks off the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on June 19, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 19, 2019, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on June 19, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.

Which is why i love D/T. Due to him not playing rhythm, it allows the bass sound to sound more clearer. Also, making the drums and bass finally be the groove of the solo
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on June 19, 2019, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 19, 2019, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on June 19, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
And also the majority of the band's catalog... Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.

That's the reason why he's been talking about doing things different on D/T where he doesn't play rhythm behind guitar solos. Because it's different than his typical approach.

Which is why i love D/T. Due to him not playing rhythm, it allows the bass sound to sound more clearer. Also, making the drums and bass finally be the groove of the solo

I like this approach on albums that only have one guitar player because when I hear a live version, it doesn't sound like something's missing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 19, 2019, 12:13:07 PM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on June 19, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
And also the majority of the band's catalog...
I stand corrected. I went ahead and checked out Jammit's guitar stems for Awake and was surprised to see that there was as much overdubbing as there was. That got me to thinking "why doesn't it bother me the same way the backing vocals do?" And I think the answer is that a lot of what is overdubbed is more textural than anything, and is buried in the mix so that I never really noticed it. I would also imagine that at least in some cases, JR may cover some of the overdubbing live on his keys so that those parts are covered. (It should be noted that I think it was a real travesty that JR didn't play the second guitar part on the intro to TCoT live, and that JP did it to a backing track - UGH!) So I would guess the reason why these overdubbed guitars (of which I wasn't really even aware of most of them) don't bother me the way the backing vocals do is because they are nowhere near as prominent in the mix as the backing vocals are.
 
 
Quote from: mikeyd23 on June 19, 2019, 08:02:13 AM
Most of the time when JP plays a solo on record, there is rhythm guitar underneath.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Perhaps Awake is an anomaly, but I only noticed Lie and Scarred as being songs that had JP playing rhythm underneath the solos. If that's any indicator of the rest of the catalog, that's not "most of the time".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
Quote from: PetFish on June 18, 2019, 11:36:18 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 18, 2019, 01:22:22 PM
Additionally, I do not even think it typically sounds good on studio record when there are a ton of secondary vocal parts that are also done by the lead singer. It takes me out of the moment to realize that not only was the song not performed in a single take (which isn't such a big deal; few studio recordings are), but that it in a very obvious way could not have been so performed (more obvious than, say, an additional guitar track filling out the sound).

Then why doesn't this logic ever apply to guitarists?

JP plays rhythm and lead in-studio, but can't do them both live.  Yes, he doesn't have the backing track playing while he leads, but if you apply this statement where you're taken out of the moment knowing it wasn't done "live" then why do guitarists get a pass?  You seem to be ok with additional guitar tracks but not additional vocal tracks.

I would generally prefer that guitarists not do this, but it does not bother me as much for guitarists as it does for singers. Why? I think there is a perfectly logical reason. A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not. One could easily imagine there simply being an additional guitarist playing the additional part. But if I hear James LaBrie singing one part and James LaBrie singing another part over him, the impossibility of that is staring me right in the face, because there is not another person whose voice sounds that way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on June 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

Get 100 of the all-time greats to play "Jingle Bells" note-for-note but with their setup and each one will be immediately identifiable, just as 100 singers singing it will also be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 19, 2019, 11:47:06 PM
Maybe for the die hard fan or musical student's discernible ear, but for everyone else. I think a vocalist's voice is going to be much more readily identifiable than a guitarist's tone. I think to say "every guitar player is immediately identifiable" (paraphrase) is not accurate to most casual music fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 20, 2019, 08:48:40 AM
Quote from: PetFish on June 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

I have a hard time not seeing this response as disingenuous, to be honest. I have a hard time imagining how someone could look at the uniqueness of the human voice and the distinctness of a particular guitar set-up and say "Yes, these are exactly the same thing."

Let me explain this again. When there is rhythm guitar under a solo, played by the same guitarist, that does not immediately stick out as impossible, because one could easily imagine an additional guitarist, using the same set-up, playing that rhythm part. This is not at all the same thing as hearing the same person sing two different things at the same time, which is outright impossible on its face, and blatantly so.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 20, 2019, 09:15:38 AM
Quote from: 425 on June 20, 2019, 08:48:40 AM
Quote from: PetFish on June 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

I have a hard time not seeing this response as disingenuous, to be honest. I have a hard time imagining how someone could look at the uniqueness of the human voice and the distinctness of a particular guitar set-up and say "Yes, these are exactly the same thing."

Let me explain this again. When there is rhythm guitar under a solo, played by the same guitarist, that does not immediately stick out as impossible, because one could easily imagine an additional guitarist, using the same set-up, playing that rhythm part. This is not at all the same thing as hearing the same person sing two different things at the same time, which is outright impossible on its face, and blatantly so.

Well, it's the same with Guitar. It's the same person and tone.

Also, Tone is a very big part of music. It's why guitarists can mimic a human voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 20, 2019, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 19, 2019, 11:47:06 PM
Maybe for the die hard fan or musical student's discernible ear, but for everyone else. I think a vocalist's voice is going to be much more readily identifiable than a guitarist's tone. I think to say "every guitar player is immediately identifiable" (paraphrase) is not accurate to most casual music fans.

This is true. I guess I can identify Brian May's guitar, but I'm not sure I could even recognize the guitarists of my favorite bands if they play something outside of their bands. I could probably identify Petrucci's slow and melodic soloing, but I guess that if you let me hear a random piece of music with a very Iron Maiden-ish vibe, I couldn't tell if it's a random musician influenced by the band, or actually Dave Murray (or one of the other two).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on June 20, 2019, 10:09:23 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 19, 2019, 11:47:06 PM
Maybe for the die hard fan or musical student's discernible ear, but for everyone else. I think a vocalist's voice is going to be much more readily identifiable than a guitarist's tone. I think to say "every guitar player is immediately identifiable" (paraphrase) is not accurate to most casual music fans.

+1

Even as someone who has a degree in music... this is totally true.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on June 20, 2019, 10:13:40 AM
I get both sides of the guitar thing - some people can pick out different players and others can't, or only can for some.

But, I don't see why this whole thing should matter.  It's true that one person can't, in real time, sing lead and backing vocals at the same time.  But so what?  A guitar player can't either, and even if you can't tell one player from another, you still know for a fact that Petrucci is the only one playing.  Yeah... they could have gotten someone else, but they didn't.  DT could have found someone like Journey did who sounds just like JLB.  But in both situations, you have the credits and interviews and such, so you know that they put down on record what they can't actually do in real time.  I don't see why that matters for either a singer or a guitar player and if it sounds great, which it usually does, I say go for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: 425 on June 20, 2019, 08:48:40 AM
Quote from: PetFish on June 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

I have a hard time not seeing this response as disingenuous, to be honest. I have a hard time imagining how someone could look at the uniqueness of the human voice and the distinctness of a particular guitar set-up and say "Yes, these are exactly the same thing."

I wouldn't go so far as to say disingenuous, but I also disagree that "[e]very great guitar player is directly identifiable by [his/her] sound (tone)."  For starters, that statement assumes that every great guitar player has a single, distinctive "sound (tone)," which simply isn't true.  I also agree that it matters greatly who the listener is.  I'm a musician and reasonably knowledgeable music fan, but I can rarely tell the difference between, e.g., Adrian Smith and Dave Murray or Glenn Tipton and K.K. Downing.  Sometimes I can figure it out because of playing style, but I certainly cannot do it solely because of "sound (tone)."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 20, 2019, 10:58:57 AM
The difference, for me, is between “this is possible to be live” and “this is not.” It is possible to create a second guitar set-up, identical to the first, and have someone play the rhythm part on that set-up. It is not possible for one person to sing two parts on the same time. That is why it takes me out of it somewhat when, say, you have “Digging up a goldmine (digging up a goldmine)” or “Shed your light on me (shed your light on me)” in a way that it doesn’t to simply have an extra rhythm part during a solo. If those backing parts were sung by JP, that would bring the album closer to a live sound and further away from an processed one, which, to me, sounds a lot better. I think even other things being equal the “shed your light on me” bit would sound better with a singer whose style is substantively different from James’s. And I say all this with TBP being in my top 10.

I’m not saying it has to sound better to everyone, but I am saying that there is gulf of difference between literally the same person’s voice and the tone of a guitar, which can be replicated simply by duplicating the set-up and playing in a similar style, so it therefore doesn’t stand the test of logic to jump down my throat with a half dozen emojis for wanting John to sing backup on the albums while not caring so much if he plays rhythm under a solo.

I will acknowledge that “disingenuous” may have been going a bit far. I was responding to what I perceived as an aggressive response with my own aggression, but I don’t think I really have enough information to know whether or not PetFish was being disingenuous, so I apologize for implying that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 20, 2019, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: 425 on June 20, 2019, 10:58:57 AM
The difference, for me, is between “this is possible to be live” and “this is not.” It is possible to create a second guitar set-up, identical to the first, and have someone play the rhythm part on that set-up. It is not possible for one person to sing two parts on the same time. That is why it takes me out of it somewhat when, say, you have “Digging up a goldmine (digging up a goldmine)” or “Shed your light on me (shed your light on me)” in a way that it doesn’t to simply have an extra rhythm part during a solo.

I don't fully agree with you, but I get what you are saying.  But it's interesting that, for me, it was often the other way around.  With a lot of the '80s guitar rock I grew up listening to, it was very common to have gang vocals for the backups, and those would often very discernably include the lead singer.  That never bothered me for some reason.  But what would drive me nuts is when I would hear single guitar bands like Van Halen or Dokken where there was CLEARLY a second (or third) guitar part, knowing that it was only one guitarist.  But I eventually got over that, and it rarely bothers me anymore.  It still does at times with DT, where it is blatantly obvious, like Scotty's example of TCOT.  But for the most part, it often doesn't even register with me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 20, 2019, 11:38:46 AM
About the whole idea of extra lead singer vocals layered in a live performance as well as with guitars...  Yes, it's true that the shows aren't purely live, but I am 55 and I saw many great rock concerts as a young teenager. (Rush being the first :eek) The concerts are just better now.  Technology and it's adding a little bit of "fakeness" to a live show, is Waaay better than how they used to sound.
I think it is kinda fun to watch the musicians and try to decipher what they are actually doing  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 20, 2019, 11:44:52 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 20, 2019, 11:38:46 AM
About the whole idea of extra lead singer vocals layered in a live performance as well as with guitars...  Yes, it's true that the shows aren't purely live, but I am 55 and I saw many great rock concerts as a young teenager. (Rush being the first :eek) The concerts are just better now.  Technology and it's adding a little bit of "fakeness" to a live show, is Waaay better than how they used to sound.
I think it is kinda fun to watch the musicians and try to decipher what they are actually doing  :)

Totally.  Kind of a hybrid situation that is fun to watch is when the musicians ARE actually playing everything, but using technology to replicate parts at the same time, like playing a main riff through once, having a looper then repeat it, playing another riff, and having the looper add that, and then playing leads over the loops.  The Travis Larson Band does that a lot, for example.  If you don't know what I am talking about, here is a song that is ONLY Jennifer Young on bass alone for the entire song, but she lays down a couple of different parts in the beginning that get looped, and then adds in other stuff:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlZvX5b9HHI
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on June 20, 2019, 02:51:44 PM
I'm not being "disingenuous", yes, I had to look it up to make sure I knew what this means, because it's true.  After vocals, the next most-unique instrument is the guitar, and it's not very far back at all, it's pretty much riding the bumper of the vocals.

I also said "great" guitar players (ie. JP, Vai, Gilbert, Satch, Bettencourt, etc) and not Jonny Powerchord since the great players strive for the ultimate tone and in doing so establish what "they" sound like over any other players out there.

I'm sure it's obvious for guitar players out there, just like drummers can identify drummers by their sound/style, but I can't since I'm not a drummer and don't know the nuances like I do with guitar.  It's also why on TV (ie. The Voice) nobody cares about the band at all (which is a travesty), only the vocals, since everyone has a voice and can relate, but not everyone plays an instrument... which is why, for many new listeners to DT, they can usually decide right away if they want to hear more based solely on LaBrie's vocals, and why so many people say "I'm sure it's great, but I can't get past the vocals."

Anyway, off-track a little, but in the end being nitpicky over some pre-recorded background vocals or how the same singer shouldn't sing multiple parts in-studio, seems silly to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on June 20, 2019, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 20, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Quote from: 425 on June 20, 2019, 08:48:40 AM
Quote from: PetFish on June 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM
Quote from: 425 on June 19, 2019, 04:07:01 PM
A singer’s voice is distinct, a guitar sound is not.

:facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:  :facepalm:

Every great guitar player is directly identifiable by their sound (tone).  It's just as unique and distinct as a singer's voice.  You replace JL or JP and the band will certainly sound radically different.  Vocals and guitar are the most difficult roles to interchange.

I have a hard time not seeing this response as disingenuous, to be honest. I have a hard time imagining how someone could look at the uniqueness of the human voice and the distinctness of a particular guitar set-up and say "Yes, these are exactly the same thing."

I wouldn't go so far as to say disingenuous, but I also disagree that "[e]very great guitar player is directly identifiable by [his/her] sound (tone)."  For starters, that statement assumes that every great guitar player has a single, distinctive "sound (tone)," which simply isn't true.  I also agree that it matters greatly who the listener is.  I'm a musician and reasonably knowledgeable music fan, but I can rarely tell the difference between, e.g., Adrian Smith and Dave Murray or Glenn Tipton and K.K. Downing.  Sometimes I can figure it out because of playing style, but I certainly cannot do it solely because of "sound (tone)."

Playing style also affects tone methinks. So if you can tell between Downing & Tipton by their style then I'd say that counts as being able to identify them by their tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 20, 2019, 05:40:18 PM
I think a better way to say it is, "A singer's voice is more distinct that a guitar player's sound, generally speaking," because most guitarists definitely have a distinct sound. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on June 20, 2019, 06:40:01 PM
And: Major elements of a guitar player's sound can be closely approximated by another guitar player when it comes to rhythm parts under a solo, while a singer's voice generally cannot be closely approximated by another singer.

And look, I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to care about or not. I'm saying, to me, it sounds markedly worse to have the lead singer doing his own backup vocals. This is the controversial opinion thread, and that is my controversial opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
I'd also like to add that guitar tones are less distinct because they're easier to imitate. If you know all of your favourite guitarist's EQ settings, pedals, guitar model, amplifier brand, etc., it's not that hard to replicate a guitar sound to a near-perfect degree. Whereas no matter how much you know about your favourite singer, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to imitate them to that extent because the shape of vocal cords is largely determined by involuntary genetics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SjundeInseglet on June 21, 2019, 06:55:18 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
I'd also like to add that guitar tones are less distinct because they're easier to imitate. If you know all of your favourite guitarist's EQ settings, pedals, guitar model, amplifier brand, etc., it's not that hard to replicate a guitar sound to a near-perfect degree. Whereas no matter how much you know about your favourite singer, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to imitate them to that extent because the shape of vocal cords is largely determined by involuntary genetics.

That may very well be true but you'll never be able to duplicate all the nuances in their playing that give them an unique "voice" such as the phrasing, the way they bend notes, the vibrato,...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: SjundeInseglet on June 21, 2019, 06:55:18 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
I'd also like to add that guitar tones are less distinct because they're easier to imitate. If you know all of your favourite guitarist's EQ settings, pedals, guitar model, amplifier brand, etc., it's not that hard to replicate a guitar sound to a near-perfect degree. Whereas no matter how much you know about your favourite singer, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to imitate them to that extent because the shape of vocal cords is largely determined by involuntary genetics.

That may very well be true but you'll never be able to duplicate all the nuances in their playing that give them an unique "voice" such as the phrasing, the way they bend notes, the vibrato,...

Sure you'll never get it perfectly, but it'd still be significantly easier than accurately replicating someone else's singing voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on June 21, 2019, 02:09:59 PM

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
I'd also like to add that guitar tones are less distinct because they're easier to imitate. If you know all of your favourite guitarist's EQ settings, pedals, guitar model, amplifier brand, etc., it's not that hard to replicate a guitar sound to a near-perfect degree. Whereas no matter how much you know about your favourite singer, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to imitate them to that extent because the shape of vocal cords is largely determined by involuntary genetics.

Pfft, no-one has ever got close to replicating Eruption the way it sounds on record. But Ralph Saenz can do a flawless DLR impression
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 22, 2019, 02:06:49 PM
Quote from: Evai on June 21, 2019, 02:09:59 PM

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2019, 03:09:12 AM
I'd also like to add that guitar tones are less distinct because they're easier to imitate. If you know all of your favourite guitarist's EQ settings, pedals, guitar model, amplifier brand, etc., it's not that hard to replicate a guitar sound to a near-perfect degree. Whereas no matter how much you know about your favourite singer, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to imitate them to that extent because the shape of vocal cords is largely determined by involuntary genetics.

Pfft, no-one has ever got close to replicating Eruption the way it sounds on record. But Ralph Saenz can do a flawless DLR impression

To be fair, not even Eddie Van Halen has come close to replicating Eruption the way it sounds on the record.

I find this whole debate a bit silly. Obviously human voices are more distinct than guitar tones, and this is coming from a guitar player who can usually identify a guitarist within a few notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 01, 2019, 03:36:27 PM
-Beneath The Surface

-Very natural sounding song, acoustic guitars, orchestral instruments

-Heartfelt lyrics

-Toybox Keytar solo bloopidy bloop well that just happened
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on July 01, 2019, 04:11:53 PM
Quote from: Evai on July 01, 2019, 03:36:27 PM
-Beneath The Surface

-Very natural sounding song, acoustic guitars, orchestral instruments

-Heartfelt lyrics

-Toybox Keytar solo bloopidy bloop well that just happened

 :rollin

I really love that solo and the song in general. But nicely put.  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 02, 2019, 09:37:49 AM
JR's solo in BTS is what turns me off about the song (what a goofy sounding patch) besides the fact that it's just a flatout sad song.  The only thing memorable about it is JP's acoustic work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 02, 2019, 10:11:26 AM
That is an awesome solo you guys! That could be my favorite Jordan Rudess moment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 02, 2019, 12:07:31 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 02, 2019, 10:11:26 AM
That is an awesome solo you guys!

Agree, and I dig the patch.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 02, 2019, 02:32:34 PM
I don't actually have any problems with it, just a funny observation while I was listening the other day  :lol  A Rite Of Passage, on the other hand... bloopidy WHAT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 02, 2019, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: Evai on July 02, 2019, 02:32:34 PM
A Rite Of Passage, on the other hand... bloopidy WHAT

No kidding. If BtS is my favorite Jordan moment, ARoP is probably my least favorite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 02, 2019, 04:24:51 PM
The Solitary Shell patch would've worked much better in the BTS solo.  There are some similarities, but the distinct differences are overwhelmingly in SS' favor.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on July 03, 2019, 02:05:24 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 02, 2019, 10:11:26 AM
That is an awesome solo you guys! That could be my favorite Jordan Rudess moment.

Not my favorite Rudess moment but that is indeed an awesome solo. Love the patch he uses and the solo itself is great.

Also agree that the AROP synth solo is... oof.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on July 03, 2019, 06:54:38 PM
Controversial opinion: the AROP keyboard solo isn't that bad. By comparison, the first keyboard solo in Home is far worse, though it certainly doesn't ruin the song for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on July 04, 2019, 12:18:24 AM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.

It became apparent to me during their last visit to Greece, where they hadn't played since 2011. One would hope and expect a bigger set (even though it was a forced "festival" date), or at least 1-2 more songs being thrown in just for satisfying people who have waited for so long (or are new fans).
But, the setlist was completely unchanged from the rest of the tour.

I can see the band's point of view, but still feel like it's become much more of a job, or necessary evil if i might say for them to tour, instead of using it as an opportunity to interact with the different audiences and grow even bigger.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 04, 2019, 11:07:45 AM
That's controversial? If so, it shouldn't be.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 04, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
Yeah we've heard that a million times :p

I don't like when artists reveal how their lyrics came about. Ministry Of Lost Souls was really interesting to me, until JP revealed it's a story he made up about a girl drowning. It's a sad song so I'd like to imagine there's some deeper meaning/real life thing behind it, like other similar songs. I guess that's my fault for watching 'making of' videos though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 04, 2019, 11:59:28 AM
Just imagine it the way you like it, songs aren't the sole and exclusive emotional propriety of the songwriter.

Back in the day when I was active on James' board, I found out that a solo song of his, Stranger, that moved me deeply, and that I thought was about the deep and profound attraction towards another person regardless of what other people might think (people that might not get the actual brilliancy of said person) was actually "just" a song about addiction, so I posted that I was a bit let down by this simpler meaning.

James, through the webmaster, actually replied to me, saying that if I connected to that song so deeply, I could as well continue to imagine it the way I wanted it to be. Just do the same for Ministry.

Say that you meet Petrucci at a meet n' greet and you tell him "I really like this song, for me it has a deep meaning", I hardly doubt he would ever say to you "Lol what forget about that, it's about a girl drowning, end of the story".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 04, 2019, 12:06:54 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on July 04, 2019, 11:59:28 AM


Say that you meet Petrucci at a meet n' greet and you tell him "I really like this song, for me it has a deep meaning", I hardly doubt he would ever say to you "Lol what forget about that, it's about a girl drowning, end of the story".

I think he would actually appreciate that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 04, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on July 04, 2019, 12:18:24 AM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.

Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 04, 2019, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 04, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on July 04, 2019, 12:18:24 AM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.

Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.

I was going to jump in on this. Wouldn't say they are annoying, but definitely overhyped. I get why people who have lots of concert cash to blow on the same band who live in an area where they will hit multiple stops nearby would appreciate them. But I can't believe that is a large percentage of fans. I only ever care what a band plays when I go see them, not what they play (or don't play) the rest of the tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 04, 2019, 06:15:36 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 04, 2019, 12:56:54 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 04, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: nikatapi on July 04, 2019, 12:18:24 AM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.
Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.
I was going to jump in on this. Wouldn't say they are annoying, but definitely overhyped. I get why people who have lots of concert cash to blow on the same band who live in an area where they will hit multiple stops nearby would appreciate them. But I can't believe that is a large percentage of fans. I only ever care what a band plays when I go see them, not what they play (or don't play) the rest of the tour.
There may not be a "large" percentage of fans, but I know that I'm far from the only one who would go to multiple shows on each tour, in large part to be able to enjoy the variety of songs that was rotated in and out of the setlist - nevermind that you didn't always know what the next song they were gonna play was, and even if the setlists were similar, the fact that it felt like anything could happen (which is non-existent now). And of course, I was always interested in what was played at the other shows that I didn't see as well - much the same way some diehard sports people are interested in various statistics of various teams or players, even if they don't have season tickets. As a result of the now static setlists, I and several others I know now just go to see the band once per tour. Will that break the bank for the band? No. But it's one of several things that made DT "especially special" while MP was in the band. DT may still be my favorite band, but they no longer stand out the way they used to.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on July 04, 2019, 09:50:17 PM
I haven't been to many concerts but I can respect a band (or just Portnoy?) who thinks their discography is strong enough to play any song live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 05, 2019, 01:04:46 AM
Quote from: Herrick on July 04, 2019, 09:50:17 PM
I haven't been to many concerts but I can respect a band (or just Portnoy?) who thinks their discography is strong enough to play any song live.

Well, save 2-3 songs here and there, it actually is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 05, 2019, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 04, 2019, 06:15:36 PM
And of course, I was always interested in what was played at the other shows that I didn't see as well...

Huh, that never would have occurred to me to even consider. However, appreciate that you do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 12:01:01 PM
For me, being as I can't go to many DT shows in one tour as it would require me to travel a lot, I'll take what I can get. I want to see many songs from as many albums as possible, which is why when I finally got to go to DT headlining shows it's when they went full on Album tours. First, was obvious as I enjoy The Astonishing and so glad I went to two shows. 2nd was the I&W&B tour, glad I also went to two shows and so happy our local headlining show included DLPM and TLF. Now D/T has SFAM, good but damn am I tired of Full Album tours.

I'll gladly take another A/B/C setlist with whatever they choose from among their many albums. I feel though their 2nd U.S Leg will take place when I can't attend it and it'll be a varied set.

The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well. No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on July 05, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 12:01:01 PM

The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well. No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.

He definitely did have some kind of archive as to what was played. I’ve argued this a lot on this site but DT has certainly done a tremendous job with changing their set up from tour to tour without MP. They’ve also given us three unplayed songs from the MP-era including two of the biggest rarities in Space Dye Vest and Don’t Look Past Me that even MP overlooked. There’s no reason why they should not play the same set night after night when a substantial portion of shoes are only attended in one city. It’s not the bands fault if their fans obsessively check setlist.fm for different songs (which is something I do for every band I like but I realize I’m the one with the issue not the band).

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 12:01:01 PM
The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well.
Not in the slightest, unless it was something they spontaneously broke into during the show, like some of the teasers tacked on at the end of some songs. Otherwise, MP had those setlists planned out probably at least a week in advance if not more. This was done at least in part so that everyone who needed to could be prepared - in particular JR with his sound patches and the video/lighting guys.
 
 
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 12:01:01 PM
No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.
OCD has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 05, 2019, 05:45:02 PM
To add somthing else to this discussion, just wanted to say I've seen a lot of "no MP, no rotating setlists" through the years and quite a few people complain about this (o just mention it as something they dislike), but I don't see anyone complaining about the other dozen bands MP plays/has played with the last 10-ish years that don't have rotating setlists. Literally no other MP band has had rotating setlists the way he did it with DT and yet no one seems to think this is a big deal. Then, why it has to be with DT? Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on July 05, 2019, 08:54:00 PM
There is also a downside to rotating setlists. If I can only go to one show and I see the night before got a better (to me) setlist I'm going to be bummed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on July 05, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
Otherwise, MP had those setlists planned out probably at least a week in advance if not more.
Scott, may I ask: do you know how Mike kept track of everything?

For example: did he use MS Excel/MS Access files? Did he store printed set-lists in a box or whatever?

Maybe he contacted you from time to time asking for opinions/information?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 10:35:49 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 05, 2019, 05:45:02 PM
To add somthing else to this discussion, just wanted to say I've seen a lot of "no MP, no rotating setlists" through the years and quite a few people complain about this (o just mention it as something they dislike), but I don't see anyone complaining about the other dozen bands MP plays/has played with the last 10-ish years that don't have rotating setlists. Literally no other MP band has had rotating setlists the way he did it with DT and yet no one seems to think this is a big deal. Then, why it has to be with DT? Just my two cents.
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, there's 2 reasons:
1) none of his other bands appeal to me in the same way that DT does so that I want to catch multiple shows and keep track of every setlist.
2) it is a well known fact that he isn't calling the shots in any of these other bands like he did in DT, with SoA being the exception. To be honest, I was a bit surprised I didn't see rotating setlists for SoA's shows in 2018, but I chalk that up to it being their first tour. If this continues to be the case on subsequent tours, it will definitely be a disappointment.
 
 
Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on July 05, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
Scott, may I ask: do you know how Mike kept track of everything?

For example: did he use MS Excel/MS Access files? Did he store printed set-lists in a box or whatever?

Maybe he contacted you from time to time asking for opinions/information?
For Touring Into Infinity, I don't know, altho I doubt it was digital - it was probably just photocopies of the setlists and/or notes he kept in a diary. For that tour, he gave me a bunch of photocopies in one format or the other. For later tours (really beginning with World Tourbulence, since Metropolis 2000 was pretty static), I'm pretty sure he simply referenced the tourography, since it was up and running by that time.

But no, he never asked for my opinion on setlists - he had a good handle on putting together setlists without needing my help!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 06, 2019, 12:49:51 AM
I remember him saying he kept a "spreadsheet."  But I don't know whether he meant a literal spreadsheet, ala Excel, or if he was just using that term for some other system he had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM
What MP had said was that he wanted to make sure they didn't play the same songs every time time through a town., so a fan would get different songs each time they saw them.

To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on July 06, 2019, 05:51:57 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM


To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.

Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour’s setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 06, 2019, 02:48:06 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P

You east coast peeps are spoiled with that honestly. Getting to travel just an hours worth away. While we on the west have to go twice that just for the nearest city
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Sebastián Pratesi on July 06, 2019, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 10:35:49 PM
For Touring Into Infinity, I don't know, altho I doubt it was digital - it was probably just photocopies of the setlists and/or notes he kept in a diary. For that tour, he gave me a bunch of photocopies in one format or the other. For later tours (really beginning with World Tourbulence, since Metropolis 2000 was pretty static), I'm pretty sure he simply referenced the tourography, since it was up and running by that time.

But no, he never asked for my opinion on setlists - he had a good handle on putting together setlists without needing my help!  :lol
Quote from: bosk1 on July 06, 2019, 12:49:51 AM
I remember him saying he kept a "spreadsheet."  But I don't know whether he meant a literal spreadsheet, ala Excel, or if he was just using that term for some other system he had.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 03:15:37 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 06, 2019, 02:48:06 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 11:23:17 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P
You east coast peeps are spoiled with that honestly. Getting to travel just an hours worth away. While we on the west have to go twice that just for the nearest city
Not sure if you're directing that at me, but for the record, I lived on the west coast, but happily went to shows in San Diego, Orange County, LA and even Phoenix. I've also flown out for shows on the east coast and caught both Milwaukee and Chicago shows, too. So no, it ain't just "east coast peeps".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on July 06, 2019, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: DTA on July 06, 2019, 05:51:57 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 05:27:16 AM


To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.

Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour’s setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.


Yeah I was disappointed with Pull Me Under as the encore. It should've been Metropolis Part I!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 07, 2019, 12:26:45 AM
Quote from: DTA on July 06, 2019, 05:51:57 AM
Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour’s setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.

That's only a "misstep" if you think those b-sides are worth hearing.  DLPM was the low point of the I&W&B set list, and TLF wasn't far behind (especially since I'd seen TLF live in the past).  As much as I don't really feel the need ever to see TSCO live, it would have been a far better choice IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on July 09, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
This Dying Soul may make sense to be back in the live set at some point. I'd like to hear how MM would approach it anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 10, 2019, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 09, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
This Dying Soul may make sense to be back in the live set at some point. I'd like to hear how MM would approach it anyway.

Hell f'n yes!! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on July 10, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
I absolutely hate the instrumental wankery section on TDS. Makes me cringe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 10, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
Quote from: goo-goo on July 10, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
I absolutely hate the instrumental wankery section on TDS. Makes me cringe.

I don't hate it, but it is over the top.  Still love that song though.


Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Which ones are those?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on July 10, 2019, 03:12:44 PM
I was surprised how much I enjoyed TDS when MP's TSF played it, but honestly, never really loved it (I do love the intro though) and have no desire to see DT play it.  I'm not sure it would be as good honestly either played to a click vs. that haken/mp more up tempo version
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on July 10, 2019, 03:21:13 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Check out Frameshift's Unweaving the Rainbow. Stellar performance by James. Henning Pauly made sure James' voice shined in this album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 03:21:26 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 10, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Which ones are those?

Starting here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wKx_SBjHDY&feature=youtu.be&t=236
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on July 10, 2019, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Agreed; Barstool Warrior and At Wit’s End are the only songs I find myself going back to these days. It think people give it a lot of leeway because there really aren’t any TERRIBLE songs (that and it’s not called the Astonishing) but, overall it’s seriously lacking. For the Mangini era, it’s a distant second behind ADToE which outclasses it in every conceivable way.

Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 11:58:32 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on July 10, 2019, 11:13:42 PM
Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.

My biggest issue with the album is that to my ears, it just sounds flat and lacks any snap and sharp edges, especially compared with SC which followed.  So even though there's good music there, I just don't feel it so much on a visceral level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on July 11, 2019, 03:08:14 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on July 10, 2019, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Agreed; Barstool Warrior and At Wit’s End are the only songs I find myself going back to these days. It think people give it a lot of leeway because there really aren’t any TERRIBLE songs (that and it’s not called the Astonishing) but, overall it’s seriously lacking. For the Mangini era, it’s a distant second behind ADToE which outclasses it in every conceivable way.

Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.
similarly, I only go back to Out Of Reach and Pale Blue Dot. I usually skip everything else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 11, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on July 11, 2019, 07:50:16 AM
This whole album is great for me. Sometimes I think I want to skip UA, but if it comes on when I can’t, I enjoy it more than I think I will.
This is a great rockin’ album and better than Dream Theater, PBD is turning into an epic-y song for me, even though it is short by DT standards.

I do agree with the post above. ADToE is the best!  But if you want to rock out, bang your head a bit, than d/t  has it.

All of their albums have a distinct and different quality, I could listen to say, Symphony X and it becomes blah, blah, the same. For every mood, there is an album with Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lifeamongtheruins on July 11, 2019, 12:07:55 PM
Saw them live for the first time yesterday night and I found Labrie suuuper awkward on stage. Lots of people hate on his voice, but I really can't complain about yesterday, he sang well even on Lie. It was just that even when he didn't disappear for the super long instrumental sections (which is totally understandable) he just went to drink something with his back to the crowd, and his interactions with the crowd weren't always well received. Since they have 2 members who obviously play in a fixed position and JM who is JM, a singer with a better stage presence would help immensely in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 11, 2019, 12:40:22 PM
Super awkward you say?

I think not!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/lqSwByDJaUBck7RoLZ/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 11, 2019, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Evai on July 11, 2019, 12:40:22 PM
Super awkward you say?

I think not!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/lqSwByDJaUBck7RoLZ/giphy.gif)

Now see if you can find one of JP falling off the stage.


JLB's job is not to be an overly charismatic front man.  DT is not Van Halen or Dio.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on July 11, 2019, 04:46:35 PM
Most people really like BITS, but man that second pre-chorus when James sings “Fie-uh” instead of “Fie-ERR!!” really robs that section of power. The word fire needs way more balls.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2019, 05:34:16 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 11, 2019, 01:38:37 PM
JLB's job is not to be an overly charismatic front man.  DT is not Van Halen or Dio.
Ummm, I always thought that was part of the job of a front man. It has nothing to do with the fact that he isn't in Dio or VH. In fact, that was an issue that was brought up shortly after MP left - something to the effect of now JL finally gets to be the front man, since MP was the one who had really engaged the audience in the past, essentially not allowing JL to do his job.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 11, 2019, 06:00:59 PM
Being a natural and charismatic frontman feels like something that comes naturally.  It's almost like people such as Freddie Mercury, Bono, Mick Jagger and David Lee Roth (in his prime) were born to be on stage and entertaining large crowds.  I think JLB does a good job overall, but I would never call him a great or natural born-frontman, and there is nothing with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lifeamongtheruins on July 12, 2019, 02:14:16 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2019, 05:34:16 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 11, 2019, 01:38:37 PM
JLB's job is not to be an overly charismatic front man.  DT is not Van Halen or Dio.
Ummm, I always thought that was part of the job of a front man. It has nothing to do with the fact that he isn't in Dio or VH. In fact, that was an issue that was brought up shortly after MP left - something to the effect of now JL finally gets to be the front man, since MP was the one who had really engaged the audience in the past, essentially not allowing JL to do his job.
Now it's JP stealing his spot - or at least, he was that day. At the end of the gig JLB was trying to give a speech about how great the support band was, but nobody cared because Petrucci was throwing his picks, and even James seemed kind of annoyed at him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 12, 2019, 10:50:41 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 11, 2019, 05:34:16 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 11, 2019, 01:38:37 PM
JLB's job is not to be an overly charismatic front man.  DT is not Van Halen or Dio.
Ummm, I always thought that was part of the job of a front man. It has nothing to do with the fact that he isn't in Dio or VH. In fact, that was an issue that was brought up shortly after MP left - something to the effect of now JL finally gets to be the front man, since MP was the one who had really engaged the audience in the past, essentially not allowing JL to do his job.

We could probably have a whole thread about this.  JLB's job, in my opinion, is to be the lead singer.  Does that mean he has to be an overly charismatic front man?  IMO, no.  Keep in mind that I was responding to a comment that someone "found Labrie suuuper awkward on stage" and that "his interactions with the crowd weren't always well received."  Obviously, I wasn't at the show in question, but I've never had any problem with JLB as a "front man."  I mention bands like VH and Dio because those bands had extremely charismatic front men and, if I was going to see VH (with DLR) or Dio, that's something I would want.  I don't need any of that from JLB.  I need him to sing like he's been singing for the past decade plus and, occasionally, to introduce the songs.  In terms of JLB being a "front man," I'm fine with him being Geddy Lee, rather than DLR.

As far as what you wrote about MP, I know what you're talking about, but it was another thing that I never found to be an issue at the shows I attended.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on July 12, 2019, 01:17:15 PM
re: DoT...

I'll admit I loved it when it came out, but I haven't listened to it since the day before seeing them back in April.

Actually I haven't listened to much DT since then. I'm on the burn out stage of the album cycle.

If / when they come back here on a second leg, unless the setlist has non DoT stuff that I MUST see, I would be fine skipping out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on July 13, 2019, 05:07:56 PM
Quote from: Lifeamongtheruins on July 11, 2019, 12:07:55 PM
Saw them live for the first time yesterday night and I found Labrie suuuper awkward on stage. Lots of people hate on his voice, but I really can't complain about yesterday, he sang well even on Lie. It was just that even when he didn't disappear for the super long instrumental sections (which is totally understandable) he just went to drink something with his back to the crowd, and his interactions with the crowd weren't always well received. Since they have 2 members who obviously play in a fixed position and JM who is JM, a singer with a better stage presence would help immensely in my opinion.

Agreed. He's not very interesting to watch on stage but I kinda like that thing he does when he kinda just paces back and forth as he sings sings :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 14, 2019, 10:13:43 AM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

I don't entirely agree with this, but I'm sympathetic to parts of it. To me, the whole over-the-top reaction to this album has been kind of confusing to me, because it really just does not have any of the elements of a stunning album to me. I'd generally say that it's a solid late-career entry, maybe close to the level of DT12, but really nothing that, just to my ear, warrants the level of enthusiasm I've seen for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 14, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
Any album that doesn't evidently blows benefits from the "OMG SO AWESOME" factor, given by the novelty of it and the excitement it brings.

Also, this album was already a winner for those who actively disliked The Astonishing, for them it was basically the first "real", "non opera" DT album in 6 years, that contributed also.

As for me, I stand by my initial judgements - I like everything about the record, and yet it's one I've played very rarely. I've never liked this (relatively) little an album where I find really nothing to complain about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on July 14, 2019, 05:38:16 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on July 14, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
Any album that doesn't evidently blows benefits from the "OMG SO AWESOME" factor, given by the novelty of it and the excitement it brings.

I would understand this solely talking about the hardcore fanbase of a particular artist. But it was my impression that this album was receiving a similar reaction even from many who are only casual fans of the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 15, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 11, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley:

There's a good reason it doesn't exist, whatever that reason may be. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 15, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 15, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 11, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley:

There's a good reason it doesn't exist, whatever that reason may be. :lol

Because prog fans suck and rejected my favourite album, while pining for subpar retreads of past material. I hope this post isn't too hate-y, I try not to post stuff like that  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on July 20, 2019, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Agreed. I don't really know how to explain it but even though D/T is a solid album and I don't have too much criticism for it, I don't think it's particularly great. It just doesn't have a WOW factor that most DT albums have. It's simply ok.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on July 21, 2019, 12:07:02 PM
Quote from: Evai on July 15, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 15, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 11, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley:

There's a good reason it doesn't exist, whatever that reason may be. :lol

Because prog fans suck and rejected my favourite album, while pining for subpar retreads of past material. I hope this post isn't too hate-y, I try not to post stuff like that  :lol
Okay but regardless of whether you did or didn't like TA, wouldn't a live rendition of it just be a literal retread? Like, M2000 at least had some accompanying film and was from a time when DT's live performances were distinguishable from just playing the CD loudly. TA's only live difference that I can think of would be an extended version of A New Beginning (which, imo, would be one of the better parts of a live album, but I digress).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on July 21, 2019, 12:35:11 PM
It's nice to see the bands playing the songs you like, that's the appeal :) Most of the songs on TA will never have any pro-shot video/recordings available. Moment Of Betrayal maybe at some point?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
- WDADU is amongst the Top 3 DT records
- still not happy about the reference to freemasonry in AROP
- not sure whether this is really that controversial but KM was the way better keyboardist than JR in terms of being a "complete" artist, not just a superb performer
- TA isn't by far the piece of crap literally everyone a lot of people outside this forum make of it, just about 30-40 minutes too long
- when DT ever perform any part of SDOIT (the song), it seems very likely to be WIMH/TTTSTA. Why the hell the latter one? Probably the worst thing they ever wrote, except for significant parts of FII
- Furthermore, they should have hired a female vocalist for GK. The line "are you lonely without mommy's love" sung by JLB gives me an epic cringe
- I strongly dislike the beginning of LTL though the actual song is top tier to me

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 05:41:02 PM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
- WDADU is amongst the Top 3 DT records
 

As much as I like WDADU, I can't go that far.

Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM

- not sure whether this is really that controversial but KM was the way better keyboardist than JR in terms of being a "complete" artist, not just a superb performer

Agreed. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 22, 2019, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
- still not happy about the reference to freemasonry in AROP

Eh?


Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
- TA isn't by far the piece of crap literally everyone makes of it, just about 30-40 minutes too long

My (non-)controversial opinion is that it's annoying when people say "literally" when they mean something completely different.   :biggrin:  I don't think even TA's biggest detractors here think it's a piece of crap.  I'm not a fan of it, but there's nothing "crappy" about it.


Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 05:13:33 PM
- when DT ever perform any part of SDOIT (the song), it seems very likely to be WIMH/TTTSTA. Why the hell the latter one? Probably the worst thing they ever wrote, except for significant parts of FII

Except when it's not.  Here are the most recent dates of parts of SDOIT:

About to Crash:  August 2, 2015
War Inside My Head:  September 1, 2012
TTTSTA:  September 1, 2012
Solitary Shell:  March 20, 2010
Everything else:  April 1, 2006

As far as your "why" question, I think the answer is because the band and lots of fans hold an opinion that differs from yours.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
Quote
My (non-)controversial opinion is that it's annoying when people say "literally" when they mean something completely different. 
What makes you believe to know what I mean and what I don't?

Quote
I don't think even TA's biggest detractors here think it's a piece of crap.  I'm not a fan of it, but there's nothing "crappy" about it.
It's beyond my knowledge what "detractors here" think about it. I wasn't even reading this forum until recently. But I can tell for sure that the number of "detractors elsewhere" is immense and ripping TA to shreds appeared to be the overwhelmingly dominant position.

Quote
Except when it's not.  Here are the most recent dates of parts of SDOIT
Going through a vast number of gigs on setlist.fm gave me the impression that especially WIMH/TTTSTA is a very preferred chunk of SDOIT for DT to play on stage. I might be wrong about this as well. Mea culpa. Selective perception and stuff.

Quote
As far as your "why" question, I think the answer is because the band and lots of fans hold an opinion that differs from yours.
Congrats, after 275 pages someone finally discovered the very definition of "controversy".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 07:11:36 PM
I would kindly suggest reading the forum and seeing what people here think, instead of assuming that everybody hates it, based on a lot of bad reviews elsewhere.  Most here are easy to get along with, so no need to go on the offensive so quickly.  Do some reading and enjoy the chatter.  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 07:11:36 PM
instead of assuming that everybody hates it, based on a lot of bad reviews elsewhere.  Most here are easy to get along with, so no need to go on the offensive so quickly.
According to rumors, not only journalists are free to share their positions on records but also regular folks. Of whom a huge amount were not pleased with TA at all. I also apologize for not realising the duty of reading hundreds of pages of conversation as a passing exam for the permission of posting in here.

Hopefully noone feels offended now :\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 08:06:22 PM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 07:11:36 PM
instead of assuming that everybody hates it, based on a lot of bad reviews elsewhere.  Most here are easy to get along with, so no need to go on the offensive so quickly.
According to rumors, not only journalists are free to share their positions on records but also regular folks. Of whom a huge amount were not pleased with TA at all. I also apologize for not realising the duty of reading hundreds of pages of conversation as a passing exam for the permission of posting in here.

Hopefully noone feels offended now :\

Good grief. I was offering some friendly advice. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on July 22, 2019, 08:06:22 PM
Good grief. I was offering some friendly advice.
Which was understood and accepted.

I honestly don't get what the issue is. Not being well aware of some universally valid point of view in this forum?

And apparently some statement of mine has been misunderstood as an offence. Please specify.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on July 22, 2019, 08:53:05 PM
Well Shmev, in rotbaer's defense, this *is* the controversial opinion thread! You can't expect everything he thinks/believes to be in harmony with everyone else here, especially in this thread!   :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 23, 2019, 01:20:35 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 15, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 15, 2019, 10:35:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on July 11, 2019, 04:10:16 AM
I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley:

There's a good reason it doesn't exist, whatever that reason may be. :lol

Because prog fans suck and rejected my favourite album, while pining for subpar retreads of past material. I hope this post isn't too hate-y, I try not to post stuff like that  :lol

I can agree to this but maybe it's not so much the prog fans as the metal fans snubbing it?

Anyway I would have loved a live BluRay of the Astonishing (which is my favorite album of DT as well). I would even buy it if the videoportion was only the screens output.

They finally did something a little bit different and made a fantastic tour playing the album in full, with visuals and all. That would have been a tour to record for posterity....

I will be mad if they release the current tour on BlueRay.... why release Scenes from a Memory in full again (even if it is one of their best albums it's already got a live release).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 09:25:57 AM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 22, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
Quote
My (non-)controversial opinion is that it's annoying when people say "literally" when they mean something completely different. 

What makes you believe to know what I mean and what I don't?

Well...either you meant something other than "literally everyone" (most likely) or you're wrong.  "Literally everyone" does not think TA is a "piece of crap."  I know that because (1) I don't think it's a piece of crap, and (2) lots of folks here like it.  I'm aware that lots of folks (both on and not on this forum) don't like it, but that's not "literally everyone," and "don't like" and "piece of crap" are not the same thing.

That's all I was saying.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 23, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 09:25:57 AM
Well...either you meant something other than "literally everyone" (most likely) or you're wrong.  "Literally everyone" does not think TA is a "piece of crap."  I know that because (1) I don't think it's a piece of crap, and (2) lots of folks here like it.  I'm aware that lots of folks (both on and not on this forum) don't like it, but that's not "literally everyone," and "don't like" and "piece of crap" are not the same thing.
Bro, if I should ever happened to intend to say "absolutely everyone", I'd have said it. Don't tell me you don't know the difference between "absolutely everyone" and "literally everyone". Merriam-Webster should be reliable enough as a source to prove that I'm not just a regular online twaddler.

Enjoy the 2nd definiton (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally) with a cool beer and take note of the fact that some people were already using the word "literally" before the Kardashians made it cool.

I'm not even going to discuss the "don't like/piece of crap" part in order not to serve your hair-splitting.

No hard feelings!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 23, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 09:25:57 AM
Well...either you meant something other than "literally everyone" (most likely) or you're wrong.  "Literally everyone" does not think TA is a "piece of crap."  I know that because (1) I don't think it's a piece of crap, and (2) lots of folks here like it.  I'm aware that lots of folks (both on and not on this forum) don't like it, but that's not "literally everyone," and "don't like" and "piece of crap" are not the same thing.
Bro, if I should ever happened to intend to say "absolutely everyone", I'd have said it.

Your obvious mastery of the English language being what it is, I'm just going to ignore this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: rotbaer on July 23, 2019, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: rotbaer on July 23, 2019, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 23, 2019, 09:25:57 AM
Well...either you meant something other than "literally everyone" (most likely) or you're wrong.  "Literally everyone" does not think TA is a "piece of crap."  I know that because (1) I don't think it's a piece of crap, and (2) lots of folks here like it.  I'm aware that lots of folks (both on and not on this forum) don't like it, but that's not "literally everyone," and "don't like" and "piece of crap" are not the same thing.
Bro, if I should ever happened to intend to say "absolutely everyone", I'd have said it.

Your obvious mastery of the English language being what it is, I'm just going to ignore this.
Profoundly sorry for being a non-native speaker. But I try my best.

Any particular reason for coloring the first part in green?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 23, 2019, 01:14:08 PM
Green font = sarcasm
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on July 23, 2019, 01:15:49 PM
He knows.  He used it with some of his prior accounts before being banned previously.

Anyhow, bye, troll.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 23, 2019, 01:17:25 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on July 23, 2019, 01:15:49 PM
He knows.  He used it with some of his prior accounts before being banned previously.

Really? IP tracking's a bitch  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on July 28, 2019, 07:48:06 AM
D/T may well be DT's equivalent to what Abacab was for Genesis in some ways (raw sounding and all that, written collectively with everyone in one room, you get the idea)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Duke59 on July 29, 2019, 04:04:50 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 17, 2019, 05:27:05 PM
When I think about volume swells, the first thing that comes to mind is the intro to Xanadu by Rush.  The second thing that comes to mind is Cathedral by Van Halen.  Alex Lifeson uses a volume pedal on Xanadu, whereas Meniketti used the volume knob in the linked video.  I believe (but am not sure) that EVH also uses the knob on Cathedral.

Also Steve Hackett uses a particular volume swell style in his playing.

I.e. listen to "Hairless heart"  from Genesis or "The Steppes" from his solo career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on July 30, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
Damn it, Bosk! I really wanted to know his beef with the freemasonry in AROP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on July 31, 2019, 10:00:46 AM
Quote from: Zook on July 30, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
Damn it, Bosk! I really wanted to know his beef with the freemasonry in AROP.

:rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 01, 2019, 06:41:27 AM
Quote from: Zook on July 30, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
Damn it, Bosk! I really wanted to know his beef with the freemasonry in AROP.
Lol maybe he's the famous Dunford00!

This is a comment I found years ago on AROP:
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/d35408518f87e5a5cd026e0339bd9962/tumblr_mg5oramR081qbqjqvo1_540.jpg)

Then he resurfaced on TLG:
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/ef4ae1054518705394a16679fe049b9a/tumblr_mxotidcodE1sqwvkgo1_500.jpg)

Please don't think I'm weird for saving these, they just give me chuckles  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on August 01, 2019, 06:52:54 AM
I hope that guy doesn't vote and doesn't have kids.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Grizz on August 01, 2019, 03:36:33 PM
God it's like MrDreamTheater2 got lead poisoning
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
another one from me: Imagine James had been with DT from the beginning and had recorded WDADU with them already. That might have had a different outcome. (I say so because it is evidenced on WDADR that he nailed everything on the record and I personally like his take on these pieces a lot, even more so than the original versions)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on August 27, 2019, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
another one from me: Imagine James had been with DT from the beginning and had recorded WDADU with them already. That might have had a different outcome. (I say so because it is evidenced on WDADR that he nailed everything on the record and I personally like his take on these pieces a lot, even more so than the original versions)

I'm not sure that WDADRu (recorded in 2004) is evidence of anything as it relates to WDADU, but I don't think anyone would disagree that WDADU would have been better with a 26 year old James Labrie as the singer.

I don't think things would have turned out much differently, however, since the biggest problem was the lack of label support, and that probably wouldn't have changed just because Labrie was on board.  It might have resulted in I&W coming out a year or so earlier.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on August 27, 2019, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
another one from me: Imagine James had been with DT from the beginning and had recorded WDADU with them already. That might have had a different outcome. (I say so because it is evidenced on WDADR that he nailed everything on the record and I personally like his take on these pieces a lot, even more so than the original versions)

I'm not sure that WDADRu (recorded in 2004) is evidence of anything as it relates to WDADU, but I don't think anyone would disagree that WDADU would have been better with a 26 year old James Labrie as the singer.

I don't think things would have turned out much differently, however, since the biggest problem was the lack of label support, and that probably wouldn't have changed just because Labrie was on board.  It might have resulted in I&W coming out a year or so earlier.
yes, very true, but I meant musically speaking it might have been more impactful given how able he was back then (and still is today but differently from that particular time)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on August 27, 2019, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on August 27, 2019, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
another one from me: Imagine James had been with DT from the beginning and had recorded WDADU with them already. That might have had a different outcome. (I say so because it is evidenced on WDADR that he nailed everything on the record and I personally like his take on these pieces a lot, even more so than the original versions)

I'm not sure that WDADRu (recorded in 2004) is evidence of anything as it relates to WDADU, but I don't think anyone would disagree that WDADU would have been better with a 26 year old James Labrie as the singer.

I don't think things would have turned out much differently, however, since the biggest problem was the lack of label support, and that probably wouldn't have changed just because Labrie was on board.  It might have resulted in I&W coming out a year or so earlier.
yes, very true, but I meant musically speaking it might have been more impactful given how able he was back then (and still is today but differently from that particular time)

I guess I'm struggling to find something potentially "controversial" in that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on August 27, 2019, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on August 27, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
another one from me: Imagine James had been with DT from the beginning and had recorded WDADU with them already. That might have had a different outcome. (I say so because it is evidenced on WDADR that he nailed everything on the record and I personally like his take on these pieces a lot, even more so than the original versions)

Career-wise I don’t think it would have changed much for DT. WDaDU is a good album but it still sounds like a band in search of their identity. To be blunt, they sound like a band trying a bit too hard to be the next Fates Warning and/or Queensryche. Even if they had LaBrie, I just don’t think they were ready for prime time in ‘89. Images is when they stepped out of that shadow and showed the world exactly what DT was all about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on August 27, 2019, 09:15:58 PM
As much as I love James's delivery on the older albums, Charlie is a perfectly fine singer. He had quite a unique sound compared to other prog bands in that scene. I don't see his presence on WD&DU as a detriment to the album at all.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on August 27, 2019, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on August 27, 2019, 09:15:58 PM
As much as I love James's delivery on the older albums, Charlie is a perfectly fine singer. He had quite a unique sound compared to other prog bands in that scene. I don't see his presence on WD&DU as a detriment to the album at all.  :metal

I think Charlie did his best, and that was quite good tbh, I have no problem with his singing on WDADU, except maybe for THAT part on TKH...
Imo, he just gets the hate because James is so much better, that the contrast doesn't make Charlie look good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 28, 2019, 08:14:21 AM
I think of Charlie and James as two different kinds of good.  As MP said, James was better suited for what they wanted to do going forward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on August 28, 2019, 09:18:41 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on August 27, 2019, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on August 27, 2019, 09:15:58 PM
As much as I love James's delivery on the older albums, Charlie is a perfectly fine singer. He had quite a unique sound compared to other prog bands in that scene. I don't see his presence on WD&DU as a detriment to the album at all.  :metal

I think Charlie did his best, and that was quite good tbh, I have no problem with his singing on WDADU, except maybe for THAT part on TKH...
Imo, he just gets the hate because James is so much better, that the contrast doesn't make Charlie look good.

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.  I think there are two things that kept Charlie from shining on the album:
(1) He wasn't really a metal singer at that time; and
(2) The songs weren't written to play to his vocal strengths.

WDADRU is an interesting example, when he is singing next to James.  James does fine, but it definitely wasn't one of his best nights.  And by the time they got to the encore when Charlie came out, James' voice was obviously tired.  As a result, I think James sounds thin, and there are a few moments where he is a bit shrill.  Then you have Charlie's voice right up against James'.  And while Charlie clearly does not have the range and power that James has, his voice has a warmth and depth that James' doesn't.  And contrasted with James' more tired delivery at that point in the set, Charlie sounds better than he otherwise would have.  That isn't meant to be a knock against either singer.  To me, James clearly does a better job with all of those songs.  But we got to hear Charlie years later, doing only two songs when his voice was fresh, and he sounded pretty good.

Then you take Charlie on his solo albums.  He sounds really good on all of them, and there is a definite, marked improvement just over the course of those three albums from O1 to O3.  He was finding his voice and finding a way to sing metal that worked well for his voice, and the result was pretty good.  AND those songs and vocal melodies were written to showcase his voice, and not with his voice simply being an afterthought. 

To this day, I still don't like Charlie's voice on WDADU.  It doesn't work for me.  And the above are the reasons why.  But until he resurfaced on WDADRU and with his solo work, I assumed that I just didn't like his voice at all.  Hearing him with more experience in this genre and doing material that is better suited to him changed my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on August 28, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
Yes, I distinctly remember certain parts at the end of WDADRU when Charlie actually sounded better than James and I knew exactly why.  It was nice to see and hear Charlie shine like that.   :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on August 29, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
He sounds better on WDADRU, but I don't think Charlie could've sung the high parts James was hitting and sound as good (Charlie sings up to an A4, James sings up to D5)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on August 31, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
I like how Prime LaBrie sounds on the material from the first album more than Dominici.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on September 02, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
I don't think James sounds all that great on WDADR honestly. He did an amazing job singing WDADU songs in the early 90's for sure though, especially The Killing Hand. I really love Dominici's work in WDADU, he's a great singer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on September 02, 2019, 01:01:07 AM
I have no idea how at any point in the auditioning process prior to recording WD&DU (or whenever it was) everyone agreed "yeah, this guy Charlie is totally the right vocalist for the sound we are trying to achieve.."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 02, 2019, 06:20:03 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on September 02, 2019, 01:01:07 AM
I have no idea how at any point in the auditioning process prior to recording WD&DU (or whenever it was) everyone agreed "yeah, this guy Charlie is totally the right vocalist for the sound we are trying to achieve.."

He came after Chris Collins, so the improvement was huge :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on September 02, 2019, 08:32:36 AM
Quote from: 54_diplomats on September 02, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
I don't think James sounds all that great on WDADR honestly. He did an amazing job singing WDADU songs in the early 90's for sure though, especially The Killing Hand. I really love Dominici's work in WDADU, he's a great singer.

Oh yeah, nothing against Dominici. He didn't sound very good in the early live stuff I've heard but I like how he sounds on the album. And as Bosk pointed out, Dominici sounds damn good when he's singing within his range. I don't know why the DT leaders tried to get him to sing out of his range or normal style. I guess they were just young and excited when they thought they found the right mang for the job.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 02, 2019, 08:40:13 AM
Well, at the time, Charlie was older and a little bit accomplished.

I think for WDADU itself, Charlie is fine. I don't have an issue with what it was.

I prefer WDADRu mainly because I like the continuity of one voice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on September 02, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 08:40:13 AM
I prefer WDADRu mainly because I like the continuity of one voice.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
Well, If I am listening to DT on shuffle, or making a mix tape, I don't like going back and forth between vocalists.



But to me, listening to DT means listening to James. If I want to hear The Killing Hand, I reach for WDADRu or LatM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on September 02, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
Well, If I am listening to DT on shuffle, or making a mix tape, I don't like going back and forth between vocalists.



But to me, listening to DT means listening to James. If I want to hear The Killing Hand, I reach for WDADRu or LatM.

I get it now  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:23:49 AM
Yeah, and I'm not on the "Charlie sucks, the production sucks" bandwagon either. I think the album itself is excellent, and I usually judge albums by the songs. And I love the songs on WDADU.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 02, 2019, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:23:49 AM
Yeah, and I'm not on the "Charlie sucks, the production sucks" bandwagon either. I think the album itself is excellent, and I usually judge albums by the songs. And I love the songs on WDADU.  :metal
me either
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 02, 2019, 02:08:25 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:23:49 AM
Yeah, and I'm not on the "Charlie sucks, the production sucks" bandwagon either. I think the album itself is excellent, and I usually judge albums by the songs. And I love the songs on WDADU.  :metal

This. The songwriting in WDADU is excellent, even though the production wasn’t too good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 03, 2019, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
But to me, listening to DT means listening to James. If I want to hear The Killing Hand, I reach for WDADRu or LatM.

The LaTM version rules!  :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on September 03, 2019, 06:50:47 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on September 03, 2019, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
But to me, listening to DT means listening to James. If I want to hear The Killing Hand, I reach for WDADRu or LatM.

The LaTM version rules!  :2metal:

My favourite live version of TKH is from the b-side of the Hollow Years single.

The instrumental section (7:50-END) with JP playing some slide with DS on the organ along with the unison of that familiar melody (don't know the name of the actual song) and JL's smooth vox is just so cool and and don't forget the blink-and-you'll-miss-it part where they play the riff from A Fortune In Lies behind the vocals instead of the as-recorded riff (5:43-5:59).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on September 06, 2019, 11:02:06 PM
The Glass Prison hasn't aged well for me, at all. It was among my top 5 DT songs, now I consider it the weakest song on 6DoIT, and It's my second least favorite song of the Twelve Step Suite only beaten by The Shattered Fortress.

Maybe it's the DJ scratches and the chug-chug riffs in the middle part (They did take some influence from the Nu-Metal scene of the time, didn't they?) or too much Portnoy-backed vocals, or the fact that the vocal melodies aren't really memorable after the first four minutes, I don't know. Maybe it's in part because I feel it started the whole Trade-off solo wankfest that MP and JP wanted to include in all the DT long songs during the 00s. Now This specific tradeoff solo part is really great, and so are the majority of the ones that followed in that album; but it started the whole cliché of solo sections that ended up being so annoying in BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on September 07, 2019, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on September 06, 2019, 11:02:06 PM
The Glass Prison hasn't aged well for me, at all. It was among my top 5 DT songs, now I consider it the weakest song on 6DoIT, and It's my second least favorite song of the Twelve Step Suite only beaten by The Shattered Fortress.

Maybe it's the DJ scratches and the chug-chug riffs in the middle part (They did take some influence from the Nu-Metal scene of the time, didn't they?) or too much Portnoy-backed vocals, or the fact that the vocal melodies aren't really memorable after the first four minutes, I don't know. Maybe it's in part because I feel it started the whole Trade-off solo wankfest that MP and JP wanted to include in all the DT long songs during the 00s. Now This specific tradeoff solo part is really great, and so are the majority of the ones that followed in that album; but it started the whole cliché of solo sections that ended up being so annoying in BC&SL.

Kind of agree but it's not like I'm gonna skip The Wank.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZirconBlue on September 07, 2019, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: PetFish on September 03, 2019, 06:50:47 PM
My favourite live version of TKH is from the b-side of the Hollow Years single.

The instrumental section (7:50-END) with JP playing some slide with DS on the organ along with the unison of that familiar melody (don't know the name of the actual song) and JL's smooth vox is just so cool and and don't forget the blink-and-you'll-miss-it part where they play the riff from A Fortune In Lies behind the vocals instead of the as-recorded riff (5:43-5:59).


That's my favorite version, as well.  I love the Carol of the Bells section.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on September 15, 2019, 09:04:54 AM
I like how Labrie's advice to Charlie to sing 'Swimming in a lake of fire' on WDADRu, was to go into falsetto... Sounds like he wanted to cause another 'I am the killing haaaand' moment to me   :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on September 18, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
I get cranky when I skip the wank too many times...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 18, 2019, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on September 18, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
I get cranky when I skip the wank too many times...
one does not skip any wank section when it comes to DT :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on September 18, 2019, 10:50:41 AM
Yea but too much wank and I start to chafe
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 18, 2019, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on September 18, 2019, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: JayOctavarium on September 18, 2019, 10:37:55 AM
I get cranky when I skip the wank too many times...
one does not skip any wank section when it comes to DT :D

I skip the wankery sections in Illumination Theory by skipping the entire song. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on September 18, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
I wank during the wank sections of the song.  Wait, what?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on September 18, 2019, 03:18:33 PM
King!!  STOP THAT!!!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 23, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
So it was JM that wanted to play Don't Look Past Me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: danoz on September 25, 2019, 07:58:17 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I would say Space Dye Vest is pretty haunting. I love both songs, it's just that SDV is more obscure and creepy. Out of Reach is definitely more conventional in a structured song sense though, however both have a lot of emotional depth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 25, 2019, 08:02:29 PM
I think I've listened to Out Of Reach once.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on September 25, 2019, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: TAC on September 25, 2019, 08:02:29 PM
I think I've listened to Out Of Reach once.

I've listened to it many times, but feel like I've only heard it once. :corn
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on September 25, 2019, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.
Disagree, but what's great is that music hits people differently. I find the keyboard intro to Metropolis Pt 1 to be more haunting and emotional than anything JR has done. Space Dye Vest in haunting, Wait For Sleep is restrained and emotional, whereas I think JR would have done some crazy and fit as many notes into one section as he can.

I will say, Distance Over Time is JR's most restrained album and tasteful albums, he adds a lot to it and it wouldn't be the same album without it. The keys he plays over the guitar riffs at the beginning of Wit's End are really cool
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 26, 2019, 03:29:35 AM
I attended The Astonishing Live and IMHO, the album worked a lot better live than I thought and I learned to appreciate it by way of the live show (which might have been harder had it not been for that)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 26, 2019, 07:19:03 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.
REALLY controversial opinion: Out of Reach is the best song on Distance Over Time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 26, 2019, 08:22:15 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 26, 2019, 07:19:03 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.
REALLY controversial opinion: Out of Reach is the best song on Distance Over Time.
yes, along with PBD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lonk on September 26, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Build me up, Break me down has Petrucci's best guitar riff from ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on September 26, 2019, 09:01:38 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

That is damn controversial  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 26, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

With the caveat that I've never heard anything composed by KM other than his contributions to DT, I don't agree with this, but only because of the superlative nature of the statement.  I don't think there's much of anything on WDADU that I would describe as "haunting" or "beautiful."  On I&W, you've got Surrounded (the intro and outro) and Wait for Sleep, and on Awake, you've got SDV (you could also throw Eve into the mix).  I would say all of those compositions are on roughly the same level, and I would disagree that any of them is "far more haunting and beautiful" than any of the others.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 26, 2019, 11:27:05 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on September 26, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
I don't think there's much of anything on WDADU that I would describe as "haunting" or "beautiful."

The keyboard intro on TOWHTSTS fits these criteria, imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on September 26, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
James' new tattoo looks ridiculous and out of place. I think I hate it.   

*runs for cover*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on September 26, 2019, 01:07:46 PM
Quote from: Chino on September 26, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
James' new tattoo looks ridiculous and out of place. I think I hate it.   

*runs for cover*

NO U
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on September 26, 2019, 06:34:49 PM
Quote from: Chino on September 26, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
James' new tattoo looks ridiculous and out of place.

I am not a tattoo guy to begin with, and most times I see tattoos that large and detailed I tend to dislike them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on September 26, 2019, 08:23:45 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't necessarily agree with you but the piano melody he plays on that song is pretty damn beautiful and haunting. That's what drives me nuts about him. He has the ability to play these beautiful and somewhat simplistic, at least by his standards, melodies, but without somebody like Petrucci to restrain him he gets to noodley.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SystematicThought on September 26, 2019, 11:27:32 PM
Quote from: Chino on September 26, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
James' new tattoo looks ridiculous and out of place. I think I hate it.   

*runs for cover*
Agreed 1000%. In about 15 years, it's going to look really dumb. More power to him, but it's kinda overkill
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on September 26, 2019, 11:45:46 PM
Tattoo regrets are always why did I get that -or- it should be bigger... seems to me JLB has been around enough to know what he wants, and won’t GAF in 15 years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on September 27, 2019, 08:15:35 PM
Right, what is James, mid to late 50's? I doubt at 70, he'll look back and go WTF? I would think he's at the age now to regret something he did when he was 20. But I think he's old enough..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on September 28, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
 I think James' new tattoo rocks!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: romdrums on September 28, 2019, 09:11:18 AM
Here’s one: having Mike Mangini in the band has boosted their overall level of professionalism and respect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on September 28, 2019, 09:13:13 AM
Quote from: romdrums on September 28, 2019, 09:11:18 AM
Here’s one: having Mike Mangini in the band has boosted their overall level of professionalism and respect.
yes, because they make less mistakes live. (and I haven't heard Jordan and MM make any)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on September 28, 2019, 11:09:05 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on September 28, 2019, 09:13:13 AM
Quote from: romdrums on September 28, 2019, 09:11:18 AM
Here’s one: having Mike Mangini in the band has boosted their overall level of professionalism and respect.
yes, because they make less mistakes live. (and I haven't heard Jordan and MM make any)

Right, because Dream Theater had a reputation for sloppy playing and lack of respect amongst fans/musicians before Mangini... :P

Professionalism and respect in what context? Without knowing more, I’d disagree with the hypothesis and would argue their reputation for professionalism and respect has remained pretty consistent throughout their careers minus a couple hiccups in both the Mangini and Portnoy era.

If we are talking about respect and professionalism between the band members, as in relationship-wise, then perhaps.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on September 30, 2019, 01:53:04 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on September 28, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
I think James' new tattoo rocks!
Nope!  :yarr
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on September 30, 2019, 10:19:18 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.

I like the length and appreciate when DT seems to be taking a bit too much time, and I enjoy all the different parts. The going back and being redundant, kind of fits with the whole premise of the song anyway. For me, sometimes a build up needs to take a step back or just hang - it creates even more build up. That's just me. I love every second of Ocatavarium.  :heart
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 30, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.
Hmmm.  The only part I feel is too long is the intro - ESPECIALLY on the live versions.  *shrugs*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on September 30, 2019, 11:57:13 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on September 30, 2019, 11:39:01 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.
Hmmm.  The only part I feel is too long is the intro - ESPECIALLY on the live versions.  *shrugs*

Amen!  The continuum section of the intro is an absolute throwaway.  The steel guitar section is better, solely because it introduces the main theme of the song, but it's nothing to write home about.  For me, the song doesn't really start until the synth solo at the end of Medicate, and everything from there to the end is perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on September 30, 2019, 12:23:11 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on September 30, 2019, 11:57:13 AM
For me, the song doesn't really start until the synth solo at the end of Medicate, and everything from there to the end is perfect.

I don't disagree...

The first half is really cool, but I have to be in the right mood for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on September 30, 2019, 01:35:13 PM
Hmm, I love to watch the Score version - the best keyboard solo (the intro) I have watched.  Amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 05:35:21 PM
I actually don't mind the ambient intro. It sets the atmosphere really well.

I'd argue that the first half the song is way better actually. It's way more emotional & less shred-focussed.

In my opinion, Full Circle/Intervals exists primarily as the tension to Razor's Edge's release, so it makes no sense to me why people would want to skip almost everything before that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on October 01, 2019, 12:20:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.

Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 07:54:45 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 01, 2019, 12:20:46 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 02:39:19 AM
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.

Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.

It's right up there for me as well.  Definitely top 3.  Every single section and structural element relates to the overall theme so cleverly and on so many different levels.  Just a brilliant song all around.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 01, 2019, 08:02:01 AM
I like Octavarium overall but its the first of the flawed classic DT songs to me.  The vocal melodies just don't stand up to their previous work, the styx like keyboard solo is bizarrely long, and its one of their most derivative songs.

With all that said, I still enjoy it and play it often but I would never put it in my top 10 or even top 15 DT songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 08:07:55 AM
I've never thought of equating "too perfect" with being a flaw.  But you may be onto something.  If a song is so perfect that you just don't feel worthy to listen to it, is that a flaw?  :justjen
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 01, 2019, 08:09:16 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 01, 2019, 08:10:18 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 08:07:55 AM
I've never thought of equating "too perfect" with being a flaw.  But you may be onto something.  If a song is so perfect that you just don't feel worthy to listen to it, is that a flaw?  :justjen interesting observation
there is no such thing as too perfect (IMHO anyway)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: lovethedrake on October 01, 2019, 08:09:16 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 

Those are my top 2 songs on the album right now.  It's interesting how my opinion has changed.  I still love the album from start to finish, and I now really like the songs that didn't first grab me.  But my top 3 has changed.  Initially, I think my top 3 were At Wit's End, Paralyzed, and Room 137.  At Wit's End has stayed, but the other 2 songs in my top 3 would now be Out of Reach (a DT ballad in the top 3???) and S2N. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 01, 2019, 08:20:55 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: lovethedrake on October 01, 2019, 08:09:16 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on September 25, 2019, 04:55:30 PM
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 

Those are my top 2 songs on the album right now.  It's interesting how my opinion has changed.  I still love the album from start to finish, and I now really like the songs that didn't first grab me.  But my top 3 has changed.  Initially, I think my top 3 were At Wit's End, Paralyzed, and Room 137.  At Wit's End has stayed, but the other 2 songs in my top 3 would now be Out of Reach (a DT ballad in the top 3???) and S2N.
I'm not too surprised about OOR being in your top tier, because it's my favourite on the album as well :D (that one and PBD, I skip all the others)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 01, 2019, 10:16:00 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on September 30, 2019, 05:35:21 PM
I actually don't mind the ambient intro. It sets the atmosphere really well.

I'd argue that the first half the song is way better actually. It's way more emotional & less shred-focussed.

In my opinion, Full Circle/Intervals exists primarily as the tension to Razor's Edge's release, so it makes no sense to me why people would want to skip almost everything before that.

"Better" is entirely subjective.  I get that some folks like the intro, and that's just great.  I think it's boring as heck.  I think Someone Like Him and Medicate are good but not great.  I think Full Circle is epic.  I love the lyrical playfulness.  I love how the first part of it's in 7 and the second is in 5.  The instrumental section falls on the good side of the "just enough v. too much shred" continuum.  Intervals is cool, and Razor's Edge is a great way to end it.  If the song had only the steel guitar section of the intro and only one of Someone Like Him and Medicate, it would, IMO make for a better song, and that's saying something given that it's easily a top 10, if not top 5, DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 01, 2019, 10:37:35 AM
It's not that any moment, any given occasion, I'm up for listening the 5 minutes intro of Octavarium, but it serves its purpouse in setting the tone. With the understandable exception of the little slowling down of Intervals, the song is basically a crescendo of intensity from start to finish. The almost nothingness of the intro. The very slow part of Someone Like Him. The still slow, but more upbeat Medicate Me. The "fast" part that leads into the crazy Full Circle (don't care what anyone says about the lyrics, all the tie ins are brilliant and awesome). The ever so slightly calm of Intervals that explodes into the Trapped inside this Octavarium section, the pinnacle of the tension built up since the beginning.... and then the explosion into the dramatic, bombastic and amazing finale of Razor's Edge whose ending is the definition of an eargasm.

As I said it's not that every time I'm up for the intro, and I do too think that the solo sections before and after Full Circle are slightly a bit on the wanky side, but all in all I consider Octavarium a damn masterpiece from start to finish  :metal :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 01, 2019, 10:44:51 AM
8V's beginning freaking RULES
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 01, 2019, 11:04:17 AM
Still a top 5 DT song imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 01, 2019, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 01, 2019, 12:20:46 AM
Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.
Is that controversial?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on October 01, 2019, 11:20:56 AM
I've got no problems with the intro. Sets the tone and atmosphere of the track perfectly and doesn't overstay its welcome either IMO. Moving from it to the next section and then so on makes 8V progress and evolve very organically which I really love too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 01, 2019, 11:39:17 AM
I have no issue with the intro in terms of the purpose it serves for the song, however, I personally just think the vocal melodies sound a bit contrived and weak.     I don't skip through them though, I still enjoy the song as a whole but if I am comparing it to what I consider "classic" DT songs (Fatal Tragedy, Learning to Live, Metropolis, SDOIT, Change of Seasons etc) I just don't think it lives up to the billing.   A matter of taste for me really but it's the first attempt at an epic from them that felt a bit contrived and tired.   Still a good DT song and compared to most bands a masterpiece.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.


Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:27:44 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Well, as the thread states, it's just my opinion.  And your's is also an opinion.  And because they are both subjective, they both have equal merit.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
Well, maybe.  But I quoted Luke Skywalker, so...

But here's my more detailed response to your points:

1.  I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of DT's catalog.  But that said, it's still a great song. 
2.  The lyrics are good.  But that's about it.  And they aren't really JP's.  At least, they aren't a "JP original."  He took the works of the manga that the story came from, and just retooled them so they worked for the song. 
3.  SC and BCSL are the only DT albums that I don't generally listen to in full and have "re-cut" them.  As part of my abbreviated SC, I start it off with ITPOE as a whole song rather than in two parts bookending the album.  So I do agree that the best listening experience is the entire thing as one piece.  But that said, I would hardly call splitting it a "mistake."  I fully get why that creative choice was made, and I think it works just fine in context of the album--especially on the heels of the previous three albums that ended with a mega-epic (Six Degrees), an epic (TOT), and a mega-epic (Octavarium).  They just really felt like they needed to do something other than having a 20+ minute song be the closer.  At the time, it felt right.  And it made for an interesting and different listening experience.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on October 01, 2019, 04:36:40 PM
I personally think Octavarium is overrated. I've never liked it.  The intro is too long, the song sounds "cut and pasted", with no good transitions in between the songs. I do not enjoy the lyrics since they are a bit cheesy and forced (especially the Sailing on the Seven Seas section). The only section I enjoy is the Medicate Me part (both musically and lyrically).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on October 01, 2019, 05:04:40 PM
Oh yeah, that continuum/slide intro seems to go on forever, and if you're listening to the album at lower volumes, it's barely there
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 01, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:30:56 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 01, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.

It was great that Pt1 was included on this tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 02, 2019, 08:00:04 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
Well, maybe.  But I quoted Luke Skywalker, so...

But here's my more detailed response to your points:

1.  I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of DT's catalog.  But that said, it's still a great song. 
2.  The lyrics are good.  But that's about it.  And they aren't really JP's.  At least, they aren't a "JP original."  He took the works of the manga that the story came from, and just retooled them so they worked for the song. 
3.  SC and BCSL are the only DT albums that I don't generally listen to in full and have "re-cut" them.  As part of my abbreviated SC, I start it off with ITPOE as a whole song rather than in two parts bookending the album.  So I do agree that the best listening experience is the entire thing as one piece.  But that said, I would hardly call splitting it a "mistake."  I fully get why that creative choice was made, and I think it works just fine in context of the album--especially on the heels of the previous three albums that ended with a mega-epic (Six Degrees), an epic (TOT), and a mega-epic (Octavarium).  They just really felt like they needed to do something other than having a 20+ minute song be the closer.  At the time, it felt right.  And it made for an interesting and different listening experience.

1. I know there are plenty of fans on here that feel that same way, and that's cool.  Which is why I labeled it as a controversial opinon.
2. I know JP got it from a manga, but that is perhaps why I think the lyrics/story are so good.  I have noticed that other stories JP has told that I like a lot also came from outside material. But I also feel the same way with other bands as well such as Metallica and Iron Maiden.  It's definately a "me" thing.
3. I agree that SC and BCSL are somewhat inconsistant albums, and I do see why the band decided to split up the song, I just don't think they should have done it, or atleast released an uncut version of the song with the album as a download or something.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on October 02, 2019, 08:15:52 AM
Quote from: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:30:56 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 01, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 01, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.

It was great that Pt1 was included on this tour.

It really translated well in a live setting. The intro is phenomenal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 02, 2019, 08:26:58 AM
I actually don't love either part of  ITPOE, however, a big reason for that is that I hate the production on SC. 

I thought ITPOE was absolutely killer live though and I am super excited to have seen it because I don't think I attended the SC tour.

It was actually one of the highlights of the first set to me.  Goes to show how important production is for a listening experience.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 02, 2019, 11:15:58 AM
Quote from: lovethedrake on October 02, 2019, 08:26:58 AM
I actually don't love either part of  ITPOE, however, a big reason for that is that I hate the production on SC. 

I thought ITPOE was absolutely killer live though and I am super excited to have seen it because I don't think I attended the SC tour.

It was actually one of the highlights of the first set to me.  Goes to show how important production is for a listening experience.

I think that is very true.  The production can make or break a song/album for some people.

I haven't ever seen ItPoE live, but I would sure love to.  Maybe one day.  From what you and some of the others have said, it sounds like I'm really missing out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on October 02, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.

The Last Jedi.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 02, 2019, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.
bosky was paraphrasing.  The actual quote went:

"Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on October 02, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 02, 2019, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 02, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.

I could be mistaken, but I recall a post many years ago at the old MP forum in which someone walked through the lyrics for ITPOE and matched them up to particular panels from the comic book (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").  Someone (maybe the same person) did the same thing with some of the lyrics of SDOIT.  It really seemed like plagiarism to me, and I always wondered whether the rights owners of the source material ever made anything of it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 03, 2019, 01:06:53 AM
Quote from: pg1067 link=topic=35056.msg2588070#msg2588070 (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").
[/quote

Almost there, it's "mangia". To eat is "mangiare", I eat is "Io mangio", "mangia" could be seen as a suggestion. "The dish is ready, come on, eat!" = "Il piatto è pronto, mangia".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 03, 2019, 06:35:33 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 02, 2019, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 02, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.

I could be mistaken, but I recall a post many years ago at the old MP forum in which someone walked through the lyrics for ITPOE and matched them up to particular panels from the comic book (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").  Someone (maybe the same person) did the same thing with some of the lyrics of SDOIT.  It really seemed like plagiarism to me, and I always wondered whether the rights owners of the source material ever made anything of it.

Yup, I always think of that post when ITPOE comes on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 03, 2019, 10:47:08 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 03, 2019, 01:06:53 AM
Almost there, it's "mangia". To eat is "mangiare", I eat is "Io mangio", "mangia" could be seen as a suggestion. "The dish is ready, come on, eat!" = "Il piatto è pronto, mangia".

I've only ever heard it used in the suggestion form (very uncommonly at Italian restaurants here in California):  someone puts out some food and says, "mangia!"  It's possible I heard it otherwise when I visited Firenze 18 years ago, but I don't recall that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 03, 2019, 11:04:52 AM
Another one from me: We would have ended up with a different fourth album (different from FII anyway) had Jordan joined the band right away (we all know why he didn't and all that) I'd have preferred him in the band earlier than 1998.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 12:19:44 PM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.
I don't remember the specific parts.  bouttocrash, one of our longtime members here, found a psychology textbook or something that had some passages that were virtually identical.  She posted pics for proof, so it wasn't just hearsay.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 03, 2019, 12:55:11 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 12:19:44 PM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.
I don't remember the specific parts.  bouttocrash, one of our longtime members here, found a psychology textbook or something that had some passages that were virtually identical.  She posted pics for proof, so it wasn't just hearsay.

My recollection is that it was the Petrucci sections -- particularly the stuff in ATC and LT about a girl from a small midwestern town who dresses in black and in SS about the boy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.

No, I don't think so.  I've only ever heard him be pretty open about that fact.  In fact, I remember him saying that the lyrics came from a manga before anyone had posted the Priest connection.

As far as SDOIT, I don't think anyone has ever asked them about it.  But, yeah, some of the parts of the title track were taken from some case studies in a psychology text. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on October 04, 2019, 09:15:12 AM
Petrucci needs to cut his hair. The beard isn’t even that bad but that haaaaaair. Sorry, I said it.

The band could have easily financed an entire Astonishing DVD with orchestra just by dipping into their Just For Men budget. If they all spent a little less time straightening their hair they probably could have had a new album out by now.

Really at this point only Myung should be rocking the long hair.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 04, 2019, 09:44:59 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.

No, I don't think so.  I've only ever heard him be pretty open about that fact.  In fact, I remember him saying that the lyrics came from a manga before anyone had posted the Priest connection.

As far as SDOIT, I don't think anyone has ever asked them about it.  But, yeah, some of the parts of the title track were taken from some case studies in a psychology text.

Ah OK thanks, I only remember from what was in that thread probably. The word for word lifting was a bummer, as I felt that album was already a low point creatively (ironically except for ITPOE itself) but have warmed up to in the years since.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 11:29:50 AM
Why is it a bummer?  ???
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 04, 2019, 11:54:16 AM
I just prefer “inspired by” over copied, unless there’s direct attribution given to the original author(s)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
To me, it doesn't matter much.  There isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) any negative connotation to "copied" in this context.  The song and lyrics as a whole were absolutely "inspired by" the manga.  And some lines of the lyrics were directly "copied" from the source material.  That's all fine, and has been custom in the music industry for a very long time (probably ever since there was a music industry).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 04, 2019, 12:13:36 PM
Probably. Not how I would have gone about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 04, 2019, 12:27:47 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
To me, it doesn't matter much.  There isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) any negative connotation to "copied" in this context.  The song and lyrics as a whole were absolutely "inspired by" the manga.  And some lines of the lyrics were directly "copied" from the source material.  That's all fine, and has been custom in the music industry for a very long time (probably ever since there was a music industry).

I tend to agree with "NoFred."  I don't really like ITPOE (and don't read comic books), so that's less of a big deal for me, but it matters a little on SDOIT, which I love every bit of except for Goodnight Kiss, which I only like a lot.  Copying word for word is sometimes referred to as copyright infringement.  If you're going to do that, I tend to think there should at least be some acknowledgment in the liner notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 01:19:28 PM
I mentioned this in the past when it was brought up, but that may have been before you were active here.  You may be correct in terms of the letter of the law.  But custom and practice in the industry is that, when a work of music quotes a work of literature, it is almost never done that way and, almost always, nobody cares.  Led Zep quotes lines from Tolkien, and last I heard, there is no direct acknowledgement in the liner notes.  Or Bowie (Orwell).  Or Katie Perry (Kerouac).  Or Kate Bush (Bronte).  Or the Beatles.  Or Maiden.  And on and on.  It just isn't really a thing.

Now, that's different from a band ripping off another musician's lyrics or music and trying to pass it off as their own.  That sort of thing obviously IS a big deal.  But that is a very different thing, even if it may feel similar in many respects.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on October 04, 2019, 01:39:58 PM
I agree that unacknowledged word-for-word copying (or near to it) is a bummer. Total bummer to realise that the author of something you love openly credited someone else's work to themselves. Whoever it is. Maiden, Zep or DT. It materially reduces their creative input into the work in question and their integrity.

I was far from delighted with the recent Maiden case. The ITPOE was acknowledged by JP but still isn't great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 01:50:48 PM
Well, I guess you are entitled to feel how you feel.  :dunno:  But I find no reason to have to manufacture reasons to enjoy something less.  If it is enjoyable, it is enjoyable whether the artist was inspired by another work or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 04, 2019, 02:20:45 PM
Well I have the song in my DT top 10 (was my first post here actually...) so not enjoying any less.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on October 04, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
I only enjoy Hallowed Be Thy Name and ITPOE a little less. But I think less of both parties as artists because of the copying. That's not manufacturing a reason to enjoy something less. We're all entitled to our perspectives. Mine is that my simple admiration of a creative process is lessened for knowing that the artists didn't write what they claimed they did by their copyright assertions. It's hardly a small thing. I wouldn't expect to keep a qualification if it were discovered i copied a significant part of it from somewhere else. Or an athletics award if I failed a drug test.

We can disagree about the degree of significance but it is dishonest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 04:52:42 PM
Two MAJOR flaws in what you just posted:

First, the DT example and the Maiden example you posted are not equivalent.  At all.  Maiden took somebody else's music and lyrics (I think it was both, right?) and tried to pass them off as their own.  Not cool.  DT, in contrast, took a work from a completely different medium and turned it into a song, and did not try to hide what they were doing, any more than they have tried to hide their musical influences.  There is a reason that when bands do what Maiden did, you often see legal action, but when bands do what DT did, you don't. 

Second, what DT did is not even in the realm of dishonesty.  Dishonesty, by definition, entails an intent to deceive.  There is no such intent here (unless you know something the rest of us don't).  Yeah, the degree to which it bothers you is subjective.  Whether or not it is dishonest isn't.  There is no dishonesty involved.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on October 05, 2019, 12:58:58 AM
Oh, yeah. I agree completely that they're in a different league. What Maiden did was terrible and did genuinely upset me.

I was only slightly bothered by ITPOE and Priest. But it's been copied so closely that it's basically a metal song version of the comic. And should have been acknowledged in the booklet notes just like Maiden (ironically) did with TROTAM and Revelations.

Yes, JP talked about Priest in interviews after the album came out, but it was disappointing as I was already enjoying the song, thinking it was cool, and thinking the band came up with it on their own - because that's how it was presented in the booklet. There was no acknowledgement that it was paraphrasing the text of a comic and to leave that out is misleading. Deliberate omission is also dishonest, imo. In this case, it's not huge like Maiden, but it's there.

Hey, I know it's a strong word, and I'm not comfortable with it either. I love and respect the band, but just a line in the lyric book would have been cooler.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 05, 2019, 01:34:05 AM
It depends case for case I guess, but I assume that most lyricists who pay homage, assume that someone, somewhere, knows the subject, and will realize the connection.

Bruce Dickinson has a song called A Tyranny of Souls whose first stanza is *entirely* and *precisely* the first lines of MacBeth, it's not indicated anywhere in the booklet. I know, "everyone" know Shakespeare while an obscure japanese manga is harder to identify, thus with more people that could assume the lyrics are entirely original, but I don't think copying words from literature or other media in songs is that uncommon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on October 05, 2019, 06:49:05 AM
I think using and referencing ancient religious texts and literary canon is very different. Those sets of words have become widely understood standards, akin to common expressions or phrases.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on October 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM
I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 06, 2019, 03:19:00 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on October 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM
I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.

Ditto. I've been lucky to have seen them many times in 20 years, I've heard basically everything I wanted to hear for them, for a change and for the novelty of it I wouldn't mind at all to hear it live. It's not even 5 minutes if I remember correctly, it's not that a bigass epic has to be sacrificed to play that song.

And for what it is, it's actually cool, nothing mindblowing but it's a nice rocking tune. Portnoy deemed it a "failed experiment", but to me the experiment of having someone external making a song more concise and catchy succeded. Again, it's not the best "easy prog" song ever written, but it does its job.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on October 06, 2019, 07:24:57 AM
It just sounded odd live before, because they had Portnoy sing lead and Labrie sing harmony in the choruses. They should give it another go :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 06, 2019, 07:34:45 AM
Eh, they have way too many songs that are overdue to get played again to waste five minutes playing what most agree is one of their worst songs (if not THE worst).  That chorus is just so...not good. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 06, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on October 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM
I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.

Yep, I'd take this song over a lot of other DT songs imo. Gets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on October 06, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Well, it's not like the rest of the band came forward praising it. Not a single band member has talked about it in the last ten years. I think JP might like it, JLB and JM are most likely indifferent toward the song, and JR and MM have nothing to do with it. Some of the B-sides from Falling into infinity have a better chance of returning to the set list than You not me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 06, 2019, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on October 06, 2019, 12:20:54 PM
Ah yes, “You Not Me” with the Desmond Child sing-a-long chorus that helped *almost* kill any momentum the band had going dead in its tracks, hated by both the band and the fans alike, its only redeeming quality is that it refocused the band to move away from 90s alternative dreck and back to prog greatness with SFAM. 

Yeah…probably not going to show up on a setlist anytime soon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on October 06, 2019, 12:34:52 PM
Yeah. I really like it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 06, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 06, 2019, 08:39:10 PM
I didn’t know enough then and I don’t know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 07, 2019, 03:30:48 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 06, 2019, 08:39:10 PM
I didn’t know enough then and I don’t know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)
they're both as non-DT as can be though IMHO (and I don't listen to either of them), but considering your opinion (which I respect), they both are "masterpieces", masterpieces at not being typical DT pieces if you get my drift
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on October 07, 2019, 06:10:37 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 06, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.

I’m the opposite. I think YNM is an excellent hard rock song while YOM is very unremarkable. There’s no wasted space in YNM while YOM has some unnecessary parts. Plus the chorus on Not is way better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 07, 2019, 06:29:20 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 07, 2019, 06:10:37 AM
Plus the chorus on Not is way better.

AKA "the reason they got Desmond Child in the first place".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 07, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 07, 2019, 03:30:48 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 06, 2019, 08:39:10 PM
I didn’t know enough then and I don’t know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)
they're both as non-DT as can be though IMHO (and I don't listen to either of them), but considering your opinion (which I respect), they both are "masterpieces", masterpieces at not being typical DT pieces if you get my drift
Lol yeah being non-DT was the “masterpiece” qualifier there, and between the two I like JLMB by a wide margin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on October 07, 2019, 06:47:57 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on October 06, 2019, 12:20:54 PM
Ah yes, “You Not Me” with the Desmond Child sing-a-long chorus that helped *almost* kill any momentum the band had going dead in its tracks, hated by both the band and the fans alike, its only redeeming quality is that it refocused the band to move away from 90s alternative dreck and back to prog greatness with SFAM. 

Yeah…probably not going to show up on a setlist anytime soon.

Hence the “controversial opinion”
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 07:04:32 AM
I don’t find YNM as bad as some people say it is, it just isn’t a very good song compared to the rest of the catalog (and this applies to most of FII anyway). Whether it should be included back on the setlists or not, I think not. Just listen to the few live versions available online and James sounds like he ‘s having a hard time with it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on October 07, 2019, 07:37:27 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 07:04:32 AM
I don’t find YNM as bad as some people say it is, it just isn’t a very good song compared to the rest of the catalog (and this applies to most of FII anyway). Whether it should be included back on the setlists or not, I think not. Just listen to the few live versions available online and James sounds like he ‘s having a hard time with it.

During a time when he was struggling with a lot of songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 07:54:22 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
Gets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 07, 2019, 08:33:57 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 07:54:22 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
Gets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.
I actually heard BMS live during one of the concerts I attended on the 6D tour in 2002 (can't remember which one, but it was the "pre-excised" version, meaning what we now know as Hell's Kitchen was actually part of the piece making it 10 minutes long or thereabouts) I've never heard them play You Not Me live (and I've seen them 9 times so far, 3 times with MM, 6 times with MP)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ruba on October 07, 2019, 09:31:28 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 07:54:22 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
Gets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.

It was played on the 30th anniversary tour so not that long ago. I saw them play it and I would've been really surprised to see it, but a friend I went to the show with spoiled that beforehand. I actually like the song, but I would've preferred them playing Lines in the Sand by a large margin.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 07, 2019, 10:57:59 AM
Not sure that it's controversial, but John Myung definitely doesn't play his fretless bass or the Chapman Stick on nearly enough songs, and they should both be incorporated on the next album.

I told him that, too.  Which means nothing will come of it lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 07, 2019, 11:06:58 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 07, 2019, 06:10:37 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 06, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.

I’m the opposite. I think YNM is an excellent hard rock song while YOM is very unremarkable. There’s no wasted space in YNM while YOM has some unnecessary parts. Plus the chorus on Not is way better.

I think YNM is vastly superior to YOM.  I also YNM isn't even close to DT's worst song.  IMO, it's in the top half of songs on FII.  That said, of the 36 DT album tracks I've yet to hear live, YNM isn't particular high on the list of those I'd like to hear.

In fact, of the songs I haven't heard live (and excluding those on DOT), the only ones I really hope will end up in a set list some day are Anna Lee, most of SDOIT (I've only heard SS, ATCR and LT/GF), Vacant and Wither.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 07, 2019, 01:49:55 PM
IMO the songs that DT has released that I consider to be "beneath them":

You Not Me
Burning My soul
Just let me breathe
I walk beside you
Build me up break me down
Hymn of a Thousand Voices

So count me in the "please never play you not me because it's one of your worst songs" category.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 07, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 07, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.

If you don’t have ONW closing an abridged version of TA, you’re doing it wrong :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 07, 2019, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 07, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.

If you don’t have ONW closing an abridged version of TA, you’re doing it wrong :P

I don't. It ends better with Hymn. The whole point of making an Abridged version was to trim the fat.

Our New World doesn't even feel like part of the story. Having Our New World close The Astonishing is like having Viper King come on after PBD.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 04:07:57 PM
No, it's not quite that awesome.  But it is still pretty good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 07, 2019, 04:11:24 PM
Well my point was that both songs feel totally unrelated musically to what comes before it.

And I love Viper King!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 07, 2019, 04:12:55 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is kinda bad, but the story of TA doesn't really make sense without it, so I kinda have to leave it on my abridged CD. :-\

Our New World is much better though, & would've closed the album perfectly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 08, 2019, 01:06:34 AM
Astonishing is the perfect closing for The Astonishing.

Seriously, I know the album isn't everyone's cup of tea, but as a standalone song... is there really that much difference between the final section of the song, the "People can you hear us" section, and Grand Finale from Six Degrees, Surrender, Trust & Passion from Illumination Theory or Salvation from In the Presence of Enemies? they're all bombastic and larger than life closures to the respective albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 08, 2019, 02:16:07 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2019, 01:06:34 AM
Astonishing is the perfect closing for The Astonishing.

Seriously, I know the album isn't everyone's cup of tea, but as a standalone song... is there really that much difference between the final section of the song, the "People can you hear us" section, and Grand Finale from Six Degrees, Surrender, Trust & Passion from Illumination Theory or Salvation from In the Presence of Enemies? they're all bombastic and larger than life closures to the respective albums.

I guess not, but context matters. SDOIT, ITPOE & IT had a fuck-ton of exciting & dramatic moments that had their build-ups felt like they meant something. In Astonishing on the other hand, the entire song is constructed on semi-triumphant reprises (many of which have already been played to death on the earlier album tracks), so the "People can you hear us" doesn't have nearly the same effect as it would if (hypothetically) it were at the end of a 20-minute epic whose previous movements were captivating in any way.

It'd be like if you played Razor's Edge out of context after The Answer Lies Within. It just wouldn't work because there'd be no tension to resolve from.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 08, 2019, 04:00:56 AM
Oh well, I can see your point musically, but I was considering Astonishing the song in the context of the entire album, and how it serves as a big finale - I'm happy that it ends like that and not with Our New World or even the somehow triumphant, but less intense, Hymn of a 1000 Voices.

I know the song is made up of reprises from other temes of the album, but the ending is a cool and bombastic reprise. After all also Gran Finale from Six Degrees ends with the main theme (wanna know how a 42 minute songs end? you basically already know 6 minutes in, as the Overture ends), and Razor's Edge eargasmic solo follows Someone Like Him's melody, so I'm happy with the way Astonishing ends even if the song itself is nothing new and doesn't present, within the standalone song, much tension to serve a contrast to the eventual ending.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 08, 2019, 07:53:43 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous during each reprise.  Perfect.

Exactly
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ZirconBlue on October 08, 2019, 08:09:14 AM


Quote from: MirrorMask on October 05, 2019, 01:34:05 AM
It depends case for case I guess, but I assume that most lyricists who pay homage, assume that someone, somewhere, knows the subject, and will realize the connection.

Bruce Dickinson has a song called A Tyranny of Souls whose first stanza is *entirely* and *precisely* the first lines of MacBeth, it's not indicated anywhere in the booklet. I know, "everyone" know Shakespeare while an obscure japanese manga is harder to identify, thus with more people that could assume the lyrics are entirely original, but I don't think copying words from literature or other media in songs is that uncommon.



A nitpick:  Priest is a Korean comic (manhwa), not Japanese.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 08, 2019, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.
and a logical ending too, musically speaking, because the motifs of every character get a reprise. Standard procedure in musical theatre. (I'd say it worked even better live too, I've seen TA live and I liked it quite a bit more than the album)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 08, 2019, 04:14:48 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.

Indeed. We were discussing ONW as the closer because we were talking about an abridged version of the album, but Astonishing works quite well as a musical finale.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 04:36:24 PM
I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 09, 2019, 04:09:18 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 04:36:24 PM
I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy.
ah so the promo copy was shortened then?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 09, 2019, 07:55:03 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 09, 2019, 04:09:18 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 04:36:24 PM
I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy.
ah so the promo copy was shortened then?

Yes.  As I remember, the promo was along the lines of:
-Descent of the NOMACS
-Dystopian Overture
-The Gift of Music
-Lord Nefaryus
-A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come (as a single track)
-Chosen
-Moment of Betrayal
-Our New World

There might have been another song or two, but that is mainly it (it was digital, and I no longer have the download, so I don't remember for certain).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2019, 08:04:13 AM
I normally begin Disc 2 with Moment of Betrayal, and only listen to 2285 Entr'acte as a coda following Astonishing.  Not saying that is the best way, but it works for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 09, 2019, 08:07:30 AM
Really?  That's interesting because, to me, Moment of Betrayal loses a LOT when not preceded by 2285 Entr'acte.  It just has so much more power when following the instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2019, 08:10:48 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 09, 2019, 08:07:30 AM
Really?  That's interesting because, to me, Moment of Betrayal loses a LOT when not preceded by 2285 Entr'acte.  It just has so much more power when following the instrumental.
*shrugs* I don't feel like that lack of power is a bad thing.  Like I said, it works for me.

Just listen to Astonishing and 2285 Entr'acte back to back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 09, 2019, 08:11:25 AM
In my abridged version I omitted the entirety of the Entr'Acte and the intro of Moment of Betrayal, so when you finish The Road to Revolution, it immediately kicks off again with the "real" beginning of Betrayal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 09, 2019, 09:19:39 AM
I never took the time to make an abridged copy, but found it a much easier listen on random - I never got into the story or musical themes and going random keeps things interesting for the long runtime.

I really like the progression of nomac tracks though, I would keep a couple of them in an abridged version.

Would also love to see this brought back as a longer medley in their sets.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 09, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
I am glad to see TA getting some love! I loved from the git-go and still come back to listening quite frequently but I have a 30 minute commute so I can listen to it as it's meant to be listened. I grew up in the days of Jesus Christ Superstar, Paint your Wagon and Godspell so I knew this album was going require a different approach than their typical  :metal album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 09, 2019, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 09, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
I am glad to see TA getting some love! I loved from the git-go and still come back to listening quite frequently but I have a 30 minute commute so I can listen to it as it's meant to be listened. I grew up in the days of Jesus Christ Superstar, Paint your Wagon and Godspell so I knew this album was going require a different approach than their typical  :metal album.

Mee too, I love that album  :metal.  It's very musically diverse and melodically rich.  My hope is that in 10 years, it will be looked back on with fondness by most fans.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 11, 2019, 03:35:58 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.


Thats the thing. The Astonishing is meant to be listened to as a broadway/musical soundtrack. Everytime I listen to it I can picture the scenery, the characters acting their roles. Like the Final Battle between Arhys and Daryus, and in Hymn Of A Thousand voices the crowd slowly gathering to Heavens Cove after hearing Gabriels Scream.

Thats why I enjoy The Astonishing and hope one day to get a musical version of it. Even if it's Ayreon style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 11, 2019, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 11, 2019, 03:35:58 PM
Thats why I enjoy The Astonishing and hope one day to get a musical version of it. Even if it's Ayreon style.

That'd be really cool!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on October 11, 2019, 10:01:50 PM
What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 11, 2019, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: PetFish on October 11, 2019, 10:01:50 PM
What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 12, 2019, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 11, 2019, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: PetFish on October 11, 2019, 10:01:50 PM
What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.

Did you see the remake of Jesus Christ Super last year with John Legend? It had a live band on stage. Is that what your talking about?

BTW, that was a bad ass live TV opera and I couldn't help but think that it should be Dream Theater playing that music with JLB as the part of Jesus.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 13, 2019, 01:02:39 PM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 12, 2019, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 11, 2019, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: PetFish on October 11, 2019, 10:01:50 PM
What's "Ayreon Style"?  Asking for a friend.

Its more having a Live band on stage. Instead of an Orchestra and band where they usually are in the pit.

Did you see the remake of Jesus Christ Super last year with John Legend? It had a live band on stage. Is that what your talking about?

BTW, that was a bad ass live TV opera and I couldn't help but think that it should be Dream Theater playing that music with JLB as the part of Jesus.

Yes I have seen it. It was great.

Im talking more how The Theater Equation was executed.

But It would be awesome if they could do a full production one off live show of the album maybe a couple nights.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Bringing in both James, Jordan and MM were the best decisions the band has made and they can consider themselves to be very lucky having these 3 people being a part of their ranks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on October 13, 2019, 07:58:24 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 13, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Bringing in both James, Jordan and MM were the best decisions the band has made and they can consider themselves to be very lucky having these 3 people being a part of their ranks.

Is this controversial? I have my qualms with Mangini and the direction they’ve taken the past 3 albums but I’d say I’m in the small majority with that on this forum, and it’s hard to argue that band isn’t in a happier place the past few years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 13, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
Right. That's not controversial at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 13, 2019, 09:30:13 PM
I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 13, 2019, 09:43:31 PM
It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 14, 2019, 07:41:58 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 13, 2019, 09:43:31 PM
It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.
It's worth saying that we were pretty close to getting straight to JR instead. I wonder how different the following releases would have been - not just the EP and FII, but Scenes too, seeing how Derek was in the room jamming with them and working on the demo that became Scenes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 14, 2019, 08:48:55 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 13, 2019, 09:30:13 PM
I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well.

'Great'  is a tad generous. He was serviceable. He Played his role and filled a gap but were he 'great' they'd not have still had that bug to go and get Jordan the second they knew he'd say yes. There's nothing he provided that was awe inspiring....his parts always fit with the sound and did their job but there's nothing that jumps out to me that could categorize his time with the band as 'great'.

In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 08:54:24 AM
There was a thread here sometime ago about your least favorite 3 album stretch. I'll start off by saying that I love these 3 albums and think each is a fantastic piece of work by the band and I'm not saying this just to be controversial.

So here it goes..........

















My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................



































I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)








Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 14, 2019, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 14, 2019, 08:48:55 AM
when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find.
Maybe it's because I listened to more Kevin Moore bootlegs so I had the opportunity to catch more mistakes, but out of the two, I think Kevin is sloppier! Derek does get loosey goosey with the solos, but out of the two, I think Kev is the one that made more mistakes.

Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 08:54:24 AM
My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)
Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on October 14, 2019, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 14, 2019, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 08:54:24 AM
My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)
Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?


Woah...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 14, 2019, 11:52:01 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 14, 2019, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 08:54:24 AM
My least favorite 3 album stretch is..................................
I&W, Awake and FII...............(Turns and runs.....)
Close the thread, we finally got a controversial opinion!
Why? Meh on two out of three, or just really hate one of the three?
I think there's a few things you can ASSume from his comment. He prefers WDaDU to FII and thinks that SFaM and SDoIT are better than IaW and Awake. And either he really really hates FII or he thinks the majority of the rest of DT's catalog is better than IaW and Awake. How far am I off hunnus?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 12:06:37 PM
OK - here's the dealeo ya'll:

I LOVE all three pieces of work! I&W is  classic and I admire a progressive metal band using a saxophone in their defining album. But Awake seemed "forced" to me, so much so, that fans thought they replaced the singer. I think it was MP who said that you have your entire life to record your first album but after that.....(I can't remember what the rest of the quote was).

FII - I think that DS is an awesome keyboardist but he has even said that he thinks of himself as a guitarist on keyboards so I don't think that's what JP or even MP had in mind for the long term vision of DT. I think they wanted more of the soundscape that JR could provide. Besides, I always thought that DS was a pretty cocky individual and I think he is still butt hurt from being let go from the band and still shows it.

Regardless of my personal feelings, I think Awake and FII fall short of what I think of the very definition of what Dream Theater is as a band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 14, 2019, 12:14:33 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 13, 2019, 09:43:31 PM
It isn't often a band can make each replacement an upgrade. Moore --> Sherinian was a drop-off, but considering the position Moore put them in with his abrupt departure, and how they were a bit aimless creatively post-Awake, the guys did an admirable job.

I don't think each replacement was necessarily an upgrade, just that they did a great job each time.

Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 14, 2019, 08:48:55 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 13, 2019, 09:30:13 PM
I think the band has done a great job with each replacement.  Even though Sherinian was only around for one EP and one studio album, he did a great job in his short time with the band as well.

'Great'  is a tad generous. He was serviceable. He Played his role and filled a gap but were he 'great' they'd not have still had that bug to go and get Jordan the second they knew he'd say yes. There's nothing he provided that was awe inspiring....his parts always fit with the sound and did their job but there's nothing that jumps out to me that could categorize his time with the band as 'great'.

In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 

I was thinking more along the lines of studio work rather than live, but in the studio, I do think he did a great job overall.  His work on A Change of Seasons is tremendous, the lead keyboard line that kicks off Lines in the Sand is still one of the most awesome things in the entire DT catalogue, and Trial of Tears might contain the best keyboard solo in a DT song.  Regardless of what a knob he has been the last few years :P, I will give him his due for his work with the band. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 14, 2019, 12:17:48 PM
Derek was always a step down for the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 14, 2019, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2019, 12:14:33 PM
I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 
I think this sums it up pretty well, but just to add to it: DS had a musical background that was a bit more rock n roll than what they were looking for. They wanted someone who had more of a prog background like KM had. So the musical style or direction did play a part. But then in terms of personality, in comparison to the rest of the guys, DS was the odd man out too, being single as opposed to being married like the rest of the guys. So when JR was willing to join, they made the move, not only because he was their first original choice to replace KM, but also because he fit better into what they envisioned for their keyboardist and in general as a member of DT.
 
 
Quote from: TAC on October 14, 2019, 12:17:48 PM
Derek was always a step down for the band.
I disagree - I think he brought something new and fresh to the band when he joined. In listening back to the old bootlegs from his time with the band, I prefer his stand-alone solos to those of JR's as well as his lead sound. And I like that he had more of a guitarist's mindset - it was definitely something different from what came before. It's a shame that he never got to do a second album with the band - it would be interesting to see what would have developed, be it SFaM or something else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 14, 2019, 12:28:38 PM
I have a hard time listening to boots from the FII Era. Just feels like DT's gawky pre teen years.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 14, 2019, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 14, 2019, 12:28:38 PM
I have a hard time listening to boots from the FII Era. Just feels like DT's gawky pre teen years.
I'm just the opposite. I love that the setlists were varied to a degree and that there was a looseness and spontaneity where it seemed like anything could happen (and many times did) that was lacking in later tours, even while MP was in the band and certainly in comparison to the band's performances since he left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 14, 2019, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on October 14, 2019, 12:06:37 PM
OK - here's the dealeo ya'll:

I LOVE all three pieces of work! I&W is  classic and I admire a progressive metal band using a saxophone in their defining album. But Awake seemed "forced" to me, so much so, that fans thought they replaced the singer. I think it was MP who said that you have your entire life to record your first album but after that.....(I can't remember what the rest of the quote was).

FII - I think that DS is an awesome keyboardist but he has even said that he thinks of himself as a guitarist on keyboards so I don't think that's what JP or even MP had in mind for the long term vision of DT. I think they wanted more of the soundscape that JR could provide. Besides, I always thought that DS was a pretty cocky individual and I think he is still butt hurt from being let go from the band and still shows it.

Regardless of my personal feelings, I think Awake and FII fall short of what I think of the very definition of what Dream Theater is as a band.

I get where you are coming from, even if I don't agree.  But for me, it's so hard to pick a "least favorite 3-album run" anyway.  Even though they have occasionally done some things I didn't much care for, I don't dislike any albums.  And even the albums that I don't like as much are usually bookended by albums I like a lot.  I guess if I had to choose, the run for me would be TOT > Octavarium > SC.
-TOT is one of my least favorite whole albums, even though it does have some things I really like.  But the two albums that preceded it are my #1 and #2, so I can't go that direction. 
-8VM has some fantastic moments.  But it does have a couple of weaker tracks that I don't much care for, and has some "average" (for DT) ones as well. 
-SC is such a fun listen for the stuff that I like.  But it also has a couple of my least favorite tracks ever.  Much like I&W, although it has some fantastic highs, I consider it a very inconsistent album, with about 1/3 fantastic, 1/3 good, and 1/3 not good. 

Barring that set of 3, I guess I would have to go with WDADU > I&W > Awake. 
-WDADU is my least favorite DT album.  I am very thankful for WADARU, because it got me to listen to and learn to appreciate some of what is going on on that album.  But as far as the original album and that particular recording of those songs, I don't even listen to it.
-I&W...see above.  This was the album that got me into DT, and it has some truly fantastic, classic moments.  But there are consistency issues.
-Awake:  Great album.  But a few songs I don't care for.  And if I'm looking for reasons to put this as part of a "least favorite albums" run...let's just say that when I heard Kevin Moore was no longer in the band, I was REALLY glad. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 14, 2019, 01:19:59 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 14, 2019, 01:14:05 PM
I am very thankful for WADARU

When A Derek And Rudess Unite?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 14, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 14, 2019, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2019, 12:14:33 PM
I don't think getting Rudess had anything to do with Sherinian not being good enough; it was just a matter of, he was always their first choice after Moore left, and once he was open to finally joining, they made the move. 
I think this sums it up pretty well, but just to add to it: DS had a musical background that was a bit more rock n roll than what they were looking for. They wanted someone who had more of a prog background like KM had. So the musical style or direction did play a part. But then in terms of personality, in comparison to the rest of the guys, DS was the odd man out too, being single as opposed to being married like the rest of the guys. So when JR was willing to join, they made the move, not only because he was their first original choice to replace KM, but also because he fit better into what they envisioned for their keyboardist and in general as a member of DT.
 


While that is true, I don't think Derek would have gotten the axe had Rudess not agreed to join.  Then again, the band was viewing their next album (that would become Scenes from a Memory) as make or break, so who knows if they would have felt the need to shake things up on what could have been their swan song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 14, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 14, 2019, 01:14:05 PM
But for me, it's so hard to pick a "least favorite 3-album run" anyway.

Well...there are 12 possible three album runs, and only two of those include two of my bottom five albums (WDADU, FII, SC, BC&SL and TA), and any three album run that includes WDADU or FII also includes two top five albums, so that leaves the following possibilities for me:

- 8VA, SC and BC&SL
- SC, BC&SL and ADTOE

Given those possibilities, and since, for me, 8VA > ADTOE, the run of SC, BC&SL and ADTOE has to rank as my least favorite three album run, even though I quite like ADTOE.


Quote from: TAC on October 14, 2019, 12:17:48 PM
Derek was always a step down for the band.

Concur (if not in intent, then certainly in result).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 14, 2019, 01:53:27 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 14, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
While that is true, I don't think Derek would have gotten the axe had Rudess not agreed to join. Then again, the band was viewing their next album (that would become Scenes from a Memory) as make or break, so who knows if they would have felt the need to shake things up on what could have been their swan song.
Actually, I fully agree with you. Likely they would've kept DS had JR not made himself available. And given that album #5 was going to be make or break with them, I can't imagine they would've kicked DS to the curb for another keyboard player that they hadn't worked with previously (with the concern over personality conflicts, musical chemistry, etc.) But since they already had worked with JR on the 2 LTE albums, as well as the fact that his style was more in line with what they wanted to do with DT, they were willing to make the move.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 14, 2019, 02:09:20 PM
After all, didn't Mike put it like "it's not what was wrong with Derek, but what was right with Jordan"? I think the issue wasn't "we have to get rid of Derek, let's see who can replace him", but rather "Hey, Jordan's available, should we change the keyboard player?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 14, 2019, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 14, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
Given those possibilities, and since, for me, 8VA > ADTOE, the run of SC, BC&SL and ADTOE has to rank as my least favorite three album run, even though I quite like ADTOE.
Same. I mean, I wouldn't say I *quite* like ADTOE, it's probably still near the bottom half for me (SC and BCSL occupy the very bottom). It's a good album in the trademark "new" DT style, it has an equal balance of dark and light, prog and metal, epicness and brevity. It's just that on 8VM these ~mandatory elements~ pleased my ears a little more: the prog was a touch more playful, the metal was more natural, the lightness was poppier and snappier, the piano ballady bits were more ethereal.

Of course, ADTOE has Breaking All Illusions, and 8VM has nothing of the sort. But that's just one part of the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 14, 2019, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 14, 2019, 02:09:20 PM
After all, didn't Mike put it like "it's not what was wrong with Derek, but what was right with Jordan"? I think the issue wasn't "we have to get rid of Derek, let's see who can replace him", but rather "Hey, Jordan's available, should we change the keyboard player?"

Pretty much.  As Mora pointed out on the last page, JR was the first choice to replace KM (he was the keyboard player for the band's first live performance post-KM), and the only went with DS when JR didn't take the gig.  When JR decided to take the gig a few years later, I suspect it was simply a matter of whether DS had done enough to make the other guys want to keep him over getting the guy who was their original fist choice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 14, 2019, 07:10:01 PM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 14, 2019, 08:48:55 AM
In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

I agree. This is, probably, my least favorite live DT era, and it's mostly because of this (and that they played A LOT of unnecesary covers even though they had a big enough catalog already to play originals only, not to mention the abridged versions of some of their classics). Just listening to the OIALT album or other bootlegs from the era, the instrumental sections sound odd, some were even played slower and just didn't sound right. I think Derek did a better job on the Awake tour, tho (again, judging by bootlegs and stuff like that), not sure why's that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 16, 2019, 06:13:38 AM
Back in 98', I went to a friend's house and he had LTE..Just when Paradigm Shift played I thought that JR was at that time the most technical/progressive keyboardist I've ever heard..I mean there was Matt Guillory and Derek Sherinian (I'm mentioning all the American based keyboardists)..but JR was really an upcoming force back then..
MP and JP (and I'm guessing JP more) wanted a writing partner that would help them transfer the writing chemistry that they've had with LTE to DT..
The fact is that as MP has mentioned that they wanted a change of character with hiring JR. DS was amidst some of the toughest years the band has ever faced..back then I was annoyed that the keyboard parts he played didn't sound close as the authentic ones..but Derek was a different player, another beast on his own IMO. Very powerful keyboard player, always in the pocket, and focused on songs..When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 16, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 16, 2019, 06:13:38 AM
When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...

While this is mostly true, let's not forget that Donati was the main writer for Planet X, not Derek. And Derek is on record saying he didn't enjoy PX music that much anyway. Even his solo albums, which have some really good tracks among them, feature multiple co-writers like Simon Phillips.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JayOctavarium on October 16, 2019, 09:18:42 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 14, 2019, 01:19:59 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 14, 2019, 01:14:05 PM
I am very thankful for WADARU

When A Derek And Rudess Unite?

I mean...

It's accurate....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 16, 2019, 09:58:12 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 16, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 16, 2019, 06:13:38 AM
When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...

While this is mostly true, let's not forget that Donati was the main writer for Planet X, not Derek. And Derek is on record saying he didn't enjoy PX music that much anyway. Even his solo albums, which have some really good tracks among them, feature multiple co-writers like Simon Phillips.

It's true that Derek didn't enjoy playing Planet X's music but only because it became more and more complicated over the years..also Virgil for sure was one of the main writers..Planet X is mainly their band, many of the riffs that Derek wrote were actually drum parts that Virgil was sending to Derek..The thing is JR is more complete as a composer and simply another musical mind than Derek..Derek likes to take what's best from guest musicians for his solo albums for example and write music..
All and all for me there is no comparison, Jordan Rudess was and still is the best option for Dream Theater..but the story so far leaves me with a sour taste 'cause over the years I really appreciated Derek's keyboard approach and still question what might have been if he actually stayed for a while!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on October 17, 2019, 12:55:04 AM
I think there is no valid comparison between DS and JR, both are great in their own way.
Derek has a more rock background, and that comes out in his music, sounds and way of playing. I still love some of his parts on Metropolis pt.2 demos, very alien and different sounding. He had (and has) more edge to his sound, he is more restrained and more limited in sound range.

JR is a wizard when in comes to tech, coming up with new sounds, but he has also a classical background, more prog-oriented and he doesn't try to restrain his playing, sometimes overdoing it in my opinion. But if you take the LTE albums and compare them to Octavarium, you can see how much of an amazing composer and sound designer he is. He has an incredible taste in sounds and given the proper setup, he can create amazing things. He sometimes can become a bit cheesy but still i love his playing. I think Octavarium and The Astonishing are his best albums with DT.

Still, KM is my favorite even though he might be the least diverse in terms of sounds  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 07:10:43 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on October 17, 2019, 12:55:04 AM
I think there is no valid comparison between DS and JR, both are great in their own way.
Derek has a more rock background, and that comes out in his music, sounds and way of playing. I still love some of his parts on Metropolis pt.2 demos, very alien and different sounding. He had (and has) more edge to his sound, he is more restrained and more limited in sound range.

JR is a wizard when in comes to tech, coming up with new sounds, but he has also a classical background, more prog-oriented and he doesn't try to restrain his playing, sometimes overdoing it in my opinion. But if you take the LTE albums and compare them to Octavarium, you can see how much of an amazing composer and sound designer he is. He has an incredible taste in sounds and given the proper setup, he can create amazing things. He sometimes can become a bit cheesy but still i love his playing. I think Octavarium and The Astonishing are his best albums with DT.

Still, KM is my favorite even though he might be the least diverse in terms of sounds  :coolio

Very good points there nikatapi! Especially about JR..he's really a sound wizard, an excellent virtuoso and a very complete musician..
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking in account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked! But what a great player and a master of avant-garde keyboard playing, with his use of samples, hunting effects and great sounds..not to mention a great lyricists too!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 17, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
Planet X wasn't a reaction from Derek to being let go of DT. That album was commissioned to him by Mike Varney from Magna Carta while he was still in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 17, 2019, 09:02:46 AM
I like Planet X and some of Sherinian's solo stuff. It would've been cool if he had made a full-on prog album with DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 07:10:43 AM
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!
What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on October 17, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
Worst 3 album stretch IMO is:

SC, BC&SL, ADTOE 

Best 3 album stretch is:

FII, SFAM, SDOIT
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 12:04:59 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 07:10:43 AM
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!
What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on October 17, 2019, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 12:04:59 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 07:10:43 AM
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!
What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

Not to answer for Scotty, but you twisted the words around big time to come to your above conclusion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 17, 2019, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 17, 2019, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 12:04:59 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 07:10:43 AM
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!
What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

Not to answer for Scotty, but you twisted the words around big time to come to your above conclusion.

Well maybe IgnotusPerIgnotium unintentionally mixed his words a bit but his main point is still correct (according to Portnoy's writings in that link). Moore didn't enjoy writing with the band and came into the studio with his parts already written.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 17, 2019, 01:01:22 PM
Not ALL of his parts.  According to what Mike wrote, that pertained to the pieces he mostly wrote (6:00 and SDV) and to his solos. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 17, 2019, 01:06:40 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 17, 2019, 01:01:22 PM
Not ALL of his parts.  According to what Mike wrote, that pertained to the pieces he mostly wrote (6:00 and SDV) and to his solos.

True. I should've said "all the parts he wrote himself".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 17, 2019, 01:30:32 PM
I have always wanted to hear that demo of Lie Mike is talking about (the passage that comes up at 53ish mins on that video). Lie already sounds like a proto-OSI song to me, to hear it with KM's vocals would be beyond cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 12:04:59 PM
MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!
It's been a long time since I've read the liner notes to the Awake demos, so I *did* forget MP's comment that he refused to write or record his solos with anyone else present. But as others have pointed out, you are reading way more into it than what was stated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 18, 2019, 06:45:50 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 17, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 17, 2019, 12:04:59 PM
MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!
It's been a long time since I've read the liner notes to the Awake demos, so I *did* forget MP's comment that he refused to write or record his solos with anyone else present. But as others have pointed out, you are reading way more into it than what was stated.
Yeah me too, I didn't want to be misunderstood or anything just trying to make a point about the tensions within the band at that period! Glad that it was clarified by the other fellows above!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
Don't know how 'controversial' this is but, I wish/hope that the next DT tour contains zero 'anniversary' songs/ideas and is nothing but MM era songs. I think the catalog of MM era songs is strong, full of great music and it's time to showcase those prominently.

I've noticed in the 4x I've seen DT now with MM that when he's playing 'his' songs he is entirely more charismatic and 'fun' and fluid and 'on' than he is when performing the MP era stuff. He gets the job done quite well on them....BUT....when he's playing his stuff there's a noticeable difference to me.

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 21, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.
I don't think that will ever happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 21, 2019, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 21, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.
I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 21, 2019, 08:56:35 AM
I remember making a thread about it some time ago, how would people feel if the entire set would be dedicated to the Mangini era songs, with the older ones being reserved only in the encore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on October 21, 2019, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 21, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.
I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.

Well, technically 'yes'....but it was only Astonishing songs. AND....it was incredible to see live....especially watching/listening to MM. In fact, it may be the single best showcase of what MM is capable of because he's unreal on that album. He demonstrates how constant practice and dedication to improving your skills can lead to an awesome product because he's untouchable in it.

While I agree with Hef that I don't think it'll ever happen....I'd still love to see an all MM era song tour. I think it'd be awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on October 21, 2019, 09:01:23 AM
I'm with you on the "non-anniversary" setlist, and I'd add that I'd love to see a setlist without an album being played in full. The current tour is the third one where an album is played in its entirety, and I'd love to get a little bit more variety on a set of stand alone songs for a change. But all MM era songs...no thanks.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 21, 2019, 09:06:09 AM
I wouldn't mind half & half: pre-Mangini songs & songs from the last 4 albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 21, 2019, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on October 21, 2019, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 21, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 21, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.
I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.

Well, technically 'yes'....but it was only Astonishing songs. AND....it was incredible to see live....especially watching/listening to MM. In fact, it may be the single best showcase of what MM is capable of because he's unreal on that album. He demonstrates how constant practice and dedication to improving your skills can lead to an awesome product because he's untouchable in it.

While I agree with Hef that I don't think it'll ever happen....I'd still love to see an all MM era song tour. I think it'd be awesome.

I wouldn't mind that after their next album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 26, 2019, 04:45:07 AM
Mike should have used his "standard sized" large kit for the recording of D/T, he unneccessarily limited himself in that respect (or rather: I don't understand why he did it)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 26, 2019, 02:42:05 PM
Least favorite album stretch

WDaDU
I&W
Awake

I certainly don't hate these albums at all, and there are songs on each one that I like quite a bit, but they are the three I listen to the least, mostly because they sound dated to me.

Favorite stretch

FII
SFaM
SDoIT

FII is not in my top 5 but it rates higher for me than ToT by just a little.  And the other two are always in my top 5.

And an MM era tour would be excellent but probably not realistic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Well, here we go. I've been a fan for about 3 years, but I'm new to this site. Please don't shun me too much for what I'm about to say.



Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 29, 2019, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.

I can't agree with you about TTT, but I have similar feelings about Under a Glass Moon.  It's not bottom 15, but it's in the bottom half (and maybe bottom quarter) of DT's catalog for me.  Lie, on the other hand is definitely a bottom 15-20 song, as is The Mirror (I like Lie >> The Mirror).  HTF is also a bottom of the barrel song.


Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).

Now THAT is controversial but maybe explained by the year when you became a fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 29, 2019, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.

I can't agree with you about TTT, but I have similar feelings about Under a Glass Moon.  It's not bottom 15, but it's in the bottom half (and maybe bottom quarter) of DT's catalog for me.  Lie, on the other hand is definitely a bottom 15-20 song, as is The Mirror (I like Lie >> The Mirror).  HTF is also a bottom of the barrel song.


Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).

Now THAT is controversial but maybe explained by the year when you became a fan.

Under A Glass Moon is rather low on my list as well, but both TTT and UAGM are still good songs. They're just not as good, for Dream Theater's standards.
The Mirror is much better than Lie, but even then, I still like Lie. As for HTF, I wouldn't even call it outright bad, but it's still the bottom of my list by a pretty significant margin. Runner-ups are JLMB and the aforementioned Peruvian Skies. So yeah, as you can tell, I think even the worst of Dream Theater is still alright in some way. TTT may be 15 away from the bottom, but it's still a very good song; just heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

As for The Astonishing, I hadn't given it a good proper listen until last year. I did listen to it back in 2017, around the time I was about to go to an IW&B show (which was my first DT concert, and first concert (that I cared about) ever!), but I didn't really think much of it at first. But these days, definitely one of Dream Theater's better albums, I would say.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs.

Correct.

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.

Correct again.  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1.  But after that, Enigma Machine is definitely in the conversation for next best.

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Well, there isn't anything wrong with them, so correct yet again.  Wow, you're really on a roll!  :tup

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
[other stuff]

Oh well.  3 out of 8 isn't bad for a first post.  :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 29, 2019, 10:16:03 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs.

Correct.

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.

Correct again.  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1.  But after that, Enigma Machine is definitely in the conversation for next best.

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Well, there isn't anything wrong with them, so correct yet again.  Wow, you're really on a roll!  :tup

Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
[other stuff]

Oh well.  3 out of 8 isn't bad for a first post.  :lol
yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 29, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 29, 2019, 10:18:39 AM
Continuing on with the topic of instrumental pieces, I'd love it if DT15 were to have an instrumental piece.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 10:19:25 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 29, 2019, 10:16:03 AM
yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear :D
What are your controversial thoughts? I tried looking for yours but couldn't find anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 29, 2019, 10:21:26 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 10:19:25 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 29, 2019, 10:16:03 AM
yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear :D
What are your controversial thoughts? I tried looking for yours but couldn't find anything.
one of them is that MP should have left earlier than he did. You'll find more of them if you look for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 10:21:39 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 29, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts
Erotomania is my favorite solely because it leads directly into Voices. It's why I personally treat A Mind Beside Itself as, well, A Mind Beside Itself, rather than three separate entities. Separately, all three songs are great, but combined, they make for a truly beautiful piece of music.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 29, 2019, 10:21:57 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 29, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

Agree on both counts. I like a lot SoC, it's moody and atmospheric and I love how it's riff based and not jam based, but at a certain point you kinda have to end the song, c'mon, finish it already.

And Erotomania is kickass  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 29, 2019, 10:24:04 AM
Quote from: gmillerdrake on October 29, 2019, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

All that you said, but exactly the opposite :lol

Erotomania is really good, but it just loses me every time they go into the guitar shred section, and I feel like it, as a whole, accomplishes nothing on its own (though it helps set the mood for Voices, which is :hefdaddy). SOC, on the other side, is very emotional for me and love the way it builds up towards the end, it doesn't feel anticlimactic to me at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 10:27:50 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).
Eve is so good!! How'd I forget that one? When I eventually add all of the unreleased/demo songs to my DT song ranking list, Eve will likely be Top 40, bare minimum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on October 29, 2019, 10:45:38 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.

You apologize for those words right now. Eve is beautiful. Leave Eve alone!!  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 29, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk  :lol

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2019, 10:58:08 AM
No love for Raw Dog for a top DT instrumental?  :biggrin:

but seriously, The Answer Lies Within is beautiful and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song.  I love em both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 11:04:51 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on October 29, 2019, 10:58:08 AM
No love for Raw Dog for a top DT instrumental?  :biggrin:

but seriously, The Answer Lies Within is beautiful and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song.  I love em both.
I've only ever listened to Raw Dog once. I guess I'll have to give it another go sometime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2019, 11:06:31 AM
Well that was a joke, although I do find some enjoyment in the wankery, it's just not a consistent song with a flow.  I think I rank it higher in DT instrumentals than most, but it's certainly not at the top.  Enigma Machine would be higher.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:08:52 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on October 29, 2019, 10:58:08 AM
...and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song. 

I missed that one in my post earlier.  Yeah, great song.  Love it.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 11:18:42 AM
https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on October 29, 2019, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 29, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk  :lol

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 11:18:42 AM
https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

 :facepalm:

???  I don't understand.  What is the :facepalm: for?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Lethean on October 29, 2019, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 29, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk  :lol

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.

For example, the "all the finest wines improve with age" line.  It is a direct quote from an ad campaign from the '80s.  I forget which wine brand it was, but it was one of the first "wine in the box" wines that you could buy.  I remember the commercials trying to look serious and sophisticated, and using that line, and it being unintentionally humorous because NOBODY took it seriously with relation to that wine.  It was even indirectly made fun of in a couple of movies in years following, where people would refer to wine by the box as being decidedly unsophisticated, but people who would actually drink that kind of wine not being sophisticated enough to realize that.  Anyhow, that's sort of the context for that quote in TCOT.  The whole thing about the Count is that he and his family are living out of time, and the Count is only slightly aware of the fact that they would be considered odd and out of time by others on the outside.  So that line fits with JP's portrayal of the character as unwittingly anachronistic.  That's why that is such a GREAT line if you happen to know that back story.  It is definitely an "I see what you did there, John--that was pretty clever" moment.  But if you have no idea because you are too young to have seen those commercials and to know that, it doesn't come across as clever--it comes across as silly and out of place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 29, 2019, 11:53:59 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 11:18:42 AM
https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

 :facepalm:
???  I don't understand.  What is the :facepalm: for?
Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 29, 2019, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).
You're not. DT have a lot of great instrumentals, but a lot of us love that song. I would argue there's absolutely nothing to dislike about it, but folks be hatin' on Kevin Moore around here!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 01:26:47 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 10:23:03 AM
Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.
I was talking about Eve, not Raw Dog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 01:39:02 PM
Every copy of Eve should be burned in an eternal, unquenchable fire.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 29, 2019, 01:46:16 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 29, 2019, 11:53:59 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 11:18:42 AM
https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

 :facepalm:
???  I don't understand.  What is the :facepalm: for?
Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.

Some people are just impossible to please (talking about these comments, not Scotty). Back in 2014, when they first played FF with Mangini, he played that section in a simple, more musical way and many complained that Mike played it “too safe”, that it was too simple, not as good as MP, etc. Now, when he goes crazy on his own way and does this mindblowing thing, people complain it’s not musical enough, that he’s just bashing the drums, blah blah. This time they’ve (DT) decided to approach differently and, while what he’s playing here isn’t as musical, it’s just supposed to be a fun solo spot during a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 29, 2019, 02:05:11 PM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:58:54 AM
Under A Glass Moon is rather low on my list as well, but both TTT and UAGM are still good songs. They're just not as good, for Dream Theater's standards.
The Mirror is much better than Lie, but even then, I still like Lie. As for HTF, I wouldn't even call it outright bad, but it's still the bottom of my list by a pretty significant margin. Runner-ups are JLMB and the aforementioned Peruvian Skies. So yeah, as you can tell, I think even the worst of Dream Theater is still alright in some way. TTT may be 15 away from the bottom, but it's still a very good song; just heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

I honestly don't like The Mirror (and, to a lesser extent, Lie).  If I'm listening to Awake, I'll skip both.  Of course, in the grand scheme of music, they're not bad songs, but, as you said, heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

As far as instrumentals, SOC is my undisputed favorite (although the slow section toward the end does bog it down a bit).

Ytse Jam gets 4/5 (esp. considering when it was written)
Erotomania gets 3.5/5 (never been a favorite of mine)
Hell's Kitchen gets 4/5 (but for completely different reasons)
Dance of Eternity is a very close runner up to SOC - minimum of 4.5/5
Enigma Machine is 3.5/5

I'm not considering Overture 1928 outside the context of SFAM, but it would get 4.5/5 if I did.  Nor am I considering False Awakening Suite or the SDOIT Overture (the former not really being a band track).

Eve is fine, but it doesn't compare to the rest.  I think I've heard Raw Dog maybe twice, and I wasn't impressed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 29, 2019, 02:16:00 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 01:39:02 PM
Every copy of Eve should be burned in an eternal, unquenchable fire.
Completely baffling.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 29, 2019, 03:44:20 PM
I've never been a big fan of Eve, but simply because it's a style of music thats not to my taste.  It is a very beautiful piece though and I totally get why some would really like it. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive. :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 29, 2019, 05:04:56 PM
Eve is great. I remember those early shows where they would play it, and I thought it was awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive. :huh:
W H A T
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:09:53 PM
I didn't like it :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 05:10:25 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:09:53 PM
I didn't like it :dunno:
Ah, OK.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:50 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive. :huh:
Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:50 PM
Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things.

Wow! All of a sudden, I love wars in the middle east, deaths of countless puppies, and climate change
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 29, 2019, 08:01:18 PM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

 :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on October 29, 2019, 08:05:44 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Lethean on October 29, 2019, 11:20:06 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on October 29, 2019, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: Revenge319 on October 29, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk  :lol

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.

For example, the "all the finest wines improve with age" line.  It is a direct quote from an ad campaign from the '80s.  I forget which wine brand it was, but it was one of the first "wine in the box" wines that you could buy.  I remember the commercials trying to look serious and sophisticated, and using that line, and it being unintentionally humorous because NOBODY took it seriously with relation to that wine.  It was even indirectly made fun of in a couple of movies in years following, where people would refer to wine by the box as being decidedly unsophisticated, but people who would actually drink that kind of wine not being sophisticated enough to realize that.  Anyhow, that's sort of the context for that quote in TCOT.  The whole thing about the Count is that he and his family are living out of time, and the Count is only slightly aware of the fact that they would be considered odd and out of time by others on the outside.  So that line fits with JP's portrayal of the character as unwittingly anachronistic.  That's why that is such a GREAT line if you happen to know that back story.  It is definitely an "I see what you did there, John--that was pretty clever" moment.  But if you have no idea because you are too young to have seen those commercials and to know that, it doesn't come across as clever--it comes across as silly and out of place.

That's interesting.  Has JP ever confirmed that?  Not that it really even necessarily matters - if you, me, or anyone interpret lyrics a certain way or connect them to something, I think that's totally valid regardless of the writer's intent.  But I'd still be curious.  Either way, I don't know if that will "save" the lyrics for me - some of those lines just see cringey either way, especially when you put them with the chorus and the character's supposed to be scared of this person... But I do find this interesting and something to think about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 09:11:43 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 29, 2019, 11:53:59 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on October 29, 2019, 11:18:42 AM
https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

 :facepalm:
???  I don't understand.  What is the :facepalm: for?
Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.

I am OK with MM improv. I think he does a great job doing his own thing, what I don;t like it;s all the comments that MP is better or that MM is better and on and on and on
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.
It's certainly better than BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 30, 2019, 09:17:49 AM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.

From the time I bought it and still to this day, I think that BC&SL is a great, solid Dream Theater album, in my opinion the last great album of the band..SDOIT was also great as I was wondering what the band's direction is going to be after the massive success of SFAM..I bought TOT, 8V, then SC..but honestly they didn't gave me a solid from start to finish experience that say SDOIT gave me..I liked most of the songs though..so yeah BC&SL for me ranks very high in my list. But the cover album..now that's controversial!  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 30, 2019, 10:27:46 AM
BC&SL is high on my list as well.  But some of the newer released may have bumped it down.  I had it as high as #4 favorite album by DT.  It really resonated with me that summer.  I hardly listen to it these days, but it's still a really strong album that's only fault is being only 6 songs.  If you didn't like one or two of those songs, the album ends up being kind of a downer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 30, 2019, 11:16:04 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:50 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 29, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive. :huh:
Oh, it's plenty offensive.  I have first-hand information that Eve is solely responsible for wars in the middle east, the deaths of countless puppies, and climate change, among other things.

 :lol

Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

BC&SL is pretty good, there are a few songs I don't care for: The Shattered Fortress, The Best of Times.  But It also contains some of my favorite songs: The Count of Tuscany, A Rite of Passage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 30, 2019, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: TAC on October 29, 2019, 05:04:56 PM
Eve is great. I remember those early shows where they would play it, and I thought it was awesome.

Yup.  At some point in '93 or '94, I acquired a tape copy of the 3/4/93 NYC show.  It was my introduction to Eve and ACOS (although they played the former at the 6/3/93 show I attended, I can't say I have any recollection of it).

The BC&SL covers disc is cool, but I wouldn't even say that it's better than the album proper (even though I only really ever listen to Wither, TCOT and, sometimes, TSF).  The covers of Stargazer (probably my favorite Dio track ever (Rainbow, Sabbath or eponymous band)) and To Tame a Land (my favorite Maiden track ever) are cool, but Dio's voice and delivery style are virtually impossible to cover well (esp. with all of the "improv" stuff at the end of Stargazer), and Dickinson is only slightly easier in that regard.  The cover of Odyssey is also very cool.  The rest of the covers are just meh (mostly because I'm not really familiar with or a fan of the originals).


Quote from: Northern Lion on October 30, 2019, 11:16:04 AM
Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

I think I would pretty easily sleep through it and probably would find it better for falling asleep to.  Judas Priest's Painkiller would be a better morning alarm song!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 30, 2019, 04:06:49 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 30, 2019, 11:16:04 AM
Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

When I was younger I had a CD player alarm, so I thought it would be a great idea to wake up to a song I really enjoy.  Not long after, I really hated that song that I had loved.  It always reminded me of the struggle of waking up if I heard it outside of my alarm.  I've never done something similar since to not ruin music I enjoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on October 30, 2019, 06:44:36 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.
It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 31, 2019, 06:54:48 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 30, 2019, 06:44:36 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.
It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.
You're exactly right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 31, 2019, 10:31:55 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 30, 2019, 06:44:36 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:15 AM
Quote from: Nic35 on October 29, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
The BC&SL cover album is the best thing they released since SDOIT.
It's certainly better than BC&SL.

The weirdest part is how much better it sounds. It's like it was mastered differently from the main album.

Those songs were released differently right?  If I recall the IM cover was on a cover album from like ~6 months before BC&SL was released and then they slowly trickled out the other cover songs before the album.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if it was mastered differently due to the timing of everything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 31, 2019, 10:40:07 AM
another one from me: AWE might have sounded better if the ending that DT use live as of now had been the ending for the studio version as well. (Not that there is anything wrong with AWE itself though, I like it quite a bit)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:41:05 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 30, 2019, 11:35:50 AM

Quote from: Northern Lion on October 30, 2019, 11:16:04 AM
Pertaining to Eve... I use it as my alarm to wake up in the morning.

I think I would pretty easily sleep through it and probably would find it better for falling asleep to.  Judas Priest's Painkiller would be a better morning alarm song!

I find the song really gentle to wake up to.  I don't like jarring alarms, they just put me in a bad mood in the morning. Also my wife and I get up at different times and I don't want to wake her to much when I get up.

Quote from: cramx3 on October 30, 2019, 04:06:49 PM
When I was younger I had a CD player alarm, so I thought it would be a great idea to wake up to a song I really enjoy.  Not long after, I really hated that song that I had loved.  It always reminded me of the struggle of waking up if I heard it outside of my alarm.  I've never done something similar since to not ruin music I enjoy.

This also the reason I use Eve instead of a different song.  It is gentle but I don't really care for it so I only use it as my alarm and don't listen to it at any other time.  At first when I became a DT fan I used Trial of Tears, but quickly stopped precisely for the reason you mentioned.  It's one of my favorite songs and I just didn't want to think of waking up every time I listened to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gmillerdrake on October 31, 2019, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

Personally because it's not really a DT song IMO. If I remember correctly  JP, MP and JR wrote it in a matter of a few days at the behest of the 'God of War' developers request..... JMX wasn't involved in writing at all and obviously JLB wasn't. When listening to it while sure....it has some chunk and some cool moments but all in all it's pretty generic IMO. I just personally don't hear it or treat it as a 'real' DT song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on October 31, 2019, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I've still never listened to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 31, 2019, 12:45:06 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?
Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 31, 2019, 12:46:03 PM
Quote from: Chino on October 31, 2019, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I've still never listened to it.

I heard it once for sure. Maybe twice. I don't think I'm gonna bother with the third.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 31, 2019, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I'm with you. Not my favorite, but definitely not as bad as some people here say it is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on October 31, 2019, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 31, 2019, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

I'm with you. Not my favorite, but definitely not as bad as some people here say it is.

Same, I've always enjoyed it for what it is (I'd call it a DT track still, but it was definitely made for a purpose not being a DT album), but mainly:

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 31, 2019, 12:45:06 PM
Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.

this seems to be the biggest reason to not like it and it's legit
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on November 01, 2019, 08:53:03 AM
Thanks everyone, that helps me understand quite a bit better why most don't like it.  But I'm also glad I'm not alone in liking the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on November 01, 2019, 09:20:33 AM
Actually I just listened for the first time Raw Dog from reading you guys..it's a cool little piece..judging how versatile the band is (especially JP&JR) they did a pretty good job considering the context of the song! Back in the day JP wrote also some music for a Sega Saturn game called Necronomicon..I really like that more though cause it's more catchy!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 01, 2019, 09:52:26 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 31, 2019, 11:47:40 AM
I don't know if this would be considered a controversial opinion or not, maybe it's really more of a question.

I really like Raw Dog, a lot.  In fact, it is perhaps my favorite DT instrumental.  But, I have read this forum enough over the years to know that my opinion is definitely a minority.  Could some of you explain to me why you don't like it?

Honestly, I haven't listened to it in I don't know how long and probably only ever listened to it once or twice.  I recall not liking it (hence not going back to it, which is made more difficult given that it's a video game song so I have to listen to it via some sort of streaming service), and my best recollection is that it was lot of very generic, very heavy low-B string kind of stuff (in the vein of Pantera, whom I don't like in the slightest).  I could be completely wrong about that, and I'll maybe give it another listen today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 01, 2019, 11:09:05 AM
Any comparison to Pantera isn't a bad thing at all.  Dimebag wasn't only an awesome guitar player.  He contributed much more to the art of playing guitar in much the same way as JP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 01, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on October 31, 2019, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 31, 2019, 12:45:06 PM
Because it sounds like exactly what it is - a collection of leftover parts that weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs.
this seems to be the biggest reason to not like it and it's legit
I'm glad Northern Lion brought Raw Dog back into the conversation, because after seeing these comments above, it needs to be pointed out that this thinking is not correct. How so?

Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

If what you guys are saying is true - that these individual parts weren't good enough, then the same thinking should apply to what ended up becoming I Walk Beside You (mostly written during the ToT sessions) and the riff found at 1:44 in The Glass Prison - originally written during soundcheck on Touring Into Infinity and previously they tried to use it for what became SFaM. You could also say the same thing for the opening bass riff found in S2N, which would've ended up on the cutting room floor if the band didn't decide to push through and write a song specifically using that riff, after having pushed it aside numerous times during the writing sessions for d/t.

So whether you like the song or not, those individual parts of Raw Dog *were* good enough for earlier songs - it was just that they couldn't find the place to use them during the writing sessions for BCaSL.

Which actually brings up a point that I wish would change - the mentality to write just enough for an album. If they have all those free-flowing ideas happening, why not follow their muse and see where it takes them, especially given the short time that it seems to take them to whip out an album's worth of music? That way, they could pick and choose what they feel are the best songs and/or the right vibe for the final album instead of merely going with whatever they came up with this time around. They were forced to do it for FII, and some of their better songs were written because they weren't permitted to go into the studio as soon as they had an album's worth of material. It would also give them material to use as B-sides, soundtracks, etc.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on November 01, 2019, 12:34:22 PM
Maybe it's just a wrong impression, but I think that a little bit of reason could be attributed to LTE. They realized that, especially with Jordan, they could come up with amazing music in a short amount of time, and so they thought that could always be the case. So they wrote, wrote, wrote, we have 78 minutes, ok it's a wrap.

Maybe it has nothing to do with it, and there were other factors such as families and side projects without the luxury of having "nothing else to do" but jam and write music like in the early days. But I think LTE, aside Jordan himself, left also the legacy in the latter part of Portnoy's tenure of concepts such as "we can write an album in few weeks" and "we need a solo section? ok, let's activate the LTE mode", with whatever that came up from a jam ending up as being the (disjointed) solo section of a song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 01, 2019, 01:32:43 PM
I dunno.  I just kind of feel like it's none of our business.  They write in the way they feel works best for them.  Period.  We aren't part of the process and don't really have any insight beyond whatever opinion we happen to pull out of thin air.  That isn't really worth a whole lot. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 01, 2019, 02:45:15 PM
I think part of my initial enjoyment for Raw Dog comes from not actually knowing all the background info at first, I just knew they had an instrumental song on the God of War soundtrack and it was good, so no more questions asked from me. Maybe if some of you didn’t know it was “discarded” material, you would enjoy it more. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on November 01, 2019, 10:58:32 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 01, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
So whether you like the song or not, those individual parts of Raw Dog *were* good enough for earlier songs - it was just that they couldn't find the place to use them during the writing sessions for BCaSL.

Perfectly said.

I also don't understand this mentality.  Artists create.  It's what they do.  They dream about it and wake up and write it down or jump out of the shower and write it down or record a little riff into their phones.  Inspiration happens 24/7 and there's probably days and days of music just sitting around the could get used at some point or stay hidden.  It's no big deal.  Just think about how much Vai and Satch have squirreled away.  In fact, I just recently read something that Satch has finally digitized 30+ years of his vaulted noodling and ideas.

It's different for traditional bands like Bon Jovi or Halestorm who write 30+ songs for every album and then choose what's "good enough" to be released officially or "bad enough" to be vaulted and maybe revisited at a later date or combined into a "new" song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 02, 2019, 12:03:20 AM
For the record, I didn't know that Raw Dog was an outtake from the BC&SL sessions & I still disliked it. Learning that it was an outtake just explained why it sounded more like a collection of unused riffs & solos than an actual "song", so to speak.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on November 03, 2019, 10:46:05 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 02, 2019, 12:03:20 AM
For the record, I didn't know that Raw Dog was an outtake from the BC&SL sessions & I still disliked it. Learning that it was an outtake just explained why it sounded more like a collection of unused riffs & solos than an actual "song", so to speak.

Yup. Don't understand the idea that those who don't like the song don't like it for some arbitrary reason unrelated to the music itself. Whether it was an outtake or not, it's not a song I feel compelled to listen to ever again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 04, 2019, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 01, 2019, 02:45:15 PM
I think part of my initial enjoyment for Raw Dog comes from not actually knowing all the background info at first, I just knew they had an instrumental song on the God of War soundtrack and it was good, so no more questions asked from me. Maybe if some of you didn’t know it was “discarded” material, you would enjoy it more. Just my two cents.
Nope.  I thought it was awful.  If I like it, I like it.  Doesn't matter where it came from, in that regard.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on November 04, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 01, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 04, 2019, 11:35:30 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on November 04, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 01, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.

Where did you place it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 04, 2019, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on November 01, 2019, 12:34:22 PM
Maybe it's just a wrong impression, but I think that a little bit of reason could be attributed to LTE. They realized that, especially with Jordan, they could come up with amazing music in a short amount of time, and so they thought that could always be the case. So they wrote, wrote, wrote, we have 78 minutes, ok it's a wrap.
That may have been the case, but I don't necessarily think so. LTE was all about writing and recording an album in the studio simultaneously. Even with Awake, they wrote that album in less than a month. Same with ToT, which they did the "old" way. So I don't necessarily think that's the case.
 
 
Quote from: bosk1 on November 01, 2019, 01:32:43 PM
I dunno.  I just kind of feel like it's none of our business.  They write in the way they feel works best for them.  Period.  We aren't part of the process and don't really have any insight beyond whatever opinion we happen to pull out of thin air.  That isn't really worth a whole lot.
Perhaps. But how much of what we discuss - i.e. the inner workings of the band - is any of our business? We discuss it because we're interested in it. And so I'm having a hard time understanding why this should be singled out in comparison to many other aspects of the band. Again, considering the few occasions where they did write more than an album's worth of material, they ended up choosing at least some of the newer tracks over older ones. In fact, we might not even be having this discussion had they not written PMU, which was written when Derek Oliver asked them to write a few more tunes while they were waiting for the green light to get into the studio. So again, I fail to see how this could be a terrible idea, given the rapid clip that they can crank new material out.
 
 
Quote from: PetFish on November 01, 2019, 10:58:32 PM
It's different for traditional bands like Bon Jovi or Halestorm who write 30+ songs for every album and then choose what's "good enough" to be released officially or "bad enough" to be vaulted and maybe revisited at a later date or combined into a "new" song.
But honestly, why should it be different for DT in comparison to Bon Jovi or Halestorm? Why should they stop when they're on a roll creatively? Who know what they might come up with, if they follow their muse. Maybe even the next "Pull Me Under."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on November 04, 2019, 03:30:35 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 04, 2019, 03:06:09 PM
Why should they stop when they're on a roll creatively? Who know what they might come up with, if they follow their muse. Maybe even the next "Pull Me Under."
I agree with you. Y'all know my fave album is Awake, for reasons of personal taste. They cranked that one out really fast, because they could, and just like a lot of the music they cranked out really fast, it's really good. But IAW, ACOS and Scenes are the most critically acclaimed and most beloved by the fans - and what do all these pieces have in common? Significant bits of music and lyrics existed years before the respective albums were recorded, because they were blocked from recording them (because the label said no, and because they didn't have a singer). And these pieces were refined and added to all the time. And then they could select for the best.

I really like some bits of ACOS that didn't make it in, both lyrically and musically. But they sat on that song for years and turned it into a cinematic masterpiece of images and words. If they recorded it back when they played it live for the first time, it wouldn't have been what it is today. Same with Scenes being left as one epic song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 04, 2019, 05:27:01 PM
I don't think another Pull Me Under is possible unless they completely change their style, or do something completely unique/viral. It's not the 90's anymore, there are new solutions to be found
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 05, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
Quote from: Evai on November 04, 2019, 05:27:01 PM
I don't think another Pull Me Under is possible unless they completely change their style, or do something completely unique/viral. It's not the 90's anymore, there are new solutions to be found
It's highly unlikely. But then again, it was highly unlikely in 1992 when grunge had taken to the airwaves. I don't expect it to happen any more than you do, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on November 05, 2019, 11:55:10 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on November 04, 2019, 11:35:30 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on November 04, 2019, 09:47:54 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 01, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Yes, the individual parts that make up Raw Dog are apparently leftovers from the BCaSL sessions. However, it is a misnomer to say that they "weren't deemed good enough to be in earlier songs." If those individual parts were not deemed good enough to be in songs, then the guys would not have kept them as part of their "riffentory" list in the first place! The key is, that these individual parts were not used because the guys could not find an appropriate place to use them.

I didn't know that.  That's really funny because I instinctively thought Raw Dog sounded like it belonged on BC&SL, so I created a play list of the album with Raw Dog placed about in the middle.  I think that info is pretty cool.

Where did you place it?

I placed it right after Wither.  It seemed out of place to put it right before or after The Best of Times, and I think it could work well between A Nightmare to Remember and A Rite of Passage.  But because it ends so abruptly, the flow sounded better to me to put it right before The Shattered Fortress because it fades in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on November 20, 2019, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

I'd love to hear Take Away My Pain live, but it may be too personal for JP for him to want to retread that ground. I also like the album version with the funky drums more than the simplified demo version. It feels more unique and special.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on November 20, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

What if JP just did the solo during a solo spot?  The solo is the best part of the song, but its a long song and other than to say "I saw it live!" Id rather them not play it.

Also, I'm cool with WDADU going on the shelf for good.  At this point, the only song I really would want live is Status Seeker and there's just no way they are playing it again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 20, 2019, 03:10:42 PM
The Best of Times solo would work well in a medley, but JP hates medleys and I doubt they are ever coming back, which is a good thing, generally speaking, but it's probably the one way we'd get to see and hear that solo live. 

I agree that the FII version of Take Away My Pain is far and away the best version of it; I would love to see that version played live, although if JP doesn't want to play it, I get it.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on November 20, 2019, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.
me either, and I think that every solo JP played after Black Clouds was better than TBOT. (hello Breaking All Illusions, that one would be a prime example IMHO)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on November 20, 2019, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on November 20, 2019, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Take Away My Pain is so underrated and with a new re-touch for James' voice it should turn to the setlist.

*Dream Theater should consider to re-arrange their older songs to perform live. I know they add some extended solos or passages but for the sake of James' voice they should do something. So, most of the WDADU, FII can see the daylight again.

I'm "meh" about TAMP, but I think most of FII would not require a lot of (or any) tweaking for James to handle.  FII songs have been played with a fair degree of regularity that is more than appropriate given how the album is generally regarded by the fans.  And I think we all have to accept that "most of . . . WDADU" is never coming back for reasons having nothing to do with James's voice, although I would love to see TKH, which would certainly require reworking some of the vocal parts.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*I love the anniversary concert but anniversary tour is something risky and boring. They should do anniversary concert for the future at the selected cities. Me love seeing SDOIT, WDADU and FII anniversary.

They did a WDADU anniversary show.  They're not going to do it again.  FII isn't well-regarded enough to warrant an anniversary show (much less a tour).  The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.


Quote from: SeRoX on November 20, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
*Without information if Portnoy asks the guys not to play TBOT without him DT should play TBOT it too. It's DT's song and has right to play it. Personally I don't like the song much but its solo is something magical and want to hear it live.

This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.
me either, and I think that every solo JP played after Black Clouds was better than TBOT. (hello Breaking All Illusions, that one would be a prime example IMHO)

Yeah, I agree.  I'm not really a fan of the song.  I get why Mike wrote it and I'm really glad he got to play it for his dad before he died.  So undoubtedly the song has a lot of meaning for him.  But as a DT fan I could care less if it is ever played live.  It does have a good solo, but so do a lot of other DT songs :).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: mikeyd23 on November 21, 2019, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 21, 2019, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 21, 2019, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 21, 2019, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

How about rotating setlists?  :)   One night doing disk one, one night doing disk two?  :)

(I'm kidding and going for a laugh; not making any specific point).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 21, 2019, 12:40:02 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 21, 2019, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 21, 2019, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.

For my tastes, I completely agree with you.  But that said, it has that soaring, melodic quality that easily connects with people, so I get why some may feel it is a cut above.  Not that it's "better" or "more special" than the norm--but it just connects with them, perhaps more than the typical solo.  I can't begrudge that even a little bit, even if I may not connect with it the same way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 21, 2019, 01:40:58 PM
Quote from: Stadler on November 21, 2019, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
The possibility of an SDOIT anniversary tour has been discussed in other threads.  The whole album is too long to do (unless they only do it for one or two selected shows), but I'd love it if they did the title track.  I think that would go over as well as the SFAM shows.

How about rotating setlists?  :)   One night doing disk one, one night doing disk two?  :)

(I'm kidding and going for a laugh; not making any specific point).
TBH, if they wanted to go all out, they could make the title track the encore.  They could sprinkle the songs from disc 1 throughout sets 1 & 2, along with other songs.

Of course, this will never happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 21, 2019, 01:42:13 PM
I think 43 minutes is too long for an encore.  Even by DT's standards.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 21, 2019, 01:57:51 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 21, 2019, 01:42:13 PM
I think 43 minutes is too long for an encore.  Even by DT's standards.  :lol
Yeah.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on November 22, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
Actually, it's only 42 mins. :lol

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on November 30, 2019, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on November 22, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
Actually, it's only 42 mins. :lol

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.

Or do an extra long encore.  Scotty can speak more about this since his memory is stellar, but I seem to recall that the encores were pretty long on the 6DOIT tour when many of the shows saw set 2 being nothing but the 6DOIT suite.  I think the first sets were a little longer as well than normal.  The show I saw on that tour had an encore of Home, Take the Time and The Spirit Carries On (which is close to 30 minutes).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on November 30, 2019, 01:40:07 PM
I don't think it's too improbable for them to bust out the SDOIT title track, but certainly not as an encore. It could make up a good chunk of the second set, maybe followed by As I am as the set closer.  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Fritzinger on December 01, 2019, 01:28:40 AM
Quote from: Mladen on November 30, 2019, 01:40:07 PM
I don't think it's too improbable for them to bust out the SDOIT title track, but certainly not as an encore. It could make up a good chunk of the second set, maybe followed by As I am as the set closer.  :metal

I see what you did there - the two songs would flow into each other perfectly!!!


Btw, I saw Haken a few years back in a bar (!) where 80 people fitted in, and they played Visions AND Celestial Elixir as encore... so that's roughly 40 minutes  :lol Also, Transatlantic played Stranger In Your Soul as the encore in a huge 33 minute version during the Whirld Tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rob24 on December 01, 2019, 05:09:46 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 21, 2019, 10:54:33 AM
Quote from: mikeyd23 on November 21, 2019, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on November 20, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
This also has been discussed a lot.  The song's just not very good, and I really don't get why so many folks are seemingly so in love with the guitar solo.

Because it's a really good guitar solo.

I don't think JP's ever done a solo that wasn't really good, and this one is, relatively speaking, nothing special.

That's not how music works. You connect to it on an emotional level, that's why it means something to you. That's why it's special - it's that personal connection. It's not like it needs to be particularly different or flashy, that's just a nonsense approach.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on December 02, 2019, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on November 30, 2019, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on November 22, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
Actually, it's only 42 mins. :lol

They could play it in the 2nd set followed by an encore.  Considering what they did on this tour by playing SFAM (77 mins) in the 2nd set, that would give them at least 20 extra mins in the 1st set.  That's doable.

Or do an extra long encore.  Scotty can speak more about this since his memory is stellar, but I seem to recall that the encores were pretty long on the 6DOIT tour when many of the shows saw set 2 being nothing but the 6DOIT suite.  I think the first sets were a little longer as well than normal.  The show I saw on that tour had an encore of Home, Take the Time and The Spirit Carries On (which is close to 30 minutes).
For the Evening With shows, the encores were on the long side, I think in part because the second set was comparatively short (since it was just the title track of SDoIT). Checking the encores for a few of the shows, it looks like they ran about 35 minutes, give or take. So doing SDoIT as an encore wouldn't be completely out of the question, although I can't imagine them ever doing it like that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: The Walrus on December 03, 2019, 05:18:32 PM
EDIT: I am a grumpy old man in a fairly young man's body, forget it  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 03, 2019, 06:15:56 PM
It feels good though, dunnit?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on December 03, 2019, 06:40:23 PM
And it's so much better screaming at youngins from my recliner with my remote in hand.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on December 05, 2019, 03:48:26 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on December 03, 2019, 05:18:32 PM
EDIT: I am a grumpy old man in a fairly young man's body, forget it  :lol
me too (or so I am told)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 28, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
If They didn't play Don't Look Past Me live, we would have never got Barstool Warrior.

Listen to those songs back to back, they fit perfectly into one another.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on December 29, 2019, 09:49:46 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on December 28, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
If They didn't play Don't Look Past Me live, we would have never got Barstool Warrior.

Listen to those songs back to back, they fit perfectly into one another.

Regardless of the correctness of the second sentence, the first sentence makes no sense at all to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on February 06, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
Haven't been here in a while but was looking for some information on Ytsejam Records.  Saw this and thought I'd chime in. 

Every since Portnoy left I've found very little to like in DT.  ADTOE seemed like a really good album at first.  But after repeated listenings it just didn't withstand the test of time.  And I'm not smart enough to know whether it's true or not, but it certainly SEEMS like it's Petrucci's remake of IAW. 

The DREAM THEATER release was just blah...seemed like a continuation of the idea decay that started around the Train of Thought period and continued ever since. Then The Astonishing...just wow.  I just checked my library...and I have my ratings on that album:

4-stars: (out of 5): 23 minutes
3-stars: 59 minutes
2-stars: 41 minutes
1-star: 9 minutes

I know many enjoy TA but it's the definition of a disasterpiece for me. Combined all that had become bland and uninspiring while leaving out most of the good DT possesses. I haven't bough the new album bc I just don't see the point. I find Petrucci's song-writing to be on autopilot since...well, for a long time. Mangini is technically a wizard but he's just not very innovative or creative IMO.  It all just sounds dull and monotnous at this point.

Now, it had become dull and monotonous to me by the time of BCASLinings. I thought that album pretty much sucked. So the band had grown stale before MP left.

I've also enjoyed a lot of Portnoy's stuff since leaving DT. His work in Transatlantic (especially The Whirlwind) and Neal Morse (especially Similitude of a Dream) is light years ahead of anything DT has done since SDOIT (again, just my opinion).

Anyway...that's my controversial opinion.  I still enjoy a ton of their music (was exploring what I call the "extended" version of FII last night, which got me down this rabbithole).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on February 06, 2020, 02:59:16 PM
Quote from: Fritzinger on December 01, 2019, 01:28:40 AM
Quote from: Mladen on November 30, 2019, 01:40:07 PM
I don't think it's too improbable for them to bust out the SDOIT title track, but certainly not as an encore. It could make up a good chunk of the second set, maybe followed by As I am as the set closer.  :metal

I see what you did there - the two songs would flow into each other perfectly!!!


Btw, I saw Haken a few years back in a bar (!) where 80 people fitted in, and they played Visions AND Celestial Elixir as encore... so that's roughly 40 minutes  :lol Also, Transatlantic played Stranger In Your Soul as the encore in a huge 33 minute version during the Whirld Tour.

Saw Neal Morse on the Great Adventure tour and they did a 30 minute medley as an encore.

Saw Dream Theater on Systematic Chaos tour and they did a 21 minute medley as an encore. 

If you do SDOIT as an encore...you're probably only doing one primary set of 2 hours or so...as opposed to two primary sets (each maybe an hour?) and then an encore that's 2/3 of that length.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 06, 2020, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: MHStrawn on February 06, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
Haven't been here in a while but was looking for some information on Ytsejam Records.  Saw this and thought I'd chime in. 

. . .

Anyway...that's my controversial opinion.  I still enjoy a ton of their music (was exploring what I call the "extended" version of FII last night, which got me down this rabbithole).

That's a lot of words to say basically "DT has sucked for the last decade-plus."


Quote from: MHStrawn on February 06, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
I've also enjoyed a lot of Portnoy's stuff since leaving DT. His work in Transatlantic (especially The Whirlwind) and Neal Morse (especially Similitude of a Dream) is light years ahead of anything DT has done since SDOIT (again, just my opinion).

The Whirlwind came out in 2009 - nearly a year before MP left DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on February 07, 2020, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: MHStrawn on February 06, 2020, 02:43:40 PM
Haven't been here in a while but was looking for some information on Ytsejam Records.  Saw this and thought I'd chime in. 

Every since Portnoy left I've found very little to like in DT.  ADTOE seemed like a really good album at first.  But after repeated listenings it just didn't withstand the test of time.  And I'm not smart enough to know whether it's true or not, but it certainly SEEMS like it's Petrucci's remake of IAW. 

The DREAM THEATER release was just blah...seemed like a continuation of the idea decay that started around the Train of Thought period and continued ever since. Then The Astonishing...just wow.  I just checked my library...and I have my ratings on that album:

4-stars: (out of 5): 23 minutes
3-stars: 59 minutes
2-stars: 41 minutes
1-star: 9 minutes

I know many enjoy TA but it's the definition of a disasterpiece for me. Combined all that had become bland and uninspiring while leaving out most of the good DT possesses. I haven't bough the new album bc I just don't see the point. I find Petrucci's song-writing to be on autopilot since...well, for a long time. Mangini is technically a wizard but he's just not very innovative or creative IMO.  It all just sounds dull and monotnous at this point.

Now, it had become dull and monotonous to me by the time of BCASLinings. I thought that album pretty much sucked. So the band had grown stale before MP left.

I've also enjoyed a lot of Portnoy's stuff since leaving DT. His work in Transatlantic (especially The Whirlwind) and Neal Morse (especially Similitude of a Dream) is light years ahead of anything DT has done since SDOIT (again, just my opinion).

Anyway...that's my controversial opinion.  I still enjoy a ton of their music (was exploring what I call the "extended" version of FII last night, which got me down this rabbithole).

Well, I can't blame a guy for his opinion.  And you're certainly not alone.  In fact, it seems like most bands earlier work is generally more popular and loved than their later work.  I&W is still their best selling album.

Although I really like the Mangini era, I can see why all lot of fans soured after MP left.  But, I didn't become a fan until ADToE so naturally MP's leaving didn't affect me as much from a fan perspective.

But hey, welcome back none-the-less.  And maybe give D/T a spin on youtube and see what you think.  I think it's pretty good myself.  However, FII and it's extended demos are pretty awesome as well :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on February 08, 2020, 02:03:52 AM
I can understand the opinion. There's only about 25% hit rate on the MM era for me. But that was better than BCSL/SC/TOT for me so I don't put it down to MP leaving at all.

D/T has won me back, tho. Really enjoyable record.

If i have one opinion about them now - they need to carry on loosening up and enjoying themselves. Cut the metronome, keep in some flaws, make it as human as possible. I'm very optimistic about them since D/T.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MHStrawn on February 08, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on February 08, 2020, 02:03:52 AM
I can understand the opinion. There's only about 25% hit rate on the MM era for me. But that was better than BCSL/SC/TOT for me so I don't put it down to MP leaving at all.

D/T has won me back, tho. Really enjoyable record.

If i have one opinion about them now - they need to carry on loosening up and enjoying themselves. Cut the metronome, keep in some flaws, make it as human as possible. I'm very optimistic about them since D/T.  :)

I have pretty much all the live video releases by DT and Transatlantic / Neal Morse band.  The one thing that stands out is both Transatlantic and Neal Morse Band are simply having WAAAAY more fun than the DT guys when playing live.  I believe that was one of the reasons MP said he wanted a break, was he realized he was enjoying playing with other bands more than playing with DT. 

I will give the new album a listen on Spotify or something.  I need to give it a chance rather than dismiss it.  I don't often listen to Spotify so it didn't occur to me but I'll give it a listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on February 08, 2020, 04:37:43 PM
Fun is where it's at, right? To quote a Devin Townsend song "it's just entertainment, folks". Who wants a stiff, uptight band? Not me, anyway.

D/T isn't a perfect album but it is a great, enduring listen, afaic. Just has some of that magic, joyous quality.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on February 08, 2020, 04:41:45 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on February 08, 2020, 02:03:52 AM
I can understand the opinion. There's only about 25% hit rate on the MM era for me. But that was better than BCSL/SC/TOT for me so I don't put it down to MP leaving at all.

D/T has won me back, tho. Really enjoyable record.

If i have one opinion about them now - they need to carry on loosening up and enjoying themselves. Cut the metronome, keep in some flaws, make it as human as possible. I'm very optimistic about them since D/T.  :)

I simply miss the unpredictability of the Portnoy era. On those classic songs it felt like anything could happen at any moment-  twist and turns, transitions, shifts in mood, jazzy instrumental sections. Even BCSL had some of that. There’s nothing wrong with songs like Enemy Inside, On the Backs of Angels, Untethered Angel, Paralyzed, Looking Glass etc etc but there’s just not much to sink my teeth into either. And the band seems more and more committed to making songs like that. It’s not all Portnoy, though. ADoTE also has some of that kinetic spark, but the last three albums just haven’t had the staying power/interest for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on February 08, 2020, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: MHStrawn on February 08, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
I have pretty much all the live video releases by DT and Transatlantic / Neal Morse band.  The one thing that stands out is both Transatlantic and Neal Morse Band are simply having WAAAAY more fun than the DT guys when playing live.  I believe that was one of the reasons MP said he wanted a break, was he realized he was enjoying playing with other bands more than playing with DT.

Aside from MP none of the guys ever looked like they were having much "fun", least of all JM, he hasn't moved from that spot since 1988.  So the remaining DT guys are the same as when MP was in DT so saying they don't look like they're having "fun" doesn't work since they look the same.

Yes, MP was/is awesome at having "fun", and now that we don't see him with DT we realize we miss that aspect of the live show, but to say the rest of the guys aren't having "fun" is just wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Bentower on February 09, 2020, 05:32:08 AM
It's pretty obvious to me that the band is currently enjoying themselves on stage. Well okay, James less so at times when the struggling becomes apparent.
There are more ways than one to vibe with the music after all. It doesn't always manifest in an animated "rock show" nor does it need to. I think the way JM, for example gets into it is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on February 09, 2020, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 08, 2020, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: MHStrawn on February 08, 2020, 03:49:55 PM
I have pretty much all the live video releases by DT and Transatlantic / Neal Morse band.  The one thing that stands out is both Transatlantic and Neal Morse Band are simply having WAAAAY more fun than the DT guys when playing live.  I believe that was one of the reasons MP said he wanted a break, was he realized he was enjoying playing with other bands more than playing with DT.

Aside from MP none of the guys ever looked like they were having much "fun", least of all JM, he hasn't moved from that spot since 1988.  So the remaining DT guys are the same as when MP was in DT so saying they don't look like they're having "fun" doesn't work since they look the same.

Yes, MP was/is awesome at having "fun", and now that we don't see him with DT we realize we miss that aspect of the live show, but to say the rest of the guys aren't having "fun" is just wrong.

Completely agree. MP is a showman cut out of the same mold as Keith Moon. JR, JP and even MM seem to have a laser focus on their very complicated parts and I mention MM because he sometimes plays righty and sometimes lefty so he's always thinking a couple of bars ahead if that makes sense. And JM is who he is. I can't fault him for not jumping around and acting like he's something he's not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 09, 2020, 12:48:32 PM
MM sure seems like he's having fun live.

And James definitely does with MP out of the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KidInTheDark666 on February 09, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
Yeah, Mangini is definitely the happiest looking dude on the stage these days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 09, 2020, 01:47:07 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2020, 12:48:32 PM
And James definitely does with MP out of the band.

 :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on February 10, 2020, 05:50:01 AM
Quote
Yes, MP was/is awesome at having "fun", and now that we don't see him with DT we realize we miss that aspect of the live show, but to say the rest of the guys aren't having "fun" is just wrong.
May I add that after MP's departure not only the music suffered but most of all the live shows..the presentation of the stage, the set lists, even the tributes like the most recent of Neil Peart's..the DT that I've known and loved had this kind of atmosphere..the unpredictability, the jams and the presentation of the band on stage..also let's not forget that the guys always played and still play long and demanding pieces of music..so they can't be all like they're rocking out all the time..but yeah that's what I miss the most..if only Petrucci unacknowledged that it was not something that one guy did but a unique feature and strength of the band he should reconsider some things about their live presentation and performance...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lethean on February 10, 2020, 08:59:06 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2020, 12:48:32 PM
MM sure seems like he's having fun live.

And James definitely does with MP out of the band.

I also think JP looks like he's having fun and has been more active on stage than he was before. 

To me the band seems happy and having fun and that is conveyed to the audience as well.  There's more than one way to have fun and more than one kind of positive energy.  When I'm at a DT show, I always feel energized, moved, and have a great time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 10, 2020, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: PetFish on February 08, 2020, 10:03:45 PM
Aside from MP none of the guys ever looked like they were having much "fun", least of all JM, he hasn't moved from that spot since 1988.  So the remaining DT guys are the same as when MP was in DT so saying they don't look like they're having "fun" doesn't work since they look the same.

LOL about the JM comments (because they're so true).  And I'd be hard pressed to find a guy (at least in DT's sub-genre) who looks he's having more fun than JR.  And, yeah, JLB and JP look pretty much the same as they have for the nearly 30 years that I've been following the band.


Quote from: TAC on February 09, 2020, 12:48:32 PM
MM sure seems like he's having fun live.

Yup.  That too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

It fits, and without product placement, what would you have done?

That's one of the best moments on The Astonishing. The music makes you feel just how elated and astonished (couldn't help it) Faythe was when she discovered the music player. Having heard Music other than The NOMACS, it also describes why she fell for Gabriel. Without the Music Player, she wouldn't have fell for him and saved Ravenskill. It's a reason why she is named Faythe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

???  Why would you?  It's a great moment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

???  Why would you?  It's a great moment.

Exactly my point.

I guess it's just the ones who dislike it talking about it more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 07, 2020, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

???  Why would you?  It's a great moment.

Exactly my point.

I guess it's just the ones who dislike it talking about it more.

I especially like the Peter Cetera part right after that.  One of the several moments that bring me back to the good ol' 80's
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on April 08, 2020, 10:37:03 AM
Not too controversial, but I was just watching the Yellow Matter Custard dvd and it’s amazing now natural and good MP is at frontman banter. Nothing awkward or geeky or cheesy or lame. I can kinda see why he felt he needed to be kind of a frontman in DT. James continues to be super awkward after all these years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 08, 2020, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 07, 2020, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

???  Why would you?  It's a great moment.

Exactly my point.

I guess it's just the ones who dislike it talking about it more.

I especially like the Peter Cetera part right after that.  One of the several moments that bring me back to the good ol' 80's

Where in the hell is a Peter Cetera moment, because I have never thought at any point "geez, this part blows.".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on April 08, 2020, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 08, 2020, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 07, 2020, 06:12:30 PM
I especially like the Peter Cetera part right after that.  One of the several moments that bring me back to the good ol' 80's

Where in the hell is a Peter Cetera moment, because I have never thought at any point "geez, this part blows.".

 :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 08, 2020, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: TAC on April 08, 2020, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 07, 2020, 06:12:30 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 07, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 07, 2020, 09:30:04 AM
Act of Faythe, I don't have a problem at all with the line "My Music Player."

???  Why would you?  It's a great moment.

Exactly my point.

I guess it's just the ones who dislike it talking about it more.

I especially like the Peter Cetera part right after that.  One of the several moments that bring me back to the good ol' 80's

Where in the hell is a Peter Cetera moment, because I have never thought at any point "geez, this part blows.".


 :lol  3:37-3:44.  It's the way that James has his voice doubled and the note succession.  It sounds a lot like "The Glory of Love" by Peter Cetera.  At least to me it does.

It's very short, and I don't know if they did it on purpose or not.  But since there are some other 80's music nuggets in the album, I thought that maybe it was.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on April 08, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 08, 2020, 12:05:17 PM
:lol  3:37-3:44.  It's the way that James has his voice doubled and the note succession.  It sounds a lot like "The Glory of Love" by Peter Cetera.  At least to me it does.

I like you
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on April 08, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: Indiscipline on April 08, 2020, 12:23:06 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 08, 2020, 12:05:17 PM
:lol  3:37-3:44.  It's the way that James has his voice doubled and the note succession.  It sounds a lot like "The Glory of Love" by Peter Cetera.  At least to me it does.

I like you

 :lol

It is quite the Indiscipline thing to do, innit!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 08, 2020, 12:54:06 PM
 :tup  Glad I could bring up something of value.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on April 08, 2020, 12:57:46 PM
Brother Lion, if you haven't already you should read Indisciplines Scenes From My Memory (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=17796.0) thread. He is the timestamp King...or Prince, as it were.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on April 24, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on April 24, 2020, 04:19:57 PM
You know what, it's up there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on April 24, 2020, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Elite on April 24, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Agreed.
Well, I wouldn't call it the best since Octavarium, but overall, it's one of Dream Theater's greater songs. Easily in my Top 30-40. I have no idea why people seem to dislike it so much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 24, 2020, 06:41:07 PM
Quote from: Elite on April 24, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

I'm not sure I would go that far, but I agree, it's pretty good.  It took me a while to warm up to it when it first came out, but now I always get excited when it comes on in one of my play lists.  It is definitely a great song!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on April 24, 2020, 07:10:18 PM
The Enemy Inside is somewhere in my top 50. I think it's a kickass song, but I wouldn't call it the best since Octavarium. In the 2006-2013 timeframe, I could name The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, In The Presence Of Enemies 1 & 2, A Nightmare To Remember, Wither, The Shattered Fortress, The Count Of Tuscany, On The Backs Of Angels, Lost Not Forgotten, Far From Heaven, Breaking All Illusions, The Bigger Picture, Surrender To Reason, and Illumination Theory as examples of songs I'd put above it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 27, 2020, 09:43:49 AM
Quote from: Elite on April 24, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 27, 2020, 10:10:38 AM
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Another one: I prefer The Silent Man entirely acoustically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on April 27, 2020, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 27, 2020, 10:10:38 AM
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums)

You have ears, you are entitled to have whatever opinion you like.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 27, 2020, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 27, 2020, 10:10:38 AM
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 27, 2020, 11:37:53 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on April 27, 2020, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on April 27, 2020, 10:10:38 AM
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.
yeah that's great too in that respect (of course, and it has been even more so when I saw them play it live twice), I wanted to include it originally. Simply forgot about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
While I think the last four albums are all great, I don’t think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 27, 2020, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
While I think the last four albums are all great, I don’t think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 albums post 2000 that I would take over FII.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 27, 2020, 01:43:56 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
While I think the last four albums are all great, I don’t think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

So...albums like SDOIT and Octavarium don't "stand up to" WDADU?


Quote from: TAC on April 27, 2020, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
While I think the last four albums are all great, I don’t think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 7 albums post 2000 that I would take over either WDADU or FII.

Fixed for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:58:13 PM
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 27, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:58:13 PM
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

So do I.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on April 29, 2020, 06:35:22 AM
I find WDADU to be very underrated generally. But I wouldn't go as far as you guys on this one  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 29, 2020, 07:29:00 AM
I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on April 29, 2020, 07:35:51 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on April 29, 2020, 07:29:00 AM
I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.

Totally agree. I consider WDADRu a top DT album. I love those songs. And the original has its charm too.  The Score version of Afterlife is incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 02:50:18 PM
Quote from: DTA on April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on April 29, 2020, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 02:50:18 PM
Quote from: DTA on April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I agree with you, production doesn't really matter to me all that much, unless it's a really BAD one.

Really?  I thought James knocked it out of the park.  To my ear, he sounds in tune and all around fantastic.  But my ears are probably not the best judge of sound quality anyway.  Too much Metallica for too long. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 03:09:40 PM
I could be remembering it wrong. I haven't listened to it since it was new. So like...15 years?  ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 29, 2020, 03:30:49 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 02:50:18 PM
Quote from: DTA on April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I'm mostly on board with this.  The live version of Another Hand/TKH on Live at the Marquee is the definitive recording of that song.  Otherwise, give me the WDADU recordings.

As for WDADRu, I own it on DVD but not CD.  I enjoy it and watch it now and then and don't really have a problem with James's performance (or whatever changes JR might have made to KM's parts).  If I had it on CD, I probably wouldn't listen to it much.  The best thing about the DVD is the band commentary track -- particularly when JR noted that so many of JM's bass lines were very sad sounding and he asked with a genuinely concerned tone to his voice:  "Were you ok back then?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 04:43:08 PM
And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 29, 2020, 05:16:04 PM
The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on April 29, 2020, 05:17:33 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 04:43:08 PM
And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.

I took that more as MP being snarky toward JM.  And, interestingly, the way that they wrote and recorded DOT was pretty much exactly what JM was wistfully longing for in that discussion.  Of course, whereas they all had fairly young children back then, I think all of their kids are now adults.


Quote from: Evai on April 29, 2020, 05:16:04 PM
The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary

Hmmm....  It's possible I'm mixing them up, but I'm pretty sure it's in WDADRu (even if it's also in LIT).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 29, 2020, 07:20:15 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 29, 2020, 02:50:18 PM
Quote from: DTA on April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

Agreed, on both accounts, especially the second.  Jordan overplaying some of Kevin Moore's keyboard parts ruined much of the WDADR experience for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 29, 2020, 07:23:19 PM
Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on April 29, 2020, 07:25:11 PM
Not taking the bait.

Go fish elsewhere. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on April 29, 2020, 07:30:52 PM
Drat.

:ontome:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on April 30, 2020, 05:23:06 AM
Now there's a quote!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on April 30, 2020, 05:40:42 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on April 29, 2020, 07:23:19 PM
Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.
Thanks mate, I fully agree.

(this actually was what I always thought when James, Jordan and Mike respectively came on board btw, them each elevating the music. When I heard Jordan play the I/W material for the first time, I never went back to listening to Kevin Moore, as one example. As with Mike and James.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on May 07, 2020, 08:22:33 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on April 27, 2020, 01:58:13 PM
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

I would maybe put it on par with 8V, behind disc 1 of SDOIT and well above disc 2
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on May 07, 2020, 10:21:36 AM
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on May 07, 2020, 10:21:36 AM
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

I own the DVD but not the CD of Score.  The part with the orchestra is AWESOME, and that's as long as a lot of bands' full concerts.  "The Score So Far" is a really good documentary, and it's cool to have the Octavarium animation.

The rest of of, however, is very "meh" (at best).

The Root of All Evil is a good song and show opener.

IWBY is probably the worst song on 8VM

Another Won is fine for what it is.

UAGM is my least favorite or second least favorite song on I&W.

Innocence Faded is my least or second least favorite song on Awake.

Raise the Knife is a bleh song that didn't make the cut for a bottom 2-3 DT album.

TSCO is a good live song, but it's way better in the context of the full SFAM show that we have on LSFNY.

And the bonus songs aren't any better.

If UAGM isn't my least favorite song on I&W, Another Day is.

The Great Debate is a bottom 5 DT song.

Honor Thy Father is the worst song on TOT by a pretty wide margin.

Given the structure of the part of the set without the orchestra, they would have been hard-pressed to put together a set that I liked less.  Fortunately, everything else on the DVD makes it great in spite of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2020, 02:08:40 PM
^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 07, 2020, 03:09:17 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2020, 02:08:40 PM
^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^

I think the first set is great but I also think there were better choices for everything except the Majesty Demos and Scenes From a Memory. My personal setlist would have looked like...

The Root of All Evil
These Walls
Another Won
Afterlife
Take the Time
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
Lines in the Sand
The Spirit Carries On

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
The Answer Lies Within
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium

A Change of Seasons
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 03:13:22 PM
I think Bosk did a thread about the Score set list a while back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on May 07, 2020, 03:30:39 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on May 07, 2020, 10:21:36 AM
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

Statement based on how many live albums you've heard in full?



Quote from: pg1067 on April 27, 2020, 09:43:49 AM
Quote from: Elite on April 24, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586

Okay, that's fine and all. Apparently the majority (at least those who vote in the DT League) disagrees with me - hence me posting it in the controversial opinions thread.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 04:13:19 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on May 07, 2020, 10:21:36 AM
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

I own the DVD but not the CD of Score.  The part with the orchestra is AWESOME, and that's as long as a lot of bands' full concerts.  "The Score So Far" is a really good documentary, and it's cool to have the Octavarium animation.

The rest of of, however, is very "meh" (at best).


Another Won is fine for what it is.


I’m the opposite. I think the orchestra SDoIT is meh, but then again I hate the symphony + rock live craze with a passion.

Another Won on the other hand is amazing. The whole band is on fire during that song. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Myung and Portnoy so locked in with each other. I distinctively remember them playing it live in my city on that tour and the whole crowd was PUMPED by the end of it. It may sound silly but honestly it’s one of the few reasons I ever revisit Score.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 04:24:37 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
IWBY is probably the worst song on 8VM

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on May 07, 2020, 02:08:40 PM
^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^

With Hef on this. The first set is magnificent, aside from IWBY.

Quote from: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
"The Score So Far" is a really good documentary

I never thought it was more than OK. Maybe it is because by that point I had a fairly good knowledge of the band and its history so there was very little enlightening for me. It just feels like DT 101. Basic, boring stuff you'd get from the intro class on a band that doesn't have that interesting of a history. Riding the Train of Thought (from the Budokan DVD) is a much more fascinating look at the band (I recognize they are not trying to be the same type of documentary,)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 07, 2020, 04:27:10 PM
The first set of Score is incredible. And IWBY was fantastic live.

Unfortunately, they waste way too much time with the entire 6 D's. Thank God it's a single track so I only have to hit the skip button once.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 07, 2020, 04:52:28 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 03:13:22 PM
I think Bosk did a thread about the Score set list a while back.

I honestly don't remember.  But I know I've participated in a ton of discussion through the years.  I love what they did, overall.  But with the limitations they were playing with in terms of structure, Six Degrees really locked them into what they played.  They could have made some little tweaks here and there.  For my tastes, there are a few songs I wish were different.  But it is what it is.  Here's my quick track-by-track:

-TROAE:  This was a must-play, and was a great opener anyway.  Good call having it in.
-IWBY:  As the lead single, and a song they had been hoping would get some mainstream radio play, it was also a must.  I don't love it, but it's fine.
-Another Won:  Must-play, as it was being played all tour.  And really cool to get a Majesty tune.
-Afterlife:  Perhaps my least favorite from WDADU.  Anything but this would have been better (other than TOWHTSTS, which would not have gotten played anyway due to length).  Wish they would have done either Status Seeker or AFIL.  The former would have saved them a little over a minute.
-UAGM:  Not my favorite, but it was a good performance that made me like the song a bit more.  And I like it more than the two shorter songs that aren't WFS.  PMU would have been a great "classic" to throw the fans that would have gone nicely with the 20 year anniversary theme, and if they subbed Status Seeker, that would give the extra minute needed to include this one.  BUT it was included on their last live release, so probably a no-go.
-Innocence Faded:  Nice, because it was such a rarity.  But beyond that, there are better songs of comparable length.  6:00 or CIAW are comparable length.  But no gripes from me because, again, this song was such a rarity at the time.
-Raise the Knife:  SO glad they did this one.
-TSCO:  We didn't need this.  But I get why it is there and won't mess with it.

-Six Degrees:  No complaints.  It was amazing that they undertook doing this.
-Vacant:  Man--such a good song.  But I wanted something that rocked from this album.  Wish they could have kept this and found a way to to SoC, but it just wouldn't fit.
-The Answer Lies Within:  Wish they would have just cut it.  Buys them an extra 5:30. 
-The last three songs were amazing and I wouldn't touch them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 07, 2020, 04:27:10 PM
Unfortunately, they waste way too much time with the entire 6 D's. Thank God it's a single track so I only have to hit the skip button once.

- TROAE:  Great opener, we are off and running... (A+)
- IWBY:  And then you give us this. (D)
- Another Won:  Great inclusion and I am generally happy leaving the Majesty songs on the shelf (B+)
- Afterlife: Maybe my favorite from WD&DU, and definitely a stellar performance of it (A)
- UAGM: A solid rocker, best choice in this slot (B)
- Innocence Faded: Love this song, so glad it got included (A)
- Raise the Knife:  The live version of this is better than 90% of FII and in my mind the best song/performance to fill this slot. Certainly a bold choice. (A)
- TSCO: Better in the context of the whole album as someone else said, but a good set closer (B)

- Six Degrees: See TACs quote (F)
- Vacant:  Love this song, but it didn't impress me here. Maybe I need something to pick me up after the drag of SDoiT (C)
- The Answer Lies Within:  This isn't it either - though I like the song on the album (D)
- Sacrificed Sons: Back in business! (B+)
- Octavarium: No words (A+)
- Metropolis: (A)

I only have one real complain with the setlist, which in any other situation is a non-issue, but when the complaint is 42 minutes long, it can't be discarded. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 07, 2020, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 04:13:19 PM
I think the orchestra SDoIT is meh, but then again I hate the symphony + rock live craze with a passion.

Another Won on the other hand is amazing. The whole band is on fire during that song. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Myung and Portnoy so locked in with each other. I distinctively remember them playing it live in my city on that tour and the whole crowd was PUMPED by the end of it. It may sound silly but honestly it’s one of the few reasons I ever revisit Score.

With respect to Another Won, I recall them jumping into it and wondering what it was.  Sometime during the period between I&W and Awake, I acquired an (Italian?) import CD that had some live material along with The Majesty Demos.  I listened to it a few times, but wasn't at all familiar with those songs.  I figured out what they were doing, but the song has never impressed me too much.

The orchestra thing is an interesting topic.  Back in the 80s, I always thought it would be really cool for certain bands to play with orchestra (I really wanted Rush to do it).  I vaguely knew that ELP had done it, but I don't recall anyone else.  Metallica's S&M was really the first one, and I liked that a lot.  I also like when Yes and Styx did it.  But yeah, it's probably a bit played out now, and a lot of bands that shouldn't do it have done it.


Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 04:24:37 PM

I never thought it ["The Score So Far"] was more than OK. Maybe it is because by that point I had a fairly good knowledge of the band and its history so there was very little enlightening for me. It just feels like DT 101. Basic, boring stuff you'd get from the intro class on a band that doesn't have that interesting of a history. Riding the Train of Thought (from the Budokan DVD) is a much more fascinating look at the band (I recognize they are not trying to be the same type of documentary,)

Opposite for me.  I had sort of lost touch with DT in the very late 90s and early 2000s.  I missed the FII, SFAM and SDOIT tours (SDOIT because my son had just been born, but I have no idea about the others).  By the time Score came out, my personal situation was such that I could immerse myself in the band again, and it was really good stuff.  I only recently (i.e., within the last 5 years) got Live at Budokan on DVD, so I've probably only seen "Riding the Train of Thought" a couple times, but I don't remember it having much substance beyond what was going on at that time.


Quote from: bosk1 on May 07, 2020, 04:52:28 PM
I honestly don't remember.  But I know I've participated in a ton of discussion through the years.  I love what they did, overall.  But with the limitations they were playing with in terms of structure, Six Degrees really locked them into what they played.  They could have made some little tweaks here and there.  For my tastes, there are a few songs I wish were different.  But it is what it is.

I don't remember if it was a dedicated thread or a discussion within another thread, but you basically challenged folks to create a set-list that was subject to the restrictions MP used when creating the Score set-list.  I recall you and I debating a bit about my choices.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 07, 2020, 06:31:58 PM
I thought the Score documentary was great, especially the footage at Berklee.

JP has the best quote ever.

"It was hard enough talking my parents into letting me go to music school, but then I had to talk them into letting me drop out" (close enough)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 06:43:31 PM
Yeah that JP quote was great. It was neat seeing them go back to the college, and the interviews were insightful, it's just not something I would ever want to watch more than once. I enjoyed the Budokan documentary more because it was neat to see their life on the road.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 07, 2020, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 06:43:31 PM
Yeah that JP quote was great. It was neat seeing them go back to the college, and the interviews were insightful, it's just not something I would ever want to watch more than once. I enjoyed the Budokan documentary more because it was neat to see their life on the road.

I like them both and while I haven't watched either in a long time, I have watched them both many times. They're enjoyable because they seem like such regular guys, so enthusiastic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

I always liked how Rush did their live albums back in the day. Wait until there were four more albums and then make a live album consisting of the recent material. I’m one of those weird people that doesn’t really care if a live album isn’t a complete concert. Just make a great album where the songs flow. And I would prefer if it wasn’t three and a half hours. I’ll never have time to listen to all of that!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 07, 2020, 07:31:24 PM
I'm a "full concert" live album guy. If not, what's the point?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 07, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

I think that's actually fairly accurate.  But I also don't think it's a bad thing at all, and neither did the band.  "Forced" is just kind of the nature of what they wanted to do, and the constraints they had to work with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 07, 2020, 09:56:44 PM
Okay, but weren't those constraints self-imposed?

The first set of the Score set list doesn't look great on paper, but it mostly works pretty well when watching the live show.  The second set is another story.  Nobody told them they had to play all of the Six Degrees suite, and while I like Vacant, it being the only Train of Thought representation at an anniversary show was pretty bizarre, and don't even get me started on The Answer Lies Within.. :lol :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
Huh
I think the setlist is phenomenal. Six Degrees AND Octavarium? Worth the price of admission alone.

Root of All Evil, great renditions of Afterlife, UaGM, Innocence Faded, Sacrificed Sons...
Another Won and Raise the Knife were nice deep cuts for the hardcore fans.

I could have done without Walk Beside You, Answer Lies Within and Spirit Carries On but no setlist is perfect.

That tour was a great time to see DT, good setlists all around and something for everyone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 07, 2020, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
Huh
I think the setlist is phenomenal. Six Degrees AND Octavarium? Worth the price of admission alone.

Root of All Evil, great renditions of Afterlife, UaGM, Innocence Faded, Sacrificed Sons...
Another Won and Raise the Knife were nice deep cuts for the hardcore fans.

I could have done without Walk Beside You, Answer Lies Within and Spirit Carries On but no setlist is perfect.

That tour was a great time to see DT, good setlists all around and something for everyone.

I agree that the set lists were mostly pretty awesome from 2000-2005, before they started getting watered down with Constant Motion, Forsaken and other average songs from the later albums from the 00's, but it felt like the Score set list was one of the least best from the entire tour. I still remember getting online to see the set list later that night and I was one of many whose reaction was, "That was the set list?"  Granted, the first set really is better than it looks on paper, but when you go back and see what some of the other set lists looked like on that tour, it's hard to not be underwhelmed by the Score one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 10:09:43 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 07, 2020, 10:04:04 PM
I still remember getting online to see the set list later that night and I was one of many whose reaction was, "That was the set list?"  Granted, the first set really is better than it looks on paper...

I had that reaction as well, and saying it works better than it does on paper is a good assessment.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 10:24:58 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 07, 2020, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
Huh
I think the setlist is phenomenal. Six Degrees AND Octavarium? Worth the price of admission alone.

Root of All Evil, great renditions of Afterlife, UaGM, Innocence Faded, Sacrificed Sons...
Another Won and Raise the Knife were nice deep cuts for the hardcore fans.

I could have done without Walk Beside You, Answer Lies Within and Spirit Carries On but no setlist is perfect.

That tour was a great time to see DT, good setlists all around and something for everyone.

I agree that the set lists were mostly pretty awesome from 2000-2005, before they started getting watered down with Constant Motion, Forsaken and other average songs from the later albums from the 00's, but it felt like the Score set list was one of the least best from the entire tour. I still remember getting online to see the set list later that night and I was one of many whose reaction was, "That was the set list?"  Granted, the first set really is better than it looks on paper, but when you go back and see what some of the other set lists looked like on that tour, it's hard to not be underwhelmed by the Score one.

Fair enough; it’s one of the weaker setlists from that tour, Id agree with that.

I saw them on St Pattys Day ‘06 and they played all the straight rockers/heavy shit (for DT anyway), Take the Time, Mirror/Lie, Peruvian Skies, About to Crash (Reprise), As I Am. Portnoy was ready to rock when he drew that set up. Still maybe the best I’ve ever seen them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 07, 2020, 11:27:35 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 07, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
That tour was a great time to see DT, good setlists all around and something for everyone.

While I don't have OVM as one of my favorite DT albums, I agree that it was a great live era for DT. To me, two of the weakest (not counting the Majesty/WDADU eras) were the FII and BC&SL tours.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 08, 2020, 01:06:30 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

That's literally Mike Portnoy's publicly admitted policy for creating a setlist for a show that would end up being recorded. It's the very premise for a to-be-recorded show.

Quote from: KevShmev on May 07, 2020, 09:56:44 PM
Nobody told them they had to play all of the Six Degrees suite, and while I like Vacant, it being the only Train of Thought representation at an anniversary show was pretty bizarre, and don't even get me started on The Answer Lies Within.. :lol :lol

Well, they had an orchestra, they might as well use it for songs that are more suitable for orchestral contributions. No way I want to sit through This Dying Soul played exactly like it is, but with the violins doubling the guitars.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on May 08, 2020, 01:38:26 AM
Endless Sacrifice could have been made pretty awesome with an orchestra I bet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 08, 2020, 04:27:51 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 08, 2020, 01:06:30 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

That's literally Mike Portnoy's publicly admitted policy for creating a setlist for a show that would end up being recorded. It's the very premise for a to-be-recorded show.


I get that. And I remember those days. My point is I would prefer a live album (and the setlist for that matter) to be more about a great musical experience more than being about checking off boxes for songs that have been on a live album. The recent tours have had songs repeated multiple times (As I Am, Spirit, BAI, PMU) and that’s ok. They know they are great live and they fit well.

I’m not wanting to make this about bashing Mike, but his approach with this is like what has been discussed in the thread over in GMD. It’s more about quantity than quality with him. Like the statement he made recently...something about how DT has out out 4 albums at the same time that he has made like 40. I mean...that’s it right there lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 08:35:56 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 08, 2020, 04:27:51 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 08, 2020, 01:06:30 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

That's literally Mike Portnoy's publicly admitted policy for creating a setlist for a show that would end up being recorded. It's the very premise for a to-be-recorded show.


I get that. And I remember those days. My point is I would prefer a live album (and the setlist for that matter) to be more about a great musical experience more than being about checking off boxes for songs that have been on a live album.

Then, respectfully, I think you missed the point.  In Mike's mind, giving the fans "new" songs that have not yet been recorded IS a great musical experience.  That isn't the same thing as "checking off boxes."  Not at all.  And I think most who were at that show, and most that still enjoy listening to/watching Score, DO consider it a "great musical experience."

Quote from: Trav86 on May 08, 2020, 04:27:51 AM
I’m not wanting to make this about bashing Mike, but his approach with this is like what has been discussed in the thread over in GMD. It’s more about quantity than quality with him.

Not really, unless one's view is so limited as to think that quality and quantity are somehow mutually exclusive.  They aren't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 08, 2020, 09:14:33 AM
I didn’t miss the point. I just disagree.

And I don’t think my view is “limited”. I just think that making 40 albums doesn’t matter if they’re mostly mediocre. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 08, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
The whole "let's play stuff we haven't played recently" "policy" is one thing I always disliked about DT shows in the 2000s, and I'm with Trav86 in disagreeing that busting out songs that didn't make the cut the first ten times makes for a "great musical experience."  DT concerts are always enjoyable, but the set lists for the SC and BC&SL shows I saw were probably the most disappointing in the band's history.

There is and always has been a VERY vocal component of DT fans who loved MP's rotating set list thing, but I think at least as many fans didn't like it.


Quote from: TAC on May 07, 2020, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 06:43:31 PM
Yeah that JP quote was great. It was neat seeing them go back to the college, and the interviews were insightful, it's just not something I would ever want to watch more than once. I enjoyed the Budokan documentary more because it was neat to see their life on the road.

I like them both and while I haven't watched either in a long time, I have watched them both many times. They're enjoyable because they seem like such regular guys, so enthusiastic.

My sentiment exactly, and it's amplified a bit for me since I'm the same age as JM, MP and JP.  It's also interesting to me now since I have a kid who will soon be applying to go to Berklee.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 08, 2020, 10:17:19 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 08:35:56 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 08, 2020, 04:27:51 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 08, 2020, 01:06:30 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 07, 2020, 07:29:28 PM
The Score setlist always felt like “here’s a bunch of songs that haven’t been on a live album/ DVD”. I like most of the songs... it just seemed like forced. I don’t know if that’s the right word. I’m not sure how else to explain it.

That's literally Mike Portnoy's publicly admitted policy for creating a setlist for a show that would end up being recorded. It's the very premise for a to-be-recorded show.


I get that. And I remember those days. My point is I would prefer a live album (and the setlist for that matter) to be more about a great musical experience more than being about checking off boxes for songs that have been on a live album.

Then, respectfully, I think you missed the point.  In Mike's mind, giving the fans "new" songs that have not yet been recorded IS a great musical experience.  That isn't the same thing as "checking off boxes."  Not at all.  And I think most who were at that show, and most that still enjoy listening to/watching Score, DO consider it a "great musical experience."

In my opinion, this is absolutely true.  Score is one of their greatest live recordings if not THE greatest.  Regardless of the setlist choices, the songs were executed and performed nearly flawlessly.  Definitely a quality product.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Just watched Score again for the first time in a long time.  I have to say that, watching it now, and putting it in context of the fact that they wanted to present a special 20th anniversary show and also feature the new material, I have zero quibbles with any of the set choices, save The Answer Lies Within.  The set does drag a bit after Six Degrees with two slow songs in a row.  Vacant was a great performance.  But TALW just wasn't necessary and slowed things down too much.  Given that they ended up going past curfew as it is, I think the overall result would have been better all around if they had just cut that song. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on May 08, 2020, 02:03:07 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: TAC on May 07, 2020, 04:27:10 PM
Unfortunately, they waste way too much time with the entire 6 D's. Thank God it's a single track so I only have to hit the skip button once.

- TROAE:  Great opener, we are off and running... (A+)
- IWBY:  And then you give us this. (D)
- Another Won:  Great inclusion and I am generally happy leaving the Majesty songs on the shelf (B+)
- Afterlife: Maybe my favorite from WD&DU, and definitely a stellar performance of it (A)
- UAGM: A solid rocker, best choice in this slot (B)
- Innocence Faded: Love this song, so glad it got included (A)
- Raise the Knife:  The live version of this is better than 90% of FII and in my mind the best song/performance to fill this slot. Certainly a bold choice. (A)
- TSCO: Better in the context of the whole album as someone else said, but a good set closer (B)

- Six Degrees: See TACs quote (F)
- Vacant:  Love this song, but it didn't impress me here. Maybe I need something to pick me up after the drag of SDoiT (C)
- The Answer Lies Within:  This isn't it either - though I like the song on the album (D)
- Sacrificed Sons: Back in business! (B+)
- Octavarium: No words (A+)
- Metropolis: (A)

I only have one real complain with the setlist, which in any other situation is a non-issue, but when the complaint is 42 minutes long, it can't be discarded.

Literally almost 100% my exact thoughts you mind reader.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 08, 2020, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 08, 2020, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: TAC on May 07, 2020, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 07, 2020, 06:43:31 PM
Yeah that JP quote was great. It was neat seeing them go back to the college, and the interviews were insightful, it's just not something I would ever want to watch more than once. I enjoyed the Budokan documentary more because it was neat to see their life on the road.

I like them both and while I haven't watched either in a long time, I have watched them both many times. They're enjoyable because they seem like such regular guys, so enthusiastic.

My sentiment exactly, and it's amplified a bit for me since I'm the same age as JM, MP and JP.  It's also interesting to me now since I have a kid who will soon be applying to go to Berklee.

When they first announced the Ytsejam releases, I thought for sure they'd released the Berklee '94 show. Considering where it was, plus the fact that Derek went there too. The setlist included both Innocence Faded and TOWHTSTS before they were dropped.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 10, 2020, 01:52:07 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 08, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Just watched Score again for the first time in a long time.  I have to say that, watching it now, and putting it in context of the fact that they wanted to present a special 20th anniversary show and also feature the new material, I have zero quibbles with any of the set choices, save The Answer Lies Within.  The set does drag a bit after Six Degrees with two slow songs in a row.  Vacant was a great performance.  But TALW just wasn't necessary and slowed things down too much.  Given that they ended up going past curfew as it is, I think the overall result would have been better all around if they had just cut that song.
Yes, it slowed things down with Vacant as a prelude, but honestly I don’t think it detracted from the overall performance.  TALW is a beautiful song and it’s short enough to not be an interruption.  I’m glad they included it in the setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on May 10, 2020, 02:33:34 AM
After playing for 42 minutes straight (even with all the mellow sections and soft passages), I don't really blame them for catching a breath with a 3 minutes orchestral song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on May 21, 2020, 10:54:17 AM
Happened to catch some of the Dark Side of the Moon dvd DT did, and JP and JR look WAY cooler on that thing than they do today. Apologies to fans of crazy beards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on May 21, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on May 21, 2020, 10:54:17 AM
Happened to catch some of the Dark Side of the Moon dvd DT did, and JP and JR look WAY cooler on that thing than they do today. Apologies to fans of crazy beards.
It's okay, we can't all expect a no-beard to know what he's talking about.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on May 21, 2020, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on May 21, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on May 21, 2020, 10:54:17 AM
Happened to catch some of the Dark Side of the Moon dvd DT did, and JP and JR look WAY cooler on that thing than they do today. Apologies to fans of crazy beards.
It's okay, we can't all expect a no-beard to know what he's talking about.  ;)

 :lol, Yep.  Growing a beard and recognizing it's supreme value is a fine and sofisticated art form.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 26, 2020, 03:11:05 PM
Pull Me Under is one of my favorite DT songs. There...I said it!
Also...Tom Sawyer is probably my favorite Rush song and Jump is my favorite Van Halen song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 26, 2020, 04:06:29 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 26, 2020, 03:11:05 PM
Pull Me Under is one of my favorite DT songs. There...I said it!

Haha only on this forum is that controversial.

There’s a reason Pull Me Under put them on the map; it’s just a damn good song. Even my friends who either hate or, at best, are indifferent towards DT like “Pull Me Under”.

I’ll admit but I’m over the song, but it got my attention and made me a fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 26, 2020, 06:11:24 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 26, 2020, 04:06:29 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 26, 2020, 03:11:05 PM
Pull Me Under is one of my favorite DT songs. There...I said it!

Haha only on this forum is that controversial.

There’s a reason Pull Me Under put them on the map; it’s just a damn good song. Even my friends who either hate or, at best, are indifferent towards DT like “Pull Me Under”.

I’ll admit but I’m over the song, but it got my attention and made me a fan.

This, for sure.

Hearing PMU on the radio in 1992 was sort of a holy grail moment.  Queensryche got close but then backed away pretty significantly with Empire (which, for me, was a disappointment after O:M).

Fates Warning came the closest to a perfect blend of prog and metal, but they also backed away a bit with Parallels (even though I always have loved that album).

But PMU made me think, "wait.  Good metal isn't dead, and there's someone brand new doing it!"  And then I got the album and heard that there were other songs that took things to another level.  It was incredible.

PMU is still a great song.  It only gets looked down on a bit because they've done stuff that's even better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on June 25, 2020, 08:20:44 PM
At Wit's End is a top 15 DT song for me (Probably 15th, but still). This may be because the album is really new an-oh wait it's over one year old and I still love it. I like it even more than when I heard it for the first time. What a tune.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 25, 2020, 09:57:09 PM
Not controversial to me! I love it as well!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on June 26, 2020, 07:18:10 AM
I'm just not hearing what everyone else is hearing with At Wit's End. It's a good song, but I'm seeing it make top 10/20 lists and wondering what I'm missing. It'd probably rank around the middle of DOT for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 26, 2020, 09:53:55 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on June 25, 2020, 08:20:44 PM
At Wit's End is a top 15 DT song for me (Probably 15th, but still). This may be because the album is really new an-oh wait it's over one year old and I still love it. I like it even more than when I heard it for the first time. What a tune.

Given what I've read here in the year-plus since the album was released, I don't think this is a particularly controversial opinion.


Quote from: DTA on June 26, 2020, 07:18:10 AM
I'm just not hearing what everyone else is hearing with At Wit's End. It's a good song, but I'm seeing it make top 10/20 lists and wondering what I'm missing. It'd probably rank around the middle of DOT for me.

Same with me.  So many folks seem to make a big deal about it.  I think it's fine, but there's nothing that really elevates it into a top-anything for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 12:37:54 PM
For me At Wits End has a few things going for it.  1.  I think it's very interesting musically and vocally.  There's a lot to it, which I like.  2.  The lyrics are some of Labrie's best in my view.  3. Labrie's vocals combined with JP's solo, is emotionally powerful.  All that comes together to make a really awesome song.  At least for me it does.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on June 26, 2020, 01:43:32 PM
Agree on all the above points. Plus, I think it has a pretty unique song structure for DT, in that they don't come back to rehash an earlier section of the song at any point. It's multi-phased and no phase overstays its welcome IMO. Also, that "coda" is rather lovely, I just wish maybe other parts of the song were more fleshed out to make it more impactful.

That being said, I don't know if I'd put it in my top 20 of DT songs. It is certainly very solid throughout, but to me it is missing just a little something to really propel to greatness.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on June 26, 2020, 03:08:11 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on June 26, 2020, 01:43:32 PM
Agree on all the above points. Plus, I think it has a pretty unique song structure for DT, in that they don't come back to rehash an earlier section of the song at any point. It's multi-phased and no phase overstays its welcome IMO. Also, that "coda" is rather lovely, I just wish maybe other parts of the song were more fleshed out to make it more impactful.

That being said, I don't know if I'd put it in my top 20 of DT songs. It is certainly very solid throughout, but to me it is missing just a little something to really propel to greatness.

Yeah, I see that.  It's not in my top 10 either and maybe not even in my top 15 or 20, but since DT has so many songs and so many albums, that is still a high ranking.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 26, 2020, 10:55:01 PM
At Wits End (and Barstool Warrior) are the two best songs DT have written since ADTOE, and subsequently, the only two songs I really revisit from D/T.

AWE’s only flaws are some awkward drumming from Mangini, especially during the “Maculate...” section and the fade out/fade in. If I put my “producer hat” on I would have just let Petrucci go wild for the final two minutes of the song, or put the song at the end of the album with the fade.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 28, 2020, 07:06:50 AM
At this point I would really like to see them do an acoustic/chilled out album. The way they did the intimate shows in ‘98. But with older songs, newer songs, and maybe mix in b-side tracks like Speak To Me. Studio or live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 28, 2020, 01:01:24 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on June 28, 2020, 07:06:50 AM
At this point I would really like to see them do an acoustic/chilled out album. The way they did the intimate shows in ‘98. But with older songs, newer songs, and maybe mix in b-side tracks like Speak To Me. Studio or live.

That would be a nice idea for a bonus disc for the next regular album. A companion CD with, say, 2-3 new acoustic tracks, a couple of covers and another couple of acoustic versions of songs from the new album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 28, 2020, 01:34:50 PM
I am cool with the idea of the acoustic set/alternate versions.

But no more cover songs. Ever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 28, 2020, 02:03:21 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 28, 2020, 01:34:50 PM
But no more cover songs. Ever.

This X100000.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 28, 2020, 03:43:53 PM
Yeah, no covers. Please.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2020, 07:30:31 PM
I'm totally game for covers, as long as they aren't carbon copies of the originals (which, unfortunately, most DT covers are), and that they would be bonus material, like what they did for BCaSL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 28, 2020, 07:48:48 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2020, 07:30:31 PM
I'm totally game for covers, as long as they aren't carbon copies of the originals (which, unfortunately, most DT covers are), and that they would be bonus material, like what they did for BCaSL.

Right. Those covers were amazing.
Except for the pointless Lark Aspics (whaterever) and I wish To Tame A Land was actually recorded in the BC&SL sessions. At least I wished they'd have redone the vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on June 29, 2020, 08:02:45 PM
Quote from: Mr. Crabs on June 28, 2020, 07:48:48 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 28, 2020, 07:30:31 PM
I'm totally game for covers, as long as they aren't carbon copies of the originals (which, unfortunately, most DT covers are), and that they would be bonus material, like what they did for BCaSL.

Right. Those covers were amazing.
Except for the pointless Lark Aspics (whaterever) and I wish To Tame A Land was actually recorded in the BC&SL sessions. At least I wished they'd have redone the vocals.

Why? The vocals are as good as JLB could've possibly done them back then.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 29, 2020, 08:12:30 PM
To Tame A Land was recorded previously and not part of the BC&SL sessions. The vocals on the Zebra, Queen, and Rainbow covers are amazing. I wished they would have recorded the To Tame A Land vocals again as those (BC&SL) vocal recordings were 10 times stronger than what DT did on the Maiden tribute.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

The covers are good, but I respectfully disagree.  There are some stinkers on BC&SL for sure, but I think the remainder of the songs are still better than the covers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

The covers are good, but I respectfully disagree.  There are some stinkers on BC&SL for sure, but I think the remainder of the songs are still better than the covers.
That's why it's controversial  ;D

But seriously, there are only 6 songs on BC$SL, and I only like 2 of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 30, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

The covers are good, but I respectfully disagree.  There are some stinkers on BC&SL for sure, but I think the remainder of the songs are still better than the covers.
That's why it's controversial  ;D

But seriously, there are only 6 songs on BC$SL, and I only like 2 of them.

I'm on the fence here.

I like 2 1/2 of the songs on BC&SL:  Wither and TCOT are great, and TSF is ok.  TBOT is a bottom 5 or 10 DT song, and ANTR and AROP are just meh.

On the other hand, the covers CD gives us really good covers of the absolute best Rainbow and Maiden songs ever and a really cool Dixie Dregs instrumental.  The other three songs do little or nothing for me.  Queen is a hits band for me, I'm not a Crimson fan, and I've never heard the Zebra song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

The covers are good, but I respectfully disagree.  There are some stinkers on BC&SL for sure, but I think the remainder of the songs are still better than the covers.
That's why it's controversial  ;D

But seriously, there are only 6 songs on BC$SL, and I only like 2 of them.

lol!  Well then in your case the covers would be better.  What two songs do you like?  For me, there's only two songs that I don't.  And that's TSF and TBoT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 30, 2020, 02:28:39 PM
No matter how good or bad the songs are, they're still better than covers. That's why the FII era is one of my least favorites from the band, they played A LOT of pointless covers for no reason, as they already had quite a big catalog.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 30, 2020, 03:45:47 PM
When it comes to live stuff, I thought it was cool when the bands would throw snippets of covers into their own songs, but I generally was not a fan of them playing entire covers (with a few exceptions). DT has more than enough good songs of their own.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 30, 2020, 05:55:07 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 30, 2020, 02:28:39 PM
No matter how good or bad the songs are, they're still better than covers. That's why the FII era is one of my least favorites from the band, they played A LOT of pointless covers for no reason, as they already had quite a big catalog.
You *do* realize that the vast majority of the covers you see listed in the tourography that were performed during Touring Into Infinity were merely spontaneous  teasers lasting less than 30 seconds, right? There were only 8 shows that really had any significant covers performed of note: the Lubbock, TX show, the fan club show in the Netherlands, the OiaL show in Paris and the 5 shows at the end of the year. Otherwise, the worst they would do during a single show is tack on less than 3 minutes of Freebird to the end of TtT along with a few other teasers, PSkies would have the Have a Cigar and Enter Sandman bits, DS would include a part of Platt Opus during his keyboard spot, JP would include less than 2 minutes of Paradigm Shift during his guitar solo, and JP would play the melody from The Force Theme (of Star Wars) briefly before Voices. I'd say that's hardly playing "A LOT of pointless covers".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 30, 2020, 05:56:51 PM
Once a band releases an album of cover songs that could be considered better than a contemporary album of original songs, it's time for that band to hang it up and call it a career.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 01, 2020, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 30, 2020, 05:56:51 PM
Once a band releases an album of cover songs that could be considered better than a contemporary album of original songs, it's time for that band to hang it up and call it a career.

Or for the drummer to leave the band...   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on July 01, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
Ya'll crazy. I've said it before and I'll say it again- BC&SL is a good album. Huge improvement over SC.

The only "dud" is a Rite of Passage, and even that song is fairly...inoffensive.

I put only ADToE ahead of it in the Mangini era - and (this is probably controversial) on par w/ DoT. Not a great album, fairly pedestrian in places, but also some 1st tier DT moments.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Indiscipline on July 01, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
BC&SL is my least favourite DT album, but it features 3 of my favourite DT musical moments: ANTR's beautiful agony, TBOT's solo, TCOT's intro & outro.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 01, 2020, 12:50:23 PM
TBOT is a Top 12-15 DT track. Easy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 01, 2020, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:50:23 PM
TBOT is a Top 12-15 Bottom 10 DT track. Easy.

ftfy


Quote from: Volante99 on July 01, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
Ya'll crazy. I've said it before and I'll say it again- BC&SL is a good album. Huge improvement over SC.

I'll give you improvement, but "huge" is an overstatement.  BC&SL beats out FII, SC and TA for sure.  It might beat out WDADU, but that's highly questionable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on July 01, 2020, 01:07:30 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 01, 2020, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Crabs on July 01, 2020, 12:50:23 PM
TBOT is a Top 12-15 Bottom 10 Top 5 DT track. Easy.

ftfy

ftfy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on July 01, 2020, 01:11:05 PM
Lol people seem split down the middle on TBoT...


I kind of view it as middle of the road. I think its a cool song; it's proggy, the JP solo is worth the price of admission alone, and the subject matter makes it special. Musically, nothing spectacular but I can surely find 10 songs that are worse on the Astonishing alone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on July 01, 2020, 01:11:33 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on July 01, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
Ya'll crazy. I've said it before and I'll say it again- BC&SL is a good album. Huge improvement over SC.

I agree with both counts, being a good album and a huge improvement over SC.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on July 01, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
It's been a while since I've visited this forum. I seem to share a few of these controversial opinons lol.

I really like WDADU and generally prefer CD over LaBrie for most of the songs. I&W era LaBrie sang A Fortune in Lies and TKH amazingly though. I don't care for WDADRU much at all, LaBrie sounds awful there.

Someone posted that The Enemy Inside was the greatest song post Octavarium. I don't think it's the greatest but I think it's a damn good song and one of the only songs I go back to on that album.

ADToE is the only great MM era album.

Pull me Under is the weakest song on I&W (but still a great song)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 01, 2020, 05:47:25 PM
Since people were talking about BC&SL, I would say that’s probably at the bottom for me. It’s the most uninspired sounding record of their career. Of course, in my personal opinion..blah blah blah. It’s had a few great parts (specifically the ones Indiscipline mentioned).  And ironically my favorite track on there is probably Wither. I say ironic because the subject matter is about writer’s block, which the whole album sounds like it suffers from. It all sounds forced and by the numbers. And the lyrics...don’t get me  started.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on July 01, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on July 01, 2020, 12:41:10 PM
Ya'll crazy. I've said it before and I'll say it again- BC&SL is a good album. Huge improvement over SC.

The only "dud" is a Rite of Passage, and even that song is fairly...inoffensive.

Agreed.  I gave BC&SL a fresh spin a few weeks back and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.  Sure, A Rite of Passage is still pretty bland, and it's easily the worst collection of lyrics the band has ever done on a single album, but musically it's really good.  Nothing that is totally awesome to where I can call it one of their best, but there is much greatness (first half of A Nightmare to Remember, guitar solo in The Best of Times, last 10 minutes or so of The Count..., etc.).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Elite on July 06, 2020, 04:00:16 PM
BC&SL is my least favourite DT album, although I've felt worse about it some years ago.

The covers disc is way better.

:biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 06, 2020, 06:12:37 PM
Quote from: Elite on July 06, 2020, 04:00:16 PM
BC&SL is my least favourite DT album, although I've felt worse about it some years ago.

The covers disc is way better.

:biggrin:

I think the proper album is much better than the covers disc, but it's still at the bottom of the ranking for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 06, 2020, 06:43:47 PM
I don’t want them to do anymore covers, live or in studio. The “Xanadu” one was just on a Rush album, so that’s an acceptable exception. But I will say that the covers disc for BC&SL is pretty good. For the mostly obscure song choices, if for nothing else.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 06, 2020, 06:48:12 PM
What I like about the covers was that with the Queen and Zebra tracks, and even Rainbow, it allowed James to really shine. For a few albums, DT really hadn't asked a lot of James' range, and the covers disc really showed it off.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on July 06, 2020, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2020, 06:48:12 PM
What I like about the covers was that with the Queen and Zebra tracks, and even Rainbow, it allowed James to really shine. For a few albums, DT really hadn't asked a lot of James' range, and the covers disc really showed it off.

Yes. And it was his more natural style. Not the forces harsh vocals or Muse style.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 11, 2020, 01:43:06 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.

I completely reorganized the tracklisting of SC. I kept the Constant Motion/Dark Eternal Night/Repentance stretch intact but made that the opening three songs. Then I put Ministry of Lost Souls and Forsaken back to back since they both have the wind sounds so it was easy to transition them. Then Prophets of War. Then finally I put In the Presence of Enemies in full as the closer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on July 11, 2020, 01:43:06 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.

I completely reorganized the tracklisting of SC. I kept the Constant Motion/Dark Eternal Night/Repentance stretch intact but made that the opening three songs. Then I put Ministry of Lost Souls and Forsaken back to back since they both have the wind sounds so it was easy to transition them. Then Prophets of War. Then finally I put In the Presence of Enemies in full as the closer.

That's very interesting and it sounds like it would definitely work, but I just can't imagine SC opening with something else than THAT powerful ITPOE intro :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 11, 2020, 05:01:36 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on July 11, 2020, 01:43:06 PM
I completely reorganized the tracklisting of SC. I kept the Constant Motion/Dark Eternal Night/Repentance stretch intact but made that the opening three songs. Then I put Ministry of Lost Souls and Forsaken back to back since they both have the wind sounds so it was easy to transition them. Then Prophets of War. Then finally I put In the Presence of Enemies in full as the closer.
That's very interesting and it sounds like it would definitely work, but I just can't imagine SC opening with something else than THAT powerful ITPOE intro :metal

No doubt! SC opening with CM/TDEN/R would be awful.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on July 12, 2020, 05:23:09 AM
I can understand the combining of SDOIT for convenience sake, but I've never felt the need to combine ITPOE. I absolutely love how the parts are different enough to be enjoyed separately, but they're related enough to make the album's ending more rewarding as a kind of reprise. I don't think any other song on Systematic Chaos would have anywhere near the same effect as ITPOE1 as an opener or ITPOE2 as a closer, so I think splitting it up was the perfect decision.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on July 12, 2020, 06:17:17 AM
Yep, they nailed it with splitting the epic in two that time around. I coulnd't imagine a better flow if an alternative track list featured the epic as a whole. As much as I adore TMOLS, it wouldn't work as well as the closer. Also, none of the remaining songs would make a better opener.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SwedishGoose on July 12, 2020, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Elite on July 06, 2020, 04:00:16 PM
BC&SL is my least favourite DT album, although I've felt worse about it some years ago.

The covers disc is way better.

:biggrin:

Totally agree with this
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on July 12, 2020, 04:40:59 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on July 01, 2020, 05:47:25 PM
Since people were talking about BC&SL, I would say that’s probably at the bottom for me. It’s the most uninspired sounding record of their career. Of course, in my personal opinion..blah blah blah. It’s had a few great parts (specifically the ones Indiscipline mentioned).  And ironically my favorite track on there is probably Wither. I say ironic because the subject matter is about writer’s block, which the whole album sounds like it suffers from. It all sounds forced and by the numbers. And the lyrics...don’t get me  started.

Totally this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on July 12, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
I don't know, I like the complete live version of ITPOE on Chaos In Motion (although I rarely listen to the album, but that not because of ITPOE.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 12, 2020, 04:51:52 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 12, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
I don't know, I like the complete live version of ITPOE on Chaos In Motion (although I rarely listen to the album, but that not because of ITPOE.)

I agree. That bridge between the two parts where it's just MP :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.

I'm in the same group as you.  I just don't think the ITPoE can be properly enjoyed unless it's combined as one track.  I did the same thing you did, and it turned out pretty good.  I was even able to create a real smooth and pop-free transition between the two parts.

Quote from: TAC on July 12, 2020, 04:51:52 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 12, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
I don't know, I like the complete live version of ITPOE on Chaos In Motion (although I rarely listen to the album, but that not because of ITPOE.)

I agree. That bridge between the two parts where it's just MP :metal

I haven't yet listened to that version, I guess I'm missing out :).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 12, 2020, 08:36:00 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.

I'm in the same group as you.  I just don't think the ITPoE can be properly enjoyed unless it's combined as one track.  I did the same thing you did, and it turned out pretty good.  I was even able to create a real smooth and pop-free transition between the two parts.

I like the way the split works in the album too, but I ultimately decided to combine them, as it it one big song after all (and the 2nd longest from DT after SDOIT).

The bolded part is where I struggled and eventually gave up :lol but, again, I'm not too skilled with audio editing anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 12, 2020, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 08:27:42 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 12, 2020, 04:51:52 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 12, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
I don't know, I like the complete live version of ITPOE on Chaos In Motion (although I rarely listen to the album, but that not because of ITPOE.)

I agree. That bridge between the two parts where it's just MP :metal

I haven't yet listened to that version, I guess I'm missing out :).

Lion, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8J9_fXst0k

The MP part I'm talking about is well into the "Pt. 2" section and occurs about the 15:05 mark. It was amazing live.


That said, as well as the song works as 1 song, I thought how they split it up was really cool.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 09:49:26 PM
Quote from: TAC on July 12, 2020, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 08:27:42 PM

Quote from: TAC on July 12, 2020, 04:51:52 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 12, 2020, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: erwinrafael on July 12, 2020, 09:44:09 AM
I've tried it many times but ITPOE as one song just does not work. It would sound like an overstretched BC&SL song with redundant parts.
I don't know, I like the complete live version of ITPOE on Chaos In Motion (although I rarely listen to the album, but that not because of ITPOE.)

I agree. That bridge between the two parts where it's just MP :metal

I haven't yet listened to that version, I guess I'm missing out :).

Lion, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8J9_fXst0k

The MP part I'm talking about is well into the "Pt. 2" section and occurs about the 15:05 mark. It was amazing live.


That said, as well as the song works as 1 song, I thought how they split it up was really cool.

As far as the album goes, the split works well, and is was fine for me when I first heard the album.  But if I want to enjoy just the song, I just can't listen to it split up, it bugs me to death.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 09:58:10 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 12, 2020, 08:36:00 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on July 12, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on July 11, 2020, 12:07:51 PM
Not an opinion, but surely controversial: I just used an audio editing program and my super basic skills to turn ITPOE pt. 1 and 2 into one track, and the 8 SDOIT disc 2 tracks into another. These were written as full songs that were split into parts for their respective albums, but I wanted to have each as full lenght tracks, so I did that. I'm obviously keeping SDOIT as the last song on its album, and I'm placing the full ITPOE at the start of SC, and I think it works really well as the opener and with TMOLS as the last song.

I'm in the same group as you.  I just don't think the ITPoE can be properly enjoyed unless it's combined as one track.  I did the same thing you did, and it turned out pretty good.  I was even able to create a real smooth and pop-free transition between the two parts.

I like the way the split works in the album too, but I ultimately decided to combine them, as it it one big song after all (and the 2nd longest from DT after SDOIT).

The bolded part is where I struggled and eventually gave up :lol but, again, I'm not too skilled with audio editing anyway.

To fix the popping issue and to get a smooth transition you need to do 3 things:

1. Instead of pasting the tracks back to back, you need to stagger them on different audio channels.

2. do a fade out of the first track once the high pitched guitar tone and the wind sound begins. (do a strait fade out and not a curved one)  Then do a fade in with the second tack.

3. Overlap the tracks right at the fade in/fade out parts.  This might take a little bit of trial and error to get the sound you want from the wind section, but it isn't real hard and it is essential.

When you're done, you should have a pop-free and smooth fade from one section to the other.  And it sounds awesome!  And if you need some more detailed instructions, I certainly don't mind helping you out.  Just PM me :).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 14, 2020, 07:47:00 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on June 30, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 30, 2020, 07:42:36 AM
The covers disc of BC&SL is better than the actual album itself.

The covers are good, but I respectfully disagree.  There are some stinkers on BC&SL for sure, but I think the remainder of the songs are still better than the covers.
That's why it's controversial  ;D

But seriously, there are only 6 songs on BC$SL, and I only like 2 of them.

lol!  Well then in your case the covers would be better.  What two songs do you like?  For me, there's only two songs that I don't.  And that's TSF and TBoT.
I like Wither and The Shattered Fortress.  The rest can go hang.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 18, 2020, 06:28:09 PM


i. I like the first three songs on Awake. The rest of it bores me

ii. I prefer Falling Into Infinity

iii. Octavarium is still my favourite DT album. Maybe D/T second.

iv. A Change Of Seasons is not great. Octavarium is a much better composition all round.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on July 20, 2020, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 18, 2020, 06:28:09 PM

iv. A Change Of Seasons is not great. Octavarium is a much better composition all round.

I would put Change of Seasons and Octavarium on equal footing. I think Octavarium is a better composition but ACoS is a better showcase of the band at their “look what I can do!” peak
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 20, 2020, 06:37:47 PM
I've tried to listen to it a few times and each time it sounds more like a medley than a nice flowing piece of music like Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 20, 2020, 07:08:25 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 20, 2020, 06:37:47 PM
I've tried to listen to it a few times and each time it sounds more like a medley than a nice flowing piece of music like Octavarium.

Musically, Octavarium is better (it’s my favorite song). Lyrically, A Change of Seasons is better. They are without question the two most beloved Dream Theater epics, and both are a perfect representation of what Dream Theater is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on July 20, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
Yes both are great!. I like Octavarium more, but as of late have really been listening to COS more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on July 21, 2020, 04:25:10 AM
Ranking the epics: ACOS> Illumination Theory > Octavarium > Six Degrees >>>>>>>>>>>>>ITPOE
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on July 21, 2020, 07:11:41 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 21, 2020, 04:25:10 AM
Ranking the epics: ACOS> Illumination Theory > Octavarium > Six Degrees >>>>>>>>>>>>>ITPOE

ACOS > ITPOE > Octavarium > TCOT > Illumination Theory > Six Degrees (as a suite; I'd rank most of the individual movements higher)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 21, 2020, 04:25:10 AM
Ranking the epics: ACOS> Illumination Theory > Octavarium > Six Degrees >>>>>>>>>>>>>ITPOE

You've definitely got ITPOE in the right place, but I would flip-flop SDOIT and IT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 09:51:29 AM
ITPoE>TCoT>SDoIT>ACoS>IT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8VM

(My dukes are up and ready to fight.  Come at me ha ha ha!  :biggrin:)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 21, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
ACOS>SDOIT>8VM>ITPOE>TCOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IT :loser:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on July 21, 2020, 10:59:48 AM
ITPOE > 8VM > TCOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACOS = IT = SDOIT :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Northern Lion on July 21, 2020, 11:19:49 AM
Quote from: Evermind on July 21, 2020, 10:59:48 AM
ITPOE > 8VM > TCOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ACOS = IT = SDOIT :biggrin:
:tup :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 01:43:21 PM
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago where we ranked DT's "epics" or voted for our favorites?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 21, 2020, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 01:43:21 PM
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago where we ranked DT's "epics" or voted for our favorites?

If there was, I'm sure you'd be able to find it.  :tup



Quote from: Evermind on July 21, 2020, 10:59:48 AM
ACOS = IT = SDOIT

Hey, is that supposed to be a shit sandwich (hold the sh), or are you just fuckin' with us?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: krands85 on July 21, 2020, 05:44:06 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 01:43:21 PM
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago where we ranked DT's "epics" or voted for our favorites?
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
Quote from: krands85 on July 21, 2020, 05:44:06 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 21, 2020, 01:43:21 PM
Wasn't there a thread not too long ago where we ranked DT's "epics" or voted for our favorites?
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591

Thank you kindly.

ACOS.........................66
8VM...........................57


SDOIT........................30



ITPOE..........................7
TCOT...........................5
IT................................4
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 22, 2020, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 21, 2020, 04:25:10 AM
Ranking the epics: ACOS> Illumination Theory > Octavarium > Six Degrees >>>>>>>>>>>>>ITPOE

I genuinely don't get the love for A Change Of Seasons... and I've listened to it like 3 times.

1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees
3. Illumination Theory ( Although I prefer The Count of Tuscany if we're counting it )
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. A Change Of Seasons.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on July 22, 2020, 09:36:22 PM
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on July 23, 2020, 11:10:25 AM
Ya'll are nuts.

The answer is obviously...

1) A Change of Seasons
2) 8VM
3) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4) Illumination Theory
5) In the Presence of Enemies
6) The Count of Tuscany
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on July 23, 2020, 12:10:35 PM
Quote from: Adami on July 23, 2020, 11:10:25 AM
Ya'll are nuts.

The answer is obviously...

1) A Change of Seasons
2) 8VM
3) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4) Illumination Theory
5) In the Presence of Enemies
6) The Count of Tuscany
I was honestly with you until point five :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on July 23, 2020, 02:04:48 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on July 23, 2020, 12:10:35 PM
Quote from: Adami on July 23, 2020, 11:10:25 AM
Ya'll are nuts.

The answer is obviously...

1) A Change of Seasons
2) 8VM
3) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4) Illumination Theory
5) In the Presence of Enemies
6) The Count of Tuscany
I was honestly with you until point five :lol

I just really don't like The Count of Tuscany minus a minute or two here and there. I'm not super fond of either of the last two songs, but Enemies just has more moments I enjoy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 24, 2020, 11:50:09 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 22, 2020, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on July 21, 2020, 04:25:10 AM
Ranking the epics: ACOS> Illumination Theory > Octavarium > Six Degrees >>>>>>>>>>>>>ITPOE

I genuinely don't get the love for A Change Of Seasons... and I've listened to it like 3 times.

1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees
3. Illumination Theory ( Although I prefer The Count of Tuscany if we're counting it )
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. A Change Of Seasons.

I feel the same way about IT.  As far as I'm concerned, IT may as well not even exist.  :angry:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 27, 2020, 11:40:43 AM
I don't even count TCOT as one of the epics.  For me, it's just a long song, like ITNOG or TMOLS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: goo-goo on July 28, 2020, 08:54:14 AM
This would be a great time for DT to release some Official Bootlegs. I miss them so much and the fact that live concerts are a year away or two makes more sense to release some (as well as the London show that was filmed earlier this year).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on July 28, 2020, 09:48:40 AM
Quote from: goo-goo on July 28, 2020, 08:54:14 AM
This would be a great time for DT to release some Official Bootlegs. I miss them so much and the fact that live concerts are a year away or two makes more sense to release some (as well as the London show that was filmed earlier this year).

yes please!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 28, 2020, 02:31:29 PM
Quote from: goo-goo on July 28, 2020, 08:54:14 AM
This would be a great time for DT to release some Official Bootlegs. I miss them so much and the fact that live concerts are a year away or two makes more sense to release some (as well as the London show that was filmed earlier this year).

I'd love it if they remotely recorded and released a short EP with 3 or 4 songs (depending on their length) from unused ideas or whatever they already have lying around this year. Write some lyrics about the current status of the world and you have a wonderful EP while we wait for the next album/tour cycle.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on July 29, 2020, 12:01:15 AM
Nothing controversial about the last 5 posts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 29, 2020, 05:41:02 AM
It really irks me the different ways people abbreviate Octavarium. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: faizoff on July 29, 2020, 05:41:10 AM
I get the feeling only MP was very keen on releasing those official bootleg shows. I think the others esp JP only want to release live material that is shot and edited professionally. That's the impression I alwyas had.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 29, 2020, 07:39:27 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 29, 2020, 05:41:02 AM
It really irks me the different ways people abbreviate Octavarium. :lol

How would you abbreviate it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
I use 8VM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 29, 2020, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
I use 8VM.

Or OVM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on July 29, 2020, 10:38:10 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
I use 8VM.

I use 8V.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 29, 2020, 11:34:53 AM
I've seen 8V, 8VA and 8VM.

8VA is how octave is represented in musical notation (and 8V is also sometimes used), so it's not really a good candidate.  8VM is a good choice, but it's a bit of a "whatever" thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 29, 2020, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
I use 8VM.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 29, 2020, 02:39:47 PM
I'm not a sissy and type it fully out.


It may be spelled incorrectly but you get the gist. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on July 29, 2020, 02:39:47 PM
I'm not a sissy and type it fully out.


It may be spelled incorrectly but you get the gist. :lol
"I really like 0ctovarietyum."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on July 29, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on July 29, 2020, 02:39:47 PM
I'm not a sissy and type it fully out.


It may be spelled incorrectly but you get the gist. :lol
"I really like 0ctovarietyum."

Exactly! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 29, 2020, 04:56:41 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on July 29, 2020, 02:40:42 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on July 29, 2020, 02:39:47 PM
I'm not a sissy and type it fully out.


It may be spelled incorrectly but you get the gist. :lol
"I really like 0ctovarietyum."

New OctavarYUMs cereal from Kellogg's is packed with 8 vitamins and 5 minerals and TONS of hidden nuggets!!!

Too bad I have no photoshipping skills at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 29, 2020, 07:09:01 PM
Quote from: TAC on July 29, 2020, 07:39:27 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on July 29, 2020, 05:41:02 AM
It really irks me the different ways people abbreviate Octavarium. :lol

How would you abbreviate it?

OCT..

But I prefer to type Octavarium as it takes like one point five seconds.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 29, 2020, 07:10:39 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 29, 2020, 11:34:53 AM
I've seen 8V, 8VA and 8VM.

8VA is how octave is represented in musical notation (and 8V is also sometimes used), so it's not really a good candidate.  8VM is a good choice, but it's a bit of a "whatever" thing.

8VRM is a weird one as you could literally take one more second to type out the whole word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on July 29, 2020, 07:23:33 PM
What about Awake?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 30, 2020, 03:32:34 PM
A :lol


Nah seriously I type Awake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 06:12:05 PM
Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as "Wuh-dah-doo". Is that controversial? Is that even an opinion?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on July 30, 2020, 06:17:08 PM
Six Doit.

S-Fam sounds like some vapid Instagram Famous Celeb.


...Mind you so does TOTty  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 54_diplomats on July 30, 2020, 08:04:29 PM
Quote from: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 06:12:05 PM
Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as "Wuh-dah-doo". Is that controversial? Is that even an opinion?
I kinda do that too. Also pronounce SFAM "S-Fam"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on July 30, 2020, 08:57:57 PM
"wah dah doo"
"eye n doubleyoo"
"awake"
"feee"
"suhfam"
"suhdoit"
"tot"
"oct"
"sssk"
"buhcassil"
"additoy"
"dee tee twelve"
"taah"
"dot"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 11:44:17 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on July 30, 2020, 08:57:57 PM
"wah dah doo"
"eye n doubleyoo"
"awake"
"feee"
"suhfam"
"suhdoit"
"tot"
"oct"
"sssk"
"buhcassil"
"additoy"
"dee tee twelve"
"taah"
"dot"
:lol
I pronounce them the same way, except "Ess-fam", "Six-do-it", "Eight-vee-em" and "Add-toe-ee"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evermind on July 31, 2020, 12:23:16 AM
I pronounce them in Russian in my head so this is gonna be fun :lol

Vdah-doo
Ee ee veh (as in "van")
Awake
Feh ee ee (as in "fan")
As feh ah am
As deh oh ee teh (as in "dad" and "ten")
Tot
8 veh am
As kah
Back ah as al
Ah deh teh oh yeah
Deh teh 12
Teh ah
Dot
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on July 31, 2020, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 06:12:05 PM
Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as "Wuh-dah-doo". Is that controversial? Is that even an opinion?

No and no.

Fact:  "Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as 'Wuh-dah-doo'." (as do I, BTW)
Opinion:  "WDADU is DT's best album."


I don't do any of these out loud, but in my head:

wuh-DAH-doo
A-kos
ESS-fam
six-doit or ess-doit
tot
add-toh
dot

For the albums not mentioned, I will occasionally pronounce the letters straight (e.g., eight-vee-em or dee-tee-twelve) or just use the actual name.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on July 31, 2020, 09:46:43 AM
I mentally associate in my head the acronym to the album and that's all. I mean, when I see the word "red" I don't have to translate it in my head to the name of that colour in my language, I know what the word means. Same with "FII" for example.

The only exception is SFAM, in my head I read it / mentally pronounce it the way it's written. It does not rhyme with "ham" however, I mentally-pronounce it the italian way where the A sounds like in "drama".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on August 02, 2020, 08:51:14 PM
add-toe :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 01, 2020, 04:17:27 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Before the title was revealed, I was hoping they would call it "Crossroads" which basically means a turning or pivotal point in their career.  I've never liked the title they came up with.   Seemed a little too corny and cliché.  But, it is one of their best in the MM era.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 01, 2020, 04:58:38 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 01, 2020, 04:17:27 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Before the title was revealed, I was hoping they would call it "Crossroads" which basically means a turning or pivotal point in their career.  I've never liked the title they came up with.   Seemed a little too corny and cliché.  But, it is one of their best in the MM era.

I think it's a good title. I got into Dream Theater in 2016, though, so maybe if I'd been a fan since when Portnoy was in the band, I might've thought differently about "A Dramatic Turn of Events" being the name for the first album made after he left.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 01, 2020, 06:12:53 PM
Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

I didn't know that was the original album title. I never liked the title they went with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 12:59:19 AM
Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

Indeed. There's nothing wrong or corny about "The Shaman's Trance" given the song, and also the little tradition of naming the album after a line in a song would have been honored once again.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on October 02, 2020, 03:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures
The album title was completely unrelated to Portnoy's departure
'Take the evening to de- ide' - There is no vocal editing error here
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 05:43:19 AM
Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 03:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures
The album title was completely unrelated to Portnoy's departure
'Take the evening to de- ide' - There is no vocal editing error here

The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 02, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 03:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures

Sorry, but that's just demonstrably false as to some songs.  I broke down the similarities between LTL and BAI in great detail a week or so ago.  If I can find the post, I'll add a link.


Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 05:43:19 AM
The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.

Song structure and note-for-note are not the same thing.  None of the songs are even close to being note-for-note copies and, even with the structural near-identity between LTL and BAI, the two songs are ultimately quite different.  And, while I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA and between Met1 and Outcry, I find those easy to overlook.  BAI hit me almost instantly after my first listen.

EDITED for a rather important omission.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2020, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

That would've been cool as it fits the album art and then BiTS would've been the title track, but why would they change the title to ADTOE?  I mean, other than what would seem to be the obvious reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on October 02, 2020, 10:26:52 AM
Since you’re all talking about ADTOE, maybe this is controversial. I recently listened to it for the first time in a while and thought, “this might be my favorite DT album”.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 02, 2020, 10:29:15 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on October 02, 2020, 10:26:52 AM
Since you’re all talking about ADTOE, maybe this is controversial. I recently listened to it for the first time in a while and thought, “this might be my favorite DT album”.
it certainly is mine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 02, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 03:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures

Sorry, but that's just demonstrably false as to some songs.  I broke down the similarities between LTL and BAI in great detail a week or so ago.  If I can find the post, I'll add a link.


Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 05:43:19 AM
The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.

Song structure and note-for-note.  None of the songs are even note-for-note copies and, even with the structural near-identity between LTL and BAI, the two songs are ultimately quite different.  And, while I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA and between Met1 and Outcry, I find those easy to overlook.  BAI hit me almost instantly after my first listen.

I don't think the individual songs sound like rip offs of their counterparts on IaW, but there's too many parallels between the order of the songs and the songs they represent as being "like" IaW songs.

Here is what I mean by the flow of the albums being similar.

OTBOA = Pull Me Under, this has been discussed already. It's not the same song, it's not the same riffs, melodies, etc, but it sounds like PMU was the inspiration for this song. This is the one song where there are some musical similarities to be found, structurally.

BMU, BMD = Another Day, obviously these two songs have nothing to do with each other, except they are "trendy" songs on their albums.
Another Day screams early 90s r&B/smooth jazz that was popular at the time. BMU, BMD is very heavy and dark.

LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.

This Is the Life = Surrounded, don't sound the same, but are breather tunes, even if Surrounded rocks a little harder, solo seems to be inspired by Under A Glass Moon solo.

at this point the next two songs are switched.

BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Outcry = Metropolis Pt 1, song/long instrumental break/song. To be fair, this song structure exists in a few other songs throughout DT's catalog prior to ADTOE, this may be the last time the band has written a song with that structure, though.

FFH/BAI = Learning to Live, yes they are completely different musically, but this is the more obvious example, especially with each big track reprising the main themes from their respective album's lead-in track.

and on ADTOE, they added one more song to close, a ballad, and it works against the overall theme of ADTOE.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 02, 2020, 10:31:21 AM
For some reason, Under A Glass Moon hasn't really sat well with me. I'll still listen to it if it comes on, and I did jam out and sing along with it on the I&W&B tour. But it's not one I will look for and play. 

So, I am listening to the Images and Words Demoes. Under A Glass Moon instrumental demo is playing and...

I like this better than what is on the actual album, and it works better as an instrumental.



And to tie this into the ADTOE discussion. Lost Not Forgotten has the same effect on me, which is pretty funny in itself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 02, 2020, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.

We could say there's similarities between Another Day / This is the Life too, but that's it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on October 02, 2020, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 02, 2020, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.

We could say there's similarities between Another Day / This is the Life too, but that's it.

I created a playlist of these songs so I could listen side by side and while they are similar in structure, they sound nothing like each other. But I have to admit, the MM era sounds more mature.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM
1. Awake is not great. After the 3 great opening songs it's pretty boring.

2. Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums.

3. I don't get the love for KevMo - however - i'd be happy to revisit since my previous favourite Derek turned out to be a Roid Rage POS

4. Octavarium is one of - if not their best albums.

5. In The Presence Of Enemies is their worst Epic.

6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end

and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 02, 2020, 12:30:55 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM
3. I don't get the love for KevMo - however - i'd be happy to revisit since my previous favourite Derek turned out to be a Roid Rage POS
Wat
 
 
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM
6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.
Disagree. And certainly WIMH isn't structured like a song "with a beginning and an end". Taking it a step further, I think it should've been indexed to 9 individual since Losing Time and Grand Finale, altho they flow together are separate (or else they wouldn't have separate names). And taking that into consideration, they don't fit into your idea od being complete songs on their own either. Furthermore, I doubt half the people who claim this is 8 separate songs instead of 1 would be making that statement if it was indexed as 1 track on the original album, like it is on Score.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 12:37:47 PM
The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"? you either make the most repetitive song of all time, or you have to add different stuff into it, which might not have the same feel of other parts of the song.

Could there even be a "rule" that coul be applied to all longass pieces to properly define what is a song and what is a suite, a multi-track composition, separated songs all glued into one...? probably not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 02, 2020, 12:47:12 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM
3. I don't get the love for KevMo
There are several different "loves" for KevMo, based on the roles he performed, so I don't know which one you don't get? He wore all the hats that JP and MP and JMX did during their time together, he did it well, touched people, we loved it. That's about all there is to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 02, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 12:37:47 PM
Could there even be a "rule" that coul be applied to all longass pieces to properly define what is a song and what is a suite, a multi-track composition, separated songs all glued into one...? probably not.

I'd add that you could create a problem the other direction. It seems like there are two criteria being raised here: the length of the song, and the elements connecting each part to the others. Would Kotowboy treat SDOIT as a single song if it had more repeated themes and binding elements? Then it seems to be an issue of structure more so than length. But then, one could write a short song that has distinct sections that don't have a lot in common. Could that be a single, say, four minute song, or does it have to be broken into a two minute song and two one minute songs? Then it would seem this is about length and structure, and then there's a lot that you'd have to do to define the standards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2020, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 02, 2020, 12:30:55 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM
6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.
Disagree. And certainly WIMH isn't structured like a song "with a beginning and an end". Taking it a step further, I think it should've been indexed to 9 individual since Losing Time and Grand Finale, altho they flow together are separate (or else they wouldn't have separate names). And taking that into consideration, they don't fit into your idea od being complete songs on their own either. Furthermore, I doubt half the people who claim this is 8 separate songs instead of 1 would be making that statement if it was indexed as 1 track on the original album, like it is on Score.

This.  Yes, indexing would've worked better for a more seamless result like they did with ACOS.  That would make it seem more like one song as the band intended.  I really don't distinguish between the two.  Just because SDOIT is split into 8 tracks, doesn't make me think they are 8 separate songs when they all flow together as part of one song.  Besides, the band says it's one song.  That's all we really needed to know.  Anything outside of that is just wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 12:37:47 PM
The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

Quote
The performance of the organ version at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany began in 2001 and is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years, ending in 2640.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 10:32:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 12:37:47 PM
The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

Quote
The performance of the organ version at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany began in 2001 and is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years, ending in 2640.

I thought that would be the dumbest thing I'd read today, but then I found this -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 -- another "composition" by the same person.

"4′33″ (pronounced "four minutes, thirty-three seconds" or just "four thirty-three") is a three-movement composition by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992). It was composed in 1952, for any instrument or combination of instruments, and the score instructs performers not to play their instruments during the entire duration of the piece throughout the three movements."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 05, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 10:32:19 AM
I thought that would be the dumbest thing I'd read today, but then I found this -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 -- another "composition" by the same person.

"4′33″ (pronounced "four minutes, thirty-three seconds" or just "four thirty-three") is a three-movement composition by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992). It was composed in 1952, for any instrument or combination of instruments, and the score instructs performers not to play their instruments during the entire duration of the piece throughout the three movements."

Back when I was studying music at the University for a while (ended up switching to Marketing) we had to watch a video performance of 4'33'' for a class. It was as dumb as it sounds :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 05, 2020, 10:50:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
I don't think he was stupid. I conducted the piece once. One eye on the players (who do not play in the piece) and one eye on a stopwatch :D (opening and closing the piano lid three times too. Effort people. Effort.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
^Nice^
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 05, 2020, 12:12:49 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 12:11:12 PM

In The Presence Of Enemies is their worst Epic.


I used to think the same. But now, it's one of their best song and epic, IMO. Especially the second part is amazing. Too bad DT seems less interested about playing pt2.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 12:47:37 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.

Opinions and all, but "sit there and do nothing for four and a half minutes" isn't even a "composition," and something that consists only of a bunch of droning chords that "is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years" and which ostensibly starts with a 17-month rest is pretty much the height of "dumb," IMO.  I can't comment on anything else he did because, after those two things, I have no interest in seeking any of it out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 01:08:15 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.

I understand what he is trying to do.

He's trying to get the musician to listen to the environment, as the environment is the musician now. Listening in to how these sounds create a rhythm, and sometimes a melody. That is the composition of the piece.

If you think it's just about Silence, to me, you aren't really listening to the song.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 04:11:14 PM
This whole discussion reminds me of this "painting":

(https://www.oddee.com/wp-content/uploads/_media/imgs/articles2/a98781_worst-art_6-blue-canvas.jpg')

which sold for $43 million.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 05, 2020, 05:25:29 PM
Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DqmTtCPiQ
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 05:59:05 PM
tl:dw
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 05, 2020, 08:28:19 PM
The distinction of "real art" from "not real/degenerate/art in airquotes" is a tool used by fascists to exert their cultural superiority & enforce the (culturally rooted) status quo of art by targeting works that question it (especially when that distaste turns into vandalism or harassment of the creators). Not to say that you're doing either, but to imply that that painting or 4'33" simply has less inherent value is what I'm talking about. Norms & conventions are cool & all, but if something's value is tied to how closely it follows them, then progressive music (& thus, this entire forum) wouldn't be here. :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 06, 2020, 01:03:44 AM
...or, to put it more simply, somebody is allowed to consider a piece made of silence a silly and pretentious thing without harboring at the same time a desire to invade Poland  :D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 01:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely, especially when that's mostly motivated by the art's deviation from the status quo (or rather, the dominant culture).

Just watch the video. It has examples & explains it better than I ever could.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 09:25:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 01:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 06, 2020, 09:33:12 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 05, 2020, 08:28:19 PM
The distinction of "real art" from "not real/degenerate/art in airquotes" is a tool used by fascists to exert their cultural superiority & enforce the (culturally rooted) status quo of art by targeting works that question it (especially when that distaste turns into vandalism or harassment of the creators).

Perhaps.  But it is also a tool of those with decent tastes to simply call out that which is silly and has little to no artistic merit.  Don't confuse two.


*The views expressed in this post may or may not correlate to a desire to invade Poland.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 06, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 09:25:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 01:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".

You have to be with instrument in hand, to be playing the piece... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoFred on October 06, 2020, 11:02:24 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 06, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 09:25:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 01:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".

You have to be with instrument in hand, to be playing the piece... :biggrin:

What’s an instrument?

The absurdity in al this is really in the 600+ year performance. So they have walled in the organ so the sound doesn’t bother anyone? The artist is fine the performance is wasteful
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 12:34:20 PM
On a related note, I've written a sequel to 4'33" this morning:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/50/0e/25500e362f38024a7a6af73c8d8f9103.png)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 06, 2020, 12:40:11 PM
Sequels are never as good as the originals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 06, 2020, 03:20:50 PM
Quote
Cage had gone to a place where he expected total silence, and yet heard sound. "Until I die there will be sounds. And they will continue following my death. One need not fear about the future of music."[15] The realization as he saw it of the impossibility of silence led to the composition of 4′33″.

Now that makes even more sense to me why he made it.

Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 12:34:20 PM
On a related note, I've written a sequel to 4'33" this morning:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/50/0e/25500e362f38024a7a6af73c8d8f9103.png)

I think that's this piece...Alphonse Allais's 1897 Funeral March for the Obsequies of a Deaf Man, consisting of twenty-four blank measures


Also...

Quote
In defining noise music and its value, Paul Hegarty in Noise/Music: A History (2007) contends that Cage's 4′33″ represents the beginning of noise music proper. For Hegarty, noise music, as with 4′33″, is that music made up of incidental sounds that represent perfectly the tension between "desirable" sound (properly played musical notes) and undesirable "noise" that make up all noise music.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 06, 2020, 03:57:18 PM
Here's how I probably rate the DT studio albums as of 22:52 on Tuesday night October 6th 2020.

1. Octavarium
2. Scenes From A Memory
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Distance Over Time
5. The Astonishing
6. Train of Thought
7. Dream Theater

8. A Dramatic Turn of Events
9. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
10. Falling Into infinity
11. Images and Words *
12. Awake
13. Systematic Chaos
14. When Dream And Day Unite




* I don't think I&W 'sucks' - but it's just too dated for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 06, 2020, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 05, 2020, 10:50:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 10:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
I don't think he was stupid. I conducted the piece once. One eye on the players (who do not play in the piece) and one eye on a stopwatch :D (opening and closing the piano lid three times too. Effort people. Effort.)

Yeah, I get the concept and what it's meant to illustrate, but if there were no performing instruments and only the sound of ambience, then technically it isn't something he composed at all.  It's just an observation of an idea being shared with others.  He's unveiling art that was already there and bringing it to the forefront.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on October 07, 2020, 07:27:15 AM
Here is my chilling in Pennsylvania at 9:30 in the morning ranking:

1. Distance Over Time
2. Systematic Chaos
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. Train Of Thought
5. Scenes From A Memory
6. Falling Into Infinity
7. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
8. Octavarium
9. Dream Theater
10. Images And Words
11. A Dramatic Turn of Events
12. Awake
13. When Dream And Day Unite
14. The Astonishing

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on October 07, 2020, 07:49:40 AM
Here’s my “posting for no reason/who gives a shit what I think” ranking...

Scenes From a Memory
Images and Words
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
Awake
Train of Thought
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Dream Theater
Falling Into Infinity
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on October 07, 2020, 10:27:49 AM
My totally objectively correct until it changes again ranking:

1. Scenes From a Memory
2. Images & Words
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Awake
5. Octavarium
6.Train of Thought
7. Falling Into Infinity
8. A Dramatic Turn of Events
9. Distance Over Time
10. Dream Theater
11. Systematic Chaos
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
13. When Dream and Day Unite
14. The Astonishing
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 07, 2020, 11:25:11 AM
Ok...why not...

My rankings go in tier, and the order of albums within each tier is subject to change on any given day.

Top Tier
SFAM
I&W
SDOIT

Just a Notch Below
Awake
8VM
TOT

Really Good, but not quite up with the others...
DT12
ADTOE
DOT

Charlie
WDADU

Bottom of the Barrel
FII
BC&SL
SC
TA
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 07, 2020, 05:26:16 PM
Lol the "Charlie" tier.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 08, 2020, 03:00:51 AM
Falling Into infinity has Lines In The Sand, Trial of Tears, Hell's Kitchen, Hollow Years...And New Millennium is pretty cool.

Those songs alone should save it from Last Place.

Plus the production is stellar.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 08, 2020, 03:31:16 AM
Not for me :P

#1. Images & Words
#2. Scenes From A Memory
#3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
#4. Distance Over Time
#5. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
#6. The Astonishing
#7. Awake
#8. Octavarium (yeet)
#9. Systematic Chaos
10. When Dream & Day Unite
11. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
12. Dream Theater
13. Train Of Thought
14. Falling Into Infinity
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 03:37:16 AM
I'd have to go by tier too...

GOD TIER, UTTER MASTERPIECES
Scenes
Awake
Images and Words

JUST A LITTLE BELOW
Octavarium

GREAT ALBUMS ALL AROUND
Six Degrees
The Astonishing
Dramatic Turn
Train of Thought

YEAH, IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE BAD, BUT....
Distance Over Time
Dream Theater
Falling Into Infinity

STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 08, 2020, 03:53:58 AM
Systematic Chaos was the first 'new' album since I became a fan and that was definitely a " not bad but I expected better " album.

Especially since I came on board with Octavarium - which is still my favourite.

SC basically follows the same pattern as that album but with the epic split into two.

DT12 didn't really have the " It's good but I expected better " factor apart from that snare sound. And everyone banging on about Surrender to reason when I have always found it meh.

Breaking All Illusions too for some reason... It just never grabbed me in the same way as a song like " This Is The Life " or "The Answer Lies Within"...

Along for the ride is MEH as well. But I think DT12's highs are better than ADTOE's Highs but it has worse lows. . IMO

Finally - Illumination theory has never really grabbed me either. I actually prefer the Count Of Tuscany... But i'm glad they've moved away from the mandatory 20 minute song on each album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 07, 2020, 05:26:16 PM
Lol the "Charlie" tier.

 :biggrin:

Obviously, that was tongue-in-cheek, but WDADU would move up a tier with a better vocalist (which isn't saying that Charlie lacked merit, but....).


Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 03:37:16 AM
STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

I'm curious about this tier description as it relates to WDADU.  If you heard WDADU when Charlie was still in the band, then it was a completely unknown band, and you should have had no expectations at all.  On the other hand, if you only heard WDADU after being familiar with JLB era music (as is the case for most of us), what expectations did you have for the band's debut effort with a different singer.

Or, perhaps, as I often do, I'm overthinking this.   :)


Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.

That he apparently has succeeded in getting some people to regard 4'33" as a "composition," much less something that is "brilliant," indicates that succeeded at something (much in the same way that John Hammond succeeded with his flea circus).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 10:02:00 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 03:37:16 AM
STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

I'm curious about this tier description as it relates to WDADU.  If you heard WDADU when Charlie was still in the band, then it was a completely unknown band, and you should have had no expectations at all.  On the other hand, if you only heard WDADU after being familiar with JLB era music (as is the case for most of us), what expectations did you have for the band's debut effort with a different singer.

Or, perhaps, as I often do, I'm overthinking this.   :)


Yeah, you do  :D I generically lumped together the albums I'm not crazy for, maybe the most correct approach is having  a Charlie tier like you did 'cause the debut is for very obvious reasons unlike anything they've ever done since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 09:56:15 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 01:28:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.

That he apparently has succeeded in getting some people to regard 4'33" as a "composition," much less something that is "brilliant," indicates that succeeded at something (much in the same way that John Hammond succeeded with his flea circus).

No one will think that the "composition is brilliant" in itself. This is foolish.
It is not the "composition" that is brilliant, the idea is that it is. Conceptual art. The product is irrelevant, obviously.
Certainly, not everyone will think the same way, but that is part of the world.

Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Oh, how I hate this cover.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 08, 2020, 11:57:26 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Oh, how I hate this cover.  :lol
Me too.  I know a lot of people like it, but I can't stand it.

Give me John Cage, any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.


Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Yes and yes!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 12:25:09 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.


But of course there is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 08, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.
That's just crazy talk.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 10:08:43 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 08, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.
That's just crazy talk.

Oh, it's a piece alright.  A piece of what is entirely subjective just like any other listening experience.  I mean, someone in the audience could've farted for Christ's sake. :lol However, not sure how Cage can be given credit.  It's not his composition.  I'd rather listen to those performing what he did compose.  Anyone can sit somewhere without any performers and take in the sounds of ambient nature.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 12:54:36 PM
But it's not just ambient nature.  It's not outside.  It's in a performance hall, a theater, a venue, together with the rest of the audience, and performer(s).  It's not just any old silence.  It's communal silence.

It's like a pause or a rest in any other piece - just longer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 09, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

There is, quite literally, nothing to it!

It's the Emperor's New Clothes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 10, 2020, 01:17:57 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

Exactly. People don't have to like it. They may think it is a stupid idea for stupid people. But it is just an opinion, not a big deal.

John Cage came up with the idea of ​​a "musical" piece (as it was inserted in a musical environment) without sound, in three movements, for an audience more used to the etiquette of classical music. In other words, he knew that people would be silent when the piece was performed. They would hear silence, but no, they would not hear any silence, because there is no silence for living human beings (unless they are totally deaf). People may would experience this, if they were there (and want to).

He is the author of this idea and no one can say otherwise. Even if they want to.

Silent people in a sports venue were not invited to try to hear anything or experience anything. They are not focused on something that was thought of as an artistic experience. They just remain silent in honor of someone they probably don't even care about.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 10, 2020, 11:36:32 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

I thought he wasn't going to nail it, but he did quite good! I still think playing it live for the whole tour could be a bit too much for his voice, but they could give it a shot. Mangini has been asking to play that one for a while (he's said in a couple interviews).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 11, 2020, 03:17:48 AM
Always nice to hear great singers singing with their bare naked voice, no music beneath, no effects, just their "instrument" and nothing else  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 11, 2020, 10:52:48 AM
DT12 track order is all wrong. I just realized I can tolerate the entire album if the track order is like this.

False Awakening Suite
The Enemy Inside
Enigma Machine
Behind the Veil
The Bigger Picture
The Looking Glass
Along for the Ride
Surrender to Reason
Illumination Theory

Much better flow this way. Still a bottom 3 tier DT album, still has the hot mastering, still has the production, I would cut some songs off for a tighter album, but at least I can stand listening to this one like I can ADTOE and DoT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. I did finally pick it up recently, and I have to say that I think it's a pretty good release. James is spotty at times, but I think the only song that actually sounds bad due to the vocal performance is Voices. There are other songs where he sounds good. The rest of the band is on fire, and there is a lot of good stuff on this release, including some songs that don't really get enough live attention, like Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Caught in a Web and Peruvian Skies.

It's certainly not their strongest live release, but I don't think it's the travesty it's often made out to be. I think it generally stands up next to the other Portnoy-era live albums, a few strange editing moments or weak vocal parts notwithstanding.

Would love to see a 3CD re-release with the full show (or at least everything but the covers if that's legally problematic), and perhaps some better repair-work on Voices, though I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Looking at setlist.fm, it seems we're missing:
Burning My Soul
Under a Glass Moon
The Way It Used to Be
Anna Lee
Speak to Me
Hey You
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Cover My Eyes
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on October 11, 2020, 09:31:05 PM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. I did finally pick it up recently, and I have to say that I think it's a pretty good release. James is spotty at times, but I think the only song that actually sounds bad due to the vocal performance is Voices. There are other songs where he sounds good. The rest of the band is on fire, and there is a lot of good stuff on this release, including some songs that don't really get enough live attention, like Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Caught in a Web and Peruvian Skies.

It's certainly not their strongest live release, but I don't think it's the travesty it's often made out to be. I think it generally stands up next to the other Portnoy-era live albums, a few strange editing moments or weak vocal parts notwithstanding.

Would love to see a 3CD re-release with the full show (or at least everything but the covers if that's legally problematic), and perhaps some better repair-work on Voices, though I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Looking at setlist.fm, it seems we're missing:
Burning My Soul
Under a Glass Moon
The Way It Used to Be
Anna Lee
Speak to Me
Hey You
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Cover My Eyes
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?

I really enjoy this one! Yes to the couple of cracks by James, but he still sounds really good and there are some great versions of said songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 11, 2020, 09:56:02 PM
I missed out on this release in real time because of life issues and a general lack of interest in all things music. Owning the 5 Years DVD later on wasn't enough to inspire to buy it, and the couple times I streamed it to check it didn't impress me enough to get it. I will give it another stream this week for a re-eval.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 07:20:46 AM
Once in a Livetime has a special place in my heart..I was a teenager and just discovered DT. I was obsessed with this live, so much that I taped it and took it with me when the whole school went to a 5 days road trip. To me their performance at Bataclan was simply amazing. Although I had a love and hate opinion of DS at that time, the band was on fire as the friend above mentioned. I mean the energy just poured out from everyone, especially MP, JP (awesome guitar tone btw) and DS with his wild leads..Also I loved the little improvisations and cover song snippets, like Enter Sandman, Carry on you Wayward son and other! I'd love to see them release the whole concert of that night one day..although I doubt anyone cares at this point in time..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 12, 2020, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. . . .

I bought OIAL when it was released and remember not liking it, and I doubt I've listened to it more than once or twice since the turn of the century.  The worst thing about it is that it's from the tour for one of DT's worst albums.  The way they broke up ACOS didn't work well on CD, and neither do individual instrument solos.  Plus they truncated LTL, which had not had an official live release at that time.  And for the most part, the missing songs would have made it worse.  The 5YIAL video not good either (although the commentary track on the DVD is worth listening to).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 12, 2020, 10:15:28 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 12, 2020, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. . . .

I bought OIAL when it was released and remember not liking it, and I doubt I've listened to it more than once or twice since the turn of the century.  The worst thing about it is that it's from the tour for one of DT's worst albums.  The way they broke up ACOS didn't work well on CD, and neither do individual instrument solos.  Plus they truncated LTL, which had not had an official live release at that time.  And for the most part, the missing songs would have made it worse.  The 5YIAL video not good either (although the commentary track on the DVD is worth listening to).
I agree with everything here. (and to be honest, even when I still listened to pre-MM era DT, I much preferred LSFNY. (I much preferred any pieces that intersect with OIAL on LSFNY too)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.
Actually, no. There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 12:32:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.
Actually, no. There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.
Yes this is correct, actually I just noticed that the OIALT version is an edit! I guess we do learn a new thing every day!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.
I have never heard it but you have to be correct! I guess my brain just autofilled the information with how they used to truncate TTT sometimes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 12, 2020, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal

I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 13, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 12, 2020, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal
I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.
You mean, just the same way as when listening to the album version itself? Yeah, that's what I want in a live recording - a repeat of exactly what they did already in the studio.  ::)

I'm glad we got both versions that are on OiaL and CiM - OiaL may not be complete, but I like how both of them offer something different to the studio version. If I want to hear the version that gives off the "Awake vibe", I'll listen to the version on Awake.  ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 13, 2020, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 10, 2020, 01:17:57 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

Exactly. People don't have to like it. They may think it is a stupid idea for stupid people. But it is just an opinion, not a big deal.

John Cage came up with the idea of ​​a "musical" piece (as it was inserted in a musical environment) without sound, in three movements, for an audience more used to the etiquette of classical music. In other words, he knew that people would be silent when the piece was performed. They would hear silence, but no, they would not hear any silence, because there is no silence for living human beings (unless they are totally deaf). People may would experience this, if they were there (and want to).

He is the author of this idea and no one can say otherwise. Even if they want to.

Silent people in a sports venue were not invited to try to hear anything or experience anything. They are not focused on something that was thought of as an artistic experience. They just remain silent in honor of someone they probably don't even care about.

I think the majority would most likely disagree.  It's a nice observation but I wouldn't call it art or presume to take credit for its creation had I been in his position.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 13, 2020, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 13, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 12, 2020, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal
I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.
You mean, just the same way as when listening to the album version itself? Yeah, that's what I want in a live recording - a repeat of exactly what they did already in the studio.  ::)

I'm glad we got both versions that are on OiaL and CiM - OiaL may not be complete, but I like how both of them offer something different to the studio version. If I want to hear the version that gives off the "Awake vibe", I'll listen to the version on Awake.  ;)

Awake doesn't have the nice Seaboard sound... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 17, 2020, 12:11:11 PM
With the talk of the I&W in the other thread.

I actually quite enjoy the Chris Cintron vocals of A Change of Seasons. There are certain things he does I find quite neat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 19, 2020, 03:12:02 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

Now Pull Me Under: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4_jqEBEFs

He went for the craziest, highest part of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 19, 2020, 03:52:13 PM
I think it sounds smooth and clean for the most part.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on October 19, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 19, 2020, 03:52:13 PM
I think it sounds smooth and clean for the most part.

That was surprisingly pretty good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on October 20, 2020, 08:44:58 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 17, 2020, 12:11:11 PM
With the talk of the I&W in the other thread.

I actually quite enjoy the Chris Cintron vocals of A Change of Seasons. There are certain things he does I find quite neat.

I do too. For what it's worth, he had a band called Reckless and if you like some pure 80s rock with a hefty dose of cheese, I highly recommend it. If you can get past lyrics that actually spell out R-O-C-K-N-R-O-L-L, you'll have a lot of fun with this album.

He also has a traditional Spanish acoustic band with his brother. They used to play around New York City a bunch
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 20, 2020, 09:34:00 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 17, 2020, 12:11:11 PM
With the talk of the I&W in the other thread.

I actually quite enjoy the Chris Cintron vocals of A Change of Seasons. There are certain things he does I find quite neat.

My first thought on reading this yesterday was, "when the hell did Chris Cintron do a version of ACOS?"  I bought the ACOS demos upwards of 7-8 years ago, and I'm not sure I listened to the Cintron version more than once and had forgotten it existed.  I gave it another list this morning, and it's ok (the parts where he harmonizes with himself are good), but there are some cringe-worthy parts.  I also think the vocals are too high in the mix, although that was likely intentional.  It doesn't help that some of the original vocal melody lines were not great and didn't fit the music well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 23, 2020, 02:19:27 PM
Maybe do a poll to see who agrees? I like JP's solo stuff, but I definitely prefer LTE, especially the written stuff (as opposed to the improvised). To me LTE, is like an instrumental extension of DT. That said, I prefer JP's solo stuff over JR's. For me, the sum is greater than the parts.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 23, 2020, 02:20:31 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:

I would agree...

Terminal Velocity is a fantastic album, that showcases JP's different styles, and he puts them in a blender.

LTE was great for what it was. I tend to listen to the live album more than the studio. Although, I do like Liquid Dreams, and Hourglass (I was lucky to be there when JP and JR played this cover).

I honestly would be listening to it more, If I were able to have found a cd of Suspended Animation before it got rereleased with Terminal Velocity. I did like Glassgow Kiss the most, Damaged Controlled was good, as were the ones I did hear when my friend let me borrow his copy. Every time I would listen to a song from SA I would like it and would try and find the album. I didn't want to get it other ways because I like to rip it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 23, 2020, 02:25:53 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:

Not controversial, but I get it.  JP's solo work is just straight forward and to the point.  There's not a lot of other underlying orchestrations or accompaniments going on to determine how he needs to compliment with his playing.  He just jams with his bass player and drummer doing pretty much do what ever he wants.  It's most likely liberating and refreshing for both the band and the listeners as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on October 23, 2020, 02:44:24 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 23, 2020, 02:25:53 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:

Not controversial, but I get it.  JP's solo work is just straight forward and to the point.  There's not a lot of other underlying orchestrations or accompaniments going on to determine how he needs to compliment with his playing.  He just jams with his bass player and drummer doing pretty much do what ever he wants.  It's most likely liberating and refreshing for both the band and the listeners as well.
and then adding in the accessibility and the melodic aspect that is present (and John always has a great penchant for melodies. One aspect I like a lot about him.), which may be your reason for liking John's solo material bosk. Or not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 23, 2020, 03:12:23 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 23, 2020, 02:19:27 PM
I like JP's solo stuff, but I definitely prefer LTE, especially the written stuff (as opposed to the improvised). To me LTE, is like an instrumental extension of DT.

I'm with Scotty in all of this, specially the bolded. I'm not a huge fan of the LTE improvised stuff, but the written stuff is  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 23, 2020, 03:24:56 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 23, 2020, 02:19:27 PM
Maybe do a poll to see who agrees? 

BoskRanger! ;D
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on October 24, 2020, 06:43:10 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:

I agree with this. I never clicked with LTE because it was just too much soloing, DT cranked to 11.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on October 24, 2020, 09:41:18 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 24, 2020, 06:43:10 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 23, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
This isn't a controversial opinion "on DT," but is DT-related, so:

For my money, I generally prefer to listen to JP solo over LTE.  Not that there aren't some really cool LTE songs.  But I find myself gravitating more to JP solo.

Maybe controversial?  :dunno:

I agree with this. I never clicked with LTE because it was just too much soloing, DT cranked to 11.

This. I learned early on that the 'wank-fest' side of DT was not for me. I get it, they are amazing musicians, but at a certain point, it all just becomes a bit too much for me. To that end, LTE has a distinct 'jam' vibe as well, and I hate Jam bands...so JP solo all the way for me.

That all being said, the LTE albums sound amazing coherent for how quickly they were put together...top notch stuff, just not my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 24, 2020, 09:48:00 AM
The way I describe LTE is a mix between Progressive, Blues, Jazz, Metal. The jazz influence is the Improvisation, and way they composed the songs based off of Jams, and can improvise within the songs. The Blues, is in the riffs. The Metal in the tone. And the progressive in the Arrangements, song structure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MetropolisWatches on October 25, 2020, 02:50:20 PM
Systematic Chaos has aged remarkably well, and blows away Black Clouds and Silver Linings (the worst Portnoy-era album).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 25, 2020, 05:35:59 PM
Quote from: MetropolisWatches on October 25, 2020, 02:50:20 PM
Systematic Chaos has aged remarkably well, and blows away Black Clouds and Silver Linings.

I definitely agree with this.

Quote from: MetropolisWatches on October 25, 2020, 02:50:20 PM
(the worst Portnoy-era album)

I wouldn't call it the worst MP era album, though, at least WDADU and FII would rank lower for me.

Which leads me to my controversial opinion: I've been recently listening to the DT studio catalog chronologicaly and updating my ranking, and SC just ranked higher than Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 25, 2020, 06:08:58 PM
Not with Repentance and In The Presence of Enemies Part 2....
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 25, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 26, 2020, 08:35:12 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

Well, and see that's the cool thing--this is a band with so much awesome material that you can have such wide-ranging opinions on what people's "favorites" are.  It's cool that something that others may not gravitate as strongly toward is one of your favorites.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I agree with all of that.  But it's just not a song that I enjoy listening to. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true. I think it's a stronger album than many DT fans give it credit for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 26, 2020, 09:41:16 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true. I think it's a stronger album than many DT fans give it credit for.

Black Clouds and Silver Linings is my favorite Dream Theater album (although Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence may surpass it one day).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 26, 2020, 09:57:03 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 26, 2020, 08:35:12 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

Well, and see that's the cool thing--this is a band with so much awesome material that you can have such wide-ranging opinions on what people's "favorites" are.  It's cool that something that others may not gravitate as strongly toward is one of your favorites.

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I agree with all of that.  But it's just not a song that I enjoy listening to.

Yeah me too. This thread made me want to listen to it, and that's what I discovered for myself after.

That could also be why they never played it Live, only that one time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
BC&SL was the album that made me think "OK, DT is done for me". Of course, I did not expect the subsequent dramatic turn of events.

But it's a horrible album. There are only 6 songs, of which I hate 4, don't care about 1 and like only one. And I don't even like it that much.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.

The song.
You don't even need the other tracks on the disc.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on October 26, 2020, 10:36:44 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.

The song.
You don't even need the other tracks on the disc.  :lol

This.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 26, 2020, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.

The song.
You don't even need the other tracks on the disc.  :lol

Because they aren't that good :lol (except These Walls, I love that one).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:42:08 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 26, 2020, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.

The song.
You don't even need the other tracks on the disc.  :lol

Because they aren't that good :lol (except These Walls, I love that one).

It's true  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on October 26, 2020, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true. I think it's a stronger album than many DT fans give it credit for.

Coincidentally, I think Nightmare is about 30-45 minutes too long and could benefit from some trimming.  But the 30 second or so that I could do without are not the same 30 second or so that you are thinking.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 11:18:25 AM
Octavarium is great, and better than SC and BC&SL. Of course the title track is their best but the rest of the album is classic DT with lots of varied material, and the way the songs weave in and out of each other gives the album a unique charm other DT albums lack. I used to not like IWBY but that one warmed up on me over time, but the rest I always thought was strong. Basically it is the last album of that era of the band (IaW through 8vm) Their music changed after that last French horn line in the title song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on October 26, 2020, 11:31:17 AM
Octavarium is better than Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 26, 2020, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 10:31:38 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 26, 2020, 10:10:50 AM
Well, being me I think Octavarium is a better album than both of them.

Octavarium is better than SC and BC&SL combined.

The song.
You don't even need the other tracks on the disc.  :lol

Because they aren't that good :lol (except These Walls, I love that one).

I don't know that I'd go quite so far as to say that the song 8VM > SC + BC&SL, but it's pretty close.

As for the rest of the songs on 8VM, the only ones I don't think are really strong (or better) are IWBY and Never Enough.  The latter is a case of a set of lyrics ruining what might be an otherwise good song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on October 26, 2020, 11:47:45 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on October 26, 2020, 11:31:17 AM
Octavarium is better than Images and Words.

This is mathematically impossible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 26, 2020, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 26, 2020, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.

Hate may have been too strong a word. I for one loved it on first listen and continued loving it, in contrast to SC where I wasn't all that impressed with it at the time of release and was basically the first time I fell off the DT bandwagon, though I grew to enjoy SC and did like some stuff initially. I put BC&SL somewhere in the middle of the pack, though, with SC a notch or two below depending on my mood. Too many great albums by the band preceded them.

Raw Dog is technically not "canon" so yea whatever. From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 12:47:13 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 26, 2020, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.

Putting aside whether "hate" is or isn't the appropriate word, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone basis an opinion about BC&SL solely because the growly vocals in ANTR.  For me, it's pretty simple:

1. ANTR is bloated.  It has some good parts and, maybe, if it were condensed down to 9-10 minutes, I'd like it better.
2. AROP is band as heck.
3. Wither is an excellent song in all respects.
4. TSF is ok, but it's (understandably) redundant of the previous songs in the 12SS, one of which I regard as the single worst song in DT's catalog.
5. TBOT is just dull as heck.  I appreciate and have no problem with what MP was doing with the lyrics, but that doesn't mean I like the song.  I also don't get all the gaga over the guitar solo.
6. TCOT is good but not great.  The intro and end are excellent, but the verses aren't great, and the long continuum break is only slightly more tolerable than the intro to 8VM.

When the best song on a DT album is a 5 1/2 minute "ballad," then the album is in trouble.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 26, 2020, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 26, 2020, 12:47:13 PM
Putting aside whether "hate" is or isn't the appropriate word, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone basis an opinion about BC&SL solely because the growly vocals in ANTR.  For me, it's pretty simple:

1. ANTR is bloated.  It has some good parts and, maybe, if it were condensed down to 9-10 minutes, I'd like it better.
2. AROP is band as heck.
3. Wither is an excellent song in all respects.
4. TSF is ok, but it's (understandably) redundant of the previous songs in the 12SS, one of which I regard as the single worst song in DT's catalog.
5. TBOT is just dull as heck.  I appreciate and have no problem with what MP was doing with the lyrics, but that doesn't mean I like the song.  I also don't get all the gaga over the guitar solo.
6. TCOT is good but not great.  The intro and end are excellent, but the verses aren't great, and the long continuum break is only slightly more tolerable than the intro to 8VM.

When the best song on a DT album is a 5 1/2 minute "ballad," then the album is in trouble.
I agree with, well, most of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 26, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM
Raw Dog is technically not "canon" so yea whatever.
Wat. It may not have appeared on one of their studio albums, but that doesn't make it any less canon than any of the other songs they've done that have not appeared on a proper album.
 
 
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM
From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.
You recall wrong. Yes they were various parts that they had written during the BCaSL sessions, but calling them leftovers implies that they weren't good enough to be used, which was not the case at all. It was simply a case of the band not finding a proper place for those parts in other songs when writing the album proper.

As for it being a "mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes", I don't really see that being the case any more than Erotomania or TDoE. Whether it's a fan favorite or not in comparison to those tracks is a completely different discussion.

Regarding the production, I disagree too. It's obvious that the opening and closing parts of the song were very djent and could be considered muddy, but I wouldn't say that about the rest of the song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 26, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 19, 2020, 03:12:02 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

Now Pull Me Under: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4_jqEBEFs

He went for the craziest, highest part of the song.

Again, I walk beside you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVCyE70MFg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2PN_qEMOVQ-YdwSKBhF-QHYdyiArCqQh1PVHb-2R6wZtjvqOUyNo7UlIs&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

I wonder if someone would want the #F on comeo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on October 26, 2020, 04:33:52 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 26, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM
From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.
You recall wrong. Yes they were various parts that they had written during the BCaSL sessions, but calling them leftovers implies that they weren't good enough to be used, which was not the case at all. It was simply a case of the band not finding a proper place for those parts in other songs when writing the album proper.

....so they were basically parts left over because?

 :D

Evidently "leftover" has become a negative term to imply "Song that wasn't good enough for the record", but anything that doesn't get used for an album is a leftover to me. Kinda like "filler", a filler is just a song written, in the old era of vinyls, to make a too much short album a bit longer. It then became a label to apply on any song that isn't among the best of a record. A song that people find average is not a filler. Black Sabbath's Paranoid is literally a filler, written only because there was room for one more song, and it's one of the undisputed flagship songs of an entire genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 26, 2020, 04:37:39 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 26, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 19, 2020, 03:12:02 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

Now Pull Me Under: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4_jqEBEFs

He went for the craziest, highest part of the song.

Again, I walk beside you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epVCyE70MFg&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2PN_qEMOVQ-YdwSKBhF-QHYdyiArCqQh1PVHb-2R6wZtjvqOUyNo7UlIs&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

I wonder if someone would want the #F on comeo.

Also:

TSCO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Q_jruj-Vw

Vacant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXuvtPVEBJ8
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 26, 2020, 07:16:22 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 26, 2020, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 26, 2020, 09:37:16 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 25, 2020, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 25, 2020, 06:11:36 PM
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true. I think it's a stronger album than many DT fans give it credit for.

Coincidentally, I think Nightmare is about 30-45 minutes too long and could benefit from some trimming.  But the 30 second or so that I could do without are not the same 30 second or so that you are thinking.  :)

So your edit would be between -13:50 & -28:50?  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 26, 2020, 09:49:38 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I've tried, but I just can't. The first part is fine, good actually, but I just don't find any enjoyment in listening to the apologies, or the 12 Promises (I think that is what they are). It just ever so slightly tips the scales from "great song with cool concept" to "therapy session / look how many fellow rockers I know and can get on my album."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 26, 2020, 10:19:24 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 26, 2020, 09:49:38 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 25, 2020, 08:28:33 PM
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I've tried, but I just can't. The first part is fine, good actually, but I just don't find any enjoyment in listening to the apologies, or the 12 Promises (I think that is what they are). It just ever so slightly tips the scales from "great song with cool concept" to "therapy session / look how many fellow rockers I know and can get on my album."

I don't mind that section, but then the "ahhhh"s go on for too long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 26, 2020, 10:48:31 PM
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 26, 2020, 10:48:31 PM
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.

The <whinging about The Astonishing> goes on for too long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 27, 2020, 06:59:05 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 04:52:22 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on October 26, 2020, 10:48:31 PM
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.

The <whinging about The Astonishing> goes on for too long.
The repeatedly posting about MP's press release goes on for too long.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on October 27, 2020, 09:05:49 AM
Quote from: MetropolisWatches on October 25, 2020, 02:50:20 PM
Systematic Chaos has aged remarkably well, and blows away Black Clouds and Silver Linings (the worst Portnoy-era album).

Completely agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on October 27, 2020, 09:33:39 AM
Yeah, I agree.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on October 27, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Totally unlike All The Astonishing bitching. . . . .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 27, 2020, 01:04:08 PM
I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bitch about The Astonishing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 27, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 27, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on October 27, 2020, 10:11:42 PM
I would consider the Self Titled to be the best album with the best lyrical messages. I really enjoy the topics and meanings of each one.

Along For The Ride, just clicked with me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on October 28, 2020, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 27, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 27, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek

And there still aren't enough of them :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on October 28, 2020, 10:07:38 AM
Quote from: nobloodyname on October 28, 2020, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 27, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 27, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek

And there still aren't enough of them :biggrin:

Never enough.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 28, 2020, 11:11:55 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 27, 2020, 10:11:42 PM
I would consider the Self Titled to be the best album with the best lyrical messages. I really enjoy the topics and meanings of each one.

I've probably said this a couple times already, but DT12 helped me get through very hard times in my life, back when it was released. The lyrics played a huge part in that too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on October 28, 2020, 03:18:18 PM
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on October 28, 2020, 03:48:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 28, 2020, 03:18:18 PM
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.

You don't like TBP? damn, that's controversial


As for lyrics, I think Awake is their best album lyrically. The songs are so poetic & have such great imagery while still being about real themes. I&W also has that great poetry, but I could understand the complaint that it can be too abstract at times. The later lyrics are mostly fine, but I feel most of them are a bit too direct & don't have the mystique of the first three albums.

But still, I rank Awake & WDADU pretty low in my DT album rankings, so I'm definitely more of a music gal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on October 28, 2020, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 28, 2020, 03:48:20 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 28, 2020, 03:18:18 PM
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.

You don't like TBP? damn, that's controversial


As for lyrics, I think Awake is their best album lyrically. The songs are so poetic & have such great imagery while still being about real themes. I&W also has that great poetism, but I could understand the complaint that it can be too abstract at times. The later lyrics are mostly fine, but I feel most of them are a bit too direct & don't have the mistique of the first three albums.

But still, I rank Awake & WDADU pretty low in my DT album rankings, so I'mdefinitely more of a music gal.

I quite enjoy DT12, but 'The Bigger Picture' is a bottom-ten song for me, and an automatic skip everytime I listen to that record. Different strokes I suppose.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 28, 2020, 08:58:16 PM
Losing Time / Grand Finale 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCCYVnLBoKA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0dN6dLvB523MT5_thD0U-4LKLihPlwABXqhDGZHbAhsQRDqJ-aHOtoznE&ab_channel=AmadeusValle
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on October 29, 2020, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

I think it'll probably be my least favorite, but only because the other live albums are just that much better. Then again, a lot of people say Chaos in Motion is the worst one and I haven't gotten to that live album yet.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 29, 2020, 08:05:40 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

Do you mean Distance Momories? Or the next one?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on October 29, 2020, 08:46:31 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

CiM is easily replaced. You could replace it with e a coaster, or a frisbee, or one of those AOL free trial CDS that you would get in the mail every couple days back in the 90s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on October 29, 2020, 08:48:30 PM
Chris, that's not right.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Podaar on October 30, 2020, 04:56:43 AM
Actually, he is correct.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 07, 2020, 07:17:37 AM
The Killing Hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPEcu4NxCYk&ab_channel=AmadeusValle
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

We don’t talk about that release here. *Black Panther meme*
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

We don’t talk about that release here. *Black Panther meme*

(https://i.imgur.com/Lg6zFl0.png)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Evai on November 07, 2020, 03:07:27 PM
Meh, it's quite enjoyable as a live CD, lots of interesting changes from the album versions to keep you engaged. James' vocals seemed bad at the time, but compared to the standard set nowadays, they're decent enough
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 07, 2020, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

We don’t talk about that release here. *Black Panther meme*

(https://i.imgur.com/Lg6zFl0.png)

:lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 07, 2020, 04:19:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 07, 2020, 03:07:27 PM
Meh, it's quite enjoyable as a live CD, lots of interesting changes from the album versions to keep you engaged. James' vocals seemed bad at the time, but compared to the standard set nowadays, they're decent enough

I had to search for a copy, but I found one, just for the cd. I enjoyed the many things they did with the songs, and also for the Systematic Chaos songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 07, 2020, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 07, 2020, 04:19:17 PM
Quote from: Evai on November 07, 2020, 03:07:27 PM
Meh, it's quite enjoyable as a live CD, lots of interesting changes from the album versions to keep you engaged. James' vocals seemed bad at the time, but compared to the standard set nowadays, they're decent enough

I had to search for a copy, but I found one, just for the cd. I enjoyed the many things they did with the songs, and also for the Systematic Chaos songs.

I have the DVD but haven't seen it in ages. Might play it later today.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

We don’t talk about that release here. *Black Panther meme*

(https://i.imgur.com/Lg6zFl0.png)

Fyeah, this is the shit

The thing about CiM is that it's very bootleg-ish at best. After two incredibly successful and well produced concert films they really didn't need to pull out another one, and mostly when it was clearly not planned (I have no evidence on this, but basically the montage feels like Portnoy going like: ok boys, let's see what we've got and put it all into one big package). The video is mediocre at best, sound mixing is weird, JLB sounds weird and the overall concept was very ambitious but was not well executed.

The documentary was ace and extremely enjoyable, tho. I really miss that kind of thing in a DT live release.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 07, 2020, 08:30:15 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:46:06 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

We don’t talk about that release here. *Black Panther meme*

(https://i.imgur.com/Lg6zFl0.png)

Fyeah, this is the shit

The thing about CiM is that it's very bootleg-ish at best. After two incredibly successful and well produced concert films they really didn't need to pull out another one, and mostly when it was clearly not planned (I have no evidence on this, but basically the montage feels like Portnoy going like: ok boys, let's see what we've got and put it all into one big package). The video is mediocre at best, sound mixing is weird, JLB sounds weird and the overall concept was very ambitious but was not well executed.

The documentary was ace and extremely enjoyable, tho. I really miss that kind of thing in a DT live release.

If the documentary was as good as the Systematic Chaos one, then Herrick needs to check out Chaos In Motion ASAP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 08:37:08 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 07, 2020, 08:30:15 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
The thing about CiM is that it's very bootleg-ish at best. After two incredibly successful and well produced concert films they really didn't need to pull out another one, and mostly when it was clearly not planned (I have no evidence on this, but basically the montage feels like Portnoy going like: ok boys, let's see what we've got and put it all into one big package). The video is mediocre at best, sound mixing is weird, JLB sounds weird and the overall concept was very ambitious but was not well executed.

The documentary was ace and extremely enjoyable, tho. I really miss that kind of thing in a DT live release.

If the documentary was as good as the Systematic Chaos one, then Herrick needs to check out Chaos In Motion ASAP.

I'm fairly certain that that is the Systematic Chaos one :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 07, 2020, 08:44:03 PM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on November 07, 2020, 08:37:08 PM
Quote from: Herrick on November 07, 2020, 08:30:15 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
The thing about CiM is that it's very bootleg-ish at best. After two incredibly successful and well produced concert films they really didn't need to pull out another one, and mostly when it was clearly not planned (I have no evidence on this, but basically the montage feels like Portnoy going like: ok boys, let's see what we've got and put it all into one big package). The video is mediocre at best, sound mixing is weird, JLB sounds weird and the overall concept was very ambitious but was not well executed.

The documentary was ace and extremely enjoyable, tho. I really miss that kind of thing in a DT live release.

If the documentary was as good as the Systematic Chaos one, then Herrick needs to check out Chaos In Motion ASAP.

I'm fairly certain that that is the Systematic Chaos one :lol

Aww shit. Chaos in Motion...I get it now. I was thinking it was a documentary for Octavarium.

So is the concert stuff bad quality? Is it worth checking out? I've only ever seen the documentary.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 09:13:03 PM
It’s really bootleg-ish. Feels more like one of DT’s “official” bootlegs than as a proper and well-produced concert film. It has its charm, but it’s been years since I saw it and I haven’t had the desire of checking it out ever since.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 07, 2020, 09:38:34 PM
I remember it came out around the time Within Temptation released Black Symphony, which was a fantastic video. Then months later Maiden released Flight 666. And I thought "c'mon DT, these are quality releases, what the heck are you doing putting out a video like CiM?" 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 07, 2020, 09:52:42 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 09:13:03 PM
It’s really bootleg-ish. Feels more like one of DT’s “official” bootlegs than as a proper and well-produced concert film. It has its charm, but it’s been years since I saw it and I haven’t had the desire of checking it out ever since.

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 07, 2020, 09:38:34 PM
I remember it came out around the time Within Temptation released Black Symphony, which was a fantastic video. Then months later Maiden released Flight 666. And I thought "c'mon DT, these are quality releases, what the heck are you doing putting out a video like CiM?"

I see. I'll look on The Tube and see if it's worth checking out the whole concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 12:36:17 AM
Didn't the Record Label want a DVD. So MP had to dig through videos and audio. I remember him saying this due to the differences in the Audio for Blind Faith and Surrounded. The Video is from a different show as that had better video quality and the audio had better audio.

It does have the famous "We're gonna killed up here."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 08, 2020, 03:25:01 AM
Wow, they said "Hey we want a DVD, so go through all your material, no matter how mediocre it is, and we'll release that, because we ain't filing anything on a proper budget?"
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 08, 2020, 06:16:29 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 07, 2020, 07:17:37 AM
The Killing Hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPEcu4NxCYk&ab_channel=AmadeusValle
That was painful to watch and listen to..  :facepalm: :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 08, 2020, 06:22:51 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on October 28, 2020, 08:58:16 PM
Losing Time / Grand Finale 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCCYVnLBoKA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0dN6dLvB523MT5_thD0U-4LKLihPlwABXqhDGZHbAhsQRDqJ-aHOtoznE&ab_channel=AmadeusValle
This is much better than the Killing Hand one..  :coolio
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 01:41:17 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on November 08, 2020, 03:25:01 AM
Wow, they said "Hey we want a DVD, so go through all your material, no matter how mediocre it is, and we'll release that, because we ain't filing anything on a proper budget?"

Pretty much, It explains why the videos are bootleg quality. All the behind the scenes videos, were made by MP himself. Remember, MP is also a movie nerd, and doesn't surprise me how much he liked to film, and be on camera.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 07:41:14 PM
The thing about CiM is that it's very bootleg-ish at best. After two incredibly successful and well produced concert films they really didn't need to pull out another one, and mostly when it was clearly not planned (I have no evidence on this, but basically the montage feels like Portnoy going like: ok boys, let's see what we've got and put it all into one big package).
You're not too far off on your guessing. You are correct in that they originally weren't going to put out a live video release since they had just done L@B and Score (never mind 5YiaL and LSFNY before it with only the SDoIT album cycle not having a live release). But by the end of the tour, MP changed his mind and decided to do a release anyway.

IIRC, a lot of this was due to songs that played on that tour that had not been documented or were significantly different from what had been released on an official live release up to that point - several of which probably would not have gotten cycled back into the master setlist for a number of tours. And of course there were all the SC tracks, too. He had pro-shot video footage of 6 different shows, so he figured he'd put out more of a compilation release similar to 5YiaL rather than not have any sort of official document of that tour at all.
 
 
Quote from: Cool Chris on November 07, 2020, 09:38:34 PM
I remember it came out around the time Within Temptation released Black Symphony, which was a fantastic video. Then months later Maiden released Flight 666. And I thought "c'mon DT, these are quality releases, what the heck are you doing putting out a video like CiM?"
Actually MP warned everyone upfront *not* to expect the same quality as what we saw with L@B and Score. So it wasn't as if this was some hidden secret and he was trying to pull the wool over the fans' eyes.
 
 
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 12:36:17 AM
Didn't the Record Label want a DVD. So MP had to dig through videos and audio. I remember him saying this due to the differences in the Audio for Blind Faith and Surrounded. The Video is from a different show as that had better video quality and the audio had better audio.
No - I don't believe the label had anything to do with CiM at all. The differences between the audio for BF and Surrounded were for a completely different reason. MP explained in my interview with him in 2009:
Quote
Putting together that set, I had based the song picks on the video footage I had. I looked at what was best represented on video and I picked the Toronto show for Blind Faith and Surrounded. I had my list of all the videos that were being edited for the video and I sent Kevin Shirley the list of what to mix the audio from. And he mixed what we thought was the Toronto show for Blind Faith and Surrounded. We synced it back up to the video, only to find out that it was from a completely different show – somebody sent him the wrong tapes, and we couldn’t find the Toronto audio. So the audio for Toronto was missing and here we were with this mixed audio of Blind Faith and Surrounded, and we had no idea what show it was even from. So even to this day, I have no idea of what show those specific performances are from.
Not too long ago, while listening to a bunch of recordings from that tour, I finally figured out that recordings of those songs on CD are actually from the Calgary show on 2008/05/09, so that mystery has been solved.  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 08, 2020, 02:17:00 PM
CiM is a great package.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:10:36 PM

 
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 12:36:17 AM
Didn't the Record Label want a DVD. So MP had to dig through videos and audio. I remember him saying this due to the differences in the Audio for Blind Faith and Surrounded. The Video is from a different show as that had better video quality and the audio had better audio.
No - I don't believe the label had anything to do with CiM at all. The differences between the audio for BF and Surrounded were for a completely different reason. MP explained in my interview with him in 2009:
Quote
Putting together that set, I had based the song picks on the video footage I had. I looked at what was best represented on video and I picked the Toronto show for Blind Faith and Surrounded. I had my list of all the videos that were being edited for the video and I sent Kevin Shirley the list of what to mix the audio from. And he mixed what we thought was the Toronto show for Blind Faith and Surrounded. We synced it back up to the video, only to find out that it was from a completely different show – somebody sent him the wrong tapes, and we couldn’t find the Toronto audio. So the audio for Toronto was missing and here we were with this mixed audio of Blind Faith and Surrounded, and we had no idea what show it was even from. So even to this day, I have no idea of what show those specific performances are from.
Not too long ago, while listening to a bunch of recordings from that tour, I finally figured out that recordings of those songs on CD are actually from the Calgary show on 2008/05/09, so that mystery has been solved.  :P

 :tup :tup

Thanks for that....I wasn't entirely sure either.

I was going to also ask why it wasn't listed on the Box, and it was answered.

Do you know why CiM was done the way it was done?

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Do you know why CiM was done the way it was done?
What specifically?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 08, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:10:36 PM

Quote from: Cool Chris on November 07, 2020, 09:38:34 PM
I remember it came out around the time Within Temptation released Black Symphony, which was a fantastic video. Then months later Maiden released Flight 666. And I thought "c'mon DT, these are quality releases, what the heck are you doing putting out a video like CiM?"
Actually MP warned everyone upfront *not* to expect the same quality as what we saw with L@B and Score. So it wasn't as if this was some hidden secret and he was trying to pull the wool over the fans' eyes.

I do recall that, and appreciated the honesty from the band. I was just disappointed a bit a guess, and maybe some of that was being spoiled coming on the heels of high quality releases like Budokan and Score.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Do you know why CiM was done the way it was done?
What specifically?

Using  the different videos for different songs?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 09, 2020, 06:44:46 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 02:24:32 PM
Do you know why CiM was done the way it was done?
What specifically?
Using  the different videos for different songs?

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Quote
Putting together that set, I had based the song picks on the video footage I had. I looked at what was best represented on video and I picked the Toronto show for Blind Faith and Surrounded.
;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 12, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
So all this CiM talk prompted me to give it a listen. After a couple songs, the audio is much better than I remembered. I probably dismissed it due to being turned off by the video quality.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 12, 2020, 08:36:21 PM
It's a really good package. You get the SC tracks..TDEN, ITPOE, TMOLS, plus some other great songs like Scarred, Lines In The Sand (Yay Boston!) and Blind Faith.

Never understood the flak it got.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on November 12, 2020, 08:40:20 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 12, 2020, 08:36:21 PM
It's a really good package. You get the SC tracks..TDEN, ITPOE, TMOLS, plus some other great songs like Scarred, Lines In The Sand (Yay Boston!) and Blind Faith.

Never understood the flak it got.

Same.  I always quite enjoyed it myself.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 12, 2020, 08:46:04 PM
It's a solid set of songs. Though I remember the medley got slammed pretty hard by a vocal anti-medley contingent as well.

As I said, I was disappointed in the video quality; with limited funds, I opted to not buy it in favor of what I considered superior releases. Looking back, I think I also didn't care for it not being from one show. I know Flight 666 wasn't either, but there was a uniformity all the footage, and coupled with the awesomeness of that release, I guess that made it a non-issue.

And I already had three great videos (Live Scenes, Budokan, and Score) for my DT viewing pleasure.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 12, 2020, 09:01:56 PM
The thing about the video is that for the Boston songs, it was basically the in house video feed that showed on the screens on each side of the stage. I love that footage.


Count me in as part of the anti Medley faction. To me, that was just a head start to get out of the parking lot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on November 12, 2020, 09:20:54 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 12, 2020, 09:01:56 PM
The thing about the video is that for the Boston songs, it was basically the in house video feed that showed on the screens on each side of the stage. I love that footage.


Count me in as part of the anti Medley faction. To me, that was just a head start to get out of the parking lot.

I don't like medleys either. I'd rather hear the songs in their entirety. BUTT I bet medleys are pretty fun to hear it when you're there at a concert.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 12, 2020, 09:45:23 PM
I'm the opposite - I do like medleys, especially when they're really well constructed. The Instrumedley is one of the best ones, IMO. DT has had some good ones. Schmedley Wilcox was good, altho it didn't flow quite as smoothly during some of the transitions. But one thing I thought that was cool regarding that medley was that MP took all the semi-epic closing songs and put them all together.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on November 12, 2020, 09:57:53 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 12, 2020, 09:45:23 PM
I'm the opposite - I do like medleys, especially when they're really well constructed. The Instrumedley is one of the best ones, IMO. DT has had some good ones. Schmedley Wilcox was good, altho it didn't flow quite as smoothly during some of the transitions. But one thing I thought that was cool regarding that medley was that MP took all the semi-epic closing songs and put them all together.

The Instrumedley is awesome, except I didn't know LTE at the time, so was pretty confused as to what the hell they were playing for a couple minutes. I still would rather it have been LTE-free but it doesn't ruin it for me.

And yes they (Mike) did a good job constructing the Wilcox based on the song selections and what he was shooting for.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on November 13, 2020, 07:16:14 AM
I like the medleys of other band’s songs (like the Big Medley) and Instrumedley is really well constructed for a 12 minute “look what we can do” part of the concert. I’m not a fan of Schmedley Wilcox. Any one of those songs on their own would have been a more satisfying show closer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 13, 2020, 10:08:36 AM
Today I came across Stained Glass bootleg which from 98 FII tour.
https://youtu.be/TfIejrYCqWM

I don't understand why DT stopped doing this unplugged concept. In this bootleg James sounds amazing. I hope in the near future they'll give a shot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 13, 2020, 10:24:01 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 13, 2020, 10:08:36 AM
Today I came across Stained Glass bootleg which from 98 FII tour.
https://youtu.be/TfIejrYCqWM

I don't understand why DT stopped doing this unplugged concept. In this bootleg James sounds amazing. I hope in the near future they'll give a shot.

It's not like it was a regular thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on November 13, 2020, 12:21:04 PM
Who said it was a regular thing? It is what they did from time to time in the past and I hope they'll do it again at least once.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 13, 2020, 01:06:02 PM
They had an acoustic segment of the show for the ADTOE tour, and it was different and very cool for them to do. It's more likely they bring back that kind of element than the full unplugged show format.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 13, 2020, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 13, 2020, 12:21:04 PM
Who said it was a regular thing? It is what they did from time to time in the past and I hope they'll do it again at least once.

Writing "I don't understand why DT stopped doing this unplugged concept" implies that it was something more than a one-off thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Rathma on November 15, 2020, 09:40:18 PM
Kevin Moore
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Dunno if i've said this already but...


.. Dream Theater are a far superior band to RUSH.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on November 21, 2020, 06:04:30 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
.. Dream Theater are a far superior band to RUSH.

I completely agree, but I'm not sure someone like JP would say the same :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 21, 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Are they superior to Rush in some ways? Sure. But the same can be said the other way around, too. And DT *far* superior to Rush? I think not.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on November 21, 2020, 08:08:53 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 21, 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Are they superior to Rush in some ways? Sure. But the same can be said the other way around, too. And DT *far* superior to Rush? I think not.

Yeah, that's a far cry. :neverusethis:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 22, 2020, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Dunno if i've said this already but...


.. Dream Theater are a far superior band to RUSH.

NOT!   
Rush only had three people putting out just as big of a sound as DT.   Sure, John Petrucci is a superior guitar player than Alex, but Alex's creativity and sound make up for it.  Jordan is a real pianist and keyboard player and Geddy uses them for more soundscapes, but he also sings and plays complex bass lines at the same time. Neither Portnoy or Mangini are superior to Neil Peart in any way.
I'm sure DT are more accomplished musicians as a whole, but Rush is just as much of a powerhouse band as DT but with only three members.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 22, 2020, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Dunno if i've said this already but...


.. Dream Theater are a far superior band to RUSH.
Nice.

I like DT far more, but in the overall impact they had on the music scene as a whole they will always be miles ahead of DT.

But then again, I enjoy DT's music much more but that's just a matter of taste. I love Rush, but if I could only take the discography of either to a desert island to live for the rest of my days I'd take DT in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 22, 2020, 03:42:06 PM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 22, 2020, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 21, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
Dunno if i've said this already but...


.. Dream Theater are a far superior band to RUSH.
Nice.



 I love Rush, but if I could only take the discography of either to a desert island to live for the rest of my days I'd take DT in a heartbeat.
Dang,  that would be a tough choice as both are my favorite bands. 🤔
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 22, 2020, 03:44:23 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 21, 2020, 08:08:04 PM
Are they superior to Rush in some ways? Sure. But the same can be said the other way around, too. And DT *far* superior to Rush? I think not.

This x 1000
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on November 23, 2020, 01:59:45 AM
Let me just say that I've not heard a single RUSH song that's made me go " Ahhhh. Now I get it ".

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on November 23, 2020, 03:18:55 AM
Quote from: SeRoX on November 13, 2020, 10:08:36 AM
Today I came across Stained Glass bootleg which from 98 FII tour.
https://youtu.be/TfIejrYCqWM

I don't understand why DT stopped doing this unplugged concept. In this bootleg James sounds amazing. I hope in the near future they'll give a shot.

What a great show!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on November 23, 2020, 03:36:00 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 23, 2020, 01:59:45 AM
Let me just say that I've not heard a single RUSH song that's made me go " Ahhhh. Now I get it ".
Then you probably never will.  ;D
I've heard a few people say the same thing about Dream Theater. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on November 23, 2020, 06:02:24 AM
Rush decided to make pop rock for 15 years, which to me is the biggest tipping point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on November 23, 2020, 02:50:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 23, 2020, 01:59:45 AM
Let me just say that I've not heard a single RUSH song that's made me go " Ahhhh. Now I get it ".

Have you heard all their albums from 1976-1982?
If so, then not much else you can do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on November 24, 2020, 02:39:02 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on November 23, 2020, 03:36:00 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 23, 2020, 01:59:45 AM
Let me just say that I've not heard a single RUSH song that's made me go " Ahhhh. Now I get it ".
Then you probably never will.  ;D


Not true. Happened to me about 7 years ago. Thankfully just in time to catch them on their last tour. I still don't worship them. In some ways I feel they're like Iron Maiden. Excellent band. Legends? Absolutely. Are there better bands out there? Yes, many.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on November 24, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on November 24, 2020, 02:39:02 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on November 23, 2020, 03:36:00 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on November 23, 2020, 01:59:45 AM
Let me just say that I've not heard a single RUSH song that's made me go " Ahhhh. Now I get it ".
Then you probably never will.  ;D
Not true. Happened to me about 7 years ago. Thankfully just in time to catch them on their last tour. I still don't worship them. In some ways I feel they're like Iron Maiden. Excellent band. Legends? Absolutely. Are there better bands out there? Yes, many.
Good to know. What finally made them "click" for you?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on November 25, 2020, 10:20:04 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 12, 2020, 09:45:23 PM
I'm the opposite - I do like medleys, especially when they're really well constructed. The Instrumedley is one of the best ones, IMO. DT has had some good ones. Schmedley Wilcox was good, altho it didn't flow quite as smoothly during some of the transitions. But one thing I thought that was cool regarding that medley was that MP took all the semi-epic closing songs and put them all together.

I always liked the way the Metropolis/Learning to Live/The Crimson Sunset medley on Once in a Livetime.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 04:44:46 AM
I always liked the occasional "easy" song from DT. Forsaken, I Walk Beside You, heck, even You Not Me for what it is are all good. I wouldn't want them to turn so soft but yeah, the occasional Speak to Me on every album is more than welcomed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 09, 2020, 05:51:25 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 04:44:46 AM
I always liked the occasional "easy" song from DT. Forsaken, I Walk Beside You, heck, even You Not Me for what it is are all good. I wouldn't want them to turn so soft but yeah, the occasional Speak to Me on every album is more than welcomed.

I also like You Not Me! I Think it is a great song. 
Also, I Walk Beside You is probably one of my top5 favourite DT songs  :laugh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on December 09, 2020, 06:53:51 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 09, 2020, 04:44:46 AM
I always liked the occasional "easy" song from DT. Forsaken, I Walk Beside You, heck, even You Not Me for what it is are all good. I wouldn't want them to turn so soft but yeah, the occasional Speak to Me on every album is more than welcomed.

I agree 100%
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

Not controversial to me; I happen to agree with you (I'm a big fan of "Cover My Eyes" as well). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

I don't think this is a controversial opinion on DTF where a lot of folks also like COTC.  I've expressed my opinion about those songs many times.  In short, I think none of those songs are any better than average and most are WELL below average.  I have no problem with "simpler," "radio-friendly" songs.  DT has plenty of those that I love, but the COTC songs didn't make it on an official release for a good reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
  DT has plenty of those that I love, but the COTC songs didn't make it on an official release for a good reason.

Hah! I've said the same thing, but they definitely made a mistake leaving Raise The Knife off.

Where Are You Now sounds like some awful Tate-ryche song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:41:46 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
they definitely made a mistake leaving Raise The Knife off.

The love for that song here on DTF swells every so often, so I go back to check it out once in a while and always come away wondering what I'm missing that everyone else sees.  If they had placed To Live Forever and Don't Look Past Me in a different spot during the I&W&B tour, it would have been a perfect time for a piss break.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 09, 2020, 10:03:52 AM
Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

Not controversial to me; I happen to agree with you (I'm a big fan of "Cover My Eyes" as well).
All of this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 09, 2020, 10:06:16 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:41:46 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
they definitely made a mistake leaving Raise The Knife off.

The love for that song here on DTF swells every so often, so I go back to check it out once in a while and always come away wondering what I'm missing that everyone else sees.  If they had placed To Live Forever and Don't Look Past Me in a different spot during the I&W&B tour, it would have been a perfect time for a piss break.

To Live Forever is a piss break wherever it is placed in the setlist.


The Score version of RTK is so much stronger than what they recorded in the FII sessions, but even that version would be preferable to a lot of what made it to FII.



Oh, and I love Cover My Eyes, for the record.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on December 09, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on December 09, 2020, 10:27:36 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
Quote from: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

I don't think this is a controversial opinion on DTF where a lot of folks also like COTC.  I've expressed my opinion about those songs many times.  In short, I think none of those songs are any better than average and most are WELL below average.  I have no problem with "simpler," "radio-friendly" songs.  DT has plenty of those that I love, but the COTC songs didn't make it on an official release for a good reason.

Yeah, I agree that it isn't really "controversial."  As you say, a lot of folks here like those songs, myself included.  But putting it in a "top 5" ranked against DT's studio albums is definitely a minority opinion.  That's a pretty strong take. 

But I also think the opinion that they were left off the album "for a reason," and the obvious implication that they are "inferior" to all songs that made the cut is a bit too strong and assumes some things that may or may not actually be true.  Getting into obviously subjective territory here, but I think this would probably be close to the consensus if you could ask a lot of people:  while perhaps none of those songs feel quite as strong as the ones that have come to be "classics," a good many of them are at least as strong as the less-liked songs from the album, and a lot of people would probably feel that a number of them are right up there with the "middle-of-the-road" FII album tracks as well.  I know that would hold true for me.  I don't reach for those songs often.  But when I do, I enjoy them.  And I have to say, I enjoy most of them more than I enjoy some of the songs that made the album.  The thing is, if you could throw all the songs from that era into a pot and ask 100 fans to pick whichever ones they liked best to come up with a single album, you would probably get a ton of variation.  And if I had to guess, I would think that most versions would  be liked about as much as the album we got, give or take a small margin.  I know that for me, if I could sub out a few of the album tracks for a few of the extras that didn't make it, FII would be a "better" album, as far as I'm concerned. 

At the end of the day, I think it's cool that the fans even got access to these songs.  DT doesn't really have a long list of singles with b-sides.  But these songs are kind of the equivalent.  And seen as such, I think they easily stand up as well as any band's non-album rarities, which is to say that there are some that don't feel album quality, some that feel like they could easily have made the cut if the decision was made on a different day, and the rare gem or two that have become somewhat cult-favorites.  And, again, it's pretty cool that we even have these.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 11:20:55 AM
Quote from: DTA on December 09, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:28:03 AM
Quote from: TAC on December 09, 2020, 09:25:40 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
  DT has plenty of those that I love, but the COTC songs didn't make it on an official release for a good reason.

Hah! I've said the same thing, but they definitely made a mistake leaving Raise The Knife off.

Where Are You Now sounds like some awful Tate-ryche song.

MP's description of Where Are You Now is spot on. It is a song where you can tell, they didn't know where to take the song.

I think it's an excellent song, but it does need a bit of reworking on some parts. The parts I do like are the keyboard solo and the guitar solo reprise of that melody, and the key and chord progressions as well. The tone, style, and feel each of the guys have all fit into that key and progression, it's just it meanders and floats trying to decide which way to go. The lyrics are fitting for that reason. Describing the song itself, as it peers through different avenues.



Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 09, 2020, 11:57:20 AM
Regarding Raise The Knife...

It's excellent live, and that is shown in Score.

If it were to have been on the album. I would've gotten rid of Burning My Soul, and Hell's Kitchen. Replaced those with Raise The Knife, as the ending to Raise The Knife can go into Lines In The Sand.

I'd actually like the album a lot if it had this tracklisting

1. Cover My Eyes (I wanted New Millenium to also stay, but I wanted Cover My Eyes to be included, and it's also not a bad opener with the intro being started by guitar.)
2. Where Are You Now? (As I stated, if they were to clean this song a bit more, It's pretty good as it is, there is just one section I feel they could trim off, 4:58-4:50 is that section, well they could work that out a bit more, but other than it's a good 2nd song. With the Drums coming in after the ending of Cover My Eyes vocal outro "Have I Lost My Mind")
3. Peruvian Skies
4. Hollow Years (This one includes the pre-chorus before the Chorus and the extended Live Solo)
5. Raise The Knife
6. Lines In The Sand (This one includes the demo verse)
7. Take Away My Pain (The Once In A LIvetime version, I like that blend of the studio and the demo)
8. Hell's Kitchen (I didn't want to leave this one out, as it's a beautiful instrumental, so Just Let Me Breathe and Anna Lee had to go)
9. Trial of Tears

I made playlist and will listen to it later to see how well it flows. But, I checked out some transitions and they work great. These are all songs I like and the ones I think would work well as the album, Falling Into Infinity.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on December 09, 2020, 10:27:36 AM
Yeah, I agree that it isn't really "controversial."  As you say, a lot of folks here like those songs, myself included.  But putting it in a "top 5" ranked against DT's studio albums is definitely a minority opinion.  That's a pretty strong take. 

But I also think the opinion that they were left off the album "for a reason," and the obvious implication that they are "inferior" to all songs that made the cut is a bit too strong and assumes some things that may or may not actually be true.  Getting into obviously subjective territory here, but I think this would probably be close to the consensus if you could ask a lot of people:  while perhaps none of those songs feel quite as strong as the ones that have come to be "classics," a good many of them are at least as strong as the less-liked songs from the album, and a lot of people would probably feel that a number of them are right up there with the "middle-of-the-road" FII album tracks as well.  I know that would hold true for me.  I don't reach for those songs often.  But when I do, I enjoy them.  And I have to say, I enjoy most of them more than I enjoy some of the songs that made the album.  The thing is, if you could throw all the songs from that era into a pot and ask 100 fans to pick whichever ones they liked best to come up with a single album, you would probably get a ton of variation.  And if I had to guess, I would think that most versions would  be liked about as much as the album we got, give or take a small margin.  I know that for me, if I could sub out a few of the album tracks for a few of the extras that didn't make it, FII would be a "better" album, as far as I'm concerned. 

At the end of the day, I think it's cool that the fans even got access to these songs.  DT doesn't really have a long list of singles with b-sides.  But these songs are kind of the equivalent.  And seen as such, I think they easily stand up as well as any band's non-album rarities, which is to say that there are some that don't feel album quality, some that feel like they could easily have made the cut if the decision was made on a different day, and the rare gem or two that have become somewhat cult-favorites.  And, again, it's pretty cool that we even have these.

At the end of the day, I'm definitely in the minority among DTF dwellers when it comes to the FII rejects.  I also think FII is a bottom-four DT album.  For my money, as bland as I think it is, I think RTK is the best of the batch, but even at that, I think it's better than only New Millennium (a bottom 5 DT song for me -- and when I say that, I'm only considering actual album tracks) and maybe Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe.  Comparing the rest of the rejects to New Millennium isn't something I really care to do, but that's the level they're on.

As far as why those songs got left off, this is the best, reliable information I know of on the subject:  "Rather than looking at which we thought were the weakest, we went for what we knew were the strongest.  We knew Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears, New Millennium, Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe were the strongest pieces that had to make the record.  Initially, the record was only going to have 9 tracks - originally Anna Lee and You Not Me weren't going to be on the record.  So those two tracks were going to be leftovers, and then it turned out with all the chopping that Kevin Shirley was doing to the songs, we had a little more room to fit them.  So we ended up squeezing those in - those were the two that were backup choices.  It was hard - I think Speak to Me is a strong song, and The Way It Used to Be has some really cool parts.  And obviously it killed us not to include Metropolis pt.2, but it worked out since we expanded it into what became Scenes From a Memory."  https://mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/31.aspx

If, in fact, the consensus among the band was that NM, PS and JLMB "were the strongest pieces," then I can only disagree, but I find it interesting all of MP's lyrics are on this list, so I have some doubt that this was a full band consensus.  Now...this doesn't tell us why they went with, e.g., Take Away My Pain or Hollow Years instead of, e.g., Speak to Me.  However, the comment about AL and YNM being the "backup choices" implies that they thought those songs (along with the other nine songs that make the album) were stronger/better (or whatever word you like) than RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM (I don't know if they gave any real consideration to including DLPM and TLF on FII -- I'm guessing they didn't).  For example, the could have left off AL and YNM (combined length of 10:49) in favor of the 11:35 RTK.  Did they do that because they viewed AL and YNM better/stronger than RTK (and note that they could be "better" because they were more commercial and wanted that element).  Bottom line, whatever the reasons are, there were reasons why the band members thought the songs that made the album should make it over the songs that didn't.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on December 09, 2020, 12:38:05 PM
I made a poll:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55985.msg2728947#msg2728947
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on December 09, 2020, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 11:20:55 AM
Quote from: DTA on December 09, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)

Oof, another LITS-denier..  :lol

It's just one of the most stunning tracks they've ever made. Even my girlfriend who thinks DT is the goofiest shit ever appreciates it. What don't you like about it?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on December 09, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
Quote from: adastra on December 09, 2020, 02:38:06 AM
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

I prefer the non-metal side of DT to the metal side (in fact I don’t care much for the heavier metal side much at all beyond Awake). Even back when I was somewhat into metal, I always found myself drawn mostly to songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows, Space Dye Vest, Hollow Years, Hell’s Kitchen, Take Away My Pain, Speak to Me, even Anna Lee. Give me those and some of the proggier heavy songs like Learning to Live, 6:00, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears. That’s the good stuff.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: adastra on December 09, 2020, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: HOF on December 09, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
I prefer the non-metal side of DT to the metal side (in fact I don’t care much for the heavier metal side much at all beyond Awake). Even back when I was somewhat into metal, I always found myself drawn mostly to songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows, Space Dye Vest, Hollow Years, Hell’s Kitchen, Take Away My Pain, Speak to Me, even Anna Lee. Give me those and some of the proggier heavy songs like Learning to Live, 6:00, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears. That’s the good stuff.

I like you, man!  ;D

I remember when my brother introduced me to Dream Theater in the year 2000. It was with SFAM.  I listened it for like a year before getting more Dream Theater. I got Falling Into Infinity and downloaded Once in A Livetime Outtakes (1998)  from Kazaa.
I Was totally shocked with how "soft" or "non-metal" the songs were.
It took me some time to get to appreciate the softer side more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 06:51:55 AM
Quote from: DTA on December 09, 2020, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: Stadler on December 09, 2020, 11:20:55 AM
Quote from: DTA on December 09, 2020, 10:12:01 AM
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)

Oof, another LITS-denier..  :lol

It's just one of the most stunning tracks they've ever made. Even my girlfriend who thinks DT is the goofiest shit ever appreciates it. What don't you like about it?

The song itself is pretty good.  Doug Pinnick slaughtering chickens ruins the entire piece for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on December 10, 2020, 07:41:42 AM
OK all you singers out there, what is the deal with JLB putting the "W" sound in front of all his vowels? "Wi'm alive again, darkness far behind me" or "Wopen up, wopen up". Seriously WTH? What faulty technique is he using?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on December 10, 2020, 07:43:00 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on December 10, 2020, 07:41:42 AM
OK all you singers out there, what is the deal with JLB putting the "W" sound in front of all his vowels? "Wi'm alive again, darkness far behind me" or "Wopen up, wopen up". Seriously WTH? What faulty technique is he using?

Being Canadian. ;-)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on December 10, 2020, 09:23:29 AM
Uh no that's not it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on December 10, 2020, 10:48:03 AM
I got one - Raise the Knife is not that good of a song and You Not Me is better. Just sayin........
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on December 10, 2020, 10:52:17 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on December 10, 2020, 09:23:29 AM
Uh no that's not it.

Serious answer (as someone who took one vocal class and sang in choir in college), there is a technique called singing “into the mask” where you try to place your voice in front of your face. I recall being taught to create resonance in the lips and nose area. One exercise was to purse your lips and hum/blow to make them vibrate so you could I guess feel the pitch in that area.

When you make the W sound your lips contract and your voice places kind of forward as opposed to in the back of your throat (try it!). I’m guessing here, but maybe that’s the reason. It sort of projects the vowel sound forward “into the mask.”
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 10, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on December 10, 2020, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 10, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

I agree. It kind of looks ridiculous at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on December 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: HOF on December 10, 2020, 10:52:17 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on December 10, 2020, 09:23:29 AM
Uh no that's not it.

Serious answer (as someone who took one vocal class and sang in choir in college), there is a technique called singing “into the mask” where you try to place your voice in front of your face. I recall being taught to create resonance in the lips and nose area. One exercise was to purse your lips and hum/blow to make them vibrate so you could I guess feel the pitch in that area.

When you make the W sound your lips contract and your voice places kind of forward as opposed to in the back of your throat (try it!). I’m guessing here, but maybe that’s the reason. It sort of projects the vowel sound forward “into the mask.”

Thank you for clarifying that!!! I always felt it had something to do with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 02:28:18 PM
Quote from: TAC on December 10, 2020, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 10, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

I agree. It kind of looks ridiculous at this point.
Counterpoint: it's not like they're going to wake up tomorrow with a full head of gray hair, it takes a loooong time to grow out the dye and maybe they're not that comfortable with having a horizontal Cruella do for the next three or four years  :angel:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:01:27 PM
Can you believe I never thought of that?  :lol silly me...

I never thought that once you dye your hair you're "stuck" with it or with a months, if not years, long growth. I guess it could be worked around by dying the hair of the natural color to smooth over the transition.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on December 10, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
James could just go lighter and lighter.  He used to have lighter hair, or was that dyed..  :-\

Mangini looks natural, and I haven't seen roots yet.  JP had brown hair when it was natural. He should go with that for a while. The little bit in his beard is ok.

I am a chick. I look at how they look. I dye my hair.  Gray on men isn't better when they have long hair. 

(imo, their best look was during the BTFW record)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:06:12 PM
I always liked their Octavarium look, the perfect balance between being badass rockers, and adult men going well into their 40s.

(https://rockciclopedia.com/wiki/images/2/2d/Dream_Theater_2005.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on December 10, 2020, 03:07:26 PM
If they go natural grey, their marketability plummets.

It sucks but it's the truth.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on December 10, 2020, 03:10:11 PM
They should all cut their hair and let it go gray. Except Myung who doesn’t age anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on December 10, 2020, 03:12:10 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:06:12 PM
I always liked their Octavarium look, the perfect balance between being badass rockers, and adult men going well into their 40s.

(https://rockciclopedia.com/wiki/images/2/2d/Dream_Theater_2005.jpg)

One of the things I dislike about metal is that you have to have a certain faux tough “look.” DT fell into this once they got signed by Roadrunner.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:11:28 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on December 10, 2020, 03:01:51 PM
James could just go lighter and lighter.  He used to have lighter hair, or was that dyed..  :-\

Mangini looks natural, and I haven't seen roots yet.  JP had brown hair when it was natural. He should go with that for a while. The little bit in his beard is ok.

I am a chick. I look at how they look. I dye my hair.  Gray on men isn't better when they have long hair. 

(imo, their best look was during the BTFW record)
James has kind of a midtone brown naturally, but I guess he started dyeing it way back in the 90's. I honestly don't know why both he and JP went for the blue-black, it's a nightmare to get out of. Especially James with all those years of hair dye experience :lol JP probably fell into the classic mistake of picking by the color on the box, instead of reading how the level actually turns out. Sometimes you want dark brown and get ink black.

Quote from: HOF on December 10, 2020, 03:12:10 PM
One of the things I dislike about metal is that you have to have a certain faux tough “look.” DT fell into this once they got signed by Roadrunner.
You don't *have to*, plenty of bands who look different. We have to assume that at this point, this is just how they want to look. I've just grown tired of seeing them in printed T-shirts, but I don't mind the jewelery and tattoos and all the rest, though sometimes those jeans are even more garish than the tees :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 10, 2020, 09:23:51 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 10, 2020, 04:11:28 PM

You don't *have to*, plenty of bands who look different. We have to assume that at this point, this is just how they want to look. I've just grown tired of seeing them in printed T-shirts, but I don't mind the jewelery and tattoos and all the rest, though sometimes those jeans are even more garish than the tees :lol

I was actually going to write this.  The hair is the least of the problem. I thought they had a cool look around the Octavarium years, especially Mike (I think he's a very handsome man in that shot).   Now you look at the promo pictures and they look like any of 100 bands, with the black tees with the silver design, the black jeans and the boots.  It's like a uniform at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on December 10, 2020, 10:07:16 PM
Promo pics has never been their strong suit. It's like they took a couple before they figured out how they all wanted to stand comfortably, and the photog said "eh, that's good enough, I'm done here."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on December 10, 2020, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: TheLordOfTheStrings on December 10, 2020, 01:30:19 PM
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

"Two minutes for looking so good."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on December 10, 2020, 11:55:01 PM
The problem for us men with dyeing hair is that as you get older is it usually doesn't match your ageing skin tone, and so creates an unnatural look, especially with the colours James and John are using. If affects women, too, although generally to a lesser extent which means they can get away with it for much longer.

Kirk Hammett's got it worked out.

Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 11, 2020, 03:43:36 AM
Quote from: nobloodyname on December 10, 2020, 11:55:01 PM
Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
I always wondered why metal dudes don't just ask their wives for style tips, but maybe he did and Mrs. 'trucci said "well whenever I don't have the time to get a blowout at the hairdresser's, I just go through it with a straightener" and he was like, straightener, got it, that will work for me too. And then did it every day on tour for a while :rollin

For me, the Octavarium look was literally just "we rolled out of bed to pick up some groceries and stopped by the photoshoot", but I'm guessing that's because mid 2000's cuts and textiles were peak casual. I tend to like most of their promo pics since 2011 because I like interesting leather jackets and they have a bunch. I just... don't get the Ed Hardy looking tees with the "ROCK SKULL FLAME BIKE" on them on stage. They could always wear band shirts of bands they love if they don't want a plain black, that's cool. Idk why plain black isn't an option either, John Myung looks great.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 11, 2020, 03:49:02 AM
I also wonder how much the looks are really a factor... I mean, DT isn't exactly a boy band, the kind of people that listen to 11 minutes long songs are not exactly looking for a good "tough kickass" image to begin with.

James Hetfield has short hair, Lars is pratically bald, Kirk Hammet is grey, I don't see their popularity waning or new kids refusing to listening to them because "they're old". And image is definitively more important for Metallica than Dream Theater.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 11, 2020, 03:57:07 AM
It's not that important. It was important in the 90's, back then you could get people booing you for "not looking metal", happened to Metallica when they cut their hair. Now it really doesn't matter, except to us who look at them a lot and want them to look more interesting :rollin

Actually, you know what. You know where the illusion falls apart? They all have some personality to their stage looks, starting from JP and the beard, JLB's rings and bracelets, MM's jersey and JMX's standard uniform. EXCEPT for JR, who we know isn't a metal guy at all and is quite zany and cooky, but he wears the same freaking Ed Hardy shirt as the rest of them.

Petition for Jordan to show up in a purple tunic and sandals to go with his wizard hat next time.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on December 11, 2020, 04:11:34 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 11, 2020, 03:43:36 AM
Quote from: nobloodyname on December 10, 2020, 11:55:01 PM
Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
I always wondered why metal dudes don't just ask their wives for style tips, but maybe he did and Mrs. 'trucci said "well whenever I don't have the time to get a blowout at the hairdresser's, I just go through it with a straightener" and he was like, straightener, got it, that will work for me too. And then did it every day on tour for a while :rollin


Laughed out loud, that's brilliant :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on December 11, 2020, 06:23:13 AM
I thought DT looked their coolest on the Chaos on Motion/Progressive Nation tour. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on December 11, 2020, 06:47:06 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on December 11, 2020, 03:57:07 AM
It's not that important. It was important in the 90's, back then you could get people booing you for "not looking metal", happened to Metallica when they cut their hair. Now it really doesn't matter, except to us who look at them a lot and want them to look more interesting :rollin

Actually, you know what. You know where the illusion falls apart? They all have some personality to their stage looks, starting from JP and the beard, JLB's rings and bracelets, MM's jersey and JMX's standard uniform. EXCEPT for JR, who we know isn't a metal guy at all and is quite zany and cooky, but he wears the same freaking Ed Hardy shirt as the rest of them.

Petition for Jordan to show up in a purple tunic and sandals to go with his wizard hat next time.

HAHA, you're on fire!   :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on December 23, 2020, 01:34:01 PM
Just an observation.  JLB seems to be going for a darker vibe these days, the dark hair, lots of bracelets and rings, skulls on his shirts, and a lot ink.   
While watching Distant memories the other night, my friend asked "is that JLB's evil twin brother"?  She still loved his performance though. We watched Score about a week earlier so you can see the contrast.   :lol

Labrie still rocks btw!  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on December 23, 2020, 02:58:31 PM
Yeah, I think he's kinda overdoing it but in the end it's just looks. I can't believe that he, as an adult man with nothing to prove, would feel miserable going through that because "that's the look that sells, gotta go for it, damn", if he does it, he must enjoy it and feel comfortable doing that, so kudos to him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on December 23, 2020, 03:41:26 PM
The guy is a chaos agent. Walks into the tattoo shop at fifty fucking five years old and gets a sleeve right away featuring, amongst other things, an image of himself as a pirate, because he's so amused how it caught on that Jordan calls him that. Absolute nutcase. Love that for him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: sam1oq on February 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
WDADU is a great album with good production for its time. It's also much more consistent than almost any of their post-ToT albums (and FII).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 23, 2021, 05:29:40 AM
Quote from: sam1oq on February 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
WDADU is a great album with good production for its time. It's also much more consistent than almost any of their post-ToT albums (and FII).

I agree completely. I rank it Top 5 for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 23, 2021, 10:02:15 AM
Quote from: sam1oq on February 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
WDADU is a great album with good production for its time. It's also much more consistent than almost any of their post-ToT albums (and FII).

I wouldn't go as far as to say "great album," but I otherwise agree.  In particular, I have no real issues with the production, and it's probably the best DT album in terms of the bass production.  Had Labrie been on it, my view would change greatly.  Compare the Live at the Marquee version of TKH with the album version.  The former is about 20x better because of the vocals.  I typically rank WDADU ahead of FII, SC, BC&SL and TA.  Not quite sure where it falls relative to DOT, but the high points of ADTOE and DT12 elevate those albums above WDADU in my rankings.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on February 23, 2021, 12:24:07 PM
Quote from: Architeuthis on December 23, 2020, 01:34:01 PM
Just an observation.  JLB seems to be going for a darker vibe these days, the dark hair, lots of bracelets and rings, skulls on his shirts, and a lot ink.   
While watching Distant memories the other night, my friend asked "is that JLB's evil twin brother"?  She still loved his performance though. We watched Score about a week earlier so you can see the contrast.   :lol

Labrie still rocks btw!  :metal

It's Terran James LaBrie.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kirksnosehair on February 23, 2021, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 23, 2021, 05:29:40 AM
Quote from: sam1oq on February 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
WDADU is a great album with good production for its time. It's also much more consistent than almost any of their post-ToT albums (and FII).

I agree completely. I rank it Top 5 for me.


Musically it's fabulous but I just can't get into Charlie's vocals.  Oddly enough, though, I LOVE his vocals on his solo albums, but I think his voice improved a LOT with age, which is the opposite of what happens to most vocalists as they age.


The live album "When Dream and Day Reunite" with LaBrie on vocals is a better-sounding take on those songs.  They sound a little weird with James but I think he improves the songs quite a bit.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 23, 2021, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: kirksnosehair on February 23, 2021, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 23, 2021, 05:29:40 AM
Quote from: sam1oq on February 23, 2021, 05:05:59 AM
WDADU is a great album with good production for its time. It's also much more consistent than almost any of their post-ToT albums (and FII).

I agree completely. I rank it Top 5 for me.


Musically it's fabulous but I just can't get into Charlie's vocals.  Oddly enough, though, I LOVE his vocals on his solo albums, but I think his voice improved a LOT with age, which is the opposite of what happens to most vocalists as they age.


The live album "When Dream and Day Reunite" with LaBrie on vocals is a better-sounding take on those songs.  They sound a little weird with James but I think he improves the songs quite a bit.



So when I do a DT album ranking, I always list WDADRu. So I agree with you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on February 23, 2021, 07:23:50 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on February 23, 2021, 12:24:07 PM
It's Terran James LaBrie.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/017/204/CaptainAmerica1_zps8c295f96.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Metaldude on May 13, 2021, 10:02:34 PM
These will be fighting words fer sure - Octavarium is kinda meh.
I don't mind the opening sequence but the rest is, well meh. Maybe I am not sophisticated enough to get it.
BITS is my fav DT song, but I often wonder if
"Sun, come shine my way
May healing waters bury all my pain"
would be better rendered thus-
"Sun, come shine my way,
May healing sunshine melt away my pain"
Or...
"Sun, come shine my way,
May healing waters wash away my pain..."
I think they can be shifted around vocally to fit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 13, 2021, 10:06:13 PM
Your favorites will probably change many times. It took several listens for me to get and love Octavarium. Now its my no. 1. Some songs take a While to get. Take your time  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Herrick on May 13, 2021, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 13, 2021, 10:06:13 PM
Your favorites will probably change many times. It took several listens for me to get and love Octavarium. Now its my no. 1. Some songs take a While to get. Take your time  :biggrin:

I never liked the album or the title track back when it came out. Now I love the title track but not the album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 14, 2021, 12:12:57 AM
Quote from: Herrick on May 13, 2021, 10:15:25 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 13, 2021, 10:06:13 PM
Your favorites will probably change many times. It took several listens for me to get and love Octavarium. Now its my no. 1. Some songs take a While to get. Take your time  :biggrin:

I never liked the album or the title track back when it came out. Now I love the title track but not the album.
I agree. RoaE, SS are top songs as well, but the rest is a bit meh. Still DT though..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on May 14, 2021, 12:24:09 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 13, 2021, 10:06:13 PM
Your favorites will probably change many times. It took several listens for me to get and love Octavarium. Now its my no. 1. Some songs take a While to get. Take your time  :biggrin:

and take the time  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on May 14, 2021, 08:59:04 AM
I don't care for TALW, and I can take or leave IWBY.  The rest of the album is fantastic.  It's really cool that we have great live versions of almost the entire album (I'm guessing we won't ever get Never Enough with MP out of the band, unless it shows up on a Lost Not Forgotten release). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 14, 2021, 10:39:19 AM
I'd take the title track, SS and TW as the best tracks on the album. TROA and PA are very good too, but I don't really care about the other 3.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: fortuneinlies8903 on May 14, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
-WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums
-Dominici is underrated (at least, in the studio...)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 14, 2021, 11:54:39 AM
Quote from: fortuneinlies8903 on May 14, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
-WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums
No argument from me on that - I love WDaDU!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 14, 2021, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: fortuneinlies8903 on May 14, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
-WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums
-Dominici is underrated (at least, in the studio...)

Eh.  not for me...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 14, 2021, 12:03:45 PM
Quote from: Metaldude on May 13, 2021, 10:02:34 PM
These will be fighting words fer sure - Octavarium is kinda meh.
I don't mind the opening sequence but the rest is, well meh. Maybe I am not sophisticated enough to get it.

For me, Octavarium can be broken down as follows:

0:00-3:48 - Complete waste of time
3:49-5:15 - Cool intro.  A flute solo?  That's cool.
5:16-7:58 - Kinda snoozy but not bad
7:58-8:46 - Nice chorus
8:46-12:16 - Second verse...a bit better than the first.  Nice build.
12:16-18:28 - NOW YOU"RE TALKING!!!  The instrumental sections leading into and out of the Full Circle section are epic, and I really dig Full Circle.
18:28-19:55 - Sometimes I overlook the Intervals section, but it's REALLY good.
18:56-end - Ok...NOW I can breathe.  There's a LOT happening here, but basically this 5+ minute section is the outro of the song, and it's a great way to close it out.

Overall, I love it, but I typically skip the Continuum/steel guitar intro and sometimes will skip the whole first half (if I'm pressed for time).


Quote from: bosk1 on May 14, 2021, 08:59:04 AM
I don't care for TALW, and I can take or leave IWBY.  The rest of the album is fantastic.  It's really cool that we have great live versions of almost the entire album (I'm guessing we won't ever get Never Enough with MP out of the band, unless it shows up on a Lost Not Forgotten release). 

I've never been too much of a fan of TROAE.  A lot of sameness with TGP and TDS (another one like this?!  be careful what you ask for).  I like TALW.  These Walls is just ok, and I do NOT like IWBY.  This is where the "each song in a different key" thing hurt them.  It always seems like James is having to struggle too much on the chorus.  LOVE Panic Attack.  Don't like Never Enough (and HATE the lyrics).  ITNOG Pt. II is cool, and 8VM...see above.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 12:48:09 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 14, 2021, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: fortuneinlies8903 on May 14, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
-WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums
-Dominici is underrated (at least, in the studio...)

Eh.  not for me...

geeeemo, I'm with you on that one.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 14, 2021, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: Stadler on May 14, 2021, 12:48:09 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 14, 2021, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: fortuneinlies8903 on May 14, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
-WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums
-Dominici is underrated (at least, in the studio...)

Eh.  not for me...

geeeemo, I'm with you on that one.


I really have tried. It just feels so "not smooth" or too choppy. There are some great parts, great guitar, but it feels a tad not right. I feel like DT evolved from here to Scenes, where they finally settled in - each album moving toward a better mix of prog and metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 14, 2021, 04:50:27 PM
I do feel like WDaDU has more to offer than its often-dismissed status would say about it, because there is a spontaneous, exciting creative energy to much of the album. Smoothly written or not, songs like A Fortune in Lies and Light Fuse and Get Away are pretty exhilirating imo. It's also easily one of the band's most metallic albums, which probably would've come across more witha production job that didn't sound like a demo. In a way, the occasional jankiness also feels like part of its charm as a debut from a young and ambitious band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on May 15, 2021, 08:17:37 AM
WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums














until FII or Scenes was released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM
On its own, WDaDU is a fine album. Had it been released in ‘84-86 I think it would have found an audience, but even for 1989 a lot of it sounds dated with a few sprinkles, here and there, of the greatness to come.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2021, 02:03:57 PM
It's very hard to get past the production and mix of the studio album. The songs themselves are fine and actually have a quite a lot of energy, you can sense that energy of a young band. But that energy is sucked up and the album doesn't represent that well at all. If it had a more punchier mix, and production, that could reveal that energy that the album is lacking as is.

These songs show themselves live, And you'll hear that energy when listening to these songs played during their early years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on May 16, 2021, 03:37:33 PM
When it comes to long epics, I tend to find myself listening to ITPOE more often than ACOS.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 03:56:09 PM
Quote from: RMGadelha on May 16, 2021, 03:37:33 PM
When it comes to long epics, I tend to find myself listening to ITPOE more often than ACOS.

I've said it before but i find ACOS to be their worst Epic/Multi-Part Song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on December 10, 2020, 03:06:12 PM
I always liked their Octavarium look, the perfect balance between being badass rockers, and adult men going well into their 40s.

(https://rockciclopedia.com/wiki/images/2/2d/Dream_Theater_2005.jpg)

We deffo need this Petrucci back. Growing massive bushy beards is a trend and i'm sure in a few years JP will go back to the goatee.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
My thought for the day :


Images and Words already sounded dated 13 years later in 2005 when Octavarium came out.

Now it's 16 years since Octavarium and it still sounds fresh.

My opinion of course. I&W has that super clean early 90s sound and that horrible snare sound whilst Octavarium still sounds modern and punhcy and yet with clarity and headroom.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 16, 2021, 04:14:04 PM
Quote from: RMGadelha on May 16, 2021, 03:37:33 PM
When it comes to long epics, I tend to find myself listening to ITPOE more often than ACOS.
This for me also. Especially the Chaos in Motion version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
My thought for the day :


Images and Words already sounded dated 13 years later in 2005 when Octavarium came out.


Images and Words sounded dated in 1992
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 16, 2021, 07:46:07 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM
On its own, WDaDU is a fine album. Had it been released in ‘84-86 I think it would have found an audience, but even for 1989 a lot of it sounds dated with a few sprinkles, here and there, of the greatness to come.
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2021, 02:03:57 PM
It's very hard to get past the production and mix of the studio album. The songs themselves are fine and actually have a quite a lot of energy, you can sense that energy of a young band. But that energy is sucked up and the album doesn't represent that well at all. If it had a more punchier mix, and production, that could reveal that energy that the album is lacking as is.

These songs show themselves live, And you'll hear that energy when listening to these songs played during their early years.
The thing is, you guys are looking at WDaDU after the fact. Had you been there when there was no other DT albums to compare it to, likely your opinion would be different. That certainly is the case for me. Not saying that it sounds perfect by any stretch, but I'm pretty sure you would view it differently even now.
 
 
Quote from: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
My thought for the day :


Images and Words already sounded dated 13 years later in 2005 when Octavarium came out.
Images and Words sounded dated in 1992
Did you pick it up in 1992?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 16, 2021, 07:50:45 PM
Saying something sounds dated is the most baseless criticism ever.  Most music sounds dated in the sense that it sounds of its time.  The Beatles music totally sounds like it's from the 60's, thus it sounds dated as well. 

Besides, even if you do not the triggered drums and/or some of the songs, Images and Words sounds awesome.  You can hear everything clearly, and the melodies literally leap out of the speakers at you.  Most bands who have done all or most of their studio work since the 90's would be so lucky for any of their albums to sound that good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 16, 2021, 07:57:14 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 16, 2021, 07:46:07 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 15, 2021, 12:31:42 PM
On its own, WDaDU is a fine album. Had it been released in ‘84-86 I think it would have found an audience, but even for 1989 a lot of it sounds dated with a few sprinkles, here and there, of the greatness to come.
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 15, 2021, 02:03:57 PM
It's very hard to get past the production and mix of the studio album. The songs themselves are fine and actually have a quite a lot of energy, you can sense that energy of a young band. But that energy is sucked up and the album doesn't represent that well at all. If it had a more punchier mix, and production, that could reveal that energy that the album is lacking as is.

These songs show themselves live, And you'll hear that energy when listening to these songs played during their early years.
The thing is, you guys are looking at WDaDU after the fact. Had you been there when there was no other DT albums to compare it to, likely your opinion would be different. That certainly is the case for me. Not saying that it sounds perfect by any stretch, but I'm pretty sure you would view it differently even now.
 
 
Quote from: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 04:44:34 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 16, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
My thought for the day :


Images and Words already sounded dated 13 years later in 2005 when Octavarium came out.
Images and Words sounded dated in 1992
Did you pick it up in 1992?

These songs and their youthful energy are exposed more in the Live shows from that same era, more so than how the album represents that youthful energy of those songs. But that charm of the album is why I also enjoy the album. The production, mix, and especially Charlies vocals, all add to that charm of WDADU.

I actually prefer the studio version of Light Fuse and Get Away, and TOWHTSTS, because of Dominicis vocals.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 16, 2021, 07:50:45 PM
Saying something sounds dated is the most baseless criticism ever.  Most music sounds dated in the sense that it sounds of its time.  The Beatles music totally sounds like it's from the 60's, thus it sounds dated as well. 

Besides, even if you do not the triggered drums and/or some of the songs, Images and Words sounds awesome.  You can hear everything clearly, and the melodies literally leap out of the speakers at you.  Most bands who have done all or most of their studio work since the 90's would be so lucky for any of their albums to sound that good.

Gonna agree to disagree on that one. Some of the latter Beatles records sound 10 years ahead of their  time and were revolutionary both musically and production wise- the fact that Tomorrow Never Knows is from 1966 still blows the mind.

Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don’t get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it’s production is not one of them.

Totally my (probably controversial) opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 17, 2021, 12:42:57 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 09:47:40 PM
Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don’t get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it’s production is not one of them.
...and you felt this way in 1992 when it was released?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 17, 2021, 08:50:08 AM
I never understood the hate for the triggered run sound of I&w. Countless albums use triggered bass and drums in post production. Rick beato did a fantastic video on this a while back. It's of it's time but so is the whole images album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 17, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on May 17, 2021, 11:18:29 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 17, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.

Yeah, I'm with you (and ReaperKK).  I've been listening to and enjoying I&W from 1992, and I loved it because of James and Mike.  The "triggered" drums never once ever been an issue. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 17, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
I think the problem is less the sound (though perhaps part of what gives it that dated character) and more that there are no ghost notes whatsoever and due to that, it lacks a kind of organic quality many of the othe albums have. I mean, hell, even many triggered/electronic kits bother to occasionally add ghost notes to the mix nowadays (such as Tesseract's Altered State). When I re-listened to I&W recently, shortly after listening to some of the Metropolis 2000 bonus material, the difference is pretty striking. One sounds distinctly... sonically manufactured to a sterile degree, almost like MIDI tracks, for the lack of a better description, while the other sounds like the band actually playing the material and it has a visceral impact.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 17, 2021, 11:41:26 AM
IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on May 17, 2021, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: Stadler on May 17, 2021, 11:18:29 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 17, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.

Yeah, I'm with you (and ReaperKK).  I've been listening to and enjoying I&W from 1992, and I loved it because of James and Mike.  The "triggered" drums never once ever been an issue.

Count me in as someone who experienced the ablum in real time, LOVED the production (which, was very much of it's time and did not, in my opinion, sound dated), and who STILL loves the way the album sounds.

The three remixes have their charm, but I honestly wouldn't want to hear Images any other way.

Also, FWIW, I suspect that many music fans have no idea how many modern rock/metal albums feature 'triggered' drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 17, 2021, 12:33:13 PM
I like the Greatest Hit remix of PMU because you can hear the bass a bit better.  I've never really noticed a difference with the drums.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 17, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: Enigmachine on May 17, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
I think the problem is less the sound (though perhaps part of what gives it that dated character) and more that there are no ghost notes whatsoever and due to that, it lacks a kind of organic quality many of the othe albums have. I mean, hell, even many triggered/electronic kits bother to occasionally add ghost notes to the mix nowadays (such as Tesseract's Altered State). When I re-listened to I&W recently, shortly after listening to some of the Metropolis 2000 bonus material, the difference is pretty striking. One sounds distinctly... sonically manufactured to a sterile degree, almost like MIDI tracks, for the lack of a better description, while the other sounds like the band actually playing the material and it has a visceral impact.

Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 17, 2021, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: DTA on May 17, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

Okay, I think I misspoke when I said "ghost notes", because I did indeed forget about the beginning of Learning to Live (I might've caught some in Take the Time too when I listened today, but I could be wrong). What I mean is more, you know when he does those rapid snare fills in Metropolis? When there are so many snare hits in a row, you notice how all the samples for the big snare hit are exactly the same. If I remember correctly, he does a similar sort of fill in the beginning of You Not Me and the difference is pretty astounding. It instantly just sounds much more real, while the Metropolis fills almost have the feeling of a drum machine glitching out. Like, even a hit that I'm pretty sure is supposed to be anticipatory sounds out at exactly the same velocity as all the others. The natural variation in force, not just velocity, of all those kinds of fills are just completely flattened out and that definitely catches the ear for a listener who isn't used to hearing that. Even when a lightly tapped hit and a forceful one are edited to be the same volume, there's still a clear difference in which one sounds more intense and that kind of potential depth of timbre is just entirely thrown out with this kind of decision (which also applies to the kick as well).

I have a feeling that this would be fine if MP knew and approved of this sampled approach beforehand so that he could adapt his actual parts to suit that fact, but instead Prater fit a square peg in a circular hole and went forward with that without the band's consent. I think the production of Images and Words is probably one of the more stark examples of labels/producers not really getting the band and flattening the dynamics and sonics of a drum performance (which may very well work for a slick AOR album with fairly streamlined rhythmic parts) is absolutely symptomatic of that misunderstanding in my view.

Even EZDrummer automatically alternates samples to get a more organic sound and when you turn that off, you get something closer to what we get in Images. I don't have a problem with triggered drums as a whole and there are many examples of it being used to great effect. The problem is the total lack of variation in timbre for all the primary snare hits, which often makes it hard (for me, at least) to imagine MP actually playing it, when I can easily do that for something like Six Degrees or Scenes. I do also agree that the remixed version sounds significantly worse because for all my gripes with the original, at least it all forms a coherent aesthetic and I can still kinda take it for what it is. I think, going into the mindset of not expecting an authentic drum sound, Images still sounds very pristine. I still very much enjoy the album but it just has this area where I feel like it could've been improved.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TM172003 on May 17, 2021, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: DTA on May 17, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

You haven’t listened to DoT?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on May 17, 2021, 02:47:42 PM
I don't like the I&W drum sound.
But I really don't care.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 17, 2021, 03:42:38 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 17, 2021, 12:42:57 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 16, 2021, 09:47:40 PM
Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don’t get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it’s production is not one of them.
...and you felt this way in 1992 when it was released?

I probably heard it first in 1996. I do remember being surprised it was from '92 though and not earlier. I loved the music and because I actually like that 80s sound I didn't (and still dont) have a big problem with it. When I say it sounds dated even 1992 standards, I'm coming from the standpoint that when I listen to I&W, I dont "hear" early 90's production. Queensryche's Empire sounds like early 90's, Fates Warning's Parallels sounds like early 90's. Images & Words sounds like a REALLY talented, revolutionary band being produced by a guy who still REALLY digs hair metal, which is pretty much exactly what it is lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PetFish on May 17, 2021, 06:41:00 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 15, 2021, 08:17:37 AM
WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums














until FII or Scenes was released.

r/showerthoughts
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 17, 2021, 08:52:39 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 17, 2021, 11:41:26 AM
IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong :lol

No, no, the remixes sounds way worse, as they had that kind of dry sound that infected some of their other work in the 00's (see: a lot of Octavarium).  There is no punch, not much pop, in those remixes.  I hate when bands put alternate versions of big hits on greatest hits records, and considering Pull Me Under was their obvious biggest hit, to change it like that just felt wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 09:27:53 PM
Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on May 17, 2021, 09:34:36 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 09:27:53 PM
Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

This.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 17, 2021, 09:44:11 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on May 17, 2021, 08:52:39 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 17, 2021, 11:41:26 AM
IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong :lol

No, no, the remixes sounds way worse, as they had that kind of dry sound that infected some of their other work in the 00's (see: a lot of Octavarium).  There is no punch, not much pop, in those remixes.  I hate when bands put alternate versions of big hits on greatest hits records, and considering Pull Me Under was their obvious biggest hit, to change it like that just felt wrong.

They sound like 00's DT basically because they were done by Kevin Shirley, who also mixed most of SFAM, SDOIT, TOT, and a few of their live albums in the 00's (obiously FII too, but that's another era). I think that's the specific sound they wanted for the remixes. Still, like I said in my other post, it just doesn't feel right.
As for the bolded, I completely agree, I just don't like alternate versions of songs I already know :lol

Quote from: Dedalus on May 17, 2021, 09:34:36 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 09:27:53 PM
Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

This.

I think it's ok for what it is: a compilation album aimed mostly to new(er) fans. However, if you were already a big fan of the band, there's not much stuff to get into. They totally missed the opportunity to write a couple extra songs to include in there as some bands doto help sell compilation albums better, though IIRC, this was released very close to SC, hence why there wasn't new material there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 09:52:57 PM
Greatest Hit was a mistake.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 17, 2021, 10:01:33 PM
I thought it was okay- it tried to appeal to both new fans with the hits and included some “rare” stuff for the fans. The band had been around for almost 20 years by that point and hadn’t put out a greatest hits compilation and by 2008 it was probably the last time it would have made sense to do so with the changing record industry and dwindling physical sales. Greatest Hits have always been a cash grab so I hope the band made a little dough with their back catalog. I certainly don’t think it hurt them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 10:18:47 PM
To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 17, 2021, 11:00:25 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 17, 2021, 10:01:33 PM
I thought it was okay- it tried to appeal to both new fans with the hits and included some “rare” stuff for the fans. The band had been around for almost 20 years by that point and hadn’t put out a greatest hits compilation and by 2008 it was probably the last time it would have made sense to do so with the changing record industry and dwindling physical sales. Greatest Hits have always been a cash grab so I hope the band made a little dough with their back catalog. I certainly don’t think it hurt them.
Exactly. I can't remember for certain, but being that they were moving to Roadrunner at that time, I think Atlantic was already planning on putting together a compilation of some sort anyway, with or without the band's approval, because they could. So if it was inevitably going to happen, I'd rather have MP involved than not, because he would have had a much better handle on what tracks would most likely appeal to new listeners, as well as to throw in some (relative) rarities to satisfy the diehards.
 
 
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 10:18:47 PM
My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks
Don't forget there was always a method to MP's madness. To go into detail:
1) I believe MP regretted not including PA in hindsight - can't remember, but I believe PA appeared in Rock Band after GH+21 was released, and so why it wasn't included. Metropolis probably wasn't included because in general a compilation is to appeal to people who are new to the band, and considering that PMU, TtT and AD were all singles from IaW, it make sense they would be included and Metropolis not. It could be argued that LtL could have been selected too, since it's a fan favorite.
2) This was done in part to provide something "new" to the established fan base. And since MP opted to keep the 2 sides of the band separate, it also helped with him being able to include more tracks.
3) You and many others may not like them, but that's not necessarily true for everyone. Obviously, a big part of this was because MP hated the triggered drums that Prater used. But instead of just swapping the drums, he decided to have the full tracks remixed so as to (once again) give the fans something new rather than the same old, same old.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 11:19:57 PM
I cannot say for certain, I'd have to do some exploring in to various "Greatest Hits" sets, but I feel those that try to appeal to both the hardcore fan base and the potential new fan will actually fail at greatly pleasing either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 17, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 11:19:57 PM
I cannot say for certain, I'd have to do some exploring in to various "Greatest Hits" sets, but I feel those that try to appeal to both the hardcore fan base and the potential new fan will actually fail at greatly pleasing either.
Given the kind of audience DT attracts, a compilation is gonna fail to gain much of a new audience for the band anyway. So the best thing that they could do is include some "exclusive" content to make it worthwhile for the established fan base to want to pick it up.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on May 18, 2021, 12:56:50 AM
Images and Words is magic music and the production helps sell that
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 18, 2021, 03:07:02 AM
I wonder, did the compilation even really have any significant success for the band? I tend to concur with Setlist Scotty in that, rather than what it could be for many other bands, a compilation is actually going to be a pretty niche thing rather than a pull for people unfamiliar with them. I can't imagine it's aged well either, as modern streaming platforms basically make compilations like this mostly obsolete. The edits are pretty interesting though, those sorts of rarities are something they probably should've gone after more with maybe things like throwing on the stuff from Cleaning Out the Closet.

I also have to admit that my thoughts on I&W's production choices really depend on what kind of mindset I take towards it. If I see it as a charming nostalgic product of a time gone by, a lot of things I may have seen as flaws suddenly fit the aesthetic. That kind of polished, dreamy 80s / early 90s atmosphere it creates does give it a very unique quality in the band's discography and perhaps there's an argument to be made that more natural drum processing would detract from that, in a way. I'm saying this because in spite of what I said earlier, there's definitely something that keeps me coming back for more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 18, 2021, 06:16:01 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 09:27:53 PM
Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

I didn't hear until a while after it was released.  I never bought it, a friend had downloaded it and sent it to me, IIRC.  If not, I doubt I would have ever heard it until all of the songs made it on to YT. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 18, 2021, 06:32:22 AM
I'm not against the Greatest Hit compilation in general, but although the triggered snares on Images & Words aren't perfect, they are much better than what appears on the remixed versions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 18, 2021, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on May 17, 2021, 09:27:53 PM
Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

I'd never in a million years have bought it, but I did buy/download the remixed versions of PMU and TTT.  I heard a 30-second snippet of PMU and liked that the bass was more audible.  I can't notice much of a difference otherwise, and I never noticed much difference between the album and remixed versions of TTT.  I'm not a big fan of Another Day, so I didn't bother with that one.  Edited versions of other songs held no appeal for me.


Quote from: Enigmachine on May 18, 2021, 03:07:02 AM
I wonder, did the compilation even really have any significant success for the band?

I doubt it.  According to Wikipedia, it hit #122 on the Billboard 200, #113 on the UK albums chart, #28 in Japan, and #27 in Italy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 18, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 10:18:47 PM
To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Pannick Attack is a popular DT song? Had no idea (I’ve always hated it). Lifting Shadows is a top 10 DT song for me, and I Walk Beside You is the last DT song I really like.

I bought this recently and actually enjoyed a lot of the radio edits. Home especially. The I&W remixes do not sound all that great though (it’s not just the drum sound either, they lack energy altogether and sound kind of hollow).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 18, 2021, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: HOF on May 18, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 10:18:47 PM
To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Panic Attack is a popular DT song?


Panic Attack was in Rock Band 2 back when rhythm games were at the peak of their popularity. The song introduced a lot of people to Dream Theater, including me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TM172003 on May 18, 2021, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: HOF on May 18, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Pannick Attack is a popular DT song?

Yes, it’s DT’s second most popular song on Spotify with 23m listens.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 18, 2021, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 18, 2021, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: HOF on May 18, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 17, 2021, 10:18:47 PM
To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Panic Attack is a popular DT song?


Panic Attack was in Rock Band 2 back when rhythm games were at the peak of their popularity. The song introduced a lot of people to Dream Theater, including me.

Huh. But it looks like Rock Band 2 was released several months after Greatest Hit, so I guess they couldn’t have known at that point.

Quote from: TM172003 on May 18, 2021, 09:46:02 AM

Quote from: HOF on May 18, 2021, 09:30:36 AM
Pannick Attack is a popular DT song?

Yes, it’s DT’s second most popular song on Spotify with 23m listens.

Amazing! Well I guess my controversial DT opinion is that it’s an ear-bleed inducing mess ripping off an even more ear-bleed inducing band (Muse)! 😜
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 18, 2021, 10:13:52 AM
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2021, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 18, 2021, 10:13:52 AM
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.
Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on May 18, 2021, 03:23:17 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2021, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on May 18, 2021, 10:13:52 AM
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.
Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
Nope!  It was glorious!!! One of the things that I loved about DT from the beginning, were how long the songs were. So, it was like yes!!! ..and let me hit the repeat button!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: CDrice on May 18, 2021, 05:19:23 PM
The Greatest Hits was also important for me as it was my first real exposure to the band. The reason I went with it is because the guitar teacher I had a few years before taught me some parts of Pull me Under, Ytse Jam and Peruvian Skies. At the time I was more into pop punk. So so while I thought it was cool music I didn't dig further.

Years later I was looking to expand my music tastes as what I listened to didn't satisfied me anymore and since I had heard of Dream Theater from that teacher and a few people in college I grabbed the greatest hits since it had two of the three songs I had learned and I could therefore try and play along them. I mostly cared about the dark side disk, but wow did it blew me away. And then Black Clouds and Silver Linings got released some time later and that cemented my love for the band.

Quote from: geeeemo on May 18, 2021, 03:23:17 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on May 18, 2021, 03:06:37 PM
Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
Nope!  It was glorious!!! One of the things that I loved about DT from the beginning, were how long the songs were. So, it was like yes!!! ..and let me hit the repeat button!!

To me it was. It felt jarring at first to hear Misunderstood and Home had all those other parts that I didn't know. It took some time to adjust. But now it's really jarring to listen to the edits  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on May 17, 2021, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: DTA on May 17, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

Okay, I think I misspoke when I said "ghost notes", because I did indeed forget about the beginning of Learning to Live (I might've caught some in Take the Time too when I listened today, but I could be wrong). What I mean is more, you know when he does those rapid snare fills in Metropolis? When there are so many snare hits in a row, you notice how all the samples for the big snare hit are exactly the same. If I remember correctly, he does a similar sort of fill in the beginning of You Not Me and the difference is pretty astounding. It instantly just sounds much more real, while the Metropolis fills almost have the feeling of a drum machine glitching out. Like, even a hit that I'm pretty sure is supposed to be anticipatory sounds out at exactly the same velocity as all the others. The natural variation in force, not just velocity, of all those kinds of fills are just completely flattened out and that definitely catches the ear for a listener who isn't used to hearing that. Even when a lightly tapped hit and a forceful one are edited to be the same volume, there's still a clear difference in which one sounds more intense and that kind of potential depth of timbre is just entirely thrown out with this kind of decision (which also applies to the kick as well).

I have a feeling that this would be fine if MP knew and approved of this sampled approach beforehand so that he could adapt his actual parts to suit that fact, but instead Prater fit a square peg in a circular hole and went forward with that without the band's consent. I think the production of Images and Words is probably one of the more stark examples of labels/producers not really getting the band and flattening the dynamics and sonics of a drum performance (which may very well work for a slick AOR album with fairly streamlined rhythmic parts) is absolutely symptomatic of that misunderstanding in my view.

Even EZDrummer automatically alternates samples to get a more organic sound and when you turn that off, you get something closer to what we get in Images. I don't have a problem with triggered drums as a whole and there are many examples of it being used to great effect. The problem is the total lack of variation in timbre for all the primary snare hits, which often makes it hard (for me, at least) to imagine MP actually playing it, when I can easily do that for something like Six Degrees or Scenes. I do also agree that the remixed version sounds significantly worse because for all my gripes with the original, at least it all forms a coherent aesthetic and I can still kinda take it for what it is. I think, going into the mindset of not expecting an authentic drum sound, Images still sounds very pristine. I still very much enjoy the album but it just has this area where I feel like it could've been improved.

That's a fair assessment and I agree about the machine gun note snare fills sounding "off", but they fit the album's production style so they never bugged me. I imagine MP was a lot more annoyed since it happened to him without his knowledge, but still, I'd take that sound over the weak, flat sound of his snare on the remix. An Awake snare sound with the rest of I&W would really sound great. Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 19, 2021, 06:19:34 AM
I need to read lifting shadows again :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on May 19, 2021, 06:20:50 AM
Ah yes, David Prater :lol "Ungrateful little girly-man".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on May 19, 2021, 06:30:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

Damn, Prater is a savage.  :lol

Of course Portnoy would know the bass drums were triggered too as the actual trigger device itself would hook onto the bass drum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 19, 2021, 06:37:40 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on May 17, 2021, 08:50:08 AM
I never understood the hate for the triggered run sound of I&w. Countless albums use triggered bass and drums in post production. Rick beato did a fantastic video on this a while back. It's of it's time but so is the whole images album.

Apparently the drums on Hardwired to Self Destruct have samples buried in the mix. Greg Fidelman said that you can barely hear them but they do help the overall drum sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on May 19, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 19, 2021, 08:02:35 AM
In regards to the Prater vs MP thing, it's safe to say that MP has been kinda vindicated honestly. Even if many do like the sound of I&W, it's safe to say that people generally prefer the production on albums like FII and SDoIT as well as the Liquid Tension Experiment albums, the drum sound very much a part of that. The irony is that if Prater had been more accomodating and open minded about what the band wanted, walking the line between compromise and nudging the band in a viable direction, he might still be in demand nowadays but instead, he pretty much fell into irrelevance by making his name as an insufferable snob that is largely known for making DT's life hellish for a time. On the flip-side, albums like LTE3 and the last few Neal Morse albums, from what I know are praised for their crisp, dynamic drum sound with little to no disagreement on that front, while I&W's production choices are polarising to this day.

I'm also kind of baffled that Prater pointed out that the kick was triggered as if that's some kind of gotcha moment, given that the variation of timbre with a kick is generally going to be far less noticable than with a snare, so it's likely that MP just tolerated that side of things more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on May 19, 2021, 08:54:32 AM
I don't fuss with "sounds" as much as some do, but almost every one of my favorite drummers has at least one moment where I'm like "that sounds like ASS."    Neil Peart:   Grace Under Pressure (how you neuter one of the most powerful drummers in the history of rock like that; that should be a hate crime).    Phil Collins:  Genesis/Invisible Touch (I LOVE the "Phil Collins drum sound", frankly; I frequently put on Abacab JUST to hear the drums.  But that doesn't translate to Genesis or parts of Invisible Touch).  John Bonham:   In Through The Out Door (good, not great; it is a shade echo-ey and bouncy for me).   

I cannot say that about Mike Portnoy.  I don't think I've ever heard him and thought, "wow, Mike sounds like ASS."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on May 19, 2021, 08:59:47 AM
I agree with that, Stadler.  Portnoy has always gotten a great sound of his drums. Even on albums where the mix left a bit to be desired (some of the DT ones in the 00's, Neal's Sola Scriptura), his drums still always sounded great.  No clue if it is the way he mics them or whatever, but he obviously knows how to make them sound great on a studio album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on May 19, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on May 19, 2021, 08:02:35 AM
In regards to the Prater vs MP thing, it's safe to say that MP has been kinda vindicated honestly. Even if many do like the sound of I&W, it's safe to say that people generally prefer the production on albums like FII and SDoIT as well as the Liquid Tension Experiment albums, the drum sound very much a part of that.

It is?  "People generally prefer"?  Which people?  And how do you know what these "people generally prefer"?

I would submit that the "people" to whom you are referring are the VERY small number of people who are actually aware of the issue and have vocalized an opinion about it.  Even then, I don't think there's any consensus, and I'd further submit that many folks who have expressed an opinion on the issue would never have known about it if MP hadn't been so vocal about it.  In other words, I don't think it's safe to say any of those things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2021, 01:21:36 PM
I'm glad that JP solo wasn't changed cause it kicks ass!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 19, 2021, 02:02:43 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 19, 2021, 01:21:36 PM
I'm glad that JP solo wasn't changed cause it kicks ass!

Yeah, that’s one of my favorites from him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 19, 2021, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

That’s right about the snare. It’s all coming back to me now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on May 19, 2021, 02:14:35 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on May 19, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
It is?  "People generally prefer"?  Which people?  And how do you know what these "people generally prefer"?

I would submit that the "people" to whom you are referring are the VERY small number of people who are actually aware of the issue and have vocalized an opinion about it.  Even then, I don't think there's any consensus, and I'd further submit that many folks who have expressed an opinion on the issue would never have known about it if MP hadn't been so vocal about it.  In other words, I don't think it's safe to say any of those things.

I think it should've been implicit that I was discussing the part of the fandom that's active in these kinds of discussions. I've also heard people complain about the triggered snare/kick (in servers, on forums and even things like it getting lightheartedly mocked in YouTube comments and not always by people aware of the context like in a few Metal Archives and RYM reviews, with most mentions of the production as a whole seeming to be negative on the latter in particular) often without even knowing about MP taking issue with it and what I say is still true even if what you say about people only talking about it because they're aware of the issue, because it's proportional to those that have an opinion either way on it. Have I done a poll of everyone who's ever listened to these albums and asked them their opinion? Of course not, I'm making an educated guess on the slice of DT involved interactions that I've seen and I doubt they'd have a predisposition to swing either way. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong and if I'm making assumptions that aren't safe to accurately make then fine, but frankly I don't really care. I'm not going to debate the finer details of that kind of claim.

My point wasn't about that. Prater himself was the one who asserted to MP "You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure." which... is absolutely ludicrous. Even if there's no consensus, it proves what I'm trying to say in that Prater is being arrogant about assuming that MP is a failure without his supposed magic touch. If anyone's in a position to talk down to the other like that, it's certainly MP towards Prater, given that he is still in the limelight as one of the most well known drummers in that prog/metal sphere and questionable drum sound is hardly ever the first thing to come to the discussion with the non-Prater material with MP drumming and even if only due to MP bringing it up, it seems to be more likely to crop up around I&W (discounting WDaDU for sounding like a demo though). Meanwhile, I'm fairly comfortable in the claim that David Prater's career has taken a downward trajectory since his two pieces of work with the band. He still tags all the old bands he worked with in like half of his Facebook posts and his credits have dried up considerably. His latest work appears to be from Texas Hippie Coalition... which in my humble opinion doesn't sound particularly great. The only credits since then have been from older appearances, but recounted due to compilations. Compare him to Kevin Shirley's record for perspective, where he's still staying active each year. If I were Prater, I'd probably be reconsidering my approach of assuming that my way is the only way to go, given that kind of disparity (in relation to both Shirley and Portnoy himself).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on May 19, 2021, 02:58:50 PM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 06:30:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

Damn, Prater is a savage.  :lol

Of course Portnoy would know the bass drums were triggered too as the actual trigger device itself would hook onto the bass drum.

You don't always need to have an actual electronic trigger on the drum, you can do it in post.

Here is an interesting video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F916ioSWdts
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 20, 2021, 04:37:45 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on May 19, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.

I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 20, 2021, 04:39:24 AM
Quote from: Stadler on May 19, 2021, 08:54:32 AM
I don't fuss with "sounds" as much as some do, but almost every one of my favorite drummers has at least one moment where I'm like "that sounds like ASS."    Neil Peart:   Grace Under Pressure (how you neuter one of the most powerful drummers in the history of rock like that; that should be a hate crime).    Phil Collins:  Genesis/Invisible Touch (I LOVE the "Phil Collins drum sound", frankly; I frequently put on Abacab JUST to hear the drums.  But that doesn't translate to Genesis or parts of Invisible Touch).  John Bonham:   In Through The Out Door (good, not great; it is a shade echo-ey and bouncy for me).   

I cannot say that about Mike Portnoy.  I don't think I've ever heard him and thought, "wow, Mike sounds like ASS."

I'm not the biggest fan of the high pitched rim shots on Train of Thought. But they do make the snare cut through - with everyone being tuned so low.

+ I think it's funny that people pile on the St Anger snare sound when - as a drummer I watch a lot of drumming videos - and a LOT of r'n'b / hip hop / fusion drummers

have a very high pitched 'clangy' snare and nobody says anything.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: PixelDream on May 20, 2021, 08:41:35 AM
I definitely understand MP not being happy with that totally fake triggered snare on I&W.

That said, it gives the record an irresistable early 90's vibe. I love the glossy production for what it is, and especially in a song like Another Day it just works so well. The remixes on the Greatest Hit just feel wrong to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 20, 2021, 09:04:21 AM
The triggered snare makes Another Day. Add in the Saxophone and you have their ultimate 90's ballad. Another Day needs a high pitch snappy snare sound that pops.

MP may not have liked it, and could be due to prater not telling him and just doing it anyways. But it was the best decision made because it made that album have a distinct tone and style that just screams early 90's. That snare, I feel, is and was integral to the overall success of Images and Words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on May 20, 2021, 11:41:01 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 20, 2021, 04:37:45 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on May 19, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.

Ok. Whatever it is, it doesn't great to me. Would be improved be a better mix, i think.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 20, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
Quote from: DoctorAction on May 20, 2021, 11:41:01 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 20, 2021, 04:37:45 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on May 19, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.
Ok. Whatever it is, it doesn't great to me. Would be improved be a better mix, i think.

For what it’s worth, the only good drum sound Lars has ever had was on the Black Album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 21, 2021, 03:19:46 AM
Plus Load and Reload. Oh and Garage Inc disc 1. All the Bob Rock albums

except St Anger.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 04:18:04 AM
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 06:49:05 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on May 21, 2021, 03:19:46 AM
Plus Load and Reload. Oh and Garage Inc disc 1. All the Bob Rock albums

except St Anger.

I honestly don’t like the drum sound on the Load albums. The rest of the production sounds great but the drums have no life to them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 04:18:04 AM
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.


The entire sonic spectrum of WDADU is pure swamp ass.  So, the snare drum sounding like shit is just one of dozens of issues with the sound.  The entire album sounds like it was recorded with a mono cassette tape player.


No, the worst sounding snare drum in the entire Dream Theater catalog is on the song A Change of Seasons.  The live tracks on that album sound pretty good, but A Change of Seasons has that snare drum that sounds like there's a paper bag on it.  It really ruins the song for me. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 21, 2021, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 04:18:04 AM
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.


The entire sonic spectrum of WDADU is pure swamp ass.  So, the snare drum sounding like shit is just one of dozens of issues with the sound.  The entire album sounds like it was recorded with a mono cassette tape player.


No, the worst sounding snare drum in the entire Dream Theater catalog is on the song A Change of Seasons.  The live tracks on that album sound pretty good, but A Change of Seasons has that snare drum that sounds like there's a paper bag on it.  It really ruins the song for me.

I can’t argue with this either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater’s best recorded drum sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on May 21, 2021, 08:18:30 PM
FII is probably DT's best sounding album. Too bad they wasted it on an album that blows.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater’s best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 21, 2021, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater’s best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on May 22, 2021, 06:59:05 AM
Awake has that early 90s drum sound which is too clean and too much reverb.

The Therapy? album Nurse has a similar drum sound where it sounded like they were tracked in an empty swimming pool.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 22, 2021, 07:58:38 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on May 22, 2021, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 22, 2021, 07:58:38 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.

Yeah the production on ACoS is very cold which I guess fits the song as it’s a song about loss and pain, but it’s not particularly nice on the ears. I also never liked Derek’s keyboard patches so that doesn’t help matters and is a big reason why FII is my least favorite DT album despite it having the best production.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 22, 2021, 10:21:06 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 22, 2021, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 22, 2021, 07:58:38 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Quote from: DTA on May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I’ve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.

Yeah the production on ACoS is very cold which I guess fits the song as it’s a song about loss and pain, but it’s not particularly nice on the ears. I also never liked Derek’s keyboard patches so that doesn’t help matters and is a big reason why FII is my least favorite DT album despite it having the best production.

I like the overall sound on ACOS, but the drums do sound very thin which is jarring and makes it sound not quite right. Still, I think some of the heavier moments sound really good (like that part with the sort of siren sound before the big keyboard solo near the end).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hunnus2000 on May 22, 2021, 10:47:54 AM
When I found out that they went to an actual studio to record ACOS AND they had a producer I couldn't believe it . My first thought was that they should request a refund.

As far as DS's "keyboard patches", when I think of patches, I think of computers and DS is more of a keyboard purist so he's trying to get sounds out of whatever the keyboard comes with (which I guess are patches?). But JR's soundscape  takes advantage of computer patches which I think makes him a better fit for DT than DS did.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on May 22, 2021, 01:01:12 PM
Speaking of DS I think he did a great job with ACOS. He combined both the original material paying respects to KM but also brought his flavor in the mix.
Indeed he is a purist when playing and choosing his sounds but considering the time and the challenge he had at hand he did really good.

I think some of his highlights are the gritty hammond and synth sounds, some great pads and effects and also his solo in The Inevitable Summer is very memorable and well composed. There is a youtube video with only his keyboard stem which I think is worth checking out.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on May 22, 2021, 01:13:10 PM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on May 22, 2021, 01:01:12 PM
Speaking of DS I think he did a great job with ACOS. He combined both the original material paying respects to KM but also brought his flavor in the mix.
Indeed he is a purist when playing and choosing his sounds but considering the time and the challenge he had at hand he did really good.

I think some of his highlights are the gritty hammond and synth sounds, some great pads and effects and also his solo in The Inevitable Summer is very memorable and well composed. There is a youtube video with only his keyboard stem which I think is worth checking out.

Yeah, I really appreciate DS’s more organic keyboard approach. I think ACOS had a lot of texture to it as a result. I don’t think the production is all that bad, it’s just a little unusual. Overall I think it has a lot of light and shade that’s missing in DT from about TOT onward.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on May 22, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy’s playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I’m hoping that it has less to do with the “Portnoy factor” and more to do with JP’s improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 22, 2021, 11:52:22 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 22, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I’m hoping that it has less to do with the “Portnoy factor” and more to do with JP’s improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

It’s probably a little bit of both.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on May 24, 2021, 02:37:51 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 22, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy’s playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I’m hoping that it has less to do with the “Portnoy factor” and more to do with JP’s improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

I think the Mixer from Terminal Velocity is doing DT15?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on May 24, 2021, 03:12:27 PM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on May 24, 2021, 02:37:51 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on May 22, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy’s playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I’m hoping that it has less to do with the “Portnoy factor” and more to do with JP’s improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

I think the Mixer from Terminal Velocity is doing DT15?

Not officially confirmed (yet) but we're pretty sure he did :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on May 24, 2021, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 21, 2021, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater’s best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry.

Awake is probably the best snare sound I've ever heard. :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 24, 2021, 07:09:28 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 24, 2021, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: HOF on May 21, 2021, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on May 21, 2021, 08:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on May 21, 2021, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on May 21, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII.  :lol

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater’s best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry.

Awake is probably the best snare sound I've ever heard. :2metal:

Really?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on May 25, 2021, 12:38:21 AM
I also love the drum sound on Awake. That intro to 6:00 ...

To me, it's a great balance of sounding "produced" but still really alive. Awesome.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on May 25, 2021, 03:08:27 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on May 25, 2021, 12:38:21 AM
I also love the drum sound on Awake. That intro to 6:00 ...

To me, it's a great balance of sounding "produced" but still really alive. Awesome.

I think the drums as a whole are fine. But I don’t think the snare is the greatest I’ve ever heard. Opinions though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on May 25, 2021, 05:03:18 AM
 :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheLordOfTheStrings on May 25, 2021, 12:35:34 PM
Train of Thought hands down has DT's best snare sound. BC&SL is second imo. The Terminal Velocity snare reminds me of BC&SL quite a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Let's see.

For one, I think SDoIT was generally not too great of an album (especially considering the others around that time)
And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)

Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album, and it has some songs that I love quite a bit (Hollow Years, Trial of Tears)

Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

These Walls is one of the worst Dream Theater songs (But the rest of the songs on Octavarium keep the album at a high place anyway)

The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)

The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)

I don't know how many of these are even controversial (Especially the last one) but they're my opinions that I first think of.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 03, 2021, 03:47:21 AM
Amazing. Every word of what you said was wrong.

 :biggrin:

First of all, welcome to the forum, and secondly, obviously I'm kiddin', it's fun to see how different the opinions can differ among fans  :hat
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 04:06:10 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 03, 2021, 03:47:21 AM
Amazing. Every word of what you said was wrong.

 :biggrin:

First of all, welcome to the forum, and secondly, obviously I'm kiddin', it's fun to see how different the opinions can differ among fans  :hat

Lol thanks, I've seen some interesting opinions here so far.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Mladen on June 03, 2021, 04:13:21 AM
I agree that Systematic Chaos is fantastic. It's definitely in the top half of Dream Theater albums for me.  :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on June 03, 2021, 04:53:37 AM
I agree with your view on TA being worse than WDADU.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on June 03, 2021, 05:02:14 AM
I loved Octavarium when it came out but overall, the songs just seem weak in retrospect. These Walls would be a standout for me along with the title track, while Never Enough is bottom of the barrel DT imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 03, 2021, 06:26:51 AM
Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

I completely agree with you on SC. It is one of the best DT albums and is far better than say Octavarium.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 03, 2021, 08:51:18 AM
So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 03, 2021, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Let's see.
Welcome to the forum!

Just to show some differences of opinions (and that's all they are):

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
For one, I think SDoIT was generally not too great of an album (especially considering the others around that time)
I think it's easily one of their finest albums, falling just below the triumvirate of Images & Words, Awake, and Scenes From A Memory.

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)
Not sure how underrated Disappear is, but it's definitely a favorite of mine.  I would add that whatever underrating it may suffer from is most likely from the rarity of its live performances (only twice).

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album, and it has some songs that I love quite a bit (Hollow Years, Trial of Tears)
It certainly is perfectly fine.  The problem is that it came after Images & Words and Awake, both of which were EXCEPTIONAL albums, for which FII suffered by comparison.  If you weren't a fan at the time, I completely understand how that wouldn't be a factor.

BTW, it also contains, among its less stellar offerings, some of my favorites as well (Lines in The Sand, Trial of Tears, etc).

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)
I kind of like SC, but I find that the music has little depth, offering surface-level enjoyment only.  It's a great driving album.
But BC&SL is mostly dreck.

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
These Walls is one of the worst Dream Theater songs (But the rest of the songs on Octavarium keep the album at a high place anyway)
These Walls isn't even one of the worst songs on Octavarium.

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)
I agree about the album, but I love Along For The Ride.

Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)
The Astonishing is definitely an oddball in the discography, but worse than WDADU?  No way. 

The only other thing in DT's output worse than WDADU is Raw Dog.



Again, welcome!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 03, 2021, 09:56:59 AM
Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)

You'll find that's not so much the case around here.  IMO, Disappear is MASSIVELY overrated around here.


Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album. . . .

. . .

The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)

I don't know how many of these are even controversial (Especially the last one) but they're my opinions that I first think of.

Yeah...these aren't controversial in the slightest, but keep in mind that "perfectly fine" is hardly glowing praise.


Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

These are "controversial."  SC is routinely regarded as a bottom 3-4 album (for me, it's 13/14, above only TA).  BC&SL is slightly better, but not by much.


Quote from: Skriller on June 03, 2021, 03:43:46 AM
The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)

I agree about the album as a whole.  In fact, while Breaking All Illusions is my favorite Mangini era track, DT12 is my favorite of the Mangini albums.  I also love Along for the Ride.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 03, 2021, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 03, 2021, 08:51:18 AM
So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 03, 2021, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 03, 2021, 10:50:20 AM
That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?

Well like I mentioned I tried to compare the last 4 albums with MM and their last 4 albums before MP left just to show that indeed at least in my point of view they aren't as strong and epic as they've done moving forward. The one side showed that there was a consistency behind openers and the other side that although very good (On the Back's of Angels i.e) and moving forward they have become less capable to make me that more excited.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 03, 2021, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 03, 2021, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 03, 2021, 08:51:18 AM
So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?

I kinda wondered the same thing.

Also, IMO, AIA > Root > Enemy > OTBOA > UA > TGOM > Nightmare > ITPOE, and TGOM isn't the opening track on TA.  It's the first track with lyrics, but I'm not sure why Dystopian Overture would be ignored.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 03, 2021, 11:40:16 AM
I chose it because it's the first song of the album, like the self titled I didn't chose the False Awaking suite.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 03, 2021, 04:20:16 PM
Yeah, I also noticed that one list was in chronological order and the other in reverse order.  Seemed like intentionally trying to create mismatches due to bias, so I just laughed off the list and didn't bother to respond.  But since it came back up, I'll just say that I think it's a flawed premise.  I think all of them are pretty good, and the quality has been pretty consistent.  If I had to rank them:

1.  In the Presence of Enemies
2.  The Gift of Music*
3.  A Nightmare To Remember
4.  Untethered Angel
5.  On the Back of Angels
6.  The Root of All Evil
7.  The Enemy Inside
8.  As I Am

*Yeah, I get why you listed this as an "opening track."  Better comparison to compare full songs vs. an intro/instrumental.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 03, 2021, 10:18:06 PM
How I rank them:

ItPoE
Nightmare
Root
OtBoA
As I Am
UA
TGoM
Enemy (I really dislike this song - as much as I can dislike DT)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 03, 2021, 10:54:12 PM
1. A Nightmare To Remember
2. The Root of All Evil
3. The Gift of Music
4. In the Presence of Enemies Part 1
5. On The Backs Of Angels
6. The Enemy Inside
7. Untethered Angel
8. As I Am
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 04, 2021, 05:13:33 AM
Always finding new things to rank!  :lol

1. As I Am
2. On the Backs of Angels
3. The Gift of Music
4. In the Presence of Enemies
5. Untethered Angel
6. The Enemy Inside
7. The Root of All Evil
8. A Nightmare to Remember
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IgnotusPerIgnotium on June 04, 2021, 05:24:38 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 03, 2021, 04:20:16 PM
Yeah, I also noticed that one list was in chronological order and the other in reverse order.  Seemed like intentionally trying to create mismatches due to bias, so I just laughed off the list and didn't bother to respond.  But since it came back up, I'll just say that I think it's a flawed premise.  I think all of them are pretty good, and the quality has been pretty consistent.

I chose to do a reverse list because they're equal enjoyable to me and show the consistency behind them. Their quality stems from being powerful, different and with more character. The other list ranks itself in the exact order as they released them, imo of course. Especially in DoT it seems that if UA wasn't the opening track, every other track could have taken its place and it would be just the same.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 04, 2021, 07:21:34 AM
If I were to rank those opening tracks.

1. In The Presence of Enemies pt.1
2. The Root of All Evil
3. The Gift of Music
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. On The Backs of Angels
6. The Enemy Inside
7. Untethered Angel
8. As I Am
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 04, 2021, 09:48:49 AM
Quote from: DTA on June 03, 2021, 05:02:14 AM
I loved Octavarium when it came out but overall, the songs just seem weak in retrospect. These Walls would be a standout for me along with the title track, while Never Enough is bottom of the barrel DT imo.

Octavarium (the album) is one of those albums where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, though obviously the title track is a supreme DT song.
I don't listen to the other individual tracks as much, as I really enjoy the album experience that 8vm provides, what with the changing keys theme, and the "in between" tracks that connect each other. I find the songs way more enjoyable in the context of the album, besides the title track (and I do like throwing on Sacrificed Sons by itself on occasion) The format also splits the album up reminiscent of old vinyl releases. The first 4 songs is like side A, the next 3 are side B, and the title track takes up the entire side C.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 04, 2021, 09:56:28 AM
I agree that the opening songs in the MM era have been getting weaker with each album.

On The Backs of Angels
FAS/The Enemy Inside
DotN/Dystopian Overture/The Gift of Music
Untethered Angel

OTBOA is the best opener in the MM era, TEI works as an opener, but it's such a weak DT song.
The opening run on TA is some of the better music on TA, and I actually find UA to be bad as an opener. Sounds like a 2nd or 3rd track song, like A Rite of Passage.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 04, 2021, 10:08:47 AM
I must admit that I was initially put off by Untethered Angel.  Not so much now, but it is weaker than most of their openers.  The rest of the album makes up for it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 04, 2021, 10:48:31 AM
Now when one says "weaker", what exactly are you meaning by it?

For me, it depends on what the purpose of the album opener is.

If it's meant to draw you in, then I can see it a bit.

But, also, the Mangini era album openers are in fact their singles. And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend. Since then, each single has followed a certain type of structure, and sound, OTBOA/TEI/UA all have a similar sound and structure, although Untethered Angel doesn't really follow that style as much as OTBOA/TEI/AROP/CM do.

Untethered Angel, is the first single where I thought, ok, this is the single song, and the one that will open the forthcoming tour, it's not bad, it's ok. The meat is what comes after. And with D/T, they made all the first 3 songs their singles. I think they made this track-listing like this to draw in the newer casual fans. To me D/T has a nice flow going from their single, metal-style type of songs, into their more obscure. Pale Blue Dot is a great closer, and one of their songs with a more obscure structure. It's not their usual epic style album closer either, this album closer is more of a closer that doesn't resolve, but keeps you in suspense, like being left floating in space.

I wouldn't include The Astonishing in this at all, due to it being a concept album, and it's the same with SFAM.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 04, 2021, 03:19:09 PM
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 04, 2021, 03:49:18 PM
I guess we’re ranking the opening tracks now…

01: The Root of All Evil
02: A Nightmare to Remember
03: As I Am
04: Pull Me Under
05: 6:00
06: The Glass Prison
07: In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
08: On the Backs of Angels
09: Untethered Angel
10: False Awakening Suite
11: A Fortune in Lies
12: New Millennium
13: Regression
14: Decent of the Nomacs
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 05, 2021, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 04, 2021, 10:48:31 AM
And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend.

I see this comparison often and I have to say, I don't really know how people hear it. I mean yeah, they're both metal songs with a fairly lengthy instrumental section and yes, from a birds-eye-view are both intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-instrumental-chorus-outro... but when one looks a bit further, the similarity tends to break. The second verse in both tracks deviates from the first in both, but ARoP keeps a similar vibe for its duration while Constant Motion goes to two separate melodic ideas and then returns to the first verse's template. It also has that "I try to shut it down" bit in the middle of the first verse that has the feeling of either a pre-chorus or a bridge, but never returns. Meanwhile, ARoP has a pretty definitive pre-chorus with the "Beneath the ever watchful eye" section that repeats twice. Add in the fact that both are musically very different songs and how one instrumental section is a drastic tempo shift while the other follows in the momentum of the song's frantic pace and the comparison feels even less obvious.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 05, 2021, 08:14:20 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 05, 2021, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 04, 2021, 10:48:31 AM
And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend.

I see this comparison often and I have to say, I don't really know how people hear it. I mean yeah, they're both metal songs with a fairly lengthy instrumental section and yes, from a birds-eye-view are both intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-instrumental-chorus-outro... but when one looks a bit further, the similarity tends to break. The second verse in both tracks deviates from the first in both, but ARoP keeps a similar vibe for its duration while Constant Motion goes to two separate melodic ideas and then returns to the first verse's template. It also has that "I try to shut it down" bit in the middle of the first verse that has the feeling of either a pre-chorus or a bridge, but never returns. Meanwhile, ARoP has a pretty definitive pre-chorus with the "Beneath the ever watchful eye" section that repeats twice. Add in the fact that both are musically very different songs and how one instrumental section is a drastic tempo shift while the other follows in the momentum of the song's frantic pace and the comparison feels even less obvious.

Well yeah, that's what makes it, its own song.

It's the structure of both is where the comparison is. Both have that same structure that is pretty similar. Both are metal songs, as well, and are meant to be catchy. But that reason alone, is why I don't like both. Even though both are great songs as well.

I actually prefer AROP actual main riff, but do not really enjoy the subject matter. Although, it is fascinating that JP would write about Freemasons.

Constant Motion has the awesome instrumental solo. And I actually like MP's drumming in this song, mainly his cymbal work. And how the instrumental starts with a JM solo riff before the band comes in...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: EraVulgaris on June 05, 2021, 09:36:28 AM
Viper King is a Top 5 Dream Theater song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 05, 2021, 09:44:50 AM
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 05, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 05, 2021, 09:44:50 AM
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.
I can relate to that. I'll take it a step further and admit that I've been listening to audience bootlegs more than studio releases or official live releases for the same reason.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 05, 2021, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 05, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 05, 2021, 09:44:50 AM
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.
I can relate to that. I'll take it a step further and admit that I've been listening to audience bootlegs more than studio releases or official live releases for the same reason.

Perfection is a tad overrated I think. I want to hear the human-ness. And ya bootlegs give you that audience element that is fun, like you are standing next to them waiting, watching your fave band..I love that feeling at the concerts!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 05, 2021, 12:59:51 PM
Usually if I go on a DT binge, it's pretty much all boots.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 07, 2021, 10:44:28 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 04, 2021, 03:19:09 PM
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on June 07, 2021, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 07, 2021, 10:44:28 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 04, 2021, 03:19:09 PM
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.
this is what I thought of (and still do) of D/T, seriously. (and IMHO, D/T isn't even remotely close to DT12 part 2, far more basic than DT12. Too basic.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 07, 2021, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on June 07, 2021, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 07, 2021, 10:44:28 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 04, 2021, 03:19:09 PM
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.
this is what I thought of (and still do) of D/T, seriously. (and IMHO, D/T isn't even remotely close to DT12 part 2, far more basic than DT12. Too basic.)

Yeah, the more I think of it I’d probably rank DT12 over D/T.

DT12 has some decent riffs (Looking Glass, Enemy Inside) some memorable hooks (Surrender to Reason, Bigger Picture) and an epic Illumination Theory, which I don’t really like, but it’s a good effort. Along for the Ride is really the only offensively bad tune.

The only memorable tunes in D/T for me are Barstool Warrior, At Wits End, and S2N and even the latter two dont really work as a whole for me. Room 137 and Viper King are probably in the bottom 10 songs the band has ever done and the “flagship” tune Pale Blue Dot is easily the longest 8 minutes of the band’s discography  :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2021, 03:33:56 PM
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 07, 2021, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on June 05, 2021, 09:36:28 AM
Viper King is a Top 5 Dream Theater song.
I'm glad that someone finally had the courage to say it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 07, 2021, 03:55:18 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2021, 03:33:56 PM
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.
Call them what you want. I prefer to refer to them as s/t and d/t myself.   :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM
DoT has not aged well for me. I first thought it was a return to form (for the Mangini era) but I've realized it is as "bad" as DT12, maybe worse.
While DoT has better production, the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before. I've also grown tired of Rudess' playing in DT.
 
Besides production, DT12 suffers from bad track listing IMO, and works WAAAAYYYY better with an altered track order, and overall I think the songs themselves are stronger on DT12 than on DoT.

DoT has the best song from both albums (Barstool Warrior) but DT12 has the flawed epic IT, whereas DoT's epic seems castrated and shortened for the sake of it instead of fleshing it out more.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 07, 2021, 04:25:32 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2021, 03:33:56 PM
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.

I still have a hard time with calling Rush’s Grace Under Pressure p/g after all these years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:28:32 PM
I've always called it DoT, not D/T, there is no / in the title.

Same with IaW, it's not I&W.

DT12 just makes it easier for most to understand which album we're talking about, it's their self-titled 12th album. That's what you get for self-titling your 12th album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 07, 2021, 04:31:02 PM
I definitely use the & in I&W.


I use DoT and not D/T.

But at least D/T reads left to right as opposed to P/G.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 07, 2021, 04:52:37 PM
I imagine the ONLY reason folks use p/g (lower case) for Grace Under Pressure is because "p/g" appears on the album cover.  Someone (I believe it was back on the MP forums) insisted that "GUP" was not a proper shorthand and that only "p/g" was correct.  Because of that, I've exclusively used GUP ever since.

For me:

Dream Theater is DT12.

Distance over Time is DOT.

Images and Words is I&W.  The difference between "I&W" and "IaW" is insignificant, and insisting that one must use "a," instead of "&," because the word "and" is spelled out in the title is excessively pedantic.

I have long since stopped bothering with making articles and prepositions lower case when using acronyms.  "TOWHtStS" is just too much of a pain.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 07, 2021, 05:37:05 PM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 07, 2021, 03:33:56 PM
I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.

It's like a nice massage for my gray matter
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 07, 2021, 07:08:51 PM
WDaDU
IaW
Awake
ACoS
FII
SFaM
SDoIT
TOT (because Trial of Tears is ToT)
8vm
SC
BC&SL
ADToE
DT12
TA
D/T
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 07, 2021, 07:13:54 PM
I always use & to note "and" in acronyms, both because it gives more information & because I always use it in writing anyway.

(except WDADU, because it sounds funny to say out loud :lol)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 07, 2021, 09:35:43 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 07, 2021, 07:08:51 PM
WDaDU
IaW
Awake
ACoS
FII
SFaM
SDoIT
TOT (because Trial of Tears is ToT)
8vm
SC
BC&SL
ADToE
DT12
TA
D/T
Pretty close to how I would do it. Changes are ToT (pretty easy to determine what I'm speaking about based on the context), 8v, BCaSL, s/t and d/t. I write d/t lowercase since it is an equation and appears as lowercase in the artwork.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 07, 2021, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM
DoT has not aged well for me. .... the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before.

About where I am at (deleted the parts I didn't want to focus on). It is a good album. I just want more than a good album from my favorite band, even if we are up to 14 releases. It's an album I could listen to all the way through and not feel compelled to skip anything, yet would only have my ears perk up during At Wit's End. And James, despite age and limitations, has way more to bring to the table than this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 04:21:36 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 07, 2021, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM
DoT has not aged well for me. .... the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before.

About where I am at (deleted the parts I didn't want to focus on). It is a good album. I just want more than a good album from my favorite band, even if we are up to 14 releases. It's an album I could listen to all the way through and not feel compelled to skip anything, yet would only have my ears perk up during At Wit's End. And James, despite age and limitations, has way more to bring to the table than this.

His vocals just bore me now, and sometimes make me cringe at how bad they are. For all the drama, I think JLB needed MP to push him in the studio to put out a better performance. Every album since MP left, JLB just sounds like he's doing his job then going home. Maybe a little more effort was put in for The Astonishing, but that's because that concept required a bit more from him. Like Rudess, I think his ability to shine in a super metal context has passed. Both he and JR seem more inspired in less metal environments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 08, 2021, 06:08:44 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 07, 2021, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: EraVulgaris on June 05, 2021, 09:36:28 AM
Viper King is a Top 5 Dream Theater song.
I'm glad that someone finally had the courage to say it.

I don't know if it's top 5 but it's real fucking close. Fantastic song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 08, 2021, 08:01:02 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 04:21:36 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 07, 2021, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM
DoT has not aged well for me. .... the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before.

About where I am at (deleted the parts I didn't want to focus on). It is a good album. I just want more than a good album from my favorite band, even if we are up to 14 releases. It's an album I could listen to all the way through and not feel compelled to skip anything, yet would only have my ears perk up during At Wit's End. And James, despite age and limitations, has way more to bring to the table than this.

His vocals just bore me now, and sometimes make me cringe at how bad they are. For all the drama, I think JLB needed MP to push him in the studio to put out a better performance. Every album since MP left, JLB just sounds like he's doing his job then going home. Maybe a little more effort was put in for The Astonishing, but that's because that concept required a bit more from him. Like Rudess, I think his ability to shine in a super metal context has passed. Both he and JR seem more inspired in less metal environments.

It's not a popular opinion around here, but I've always thought this as well.  Even if it's not "pushing", or "telling him what to sing", just the presence and the interaction of having the performance be evaluated between the band in real time is, I think, important.  And credit to James, he's proud of his vocals and puts in the work, and so that competitive, sort of inspirational aspect of doing it face-to-face in real time is, I think, important.  It's the same reason that the Neal Morse Band ALWAYS gets together in Tennessee to create, as opposed to doing it remote.  I'm not, however, in the band, so what do I know?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 04:21:36 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 07, 2021, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM
DoT has not aged well for me. .... the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before.

About where I am at (deleted the parts I didn't want to focus on). It is a good album. I just want more than a good album from my favorite band, even if we are up to 14 releases. It's an album I could listen to all the way through and not feel compelled to skip anything, yet would only have my ears perk up during At Wit's End. And James, despite age and limitations, has way more to bring to the table than this.

His vocals just bore me now, and sometimes make me cringe at how bad they are. For all the drama, I think JLB needed MP to push him in the studio to put out a better performance. Every album since MP left, JLB just sounds like he's doing his job then going home. Maybe a little more effort was put in for The Astonishing, but that's because that concept required a bit more from him. Like Rudess, I think his ability to shine in a super metal context has passed. Both he and JR seem more inspired in less metal environments.

MP is a great producer as he can envision and hear how the album should sound. He has a great ear for this, and it shows. He is a music fan at heart, and this helped him develop an ear that a producer needs to have, a diverse ear. He has so many albums and has heard different types of productions. MP also has a good ear for vocals because he likes to sing, and can sing the melodies enough to showcase what he has in his head. He's adamant about getting the album to sound like it does in his head.

JP is not that great of a producer. He's not bad, but not great either. He doesn't really have that ear, or personality to be that producer that MP is. JP let's his singer have more of the final say, because JP is not a good singer. He works with LaBrie, and let's him have a choice of how the melody should be worked out.

I do not know if they still have that Lyricist create the vocal melody rule anymore? I'm guessing not, as JP works with Myung to develop vocal melodies and rearrange his words to fit vocally better in the song and it's melodies.

But, in actuality, they're just producers with two different styles of producing.


Reminds me of how Arjen works with his singers, and how he is happy with what they give him, but sometimes the singers go the extra mile themselves and do some things Arjen wouldnt have even thought of...Mike Mills singing his layered 01's in The Day That The World Breaks Down.

And how Tobias Sammet got Geoff Tate to showcase just how good his vocals still are, and that he is more than capable of singing better. I feel, this have Geoff an extra boost and good kick in the ass about his vocals. The last time I saw him he was pretty good, not amazing like in his prime, but still great enough to tolerate now, for me anyways.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 08, 2021, 08:45:59 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 04:21:36 AM
His vocals just bore me now, and sometimes make me cringe at how bad they are.

Bashing band members is and has always been against the forum rules.  The thread title inviting "controversial opinions" is not a license to break the rules.  If you aren't sure how far is "too far" before you have crossed a line, then I suggest keeping your opinions to yourself.  Further posts like this will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 08, 2021, 12:26:49 PM
D/T is pretty unique in how many effects are on JLB's voice, which I think is pretty much wholly down to production choices. I think he had a rough patch in 2017 recently, but I think performances since then have shown that was something of a fluke. I would've preferred JLB to have had a more moderate production on D/T but I don't think it was used to be a crutch. I also find it ironic that "I think his ability to shine in a super metal context has passed" is said, given that I don't think his performances are all that metallic these days on the studio albums, compared to the grit on something like Black Clouds. I think that since JP has been the sole producer, that element has definitely been dialed back, at least from what I remember. He doesn't give many performances like The Dark Eternal Night, Constant Motion or A Nightmare to Remember any more. To some degree I miss that, but I also don't really mind his current approach either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TM172003 on June 08, 2021, 01:20:17 PM
The amount of effects that are chucked on James’ voice is one of the only things that I don’t like about d/t. That and Room 137.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 08, 2021, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: TM172003 on June 08, 2021, 01:20:17 PM
The amount of effects that are chucked on James’ voice is one of the only things that I don’t like about d/t. That and Room 137.

:/
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 08, 2021, 08:45:59 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 08, 2021, 04:21:36 AM
His vocals just bore me now, and sometimes make me cringe at how bad they are.

Bashing band members is and has always been against the forum rules.  The thread title inviting "controversial opinions" is not a license to break the rules.  If you aren't sure how far is "too far" before you have crossed a line, then I suggest keeping your opinions to yourself.  Further posts like this will not be tolerated.

My apologies. I didn't mean to break the rules, and I didn't mean to bash JLB. I do think he still has great moments as well. I think the best part of The Astonishing is JLB's vocals. His performance is just more captivating and he doesn't sound as over-produced.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 08, 2021, 03:43:47 PM
I agree about the production of the vocals on D/T. I still love James voice and want to hear It. Of course funky stuff here and there is cool. But it doesn't sound right to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM
MP is a great producer as he can envision and hear how the album should sound. He has a great ear for this, and it shows. He is a music fan at heart, and this helped him develop an ear that a producer needs to have, a diverse ear.

<snip>

JP is not that great of a producer. He's not bad, but not great either. He doesn't really have that ear, or personality to be that producer that MP is. JP let's his singer have more of the final say, because JP is not a good singer. He works with LaBrie, and let's him have a choice of how the melody should be worked out.
I think there is definitely some truth to the above statements. The first thing that came to my mind reading this post was when they were recording TDEN. JP had a vocal melody that he wanted JL to sing, but MP found that it didn't work, and pushed for the more rapping-style vocals that the verses ultimately ended up in. Would love to hear how JP originally had intended the vocals to be as I can't imagine them being anything other than what's on the album.
 
 
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM
I do not know if they still have that Lyricist create the vocal melody rule anymore? I'm guessing not, as JP works with Myung to develop vocal melodies and rearrange his words to fit vocally better in the song and it's melodies.
Pretty sure the rule still stands. However, JM has *never* written vocal melodies. All his lyrics were (and probably still are) presented in poem form and need to be formatted into lyric form. Whoever formats them (probably JP most of the time) is the one who I would expect also would come up with the vocal melodies.


Quote from: Enigmachine on June 08, 2021, 12:26:49 PM
D/T is pretty unique in how many effects are on JLB's voice, which I think is pretty much wholly down to production choices.
I'd like to think it was just a production choice, but I do have to wonder if it was partly due to his vocal abilities not being what they once were. Guess we'll find out soon enough when the new album is released.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on June 08, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
I think JLB's vocals on the albums still sound great. He has a unique tone and style that I continue to love. I could argue that his performances have lent the most relatable character to what have been been (mostly) stylistically uninteresting records following Octavarium.

(That doesn't include TA, obvs. I dislike it but it was unexpected in style)

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 08, 2021, 06:28:48 PM
I think JLB has always a much better rock singer than metal singer.  Granted, Awake, which is pretty heavy at times, is my favorite DT album, and he is great on that, but that was before he had the food poisoning mishap.  The problem with JLB doing metal is that he tries too hard sometimes, especially live, and doesn't always come off well.  He was great on all of The Astonishing, which was mostly rock and not much metal, and he was great on a laid back tune like Out of Reach on the last album and still sounded great on the softer parts of Barstool Warrior and At Wit's End.  Live is another story, but he can still bring it in the studio, so long as the style fits what his strengths are, IMO (which I do not think are singing metal tunes anymore).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 08, 2021, 09:41:40 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 08, 2021, 06:28:48 PM
I think JLB has always a much better rock singer than metal singer.  Granted, Awake, which is pretty heavy at times, is my favorite DT album, and he is great on that, but that was before he had the food poisoning mishap.  The problem with JLB doing metal is that he tries too hard sometimes, especially live, and doesn't always come off well.  He was great on all of The Astonishing, which was mostly rock and not much metal, and he was great on a laid back tune like Out of Reach on the last album and still sounded great on the softer parts of Barstool Warrior and At Wit's End.  Live is another story, but he can still bring it in the studio, so long as the style fits what his strengths are, IMO (which I do not think are singing metal tunes anymore).

Yes, as much as I love some of the high moments on I&W and the more raw metal moments on Awake, I always felt DT did him no favors by going increasingly metal after SFAM. Since Awake at least he’s at his best when he’s going for a more soulful rock/pop approach (but that goes for the whole band really).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 08, 2021, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM
MP is a great producer as he can envision and hear how the album should sound. He has a great ear for this, and it shows. He is a music fan at heart, and this helped him develop an ear that a producer needs to have, a diverse ear.

<snip>

JP is not that great of a producer. He's not bad, but not great either. He doesn't really have that ear, or personality to be that producer that MP is. JP let's his singer have more of the final say, because JP is not a good singer. He works with LaBrie, and let's him have a choice of how the melody should be worked out.
I think there is definitely some truth to the above statements. The first thing that came to my mind reading this post was when they were recording TDEN. JP had a vocal melody that he wanted JL to sing, but MP found that it didn't work, and pushed for the more rapping-style vocals that the verses ultimately ended up in. Would love to hear how JP originally had intended the vocals to be as I can't imagine them being anything other than what's on the album.

Personal preference I guess, but I don't consider TDEN a good use of James' abilities and strengths at all. I appreciate Mike's desire to push his bandmates, but also feel sometimes James got pushed in the wrong direction a few times. I likewise appreciate a producer letting a band member find their way, but understand everyone needs some direction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 08, 2021, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 08, 2021, 08:37:17 AM
MP is a great producer as he can envision and hear how the album should sound. He has a great ear for this, and it shows. He is a music fan at heart, and this helped him develop an ear that a producer needs to have, a diverse ear.

<snip>

JP is not that great of a producer. He's not bad, but not great either. He doesn't really have that ear, or personality to be that producer that MP is. JP let's his singer have more of the final say, because JP is not a good singer. He works with LaBrie, and let's him have a choice of how the melody should be worked out.
I think there is definitely some truth to the above statements. The first thing that came to my mind reading this post was when they were recording TDEN. JP had a vocal melody that he wanted JL to sing, but MP found that it didn't work, and pushed for the more rapping-style vocals that the verses ultimately ended up in. Would love to hear how JP originally had intended the vocals to be as I can't imagine them being anything other than what's on the album.

Personal preference I guess, but I don't consider TDEN a good use of James' abilities and strengths at all. I appreciate Mike's desire to push his bandmates, but also feel sometimes James got pushed in the wrong direction a few times. I likewise appreciate a producer letting a band member find their way, but understand everyone needs some direction.
Not disagreeing with your point that TDEN doesn't make good use of JL's abilities, but it's what the song probably called for - I say probably because having not heard the original way JP wanted JL to sing it, it's impossible to know whether it would be better or worse than what ended up on the album. But while I personally am not a big fan of the song, I can't say that I begrudge MP for the direction he gave for how the vocal lines should be presented.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 09, 2021, 04:40:39 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 08, 2021, 09:41:40 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 08, 2021, 06:28:48 PM
I think JLB has always a much better rock singer than metal singer.  Granted, Awake, which is pretty heavy at times, is my favorite DT album, and he is great on that, but that was before he had the food poisoning mishap.  The problem with JLB doing metal is that he tries too hard sometimes, especially live, and doesn't always come off well.  He was great on all of The Astonishing, which was mostly rock and not much metal, and he was great on a laid back tune like Out of Reach on the last album and still sounded great on the softer parts of Barstool Warrior and At Wit's End.  Live is another story, but he can still bring it in the studio, so long as the style fits what his strengths are, IMO (which I do not think are singing metal tunes anymore).

Yes, as much as I love some of the high moments on I&W and the more raw metal moments on Awake, I always felt DT did him no favors by going increasingly metal after SFAM. Since Awake at least he’s at his best when he’s going for a more soulful rock/pop approach (but that goes for the whole band really).

I always thought "metal" was the weakest element in DT, overall, both in the old days, and post-SFAM.

Their strengths are rock, jazz-fusion, prog rock, pop, and softer elements. They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

But I did like JP's heavy tone from SDoIT - BC&SL.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 09, 2021, 07:46:40 AM
I always liked the juxtaposition.  I've frequently written that when I first "met" Dream Theater, it was like Rush and Iron Maiden decided to jam, and Steve Perry came down and sang on it.   And that's what I think is unique and what I love.  I'm not really interested in JLB trying to be like Jeff Scott Soto or Russell Allen.   Not only does that not suit JLB's voice, but I'm not the hugest fan of those singers, and besides, if I want to hear those singers, I'll get THEIR material. 

There are plenty of "heavier" songs in the catalogue that don't have JLB trying to be something that's not in his wheel house.

(And I'm being a little hyperbolic to make a point here, but I think you get which direction I'm pointed in.)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 09, 2021, 09:31:29 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
Not disagreeing with your point that TDEN doesn't make good use of JL's abilities, but it's what the song probably called for - I say probably because having not heard the original way JP wanted JL to sing it, it's impossible to know whether it would be better or worse than what ended up on the album. But while I personally am not a big fan of the song, I can't say that I begrudge MP for the direction he gave for how the vocal lines should be presented.

I basically agree.  Is it what James is best at?  Nope.  Does it work within the context of the song?  Yup.  There are plenty of songs where the vocal melody and style is "standard."  Those are great.  But I also enjoy the times where they branch out and experiment with different things.  Sometimes, those experiments work better than other times.  But I'm almost always glad they find ways to make things fun and refreshing by trying different things.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 09, 2021, 09:38:07 AM
I find it interesting that '6 Degrees,' an album widely regard as one of DT's best, also features loads of vocal effects, and no one seems to ever cite those.

For my money, a little flanger here ('Great Debate'), a little harmony there "Misunderstood') makes for an interesting listen. After all, live, it's all clean (for the most part).

I was a huge detractor of D/T when it first dropped, but at this point, some 20-30 spins later, I have really come around, and now consider it the second best (behind only ADTOE) of the Mangini era.

As far as James goes—I've been in his corner on these boards for years, so I'm obviously heavily biased, but I still think he's at the top of his game on record, and consider D/T to be a really strong performance.

To Stadler's point, the whole 'Steve Perry' meets 'Metallica' thing is what drew me to the band (Perry is my favorite vocalist all-time).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 09, 2021, 11:02:46 AM
I agree with the comment about the "not metal" voice mixing with metal music.. and that having some effects, like on Six Degrees are cool. I like texture and not boring. Most metal bands get boring - even my old fave Metallica. Prog Rock bands to me are boring as I don't care for "light" music. DT's mix is perfect. That said, the effects on James voice on D/T is mostly just the same weird sound on the whole record.  I do like D/T, it's always an enjoyable listen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 09, 2021, 11:26:16 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 09, 2021, 07:46:40 AM
I always liked the juxtaposition.  I've frequently written that when I first "met" Dream Theater, it was like Rush and Iron Maiden decided to jam, and Steve Perry came down and sang on it.   And that's what I think is unique and what I love. I'm not really interested in JLB trying to be like Jeff Scott Soto or Russell Allen.   Not only does that not suit JLB's voice, but I'm not the hugest fan of those singers, and besides, if I want to hear those singers, I'll get THEIR material. 

There are plenty of "heavier" songs in the catalogue that don't have JLB trying to be something that's not in his wheel house.

(And I'm being a little hyperbolic to make a point here, but I think you get which direction I'm pointed in.)

I agree, but that's the direction MP was pushing towards.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 09, 2021, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 09, 2021, 11:26:16 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 09, 2021, 07:46:40 AM
I always liked the juxtaposition.  I've frequently written that when I first "met" Dream Theater, it was like Rush and Iron Maiden decided to jam, and Steve Perry came down and sang on it.   And that's what I think is unique and what I love. I'm not really interested in JLB trying to be like Jeff Scott Soto or Russell Allen.   Not only does that not suit JLB's voice, but I'm not the hugest fan of those singers, and besides, if I want to hear those singers, I'll get THEIR material. 

There are plenty of "heavier" songs in the catalogue that don't have JLB trying to be something that's not in his wheel house.

(And I'm being a little hyperbolic to make a point here, but I think you get which direction I'm pointed in.)



I agree, but that's the direction MP was pushing towards.

No doubt.  He seems to be enamored of both singers.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 10, 2021, 06:56:26 AM
What does everyone think of Labrie "singing" the growled vocals section of A Nightmare to Remember live ?

I think it's interesting and i'm glad they didn't just pipe in MP's vocal track and try to pretend it was Petrucci doing it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 10, 2021, 07:03:02 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 10, 2021, 06:56:26 AM
What does everyone think of Labrie "singing" the growled vocals section of A Nightmare to Remember live ?

I think it's interesting and i'm glad they didn't just pipe in MP's vocal track and try to pretend it was Petrucci doing it.

Personally, I think this recent live version is amazing, and my definitive version of the song going forward. The final scream from James in that section is just so  :metal, and yes, I am happy he does 'his' thing there. I never liked MPs vocal part, and would have always preferred a sung section.

This is where demoing and rehearsing can help (as opposed to just writing and recording in the studio). I bet that if the band had given the song some time to germinate, they would have eventually modified that section. It's 'fine' as it is, but play it live ten times before you record it, and I'm pretty sure they'd have figured out a better vocal part there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 10, 2021, 07:51:47 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 10, 2021, 06:56:26 AM
What does everyone think of Labrie "singing" the growled vocals section of A Nightmare to Remember live ?

I think it's interesting and i'm glad they didn't just pipe in MP's vocal track and try to pretend it was Petrucci doing it.

I miss Portnoy's vocals there, but I agree that piping them in would have been lame.  But James singing that part is fine.  It doesn't detract from the song at all. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
JLB's scream at the end of that section is epic! :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 10, 2021, 08:21:56 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
JLB's scream at the end of that section is epic! :2metal:

There's a live version of 'The Glass Prison' floating around on a Gigantour comp from about 15 years ago that's equally epic—James just slays that version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 10, 2021, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
JLB's scream at the end of that section is epic! :2metal:

I think that is one of the worst parts of the ANTR live. I don't remember it when I saw it live but when I got the album and heard it really made my skin crawl.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 10, 2021, 08:33:33 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on June 10, 2021, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
JLB's scream at the end of that section is epic! :2metal:

I think that is one of the worst parts of the ANTR live. I don't remember it when I saw it live but when I got the album and heard it really made my skin crawl.

I also dig it. Every time I hear it I get a big smile on my face.  :D There is another good one I think, either on Beyond This Life or Finally Free.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:37:39 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on June 10, 2021, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on June 10, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
JLB's scream at the end of that section is epic! :2metal:

I think that is one of the worst parts of the ANTR live. I don't remember it when I saw it live but when I got the album and heard it really made my skin crawl.

I'm talking about the Distant Memories live version with JLB's scream at the end, not the studio version with MP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 10, 2021, 01:52:15 PM
That's also the one I'm referring to, it's terrible IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 10, 2021, 04:02:35 PM
I actually liked James singing it. Fun fact, I was at the concert in Rio de Janeiro, and when that part came up, I growled at end of it. Mind you, I'm a terrible growler, I can barely do Tuvan/Mongolian throat singing, but it came out alright to the point that this dude standing next to me  looked at me like: O_O
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 11, 2021, 10:49:14 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 08, 2021, 03:48:03 PM
I'd like to think it was just a production choice, but I do have to wonder if it was partly due to his vocal abilities not being what they once were. Guess we'll find out soon enough when the new album is released.

I must admit that the recent cover of Kickstart My Heart is cause for concern in how it's even more heavily layered with effects, but I do still think Holiday Spirit is a very solid performance.

Quote from: darkshade on June 09, 2021, 04:40:39 AM
They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

...Or because the members (John Petrucci in particular) generally like metal quite a bit. Not sure why there has to be a ulterior motive to it. Just because you prefer their sound one way, doesn't mean the band are deliberately trying to compromise it when they go in a different direction.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 11, 2021, 10:49:14 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 09, 2021, 04:40:39 AM
They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

...Or because the members (John Petrucci in particular) generally like metal quite a bit. Not sure why there has to be a ulterior motive to it. Just because you prefer their sound one way, doesn't mean the band are deliberately trying to compromise it when they go in a different direction.

Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound. Part of the reason I ever got into the band was because of their heavier songs, but I stuck around because of how diverse their catalog was (is), compared to recent efforts. The Astonishing had the right idea but I didn't care for the execution overall, nor the long-winded length of it all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zook on June 11, 2021, 09:35:45 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

no u
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 11, 2021, 10:40:27 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

???????????
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on June 12, 2021, 12:43:45 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Ooo, that is controversial.  ;D

(I love it like I did the first time I heard it. Tons of heavy energy without sounding like they're trying too hard to be dark/brutal (cough TOT cough)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 04:43:52 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Couldn’t disagree with this statement more… I think the glass prison is one of those songs that gets better every single time you listen to it.  An incredibly fun, unique, creative piece of music coming from one of the greatest bands at their absolute creative peak. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 04:51:29 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

I don’t think Dream Theater adapting their sound to stay with the times means that they don’t have integrity…. It means they are smart businessmen who have figured out a way to still make great music while not becoming “that old band from the 90’s”.   

To me so much of it has to do with production… Im a prog guy and an 80’s metal guy but find D/T to have the warmest production in many years.  Whereas SC has a thin, stale, metallic production.  I never listen to ITPOE because I hate how it sounds…however that song is amazing live when free from its stale production.

Plus on D/T they were bringing back some of that 80’s vibe with songs like Out of Reach, Viper King and Fall Into the Light (especially mid section).  So despite me being a prog/80’s metal guy I really like D/T.

The TOT-ADTOE run just didn’t have that vibe at all IMO.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 04:55:24 AM
Ignore this one
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 12, 2021, 05:41:57 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

The Glass Prison is interesting for me. I love the first eleven minutes and the last minute, but the two minutes in between the solos and the ending vocals are an absolute drag.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 12, 2021, 08:50:53 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

I wouldn’t go that far. The Great Debate and Misunderstood are definitely worse. This is actually going to lead into maybe my most controversial opinion:

I don’t get the love for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the album). It’s a great album don’t get me wrong, but certainly not top four. Blind Faith, Disappear, and the title track are all good enough to keep it in the top half of their discography, but The Glass Prison is overrated, Misunderstood is good but that ending is horrendous, and The Great Debate is one of the band’s worst songs. And while we’re at it, Awake is kind of overrated as well. I have both albums as my number 6 and 7 ranked Dream Theater records, and I’ll take Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events over both of them any day.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 08:54:12 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 12, 2021, 08:50:53 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.



I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

I wouldn’t go that far. The Great Debate and Misunderstood are definitely worse. This is actually going to lead into maybe my most controversial opinion:

I don’t get the love for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the album). It’s a great album don’t get me wrong, but certainly not top four. Blind Faith, Disappear, and the title track are all good enough to keep it in the top half of their discography, but The Glass Prison is overrated, Misunderstood is good but that ending is horrendous, and The Great Debate is one of the band’s worst songs. And while we’re at it, Awake is kind of overrated as well. I have both albums as my number 6 and 7 ranked Dream Theater records, and I’ll take Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events over both of them any day.

A persons taste is a crazy thing… ADTOE and Octavarium are two of my least favorite DT albums and SDOIT is my third favorite but I consider to be in the “big 3” with scenes and images.

I like awake but it has some clunkers… awake is top 5 for me.

I don’t really understand the hate for the Great Debate unless it’s a lyrical dislike… I think the mid section of that song is awesome.  James sounds amazing and the solo kicks ass.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 12, 2021, 09:06:53 AM
I love The Great Debate. It was one of my first favorite discoveries after my initial finding of Dream Theater. I love it to this day. It has all the elements I love about DT. An interesting topic and lyrics, metal, varied vocals, all of it. It is my favorite song on the album. Of course the song Six degrees is up there, but I have to be in the right mood or it will make me cry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 12, 2021, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

Well, but I love This Dying Soul though. It’s way more interesting than TGP.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 09:40:32 AM
Quote from: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 04:51:29 AM
I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

That is true, the nature of their metallic elements has certainly changed. Still, people complained about them sounding too much like Metallica at points on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, so I don't think faithfulness to their influences was lost there either. I don't really think there has been any album where the degree of modern metal has been absolutely overwhelming either (other ToT maybe), though I guess my tastes lean in that direction anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 AM
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DTA on June 12, 2021, 10:49:22 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 AM
I thought Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

Definitely agree with this. Two albums at most should've seen it completed, with each part being significantly edited to avoid some of the excess repetition. I know MP needed to make sure each song was long enough to justify including all 12 steps and give them adequate time, but it just created a series of subpar songs imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 12, 2021, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 AM
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

When they released Six Degrees I thought "what a fucking idea!"

At Octavarium I was already thinking "It seemed like a better idea of what it really was".

At BC&SL: "Someone get this shit out of my way."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 12, 2021, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

Way to ruin The Great Debate for me.  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 12, 2021, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

...or Tuukka Rask..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:40:09 PM
Quote from: Stadler on June 12, 2021, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

Way to ruin The Great Debate for me.  :) :) :)

I'd be lying if the "Bill is gonna love this analogy" thought didn't run through my head for a moment when I was typing that.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 12, 2021, 01:54:46 PM
I agree The Great Debate lacks a certain something. I don’t mind it, it has a cool guitar solo, the drumming is pretty cool. Lyrics are a little iffy, as is the chorus. It’s probably the third best song on disc one for me (after Blind Faith and Misunderstood).

The one whose popularity I don’t quite understand is Disappear. Felt like a failed attempt to re-write Space Dye Vest in the vein of Radiohead.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on June 12, 2021, 01:58:09 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 11, 2021, 10:49:14 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 09, 2021, 04:40:39 AM
They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

...Or because the members (John Petrucci in particular) generally like metal quite a bit. Not sure why there has to be a ulterior motive to it. Just because you prefer their sound one way, doesn't mean the band are deliberately trying to compromise it when they go in a different direction.

Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound. Part of the reason I ever got into the band was because of their heavier songs, but I stuck around because of how diverse their catalog was (is), compared to recent efforts. The Astonishing had the right idea but I didn't care for the execution overall, nor the long-winded length of it all.

I think this is a good point. I'd like to hear them do a less guitar-centered album but given how Petrucci is pretty much the main attraction of the band I doubt it would happen.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 12, 2021, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

It is analysis like this that keeps me coming back to this forum after all these years.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 12, 2021, 02:47:43 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I think every song on Images and Words sounds horribly dated...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 12, 2021, 04:00:35 PM
Tastes are indeed crazy. SDOIT is my favourite DT album, lol.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 04:07:01 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on June 12, 2021, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 AM
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

When they released Six Degrees I thought "what a fucking idea!"

At Octavarium I was already thinking "It seemed like a better idea of what it really was".

At BC&SL: "Someone get this shit out of my way."

Exactly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 04:07:28 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 12, 2021, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

Well, but I love This Dying Soul though. It’s way more interesting than TGP.

Nobody’s perfect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 12, 2021, 11:44:39 PM
Quote from: lovethedrake on June 12, 2021, 04:51:29 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

I don’t think Dream Theater adapting their sound to stay with the times means that they don’t have integrity…. It means they are smart businessmen who have figured out a way to still make great music while not becoming “that old band from the 90’s”.   

To me so much of it has to do with production… Im a prog guy and an 80’s metal guy but find D/T to have the warmest production in many years.  Whereas SC has a thin, stale, metallic production.  I never listen to ITPOE because I hate how it sounds…however that song is amazing live when free from its stale production.

Plus on D/T they were bringing back some of that 80’s vibe with songs like Out of Reach, Viper King and Fall Into the Light (especially mid section).  So despite me being a prog/80’s metal guy I really like D/T.

The TOT-ADTOE run just didn’t have that vibe at all IMO.

The over-reliance on their current metal sound as of late is the issue I have. They obviously still have diverse things going on still within their albums. They transcended genre so much in the past, that it's hard to see that DT, a band of virtuosos who know how to write music well, have become a bit "formulaic"

TOT is an interesting one to bring up, as the reason it was so controversial at the time of its release is because it was the first DT album where (pretty much) all the songs were metal, meaning that wasn't a thing before. Leading up to that they had a few tracks that were heavier than their usual fare, but it didn't dominate the album. TOT was cool because it was something different than before, and the style of metal they did there is different than what they did after. Later albums don't really have that groove, nu-metal, and angst-filled riffage of TOT; later stuff is darker, with more chugga chugga riffs. After Octavarium, their sound evolved into incorporating a certain metal tone in the overall sound and mood of the album. As I said, for all its lighter moments, The Astonishing is included in this debate.

This is why ADTOE is the best of the Mangini era, as it toned down the metal a little that was growing on the previous 2 albums (Yes, last 2 songs on BC&SL tone down the metal as well, but the previous 4 tracks were all just heavy af (or a metal ballad)) and I like some of the heavier riffs on ADTOE, but I will admit I like the metal sound DT had until the 2010s, and a lot of that comes from the drummer. To me MM doesn't provide the depth and fullness in his sound to make the band sound sufficiently heavy like MP was able to do. This is confirmed on ADTOE because that is the studio album closest to MM sounding like he's playing a real drum set. LTE3 also confirmed this, JP's heavy riffs have more body with MP behind him again, than anything with Mangini. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 13, 2021, 03:44:40 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 12, 2021, 11:44:39 PM
The over-reliance on their current metal sound as of late is the issue I have. They obviously still have diverse things going on still within their albums. They transcended genre so much in the past, that it's hard to see that DT, a band of virtuosos who know how to write music well, have become a bit "formulaic"

I will grant that most of the modern albums are less eclectic than something like I&W, FII or SDoIT. However, this sort of expand-contract musical evolution of stylistic diversity I think is probably more common than you'd imagine. It's a process of establishing their sound, exploring its limits, establishing a balance and a new stylistic centre, then refining that to suit what they want to achieve musically. This cycle has happened with bands like Rush, Metallica, Black Sabbath, Queensryche, Deep Purple etc. They also may very well simply feel like the songs they write are generally less malleable to eclectic experimentation and highly contrasting styles. This of course doesn't stop stuff like the raw jazz fusion style solos in S2N and StR, the exotic piano comping in UA and LNF, the funky guitar interlude in BAI, the jazzy piano flourish or the entire orchestral section in IT, the Morricone esque build in FItL or... just TA in general. The fact that these often don't feel like heavily contrasting moments is probably a testament to how smoothly they're integrated into the sound.

Quote from: darkshade on June 12, 2021, 11:44:39 PM
TOT is an interesting one to bring up, as the reason it was so controversial at the time of its release is because it was the first DT album where (pretty much) all the songs were metal, meaning that wasn't a thing before. Leading up to that they had a few tracks that were heavier than their usual fare, but it didn't dominate the album. TOT was cool because it was something different than before, and the style of metal they did there is different than what they did after. Later albums don't really have that groove, nu-metal, and angst-filled riffage of TOT; later stuff is darker, with more chugga chugga riffs. After Octavarium, their sound evolved into incorporating a certain metal tone in the overall sound and mood of the album. As I said, for all its lighter moments, The Astonishing is included in this debate.

I mean, the heavier moments (at least in large part) on TA are arguably more textural than anything else, so I really don't know if it can be included. Only about 5-7 of its 34 tracks would kind of fit the bill. Is simply having that modern metal sound enough to draw ire? I also don't know if I'd call most of the riffing in these albums otherwise all that dark. Stuff like The Enemy Inside, Untethered Angel, My Last Farewell, Room 137 and Paralysed, sure. Fall Into the Light, S2N, The Looking Glass, Moment of Betrayal and Behind the Veil (again, in spite of the tuning, it's got that early 90s Megadeth esque groove) I'm less sure about. In my view, 4/9 songs on DT12 fit your description and 5/9 from D/T. I'd hardly call that overwhelming, even if the latter is the majority.

Quote from: darkshade on June 12, 2021, 11:44:39 PM
(Yes, last 2 songs on BC&SL tone down the metal as well, but the previous 4 tracks were all just heavy af (or a metal ballad))

Neglecting to mention that those two songs total over half an hour in length. I also think including Wither as a metal ballad is... a bit of a stretch, not to mention that the Beautiful Agony part of ANtR is such a prominent part of the track (it's pretty much a full song within a song) that I feel like it also merits inclusion in the overall balance. As for the rest of the paragraph, I guess that is a matter of opinion. The thing is, I don't view the MM era as going for the same kind of thing in this regard, generally more going for a sort of layered, dramatic vibe (hence why a lot of it is textured with melodic keyboard parts) over visceral sonic impact when it comes to a lot of these metallic sections. Constant Motion might hit harder than The Enemy Inside on balance, but the latter feels more tragic. I personally quite like both approaches, with the respective drummers suiting each tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 13, 2021, 06:40:41 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on June 12, 2021, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

It is analysis like this that keeps me coming back to this forum after all these years.

 :tup :tup
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 07:58:12 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

In the context of the song and lyrics. Remember the "Inspiration" corner. The Great Debate is obviously the Tool inspiration. Now to be influenced by tool, the lyrical subject needs to be insightful, as all Tool lyrics are insightful and spiritual.

What was in the news at that time was the Stem Cell Debate. And having The Tool inspired music have lyrics dealing with this real world topic, is insightful.

I actually like how the lyrics don't take a side and present both aspects of the debate. And how they panned the views on both the left and right.

This song in it's context is not meant to be an epic song or a memorable one. It's an insightful song. The music fits the lyrics in it gives off an unsettling vibe. Kind of like seeing a dark, stormy cloud approaching, this is the intro and the outro. While the song itself is the storm.

I understand why people don't like this song. But in the context of the music, the lyrics, and especially the influence, it's a really great song.

Pale Blue Dot, is the same type of song, with regards to its context, and lyrical content.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 12, 2021, 01:54:46 PM
I agree The Great Debate lacks a certain something. I don’t mind it, it has a cool guitar solo, the drumming is pretty cool. Lyrics are a little iffy, as is the chorus. It’s probably the third best song on disc one for me (after Blind Faith and Misunderstood).

The one whose popularity I don’t quite understand is Disappear. Felt like a failed attempt to re-write Space Dye Vest in the vein of Radiohead.

Disappear is a great song. It captures that mood of despair, and hopelessness. That mood of there's nothing you can do, and you have to accept it.

In this context, the music is slow and heartfelt, and somber. As the person in the lyrics has to deal with accepting the death of a loved one.

And the circus part of the keys fits really well with the lyrics "my whole world has been changed" as that, to me, signifies how life is crazy and seems like a circus when your entire world is changing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

You forgot the best part of that lyric stanza. "I knew you were scared"

That part of the song I actually listen to JLBs soft, spoken, background vocals as I feel that style best represents that sad, somber mood. And the higher, more powerful, lead vocals is the more desperate and accepting mood and tone.


I really love Disappear because it really showcases that mood and feeling of somberness at seeing a loved one slowly dying and then having to accept their death. This is what the song is describing and it's what I believe it's trying to convey.

The lyrics are just JLBs way of putting that feeling in words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 13, 2021, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

You forgot the best part of that lyric stanza. "I knew you were scared"

That part of the song I actually listen to JLBs soft, spoken, background vocals as I feel that style best represents that sad, somber mood. And the higher, more powerful, lead vocals is the more desperate and accepting mood and tone.


I really love Disappear because it really showcases that mood and feeling of somberness at seeing a loved one slowly dying and then having to accept their death. This is what the song is describing and it's what I believe it's trying to convey.

The lyrics are just JLBs way of putting that feeling in words.

Ok, I definitely see how it works from that perspective. Certainly didn’t mean to be dismissive of the subject matter. Musically it’s not one I really enjoy listening too, but I can appreciate that perspective.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 02:37:29 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 13, 2021, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 13, 2021, 08:23:33 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

You forgot the best part of that lyric stanza. "I knew you were scared"

That part of the song I actually listen to JLBs soft, spoken, background vocals as I feel that style best represents that sad, somber mood. And the higher, more powerful, lead vocals is the more desperate and accepting mood and tone.


I really love Disappear because it really showcases that mood and feeling of somberness at seeing a loved one slowly dying and then having to accept their death. This is what the song is describing and it's what I believe it's trying to convey.

The lyrics are just JLBs way of putting that feeling in words.

Ok, I definitely see how it works from that perspective. Certainly didn’t mean to be dismissive of the subject matter. Musically it’s not one I really enjoy listening too, but I can appreciate that perspective.

Yeah, I understand.

I find it fascinating how people listen to music. As people listen a different way, like listening for musicality vs. listening because it makes you feel a certain mood and way.

I myself can enjoy songs more when I analyze them. When I understand the context in why the song has that certain tone, why a song has that certain chord progression there. Why the musician decided to go this way instead of that way, even if it sounds jarring. A true composer has purpose for why the songs are the way they are. A true Lyricist can take those tones, atmosphere, and chord progressions and put it into words, usually the best way is through stories. Understanding the context of a song helps me appreciate when a composer/musician/artist goes a certain direction, like Steven Wilson did with The Future Bites and Dream Theater with The Astonishing, or a drastic change of direction like Opeths current sound.

I guess I listen to music differently than most people do. Maybe that's why I enjoy the songs I do and the bands I do, which at times tend to be the ones that are considered the worst from the album.  :lol

It's also why I can enjoy songs from mostly any genre, because each genre has a purpose for why it sounds the way it does. And certain genres actually complement each other, where a song could be made in either genre, like reggae and country.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 14, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM
Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

Well, I'm the poster boy for that argument, so I am with you. HOWEVER, it cannot be denied that the perception was that metal was a marketable avenue.  I remember several articles/interviews around the time of Amob's first album where Mike and Marlene (in particular; I'm pretty sure I remember a rare but substantive post by her over at mp.com defending the direction of that band along these lines) noted the wide popularity of metal, and even cited bands like Disturbed ,whose first three records were all MULTI-platinum.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 14, 2021, 08:31:13 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 14, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM
Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

Well, I'm the poster boy for that argument, so I am with you. HOWEVER, it cannot be denied that the perception was that metal was a marketable avenue.  I remember several articles/interviews around the time of Amob's first album where Mike and Marlene (in particular; I'm pretty sure I remember a rare but substantive post by her over at mp.com defending the direction of that band along these lines) noted the wide popularity of metal, and even cited bands like Disturbed ,whose first three records were all MULTI-platinum.

There are VERY few bands that have not adopted their sound to the modern landscape.  Look at all the amazing bands from the 70's like Yes, Genesis, etc....  those bands all started churning out 80's sounding albums when the 80's hit.

I personally prefer DT to stay proggy and not resort to modern metal... but they never gave us a less than inspired effort whether you like the direction they went in or not.  You can always count on a huge exciting release from DT and going more modern doesn't mean they don't have integrity, it just means they are smart business men.  The only time I can possible blame them for hamming it in a bit is "octavarium" and that album is some of the fans favorite so I'm sure those fans don't see it that way. 

I love that DT always gives an inspired effort even if the musical direction they took post SDOIT is not my favorite.  I think they are back on track for my personal tastes though starting with the self titled album.  Excited for the new one!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 14, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.


what
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 14, 2021, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: Stadler on June 14, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Well, I'm the poster boy for that argument, so I am with you. HOWEVER, it cannot be denied that the perception was that metal was a marketable avenue.  I remember several articles/interviews around the time of Amob's first album where Mike and Marlene (in particular; I'm pretty sure I remember a rare but substantive post by her over at mp.com defending the direction of that band along these lines) noted the wide popularity of metal, and even cited bands like Disturbed ,whose first three records were all MULTI-platinum.

While that's true, I do also think there's a difference between adapting in a way that's simply trend-hopping for monetary gain and organically integrating modern elements into their sound due to genuine interest. However, assuming that a change in sound would be driven by either feels like the terms filler or pretentious in that it sort of assumes the thoughts of the artist when that's often not really possible, unless through direct quotes that confirm those suspicions. The thing is... if we go by that, the most creatively compromised strech in the band's discography is everything from I&W to FII. Sure, we can make the argument that many of those compromises and label nudges may have resulted in a product that was more appealing, but those changes were still primarily commercially driven from the label's position. From what I can tell, they don't appear to have admitted to any later larger-scale adjustments for commercial gain. The closest things are stuff like the growls being removed from ANTR because John didn't think the fans would like it and the label suggesting the band to move TEI from a mid album track to the one following FAS. Maybe I'm wrong and have missed a few notable instances, but I guess my point is that given that many of the band's most celebrated output is technically highly commercially driven (or I guess, tampered with for the purposes of commerical appeal), I don't think relevant to assume it as a pejorative and assuming it without evidence (which could be something like "we wanted to appeal to a new audience") tends to feel like an unnecessarily cheap shot to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 14, 2021, 12:49:11 PM
Enigmachine has a point here. Dream Theater have always been clinically unable to separate themselves from the sounds that they like and the music that is in their head, to the point where some of their songs sounded like homages. Even when they decide to do something consciously, it's a spur of the moment thing that they just build on until it's a whole concept, and so far they have been honest every time they said "we wanted to go heavy because we were in a heavy mood" or "we wanted to go proggy because we were in a proggy mood". I know it's kind of unusual to see people going heavier as they get older, but that's clearly what's in JP's head and there's no evidence that anyone tampered with that of the kind that is all over the band's history in the early days.

The "good businessman" sense that the band always had was to recognize DT has always been part prog and part metal, and they play the prog they like and the metal they like, except that the prog people in the audience have less tolerance for the kind of metal they like nowadays. But you can't make bucketloads of money selling DT's version of that kind of metal to the people who buy the real thing either, and I don't think that's what the band is going for. They're going for expanding to people who are already primed to like their music but just haven't heard of them yet, and they're going for selling more things to people who already bought into the main thing - you saw DT once, but have you seen them play this album in full? Or half of that album and half of another one? And how about a book to go with your concept album? And how about a new kind of live release? Et cetera.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 14, 2021, 01:06:42 PM
Agreed to all of that.  I guess we're sort of saying the same thing from different directions.  Or if not, I guess I'm saying that I'm more flexible and accommodating on artists' wishes.  I'm not as hung up on an artist taking advice from a label, for example, or even writing a song for a purposes (i.e., an anthem, or a single).   It's still the artist's choices that go into it, and there are too many examples - Paranoid, for one - where songs that SEEM "compromised", whether because they were "hits" or they seem dashed off or they seem contrived, and yet they stand the test of time.

I know I bring him up all the time, but Springsteen is an example here: "Blinded By The Light" was an exercise for him, and yet it's one of his most enduring songs (and his only Billboard No.1, though not by him). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 14, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.


what





No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 14, 2021, 01:48:09 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs1Cn2c4/tenor-16.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 14, 2021, 01:58:25 PM
This is the controversial opinions thread. It's contained. God help us if it gets out
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 14, 2021, 02:12:31 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 14, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.


what





No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

 :lol

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 15, 2021, 09:33:44 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 14, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.


what





No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.





































































































what
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MirrorMask on June 15, 2021, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

Actually it's an imaginary story. He saw a happy couple in an airport and imagined what would happen if a sudden tragedy would come out of nowhere.

I was surprised too to find out, with lyrics so deep and poignant, no way they weren't personal.... but yeah, they weren't. He came up with the story, it's not about his dealings with a personal loss in the family.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:35:52 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 15, 2021, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

Actually it's an imaginary story. He saw a happy couple in an airport and imagined what would happen if a sudden tragedy would come out of nowhere.

I was surprised too to find out, with lyrics so deep and poignant, no way they weren't personal.... but yeah, they weren't. He came up with the story, it's not about his dealings with a personal loss in the family.

James writing is so very introspective.  It's relatable and understandable. The more poetic stuff - like from JM is harder for me to get. I even asked JM when I met him about the meaning of the lyrics to S2N. I still don't completely understand..(of course it was hard to hear every word he said... :smiley:)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 15, 2021, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:35:52 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 15, 2021, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

Actually it's an imaginary story. He saw a happy couple in an airport and imagined what would happen if a sudden tragedy would come out of nowhere.

I was surprised too to find out, with lyrics so deep and poignant, no way they weren't personal.... but yeah, they weren't. He came up with the story, it's not about his dealings with a personal loss in the family.

James writing is so very introspective.  It's relatable and understandable. The more poetic stuff - like from JM is harder for me to get. I even asked JM when I met him about the meaning of the lyrics to S2N. I still don't completely understand..(of course it was hard to hear every word he said... :smiley:)

I don't say it much, because I'm not big on bagging on people and their taste, but since it's the thread for it, I scratch my head at the deference paid to JM's lyrics.  They're not bad, mind you, but I don't get the hype.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 15, 2021, 02:51:10 PM
In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 15, 2021, 04:49:27 PM
IMO, James is the best lyricist in the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MoraWintersoul on June 15, 2021, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Stadler on June 15, 2021, 02:29:40 PM
I don't say it much, because I'm not big on bagging on people and their taste, but since it's the thread for it, I scratch my head at the deference paid to JM's lyrics.
You were outdone by someone previously on the thread (I'm sorry I can't remember who it was!) saying he sounds like a Facebook quote most of the time :sadpanda:

Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 15, 2021, 04:49:27 PM
IMO, James is the best lyricist in the band.
That's not that much of a controversial opinion recently. The real question is, if he had to produce as many lyrics as JP, would he have had as many misses? I think probably yes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 15, 2021, 05:50:44 PM
JP had some really great lyrics up through FII. The whole band kind of forgot how to write thereafter.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 15, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 15, 2021, 04:49:27 PM
IMO, James is the best lyricist in the band.

I don't think that's a controversial opinion.

Something about The Glass Prison not aging well, however, makes me wonder about 'wrong' opinions and trolling.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 15, 2021, 06:47:59 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 05:50:44 PM
JP had some really great lyrics up through FII. The whole band kind of forgot how to write thereafter.

They changed their format, write the music first, add lyrics later, which I don't think they always did prior.
Moore left, JM stopped writing for a while, JLB only add an occasional lyric, and JP and MP were never great writers to begin with.
So I'm not sure "forgot" is the right word.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 15, 2021, 06:55:00 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM

No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I can't agree, but on the other hand, I don't rate the song as nearly as high as I did for a long time. I considered it a top 20 DT song for a long time, but not sure where I'd put it now. I haven't had done a DT top 50, but it would not be a no-brainer to make it.  I still like it a lot, but for me, it is fairer to say that a lot of songs have simply aged better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on June 15, 2021, 07:42:16 PM
JP is a great lyricist. How can you possibly lump him in with MP?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 15, 2021, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 15, 2021, 06:55:00 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM

No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I can't agree, but on the other hand, I don't rate the song as nearly as high as I did for a long time. I considered it a top 20 DT song for a long time, but not sure where I'd put it now. I haven't had done a DT top 50, but it would not be a no-brainer to make it.  I still like it a lot, but for me, it is fairer to say that a lot of songs have simply aged better.

So yeah, that's in line with what I'm saying. If I take how I felt about it then, and how I feel about it now, it's taken the deepest dive. There's plenty of worse songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  :))
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 15, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 15, 2021, 06:47:59 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 05:50:44 PM
JP had some really great lyrics up through FII. The whole band kind of forgot how to write thereafter.

They changed their format, write the music first, add lyrics later, which I don't think they always did prior.
Moore left, JM stopped writing for a while, JLB only add an occasional lyric, and JP and MP were never great writers to begin with.
So I'm not sure "forgot" is the right word.

At least to some extent they used to demo songs in the early days. Then once Jordan joined the band they banged out the music LTE style and then figured out some words to put over it (I think they did this before Jordan too, but after he joined they seemed to put an emphasis on writing everything in the studio with the music first and the words coming last). A lot bands do this (Rush, Marillion), I just don't think it worked so well for DT.

JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 15, 2021, 11:12:52 PM
I listened to TBOT again the other day and I think the only interesting parts in the song are the intro and THAT solo :hefdaddy
Other than that, the rest feels like it's too long and just not too enjoyable. The lyrics don't help either.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 15, 2021, 11:37:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 15, 2021, 11:12:52 PM
I listened to TBOT again the other day and I think the only interesting parts in the song are the intro and THAT solo :hefdaddy
Other than that, the rest feels like it's too long and just not too enjoyable. The lyrics don't help either.

Musically, it's a great song. I think the lyrics suffer at the end, starting from "The fleeting wings of time..." because of the repetitive use of the "ay" rhyme. It's used 11 times just in that part alone. I don't mind the lyrics before that section because they're really interpersonal for MP, and describe those cherished memories he has of the times he spent with his father.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on June 16, 2021, 12:11:49 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on June 15, 2021, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: DoctorAction on June 13, 2021, 08:18:13 AM
So I'm moving on
I'll never forget
As you lay there and watched me
Accepting the end
You were strong, I was trying

It's about James' mother's death, I believe. I lost my mother a few years ago and this song moves me greatly. Perfect words. Perfect song.

Actually it's an imaginary story. He saw a happy couple in an airport and imagined what would happen if a sudden tragedy would come out of nowhere.

I was surprised too to find out, with lyrics so deep and poignant, no way they weren't personal.... but yeah, they weren't. He came up with the story, it's not about his dealings with a personal loss in the family.

Wow. I must have just assumed rather than read. Thanks for the info.

He is the best lyricist in the band, imo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 16, 2021, 12:13:01 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 15, 2021, 06:47:59 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 05:50:44 PM
JP had some really great lyrics up through FII. The whole band kind of forgot how to write thereafter.
They changed their format, write the music first, add lyrics later, which I don't think they always did prior.
Moore left, JM stopped writing for a while, JLB only add an occasional lyric, and JP and MP were never great writers to begin with.
So I'm not sure "forgot" is the right word.
At least to some extent they used to demo songs in the early days. Then once Jordan joined the band they banged out the music LTE style and then figured out some words to put over it (I think they did this before Jordan too, but after he joined they seemed to put an emphasis on writing everything in the studio with the music first and the words coming last). A lot bands do this (Rush, Marillion), I just don't think it worked so well for DT.
I don't think things changed that much. The music was *always* written first and the lyrics *always* came later. Some songs were written musically early on, but lyrics were written much later, so the songs weren't considered "complete" until that point. That's why you have instrumental demos included on the Ytsejam Records releases of the WDaDU, IaW and ToT demos. If I'm not mistaken, Lines in the Sand is an example of this. And in fact, the original Metropolis part II as well, since the lyrics were never completed.

Even after they shifted gears when JR joined, I don't think things really changed. I specifically recall that the band used the summers of 2001 and 2003 to write the lyrics for SDoIT and ToT, respectively. And in both cases, the band were on the road (well, in 2001, JP and MP were on the road for the first G3 tour that JP was a part of).
 
 
Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.
Metropolis part I might be nonsensical, but I don't get why you say that about IF. It's fairly well documented that IF is JP's commentary on the breakdown of friendship, largely driven by the breakdown of his friendship with KM who was a childhood friend.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kyo on June 16, 2021, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows.

Is it the high quality that turns you off?  :P


Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 16, 2021, 12:13:01 AM
I don't think things changed that much. The music was *always* written first and the lyrics *always* came later. Some songs were written musically early on, but lyrics were written much later, so the songs weren't considered "complete" until that point. That's why you have instrumental demos included on the Ytsejam Records releases of the WDaDU, IaW and ToT demos. If I'm not mistaken, Lines in the Sand is an example of this. And in fact, the original Metropolis part II as well, since the lyrics were never completed.

Even after they shifted gears when JR joined, I don't think things really changed. I specifically recall that the band used the summers of 2001 and 2003 to write the lyrics for SDoIT and ToT, respectively. And in both cases, the band were on the road (well, in 2001, JP and MP were on the road for the first G3 tour that JP was a part of).

One underappreciated aspect of this is how the context of writing lyrics after the fact changed. A while back, I put together a list of average DT song lengths per album:

When Dream and Day Unite: 6:26
Images & Words: 7:08
Awake: 6:49
Falling into Infinity: 7:07
Scenes from a Memory: 6:25
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 16:02 (Disc 1 only: 10:51)
Train of Thought: 9:54
Octavarium: 9:28
Systematic Chaos: 9:50
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 12:34
A Dramatic Turn of Events: 8:33
Dream Theater: 7:33
The Astonishing: 3:51 (4:20 without the NOMAC tracks)

So after SfaM, the songs became a LOT longer until MP quit. Which I think is important - a lyric added to a song that follows a standard verse/chorus structure, even if it's expanded with a lengthy intro and an instrumental section, will be much easier to get to "work" in terms of lyrical content matching the ebb and flow and the mood(s) of the music. The longer songs tend to have a lot more deviation from that format and usually one would expect the music to follow a development within the lyrics. But with later DT, there have been many cases where that link became murkier. So them not laying out a basic structure for the story they want to tell before writing the music was becoming a bigger and bigger problem, with Black Clouds ending up an extreme case that also caught the most criticism for the resulting disconnect between music and lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 16, 2021, 02:58:45 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on June 15, 2021, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: Stadler on June 15, 2021, 02:29:40 PM
I don't say it much, because I'm not big on bagging on people and their taste, but since it's the thread for it, I scratch my head at the deference paid to JM's lyrics.
You were outdone by someone previously on the thread (I'm sorry I can't remember who it was!) saying he sounds like a Facebook quote most of the time :sadpanda:

That was Kotowboy ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on June 15, 2021, 02:51:10 PM
In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee!  :)

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 06:52:11 AM
Quote from: Kyo on June 16, 2021, 12:34:41 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows.

Is it the high quality that turns you off?  :P


HAHAHA, that got a laugh out loud.

And for the record, I did NOT read your post before I wrote what I did about song lengths.  I wasn't referring to you, but something else in the past.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 07:27:52 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 16, 2021, 12:13:01 AM

Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.
Metropolis part I might be nonsensical, but I don't get why you say that about IF. It's fairly well documented that IF is JP's commentary on the breakdown of friendship, largely driven by the breakdown of his friendship with KM who was a childhood friend.

I actually really like the wordplay and imagery in Innocence Faded, and I have heard that explanation before, but it’s very Jon Andersonish in places:

Animation
Breathes a cloudless mind
Fascination
Leaves the doubting blind
Until the circle breaks
And wisdom lies ahead
The faithful live awake
The rest remain misled

Or:

Beyond the circle's edge
We're driven by her blessings
Forever hesitating
Caught beneath the wheel

Those are nice lines, but even knowing what the song is about they are a bit of a head scratcher.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 16, 2021, 07:40:31 AM
As far as lyricists go, for my money, James is by far the most consistent.

That being said, his output is much less than MP and JP.

For MP and JP, they each have cringe-worthy moments, and each have written some gems ('Lines in the Sand' immediately comes to mind as a watershed, perfect lyrical moment).

JM...what can I say? I mean, I dig 'Learning to Live' and 'Breaking all Illusions,' but if I were ranking DT songs in terms of lyrics (which seems kinda silly, I know, but go with me here), I'm not sure JM makes it into my top-10.

James—with songs like 'Disappear,' 'Blind Faith,' 'At Wits End'—is definitely going to be up there at the top with a disproportionate amount of entires.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 16, 2021, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:51:34 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on June 16, 2021, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.
For me, the answer is obvious.  His voice is terrible.  Fantastic songwriter, horrible singer.  I can't listen to him. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 08:12:09 AM
As far as James’ lyrics, I think Anna Lee has a really strong lyric. Speak To Me is another.

I’m not sure his solo albums bear James out to be an especially great lyricist, but I do wonder if the overall songwriting in the band would have been strengthened by the singer being more involved with the lyrics and melodies from the start of the writing process. I know James has had some input in terms of if there was something he didn’t feel comfortable singing, and he probably gets to do some work on the melodies themselves, but the band always seemed to keep him at arm’s length when it came to the writing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 16, 2021, 08:19:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:51:34 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on June 16, 2021, 07:50:29 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
None of them are Dylan.

KM, JP, JM, and JLB have all written very good lyrics.  KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

The majority of MP's lyrics were just kind of there.  None of them were fantastic, and some of them were pretty bad.

Man, if there's one artist I've really taken an appreciation to in recent years, it's Dylan. I've been listening to his records pretty much non-stop for the past three or four years. Not sure why I slept on him for so long, but man oh man could that man turn a phrase.
For me, the answer is obvious.  His voice is terrible.  Fantastic songwriter, horrible singer.  I can't listen to him.

Hef, same for me as well. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 16, 2021, 08:35:18 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on June 15, 2021, 11:37:19 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 15, 2021, 11:12:52 PM
I listened to TBOT again the other day and I think the only interesting parts in the song are the intro and THAT solo :hefdaddy
Other than that, the rest feels like it's too long and just not too enjoyable. The lyrics don't help either.

Musically, it's a great song. I think the lyrics suffer at the end, starting from "The fleeting wings of time..." because of the repetitive use of the "ay" rhyme. It's used 11 times just in that part alone. I don't mind the lyrics before that section because they're really interpersonal for MP, and describe those cherished memories he has of the times he spent with his father.

That's the part where I go "the song just completely died" and stays dead until the solo :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

https://variety.com/lists/bob-dylan-80-best-greatest-cover-songs/the-byrds-mr-tambourine-man-best-bob-dylan-covers/

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on June 16, 2021, 08:35:51 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

Like a Rolling Stone maybe?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYokc3VBC4
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

https://variety.com/lists/bob-dylan-80-best-greatest-cover-songs/the-byrds-mr-tambourine-man-best-bob-dylan-covers/




Perfect, Hef. I'll check it out!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 08:46:30 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

All Along the Watchtower? Not written for other artists but probably more famous for Hendrix's version.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 16, 2021, 08:48:23 AM
To be honest, I'm not really sure the style of lyric writing that Dylan has would be that well suited to the kind of music that DT generally make.

Quote from: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee!  :)

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid).

I think both of these things have to do with a preference for what generally comes with both JM's lyrics and longer songs. For the former, it'd be a more poetic angle with generally much more abstract and colourful wordplay than what JP tends to use. As for longer songs, it usually makes for a structure with more twists and turns as well as things like further development of musical themes and a wider dynamic contrast. I can definitely understand the excitement for both aspects, even if I'm not always necessarily in the mood for them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 16, 2021, 09:06:17 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on June 15, 2021, 02:51:10 PM
In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.


And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee!  :)

It's one thing to like what an artist does, I get that.  And that's why I wrote it the way I wrote it; to each their own.  I can, though, say I don't understand it.  For me, if I like a lyric by the band, with one exception - KevMo - there's no correlation with "who wrote it".  They've all written lyrics I like, and they've all written lyrics I'd guess came from a bathroom stall (again, I kid).

Yeah....but especially around here people can be effusive about anything. News comes out of Neal Morse's new collaboration with Mike Portnoy and people celebrate as if they've been waiting 10 years since the last one (and as if in 2022 there won't be another one).  :lol

But I insist... In general, even here JM is not regarded as a master lyricist. People just think he's a better lyricist than the average for DT. And they are absolutely correct.  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DoctorAction on June 16, 2021, 09:16:06 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 07:27:52 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 16, 2021, 12:13:01 AM

Quote from: HOF on June 15, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
JP always had some nonsensical lyrics like Metropolis pt. 1 and Innocence Faded, but then he had some really great songs like Voices, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, and Take Away My Pain. I also think Hollow Years has a strong lyric.
Metropolis part I might be nonsensical, but I don't get why you say that about IF. It's fairly well documented that IF is JP's commentary on the breakdown of friendship, largely driven by the breakdown of his friendship with KM who was a childhood friend.

I actually really like the wordplay and imagery in Innocence Faded, and I have heard that explanation before, but it’s very Jon Andersonish in places:

Animation
Breathes a cloudless mind
Fascination
Leaves the doubting blind
Until the circle breaks
And wisdom lies ahead
The faithful live awake
The rest remain misled

Or:

Beyond the circle's edge
We're driven by her blessings
Forever hesitating
Caught beneath the wheel

Those are nice lines, but even knowing what the song is about they are a bit of a head scratcher.

I have some idea on some of those lines. Abstract is fine for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:21:01 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on June 15, 2021, 02:51:10 PM
In my opinion, there is no hype at all. There's no one enjoying his lyrics like Dylan or Cohen fans do.

There's just a more common opinion that his lyrics are better in the DT context.
I agree.
But in a universe of lyrics mostly written by JP and MP (which I don't consider good lyricists even on my rare most generous days) I don't think it's so complicated to notice superior qualities in the pen of KM, JLB and JM.

At least I see it that way.

And that's the point: I don't.   While no, the general population doesn't gush at JM like Dylan and Cohen, I have personally seen conversations here that were of the "OMG!  JM is writing lyrics on this record!   Cannot wait!  OMG!  LOL!   FYI!"    Just the idea that he's writing something sends some people into conniptions; it's a similar thing to song length; "OMG! The new album has a 12:00 minute song!  It's already my favorite and I haven't even heard it!  OMG!  TMI!  FWIW!"      And this DID happen: when Mike posted the songs and times for the Flying Colors record there were more than a couple people that immediately assumed Infinite Fire and Blue Ocean would be the "best" songs on the record (hint, for me, they are not even in the top three, either of them).  Sorry, I'm still on my first coffee!  :)

Exactly.  (except that I have had my first coffee)  It's really kinda silly.

As for DT lyricists, they have all written some lyrics that I think are incredible, and some that are less so. It is pretty rare to find lyrics in DT that I actively dislike.

Since it was mentioned, I think JP is an interesting case when it comes to lyrics.  I don't see any "decline" at all in terms of "quality" (whatever that means).  But what I think can be observed quite accurately is a decline in writing in a more poetic, abstract style and moving toward a more literal, narrative style.  He has always done both.  But there is less of the former and more of the latter since the early albums.  And I think he did the former very well--at least, if you like a style that evokes images and emotions, even if the overall meaning may at times be completely obfuscated by the poetic imagery (assuming an overall meaning even exists). 

I have never been a fan overall of KevMo's lyrics.  But that said, in terms of being able to turn a phrase, he has lyrical lines that I think are brilliant.  But some of his early contributions lack maturity from a lyric-writing perspective.  And what I mean by that is, he wrote things that may read as being pretty awesome on paper, but are clearly not written with a view to how they will sound when sung by a lyricist.  LFAGA and OAMOT are poster children for this.  Some great lines in there, but way too many words for a singer to sing, and clearly not written with an ear to how they would sound as a vocal performance in the context of a song. 

JM is hit and miss.  He has some I really enjoy (LTL, S2N).  Others that leave me cold (BAI).

Same with Portnoy, although his style is obviously VERY different than JM's.  His contributions on Octavarium (the song) are pretty fantastic.  The Mirror and The Glass Prison are also a standouts for me.  Most of his lyrics are just "right down the middle" for me in that they are very effective, but do not stand out as being OVERLY outstanding or poor.  They serve the purpose of the song, and that's it (which is what most good lyrics do).  And I guess that is true of most of the DT lyricists a lot of the time:  as a whole, they rarely write lyrics that leap out as amazing, but they are almost always very effective for conveying what a given song is trying to convey.

But James is quite often an exception to the above.  His contributions, especially on this last album, quite often make me sit up and take notice as being truly exceptional.  I commented before that, from a lyrical perspective, James is the MVP of D/T, and he is to be applauded for writing some incredible lyrics on that album.

I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small.  But just as an observation, I don't care for the lyrics to Afterlife at all.  Derek's and Mangini's contributions are what I would consider "effective" as I described above. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

From that standpoint they are indeed terrible. You can hear JLB running out of breath when he sings them.

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:21:01 AM
I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small. 

Sherinian? What?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

Light Fuse and Get Away is kind of clunky too from that standpoint.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 16, 2021, 09:24:40 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 16, 2021, 08:21:01 AM
Has Dylan written any song that I would know, and by that, I mean for other artists?

All Along The Watchtower (Jimi Hendrix/U2/Dave Matthews)
Knockin' On Heaven's Door (Guns 'n' Roses; the original does not have the "dow-er-ow-er-ow-er" affectation. :))
Maggie's Farm (Rage Against The Machine)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:28:32 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on June 16, 2021, 09:06:17 AM
But I insist... In general, even here JM is not regarded as a master lyricist. People just think he's a better lyricist than the average for DT. And they are absolutely correct.  :)

As far as the "correctness" of that opinion, I firmly disagree.  I would say that, as a whole, his lyrics are on par with "average DT." 

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

Exactly.  Which is what I posted above.  And some of his lyrics, especially on Awake, lack an emotional maturity that makes them easy for me to connect with.  They strike me as something written by an angst-ridden teen in his bedroom who thinks of himself as a self-proclaimed lyrical prodigy who is compelled to write about his undying "pain and suffering," but who has never really known true pain and suffering beyond what an angst-ridden teen in a first-world country might feel.  And that's fine.  There's nothing wrong with that.  But I also personally find it to be shallow, unappealing, and something that I personally don't connect with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 09:17:16 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 16, 2021, 07:47:01 AM
KM and JP have also written some pretty bad lyrics.

Bad KM lyrics?
The example that comes to mind is Only A Matter Of Time.  Not bad from a poetic standpoint, per se, but from a meter/breathing standpoint.  So many words centered in such a small window.  I have no idea how anyone can sing it correctly.  Definitely not singer-friendly, which seems to be a good way to judge song lyrics.

Just my opinion, of course.

From that standpoint they are indeed terrible. You can hear JLB running out of breath when he sings them.

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:21:01 AM
I won't judge Dominicci, Sherinian, or Mangini, since the sample size is too small. 

Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:29:14 AM
Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

As far as I know the lyrics are all James, but I think the music was Derek's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:34:18 AM
(I already typed this before HOF posted and refuse to let it go to waste. I am the sunk cost fallacy)

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

I think from a songwriting perspective he put a lot of lift into it, but I remember not anything about the lyrics. I know he did sing backup vocals on the album.

But my DT historian abilities have atrophied.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 16, 2021, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  :))
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.

Sorry, but there are no skippable songs on Awake.  Just sayin'...


Quote from: TAC on June 14, 2021, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on June 14, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Quote from: TAC on June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.


what





No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Tim, no one can hear you unless you use CAPS.   :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:34:18 AM
(I already typed this before HOF posted and refuse to let it go to waste. I am the sunk cost fallacy)

Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
Sherinian? What?

Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

I think from a songwriting perspective he put a lot of lift into it, but I remember not anything about the lyrics. I know he did sing backup vocals on the album.

But my DT historian abilities have atrophied.
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:32:50 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:29:14 AM
Didn't he contribute to the lyrics on Anna Lee?  Or am I misremembering?  (which I could very well be)

As far as I know the lyrics are all James, but I think the music was Derek's.

OK, you guys are probably right.  It's been awhile since I looked at that, and I was just going off my (imperfect and clouded) memory.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:38:45 AM
Myung did have some outstanding lyrics before he was banned from writing them, which I think added to the legend a bit. But you would get one really great lyric for him per album before that which was kind of perfect (quality over quantity and all that). Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, and Trial of Tears are outstanding. Fatal Tragedy is largely just story/narrative and not that interesting, but the chorus is cool. I haven't heard any of his recent lyrics though.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:44:34 AM
Well, he wasn't "banned."  If anything, it was  "self-banning" because his style of just writing freeform and expecting others to make them work in a song didn't work with how JP and MP wanted to do things at the time.  He could very well have submitted lyrics with vocal melodies if he chose to.

As far as "recent" ones, you haven't heard BAI or S2N?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:44:34 AM
Well, he wasn't "banned."  If anything, it was  "self-banning" because his style of just writing freeform and expecting others to make them work in a song didn't work with how JP and MP wanted to do things at the time.  He could very well have submitted lyrics with vocal melodies if he chose to.

As far as "recent" ones, you haven't heard BAI or S2N?

It's possible I have, but I haven't given more than a casual listen to a DT album since Octavarium. Which albums are those on?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:54:51 AM
Breaking All Illusions is on A Dramatic Turn of Events, and S2N is on Distance Over Time.  Surprised you haven't listened to anything since 8VM.  The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:54:51 AM
Breaking All Illusions is on A Dramatic Turn of Events, and S2N is on Distance Over Time.  Surprised you haven't listened to anything since 8VM.  The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.

I have listened to bits and pieces of each album since then, but it's just not my thing. I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think. I only really heard whatever the lead preview track was from Distance Over Time. Octavarium was the last one where the band were still in "buy without a listen" territory for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 16, 2021, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:54:51 AM
Breaking All Illusions is on A Dramatic Turn of Events, and S2N is on Distance Over Time.  Surprised you haven't listened to anything since 8VM.  The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.

These 2 are my favorite songs off of each album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 16, 2021, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:44:34 AM
Well, he wasn't "banned."  If anything, it was  "self-banning" because his style of just writing freeform and expecting others to make them work in a song didn't work with how JP and MP wanted to do things at the time.  He could very well have submitted lyrics with vocal melodies if he chose to.

As far as "recent" ones, you haven't heard BAI or S2N?

 I haven't given more than a casual listen to a DT album since Octavarium. Which albums are those on?

................. You're really missing out
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: lovethedrake on June 16, 2021, 11:37:47 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:54:51 AM
Breaking All Illusions is on A Dramatic Turn of Events, and S2N is on Distance Over Time.  Surprised you haven't listened to anything since 8VM.  The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.

I have listened to bits and pieces of each album since then, but it's just not my thing. I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think. I only really heard whatever the lead preview track was from Distance Over Time. Octavarium was the last one where the band were still in "buy without a listen" territory for me.

I would definitely listen to At Wits End from the new album.  Thats the first song that has been in consideration for Top 10 DT songs for me since SDOIT. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 16, 2021, 06:17:55 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  :))
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.

When I was a DT noob, I thought Awake was hot garbage, and avoided listening to it again for a long time.

Now I consider it a top 3 DT album, and one of the most interesting metal albums ever created.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 16, 2021, 06:23:47 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 09:54:51 AM
The Mangini-era albums are outstanding.

**inserts controversial opinions**
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 16, 2021, 07:53:08 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 16, 2021, 06:17:55 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  :))
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.

When I was a DT noob, I thought Awake was hot garbage, and avoided listening to it again for a long time.

Now I consider it a top 3 DT album, and one of the most interesting metal albums ever created.

I agree, it is very interesting. I say it fell because it was at the top for a while, now it's not. Typically I don't skip DT songs, but the two I mentioned I just really can't get into. I may only be into DT for 5 years, but I don't feel too noob-ish. Awake just lost the blinding luster it had at the beginning.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 16, 2021, 09:14:02 PM
Through Her Eyes is one of the few songs I skip.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on June 16, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 16, 2021, 06:17:55 PM

When I was a DT noob, I thought Awake was hot garbage, and avoided listening to it again for a long time.


I wouldn't say it's hot garbage but it's certainly in my bottom three albums (in no particular order: The Astonishing, DT12, Awake).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on June 17, 2021, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 16, 2021, 06:17:55 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 15, 2021, 10:27:13 PM
What took a dive for me was the Awake album. When I delved into the discography, I discovered Awake after about 8 mos. I was loving how all their different albums just sounded, well different. Awake was cool, heavy, interesting. I played it a lot. But, there are 2 songs I skip,  Erotomania and Lifting Shadows. (A Rarity!) SDV is cool, but really not that fun to listen to often. The Mirror/Lie I enjoy more live..Scarred is just Ok. I really don't understand how Super popular it is. (Except of course, that everyone is different  :))
I did play Awake though when I hosted a pre-show show fan meet-up and, it was perfect for that.

When I was a DT noob, I thought Awake was hot garbage, and avoided listening to it again for a long time.

Now I consider it a top 3 DT album, and one of the most interesting metal albums ever created.

I had the opposite reaction. When I first discovered awake I loved the album but as time passes it's ranking falls lower and lower. I think it's production has aged worse than I&W and maybe even WDADU and the songs just don't do it anymore.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on June 17, 2021, 06:27:47 AM
For me it was instant dislike after falling in love with Images, then years of trying to warm up to it . . . but nah, I like Scarred and Lifting Shadows and don't bother much with the rest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on June 18, 2021, 09:56:01 AM
Awake was a fantastic follow up to I&W which is indicative of it's top 5 ranking among fans.  I loved it then and still do. :2metal:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nikatapi on June 19, 2021, 03:07:50 AM
Awake was a bit weird to me, but the dark atmosphere and the impeccable production make it one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape. Creative, funky, progressive, heavy, and often times just flat out ferocious. If I&W established him as a prog hero, Awake cemented him as a guitar god- easily on the same level of the Vai’s, Satriani’s and Yngwie’s of the world. Petrucci is always good, but Awake is next level; a showcase of his versatility and a treasure trove for prog metal guitarists.

The only dig on Awake, and this is probably controversial, is JLB’s overly operatic, and frankly, over bearing delivery throughout. Obviously, a powerhouse performance, but I feel like instead of turning him up to 11 throughout most of the album, dialing him back a bit would have serviced the songs better. If you’ll excuse a pro wrestling analogy, but it’s like if you’re constantly doing “high spots”, it starts losing it’s effect.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape.

If this is true, it's probably because it was the last time (or close to it) anything DT did was recorded on tape (if Awake was even recorded on tape).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 21, 2021, 02:16:09 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.

I don’t know if this is due to the guitar itself or not, but I do recall thinking JP’s tone shifted a bit when he left Ibanez for Earnie Ball (I believe SFAM was the first time he used a Music Man on an album).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 21, 2021, 02:18:57 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 21, 2021, 02:16:09 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.

I don’t know if this is due to the guitar itself or not, but I do recall thinking JP’s tone shifted a bit when he left Ibanez for Earnie Ball (I believe SFAM was the first time he used a Music Man on an album).

Almost. SFAM was still Ibanez, but he got the first few Music Man prototypes for the SFAM tour (we can see 3 of those on the Live Scenes/Metropolis 2000 album).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 21, 2021, 02:16:09 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.

I don’t know if this is due to the guitar itself or not, but I do recall thinking JP’s tone shifted a bit when he left Ibanez for Earnie Ball (I believe SFAM was the first time he used a Music Man on an album).

I've heard that argument, but Scenes and SDoIT are like the twilight of the old JP before metal overtook DT's general approach to song writing, he still had a little of that funky style here and there on those 2 albums. His tone was definitely different, though, when he switched guitar brands.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on June 21, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape.

If this is true, it's probably because it was the last time (or close to it) anything DT did was recorded on tape (if Awake was even recorded on tape).
IIRC, either James or John mentioned that they were holding on to tape for fairly long and if memory serves, Met2 was recorded to tape and you can see tape machines running during the 6D documentaries. (I may be wrong)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 21, 2021, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 21, 2021, 02:18:57 PM
Quote from: HOF on June 21, 2021, 02:16:09 PM
Quote from: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.

I don’t know if this is due to the guitar itself or not, but I do recall thinking JP’s tone shifted a bit when he left Ibanez for Earnie Ball (I believe SFAM was the first time he used a Music Man on an album).

Almost. SFAM was still Ibanez, but he got the first few Music Man prototypes for the SFAM tour (we can see 3 of those on the Live Scenes/Metropolis 2000 album).

That’s right. LSFNY is probably where I noticed the change in tone.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 21, 2021, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.

I find all Myung lyrics to be meaningless drivel.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 21, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 21, 2021, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.

I find all Myung lyrics to be meaningless drivel.

How are they meaningless?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 05:50:23 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 21, 2021, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.

I find all Myung lyrics to be meaningless drivel.

Learning to Live is meaningless?

Fatal Tragedy is meaningless?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 21, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 21, 2021, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.

I find all Myung lyrics to be meaningless drivel.

Controversial that is...agree I do not ;)

Honestly, I'm as big a 'different strokes' guy as you'll find, but this strikes me as borderline contrarian. Coming to a DT forum and posting that? You might need to show your work :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 21, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
He can't show his work for such a terrible opinion, but that is pretty normal when you consider the source.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 21, 2021, 09:46:36 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on June 21, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape.

If this is true, it's probably because it was the last time (or close to it) anything DT did was recorded on tape (if Awake was even recorded on tape).
IIRC, either James or John mentioned that they were holding on to tape for fairly long and if memory serves, Met2 was recorded to tape and you can see tape machines running during the 6D documentaries. (I may be wrong)
Been a while since I've seen those behind the scenes clips for the SDoIT tracks, but I think you're right. I know for a fact that tape was used for FII - there was a comment made about how Kevin Shirley had recorded JP's solo for HYears and thought it was just right, even though it was perhaps a bit flawed. However, by the following day, JP was convinced it wasn't good enough and insisted on re-recording it so that it was technically perfect, which required Kevin to wipe the previous take of the solo from the tape.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2021, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 21, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
He can't show his work for such a terrible opinion, but that is pretty normal when you consider the source.

that's a bit hostile, don't you think? :-\
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 21, 2021, 10:07:08 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on June 21, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape.

If this is true, it's probably because it was the last time (or close to it) anything DT did was recorded on tape (if Awake was even recorded on tape).
IIRC, either James or John mentioned that they were holding on to tape for fairly long and if memory serves, Met2 was recorded to tape and you can see tape machines running during the 6D documentaries. (I may be wrong)

I meant “tape” as an expression but maybe a poor choice of words :P

Also, I would bet real money the decision to hang onto tape for as long as possible was a Portnoy call.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 22, 2021, 02:59:42 AM
The thing is too, Myung lyrics by the standards of certain other prog bands aren't even that abstract. Even in the context of Dream Theater, Under a Glass Moon is probably more enigmatic in its meaning than Myung has done. I'm not sure which Myung song would come off as meaningless, given that there tends to be lines that almost give away the meaning by itself in each piece.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 22, 2021, 05:18:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2021, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 21, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
He can't show his work for such a terrible opinion, but that is pretty normal when you consider the source.

that's a bit hostile, don't you think? :-\

If I said it I’d get banned again. But because somebody is saying it about me it’s ok.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Max Kuehnau on June 22, 2021, 05:24:58 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 21, 2021, 10:07:08 PM
Quote from: Max Kuehnau on June 21, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 21, 2021, 01:14:46 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 20, 2021, 10:18:49 PM
Speaking as a guitarist, Awake is the best playing Petrucci has ever committed to tape.

If this is true, it's probably because it was the last time (or close to it) anything DT did was recorded on tape (if Awake was even recorded on tape).
IIRC, either James or John mentioned that they were holding on to tape for fairly long and if memory serves, Met2 was recorded to tape and you can see tape machines running during the 6D documentaries. (I may be wrong)

I meant “tape” as an expression but maybe a poor choice of words :P

Also, I would bet real money the decision to hang onto tape for as long as possible was a Portnoy call.  :lol
that is indeed possible, but I distincly (well, somewhat) remember either James or John mentioning it during the Q/A held during the D/T sessions in 2018, so that's why I indicated them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 22, 2021, 06:51:13 AM
Quote from: darkshade on June 21, 2021, 02:04:45 PM
JP's style in the early-mid 90s was definitely a product of his time, growing as a musician through the 1980s and early 90s, combined with a love for prog and jazz-fusion. He drifted away from much of what Volante99 describes since FII.

FII is a transitional period for JP, and I like some of his stuff on that album or on ACOS, but other times I'm not into his tone, but he was still keeping things funky here and there. From SFAM onward, is when that 80s/90s JP became modern JP. I do really enjoy JP's post-FII work though, up until and including BC&SL. Since then, I've not been a huge fan of his tone on the studio albums again, or much of his new riffs, which to me often sound more elementary for his skill level and history of cool riffs.

However, he showed us he's still got some of that classic JP still in him on LTE3, in my opinion. His guitar sounded really good again, so I believe MP co-producing (and his style and creativity) is a big reason for why JP sounds better on albums with him on drums from my view, not to mention JP+MP were born to play with each other, their sound is huge, whereas I find Mangini behind JP so lack deepness in the sound.

This is not outlandish; despite being the producer and, at times, the engineer, Jimmy Page never quite approached his Zeppelin sound when not playing with John Bonham.   It was about space and it was about motion.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 22, 2021, 06:55:07 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on June 21, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 21, 2021, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 16, 2021, 10:07:45 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 16, 2021, 10:02:36 AM
I did give a full listen to both the self-titled and The Astonishing I think.

For what it's worth, those are the two least liked of the Mangini era.  And whether or not you end up liking A Dramatic Turn of Events, Breaking All Illusions is probably THE fan favorite from the Mangini era.  Personally, I find the music to be outstanding, but personally don't care for the lyrics.

I find all Myung lyrics to be meaningless drivel.

Controversial that is...agree I do not ;)

Honestly, I'm as big a 'different strokes' guy as you'll find, but this strikes me as borderline contrarian. Coming to a DT forum and posting that? You might need to show your work :rollin

While I'm not willing to go as far as "meaningless drivel", I have, in this thread, said that I find the fawning over Myung's lyrics to be quizzical.   I'm not suggesting that JM's lyrics are bad, but they aren't at the level for me that they are for others.  As I've noted, there are frequently posts, pre-album release, along the lines of "Can't wait for this record!  Myung is writing lyrics!  It's going to be epic!".  Uh, ok.  That is, to me, like saying "The mail is coming today!  I can't wait! It's going to be epic!"     They may well be, but the simple fact that JM is writing them isn't really the determinant there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 22, 2021, 09:02:29 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on June 21, 2021, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: KevShmev on June 21, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
He can't show his work for such a terrible opinion, but that is pretty normal when you consider the source.

that's a bit hostile, don't you think? :-\

Considering someone called a part of Dream Theater's music "meaningless drivel," which feels against the rules :p, nah.  Probably a bit too direct on my part, I'll give you that.  I will digress. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 22, 2021, 09:30:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 22, 2021, 06:55:07 AM
While I'm not willing to go as far as "meaningless drivel", I have, in this thread, said that I find the fawning over Myung's lyrics to be quizzical.   I'm not suggesting that JM's lyrics are bad, but they aren't at the level for me that they are for others.  As I've noted, there are frequently posts, pre-album release, along the lines of "Can't wait for this record!  Myung is writing lyrics!  It's going to be epic!".  Uh, ok.  That is, to me, like saying "The mail is coming today!  I can't wait! It's going to be epic!"     They may well be, but the simple fact that JM is writing them isn't really the determinant there.

I agree with that.  I think it all dates back to the time leading up to ADTOE, and it was announced that JM would be writing lyrics for one of the song and people lost their ever-loving minds.  At that point, JM had written precisely four songs worth of lyrics:  Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, Trial of Tears and Fatal Tragedy.  And yet folks acted like he was the second coming of ____ (insert name of some epic lyric poet).  My GUESS is that it's because all of those are fairly highly regarded DT songs, with LTL being routinely a top three song and TOT being almost universally regarded as the best song on FII.

But the notion that all JM lyrics are "meaningless drivel" is unsupportable poo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 22, 2021, 09:48:15 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on June 22, 2021, 09:30:02 AM
I agree with that.  I think it all dates back to the time leading up to ADTOE, and it was announced that JM would be writing lyrics for one of the song and people lost their ever-loving minds.  At that point, JM had written precisely four songs worth of lyrics:  Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, Trial of Tears and Fatal Tragedy.

To be fair, he also wrote March of the Tyrant and verse 2 of Take the Time :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 22, 2021, 03:50:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 22, 2021, 03:57:14 PM
S2N is one of JMs good lyrics because it's about the Wow Signal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on June 22, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 22, 2021, 03:50:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."

See, that's how I see most modern JP lyrics, who also helped write that song lyrically. I do love the song and agree that modern JM lyrics are meh. But I still think his few older songs are pretty great, though I get it if they aren't for you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 22, 2021, 06:07:40 PM
And DT15 is apparently "full of positivity" xD. I'm not against it though, I just hope it still has some darker moments.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 22, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on June 22, 2021, 08:37:00 PM
There’s plenty of darkness in the world. Positivity is a good thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 22, 2021, 08:46:07 PM
Quote from: Adami on June 22, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 22, 2021, 03:50:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."

See, that's how I see most modern JP lyrics, who also helped write that song lyrically. I do love the song and agree that modern JM lyrics are meh. But I still think his few older songs are pretty great, though I get it if they aren't for you.

This. You're right.

I think if I count the songs of the band that I really like the lyrics, I don't even get to ten.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Adami on June 22, 2021, 08:58:50 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 22, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain...

Yea. Can’t get into that stuff at all. Ah well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 22, 2021, 10:30:53 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on June 22, 2021, 08:37:00 PM
There’s plenty of darkness in the world. Positivity is a good thing.

I agree, but I still like my share of dark songs :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaPsTA on June 23, 2021, 07:34:41 AM
Quote from: RMGadelha on June 22, 2021, 06:07:40 PM
And DT15 is apparently "full of positivity" xD. I'm not against it though, I just hope it still has some darker moments.

Dream Theater's normally at their best when they're being depressing. But maybe there's too much of that lately and this will be the antidote
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 23, 2021, 08:16:56 AM
I'm not sure I agree with that notion that DT is "better" when dark and depressing.  I'm sort of out of that phase of my life, and I find a lot of DT music to be, if not uplifting (that's Neal Morse), then at least relatively positive.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lonk on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Zydar on June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on June 23, 2021, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Zydar on June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

100%!!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on June 23, 2021, 10:06:28 AM
Quote from: Zydar on June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on June 23, 2021, 10:08:26 AM
+1 on the Viper King love
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on June 23, 2021, 10:09:01 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 23, 2021, 10:06:28 AM
Quote from: Zydar on June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).

I was hoping they would play this one as the first song on the encore of that tour.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 23, 2021, 11:05:45 AM
I like my metal music to be on the darker side - more with the sound than the lyrics. Most DT music for me isn't a downer, just thoughtful and many times a song ends on a positive note (i.e., AWE, BW, ITPoE,) leaves it open or tells a story. I just don't care for metal in all sorts of major keys. Or even the opposite is ok. Like in the song 6 Degrees. Happy sound, bummer lyrics.  And I am certainly not interested in a pandemic, judgey, we are all better people or should be, blah, blah. I need to be taken away from all that crud.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RMGadelha on June 23, 2021, 11:11:56 AM
Oh yeah, I loved Viper King! It felt really nostalgic! I would love to see more of that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 23, 2021, 12:53:46 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on June 23, 2021, 10:09:01 AM
Quote from: TheCountOfNYC on June 23, 2021, 10:06:28 AM
Quote from: Zydar on June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).

I was hoping they would play this one as the first song on the encore of that tour.

Viper King is in the bottom 3 songs they've ever done. Maybe the worst?

It's "nostalgic" in the same way your creepy uncle is desperately clinging to the last strands of his hair with a combover and still wearing that Styx "Cyclorama" Tour shirt with ketchup stains.

Pure "Dad" metal.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 23, 2021, 01:07:29 PM
Dad Metal FTW!! :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 23, 2021, 01:10:33 PM
If that's "dad metal", I'm not letting ANYONE look at my CD collection....   :) :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 23, 2021, 01:11:19 PM
That's Granddad's Metal! :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: cramx3 on June 23, 2021, 01:20:27 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 23, 2021, 01:07:29 PM
Dad Metal FTW!! :metal

 :metal :metal
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on June 23, 2021, 04:52:55 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on June 23, 2021, 11:05:45 AM
I like my metal music to be on the darker side - more with the sound than the lyrics. Most DT music for me isn't a downer, just thoughtful and many times a song ends on a positive note (i.e., AWE, BW, ITPoE,) leaves it open or tells a story. I just don't care for metal in all sorts of major keys. Or even the opposite is ok. Like in the song 6 Degrees. Happy sound, bummer lyrics.  And I am certainly not interested in a pandemic, judgey, we are all better people or should be, blah, blah. I need to be taken away from all that crud.

Ahh...I see. You use music as an escape from reality. Nothing wrong with that. And there are other great bands and music that will take that escape from reality to the next level.

Dream Theater is not only that type of band, they are also a band that can make lyrics about various type of subjects. How the music makes the lyricist feel at the time, is how they will determine the subject of their words. On D/T, the one who wrote the lyrics chose the instrumental song that spoke to them most while it was being worked on. JLB or JP saying something like "I like this, I'm gonna take this one and write the lyrics."

S2N was based off a riff from JM, and the song wasn't worked on until the very end. It seems like they asked JM to write lyrics to this as a sort of a make-up for holding off on this song until the very end of the sessions.

Mangini came in with most of Room 137, and it was a great opportunity for them to let Mangini have a chance at writing lyrics. Room 137, has some great vocal rhythms within the groove and the rhythm structure. Which JP complimented on, as MM being a drummer, has more of a sense to the rhythm of the words, more so than JP does, and can utilize this to create some interesting rhythms with the melodies and lyrics within the entire song structure. I quite enjoy how these lyrics do work within the rhythm of the song, especially the kick drums. I am really looking forward to this song live, and I think it would be a good energetic song live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 23, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 23, 2021, 12:53:46 PM
Viper King is in the bottom 3 songs they've ever done. Maybe the worst?

It's "nostalgic" in the same way your creepy uncle is desperately clinging to the last strands of his hair with a combover and still wearing that Styx "Cyclorama" Tour shirt with ketchup stains.

Pure "Dad" metal.

I don't know if I agree with all this, but it made me laugh.

The intro is solid, and the chorus is great. The rest of the song is just sorta... there.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on June 23, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 24, 2021, 02:59:02 AM
James' vocals are absolutely buried in the mix with that effect on them and he really could've done with a vocal style that was much more gritty with that one. Because of that, it really just sounds botched to me. I don't mind it musically, although the verses kind of feel a bit... lost sometimes. I get the feeling that Dream Theater aren't used to doing this sort of bluesy Deep Purple stuff for a full original song and I think in Viper King, it really shows. I also think that the tempo shifts feel janky and that it's overall kind of underdeveloped. I'm not at all surprised that this was a bonus track. In the context of it just being a lighthearted jam that isn't given the weight of being a track on the official album it's fine, but I'm glad that D/T as an album is officially just Untethered Angel to Pale Blue Dot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: JLa on June 24, 2021, 03:46:40 AM
About this whole lyrics thing, I think JM usually does good ones, but as a whole I liked their lyrics in their earlier albums better. I liked when the lyrics were more poetic and "mysterious", it wasn't that obvious what they were writing about. Take something like "Surrounded" and compare it to "The Count of Tuscany" .. (ok, that's the worst example). They're getting back into the game with the more recent releases, though.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:17:17 AM
While I wouldn’t call it “mindless drivel” JM can certainly get over indulgent with his lyrics, but so can JP and MP. None of the boys are exactly Robert Frost or Bob Dylan reincarnated, here. But Myung is probably the most consistent of the bunch, with JLB certainly deserving some praise as well.

To be honest though, with very few exceptions, lyrics have never been high on the list of things that excite my about DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.   
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 24, 2021, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on June 24, 2021, 07:44:16 AM
Quote from: wolfking on June 23, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.

Ruins it? Really? Wow—I mean, I get not liking it, but I find it hard to believe that the inclusion of a bonus track 'ruins' the rest of the album. Tough crowd in these parts :huh:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 08:00:28 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 24, 2021, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.

I hear you, and I get the distinction you're making.  But I'm still in that camp.   Purple - one of my favorite bands of all time - survived just nicely with Ian Gillan, who is more of a LaBrie type singer, as opposed to Coverdale/Hughes, who are more Allen/Soto singers.  I've always said I love the juxtaposition more than the synchronicity, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:06:07 AM
Quote from: Enigmachine on June 24, 2021, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.

Exactly my point- I’m not a BIG fan of Russell Allen and, for the most part, cant stand Jeff Scott Soto but that’s kind of the type of voice you need to pull off a cheesefest song like Viper King.

If I’m speaking your language Stadler- I think Paul Stanley or hell even Gene Simmons (circa 1982) could have probably done better with this song.

And that’s not a major dig on JLB- this just isn’t his song.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Enigmachine on June 24, 2021, 08:14:30 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 08:00:28 AM
I hear you, and I get the distinction you're making.  But I'm still in that camp.   Purple - one of my favorite bands of all time - survived just nicely with Ian Gillan, who is more of a LaBrie type singer, as opposed to Coverdale/Hughes, who are more Allen/Soto singers.  I've always said I love the juxtaposition more than the synchronicity, if that makes sense.

I don't know, even Gillan definitely has that very bluesy quality to his voice with that charismatic and sly snarl and even nowadays tends to stay within the lower end of his range to play to his strengths. James didn't add any kind of character to his voice like that and stays in that uncomfortably high range when it came to Viper King, which is why I feel like the pairing didn't work very well. Maybe a few moments here and there, but it didn't feel like enough to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on June 24, 2021, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on June 24, 2021, 07:44:16 AM
Quote from: wolfking on June 23, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.

Ruins it? Really? Wow—I mean, I get not liking it, but I find it hard to believe that the inclusion of a bonus track 'ruins' the rest of the album. Tough crowd in these parts :huh:

Right?

Also, Viper King >>> Room 137.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 10:48:18 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.

You're not a fan when he's mutherfuckin' psychosane?  :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 24, 2021, 11:04:53 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 10:48:18 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on June 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.

You're not a fan when he's mutherfuckin' psychosane?  :)

You could say so, yeah :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 24, 2021, 11:42:57 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

And this continues to be repeated to exhaustion. It doesn't matter in what context, in what language, in what country, when talking about "Vocals in DT" Russell Allen will be remembered (and JSS more recently). Herd effect?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 24, 2021, 03:57:52 PM
Quote from: Stadler on June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Amen to this.  I get the appeal for Allen, but his style just isn't my thing, I guess. Soto's singing has about much personality as watching paint dry, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 24, 2021, 04:03:09 PM
Russ Allen singing Viper King? WTF? No way.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
I love Allen and really like his style.  To a lesser degree, same with Soto.  But I don't want either singing DT. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on June 24, 2021, 04:47:42 PM
If you want someone a bit rougher, I'd go with Andi Deris. Allen would AMob it up, and JSS would genericize it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 05:02:25 PM
Quote from: TAC on June 24, 2021, 04:47:42 PM
If you want someone a bit rougher, I'd go with Andi Deris. Allen would AMob it up, and JSS would genericize it.

Fair point. Although I would argue the song is already awfully generic.

To be fair to JLB, I don’t think any singer could turn Viper King into a GOOD song for me. I’m just shooting for tolerable, here.  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on June 24, 2021, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.

No, I think we understand.  We just think you are wrong.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 24, 2021, 05:12:52 PM
My thought on the vocals for VK.  The music has energy, groove. The verse vocals are slow, like they need more words or a different beat. It doesn't match. The chorus is ok, but it just sounds off in the verses.  I like how JL voice sounds in it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 05:23:23 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on June 24, 2021, 05:05:42 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.

No, I think we understand.  We just think you are wrong.

Well, there’s no accounting for taste, is there?  ;)
Really, some think I’m wrong, a couple think I’m right…we may have an actual controversial opinion here.
If I can give Viper King one compliment; it definitely seems to really bring about a mixed, love/hate reaction amongst a lot of listeners. If nothing else it’s definitely a success in shaking things up a bit.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dedalus on June 24, 2021, 06:29:46 PM
I have nothing against Viper King. I think I'm pretty tolerant of these half-generic songs with a deep purpleian flavor. I remember that the only things I found tolerable in that disgrace called Sons of Apollo were just two songs (I think there were two) with this flavor.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 24, 2021, 10:31:18 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

Boy was I disappointed in that band. The reaction to it was kind of the last straw that lead to MP shuttering his forum too.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 25, 2021, 01:36:59 AM
Quote from: HOF on June 24, 2021, 10:31:18 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

Boy was I disappointed in that band. The reaction to it was kind of the last straw that lead to MP shuttering his forum too.

Textbook example of a “super group” that works better on paper than real life.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TM172003 on June 25, 2021, 03:18:26 AM
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: KevShmev on June 25, 2021, 06:15:05 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 25, 2021, 06:46:06 AM
Quote from: TM172003 on June 25, 2021, 03:18:26 AM
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Quote from: KevShmev on June 25, 2021, 06:15:05 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 25, 2021, 07:19:21 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 25, 2021, 06:46:06 AM
Quote from: TM172003 on June 25, 2021, 03:18:26 AM
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Quote from: KevShmev on June 25, 2021, 06:15:05 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).

Vocals were definitely part of the problem. Jeff’s got this AOR cheese voice that every song can’t help ending up sounding vaguely like a Rocky IV training montage.  :lol

Another issue I think is that, although Bumblefoot is one of the most talented guitar players alive, I’m not entirely convinced he can actually write a compelling melody/riff.

Otherwise- their best songs like “Fall to Ascend” sound like Grade B Dream Theater, which is what Portnoy should have really tried to avoid like the plague.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 25, 2021, 08:57:55 AM
I can't help but compare SoA to Black Country Communion (not a bad thing).   Those BCC records are solid as a rock, and SoA could be as well, but Glenn Hughes just brings so much to the table on the BCC and I'm missing that in the SoA work.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: King Postwhore on June 25, 2021, 09:09:08 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 25, 2021, 07:19:21 AM
Quote from: Stadler on June 25, 2021, 06:46:06 AM
Quote from: TM172003 on June 25, 2021, 03:18:26 AM
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Quote from: KevShmev on June 25, 2021, 06:15:05 AM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).

Vocals were definitely part of the problem. Jeff’s got this AOR cheese voice that every song can’t help ending up sounding vaguely like a Rocky IV training montage.  :lol

Another issue I think is that, although Bumblefoot is one of the most talented guitar players alive, I’m not entirely convinced he can actually write a compelling melody/riff.

Otherwise- their best songs like “Fall to Ascend” sound like Grade B Dream Theater, which is what Portnoy should have really tried to avoid like the plague.

I don't know what AOR singers you listen to but Jeff doesn't sound like that at all.  I'm not saying I love SoA.  I find them average at best but I don't hear Jeff singing radio songs.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 25, 2021, 09:12:45 AM
Depending who we're talking about, I'd kinda like an AOR singer.  Someone to put another sonic layer over the heavy meat and potatoes of the music.   There are so many instances of those songs feeling like they should soar, and instead... not.  Like I said above, there's a LOT going on in that similar sonic range.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on June 25, 2021, 11:15:03 AM
I like Sons of Apollo, but I do understand the dislike for the band.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 25, 2021, 01:13:32 PM
Add me to the list of those who like SoA. Not my favorite DT offshoot and a bit too straightforward, but I like it otherwise - especially JSS's vocals.  :omg:

Actually this thread got me to listening to their first album again after not having spun it for a long time (don't worry - same is true for many of DT's album), and I enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on June 25, 2021, 01:18:16 PM
I just started listening a bit to SOA.  Some really decent music, but the vocals are Boring. I am not enjoying  them enough to really keep pursing listening that often. Only if they come up in a playlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Volante99 on June 25, 2021, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 25, 2021, 09:09:08 AM

I don't know what AOR singers you listen to but Jeff doesn't sound like that at all.  I'm not saying I love SoA.  I find them average at best but I don't hear Jeff singing radio songs.

Hahaha he was literally in Journey (albeit for a short while).

Idk, his voice just sounds like quintessential 80s cheese to me- that Stan Bush, Robert Tepper, Joe Lynn Turner vibe. He’s a talented vocalist, for sure- I just have a hard time taking him seriously.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 26, 2021, 05:29:06 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

Especially with new bands where chemistry hasn't been established yet.
It would make more sense if there was more improv involved in MP's side projects, but there rarely is.
With Neal Morse-related projects, it's one thing, because Neal (and Roine in TA) have massive amounts of ideas to bring in every session, and at this point, MP has been working with those guys for over 20 years.
With rock or prog related music, there needs to be a marinating phase, otherwise, the music sounds unfinished. That's when you get songs that have choruses that don't sound like they fit with the verses surrounding them, and then you also get pretty standard (boring) song structures.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on June 26, 2021, 09:19:02 AM
It's also one thing to write an album with Neal Morse (who could write half of it while he's having lunch), and other people who need more time to craft their songs and musical ideas. In the case of SOA, they're all incredible musicians, but that doesn't mean they can write great stuff by themselves.
As stated before, Bumblefoot doesn't really write memorable riffs/melodies and even Derek relies heavily on co-writers (like Simon Phillips) for his solo stuff. Mike doesn't write (almost) at all and he can only use his production/arranging skills with the material the other guys bring in.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: HOF on June 26, 2021, 09:27:27 AM
I wish they had gone with the PSMS lineup and brought in a different singer (no idea who). Not sure what kind of health MacAlpine was in at that point, but there was already chemistry and history there with the four of them all having worked together and on separate projects.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 26, 2021, 10:13:53 AM
It does highlight the fact that Dream Theater, with all their skills and technique, have songwriting skills to back them up, and always have. While I am not the biggest fan of the Mangini era, I'll still listen to those albums, even The Astonishing, over much of MP's own projects since his departure, I admit I haven't heard every album by every band MP has formed since 2010, either. Most of what he's been involved with that I listen to more frequently are projects related to DT (LTE3, Terminal Velocity) or involving those who can write good music (Neal Morse, TA, Roine Stolt, etc..) and he had been working with them when he was in DT as well. So to me, no project created since his leaving the band has left a memorable impression on me, aside from a few tracks from Flying Colors; and The Neal Morse Band is more than just Neal solo, that's a band with input from all members, so that's a good new band. They really are Spock's Theater, with the guitarist Eric Gillette bringing in JP-isms previously unheard on Neal Morse albums, but without being a JP clone and having his own style.

To me, much of his projects over the last 10-12 years seem like hooking up with any working musician that MP had communication with and was available just because MP was "out of a job", and putting out some sounds for the sake of it, instead of there being more natural connection or gelling of the musicians to create something cool, creative, and new.

I always hoped MP would form the Mike Portnoy Group (MPG) featuring a lineup of great musicians but whom could write music and collaborate with Mike and his creative vision (something which can only take you so far depending on the wealth of creative ideas the other musicians have)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 26, 2021, 02:27:41 PM
Quote from: Volante99 on June 25, 2021, 02:37:41 PM
Quote from: kingshmegland on June 25, 2021, 09:09:08 AM

I don't know what AOR singers you listen to but Jeff doesn't sound like that at all.  I'm not saying I love SoA.  I find them average at best but I don't hear Jeff singing radio songs.

Hahaha he was literally in Journey (albeit for a short while).

Idk, his voice just sounds like quintessential 80s cheese to me- that Stan Bush, Robert Tepper, Joe Lynn Turner vibe. He’s a talented vocalist, for sure- I just have a hard time taking him seriously.

I wouldn't put Joe Lynn Turner in the same boat.   At any given time he's my favorite singer in Rainbow (yes, I know what I'm saying there) and I don't see much similarity with Jeff.

Jeff might have been in Journey, but that doesn't make it a good fit, so there's that.

And all respect to Kotowboy, but I think the "take time to write" thing is overblown.  The guys can and do bring in things from outside, so the "writing" isn't the issue to me.  I think it's the categories.   It's the "this is my PROG project, this is my METAL project, this is my prog metal project".   The best of his work - both within and without DT - was independent of genre.   I LOVED I&W because it WASN'T stuck in a genre rut.   it's only when they started to get specific - ToT: this is our metal album - that it started to sort of suffer.  Neal is hardcore prog, no doubt, but there's less rigidity in the NM/NMB/TA stuff than some of the other projects, which, to me, tend to be more one-dimensional.  No mystery which ones I like better.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: emtee on June 26, 2021, 02:35:50 PM
Yeah, JLT is one of my favorite vocalists.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: darkshade on June 26, 2021, 03:14:14 PM
Correct. TA/NM is 'anything goes' which was what used to be the DT mantra more or less until around TOT. I think that is when MP shines, when there are no restrictions in regards to genre.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Revenge319 on June 26, 2021, 04:38:44 PM
This is just a small thing, and I don't know if this is even controversial, but I don't like the kaleidoscope designs they're doing for the artwork on the Lost Not Forgotten archive releases. It looks alright on the "A Dramatic Tour of Events" CD, but I don't think it looks good at all on the other ones...
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kotowboy on June 27, 2021, 05:34:47 AM
To me it's completely fine. It's an official bootleg. Nothing fancy. Not a big release. It needs a picture. That'll do.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on June 27, 2021, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

That's also why I think MMXX is so much better than the debut. They took a lot of time to write that from jamming ideas at shows, to recording the core of the music, to weeks and maybe months of touchups and additions.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on June 27, 2021, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 27, 2021, 05:34:47 AM
To me it's completely fine. It's an official bootleg. Nothing fancy. Not a big release. It needs a picture. That'll do.
I think the way they were done for YJR releases was better - they were still clearly official bootlegs, but there was a single image closely related to whatever the release was that was easy to recognize/relate to. These kaleidoscope designs are way more obscure and hard to understand than the JM lyrics you love to bag on!   :biggrin:

I realize now that they are under a different branding, they wanted something different but still somewhat uniform across all the official bootleg releases, but I imagine that they could've come up with a better idea than what they've chosen to go with.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on June 27, 2021, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 27, 2021, 05:34:47 AM
To me it's completely fine. It's an official bootleg. Nothing fancy. Not a big release. It needs a picture. That'll do.

Fair point, but I would like a little more for my favorite band than "that'll do," regardless of what the product/release actually is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on June 27, 2021, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on June 27, 2021, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 27, 2021, 05:34:47 AM
To me it's completely fine. It's an official bootleg. Nothing fancy. Not a big release. It needs a picture. That'll do.
I think the way they were done for YJR releases was better - they were still clearly official bootlegs, but there was a single image closely related to whatever the release was that was easy to recognize/relate to. These kaleidoscope designs are way more obscure and hard to understand than the JM lyrics you love to bag on!   :biggrin:

I realize now that they are under a different branding, they wanted something different but still somewhat uniform across all the official bootleg releases, but I imagine that they could've come up with a better idea than what they've chosen to go with.

I haven't really taken the time to look at the new stuff - I'm going to order the first two this week (but my OCD is bristling at not having a complete set without rebuying the stuff I already have! Hahaha!) - but the older stuff was cool.  I liked the inset, I liked the wax seal, I thought it was appropriate.  I've always liked the artwork around Dream Theater, to be honest (including the Fan Club releases) except for the first album. 

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on November 02, 2021, 08:12:45 AM
Not exactly controversial, but best place to post I guess. I was reading through a DT thread on another forum regarding James' live performances, and the guy pointed out something that I can't unhear now - even all the way back on AWAKE James was turning every vowel sound into an "a" which of course is what he does all the time now live . . .

The devil in my bad . . .
Voisaahs recalling mae . . .
Lifting shadows off a drame . . .
Can't hear aaaht, we fear aaaht . . .
Fatalistic remedays . . .

I mean grrrr  :facepalm:. I don't want to hear "well, that's his natural accent or lazy technique", the damn producer should have kept at him. Enunciation and pronunciation, who needs 'em . . .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on November 02, 2021, 08:20:14 AM
I don't think it is his accent, and it certainly isn't "lazy" technique.  It is a correct technique mixed with stylistic elements.  If you don't like it, fine.  But there's nothing "wrong" with it that would have caused a producer to have "kept at him."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 02, 2021, 08:42:44 AM
Reminds me of the part in the documentary where JP is laughing at JLBs lyrics and said..."Uh-Oh. Looks like james has put himself in a conundrum because it's hard for him to say 'out' with these lyrics 'multi planet species out amongst the stars'."

I just laughed at that part and wondered how much JLB, or any non English singer, has to work on their enunciation for the studio albums. Which I find perplexing.

Accents are great in music and why I enjoy listening to non-english songs. Even live, I enjoy these non-english singers accents they have no control over live, such as Tarja not being able to really pronounce the 'E's' like in Ever Dream. And Kuolema Tekee Taiteilijan is an amazing song that showcases Tarjas amazing voice and tone, and I feel it's because her natural accents can shine without being forced back for the correct enunciation of the english words.

I am not there for perfect english. I am there to hear the singers sing the notes.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 02, 2021, 08:54:29 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on November 02, 2021, 08:12:45 AM
Not exactly controversial, but best place to post I guess. I was reading through a DT thread on another forum regarding James' live performances, and the guy pointed out something that I can't unhear now - even all the way back on AWAKE James was turning every vowel sound into an "a" which of course is what he does all the time now live . . .

The devil in my bad . . .
Voisaahs recalling mae . . .
Lifting shadows off a drame . . .
Can't hear aaaht, we fear aaaht . . .
Fatalistic remedays . . .

I mean grrrr  :facepalm:. I don't want to hear "well, that's his natural accent or lazy technique", the damn producer should have kept at him. Enunciation and pronunciation, who needs 'em . . .

It wasn't just him; I've commented on this a number of times.   If you listen to the isolated tracks from the FII sessions, the background vocals do that too:  "Yewwwwwww, not maaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!" 

I don't think it's lazy either, but it is a stylistic affectation, and not my favorite one either.

James has always been good - for better or worse - for those affectations, especially on stage.  It is what it is.  Every singer does that to some degree (can't be a Paul Stanley fan without acknowledging that!). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 02, 2021, 09:11:15 AM
Quote from: Stadler on November 02, 2021, 08:54:29 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on November 02, 2021, 08:12:45 AM
Not exactly controversial, but best place to post I guess. I was reading through a DT thread on another forum regarding James' live performances, and the guy pointed out something that I can't unhear now - even all the way back on AWAKE James was turning every vowel sound into an "a" which of course is what he does all the time now live . . .

The devil in my bad . . .
Voisaahs recalling mae . . .
Lifting shadows off a drame . . .
Can't hear aaaht, we fear aaaht . . .
Fatalistic remedays . . .

I mean grrrr  :facepalm:. I don't want to hear "well, that's his natural accent or lazy technique", the damn producer should have kept at him. Enunciation and pronunciation, who needs 'em . . .

It wasn't just him; I've commented on this a number of times.   If you listen to the isolated tracks from the FII sessions, the background vocals do that too:  "Yewwwwwww, not maaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!" 

I don't think it's lazy either, but it is a stylistic affectation, and not my favorite one either.

James has always been good - for better or worse - for those affectations, especially on stage.  It is what it is.  Every singer does that to some degree (can't be a Paul Stanley fan without acknowledging that!).

A fantastic example is the way the word Baby is sung by the many pop singers..."Cause you'll always be my Babayyy"..

Or the example of the rappers playing with enunciation of such words like this example by Chingy..."I like the way you do right Thurr....Right down to her Hurr...that make me sturr."

I find the Chingy example to be hilarious because they are just playing around with enunciation of words to fit the style of the rhyming in the rap... :lol

I see it as no different than a singer singing words and writing lyrics based off those words that don't really make sense, because it sounded good to sing and the melody just works with those words.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on November 02, 2021, 10:09:13 AM
When singing at higher pitches, the long "E" sounds is harder to voice correctly, so TONS of singers will use the long "A" to voice syllables that would be spoken as long "E."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: nobloodyname on November 02, 2021, 11:06:21 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 02, 2021, 09:11:15 AM

Or the example of the rappers playing with enunciation of such words like this example by Chingy..."I like the way you do right Thurr....Right down to her Hurr...that make me sturr."


At risk of sounding like the 48 year old out of touch white guy that I am, wtf is a Chingy? :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lonk on November 02, 2021, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: nobloodyname on November 02, 2021, 11:06:21 AM
At risk of sounding like the 48 year old out of touch white guy that I am, wtf is a Chingy? :lol

Rapper from the early 2000's
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on November 02, 2021, 11:28:12 AM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on November 02, 2021, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: nobloodyname on November 02, 2021, 11:06:21 AM
At risk of sounding like the 48 year old out of touch white guy that I am, wtf is a Chingy? :lol

Rapper from the early 2000's

That's what they want you to believe.   ;)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lonk on February 18, 2022, 05:36:38 PM
So, listening to some DT at the moment and BAI played.

I think the weakest part of the song is the solo (at least the first half or so of it).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 18, 2022, 05:51:41 PM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on February 18, 2022, 05:36:38 PM
So, listening to some DT at the moment and BAI played.

I think the weakest part of the song is the solo (at least the first half or so of it).

I'll take it one step farther:  I think the weakest part of the album is BAI.  That said, it's still a good song. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 06:00:46 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 18, 2022, 05:51:41 PM
Quote from: Vmadera00 on February 18, 2022, 05:36:38 PM
So, listening to some DT at the moment and BAI played.

I think the weakest part of the song is the solo (at least the first half or so of it).

I'll take it one step farther: I think the weakest part of the album is BAI.  That said, it's still a good song.

I know, opinions and such, but... WHAT?! :omg:

Not even taking in consideration that it is a fan favorite, I just can't agree with the bolded part when BMU,BMD and FFH exist in the same album :P

And, I guess it's time for my controversial opinion: I think the band could use another lineup change soon.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on February 18, 2022, 06:10:18 PM
I think Breaking All Illusions is Mangini era's Learning To Live. One of their best along with Outcry.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2022, 06:32:51 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on February 18, 2022, 06:10:18 PM
I think Breaking All Illusions is Mangini era's Learning To Live.

Without a doubt.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:13:44 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 06:00:46 PM
And, I guess it's time for my controversial opinion: I think the band could use another lineup change soon.
Who?
 
 
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2022, 06:32:51 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on February 18, 2022, 06:10:18 PM
I think Breaking All Illusions is Mangini era's Learning To Live.
Without a doubt.
I think that's a given. Plus OtBoA is Mangini era's PMU, LNF is Mangini era's UaGM, TitL is Mangini era's AD, Outcry is Mangini era's Metropolis, and FFH is Mangini era's WFS.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 18, 2022, 07:16:46 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:13:44 PM
Quote from: TAC on February 18, 2022, 06:32:51 PM
Quote from: SeRoX on February 18, 2022, 06:10:18 PM
I think Breaking All Illusions is Mangini era's Learning To Live.
Without a doubt.
I think that's a given. Plus OtBoA is Mangini era's PMU, LNF is Mangini era's UaGM, TitL is Mangini era's AD, Outcry is Mangini era's Metropolis, and FFH is Mangini era's WFS.   :biggrin:


(https://c.tenor.com/gUX4sDC_-nwAAAAC/what-huh.gif)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 07:18:51 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:13:44 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 06:00:46 PM
And, I guess it's time for my controversial opinion: I think the band could use another lineup change soon.
Who?

James and/or Jordan.

(Love them both, btw, I just think the band could shake things up a little bit)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 07:20:24 PM
Controversial, and not feasible, opinion... the band should limit touring to limited stops/dates, and write and record a new album once every 18 months at most, as the inspiration hits them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 08:59:19 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 07:20:24 PM
Controversial, and not feasible, opinion... the band should limit touring to limited stops/dates, and write and record a new album once every 18 months at most, as the inspiration hits them.
I dunno how controversial that is, but yeah, probably not feasible given the fact that touring rakes in a lot more income then album sales these days.

Sort of in line with what you were saying about doing a new album every 18 months, I wouldn't say that, but I would love for them to not just write enough material to fill a CD and call it a day, but given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out. Then go back and select the best/most cohesive group of songs for the album, but keep the rest for B-sides, mid-tour EPs, bonus tracks, etc. Especially now that they have the DTHQ and therefore no time limits like they used to, I cannot understand why they wouldn't do this since they all seem to love the creative aspect of writing. Last time they did anything like this was for the FII writing sessions, and several of the songs that ended up on the final tracklisting came from the songs that were written long after they had enough material for the album. How many other times could they have written other, perhaps better songs, than what ended up on some of their albums but they didn't because they got their ~75 minutes of material? We'll never know, but it's a mindset I wish they'd change.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: UndercoverMyung on February 18, 2022, 09:16:33 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 07:18:51 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:13:44 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 18, 2022, 06:00:46 PM
And, I guess it's time for my controversial opinion: I think the band could use another lineup change soon.
Who?

James and/or Jordan.

(Love them both, btw, I just think the band could shake things up a little bit)



Unfortunately it would make sense for Jordan to be replaced considering how much older he is than everyone else.
I'd be ok with it if it was between that or DT being done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 09:22:44 PM
I was thinking it could be controversial due to how many fans, here anyway, love seeing them live. I'd rather have more material to enjoy for the rest of my life than a couple extra live concerts.

Regarding the second part, I know you are more tuned in than I am, but do we know this is true? Maybe they are tapped out once the hit a CD's worth of material. If not, then I would agree with your premise, as it goes along with my more music and less touring ideal.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 08:59:19 PM
...given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM
If John, John, Jordan or James decide that they are done…end the band. It’s too late in the game for changes. Especially James. I’d lose a ton of respect if they tried go out with a different singer at this point.

Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 19, 2022, 07:20:02 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 09:22:44 PM
Regarding the second part, I know you are more tuned in than I am, but do we know this is true? Maybe they are tapped out once the hit a CD's worth of material. If not, then I would agree with your premise, as it goes along with my more music and less touring ideal.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 08:59:19 PM
...given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out.
It's true. There have been numerous interviews where they've commented on how they have a wealth of ideas and that not all of them end up getting used. I actually brought this up when JP and JR did an online chat and here's their response:
https://youtu.be/li9kJdJ5L9c?t=741
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on February 19, 2022, 08:02:53 AM
Yeah but they save a lot of money not hiring a producer.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 19, 2022, 11:33:44 AM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 19, 2022, 07:20:02 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 09:22:44 PM
Regarding the second part, I know you are more tuned in than I am, but do we know this is true? Maybe they are tapped out once the hit a CD's worth of material. If not, then I would agree with your premise, as it goes along with my more music and less touring ideal.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 08:59:19 PM
...given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out.
It's true. There have been numerous interviews where they've commented on how they have a wealth of ideas and that not all of them end up getting used. I actually brought this up when JP and JR did an online chat and here's their response:
https://youtu.be/li9kJdJ5L9c?t=741

Thank you for posting. I do not read/watch interviews with the band much at all do don't deep dive in to such topics unless it is discussed here. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 03:13:48 PM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 19, 2022, 08:02:53 AM
Yeah but they save a lot of money not hiring a producer.

This could, in theory, compromise the quality of material, leading to less profit in the long run.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: jadiggerdt on February 20, 2022, 04:38:55 AM
https://youtu.be/5bF34XA_MKk

Again he post his agenda vs James
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 02:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn’t say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you’re reading. If you’re going to act like a child when you don’t like someone’s opinion, then maybe the internet isn’t for you.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 21, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 02:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn’t say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you’re reading. If you’re going to act like a child when you don’t like someone’s opinion, then maybe the internet isn’t for you.

Sadly, I think the internet has become a sandbox for exactly what you're describing here :eek
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 21, 2022, 08:00:02 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

This is a good point—as someone who can barely play a standard 4/4 beat on drums, Magnini's ability is lost upon me. I recognize that the man is insanely talented, but I honestly have no idea if he's playing Mike's old parts right or wrong.

I suspect that MP could step in and for 'most' non-drummers, it would probably be fine. Can he play Mangini's parts? Probably not fully, but I'm sure he'd assemble an approximation that would satisfy 'most' listeners.

Now, as a guitarist who has spent way to many hours deconstructing JP's solos, I fully get the idea that 'no one can replace him.' I was horrified by MP's 12-Step performance on the prog cruise a few years...literally hated hearing another guitarist 'butchering' JP's parts. But, even I have to concede that the performance was 'great' and that the issue was me being waaaayyyyy too picky.

I like the band as it is, and I LOVE Mangini's passion (and have grown to 'like' his drum sound, etc.). I truly hope there are no line-up changes in the future. But, if there was a situation where MP stepped in (ala When Dream and Day Reunite), I'm pretty sure I'd be viewing the whole thing with rose-colored glasses.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 02:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn’t say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you’re reading. If you’re going to act like a child when you don’t like someone’s opinion, then maybe the internet isn’t for you.

I'm so absolutely sick of being unable to go into literally any DT related conversation without people talking about Mike Portnoy coming back. Perhaps I was out of line there because you didn't do anything wrong - I'm just so tired of people bringing up Portnoy every 2 seconds.
Sorry if that was harsh though - I was just tired and can't stand seeing comments like this because I feel that they continue to treat Mangini as a second class member of the band or something. But I don't think that was your intention so my bad.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 21, 2022, 09:59:03 AM
I did a backwards DT discography listen recently, and while I've liked most of the Mangini albums, the Portnoy albums really felt like a breath of fresh air. I think it comes down to the production... The sound of Mangini's drums have gotten better on every album (and great on the latest), but the drums also sound very isolated, and triggered... more of a "modern" metal sound. When you listen to all MM's albums and then switch to Black Clouds or Systematic Chaos, it's like seeing in color for the first time. MP's drums sound like a guy playing live in a room with the rest of the band. Not just "there" but an active part of the overall sound that morphs from album to album (I love how every DT album it seems MP had a new "sound" whereas MM it's been more like refinements on the same type of modern metal sound).
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 21, 2022, 10:03:14 AM
Quote from: Skeever on February 21, 2022, 09:59:03 AM
I did a backwards DT discography listen recently, and while I've liked most of the Mangini albums, the Portnoy albums really felt like a breath of fresh air. I think it comes down to the production... The sound of Mangini's drums have gotten better on every album (and great on the latest), but the drums also sound very isolated, and triggered... more of a "modern" metal sound. When you listen to all MM's albums and then switch to Black Clouds or Systematic Chaos, it's like seeing in color for the first time. MP's drums sound like a guy playing live in a room with the rest of the band. Not just "there" but an active part of the overall sound that morphs from album to album (I love how every DT album it seems MP had a new "sound" whereas MM it's been more like refinements on the same type of modern metal sound).

His sound on ADTOE was much more natural/organic, but it was mixed a bit too low, sadly.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Chino on February 21, 2022, 11:14:03 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

Where were those shows?
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 11:47:05 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 02:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 11:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 06:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I’d be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren’t on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn’t say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you’re reading. If you’re going to act like a child when you don’t like someone’s opinion, then maybe the internet isn’t for you.

I'm so absolutely sick of being unable to go into literally any DT related conversation without people talking about Mike Portnoy coming back. Perhaps I was out of line there because you didn't do anything wrong - I'm just so tired of people bringing up Portnoy every 2 seconds.
Sorry if that was harsh though - I was just tired and can't stand seeing comments like this because I feel that they continue to treat Mangini as a second class member of the band or something. But I don't think that was your intention so my bad.

You’re right, that wasn’t my intention. I’ve been a supporter of Mangini in this band since the beginning. At the Meet and Greet in 2019 I even told him “thank you for being in this band”.  And he seemed genuinely appreciative of it. A few people earlier in this thread were talking about members changing and I was merely saying that the only one I would accept would be Portnoy coming back. And that’s only because the return of a founding member is totally different than someone new coming into the band at this point. IF it were up to me, Mangini would be in this band until they retire.

I get what you mean, every FB post and YouTube video about DT has Portnoy brought up. I’m tired of it too. We’re on the same team. It’s all good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
Quote from: Chino on February 21, 2022, 11:14:03 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

Where were those shows?

New York - Sony Hall - and Boston - The Sinclair - for The Neal Morse Band.  There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.  It may have been more enthusiasm and joy with playing with that band than sheer technical ability (I think I wrote here that on the first night, in New York, there was one part where I thought maybe he MIGHT have screwed up the timing of a part, but without a tape I can't be sure of that).  But it was powerful for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on February 21, 2022, 01:33:05 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.
MP is my second favorite drummer of all time (only behind NP) - and while I recognize there are other players "technically" better - he's still right at the top of the list for me.  Incredible drummer as far as I'm concerned!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.  To my mind, he's just pushing a different variable.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 03:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on February 21, 2022, 03:49:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 03:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 05:37:19 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 21, 2022, 03:49:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 03:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!

Agreed! Loved the show.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on February 21, 2022, 07:50:54 PM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 05:37:19 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 21, 2022, 03:49:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 03:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!

Agreed! Loved the show.

I thoroughly enjoyed the show in Seattle too,  the setlist was awesome to see live and the sound and lighting production was amazing!  💯💥
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 06:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 06:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

No need for a flame shield here—after all, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. ;)

My counter, however, would be Robert Plant.

Here's how I look at it...you either love a 73-year-old robert plant reinterpretting the Zep classics (singing a different (wayyyy lower) key with a dramatically different voice), or you prefer to go to a local bar where some 23-year old nails the songs just like the record.

There's no right or wrong, and it probably varies for everyone depending on the artist, but for me, James is the voice of DT, and I will be happy to hear his interpretation of the band's music for years to come.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 22, 2022, 07:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70’s.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 07:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70’s.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 08:39:08 AM
What about my question of is he actually enjoying what he's doing? Doesn't seem it to me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 07:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70’s.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.

I'm usually in lock step with Brother TAC, but on this one, not really.  Plant had his off nights, there's no question, but when he was on, WOW.  I went through a deep Zeppelin phase a while back and came out with a really profound admiration for him as a singer and a frontman.

One thing I will say is that to compare Robert Plant on the '75 tour of Zeppelin with the Plant of, say, the Carry Fire tour.  It's a different animal entirely; different music, different band, different approach.  I happen to like the current Plant BETTER than the histrionic rock god Plant, but that's my personal preference.

The problem with James - to the extent there is a problem - is that none of those caveats apply here.  It's NOT different music, it's NOT a different band, it's NOT a different approach.   Having said that, I rarely bail on a band because of the singer; I get that times change and voices change, etc.  Bruce is not the singer he once was (though, once he's as good as he ever was, if that makes sense).  Paul Stanley is a shadow of his former (vocal) self, but then again, he's still Paul Stanley.   I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2022, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.

Because it's Mike Portnoy? :P
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 09:04:39 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 07:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70’s.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.

I'm usually in lock step with Brother TAC, but on this one, not really.  Plant had his off nights, there's no question, but when he was on, WOW.  I went through a deep Zeppelin phase a while back and came out with a really profound admiration for him as a singer and a frontman.

One thing I will say is that to compare Robert Plant on the '75 tour of Zeppelin with the Plant of, say, the Carry Fire tour.  It's a different animal entirely; different music, different band, different approach.  I happen to like the current Plant BETTER than the histrionic rock god Plant, but that's my personal preference.

The problem with James - to the extent there is a problem - is that none of those caveats apply here.  It's NOT different music, it's NOT a different band, it's NOT a different approach.   Having said that, I rarely bail on a band because of the singer; I get that times change and voices change, etc.  Bruce is not the singer he once was (though, once he's as good as he ever was, if that makes sense).  Paul Stanley is a shadow of his former (vocal) self, but then again, he's still Paul Stanley.   I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.

That's a fair point. I suppose what I'm saying is that, even within the confines of the 'same' everything else, if James consistently opted for the lower range on older songs, I'd be down. I often sing along to Voices an octave lower than James, and honestly, I think that might make the song more enjoyable 'for everyone' at this point.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 09:05:05 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 08:39:08 AM
What about my question of is he actually enjoying what he's doing? Doesn't seem it to me.

Well, no one can answer that other than him. That’s why I prefaced my post with “if he wants to”.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 09:06:13 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.

How much more do they want him to progress? It's not like we go into a new MP song and go, "Oh god, 9/16 time to 7/8 time to 13/8 time again?! Why doesn't he try...."

I've heard some of these new prog band that try to throw in dozens of time signatures for the sake of progginess and it bores me. Portnoy is doing just fine.

I will say this though, his lack of practicing makes me wonder if his passion has waned. It doesn't affect his performance and I really can't judge his writing other than SoA which has a lot of really great moments, but I wonder if he had the choice to do it all over again if he would still choose drums?
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 06:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

No need for a flame shield here—after all, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. ;)

My counter, however, would be Robert Plant.

Here's how I look at it...you either love a 73-year-old robert plant reinterpretting the Zep classics (singing a different (wayyyy lower) key with a dramatically different voice), or you prefer to go to a local bar where some 23-year old nails the songs just like the record.



...and the vast, vast, vast majority would choose the former over the latter.

Same goes with DT. Replace James and watch their popularity tank. The only bands that had more success with a replacement vocalist were bands like Deep Purple who hadn't reached a very significant degree of popularity in the first place.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 09:06:13 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.

How much more do they want him to progress? It's not like we go into a new MP song and go, "Oh god, 9/16 time to 7/8 time to 13/8 time again?! Why doesn't he try...."

I've heard some of these new prog band that try to throw in dozens of time signatures for the sake of progginess and it bores me. Portnoy is doing just fine.

I will say this though, his lack of practicing makes me wonder if his passion has waned. It doesn't affect his performance and I really can't judge his writing other than SoA which has a lot of really great moments, but I wonder if he had the choice to do it all over again if he would still choose drums?
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 06:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

No need for a flame shield here—after all, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. ;)

My counter, however, would be Robert Plant.

Here's how I look at it...you either love a 73-year-old robert plant reinterpretting the Zep classics (singing a different (wayyyy lower) key with a dramatically different voice), or you prefer to go to a local bar where some 23-year old nails the songs just like the record.



...and the vast, vast, vast majority would choose the former over the latter.

Same goes with DT. Replace James and watch their popularity tank. The only bands that had more success with a replacement vocalist were bands like Deep Purple who hadn't reached a very significant degree of popularity in the first place.

It's a crazy short list, for sure.

Maybe only AC/DC and VH come to mind, and really, the former was obviously out of necessity while the latter divided a massive (compared to DT) fanbase.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 22, 2022, 09:31:47 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 09:06:13 AM
I will say this though, his lack of practicing makes me wonder if his passion has waned.

I doubt it, and largely because the "lack of practicing" is almost always taken out of context when it is thrown around.  From what I understand, he does still practice A LOT.  What he said was (paraphrase) that he no longer does a "typical practice session" where he goes through drills and rudiments and such, and instead practices songs.  And as I recall, the reason he gave is that he doesn't have time for that type of practice because he is involved in so many projects with so many different songs to play, and he is involved in so many other aspects of the music and other things in his life.  So maybe we can argue that he might lack passion for a certain type of practice session.  But I highly doubt he has lost his passion for drumming or for music.  I think what he describes is natural.  Most people who have done a job for over 30 years do the job much differently at that point in their career than someone who is just starting out or is somewhere in their first decade.  There usually isn't much of a need to keep practicing the basics anymore. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 22, 2022, 10:05:27 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

I agree with a lot of this but also disagree with a fair amount.  I don't want to see James performing imperfectly if the imperfection is a result of his inability to handle the material.

Comparisons may be unfair, but I think this one is apt.  Ray Alder of Fates Warning and and was a contemporary of James.  Their vocal styles are and always have been quite similar.  Ray is a few years younger (and, like James, not the original singer for the band).  I saw FW four times between 1989-94.  The first time, Ray was bad.  I met the band in the parking lot, and Ray was smoking (i.e., actively trying to damage his instrument).  JLB never did that, but he did suffer the well known vocal chord injury in the mid-'90s.  After the 1994 show, I didn't see FW again until 2010 and then again in 2013.  The 2010 show was a reunion of the lineup from their best known album Parallels, and the 2013 show was in support of their first new release in nine years.  I had never heard Ray sound better than he did in 2010 and 2013.  Listen to FW's 2018 live release, and he sounds incredible.  Why?  I assume part of it is that he no longer smokes, but he also re-wrote the vocal lines that have higher parts that he can't hit anymore.  He sung flawlessly, and I've NEVER heard anyone object to the re-written vocal parts.  James should be doing this but, AFAIK, isn't.  Instead, they tune down and pipe in recorded vocals to cover and support James.  I simply do not understand why they wouldn't take the time to re-write vocal lines so that James can continue to shine.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 22, 2022, 11:01:41 AM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 09:06:13 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 12:23:48 PM
There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.

How much more do they want him to progress? It's not like we go into a new MP song and go, "Oh god, 9/16 time to 7/8 time to 13/8 time again?! Why doesn't he try...."

I've heard some of these new prog band that try to throw in dozens of time signatures for the sake of progginess and it bores me. Portnoy is doing just fine.

I will say this though, his lack of practicing makes me wonder if his passion has waned. It doesn't affect his performance and I really can't judge his writing other than SoA which has a lot of really great moments, but I wonder if he had the choice to do it all over again if he would still choose drums?

I think the point made here originally wasn't that Mike P isn't good anymore, but that he couldn't (accurately) perform Mike M's drum parts live without REALLY trying to. Best example of this? Derek Sherinian's Apocalypse 1470 B.C. (originally performed by Virgil Donati, a much more "technical" drummer than MP, and more similar to MM in that regard) performed by PSMS. Mike simplified that polyrhythmic pattern a lot while performing it live. Could he have done a better job if he took enough time to do it, specially considering they played it for a whole tour? I'd say so. Same thing applies here to Derek, who I'm sure had a lot of practicing to do to play Acid Rain properly :P (and he did).

BTW, this is a completely different scenario to the recent comments from Mark Zonder who said Mike couldn't play his drum parts accurately, but that was for a last minute one-off fill-in gig. Very different case.

Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

Me too, and I think most people here would say the same. But the recent "controversy" here hasn't been because of him performing imperfectly, but because he seems to be trying to hide behind backing tracks to give a false sense of perfect performance, at least during a section from BITS. That's a completely different thing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 11:15:08 AM
I'm out of my depth because I haven't seen any DT show where I was convinced the vocals were piped, and the last time I did see DT (The Astonishing) I thought James was fine.

Having said that, I've seen many shows recently where the vocals were undoubtedly live, and undoubtedly something lesser than the pristine recorded studio versions.   Michael Schenker is one such example; The Cult and Iron Maiden were others; I wouldn't trade any of those shows for perfect vocals by some no name. 


And not a huge point, but I can't let it pass:  The Deep Purple point depends on which change you mean; they improved their station with the move from Rod Evans to Ian Gillan, much the same way that Maiden improved from Di'Anno to Dickinson, or DT improved from Charlie to James.  With Gillan, they were one of the bigger bands in the world, and did just fine changing from Gillan to Coverdale.  They floundered when Blackmore lost interest, not because of the switch in singer.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2022, 11:44:50 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 11:15:08 AM
I'm out of my depth because I haven't seen any DT show where I was convinced the vocals were piped, and the last time I did see DT (The Astonishing) I thought James was fine.

This is also my experience. I've seen the allegations about lipsyncing on BitS, but I would want to see better evidence than cell phone videos and hear James's response before passing judgment. I do wish they would throw out the backing tracks entirely, but there's a real difference between a backing vocal and a lead vocal in that connection.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 22, 2022, 10:05:27 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

I agree with a lot of this but also disagree with a fair amount.  I don't want to see James performing imperfectly if the imperfection is a result of his inability to handle the material.

Comparisons may be unfair, but I think this one is apt.  Ray Alder of Fates Warning and and was a contemporary of James.  Their vocal styles are and always have been quite similar.  Ray is a few years younger (and, like James, not the original singer for the band).  I saw FW four times between 1989-94.  The first time, Ray was bad.  I met the band in the parking lot, and Ray was smoking (i.e., actively trying to damage his instrument).  JLB never did that, but he did suffer the well known vocal chord injury in the mid-'90s.  After the 1994 show, I didn't see FW again until 2010 and then again in 2013.  The 2010 show was a reunion of the lineup from their best known album Parallels, and the 2013 show was in support of their first new release in nine years.  I had never heard Ray sound better than he did in 2010 and 2013.  Listen to FW's 2018 live release, and he sounds incredible. 

I cannot agree at all that he sounds incredible. He sounds fine and I'm not a huge Fates Warning fan so I dont have a ton of skin in the game but I just don't think this is a great comparison.

BTW, James does alter some of the lines now and did quite a bit for the I&W 2017 tour. I think they sound pretty good and don't mind it at all.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on February 22, 2022, 10:05:27 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

I agree with a lot of this but also disagree with a fair amount.  I don't want to see James performing imperfectly if the imperfection is a result of his inability to handle the material.

Comparisons may be unfair, but I think this one is apt.  Ray Alder of Fates Warning and and was a contemporary of James.  Their vocal styles are and always have been quite similar.  Ray is a few years younger (and, like James, not the original singer for the band).  I saw FW four times between 1989-94.  The first time, Ray was bad.  I met the band in the parking lot, and Ray was smoking (i.e., actively trying to damage his instrument).  JLB never did that, but he did suffer the well known vocal chord injury in the mid-'90s.  After the 1994 show, I didn't see FW again until 2010 and then again in 2013.  The 2010 show was a reunion of the lineup from their best known album Parallels, and the 2013 show was in support of their first new release in nine years.  I had never heard Ray sound better than he did in 2010 and 2013.  Listen to FW's 2018 live release, and he sounds incredible. 

I cannot agree at all that he sounds incredible. He sounds fine and I'm not a huge Fates Warning fan so I dont have a ton of skin in the game but I just don't think this is a great comparison.

BTW, James does alter some of the lines now and did quite a bit for the I&W 2017 tour. I think they sound pretty good and don't mind it at all.

And some people didn't take all too well with him changing those vocal parts.

I wouldn't go to the lengths to say that the band should not play certain songs if JLB can't hit those notes. I wouldn't mind if he changes up the melodies to better suit his vocal style, while still keeping in key with the song. I may not agree with the choices he makes, but I don't care much because there is more to the song then JLB's vocals.

I didn't and don't really care if the band/JLB decides to plug in vocals while JLB mimes to give his vocals enough time to rest so he can actually hit the more tougher notes live. For me, as long as the music is still live, I don't care if the vocals are not. It's due to how difficult it is to sing consistently from night to night, compared to an instrument that is easy to properly keep in tune night to night.

One good example of a struggling vocalist would be Joe Walsh. Look at what Kansas as a band decided to do, and they sound amazing now. At least JLB isn't that bad.

It's also how the band perceives how the audience listens to the band. If they perceive the audience treats them as musical virtuosos who are perfect at their craft of music, their live shows must reflect that precision, this includes the vocals. I feel if the the band and the audience recognizes that the vocals of JLB are not how they used to be due to whatever, could be the effects of aging, who knows but JLB, then the band wouldn't resort to piping in vocals, and letting JLB just sing the song however he chooses even if it's lowering the melody down immensely.

But i'm not really invested into this because we do not know the reasons for why they are deciding to do this.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2022, 12:50:04 PM

I didn't and don't really care if the band/JLB decides to plug in vocals while JLB mimes to give his vocals enough time to rest so he can actually hit the more tougher notes live. For me, as long as the music is still live, I don't care if the vocals are not. It's due to how difficult it is to sing consistently from night to night, compared to an instrument that is easy to properly keep in tune night to night.



Totally agree (as long as its not too much). Miming the F# would be shitty. But lightly singing to a backing track to a part that is not all that vocally challenging to give yourself enough air to sing the next line, eh, not ideal but whatever.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
This will be my thirteenth DT concert since going to see Queensryche with my wife in '03, and then somehow being smitten with THIS band.

My fourth time cohosting a preshow in a few weeks in DC.

And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Lonk on February 22, 2022, 02:26:16 PM
Well, and with that I guess I should really stay out of this part of the forum for the next 2 weeks. Setlist has been spoiled enough already.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 22, 2022, 05:53:51 PM
I don't know how controversial this is, but I wanted to share: I was just listening to the Happy Holidays release, and when Peruvian Skies started, I literally thought I was suddenly listening to Metallica's Bleeding Me, even though I knew I was listening to DT. I don't think the song is "Pink Floyd + Metallica" as it is often described to be; I think it's straight up two sides of Metallica.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Skeever on February 22, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
Quote from: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
This will be my thirteenth DT concert since going to see Queensryche with my wife in '03, and then somehow being smitten with THIS band.

My fourth time cohosting a preshow in a few weeks in DC.

And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.

Maybe you owe it to yourself to experience these songs live before you write off their inclusion in a setlist.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 07:09:51 PM
Quote from: Skeever on February 22, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
Quote from: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
This will be my thirteenth DT concert since going to see Queensryche with my wife in '03, and then somehow being smitten with THIS band.

My fourth time cohosting a preshow in a few weeks in DC.

And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.

Maybe you owe it to yourself to experience these songs live before you write off their inclusion in a setlist.

My thoughts exactly. They may have been played before, but this could very likely be the last time some of them are played. Nothing in this set is a commonly played or an overplayed song. Yeah, you may not like all of them, but it is what it is. My show is less than a month away and I can’t wait!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on February 22, 2022, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 07:09:51 PM
Quote from: Skeever on February 22, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
Quote from: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
This will be my thirteenth DT concert since going to see Queensryche with my wife in '03, and then somehow being smitten with THIS band.

My fourth time cohosting a preshow in a few weeks in DC.

And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.

Maybe you owe it to yourself to experience these songs live before you write off their inclusion in a setlist.

My thoughts exactly. They may have been played before, but this could very likely be the last time some of them are played. Nothing in this set is a commonly played or an overplayed song. Yeah, you may not like all of them, but it is what it is. My show is less than a month away and I can’t wait!

Dream Theater is like pizza and sex. It may not all be your favorite, but its all good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 23, 2022, 02:26:01 AM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 22, 2022, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 07:09:51 PM
Quote from: Skeever on February 22, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
Quote from: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
This will be my thirteenth DT concert since going to see Queensryche with my wife in '03, and then somehow being smitten with THIS band.

My fourth time cohosting a preshow in a few weeks in DC.

And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.

Maybe you owe it to yourself to experience these songs live before you write off their inclusion in a setlist.

My thoughts exactly. They may have been played before, but this could very likely be the last time some of them are played. Nothing in this set is a commonly played or an overplayed song. Yeah, you may not like all of them, but it is what it is. My show is less than a month away and I can’t wait!

Dream Theater is like pizza and sex. It may not all be your favorite, but its all good.

Strange, yet perfect analogy.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 23, 2022, 06:37:26 AM
Not all pizza is good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 23, 2022, 07:53:16 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 23, 2022, 06:37:26 AM
Not all pizza is good.

But she said pizza AND sex.  That's a combo that can't be beat (though I can't say I've actually ever eaten pizza while having sex). 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 23, 2022, 08:17:11 AM
Not all pizza, not all sex, and not all DT is good.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 23, 2022, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: DragonAttack on February 22, 2022, 02:12:20 PM
And......  I truly hate the setlist.  'Misunderstood', 'S2N' or 'Room 137', 'As I Am',.....something, anything or two to change the pace throughout the show, that hasn't been played, would have been a treat.

Instead...it's waaaay too much of 'View' and too many 12-18 minute tracks that seem to be somewhat of a nightmare to remember.  Yeah, I'll enjoy the experience, but not the setlist.

I get not caring for a set list, but this is an odd bunch of complaints.  They're touring in support of View, so it doesn't seem at all unusual that about 40% of the set list would be songs from that album.  Also, the ONLY song in the set list in the 12-18 minute range is TMOLS (if you don't like TMOLS, then maybe that's too many; I'm not a fan of the song, but it worked well live).  The first three songs are all heavy but also are different.  If Endless Sacrifice, About to Crash and TMOLS aren't changes of pace, I don't know what means, and TCOT has several internal changes of pace.


Quote from: geeeemo on February 22, 2022, 09:10:36 PM
Dream Theater is like pizza and sex. It may not all be your favorite, but its all good.

Some people put anchovies on pizza and Chicago-style pizza exists.  Dream Theater put out songs like New Millennium, The Great Debate and Repentance.  As far as sex, well...if you've never had bad sex, then kudos to you, but I can assure you that bad sex exists.   :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: svisser on February 23, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
Quote from: 425 on February 22, 2022, 05:53:51 PM
I don't know how controversial this is, but I wanted to share: I was just listening to the Happy Holidays release, and when Peruvian Skies started, I literally thought I was suddenly listening to Metallica's Bleeding Me, even though I knew I was listening to DT. I don't think the song is "Pink Floyd + Metallica" as it is often described to be; I think it's straight up two sides of Metallica.

The first time I heard that song I thought this as well. Not a bad thing. I think both DT and Metallica were trying on the grunge thing at this point. I  like how they break into Enter Sandman for the last part of the song when they play live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: svisser on February 23, 2022, 11:46:21 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

I used to be very critical of James but not anymore. After awhile I realized that he is the voice of DT and it would be weird to see someone else up there. He was on Images and Words and Scenes From A Memory, not someone else.

There are countless famous bands with singers that have aged horribly, but true fans don't care about that. The band they grew up with is what they want to see. Simple as that.

This sounds cheesy but the last time I saw them was 2014 in Vancouver. James was pretty decent the whole night. After the show when they were doing the curtain call, I was in my seat in row 5 when James looked right at me and gave me the metal horns. I could have cared less how good he sounded that night. It was James Labrie saluting me!! Like, holy shit. It's ike a god comes down to your level to say hello. I will never forget that moment. I am even tearing up and getting goosebumps typing about it.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 23, 2022, 11:54:45 AM
That's a great story!

You can also tell from James's interviews how seriously he takes his craft. His interview (https://youtu.be/pItFsa8gRQo) with Elizabeth Zharoff was especially great in this regard, since she got him to open up about a lot of the more technical side of singing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: crystalstars17 on February 23, 2022, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: svisser on February 23, 2022, 11:46:21 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 22, 2022, 08:25:30 AM
As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

I used to be very critical of James but not anymore. After awhile I realized that he is the voice of DT and it would be weird to see someone else up there. He was on Images and Words and Scenes From A Memory, not someone else.

There are countless famous bands with singers that have aged horribly, but true fans don't care about that. The band they grew up with is what they want to see. Simple as that.

This sounds cheesy but the last time I saw them was 2014 in Vancouver. James was pretty decent the whole night. After the show when they were doing the curtain call, I was in my seat in row 5 when James looked right at me and gave me the metal horns. I could have cared less how good he sounded that night. It was James Labrie saluting me!! Like, holy shit. It's ike a god comes down to your level to say hello. I will never forget that moment. I am even tearing up and getting goosebumps typing about it.

I'm tearing up too just reading your post! I'll never forget what it was like to meet him.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ErHaO on February 27, 2022, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on February 22, 2022, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 22, 2022, 12:50:04 PM

I didn't and don't really care if the band/JLB decides to plug in vocals while JLB mimes to give his vocals enough time to rest so he can actually hit the more tougher notes live. For me, as long as the music is still live, I don't care if the vocals are not. It's due to how difficult it is to sing consistently from night to night, compared to an instrument that is easy to properly keep in tune night to night.



Totally agree (as long as its not too much). Miming the F# would be shitty. But lightly singing to a backing track to a part that is not all that vocally challenging to give yourself enough air to sing the next line, eh, not ideal but whatever.

To me singing is not about hitting that highest note in the piece. If you need to take a pause during a song in order to hit the next note, it means you can't sing that section. Just as much as you can't sing the high note if it was necessary to fake that.

This is how I feel in general, I have not seen the latest DT shows/clips, so am not talking about DT specifically.

Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 27, 2022, 06:02:56 PM
I am torn on this. I am basically of the opinion that:

Quote from: ErHaO on February 27, 2022, 04:12:50 PM
If you need to take a pause during a song in order to hit the next note, it means you can't sing that section.

...but I don't know how much I want any artist to write and record material based on if/how they can perform it live on a regular basis. I get that with rock music, that's part of the deal. But if James said "hey guys, I can totally do that part in Learning to Live in the studio, but there's no way I am pulling that off at a show..." do we want him to belt it out for the album, knowing live we'll get something different? As long is it is "real" when done in the studio, I think I would be cool with that.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 27, 2022, 08:53:49 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 27, 2022, 06:02:56 PM
I am torn on this. I am basically of the opinion that:

Quote from: ErHaO on February 27, 2022, 04:12:50 PM
If you need to take a pause during a song in order to hit the next note, it means you can't sing that section.

...but I don't know how much I want any artist to write and record material based on if/how they can perform it live on a regular basis. I get that with rock music, that's part of the deal. But if James said "hey guys, I can totally do that part in Learning to Live in the studio, but there's no way I am pulling that off at a show..." do we want him to belt it out for the album, knowing live we'll get something different? As long is it is "real" when done in the studio, I think I would be cool with that.

Well, Musicians make songs as a craft. So if the song requires a certain note to achieve a certain sound and quality to the song. I say, why not make the studio the best possible way you imagine the song to be.

For me, I'd rather they do their best in the studio, but live they can try and achieve it, but if not, I can understand why.

Also, I am glad the guys aren't letting thier singer hinder their choice to play a song live.

I find it hilarious though, because of the bands I enjoy that I have seen live, I have never heard my favorite from them at all. I have no idea why, but I tend to like the songs that most bands don't consider playing live.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 05:08:33 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 27, 2022, 08:53:49 PM
I have no idea why, but I tend to like the songs that most bands don't consider playing live.

That's me too; I won't say "never", but certainly, "rarely".
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 28, 2022, 06:01:59 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 05:08:33 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 27, 2022, 08:53:49 PM
I have no idea why, but I tend to like the songs that most bands don't consider playing live.

That's me too; I won't say "never", but certainly, "rarely".

I know this pain all too well. Outside of Metallica and Sum 41, who each play my favorite song by them at every show, I think I’ve seek my favorite song by a band I’m seeing maybe three times, and I’ve never seen Dream Theater and Avenged Sevenfold (the other two bands in my top three with Metallica) play my favorite song by them.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on February 28, 2022, 09:45:57 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)

They should have called him to sing all of Repentance as well. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 10:47:11 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 28, 2022, 09:45:57 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)

They should have called him to sing all of Repentance as well.

To be fair, he *does* appear in the song, but not the way we would've wanted him to be :lol

At least he guested for both of these songs in live performances for Progressive Nation, but I'm still hoping for a real MA guest spot on a DT studio album.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on February 28, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Akerfeldt is the greatest growler off all-time IMO.  Certainly when he was in his prime.  LOVE early Opeth!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 12:42:26 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Akerfeldt is the greatest growler off all-time IMO.  Certainly when he was in his prime.  LOVE early Opeth!

Which is kind of like saying "is the greatest farter of all-time".  I guess it's a skill, but we can't assume it's a skill appreciated by everyone. :)
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on February 28, 2022, 01:08:56 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 12:42:26 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Akerfeldt is the greatest growler off all-time IMO.  Certainly when he was in his prime.  LOVE early Opeth!

Which is kind of like saying "is the greatest farter of all-time".  I guess it's a skill, but we can't assume it's a skill appreciated by everyone. :)
Fair enough.  I know personally, I'm a much better farter than I am growler.  But I recognize it's not easy to be considered "great" at either "skill".  So I have a lot of respect for both LOL
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Setlist Scotty on February 28, 2022, 01:27:19 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 12:42:26 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Akerfeldt is the greatest growler off all-time IMO.  Certainly when he was in his prime.  LOVE early Opeth!
Which is kind of like saying "is the greatest farter of all-time".  I guess it's a skill, but we can't assume it's a skill appreciated by everyone. :)
:rollin Well said Stads! No need for an MA guest appearance, IMO.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on February 28, 2022, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 01:08:56 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 28, 2022, 12:42:26 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)
Akerfeldt is the greatest growler off all-time IMO.  Certainly when he was in his prime.  LOVE early Opeth!

Which is kind of like saying "is the greatest farter of all-time".  I guess it's a skill, but we can't assume it's a skill appreciated by everyone. :)
Fair enough.  I know personally, I'm a much better farter than I am growler.  But I recognize it's not easy to be considered "great" at either "skill".  So I have a lot of respect for both LOL
   :lol
 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on February 28, 2022, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)

I really like Portnoy's vocals on that part, and other than "ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!" I think it is perfect as is.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Architeuthis on February 28, 2022, 02:15:53 PM
Agreed, but I even like the Rooooaaarrrrrrr too.  I get a good chuckle out of it..
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 28, 2022, 03:02:08 PM
I've been a fan of growling vocals ever since I discovered Testament 35 years ago.  Let's face it.  MP doesn't do that section in ANTR any justice at all.  Now, Chuck Billy on the other hand?  He's the father of growling vocals, no contest.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 28, 2022, 03:15:37 PM
I don't think it's fair to judge the MP performance that was used against actual growls, because JP took a hard stance against him doing those. There is a take where MP did actual growls, which I thought were fairly well-done.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on February 28, 2022, 03:20:19 PM
I don't care for bands that growl. We saw the Megadeth tour with Lamb of God, Trivium and Hatebreed. I just cannot get into it at all. Even Mustaines awful vocals are better than growling. (I thoroughly enjoyed myself though. Its great fun to be on the floor of a metal concert with my 6'5" 250 pound son! We stand by or in between mosh pits and he is my buffer :rollin. He's 23 now and starting to look at "taking care of me" signaling to move to his one side or another if he thinks it's getting too wonky)

He also has been getting into Opeth. I have listened with him several times. Just too much for me.

That said, a tad bit of growling here and there for texture, emphasis or to emote I enjoy very much.  I like the Portnoy growls and the roar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Ben_Jamin on February 28, 2022, 03:40:21 PM
After hearing JLB do that part live. I wish we would've gotten a mix of the two. Both MP's rough growl and last Roar, and also JLB's higher rough vocals with his scream. That would've been neat to see both of them really go at it during that section live. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on February 28, 2022, 03:41:39 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on February 28, 2022, 03:40:21 PM
After hearing JLB do that part live. I wish we would've gotten a mix of the two. Both MP's rough growl and last Roar, and also JLB's higher rough vocals with his scream. That would've been neat to see both of them really go at it during that section live.

I agree.


The main problem with ANTR is how long it takes to end.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: 425 on February 28, 2022, 05:19:05 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 28, 2022, 03:20:19 PM
He also has been getting into Opeth. I have listened with him several times. Just too much for me.

That said, a tad bit of growling here and there for texture, emphasis or to emote I enjoy very much.  I like the Portnoy growls and the roar.

It's often said in prog circles that Opeth is the gateway to liking growls, but that was definitely not my experience. I listened to them for many years before I moved beyond the point of only liking it occasionally for, as you say, texture or emphasis. For me, it was Amorphis that did it. I also like Tomi Joutsen's vocals (both clean and harsh) better than Åkerfeldt's.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: pg1067 on February 28, 2022, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: 425 on February 28, 2022, 05:19:05 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 28, 2022, 03:20:19 PM
He also has been getting into Opeth. I have listened with him several times. Just too much for me.

That said, a tad bit of growling here and there for texture, emphasis or to emote I enjoy very much.  I like the Portnoy growls and the roar.

It's often said in prog circles that Opeth is the gateway to liking growls, but that was definitely not my experience. I listened to them for many years before I moved beyond the point of only liking it occasionally for, as you say, texture or emphasis. For me, it was Amorphis that did it. I also like Tomi Joutsen's vocals (both clean and harsh) better than Åkerfeldt's.

They opened for DT on one of the Prog Nation tours, and a couple other bands played before them.  I wasn't familiar with any of the bands.  I think one of the other bands had growly vocals, so my friends and I hung out at the bar.  We went in to check out Opeth, but as soon as the vocalist opened his mouth, we started laughing and headed back to the bar.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on February 28, 2022, 06:12:51 PM
I know for me personally, I didn't care for Opeth for years because of the growls.  Then one day it clicked for me.  I remember the song that did it was Bleak from Blackwater Park.  Once it "clicked", they became one of my favorite bands of all time.  I look back at it now, and realize I just didn't "get it" back then (this was around that Prog Nation tour time).  If it ever does "click" for you - you're in for a hell of a ride!!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on February 28, 2022, 07:08:43 PM
There is no reason that Opeth guy or anyone else should be doing guest spots on any DT material. I shudder to think that 50 years from now, when the prog-metal world looks back at DT's career, they see that the one person who did a guest vocal spot on a song was the dude from Kings X.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: geeeemo on February 28, 2022, 10:25:41 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 06:12:51 PM
I know for me personally, I didn't care for Opeth for years because of the growls.  Then one day it clicked for me.  I remember the song that did it was Bleak from Blackwater Park.  Once it "clicked", they became one of my favorite bands of all time.  I look back at it now, and realize I just didn't "get it" back then (this was around that Prog Nation tour time).  If it ever does "click" for you - you're in for a hell of a ride!!

I will probably keep trying. The ride with DT the last 6 years has been addictive. Yay! A good addiction! I would love for it to happen again. I think that is what happened with my son.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: NoseofNicko on March 01, 2022, 01:36:07 AM
Lmao imagine implying growling isn’t really a skill…
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ErHaO on March 01, 2022, 03:24:27 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 27, 2022, 06:02:56 PM
I am torn on this. I am basically of the opinion that:

Quote from: ErHaO on February 27, 2022, 04:12:50 PM
If you need to take a pause during a song in order to hit the next note, it means you can't sing that section.

...but I don't know how much I want any artist to write and record material based on if/how they can perform it live on a regular basis. I get that with rock music, that's part of the deal. But if James said "hey guys, I can totally do that part in Learning to Live in the studio, but there's no way I am pulling that off at a show..." do we want him to belt it out for the album, knowing live we'll get something different? As long is it is "real" when done in the studio, I think I would be cool with that.

There are many artists that don't sing material as is on the album. And not just older singers doing old material from when they were young. If I look at some of my faves, examples would be Hansi Kursch or Freddie Mercury, who both gave all in the studio and adapted the material differently live and do/did so based on the shape of their voice at the time of performing.

I personally prefer studio albums to be an all in effort. And I realise this will give challenges in a live setting. But out of all solutions to those challenges, faking it is my least preffered option by a long shot.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 01, 2022, 06:14:07 AM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 06:12:51 PM
I know for me personally, I didn't care for Opeth for years because of the growls.  Then one day it clicked for me.  I remember the song that did it was Bleak from Blackwater Park.  Once it "clicked", they became one of my favorite bands of all time.  I look back at it now, and realize I just didn't "get it" back then (this was around that Prog Nation tour time).  If it ever does "click" for you - you're in for a hell of a ride!!
I hated the growls for the longest time, I only really liked Damnation. I then got into a band called Fair to Midland that had some growls but that was the catalyst where it made explore other music and have it click for me as well.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: genome on March 01, 2022, 06:43:47 AM
I'll never forget putting on Ghost Reveries and the intro to Ghost of Perdition scaring the shit out of me.

I loved growling vocals after that  :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 01, 2022, 07:09:23 AM
Quote from: NoseofNicko on March 01, 2022, 01:36:07 AM
Lmao imagine implying growling isn’t really a skill…

I'm not sure anyone did that.

I know for me, there's no disrespect, it's just not for me.  There's no "getting into it", or anything that sort of implies that it's my deficiency or some failure to understand.  I don't give a ton of thought to what I like or don't like.  I give it what I feel is a fair shake and if it clicks, it clicks. If it doesn't, it doesn't.  Growls have not. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 01, 2022, 09:08:19 AM
Growls are very much a hit-or-miss thing for me.  I love how Opeth uses used them, but in some other bands it is just an impediment for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: crystalstars17 on March 01, 2022, 09:12:58 AM
Growl vocals sound painful to me but I know there's a technique (sorry, I don't know anything about this one!) for doing it safely. My brother was in a band where he 'sang' this way and he actually saw a teacher who worked with him on how to produce that kind of sound without damage to the vocal cords. It has something to do with using the false cords and vocal fry, but beyond that IDK. I kinda don't want to get my head around this one!

It's not something I mind though as part of the right kind of music.

It's definitely not something I want to hear James attempting, though!  :omg:
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: ReaperKK on March 01, 2022, 09:30:53 AM
So no covers of this song for JLB? :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnQ02FBsLQ :lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on March 01, 2022, 11:59:34 AM
Quote from: genome on March 01, 2022, 06:43:47 AM
I'll never forget putting on Ghost Reveries and the intro to Ghost of Perdition scaring the shit out of me.

I loved growling vocals after that  :lol
Ghost Reveries is one of my favorite albums of all time!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Kram on March 01, 2022, 12:02:29 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 28, 2022, 10:25:41 PM
Quote from: Kram on February 28, 2022, 06:12:51 PM
I know for me personally, I didn't care for Opeth for years because of the growls.  Then one day it clicked for me.  I remember the song that did it was Bleak from Blackwater Park.  Once it "clicked", they became one of my favorite bands of all time.  I look back at it now, and realize I just didn't "get it" back then (this was around that Prog Nation tour time).  If it ever does "click" for you - you're in for a hell of a ride!!

I will probably keep trying. The ride with DT the last 6 years has been addictive. Yay! A good addiction! I would love for it to happen again. I think that is what happened with my son.
Here's the song that finally made the growls click with me.  Check it out, maybe you'll like it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zdg4Sbefg4
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: SeRoX on March 20, 2022, 01:50:59 PM
James should do some narrator on films or series. And I can see him doing audiobooks. His talking voice is just amazing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TheBarstoolWarrior on March 20, 2022, 05:06:36 PM
growls can be good when used like a special effect. But there are a LOT of bands that I would probably listen to but for growling for 90% of their music. I did love how Opeth used them a while ago. The lead singer also had a great 'clean' voice and used both so maybe that's why it worked for me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: wolfking on March 21, 2022, 07:19:13 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on February 28, 2022, 09:20:10 AM
I think they should've actually called Mikael Akerfeldt to do the "day after day" section in ANTR as Mike originally wanted. I'm not a fan of growling vocals but would've preferred that to what we actually got :)

I agree.  Hearing that full section with proper harsh vocals would have been excellent.  Mikaels roar at the end too would have been special.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 21, 2022, 07:56:02 PM
A thousand times no. When I listen to DT, one of the main reasons I do so is to hear James sing. There is no reason that a) any section of a DT song should ever be growled, and b) any other singer should be brought on to sing any part that James "cannot."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 21, 2022, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 21, 2022, 07:56:02 PM
A thousand times no. When I listen to DT, one of the main reasons I do so is to hear James sing. There is no reason that a) any section of a DT song should ever be growled, and b) any other singer should be brought on to sing any part that James "cannot."

I agree 100%.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Stadler on March 22, 2022, 07:23:57 AM
Quote from: TAC on March 21, 2022, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 21, 2022, 07:56:02 PM
A thousand times no. When I listen to DT, one of the main reasons I do so is to hear James sing. There is no reason that a) any section of a DT song should ever be growled, and b) any other singer should be brought on to sing any part that James "cannot."

I agree 100%.

I lean this way too.  I don't mind guest vocals once in a while - though the best example of that in the catalogue, Lines In The Sand, is ruined by the guest vocal - but for all his ups and downs James is a large reasons why I'm a fan.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: MinistroRaven on March 22, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
Quote from: jadiggerdt on February 20, 2022, 04:38:55 AM
https://youtu.be/5bF34XA_MKk

Again he post his agenda vs James

From blabber mouth:

Quote
DREAM THEATER's JAMES LABRIE Lashes Out Over Lip-Sync Allegations: 'F**k You'

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-james-labrie-lashes-out-over-lip-sync-allegations-fk-you

I work for BB now, Mark!

I just think there was no need to drop the F bomb to address the allegations, just move on, and keep doing what you are doing Labrie.

Or he could have just made a pre recorded statement and lip synched to it pretty bad on purpose, lol
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Dream Team on March 22, 2022, 07:44:51 AM
Pertinent remarks, as they pertain to DT:

Former SKID ROW singer Sebastian Bach has previously said that he is "one of the last people" who are still not using pre-recorded tracks at their live shows. "I don't know how much longer I can say to you that I don't use tapes onstage, because I don't, and I never have," he told Consequence Of Sound. "And I still don't. When I have opening bands, and they're using tapes, and then I come out and I don't use tapes… sometimes, it makes me feel stupid, because I'm like, 'What am I doing, when all these kids half my age can come onstage and do all of my moves, but they don't have to warm up for an hour before the show, or weeks, before the first show?' Sometimes, I'm like, 'Why do I even bother, if the public is so used to this other way?' It's becoming very rare to come see a good band that's actually a real band — that's not miming or doing silly moves while a tape is running. It just becomes more rare as the years go on."

In 2019, IRON MAIDEN guitarist Adrian Smith said that he doesn't "agree" with certain rock artists relying on pre-recorded tracks during their live performances. "I tell you what, I see it with a lot of younger bands, and I don't think it's a good thing at all," he told the New York Post. "I mean, the music is getting too technical now. You have computerized recording systems, which we use, but I think we use them more for convenience than because we need to. We've toured with a couple bands that use tapes — it's not real. You're supposed to play live; it should be live. I don't agree with using tapes … I think it's a real shame."

One musician who has been open about his band's used of taped vocals during live performances is MÖTLEY CRÜE bassist Nikki Sixx, who said: "We've used technology since '87." He added the group employed "sequencers, sub tones, background vox tracks, plus background singers and us. [MÖTLEY CRÜE also taped] stuff we can't tour with, like cello parts in ballads, etc.... We love it and don't hide it. It's a great tool to fill out the sound."

In a 2014 interview, MÖTLEY CRÜE guitarist Mick Mars admitted that he wasn't comfortable with the fact that his band used pre-recorded backing vocals in its live shows, claiming that he preferred to watch groups whose performances are delivered entirely live. "I don't like it," he said. "I think a band like ours… I have to say '60s bands were my favorite — '60s and '70s bands — because they were real, like, three-piece bands or four-piece bands, and they just got up there and kicked it up. Made a mistake? So what? Sounded a little bit empty here or there? So what? It's the bigness and the rawness and the people that developed and wrote the songs and made them and presented them. To me, that's what I really like. I mean, I could put on a MÖTLEY CD and play with it all day long. I don't wanna do that."
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 22, 2022, 09:49:12 AM
My controversial opinion…I’ve never been bothered by the sound of Dream Theater . That includes it’s drum sound. Not at all.

And…I saw DT three nights ago, and I had no problem with James’s performance. I never thought “oh, I don’t think he’s singing that part”. Yeah there are some vocals piped in during the harmonies. JP was never as strong a backup singer as MP. And he was hit or miss. Did it bother me, or take away from the experience? Nope. Did I feel cheated? Nope.

I guess it’s just controversial how easy it is to please me.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: crystalstars17 on March 22, 2022, 11:05:15 AM
My controversial opinion:

I like the modern, glossy production. If that means backing and/or click tracks, then so be it. It's still LIVE to me because they are still singing/playing live, and a few feet in front of me no less. The world's seriously greatest musicians. I am grateful!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: bosk1 on March 22, 2022, 11:35:47 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on March 22, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
Or he could have just made a pre recorded statement and lip synched to it pretty bad on purpose, lol

:rollin  That would have been amazing. 
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Madman Shepherd on March 22, 2022, 11:50:21 AM
Quote from: crystalstars17 on March 22, 2022, 11:05:15 AM
My controversial opinion:

I like the modern, glossy production. If that means backing and/or click tracks, then so be it. It's still LIVE to me because they are still singing/playing live, and a few feet in front of me no less. The world's seriously greatest musicians. I am grateful!

I agree. I think their live show improved drastically after Mangini joined. I don't think it's necessarily because of Mangini, but they really concentrated on the presentation of the show. Starting with the ADTOE tour they had those weird (but cool) cube shaped screens and a more sophisticated light show. Before then I always felt like their shows were more low budget. Occasionally they would try to be higher budget and it seemed like a poor man's version.

Quote from: bosk1 on March 22, 2022, 11:35:47 AM
Quote from: MinistroRaven on March 22, 2022, 07:32:51 AM
Or he could have just made a pre recorded statement and lip synched to it pretty bad on purpose, lol

:rollin  That would have been amazing. 
Oh my god. That would have been some amazing Andy Kaufman stuff right there!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Trav86 on March 22, 2022, 12:02:26 PM
I remember leading up to the ADTOE tour, JP said something along the lines of “we’re going to use an actual production company to design our show. Instead of just us doing it.” And I’m sure that’s what they’ve done since.  It is much more professional now with lights and video created for each song. Before they kept using the same stock videos for different songs. You can’t do what they do now, if the setlist is constantly changing.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: vtgrad on March 22, 2022, 12:58:07 PM
Personally, I tend toward liking both types of shows.  The larger productions shows (like the ones they've had since ADTOE as discussed) and the stripped down shows (my personal favorite being the 2010 Columbus OH show; GA admission and we were right in front of JP).  Each type of show has it's draws for me.  If I was forced to choose one over the other, I'd honestly choose the stripped down, spit flying, sweat-in-the-eyes show every time.  Making eye contact with JP for the majority of the show (and my wife catching a pick that he basically handed to her) will always stick with me.  I felt like the show was just for us.

Of the polished shows I've seen (at least one or two every tour since TOT), my favorite was likely the DC 2014 show for the Along for the Ride tour.  That show and setlist was just incredible for me!
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: Cool Chris on March 22, 2022, 06:57:10 PM
Possibly super controversial... I generally do not care for some of James' vocals on that 1993 bootleg CD. Maybe he felt like pushing it up to 110% for the live shows at the time, but as I said elsewhere, he delivered an A+ performance for I&W, if he just hit 90% of that live, it would have been magnificent. But in going for that extra 10%, he does his performance and his skills a disservice.
Title: Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
Post by: TAC on March 22, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on March 22, 2022, 06:57:10 PM
Possibly super controversial... I generally do not care for some of James' vocals on that 1993 bootleg CD. Maybe he felt like pushing it up to 110% for the live shows at the time, but as I said elsewhere, he delivered an A+ performance for I&W, if he just hit 90% of that live, it would have been magnificent. But in going for that extra 10%, he does his performance and his skills a disservice.

Even in the I&W and Awake days, James wasn't perfect at every show. I did a big bootleg listening binge a couple of months ago from those tours. Some shows, James was on and some he wasn't.
I can say that they played a ton of shows during this time and there had to be wear and tear. I don't think their accomodations/travel were the greatest in those day. I know when a saw them a few nights later, it was snowing in Boston.