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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Darkes7 on July 12, 2009, 08:08:36 PM
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There has been plenty of appreciation threads around recently, so I decided it's time to create this one. A great album with many excellent songs and good ideas. But it seems that a lot of people hate it. :-\ So, I'd like to know how many people think like me, and on the other hand - how many don't. To make things even clearer, I decided to make a poll.
I choose option #1, more precisely it's my third favourite, tied with Six Degrees. The Ministry of Lost Souls and Repentance are one of my DT favourites, ITPOE and Constant Motion are great, all the other songs are good. And the cover is nice. :azn:
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A strong album, not on DT top 3 list though.
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i do enjoy this album, but it's not in my top 5. i really love ITPOE and TMOLS a lot.
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I voted for "terrible."
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It's a strong effort. A bit disjointed after three albums that, in each album, felt very much the same across the board in terms of feel and idea, and each of which had some sort of theme or concept (SDOIT's battles personal battles of emotions/feeling/mental issues, TOT's balls-to-the-walls heavy metal, and 8VM's musical/interval concept).
Systematic Chaos has some strong songs on it (ITPOE, TMOLS, Repentance), some very good songs (Constant Motion and TDEN), and a couple average/just-under-par songs (Forsaken and POW). I guess it's no coincidence that the three longest songs happen to appeal to me the most (as I do love my epics and long songs), but it's a bit surprising that the shorter songs didn't really (and still haven't) really latched on to me or really impressed me. I like listening to POW every now and then if I'm in a dance-y sort of mood with it's disco-beat, but that's not TOO often.
I will give DT credit for trying to throw in some new ideas and be a bit more experimental with songs like TDEN, Repentance and POW.
With TDEN, the heavy crunching riffs and distorted vocals really put the :metal into this album, and the lyrics are also pretty f'ing :metal
With Repentance, it instantly brought to mind softer Opeth, Porcupine Tree and some Floydian tones, something that DT has touched on but never made a full-fledged song out of it, and it really appealed to me.
With POW, the band saw itself engaging in more Muse-influence, but this time, adding MP's vocals to the bridge and excluding a guitar solo (gasp!), as well as adding crowd-chants! Very different, very unusual and very NEW for DT at the time.
The longest songs, TMOLS and ITPOE, are more or less DT-by-the-numbers but with a couple twists. Of course, there's always the discussion of JP's manga-inspired fantasy lyrics which, before fans found out what they were based upon, I thought were pretty interesting in of themselves. To find that JP was influenced (or as some would dare say had plagiarized) was a neat tidbit in my eyes. Maybe he was running out of ideas? Or perhaps that's just what he was into at the time? Every lyricist can go through periods of certain inspiration that influences their creative output, many of which have lead to great (or flopped) lyrical concepts (like those of Neil Peart, who's album's lyrics often carry themes throughout based upon his life's experiences, ideologies and feelings).
Despite all of that, I think the fantasy lyrics are fitting to the music presented here. It'd be kind of hard to imagine any other lyrics to the music of "The Dark Eternal Night" or "In The Presence Of Enemies". Overall, I'd say this was a strong effort, but it falls a bit short in my album-rankings due to some feelings about the shorter songs and it's disjointedness. I'd give it a C+/B-, on par with FII, ahead of WDADU, but just under SFAM and TOT (still leaving IAW, Awake, SDOIT and 8VM above them).
-Marc.
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Shit sandwich.
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Shit sandwich.
You can't print that!
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I enjoyed this album when it came out, but I haven't felt any urge at all to listen to it in months
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Recently, I've come to like this album a bit more than even a few weeks ago. I don't know, it's an album that, while in the bottom three albums of theirs, is an album that is still somewhat good, but not with much replay value. It's just a fun album for the most part, but the kind of fun you reserve once a month (like skinny dipping in your neighbor's pool).
Track ratings:
ITPOE 1: Awesome. 8/10
Forsaken: Meh, good solo, good harmonies. 5/10
Constant Motion: I love it 8.5/10
TDEN: Fun that can be handled any time. 8/10
Repentance: My favorite off of the album 9/10
PoW: Not as bad as people say, but it's still. . .off. 5/10
TMOLS: Huge disappointment overall for an "mini-epc" song. 3/10
ITPOE 2: By itself, part 2 is awesome in some parts, and meh in others. 7/10
I'd rate this album as a whole as a 6.5/10. Not necessarily bad, but they are capable of much better music. Yet, they are the songwriters, not me, as music is subjective.
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A Strong Album. My 3rd favorite DT album. I don't know why this album gets SO much hate! :facepalm:
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I picked for option #2
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I chose strong album. Forsaken is a good song, CM and TDEN are probably top 10 for me, PoW sucks, Repentance is a good song (with the only problem being that it drags a bit), TMOLS has some great sections even if the instrumental section is a bit long, and I love ITPOE. Compared to other DT albums it's lower down, but I still consider it a pretty good album.
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Definately a strong album for me. The only songs I don't really care for are Forsaken and PoW.
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It's a strong effort. A bit disjointed after three albums that, in each album, felt very much the same across the board in terms of feel and idea, and each of which had some sort of theme or concept (SDOIT's battles personal battles of emotions/feeling/mental issues, TOT's balls-to-the-walls heavy metal, and 8VM's musical/interval concept).
Systematic Chaos has some strong songs on it (ITPOE, TMOLS, Repentance), some very good songs (Constant Motion and TDEN), and a couple average/just-under-par songs (Forsaken and POW). I guess it's no coincidence that the three longest songs happen to appeal to me the most (as I do love my epics and long songs), but it's a bit surprising that the shorter songs didn't really (and still haven't) really latched on to me or really impressed me. I like listening to POW every now and then if I'm in a dance-y sort of mood with it's disco-beat, but that's not TOO often.
I will give DT credit for trying to throw in some new ideas and be a bit more experimental with songs like TDEN, Repentance and POW.
With TDEN, the heavy crunching riffs and distorted vocals really put the :metal into this album, and the lyrics are also pretty f'ing :metal
With Repentance, it instantly brought to mind softer Opeth, Porcupine Tree and some Floydian tones, something that DT has touched on but never made a full-fledged song out of it, and it really appealed to me.
With POW, the band saw itself engaging in more Muse-influence, but this time, adding MP's vocals to the bridge and excluding a guitar solo (gasp!), as well as adding crowd-chants! Very different, very unusual and very NEW for DT at the time.
The longest songs, TMOLS and ITPOE, are more or less DT-by-the-numbers but with a couple twists. Of course, there's always the discussion of JP's manga-inspired fantasy lyrics which, before fans found out what they were based upon, I thought were pretty interesting in of themselves. To find that JP was influenced (or as some would dare say had plagiarized) was a neat tidbit in my eyes. Maybe he was running out of ideas? Or perhaps that's just what he was into at the time? Every lyricist can go through periods of certain inspiration that influences their creative output, many of which have lead to great (or flopped) lyrical concepts (like those of Neil Peart, who's album's lyrics often carry themes throughout based upon his life's experiences, ideologies and feelings).
Despite all of that, I think the fantasy lyrics are fitting to the music presented here. It'd be kind of hard to imagine any other lyrics to the music of "The Dark Eternal Night" or "In The Presence Of Enemies". Overall, I'd say this was a strong effort, but it falls a bit short in my album-rankings due to some feelings about the shorter songs and it's disjointedness. I'd give it a C+/B-, on par with FII, ahead of WDADU, but just under SFAM and TOT (still leaving IAW, Awake, SDOIT and 8VM above them).
-Marc.
Dude, that's pretty much how I feel about the order of the albums and this album (SC).
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I voted for the first alternative, i'd say i rank SC the 4th best DT album.
ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, TDEN and Repentance are all masterpieces imo. (maybe a bit less on TDEN :P)
POW has a somewhat cool chorus imo, and TMOLS is really the only track imo that stands out as a bit weaker.
Overall, a 9/10 album.
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their worst album
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Wow... I'm pretty surprised to be honest, after reading a bit here (and not just here) I expected options #3 and #4 would be dominating, and I see this isn't the case.
I like it a lot that they took a pretty experimental approach with SC and did some things they had never done before - and I guess this is also the reason some people dislike this album, as it's probably a faster evolution than in case of any of their previous albums (ok, not counting WDADU->I&W :lol ). But in general, I remember I loved it at the first few listens (though the song it took me the most time to get used to was ITPOE Pt. 1 - I liked part 2 instantly, especially the awesome chorus, but couldn't get used to part 1), and the feeling hasn't really changed since. I was pretty surprised to find out a few months later that there's a lot of people who consider it to be one of the worst albums.
As for the two "weird songs" - The Dark Eternal Night is an awesome song when all I look for is fun, though this is progmetal fun :P it's great with all its insane "wankery", weird ideas and the lyrics which really makes me feel like singing along. Prophets of War - though in general I think it's one of the weaker songs, it still has some very nice - and new - ideas, and I remember that for a few days I could seriously play the song over and over because of the great guitar in the chorus. And finally Constant Motion - it was instant love for me. Together with Repentance it's become my favourite after the first listen, and I'm aware of all the Metallica influence and everything, but this song is really awesome - they said they wanted it to feel like "driving", and it really works. It feels moving forward all the time, and the instrumental part (especially the beginning with the piano) is one of my favourites. And finally... it's a real killer live. I've heard it live twice, and it was an unforgettable experience both times. :)
Glad to see I'm not alone in thinking this is a great album, then.
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I really think SC is a strong album, since pretty much every song has some part i remember.
ITPOE has that amazing DT-intro, Forsaken has the catchy chorus, Constant Motion has that evil riff and an amazing chorus. I also love the soloing on that song. :)
TDEN has apart from the killer intro riff, fast beats and the chorus, that piano part (that sounds like it's from a western movie).
Then the list goes on :P
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Love it to pieces!!!
Awakened my interest in the band.
ITPOE 1 & 2 stunning
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SC is a strong album, but not one of their best. I think PoW bumps it down a few notches.
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'Tis not strong. 'Tis terrible.
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You 'Tis wrong
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I really like In The Presence Of Enemies, Pt. 1 and Repentance.
I think Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and ITPOEp2 are all very fun songs.
I have no particular issue with Forsaken, but it is a little generic. Love the second verse and guitar solo though.
The Ministry Of Lost Souls starts and ends strongly, but everything in between contains some of the most vapid and uninteresting material Dream Theater has ever written. Hell of an intro and outro though.
Prophets Of War is.... Well, I give them credit for trying something new.
Overall, not even close to my favorite record, but it's certainly worth a listen every now and again.
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It's one of my least favorite DT albums. That doesn't keep it from being awesome nonetheless! I love ITPE the most, cool to see they're still playing part 1 live this tour.
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It's OK. There is some strong stuff, and some not-so-strong stuff. One thing it has going for it is that many of the songs are fun to sing along with, in a way that many DT albums aren't.
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Pretty bad.
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Certainly not one of DT's best, but still a strong album. The only song I'm not a fan of is POW, and even that has a good bit (the really crunchy version of the chorus riff at the end). The rest of the songs range from good to excellent. Aspects of the album aren't great, but it has some excellent moments, and as hef said, it's a really good album for singing along to. I definitely consider it DT's most fun album.
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Dream Theater are the only band that I know that I like every single song that they have ever done. Yup.
And no, i'm not a fanboi, they are only my third favourite band after all.
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Voted pretty bad, though I'm curious as to why an appreciation thread has any negative options.
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Every appreciation thread has had some, afaik. And here positive opinions definitely dominate, which is a pleasant surprise for me.
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Definitely a solid album...
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this is a great album
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Strong album...
I used to love it very much but it didn't age very well for me like for many other people. However I listened to it recently after a long break and I have to say that I really enjoyed it. So I think it's great album. I will never get "hate" for this album I can get disliking but why hate?
Voted pretty bad, though I'm curious as to why an appreciation thread has any negative options.
I agree this is more a "let's rate SC I think it's a great album" thread than appreciation thread but it doesn't matter that much
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OK, so I created v. 1.1 of the thread name. ;)
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Prophets Of War is.... Well, I give them credit for trying something new.
I voted average, but to be perfectly honest, I think every Dream Theater album is a strong album. I tend to rank Systematic Chaos eighth on my list, above Octavarium and Falling into Infinity respectively. Systematic Chaos gets way too much hate around here; while a few songs may not be as great as some of Dream Theater's others (see above quote), the vast majority of them are solid and dynamic tracks.
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I voted average. In terms of DT, this album is not more than average.
Track Rankings:
ITPOE Pt1 : 8/10- Best song on the album. Really rockin and progressive. Great intro solo
Forsaken : 4/10- My second least favourite. Nothing really memorable at all.
CM : 6/10- Not bad for a prog single, but still doesn't impress. Terrible vocal melodies.
TDEN : 8/10- Very cheesy, but fun song. Love the instrumental section. Keeps me interested.
Repentance : 7/10- Fairly boring. the second half of it lasts too long. The little guitar/bass fills in between each section of lyrics in the verses really break the flow of the song, and I feel it would be a lot better without them.
PoW : 4/10- Not a very good song at all. Only thing I enjoy are the queen-like vocal harmonies done by MP.
TMOLS : 7.5/10- I like it. Instrumental section and all it's not a bad tune. A definite redeeming quality of the album.
ITPOE Pt2 : 7/10-Many epic/head-banging moments. Fairly boring middle section. Epic ending. A fairly low end "long" DT song.
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That's right - I searched and resurrected!
I am listening to SC right now after Surrounded (in response to bosks's thread), and I'm finding myself really enjoying it a lot. It's just so random and diverse in a way. It's not going to be replacing the classics as my favorite or anything. I'm just getting a lot more enjoyment than usual out of it - a good feeling!
ITPOE 1 is truly a great piece of music imo. :metal
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OK.
I just cut Constant Motion into a 3:37 minute song. AND IT FLOWS!
MIRACLES!
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(https://paxarcana.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/zombie1.jpg)
But yeah, this album does have some pretty solid tracks, even if it is one of Dream Theater's weaker albums on the whole.
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It was the album that got me into DT. I'm proud to call it my favorite.
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It's an average album. Has great songs like Itpoe pt. 1 and Repentence, some mediocre songs like TMOLS and CM, and some just lame songs like everything else.
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One of their best works. Fun, melodic, and highly infectious. Favorites: The Ministry of lost souls, In presence of enemies, Constant motion.
9/10
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I love it. It's my 5th or 6th favourite. I think its great how they made a real different approach which i believe to do with roadrunner. All the songs on the album are very different. Repentance is probaly my favourite from the album. It is just so beautiful and the solo is one of JP's best. So you've also got a few of the heavier songs. TDEN and constant moition. Both are amazing, TDEN is a real :metal song with an awesome instrumental bit. Constant motion has awesome vocals including MP's backings. Then we've also got the ballad, forsaken. Probaly my least favourite, but it still rocks. TMOLS is a very emotional song with awesome lyrics. Alot of people hate POW, but i really like it. It is really an unusual DT song, but i think it works. And then you've got the epic of the album ITPOE. I think it is an epic song with lots of highlights in both parts.
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Pretty bad, but has some good points.
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My least favourite DT record.
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Systematic Chaos isn't bad but I listen to it quite rarely compared to most of the other DT albums, so I voted "average".
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Over the course of about a year, I will say it's average. It's not worse than WDADU for example.
Saying an album is average for DT is saying it's still better than a lot of music to me, though there are a lot of albums by other bands that slay SC.
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Scard, I borrowed the format of your post. I hope you don't mind.
ITPOE Pt1 : 9/10- Fantastic opener. Possibly the best opening song on a DT record (only beat by ANTR)
Forsaken : 8/10- Really cool song. Sort of generic, but doesn't stop it from being a good song.
CM : 9/10- Still one of my favorite DT songs. Fantastic vocals (not a joke)
TDEN : 9/10- Really metal song. Love it.
Repentance : 3/10- Way too long. Most boring song DT has made.
PoW : 8/10- Awesome song. The chant part is really cool, and I really like the opening. Hope to see it live at the one off show (probably won't be at the IM shows).
TMOLS : 9.5/10- Almost perfect, but is just a bit too long. Some of the best lyrics by DT.
ITPOE Pt2 : 8/10 - Not as good as part 1, but really good.
Also for reference, the only two albums that are worse than this by DT are FII and WDADU, which says something about the quality of their music.
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Has great songs like Itpoe pt. 1 and Repentence
Nearly three years later, I think those are definitely the two best songs on SC, although I would say both are very good. I still think SC is the one DT CD that doesn't have at least one truly great DT song.
And I still can't believe that they not only thought "Constant Motion" was good enough to put on a record, but good enough to make a video for and release as a single. That remains, to me, the biggest WTF of their career. I gave it another chance recently, and while the main riff is still rocking and JP's solo is great, the vocal melodies overall are BY FAR the worst of any song they have ever done, IMO.
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Has great songs like Itpoe pt. 1 and Repentence
Nearly three years later, I think those are definitely the two best songs on SC, although I would say both are very good. I still think SC is the one DT CD that doesn't have at least one truly great DT song.
And I still can't believe that they not only thought "Constant Motion" was good enough to put on a record, but good enough to make a video for and release as a single. That remains, to me, the biggest WTF of their career. I gave it another chance recently, and while the main riff is still rocking and JP's solo is great, the vocal melodies overall are BY FAR the worst of any song they have ever done, IMO.
this. but id have to digress and call repentence a fantastic song. it's got mood and atmpsphere that's been lacking sorely since octavarium and before then 6 degrees and falling into infinity.
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And I still can't believe that they not only thought "Constant Motion" was good enough to put on a record, but good enough to make a video for and release as a single. That remains, to me, the biggest WTF of their career. I gave it another chance recently, and while the main riff is still rocking and JP's solo is great, the vocal melodies overall are BY FAR the worst of any song they have ever done, IMO.
My second favorite on the album, just narrowly getting edged out by ITPOE1. I for one am glad they put it on there.
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The first 5 minutes of the CD are god tier. When the chorus riff punches in at about 4:50... (https://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/xg2099/fyeah.jpg)
The closing unison of Enemies: 1 is second only to the unison from In The Name Of God.
Forsaken is a very solid "single" song. Petrucci's pre-chorus fills are what make the song stand out.
The back and forth vocals of Mike and James in Constant Motion are very fun. And I love the steady build style solo.
The Dark Eternal Night is just balls and chunk awesome. And will probably be the last time I will say Myung really stands out.
I have to give them credit for making both a "mellow" and "epic" song in one with Repentance.
Prophets Of War suffers from the political lyrics stigma... so that hurts it... lack of a solo hurts it more.
The Ministry Of Lost Souls is missing something... not sure what. But it is a solid song.
Enemies: 2 is another balls and chunk powerhouse, yet it's one of their weaker closing songs.
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SC and WDADU are in a pillow fight to decide which is my least favorite DT album, with ToT anxioulsy waiting the winner.
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The first 5 minutes of the CD are god tier. When the chorus riff punches in at about 4:50... (https://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/xg2099/fyeah.jpg)
:lol
Definitely the best description.
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Has great songs like Itpoe pt. 1 and Repentence
Nearly three years later, I think those are definitely the two best songs on SC, although I would say both are very good. I still think SC is the one DT CD that doesn't have at least one truly great DT song.
And I still can't believe that they not only thought "Constant Motion" was good enough to put on a record, but good enough to make a video for and release as a single. That remains, to me, the biggest WTF of their career. I gave it another chance recently, and while the main riff is still rocking and JP's solo is great, the vocal melodies overall are BY FAR the worst of any song they have ever done, IMO.
Meh, it's just a stupid metal song. I don't find too much to get upset about with this track, other thank knowing that DT is capable of much better music. It does have cool riffs and a great guitar solo going for it, though. The chorus is alright, too. *shrug*
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I voted for "terrible."
Ditto.
A very forced tangle of bits.
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Those who voted terrible, there's no hope for you. Had you provided an explanation, there may have been a glimmer of hope, but nooooo! :P
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Impressed initially, but, unlike Black Clouds, it got put on the shelf indefinitely after about a month.
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Strong album. I enjoy it every time I listen to it.
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when I think of the album as a whole, I get an empty feeling, but when I hear the individual songs from the album, I love them...
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And I still can't believe that they not only thought "Constant Motion" was good enough to put on a record, but good enough to make a video for and release as a single. That remains, to me, the biggest WTF of their career. I gave it another chance recently, and while the main riff is still rocking and JP's solo is great, the vocal melodies overall are BY FAR the worst of any song they have ever done, IMO.
I don't loathe it like you do, but I definitely dislike it. I love the instrumental section; I just wish they had found a better song to put it in.
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I don't come from a metal background, so, regarding CM, maybe that is why I dislike what antigoon called a "stupid metal song" so much. Hard to say. No one can say I didn't try to like it, though.
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when I think of the album as a whole, I get an empty feeling, but when I hear the individual songs from the album, I love them...
Interesting perspective. The parts are greater than their sum.
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Pretty bad, but has some good points.
Yeah, my vote too. I almost never find myself in the mood for listening to it.
rumborak
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when I think of the album as a whole, I get an empty feeling, but when I hear the individual songs from the album, I love them...
I actually really agree with this a lot. I cringe when i think about listening to the album but when a song comes up on my CPU at random I usually listen (Unless it's Constant Motion or Repentance.)
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Well as I've said here before, I like the songs individually, but I don't like the album as a whole. I don't know. I just can't get into the whole album. Also, TMOLS is incredibly boring and the TDEN's vocals ruin the whole song.
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One of their best. Dare I say, their 4th best (though 6DOIT might put it down to 5th best)?
Why, you ask?
- It flows so well. Each song moves perfectly into the next, forming the best cohesive whole since Scenes From a Memory.
- The whole album has a same, discernible atmosphere. I didn't get that feel too much from BC&SL (though there was still an atmosphere in that one, SC excels at this)
- Experimentation into different styles. "Forsaken", "Constant Motion", "The Dark Eternal Night", and "Prophets of War" all show completely different sides to them that we haven't seen before. I'm all for them experimenting.
- "In the Presence of Enemies, pt. 2", which happens to be my 2nd favorite Dream Theater track ever.
- It's very LaBrie driven, which I love
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I don't see the need to repeat my opinion of the whole album since you probably already know it better than you'd wish, but there's one thing that bothers me...
What's everyone's problem with Constant Motion? It's hands down one of their best straightforward metal songs ever, and I don't see how it counts as bad in any possible way. I can see why someone would not like it if they're not a fan of DT's heavier side, but it doesn't count as bad in any possible way. Just to name a few most obvious strengths...
- the riffs. From the first second to the very ending, it's basically filled with amazing riffs that just "drive" the song in an amazing way like supposed to. They just flow perfectly, and feel really strong, so the song really manages to grab me that way.
- yes, the whole song flows perfectly. Two completely different verses, different chorus, different instrumental section, and it all holds together without a single flaw. It's 6:50 and it feels like 4 minutes or something.
- one of the best heavier instrumental sections in a DT song ever. Not too long, perfectly constructed. And the way the chorus flows into the first solo, with the incredible bass passage is one of the best moments on the whole album.
- vocals. MP's low vocals don't fit for ANTR theme. Here they fit perfectly and the second verse with both James and Mike is perfectly executed. Also, James himself does a great job here overall.
- and finally, the chorus. If it doesn't grab you, I don't know what can. It's capable of making a zombie sing along, and live it just defeats everything in existence.
That would do for starters...
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I actually like Constant Motion a bit. The only part that I feel drags is the chorus, it just seems to drop the energy. I don't mind the metallica rip off vocals or anything.
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Oh, it's fantastic. I've gone into this many, many times on here so I'm not going to bother labouring the point again for the umpteenth time, but I think it suffers from being in the context of a much more serious catalogue. You've got a bunch of fairly mature albums, and then sandwiched right in the middle you've got Systematic Chaos sitting there, being thrilling and colourful and bold and vibrant and thoroughly mad. Like a good comic book, it's an adventure rather than an existential musing. It's not what most Dream Theater fans signed up for so I can see why it's not universally accepted, but it feels such a snug fit for the band.
Not in the top drawer of DT output, but a fine figure of an album. So much fun.
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It's a pretty good album. I don't mind constant motion, the best part is the end of the guitar solo. Too bad he didn't do it that high on chaos in motion. it's like james' woah's on learning to live
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It's one of those albums where it's amazing in doses but gets bland if listened to constantly, unlike the other DT albums. I never get tired of ITPOE though.
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What's everyone's problem with Constant Motion?
While I love the riffs, the vocal parts (especially Mike and James tradeoff, which works really well here), and the instrumental section, the song is just a little bit too generic for my tastes. Also, like most of the album, the actual trackplacing seems odd. They should have opened the album with it, or switched its place with Forsaken. As it, it pretty much begins a whole run of average to below average (by DT standards) songs.
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I absolutely love Myung's tone on that album. :tup
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My rating for this album is Average, making it the worst DT album. lol
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An interesting thing I've noticed is that, despite this over-compressed sound, the drums sound pretty good on SC. They have more punch (the drums on BCASL seriously lack it) and are mixed pretty well (except for the Octobans; they're too loud and I don't really like their sound).
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What's everyone's problem with Constant Motion? It's hands down one of their best straightforward metal songs ever, and I don't see how it counts as bad in any possible way. I can see why someone would not like it if they're not a fan of DT's heavier side, but it doesn't count as bad in any possible way.
Straightforward metal is what I would listen to a metal band to hear. That's just me. Also, the lyrics are...well, not DT's best.
- the riffs. From the first second to the very ending, it's basically filled with amazing riffs that just "drive" the song in an amazing way like supposed to. They just flow perfectly, and feel really strong, so the song really manages to grab me that way.
I like the intro riff, but the verses and choruses sound like generic Metallica imitations. Nothing inspired, nothing different.
- yes, the whole song flows perfectly. Two completely different verses, different chorus, different instrumental section, and it all holds together without a single flaw. It's 6:50 and it feels like 4 minutes or something.
I disagree wholeheartedly. I find it to drag unmercifully. It is 6:50 and feels like 10 minutes. The choruses just grate on my ears.
- one of the best heavier instrumental sections in a DT song ever. Not too long, perfectly constructed. And the way the chorus flows into the first solo, with the incredible bass passage is one of the best moments on the whole album.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call it "one of the best heavier instrumental sections in a DT song ever," it is really good, and I like it a lot. I just wish they had written a better song around it. While I almost never listen to this song intentionally anymore, if it comes up on shuffle I will endure the first part, listen intently to the solo section, and then skip to the next song.
- vocals. MP's low vocals don't fit for ANTR theme. Here they fit perfectly and the second verse with both James and Mike is perfectly executed. Also, James himself does a great job here overall.
I disagree with all of this. James doesn't sound like James, and MP, while not sounding awful, doesn't need to be singing lead at any time ever. And the "Huh!" is just silly.
- and finally, the chorus. If it doesn't grab you, I don't know what can. It's capable of making a zombie sing along, and live it just defeats everything in existence.
I don't get this at all. I find nothing catchy about this chorus whatsoever. It's not even the catchiest chorus on Systematic Chaos.
At any rate, you asked, so I answered. But don't worry, I believe there are a lot more people here who share your opinion than mine (on this song, anyway).
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Oh, it's fantastic. I've gone into this many, many times on here so I'm not going to bother labouring the point again for the umpteenth time, but I think it suffers from being in the context of a much more serious catalogue. You've got a bunch of fairly mature albums, and then sandwiched right in the middle you've got Systematic Chaos sitting there, being thrilling and colourful and bold and vibrant and thoroughly mad. Like a good comic book, it's an adventure rather than an existential musing. It's not what most Dream Theater fans signed up for so I can see why it's not universally accepted, but it feels such a snug fit for the band.
Not in the top drawer of DT output, but a fine figure of an album. So much fun.
Couldn't have said it better!
I think its great how they made a real different approach which i believe to do with roadrunner.
Not actually true, they made the album before they found a record label.
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I think its great how they made a real different approach which i believe to do with roadrunner.
Not actually true, they made the album before they found a record label.
Check out ariich, droppin' some knowledge!
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:hat
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What's everyone's problem with Constant Motion? It's hands down one of their best straightforward metal songs ever, and I don't see how it counts as bad in any possible way. I can see why someone would not like it if they're not a fan of DT's heavier side, but it doesn't count as bad in any possible way.
Straightforward metal is what I would listen to a metal band to hear. That's just me. Also, the lyrics are...well, not DT's best.
- the riffs. From the first second to the very ending, it's basically filled with amazing riffs that just "drive" the song in an amazing way like supposed to. They just flow perfectly, and feel really strong, so the song really manages to grab me that way.
I like the intro riff, but the verses and choruses sound like generic Metallica imitations. Nothing inspired, nothing different.
- yes, the whole song flows perfectly. Two completely different verses, different chorus, different instrumental section, and it all holds together without a single flaw. It's 6:50 and it feels like 4 minutes or something.
I disagree wholeheartedly. I find it to drag unmercifully. It is 6:50 and feels like 10 minutes. The choruses just grate on my ears.
- one of the best heavier instrumental sections in a DT song ever. Not too long, perfectly constructed. And the way the chorus flows into the first solo, with the incredible bass passage is one of the best moments on the whole album.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call it "one of the best heavier instrumental sections in a DT song ever," it is really good, and I like it a lot. I just wish they had written a better song around it. While I almost never listen to this song intentionally anymore, if it comes up on shuffle I will endure the first part, listen intently to the solo section, and then skip to the next song.
- vocals. MP's low vocals don't fit for ANTR theme. Here they fit perfectly and the second verse with both James and Mike is perfectly executed. Also, James himself does a great job here overall.
I disagree with all of this. James doesn't sound like James, and MP, while not sounding awful, doesn't need to be singing lead at any time ever. And the "Huh!" is just silly.
- and finally, the chorus. If it doesn't grab you, I don't know what can. It's capable of making a zombie sing along, and live it just defeats everything in existence.
I don't get this at all. I find nothing catchy about this chorus whatsoever. It's not even the catchiest chorus on Systematic Chaos.
At any rate, you asked, so I answered. But don't worry, I believe there are a lot more people here who share your opinion than mine (on this song, anyway).
Ok, this explains something. But for the first part... well, they have songs which are clearly more prog just as clearly more metal, nothing weird about that. That's the point of diversity.
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I think its great how they made a real different approach which i believe to do with roadrunner.
Not actually true, they made the album before they found a record label.
[/quote]
Ah ok didn't know that :p
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Their other metal songs aren't what I would call "straightforward metal" or so obviously in the vein of Metallica. Again, that's just the way I see it. It's OK that you like it, but I don't. And like I said, I think there are more here that like it than don't.
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Well, there's The Mirror, As I Am and Panic Attack, which are also straightforward metal or close (I'd classify CM as "heavy/thrash with a progressive touch", and in fact it fits to the other three as well).
Actually I've had the impression most people don't like it, here and elsewhere. I've seen few actually positive opinions about it, but when they were positive they were very positive. :P
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Another thing against this song: "FOREVERMORE! INTO THE NIGHT! BLISTERING!"
If the word "forevermore" is in DTXI, I'm throwing it in the garbage.
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:lol
By the way, I have exactly zero problem with the lyrics as well. They're exactly what I'd expect in a song which isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic, and it's a perfect example of how it should be done.
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Well, there's The Mirror, As I Am and Panic Attack, which are also straightforward metal or close (I'd classify CM as "heavy/thrash with a progressive touch", and in fact it fits to the other three as well).
Yeah, CM definitely has the thrash overtones (see: Metallica). The Mirror and As I Am don't suffer from all the other faults I listed for Constant Motion, and don't seem quite as derivative of someone else. I don't like Panic Attack very much.
Actually I've had the impression most people don't like it, here and elsewhere. I've seen few actually positive opinions about it, but when they were positive they were very positive. :P
Really? I don't get that at all.
And yes, antigoon is right: FOREVERMORE! INTO THE NIGHT! BLISTERING! is just awful, awful, awful.
And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
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Well, there's The Mirror, As I Am and Panic Attack, which are also straightforward metal or close (I'd classify CM as "heavy/thrash with a progressive touch", and in fact it fits to the other three as well).
Yeah, CM definitely has the thrash overtones (see: Metallica). The Mirror and As I Am don't suffer from all the other faults I listed for Constant Motion, and don't seem quite as derivative of someone else. I don't like Panic Attack very much.
Also forgot about Lie. Well, As I Am is definitely far more Metallica-inspired than Constant Motion.
Actually I've had the impression most people don't like it, here and elsewhere. I've seen few actually positive opinions about it, but when they were positive they were very positive. :P
Really? I don't get that at all.
And yes, antigoon is right: FOREVERMORE! INTO THE NIGHT! BLISTERING! is just awful, awful, awful.
And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
The point is, what's bad about them? You're giving six words of the chorus, and that's it. What's the problem with everything else? Doesn't it show the feeling of tension and fast thinking well? I don't think you can write it much better than that. They had a good idea for a theme for a fast-paced song, and did it really well.
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Well, As I Am is definitely far more Metallica-inspired than Constant Motion.
Opinions vary.
Actually I've had the impression most people don't like it, here and elsewhere. I've seen few actually positive opinions about it, but when they were positive they were very positive. :P
Really? I don't get that at all.
And yes, antigoon is right: FOREVERMORE! INTO THE NIGHT! BLISTERING! is just awful, awful, awful.
And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
The point is, what's bad about them? You're giving six words of the chorus, and that's it. What's the problem with everything else? Doesn't it show the feeling of tension and fast thinking well? I don't think you can write it much better than that. They had a good idea for a theme for a fast-paced song, and did it really well.
Opinions vary.
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Exactly. This thread is basically people arguing over their own subjective opinions. :facepalm:
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Exactly. This thread is basically people arguing over their own subjective opinions. :facepalm:
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/DTF/dtforg.jpg)
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I'm considering jumping out of the window after reading the last three posts.
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ITT: people forget that Dream Theater is prog metal.
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I'm considering jumping out of the window after reading the last three posts.
Why?
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ITT: people forget that Dream Theater is prog metal.
Who is forgetting that? Remember, just because some us don't like a particular metal song they did doesn't mean we forgot that they are a prog metal band. That is a misguided leap on your part.
Also, I pretty much agree with almost everything hef has said about "Constant Motion." If I had to list the 10 worst moments in DT's career, probably four or five of 'em would come from that song alone, the "huh!" as hef called it being number one, and "forevermore, into the night, blistering" probably being number two.
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Guys, just because I (or Kev, or even bosk1 or anyone else) doesn't mean you have to like it any less. The same works in reverse.
If we all felt exactly the same about everything DT-related, there would be no reason to have this forum. There would be nothing to talk about.
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I'm considering jumping out of the window after reading the last three posts.
Why?
You just nicely explained it yourself.
If we all felt exactly the same about everything DT-related, there would be no reason to have this forum. There would be nothing to talk about.
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Isn't that good?
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I don't understand how one might call "Constant Motion" generic, because generic means that it sounds like a large number of other songs. I can't think of anything that sounds like that song.
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I'm considering jumping out of the window after reading the last three posts.
Why?
You just nicely explained it yourself.
If we all felt exactly the same about everything DT-related, there would be no reason to have this forum. There would be nothing to talk about.
That doesn't explain considering jumping out of the window. Your love of Constant Motion and disdain for Images & Words certainly don't make me want to jump out of the window.
But hey, whatever.
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It was simply a different version of "facepalm" when you two enlightened me with the amazing statement that this thread is arguing about subjective opinions, which is something I have never thought about. Even when I wanted to find out why you don't like Constant Motion.
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It was simply a different version of "facepalm" when you two enlightened me with the amazing statement that this thread is arguing about subjective opinions, which is something I have never thought about. Even when I wanted to find out why you don't like Constant Motion.
Ah. Well, I guess that when you had originally posted things like
What's everyone's problem with Constant Motion? It's hands down one of their best straightforward metal songs ever, and I don't see how it counts as bad in any possible way. I can see why someone would not like it if they're not a fan of DT's heavier side, but it doesn't count as bad in any possible way.
finally, the chorus. If it doesn't grab you, I don't know what can.
...ariich felt the need to reiterate that.
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And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
Here you have the exact parallel posted by yourself...
Seriously, arguing about every single detail about how something is written never gets the discussion anywhere, and in my book it usually counts as "can't explain my opinion, so let's derail it a bit".
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Or it's considered making sure everyone is on the same page and all bases are covered.
Stop being so silly. :heart
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In honor of this thread, I mowed the lawn while listening to SC this morning.
It's still pretty bad. A cheese and mustard sandwich on two very tasty pieces of whole-grain bread, as someone (Maybe Orcus) once said in some less derivative way.
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And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
Here you have the exact parallel posted by yourself...
Seriously, arguing about every single detail about how something is written never gets the discussion anywhere, and in my book it usually counts as "can't explain my opinion, so let's derail it a bit".
WTF
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And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic. Bad lyrics are bad lyrics. A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
I've never quite got what's wrong with them. They are incredibly frantic and energetic. Like, majorly so. I can't think of any way they could have done that better, or come up with a more appropriate subject for the song, at that matter.
But hey! 'Sjust me.
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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.
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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.
Aside from the instrumental section which is just totally out of no where.
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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback. The instrumental section is dramatic and dark, fitting perfectly into the mood and theme of the song.
And if you think the TMOLS section is out of nowhere but think The Count of Tuscany is perfect length and doesn't have any excessive instrumental moments, I don't know what to say.
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In defense of TCOT, the transition from the unison to the ambient part is much better crafted that the transition to the instrumental section in TMOLS.
The only part of TCOT that could be classified as "not really necessary" is the JR unison before the ambient part (even JLB thought that it was kinda out of place); but the rest of the instrumental work in TCOT is perfect or at least close to it.
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I'd say it's average, it has some decent songs but Dream Theater can and have done a lot better.
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In defense of TCOT, the transition from the unison to the ambient part is much better crafted that the transition to the instrumental section in TMOLS.
The only part of TCOT that could be classified as "not really necessary" is the JR unison before the ambient part (even JLB thought that it was kinda out of place); but the rest of the instrumental work in TCOT is perfect or at least close to it.
TCOT has instrumental sections before and after every single vocal section. TMOLS has one instrumental section which is in the right place. Even if the transition isn't perfect, it doesn't destroy the flow of the song.
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TMOLS has one instrumental section which is in the right place. Even if the transition isn't perfect, it doesn't destroy the flow of the song.
I never said it did. But in my opinion, people wouldn't see the instrumental section in such a negative light if there was a better build-up to it (which would have had to be pretty long, but if it had helped maintaining the flow in a better way...).
TCOT has instrumental sections before and after every single vocal section.
Let's break it down... There is a (long) intro, a longer vocal section with a few instrumental breaks in there, the real instrumental section, the breakdown with another vocal section, and the outro. I don't really see how that's that much different from, say ITNOG, ANTR and other longer DT songs. I also don't really see the point of mentioning that fact, to be honest.
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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
There's no call for this.
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I like Systematic Chaos but I also really dislike it. Its got some of the newer prog DT songs akin to Octavarium where the band breaks away from the recent standard fare and rediscovers their roots. I really like these songs (ITPOE and to a lesser extent, TMOLS). It's also got some of the only DT songs that I actively avoid (Constant Motion, POW) and while they are pretty cool tracks, they get old quick.
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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.
Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.
Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
I think that structurally, it is very similar to Endless Sacrifice, which is a notorious example. However, I think it does what it does much better than ES, and I actually like the buildup to the instrumental section - it doesn't just start out of nowhere.
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Just reading this thread makes me like SC less.
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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.
It just drags and the music itself just doesn't do it for me. Like Kev keeps bringing up, it's the longest 15 minutes they've ever recorded.
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Over the course of about a year, I will say it's average. It's not worse than WDADU for example.
Saying an album is average for DT is saying it's still better than a lot of music to me, though there are a lot of albums by other bands that slay SC.
Exactly.
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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.
Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
I think that structurally, it is very similar to Endless Sacrifice, which is a notorious example. However, I think it does what it does much better than ES, and I actually like the buildup to the instrumental section - it doesn't just start out of nowhere.
Indeed, ES is generally a very inconsistent and disjointed song, even by DT standards.
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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
There's no call for this.
There is never a call to switch to Nickelback. :lol
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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
Hahahahaha! Fantastic. This is my favourite putdown in weeks.
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I voted "Average"
I like the songs, but for DT it's just an average album.
In the Presence of Enemies 8.5/10 - If the second part was much better than the first I'd definitley have to rate it higher, but this is a pretty good song (even though most of the time I just listen to pt.1)
Forsaken 5/10 - Decent radio friendly song that I don't really listen to much, they have better slower ballads that I'd rather listen to. This is one of the first songs that comes up when you search "Dream Theater" in youtube, and strangely some people know them for it.I'll always remember someone saying "Oh yeah, Dream Theater... don't they write about Vampires and stuff?" :( Damn you, Forsaken video. It's a good thing Dream Theater isn't Muse, or this song would have been in Twilight.
Constant Motion 6.5/10 - Pretty cool metal song that you can't listen to too much but I enjoy it from time to time. The drumming is completely awesome, especially during the solo. When I first got into DT I listened to this song a lot :P
The Dark Eternal Night 6/10 - I feel pretty much the same about this song as I do about Constant Motion, except it's longer and just not as strong (chorus wise, verses...)
Repentance 6/10 - This is a song I rarely listen to (Actually I've honestly only listened to it in its entirety maybe 2-3 times) but It's a great part of the 12 Step Suite, and very different for DT, I like it much more now than I did 2 years ago.
Prophets of War 7/10 -Yes. I enjoy PoW, and I've seen live versions, it's better live. A great Labrie vocal performance (And portnoys awesome backing vocals), and shows what I love about Dream Theater, even though everything doesn't work (At least for me, portnoys speaking section) it still shows them trying something eccentric and different than their other stuff.
Ministry of Lost Souls 7.5/10 - Not as good as ITPoE, but still good. The instrumental section (at least I think) is pretty cool, done much better than Endless Sacrifice for example. It's a pretty standard DT song for the most part, and I don't listen to it much.
Anyways, I decided to do a little review, just my opinions on the songs
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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.
Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
It's one thing if someone finds it "a little unfitting" and it's another if someone claims it's "out of nowhere" at the same time being hypocritical to the point where several other DT songs with far worse flow into the instrumental section are perfectly ok. But well, they're not on Systematic Chaos.
[space for another "lolz darkes you're seeing a conspiracy" post below]
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Alright, Blob. We know it's you. Your little trickery where you hate I&W instead of Awake had us for a little bit but the cat's out of the bag now.
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Oh come TMOLS have one of their coolest and most unexpected Instrumental sections ever and a nice unison and one of JPS best ending solos. It's alot better than their older stuff, like Scarred or LTL or Voices, for me SC is one of their best albums
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What do people see in that ending solo? Its just repetitive.
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^ Was just about to ask that same question.
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I objectively see all the complaints about the ending solo, but there's just something epic (for lack of a less overused internet word) about it that manages to even appeal to the cynical part of me that still thinks it's 'canned' emotion and 'canned' epicness. Which it most likely is, but I still love it for some reason.
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I have no problem with it, but I don't see what's so special about it either.
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Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.
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Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.
Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
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Alright, Blob. We know it's you. Your little trickery where you hate I&W instead of Awake had us for a little bit but the cat's out of the bag now.
:lol
Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.
Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
No, he isn't.
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I'm listening to SC right now, and it's a bit better than I remember. I think knowing the what the lyrics are about actually turn me away. The music and vocals are great.
Hmm, it never really hit me that DT really needs a lyric fix (although BC&SL is an obvious improvement). Maybe my fanboyism is wearing off a tad bit.
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TMOLS might not be complicated solo, but it's so beautiful and I get chills every time I listen to it
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I haven't listened to SC in a while, but going through the songs:
ITPOE 1: Awesome.
Forsaken: Pretty damn good.
Constant Motion: Solid, but nothing special.
TDEN: meh.
Repentance: Some great parts, but it draaaggss
PoW: Fun song.
TMOLS: Basically goes Awesome-Ugh-Awesome
ITPOE 2: meh.
It's strange that on a song by song basis like this I'd say it's a somewhat solid album, but that I still never find myself wanting to listen to it. I guess it suffers from Lightbulb Sun syndrome.
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Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
No, he isn't.
You've really zeroed in on Darkes, haven't you? Just an observation I'm making.
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I guess it suffers from Lightbulb Sun syndrome.
What? SC is far from Dream Theater's best album.
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:facepalm: LBS is another album that I always enjoy when I put it on, but rarely ever put on.
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What a n00b. Lightbulb Sun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Systematic Chaos.
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God you fail. I'm not talking about their quality, just a similar listening habit I have for both.
Noob.
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Either way, that makes you a n00b.
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Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
No, he isn't.
You've really zeroed in on Darkes, haven't you? Just an observation I'm making.
I don't want to be.
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I'll openly admit I'm quite the fussy listener when it comes to most genres I listen to. One of the things I can't really swallow is fantasy metal lyrics, or only in exceptional cases. So SC was pretty much destined to be a difficult listen for me.
ITPOE - This song is okay. Not my favourite of their epics, not my least favourite. The Dark Master section is bad, and I'm no big fan of the lyrics, but I can sit through them for the music, which is good pretty much the whole way. Unlike most people, I actually like The Reckoning.
Forsaken - I have no real problems with this song.
Constant Motion - as some have said, great solo, but I can pass on the song overall.
TDEN - Pass.
Repentance - one of my favourite DT songs. Perhaps not top 10 anymore, but definitely still top 20, I'd say.
Prophets of War - Pass. Although I think the best part of the song is MP's rap (dunno if that's blasphemy or not)
TMOLS - one of my least favourite DT songs. It's almost ironic that a lot of the complaints surrounding this song are about the solo section, considering that's the only bit of the song that's tolerable to me, but it's still not particularly noteworthy.
Overall? I dunno, it's okay. Not the worst album in the world, but the only songs on there I have much interest in checking out are Repentance and Forsaken, most of the time.
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I haven't listened to SC in a while, but going through the songs:
ITPOE 1: Awesome.
Forsaken: Pretty damn good.
Constant Motion: Solid, but nothing special.
TDEN: meh.
Repentance: Some great parts, but it draaaggss
PoW: Fun song.
TMOLS: Basically goes Awesome-Ugh-Awesome
ITPOE 2: meh.
It's strange that on a song by song basis like this I'd say it's a somewhat solid album, but that I still never find myself wanting to listen to it. I guess it suffers from Lightbulb Sun syndrome.
For me, Systematic Chaos is more like DT's Fear of a Blank Planet. Both albums have an abundance of wonderful musical passages, but cruddy lyrics and songs that just seem to drag on ruin the experience.
Taking the metaphor one step further, Black Clouds and The Incident are both albums which seem to be a big leap back in the right direction, even if neither can touch the bands' best material.
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I'd say The Incident captures the essence of Porcupine Tree much better than Black Clouds does with Dream Theater but that isn't a bad analogy.
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Not for me; I'd probably rate BCSL lower than SC at this point.
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Me either. FOABP is my favorite PT album *runs*
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@Darkes7:
1. I love Constant Motion. Love it. Definitely a top-20 DT song (which is saying a lot given the company I put that song in in the top 20)
2. Even given #1, your posts make very little sense. And your condescending tone toward anyone who disagrees with you are starting to irritate me.
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@Bosk:
1. It's a great song, although I wouldn't rank it quite that high.
2. Even given #1, your opinion makes very little sense to me. And your administrative tone toward anyone who posts here is has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
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@James:
1. LOLWUT
2. :bosk1:
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:lol :lol
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@Darkes7:
1. I love Constant Motion. Love it. Definitely a top-20 DT song (which is saying a lot given the company I put that song in in the top 20)
2. Even given #1, your posts make very little sense. And your condescending tone toward anyone who disagrees with you are starting to irritate me.
1) Great to hear.
2) There were two counting maybe as "condescending". Both for the simple reason that explaining something for the 1457th time is tiresome (I tend not to ask for the same explanation again... but that's me), especially if someone is clearly contradicting themselves and I'm getting a very strong feeling it's nothing else than prejudice for the whole album - as it appears in many "you know, I recently listened to Systematic Chaos and it's actually really good" posts in this thread.
Not going to follow this, just wanted to explain. My two-man fanclub recently following me in the DT sub-forum has done a good work at making me stop wanting to post here, you can be happy.
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I think consant motion along with forsaken are the weakest songs on SC, rest of the albm is awesome imo though
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The idea that there is a bias or a prejudice against SC is just ridiculous. I mean, we are all DT fans, so why would a bunch of us randomly decide to gang up and hate on SC for no reason? It makes no sense. The idea that many of us either don't like SC that much or think it pales in comparison to most or all of their other albums is much more plausible.
And sure, some of us can listen to it and think "this ain't so bad," but for me, it has very little replay value, aside from a song or two. To me, the mark of a truly great record is one that makes you want to listen to it all of the time, and SC appears to not pass that test for a lot of us. If it does for you, super, but expecting everyone to think the same way about a record that you do is simply not realistic.
Thank goodness for differing opinions! :biggrin: :)
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The guys in DT are big boys. I hate seeing them bashed constantly, but no one knows being a fan (and a disappointed fan) better than Mike Portnoy. Really, there is no need to rush to DT's defense every time someone says something negative about one of their songs or albums. Lord knows Mike has been on both sides of that monkey-business plenty of times. Imagine, for a moment, the Mike Portnoy of Another World getting banned from a Queensryche or Metallica or Rush forum. It is a very plausible scenario. So don't feel bad for them, and don't get fired up for things that really don't qualify as needless bashing.
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Thank goodness for differing opinions! :biggrin: :)
Get out of here with your devil talk!
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Though SC is probably my second least favorite DT album, I still like it. It's not as amazing as my favorites, but it's still a fun, listenable album.
Almost everything I didn't like about SC was greatly improved upon with BC&SL, so none of it really bothers me.
Also, it happened to come out when I was dealing with some tough times, and it was exactly what I needed, so it has a special significance for me.
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THIS JUST IN: After months of considering TMOLS boring, I decided to give it another chance today. I liked it a lot this time. I think it's just about the mood I was the first moment I heard it. Still, I don't know why I still can't consider the album excellent as a whole when most of the songs are good... I just consider the album good, no less, no more.
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I don't know why, but if I absolutely HAD to pick a favorite DT album, this would be it. Considering that I'm probably one of the bands older fans, (just a few weeks away from my 52nd birthday) it would seem strange that I pick one of their "heavier" albums. the only song I don't like is "The Ministery of Lost Souls' It's just too depressing. But the rest of the songs would still make an excallent full-length disc.
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My head hurts after skimming through this thread again. :lol :lol
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When I saw the ranking the Dream Theater albums, I was shocked to see how low SC was! :o
Why is that?
ITPOE- This is the "epitome" of what Dream Theater is. Twenty five minutes of just pure epic! I've had a thing for "fantasy" songs and it is really epic. I'm not going into full detail until I make the list, but it is awesome.
Forsaken- Who cares how short this song is? The chorus is really catchy, Rudess is fine with his piano playing and James is awesome. Who needs a long, shreddy solo when you have Forsaken's solo? The Forsaken solo reminds me of my namesake, Wither. Short, but delivers the perfect message.
Constant Motion-Heavy riffing. AWESOME SOLO. One of the songs in which I thought Mike sounded badass. Have you seen Rudess' solo on the Making of SC? :o :o
Seriously. What a talented man. Petrucci's was epic as well as Myung throughout the song, especially the song before the solo.
The Dark Eternal Night-Dee-doo-doo. The introduction riffing is amazing. One of the most technical instrumental section's ever. The band is on FIYAH! Did you see Myung? XD Good stuff. Also, Portnoy's vocals sound so bad ass. I AM THE LAASST! Yeah. this song kicks serious ass. The suck and gay track are at 0. XDDDD
Repentance-IMO, the best song on Portnoy's suite. It's a ballad and may seem bloated to some, I think the length is perfect. I love Labrie's delivery and his voice is so soft and smooth. Petrucci is the real rocker here. That solo with Rudess is just absolutely insane. If I close my eyes, I can feel myself being swayed by the solo. As guest artist's spoke, I was really elated when I heard Steve Wilson. STEVE WILSON had a cameo! The chorus of ahh's are also really charming and draws you in. In no way is this song bloated. Every part was necessary.
Prophets of War-Actually, one of my favorite songs by Rudess. When Portnoy spoke those last words, it sounded so badass. Actually, I find myself enjoying this song more than Blind Faith and I think it's waay better than Blind Faith. Please don't castrate me. The fan chanting is also a nice feature. Really enjoyed it and when Petrucci and Labrie had a duet, it sounded good.
The Ministry of Lost Souls-A ballad. Nice. Another fiction love story and I love it. Love the introduction as everything fades to Petrucci's acou-elec guitar. Also, love the transition to that insane solo. That was really a dramatic turn of events. I enjoyed it nonetheless. The ending was the nice finisher as Petrucci closes it off. I love it so much.
So, it has epics, ballads, and nice single's. Why is it not widely loved? I thought it would be one of people's favorite albums. It has a nice mix of prog rock and prog metal and delivers on all edges. Thoughts?
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Wither, we already have a thread for this album. If you are going to start a thread for a particular album/song, we probably already have one, so use that. Use this index thread to help you find them: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=34237.0
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Really great album, SC is. I think it ranks lower mostly in how it doesn't really have any definable direction (which DT have said themselves) and as such, hasn't got the feeling of coherence that an album like Awake or Octavarium has. It's one of the few DT albums that feels like a collection of songs rather than a singular unit.
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I rank this album mid-tier. It is one of my most listened to since its release. The "problem," if you want to call it that, with this album is that the quality to me feels very inconsistent. Much like Images & Words, it contains some of my absolute favorite DT songs and some of my least favorite. The good songs are among DT's best. But it has two of VERY few DT songs I actively dislike (Prophets and TMOLS), and one that is brilliant in concept, but that I don't listen to because it just doesn't move me at all in the execution (Repentence). But my edited version with ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, TDEN gets a LOT of plays.
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Wither, we already have a thread for this album. If you are going to start a thread for a particular album/song, we probably already have one, so use that. Use this index thread to help you find them: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=34237.0
Thank you so very much! :)
Really great album, SC is. I think it ranks lower mostly in how it doesn't really have any definable direction (which DT have said themselves) and as such, hasn't got the feeling of coherence that an album like Awake or Octavarium has. It's one of the few DT albums that feels like a collection of songs rather than a singular unit.
Ah, I can see why. What about Images and Words? Isn't that basically like a collection of songs also? Yet, it is highly, highly loved.
I rank this album mid-tier. It is one of my most listened to since its release. The "problem," if you want to call it that, with this album is that the quality to me feels very inconsistent. Much like Images & Words, it contains some of my absolute favorite DT songs and some of my least favorite. The good songs are among DT's best. But it has two of VERY few DT songs I actively dislike (Prophets and TMOLS), and one that is brilliant in concept, but that I don't listen to because it just doesn't move me at all in the execution (Repentence). But my edited version with ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion, TDEN gets a LOT of plays.
Do you the edited version for all to hear? If so, may I listen to them? :biggrin:
You don't like Prophets and TMOLS? How come? I personally think Prophets is one of James' best.
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I'm surprised we agree on this as much as we do, bosk. I've always said I don't like Minstry, and while I like Prophets, it is the WEAKEST of all the songs that I like, with Repentance coming in a close second. I don't mind Repentance being a "slower" song, and I'm aware of WHY it's the way it is, but there are parts of it that should be reworked or omitted. I like the version of it Portnoy did with it with Flying Colors.
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Bosk, Systematic Chaos is definitely not:
Much like Images & Words,
You may have to turn in your keys to the DTF Car if continued infractions occur.
;D
...And I like SC.
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Since I don't really like this album, as the title suggests, here's my explanation... it has too much of those elements I like the least about DT, namely the random solo sections and them "trying too hard" to be heavy in a "contemporary" way, or whatever was contemporary at that time and that may feel dated after some years.
Never before or since I had in the heavy songs the least liked tracks on an album, and the double punch of Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night really drags the album down for me. Constant Motion is too much "modern metal", too much "Hey James sing like Hetfield", too much dominated by Portnoy's vocals. And the song after that has atrocious lyrics, a kind of heaviness I don't really feel attracted to (and I do love heavy stuff, I'm a metalhead first and foremost, not a progster), and the mandatory (at the time) solo section that I would assume lasts the exact time it took them to write it, 5 minutes. I must admit however that when played live, they actually get you rocking so it's not all gone to waste, but still I hope with an always growing back catalog to never ever listen to any of these songs live, give me You Not Me instead.
This "Hey let's put on our LTE hats and conjure up a solo section to stick in the middle of the song" approach drags down songs already long (In the Presence of Enemies, which overall isn't bad, it has some great and catchy moments) or ruins songs that could have been awesome - The Ministry of the Lost Soul is a beautiful, touching and emotional somber slow piece, and gets hijacked for 5 minutes just because. I have a 8-9 minute edit version that completely cuts out the instrumental detour and it works just fine.
So what remains? on a DT album I should never like the most the "easy" song, but that's what happens here with Forsaken, given the failure of the heavy songs and the bloated solo sections dragging down the others, I like Forsaken the most, this song truly rocks. Prophets of War has a nice catchy punch as well, but come on, second "Muse" song in a row after Never Enough? Repentance is something different for them and I don't really mind the spoken section, but it's really part of a bigger structure anyway.
It's not that I hate this album, it's still DT, but the aforementioned things really leave me too little to appreciate compared on the basically complete and uninterrupted love I felt for the other albums from beginning to end. To those of you who like it, well, good for you, I won't say you're wrong, you have one more DT album to love than me (but then again, those who love Systematic Chaos may, for example, loathe The Astonishing that I madly love, so it's all balanced out I guess).
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Ah, I can see why. What about Images and Words? Isn't that basically like a collection of songs also? Yet, it is highly, highly loved.
Part of it may be that IaW is about 20 mins shorter. Also, I'd say that IaW is more carefully paced. It's hard to explain what I mean by that, though. Maybe it's also that all IaW songs have the same sort of mindset while songs like TDEN and Repentance have a very different mindset. IaW has quite a consistent mystical vibe to it, probably due to the production and keyboard sounds.
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A fan of only four years at the time of this release. Their first studio album that I knew about ahead of the release date, and had time to anticipate. But it was also following 'Octavarium', which remains my favorite, and 'Score'. The heaviness and darkness of SC seemed almost like 'Train of Thought: Part 2'. So it meant that two of the three studio releases after discovering the band were nowhere near my 'comfort zone'. With that in mind............
ITPOE Pt.1 - 9+ A higher grade due to it following 'Psycho' and 'Ant Odyssey' when I saw them in DC in '08.
Forsaken - 7 - In spite of the vampire lyrics.
Constant Motion-8.5 it lives up to its name in a whirlwind fashion. MP vocals work for me here. Short and to the point. I am surprised when I see comments from many that I share similar likes/dislikes, but really hate this one. Such is music.
Repentance - 7 (if all spoken parts are deleted, otherwise it would be removed). MP's spoken words are too loud and too in my face. I don't like to be preached to. The rest of it sets a mood, lets one drift, soothing solo, nice 'choir' ........
Prophets of War - 7.0, short, to the point, with a nice play on words. MPs vocals and the shouts work. It's an anti-war machine song, it should be angry. This one also worked out well live.
Ministry of Lost Souls - 8.5 All of it works well for me. The ending is too long in concert, but works fine as an album closer.
Grade: oh, let's say B-. Total time: approx. 52 minutes.
Oh, almost forgot
TDEN......I'm too old, those beginning vocals are an instant headache, and there's nothing appealing to me. As mentioned earlier, I know from concerts that it has its fans. I probably listened to it twice when it first came out, and twice since. One time in concert, once on the Luna cd.
ITPOE PT2.......I listened to this a LOT when it first came out. I love the vocals, most of the music (especially parts V and VI, which are my 'bonus tracks' on my edited version), but I'm not into that style of lyrics. I just listened to it in its entirety for the first time in about five years. Neither of us has aged that well.
I know my version doesn't work for some/many. But it works for me, and was 'acceptable' for playing in the car with my wife when SC came out. And some DT on long car trips is better than no DT.
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Not a great fan of this one, had to go with the "Some good bits but mostly bad" option.
ITPOE Pt.1 - 4/10 Pretty bland, and unfortunately there's nine minutes of it and a sequel.
Forsaken - 5.5/10 It's listenable but not catchy, and LaBrie's voice starts to grate here. Cool piano intro but uninspired chorus
Constant Motion - 8.5/10 Excellent all round. Hardly a work of absolute genius but has a lot of energy
The Dark Eternal Night - 6/10 Cheesy but not as bad as some say. Too long and bloated though.
Repentance - 3/10 Very forgettable. Solo isn't as amazing as many would say
Prophets of War - 7.5/10 Catchy and I like the chorus. Solid song.
The Ministry of Lost Souls - 7/10 Individual parts of this song are really good, if only they could cut it down by eight minutes or so....
ITPOE Pt.2 - 5/10 "Dark Master" chorus is cool, but they can't fill 17 minutes with it. Every bit as forgettable as Pt.1, but at least has one good part
Constant Motion is the only song I wouldn't skip if it popped up on shuffle, most of the album is very mediocre. ITPOE is probably the worst epic in their catalogue, although Illumination Theory might have something to say too.
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For me, SC was like DT finding themselves a bit confused as to what DT is. It was band at the crossroads.
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Top class DT songs:
ITPOE - Epic song, instrumental is drawn a bit too much but there is so much other good stuff here, and it has a HUGE ending.
MOLS - Great feeling all through to the instrumental, which here too is a bit too long. But the guitar solo and unison are insane! and great ending too.
Good songs:
CM - pretty catchy, awesome solo.
TDEN - vocals drag this down, but still, a catchy chorus and a very complicated instrumental makes this worth the time.
Repentance - this is the only DT song which I agree on being completely blown out. Which is a shame, because if we cut everything from after the solo this could have been a top 10. The spoken word just drags too long. Still, the singing is so good in the first half, and the solo is as emotional as it can get.
Song I dont care too much about them:
Forsaken - cant get over the lyrics. The solo is amazing, but its not enough to hold the entire song.
PoW - this just doesnt feel like DT
Overall Idd say a good album to listen to once in a while, but not even in the upper half of their discography.
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I like TDEN, but that's about it.
ITPOE is absolutely DT's worse all time epic. Part 1 is actually pretty good, but the whole dark master section in part 2 does nothing but make me laugh. It's almost as if I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album.
In fact, that's the feel I get from almost this whole album. Like I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album...only they didn't do that level of hokey on purpose for a joke, so it's not really funny. (though parts of PoW are so horrible they make me LOL)
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Oh, it's fantastic. I've gone into this many, many times on here so I'm not going to bother labouring the point again for the umpteenth time, but I think it suffers from being in the context of a much more serious catalogue. You've got a bunch of fairly mature albums, and then sandwiched right in the middle you've got Systematic Chaos sitting there, being thrilling and colourful and bold and vibrant and thoroughly mad. Like a good comic book, it's an adventure rather than an existential musing. It's not what most Dream Theater fans signed up for so I can see why it's not universally accepted, but it feels such a snug fit for the band.
Not in the top drawer of DT output, but a fine figure of an album. So much fun.
Rob's post from a few years ago still holds up.
I have always maintained that after reaching the band's (at the time) pinnacle with Score, SC feels like the band went into the studio and finally just exhaled. It's not a serious album, but something that is fun and I find SC very easy on the ears. It doesn't belong in their Top half of their discog, but who cares. It doesn't make it a bad album.
I also find that there is a ton of variety on the album. It feels so loose.
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Never understood the hate for Systematic Chaos. Whole album sounds like they had a lot of fun making it!
I think Systematic is every bit as good as ToT and Octavarium. I much prefer it to their post ADToE material...
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For me, SC was like DT finding themselves a bit confused as to what DT is. It was band at the crossroads.
For me, SC was DT having a blast playing heavy and progressive metal. The recent material is more indicative of an identity crisis.
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I don't see how the recent material is more of an identity crisis when the musical feel and atmosphere for each album is consistent and not all over the place.
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Well SAID!!!
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For me, SC was like DT finding themselves a bit confused as to what DT is. It was band at the crossroads.
For me, SC was DT having a blast playing heavy and progressive metal. The recent material is more indicative of an identity crisis.
The recent material is anything but an identity crisis. TA is more focused than anything they've done in a long time.
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For me, SC was like DT finding themselves a bit confused as to what DT is. It was band at the crossroads.
For me, SC was DT having a blast playing heavy and progressive metal. The recent material is more indicative of an identity crisis.
The recent material is anything but an identity crisis. TA is more focused than anything they've done in a long time.
Focused and consistent isn't what I'm talking about. Those two terms can go either way depending on what they represent. A progressive metal band putting out something resembling a musical has "identity crisis" written all over it.
I don't see how the recent material is more of an identity crisis when the musical feel and atmosphere for each album is consistent and not all over the place.
Musical feel and atmosphere have nothing to do with it. Lawrence Welk had musical feel and atmosphere.
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He didn't have an identity crisis either.
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A progressive metal band putting out something resembling a musical has "identity crisis" written all over it.
Not really. Many Prog Metal bands release concept albums and musicals really aren't that different. They, like TA, just have a greater emphasis on characters and plot movement. DT doing a Rock Opera was unexpected, but it made sense as a creative choice considering the tastes of JP and JR.
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For me, SC was like DT finding themselves a bit confused as to what DT is. It was band at the crossroads.
For me, SC was DT having a blast playing heavy and progressive metal. The recent material is more indicative of an identity crisis.
The recent material is anything but an identity crisis. TA is more focused than anything they've done in a long time.
Focused and consistent isn't what I'm talking about. Those two terms can go either way depending on what they represent. A progressive metal band putting out something resembling a musical has "identity crisis" written all over it.
Ok fair enough. I understand. Don't agree. But I understand. :)
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I understand the meaning of his words. But I do not understand how anyone could possibly think that because, aside from just casual agreement or disagreement, it is completely illogical.
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I understand the meaning of his words. But I do not understand how anyone could possibly think that because, aside from just casual agreement or disagreement, it is completely illogical.
That is way too much lawyer speak.
Wut?
:lol
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Let me put it this way. I know most DT songs by heart. However, when I hear "Systematic Chaos", the only thing that comes to mind is "The Dark Nintendo Night".
Totally forgettable. I can't remember the last time I listened to it, it probably was a few weeks after it was released.
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I wouldn't say it's unmemorable, but I would consider it the second least remarkable DT album behind BCaSL. Not to say anything of its quality (as I prefer both SC and BCaSL to WDaDU, though mostly due to production and vocals), but it comes off like an album that wasn't entirely thought through. It's like the thought process was just "hey guys, lets jam and see what songs we can make out of it" with no real cohesive statement or direction. Even other non-concept DT albums like ADToE and DT12 seem to have some common themes and a sensible progression to them.
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I disagree. I think the album has a pretty consistent sound and overall tone.
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I disagree. I think the album has a pretty consistent sound and overall tone.
Yes, but maybe not to the extent of some other DT albums. Not completely sure though. I don't wan't to come off like I'm trashing the album, because I really enjoyed it the last time I listened to it, but there's something about it that makes it feel not quite as unified as some other DT albums for me.
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It's like the thought process was just "hey guys, lets jam and see what songs we can make out of it" with no real cohesive statement or direction. Even other non-concept DT albums like ADToE and DT12 seem to have some common themes and a sensible progression to them.
Wasn't there some sort of intention by the band to take that album into a more stripped, garage-ish direction (after the grand concept and epicness of Octavarium, which also included an orchestra)? I'd say there was a conscious decision to make things rawer/simpler, more rockier than in Octavarium (which featured many acoustic and electronic moments). Lyrically, though I don't think they agreed on a common thread/mood: John writing fantasy, Mike about his personal struggles, James about war.
My appreciation: it was my first 'new' DT album, and I was expecting it, because I loved "The Dark Eternal Night" when the in-studio video was released for promotion. I also liked "In The Presence Of Enemies" a lot, but the rest I couldn't enjoy for a long time - it felt 'weak' to me, compared to Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence. Still, recently I've been re-discovering the album, and now I enjoy many more moments - "Repentance", "Prophets Of War", some of the crazy, syncopated riffs in the middle of "Constant Motion".
My two favourite aspects of Systematic Chaos are:
1. The rawer, rockier sound/mix (which, out of all the RoadRunner albums, is my favourite. Those drums in "The Dark Eternal Night"!)
2. The fact that John Myung is featured prominently, both mix-wise, and with many shining moments in most songs. He isn't just doubling the guitar, he adds stuff of his own (and, in the case of 'Heretic', he is the star). I also like those brief moments where there is no guitar but only bass + keys (such as before the 1st verse of "Forsaken", or the 2nd verse "The Ministry of Lost Souls").
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I disagree. I think the album has a pretty consistent sound and overall tone.
Me too. It manages to have variety, while still sounding like it's part of the same thought process and direction. Even though they didn't have a set theme when writing the album, it's still a snapshot of their creative process at that point in time, and has a consistency to it.
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tbh, when I'm actually listening to the album, I don't really notice what I've been talking about. I like all DT albums and whichever one I'm listening to tends to be my favourite at that moment (save for maybe WDaDU), it's just retroactive when I try to scrutinise the albums and often in that process, I can become confused at why I consider certain DT albums better than others. It's part of why I don't like rating or ranking.
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I understand the meaning of his words. But I do not understand how anyone could possibly think that because, aside from just casual agreement or disagreement, it is completely illogical.
Yeah, because everything is completely logical in the musical world of subjectivity. :lol
You could've addressed me directly, disagreed and left it at that. ;)
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I understand the meaning of his words. But I do not understand how anyone could possibly think that because, aside from just casual agreement or disagreement, it is completely illogical.
Yeah, because everything is completely logical in the musical world of subjectivity. :lol
It kind of is. You can back your opinions up with things that are real and understandable. If you thought TA and DT12 were identity crises, you should be able to back it up with something that makes sense, especially if others like me don't see it.
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It's one of the albums I listen to the least and compared to what came after it I don't think it holds up well. It will forever have a special place with me since I was one of the "fan-chanters" on ITPOE and POF. That was a great experience but as music it's hardly something I ever listen to.
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It will forever have a special place with me since I was one of the "fan-chanters" on ITPOE and POF. That was a great experience but as music it's hardly something I ever listen to.
Wow, congratulations! By the way, I hadn't noticed until now that "In The Presence Of Enemies" has chants as well. Is it at the beginning of 'The Slaughter Of the Damned' on part 2? Or is it somewhere else too?
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It will forever have a special place with me since I was one of the "fan-chanters" on ITPOE and POF. That was a great experience but as music it's hardly something I ever listen to.
Wow, congratulations! By the way, I hadn't noticed until now that "In The Presence Of Enemies" has chants as well. Is it at the beginning of 'The Slaughter Of the Damned' on part 2? Or is it somewhere else too?
iir it's scattered around The Slaughter of the Damned.
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iir it's scattered around The Slaughter of the Damned.
Oh, alright, I'll pay attention next time.
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I like SC a lot; I would say it suffers from a similar issue to (the overall superior) Octavarium in that there are several standout tracks I love, and the rest I just hit the skip button.
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Question for you guys...
"Repentance" -- who are all the people talking? Is it the band? I'm listening to the song right now and always was curious...
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Question for you guys...
"Repentance" -- who are all the people talking? Is it the band? I'm listening to the song right now and always was curious...
Corey Taylor - "Until that moment, I'd never felt like I'd failed at anything...And I felt like I failed her...And I failed myself, and I failed my children...It's still really hard to deal with."
Steve Vai - "I want to thank you for helping me to see my own selfishness and to tell you how regretful I am it has hurt you."
Chris Jericho - "I'm sorry I didn't visit you in the hospital, Grandpa when you were on your deathbed. I'm sorry I didn't come to your funeral...I don't know if I was selfish or just too scared to face it. It's one of the biggest regrets of my life."
David Ellefson - "I'm here to confess with you that what I did, was wrong... And I'm asking for your forgiveness"
Steve Hogarth - "The only unforgivable thing hauls itself out of bed, looks over my shoulder at the bloody English weather..."
Joe Satriani - "I really regret not being able to see my friend Andy..."
Mikael Åkerfeldt - "One of my best friends who's the godfather of my daughter, he asked me to sing or play something at his wedding, and I turned it down because I was busy and too much of a chickenshit to do it...And I feel sorry for that, because it was a very very close friend of mine"
Steven Wilson - "So, I wanted to apologize to anyone that I've upset or offended.. they're just words, it's just an opinion, but unfortunately, I tend to express it as a fact, and that's kind of arrogant."
Jon Anderson - "I think it's the betrayal...it still haunts me."
Neal Morse - "I'm sorry for what I did back then... I was a different person. I really was and I'm so sorry. I wish it wouldn't have happened, but it did, and I'm sorry. Forgive me. I'm sorry..."
Daniel Gildenlöw - "I guess I'm simply sorry for being me just so awful to the people..."
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I knew most of those, but wasn't aware of the Steve Vai and Satriani ones. (or maybe I just forgot)
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thank youuuu! :hefdaddy
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Very unpopular opinion here, but I like SC more than Octavarium, BC&SL and even TOT. To me, it sounds balanced: It is heavy, melodic, technical, epic, progressive and has great soft moments. It has many amazing riffs and solos by both JP and JR. JLB and JM sound great and MP's vocals weren't as bad as in BC&SL :biggrin:
Also, I really like that they used JR a lot in this album. I tend to like DT's keyboard heavy albums more, which is weird considering I don't play keys at all. All his sounds were perfectly chosen and I feel he could experiment with them more than in the last couple albums they did with MP.
The mix is one of the best for DT studio albums, imo. Every instrument has a place to shine, you can hear all of them and all of them sound great.
Just my opinion, guys, please don't assasinate me ;D
Btw, just if anyone wants to know, I don't rank the album that high on my list. It's currently the 8th.
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Very unpopular opinion here, but I like SC more than Octavarium, BC&SL and even TOT. To me, it sounds balanced: It is heavy, melodic, technical, epic, progressive and has great soft moments. It has many amazing riffs and solos by both JP and JR. JLB and JM sound great and MP's vocals weren't as bad as in BC&SL :biggrin:
Also, I really like that they used JR a lot in this album. I tend to like DT's keyboard heavy albums more, which is weird considering I don't play keys at all. All his sounds were perfectly chosen and I feel he could experiment with them more than in the last couple albums they did with MP.
The mix is one of the best for DT studio albums, imo. Every instrument has a place to shine, you can hear all of them and all of them sound great.
Just my opinion, guys, please don't assasinate me ;D
Btw, just if anyone wants to know, I don't rank the album that high on my list. It's currently the 8th.
That is all fair.
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Very unpopular opinion here, but I like SC more than Octavarium, BC&SL and even TOT. To me, it sounds balanced: It is heavy, melodic, technical, epic, progressive and has great soft moments. It has many amazing riffs and solos by both JP and JR. JLB and JM sound great and MP's vocals weren't as bad as in BC&SL :biggrin:
[...]
Just my opinion, guys, please don't assasinate me ;D
Btw, just if anyone wants to know, I don't rank the album that high on my list. It's currently the 8th.
So Octavarium, BC&SL & TOT are all in your bottom 5?
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Very unpopular opinion here, but I like SC more than Octavarium, BC&SL and even TOT. To me, it sounds balanced: It is heavy, melodic, technical, epic, progressive and has great soft moments. It has many amazing riffs and solos by both JP and JR. JLB and JM sound great and MP's vocals weren't as bad as in BC&SL :biggrin:
[...]
Just my opinion, guys, please don't assasinate me ;D
Btw, just if anyone wants to know, I don't rank the album that high on my list. It's currently the 8th.
So Octavarium, BC&SL & TOT are all in your bottom 5?
My list is always changing, but this is how I rank them at the moment:
8. SC
9. TOT
10. FII
11. Octavarium
12. BC&SL
13. WDADU
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Was JP listening to a Blue Oyster Cult best of when he wrote the lyrics to this album? (i.e. Dark Eternal Night = Godzilla, Forsaken = I love the night, Ministry of Lost Souls = Don't fear the Reaper)
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Godzilla is definitely a monster track. But otherwise, I don't see the connection.
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History shows again and again
How nature points up the folly of men
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans :'(
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
I love that making of video. I wish they had one for every album.
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans :'(
I kinda wish that they had kept it as one big epic track, instead of splitting it up into 2 parts. When I wanna listen to this, I do the Chaos in Motion live version.
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This is the only DT album where I changed the original track listing. I start with Forsaken, and have both parts of In The Presence of Enemies as the final track.
Also, ITPOE is still one of my all-time favorite DT tracks.
And I love SC as a whole.
:metal
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans :'(
I agree with the bolded. The Documentary may be better than the commentary tracks- I miss those.
I may consider ITPOE top 5. TDEN is bottom five, and probably the worst IMO.
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I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress. It's a fun watch.
I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.
To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans :'(
I kinda wish that they had kept it as one big epic track, instead of splitting it up into 2 parts. When I wanna listen to this, I do the Chaos in Motion live version.
I made a playlist with both parts, so, if I want to listen to the whole song, I just play it and that's it :)
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Listening to this for the first time in a long while and it is easily at the bottom of the DT discography for me. There are some good parts but for the most part it's a big disappointment. Bad production, bad lyrics, bad song structures (too long and repetitive). This is the only DT album with multiple songs that I don't like. Constant Motion and TDEN are fun and though over long, ITPOE has some cool parts and vocal melodies. Repentance and Prophets of War are low points for me. Forsaken and TMOLS are average. This albums oozes MP's authoritative grip on the direction of the band and while this was slightly rectified on BC&SL it's more clear to me now than ever that MP leaving was the best thing for both parties.
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Systematic Chaos turned 10 today.
Favorite track for me is still ITPOE Pt 1
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Systematic Chaos turned 10 today.
Favorite track for me is still ITPOE Pt 1
I count ITPOE 1 and 2 as one song (which it is), so that's my favorite song from the album. Very underrated song imo.
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SC has aged well. Still enjoy it 10 years later.
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Listening to this for the first time in a long while and it is easily at the bottom of the DT discography for me. There are some good parts but for the most part it's a big disappointment. Bad production, bad lyrics, bad song structures (too long and repetitive). This is the only DT album with multiple songs that I don't like. Constant Motion and TDEN are fun and though over long, ITPOE has some cool parts and vocal melodies. Repentance and Prophets of War are low points for me. Forsaken and TMOLS are average. This albums oozes MP's authoritative grip on the direction of the band and while this was slightly rectified on BC&SL it's more clear to me now than ever that MP leaving was the best thing for both parties.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
The only difference is that I absolutely LOVE TDEN, and I don't care for CM at all. ("Forevermore...into the night...blistering"??? Really??? I think I wrote that once.....in middle school....after I heard my first Saxon album).
Everything else you say about the album is spot on. Honestly, its the only DT album I tend to purposefully avoid.
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SC has aged well. Still enjoy it 10 years later.
I agree.
Systematic Chaos arrived just as i was becoming a big DT fan, and it didn't disappoint.
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Good excuse to listen to this album. Thanks for bumping this thread!
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First time I heard SC was when I started getting into DT last year, and I watched the whole making of doc. And I loved the album...
...then I heard the rest of their back catalog...
And now it's prob bottom 3 for me... I just hate POW and foreskinsakin.. ministry is good, and ITPOE is awesome. But too many meh moments... even repentance, which is good as a slow breather in the middle of MPs 12 step, on this album it's a snoozer. I think maybe if it was on BCSL instead, and TSF had been on what became ADTOE, maybe I would have liked it better.
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There's no love loss for PoW in my book. Repentance is just ok but the JP solo barely saves it for me. The rest of the album is great. Not sure how putting TSF on ADTOE would make it better.
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I want to give a shout out to In the Presence of Enemies. I know... I know... I'm not exactly going out on a limb when I say that, especially considering that the album has other songs that tend to get a lot more hate, but I think that ITPOE gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of better-known epics like ACOS and 8VM. It's actually a really underrated song.
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It is underrated but I don't think splitting it into two tracks as bookends did it any favors either. In people's minds, it's still two separate tracks and continuity is lost somehow. IDK, just a theory...
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The amount of times you hear DARK MASTER kills it a bit for me, one of the few things I don't like about the album. The other thing is that if you're listening on headphones, the feedback squeal in Prophets Of War right before the last chorus is hard panned to one ear... It hurts :D
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I want to give a shout out to In the Presence of Enemies. I know... I know... I'm not exactly going out on a limb when I say that, especially considering that the album has other songs that tend to get a lot more hate, but I think that ITPOE gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of better-known epics like ACOS and 8VM. It's actually a really underrated song.
Completely agree.
It is underrated but I don't think splitting it into two tracks as bookends did it any favors either. In people's minds, it's still two separate tracks and continuity is lost somehow. IDK, just a theory...
Yeah, things would've been much different if they kept it as one long song, just like they played it on that tour.
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The CiM version does help continuity but unfortunately lacks good production. It's not terrible, but could've been much better.
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I don't think the splitting is an issue, maybe the occasional listener finds on YouTube one half of the song, but in the end it's like Six Degrees... a song? a suite? we all know it's that second disc of the album when we talk about Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, just like if we read "In the Presence of Enemies", without the part specified, we know it's the whole song.
I don't find nothing really wrong with the song, the first, slow atmospheric section when the dark master melody comes in is quite brilliant, and the end is bombastic as any. Maybe the intro is too long and the final solo section could have been shorter or memorable, but all in all I find it a quite good and enjoyable epic. And live it was good!
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I don't think the splitting is an issue, maybe the occasional listener finds on YouTube one half of the song, but in the end it's like Six Degrees... a song? a suite? we all know it's that second disc of the album when we talk about Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, just like if we read "In the Presence of Enemies", without the part specified, we know it's the whole song.
Not sure why you're comparing it to SDOIT. That title song is 8 continuous tracks. ITPOE was split into 2 tracks separate from each other on the album. The fact that they are one song is irrelevant. The presentation is the difference.
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Systematic Chaos has really grown on me over the years. After some time away from it and coming back to it a while ago its shot up in my rankings. Its at least better than 3 or 4 other DT albums for me. It has some elements that aren't present on other DT albums that i really appreciate.
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SC was good. 8VM shoes were really hard to fill and the album wasn't as good as its predecessor, but it has a lot of strong points. I remember I hated The Ministry of Lost Souls when the album came out, now it's my favorite song off the album.
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I really like the intense vocal of ITPOE and Repentance. Contrary to fanbase I really enjoy PoW. The rest is meh though. TMOLS could be the most boring song DT ever created to this day.
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I really like the intense vocal of ITPOE and Repentance. Contrary to fanbase I really enjoy PoW. The rest is meh though. TMOLS could be the most boring song DT ever created to this day.
:lol We're waiting for an explanation.
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No explanation needed for that one.
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TMOLS is easily my least favorite DT song.
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Wow, I dig TMOLS... it's wayyyyyy better than even PoW, not to mention other songs in the catalog (including most of WDADU, Wait for Sleep, Lifting Shadows, You not me, etc etc...)
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It makes me think of what JP said 10 years ago in the SC documentary about TMOLS. "Some people just don't get what's going on there."
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Wow, I dig TMOLS... it's wayyyyyy better than even PoW, not to mention other songs in the catalog (including most of WDADU, Wait for Sleep, Lifting Shadows, You not me, etc etc...)
:neverusethis:
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And some people DO get it and don't find it nearly as interesting as the bulk of their music.
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Well, that's not exactly how they put it. Thanks for the clarification.
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This album I'm somewhat mixed on. Its starts out very strong with Presence of enemies 1 (still love this song, and was always impressed with it)
Love forsaken. Always felt it was very catchy
Constant motion (you can tell they were going for a certain style, and I have grown to like it over time. I think it works for the most part)
Dark eternal night (Catchy song. Does a lot of cool stuff. I don't have any real issues with it. Is it kinda corny? I don't know, but I like it)
--Up to this point in the album I am totally on board, and very much enjoying the album
Repentance- God, does this thing drag on. Its doesn't even feel like a song imo and this was the first time in DTs history where I was like "what is this"
Prophets- The less said about this song the better. Sorry to anyone that likes it, but I've always skipped right through.
--At this point the entire flow, and feel of the album is out the window (which is why I always just skipped those two tracks)
Ministry - Never had any issues with this song. Not my favorite, but its fine
Presence II - "Dark master, my soul is yours..." remove that bit of cheese and this is a great song. It still is a very decent song regardless, but I role my eyes whenever I start hearing DT lyrics about Ghouls and goblins and corny dungeons and dragons shit. Zeppelin can get away with lord of rings lyrics, and Rush can pull off tower Necromancer lyrics, but I'm not feelin it with DT.
Overall this is an album I like a lot despite its blemishes. And if I am in the right mood, it really hits the spot
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I originally voted Pretty bad, but has some good points. I'm currently working my backwards through the DT albums and that opinion hasn't changed. For me SC is easily my least favorite DT album and it's not even close.
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Good excuse to listen to this album. Thanks for bumping this thread!
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I voted for "Terrible" assuming this is grading on a DT scale. I still love the album because its DT and I still put it on a fair amount but I consider it to be in the "worst albums by DT" category along with ADTOE and Octavarium.
At least ADTOE and Octavarium each have an amazing epic though while SC has nothing that I would even consider nominating for a top 50 DT song. Its way too metal for my taste and I hate the way Labrie is used. The only song that could have been amazing is Repentance and it almost seems like they decided to stop writing it halfway through.
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Repentance is the weakest track on the album imo, it's just boring to me and a buzzkill ( Even though this is a song about sobering up and righting the wrongs) . So I guess it is supposed to be a buzzkill. :justjen
This is also the appropriate thread to discuss TDEN! :metal
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To me, Constant Motion is a much better "dumb metal song" than TDEN. Better riffs, solo, drumming, everything.
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Sytematic Chaos is easily one of my least favorite DT albums and is imo one of the worst in their oeuvre. Buuuut...it's still not a half bad album. In fact, as far as progressive metal goes, it's above average. The rest of DT's catalog just outclasses it.
In the Presence of Enemies: A really solid epic. Has a lot of great moments and is fun from start to finish.
Forsaken: Underrated imo. A catchy, fun track with a great piano riff and a cool solo.
Constant Motion: Rock Band made me hate this otherwise great song. Why is it so hard? Why?
The Dark Eternal Night: Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it fun? Also yes.
Repentance: No.
Prophets of War: Also underrated imo.
Ministry of Lost Souls: Much better in the Symphonic Theater of Dreams version, but a really beautiful song with a giant space flea middle section. The symphonic version makes it actually work and is definitely Top 10 DT.
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Funny thing is, Repentance seems to be most people's least favorite outside of POW, but to me that is the 1 song on the album with genuine emotion and there are some really nice melodies in the first half especially the interlude before the 2nd verse.
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Repentance is a nice mellow song. Only thing is the end Drags on with the "Ahhs"
I love Prophets of War, its a fun song. But of the live version I saw, didn't translate to well live. MP didn't bother doing the background vocals which I thought we wouldve done.
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Repentence has some amazing moments and is incredible in its concept and for what the band did with it. But in terms of the actual execution and whether it actually inspires a desire to re-listen, that's where it falls way short for me and falls to the bottom of the pile. It's just too repetitive and drones on far too long. The apology section, for example, is a brilliant concept. Mike's idea for that, and putting it all together--incredibly creative. But it isn't something I want to listen to after the first few times either.
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Repentence has some amazing moments and is incredible in its concept and for what the band did with it. But in terms of the actual execution and whether it actually inspires a desire to re-listen, that's where it falls way short for me and falls to the bottom of the pile. It's just too repetitive and drones on far too long. The apology section, for example, is a brilliant concept. Mike's idea for that, and putting it all together--incredibly creative. But it isn't something I want to listen to after the first few times either.
No.
Song is awesome. All 5000 minutes or whatever of it.
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If there's any part of it that drags, it's the spoken word section at the very end. It's still a great song overall.
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I "like" SC but it's not one of my favorites and I did like it much more when it originally came out. Just gasn't stood up as well as most of their others IMHO.
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Can’t dislike an album with a song like In The Presence of Enemies. Impossible.
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Systemic chaos has some good songs and probably my favorite drum lines/work in DT’s discography.
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The main thing that drags Repentance down for me is the spoken word portions. It's a good concept on paper, but I don't think that it was executed that well. Whenever I listen to it, I find it grating and it's information overload when all of them are going at once. It also starts dragging in certain parts, especially towards the end. I feel like there's a good 7-8min song in there, because the first half of the song is awesome. But as soon as the spoken word section comes in, the song loses all of its steam.
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Years go by, and I do not know which album I hate most: SC or BCSL.
ITPOE 1 - It's not so bad
Forsaken - WTF?
Constant Motion - Funny enough. Nice drum line.
TDEN - WTF? 2
Repentance - So long, so boring. Restitution part is completely bad. Cool solo, though.
POW - An interesting idea, but it was not so well executed.
TMOLS - Could be half the length, easily.
ITPOE - I needed to hear this now, because I couldn't remember it correctly. Very long, not so good and worse than the first part.
SC has some good moments, like great guitar solos, interesting bass lines, but as an album it's pretty bad.
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Can’t dislike an album with a song like In The Presence of Enemies. Impossible.
This.
The main thing that drags Repentance down for me is the spoken word portions. It's a good concept on paper, but I don't think that it was executed that well. Whenever I listen to it, I find it grating and it's information overload when all of them are going at once. It also starts dragging in certain parts, especially towards the end. I feel like there's a good 7-8min song in there, because the first half of the song is awesome. But as soon as the spoken word section comes in, the song loses all of its steam.
I agree. The spoken word section and all the "ahhh" parts make it drag. I like the song untill the end of the guitar solo (very good solo btw).
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This album is in my bottom 3 DT albums, and while it has very good moments, as a whole, it falls flat, in my opinion. And I think describing each track is easier to me:
•ITPOE (as a whole) is a highlight of the album; overall it is Proggy, catchy, and creates good imagery. 9/10
•Forsaken is catchy and enjoyable, but it's a bit "meh". 7/10
•Constant Motion has some Metallica ingredients that I like, but it is not astonishing (pun intended). 7/10
•Dark Eternal Night is another highlight; is far from the best of DT, but it has such a good chorus, and the instrumental section is perfect. 8/10
•Repentance, oh, Repentance. I love this song a lot, and the Opeth influence that it has is beautiful. Many people say that it drags for too long, but I don't think so. I have to say that Post-Rock is one of my favourite genres ever, so I guess my love for the song has something to do with that (both Repentance and many Post-Rock tracks have this thing of dragging for too long, while setting an specific mood). 10/10
•Prophets Of War is a cool song. I'm not a fan of Muse (they bore me, except for some songs from their last album), and I think that DT did Muse better than Muse in this track. I like the Rap part too, haha. 7,5/10
•Ministry Of Lost Souls is in my top 15 DT songs, really. I fell in love with this song the first time I listened to it. The lyrics, the vocals, the instrumental section, the outro... I love everything in this song. 11/11 (it goes up to eleven)
Systematic Chaos isn't a bad album by any means, and I actually find myself enjoying the album every time I listen to it. But as a whole, it kind of lacks a clear direction, and feels more like a collection of songs than a cohesive record (like, let's say, ADTOE or I&W). As a whole -and not the average rate of the songs-, I think this album is a 7/10 one.
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This album is in my bottom 3 DT albums, and while it has very good moments, as a whole, it falls flat, in my opinion. And I think describing each track is easier to me:
•ITPOE (as a whole) is a highlight of the album; overall it is Proggy, catchy, and creates good imagery. 9/10
•Forsaken is catchy and enjoyable, but it's a bit "meh". 7/10
•Constant Motion has some Metallica ingredients that I like, but it is not astonishing (pun intended). 7/10
•Dark Eternal Night is another highlight; is far from the best of DT, but it has such a good chorus, and the instrumental section is perfect. 8/10
•Repentance, oh, Repentance. I love this song a lot, and the Opeth influence that it has is beautiful. Many people say that it drags for too long, but I don't think so. I have to say that Post-Rock is one of my favourite genres ever, so I guess my love for the song has something to do with that (both Repentance and many Post-Rock tracks have this thing of dragging for too long, while setting an specific mood). 10/10
•Prophets Of War is a cool song. I'm not a fan of Muse (they bore me, except for some songs from their last album), and I think that DT did Muse better than Muse in this track. I like the Rap part too, haha. 7,5/10
•Ministry Of Lost Souls is in my top 15 DT songs, really. I fell in love with this song the first time I listened to it. The lyrics, the vocals, the instrumental section, the outro... I love everything in this song. 11/11 (it goes up to eleven)
Systematic Chaos isn't a bad album by any means, and I actually find myself enjoying the album every time I listen to it. But as a whole, it kind of lacks a clear direction, and feels more like a collection of songs than a cohesive record (like, let's say, ADTOE or I&W). As a whole -and not the average rate of the songs-, I think this album is a 7/10 one.
I think you may be the first person I've seen that prefers the second half of SC to the first. :lol
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For all the parts of this album that don't work, the ones that do are so good it doesn't really matter. In this Presence of Enemies Part 1 grooves in a way that most Dream Theater songs don't, and the way it builds to the end is so wonderfully sinister. Forsaken hits all the "standard song" marks perfectly and tells a nice story. Repentance might be long, but there isn't another Dream Theater song with a remotely similar atmosphere. And The Ministry of Lost Souls is an under-appreciated top-Tier Dream Theater song. On top of all this you get three of Petrucci's best solos (ITPOE Pt. 1 and the two in Ministry).
So yes yes Dark Eternal Night is about monsters whatever. That song even has the great outro riff with the Continuum solo over it.
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I smiled when I heard the opening riff of TDEN for the first time. It sounded unlike anything they had written before.
I love this album.
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To me, the album has two sides - the epic side and the fun side. The epics have all aged better, with some of them being among their best songs of all time. The shorter tracks that aim for being more rock and roll and maybe slightly tongue-in-cheek are solid at worst and still very listenable. I think it's a great album overall, one of their more underrated ones.
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Average.
The only songs that I ever listen to are Forsaken (one of the best 'songs' that they've written that is concise), Constant Motion and Dark Eternal Night.
The rest of the album is completely forgettable to me.
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Average for me. It's near the bottom of my DT album rankings, but that doesn't mean it's bad since I like all of their albums but this just has a few songs I really am not interested in that holds it down. There's a few awesome songs here as well of course.
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Average for me. It's near the bottom of my DT album rankings, but that doesn't mean it's bad since I like all of their albums but this just has a few songs I really am not interested in that holds it down. There's a few awesome songs here as well of course.
This is pretty much my opinion on SC as well. It's hit or miss for me.
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I very rarely listen to SC these days. When I do, it's often just ITPOE, CM and TDEN that I listen to. It has two of my least favourite DT songs ever (TMOLS and Repentance) to hold it down.
It gets some sentimental points though, since I became a DT fan around the time of release of this album, and I listened to it a lot back then.
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This was also my first album where I was already a fan and following the release process and then the following tour was my first time seeing them live so there is some sentimental value to that. I've also seen every song of the album live :metal
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The only songs that I ever listen to are Forsaken (one of the best 'songs' that they've written that is concise), Constant Motion and Dark Eternal Night.
Forsaken is indeed a great song, it has a bit of an Evenescance feel to it. Constant Motion rocks and has a Metallica vibe going on.
TDEN is completely original to me and all Dream Theater. I've had a friend or two say that it reminded them of Mudvane, but I'm not real familiar with that band.
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Skipping through the album while I'm reading this thread; it's been a while since I played SC from start to finish. It's not rubbish (it's DT, how could it be), but not my favorite at all either.
Highlights: In the Presence of Enemies 1+2 (why did they cut it in two? Poor decision!), Constant Motion and The Ministry of Lost Souls
I don't care much for the rest. Forsaken has its moments but is also terribly cheesy. TDEN ... ohmylord. Just, no. Repentance is interesting the first time you hear it. The best part of Prophets is that video where James is faking an Indian accent.
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Controversial opinion: I think splitting ITPOE into two parts was exactly what the song needed.
1) That pause is really jarring & makes the song feel somewhat disjointed when combined.
2) Part II works really well as a standalone epic. It has a really clear build-up & payoff from each of its four sections, & that doesn't work as well when you add in the sections from Part I.
3) I don't think any of the other tracks would be good openers or closers (or at least not as good as the ITPOE parts).
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Controversial opinion: I think splitting ITPOE into two parts was exactly what the song needed.
1) That pause is really jarring & makes the song feel somewhat disjointed when combined.
2) Part II works really well as a standalone epic. It has a really clear build-up & payoff from each of its four sections, & that doesn't work as well when you add in the sections from Part I.
3) I don't think any of the other tracks would be good openers or closers (or at least not as good as the ITPOE parts).
If you have to split a song into two parts then this one was done pretty well. I enjoy the transition from Pt1 to Forsaken as well as from TMoLS to Pt2.
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I'm a big fan of pt1 and not as big of a fan of pt2 so I think the split worked well too, I would love to see them open a show or seceond set with pt1.
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I'd rank SC near the bottom of the my fav DT albums (only 8VM and BC&SL rank lower). but I still find it to be a pretty fun album to listen to. The drum sound bothers me as the cymbals have no depth or "cut" to them and the drums themselves feel somehow overly loud yet lacking any sort of natural echo/ambience.
I'm glad they split up the epic as both parts work well as separate songs and the bookend vibe of an album is always satisfying. I like this song a lot and Part 2's back-half is a lot of fun but it contains the same type of bland heavy riff that is also in Ministry and Constant Motion.
Forsaken is harmless and pretty enjoyable. I like this one a lot.
Constant Motion is my first disliked track. Way too much MP going on and the song is bland musically. Plus the boring reused odd-time heavy riff reappears.
I like The Dark Eternal Night as it obviously meant to be a sort of Metropolis-type wacky middle instrumental song. The vocal effect in the verse is cool and the instrumental section is awesome.
Repentance. Reduce it to like 6 minutes and it's a great song. Way too long (my complaint with every DT album from Six Degrees to Black Clouds) and too much repetition to make a long song rather than new ideas being the cause of the lengthiness.
Everyone hates Prophets of War but I like it. The Muse vibe reappears but it bugs me less on this song than it did on Never Enough.
Ministry. I like the first half and wish the instrumental section kept the same sort of vibe rather than going off like a typical DT instrumental section at that time. The stupid odd-time guitar riff makes another appearance. Imagine a dark, moody instrumental section instead of the one we got. It'd be pretty different for them and elevate Ministry into a pretty unique song but it's just Sacrificed Sons Pt. 2.
I have a lot of complaints about this album (most of them being bland heavy riffs and lack of editing and good production), but it's still listenable and I enjoy it for the most part.
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Definitely a better album than often given credit for - It's towards the end of my DT album ranking, but has aged pretty well and does have its own unique feel to it. The "Monster" subject matter is a bit over the top and corny, but the music seems to go along with this and never take itself too seriously. It also makes for a good vibe of being like a mini concept album that really isn't, but has the vampires, beasts and demons spanning over the course of the album.
ITPOE is a great underrated epic, there are some top riffs and melodies, but for me, it seems Portnoy started trying to take over a bit much here and the result was a lot of inconsistent moments and for me the worst track in the catalogue in Repentance, which I just can't listen to. Still a better album than the one that came after it for me - BCASL I felt was a real misfire bar a few moments. But SC has many cool moments that I still really enjoy, they just have much better albums overall in their catalogue.
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For what it's worth, I think Repentance is exactly as long as it needs to be. It certainly offers more of a breather than Vacant does on Train of Thought. After some heavy and intense music you want a bit of a breather. Plus the chord progression on the final 3 minutes of Repentance is gorgeous, and worth hearing the three times we do hear it.
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The biggest issue I have is that they split In the Presence of Enemies into two parts. Fortunately with editing software and modern players, we can fix these things. I put them back together, and dropped the way too long pause as well...just shortened it up, and now it's a GLORIOUS 25 minute opening song, which really would have been a bold ballsy move, which is what they should have done. If memory serves, that is one thing they considered back when, and they should have done it.
I'm good, I have my version.
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I think it works better how it ended up, as two songs.
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This is the only DT album where I did my own track list where I removed some songs and rearranged the order. I listen to ITPOE as one song. But I respect the artistic decision to split it up, and I think it was a cool idea.
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It works well for the album (killer opener + killer closer), but the song suffers because of it, as many people don't see it as the big, 25 minute epic that it is. Something similar happened with SDOIT (the song).
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I'm good with the split because pt1 is insanely better than pt2 and also because the intro is an awesome album opener and I guess the outro works well for an album ender. I just wish I enjoyed pt2 more. I do get Pt2 feeling when I listen to PBD although I'm enjoying that much more.
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I remember SC was generally disliked when released, but seems to be more appreciated by the fanbase over time. The album has aged well and gotten better-- I go back to it way more than BC&SL (DT's worst overall album in my opinion).
I enjoyed it when it first came out (I bought the fantastic special edition with the 5.1 mix/'making of' documentary dvd), but was kind of disappointed in the direction DT took musically and lyrically. In the Presence of Enemies was always fantastic. Repentance also contains one of JP's greatest guitar solos of all time. Prophets of War is still the worst tune, and one of weakest tracks in the entire DT discography.
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I think the Bosk description of Repentance is the best I’ve heard. I agree completely, and pretty much have always felt that way about it.
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Considering I entered the DT party between TOT and Octavarium, this is my favorite DT album.
I bought the version with the "making of" DVD and loved the documentary. I can never listen to Forsaken without thinking of JP screwing up on the solo and saying "That sucked!" without laughing.
BCSL felt like a let down after SC, even though I like a lot of the songs on that album (but hate the sound quality).
I will say that Repentance is a mixed bag for me. I like the song, love JP's thoughtful solo, but I am not crazy about is the part when everyone is all talking over each other about what they regret, etc. and also MP's low harmonized speech afterward. But hey, that's what audio editors are for.
I'm fine with ITPOE being split in two, I like part 1 more than 2 though.
TMOLS goes a little long, but I love JP's outro solo.
Minor complaints really...it just resonates with me for some reason.
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I really like a majority of the album. Repentance and ITPOE 2 are too long. And though I've tried to enjoy it over the years. The Ministry of Lost souls is the worst song the band ever did. It's a fun album that overstays it's welcome
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I really like a majority of the album. Repentance and ITPOE 2 are too long. And though I've tried to enjoy it over the years. The Ministry of Lost souls is the worst song the band ever did. It's a fun album that overstays it's welcome
So you like the "majority", and then proceed to bash like 43 of its 78 minutes? :lol
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I like most of Repentance and ITPOE 2. I just feel like there's an extra 2 or three minutes were they overstay their welcome. I love ITPOE 1, Constant Motion, TDEN, POW. The rest I consider above average, though far from perfect. I only actively dislike the one song.
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I can’t remember if I already posted on this thread but...
When I first got into dream theater I was a huge Styx fan... yes I admit it and I was only 15 years. Still a guilty pleasure of mine.
Anyways, images and words was basically Styx with balls... it was like aor magic combined with Metallica and genesis.
SC just had absolutely NONE of the aor/Styx vibe and it’s easily james’ worst album because of it. That is where James shines. The vocal production is cold and stale.
D/T is finally back to the James of old! Really since DT12 James has been returning to form.
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It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.
ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here
Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.
Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.
TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.
Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.
POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!
TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.
Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.
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It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.
ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here
Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.
Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.
TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.
Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.
POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!
TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.
Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.
Production... it’s just not that enjoyable to listen to imo.
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It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.
ITPOE (1+2): I feel like this song has aged incredibly well. Not to say it was ever hated, but I see so much love for it these days. I'm always seeing requests for it on reaction channels, and lots of praise elsewhere. Maybe not considered their best epic, but when in the company of Octavarium, SDOIT, and ACOS that isn't really saying much. This is almost ONE THIRD of the album right here
Forsaken: I actually think that, for one of their more "commercial" tunes, this song is pretty well-received. It seems like it has gained a bit more respect over the years. It seems like a song that everyone would bash, but I see generally positive vibes about it. I love it personally - great chorus and what an awesome little solo by JP.
Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.
TDEN: Admittedly not a personal favorite, but again - I see a lot of love for this song, and trying to gauge how others see this album is what this post is about. I have actually seen people with this song in their top 5! Respectable, since this song is very experimental and I like that about it. Also - does anyone else feel like this song pops up on a lot of their set lists? If it was truly hated, they'd probably never/rarely play it. So I think it's another net positive.
Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.
POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!
TMOLS: And here it is. This is the song that makes or breaks the album for most people. The range between hate and love for this song may just be the largest of any DT song. It's a mini-epic, so it makes up a big chunk of this album. If this song was universally loved (or even loved to the extent of a song like "The Count of Tuscany" is), I believe that alone would project this album into the middle of the pack for most DT fans. I absolutely love this song (best outro ever! And possibly my favorite chord progression), but MANY hate it. I think a big reason is due to the slow tempo of the first half of the song.
Overall, I rank this album somewhere around 7th or 8th. There are days that I rank it above Octavarium, and it's DEFINITELY ahead of DT12, TA, D/T, FIF, and WDADU. I can see how this album will probably never be anyone's #1 favorite, but it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.
no
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Considering SC was the album that got me into DT I am very fond of it!
I can understand some of the criticism, but I still think that it's a fun album with lots of amazing moments overall. With that being said I do tend to skip Repentance and TMOLS. I don't think they're bad songs, but I'm somehow not in the mood to listen to them very often.
One super nitpicky thing that I have been thinking about ever since I watched the "making of" is that I'm a bit bitter that the vocal melody JLB did for the "To the ends of the earth" part in Forsaken didn't end up on the album. It was much better IMO. It's no big deal, but everytime I listen to Forsaken I'm just reminded of that.
But yeah, I still really like it!
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I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War. I love every part of it - the highlight of an otherwise sub par album for me. Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.
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ITPOE is fun in a silly metal way. But that's it. I never play this record. The cover art and title are the best things about it.
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If it was just
ITPOE1
TMOLS
ITPOE2
I would consider it a masterpiece, one of the best progressive metal albums of all time.
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I would agree with you. ...if you took out TMOLS and added Forsaken, Constant Motion, and The Dark Eternal Night.
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I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War. I love every part of it - the highlight of an otherwise sub par album for me. Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.
It's not a bad song, really, it just doesn't sound too much like a "DT" song, and those high pitched vocals Mike added... just no.
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I would agree with you. ...if you took out TMOLS and added Forsaken, Constant Motion, and The Dark Eternal Night.
I like all those songs, but I'm imagining it as if DT's discography came out during the 70s and 80s or the band were 'less is more' when it came to how much music to release at once.
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It's not a bad song, really, it just doesn't sound too much like a "DT" song, and those high pitched vocals Mike added... just no.
Yet that's one of the best parts... Opinions, right? ;D
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It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.
Constant Motion: I must say that personally, this is one of my favorite of DT's straight metal tracks. That main riff is just fantastic. This is another song I see people generally love, though since it is very metal, there are always going to be a lot of people who don't enjoy it. Still though - it's a net positive on the album.
Repentance: I love this song, but I feel like for the people who rank this album low, this is where the album starts to dip. This song is pretty split - many like it, many hate it, and many consider it an average DT song. For me it's a hair above average (love JP's solo and that outro), but overall this song may weigh the album down a bit to others.
POW: Ah, yes. Maybe one of the least talked about DT songs? This is generally a love it or hate it song, and I believe more people hate it. I've always enjoyed it but for the purpose of this post, I think this is a song that the majority of people consider to be a bad one. If I'm wrong about this please correct me!
... it's just hard for me to understand it being their absolute worst.
Not difficult for me at all. It's a sonic disaster and difficult to listen to all the way though in spite it.
It's the only Dream Theater album that has that effect on me.
The lyrics to the cartoon metal songs are Astonishing-level bad.
Don't think too highly of the direct references to the Korean comic or manga or whatever it was either.
That said, I do like the three songs above, especially Prophets Of War.
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As an album it's all over the place. High highs, low lows. ITPOE is mostly great, though the solo section does nothing for me. Forsaken and POW are very good, Constant Motion is ok.
Repentance is good, except for the spoken apologies that make the song several minutes longer than it needs to be. TMOLS... the first half drags, the second half dulls. And TDEN is one of their worst songs.
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I just dont get the hate for Prophets of War. I love every part of it. Wish DT would do more straight ahead rockers like it.
I agree 1000%. Systematic Chaos is one of my least favorite DT albums but I started re-visiting it the other day. It's been awhile since I've given it a good listen. ITPOE pt 1 is awesome, pt 2, not so much for me. Constant motion is probably my 2nd least favorite DT song....ever. While on the other end of the spectrum POW is an awesome song, and like you I don't quite get the hate for it.
TDEN still rocks and I still love TMOLS.
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I recently came across the authentic guitar tab edition book for Systematic Chaos at my local music store. I've been learning some of Constant Motion pretty much up through the first chorus. I'll tell you what, that intro is a mind bender and takes some practice to get it smooth.
I was laughing the other day because I watched part of the Making of SC dvd to see how JP did the fingering on that riff, and Jordan was jamming along with him playing that same riff in unison with his right hand while sipping on a cup of coffee from his left. All too easy... :lol
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Since someone else bumped this thread....
It's always kinda puzzled me how this album is generally considered one of their worst (THE worst according to many). Running through the songs, it seems like it would be more of a middle-of-the-pack album. In other words, many people have this album ranked 13th or 14th. But it always seems more like an album people would rank in the 8th - 10th area.
Well...ummm...you seem to be baffled about the album being "generally considered one of [DT's] wrorst," but your support for that seems only to be that you like it better than what you perceive to be the consensus.
Since you gave your subjective opinions on each song, I'll do likewise and explain why, for me, SC is a bottom three DT album:
ITPOE: I was disappointed by this song in a matter of a couple minutes. I remember the first time I listened to this song. I thought the intro section was cool. And then, just when I thought it ought to be wrapping up, JR and JP went into ultra-wank mode. The song never recovered. It's long and bland and has little that I find interesting. And one of the worst parts about listening to SC is knowing the second part is looming at the end (sort of like having to answer an essay question after having slogged through 100 multiple choice questions on a test).
Forsaken: It's fine. Nothing objectionable about it, but it's also not terribly memorable.
Constant Motion: Great song. Love it. Only bad comment is about the second, scratchy-sounding verse.
The Dark Eternal Night: My opinion changes about this with some regularity. I've never thought it was great. Parts of it are good. Parts are silly. The fact that it was easily spliced into a Mario run through says a lot ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-QGtEIHc3g&t=46s ). It's a bit better live than on the album.
Repentance: This remains my absolute #1 worst DT song of all time. I find nothing redeeming about this song. I think you have overestimated how it is regarded by "most fans."
Prophets of War: It's well below average, but I don't think I dislike it as much as a lot of folks here.
The Ministry of Lost Souls: I never liked this song and really still don't. However, a re-listen a while back showed that the song isn't as bad as I thought. So...the nicest thing I can say about it is that I don't dislike it as much as I had thought.
So...there you go. For every other DT album (save TA), there are multiple songs that are great (even FII has five songs that I think are at least really good). However, if I were making any sort of DT playlist, CM is the only song that would make the cut.
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I agree about Repentance, that song just never did anything to get my attention. Just dark, dull, and boring.
As far as the rest of the songs, Systematic Chaos is a fantastic album! :metal
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I agree about Repentance, that song just never did anything to get my attention. Just dark, dull, and boring.
As far as the rest of the songs, Systematic Chaos is a fantastic album! :metal
I agree. I don't like Repentance very much either and I also don't really care for CM. But other than that I love the rest of the songs. And ITPoE is my favorite DT song.
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So regarding Repentance...
I know SC gets a lot of grief, but it might be the DT album that has the most variety.
I personally don't listen to Repentance a lot, but I respect the hell out of it. It has a a total Pink Floyd vibe. I love the distorted spoken words parts and it has an amazing and underrated JP solo. I also think the lyrics are excellent.
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Probably better suited for the controversial opinion thread, but Repentance is my favourite (i.e. I actually like it) song in the whole 12 steps Voltron.
It sounds great, has the most effective lyrics and emotional connection in the suite, everything TAC said above, plus shades of '69-'70 King Crimson in pace and orchestration.
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I like Repentance, but I would like it better if both the intro and outro were shorter.
Not talking about any of the spoken word stuff, that's all good. But the song is still just a little too long.
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Probably better suited for the controversial opinion thread, but Repentance is my favourite (i.e. I actually like it) song in the whole 12 steps Voltron.
:lol :lol
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Now i'm listening to S.C. since this thread got bumped.
Foresaken still sucks.
And I'm sure Prophets of War will also.
But ... ITPOE and Ministry of Lost Souls are amazing.
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I still love SC more than most people here. It's a very diverse album, with heavy, prog, melodic and everything in between.
And THAT riff on ITPOE pt. 2 that starts around 6:30 is one of the heaviest, most amazing riffs they've ever done :metal :metal :metal
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Now i'm listening to S.C. since this thread got bumped.
Foresaken still sucks.
And I'm sure Prophets of War will also.
But ... ITPOE and Ministry of Lost Souls are amazing.
I have died from the daggers of your blasphemous words!
Sorry for being way overdramatic. Your feelings on those songs are common around here. I just happen to really like both of them.
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Now i'm listening to S.C. since this thread got bumped.
Foresaken still sucks.
And I'm sure Prophets of War will also.
But ... ITPOE and Ministry of Lost Souls are amazing.
Well, you almost nailed it except for Forsaken which I'll admit isn't one of their greatest songs, but it's still pretty far from "sucks". Having said that, PoW is near bottom of the barrel for me, but I would still be reluctant to say it sucks. However, I can see how others think it sucks.
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I love PoW.
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I never really liked this album that much. First DT album I remember being disappointed with. Ministry and TDEN are great however. The rest is kind of meh for me.
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Systematic Chaos was definitely towards the lower end of my album rankings but I guess has risen a bit over the years (due to new albums being released). I used to only listen to ITPOE but over the years I've grown to like some of the other songs.
ITPOE: I love Part 1, it's one of my favorite songs. Part 2 is mostly great, unfortunately The Reckoning kinda ruins it a little for me, I just find it boring and drawn out. Love everything else about the song. Also don't really mind how it's split in the album.
Forsaken: It's ok. I used to not like the song at all but its grown on me a little.
Constant Motion: The only redeeming part of this song is Portnoys drumming around the 4 minute mark or so. I hate the song otherwise, one of the few DT songs I just flat out don't listen to.
The Dark Eternal Night: I've always thought this song was really fun.
Repentance: Don't care for it.
Prophets of War: Mediocre. I get in some rare moods sometimes where I enjoy listening to it though.
The Ministry of Lost Souls: I enjoy this song a lot but I think it'd be better if it was a little shorter.
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Gave this album a listen on my long drive in the work van today. Enjoyed as much as I usually do.
ITPOE: Great song, love the way it is split on the album.
Forsaken: Good song, solid #2 song
Constant Motion: One of my least favorite DT songs. Nothing I like about it.
The Dark Eternal Night: Another one of my least favorite DT songs. Nothing I like about it.
Repentance: Really enjoy the first half of this song. Once the spoken word parts start, I lose interest. Such potential. Mike did such a fantastic job writing lyrics to coincide with the 12 steps I wish he could have done the same for Step 9 instead of doing what they did. And I hate the weird vocal effects on the 12 Promises.
Prophets of War: Cool song. Am glad the wrote a song like this. Am likewise glad they only wrote one song like this. Again, annoying vocal effects on the "I see you sweat..." part. So dumb.
The Ministry of Lost Souls: Great song.
ITPOE 2: The first section of Pt2 is one of my favorite things DT has ever done. James aces this part. The instrumental is longer than it needs to be, but I am not bothered by it as much as many others.
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Prophets of War is pretty bad.
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Gave this album a listen on my long drive in the work van today. Enjoyed as much as I usually do.
ITPOE: Great song, love the way it is split on the album.
Forsaken: Good song, solid #2 song
Constant Motion: One of my least favorite DT songs. Nothing I like about it.
The Dark Eternal Night: Another one of my least favorite DT songs. Nothing I like about it.
Repentance: Really enjoy the first half of this song. Once the spoken word parts start, I lose interest. Such potential. Mike did such a fantastic job writing lyrics to coincide with the 12 steps I wish he could have done the same for Step 9 instead of doing what they did. And I hate the weird vocal effects on the 12 Promises.
Prophets of War: Cool song. Am glad the wrote a song like this. Am likewise glad they only wrote one song like this. Again, annoying vocal effects on the "I see you sweat..." part. So dumb.
The Ministry of Lost Souls: Great song.
ITPOE 2: The first section of Pt2 is one of my favorite things DT has ever done. James aces this part. The instrumental is longer than it needs to be, but I am not bothered by it as much as many others.
What he did with step 9 is about the best thing you can do regarding that step. It's about amends and asking for forgiveness and he had other musicians come in and say their regrets.
The song could've been cut after someone says "It still haunts me." A measure of those ahhs then end with "The Truth is the Truth."
I do like the sounds in the background during Step 9. Those little vocoder "Ows" and soundscapes.
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Prophets of War is pretty bad.
Hef, I know that a lot of folks feel the same way you do about PoW. However, I just don't see any reason to not like it so much. What is it about the song that you don't like? I'm genuinely curious.
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Prophets of War is pretty bad.
Hef, I know that a lot of folks feel the same way you do about PoW. However, I just don't see any reason to not like it so much. What is it about the song that you don't like? I'm genuinely curious.
I'm not putting you off or anything, but I haven't listened to it in a LONG time, and I don't feel like listening to it again just so I can analyze why I don't like it.
Some things that stand out from memory are the chessy Queen-like backing vocals. I know that MP thought they were neat, but they are just cheesy and cringe-inducing.
Also the disco feel of that whole section.
Also, the double entendre in the title is just poor, poor writing. Something I would expect from an amateur band, not seasoned professionals.
And a lot of other things.
One thing that I do like, musically, is when it breaks down to just an acoustic guitar, with James singing softly over it. Pity that couldn't have been done in a better song.
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The Dark Eternal Night came up on my playlist driving home from work today. Maybe it’s a dumb question, but is MP the main vocal in the verses with JLB providing background vocals or are they both singing lead?
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Nope, it's a super dry JLB with back vocals from MP :D
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Constant Motion is really the only song I ever revisit here. The chorus is a bit on the weaker side but it’s a good straight headbanger with DT channeling their inner Metallica. I even like the JLB/Portnoy vocal 1-2 punch. It works for me here. Petrucci sounds great with an awesome solo and Portnoy is on fire. I love JR as much as the next guy but the song would probably be better if he had just sat this one out.
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Constant Motion is really the only song I ever revisit here. The chorus is a bit on the weaker side but it’s a good straight headbanger with DT channeling their inner Metallica. I even like the JLB/Portnoy vocal 1-2 punch. It works for me here. Petrucci sounds great with an awesome solo and Portnoy is on fire. I love JR as much as the next guy but the song would probably be better if he had just sat this one out.
100% agree.
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I voted "pretty bad" because I think the lyrics on this one are not Dream Theater's finest moment. I get that Petrucci was going for a fantasy theme here, but Dark Masters and Vampire Bites just felt really out of place from a band whose works up to then had carried much more lyrical gravitas. This felt like a high-school play, lyrically.
Musically it's got some really brilliant moments (the opening and closing tracks, for example) and some not so brilliant, Repentance, the Vampire song and that electronica thing all felt like tracks that should have been released on a "rarities" album or something like that, or maybe a 1-off EP like ACOS.
Generally speaking there are 3 tracks on this album I listen to, the rest I don't have a lot of use for.
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After watching the Behind the Scenes documentary, this album is there fun album. They just made songs that were fun and in that spirit JP decided to make fiction style lyrics.
I don't take this album seriously at all. They have many other albums where they get serious. But these songs are just fun to listen to. It's why I was ecstatic when they played ITPOE pt.1, Was worth not looking at the setlist either.
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After watching the Behind the Scenes documentary, this album is [their] fun album. They just made songs that were fun
Ummm...what's "fun" about Repentance? Or TMOLS?
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After watching the Behind the Scenes documentary, this album is [their] fun album. They just made songs that were fun
Ummm...what's "fun" about Repentance? Or TMOLS?
Nothing. It's boring. :biggrin:
It's just the overall vibe I got from them based off the Documentary.
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After watching the Behind the Scenes documentary, this album is [their] fun album. They just made songs that were fun
Ummm...what's "fun" about Repentance? Or TMOLS?
Nothing. It's boring. :biggrin:
It's just the overall vibe I got from them based off the Documentary.
I get that Repentance is boring mostly due to its extraordinarily slow pace, but TMoLS is anything but boring. Yeah, it starts out slow but quickly becomes a power ballad and the instrumental section is brilliantly energetic topped off with one of JP's best solos, the awesome unison and one of DT's most epic outros.
Yeah, I also got that vibe from the documentary and with the exception of Repentance and probably PoW too, there's a lot of fun stuff going on.
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After watching the Behind the Scenes documentary, this album is [their] fun album. They just made songs that were fun
Ummm...what's "fun" about Repentance? Or TMOLS?
Nothing. It's boring. :biggrin:
It's just the overall vibe I got from them based off the Documentary.
I get that Repentance is boring mostly due to its extraordinarily slow pace, but TMoLS is anything but boring. Yeah, it starts out slow but quickly becomes a power ballad and the instrumental section is brilliantly energetic topped off with one of JP's best solos, the awesome unison and one of DT's most epic outros.
Yeah, I also got that vibe from the documentary and with the exception of Repentance and probably PoW too, there's a lot of fun stuff going on.
TMoLS is actually my 2nd favorite off of SC.
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Ministry. I like the first half and wish the instrumental section kept the same sort of vibe rather than going off like a typical DT instrumental section at that time. The stupid odd-time guitar riff makes another appearance. Imagine a dark, moody instrumental section instead of the one we got. It'd be pretty different for them and elevate Ministry into a pretty unique song but it's just Sacrificed Sons Pt. 2.
or Endless Sacrifice Pt. 3
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Still better than Black Clouds (by a large margin).
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Who does the very deep voice spoken word stuff on Repentance...and is it an effect?
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Seems like MP (https://youtu.be/-iday5VQ_Jg?t=360), & I assume the effect is just an octave pedal.
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Seems like MP (https://youtu.be/-iday5VQ_Jg?t=360), & I assume the effect is just an octave pedal.
Thanks, mang. I haven't watched the Systematic Chaos bonus thing in a long time. I forgot about that. I always thought that voice sounded kinda silly.
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Seems like MP (https://youtu.be/-iday5VQ_Jg?t=360), & I assume the effect is just an octave pedal.
Thanks, mang. I haven't watched the Systematic Chaos bonus thing in a long time. I forgot about that. I always thought that voice sounded kinda silly.
This.
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Seems like MP (https://youtu.be/-iday5VQ_Jg?t=360), & I assume the effect is just an octave pedal.
Thanks, mang. I haven't watched the Systematic Chaos bonus thing in a long time. I forgot about that. I always thought that voice sounded kinda silly.
This.
Agree. The 12 Promises are a great part of AA, and I like that he wanted to incorporate that in to the song/suite, but I don't like the way it was executed.
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I always thought that section worked better in the context of the entire AA suite.
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I think Portnoy did the weird deep voice thing on Train of Thought as well...whichever song is part of The 12 Step Suite.
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I think Portnoy did the weird deep voice thing on Train of Thought as well...whichever song is part of The 12 Step Suite.
This Dying Soul? Nope, you must be thinking of something else. I'm pretty sure it's just Repentance.
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He did it on The Shattered Fortress on Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
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I think Portnoy did the weird deep voice thing on Train of Thought as well...whichever song is part of The 12 Step Suite.
This Dying Soul? Nope, you must be thinking of something else. I'm pretty sure it's just Repentance.
He did it on The Shattered Fortress on Black Clouds & Silver Linings.
Whoops, my mistake :facepalm:
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The spoken-word part is in TDS as well, but it's JLB doing it & there's no deep voice filter. ("These tormented ghosts of yesterday...")
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I listened to ITPOE Pt. 2 for the first time in years yesterday.
It's an exciting ride, for sure, but to me is one of DT's more uninspired epics, It's got amazing parts like the "angels fall" chorus and the "orchestral" reprise of the main motiff at the end but oh boy, Pt. 1 is so much better as a standalone piece. I'm aware they split the song up because they thought it was amazing as an album opener and as an album closer, but I'm so glad they did. ITPOE Pt. 1 reminds me a lot of the straightforward, edgy and shorter song style they've been exploring in the Mangini era with ADOTE, DT12 and DOT which I do like a lot.
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I listened to ITPOE Pt. 2 for the first time in years yesterday.
It's an exciting ride, for sure, but to me is one of DT's more uninspired epics, It's got amazing parts like the "angels fall" chorus and the "orchestral" reprise of the main motiff at the end but oh boy, Pt. 1 is so much better as a standalone piece. I'm aware they split the song up because they thought it was amazing as an album opener and as an album closer, but I'm so glad they did. ITPOE Pt. 1 reminds me a lot of the straightforward, edgy and shorter song style they've been exploring in the Mangini era with ADOTE, DT12 and DOT which I do like a lot.
I think ITPOE works better split up as well.
Even putting just Ministry of Lost Souls in between pt 1 and pt 2 is great, and a strong single vinyl length album.
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I agree that it works better as two different songs as well. It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak. Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.
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I agree that it works better as two different songs as well. It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak. Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.
For some reason, with written compositions at least, once you approach the 40 minute mark, it just feels easier to digest if it's broken up into separate tracks, even if you just listen to it straight through every time. I listen to things like Six Degrees or The Whirlwind straight through every time, even though they're tracked. I rarely, if ever, listen to the individual tracks. But it's good as a placeholder to see where we're at while the music is happening.
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For me it's 25 minutes, and even that is pushing it.
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For me it's 25 minutes, and even that is pushing it.
Agreed. I've heard very few 25+ minute tracks I wouldn't want to either split up or shorten. Off the top of my head, only Cassandra Gemini comes to mind. I know that long songs are an appealing thing to prog fans, but I think side-long epics are usually long enough for me. :lol
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I agree that it works better as two different songs as well. It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak. Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.
For some reason, with written compositions at least, once you approach the 40 minute mark, it just feels easier to digest if it's broken up into separate tracks, even if you just listen to it straight through every time. I listen to things like Six Degrees or The Whirlwind straight through every time, even though they're tracked. I rarely, if ever, listen to the individual tracks. But it's good as a placeholder to see where we're at while the music is happening.
I didn't know The Whirlwind was one whole song. Agreed about the niceness of having long pieces split up.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
Agree on everything you said! A lot of great riffing and story telling, TDEN is the coolest song ever written on the 7 string guitar. :metal
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT
is good.
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×2
The Dark Eternal Night RULZ! :metal
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As usual JP knocked it out of the park with the TDEN guitar work :metal
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT
Is it really though? I mean, structurally it works. The only bad part about it was MP trying to make JL sound bad ass. Like I said before, this was their fun album. So, why can't TDEN just be considered fun? Sure it's probably their weirdest song, but its' not like it's objectively bad. It's not Burning My Soul. :D
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The Dark Eternal Night is a great DT metal song. Burning My Soul is a great DT metal song. TDEN is more technical and expansive but BMS has LaBrie doing a more natural aggressive voice. They’re both super fun, and great live!
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The Dark Nintendo Night (https://youtu.be/E-QGtEIHc3g)
I still can't believe they showed this while on tour too! :rollin
HE
IS
RISEN UP
-Marc.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
It really wasn’t necessary . . .
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The Dark Eternal Night sounded so much better during the Images, Words, and Beyond tour.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
REPENTANCE
ftfEVERYONE
I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
No problem with resurrecting it. (although I thought there was a more recent one, but whatever)
IMO, there are some "bad" songs. But there are also some spectacular ones. To me, it is a very inconsistent album, and as I've said many times in the past, I put it right alongside Images & Words in that regard. But I'll take In the Presence of Enemies, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN any day of the week. As for the others:
-Repentance: Some really great ideas that suffer a bit because of the role this track played in the overall 12SS. I really loved it the first few listens, but it doesn't have much replay value for me as a standalone song. And, again, viewed as a standalone song, even the really good ideas (e.g., the confessions part) drag on too long and start to feel very monotonous to me. When played as part of the entire suite, it fits better.
-Prophets: Easily my least favorite DT song ever. (although the ruff underneath the chorus is pretty cool)
-TMOLS: Great instrumental section, but the song overall bores me to tears. (although it works better as an album closer if the tracks are rearranged)
But I'll also point out a couple of other things:
1. The things I've said about those last three songs are probably the most unkind opinions I have of any of DT's music. And, again, I really love the other songs.
2. Since SC came out, my "modified" track listing might be my most listened to DT album.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
REPENTANCE
ftfEVERYONE
I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN
Yes! Repentance is the one song in their catalog that really gets under my skin. The few times that I don’t skip it I keep going “why???” the whole time I’m listening to it. Why make an obvious Opeth ballad. The idea of having the guest speakers isn’t terrible, but why make it go in twice as long as it should have. And then that droning riff that goes on and on and on. Then more spoken word at the end. It should end like five different times. Of course, it’s not all bad because JP has to walk in and play a badass solo because everything he does is so fucking perfect.
/rant
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
REPENTANCE
ftfEVERYONE
I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN
Yes! Repentance is the one song in their catalog that really gets under my skin. The few times that I don’t skip it I keep going “why???” the whole time I’m listening to it. Why make an obvious Opeth ballad. The idea of having the guest speakers isn’t terrible, but why make it go in twice as long as it should have. And then that droning riff that goes on and on and on. Then more spoken word at the end. It should end like five different times. Of course, it’s not all bad because JP has to walk in and play a badass solo because everything he does is so fucking perfect.
/rant
As song by itself it gets a bit long, but I always think of it within he context of The 12 Step Suite. When I do that, it's not that bad. And the solo is one of my favs.
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The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”. Even then, it’s still overlong.
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The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”. Even then, it’s still overlong.
Same.
I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.
I don't like TDS.
I like Root, but it's not great.
Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.
TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.
That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.
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Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.
I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.
It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.
THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT
You misspelled Prophets of War
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For the record, "Ministry of Lost Souls" is a top 10 all time DT song for me :)
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The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”. Even then, it’s still overlong.
Same.
I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.
I don't like TDS.
I like Root, but it's not great.
Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.
TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.
That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it. When it came time for The Shattered Fortress, it seemed so forced. With a cut and paste arrangement. But I will admit that when they played it live in 2014, it was great.
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Being in a very DT-mood for the last few weeks, I had gone through their entire catalog at least once, but I found myself coming back to this one during the past week a lot since it was the lead-up to Halloween, and I think SC has the most "spooky" vibe of all their albums given the lyrics are about somewhat Halloween-y kind of things with vampires, spirits, monsters, Dark Masters, etc. It's a very good Halloween-time album!
The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”. Even then, it’s still overlong.
Same.
I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.
I don't like TDS.
I like Root, but it's not great.
Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.
TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.
That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it. When it came time for The Shattered Fortress, it seemed so forced. With a cut and paste arrangement. But I will admit that when they played it live in 2014, it was great.
When I discovered the band, the 12SS was only 2 songs in, so as the following three releases came out, I was obsessed with hearing how they all would fit together and grew to love and appreciate each song as they came out. I've made a personal edit that puts all five songs together and makes them flow and segue seamlessly into a suite that is exactly 55:51 long with no gaps or silence at all - just nearly 56 minutes of music. In the other thread about favorite "pieces of DT music" I rated the 12SS as one of my favorites, even above epics like ACOS and ITPOE, simply because I've really grown to enjoy it over the years. But I definitely can see why some fans would dislike some, or most of the music in the suite to the point of skipping those tracks on their respective albums. I'm sure the suite got worse and worse with each new album for some fans, and I understand how some might even dislike "Repentance" but I like how different it is from the other four songs and that it develops some musical ideas more while doing something new for the suite, as well as sounding different on the album its from as well.
-Marc.
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I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.
I don't even understand what you mean about that. What is there to buy into?
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I think this album did something great which was taking a different approach from 8V - meaning: it sounded different and I like that. I think there are some really good songs in the album with both CM and TDEN being made to be played live. I get the idea behind splitting ITPOE into two though I'd prefer it as one piece.
That said the album in in the lower end of my rank: Forsaken is OK but I rarely feel the want to listen to it unless I'm purposely listening to the entire album. POW is among my least preferred songs, it feels too much trying to sound like Muse. TMOLS has some cool parts, and I don't mind the instrumental at all but again not my preferred sound. Repentance is instant skip for me. Even CM is a good song but for me it's mostly for JP's solo and MP's drum work during that same part.
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I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.
I don't even understand what you mean about that. What is there to buy into?
Maybe that’s not the best way to phrase it. What I mean is I’ve never really thought of it as a suite in the same way I do SDOIT or A Mind Beside Itself. I don’t think of the songs of how they fit with the other songs, or care about listening to them back to back. And how they “flow” with each other. Nor do I have any desire to hear them all played together like some people have talked about before.
I gave my opinion on Repentance and The Shattered Fortress earlier. I will say the first three songs are great, but the idea that they go together rarely crosses my mind when listening to them.
Obviously this is my opinion but that’s what I meant.
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At first I only liked the first half. Then I grew to enjoy the second half. Now I find the entire second half plodding and boring.
I really enjoy the first 4 tracks though. But over time I barely listen to this album anymore.
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At first I only liked the first half. Then I grew to enjoy the second half. Now I find the entire second half plodding and boring.
I really enjoy the first 4 tracks though. But over time I barely listen to this album anymore.
The first half is money. ITPOE is cool altogether, but I can take the first part by itself just fine. It kicked ass on the last tour.
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Part 1 should have opened the album for sure. But Part II should have been something else. I don't like the instrumental section in it either.
The whole album is just Ehhhhhhh. ( imo of course ) and a poor follow up to Octavarium.
Black Clouds has two fewer tracks but is a much more enjoyable album overall I think..
Octavarium is my favourite album and Systematic my least favourite.
Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.
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Part 1 should have opened the album for sure. But Part II should have been something else. I don't like the instrumental section in it either.
The whole album is just Ehhhhhhh. ( imo of course ) and a poor follow up to Octavarium.
Black Clouds has two fewer tracks but is a much more enjoyable album overall I think..
Octavarium is my favourite album and Systematic my least favourite.
Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.
It was the awful mix that did it for me. It is a good memory though because I saw them in Vancouver on that tour.
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I love ItPoE pts 1 and 2 and Ministry.
I like Forsaken and PoW quite a bit.
I drank TDEN and CM in the bottom 10 songs in their discography
I think the first part of Repentance is fine, the second half could be my least favorite section of any DT song.
I have no idea what to make of this album sometimes.
Also Score is a great concert video and Chaos In Motion is not.
Whoa, slow down there Jimmy, where do you get off posting such a hot take?
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I love ItPoE pts 1 and 2 and Ministry.
I like Forsaken and PoW quite a bit.
I drank TDEN and CM in the bottom 10 songs in their discography
I think the first part of Repentance is fine, the second half could be my least favorite section of any DT song.
I have no idea what to make of this album sometimes.
I know the feeling too. Even though I think pretty highly of this album, if I take too much time and really think about, it gets a bit ridiculous. Like I said before, I conciser it their fun album. There is just something about it that makes it enjoyable to listen too. It might be the lyrical content, or the production, or the absurd songs. It just always stuck me as a fun album.
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I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.
I don't even understand what you mean about that. What is there to buy into?
Maybe that’s not the best way to phrase it. What I mean is I’ve never really thought of it as a suite in the same way I do SDOIT or A Mind Beside Itself. I don’t think of the songs of how they fit with the other songs, or care about listening to them back to back. And how they “flow” with each other. Nor do I have any desire to hear them all played together like some people have talked about before.
I gave my opinion on Repentance and The Shattered Fortress earlier. I will say the first three songs are great, but the idea that they go together rarely crosses my mind when listening to them.
Obviously this is my opinion but that’s what I meant.
Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.
If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?
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Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.
If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?
Obviously, no. But those other songs were written as one piece. The 12 Step songs are separate songs, written separately over the course of like 7-8 years.
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Well, the big difference is that the other pieces you mentioned were presented as one piece, consecutively, on their respective albums, while this suite was spread across five albums.
If it had been presented as one piece, would you still regard it differently than those others?
Obviously, no. But those other songs were written as one piece. The 12 Step songs are separate songs, written separately over the course of like 7-8 years.
I guess. I mean, with each one, they were written kind of one at a time, no matter how long it took.
I don't know, I just don't see the problem with it. I don't even understand HAVING a problem with it. Each one is obviously a continuation/progression from the ones that came before, with The Shattered Fortress being the obvious conclusion. I just don't get your issue.
Which is fine, of course.
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I don’t have a problem or issue with it necessarily. I guess I never made a big deal over these songs being one big thing the way most fans have.
And I’m really just picking at the songs to justify my feelings.
It’s a “me” problem for sure lol. I have nothing against the whole thing, or anyone who thinks it’s awesome.
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SC followed up Octavarium well, and once again something different than what preceded. Not their best album, but far from their worst at this point. People talk about the band's new album A View as fresh, but Systematic Chaos is truly what sounds like a band not resting on their laurels and putting out something new for them, while still retaining their own identity. I think SC is a step down from their previous efforts, as I don't like the track order, think POW is a bad song, and TMOLS has never been a favorite. I think the flow of the album is mostly good until after TDEN and then things seem to lose focus. I don't like split of ITPOE either. I like Repentance but I like it better in the context of the 12SS. Overall, I feel like the majority of the Mangini era borrows from this album a lot, with dash of IaW without the early 90s production, and I even heard some SC stuff on LTEƎ. BC&SL is better.
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I used to go back and forth between which album I liked more - Systematic or Black Clouds but now I firmly think Black Clouds is the superior album.
Even though Nightmare is too long...I think Wither is better than Forsaken. I prefer Shattered Fortress to Dark Eternal Night and think The Count of Tuscany is
a much better epic overall than In The Presence of Enemies. Plus The Best of Times has an amazing three minute outro solo.
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I love ITPOE (especially pt 2) and TDEN (despite the cringe lyrics), the rest of SC is not their best work though.
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I have always loved Prophet Of War. People complain about things as DT by Numbers, and PoW is anything but.
People want DT to branch out, but then again, do they really?
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A good song is a good song… dream theater can branch out and also make it a song people like.
Most people loved three days and that song was weird as hell and super theatrical.
I personally don’t mind POW as I don’t find it any worse or better then the rest of the album. It’s one of my least favorite albums by them.
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I have always loved Prophet Of War. People complain about things as DT by Numbers, and PoW is anything but.
People want DT to branch out, but then again, do they really?
Considering that every little attempt has been vigorously defenestrated, I would say no. They don't.
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" We want another concept album "
Here You Go.
" :angry: Not like THAT go back to your classic sound "
Here you Are.
" :angry: OMG this is just same old same old "
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I think POW is an awful, awful song.
But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.
But I hate it.
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I think POW is an awful, awful song.
But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.
But I hate it.
See, this is how fans should be. “I hate your song, but I'm happy for you!” :lol
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I like PoW, I think it's a fun song.
This album was the first release since I learned about DT. I was fresh out of high school and knew a few DT songs (PMU, ITNOG, AIA and Panic Attack). Didn't listen to the whole album then, but I liked the few songs I heard (CM, PoW and Forsaken). I don't listen to it as much nowadays, but it's mainly because of how strong the rest of their discography is, not because it's a bad album.
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I didn't like SC when it first released, and I can't say it's aged well for me. My least favorite DT album for sure. The only song I like going back to is Ministry of Lost Souls, which has some some atmosphere and a very interesting melodic progression. As for the rest... well, Dark Eternal Night for example might be the least enjoyable DT song ever for me. An obnoxious lead riff, silly lyrics, and a really unflattering vocal performance from JLB and Portnoy. It's weird because I LOVE heavy DT, especially on Train of Thought. As I Am, In the Name of God, etc, those are emotive, incredible metal songs. Constant Motion and TDEN sound like parodies by comparison.
ITPoE is also my least favorite epic from the band. I still smirk at the 'Dark masterrr' delivery in Part II. The whole album has these strange, almost juvenile vocal and compositional choices. I don't know what they were thinking with some of these tracks.
The band's nadir for me. Fortunately, they REALLY bounced back with the Mangini era. DoT and View have some of their best work ever IMO.
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It was their first where I felt I should like it more than I actually did.
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I didn't like SC when it first released, and I can't say it's aged well for me. My least favorite DT album for sure. The only song I like going back to is Ministry of Lost Souls, which has some some atmosphere and a very interesting melodic progression. As for the rest... well, Dark Eternal Night for example might be the least enjoyable DT song ever for me. An obnoxious lead riff, silly lyrics, and a really unflattering vocal performance from JLB and Portnoy. It's weird because I LOVE heavy DT, especially on Train of Thought. As I Am, In the Name of God, etc, those are emotive, incredible metal songs. Constant Motion and TDEN sound like parodies by comparison.
ITPoE is also my least favorite epic from the band. I still smirk at the 'Dark masterrr' delivery in Part II. The whole album has these strange, almost juvenile vocal and compositional choices. I don't know what they were thinking with some of these tracks.
The band's nadir for me. Fortunately, they REALLY bounced back with the Mangini era. DoT and View have some of their best work ever IMO.
SC is the band's "fuck it" album. I also think it has more variety than any other album save for 8V. Not every song is a hit. But the band, to me, has had misses on pretty much every album.
I think POW is an awful, awful song.
But if they felt that was the song they needed to make, then I'm glad they made it, whether I like it or not.
But I hate it.
See, this is how fans should be. “I hate your song, but I'm happy for you!” :lol
This is kind of how I feel about Repentance. I totally appreciate the song. I find it incredibly experimental.
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Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.
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Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.
I would go to that show, as long as they skipped Repentance.. :biggrin:
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Imagine if they played the entire album on tour in 2022. I mean, it would be the 15 years anniversary.
There is a lot of material from the post-SfaM period that hasn't been played live in 10 or 15 years, so even if they were to stop neglecting that time period, they're not going to use 80 minutes of their set for one of their least popular albums. It's 13th out of 15 on ProgArchives, 11th on Rate Your Music, and the last poll I saw around here had it in the second-to-last spot. In all cases it was the lowest-rated one from the "classic" lineup (i.e. with LaBrie and Portnoy).
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Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.
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Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.
I would think Octavarium would be most likely. I high point in their career and Score standing alone as a live release.
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Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.
I kind of doubt it.
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Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.
I think closest to that would be hearing Six Degrees.
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Not to go too far off the rails here, but does anyone really and truly see them ever revisiting an entire album other than I&W and SFAM? Those were sure bets to sell tickets because they’re probably the only two albums that are universally loved. Obviously there are outliers, but mostly everyone loves those two. I just don’t see another album that is worth risking ticket sales over. Not everyone is as hardcore as us to go see them play all of SDOIT or FII or whatever.
I kind of doubt it.
This. DT has only three classics and has played them all in their entirety.
I&W
SFAM
TA
OK, I'm kidding about the last one. No hysterical reaction is needed.
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Systematic Chaos holds a special place in my heart because it was the first Dream Theater album that was released after I became a fan. I think it has some great songs but as an overall album is one of their weakest. On your typical tier list (S, A, B, C, D, F) I'd probably slot it under "C" in terms of Dream Theater albums.
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Nostalgia and what was going on in my life at the time of an albums release, always plays a large role in how I feel about said album.
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I feel that towards Train Of Thought. It was not my first album of theirs. That was Octavarium. But the Budokan dvd was the first time I ever heard DT music and most of the tracks were on that live album. So TOT, even though it is not their best, will always be special to me.
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ITPOE is one of the best songs they've ever written, so to that extent I am grateful for SC. However, I don't go to that album for much else.
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ITPOE is one of the best songs they've ever written, so to that extent I am grateful for SC. However, I don't go to that album for much else.
Such an underrated gem. Maybe if they released it as one track only (it is one song after all) people would appreciate it more.
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ITPOE is one of the best songs they've ever written, so to that extent I am grateful for SC. However, I don't go to that album for much else.
Such an underrated gem. Maybe if they released it as one track only (it is one song after all) people would appreciate it more.
The live version is great. I love the part where it's just MP for a couple of bars in the middle.
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ITPOE and TMOLS are amazing. POW is awesome and way underrated.
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I've been learning a few guitar parts from this album and it really gives me a whole new respect for it. It makes me realize the complexity even more and all the hard work they put into creating this beast! :omg:
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I've been learning a few guitar parts from this album and it really gives me a whole new respect for it. It makes me realize the complexity even more and all the hard work they put into creating this beast! :omg:
Yeah, JP is definitely one of the highlights of the album for sure :metal :metal :metal
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Systematic Chaos holds a special place in my heart because it was the first Dream Theater album that was released after I became a fan.
Not as seasoned as I had previously believed.
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Systematic Chaos holds a special place in my heart because it was the first Dream Theater album that was released after I became a fan. I think it has some great songs but as an overall album is one of their weakest. On your typical tier list (S, A, B, C, D, F) I'd probably slot it under "C" in terms of Dream Theater albums.
I know the feeling. It was the same for me. I became a fan hearing Budokan and TOT, then seeing Octavarium at Future Shop and hearing that. I still remember hearing Constant Motion and thinking it was one of the most unique songs I had ever heard. And I can admit there are much better DT album, this one just seems special to me. Lots of fun.
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Systematic Chaos holds a special place in my heart because it was the first Dream Theater album that was released after I became a fan. I think it has some great songs but as an overall album is one of their weakest. On your typical tier list (S, A, B, C, D, F) I'd probably slot it under "C" in terms of Dream Theater albums.
I know the feeling. It was the same for me. I became a fan hearing Budokan and TOT, then seeing Octavarium at Future Shop and hearing that. I still remember hearing Constant Motion and thinking it was one of the most unique songs I had ever heard. And I can admit there are much better DT album, this one just seems special to me. Lots of fun.
I first heard Constant Motion on the radio of all places, before SC was released, and my initial thought was "ugh why are they ripping off Metallica?"
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This record passed the test of time. Not perfect but with great moments. My current playlist:
1- The Ministry of Lost Souls
2- In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2
3- Constant Motion
4- In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
5- Forsaken
6- Prophets of War
7- The Dark Eternal Night
8- Repentance
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This was the beginning of the end of my album-by-album following of DT. What follows is my personal opinion, maybe not so logically consistent or well supported by examples.
Lyrics feel more like story outlines than actual stories. What I mean is that they feel too literal, and not set to prose or poetry for use with the music. When metaphor is used, it seems very forced and gratuitous (Out of an ivory mist/ I felt a stinging kiss/ And saw a crimson stain on her lips). I remember thinking "crimson would be used to describe something that's like blood, not actual blood." Compare to "Liquid shadows crawl/ Silver teardrops fall/ The bride subsides to her survival". I have no idea what that means, but it sounds beautiful. Or, "As far as I could tell, there's nothing more I need/ But still I ask myself, could this be everything?" Much more direct than metaphorical, but still poetic. Maybe it's all the same, and I'm just displaying a nostalgia bias for their older stuff, but I was eagerly anticipating and enjoying all their new output from SFAM to 8VM. Something just happened to me with this and their subsequent albums.
I feel similarly about the music and production/sound, but I'm a bit trapped in my head about that, and can't really explain what I'm thinking.
I've spot checked their post Octavarium albums here and there over the years as they were released, but this week I'm making a deliberate effort to listen to them front to back. I'm up to A Dramatic Turn of Events, and so far nothing has really made me want to go back and listen again. I'm eager to listen to The Astonishing, however.
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Maybe it's all the same, and I'm just displaying a nostalgia bias for their older stuff, but I was eagerly anticipating and enjoying all their new output from SFAM to 8VM. Something just happened to me with this and their subsequent albums.
I feel similarly about the music and production/sound, but I'm a bit trapped in my head about that, and can't really explain what I'm thinking.
Too bad for you the new albums doesn't come near to their pre-Systematic Chaos releases. I think I follow what you're saying, especially when a man grew up with the 'classics'. When I found out about Dream Theater, I had suddenly sixteen studio albums at the same time to dig into. And although I listen basicly to nothing other then Dream Theater, there's still so much left to discover.
I'm eager to listen to The Astonishing, however.
I really hope you enjoy the storyline. When you do, it's a masterpiece. I'm reading the novell (again) and still the whole spectrum grabs a hold on me.
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I'm eager to listen to The Astonishing, however.
I really hope you enjoy the storyline. When you do, it's a masterpiece. I'm reading the novell (again) and still the whole spectrum grabs a hold on me.
I see a book by Peter Orullian promoted on their website, but it still looks like its in pre-order after ~5 years. What happened? Is this what you are re-reading? Maybe I'll read the lyrics while I listen.
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I'm eager to listen to The Astonishing, however.
I really hope you enjoy the storyline. When you do, it's a masterpiece. I'm reading the novell (again) and still the whole spectrum grabs a hold on me.
I see a book by Peter Orullian promoted on their website, but it still looks like its in pre-order after ~5 years. What happened? Is this what you are re-reading? Maybe I'll read the lyrics while I listen.
I got my signed copy ages ago. Not sure why anyone would still have it on preorder.
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It's almost as if I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album.
In fact, that's the feel I get from almost this whole album. Like I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album...only they didn't do that level of hokey on purpose for a joke, so it's not really funny. (though parts of PoW are so horrible they make me LOL)
:-X. Yes, but ouch.
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It's almost as if I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album.
In fact, that's the feel I get from almost this whole album. Like I'm listening to a Spinal Tap album...only they didn't do that level of hokey on purpose for a joke, so it's not really funny. (though parts of PoW are so horrible they make me LOL)
:-X. Yes, but ouch.
Wow! A few more weeks and you would’ve caught me on the 7th anniversary of that comment! :lol
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:-X. Yes, but ouch.
Wow! A few more weeks and you would’ve caught me on the 7th anniversary of that comment! :lol
lol. I'm making my way through this thread and chortled a bit when I read that post.
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I see a book by Peter Orullian promoted on their website, but it still looks like its in pre-order after ~5 years. What happened? Is this what you are re-reading? Maybe I'll read the lyrics while I listen.
I got both the paperback and hardcover version and they're easily to get. Often for sale.
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I think the album has one very strong tune: ITPOE Pt. 1. I think this is a DT classic, though I do not love the lyrics.
However, the rest of the album is mixed at best. SC has a lot of filler. Why is Repentance 10+ minutes for example? That should be no longer than 2-3. Other tracks have different issues for me. The lyrics were overall very weak and there just were not enough high points. I won't beat the dead horse on the Dark Eternal Night.
Where does the album rank? Well, to me, DT's career had an extended low point and SC is probably at the very bottom, sandwiched in between Octavarium and Black Clouds. The band floundered in musical obscurity in this period, showcasing different contemporary influences in some songs but ultimately writing little compelling music in their signature style ( I am not saying there was none). I consider those 2 adjacent albums very weak though slightly better than SC. But again, SC does have a big hit. It's an album that deserves some modest credit.
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I think the album has one very strong tune: ITPOE Pt. 1. I think this is a DT classic, though I do not love the lyrics.
However, the rest of the album is mixed at best. SC has a lot of filler. Why is Repentance 10+ minutes for example? That should be no longer than 2-3. Other tracks have different issues for me. The lyrics were overall very weak and there just were not enough high points. I won't beat the dead horse on the Dark Eternal Night.
Where does the album rank? Well, to me, DT's career had an extended low point and SC is probably at the very bottom, sandwiched in between Octavarium and Black Clouds. The band floundered in musical obscurity in this period, showcasing different contemporary influences in some songs but ultimately writing little compelling music in their signature style ( I am not saying there was none). I consider those 2 adjacent albums very weak though slightly better than SC. But again, SC does have a big hit. It's an album that deserves some modest credit.
Octavarium is one of my top three, or top five (since there are so many) favorite DT records.
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I think the album has one very strong tune: ITPOE Pt. 1. I think this is a DT classic, though I do not love the lyrics.
However, the rest of the album is mixed at best. SC has a lot of filler. Why is Repentance 10+ minutes for example? That should be no longer than 2-3. Other tracks have different issues for me. The lyrics were overall very weak and there just were not enough high points. I won't beat the dead horse on the Dark Eternal Night.
Where does the album rank? Well, to me, DT's career had an extended low point and SC is probably at the very bottom, sandwiched in between Octavarium and Black Clouds. The band floundered in musical obscurity in this period, showcasing different contemporary influences in some songs but ultimately writing little compelling music in their signature style ( I am not saying there was none). I consider those 2 adjacent albums very weak though slightly better than SC. But again, SC does have a big hit. It's an album that deserves some modest credit.
Octavarium is one of my top three, or top five (since there are so many) favorite DT records.
Octavarium is my #1 all time and I’m a fan since 92
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Lot's of people don't get the love for it. I think the title track is good, but too bloated and a bit overrated. Aside from that, Panic Attack and Root have cool riffage. It's a better album than Systematic Chaos, IMO, I just think it marks a steep drop off from the 3 albums that preceded it. SC is the bottom of the drop but the thing is none of those albums is devoid of good songs.
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SC is at the bottom of the DT pile with BCASL and TOT for me. The only great song from those three albums is The Count of Tuscany, afaic, (and that's goofy AF too) but I did used to enjoy ITPOE a fair bit. I may have to revisit that track.