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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 09:13:07 AM

Title: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 09:13:07 AM
Link here (https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/religious-communities-debate-court-s-circumcision-ruling-a-841276.html)

Here's the part that's actually interesting:

Quote
The Cologne case involved a four-year-old boy who had been taken on Nov. 4, 2010 to a clinic in the same city, where he was circumcised at the express wish of his Muslim parents. Two days later, the parents brought their son to the emergency room at Cologne's university hospital because he suffered from profuse bleeding. The public prosecutor then filed charges against the doctor.

In its first ruling in the case, the lower Cologne district court ruled that the medical treatment given had been irreproachable and the judges acquitted the doctor. The court ruled that the surgery had in fact represented bodily injury, but that it had been justified by the "child's well-being" and noted that the parents had given their approval for the procedure. The court stated that circumcision serves as a "traditional-ritual course of action for documenting belonging culturally and religiously to the Muslim community." Circumcision, the court argued, would prevent the threat of stigmatization for the child among his peers. The court also stressed its opinion that there are medical advantages to circumcision. The public prosecutor responded by appealing the ruling, pushing the case up to the regional court.

The court ultimately rejected the appeal, ruling that the doctor had been innocent because of the legal uncertainty surrounding circumcision.

The judges nevertheless decided to issue some clarity for the future on that regard, ruling that the surgery, or bodily injury, had not been justified by the permission given by the parents and that it did not represent the well-being of the child. The court ruled that the child's right to physical integrity is more important than the parent's basic rights. The ruling stated that a mother's or father's right to freedom of religion as well as their right to determining how they raise their child would not be limited if they were forced to wait and allow their child to decide for himself if he wanted to be circumcised. The ruling states a child's right to self-determination should come first.

I'm not sure if I'd have my child circumcised.  It seems like a semi-complicated decision.

Why would the government just say no?  If the argument was medical, I'd understand.  But I'm not sure what aspect of "self-determination" is really at stake here.  For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 03, 2012, 09:19:27 AM
I saw this on Facebook a few days ago. I learned some interesting statistics, including that only 3% of men are circumcised - 2/3 of that being Americans.

It's a difficult question. I initially assumed I'd always have my son circumcised, but it seems like the potential harm outweighs the minimal benefit.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 03, 2012, 09:30:57 AM
I'm not sure what aspect of "self-determination" is really at stake here. 

Well, you are essentially robbing someone of a part of their body. It's just a weird issue because besides the "men's rights" wackos pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not. Social norms play a much larger role in it than any perceived loss of choice.

I'm not really sure a ban was necessary, but it's not something that really bothers me anyways. I'm circumcised and I'm perfectly fine with that, but if I were to have kids I wouldn't support getting them circumcised. I don't see the point beyond tradition.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
Post by: Implode on July 03, 2012, 09:46:55 AM
pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not. Social norms play a much larger role in it than any perceived loss of choice.

That's an interesting truth. And it's probably why it'll be perpetuated here in the US.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 09:46:56 AM
Yeah, that was pretty controversial, and mind you, it's only the city of Cologne.
That said, I actually somewhat agree that forcing the parents to postpone the circumcision until the child can make a willing decision about it, is a far smaller penalty than the damage of body-modding the child by default.

For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

Well, Germany has such a low rate of circumcision that there isn't just the societal collective shrug of "that's how we've always done it". And when you actually look at it, mutilating your infant is a *highly* questionable practice. I guess humanity can consider itself lucky that there isn't a religion that beats up their infants on religious grounds.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: GuineaPig on July 03, 2012, 10:07:05 AM
I imagine people would start kicking up shit if tatooing your baby became a fad.  I don't know why Americans are OK with genital mutilation of infants.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: kirksnosehair on July 03, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
Relevant  (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/circumcision-public-health-concern/story?id=12555810#.T_Muh7We5lc)


I am circumcised, but my son is not (he's 25)


Personally, I don't have an opinion, other than this:  If you have it done as an infant you will not remember it.  If you have it done when you're old enough to make your own decision about it, you're definitely going to remember it.  You may even be mentally/physically/emotionally traumatized by it.  Just sayin'
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Cool Chris on July 03, 2012, 11:53:11 AM
I am circumcised and I never once considered my genitals 'mutilated.'
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
Well, you grew up in a culture where it is considered a norm, so not surprisingly you never seriously questioned it.
Is female circumcision not mutilation for you either?

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Cool Chris on July 03, 2012, 12:25:42 PM
True - sort of. The 'norm' I was familiar with was ony my own, which, I guess to a little boy, is the norm unless or until he finds out differently. And I wouldn't say I never questioned it. I was just implying I never thought of it as 'mutilation.'

And with regards to female circumcision, I don't really know enough about it. My daughter was born last year, and it isn't like my wife and I ever discussed the topic.

Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 03, 2012, 12:30:00 PM
I thought female circumcision actually had lasting damages on the nerves in the area though. Isn't it way more damaging than male circumcision?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 03, 2012, 01:18:34 PM
Quote
The WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood—the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[4] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.

Yeah, I don't think it's really fair to compare the two.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Super Dude on July 03, 2012, 01:33:02 PM
Yay, let's open this can of worms yet again.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
Female circumcision, I'm assuming right now, can be done as safely and impact-less as male circumcision if done by a trained professional. The point still stands; would it not be mutilation either then?
Either way, I think there's a chock full of societal waving-through going on regarding circumcision.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: adace on July 03, 2012, 01:43:40 PM
I am circumcised and I never once considered my genitals 'mutilated.'
This.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 01:47:17 PM
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 03, 2012, 02:22:22 PM
Female circumcision, I'm assuming right now, can be done as safely and impact-less as male circumcision if done by a trained professional. The point still stands; would it not be mutilation either then?

Well, no. Removing the clitoris is considerably different anatomically speaking than removing foreskin is, regardless of how safe or sterile the procedure is.

That said, I agree with you in principle. Circumcision is something that takes a piece of someone's body for no real reason other than social norms. I mean, it's not something I'm particularly bothered by in any way, but I don't support it and really see no reason for it to continue.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 02:36:28 PM
Male and Female circumcision aren't the same discussion.  At all.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 02:41:05 PM
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 03, 2012, 02:46:03 PM
I think that's being a bit too general. People used to have their tonsils unnecessarily removed all the time.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Super Dude on July 03, 2012, 03:04:16 PM
And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El Barto on July 03, 2012, 03:08:45 PM
A current article (https://American Academy of Pediatrics) published by the AMA.  In a nutshell, American circumcisions are at an all time low (closing on 50/50).  A few factors are a vociferous advocacy group, a neutral stance from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and a reluctance for state run medicaid programs to pick up the tab.  The flip side is that they're starting to think that their might be some health benefits to getting snipped.  As the numbers decrease, we'll get better data from a larger sample.   

And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
Yeah, but you're Jewish.  You have an excuse.  Americans lost their religious identity long ago, and even then it wasn't really strongly affixed to circumcision. 
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 03, 2012, 03:55:31 PM
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised. It's obviously true that he could decide to get one at a time when he's levelheaded enough to make important life decisions but I'd imagine it'd be very stressing to have to choose between potential sexual ostracism or the physical pain and discomfort one goes through during the recovery process.

This line of thought also occurred to me:

1) Smegma smells

2) Cologne outlaws circumcision thereby increasing the amount of smegma in town

3) Sell more cologne to cover the smell

4) ?

5) Profit
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: TL on July 03, 2012, 04:49:41 PM
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?
That's a bizarre notion to me. Then, it's far from the norm here. In Canada, it's estimated that fewer than 30% of guys are circumcised, and in my province, a quick search shows that it's about 6.8% (the lowest in the country). Some reports put the national number at 'less than 17%'.

If you look at percentage of boys who have been circumcised in the past ten years, it drops below 1% in Nova Scotia, and is statistically nil in Newfoundland.

Edit: Looked it up, and it looks like it is certainly much more common in the US than here in Canada. It's just odd to me that there are people who consider it odd for a guy to not have part of his penis cut off.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 03, 2012, 05:03:56 PM
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?
That's a bizarre notion to me. Then, it's far from the norm here. In Canada, it's estimated that fewer than 30% of guys are circumcised, and in my province, a quick search shows that it's about 6.8% (the lowest in the country). Some reports put the national number at 'less than 17%'.

If you look at percentage of boys who have been circumcised in the past ten years, it drops below 1% in Nova Scotia, and is statistically nil in Newfoundland.

Possibility? Definitely yes. Probability? Not totally sure. People sometimes joke about it in a non-malicious way from time to time to an extent that I've definitely been led to believe that it has a reputation of being a significant departure from the norm (in American society that is.) I've heard more than a few girls mention their less-than-comfortable attitude toward them as well. Not that these gals were mortally grossed out but moreso that they were so unaccustomed to it that they talked about it in a somewhat uneasy manner.

I don't personally give a rat's ass one way or another and have no issues with anteater cocks. My strong personal preference for being cut is the easier cleanup aspect of it. I ain't implying that it's that hard to clean inside foreskin but it surely can't be easier than polishing a firepole.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 05:07:43 PM
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Like Cool Chris and Adace said, I don't feel very mutilated.  I don't think women/girls who are circumcised feel quite the same way.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: GuineaPig on July 03, 2012, 05:16:25 PM
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eisMSWZRdhA)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El Barto on July 03, 2012, 05:21:09 PM
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eisMSWZRdhA)
A big, brazen FUCK AUTHORITY with flames coming of of it?  Hell yeah!  A Jesus fish?  Pass.  That's the difference.  One makes a statement, the other does not.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 05:24:46 PM
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eisMSWZRdhA)

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: GuineaPig on July 03, 2012, 06:46:18 PM
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eisMSWZRdhA)

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.

I suppose it's not directly comparable.

What about a nosejob?  You wouldn't ever remember or experience another nose, and it is also just a cosmetic surgery done without your consent.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 03, 2012, 06:51:46 PM
Was it a good nose job?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on July 03, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
I thought female circumcision actually had lasting damages on the nerves in the area though. Isn't it way more damaging than male circumcision?

Depends on the type but male circumcision comes with damages of its own. The glans forms a callous over it due to constant rubbing against clothing, leading to a loss of sensitivity. Nerve endings are severed, which explains why circumcised men are 4.5 times more likely to suffer from erectile dysfunction. (https://news.menshealth.com/is-your-circumcision-making-you-soft/2011/11/02/) The circumcision scar can become sore or inflamed during sex.
Quote
"Histology of the male circumcision scar shows amputation neuromas, Schwann cell proliferation and the bulbous collection of variably sized neurites. Amputation neuromas do not mediate normal sensation and are notorious for generating pain."
- British Journal Of Urology
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 03, 2012, 07:40:28 PM
I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin. 

For what it's worth, I don't miss your foreskin either. 

Wait...  ???
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Super Dude on July 03, 2012, 07:44:30 PM
A current article (https://American Academy of Pediatrics) published by the AMA.  In a nutshell, American circumcisions are at an all time low (closing on 50/50).  A few factors are a vociferous advocacy group, a neutral stance from the American Academy of Pediatrics, and a reluctance for state run medicaid programs to pick up the tab.  The flip side is that they're starting to think that their might be some health benefits to getting snipped.  As the numbers decrease, we'll get better data from a larger sample.   

And wisdom teeth. I've been circumcised, my brothers were and my father too, and if I have sons I'm sure they will be too.
Yeah, but you're Jewish.  You have an excuse.  Americans lost their religious identity long ago, and even then it wasn't really strongly affixed to circumcision.

It's all good and well until someone else tries to stop us from doing so (i.e. that California ban, IIRC).
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 03, 2012, 07:57:38 PM
If I ever have a son, I think I'd probably get him circumcised simply for the fact that I wouldn't want him to potentially have to deal with any hurt feelings or embarrassment stemming from adverse reactions from sexual partners when they were to see that he was uncircumcised.
Is... is that actually a possibility where you live? A normal, unmodified penis is considered that odd there?

I live in the US, and from what I've gathered, yes it is a distinct possibility. That's the biggest reason why circumcision is perpetuated. It's not religion; it's because most Americans see an uncircumcised penis as weird/gross.

Isolated culture is funny like that.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 03, 2012, 08:08:37 PM
To the guys who are circumcised: what would you think if your parents had given you a tattoo as a baby? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eisMSWZRdhA)

Not comparable.

I don't know what this means, but I don't miss my foreskin.  I have attachment to it.  I feel no injustice at it being taken away.

If I was given a tattoo as a kid and grew up not liking it, there would be a problem.

I suppose it's not directly comparable.

What about a nosejob?  You wouldn't ever remember or experience another nose, and it is also just a cosmetic surgery done without your consent.

Circumcisions make hygienic maintenance easier though since smegma can't build up and cleaning your dingus in the shower is also much easier and more thorough.

A rhinoplasty is sheerly aesthetic. You aren't making an apples to apples comparison.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 08:38:01 PM
The whole cleanliness argument for circumcision only works if you don't wash for a week. It's the equivalent of saying armpits can be problematic because they breed bacteria. Believe it or not, the remaining uncircumcised world doesn't run around with a ring of smegma under their dick. And neither did the millennia of human ancestors.
You wash it, and then it's clean.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 03, 2012, 08:50:48 PM
Can I wash your dick just to be sure? :caffeine:
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Omega on July 03, 2012, 08:58:46 PM
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 03, 2012, 09:21:30 PM
Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.

No, there's not much of a reason to strictly oppose circumcision. The problem, however, is that there's also very little reason to support circumcision besides religion, which I think is what most anti-circumcision people are opposed to. We shouldn't be engaged in this practice at all if A) it offers few to no health advantages and B) complications, while rare, are this inherently severe. And we're realizing that "God told me to", secularist agenda aside, isn't actually that great a defense for the practice.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 03, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
Oh, and for the people who are confused about female circumcision: no, that's not something you want to consider for your daughter. :lol

While we could take or leave the foreskin, the clitoris has a pretty ridiculous amount of nerve endings. Taking it off serves no purpose other than to oppress women.
Title: No, I haven't been eating out African tribal women.
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 03, 2012, 09:45:49 PM
It also makes cunnilingus take a HELL of a lot longer :(
Title: Re: No, I haven't been eating out African tribal women.
Post by: theseoafs on July 03, 2012, 09:49:58 PM
See, it's bad for everybody, not just the woman. :lol
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Shine on July 03, 2012, 09:56:22 PM
This coming from a borderline anarchocapitalist -

I'm sort of fine with this, assuming the headline is exactly what actually happened. Young children are generally much less capable of making decisions on their own, and really can't give consent in a way that we define it among adults. I don't think it should be banned for kids over 10 years old, but they should also have to consent to the surgery. Everyone under 10, if they ban it for them, I won't fight it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El Barto on July 03, 2012, 10:27:37 PM
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.
Honestly, I think you're the only one in here who has actually associated it with a religious agenda (aside from SD's Jewishness).  We all think it's merely an aesthetic thing nowadays.  I know that in my opinion, and I suspect in plenty of others, if somebody actually does have a real religious concern for having his kid cut, then they can knock themselves out.  Snip snip.  Mazel tov.  Today you are slightly less of a man. 
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 03, 2012, 10:38:01 PM
Yeah, I didn't reply to Omega'a post because it was just so off the mark.
BTW, I'm actually not particularly fond of the ruling myself. I think the cultural damage it does far outweighs the (as I agree) pretty minimal damage to the small number of circumcised German kids anyway. My stance in this thread is rather that religiously motivated irreparable body damage is something that shouldn't be taken to lightly either. It's just that in this case the scale tips the other way.

The whole "secularist agenda" is Omega brain fart.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 03, 2012, 10:48:17 PM
As a general rule, if you think a group that doesn't have meetings (atheists, homosexuals) has an agenda, you are wrong.

EDIT: https://www.conservapedia.com/Gay_agenda
https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist_agenda
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 04, 2012, 12:04:23 AM
So, how long will everybody continue to ignore the elephant in the room, that the removal of body parts is a form of mutilation, or body-modding or whatever you want to call it, no matter whether it is religiously motivated or not?

rumborak

Say it was the practice of religion x to remove the appendix of every child upon birth. Would that still be mutilation? Or what about piercing the ears of baby girls? Doesn't that occur long before the girl can come into an age whence she could "decide for herself" whether she wants her ears pierced? Wouldn't such an action be "mutilation" by your definition?

Really, I don't see much sense in such a provision being enforced, except perhaps just to, you know, "stick it to those damn religious people." I would understand why one might be impelled to intervene with litigious action in a situation in which religion x demands that half of the liver of the first-born male be taken and offered up to deity x, but why the overreaction towards the removal of some extra skin on the dong bone? Again, I can't see much of a reason for the overreaction except for advancing a secularist agenda.

Great point.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 12:15:57 AM
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 12:35:36 AM
If you gentiles don't want to snip off your kids shwingshwang then don't do it. You think it's disgusting or harmful or wrong? THEN DON'T DO IT. But our culture has survived for thousands of years and doing it hasn't harmed us in the slightest (actually it was the people who didn't approve of the things we did that harmed us quite a bit) and it's a major part of our cultural identity. Banning it is harmful to an entire religion and is really not too different than telling any other group of people that they can't do something that the majority group doesn't personally approve of.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 04, 2012, 12:36:12 AM
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.

Only 3/8 of that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 04, 2012, 12:44:42 AM
Circumcision is basically what has made the Jewish race successful as it makes it more difficult for boys to discover masturbation and forces them to stay more focused working in the fields, studying or contributing in the Jewish communities. With natural genetilia the playing field is more even racially. Good move, fascist or not.

...so that's why american boys are so successful in their studies, right?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Zook on July 04, 2012, 01:21:51 AM
Oh god, not the smegma argument. Such an ignorant one.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 03:13:44 AM
Banning it is harmful to an entire religion

I'm sure that banning female circumcision is harmful to some religions or traditions as well but that doesn't mean I should give a shit.

...so that's why american boys are so successful in their studies, right?

Correlation der not equals causation etc.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: snapple on July 04, 2012, 08:32:40 AM






Personally, I don't have an opinion, other than this:  If you have it done as an infant you will not remember it.  If you have it done when you're old enough to make your own decision about it, you're definitely going to remember it.  You may even be mentally/physically/emotionally traumatized by it.  Just sayin'

this and my kids will get circumcised
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 09:18:19 AM
If you gentiles don't want to snip off your kids shwingshwang then don't do it. You think it's disgusting or harmful or wrong? THEN DON'T DO IT. But our culture has survived for thousands of years and doing it hasn't harmed us in the slightest (actually it was the people who didn't approve of the things we did that harmed us quite a bit) and it's a major part of our cultural identity. Banning it is harmful to an entire religion and is really not too different than telling any other group of people that they can't do something that the majority group doesn't personally approve of.

That's the cultural damage I was talking about. It's safe to do, it's a cultural heritage for you guys, and Germans banning a practice that is predominantly exercised by Jews and Muslims, well, not so good.
That said, I also *do* understand the argument of infant integrity. I just don't think it has enough weight.

EDIT: BTW, if the decision in the US to circumcise your kids is mostly based on peer pressure (i.e. "don't want to have my kid stick out"), this article (https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/health/research/17circ.html?_r=1&ref=health) says in 2009 only 32% of kids were circumcised, mostly because insurances stopped covering it because of its nonexistent medical benefit.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 10:04:17 AM
lol
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 10:51:10 AM
Banning it is harmful to an entire religion

I'm sure that banning female circumcision is harmful to some religions or traditions as well but that doesn't mean I should give a shit.



Name one. Name one culture that demands female circumcision to be a part of it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 10:58:32 AM
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 11:01:16 AM
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

rumborak


A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese? Nah, I doubt that. People doing it, and a culture having it as part of their cultural identity for thousands of years is a very different thing.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: GuineaPig on July 04, 2012, 11:06:06 AM
Sudan apparently has a >90% prevalence of one or another form of female circumcision. If you asked them I would guess they see it as a cultural heritage.

rumborak


A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese? Nah, I doubt that. People doing it, and a culture having it as part of their cultural identity for thousands of years is a very different thing.

wut

That's like saying because you don't need to be circumcised to be Israeli, that circumcision isn't a part of Jewish culture.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 11:07:20 AM
No it's not? He pointed out that people in Sudan happen to do a lot of female circumcisions, and implied that it was equally necessary to their culture as it is in the Jewish culture. I pointed out that it was not.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 04, 2012, 11:18:39 AM
No it's not? He pointed out that people in Sudan happen to do a lot of female circumcisions, and implied that it was equally necessary to their culture as it is in the Jewish culture. I pointed out that it was not.

From Wikipedia (FGM standing for "female genital mutilation") :
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Fgm_map.svg/627px-Fgm_map.svg.png)

Obviously there are quite a few areas all around Africa where 95-100% of girls have been circumcised, and I'm sure it would be difficult for uncircumcised girls in these areas to be considered true members of their target culture (given that they can still enjoy sex, which I'm sure these cultures' elders don't appreciate). Obviously the only reason FGM still happens is tradition, and many cultures consider circumcision of both males and females equally important.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 11:20:50 AM
Once again, not my point. Doing it a lot, and it being a actual necessity for ones culture or religion are VERY different things.

Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Omega on July 04, 2012, 11:21:11 AM
Honestly, I think you're the only one in here who has actually associated it with a religious agenda (aside from SD's Jewishness).  We all think it's merely an aesthetic thing nowadays.  I know that in my opinion, and I suspect in plenty of others, if somebody actually does have a real religious concern for having his kid cut, then they can knock themselves out.  Snip snip.  Mazel tov.  Today you are slightly less of a man.

Yea, I don't doubt that many people nowadays choose to have their children circumcised by social convention, tradition, preference, etc rather than religious motivation. But, again, why choose to ban all male circumcision? I don't see the practice of circumcision any more pernicious or any less traditional than the piercing of the ears of infant girls. I assume that the piercing of the ears could, also, in an extremely unfortunate case perhaps lead to infection or some other bodily ailment. I can imagine that would be extremely rare, but the possibility would still exist, wouldn't it? So why allow the piercing of ears and not allow circumcision? It seems to me that the entire stance is not being consistent with its premises. Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself." Such inconsistency with the adopted premises, coupled with a strange obsession with what occurs to foreskins leads me to see the move as one motivated to deal a blow to a tradition that was founded in religion, however aptly disguised in a "caring" or "anti-mutilation" it may be, and however alienated or divorced from that religion it may be now.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Adami, I find it surprising how easily you dismiss another culture's practices as negligible. If the prevalence is near 100%, one has to assume it is considered to be an integral part of the culture. And I'm sure they can produce old documents stating the requirement of it, just like Jews have the Torah that says so.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 11:23:55 AM
Adami, I find it surprising how easily you dismiss another culture's practices as negligible. If the prevalence is near 100%, one has to assume it is considered to be an integral part of the culture. And I'm sure they can produce old documents stating the requirement of it, just like Jews have the Torah that says so.

rumborak

Then feel free to provide them.



Also, I don't think they should be banned from doing female circumcision either mind you. If the culture wishes to do it, let them. If the women want to revolt and change the rules, let them. Chances are they will continue to do it in their countries and probably not move to America or other parts of Europe, do it and then move back, facing ostracism .
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 04, 2012, 11:27:06 AM
But, again, why choose to ban all male circumcision? I don't see the practice of circumcision any more pernicious or any less traditional than the piercing of the ears of infant girls.

Can you have your infant girl's ear pierced in America? I thought you had to be a certain age to give consent to that.

By the way, circumcision is different than having your ear pierced in that an ear piercing will heal itself after time. So if you decide once you reach a certain age that you don't want a hole in your ear, you can just leave out the earring for a while and it will eventually return to normal, but a foreskin will not grow back no matter how much you will it. That's a pretty essential difference.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 11:28:19 AM
A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese?

Calm your titties. Nobody is claiming that there is a culture that values genital mutilation more than Jews.

But I'm interested, is basically impossible to be considered Jewish if you aren't circumcised? I can understand the importance as the Bible makes it pretty fundamental.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Omega on July 04, 2012, 11:29:30 AM
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

rumborak

That's entire the point. It's a reductio ad absurdum.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 11:30:21 AM
Which works *marvelously* when discussing culture  :\
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 04, 2012, 11:32:34 AM
Then feel free to provide them.

Most of these cultures are Islamic, actually. I don't believe there is an Islamic text that mandates female genital mutilation (but I could be wrong). If I'm not mistaken, they're actually basing their concept of female circumcision off the Jewish concept of male circumcision; "if it's so important for males to be circumcised, we should make sure to cut off a piece of our women's junk too!!!"

Also, I don't think they should be banned from doing female circumcision either mind you. If the culture wishes to do it, let them. If the women want to revolt and change the rules, let them. Chances are they will continue to do it in their countries and probably not move to America or other parts of Europe, do it and then move back, facing ostracism .

They should be banned from doing female circumcision, though. While male circumcision is neither helpful nor harmful in the long run, female genital mutilation is crippling and awful.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 11:35:16 AM
(https://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22061037.jpg)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 04, 2012, 11:35:19 AM
Which once again brings it back to the main point here. Cricumcision is a question of cultural context. Germans viewing it as a barbaric mutilation of infants is equally understandable as Jews seeing it as not much more objectionable than wearing a yamulke. I don't agree with Cologne imposing their view on the population, but I can somewhat understand the rationale.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 04, 2012, 11:40:33 AM
A female needs to be circumcised to be considered Sudanese?

Calm your titties. Nobody is claiming that there is a culture that values genital mutilation more than Jews.

But I'm interested, is basically impossible to be considered Jewish if you aren't circumcised? I can understand the importance as the Bible makes it pretty fundamental.

Don't condescend, if you want to have a conversation, then do so, but I won't respond to this. Rephrase it with tact, and I shall.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 04, 2012, 11:43:27 AM
Hell, the premises the ordinance was supposedly established upon could even lead one to see as the clipping of nails, the cutting of hair, the removal of appendixes or even perhaps the removal of umbilical cord as "mutilation" too, or at least as actions that should be taken only when a child comes into an age in which "he can make the decision for himself."

This is such utter junk, it's unfathomable. Sorry dude, seriously. Cutting hair != circumcision.

rumborak

That's entire the point. It's a reductio ad absurdum.

I know you're ignoring me because I've gotten you into trouble before, but do read my reply to you above, which explains why ear-piercing and hair- and nail-cutting are fundamentally different from circumcision.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 04, 2012, 11:49:10 AM
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 04, 2012, 11:52:33 AM
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.

*hopes there's no such thing as an ingrown foreskin*
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: King Postwhore on July 04, 2012, 04:12:03 PM
Well, I've always thought there was done because medically, it cuts down on socially transmitted diseases.  Personally, I think government should stay out of it and it should be a personal choice for either side.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 04, 2012, 09:40:45 PM
Imagine if foreskin grew back like hair and nail. You'd have to chop it off every year.

*hopes there's no such thing as an ingrown foreskin*

Guys.

No.

Stop.
Title: It looked like an uninflated party balloon.
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 04, 2012, 11:32:22 PM
I suffered from an inverted urethra for a few months in my teen years.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 04, 2012, 11:41:10 PM
*sobs*
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: eric42434224 on July 05, 2012, 10:03:32 AM
Every girl/woman I have spoken to on the subject vastly prefers a cut pickle.  Obviously this may be due to my socio/economic, geographic, cultural area, etc......but that is certainly the way it is.  I see no other more valid reason than cut pickles being the preference of your potential pool of partners.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ohgar on July 05, 2012, 11:02:55 AM
I'm OK with banning circumcision as long as you ban baptism of young kids as well. After all, submerging an infant in water is careless, dangerous and potentially traumatizing.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 05, 2012, 11:35:09 AM
I'm pretty sure infant baptism doesn't involve submersion.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 05, 2012, 11:42:19 AM
It does not. They either pour or sprinkle water over the head because they know a baby wouldn't listen if you said "hey dude hold your breath for a second, you're going under". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 05, 2012, 12:17:25 PM
And submersion baptism is only performed on people old enough to concent to that on their own.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: eric42434224 on July 05, 2012, 12:31:11 PM
Infants are born with the bradycardic response, also known as the "dive reflex", which causes them to hold their breath when submerged.

Dunk away.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on July 08, 2012, 02:45:23 PM
People miss a fundamental point in this debate, which is that circumcision is basically irreversible. Foreskin restoration can bring back sensitivity to the glans, but it won't bring back the ridged band or other specialized nerve endings and cells in the foreskin. So to use a corny analogy, not circumcising your child is like ordering your meal without salt.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 08, 2012, 02:46:57 PM
People miss a fundamental point in this debate, which is that circumcision is basically irreversible. Foreskin restoration can bring back sensitivity to the glans, but it won't bring back the ridged band or other specialized nerve endings and cells in the foreskin. So to use a corny analogy, not circumcising your child is like ordering your meal without salt.


So are you in favor of banning it?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2012, 03:20:37 PM
I'm not following on that analogy, at all. It sounds like he's against circumcision, up until the last sentence which sounds like the opposite.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on July 08, 2012, 03:31:52 PM
So are you in favor of banning it?

No. Whenever you ban something, you just create a black market. It's better to educate people about the ill effects in the hopes fewer people will choose to have it done.

I'm not following on that analogy, at all. It sounds like he's against circumcision, up until the last sentence which sounds like the opposite.

It's actually straight from The Joy Of Sex.  ;D

Ordering something with salt is sort of irreversible because you can't pick out the individual grains. The idea is that you let boys choose later in life rather than forcing an irreversible procedure on them at birth.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: orcus116 on July 08, 2012, 04:51:12 PM
Salt probably isn't the best analogy to use because it's generally considered an enhancement to food.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 08, 2012, 04:56:19 PM
I don't know, I understood the analogy.  The idea is that you may be happy with your food should you ask the cook to salt it, but you can't really reverse the decision should that not be the case.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2012, 05:51:36 PM
I think it would be an interesting statistic to see how many circumcised men would rather not be. I just looked randomly and there were quite a few posts by people who did not like having had made the decision without their agreement.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: black_biff_stadler on July 08, 2012, 07:58:22 PM
I don't recall that. You sure?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2012, 08:45:32 PM
Not in this thread. I checked on stuff like Yahoo Answers etc. There were quite a few people saying they'd rather be "whole".

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 10, 2012, 09:17:29 PM
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 10, 2012, 09:22:18 PM
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 10, 2012, 09:30:40 PM
Adami, is your only support of circumcision that Judaism has been practicing it for a very long time?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 10, 2012, 09:32:08 PM
Adami, is your only support of circumcision that Judaism has been practicing it for a very long time?

My support of it is that it is part of my culture and has been since its inception, and not only that but it's an essential part, not just something we happen do. And we don't have a whole lot of jewish guys raising hell that they were circumcised. Which is why it should be allowed and optional. If people don't like that they're circumcised, then don't circumcise your children.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 10, 2012, 09:44:24 PM
And we don't have a whole lot of jewish guys raising hell that they were circumcised.

But there are some?

My support of it is that it is part of my culture and has been since its inception, and not only that but it's an essential part, not just something we happen do.

An honest question:  would you be opposed to requiring a minimum age of consent for circumcision?  Does the Jewish faith encourage infant circumcision rather than circumcision of 10- or 13-year olds?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 10, 2012, 09:55:46 PM
Yes, 7 days.


And I don't speak in absolutes, so I won't say there are none. You can't force western ideals and values on every society you deem fit.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 10, 2012, 10:00:47 PM
Yes, 7 days.

Just asking, because I didn't know.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: soundgarden on July 11, 2012, 11:43:19 AM
You can't force western ideals and values on every society you deem fit.

But, equally, a non-western group in a western nation has no right to think their own law supersedes the law of the land.  The "western philosophy" is very liberal; but because of its nature; cannot accept practices that impinge on its fundamentals of liberty.  It would be self-destructive.

A decision by the western world is not void of reason and not implusive; its conclusion is steeped in history of liberal philosophies.  Banning circumcision or deciding to ban Burkas are ok because they are counter-productive to our ever growing liberal society.  If the person doesn't agree then they should not be living in the west. 

Its hypocritical to cherish liberal philosophies when it benefits oneself, but denounce it when it doesn't.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 11, 2012, 02:23:43 PM
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
I didn't mind it for the longest time. Until I learned why it's unhealthy. Now I'm opposed. Just because a religion does it doesn't change the fact it's a screwed up thing to do. I am circumcised, and I don't really mind much I'll admit, but it serves it's purpose.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 11, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2012, 06:12:49 PM
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
I didn't mind it for the longest time. Until I learned why it's unhealthy. Now I'm opposed. Just because a religion does it doesn't change the fact it's a screwed up thing to do. I am circumcised, and I don't really mind much I'll admit, but it serves it's purpose.

Then don't get your son circumcised. I seriously don't understand why you guys can't just choose not to do it, and instead want to force everyone else to have to follow your ideas of what is right. It's really no different than banning porn or premarital sex or even unprotected sex. The only reason you guys don't care is because it doesn't apply to you. But it applies to a lot of people including myself (not to mention Superdude and whatever other Jews are here). Yet you seem perfectly cool telling any entire culture they're not allowed to do something because you personally don't like it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on July 11, 2012, 07:08:34 PM
My circumcised dick is just fine, thank you very much.

Calling it mutilation is such a huge fucking stretch it boggles my mind. and it pisses me off because it implies that my religion 'butchers' our young against their will.

Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 11, 2012, 07:27:04 PM
and it pisses me off because it implies that my religion 'butchers' our young against their will.

Regardless of your opinions on whether circumcision is "butchering", it is being done against the will of the children, and I think that's what's offending those who are against it.

It's really no different than banning porn or premarital sex or even unprotected sex.

Except it is!  I don't even know how you could compare sex between two consenting adults to sawing away at the genitals of infants. 

And keep in mind that all kinds of sex ARE, in fact, banned - for people who aren't old enough to consent to it.

EDIT:  By the way, Adami, do understand that I'm not attacking you or your people.  That is incredibly far from being my intention.  I'm only here to discuss this matter, and I do have some relatively strong -- and, in my opinion, quite well-argued -- opinions about the subject.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2012, 07:41:48 PM
I'm not arguing that anyone should like circumcision or that you guys should do it, I'm only arguing against preventing my people from doing it simply because you don't like it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: RuRoRul on July 11, 2012, 07:49:46 PM
Quote
Then don't get your son circumcised. I seriously don't understand why you guys can't just choose not to do it
The point is that no one chooses whether to be circumcised or not, if that circumcision occurs in infancy. If "it" is being circumcised as an infant, then no one can choose whether to do it or not. The parents are choosing for the child. So the usual argument of "Don't do it if you don't want to, but don't try to ban other people from doing it" that applies whenever people try to outlaw something harmless just to impose their views on others (e.g. porn, premarital sex etc.) doesn't quite suffice, since the real issue is the fact that the person involved has no choice in the matter, and that argument doesn't address that. The thing that people want to do involves permanently altering someone else's body without them having any say in it, which makes it a different beast to watching porn or homosexual sex or other things like that.

I have no real stake in this - circumcision is a complete non-issue as far as I'm concerned since I don't think it's prevalent here at all. I don't really know if anyone around here is circumcised since I don't see a whole lot of penises, but I've never heard it mentioned and I don't imagine that the idea of whether I should circumcise any son of mine would even enter my head. And everyone here seems happy enough with whichever one they ended up with, so we can hardly argue it's a problem. I just think that it's not quite as simple an issue as "If you don't want it, don't do it."
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 11, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
^This is exactly correct.  The issue, Adami, is not that a group of people is doing something I don't like and should therefore be stopped.  People do things I wouldn't necessarily do myself all the time, like eating guacamole and having sex with men.  If you enjoy guacamole and man-sex, good for you!  You enjoy two more things than I do.

The issue is that parents are making permanent decisions about their children's bodies without the children's consent.  It's the ethics of deciding for your son that he will have no foreskin that is being debated here.  (Not to mention, of course, that the procedure provides no health benefits to speak of and that complications are inherently very serious given the region being operated on.)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2012, 08:00:42 PM
The concept of maximum individual freedom isn't valued in every culture as it is in the west. And the jewish children aren't complaining. The only people who are throwing a fit are ones who's people won't be really affected by the ban.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on July 11, 2012, 08:05:40 PM
in case nobody has noticed, parents make ALL decisions for their children until they're legal adults.

Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

Ban those too.


BTW, phrases like "sawing off the genitals of" makes it seem A WHOLE FUCKING LOT WORSE than it actually is.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 11, 2012, 08:09:04 PM
Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

There are, at times, actual medical advantages to removing tonsils or being enrolled in therapy programs, not to mention that these things don't affect your body's permanent aesthetic.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on July 11, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised. Myself, and a ton of other people have zero problems, functionally or aesthetically, with their dick.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: King Postwhore on July 11, 2012, 08:14:12 PM
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised. Myself, and a ton of other people have zero problems, functionally or aesthetically, with their dick.

Mines shaved and and it's still working.  I beat it everyday.

Seriously.  Not much you can do.  It's up to your parents and their beliefs.  Can't wait till someone sues their parents for their foreskin back.  Surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2012, 08:14:33 PM
Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

There are, at times, actual medical advantages to removing tonsils or being enrolled in therapy programs, not to mention that these things don't affect your body's permanent aesthetic.

And doing what is medically best for your child is a value. Just like assuring our sons are circumcised in a specific way is our value.  You may not share our values but you have no right to deem them inferior to yours. If enough jewish men decide they hate circumcision they can deal with it within our culture. But it is NOT your place to say what nother group of people do simply because you have a different set of values.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 11, 2012, 08:15:55 PM
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised.

I don't know how I did that.  I said that circumcision provided no actual medical advantages and that it fundamentally changes your body's permanent aesthetic, which are pretty widely documented facts.

Regardless, I'm stepping out of this thread, because it has occurred to me that no one in here actually wants to have a discussion.  Good day.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 11, 2012, 08:19:36 PM
I'm out too because my culture and our values have essentially been deemed insignificant and inferior to popular wester morals.  The amount of intolerence in this thread is astounding. In fact I'm just leaving DTF for a while. Ill be back when I can hopefully see this place as what it is and not just the ignorance in this thread. Tah.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on July 11, 2012, 08:30:06 PM
I'm not an expert on Judaism by any means, but I remember Rabbi Shmuley saying on Penn & Teller Bullshit that it's not necessary for Jews. It's not necessary for Muslims either. In fact, the Quran is emphatic that man is physically perfect and made in God's image. I can understand people wanting to preserve the practice for its cultural significance though. Banning it will just inflame religious minorities and create a black market, which is a scary thought.

OT, but here's an interesting factoid I learned today: the Dogon people of Mali believe all humans are born hermaphroditic and circumcision assigns them to their proper gender.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 12, 2012, 03:05:05 AM
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Odysseus on July 12, 2012, 04:05:26 AM
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on July 12, 2012, 06:46:08 AM
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 12, 2012, 07:02:28 AM
I've never had any bacteria infections, nor have I heard of anyone having those. But then again, I'm sure people wouldn't talk about it.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 12, 2012, 03:27:12 PM
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 12, 2012, 03:28:28 PM
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...
Agreed. I was actually thinking of making the exact same point, earlobes and all, but you beat me to it. :lol
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 12, 2012, 04:04:28 PM
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 12, 2012, 04:10:54 PM
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 12, 2012, 04:15:47 PM
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

rumborak

Yeah, but both Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend later recanted, so I don't think that means anything.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 12, 2012, 04:23:31 PM
Now there's a reference I don't get at all :lol

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 12, 2012, 04:26:30 PM
Fun fact: The song 'Cut My Hair' was originally not about Townsend's hair.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 12, 2012, 04:30:11 PM
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
Nah, I've seen higher in circumcised, not uncircumcised. But I'm assuming the typo. The stuff I've seen shows that circumcised penises have much more bacteria accumulation and thus, the risks. I watched a pretty informative (albeit pretty gross) video on it not long ago, although I'm not sure where to find it now.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: pogoowner on July 12, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

rumborak

Yeah, but both Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend later recanted, so I don't think that means anything.
:rollin
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 12, 2012, 04:35:04 PM
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
Nah, I've seen higher in circumcised, not uncircumcised. But I'm assuming the typo. The stuff I've seen shows that circumcised penises have much more bacteria accumulation and thus, the risks. I watched a pretty informative (albeit pretty gross) video on it not long ago, although I'm not sure where to find it now.

Yeah, no idea where you've heard that.


Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision#Hygiene
The American Academy of Pediatrics observes “Circumcision has been suggested as an effective method of maintaining penile hygiene since the time of the Egyptian dynasties, but there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene.”

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision#Local_infection_and_inflammation
By 8 years, circumcised children had a rate of 11.1 problems per 100 children, and uncircumcised children had a rate of 18.8 per 100. The majority of these problems were for penile inflammation including balanitis, meatitis, and inflammation of the prepuce. However, the relationship between risks of penile problems and circumcision status varied with the child's age. During infancy, circumcised children had a significantly higher risk of problems than uncircumcised children, but after infancy the rate of penile problems was significantly higher among the uncircumcised. These associations were not changed when the results were adjusted statistically for the effects of a series of potentially confounding social and perinatal factors.[176]

Quote from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1720543/?tool=pmcentrez
Data on 402 908 children were identified from 12 studies (one randomised controlled trial, four cohort studies, and seven case–control studies). Circumcision was associated with a significantly reduced risk of UTI (OR = 0.13; 95% CI, 0.08 to 0.20; p<0.001) with the same odds ratio (0.13) for all three types of study design.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: LieLowTheWantedMan on July 12, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
Ohh pfft, guess I had my UTI one mixed up. :lol My bad. Anyways, I found the video I watched. It's long, gross, and NSFW. But it's informative.

Here NSFW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_dzeDvx2QA)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 12, 2012, 04:58:45 PM
Let me rant here about the usage of "significant" in those quotes. You can have a negligible effect that's statistically significant. Don't use the word "significant", it suggests otherwise.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El JoNNo on July 12, 2012, 05:33:32 PM
The only real objection I see in this thread is that of a historical nature. Everyone for circumcision seems to want to have it stay legal for historical cultural/religious reason and then try to back it up with claims of health benefits. Oddly enough not the health benefits before. Those against it are for reasons of freewill and not altering a non-consenting person.

Since everyone in this thread can easily point to a study or article showing there position to be the correct one. I can easily settle this.. Reasoned freewill trumps culture and superstition at all times. If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.


Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 12, 2012, 05:47:14 PM
If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.

Yes, and thank you for very succinctly making the argument for why murdering infants (i.e. "abortion") should be outlawed.  But that's not what the thread is about, so let's get back on topic.  ;)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El JoNNo on July 12, 2012, 05:55:57 PM
If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.

Yes, and thank you for very succinctly making the argument for why murdering infants (i.e. "abortion") should be outlawed.  But that's not what the thread is about, so let's get back on topic.  ;)

Oh you :lol
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 12, 2012, 05:56:41 PM
:bosky:
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 12, 2012, 05:58:18 PM
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings; the question is, is a zygote alive?

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on July 12, 2012, 06:10:28 PM
Quote from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1720543/?tool=pmcentrez
Data on 402 908 children were identified from 12 studies (one randomised controlled trial, four cohort studies, and seven case–control studies). Circumcision was associated with a significantly reduced risk of UTI (OR = 0.13; 95% CI, 0.08 to 0.20; p<0.001) with the same odds ratio (0.13) for all three types of study design.

This paper cites the Wiswell studies which are deeply flawed. The problem with Wiswell's studies is that he told parents to forcibly retract their sons' foreskins and wash them with soap. Not only will soap kill off the good, naturally occurring bacteria, but the foreskin is actually meant to adhere to the glans until puberty. If you broke a little girl's hymen and forcibly douched her, she'd probably get an infection too. The bottom line: leave it alone. If you're raising an intact child, just wipe off any excess urine and don't try and scrub under the foreskin.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: RuRoRul on July 12, 2012, 06:36:05 PM
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Anyway, I realise that for some people this is an emotional issue (or at very least a personal one) and that it is a significant part of your culture, so to see people who it doesn't really affect casually discussing whether or not it's "WRONG" in a sort of academic way could easily annoy you, make you angry or defensive. I don't think anyone is really trying to be insulting or dismissive towards people or cultures that perform it though - I know I certainly wasn't trying to be, I just think it's quite an interesting issue to discuss, and if it's going to be discussed at all it should at least be the key issues that are being addressed.

I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. Being circumcised or not seems to be happiness and health-neutral (or at least so close to it that any difference is negligible), based on what I've seen so far, so I don't think that's a huge issue. But just the question of whether a parent should be able to make permanent alterations to a person's body at an age where they are incapable of consent is something to think about, imo. The analogy of another culture removing part of the earlobe is a good one in my opinion, and even the one about the tattoo, which was dismissed without much reason as far as I can tell, could work. Lets say it's a tattoo that isn't even readily visibile - hell, one on the genitals to make the location match, if such a procedure could be performed with the exact same risks associated with it as circumcision (I don't know if that's really possible or not). And I'm not trying to make these analogies as a way to demean the procedure, just to try to provide similar alternatives to think about that don't provoke such personal or emotional responses because they refer to real people who have undergone the procedure, or don't just seem so normal that they are automatically accepted.

But it's not hard to imagine that if people had had such procedures performed on them and lived with them all their lives, then "The earlobe doesn't do anything, so what does it matter?" or "It seems perfectly normal to me, so it's never bothered me" would be common responses. Yet even if the effect and reasons behind it were the same, I'm not sure people would be so happy if they heard about these procedures being done.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 12, 2012, 06:43:52 PM
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Your correction is a good one. We kill things that are alive all the time (cows, chickens etc. because they're delicious, bugs because they're bothersome), so proving a fetus was alive wouldn't really do much.  It's whether a fetus is a person that matters, because with personhood comes a bunch of rights, like the right not to be killed.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Scheavo on July 12, 2012, 06:55:17 PM
Well, to answer your bait, your argument rests on the rather illogical application of the word "infant" to a zygote. Nobody wants to kill living beings a person; the question is, is a zygote alive a person?

rumborak
Hopefully you don't mind, I feel that's a better distinction than just being alive, which will hopefully be less likely to invite response. Whatever you think the answer is to that question, I think we can all agree that prelonged discussion of it belongs outside a thread about circumcision, so hopefully this won't get too sidetracked.

Your correction is a good one. We kill things that are alive all the time (cows, chickens etc. because they're delicious, bugs because they're bothersome), so proving a fetus was alive wouldn't really do much.  It's whether a fetus is a person that matters, because with personhood comes a bunch of rights, like the right not to be killed.

And to tie it in with this thread, we don't give infants the same rights as we do an adult, or even a 2 year old. It's not necessarily violating the rights of an infant to circumcise him. It's not entirely irreversible either.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on July 12, 2012, 07:44:48 PM
If this was about any facet of Bosk1's religion, we'd be banned in a heartbeat

But it's okay for him to make snide comments and be bigoted about things he doesn't like


fuck you bosk. you are the embodiment of hypocritical assholes


/tiphat
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 12, 2012, 07:50:08 PM
Well.

This thread escalated quickly.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: El JoNNo on July 12, 2012, 07:52:52 PM
Ouch.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 12, 2012, 07:55:07 PM
If this was about any facet of Bosk1's religion, we'd be banned in a heartbeat

But it's okay for him to make snide comments and be bigoted about things he doesn't like


fuck you bosk. you are the embodiment of hypocritical assholes


/tiphat

Well, despite your effort to go out in a blaze of glory, I'm going to just ignore the immature personal attack for a moment.  Do it again, and you'll be parting ways with the forum.  But setting that aside for just a moment since you seem to basically be a good, if somewhat misguided, soul...

First off, I don't even have the first clue which post your response is aimed at, so your post really doesn't even make sense to me.

Second, uh...what?  ???  No, I have never, as far as I am aware, shown any bias against people making negative comments about Christianity.  If anything, I go out of my way to be even more lenient about anti-Christian posts as opposed to anti-[insert religion here] posts simply because I want to be extra careful about not being biased.  You can't even make that argument.

Third, uh...what?  ???  I'm not sure why you think I'm making snide or bigoted comments about you religion.  I didn't.  And if you paid closer attention, you probably would have figured out that, if anything, I support your side of the argument more than the other side.  I think it is stupid to ban circumcision.  Again, if you paid attention, you would realize you have it backwards.

Fourth, knock off the personal attacks/namecalling.  Seriously.  It just screams out "attention grab."  If you want to be banned for breaking the rules, fine.  You of all people know I don't have a problem banning you.  But it's silly to try to play the martyr.  There's a big difference between yourself and a martyr:  people mourn when martyrs die.

So...wanna try again?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Germany
Post by: Gadough on July 12, 2012, 08:15:28 PM
pretty much everyone seems happy with their situation, circumcised or not.

This is why I think the whole argument is silly. My parents chose to circumcise me for non-religious reasons. Do I care? Not in the slightest. I'm perfectly content living life without a foreskin. People get so riled up when talking about this, and honestly, I find it amusing. I don't understand why it's such a big deal.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 12, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
Yeah, but it's easy for you to say because it's the societal norm,so you feel "safe". Now imagine living in Germany where almost no-one is circumcised. There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.
I have to wonder how many cultural Jews in the US would choose to not circumcise their kids if they felt it would single out they kid unnecessarily.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Gadough on July 12, 2012, 08:22:28 PM
Good point. Still, it makes me wonder why those cultural ideas developed. What about it is so inherently bad that causes it to be a source of shame?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Implode on July 12, 2012, 09:49:20 PM
There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.

The same could be said for the opposite here in the US. Like you said, it seems like one way isn't better than the other. It's just cultural difference. Let people do what they want.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Sigz on July 12, 2012, 11:42:33 PM
Yeah, but it's easy for you to say because it's the societal norm,so you feel "safe". Now imagine living in Germany where almost no-one is circumcised. There a circumcision becomes a potential cause of derision amongst your peers.

Eh, at least here it's basically a non-issue. I've had a couple friends who were uncircumcised and it was never an issue for them. The whole 'gym class shower' scenario is non-existent in present day schools, and beyond that circumcision isn't even brought up in a social context.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Progmetty on July 13, 2012, 08:03:07 AM
Out of all things to be mad at another cultural group about; they picked one that doesn't affect the rest of society at all.
I'm circumcised, I never thought to ask my parents whether it was religious or cultural.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised until I was like 18, imagine my shock learning it from a porn film, going "wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
All due respect the thing looks creepy, must be double the work for a sex partner to perform oral work there heh
But it occurs to me that people with uncircumcised penises probably feel less guilty after masturbation than circumcised people, with nothing looking back at you in the after moments :lol
"It's got no face, no personality!" I recall the words of Elaine Benes.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: YtseBitsySpider on July 13, 2012, 08:28:56 AM
circumcised or uncircumcised...........either way........they'll fit right in.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 13, 2012, 09:27:02 AM
Interestingly, a Jewish friend of mine moved to Switzerland about a year ago, with her Christian husband (well, they're both "culturally" Christian and Jewish). Well, she's knocked up now and mentioned the discussion she had with her husband about circumcision. Her being American and Jewish she immediately assumed the kid would be circumcised, but interestingly she changed her mind later.
Nothing much to draw from the story, just figured I'd mention it because it fit in here.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Scorpion on July 13, 2012, 03:15:00 PM
I don't have much to offer to this discussion that hasn't been said already, but I want to offer mad props to metty for this one:
"wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.

For the record, I agree with what PLM said: parents make decisions for their children all the time, even some that are irreversible, which is why I would just adopt a live-and-let-live stance on this one.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Progmetty on July 13, 2012, 03:34:35 PM
:lol Scorpion mein wütend Freund, did you read what I said before that? It was my reaction to seeing an uncircumcised penis on a porn movie for the first time ever when I was 18 years old, having not known there is such a thing as uncircumcised penis prior to the incident.
I had a similar reaction at 12 years old at my first vagina sighting heh
Pass the chill pill jar around this thread.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: antigoon on July 13, 2012, 03:35:34 PM
"wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
This is the best thing I've read on this forum in years :lol
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Scorpion on July 13, 2012, 03:45:26 PM
:lol Scorpion mein wütend Freund, did you read what I said before that? It was my reaction to seeing an uncircumcised penis on a porn movie for the first time ever when I was 18 years old, having not known there is such a thing as uncircumcised penis prior to the incident.
I had a similar reaction at 12 years old at my first vagina sighting heh
Pass the chill pill jar around this thread.

Oh I read it alright, but that quote was just pure gold.
And I'm already pretty  :chill
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Progmetty on July 13, 2012, 03:52:03 PM
Oh I'm the one that misunderstood your post, I thought "mad props" meant "angry props" cause of what you said after that.
My bad :)
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Scorpion on July 13, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
metty, you know what? This quote is worthy of replacing lonestar's in my sig.

You may now feel honoured.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: YtseBitsySpider on July 13, 2012, 04:07:20 PM
this thread makes me want to go watch the Legend of Sleepy Hollow
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Progmetty on July 13, 2012, 06:19:36 PM
The power went out earlier as I was typing a reply.
I just got off the phone with my dad and he said it's for religious reasons and Egyptian Christians (Coptic Church) do it as well.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: bosk1 on July 13, 2012, 06:27:12 PM
Did you mention to him how you first discovered the difference?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Dark Castle on July 13, 2012, 06:31:04 PM
Out of all things to be mad at another cultural group about; they picked one that doesn't affect the rest of society at all.
I'm circumcised, I never thought to ask my parents whether it was religious or cultural.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised until I was like 18, imagine my shock learning it from a porn film, going "wtf is wrong with that guy!!!!!!", a Pull Me Under penis that ends suddenly.
All due respect the thing looks creepy, must be double the work for a sex partner to perform oral work there heh
But it occurs to me that people with uncircumcised penises probably feel less guilty after masturbation than circumcised people, with nothing looking back at you in the after moments :lol
"It's got no face, no personality!" I recall the words of Elaine Benes.
This.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Progmetty on July 13, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
Did you mention to him how you first discovered the difference?

My father likes to assume I didn't know how babies are made until my wedding night so I don't like to break his illusions   ;D
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: ReaPsTA on July 13, 2012, 07:30:49 PM
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...

I've wanted to come up with a rebuttal to this but I really can't.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 13, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...

I've wanted to come up with a rebuttal to this but I really can't.

That's because he's arguing based on emotion and not logic. For instance, if circumcision didn't exist and then today suddenly it was introduced, people would freak the hell out and go up in arms. The reason they're not is because the practice has been around for thousands of years. Cutting off the lobes is being introduced as a brand new concept which freaks people the hell out. So comparing the reactions of something that has been around for thousands of years to something that hasn't is illogical. Just as a purple person would scare everyone because we haven't seen one, yet a black or white person doesn't scare the other because we're used to it already. I'm sure if there a pagan community that had been ritualistically cutting off the earlobes for thousands of years, we wouldn't throw any more of a fit than the people here are currently throwing about circumcision.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Adami on July 13, 2012, 07:44:11 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/germany-tells-jews-muslims-free-circumcise-121016362.html


Looks like Germany made the right call, whatever their motives.
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: rumborak on July 13, 2012, 07:49:36 PM
I am still stunned at the stupidity of the Cologne judges. This was the absolutely obvious outcome of this, and their ruling has done nothing but tarnish Germany's image.

rumborak
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: theseoafs on July 13, 2012, 08:40:47 PM
Well they might as well just make it legal again, huh?
Title: Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
Post by: Rathma on July 13, 2012, 11:39:29 PM
I'm still really curious about how circumcision got started out in the first place. Who would even come up with the idea of cutting off all their babies' dickskins? There must have been some kind of reasoning in the distant past before it was reduced to divine will.