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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Ħ on May 20, 2012, 02:54:28 PM
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Has anyone had a real encounter with God? I've been talking to friends who say they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit (which is a Biblical feeling) and it imparts an incredible feeling of warmth and peace.
There are anecdotes of experiences with God all over the place. I've never had any kind of definitive experience. Never heard an audible voice or indescribable warmth or anything. Any feelings I've ever had have been potentially been self-imparted, because I forced myself to get in the God zone. It would be great to have a real heart-to-heart, face-to-face revelation, though.
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
What if there is a God that talks to people that way?
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Has anyone had a real encounter with God? I've been talking to friends who say they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit (which is a Biblical feeling) and it imparts an incredible feeling of warmth and peace.
I remember when I finally got my Master's degree in form of a document and an official handshake. For the next three days I was kinda filled with a warm fuzzy feeling, it felt like walking on air.
rumborak
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
What if there is a God that talks to people that way?
Then he has a sick sense of humor, becuase he makes every schizophrenic say different things; and the one's who "talk to God," usually make themselves out to be special "prophets," and such. If all schizophrenics were saying the same thing, I might be swayed a little. But they don't. That means either God is an asshole, or we sh could accept psychology and neuroscience which can pretty much identify what goes wrong with the human brain to cause these apparitions.
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
What if there is a God that talks to people that way?
Then he has a sick sense of humor, becuase he makes every schizophrenic say different things; and the one's who "talk to God," usually make themselves out to be special "prophets," and such. If all schizophrenics were saying the same thing, I might be swayed a little. But they don't. That means either God is an asshole, or we sh could accept psychology and neuroscience which can pretty much identify what goes wrong with the human brain to cause these apparitions.
I'm sure some people are schizophrenics. But what about your everyday non-psycho who claims God spoke to him?
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But what about your everyday non-psycho who claims God spoke to him?
How do you tell who is crazy and who is an actual prophet?
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But what about your everyday non-psycho who claims God spoke to him?
How do you tell who is crazy and who is an actual prophet?
I don't mean prophets, necessarily. I'm mostly just talking about things like God telling people that their purpose in life is to serve in India, for example.
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Ya... you'd have ot prove that those such people exist (a friend who you don't believe is schizophrenic is hardly proof). Come back to me when you've done brain scans of someone claiming to talk to God that both shows they're not schizophrenic, and that they're not lying. Both of those can be seen in brain scans, so it's actually possible.
But I severely doubt you'll find that. Plus, why would god make schizophrenics, if they're going to drown out the people he's truly speaking through? He likes to give himself a challenge, he likes to try and make a rock that even he could not lift?
There's one possibilty I will admit. Someone who misidentifies what their conscious is. If you want to label your conscious as God, then ya, I spose "God" is talking to you. But again, seeing as how people's conscious changes from one person to another, it becomes evident that the source isn't "God," but an individuals own mind/brain/body.
I don't mean prophets, necessarily. I'm mostly just talking about things like God telling people that their purpose in life is to serve in India, for example.
[/quote]
And how exactly do you know that's God? That's just an assumption.
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@H: Same question, then: how do you tell who is crazy and who has legitimately heard a voice from God?
All around the world, people are having religious experiences. Some claim the Christian God spoke to them; others, Allah or Yahweh or any number of little-known tribal gods. God is telling an American right now that he has to build the world's largest nondenominational Christian church while simultaneously telling someone on the other side of the world that it must be destroyed.
At some point you have to ask yourself what exactly constitutes a true religious experience and what is just wishful thinking.
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Sheavo - I guess there'd be some way to know it was God talking to you. Maybe signs, external confirmation...or maybe it's just some innate feeling of knowledge and confidence. I have no idea. It's the reason I started the thread.
Mr. Oafs - I'm not saying a religious experience proves anything one way or another. I think it counts for something, though, if you yourself have had an experience.
I'm just wondering if anyone here on DTF has had an experience where they found God, or something similar, and if they could talk about it.
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Mr. Oafs - I'm not saying a religious experience proves anything one way or another. I think it counts for something, though, if you yourself have had an experience.
What exactly does it count for if religious experiences don't prove anything?
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I mean, someone else's religious experience shouldn't mean anything to you. But if you personally heard an audible voice saying, "This is God, follow me", would that count as anything for you? It doesn't have to, but it would for me.
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If I had a religious experience like that, it would mean a lot to me. I'd probably get my brain scanned just to be on the safe side, but if it turned out that I wasn't delusional, I would be overjoyed.
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
The one time someone gets it right. :|
@theOP
There are different spiritual gifts outlined in the Bible (you can just google "spiritual gifts" and be greeted by websites giving you all sorts of evaluaters things). I personally believe (not because of websites) that God has gifted me with discernment. I've always believed in the power of prayer, and I feel that I have a clear communication path with God, I guess. I'm not some sort of seer or prophet or anything special. I just sort of "know" when God is telling me something.
I think the most recent-ish example of this was about 8 or so months ago when my mom had applied for a job in NC. She asked me what I felt and I said "I don't really think you'll be going". I never got the feeling that she would. However, as soon as she told me she applied for a job in Texas, I felt that God was telling me "this is it, she's going to go there". And she's in Texas, now.
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Thanks Snapple, for the share. I definitely think spiritual gifts are biblical and were real at least at one point in the past. It's a debated issue, though, in theology, and I dunno where to stand.
I just sort of "know" when God is telling me something.
I felt that God was telling me "this is it, she's going to go there". And she's in Texas, now.
Could you elaborate on these? Was it otherworldly knowledge? Was it a feeling you would never feel in a normal setting?
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
The one time someone gets it right. :|
@theOP
There are different spiritual gifts outlined in the Bible (you can just google "spiritual gifts" and be greeted by websites giving you all sorts of evaluaters things). I personally believe (not because of websites) that God has gifted me with discernment. I've always believed in the power of prayer, and I feel that I have a clear communication path with God, I guess. I'm not some sort of seer or prophet or anything special. I just sort of "know" when God is telling me something.
I think the most recent-ish example of this was about 8 or so months ago when my mom had applied for a job in NC. She asked me what I felt and I said "I don't really think you'll be going". I never got the feeling that she would. However, as soon as she told me she applied for a job in Texas, I felt that God was telling me "this is it, she's going to go there". And she's in Texas, now.
I was golfing today. I had 150 to the front of the green, and 160 to the pin, and no wind. Usually, 150 is a standard 7 iron, but I hit it longer than most. Cant put a spin on it, so I need to hit 150, and let it roll to the green. So, Im thinking 8 iron right?
Then, a voice in my head says, no...hit the 9 iron. Wait, what? Well, it wasnt a voice I could literally hear, because that is a clear sign of a mental disorder, but a very clear feeling that I need to go down 2 clubs. Well, I hit the nine, and put it 3 feet from the cup!!!! Clearly there was something that was giving me clear direction to go down 2 clubs. Not only that, but that 2 club formula worked the rest of the round!
Am i being a dick? Maybe. But Im just proving a point of view that these types of conversations and directions can happen to everybody, everyday, everywhere, and are self generated.
What makes your scenario with your Mom's job different than mine with golf? Nothing, except that we each have our own interpretation of inner dialogue.
IMO
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What's up with all the backlash in this thread? People have had spiritual experiences for thousands of years, including what some describe as encounters with God. There'll be no progress in understanding human nature or religion if our interpretation of these claims has to be either they're mad or they actually did converse with God =_=
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One idea I've been toying with is that prayers should be spoken aloud, even when you're by yourself. I think the same can be expected of God - in the Bible, he spoke to people outside of just being inside their heads.
I'm not confident in that position, but it makes the most sense to me ATM.
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What's up with all the backlash in this thread? People have had spiritual experiences for thousands of years, including what some describe as encounters with God. There'll be no progress in understanding human nature or religion if our interpretation of these claims has to be either they're mad or they actually did converse with God =_=
At the end of the day you have to rule out a number of religious experiences - you can't accept all of them.
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There'll be no progress in understanding human nature or religion if our interpretation of these claims has to be either they're mad or they actually did converse with God =_=
There's one possibility I will admit. Someone who misidentifies what their conscious is. If you want to label your conscious as God, then ya, I spose "God" is talking to you. But again, seeing as how people's conscious changes from one person to another, it becomes evident that the source isn't "God," but an individuals own mind/brain/body.
@snapple:
Humans are naturally biased towards self-confirmation. I'm willing to bet you have numerous "instincts" every day, which don't turn out true, but ou forget about those becuase they didn't turn out to be true. Also, the fact that your mom asked you what you felt, and you said you don't think she'd be going, could easily ahve swayed her to not go for that job, especially if you believes you when you believe you're talking to God. Also, the fact that she asked you what you felt about that instance, and no the Texas incident, implies to me that she had some reservations about going to NC, or that job.
I remember an event, let's see.. 7 years ago where at 3 am, some prostitute (I mean "stripper") knocked on the door of the house I was staying at. Kept asking for "Steve," and I kept telling her there's no one fucking named Steve. Knocked again 15 minutes later asking for Nathan. Again, no fucking Nathan. As I was going to bed, I remembered that two dickish friends were headed to the strip club that night, and Steve and Nathan happened to rhyme with me and my friends names (Reeve and Mason). I guessed that they called the stripper. Turns out I was right. God? Or an educated guess?
I'm gonna go with educated guess.
It really wouldn't be all that hard for God to proves he exists. External confirmation alone is suspect, being what we call the external world is really our own creation (which is why schizophrenia is possible in the first place). To really prove he exists, you'd have to bring in other people to disprove it's not a fabrication of your own mind. Like, tell 4 people the exact same phrase, to meet in the exact same place, on the same date, and to greet each other with the phrase your supposed to say. Ya know, something which shows universal communication, and not simply one guy saying one thing, another guy saying something else, etc. This is what we would consider the Truth, so it seems to be that God should be related to the Truth.
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Perhaps God isn't interested in performing magic tricks with the information he chooses to give.
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Isn't it weird for a being that created the world to hide in the dark corners of the human mind that are easily confused with mental disease?
rumborak
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Never said magic trick. I said that the "communication" people hear would have to be more than just something they alone can hear, it would have to be backed up by other persons.
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What's up with all the backlash in this thread? People have had spiritual experiences for thousands of years, including what some describe as encounters with God. There'll be no progress in understanding human nature or religion if our interpretation of these claims has to be either they're mad or they actually did converse with God =_=
They are described as encounters with God because there was no other way to describe these occurrences. However, we as a species have gotten to a point where many of these same experiences have actual natural explanations whether it be mental disorders, drugs, or whatever. You can believe something is spiritual nowadays but more often than not there is a perfectly valid logical answer that exists in our natural world. I mean everyone thought the Oracle at Delphi was some great prophet but it turns out she was just having hallucinations off the gas coming out of the chasm she used to sit on and spewed jibberish.
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What's up with all the backlash in this thread? People have had spiritual experiences for thousands of years, including what some describe as encounters with God. There'll be no progress in understanding human nature or religion if our interpretation of these claims has to be either they're mad or they actually did converse with God =_=
At the end of the day you have to rule out a number of religious experiences - you can't accept all of them.
I know this probably isn't really what you meant, but you can't rule out the religious/spiritual experiences themselves without good reason. The problem I suppose is when people use those experiences to spread dogma, like those people who've had near death experiences and claim to have gone to hell and come back, then go around giving speeches on the reality of hell. Their experiences were likely very real (though there's sure to be exaggeration) but that doesn't mean that what they got out of it has anything to do with objective reality that applies to everybody.
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I have had countless 'encounters' with God. Every thought or feeling, is an act of the god within me. God is love, in its truest form. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I think there is a fair distinction to be made between religions like Buddhism, and theological religions. "God" is a terribly fraught concept, but I don't necessarily think the general idea of "spirituality" is all that absurd. Don't feel like potentially breaking the forum rules, but I'll just say people should watch the movie: "DMT: The Spirit Molecule." It's hardly proof of anything, but it's also a complete enigma, and science can't currently explain the eery similarities in the experience.
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"God" is a terribly fraught concept, but I don't necessarily think the general idea of "spirituality" is all that absurd.
Very true.
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So I don't have to quote a bunch of people...
I won't really be debating the topic too much. I honestly believe that God gifted me with the ability to discern situations and such. I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally. However, I was just answering the OP's question. I was hoping some would see my post as "okay, this is what he believes and he's just trying to be helpful". None of you guys were rude at all :lol Just thought that I would be able to sneak a post in here without getting into a debate.
edit: about my mom not getting that job, she wasn't even offered. I was/am getting married. why does it matter what my opinion is on whether or not she leaves?
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If I heard a voice inside my head that wasn't my own, I'd freak the fuck out.
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If I heard a voice inside my head that wasn't my own, I'd freak the fuck out.
I should say it has never been a voice. Just a feeling that is indescribable. Kind of like the shit you take after chugging a bottle of habenero sauce. "Lava" is the best word, just doesn't do it any real justice.
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I should say it has never been a voice. Just a feeling that is indescribable. Kind of like the shit you take after chugging a bottle of habenero sauce. "Lava" is the best word, just doesn't do it any real justice.
I just don't see why one's intuition implies God, or anything supernatural.
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I should say it has never been a voice. Just a feeling that is indescribable. Kind of like the shit you take after chugging a bottle of habenero sauce. "Lava" is the best word, just doesn't do it any real justice.
I just don't see why one's intuition implies God, or anything supernatural.
it's just different. It starts getting into the faith part that won't be agreed upon.
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The beginning of Hebrews points out that God at one time spoke through the prophets...but now he has given us his Son as a perfect example. The implication (to me) being that now that we have a *PERFECT* example in Christ...prophets are no longer necessary.
Anyone who was hearing voices telling them anything at all I would question it. But out of respect, I wouldn't want to call them crazy out of the gate. I'd probably try to get them to reason out some scriptures. Such as the first chapter in Galations where God inspired Paul to write that "...even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed."
So that's pretty black and white that if *ANY* voice told you to do *ANYTHING* that was not in harmony with what the Bible says...it is to be immediately rejected.
Also the gift of the spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians also say that those gifts would eventually be done away with if you read the whole thing. With all these scriptures in mind...I don't buy into prophets, faith healers, or anyone who claims to have heard a message from God.
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Says the guy who claims that god talked through him.
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Says the guy who claims that god talked through him.
???
I hope you're joking...are you even talking to me? The very idea stabs at the heart of what I believe.
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Says the guy who claims that god talked through him.
???
I hope you're joking...are you even talking to me? The very idea stabs at the heart of what I believe.
Woah woah, I didn't mean you. I meant paul.
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OK....whew... Sorry about the confusion. That just threw me for a sec...
We're cool Adami. (bro hug)
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OK....whew... Sorry about the confusion. That just threw me for a sec...
We're cool Adami. (bro hug)
I might not agree with you on much, but JWs are the christians I have the most respect and understanding for. So we cool.
Dawg.
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"...even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed."
So that's pretty black and white that if *ANY* voice told you to do *ANYTHING* that was not in harmony with what the Bible says...it is to be immediately rejected.
Alright guys, go and rip out every book of the New Testament that was written after Galatians.
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OK....whew... Sorry about the confusion. That just threw me for a sec...
We're cool Adami. (bro hug)
I might not agree with you on much, but JWs are the christians I have the most respect and understanding for. So we cool.
Dawg.
What's JW stand for? Obviously the belief system is what Jammin's been proposing lately, but don't know the acronym.
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OK....whew... Sorry about the confusion. That just threw me for a sec...
We're cool Adami. (bro hug)
I might not agree with you on much, but JWs are the christians I have the most respect and understanding for. So we cool.
Dawg.
What's JW stand for? Obviously the belief system is what Jammin's been proposing lately, but don't know the acronym.
Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Guess that was my first thought, but I guess I don't see how what Jammin's been proposing fits what I know about JW.
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Guess that was my first thought, but I guess I don't see how what Jammin's been proposing fits what I know about JW.
There is *A LOT* of misinformation out there...I promise. You wouldn't believe what I hear at the door.
"You guys don't believe in Jesus"
"I can assure you we do."
"NO YOU DON'T!!!"
:facepalm:
Oh I could tell you more true stories....
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That's not the one I'm thinking of (mostly cause I'll be honest, I don't really care enough). More, the talking up of science, and the talking down of theology, but the refusal for blood-transfusions (perhaps more and more of an outdated concern anyways). Of course it's from my perspective, but I don't get how or why the Bible would talk blood transfusions at all, and "partaking of blood" is referring to something different than blood transfusions.
Just to be clear, not talking about the actual beliefs them-self, just the two beliefs don't immediately strike me as coherent (emphasis on immediately).
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I'm friends with a few schizophrenics and schizoid-type people who hear voices (amongst various other audio/visual hallucinations). I have no doubt whatsoever that to them their experiences are utterly 'real', but that doesn't act as proof that there is something from the outside giving them those experiences - they are just a strange part of neurology. One friend gets given missions by large rocks in rural areas in the name of various Christian saints. He also gets messages of a similar ilk about aliens from Alpha Centauri. I like and respect the guy, and I don't challenge his experiences at all - I just simply listen - because I know that his acceptance-as-real of the myriad things flowing through his head give him some modicum of stability, and it's not for me to disrupt that,
If you think you're hearing voices, then you should get yer brain checked out. If you think those voices are the specific God you happen to beleive in, then you should get your inflated ego checked out. If you think a 'strong feeling about a decision' is a sign from God, then you should just accept that a strong instinct doesn't require supernatural reasons behind it to be any less powerful - intuitions come out of your own reasoning, and if you have good reasoning skills, then that's why they're often right.
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I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally.
What about when you ARE wrong? Is it still God speaking to you? If so, why would he directly give you false information?
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I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally.
What about when you ARE wrong? Is it still God speaking to you? If so, why would he directly give you false information?
Rarely wrong was a diplomatic way of saying "God has never told me anything wrong, it's a matter of whether or not I listen"
Again, not really looking to debate.
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I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally.
What about when you ARE wrong? Is it still God speaking to you? If so, why would he directly give you false information?
Rarely wrong was a diplomatic way of saying "God has never told me anything wrong, it's a matter of whether or not I listen"
You genuinely beleive your God talks directly to you, and you don't always listen to what she has to say? Wow :)
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Honestly, if you hear a voice in your head, and you think it's God, it's time to go get diagnosed as a schizophrenic.
What if there is a God that talks to people that way?
I bet it's Anubis. That's Anubis all over, that right there.
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I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally.
What about when you ARE wrong? Is it still God speaking to you? If so, why would he directly give you false information?
Rarely wrong was a diplomatic way of saying "God has never told me anything wrong, it's a matter of whether or not I listen"
You genuinely beleive your God talks directly to you, and you don't always listen to what she has to say? Wow :)
At some point in your life, I'm pretty sure you didn't listen to authority
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I'm rarely wrong in the situations. I don't keep a running tally.
What about when you ARE wrong? Is it still God speaking to you? If so, why would he directly give you false information?
Rarely wrong was a diplomatic way of saying "God has never told me anything wrong, it's a matter of whether or not I listen"
You genuinely beleive your God talks directly to you, and you don't always listen to what she has to say? Wow :)
At some point in your life, I'm pretty sure you didn't listen to authority
I'm entirely anti-kyriarchy and entirely pro-equality and pro-freedom. There are a lot of times I don't listen to 'authority' because I perpetually question that 'authority' whenever I encounter it. However, the authority you refer to in my case is human authority - merely a fellow human being that is just as fallible as I myself. I'm entirely atheist, so anything to do with supernatural and non-human 'authority' is totally irrelevant to me.
In your case, however, the 'authority' is what you genuinely beleive to be the creator of the entire universe, speaking directly to you (which puts you automatically into a very 'privileged' position) - a mere human, and then you have the audacity to ignore/question her authority! It's quite an incredible notion to me :)
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People are stupid. That's pretty much it.
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I can understand not doing what the "voice" tells you if you have doubts it is god. But if you are sure it is god, the creator of everything, I find it difficult any believer would not do exactly what they are told post haste.
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I believe that I have had sacred experiences, but not voices telling me things.
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If I heard a voice inside my head that wasn't my own, I'd freak the fuck out.
I should say it has never been a voice. Just a feeling that is indescribable. Kind of like the shit you take after chugging a bottle of habenero sauce. "Lava" is the best word, just doesn't do it any real justice.
I'm partial to "hot liquid magma".
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Has anyone had a real encounter with God? I've been talking to friends who say they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit (which is a Biblical feeling) and it imparts an incredible feeling of warmth and peace.
There are anecdotes of experiences with God all over the place. I've never had any kind of definitive experience. Never heard an audible voice or indescribable warmth or anything. Any feelings I've ever had have been potentially been self-imparted, because I forced myself to get in the God zone. It would be great to have a real heart-to-heart, face-to-face revelation, though.
Edit: This was a story about an experience that's close to me. I'm having second thoughts about sharing. But, I like this thread. I hope more people contribute some of their stories.
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Why is it that when someone claims to have had a personal experience with god, when asked about it, they always say the can't share because it's too personal? WHY BRING IT UP THEN?! It also makes you less credible, but I'll be honest, I wouldn't believe you regardless.
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Why is it that when someone claims to have had a personal experience with god, when asked about it, they always say the can't share because it's too personal? WHY BRING IT UP THEN?! It also makes you less credible, but I'll be honest, I wouldn't believe you regardless.
Mostly that. (For me anyway)
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First things first, I know it sounds absolutely stupid to those who reject the belief system that such encounters take place. However, for Christians who believe in the Holy Spirit, they believe they are indwelled by the very spirit of God himself. It's not a long jump from that belief to the belief that said Spirit can/does communicate with you. I personally believe the Spirit's voice can speak in a variety of ways: intuition, conscience, and yes, maybe something even resembling a real voice.
I've had a few so-called "charismatic" experiences with God, even though I'm much less inclined to that sort of Christianity now than I was 10 years ago. I was "slain in the Spirit" once. I felt the power of God gently lay me down in such a way that I know it was not me (or the people praying for me) doing it. I still genuinely believe this was real to this day. However, as previously stated, I've kind of "moved on" from that type of Christianity that looks for such experiences.
Lest anyone think I'm supremely arrogant, I actually don't personally find much common ground with the Christian who feels like God is speaking to her about every little thing. I've been around groups where people who think they have "prophetic" giftings just go out on the street to randomly approach others with messages from God. I don't have that kind of confidence in my ability to discern what might be just me and what might be God's voice.
But anyway, just trying to answer H's question. No doubt the:
(https://clarkbunch.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/haters-gonna-hate.jpg)
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Why is it that when someone claims to have had a personal experience with god, when asked about it, they always say the can't share because it's too personal? WHY BRING IT UP THEN?! It also makes you less credible, but I'll be honest, I wouldn't believe you regardless.
My first instinct was to share. Then after I shared, I wished I hadn't. It's that simple.
The intention wasn't to be credible, it was to share a beautiful experience just as the OP requests. Sorry about that one.
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This fits in a number of topics we've had recently. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html)
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i believe the same type of questioning/doubt people who see UFO's go through should be the same with "god encounters" people
ex. see Tick's thread
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I had the most profound encounter recently at a lectureship.
There were about 5000 in the auditorium singing "holy, holy, holy." The first verse was the sopranos only. The second verse was the altos. When just the women are singing I tend to close my eyes and just listen to the words.
As the lyrics refer to laying down our crowns before the Holy of Holies, accompanied by the beautiful voices of just the women, I felt like I went into a trance for just a half-second (I will admit I attribute part of it to the fact that I was exhausted from lack of sleep :)) and thought I was literally there. My entire body froze for that moment and was covered in goosebumps (literally).
I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.
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WHERE'S YOUR CROWN KING NOTHING?!
Sorry.
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I would LOVE to have an experience that changes my skeptical mind to believe, with all my heart, in a god and the afterlife.
But I wont force a square peg in a round hole to have those feelings/beliefs/experiences.
EDIT: There was a time not long ago, where I was going through a rough patch, and I would wake up in the morning with an empty feeling. I felt lost, was always tired in the morning, and couldnt sleep at night. I would even have feelings of despair at times.
I wondered if this was a sign that it was time to fill the hole I was feeling with god and religion.
I asked my wife's family's priest (he married us too, and I like him a lot) what he thought. He said he would always encourage anyone to have a relationship with god, but that he thought it was probably depression.
So I go to the doctor, and get on some meds for bipolar II, and now I feel fine.
It further confirms my skepticism. Many people would just make that unfounded connection that it was god and jesus calling them, when it is likely a medical issue and/or just going through a rough patch in their life.
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Personal Encounters of the God kind: In the beginning…
My first military assignment; I had a supervisor who was the biggest womanizer and smooth talker I’ve ever met. Men wanted to be like him, women wanted to be with him and most everyone wanted to be his friend. He was very charismatic and never had a short list of female conquests or drunken parties to talk about.
When he became a follower of Christ it influenced a lot of people. To me this was the first evidence of God I ever witnessed. He became my first personal encounter because I saw the before and after. Still, I was one of the last hold outs from the many people who were now becoming Christians around me. “What’s it going to be Heaven or Hell?”, he asked. I said, “Hell! I love sinning too much.” To which he replied, “Do you know how stupid you sound?” I didn’t respond.
Seeing the change in the people around me and with a nominal Christian upbringing, I thought I’d read the Bible for myself. That inspiration to read on my own, I see now as a personal encounter with the leading of God’s Spirit.
I might have looked at the Bible a few times in my life before this, but when I read it now I became hungrier to read more and would lose sleep to consume it. It “burned inside” like nothing I ever read or experienced. I was expecting condemnation for my willful disobedience by lying, committing sexual immorality, theft etc., but instead I was convicted by God’s grace to repent.
I took a step of faith! I trusted in Jesus as the Son of God who came in the flesh to pay the penalty for my sin, as a demonstration of God’s love while I was still a sinner. His love brought a new birth in my life, with new freedom and empowerment to live. I was invigorated to say the least and I found joy in life I had never known.
I then sought baptism as an outward sign of putting off my “old man” and rising in this new life. After this and even now I don’t “love sinning too much” and when I have/do it hurts deeply because Jesus Christ is Lord and it’s my desire not to continue in sin. His grace is truly amazing to have saved someone like me.
To me, the evidence or re-creation in others, the inspiration to seek God, the conviction to repent of sin, the new birth experience, the desire to obey and subsequent sorrow for sin are personal encounters with God that I hope everyone experiences. My hope is all would come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord because His friendship is out of this world before miracles, signs and wonders come into it. I think forgiveness is a personal encounter with God, because at the cross justice and mercy kiss on everyone’s behalf to encounter forgiveness and give forgiveness.
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I would LOVE to have an experience that changes my skeptical mind to believe, with all my heart, in a god and the afterlife.
But I wont force a square peg in a round hole to have those feelings/beliefs/experiences.
EDIT: There was a time not long ago, where I was going through a rough patch, and I would wake up in the morning with an empty feeling. I felt lost, was always tired in the morning, and couldnt sleep at night. I would even have feelings of despair at times.
I wondered if this was a sign that it was time to fill the hole I was feeling with god and religion.
I asked my wife's family's priest (he married us too, and I like him a lot) what he thought. He said he would always encourage anyone to have a relationship with god, but that he thought it was probably depression.
So I go to the doctor, and get on some meds for bipolar II, and now I feel fine.
It further confirms my skepticism. Many people would just make that unfounded connection that it was god and jesus calling them, when it is likely a medical issue and/or just going through a rough patch in their life.
This is serious, but maybe it was a higher being that lead you to man of faith who turned you to a doctor? It seems like you respect the priest and perhaps he knew that he couldn't be like "ya homes, that was God, yo. Start prayin' im gettin the bread'n'drink for some communion up in hurr"
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Why would God send you to a doctor? God can do everything a doctor can. Why the unnecessary middleman?
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Why would God send you to a doctor? God can do everything a doctor can. Why the unnecessary middleman?
Modern science has come a long way. And it wouldn't be an unnecessary middleman. Certain people have to be talked to in certain ways. For example, (as many of you have seen) if my pride gets stepped on, I tend to get really pissy and what not. But, if you stroke my ego for a moment, you can then drop the hammer on me and it won't feel so bad.
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Yeah, but the net effect of the experience was that he doesn't believe in God or that he needs God to be happy. That was really God's intention?
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Sorry if it feels like I'm ripping at you unnecessarily, but this sort of thing -- insisting that works of humans were works of God -- gets under my skin.
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Yeah, but the net effect of the experience was that he doesn't believe in God or that he needs God to be happy. That was really God's intention?
Well, I don't know God's intentions. It could have just been a "seed" that was planted in our fellow poster here. Sometimes they grow, sometimes they die out, sometimes I hate myself for using that metaphor. But, it's the only one that seems to work.
edit: I don't feel that you're ripping at all. I'm not saying it was a God thing. But, I, as a believer, have to wonder if it was God. Nothing is taken away from what the priest and doctors did.
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That's fair.
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That's fair.
Wait, no! I take it back! You're all ignorant!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4m4wbYc08k&feature=related
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I would LOVE to have an experience that changes my skeptical mind to believe, with all my heart, in a god and the afterlife.
But I wont force a square peg in a round hole to have those feelings/beliefs/experiences.
EDIT: There was a time not long ago, where I was going through a rough patch, and I would wake up in the morning with an empty feeling. I felt lost, was always tired in the morning, and couldnt sleep at night. I would even have feelings of despair at times.
I wondered if this was a sign that it was time to fill the hole I was feeling with god and religion.
I asked my wife's family's priest (he married us too, and I like him a lot) what he thought. He said he would always encourage anyone to have a relationship with god, but that he thought it was probably depression.
So I go to the doctor, and get on some meds for bipolar II, and now I feel fine.
It further confirms my skepticism. Many people would just make that unfounded connection that it was god and jesus calling them, when it is likely a medical issue and/or just going through a rough patch in their life.
:tup I respect you not wanting to force anything on yourself.. even if you had beliefs etc.
The situation you described could be one of those situations where someone comes to faith out of despair. There's nothing wrong with that since Christianity gives hope, but you're talking authenticity. Personally, I've wrestled with depression at varying degrees and times but have always used natural methods and habits to thrive. I've even experienced what I consider prolonged supernatural joy and peace. I like what Snapple was sharing about pride and ego, because when I've had experiences that make meds more unthinkable I don't think about them, when actually they've been a help at times. I'm preaching to myself writing this. :) It's normally pride that resists right?
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Arguments that take the form "If I was God, I would do things a certain way," "God doesn't do things this way", "Therefore God doesn't exist" aren't very impressive.
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Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."
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Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."
It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?
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I had the most profound encounter recently at a lectureship.
There were about 5000 in the auditorium singing "holy, holy, holy." The first verse was the sopranos only. The second verse was the altos. When just the women are singing I tend to close my eyes and just listen to the words.
As the lyrics refer to laying down our crowns before the Holy of Holies, accompanied by the beautiful voices of just the women, I felt like I went into a trance for just a half-second (I will admit I attribute part of it to the fact that I was exhausted from lack of sleep :)) and thought I was literally there. My entire body froze for that moment and was covered in goosebumps (literally).
I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.
That's a powerful MUSIC experience - why does it have to be anything to do with God? I've had many a similar thing happen when listening to live music. Both times I've seen Diamanda Galas (https://'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTkGZO_XDb8') live I was pretty much like that all the way through, then spontaneously burst into tears when I left the venue after the first gig. I'm pretty sure Diamanda would hunt me down and punch me if I claimed that it was anything to do with God.
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Rick - could it be God using music to speak to him? In this case, he believes so. You don't get to tell him it was something else. If he thought he stabbed himself when it was clearly a gunshot wound, then I would let that fly. When it's spiritual, beyond physical, you don't get to tell someone what they thought happened.
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Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."
It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?
It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.
Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.
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Rick - could it be God using music to speak to him? In this case, he believes so. You don't get to tell him it was something else. If he thought he stabbed himself when it was clearly a gunshot wound, then I would let that fly. When it's spiritual, beyond physical, you don't get to tell someone what they thought happened.
In the context of this forum, one can say what the alternatives can be. And as I read Yesh's post, it appeared he wasn't ready to attribute the experience as being directly from god anyway.
The explanation that it could be completely a physical and emotional reaction (from lack of sleep and intense love of music) is entirely possible.
I get goosebumps from certain musical passages....I'm pretty sure it isnt god....but in Yesh's case, only he will know if it is knowable.
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Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."
It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?
It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.
Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.
Word.
I would love to have the experience that makes me believe. To know there is a god and I will be "up there" after death is probably a great way to live life. But until I know it in my heart AND brain, I wont waste my time. One thing worse than living without faith is living with fake faith.
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I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.
That's a powerful MUSIC experience - why does it have to be anything to do with God? I've had many a similar thing happen when listening to live music. Both times I've seen Diamanda Galas (https://'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTkGZO_XDb8') live I was pretty much like that all the way through, then spontaneously burst into tears when I left the venue after the first gig. I'm pretty sure Diamanda would hunt me down and punch me if I claimed that it was anything to do with God.
That was the purpose of the two statements above. The attributing it to God was not that He caused me to have the experience, but my faith in the truth of the lyrics brought about the emotions.
In reality, I would have had that experience whether God exists or not because of my faith.
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Then the same can be said for the silly arguments that "God works in mysterious ways."
It's not an argument though. It's the fact that we won't understand everything that God does. What could be more intuitive than that?
It's just as much of an argument as the other side. There's also a difference between not understanding why God does something, and seeing that God is "supposedly" doing something that we clearly identify as illogical.
Ya know what's intuitive for me? Not believing that God exists.
There's nothing wrong with saying that "God works in mysterious ways". He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. We barely know anything, can't do much at all, and have cloudy perceptions of goodness. What authority do we have to say God should do this or should do that?
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It's a fallacy: appeal to ignorance. You're basically even admitting that it's a fallacy. If God works in mysterious ways, how do you even know it's God? By putting God on such a mysterious level, you deny yourself any right to actually talk about him, and you even undermine your own ability to say god work's in mysterious ways.
So there is plenty wrong with it, at least if you want to be logical and rational.
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Appealing to ignorance is not a fallacy. Saying that you have access to the answers to everything - now that's something much more concerning.
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This is the fallacy:
1) There are things humans don't understand.
2) (From 1) Therefore, there must be a being that understands everything.
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I don't remember anyone in the thread that argued that.
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You're right, I misunderstood what was being discussed.
Let's try again: the fallacy is to attribute anything to God whatsoever when we're already claiming that we're so below him that we can't understand what he's doing.
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Nah, there are some things we can attribute to God. We aren't completely ignorant. We're just mostly ignorant.
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What's something specific that we can certainly attribute to God (i.e. something that isn't "life")?
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Hold on, all I'm saying is that it's wrong to say that God ought to act in such-and-such way because we, with our limited knowledge, think he should.
It might also be wrong to ascribe to God any properties at all. It might not be. Even if we can't ascribe any properties to God, that doesn't validate Sheavo's argument. An invalid argument is invalid in and of itself.
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I don't know. To me, this whole "God works in mysterious ways" stuff just seems like a way to write off the problem of evil, to keep people quiet and obedient.
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Appealing to ignorance is not a fallacy.
Ya it is.
https://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html
There is no evidence against p.
Therefore, p.
There is no evidence for p.
Therefore, not-p.
An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.
There is no evidence that this event was not God
Therefore God.
That is essentially what you're saying when you say that, "God works in mysterious ways." The whole reason you say it's mysterious, is because you can't prove and support the claim (or give evidence) that the event was God.
If you're going to say something doesn't exist, like appealing to ignorance, it shouldn't be so easily verifiable as a fallacy.
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Saying "God works in mysterious ways" was never used as an argument for God's existence in this thread.
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I never said it was?
I'll be a little less lazy: A = God caused this event, ("God works in mysterious ways")
There is no evidence against "God caused this event,"
Therefore, "God caused this event."
It doesn't matter if you didn't actually phrase it as an argument, saying that God works in mysterious ways is making claims, claims which are illogical. Not putting something in the form of an argument, doesn't mean arguments aren't be presented, or that you can't say some illogical, fallacious, etc.
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This discussion comes from the starting point of already believing in God. It's not necessarily using experience with God to prove his existence. My OP was directed towards people that believe in God.
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And the discussion around the OP has had the claim "God works in mysterious ways" being made.
I'm pointing out how that is illogical. This has nothing to do with God's existence. If God existed, and you could prove that such, it would still be a fallacy to say that, "God works in mysterious ways," unless you could somehow directly prove that God caused or planned the event.
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Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.
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People are absolutely entitled to believe in something irrational and/or illogical, aren't they?
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Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.
Now your doubling down with the post hoc fallacy .
People are absolutely entitled to believe in something irrational and/or illogical, aren't they?
Sure, just don't call it logical
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Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.
Now your doubling down with the post hoc fallacy .
I'm very aware that correlation does not mean causation....and I'm often very skeptical of such things. But some things are just *FAR* beyond simple correlation.
My personal experience.
I was at a point in my life where the more research I did into The Bible (as well as all arguments for and against from several outside sources) the more it was aggravating me that The Bible DID, in fact, have all the answers. I was convinced that the Bible was truth. But I really didn't want to take the next step. I hated religion with every fiber of my being and I didn't want to make any move toward being a "suit and tie guy". Everyone I knew who was following Bible principles were people I just could not relate to at all. They didn't swear, smoke, drank only in moderation, were always peaceable, always loving. I was an unstable long hair, heavy metal maniac who didn't even own a suit.
I prayed ALL night to a God I knew must exist. "Please, I cannot relate at all to these people. But I know that that is the direction I need to go in. I'm just too far away from that right now. I need someone on my level...someone I can relate to. Someone who is where I am at, and we're going in the same direction. It would mean so much to me because it would make me feel like I had someone who has been where I have been so that we can relate to each other along the journey of cleaning up our lives."
The next day, I arrived at a special Bible assembly and went to the back cafeteria so I wouldn't have to interact with anyone and sat down at a table to wait until the service started. The cafeteria was mostly empty...but a man I never met walked up to me and introduced himself. He said he and his family had just moved into the area from Maine... He then introduces me to his son. His son is my age, the lead singer of a heavy metal band (so was I), trying to get off drugs and smoking (so was I), had never been religious but had recently done some research and was thinking about turning his life around (as was I), was skeptical (so was I)....and of the dozens of congregations in the local area, their whole family just happens to have recently been assigned to the congregation I had just recently become associated with. We became friends, and I started progressing rapidly.
You may call that "reading too much into it" or "correlation does not equal causation"...but to me, everything added up to more than just correlation. It was more than *JUST* "B happened after A, therefore A must have caused B." I believe that God answered my prayer...right down to the minute detail.
But we may have to agree to disagree once again. I can only testify as to what happened to me, and what I believe to be true.
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But we may have to agree to disagree once again. I can only testify as to what happened to me, and what I believe to be true.
I love the story! That last line is very true. Sometimes people have to realize that it all comes down to what you have faith in. The faith can come from a religion or it can come from the latest scientific theory. It's all about what individuals believe to be true to have meaning in their lives.
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How many people pray for the same thing, and nothing happens?
Were gonna have to disagree. I can think of several factors that influenced that outcome, which aren't supernatural.
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How many people pray for the same thing, and nothing happens?
Were gonna have to disagree. I can think of several factors that influenced that outcome, which aren't supernatural.
And that's fine. But I want to clarify on this point... I can't just snap my fingers and God answers my prayer. He always hears me, but he always knows the best time to act, or not act. To pretend that God is obligated to answer my every request would be to imply that God is MY servant....not vice versa.
Also...I cannot speak for every case. But the Bible does say that God *DOES NOT* answer all prayers. He *HEARS* all the prayers of honest hearted ones. Who is honest in their heart and who is not? That's not for me to judge. Only God can judge hearts. But even when he does hear a prayer, we are sometimes asking for something that is not in our own best interests. My core belief is that God has something that humans lack...*ABSOLUTE PERSPECTIVE*. Therefore he always acts in the right way, and at the right time.
EDIT: Additionally...he has not answered *ALL* of my prayers....and often, that's been for the best. Later perspective (there's that word again) makes me realize that getting what *I* thought I needed, would have not really been what I needed.
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And with the above explanation, you cant possibly be wrong. Every possible result is given a justification. Ones heart isn't pure enough. God just didn't want to act. There's no way to falsify the proposal.
And no, that doesn't make it true. Solipsism is logically irrefutable as well. Falsifiability is a hallmark of science, and we all know what science can do.
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But we're talking about *A PERSON*... Yes, God is *A PERSON*.
When you inject an individuals free will and power to decide, you cannot possibly predict with unfailing inerrancy (is that a word?) whether a person will respond or not respond to any given situation. If you know them *really well*, you can get a pretty good idea based on patterns...but there is still no *EXACT* science to human behavior (which, even in its flawed state, is originally based on God's own traits....so no, I'm not saying God is human.)
It's like saying that just because I don't know every play that the Seahawks are going to run next year, they won't play at all. Even if a hypothetical perfect team were to execute every play perfectly and win every game by a massive shutout, and never make a single mistake all season...I still would not know what they were going to do from play to play....only that the team does, in fact, exist, that they are playing football, and that they would win.
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^I don't understand how this post refutes Scheavo's most recent post, which made the (very true) point that the question of Christian prayer is fashioned in such a way as to be unfalsifiable -- which doesn't provide any evidence for the Christian faith.
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But we're talking about *A PERSON*... Yes, God is *A PERSON*.
When you inject an individuals free will and power to decide, you cannot possibly predict with unfailing inerrancy (is that a word?) whether a person will respond or not respond to any given situation. If you know them *really well*, you can get a pretty good idea based on patterns...but there is still no *EXACT* science to human behavior (which, even in its flawed state, is originally based on God's own traits....so no, I'm not saying God is human.)
It's like saying that just because I don't know every play that the Seahawks are going to run next year, they won't play at all. Even if a hypothetical perfect team were to execute every play perfectly and win every game by a massive shutout, and never make a single mistake all season...I still would not know what they were going to do from play to play....only that the team does, in fact, exist, that they are playing football, and that they would win.
Or, God doesn't exist, and that's why there isnt any consistancy.
I would also say humans are much more predictable than you're implying, and if God is God, he wouldnt be marred by the imperfections which is usually the cause for human inconsistency.
And what theseoafs said.
The next day, I arrived at a special Bible assembly and went to the back cafeteria so I wouldn't have to interact with anyone and sat down at a table to wait until the service started. The cafeteria was mostly empty...but a man I never met walked up to me and introduced himself. He said he and his family had just moved into the area from Maine... He then introduces me to his son. His son is my age, the lead singer of a heavy metal band (so was I), trying to get off drugs and smoking (so was I), had never been religious but had recently done some research and was thinking about turning his life around (as was I), was skeptical (so was I)....and of the dozens of congregations in the local area, their whole family just happens to have recently been assigned to the congregation I had just recently become associated with. We became friends, and I started progressing rapidly.
1) You were at a Bible event, thus vastly increasing the chances of meeting someone with similar faith issues. If you were just minding your own business at the park, or something, would make this a little odder.
2) Looking like a singer of a metal group, which I assume you did, would have drawn the attention of the guys father, making him come up to talk to you. Add this with #1.
3) Most young people I know, especially those into heavy metal, are on drugs and smoke. Even outside this demographic, and youre still looking at a fairly common thing.
Was this in Seattle? Cause its a very large city, thus making all those things even that more likely.
And of course, now at least, youd say that if this didn't happen, it wouldn't mean anything.
Perhaps you are right, perhaps God is as you say, and works as you say - I'm not actually objecting to this right now - but it is illogical and irrational to claim that he does all of these things given your perspective, and what you have laid forth. You have shown correlation, but as science often shows, correlation does not equal causation. I could construe all sorts of silly conclusions with the logic you are using.
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^I don't understand how this post refutes Scheavo's most recent post, which made the (very true) point that the question of Christian prayer is fashioned in such a way as to be unfalsifiable -- which doesn't provide any evidence for the Christian faith.
This brings up an EXCELLENT point...which I feel the need to clarify further. I don't think it could be understated that this experience was followed by careful research. It was deep research into the arguments for and against that built my faith that there *IS* a God...that he has given us a guidebook to live our life by...and that he is loves people and wants to help those who honestly seek to serve him. The answer to my prayer simply convinced me that God had heard my prayer and chosen to answer it. That incident, by itself would have been a brief emotional moment...but it would have had no substance without the deep digging and searching that I did. The second chapter of Proverbs puts it this way: "...if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God." So a very earnest seeking of knowledge is required, or any miraculous answering of a prayer would just be a flash in the pan...and emotional moment that is transitory. My faith is not based solely on that experience. My faith is based on knowledge. I detest "blind faith"...it goes against everything the Bible teaches.
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I can, maybe shed a little bit of a different perspective on this. To go back a few posts...
The saying "God works in mysterious ways" can be attributed to the perceivably bad or tragic things that happen on earth. For example, when a family member dies at a young age, there is, in reality a bigger picture or reason why that family member had to die. For example, when my mother died at the age of 50, I can't tell you how many things changed for the better despite her being an incredible influence on earth. Details aren't really necessary, just trust me, they did. My cousin died at the age of 39 a month after my mother.While there is obviously a lot of pain because she isn't here, the positive affects it has had are much more prevalent to so many people. Again, I could write an essay on the positive affects of these two great women's premature deaths.
That leads into God answering prayers. God is all knowing. He knows the consequences of an answered prayer. I've found that prayers always do get answered for me, although they aren't in the way or shape that I imagine they would be answered. Here's a really basic example. Say an 8 year old boy prays for a bicycle. Well, maybe, the way it would work is, a situation would arise for the kid to make a few bucks delivering papers. Maybe the local paper puts an ad in the paper and his father sees it. Now, not only does the kid have enough money to buy the bike himself, but through his answered prayer, now has learned how to work for what he gets.
Anyway, of course there are all kinds of reasons for any of these situations. That's why we have faith. We have faith in God, we have faith in ourselves, we have faith in our technology and sciences. With all of this faith, there should be little room to argue about it. We're all different and have faith in different things. It's good to debate about it, but in the end it just matters what you as a person believe in.
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What you attribute to faith and God in those examples of bad things happening, I would call optimism; something that comes from within, and not something that happens for a grand reason.
What you attribute to God in the bike example, I would attribute to personal goals and achievements, and self improvement, again not something that has any measurable intervention from a higher power.
While I don't believe in God, I believe your post does show a positive point of religion, with the strength and hope it can give people to improve their lives and deal with difficult situations, but I find it all relates equally well to my own belief system which has no God in the equation at all, and I don't agree that a higher power fits into it.
I'm not trying to discount your points entirely, I just want to give a different perspective on a different perspective. :P
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Agreed. Take god out of the equation, and there are 100% valid and reasonable explanations for everything described.
But if putting god in the equation helps you in areas like healing, etc, then more power to you.
I personally feel that by attributing explanations to an outside influence, you lose a certain amount of control. If you take responsibility or take credit, for dealing with situations and such, I feel you learn how to be a stronger and more capable person. The only skills you gain from attributing a tragedy/success/healing etc to a god, is the skill to do that same thing again.
Obviously not exactly true in all cases, but I have seen it many times. The lessons that can be learned are sometimes missed, when attributing it to god. JMO
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What you attribute to faith and God in those examples of bad things happening, I would call optimism; something that comes from within, and not something that happens for a grand reason.
What you attribute to God in the bike example, I would attribute to personal goals and achievements, and self improvement, again not something that has any measurable intervention from a higher power.
While I don't believe in God, I believe your post does show a positive point of religion, with the strength and hope it can give people to improve their lives and deal with difficult situations, but I find it all relates equally well to my own belief system which has no God in the equation at all, and I don't agree that a higher power fits into it.
I'm not trying to discount your points entirely, I just want to give a different perspective on a different perspective. :P
Good post, Blob.
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^I don't understand how this post refutes Scheavo's most recent post, which made the (very true) point that the question of Christian prayer is fashioned in such a way as to be unfalsifiable -- which doesn't provide any evidence for the Christian faith.
This brings up an EXCELLENT point...which I feel the need to clarify further. I don't think it could be understated that this experience was followed by careful research. It was deep research into the arguments for and against that built my faith that there *IS* a God...that he has given us a guidebook to live our life by...and that he is loves people and wants to help those who honestly seek to serve him. The answer to my prayer simply convinced me that God had heard my prayer and chosen to answer it. That incident, by itself would have been a brief emotional moment...but it would have had no substance without the deep digging and searching that I did. The second chapter of Proverbs puts it this way: "...if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God." So a very earnest seeking of knowledge is required, or any miraculous answering of a prayer would just be a flash in the pan...and emotional moment that is transitory. My faith is not based solely on that experience. My faith is based on knowledge. I detest "blind faith"...it goes against everything the Bible teaches.
Your not responding to what I said, you just gave a huge non-sequitur.
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Suppose a person already has a belief in God. They pray for something. The prayer gets answered. Either (1) it was a coincidence, or (2) God made it happen. Because that person already has a belief in God, (2) is a viable option. Given their conception of God, it's reasonable to attribute the answered prayer to God.
I have to respond to this
This brings up the question, why would God help someone who doesn't have faith? He will, though, help you find the faith, the rest.is up to how much you really want it in your life. I've felt connections to something spiritual before, it may or may not be God, but it's a warm comforting feeling. Like dreaming of good things.
Also, a lot of "religions"(man,I hate that term) use prayer. Which helps me realize we are all one in the same, only we express our love differently. One time we all spoke and understood each other,then the tower.fell and he gave us different tongues
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Buddhists pray, but they don't have a God. For them its a matter of introspection.
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Buddhists pray, but they don't have a God. For them its a matter of introspection.
Buddah is their jesus though. Meaning they're real spiritual.
That's what i'm trying to get at, being spiritual isn't religious.
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Buddhists pray, but they don't have a God. For them its a matter of introspection.
Buddah is their jesus though. Meaning they're real spiritual.
Woah woah woah. No he isn't.
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Buddhists pray, but they don't have a God. For them its a matter of introspection.
Buddah is their jesus though.
Nope.
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Buddah is their jesus though.
???
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OK, listen to this and tell me what you think.
I was working my recovery program, and part of that is to take an honest and brutal look at my past, a dubious chore at best and harrowing and heartbreaking most of the time. I was stuck, not willing to put my memories to paper. Unrelated to this, I was looking for pics of the Sistine chapel to be clever here on DTF(something involving hef I'm sure) and searched 'god'. In the middle of all these images of the sistine chapel was a cover of a book called "Can God Heal Me?'' or something like that. The author of the book had my name, freakiest shit ever. I finished my chore in the next two days after weeks of flaking on it. To me that was a personal encounter, God telling me to get off my ass and finish my talk, that the healing was at the end of it, and it was, I have been a different person since that moment.
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That's a pretty cool little coincidence. Was it your full name, by the by, or just your first/last?
But the thing is, that "encounter" was hardly unlikely. It's completely conceivable that a cover of a Christian book would pop up when you Googled the Sistine Chapel, and, statistically speaking, your name is probably pretty common. This happening is so likely and so readily explainable that it borders on the mundane.
I don't mean to devalue your spiritual experience -- if this helped you to complete your recovery program and has drastically improved your life in some way, more power to you. But you did ask for input and these were my first thoughts as I was reading.
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What you attribute to faith and God in those examples of bad things happening, I would call optimism; something that comes from within, and not something that happens for a grand reason.
What you attribute to God in the bike example, I would attribute to personal goals and achievements, and self improvement, again not something that has any measurable intervention from a higher power.
While I don't believe in God, I believe your post does show a positive point of religion, with the strength and hope it can give people to improve their lives and deal with difficult situations, but I find it all relates equally well to my own belief system which has no God in the equation at all, and I don't agree that a higher power fits into it.
I'm not trying to discount your points entirely, I just want to give a different perspective on a different perspective. :P
Oh ya, absolutely. That's what I'm talking about. Everybody's got their own perspective, and that's awesome. I think we all inspire each other because of our different beliefs too. It's great. My good friend is Buddhist and he's always recommending books and we're always inspiring each other to be better people even though our belief systems are different. It's just important to embrace different perspectives and not dismiss them. Agreed. Take god out of the equation, and there are 100% valid and reasonable explanations for everything described.
But if putting god in the equation helps you in areas like healing, etc, then more power to you.
I personally feel that by attributing explanations to an outside influence, you lose a certain amount of control. If you take responsibility or take credit, for dealing with situations and such, I feel you learn how to be a stronger and more capable person. The only skills you gain from attributing a tragedy/success/healing etc to a god, is the skill to do that same thing again.
Obviously not exactly true in all cases, but I have seen it many times. The lessons that can be learned are sometimes missed, when attributing it to god. JMO
I hear you. But, I think the control issue isn't exclusive to believing in God because personal responsibility and motivation (for example) are moral decisions that may or may not be attributed to religion. In saying that, there is definitely a difference between embracing your spirituality and using it. The difference being that embracing spirituality gives people the courage and confidence to be loving, hard-working individuals. Then there is using spirituality for hope exclusively( ie. in the form of prayer). I think this is what you're talking about because it can lead to people just sitting there relying on a god to do everything for them. Essentially, that extreme is the tendency to give all things bad or good to God (which is where I think you were going with it). I personally choose a bit of both. I'll pray, but my spirituality helps me to push myself to earn every inch of what I have (my family, my friends, the roof over my head, other cliches, etc) and be a better person every day. Like I responded above to Blob: it's great that we all have our own beliefs that push us, teach us, and can be shared with each other.
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That's a pretty cool little coincidence. Was it your full name, by the by, or just your first/last?
First and last, and it was the name, not the initials I go by, R.J. Turns out the guy is an evangelical preacher in the south.
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I had the most profound encounter recently at a lectureship.
There were about 5000 in the auditorium singing "holy, holy, holy." The first verse was the sopranos only. The second verse was the altos. When just the women are singing I tend to close my eyes and just listen to the words.
As the lyrics refer to laying down our crowns before the Holy of Holies, accompanied by the beautiful voices of just the women, I felt like I went into a trance for just a half-second (I will admit I attribute part of it to the fact that I was exhausted from lack of sleep :)) and thought I was literally there. My entire body froze for that moment and was covered in goosebumps (literally).
I am generally very cautious to try and attribute experiences to being directly from God, and still won't in this case.
I do attribute it, though, to the fact that I have complete confidence that I will one day be in that place casting my crown down before Him.
[UFO mode]Are you sure that it wasn't just the fact that they had the air conditioning turned down so low? I mean I know you think you know what happened to you, but there are plenty of similar accounts of this happening to people, where it turned out to be a stroke, narcolepsy, bath salts, or any host of other things. There has to be a much more logical explanation for this. Certainly you're open to the idea right?[/UFO mode]
I'm sorry, I REALLY couldn't help it. lol
On topic, I don't think I've ever had a personal encounter with God. I did the whole "I accept Jesus" thing and got baptized, etc., when I was a teenager and I DO believe in God, but I am very skeptical about a lot of things, the possibility of a personal encounter with Him being one of those things.