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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Nekov on February 23, 2012, 06:27:17 PM

Title: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Nekov on February 23, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Quote
Renowned American academician Noam Chomsky has criticized the US allegations against Iran's peaceful nuclear program, and described "Israel" as the major threat to the global security.

In his latest articled published in the Guardian, the senior American historian and philosopher argued that Iran's "strategic doctrines are defensive, designed to deter invasion."

He lashed out at the propaganda campaign by the US media outlets aimed at portraying Iran as a "threat" and argued that Tehran would never even "come close to initiating a nuclear war."

Chomsky pointed out that despite the anti-Iran notions propagated by the Western politicians, "in Europe, polls show that "Israel" is regarded as the leading threat to peace," and in the Middle East and North Africa, Washington shares the status with Tel Aviv.

https://europeanphoenix.com/en/component/content/article/34-societa/925-chomsky-israel-a-major-threat-to-the-global-security-.html (https://europeanphoenix.com/en/component/content/article/34-societa/925-chomsky-israel-a-major-threat-to-the-global-security-.html)
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: 7StringedBeast on February 23, 2012, 06:48:20 PM
In before shitstorm.

Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 23, 2012, 07:53:28 PM
Israel is currently lead a bunch of idiots. But they're not a threat to international security.


Noam Chomsky has been known to be rather...............critical..............of Israel.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Scheavo on February 23, 2012, 08:33:24 PM
I wil say Iran does seem like a "rational agent." more so than our media makes it out to be.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 23, 2012, 08:40:51 PM
I wil say Iran does seem like a "rational agent." more so than our media makes it out to be.

Iran, as an agent as you put it is fine. They won't blow anyone up.


The problem lies in who gets access to their technology by proxy? Iran has many shady contacts, several of which WOULD use a nuke if given access.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: rumborak on February 23, 2012, 08:55:12 PM
In an interesting corollary to this, Iran's Ayatollah tweeted (I know, wtf) that the acquisition of nuclear weapons is a sin.

rumborak
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 23, 2012, 08:57:26 PM
I would think that their interests would best be served by keeping a tight reign on their nukes.  It doesn't help them to hand them over to rogue agents, and the consequences would be terribly severe.  Even the Rooskies would stop supporting them if an Iranian nuke blew up something or someone important.  Also keep in mind that we already have an even less stable Pakistani regime which also has some questionable amigos, plus a pretty damned negligent Russia, who's much more likely to let bad actors get ahold of a bomb. 

I am forced to agree that Israel probably is the biggest threat to peace, simply because they're easily the most likely to attack neighboring countries.  However, I don't think Israel's impending attack on Iran will have much effect on global security.  They've done it before, and everybody knows they'll do it again.  My guess is that most of the world will wag their finger at them for a day and then move right the hell on along.  We'll support them, as usual. 
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Orthogonal on February 23, 2012, 10:26:45 PM
I am forced to agree that Israel probably is the biggest threat to peace, simply because they're easily the most likely to attack neighboring countries.  However, I don't think Israel's impending attack on Iran will have much effect on global security.  They've done it before, and everybody knows they'll do it again.  My guess is that most of the world will wag their finger at them for a day and then move right the hell on along.  We'll support them, as usual.

I think it's pretty obvious that the U.S. is the biggest threat to global peace. They've already demonstrated that they will attack anyone, even pre-emptively. Sure, countries like Israel, Pakistan, Iran and Russia seem like they have potential to be a loose cannon, but the US is acting like a loose cannon by bombing everyone they can. God help us if Santorum is elected.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 12:23:17 AM
Israel is currently lead a bunch of idiots. But they're not a threat to international security.


Noam Chomsky has been known to be rather...............critical..............of Israel.

I totally agree with the first part. And based on some things I've heard him say about this and other issues, I'm convinced that for all of Chomsky's brains, he has a bit of a crazy side. Not that being critical of Israel is crazy, but you can be crazy with regards to otherwise reasonable ideas.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Nekov on February 24, 2012, 05:29:08 AM
I wil say Iran does seem like a "rational agent." more so than our media makes it out to be.

Iran, as an agent as you put it is fine. They won't blow anyone up.


The problem lies in who gets access to their technology by proxy? Iran has many shady contacts, several of which WOULD use a nuke if given access.

That is a fair concern however I'm still unable to understand why the US thinks everyone is against them. I think Orthogonal got it right saying the US is the country that threatens the world peace the most always saying the middle east countries are bad and want to destroy the world and trying to turn other countries against them. Why would poor countries like them would be interested in nuking the US? What do they get out from that?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 06:35:23 AM
What poor countries like them get out of nuking the US is stopping them turning the world against the Middle East. :P

Srs answer: as Adami (?) said, it's not nation-states we need to worry about but non-state actors like terror groups getting a hold of weaponry normally relegated to nation-states. Destructive power of that magnitude reaching unpredictable elements is a danger, and it's really only an unlucky coincidence (at least that's the best description I can give on four hours of sleep) that the terror constituency is comprised of Middle Easterners.

In addition to that you have vital and desirable national interests in the Middle East, ranging from oil to just simply ensuring regional stability (obviously we are clueless on that point, but hey).
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 24, 2012, 08:18:35 AM
I agree about terrorist actors, but what interest does Iran or anybody else have in giving them nukes?  Iran would be held equally accountable.  They're catching enough flack as it is.

And why no concern over Pakistan?  Hell, they're practically the new Afghanistan as far as [what's left of] al Qaeda is concerned. 
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 10:21:08 AM
Of course there's concern over Pakistan. And I'm sure Iran wouldn't do something so foolish, but as mentioned already they do have sketchy contacts, desired or not, who could acquire weapons with or without the state's permission. Hell, it's a big fear even with Russia, where there are dozens of nuke silos missing (how's that for a worrying prospect?).
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 24, 2012, 10:26:57 AM
At this point I feel compelled to point out that Israel seems to have a better working relationship with terrorists than Iran.  If we're going to start judging a country's right to defense by the company they keep, well. . .
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 24, 2012, 10:49:53 AM
At this point I feel compelled to point out that Israel seems to have a better working relationship with terrorists than Iran.  If we're going to start judging a country's right to defense by the company they keep, well. . .

And which major terrorist groups does Israel currently have contacts with? Unless you count the insane religious jews who's major terrorist attacks consist of destroying trees....
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 24, 2012, 12:24:10 PM
At this point I feel compelled to point out that Israel seems to have a better working relationship with terrorists than Iran.  If we're going to start judging a country's right to defense by the company they keep, well. . .

And which major terrorist groups does Israel currently have contacts with? Unless you count the insane religious jews who's major terrorist attacks consist of destroying trees....

Mujahedin-e-Khalq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahedin-e-Khalq)

These are the guys the Mossad are using to do their leg work.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 24, 2012, 12:36:32 PM
At this point I feel compelled to point out that Israel seems to have a better working relationship with terrorists than Iran.  If we're going to start judging a country's right to defense by the company they keep, well. . .

And which major terrorist groups does Israel currently have contacts with? Unless you count the insane religious jews who's major terrorist attacks consist of destroying trees....

Mujahedin-e-Khalq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahedin-e-Khalq)

These are the guys the Mossad are using to do their leg work.

Ah yes, one group who so far has done one major attack is definitely way worse than Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, Hezbollah etc. Much worse.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 24, 2012, 12:50:07 PM
I wasn't really trying to make qualitative comparisons.  Israel is pretty up front about using the guys to conduct operations in Iran, right now.  I'm not sure that's the case with Iran.  Could be, I don't know, but I don't think they're publicly confirming it whilst snickering like Muttley. 
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 01:15:02 PM
I wasn't really trying to make qualitative comparisons.  Israel is pretty up front about using the guys to conduct operations in Iran, right now.  I'm not sure that's the case with Iran.  Could be, I don't know, but I don't think they're publicly confirming it whilst snickering like Muttley.

The point of Adami's previous post being that although they're not exactly up-front about it, it's not exactly a secret.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 24, 2012, 01:28:13 PM
I wasn't really trying to make qualitative comparisons.  Israel is pretty up front about using the guys to conduct operations in Iran, right now.  I'm not sure that's the case with Iran.  Could be, I don't know, but I don't think they're publicly confirming it whilst snickering like Muttley.

"better" is a qualitative word.

The group existed before Israel had anything to do with them, I doubt Israel propped them up and are  "using" them in anyway. The idea of a group wanting to take down the leaders or Iran isn't exactly revolutionary (no pun intended). And Iran is pretty open about its backing of Hamas, Hezbollah and just about any group that aims to destroy Israel.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 01:52:08 PM
Plus I seem to remember learning somewhere that Hezbollah was created by Iran.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Scheavo on February 24, 2012, 03:44:56 PM
Iran wouldn't give up it's nukes, it would be traceable to them, and they'd get fucked hard for it. And they know it. Look at what we did to Afghanistan, for "9/11," even though it had basically nothing to do with the attacks. They want nukes, because it puts them at the same table, and they become someone you just can't ignore, or push around.

There's not only Pakistan, but a ton of missing nuclear material, due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea also apparently has the capability, and I'd put them a hell of a lot crazier than Iran. Iran would be a drop in the bucket, if anything, and not the doomsday event it's being displayed as.

The problem is nuclear weapons, and that they exist, it is not Iran.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 24, 2012, 03:55:00 PM
Iran wouldn't give up it's nukes, it would be traceable to them, and they'd get fucked hard for it. And they know it. Look at what we did to Afghanistan, for "9/11," even though it had basically nothing to do with the attacks. They want nukes, because it puts them at the same table, and they become someone you just can't ignore, or push around.

There's not only Pakistan, but a ton of missing nuclear material, due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea also apparently has the capability, and I'd put them a hell of a lot crazier than Iran. Iran would be a drop in the bucket, if anything, and not the doomsday event it's being displayed as.

The problem is nuclear weapons, and that they exist, it is not Iran.

I tried very hard to find something to disagree with, just for the hell of it....but couldn't find anything.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2012, 04:29:44 PM
I mean, would we attack a confirmed, openly nuclear power? Iraq was sort of a different situation, it wasn't entirely certain they had them or how far along development/enrichment was, but they weren't in a deployable form under which we would risk nuclear retaliation.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: ReaPsTA on February 24, 2012, 09:53:40 PM
I wish Noam Chomsky wouldn't say anything in public ever again.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on February 24, 2012, 10:07:58 PM
I wish Noam Chomsky wouldn't say anything in public ever again.

Yea, speech and linguistics aren't really his thing.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Scheavo on February 25, 2012, 02:48:05 PM
Iran wouldn't give up it's nukes, it would be traceable to them, and they'd get fucked hard for it. And they know it. Look at what we did to Afghanistan, for "9/11," even though it had basically nothing to do with the attacks. They want nukes, because it puts them at the same table, and they become someone you just can't ignore, or push around.

There's not only Pakistan, but a ton of missing nuclear material, due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea also apparently has the capability, and I'd put them a hell of a lot crazier than Iran. Iran would be a drop in the bucket, if anything, and not the doomsday event it's being displayed as.

The problem is nuclear weapons, and that they exist, it is not Iran.

I tried very hard to find something to disagree with, just for the hell of it....but couldn't find anything.

Well thank you.

On the topic, anyone see Newt Gingrich call Ahmadinejad a dictator of Iran, and out of his mind? It's a rather interesting case of a politicians, probably playing to his base, by calling out an enemy politicians, whose in large respects, playing to his base.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: El Barto on February 25, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Yeah, Newt's far too tactless to ever be president.  Although, it's quite possible that being completely tactless is a selling point nowadays, just like being an idiot was during Bush's term. 
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on February 25, 2012, 03:37:01 PM
Yeah, Newt's far too tactless to ever be president.  Although, it's quite possible that being completely tactless is a selling point nowadays, just like being an idiot was during Bush's term.

But I thought Newt was trailing?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Rathma on February 28, 2012, 12:29:30 AM
A liberal American Jew criticizing Israel. Nothing new here!
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 05, 2012, 12:48:27 AM
A liberal American Jew criticizing Israel. Nothing new here!

I didn't know Jewish organisations accuse Jews who oppose destroying Palestinian's homes to take their place of "self hating" https://youtu.be/QNE4jEBMFf4
It occurs to me that a girl like that holds her convictions against so much expected backlash must have family history that suffered from the Lebensraum ideology which was implemented after the German invasion of Poland.
Question to Adami and SD: How do you guys feel about non-Zionist Jews?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 05, 2012, 08:05:47 AM
@ That video: Yeah, I know about that girl, she's a nut (even though I agree with her on some level, which is unfortunate).

@ The question: That is a good question. Personally, I don't really care if someone doesn't support Israel unless their not supporting means they also actively oppose it, like the Israel Apartheid Week folks that were at my school a week ago. I want peace to happen, but I'm of the opinion that it can't come from each side still badmouthing one another. And I mean sure, it applies to Zionists too, particularly the sort that do want the continuation of settlements (I don't support settlement), but people who sympathize with and champion the Palestinian cause are not exempt.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 05, 2012, 02:36:00 PM
You and I are so incredibly different. I don't find that girl to be a nut at all, I credit people like her for the last ditch efforts of keeping the Jews a separate entity from the Zionists and thus struggling against staining the Jewish people entirely with what is basically a racial militaristic movement.
You "agree with her on some level" and you don't support settlements but you think voicing and spreading this opinion classifies as betrayal to your people, did I get that right?
You and I are so incredibly different, not only cause we're on the exact opposite sides of the conflict but also on the aspects of willingness to severely criticize my side when they're being assholes, as opposed to the "Eh what you gonna do, shit happens" attitude, which you certainly wouldn't be taking if the shoe was on the other foot. I surely would be more critical of my side if I was you, especially if you are on the radically more powerful side of this conflict. This is the period of time that people would look back upon in a hundred years and go "This man stood up for the weak of his enemies when he didn't have to".
I believe that a major part of a people's humanity dies when they start truly believing they're naturally superior to others. Anything goes when you get there.
Accept my apology in advance if you see this as some sort of personal attack but it's really not, it's me venting to the only person I know that represents a way of thinking in regards to a subject that I feel strongly about. I also share it cause I find you civil and mindful + I'd be a colossal douche if I went on thinking it without saying it to you.
El Barto once said about P&R discussions that ".. as long as we admit there's a bit of hypocrisy in us all". I've come to terms with that in regards to all my Political thoughts. I'm on no high horse here.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 05, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
...No, I meant in the sense that I personally know her, and I know from personal experience that whether I agree with her or not, that girl is nuts.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 05, 2012, 07:41:24 PM
Oh okay, Cause you said "I know about that girl", I thought you just found the news online like me.
Nut she is then!
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 07, 2012, 11:23:16 AM
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm all for peace, but when you make it about what one or the other party did (notice that I don't bring Hamas into this) and couching it in rhetoric rather than looking for communication, that's when I think it ceases to be about peace. Like with this whole Apartheid Week thing that came to my school a week or two ago, it quickly went from "let's criticize Israel policy while promoting peace" to simply "let's list all the reasons Israel sucks." And I know Israel's done some pretty bad stuff, and neither I nor Adami will argue against that, but so have the Palestinians. Peace is about understanding, not about being righteous victims or assigning blame.

Also I don't view Zionism, inherent to its nature, as being racist. What it has become is racist, but let's separate that from the sort of Zionist ideal I or someone else might hold. I don't believe Israelis are superior to Palestinians, I just want for both states to coexist peacefully. That's partly why I like Salam Fayad's idea that neither side should unilaterally declare statehood or work it out through negotiations, but allow it to emerge gradually on its own through strong governance and economic development. I like the idea of Jews (as an ethnoreligious and national identity, not as a strictly religious one) having a country of their own, as much as I do for Palestinians.

And now, for a little bit of a lighthearted take by Jon Stewart:
https://www.hulu.com/watch/336830/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-words-of-warcraft#s-p1-sr-i1
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 07, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
notice that I don't bring Hamas into this

I think you'd have every right to. Let me share some thoughts, to me Hamas is a gorilla warfare resistance group to the occupation of Palestine, they're just that and it's all there is to them, they're ridiculous when they think they can be politicians but they went for it and they won by popular vote. One Palestinian guy told me in Abu Dhabi "U.S and Israel gave us a go at democracy through elections but punished us for what we chose. Why did they even let us go through with it? And now even the people who initially voted for Hamas can't stand them anymore due to the horrific living conditions people have come to in Gaza under the Israeli blockade, with you guys making it easier for them of course", his last line was referring to Egyptians and I remember that conversation so clearly cause I was very embarrassed -like most Egyptians still are- for our role in the blockade.
But Hamas gets their popular strength through Israel, no doubt about that. People wouldn't vote for them and put up with all their crap if they didn't signify the last symbol of dignified Palestinian defiance. The occupation is still in living memory and realistically speaking; this is still about freedom.
It's also why most Arabs view them as more legit than PLO. As a government that came by popular vote or a gorilla resistance movement that never had new ideas or changed their minds about anything.
I personally want Hamas gone SO THINGS CAN MOVE THE FUCK ALONG FROM THIS POINT and I think the only way to do it is for Israel to show more compassionate appeal and peer-to-peer approach for co-existence. Also as long as Jerusalem is under sole Israeli control; Hamas or other groups that will emerge after will keep fighting. Jerusalem is a holy city for me as well but I frankly hate it with passion for all the blood that's been shed for it.

Also I don't view Zionism, inherent to its nature, as being racist. What it has become is racist, but let's separate that from the sort of Zionist ideal I or someone else might hold. I don't believe Israelis are superior to Palestinians, I just want for both states to coexist peacefully. That's partly why I like Salam Fayad's idea that neither side should unilaterally declare statehood or work it out through negotiations, but allow it to emerge gradually on its own through strong governance and economic development.

That idea is very unrealistic to me since:
- The Israeli right -which we have only been dealing with for as long as I remember- will hear it out and then say "Haha where did you get your stash? That's quality stuff".
- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!
I keep going for too long and I keep going back and clipping to keep from entering the tl;dr realm.

And now, for a little bit of a lighthearted take by Jon Stewart:
https://www.hulu.com/watch/336830/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-words-of-warcraft#s-p1-sr-i1

 :lol Hilarious but also with a lot of truth. At least in the Iranian and American fronts. But why would the current Israeli government be waving a war card to win the upcoming elections? I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on March 07, 2012, 07:43:21 PM
Who don't I like?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 07, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
notice that I don't bring Hamas into this

"U.S and Israel gave us a go at democracy through elections but punished us for what we chose. Why did they even let us go through with it?

Honestly I'm as embarrassed about that as you seem to be. Not that Israel didn't have good reason to be wary about Hamas; Hamas did follow up their electoral victory with a new round of intifada. But still, the point isn't missed on me and it's a damn shame it turned out that way.

- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!
I keep going for too long and I keep going back and clipping to keep from entering the tl;dr realm.

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

As for the Israeli right bit, yes I totally agree, and that's exactly the perversion of Zionism I'm talking about. I think that's the problem with Zionism in Israel that causes everyone in the world to hate it collectively; this messianic Zionism belonging to the religious right has ruined it for everyone, particularly those of us who believe in mutualism and pluralism. This is also pertinent to the issue of Israel being in an election cycle: as long as the right can convince Israelis of the present and clear danger that besets them everyday, they can win by merit of a security issue. It's like how Republicans here in America win elections by calling on such boogeymen as Communists and terrorists.

I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.

That's a much more recent thing. Adami will be the first to tell you that the Israeli left has been largely silent in the past, basically because they have zero influence politically.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 07, 2012, 07:49:07 PM
Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on March 07, 2012, 07:50:06 PM
Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.


Oh yea, those guys are the bane of my existence. God damn.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 07, 2012, 08:18:48 PM
- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

I was trying to say Salam Fayad's idea wouldn't work in my opinion because the Israeli people are so far ahead as a civilization developing for 50 years while the Palestinians have been deprived of every mean to. Having them compete in an effort to prevail with modern world standards may sound fair but it's not. I think there should be two states and I think the Arabian Gulf countries should help Palestine get back on it's feet economically and I think the time during which should be filled with make-nice economical initiatives from Israel, that oughta do wonders imo.

Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.

Yep.

I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.

That's a much more recent thing. Adami will be the first to tell you that the Israeli left has been largely silent in the past, basically because they have zero influence politically.

So if it's a recent thing then Adami is in a minority of Israeli people who think Bibi has a very shitty approach to things? is the Likud most likely to win again?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on March 07, 2012, 08:24:32 PM
The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 07, 2012, 08:27:39 PM
Not a recent thing that they think it's shitty what the government does; recent that they have the balls to speak up about it.

- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

I was trying to say Salam Fayad's idea wouldn't work in my opinion because the Israeli people are so far ahead as a civilization developing for 50 years while the Palestinians have been deprived of every mean to. Having them compete in an effort to prevail with modern world standards may sound fair but it's not. I think there should be two states and I think the Arabian Gulf countries should help Palestine get back on it's feet economically and I think the time during which should be filled with make-nice economical initiatives from Israel, that oughta do wonders imo.

I may not know a lot about economics and trade, but I know that that actually shouldn't be an impediment. If Palestine and Israel open their borders to each other, the free exchange of ideas, people, and tech will close that gap pretty quickly. And hey, Fayad went to an American college, as did a number of significant Palestinian men in the world today. I think there was a big Palestinian name that went to University of Michigan actually, the most prestigious university in my home state.

The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.

Would you really say it's that extreme? I mean I'm genuinely unsure. What if Livni won instead of Bibi, for example?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 07, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.

Do the extremists play religious cards often with people? is that why they're the loudest?

And hey, Fayad went to an American college, as did a number of significant Palestinian men in the world today. I think there was a big Palestinian name that went to University of Michigan actually, the most prestigious university in my home state.

That's the kinda Palestinians I mentioned in my previous previous post that rarely go back to Palestine after that :lol
I see them here often too. They're the most successful Arabs I've seen in the U.S.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Progmetty on March 09, 2012, 04:06:24 AM
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_404h/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2012/03/07/Production/WashingtonPost/Images/US%20Israel.JPEG-03d88.jpg)

Bibi being a piece of kaka (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/netanyahus-references-to-holocaust-in-relation-to-iran-nuclear-threat-bother-some-israelis/2012/03/07/gIQAFC6GxR_story.html) on his visit couple of days ago.
Mainly I find his scenario shittier for Israeli people, to be compared to the helpless ghetto Jews and Bibi compared to the Jewish organization that asked the U.S to bomb Auschwitz during the war (how was that gonna make it better btw?) and the U.S being the neglectful U.S of WWII who didn't go to save European asses even though they had nothing to do with it.
Now you're gonna see comments like "still milking it", "guilted into war" and "the gift that keeps on giving". Things Israeli intellectuals were just celebrating turning the page on.
Quote
“It’s 1938 and Iran is Germany. And Iran is racing to arm itself with atomic bombs,” Netanyahu said.
Yehuda Bauer, a Holocaust scholar at Israel’s national Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, said Netanyahu’s Auschwitz analogy in Washington this week was “sheer nonsense.”
Bauer said, “to bring up Auschwitz is a cheap way of gaining public attention.”


Quote
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s linking of Iran to Nazi Germany evoked ringing applause this week at a gathering of a pro-Israel lobbying group in Washington. Back home, though, it drew some heavy criticism.

Why do I always get the feeling that the cowards at AIPAC don't give a flying fuck about Israel's dignity? or will for that matter? And why doesn't the Israeli left or moderates have the slightest representation in the U.S?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on March 09, 2012, 07:35:54 AM
No arguments here. Bibi is an embarrassment to (and the very bane of) the State of Israel.

And you're totally right about that "helpless ghetto Jews" thing. There was a time when Israel took pride in forming for itself an image of being very much separate from those cowardly, bookish Jews of Europe; we were the new Maccabees (granted I can see how after 1967 that's probably an image you don't want to express anymore).
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Rathma on March 13, 2012, 08:54:05 PM
Quote
“Today we have a state of our own. And the purpose of the Jewish state is to defend Jewish lives and to secure the Jewish future,” Netanyahu said to waves of applause.

Damn, Bibi must sound like a fascist dictator to non-Jewish Israelis.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on March 13, 2012, 08:55:23 PM
He's not a dictator, but he's certainly a fascist dick cheese burger.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: igotrhythm on May 25, 2012, 07:58:31 AM
I agree with Chomsky 100% and think you would have to be crazy not to. Israel invaded Lebanon for no reason just a few years ago; when was the last time Iran started a war?
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on May 25, 2012, 08:51:40 AM
Actually Israel invaded Lebanon because a Lebanese terrorist cell was throwing rockets over the border. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: igotrhythm on May 25, 2012, 08:57:39 AM
Actually Israel invaded Lebanon because a Lebanese terrorist cell was throwing rockets over the border. Just sayin'.

That's true, but let's get some perspective here. Invading an entire country because some bored Lebanese people were firing rockets in the general direction of some kibbutzim is like killing someone and his entire family because he tapped you on the shoulder. Also this isn't kindergarten; grow up and stop using the word "terrorist" or I'm gonna have to start calling you a "mean buttface."
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on May 25, 2012, 09:00:06 AM
Yes, you're right, we should get some perspective: bombing some kibbutzim is more than tapping a guy on the shoulder.

Also: terrorist.

Terrorist terrorist terrorist.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: igotrhythm on May 25, 2012, 09:03:56 AM
You're a mean buttface. Buttface buttface buttface. See how childish this is?

That's a crazy use of the phrase "bombing kibbutzim." When I hear that phrase, I can't help but feel it connotes more than shooting rockets in the direction of kibbutzim; I'm sorry for that. It sounds to me like you're doing actual damage to someone or something, when in fact not a single person was even injured from Lebanese rocket attacks. Understandably, because shooting a rocket over an international border is not exactly the most precise way of hurting someone, is it? It's a minor annoyance, an itch that Israel scratched by killing hundreds of people.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on May 25, 2012, 09:36:47 AM
Because Israel is better at keeping its people safe. By the way, I'd love to see you live in northern Israel for a week, love to see what you think of that minor annoyance once you're living in it.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: XJDenton on May 25, 2012, 09:39:39 AM
Igotrhythm, in a matter of 11 posts, you've already managed a 60% success rate in making them antagonistic and abrasive. Keep a respectful tone or you won't be staying here long.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Rathma on May 26, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
My Zionist Christian grandparents sent me this

https://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/

Quote
Let’s pray that the study of the Word of God has a powerful, personal impact on the Prime Minister and his family and each of his colleagues and guests.
Let’s pray that many Israelis would follow the Prime Minister’s lead and begin reading the Holy Scriptures again.
Let’s pray that Bible studies in people’s homes would spring up all over the Land of Israel.
Let’s pray that pray that more and more Israelis would develop a new and deeper curiosity about Bible prophecy, both the dramatic prophecies in the Scriptures that have already been fulfilled, and those that will come to pass soon, including the all-important prophecies about the Messiah.

The prophecies are coming soon guys.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on June 15, 2012, 05:34:31 PM
Damn my bigotous family. I know my views seem a little harsh at times, but nothing compares to the hate I've heard from others here. Americans should not speak for Israelis; Israelis should speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Adami on June 15, 2012, 07:00:10 PM
Damn my bigotous family. I know my views seem a little harsh at times, but nothing compares to the hate I've heard from others here. Americans should not speak for Israelis; Israelis should speak for themselves.

I agree. So shhhhh.


 :loser:
Title: Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
Post by: Super Dude on June 23, 2012, 08:42:23 PM
And speak of the devil:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/national/thousands-of-israeli-protesters-block-streets-in-tel-aviv-clash-with-police-1.443389

Israelis using their political voice, or at least trying to. It's nice to see, even if it did get cracked down on.

Also:

https://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/palestinian-prime-minister-fayyad-says-for-first-time-he-may-run-against-president-abbas-1.443385

Good for them. I like Fayyad's ideas.